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Mich., Fla. Dilemma Consumes Democrats

By Zachary A. Goldfarb
Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, warned today that a divisive nomination battle could cost Democrats the presidency in November.

"[T]he only thing that can beat us is that we're divided," Dean said on ABC's "This Week." "I have to run these rules so that the losing side feels they've been treated fairly."

VIDEO | From CBS's Face the Nation: Howard Dean On Democratic Candidates

With the Democratic nomination battle largely on hold ahead of the April 22 Pennsylvania primary, Dean was one of several officials who addressed today whether Florida and Michigan should hold new votes so that their delegates can take part in August's national convention.

Both states held primaries in January, in defiance of an election calendar set up by the committee Dean chairs. In response, the DNC said that Florida and Michigan delegates would not be seated at the convention. With Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) and Barack Obama (Ill.) in a close race, those delegates now hold more significance.

Continue reading at The Talk »

Posted at 2:05 PM ET on Mar 9, 2008  | Category:  Sunday Talkies
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Good for you (BTW as soon as you answer my question, I will return you the same courtesy).

Posted by: JakeD | March 11, 2008 6:41 AM

JakeD--They went through his kindergarten records! What in the world has that got to do with policy? What has race-baiting got to do with policy?

No more pitting people against each other, especially Democrats! No more taking the Black vote for granted!

I will soon do my tiny part for Obama here in NC. By the way, we are the biggest state left after Pa.

Posted by: gmundenat | March 11, 2008 5:57 AM

gmundenat:

It was a HYPOTHETHICAL question, but if you'd rather not answer, that's fine with me.

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 7:32 PM

The candidates did not campaign in Florida or Michigan? Are you nuts? They both had active local organisations. Don't people in Florida and Michigan watch the news or read the papers? Do they need a TV campaign ad to decide how to vote? Give me a break. Everyone knew who they were voting for and their stated preference as per the results are as valid as anywhere else.

Posted by: eyendall1 | March 10, 2008 6:49 PM

"There is a simple easy solution
DREAM TICKET
You know it makes sense"

So, who will be on top? ;-)

Posted by: eyendall1 | March 10, 2008 6:43 PM

The solution to the Florida-Michegan mess is to seat all delegates while relieving them of their pledge to any candidate. They can then vote for whoever they feel will win the election for the Democrats.
The current primary system is insane and needs urgent reform. All states should vote on the same day: no caucuses, only primaries: only registered democrats shold be allowed to vote: and winner take all adopted.

Posted by: eyendall1 | March 10, 2008 6:39 PM

JakeD--Alan Keyes was not even remotely viable. Be serious.

Posted by: gmundenat | March 10, 2008 5:13 PM

Googlesby: Senator Clinton's tax returns, like yours and mine, are between her and the IRS.

Posted by: Kansas28 | March 10, 2008 5:06 PM

The Clintons are using weapons of mass distractions in order to not face the music; the release of their records (tax returns, White House records, list of big donors for their foundation, etc.). The release of these documents will highlight new scandals and make Hillary Clinton radio-active as candidate. The Clintons should be pressured to release these records as soon as possible since this is in the interest of most democrats, independents and moderate republicans; if Hillary is the nominee and these scandals pop up after the nomination, then McCain will be the next president whether or not Michigan and Florida are given another chance to cheat the system.

Posted by: Logan6 | March 10, 2008 3:12 PM

Bruce from Pennsylvania has it exactly right about Florida.....the Democrats were trapped by the Republican Legislator and Governor into a primary date over which they had no control. In the "primary" subsequently held and one that, hopefully, would eventually be counted, both Obama and Clinton were listed and Hillary won conclusively in an a primary that saw an amazing one million seven hundred thousand votes cast. All this without either candidate campaigning in the state (although some of Obama's TV commercials intended for other southern states did air on some Florida TV stations).

I don't see a reason for a re-vote in Florida as, except for the date which Dems couldn't help the results were and are legitimate.

It was bad enough that the Florida (and the nation's) democratic voters were cheated in the 2000 election; don't double the sin by cheating them again! Let the primary count, as is! No expensive re-vote necessary.

