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Dan Balz's Take

Perils of Immigration Issue May Cut Both Ways


Can candidates "out-Tancredo Tancredo?" (AP).

Few issues hold more peril for the 2008 presidential nominees of both parties than illegal immigration. Its capacity to inflame passions is matched only by its capacity to defy solutions. Both parties are on notice, but there is new evidence that the Republicans could be long-term losers in the debate.

Anger over illegal immigration has shaped the Republican nominating contest, as the last Republican debate in Florida amply demonstrated. Tom Tancredo, who entered the presidential campaign solely because of his opposition to illegal immigration (and who nonetheless has managed to go nowhere) summed up an early exchange between Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney as the two trying to "out-Tancredo Tancredo."

Immigration has played a less central role in the Democratic nomination battle, but nonetheless has shown its potency at candidate events and in at least two candidate debates. Pent-up frustration with illegal immigration is regular fare in the questions Democratic candidates hear at their town hall meetings.

Two Republicans, Giuliani and John McCain, have been forced to alter their rhetoric and their approach to the issue because of this anger. As mayor of New York, Giuliani was openly welcoming of immigrants and hardly hostile to illegal immigrants. He spoke out eloquently against anti-immigration sentiments at the time. Today, his immigration platform has been reduced to assurances that he can secure the borders.

New York Times columnist David Brooks recently took Giuliani to task in a perceptive analysis, arguing that he had abandoned his past position in pursuit of the presidential nomination. "Someday Rudy Giuliani will look back on this moment and wonder why he didn't run as himself," Brooks concluded.

When I spoke to Giuliani about this recently, he argued that his views have not changed, but the politics of immigration today require political leaders to adopt a different approach. "He's wrong because you can't, you can't, you can't possibly achieve expansion of legal immigration without ending illegal immigration," he said. "We're beyond the point where it's debatable any longer."

Giuliani said people who don't see are ignoring the obvious. "The editorials I see in the New York Times and the Washington Post [calling for comprehensive reform] are irrelevant," he said. "They can write them all they want. They're not going to get the reform they want. I think I can get them the reform they want, but you've got to do it in steps. And there's nobody that cares about immigration and understands the values of it more than I do."

To make expanded legal immigration possible today, the government must first restore public faith in government's commitment and capacity to shut down illegal immigration. "It reminds me of the things I had to do to reduce crime in New York," he said. "I first had to give people confidence that it could be done."

McCain's campaign has been damaged enormously by his support for comprehensive immigration legislation that would include a path for legal status for those undocumented workers in the country.

Chastened by what happened, McCain now tells Republican audiences he has gotten the message. He continues to urge reason and civility in the immigration debate, but he like Giuliani has put the issue of dealing with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants now in the United States on the back burner.

McCain, during a recent interview with Washington Post editors and reporters, said he has never encountered a domestic issue that creates "'such an emotional response" as illegal immigration. "I've never seen anything like this and it grieves me," he said.

But McCain said his experience with this issue has led him to the same conclusion as Giuliani. "The next president is going to have to convince people that he will secure the borders," he said.

Democrats are now beginning to recognize this. Democratic presidential candidates hear some of the same anger or resentment or worry about the impact of illegal immigration on small communities in Iowa or South Carolina or other states far from the U.S.-Mexico border.

Republican candidates like Giuliani believe Democrats have made themselves vulnerable on the immigration issue by not standing up strongly enough and in the case of several of them, by publicly supporting the idea of giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses.

Barack Obama underscored his concern recently when he said the party's presidential nominee must be ready to deal with a Republican onslaught on immigration in the general election. "We have to make absolutely clear that the Democratic Party is committed to stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into this country," he said aboard his campaign bus last month.

Anger may be shaping the presidential campaign debate, but there are signs that the immigration debate also is producing a backlash within the Latino community. The Pew Hispanic Center released a poll this week that showed Republicans losing ground among Hispanics.

"After spending the first part of this decade loosening their historic ties to the Democratic Party, Hispanic voters have reversed course in the past year," the authors Paul Taylor and Richard Fry write.

The poll found that 57 percent of Hispanics now identify with the Democratic Party compared with just 23 percent who call themselves Republicans. The gap between the parties have grown from 21 points in 2006 to 34 points today. Although a substantial number of Latinos see no difference between the parties on immigration, those who do see a difference overwhelmingly view the Democrats as doing a better job.

Mark Penn, Hillary Clinton's chief strategist, addressed the long-term implications of the immigration debate in his book, "Microtrends." By Penn's estimate, there were 16 million Hispanics eligible to vote in 2004 but only 8 million did vote, leaving 8 million prospective voters to be mobilized in 2008.

"Voters who want to keep immigrants out are already in the political system," he wrote. "But voters who want America to be true to its heritage of immigration are being awakened, mobilized and newly activated."

These are the competing realities in the immigration debate. Genuine anger and frustration among a part of the population and a potentially significant counter reaction within the Latino community over the political response. Failure to recognize and respond to both would be foolhardy.

--Dan Balz

Posted at 1:30 PM ET on Dec 7, 2007  | Category:  Dan Balz's Take
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Comments

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I thought that i could have a decent, honest and respectful conversation with you on this subject, but i guess, it can't be done, and i am mistaken.

Firstly, they are not "Wet". They are or you can refer to them as Latinos or Hispanics. Please respect yourself for the Lord's good name.

Secondly, it proves that you have no idea what you are talking about when you said that there would be a line around the block. Indeed, there is a line around the block, but it is a line composed of people, i guess, you won't approve of. Did you even read what i wrote in my previous post? Or maybe your English comprehension has been impaired by all the drugs you've been doing?

Thirdly, i have been doing concrete for 30 years my friend, and i have alway hired my employees. The last interview is always with me because i need to shake the man's hand and look him in the eye, and distinguish those who are full-of-it and those you can man a tough job. But i guess you don't know this kind of human behavior because you are just full of hate for everyone.

Finally, there are plenty of pools being built here. This last Friday, we poured 2. See, you are just lazy. Nothing more, and nothing less. Put your crack pipe down and go to work.

PS: this is the last time i reply to your nonsense. I just can't talk to you because your heart is full of hatred.

Posted by: collant1963 | December 9, 2007 9:19 PM

And my Uncle is Mickey Mouse, my Cousin, Speedy Gonzalez!
While I'll admit after looking in the Local Job Listings, that Vegas does seem to offer competetive Wages, anyone Advertising $30/Hr. would have a very long line of Applicants!

Then, anyone Employing more than 50 Workers in a Construction Environment, would have too much on the line to Hire any "Wet" knowingly!

See, BS Artist, they contract out Subs, and the Illegals would be with them!

Shame there were no Pool Contractors advertising, I'd have considered the Move!

Posted by: rat-the | December 9, 2007 8:22 PM

Rat-the: I have a small company (156 employees) in the Las Vegas area and i pay taxes on every single worker whether he is legal or not. As aforementioned, i have 23 openings (entry level), i pay $30/hour + benefits + 6 months training, and i have not had one single Caucasian who is willing to man a tough job. No Micheal or Johnny or Sean have showed up to fill these positions. Am i going to wait for them? No. Am i going to drive around in the Las Vegas area and beg them to come work for me? No. Am i paying a very competitive and fair rate? Absolutely yes. Am i willing to hire an undocumented alien? Yes. If he shows me an SSN# (even though it's bogus), shows up in time, works hard, and respects my clients, i will hire him and he will find a paycheck and respect in my establishment. That is the bottom line.

As i said it in a prior post, i will hire illegal aliens, and they will find work, respect, and a paycheck in my company. It is not up to me to go around and enforce the laws that the federal government fails to enforce. I am not going to verify if their papers are legal or bogus. I have neither the expertise nor the time to do that. I am not an INS or ICE, or IRS or federal employee. I refuse to do their job. I am a businessman, have been for more 30 years now, and I don't want to be deputized to do their the job of the federal government. That is my bottom line.

Moreover, your argument about the construction job market is not true everywhere. In the Las Vegas area, correcting for inflation, construction workers are earning more now than they have ever earned in past. I am aware that in some states, the job market is cold than in others, and that might affect salaries negatively. However, if you move to a state that is in full economic growth, you will earn more than what you are earning now. In my 30 years in this business, i've moved my company more than 5 times looking for the hottest market, and thank god, i found it in the Las Vegas area. And in my 30 years in the business, i have also learned to differentiate and distinguish a hard working man from a lazy one. It is up to you to chose which one you are going to be.

Posted by: collant1963 | December 9, 2007 5:39 PM

collant-YOU need to stop pretending you know what people say, and pay attention to what they are saying!

My "Beef" is with The EMPLOYERS, and with Government Officials that allow the criminal Employers to have the Millions Large Criminal Enterprise they do!

The Only other People I have a gripe with, are the La Raza Racists who openly declare their contempt for me! In that case, THEY started the beef!

BTW-Don't think your Irishness is going to help you too much against this Part Irish person too quickly! See, I am a part of the financially destroyed Construction Industry as well! I have serious resentments because it affects me directly!

Many People I know in similiar Jobs(Dry Wall for example), make less now, than they did in the Seventies!

But AGAIN, I blame the Reps., and the Criminal Tax Dodging, Benefit denying, age suppressing Employers!

Posted by: rat-the | December 9, 2007 3:06 PM

Oh really rat-the...and i suppose your grandfather landed on Plymouth Rock! I am not going to dignify your insult with an answer except that i am a bit dyslexic...are you going to make fun of that? That would not surprise me. My Irish bleeding heart would love nothing more then to spend a couple of minutes with you and teach you correct manners the hard way. But wait, you are just a little coward lowlife hiding behind his computer screen...damn i forgot that.
Let me tell you something rat-the, you represent hate and despair, and all you thrive on is fear. Your mantra is "let us scare the bejesus out of them and they will get in line." News flash to you, no one has ever won anything by promoting and cultivating fear. And even the American people is not with you sweetheart. Poll after poll, the American people is for some kind of comprehensive immigration reform. Just cool it and go get a job, or even better, put on the uniform and go do your duty as many of us have done.

Posted by: collant1963 | December 9, 2007 1:01 PM

LOL! Coolant, eye don't thing Englesh isn't youare nativity lankange!

Posted by: rat-the | December 9, 2007 4:21 AM

What liberals are you talking about Deamsmith and those you think like you? I am as conservative as it gets and have been since i voted for Goldwater in 1964, but i am not a bigot. The way you talk about illegal immigration is not innocent. You are trying to scare the folks by using words such invaders, invasion, bady-anchors and so forth. You and those who think like you thrive on controversial arguments and insulting people. You cowardly hide behind your computer screens and use racist and bigoted language, and you dare call useful a conservative! You and those who think like you ain't nothing more than pure low-lives.

And don't you think for a second that you or those who think like are conservatives. Because you ain't and you will never be and will never accept you among us.

Posted by: collant1963 | December 9, 2007 12:20 AM

Its interesting how the liberals can look down their snotty little noses, and call me a RACIST, but if you suggest that they SPONSOR a nice illiterate, illegal immigrant family of nine they FREAK.

Posted by: deansmith | December 8, 2007 6:36 PM

infinity555-Two things:

You forgot to include the Mexican Revolution. That caused so many of the Mexican Americans we assimilated to come here!
The current government of Mexico, is the Government that has always had, all of the Land it still has! And all of it, was taken away from the Previous Government of Mexico!

Then, Everyone should realize, the US Government, and the Citizens of the US, expanded the Plains Fort, by Comanche and Apache defeating Fort, west!

Mexico never had control of the Land. The Indians did! WE then brought in Water Wells, Cities, and built what opportunistic Invaders want to steal, or invade, RATHER THAN BUILDING THE SAME IN THIER SORRY COUNTRIES!

Posted by: rat-the | December 8, 2007 4:06 PM

Always I hear about the free movement of people coming to America. That their was no such thing as illegal immigration? Back then there was no need for such laws, until the US population spilled over and we became a nation of 300 million and climbing. In the past we didn't have energy and water shortages? Our highways were not the jammed mess as they are today and prisons not to crowded to overflowing. Then we have the old, tired diatribe, that the Indians are the real Americans? To those interested, my ancestors came from Russian-Alaska. My Great, Great grandfather who was a Danish Whaling Captain, co-inhabited with a Inuit female and had three children. She committed suicide and only found out about his children from a Southampton Ships Chandler and orphan papers sent to him. So I suppose I belong to the true legal residence of this great country. But then who are the truly legal residence of these Americas? The French King? The Spanish throne or German King George III of the British occupation? But then who are the legal inhabitance of Italy? The ancestors of the Etruscans, or the invading armies from across the Steppes? Who are the real English people? The Norseman who came to the coast communities and pillaged and raped, or the Celts or Saxons who settled on the Island.? Then their was the Roman legions who brought culture and the arts to the warrior tribes of the Iceni, conquering for a time the lands.
My guess none of the above?

For those people who believe that the White People are the predators in the United States. Remember that throughout history men have conquered and occupied foreign lands, from the beginning of time? The Romans conquered Britain in the 2nd Century and even the native Americans slaughtered each other, for horses, women and children and the possession of land.

As crude as it was the Pilgrims brought the elements of English Common Law, and therefore lived by its statutes. Without laws we would not have seen the civilization that exists in this great and wonderful country?

We did not cross the border, the border crossed us?

This slogan requires that we go back in history to the time before and during the presidency of James K. Polk. Present-day Texas was then a part of the Mexican state of Coahuila-Tejas. The Mexican government had invited settlers to that area. In 1835, the people in the northern section of Coahuila-Tejas revolted against the Mexican government and, in 1836, after winning the Battle of San Jacinto, declared themselves the Independent Republic of Texas.

Polk was president from 1845 to 1849. Polk and the Congress wanted to include Texas in the United States. In fact, Congress had made the decision to annex Texas even before Polk was sworn into office. There were various reasons for wanting Texas. (1) There was a fear or expectation that Great Britain or France would claim the territory if America did not. (2) American settlers were already moving westward by wagon trains. Some settlers, especially those in the Independent Republic of Texas, assumed they would one day be a part of the United States. (3) The concept of Manifest Destiny--that America was destined to extend from ocean to ocean--was used to justify the acquisition of more land.

Historians generally agree that Polk manipulated Mexico into war over the ownership of Texas, and that Mexico had a weaker military and a disorganized government. However, Polk had offered to purchase Texas and the present-day areas of New Mexico and California (in the manner of the Louisiana Purchase), but Mexico turned down the offer. Nobody can blame a country for defending its borders but, in trying to understand current illegal immigrant attitudes, it must be stressed that Mexico could have avoided war and loss of life.

The Mexican-American War was fought from 1846 to 1848. It ended with the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. America obtained present-day Arizona, California, and New Mexico; as well as sections of Colorado, Nevada, and Utah. And, the Texas border was extended to the Rio Grande River. These lands represented 55 percent of Mexico's territory. What seems to be overlooked by illegal immigrant advocates is that America also paid 15 million dollars to Mexico for war damages incurred by Mexico.

Another overlooked historical fact is the American acquisition of the Oregon Territory under Polk's presidency. Polk was able to negotiate a treaty with Great Britain in which present-day Oregon and Washington were brought under American jurisdiction.

Do illegal immigrants, most of whom never graduated from high school, really understand the history of the Mexican-American War? Or is this common knowledge in their culture? Or is the protest slogan being fed to them by politically astute activists and protest march organizers? What about illegal immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador, or Ecuador? The United States did not conquer or purchase any lands from those countries. The border-crossed-us slogan can be applied only to Mexican illegal immigrants. This creates a political and social division between two types of illegal immigrants: Mexican and non-Mexican. Or, it cancels out the legitimacy of the slogan.

If any country has legal possession and a deed to these Americas, it has to be the different American Indian tribes. However, even those are attributed to have originally entered through the Bering Straights have limited jurisdiction to real citizenship. Outside of that the Royal country of "Spain" incarnate could also add a mechanics lien in the way of ownership. But not anything below the Southern border, as they are the indigenous to that longitude and through intermingled with a few Spanish invaders have little if any possession rights?

Posted by: infinity555 | December 8, 2007 3:43 PM

Yup, those darn Mexicans just won't assimilate and they will destroy the American way of life. Ho hum.

Oh, no, we are being overrun by fecund papists, ... er, um, ignorant Germans, ... the Chinese hoards ... oh, my, those nasty Jews and now the horrid Mexicans.

Sorry, just had to get two hundred years+ of silly racism out of my system.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c144/duke1676/immigration-history.jpg

"Illegal" is not a noun.

Cheers.

Chris

Posted by: cbv123 | December 8, 2007 3:38 PM

Pro-illegal immigrant advocates seem to come with one of two belief systems: Compassion for the poor of the world or supporters of necessary cheap labor. Either way, they believe most illegals are only trying to support their families and are not breaking any other laws besides breaking into our country.

May I remind you that nearly EVERY illegal who works in the U.S. is breaking some kind of tax laws by committing identity theft, using made up SSNs, or being paid under the table. Each of these actions hurts our country, and identity theft could seriously affect YOU. If I committed one of these crimes I could be serving 1-5.

If we are to consider a path to legalization for those who have been here for many years and have not broken any of our OTHER laws, we need to remember there are many laws on the books besides illegal entry.

Posted by: the_mohlengrafts | December 8, 2007 3:13 PM

LOL!
BSTANMAN-Try "Shout" for that "Ring around the Collar"!

Hey, Infinity555!-

YOU FORGOT TO INCLUDE: HR:1940-BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP ACT!

Only problem, IT has been collecting Dust on the Worst Speaker of the House's Desk!

9 out of 10 Americans, DO NOT approve of Nancy Pelosi's Congress!

Golly Gee Tennessee, I wonder WHY?

Posted by: rat-the | December 8, 2007 2:57 PM

Of course there are racists, bigots on both sides of the illegal immigration invasion. Nothing has really been attained in three decades and unlikely to show any headway in future Congresses. Whatever side of the fence you stand, it should be remembered this is not about a persons skin color, race or religion. It is everything, completely and utterly about Americas economy. As Citizens and legal residence lose their jobs to foreign nationals, who is going to buy products. The globalist, open-border, free trade agreement has become a nightmare, as more and more padlocks seal off dead and abandoned factories and industrial businesses. Outsourcing has become a pestilence of the International globalists, as their true agenda of the free-movement of illegal foreign labor. Read the British and European newspapers to see of the unrealized consequences of large volumes of cheap foreign labor. Under EU rules countries within their treaties have no choice in the matter of being forced by free market mandate, to accept cheap foreign labor. Then ask the English people what they think? Continental France is a good example of upheavals to come in our own nation. Yes! of course there are racists, but not 70 percent of the American taxpayers who are genuinely furious and frustrated.
Incidently, the pro-illegal foreign national people, scream racism and are able to silence average persons cringing in stygian corners from offering their opinion. Like me in the 1980's was hist with a frozen can of soda, outside the Federal building in Los Angeles. Those individuals that deny my right to "FREE SPEECH." is the TRUE RACIST!

In the coming Iowa Caucases and state primaries, we will see who has the real strength? The anti-Constitution entities who use the race card, to try and attain their objectives through threats and intimidation? Or the American people who see this incessent invasion as a serious danger to their future economy?

Posted by: infinity555 | December 8, 2007 2:57 PM

Why is it that racists are prone to writing in all caps?

That was meant as a serious question. Is it that their arguments can only be made by shouting invective and attempting to distort people's emotions? The fact that quiet, sensible logic doesn't support their hatred?

Racism is lodged deep in the human psyche, a memento of how humans as a species are tribal and visual-oriented. That base nature of man was something America has always strived to overcome on a broader level, despite pockets of resistance from the uneducated, insecure and ignorant.

I'm just surprised at how many of them read the Post, as opposed to getting their news from cable TV or some crappy AM radio station that plays Rush or Sean Hannity or whatever other Neanderthals are out roaming the airwaves.

Go learn about physics or biology or art. Do something productive with your time. Infinity555 and (the appropriately named) rat-the: Educate yourselves, and you will see that you won't need to compete with unskilled laborers for work, and that the "illegal immigrants" you despise are helping all of us hope for a better future.

As Mill said (I paraphrase): chill out about it, unless it splashes in your eye.

Posted by: bstanman83 | December 8, 2007 2:36 PM

Once a individual such as Senator McCain (AZ) has lost the trust of the majority of the American people, when he pandered to (OBL) Open border lobby. He may have already have been marked for elimination from any chance of becoming president. It is very interesting to me, when a man with such a heroic background and stringent high ethics would become a stringed puppet of the pro-illegal immigration groups. The question of course is WHY? Co-Authoring the 2007 Comprehensive Immigration platform with Sen. Ted Kennedy and Sen. Harry Reid, makes me wonder why he would navigate the taxpayer-citizens in this country, with even more economic hardship from supporting the destitute people from foreign lands.

Once Washington failed, suddenly the laws of the 1986 Simpson/Mazzoli Immigration Control act is now in full swing, except that internal enforcement is limited to resources. Like most of the presidential candidates, these politicians have finally recognised that THE PEOPLE, are angry and frustrated with the illegal alien occupation and timely changed their tune.
Mitt Romney, Obama, Huckabee, Guiliani, Edwards, Hillary Clinton, Richardson, McCain and others are now scrambling to appease the majority of the American citizen population who are fed up with paying the tab for pariah employers.The annual cost to taxpayers is about $22 + billion a year according to Center for Immigration Studies and the tax burden will grow -- because 15 million more immigrants are set to arrive by year 2017 according to their latest research.

More than 10 million immigrants have arrived since year 2000; it is estimated that nearly 6 million are illegal. All told, the group of immigrants now account for 38 million at the moment according to the White House's own census bureau.

In any City, Community, Town, Village or hamlet throughout these United States (ICE) is finally raiding the factories, offices, work-places and corporate HQ of pariah business hiring cheap illegal foreign national workers.

(ICE) Immigration & Customs Enforcement can only do so much. They have limited resources and limited man-power. The "SAVE ACT" can elevate much of the frustration and anger of the American citizen. Use of penalties from predator employers of heavy fines and confiscation of business profits, would pay exceedingly well for internal enforcement?

Those politicians who are hard-liners, have been characterised as racists, bigots and xenophobes have a difficult time fighting against the mammoth corporate money machine, globalist open-border lobby or the non-profit foundations such as La Raza, Mecha, and many other extreme groups. However, real men like Rep.Tom Tancredo, Duncan Hunter or Ron Paul cannot attain the national limelight like the others who are backed by wealthy ultra-liberal entities, big business who wish to disrupt our Representative Democracy.

The saying' It's not over, TILL IT'S OVER, is alive and well? Although the American citizens and legal residents have defeated all underhand Senate bills, we are sure to find ourselves facing this predicament again. A bill called the "SAVE ACT" has arrived in the House, that could rigidly resolve any future enigma? Not perfect by any means, the bill Rep. Shuler Introduces Bi-partisan SAVE (Secure America through Verification and Enforcement) Act. All activists and anti-illegal alien advocates should support this bill, as the most ardent anti-illegal immigration groups have? Perhaps this our last chance before the general election to stop once and for all, this mass invasion to our shores. Emphasizing the principles of Attrition Through Enforcement. The SAVE Act (H.R. 4088) will broaden and enhance border security and interior enforcement. CONTACT YOUR (Public Servant) SENATOR OR CONGRESSMAN/WOMEN TO CO-SPONSOR THE "SAVE ACT."
ITS IMPERATIVE TO TELL ALL FAMILY, RELATIVES & FELLOW WORKERS TO SPREAD THIS URGENT MESSAGE!