John A.

Posted by: treetips1 | March 10, 2008 2:41 PM

What needs to also be mentioned, is that although Barack Inasne O'Bombing did not Campaign in Floriduh, and Missed-chigan, He DID get to dedicate his useless time to such lessor States as Arkansas, and the Carolinas!

Now, he gets to reap what he sowed!

Does Ruthie Giuliani get to declare a "Do-Over" because he wasted all his focus on just one State?

Sorry Barack, seems there WAS a reason NOT to IGNORE the People in those two States! ;~)

LOL! Pay-Back's can be real "Nancy Pelosi"'s! ;~)

Posted by: rat-the | March 10, 2008 2:29 PM


WE ARE BACK ON A WINNING TRACK.

It looks like progress is being made to admit delegates from Florida and Michigan, either through a re-vote, or seating those already selected in the recent previous votes.

I do object to words of "pressure" I am hearing, that the Democratic Party should go into the August Convention with the nominee already chosen, and if not, we may be just opening up the door for Senator John McCain to walk in from the November vote.

I doubt very highly that this will be resolved by convention time. The rules allow a process into the convention, and if that is where the delegate math is at that time, we will proceed along that course.

I have seen some confusion on the Florida matter, and I want to add what I know from researching some of the actual newspaper reports from that time.

It was the Republican Governor and Republican controlled legislature that moved up the date of the primary, knowing full well in advance that the state's Democratic Party delegates would not be seated. The Democratic Party did not agree to this. It was not their idea. It was "forced" down their throats when the Republican controlled legislature tacked it on to some critical legislation that had to go through at the end of the session. The Democratic people tried to have it separated and voted on separately, but the Republican Party who was in control said no, and muscled it through. That was not fair, and now we (people in all 50 states) are only trying to play by the rules as they should have been, and correct what unfairly happened.

It appears what we had above was remnants of the earlier George Bush/Kathryn Harris Republican Party of Florida up to its ole tricks; but now we can correct that.

I am a resident of Pennsylvania, and I am asking all voters throughout this great state (border to border) to join me on April 22nd, pour out to the polls, and give Hillary Clinton a massive record breaking win on that date. That is something that we can control, and we need no advice from anybody on that. Let's do all we can to give her a major massive record breaking win, and lawfully (at the ballot box) squish down this Obama noise of fake and hyped up euphoria that no one can put on their kitchen table.

Let's show the rest of the country we are here, we're proud of it, and we can help by substantially building up the momentum from Ohio and Texas, and jack it up to where it should be.

Thank you for your attention.

Common Sense - Bruce

Posted by: CommonSense12 | March 10, 2008 2:09 PM

Of course Michigan and Florida delegates need to be counted and seated at the DNC convention. It's absurd to think otherwise.

Florida should be counted as it now stands, as all names were on the ballot.

Michigan should have a new primary in fairness to Obama who was not on the ballot.

Actually, the race is already over. Hillary has proven she can win big in the big states that are the must wins for the Dems in November.

If you can't win in states like Ohio, you can't win the Presidency. In Ohio, Obama outspent Hillary 3 to 1 yet won ONLY 5 out of 88 counties in Ohio. FIVE! No amount of money is going to elect Obama.

Obama is unqualified to be President and is UNELECTABLE.

GAME OVER.

GO HILLARY!!

Posted by: TAH1 | March 10, 2008 1:59 PM

I am a Floridian and if my vote mattered so much to Hillary then why didn't she fight this hard for my vote in the beginning and NOT SIGN THE AGREEMENT!!! Don't you love how she just picks and chooses which votes she wants counted, which ones matter to her. DEMOCRATIC FLORIDIANS DID NOT GO OUT TO VOTE BECAUSE IT DID NOT COUNT! If we now have a mailing, can she GUARENTEE that my vote will be received, received in time, not changed? If I have to show my I.D. when I go to vote how will it be guarenteed that it is actually me that is sending in my vote. THIS WOULD BE WORSE THAN WHEN BUSH STOLE THE ELECTION. She's bragging about winning Ohio! The exit poles show that in 8 out of 10 voters RACE had a part in their decision. So they really didn't vote for her because she was qualified but because she was white. Isn't that going back in time? And she's proud of that!