Posted by: infinity555 | December 8, 2007 2:21 PM

bstanman-People like youhave their heads so far up there, you have Ring Around the Collar!

NO, People who come here illegally ARE NOT WELCOME OR WANTED!
Has it ever occurred to you WHY they might have HAD to come in Illegally? Infectious Diseases, Felonious Past, or nowadays Terrorist Intent, are just some of the reasons that come to mind!

This is NOT the 1800's. We are already branded by the World as overproducing Greenhouse Gasses, and places like Southern California do not have adequate supplies for the Population already there! VAST regions of Mexico are almost totally UN-DEVELOPED! The Population THERE is less than 90 Million! WE have 300 Million!
Of the 7 Billion People on this Planet, every single person who is not wealthy where they are, and many that are, would all want to come here! AIN'T HAPPENING!

What we are getting here is a double whammy! What began as a very STUPID slip by the Federal Government in enforcing Labor Laws, led to the presence of 3-4 Million Hispanic(For the Most part) Un-Documented Workers who we felt sorry for like bstanman, and others snivel about. When Legalized and unfortunately rammed through our system in a huge wave, they showed thier true Patriotism, as they became the Spear-head for a massive influx of their Families(Supported by an incredibly STUPID policy at INS of Familia Reunificado), and all their Friends!
What was a work force, became a massive COMPETING force! The exact same Garbage that they pull in Mexico and other Hispanic third world Nations, of barter and under the Table Employment and Trade, they are pulling HERE! No taxes collected is WHY the Countries like Mexico are hard pressed to supply the People with the infrastructures they need-Both elements deny each other, and Suffer because of it!
Saddest Part, the People KNOW IT! They, like their Corrupt system!
What they are finding here, are people willing to sell out their own, to help them abuse us!

Folks, it is just this simple-Enforce the Labor Laws and require Payrolling and accountabilty of every single Business enterprise! The Employer saves, but the Community Pays! An Employer, and I mean even the disabled Homeowner just needing his yard mowed, needs to make sure the person working has a legal right to!
An INDUSTRIAL TEMPORARY HELP, with DOCUMENTED, INSURED, PAYROLLED LEGAL WORKERS, is just a Phone Call Away! There is NO excuse to look for or use an invader in this Country!

The Double Whammy-An Un-Documented Labor Market destroying wages and cheating our communities of very needed revenues that prevent our communities from meeting the demands, and a Magnet for Illegal Sovereignty Stealing Invaders to infiltrate a Country that cannot accomodate the unchecked flow!

One leads to the other! Enforce the Labor Laws! Do NOT help contribute to the destruction of your own Communities! Get our Wages up to a level, we can afford to drive with $3 Gasoline!

Then, when it is only a Group out to promote their own doing it, we will know them for their TRUE Purpose and intent:

La Invasora, and Reconquista! But, for God's sake, STOP HELPING THE ENEMY!-You are Hurting your Countrymen!

BTW-Somebody talked about a few generations ago...

A few generations ago Santa Anna Massacred many great men at the Alamo, and we were in Mexico City drawing up our Borders!-And paying compensation for the Land we aquired!

Posted by: rat-the | December 8, 2007 12:48 PM

What a bunch of racists we have in the Republican candidates. Let's not beat around the bush. Racists.

I thought the Civil Rights movement killed off these sorts of sentiments, but much of what the Republican candidates and many here are saying sounds better suited for the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1885 or the intelligence tests and skull measurements that Jews and Greeks were subjected to in the 1910s. Appalling.

Immigrants always have been and remain the lifeblood of this country. That goes for legal and illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants aren't criminals or cheaters. I studied with many of them (often from Russia) at an Ivy League school. Rather, it was draconian and economically detrimental measures passed in the wake of Sept. 11 that forced people who wanted to remain here and study legally to skirt the law. I would have done the same, and so would the Republican candidates and posters above, if arbitrary fate hadn't led to their being born on this side of the border.

This country depends on immigrants of all stripes for its population and economic growth. Ironically, the Post has a story today about the economic harms that come from clamping down on illegal immigrants (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/07/AR2007120701889.html).

Illegal immigrants do the work no native-born American wants to do, and they do it well. They are our nannies, landscapers, painters, cooks, waiters -- and friends, lovers, engineers and bosses. They are the same as you and me, only they actually worked to get to this country.

These are people who want desperately to be here to work hard and make their lives better. In that sense, they're more "American" than the half-witted, lazy rich (or middle-class or poor) native-born Americans who attend prestigious prep schools, write in this forum, or run for president.

The economy is a growing concern for many Americans, and it is the worst demagoguery and lack of thought to blame it on "illegals stealing our jobs." Immigrants create jobs. They usually do the work others wouldn't condescend to do, and in doing so they create more purchasing power and possibilities for future wealth generation in the US. In taking on menial labor, they also "free up" the rest of us to be professionals, teachers and artists.

The real threat to American jobs is the globe's rising totalitarian mercantilist regime, China. America sends $300 billion to China unrequited each year in the form of a trade deficit, in addition to the billions in foreign direct investment offered up by investors. In return, China allows almost no goods from America; this week, Hollywood films were banned until at least February to support the domestic film industry.

But beyond that, the Chinese state, in its rush to sustain unprecedented economic growth to keep the Chinese people from criticizing the authoritarian one-party state, subsidizes energy for factories (the biggest expense in manufacturing) and strong-arms foreign companies into basing production there, denying them access to the Chinese market otherwise. The state provides protectionist legislature, subsidies and flouts environmental and labor protections to further encourage rabid manufacturing growth.

This results both in the Chinese people, affluent and content, being less concerned about their unfree political system, and in the rest of the world -- especially poor and unstable states like Pakistan, Bangladesh and many African nations, where textile production once existed before China ramped up production after the US removed quotas on Chinese textiles -- suffering. With world growth at 5% and China's at 11%, somebody has to take the hit. And America does too.

The WTO's rules are flouted on a daily basis by China, and it will continue to grab swathes of other countries' economies until they introduce the same sort of protective measures that China employs. Doing so is not a violation of free-market principles; there's no free market when goods are allowed to flow only one way. Instead, we have colonial-style mercantilism, and the distortion of the balance that results is what is really causing economic uncertainty -- not the men and women who risk their lives to immigrate and improve their lot in the US.

It's appalling and deleterious to the freedom of all when the Republican candidates -- or Post readers -- make immigrants their economic scapegoat. We don't need to encourage an informer culture, a la the Soviet Union. The real problem is China's mercantilist system, and in the absence of political action in the US, it is up to consumers to boycott the Made in China label, and to write US companies to tell them they won't buy goods produced in China. That's hard, since almost everything consumers buy on a daily basis is now made exclusively in China, but it's necessary.

But please, feel proud that immigrants, legal or not, chose to come to the US and live amongst you. Be nice. They need a break.

Posted by: bstanman83 | December 8, 2007 2:45 AM

The Republicans realized when they decided not to pander to the Hispanic vote, but to stand up for what was right for America, that the Hispanics would shift to the Democrats.

Sincethe Democracts, now DIP, Democratic Illegals' Party, has policies that are pro illegal, those policies means that Blacks get screwed.

The question is, will DIP lose more Blacks than it gains with Hispanics? And in the long term, Hispanics switch easily, Blacks do not. Hispancis could well switch back to the GOP and Blacks may be lost to the Dems for many long years.

Posted by: Bettybb | December 8, 2007 1:19 AM

A sub-human animal states, "American culture is as defective as Mexican culture." A sub-human animal can physically see the thousands of Mexicans fleeing to the USA from Mexico but still claim that Mexican culture is just as good as American culture.

The sub-human animal must be a Mexican bigot.

Posted by: atheist | December 8, 2007 1:06 AM

TO Essay0:

You wrote, "Consider Mexico. Its society is a total and utter failure because Mexican culture is a failure."

When i read this, i laughed really. The extremely funny part was when you said that "the Mexican culture is a failure."

Well, i am not a Latino. I am, in fact, a damn hotheaded and proud Irish, but what you said made me think about our culture. Let us take a quick look at our culture for a second, shall we:

1)We have the highest teenager pregnancy rate among the OECD countries; 2)We have the highest incarceration rate in the world; 3) We have the highest high school drop out rate among the OECD countries; 4) We have the highest rate of civilian casualties committed by fire arms in the world; 5) We have the highest rate of pornographic production in the world; 6) We have the highest HIV infection rate among the OECD countries; 7) We have the largest income gap between lower, middle, and upper class among the OECD countries; 8) We have one of the highest divorce rate among the OECD countries; 9) 57% of high school students cannot name one of the 3 countries we fought during WWII; 10) Most of our high school students cannot list the 3 branches of our government; 11) We have the highest obesity rate in the world (along with diabetes and cardiovascular diseases); 12) We have the highest rate of teen suicide among OECD countries; etc, etc...

Do you want me to keep going listing stats and figures about our culture. By these measures, i would not dare to qualify any other culture as a failure. We have a long way to go dude. Humility has never killed anyone.

Posted by: collant1963 | December 8, 2007 12:51 AM

All of those who want to post ad hominem attacks on other posters rather than take issue with their arguments should think before posting. Vitriol accomplishes little and may ruin the comments section for others who actually value an intelligent debate, the same thing we rightly accuse politicans and the media of often ducking.

Posted by: merganser | December 7, 2007 11:45 PM

THE WORST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD FROM A PERSON CLAIMING NOT TO BE RACIST OR SUPPOSEDLY NOT TAINTED BY RACISM IS:

DrColes wrote:
Illegal aliens in America have NO rights.

This kind of irrational thinking could only come from someone who has unfortunately let their lack of thinking speak for them.

To say that someone because of their legal status has no rights is to say the Constitution of The USofA has no FORCE. IT IS IN FACT TO DEFY THE CONSTITUTION AND TO SPIT ON THE FACE OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS.

OUR Government Recognizes Basic Human Rights regardless of citizenship or status! That is what makes it great.

Without this basic principle no human would have rights in time. One group or another would usurp power or dominion over another. This is not the way of the USofA.

Posted by: dextert | December 7, 2007 11:36 PM

A Mexican bigot wrote, "Failure as defined by whom? Neither the society nor the culture [of Mexico] is a 'failure' If it is, in your twisted little mind, I prefer to live here than in Jesuslandia with the likes of you."

Mexicans (including those who are 1st and 2nd generation Americans of Mexican ancestry) are the dumbest people in the world. Mexicans look at the millions of desperate people fleeing the cesspool of Mexico to enter the USA and then claim that Mexico is an economic success.

What kind of moron claims that Mexico is a success? A Mexican. A real dumb Mexican.

Here is the clincher. The Americans bombed Japan into radioactive rubble in 1945. Japan is a barren rock. Yet, the Japanese people used their bare knuckles to transform it into an economic superpower.

Now, look at Mexico. It has a bounty of natural resources. Yet, the morons known as Mexicans turned this bounty of wealth into stinking poverty.

Please. Someone. Anyone. Please tell me what, the hell, is the problem with the Mexicans?

Posted by: atheist | December 7, 2007 11:23 PM

hey rat-the, how old are you?

your posts are really immature

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 11:20 PM

To every nation, people, race, & tongue is given a time and a season to prosper, to gain glory, to be masters, to rule.

In every situation in their prime they throw off the things that made them great - a recognition of God and His hand in our Prosperity and Security, compassion for the well being of other humans regardless of their status, a desire to lift others to where they are, etc.

Our society or civilization isn't the first and isn't the greatest that has existed or that will exist, especially because of the transformation of our society in becoming greedy racists so quickly and so fast. Just a few generations ago we were so different and welcoming ... but know we have becoming greedy with our way of life.

We were doing so well. We were finally living up to the creed of our constitution which grew out of and implemented the simple principle that we have to this day from the Declaration of Independence -

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That all Human beings are created equal and have UNALIENABLE RIGHTS.