Posted by: PeopleFirst | March 10, 2008 1:23 PM

Nothing matters so much right now as what the Democrats decide to do with Florida. Florida is as likely to be as important this year as it was to our campaign in 2000. http://timelikethis.blogspot.com/
-Trevor Wynne
Washington, DC

Posted by: trevorwynnewhitehouse | March 10, 2008 12:50 PM

The initial efforts of the Clinton campaign to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida, should be taken for an effort to steal the election. As the possibility of re-holding those primaries was always there and as Obama has built his reputation on being one who unites others, his campaign could not call this for what it was. Like Gore contesting the 2000 election, it could have ruined him.

But I don't understand how the effort to change the election rules, after they have been agreed to, because a change will benefit your side, is anything other than an attempt to steal that election. Would the Clinton campaign have tried seating them i she had lost those votes, after all?

Because that effort was made and because the threat is still there, the Clinton campaign has divided the party. Of course, we should have been able to predict this. After all, her own staff is deeply divided, she was divisive of her other primary challengers, and she is a divisive force in the nation. Is there any reason we shouldn't expect that she will also be divisive on the global stage?

If the Clinton's use their machine to assure an outcome to this process which is unfair, the Democrats will lose a whole new generation of voters and much of the left will be confirmed in their disgust with the party and vote for Nader again. Should we blame them when the Democrats establishment candidate is one who appears more interested in winning than advancing the agenda she believes in?

Posted by: ReframeAmerica | March 10, 2008 12:39 PM

Remember! EVERY Vote Counts!

Every VOTE Dammit!

When it is the Vote we want! ;~)

Posted by: rat-the | March 10, 2008 12:33 PM

The penalties for these creatures committing crimes are not stiff enough. One of these Killers should have been in prison instead was out committing at least 5 robberies. We need to castrate all Rapists and Execute all Killers. The review process for the Death Penalty is too lengthy and lenient. Too many of these useless creatures are released back into society only to reoffend again and again. The other suspect looks like another gangster that has no place in a civilized society. Execute these useless creatures.

Hundreds mourn slain students, Two young women at University of North Carolina and Auburn mourned
The Associated Press
updated 6:49 p.m. PT, Sun., March. 9, 2008
ATHENS, Ga. - Heartbroken mourners searched soul and scripture Sunday to understand why someone would fatally shoot a popular University of North Carolina student body president and cut short a life with such promise.
For the hundreds gathered at Athens First United Methodist Church, Eve Carson should still be at school, studying political science and biology, teaching science to grade schoolers and planning her next trip abroad.

"We should not be here this afternoon," senior minister Bill Britt said, angry that the 22-year-old was not instead celebrating spring break or getting ready for the Atlantic Coast Conference basketball tournament.

"It is too soon to be remembering the life of Eve Marie Carson," he told the mourners who gathered here in her hometown or came down from the university in Chapel Hill, N.C. Many wore Carolina blue ribbons in her honor.

Carson called 'a gift to Chapel Hill'
During the nearly two-hour service, there were just as many references to her beauty, intelligence and leadership as to her kindness, dedication to service and concern for others.

"Eve Carson was truly a gift to Chapel Hill," UNC-Chapel Hill Chancellor James Moeser said.

Carson was in a four-year leadership development program for undergraduates, taught science at Chapel Hill elementary schools and spent summers volunteering in such places as Ecuador, Egypt and Ghana.

Carson was found Wednesday morning lying on a street about a mile from campus. She had been shot several times, including once in the right temple. Police are searching for a man photographed using her ATM card. A photo expert told the Raleigh Chronicle on Sunday that he believes a second person can be seen in the surveillance photo distributed by police.

In Marietta, Ga., the hometown of slain Auburn University freshman Lauren Burk, a rabbi asked hundreds of people gathered at her funeral to turn their anger into something positive and let the justice system handle her killer.

Rabbi Steven Lebow said Sunday at Temple Kol Emeth that mourners should give blood or donate to charity in her memory.

"It would be easy to give way to our emotions this afternoon because there is a spectrum of feelings broiling and unsettling our souls," Lebow said. "The right thing isn't vengeance. The right thing is justice.

Burk, 18, was found shot on the side of an off-campus road Tuesday night and her car was found burning in a campus parking lot. Her car was found that night burning in a campus parking lot. A man has been charged in her death.

Lebow said the person who took her life committed two unpardonable sins -- murder and theft.

"He stole from Lauren's family the trust that all of us have that this is a good world, that Auburn is a safe town. He stole from all of us the sense of security that makes normalcy and life possible," Lebow said.

A white casket holding Burk's body was placed at the front of the sanctuary. Childhood and teenage pictures of Burk were displayed in the synagogue's lobby.

Suspect served in Iraq
The mother of Courtney Lockhart, the man accused of killing Burk, offered an apology to Burk's family in a television interview, saying her son was an Iraq war veteran who was changed after his service.

"First let me say I'm sorry to the Burk family for Courtney taking, taking their child. ... My heart goes out to her family," Catherine Williams said in the tearful interview with Columbus, Ga., television station WTVM.

But she also said her son did not confess anything to her.

Williams said her son, 23, hasn't been the same after serving 16 months in Iraq. She said her son had been living with her in Smiths Station, Ala., since returning from the war.

A Burk family spokeswoman said the Burk family likely did not see the Saturday evening interview.

"The family didn't watch any TV last night. I honestly don't know what their reaction is," Kathy Singleton said. "My heart breaks for anyone that's attached to the whole tragic situation."

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23550281/

Posted by: mawt | March 10, 2008 12:30 PM

As a Florida voter, I want to say that: 1)It was stupid of the state Democratic party to move the Florida election forward, in spite of party rules and warnings that Florida delegates would not be permitted to be seated at the convention. 2) It was stupid of the DNC not to grant Florida a waiver to hold an earlier primary, since there was a property tax initiative on the ballot on Jan. 29, which Democrats had hoped to defeat with a large turnout for the primary. (Lacking any significant numbers Democratic primary voters, the Republican tax initiative passed, the effects of which will be devastating to local government and schools.) 3) It has stupid of the national Democratic party to allow Hillary Clinton to claim Florida and Michigan in her "win" column. Once the decision was made that the results of the Florida and Michigan primaries would not count, Clinton should have been penalized by the party for flying to Florida the night of the primary for a victory rally. Instead many party officials who support her, like Gov. Ed Rendell of Pennslvania, are pandering to her insistence that she was done an injustice in being deprived of "her" delegates.

That said, while I do not appreciate being disenfranchised by the state and national Democratic party , I also think that the results of an election held under false pretenses (Florida votes in the Democratic primary will not count) are illegitimate. I voted in the Florida primary, but I know many Florida Democrats who did not bother. For them to be told now that they should have known better than to be hoodwinked by the statements of the DNC that the near unanimous decision that Florida would lose its delegates if the primary were held early beyond belief. And for our Republican governor to tell the Democratic party whether and how Florida voters ought to be represented at the Democratic convention is the height of absurdity, let alone gall.

Now we have State Senator Nan Rich, a Clinton backer, who wants to introduce a bill that if Florida delegates are not seated at the convention, the eventual Democratic candidate will not appear on the November ballot in Florida at all! In other words, hand Clinton her Florida delegates so she clinch win the party's nomination, or Florida voters won't be allowed to vote for Obama if he is the party's nominee. Not surprisingly, Republicans love the idea and say they will support the bill.

As for having another primary at this stage of the game, there is no way that the Republican governor and legislature are going to pay for it. Sen. Bill Nelson says the DNC should pay for it, and Howard Dean says that Florida knowingly broke the rules and the party shouldn't have to subsidize that decision.

There is apparently a suggestion being floated by the party that a new primary be financed by very rich private donors. I do not think this sets a very good precedent in a democracy--if you don't like the results of an election, get some rich guys to pay for holding a new one. Think about it...