In other words that our society had reached it's peak when we lived by the principle that every human - whether a combatant of war or an "illegal" alien has certain RIGHTS as A HUMAN BEING in our society ... Because our FOUNDING FATHERS took those rights from the hands of men and placed them in the HANDS OF DEITY because the believed that a spark of divinity was in every human that made him different from the animals.

We use to believe that by our example we could transform this world in to a better place.

The more we give the more we will receive. This has always defined us.

The tides are changing. Like the Egyptians, Mayas, Aztecs, China Empire, Xerces, Babylon, we are in a decline.

Most of the population has become filled with animosity to others.

Return to compassion and show forth an example of a true Citizen of the USofA that weighs the plights of our Human brothers and sisters on the Scales of Justice and Mercy.

Posted by: dextert | December 7, 2007 11:12 PM

Actually Colorado, Ninny Peloser's failure is to introduce HR:1940-The Birthright Citizenship Act!

The Anchor Baby Scam continues to go on thanks to Democrat support!

Please America-Get her out of there!

Posted by: rat-the | December 7, 2007 11:08 PM

What a bunch of stupid sheeple you people are!!!

The problem is NOT immigration. The problem is Fair Trade Treaties that turn third world workers into disposable cogs in a machine.

No wonder they come to America to find jobs that pay living wages.

End Fair Trade and you end the immigration problem.

End Fair Trade and you also end the problem of our manufacturing jobs leaving the country.

Stop blaming immigrants for the problems caused by the fascist corporatocracy who continues to divide us using the issues of race, religion and life styles.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | December 7, 2007 11:07 PM

This argument from the right sounds very much like the conservative Christian arguments I grew up listening to between 1957 and 1965. Immigration is just another example of the self-righteous racism of conservatives.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Posted by: sherirogers | December 7, 2007 11:06 PM

Further on the comments of essay0:

Who are you to say "Consider Mexico. Its society is a total and utter failure because Mexican culture is a failure."?

Failure as defined by whom? Neither the society nor the culture is a "failure" If it is, in your twisted little mind, I prefer to live here than in Jesuslandia with the likes of you.

Guess what? People in the rest of the world live, work, love, play and enjoy their families without the "benefits" of having your arrogant "Westernization" crammed down their throats by military might or AK47 toting supremacists. The US is not the center of the universe.

Consider the US. Can we say its society is a total and utter failure because American culture is a failure? The only failure in the US is Nancy Pelosi's failure to rid our leaderships with the likes of your arrogant neocon, racist, Christian extremist "thought management"

Posted by: coloradodog | December 7, 2007 11:02 PM

Hey DrColes, sounds personal for you. Did your wife leave you for a Latino guy or something?

"Criminals! Criminals!" you shriek, since after all you're not going to get called a racist for demanding "justice."

By the way don't be so adamant about the purity of America's founders. Not everyone came over here to establish harsh religious cults. Many were just ahead of the law.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 10:57 PM

Criminals did NOT build America; Citizens and LEGAL immigrants built it. Illegal Aliens and Immigration is NOT the same thing. 80% of the American people want an end to anarchy! This is NOT a Democrat, Republican, Independent issue. It's an American Issue.

Illegal aliens are criminals, those who hire them are criminals and those who aid-and-abet them are criminals.

Illegal aliens in America have NO rights. We are required by law to arrest and prosecute, deport them. (Title 8 U.S. Code) To report illegal aliens call the DHS National Hotline 1 866 DHS 2ICE. (1-866-347-2523)

No, matter your political party affiliation, and setting aside your thoughts on issues. We all need to remember what it is to be an American Citizen. We need to make sure our elected representatives obey their Oath of Office and keep their Oath of Allegiance. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl Know whom you are voting for.

Posted by: DrColes | December 7, 2007 10:51 PM

Most Americans have never taken a course in economics. As a result, they are easily manipulatedMost Americans have never taken a course in economics. As a result, they are easily manipulated
==

And people who have taken he course and been indocrinated with economic thinking are a lot easier to manipulate, because they have been led to believe in the *reasonableness* of their own coming poverty.

After all, "gotta compete inna global marketplace," they all intone with hollow-eyed conviction.

"Supply an' demand!" of course.

"Uh, I b'lieve in lettin' the MARKETPLACE decide," they dutifully recite.

American greatness is ended.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 10:42 PM

My, my, my aren't we having fun demonizing Mexicans. Karl Rove and Satan are dancing in delight that Americans have found a new common enemy to rally 'round in the name of Jesus and Ronald Reagan.

Living in Mexico, I see a different perspective. I see human beings not the stereotype robbers, racists and killers some posters would want us to believe all Mexicans are. I live here legally and believe Mexicans in America should be there legally as well. I am treated well and respected for my character but not for being a Gringo. Thats a stereotype here I have to overcome.

For a Mexican to go work in Canada, he meets a simple, objective system of eligibility points. For a Mexican to go work in the US, he faces making an appointment three months in advance in sometimes far away Mexico City, paying $100 for an appointment sometimes only lasting five minutes as US inspectors have the right to deny a visa for any arbitrary reason.

Mexicans are tenacious, clever people. No wall, even a mined one as some of American "Christians" suggest, will keep immigrants out. It's supply / demand. As long as there is a demand in the US for cheap labor, the Mexicans will supply it. It's the same with drugs. As long as there is a huge demand in the US, it will be lucrative for Mexicans to supply them

Why don't we biometrically ID these people, document them and then tax them? Would this be a too simple solution that deprives the likes of Tancredo his racist bully pulpit and deprives the likes of Romney a Karl Rove dividing issue to help his campaign while illegals mow the lawn of his mansion?

Posted by: coloradodog | December 7, 2007 10:41 PM

The implication that the American economy with its 300 million citizens needs immigrants is a lie. Read "The Economic Fallacies of Desperate Foreign Labor" @ http://theclearsky.blogspot.com/#70709516354357493 .

Allow me to explain in detail.

Consider the United States. It has about 300 million citizens. Its gross domestic product (GDP) is about $12 trillion. The GDP per capita is about $40,000.

Suppose that we inject 300 million desperate Indians (from India) into the USA. Its population suddenly doubles to 600 million people. The GDP remains the same at $12 trillion. The GDP per capita falls to $20,000.

In this scenario, we assume a constant level of technology. Over time, the GDP grows rapidly as the economy absorbs the 300 million Indians. Eventually, the GDP reaches $24 trillion, and the GDP per capita returns to $40,000. (Actually, the GDP per capita will exceed $40,000 slightly due to the comparative advantage of the larger population.) Once GDP per capita reaches $40,000, the growth spurt ends.

The propaganda game that pro-immigation bigots play is the following. They shout, "Look at the tremendous wealth that 300 million Indians added to the American nation. The GDP increased by $12 trillion to $24 trillion! Wow! Awesome!"

What is the error in the reasoning of the pro-immigration bigots? Well, the total GDP is not the correct measure of your wealth. The correct measure is GDP per capita. Adding 300 million Indians did not increase your wealth or my wealth at all.

There is no economic necessity, whatsoever, for H-1B workers, illegal aliens, or an open border.

When a nation, like the United States, has a sufficiently large population (on the order of hundreds of millions of people), dumping hordes of immigrants into the nation offers almost no economic benefit. Indeed, in the short term and the medium term, a large number of immigrants actually suppresses wages and diminishes working conditions -- in both high-tech jobs and low-tech jobs.

A study by Harvard University demonstrated that illegal aliens from Mexico actually suppressed the wages of unskilled American labor by about 8%.

There is no economic justification for immigrants. Immigration can be justified on only ethical grounds. For example, the United States regularly offers political asylum to anyone who is fleeing dire political persecution.

How should we Americans deal with the flood of people from India, Mexico, and elsewhere? Washington should intervene aggressively in foreign countries that flood their people into the USA. A larger flood means a larger degree of intervention by us.

Consider Mexico. Its society is a total and utter failure because Mexican culture is a failure. To deal with this failure, we give the Mexican government a plan to Westernize Mexico. We order the Mexican government to implement this plan. If a Mexican politician obstructs this Westernization plan, then we aggressively punish the offending Mexican politician. We (1) freeze his assets (and the assets of his relatives) in the West, (2) declare him (and his relatives) persona non grata thoughout the West, and (3) deny him (and his relatives) any access to Western medical facilities even if such denial results in his death (or his relative's death). Further, we Americans will fund and promote Mexican politicians who are committed to Westernization. We will run Mexico like a colony. Of course, if Mexican drug smugglers enter American territory, the American military will pursue them -- even into Mexican territory. If the Mexican military interferes in our pursuit of Mexican criminals, then we kill the soldiers in the Mexican military.

P.S.
----
Most Americans have never taken a course in economics. As a result, they are easily manipulated by (1) lying, deceptive bigots in the pro-immigration groups, (2) lying, deceptive lobbyists for American companies, or (3) lying, deceptive American politicians who have been purchased by American companies or pro-immigration groups. Bigots, lobbyists, and politicians deliberately state economic lies in order to fool the ignorant American voter.


reporter, USA, http://theclearsky.blogspot.com/

Posted by: essay0 | December 7, 2007 10:30 PM

Mytwocents1 wears the lampshade today:

"Bethesdaboy is a punk and I would like to kick his A$$. I live in Falls Church, VA Bethesda punk. Lets meet up."
==

Dude, it's a blog. GET a GRIP.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 10:11 PM

Folks, back to correct some more BS!

As far as Taxes Terje2, People at lower incomes DO NOT PAY INCOME TAX, and their Subsidies FAR OUTWIEGH their Social Security Payments. BUT, that is not even the Issue! All the ones actually doing as Much, ARE LEGALLY HERE!

My Complaint, is about the Federal Government allowing an Un-Documented Job Market of Tens of Millions, that collects NO TAXES and draws the illegals to get the jobs that should be paying considerably more, and contributing at least ONE HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS, that we are NOT GETTING!!!!

All while destroying wage levels across the board causing lower tax revenues from all the Middle Class-or what used to be!

See, you cannot recess wages for an entire Construction Industry, and not then get people that should be working PAYROLLED Jobs in that industry, competing with every other one!

Then get something straight. I did not go into Mexico, and organize Protests to get Gringos the right to operate Businesses in Mexico WITHOUT having to have a Mexican Citizen Partner. I did not illegally invade Mexico at all!

They have come HERE and brought the War to us. Unlike some people, I realize that La Raza is the Enemy! There are many Hispanics who the La Raza types robbed their Homeland from and forced them here. If they get thier way, they will treat them as Gringos, NOT fellow Revolutionaries! See, it is a "Class" thing, and they know who is who!

Posted by: rat-the | December 7, 2007 9:27 PM

Bethesdaboy is a punk and I would like to kick his A$$. I live in Falls Church, VA Bethesda punk. Lets meet up.

Posted by: Mytwocents1 | December 7, 2007 9:24 PM

birvin9999 wrote:
"The Democratic Party cynically wants to register 15 million illegals as quickly as possible. "
==

In an astonishing turn of events, a Bush supporter has posted a lie.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 9:00 PM

The Democratic Party cynically wants to register 15 million illegals as quickly as possible. That's why no one in their right mind should vote for a Democrat - they've sold the country downt the river. They want it turned into Northen Mexico. Bush is just as bad, but luckily he'll be out of office soon.

Posted by: birvin9999 | December 7, 2007 8:53 PM

Whatever happens with illegals the bigots are going to lose. I have the evidence in front of me: a bag of goldfish crackers, labeled on the back with "Sabor Explosivo!"

Latinos make up a rapidly-growing part of our population. As time goes on you will see and read more Spanish, as well as more Vietnamese, more Chinese, more languages. You can scream and rant and demand that laws be passed to protect your ignorance but you're telling the tide to not come in.

I recommend punching a wall.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 8:42 PM

"There should be NO accommodation for any illegal immigrants.There should be NO accommodation for any illegal immigrants."

Perhaps if the Native Americans had employed that sentiment then, none of you would be here now.