I don't trust a Florida Democratic caucus--who would, after reading Rich's suggestion, and knowing that Nelson is firmly in Clinton's camp? I've heard a rumor we may receive mail-in ballots. It's okay with me (it will still cost alot of money and leaves open the question of who will pay for it), but it's obvious that Hillary Clinton's campaign staff and supporters will contest the election and insist that she was cheated if she receives less than the number of delegates she has laid claim to in the original primary.

How ironic that if Florida had held its Democratic primary after Super Tuesday instead of before, it really would have been a major player in deciding the Democratic candidate, without the murky machinations and elusive electoral emendations.

In short, at this point I'm not sure which is worse: being a Democrat or being a Floridian. Being both is the pits.

Posted by: profco | March 10, 2008 12:29 PM

Why, won't Hillary release her tax records ? What are the Clinton's hiding ?
Lie and cheat anything to be elected..
Go Obama....

Posted by: goglesby | March 10, 2008 12:25 PM

Thanks for the link, elsylee28 : )

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 12:15 PM

scott032:

Technically, Obama's campaign ran ads in Georgia that were seen in Florida right before that primary too.

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 12:14 PM


BTW I found a fantastic article...A MUST read for EVERYONE "The Hussein Dynamic" at http://savagepolitics.com.
Brilliant writing that goes beyond what the MSM is feeding us!!!!

Here is an excerpt: "The issue of Barack Obama's religious definition has captivated many Americans to the point were charges of terrorism and counter charges of racism have been thrown into the fray of the discussion, aimed at either side. To many Liberal Americans, whether or not Obama is a Muslim (or was a Muslim) is irrelevant to the feelings of "hope" and "change" that he inspires in them, which they consider to have a higher merit than petty religious or ethnic associations. To many Conservative Americans, the mere allocation of any candidate within the realm of Islam is sufficient reason to vote against him, irrespective of the details that may lie in the penumbra of his personal story. Either way, it is impossible for any citizen to make an intelligent assessment of either perspective, without knowing the details and the relevant information regarding Mr. Obama's past. Unlike the Mainstream Media, who has automatically assumed that Obama has no relation to Islam, in a vague attempt to paint themselves as "reasonable" and "progressives", most thinking citizens should not follow suit. There is ample evidence to make any reasonable citizen conclude that the Obama campaign and the Media have been hiding some crucial elements of this candidate's past that should become widely known and discussed in the open. Let us then ask ourselves; Is Barack Obama a Muslim?" get the rest at http://savagepolitics.com/?p=171

Posted by: elsylee28 | March 10, 2008 12:04 PM

It kills me how everyone wants to jump the candidates on this one. Of course, Hillary wants as many delegates as she can scrounge up. Of course Obama prefers for them to not seat them, especially the Michigan delegates since he was not on the ballot.

Still, blame Howard Dean and the DNC decision-makers. They are the ones who failed to have the foresight to realize that every state's delegates could be vital. And because they likely figured Hillary would win in a walk (which it looked like she would when they made the decision), we now have a controversy. If they had more foresight they would avoided this scenario by always making the primaries count. That, in turn would have led to vigorous compaignin in the two states and primaries that were true tests of the two candidates' relative popularity. Instead we have a vote from a "non-campaign" and a bunch of arguing about whether to count them...what a foolish mess...

Posted by: scott032 | March 10, 2008 12:02 PM

P.S. Hillary DIANE Clinton wanted Florida and Michigan delegates seated BEFORE February 5th as well:

"I hear all the time from people in Florida and Michigan that they want their voices heard in selecting the Democratic nominee."

"I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election, and so I will ask my Democratic convention delegates to support seating the delegations from Florida and Michigan. I know not all of my delegates will do so and I fully respect that decision. But I hope to be President of all 50 states and U.S. territories, and that we have all 50 states represented and counted at the Democratic convention."

"I hope my fellow potential nominees will join me in this."

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=5492

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 12:01 PM

It would NOT be fair to count the Florida votes. Candidates were not allowed to campaign in Florida and that favors the well known candidate. Hillary and Rudy were celebrity candidates with name recognition. Both Hillary and Rudy led all polls. Once the Republicans started to campaign and hear the other candidates Rudy dropped in the polls and lost. Since Obama was not allowed to campaign and introduce himself to voters, Hillary's name recognition kept her at the top. Had Obama been allowed to campaign Hillary might have had the same fate as Rudy. There was a homestead tax issue on the ballot that encouraged homeowners to vote, those without homes most likely didn't vote. The Florida primary favored Hillary because of her name recognition. Those that want to count this vote support Hillary, as someone that lives in Florida Sen. Nelson's comments on TV to count them will have me vote for his opponent next time he runs for office. Everyone knew the rules now the Hillary people want to cheat, they do so at their own risk and the risk of every Democrat in office that thinks it won't effect their future, it will.

Posted by: info4 | March 10, 2008 11:51 AM

ajtiger92:

Would it be "fair" for Republicans / Independents to re-register and "re-vote" for Hillary Clinton too?

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 11:48 AM

gmundenat:

If Alan Keyes was the first "viable" African-American candidate for the GOP this year, would it be O.K. to attack his policies?

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 10:46 AM

Will Republicans get to re-register as Democrats and "re-vote" as well?

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 10:44 AM

When we were kids we played a do over. The Republicans would like this coming election to be nothing more than a pile of doo. The Democrats better decide whats better than a pile of doo real quick otherwise it will be unlucky for all of us if we don't step in it.

dePaul Consiglio

PS. There's is an old American warning: one if by land, two if by sea and three if by coup d'etat.

dePaul Consiglio

Posted by: davinciconsiglio | March 10, 2008 10:43 AM

One of the proposed solutions is for FL and MI voters to cast their votes by mail, similar to what Oregon does.

The advantages of mail-in ballots are increased turnout (it was something like 87 percent in Oregon in 2004), a real paper trail in the event of a recount, convenience for the voters, and lower cost than the voting machines and polling station workers.

The main concern over mail-in ballots is voter fraud, but according to the Oregon Secretary of State in a 2005 Washington Post op-ed, they do rigorous signature-matching. I'm guessing that they have voters sign something that they include with their ballots, and then after verifying the signatures, they separate out the ballots from the signatures.

If the DNC, FL, and MI can ensure that mail-in voting works in June (giving them three months to get it working using the Oregon model), then why not do it?

Posted by: ericp331 | March 10, 2008 10:41 AM

Funny how this whole Hillary demand of Florida and Michigan delegate counting did not appear till after February 5th 2008, even Hillary and her campaign knew the rules back in August of 2007.

Obama and his surrogates should be pushing for a fair solution to Florida and Michigan primaries. Split the pledged delegate count from both Florida and Michigan, and then give Hillary and Obama credit for the Florida popular vote. All superdelegates from Florida and Michigan should have zero voting power! This is way, the people of Florida and Michigan count but the state party insiders don't!

Posted by: ajtiger92 | March 10, 2008 10:39 AM

Sorry, that was a pre-election poll, but the question still remains as to "Uncommitted" votes. The Detroit Free Press, questioned whether the results of the Michigan primary demonstrates anything. None of the major candidates in the Democratic party campaigned at all in Michigan. The Detroit Free Press was also questioning whether Clinton's polling results would have held up during the actual primary. Ann Selzer, the director of The Detroit Free Press-Local 4 Michigan Poll, said, "In my mind, if [Clinton] does not get a majority, then more voters were against her than with her." According to the poll, if the other major contenders were to appear in the ballot, Clinton would receive 46% of the vote, Obama would receive 23%, and Edwards would get 13%. 42% of the uncommitted vote would go to Obama.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Democratic_primary%2C_2008#Results

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 10:24 AM

niyen800w:

In Michigan, however, "Uncommitted" received 31% and "Undecided" received 9% of the vote. So, does Barack HUSSEIN Obama get all of those delegates?