The sad fact in all of the ranting over immigration, is none of the rants have anything to do with immigration really. Some are veiled, some are not so veiled bigoted attacks against non-white, Spanish-speaking persons -- including those who are multi-generation Americans.

The Bush administration and the GOP have confused you to believe that the Global War on Terror, 9/11, homeland security and immigration --legal or otherwise -- are all intertwined. So they told we need to build a fence, right away to keep the mongol hordes out (hey, if it worked for the Chinese, it can work for us! Just look at that great wall they have called the "Great Wall!"). The problem is the only border that needs to be secured is the one that abuts Mexico. The Canadian border is even more porous, but Canadians are -- um, I guess it's okay to say it -- mostly all white and Mexicans are -- gulp -- brown. Canadians speak English and French, Mexicans speak Spanish.

Mexican labor has been picking our fruits and vegetables, cotton and other fibers, working in our restaurants and other aspects of the service and construction industries for the last century, easily. Cesar Chavez organized the farmers workers in the 60s with a boycott of table grape growers, lettuce growers and more. Ask a border state gringo of a certain age what a "bracero" is. Here's a hint:

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html

[QUOTE]The occurrence of this grave situation coincided with the emergence of a demand in manual labor in the U.S. brought about by World War II. On August 4, 1942, the U.S. and the Mexican government instituted the Bracero program. Thousands of impoverished Mexicans abandoned their rural communities and headed north to work as braceros... More than 80,000 braceros pass through the El Paso Center annually. They're part of an army of 350,000 or more that marches across the border each year to help plant, cultivate and harvest cotton and other crops throughout the United States".
(El Paso Herald Post, April 28, 1956)... The program under which more than three million Mexicans entered the U.S. to labor in the agricultural fields ended in 1964. The U.S. Department of Labor officer in charge of the program, Lee G. Williams, had described it as a system of "legalized slavery."[ENDQUOTE]

President Bush's "guest worker program" is just another version of the Bracero Project.

As long as we can't or don't want to pick or cook our own food, clean our own homes, hotels and hospitals, build our own homes, mow our own grass, and so much more, there is a need for the men and women who will.

This subject is far too complex for the sophmoric "raise your hand" questions and answers, the shrill, racist debate that seems to pervade the GOP and the presidential politics. It's more than "do you support driver's licenses?" for immigrants.

The shame is that most of you are too gullible to do anything more than parrot the idiocy from Lou Dobbs, Tom Tancredo, and the rest of the fear-mongers.

Posted by: jade7243 | December 7, 2007 8:35 PM

I am amazed by the consistent use of the term "invasion". What hyperbole.

Last I looked, there is no army of armed Mexican occupying the USA, enforcing their rule with guns pointed at out heads Instead, the "invaders" are armed with leaf blowers, construction tools, dishwashing rags, and vaccuum cleaners... Get real.

The non-citizens who are illegally moving to and working in the US aren't here as some occupying army, they are productive workers who are often the most dynamic parts of the economy, revitalizing many decaying communities full of aged populations, and raising families who will become integrated into America society (just like previous waves of massive immigration -- Germans, Scandinavians, Dutch, Irish, Italians, French-Canadians, Jews, etc.)

The larger forces of history and economics drive these kinds of human migrations. The reality is that they are here because our economy needs them, because population movement is a constant part of history.

How will we pay for the costs of retirement and health care for an aging population without enough younger American born workers paying in? These immigrant workers are paying the taxes that will make it possible to keep our government solvent. They are a huge engine that drives economic growth and keeps our economy growing.

Yes, in an ideal world our government would have a progressive policy to encourage legal immigration (look at Canada, where the government has a very advanced legal immigration policy that actively seeks immigrants.) But without a government policy that understands the need for legal immigration, the powerful forces of economics and demographics will continue to draw millions to our country. Focusing on the "illegality" of any individual worker - or millions of workers - ignores the larger reality that drives this migration.

So sure, go ahead and round up and deport 12 million people - or hope to force them to leave my making employment impossible. (Assuming it could work, which it won't). When you manage to do that, watch the US economy atrophy, be prepared to see the price of everything from food to hotels skyrocket, pay the increased taxes to keep Social Security and Medicare viable, and see the collapse of whole communities where a vibrant immigrant population is keeping neighborhoods and cities alive.

Some invasion -- when the invaders perform the hard work, pay the taxes, and make our economy viable. (To say nothing of providing same damn good food, music, and cultural variety).

Posted by: terje2 | December 7, 2007 8:34 PM

I love the posters like rat-the .. Bush supporters whose views are so ugly and sick that readers automatically start to think the other way

We should call them coulteristas.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 7:57 PM

A Challenge to every Libbie who thinks I am being too hard on the Invasorios.

When you go into the next Convenience Store, or Mart that has the Spanish News Flyers-Get one!

Decipher it with a little common sense, or use a Translator. You will not have a hard time getting the Gist of what They are talking about.

The "News Flyers" are nothing more than information to help facilitate the INVASION! How to get Political. How to get Benefits. What to watch for. Etc., Etc...

I am ashamed at the arrogant complancency of my fellow Americans as Bordering Nations INVADE ours to ussurp our Soveriegnty! But, my anger boils over when they begin openly demonstrating and implying threats, and the Complacent Sheep bleat "We were all Immigrants once"!

Our Forefathers fought and many DIED to secure a land, their Mindless decendents are just handing away!

Posted by: rat-the | December 7, 2007 7:48 PM

1. I am a naturalized American Citizen, I am a LEGAL IMMIGRANT, I am one of them HISPANICS.
2. I have work my rear end off since I immigrated LEGALLY into this country.
3. I have obeyed the law at all times, I am married to a born citizen of this country, I have 2 children born in this country.
4. I have never been late paying all due state, property and federal income taxes.
5. I have never been on welfare or any other public assistance program, I was raised to believe hard work and sacrifice are the way to get ahead. I have never believed the government is responsible in any way shape or form for my wellbeing. I believe welfare is the opium of poor people.
6. I am fiscally conservative, I believe in personal responsibility and living within my economic means.
7. I have a B.S. in Engineering from a California State University. I strongly believe in education, my father was a high school teacher.
8. I believe all immigrants should learn to speak, read and write english, you live here now, english is the official language of this country, that does not mean you should discard any other language you know, be it chinese, japanese, spanish, german, french, etc, we live in a global economy, the bigger set of skills you have, the better off you will be.
9. I believe in securing the southern border, I am willing to pay higher taxes to do so, for national security reasons we can not have open borders. If it takes building a Berlin wall with watch towers every mile, mine fields, german shepards dogs, etc, so be it, do it, I will help pay for it.
10. I believe any illegal immigrant convicted of a criminal felony should serve time in prison and then be deported to his/her country of origin as soon as the sentence is served, no exceptions.
11. I do not believe in ethnic cleansing, mass deportations, breaking up families and persecuting people, I am not a criminal, being a hard working, law abiding, tax paying, LEGAL hispanic immigrant is not a crime, despite the fact that Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs, Tom Tancredo, Mitt Romney, Anne Coulther, Sean Hannity, Michelle Malkin, etc, and the rest of the "conservative republican" crowd is trying to portray us hispanics as such, the way they talk, we have become worse that the 7 plagues of Egypt rolled into one, we have become "the brown plague".
12. I am one of the 42% Hispanics that voted for George Bush and the republican party in the last election..
13. I will never, ever again vote republican for as long as I live, neither will my children or my wife. From now on and for as long as we live, we will vote for the democratic party up and down our ballot, even if we have to hold our noses while doing so.

jacaver

P.S. And to the bigoted republican mentioned above, the democratic party sincerely thank you for kicking me into their party

Posted by: jacaver | December 7, 2007 7:34 PM

maxbyte, your father could have maintained his law abiding status, saved the farm, and hired the Latinos to milk his cows LEGALLY had he just sponsored those four milkers with work visas from Immigration.

I'm so tired of hearing these stories that Americans won't do the work so businesses have to hire illegal aliens on the sly.

Coalitions of businesses would have more than enough clout to sway ongress (both Democrats and Republicans) to up the number of temporary work visas.

BUT ... like your father it was easier and cheaper to just break the law and pretend to be the victim.

Any Immigration Reform bill that does not hold businesses accountable for the health, housing and welfare of their undocumented workers is not acceptable. Its times that businesses stop lining their pockets while passing along their expenses to local tax payers.

Posted by: asmith1 | December 7, 2007 7:29 PM

It's interesting how Republicans have now seized on yet another anti-immigrant theme. Essentially, the failure of more Canadians, Brazilians, Central Americans, Filipinos, and others to move to the US is furthering the erosion of home values. Reason: immigrants mostly take the oldest apartments and single families at first, letting all other young families and retirees "move up" the housing ladder. So immigrants moving home or not coming here in the same large numbers as 2001-2006 is thus worsening home values for everyone else. I would like to see actual solid academic studies that prove this anti-immigrant sentiment. It's probably not easy to quantify but it makes a simplistic sound bite for a couple of news cycles.

Posted by: JosephCombs | December 7, 2007 7:09 PM

LOL!
No, No! We can't stand up to the Latinos. They will hold it against us.

We have had what 4 Wars with Mexico? The only ones who seem to have forgotten are most of the People in the US.

The reason the Mexicans coming into this Country are so far behind in their Studies, is quite possibly because that is ALL they are being sure to teach them in Mexico!

The US Stole the Southwest! Now, go get it back!

Aside from the recent betrayal of our Political Reps., I used to like the score:

US-4

Mexico-0

Keep it up Amigos, a Border with Guatemala and Belize would be a whole lot easier to control!

Manifest Destiny. Emminent Domain!

Posted by: rat-the | December 7, 2007 7:00 PM

Wow, it is interesting to see how angry so many readers are on this issue. Rather than an educational debate about the article's topic, you have used this to rant about your dissatisfaction with a highly emotional issue. Just keep in mind that politicians use this discussion because it creates such an emotional stir in many Americans (who are, need I remind you, immigrants). Were it truly a security issue something would have been done in Sept. 2001. It is a divisive tool to polarize us in an important moment in history, as this presidential race will be. But please, get informed on the topic, get to know the people who do your dirty work, the reasons they are here, and their countries' diplomacies that have brought us here and then try to make an objective decision.

Posted by: cecilpiz | December 7, 2007 6:44 PM

I am an owner of a small company that makes concrete and reinforced concrete in Las Vegas area. I Have a work force of 156 workers. I pay $25/hour plus benefits and training for entry level workers. My workforce is about 76% (118 workers) Latinos, about 14% (22 workers) African Americans, and 10% Caucasians (16 workers). 9 out of 16 Caucasian workers and 14 out of 22 African American worker are due to retire next year, in exactly 6 months. We have been interviewing potential workers to replace them. All of the candidates, but one, have been Latinos, even for the ground manager position (with a substantially higher pay). What do you want me to do? Stop working? Sell my company? Let's get real here folks.

And for full disclosure, 77 of the 118 Latinos workers are undocumented. They have bogus SSN #. As long as they show up to work in time, do their job properly, and respect our clients, I will hire them and they will find work and a paycheck in my company. It is not up to me to go around and enforce the laws that the federal government fails to enforce. I am not an INS or ICE or federal employee. I am a businessman and I don't want to be deputized to do the dirty work of the federal government. And let me tell you something, if undocumented workers are chased from this country, I will have to declare bankruptcy since our young citizens are too lazy and fragile to man tough jobs.

To those in the forum who, ignorantly, say that employers take advantage of cheap labor--i.e. illegal immigrants-- well, let me tell you that I am paying $ 5 more than my competition for this new openings, and no little Johnny or Michael have showed up to even interview. Of course, there are employers out there who do take advantage of the situation, but I doubt that this is the bottom line or even the major reason.

One more observation, I agree 100% with the person who says that if the Republicans alienate the Latino community, states like Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico would flip forever in the Democratic column. Well, I am a republican have been since i returned from Vietnam, but I am going to vote strict ticket Democrats in the next elections, and I can assure that the Republicans have already lost Nevada and Arizona and forever, and it is not due to Latino votes only. Many citizens like me would vote for the party that offers a comprehensive immigration reform. Think about it, if I have no workers who are willing to work for $ 30/hour, I will have to up my salary, which would make house/business construction projects more expensive, and those who are thinking about buying a new house would have to pay more. So, let think about this for second who is going to be affected: construction sector, developers, Realtors and real estate markets, and oh yes little Johnny or Michael looking to buy his first home.

Posted by: collant1963 | December 7, 2007 6:43 PM

THE ILLEGAL ALIEN PROBLEM IMPOSED ON U.S. IS SIMPLE!

DEPORT ALL UNDOCUMENTED RESIDENTS, LIKE THE TITLE 8 OF U.S. IMMIGRATION LAW SAYS.

EITHER DEFEND THE NATION LIKE IT NEEDS, OR CONTINUE TO ALLOW IT TO BE OVER-RUN AND DESTROYED.

YOUR CHOICE CITIZENS!

FREEDOM IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. EITHER DEFEND IT AND MAINTAIN OR OR LOSE IT.

NOBODY WILL DEFEND YOU IF YOU DON'T BECOME VERY PRO-ACTIVE.

Posted by: USDefender | December 7, 2007 6:29 PM

chrisfox8 - we are in agreement 100%. The illegal immigration issue is a non-starter. No one wants to side with the klan, nazi's and other micro minorities who spend their days posting on websites. During the last push for an immigration bill, some Senators commented that the number of faxes opposing the bill stalled their faxes and shut down their switchboard. Although true, it only takes about 5 simultaneous faxes to freeze up a fax machine... it's a myth.

Posted by: chesobe | December 7, 2007 5:58 PM

chesobe: nonsense. Whenever the talk turns to "porous borders" we know that racism is just beneath the surface.

Bigotry against Latinos is no more acceptable than against anyone else, and the people who assiduously place "illegal" before "immigrant" aren't fooling ANYONE.

And indications show that this is a losing issue for the bigots.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 5:53 PM

The illegal immigration debate is the last place in our society where people can be openly racist and not get called out as such. Latino immigrant bashing is the last politically correct racism left in our society. People throw terms around like "anchor babies" and "invaders" and "Mexicans" to refer to all Latinos in away that reeks of the "tar babies", "cotton pickers" or worst of our past. The passion that the immigration debate ignites in people is fueled 100% by racism and, as a response, the viceral reaction people have to racists. The internet just magnifies and legitimizes these remarks by hiding the writers and allowing old racist arguments to go unchallenged. Something to think about: if the internet existed in 1950... would there have been a Civil Rights movement or would the much larger racist minority that lived back then have simply shouted down Dr. King.

Do not be swayed by the tiny vocal minority that speaks for and represents no one other than themselves.

Posted by: chesobe | December 7, 2007 5:47 PM

What's racist about wanting the laws on the books to be enforced? I don't care if you're from Guatemala or Germany if you're here illegally don't let the door hit you on the way out. When you apply for a job and/or are hired you have to bring your social security card, picture id, and sometimes a birth certificate to prove that you're able to work but apparently the only people who are asked to do that are people who ARE citizens. Somehow millions of people managed to be hired without providing the paperwork that is federally required. If the laws on the books are enforced nobody will have to be deported; they'll go back home if they can't find work; an option that those of us who are home don't have. As for Americans not wanting to work, well somebody was doing those jobs before the influx of illegals. When I started work over 20 years ago the office cleaning crews were all Black. Then all Asian. Now all Hispanic. Did the Black folks just wake up one day and decide they didn't want to go to work anymore? Or did the employer just replace them with cheaper labor? Didn't the government just toss several million welfare recipients off of the rolls? They need jobs, can't just let them starve in the street. It's a known fact that higher paid employees get pushed out for cheaper labor all the time. Circuit City just did it. So why don't some of you think that there are employers who would rather pay an illegal or someone on an H1B who isn't in a position to complain about their pay or treatment because they're afraid of being turned in to ICE or having their visa revoked? We've all seen companies that lay off employees then turn around and give their under performing-borderline criminally negligent CEO a big fat raise or a huge golden parachute when they really screw the pooch and resign to explore other opportunities.

Also, earlier this year when it seemed that a mine shaft was collapsing every week those weren't hard working illegal immigrants who lost their lives in the shafts so American's do indeed do hard, dirty work. It's just that being born and raised in this country we know that $6 an hour isn't enough to support a house pet much less a grown person but employers are looking to cut costs and they usually start with labor. Most of the jobs that illegals have taken over were either low paying to begin with, or once employers realized that they could hire John for $12, Jamal for $10, or Jose for $8--and Jose had several friends who would work cheap--employers hired Jose and pocketed the difference as corporate profit. Which, at the end of the day, seems to be what's driving this country lately.

Posted by: onlytheshadowknows | December 7, 2007 5:46 PM

It is really pathetic when the only way you can argue your position is to write a stream of disgusting obscenities. It shows the lack of substantive arguments when you have to rely on the f word and such.

Posted by: btiathome | December 7, 2007 5:38 PM

When you can't come up with a reasonable argument to justify a separate system of justice and immunity from the laws for illegal aliens, play the race card and attack anyone who points out that fact.

Idiocy must be genetic. There's a lot of it going around.

Posted by: tinyt55 | December 7, 2007 5:38 PM

if the dems get a majority in the house and senate and/or the Presidentcy they will make illegals citizens who will turn out to put latinos into power and bring more latinos into the USA. America will become a Hispanic Nation with a majoirity speaking spanish. if you want to stop this you know what not to do, don't you...
to all blacks, you have the power, do something while you can.

Posted by: dwightcollinsduarte | December 7, 2007 5:29 PM

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 05:05 PM

Oh, and let's not forget that you are probably one of Craig's bathroom buddies...c^m guzzler.

Posted by: X_1967 | December 7, 2007 5:25 PM

A prior poster suggested that "we round them all up and load them in boxcars".

That's a novel idea and cheap - let's put it to a vote by the commenters here today. Shall we round up the invaders?

I vote Yay.

But, I nearly forgot - the SAVE act will pass very soon so we won't have to round them up. They'll simply lose their jobs and go home.

Posted by: Patriot1 | December 7, 2007 5:25 PM

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 05:05 PM

It's clear your same sex lover is an illegal alien that gives pleasure to your behind. Just admit it and move on.

Posted by: X_1967 | December 7, 2007 5:23 PM

If we keep going at it this way, next time we have a convention it will be filled with white males between the age of 40 and 60 (because people older than 60 vote overwhelmingly for the democrats)

I don't understand what you people want really. We have a problem. It is obvious to everyone. The question then is how to solve it. Are we going to remove 12 million people? How about rounding them up and sending them to camps and then putting on buses and sending them to their countries? That would work, wouldn't it? NO, it would NOT and it is just unfeasible. We don't have the human and financial resources to do so (not to mention the human cost of such a Nazi-like policy), and if i may add, we, Americans, are better than this.

So if we agree that it is not possible to remove 12 millions, then we need to come to some kind of compromise. Let us agree on a very tough legalization process such as removing any illegal aliens who committed any crime, paying fine, paying back taxes, learning English, taking civic classes and so forth. A legalization process that is stretched over 10 years or so and if any of the illegal aliens within the program does not fulfill the requirements, then she/he should be removed.

And as a proud Republican, i see a dark future for my party if we alienate the Latino community and hatemongers like Tancredo win. What would we do then if we have no blacks, very few women, and no Latinos? Are you willing to be a minority party forever? This is the cost of the idiotic rhetoric of Tancredo: losing the the states of Florida (my state), Colorado, New Mexico, maybe Georgia, and Nevada forever. And in exchange, we will not gain any other state because the number of voters who would flee the Democratic party would be nullified by the number of Latinos they gain. Remember, since 1964 the highest percentage rate of black vote for the GOP was 14% in 2000. People have long memories and i can guarantee you that Latinos will never forget if we alienate them.

Posted by: tevste | December 7, 2007 5:23 PM

In the past 7 years, politicians have allowed 7 million legal immigrants into this nation and 15 million illegal aliens to sneak across its borders and ports.

That is 3 million per year. At that rate, in one generation, excluding births in the US, we will allow 450 million people into America which means in 25 years, our population will be over 1 Billion, again excluding immigrant progeny.

Can America sustain a population of 1 Billion? Do Americans want a population of 1 billion when nearly half of our rivers and lakes are now unswimmable and unfishable? Our water supplies are already dwindling - drying up - but, in 25 years, what is left will be undrinkable.

That is the future of an America that will not control its borders or manage its immigration rates. And, Americans are doing it to themselves as a result of their elected politicians.

Tancredo has it right and for LaRaza or Maldef and Lulac and Claderon to try to make it a racist issue - well, Americans of all ethnic descent know that they LULAC and Maldef and Calderon and Council LaRza are the true racists.

We are defending our national sovreignty and the future resources of this nation.

Posted by: Patriot1 | December 7, 2007 5:21 PM

rat-the shrieked:

"Any Natuaralized American caught Aiding and abbetting an illegal invader should be sent packing as the traitor they are with foolishly given Citizenship Revoked!"
==

Note the many misspelled words, the atrocious grammar, the childish exclamation point, and the ridiculous hyperbole.

I think we have a .. yes, it has to be a Bush supporter!

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 5:10 PM

Yawn...

Posted by: Truthsayer242 | December 7, 2007 5:07 PM

LETS SHIP LOU DOBBS AND TOM TANCREDO TO MARS!!!

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 5:07 PM

YOU MEAN A REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM IDAHO... YEAH, IM PRETTY SURE LARRY CRAIG AGREES WITH YOUR VIEWS ON IMMIGRATION.... SO NOT ONLY ARE YOU A RACIST YOU ARE A DIC$ SUCKER TOO?

TRUTHSAYER42, TOM TANCREDO & LOU DOBBS ARE RACIST.....

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 5:05 PM

LOU DOBBS AND TOM TANCREDO ARE RACIST AND SHOULD BE PUT IN PRISON...

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 5:03 PM

Re: bethesda boy

Don't project your fantasies of all-male bathroom action onto me, keep those fantasies to yourself where they belong...or go find a senator into that kind of thing...

Posted by: Truthsayer242 | December 7, 2007 5:02 PM

While it's true illegal immigration is a complex issue, the reason why it arouses such strong feelings in those most concerned about it is that they are racists. When I hear you people screaming about offshore tax havens and outsourced jobs with equal fervor, perhaps I'll reconsider. Until then, you're racists.

Posted by: zukermand | December 7, 2007 5:01 PM

Any Natuaralized American caught Aiding and abbetting an illegal invader should be sent packing as the traitor they are with foolishly given Citizenship Revoked!

THEY Obviously are more loyal to another Country!
Then, realize all Anchor Babies are Dual Nationality, which to me, is one US Citizenship too many!

How to get 12 Million Invaders to go home? BUST their Employers with $1,000 fines a few times!

Hasta La Vista Invasorios! YOU are now free to move out of the Country!-And take those "Anchors" with YOU!

Posted by: rat-the | December 7, 2007 5:00 PM

The poll mentioned by terje2 is designed to comfort people like Balz and confuse the rest. It didn't disclose all the downsides of "reform"; they simply asked a misleading question in order to arrive at the answer they wanted.

I've seen a lot of comments from people like maxbyte, and I usually consider them to be shills. I note also that he's dissing American workers as lazy drunks and his mindset is similar in some ways to slavemasters.

For yet another thing Balz won't tell you, the MexicanGovernment has just explicitly stated that they'll be meddling in this whole debate:

http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/007300.html

They'll be joining with nonprofits to do it. Guess what: several U.S. nonprofits already have direct or indirect links to that government, and some of those groups then have links to Democratic politicians.