Posted by: JakeD | March 10, 2008 10:21 AM

The DNC let let all the states to move the primaries. Why should Iowa and New Hampshire have the first choices and not others? If none of the other primaries were allowed to move up, then they can penalise Florida and Michigan. To arbitrarily decide against thees two states is discriminatory. In spite of the ban people voted in record numbers. They should be seated.

Posted by: niyen800w | March 10, 2008 10:13 AM

So much for the Clintons being friends to Black America. Words without correponding deeds are empty rhetoric. When the chips are really down, what happens? A concerted and calculated effort to destroy the first viable Black presidential candidate--A Democrat, no less--in the nation's history.

My eyes are now wide, wide open.

Posted by: gmundenat | March 10, 2008 9:51 AM

I do not know what the big deal is over Florida and Michigan. We DO NOT have a Constitutional right to vote in Federal elections. My memory is a bit rusty but I think it is in Article 1. We vote for President at the whim of our respective legislatures. Contrary to what we have been indoctrinated with, we do not live in a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic. The honorable James Madison stated that a democracy was 3 wolves and a lamb deciding on what to have for dinner. He knew that a democracy was mob rule writ large. We are seeing the evidence of this today.

Posted by: jaimielpn | March 10, 2008 9:21 AM

I do not know what the big deal is over Florida and Michigan. We DO NOT have a Constitutional right to vote in Federal elections. My memory is a bit rusty but I think it is in Article 1. We vote for President at the whim of our respective legislatures.

Posted by: jaimielpn | March 10, 2008 9:16 AM

If the delegates are not going to be seated by splitting them evenly, then the candidates should pony up the money needed for new primaries themselves:

http://clarioncallerblog.blogspot.com/
and
http://clarioncaller.blogspot.com

Posted by: jefoster1 | March 10, 2008 9:13 AM

Florida and Michigan are not a dilema.

According to the rules of the Party they were penalilzed for moving up their primary election dates. Why should that change now?

I have been a life-long Democrat. I will become Independent. You are all a bunch of cowards to help Hilliary cheat by changing the rules in the middle of the game. I refuse to follow you anywhere.

Hilliary is a selfish power hungry woman. She is willing to say and do anything to win. She is just like Bush. Hilliary does not care what the American people want.

Who needs someone with 35 years of political experience. That is what is wrong with her she is a despicable politician!

Posted by: Denice1 | March 10, 2008 9:12 AM

I don't think it's fair to disenfranchise the two million people who voted in the FL and MI primaries.

Posted by: zukermand | March 10, 2008 9:05 AM

Michigan/Florida Democrats broke the rules they signed off on. No silly re-votes either. Therefore they forfeit representation at the convention. To do otherwise will bring division and resentment to an already disfunctional Democratic Party.

Posted by: rikkirat | March 10, 2008 7:51 AM

LET'S TALK ABOUT RULES AND STUFF.....

And, let's talk about playing by those rules.

We believe in "law and order". And, we believe in a playing field that's level for all that play in the game. In this particular instance, we've decided to delve in the rules as they relate to the Nominating Process for candidates for President of the United States of America.

California has a "Closed Nominating Process". Georgia has an "Open Nominating Process". California stipulates that Republicans vote in the "Republican Primary", while Democrats vote in the "Democratic Primary". And, Independents, well you can vote in the primaries for proposed laws, local candidates and stuff. But, your "Independent" ballot won't allow you to vote "Republican" or "Democrat" as to the Presidential Nomination.

Why? 'Cause that's the rule.

Ralph Nader just threw his hat in the ring for President. Nobody asked him to do so. He didn't ask anybody if he could. He has that prerogative. But, he can't cause the various states to "re-do" their Primaries and Caucuses and stuff.

Speaking of caucuses, we've never been in one. California didn't have them. Maryland didn't have them. And, our newest home state, Georgia, well we don't believe in them down here. Arkansas, we were way too young to vote, when we were born and lived there. Hey, we were too young to vote when we got drafted into the Army-but that's another story.