I suggest going to public appearances by those politicians and asking them about the groups to which they're linked, then upload their response to video sharing sites.

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | December 7, 2007 5:00 PM

RUMOR HAS IT TRUTHSAYER242 GOT BEAT UP BY TWO SPANISH GUYS WHO STUCK HIS HEAD IN A TOILET AND FLUSHED.... I GUESS I COULD UNDERSTAND YOUR ANGER WITH HISPANICS AFTER GETTING THAT SHI# WATER SPLASHED AGAINST YOUR FACE....

RACIST LOSER!!!!

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 4:59 PM

Ohh, look, he put everything in capital letters - that sure makes his ranting more legitamite!

Posted by: Truthsayer242 | December 7, 2007 4:56 PM

HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT ABOUT THE FACT THAT IF THEY PASSED THAT LAST IMMIGRATION BILL THAT THE "DUMMY" ALSO SUPPORTED ALL OF SUDDEN THE SO CALLED "ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS" WOULD BE "LEGAL IMMIGRANTS" THEY ARE ONLY ILLEGAL BECAUSE YOUR PRESIDENT DECIDED TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHILE PEOPLE WERE CROSSING THE BORDERS.. LAWS WERE NOT ENFORCED SO NOW WE GOT 12 MILLION PEOPLE HERE UNDOCUMENTED... STOP GETTING CAUGHT UP IN THE WORD ILLEGAL LIKE THEY WALKED THE BORDER TO COME HERE AND STEAL AND KILL... THEY COME HERE TO WORK YOU STUPID RACIST LOSER!!! AND THAT IS NOT PLAYING THE RACE CARD... YOU ARE RACIST... OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT THINK THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH BEING RACIST!!!

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 4:54 PM

yeah, "bethesda boy", every person who takes a stand against illegal immigration is a country-bumpkin from Alabama. That is the most racist thing I have heard in the comments today. Pathetic.

Posted by: Truthsayer242 | December 7, 2007 4:52 PM

Unfortunately, too many of the comments made here support the view that that racism and xenophobia are what is behind the anti-immigrant sentiment. To run behind the "illegal" status and think that it protects you from accusations of racism is simpleminded. This is a complex issue, involving corporate responsibilty and intelligent law enforcement. Screaming about an "invasion" and taking out your anger strictly at people, by defining them as less than human, makes you the very thing you hate being called. As I have said before, if you are serious about addressing people who are not legally in this country being hired, then pull your fat a**es out of the all you can eat buffet and tell the proprietor that you will not be back until his business is full of legal workers; additions to home? Nix it until you can verify that all the people on the crew are legal! Next time your lazy son sits around picking lint out of his belly button, tell him to get in line for a job - 'cause cleaning toilets or hauling trash is an honest days work, right? In other words, until you are willing to get off your lazy butts and actually put your money where your big mouths are, all this complaining about an invasion is a crock!

Posted by: LABC | December 7, 2007 4:51 PM

TANCREDO IS RACIST.... RUMOR HAS IT A SPANISH GUY FUC#$% HIS WIFE AND GOT HER PREGNANT... THUS, HE NOW HATES ALL SPANISH PEOPLE... POOR GUY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE MAD AT YOUR PARENTS THAT MADE YOU LOOK LIKE A LITTLE SHRIMP....HAHA... TANCREDO IS A RACIST!!! LOSER!!!!!!

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 4:50 PM

Let's hear from the Republican dwarves what they intend to do about the 12-14 million already here illegally. Are we going to round them all up and load them in boxcars?

It's been done.

This is where it breaks down; Americans are not Nazis. We're not going to have a home-grown Holocaust so how about you hot-eyed Republican loser just grow the f*ck up.

Posted by: chrisfox8 | December 7, 2007 4:46 PM

Re: Zuckermand:

No, you are a racist, and even worse, you are trying to use the race card to avoid having illegal immigrants from having to accept responsibility for coming here illegally. You are a coward hiding behind the race card.

Posted by: Truthsayer242 | December 7, 2007 4:45 PM

LAST TIME I CHECKED THE ONLY TWO PRESIDENTS THAT COMMITTED HIGH CRIMES IN OFFICE WERE NIXON AND CHEANEY/bush.....HAHA...

YOU RACIST MOTHER FU#$@%S NEED TO GO BACK HOME TO ALABAMA OR WHEREVER YOUR FROM.... THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT MY IMMIGRANTS!!! WHAT WOULD IT BE WITHOUT NEW YORK, L.A., CHICAGO, BOSTON, WASHINGTON ETC? THIS COUNTRY IS NOT WHAT IT IS BECAUSE OF MOBILE ALABAMA!!! FUC# ALL YOU RACIST!!! LOSERS!!!!

Posted by: bethesdaboy1 | December 7, 2007 4:44 PM

"and therefore they are the real racists here, not you."

No, you're wrong. You are racist. By the way, I don't know if Tancredo is racist, but he is an opportunist leveraging your racism for his political gain.

Posted by: zukermand | December 7, 2007 4:39 PM

In addition, I would suggest that anyone who tries to accuse you of racism for simply demanding that illegal immigrants be held accountable for their actions is racist themselves. They are the ones that are viewing the issue in racial terms (as opposed to viewing this in terms of the real harm being done to the middle class and all taxapayers), and therefore they are the real racists here, not you.

Posted by: Truthsayer242 | December 7, 2007 4:33 PM

How in the HECK can Presidentual Candidates possibly defend this Illegal ALIENS Occupation Army, as some are doing?

These candidates, Barack Hussein Obama, John McCain,Huckabee,etc should know that the CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF THE UNITED STATES IS THE PRESIDENT!!

Should i believe that AMERICAN citizens are going to VOTE for a candidate that KNOWS that that these Illegal ALIENS are breaking the law and they are going to do NOTHING about it!!!

Can one possibly vote for a dishonest candidate for PRESIDENT!!

GOD, what in the heck is going to become of our GREAT COUNTRY!!

Posted by: burlupus2000 | December 7, 2007 4:26 PM

"My position is not racist,"

Yes, it is.

" it is American."

No, it's not. It's racist.

Posted by: zukermand | December 7, 2007 4:25 PM

There is, I believe, only one law, local, state or national, thatt is not avidly enforced by every police department in our country: illegal entry into the United States. I am a life-long Democratic voter and worker who intends to vote for any other presidential candidate in 2008, rather than the Democrats who want to legitimize illegal immigration. My position is not racist, it is American. I want to stop the invasion of America.

Posted by: ronmitchell | December 7, 2007 4:21 PM

Again, another liberal uses the term "racism" to try and deflect a particular group (illegal immigrants) from having to accept responsibility for their criminal actions (entering the US illegally).

The race card is a joke, and most voters realize this. This article again tries to marginalize that fact that over 70% of Americans WANT BORDER CONTROL and OPPOSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. This is not racism, this is about saving the middle class and lower income families from declining wages brought about by a neverending supply of cheap, undocumented labor, and maintaining a better quality of life. I urge anyone who hears a liberal or a Hispanic advocate group try to use the race card to point this out, as they usually shut up when you point out the cold, hard facts.

As usual, the article also overemphasizes the supposed "burgeoning power" of the Hispanic vote, which is a farce. Illegal immigrants cannot vote anyway, and it will be decades before their children have enough votes to influence an election. Besides, as the negative results of illegal immigration become more apparent (like the recent murder of a police officer by an illegal in AZ, or the deaths of 2 young women at the hands of a drunk-driving immigrant at VA Beach, further decline of the middle class, etc.) there will be an even greater mobilization of US-Born citizens against illegal immigration.

They also ignore the fact that African-American voters are also highly opposed to illegal immigration, as they are more likely to be affected by lowered wages caused by illegal immigration, and have been the target of many Hispanic criminals in their own communities. Both parties are making a mistake by not addressing their concerns over illegal immigration.

The bottom line here is that despite over 70% of the population being opposed to illegal immigration, the democrats mainly support illegal immigration despite the harm being done to the general public and America itself because of the huge boost in numbers they think it will give to the democratic party. This is akin to Mike Nifong trying to frame 3 innocent young men for a crime they did not commit solely for political gain. Shame on them, and anyone else who supports those who violate our laws.

And fight back against those that try to use the race card - they use the race card to try and sidestep responsibility for coming here illegally, with the goal of siliencing opposition through fear of shame. Don't accept this, and fight back.

Posted by: Truthsayer242 | December 7, 2007 4:21 PM

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Stop the BOGUS SPIN!

Immigration is NOT the issue! We allow more Immigration than is good for us! Any Legal Immigrant faces the exact same nightmare as I do!

EMPLOYERS don't want to hire LEGAL workers!

On Construction sites especially, ILLEGAL workers are in demand! NO Payroll taxes, No Un-Employment Risks, No Insurance requirements, No Payrolling Expenses! Etc. Etc...

IT IS AN EMPLOYMENT ISSUE!

Folks, consider the Cash under the Table Scam, and what it does to everyone but the criminal Employer taking advantage of us!
Taking advantage of us with our Elected Traitor's blessings BTW!

$10/Hr is $10 TAKE HOME for the Un-Documented Worker, who in this case is an escaped "White" Felon! Hiding on the lam, while working on that House next door to yours!

For a 50 Hour week, he takes home $500!

If I tried to get the Job for $10/Hr., I would cost the Employer SS, Un-Employment dues, Workers comp, and the Expense(Time or Money or both) of Payrolling me! Figure at least $3.50/Hr! Then to add insult to injury, I'd only take home $7.50!
Hard top compete when the Employer has ZERO fear factor of being fined for hiring illegally! Shoot, everybody else is doing it! Darn, there just are not enough Americans hiding under the Radar! What can He find instead? Guess he will just have to start Importing more Abusable workers who can't complain!

Fools-It gets much worse! That $2.50 Employee SS, FICA, and Income tax, + $3.50 Employer Taxes=$6/Hr. NOT COLLECTED for Schools, Roads, City Budgets(Yeah, that Sanctuary City's budget!)Hospitals, Etc., ADDS UP!

With at LEAST Ten Million Un-Documented Jobs, with an easy Avarage of $10/Hr with a Fifty Hour Week, Fifty Weeks/Year-

10,000,000 X $12,500/Worker/Yr. Money NOT Collected=

ONE HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS!!!!

Not to mention all the dead wieght of unpaid Hospital Bills, School costs, Etc., Etc., caused by the Families of the People who Stole 10 Million Jobs right out from under our Noses in our own damned Country!

Oh, and for all the La Raza RACISTS-Nationalism is not Racism. Helping fellow Hispanics to better your own IS!

Posted by: rat-the | December 7, 2007 4:20 PM

People like Tom Tancredo, Pat Buchanan, Lou Dobbs are a blight on humanity by attacking the Latino community.
They are catering to racist sentiments pure and simple.
They also paint a picture of America as a truly ugly place in the world, especially in this hemisphere.
You don't have to look far in the Washington Area to see the tremendous value they add doing every type of low-paying dirty job imaginable.
The premise that Latinos don't want to assimilate is a LIE! At the very least anyone who's been in the country any length of time, hard-working, law-abiding and family oriented should be given a legal status.

Posted by: chambedr | December 7, 2007 4:00 PM

Funny, if you read the comments here, you'd think that the country was filled to the brim with xenophobes and racists. And if you read the comments about Mitt Romney's speech, you'd think that Atheists were a voting majority. Such are the marvels of anonymous internet opinions.

If the government didn't work 24 hours a day---and then a little overtime---to keep people FROM becoming citizens, then you'd see a lot fewer illegal aliens. When the "what part of the word 'illegal' don't you understand?" crowd starts to call for increasing immigration quotas for people who work every bit as hard as they likely do, and WANT to become legal citizens, I'll start believing their pretensions of not being racists.

Posted by: andym108 | December 7, 2007 4:00 PM

Here we go again. If your home is being invaded and you protest, you are an evil racist. Just lie back and enjoy it. In our Corporotocracy or Oligarchy (your choice)the bottom line is everything. Except! Middle America pays the bills, and as Hispanics gain more and more, they are not assuming their share of the financial load--just their share of the goodies. The unfairness is what is galling and affecting voters. It will get worse.

Posted by: zaney | December 7, 2007 3:43 PM

It's about people. Any action on immigration effects a whole person, not just some aspect. You can change laws about taxation and it will effect somebody's pocketbook. You can pass laws about speeding and it will effect the way people drive. However, laws about immigration effect the immigrant's entire existence.

That is where the emotionality of the argument comes in. There are at least three households in my neighborhood that may no longer exist if all illegals are removed from the country. At least one of these households has children that are US citizens by birth. That family is really nice and there's not much I won't do for them.

With that said, I still support the (forcible) removal of all illegals, even if it breaks up this family. I'll go to bat for the kids and, if necessary, I'll help the parents return legally (if, in fact, they are illegals).

The point is that this issue should not be taken lightly precisely because it so deeply and intimately effects the lives of millions upon millions of people. But just because these people's lives are going to be profoundly upset does not, in my book, excuse them from breaking fundamental US laws and violating our sovereignty just because there in the North. We need to secure our borders and then remove all of those who have wantonly and flagrantly violated our borders.

Deportemos Illegalitos.

Posted by: ivangroznii | December 7, 2007 3:39 PM

SORRY,THE REPUBLICANS WILL NOT GET THE HISPANIC VOTE IN THE NEXT ELECTION.
Most legal immigrants have friends or relatives who are undocumented.
After having bashed the illegals for months the Republicans cannot expect to get the vote of those who care about the plight of the undocumented/illegal immigrants.

Posted by: mehuws | December 7, 2007 3:39 PM

English should be designated as the Official Language of the United States of America.

Posted by: jnrentz | December 7, 2007 3:35 PM

There should be NO accommodation for any illegal immigrants. I realize that it is impossible to deport twelve million illegal immigrants but that is no reason to further accommodate a group of people who are not supposed to be in the United States.

We can start with those illegal immigrants who are arrested for crimes. Any illegal immigrant who is arrested for any crime should be subject to deportation.

Posted by: jnrentz | December 7, 2007 3:33 PM

By way of comparison, my Father was a dairy farmer all his life in southwest Washington State. He started with 21 Jersey cows after he returned from WWII and went to 100+ Holsteins within ten years. Then he accepted a dairy management-owner position from a wealthy elderly man who lived nearby. That resulted in a herd of 750 to 800 milking Holsteins, plus several hundred non-milking stock.

He quickly found that the only Americans who applied for milking jobs were alcoholics who might or might not show up, and drifters whose lifestyle was nomadic.

He ultimately decided to hire one Guatemalan to fill one of four milking positions. He knew the young man was an illegal alien. He knew he was breaking the law by hiring him. But the young man was at work every day without exception and would do everything asked of him. He was paid exactly what his American counterparts were paid, and given a house as well.

I was in my mid-twenties at the time, did not know "Pedro" was illegal until Dad hired three more to complete his need for four milkers working 10-hour shifts once a day. I did not like the illegal aspect of it at all. My father had always been law-abiding. But I also knew the farm would fail without reliable people. Dad certainly couldn't milk the cows by himself.

But, in my Father's case, the issue had nothing to do with a pay or benefit differential. Everyone was treated and paid alike.

So, contrary to some of the other comments being thrown around, there are critical jobs Americans will not fill. Or they will fill them and seldom show up.

For me, the compromise should be "the same pay for the same work" and those in such positions must enter the U.S. with permission-only, and with citizenship a collateral goal.

But, for U.S. employers who want and practice "lower pay for illegals doing the same work", their operation should be closed or moved to Mexico. And that's the name of that tune.

Posted by: maxbyte | December 7, 2007 3:21 PM

What seems to be lost in the din of the immigration debate is that it is a minority (albeit a vocal minority) that is enraged by the prospect of comprehensive immigration reform.

Look at the latest LATimes/ Bloomberg Poll (11/30 - 12/3, 2007) on the subject. When asked :

"One proposal that has been discussed in Congress would allow illegal immigrants who have been living and working in the United States for a number of years, and who do not have a criminal record, to start on a path to citizenship by registering that they are in the country, paying a fine, getting fingerprinted, and learning English, among other requirements. Do you support or oppose this, or haven't you heard enough about it to say?"

60 % agreed, 15% opposed, and 25% were unsure.

Americans understand that this is a complex issue that needs complex answers -- the Tancredo/ Lou Dobbs/ Minutemen extremists are loud, but they are not the majority. People are willing to support sane solutions to this issue -- let's hope that in the upcoming campaign the noise of the demagogues doesn't drown out the opportunity for a rational discussion of the issue.

Posted by: terje2 | December 7, 2007 3:20 PM

In the long-term we are all dead. In the short-term, which is all that matters, this issue is the bane of democrats and manna for the GOP. Democrats better wise up or they will LOSE again. This does not mean they should advocate mass deportation, just simply state, I will enforce the current laws on immigration and hold those who violate them accountable.

I am an indepedent who leans Democratic in naitonal elections, and if I do not see a change in illegal immigration policy form Democrats, I will vote for a write-in candidate. I will be joined by millions.

Amazing that the Post still schills for the failed war in Iraq and coddling of illegal aliens. If candidates listened to your editorial page, they would get no votes.

Posted by: merganser | December 7, 2007 3:19 PM

Interesting I was reading on I believe the BBC website how newly naturalized immigrants are registering Republican in greater numbers. People forget that there are other groups besides Hispanic who immigrate to the country.

Posted by: cleancut77 | December 7, 2007 3:16 PM

I am a moderate Republican and i am ashamed and revolted by the way my party has been discussing the topic of immigration. It reeks racism, ethnocentrism, and white supremacist BS that i heard in the late 60s and early 70s.

Tancredo is on a crusade to ethnically cleanse America. He and everyone who has been influenced by his hateful and stupid ethnocentric rhetoric have a political IQ close to nil. I am old enough to remember how the GOP lost the vote of the African American community and women by their racists and sexist political strategies. I am more than certain that we have already lost a substantial portion of the Hispanic vote. We are talking about the fastest growing community in the US nowadays and it doesn't take a genius to do the math and realizes that if the GOP doesn't capture a portion of that community, it would be a minority party for the foreseeable future.

It is time for the GOP leadership to begin using rational thinking and putting ideological nonsense aside. Tancredo and everyone who believes that America is being overtaken by Latinos should read some books about the late 1800 Irish and Italian immigration. My grandparents, Irish in this case, were also too catholic, too different, spoke with a fanny accent, lazy, and had a lot of babies. Funny how the same rhetoric is being used again by nowadays "nativists".

Posted by: tevste | December 7, 2007 3:14 PM

"Genuine anger and frustration among a part of the population and a potentially significant counter reaction within the Latino community over the political response. Failure to recognize and respond to both would be foolhardy."

So, this means that a presidential candidate will have to "straddle" the immigration issue, or better, "triangulate?" And how much flack do you expect a candidate to get who does this?

Posted by: jp1954 | December 7, 2007 3:08 PM

Our nation has been under invasion for many years. It has to stop. Going to be hard to do if Hillary is elected President. Her view is that citizens who oppose illegal immigration are just a bunch of whiners.
-
Joe Klein writing for Time magazine...

The Democratic candidates are uniformly in favor of comprehensive immigration reform, including a path to citizenship for those who have entered the country illegally. But they receive sharp--pointed--applause when they say illegals should "have to speak English" before becoming citizens. When I asked Hillary Clinton about that, she said she'd noticed it too and added, "During the 1990s, I cannot remember being asked about immigration ... Why? Because the economy was working ... And average Americans didn't have to go around looking for someone to blame."

Posted by: Tupac_Goldstein | December 7, 2007 2:56 PM

Balz's blog seems quite biased, like most WaPo material.

He dismisses Tancredo as having "gone nowhere" as if this is solely due to his fervent opposition to illegal immigration. In fact, the fact that Tancredo has raised millions of dollars, finished only 600 votes behind Huckabee in the Iowa Caucus and is still in the race is despite the lack of support from major corporations (who benefit from illegal labor, by the way) is actually a testament to how much his position resonates with people.

He lacks higher poll numbers mostly due to lack of coverage by the media, lack of wealthy financial donors (he has more $20 dollar donors than any other candidate) rather than his position on immigration. But Balz won't tell you all that.

Further, the reason the illegal immigration debate is so emotional among Americans is because it is government sponsored anarchy. Americans realize the wealthy are benefitting from our leaders picking and choosing which laws they will enforce. Notice they aren't turning a blind eye on tax evaders.

Still further, in light of our approach towards recession, everyone seems to ignore the severe economic burdon placed on this country over the last 10 years from a doubling of illegal immigrants who statistically, use significantly more welfare than native born or educated legal immigrants.

Lastly, Hispanic voters only make up 8% of the electorate so I warn politicians who believe this will somehow put them in office. American blacks, whites, asians, and others make up the rest and according to every major poll, Americans are against drivers licenses for illegals, in support of closed borders, and oppose amnesty.

Balz, get your facts straight.

Posted by: fighterDC | December 7, 2007 2:51 PM

"Balz repeatedly attempts to portray those who oppose illegal activity as motivated simply by anger"

You are right to disagree. He avoids the real motivation, racism.

Posted by: zukermand | December 7, 2007 2:41 PM

1. Balz repeatedly attempts to portray those who oppose illegal activity as motivated simply by anger. And, he passes along McCain's misleading claim that opponents aren't engaging in "reason and civility" without question.

2. It doesn't "defy solutions"; simply enforce the current laws. One of the best ways to get there is to discredit those who support or enable illegal immigration.

3. I take David Brooks' "perceptive analysis" to task here:

http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/007260.html

Some of that applies to this article.

4. The Mark Penn quote is so full of holes it's not funny. Very few people want to "keep immigrants out", so he's trying to mislead. And, he's supporting a race-based immigration system where we should allow massive illegal activity as long as it's performed by those of the right race.

As for being mobilized, neither Balz nor Penn have a clue as to who was doing the mobilizing:

http://wiki.lonewacko.com/wiki/Immigration-march-organizers-have-foreign-links

Can the WaPo find people who are familiar with these issues and who are able to think things through and present all sides of an issue?

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | December 7, 2007 2:20 PM

We need to get a grip on the issue for exactly the reason the Pew Hispanic Center is somehow trying to control things! It is almost becomming, or quite possibly already has become too late!

In Austin Texas, 20% of the LEGAL population is foreign Born! Now, when you look around, and see all the Hispanic FAMILIES, each with as many Children as they could possibly concieve, you realize very quickly that MILLIONS are around. See, that 20% does not include all the American Born Children! Many of which have Parents illegally here who are not considered in the 20%!

IT IS A WAR! A WAR OF OCCUPATION!

Worse, we are being occupied by People taught by their Government that what they are occupying was and should be theirs!

Worse YET, they are also decendants of the Revolutionaries who stole Mexico from the decent Mexicans that were the previous wave that assimilated. The newest wave has ZERO desire to assimilate! THEY are here to do just as the La Raza group proclaims:

RECONQUISTA! It is "La INVASORA" and I have to watch our Country's MORON Leaders stick their Foolish Heads in the Sand on the issue!

All I can try to tell all the blatantly stupid people north of me, is take your Vacation this year to Laredo, Corpus Christi, or Brownsville! Behold the future!

Then for a real wake-up call, try to look for a Job! GRINGOS!-no habla espanol? Ohh too bad!

It all begins with, and is as simple as, eliminating Un-Documented labor!

The FEDS need to step up to the plate, or pass the responsibilty over!

We need to treat Foreignors here, EXACTLY like MEXICO Does there!

Posted by: rat-the | December 7, 2007 2:03 PM

Interesting.

Posted by: corones | December 7, 2007 2:01 PM

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