We're rather disturbed by some of the stuff boiling around the Michigan and Forida, "disenfranchisement" issue. What disenfranchisement are we talking about. Both states have duly elected state officials. Both states have duly functioning Political Party organizations. The states elected to have their primary nominating elections in CLEAR violation of party rules.

The Republican party chose to "punish" its party folk one way, for violating the rules. The Democrats chose to punish their violators, in another way. And, the Independents, and Ralph Naders had absolutely no say in the matter. California had no say in the matter. Neither did Maryland, and Arkansas.

Why not? "Cause that's the rules.

NEXT CASE....

The struggle continues, until we succeed-and we shall,-YES WE CAN!!!!!

Henry T. Wilfong Jr., MBA, CPA
President, NASDB

Posted by: hwilfongjr | March 10, 2008 7:19 AM

What hubris the Clinton's show, offering the front runner the VP slot. gimme a break - you're talking about a double standard, Hillary. Democrats will want nothing of it. Your name is no longer special to us - you sullied it when your campaign started slinging mud.

Posted by: maq1 | March 10, 2008 6:52 AM


Hillary is a muslim on her mother's side.

Rodham rhymes with Saddam.

This is proof that she's a muslim.

Posted by: Rubiconski | March 10, 2008 4:16 AM

This isn't about Clinton, Obama, or McCain - this is about one of the most basic tenets of our constitution: the right to vote.

Things have been screwy - especially in Florida - since Jeb Bush used his influence to tamper with the votes on behalf of Bush Jr. so long ago now.

And for those who are so eager to see Obama elected that you would support this travesty and violation against the rights of the American people, please remember this: the democratic voters in Florida had no say in this. It was the republican governor and the republican controlled legislature in Florida that made the decision to move the date up. And, ironically, when handling out penalties, they stripped the republicans of only 1/2 their delegates, but the democrats were stripped of all.

Whether you're a McCain supporter, an Obama supporter, or a Hillary supporter, if you believe in Democracy and our basic rights (so precious these days), then you should demand voters in Florida and Michigan are counted. It is, ultimately, our right to vote which protects our individual freedoms - not our military, not our police, not our politicians(clearly), and not our judges. It is with our votes that we choose these officials. If we lose that power, we lose everything.

America is a democracy. Let's keep it that way. Demand Florda and Michigan have a voice, one way or another.

Posted by: Torch2008 | March 10, 2008 4:13 AM

There is a simple easy solution
DREAM TICKET
You know it makes sense

Posted by: walker1 | March 10, 2008 2:58 AM

Rezko Connections: More Reasons Obama Should Worry
by John Batchelor
Posted 03/06/2008 ET

Why does Barack Obama need to worry about a previously unknown court filing that revealed, on the second day of jury selection in the trial of Antoin "Tony" Rezko, that a prosecution witness accuses Mr. Rezko to have bribed the Iraqi Coalition Provisional Authority Minister of Electricity Aiham Alsammarae with $1.5 million for a bogus contract in 2005?

The reason Mr. Obama need worry is that the contract at issue, $50 million for an Illinois-based private security guard enterprise called Companion Security, turns up in Iraqi government court documents in the pursuit of $650 million stolen from the CPA between 2003 and 2006 by Mr. Alsammarae. "There are lots of names of companies in the States that they used to steal from us," a Baghdad official with full knowledge of the case says of the four-inch-thick file of court documents that convicted Mr. Alsammarae in October 2006; "and here is Companion."

The reason Mr. Obama need worry is that Mr. Rezko's accuser, Daniel Mahru, is not only a government witness in this present Rezko trial, but also was the lawyer for the original Companion Security deal and is reported to have pushed another Rezko partner in Companion Security, Daniel T. Frawley, to revive the Companion contract in the spring and summer of 2006 in conversation with both Governor Rod Blagojevich's office and Senator Barack Obama's office.

........more........ @

http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-barak-obama-rezko-revelations.html

Posted by: elme13 | March 10, 2008 2:17 AM


Rezko Connections: More Reasons Obama Should Worry
by John Batchelor
Posted 03/06/2008 ET


Why does Barack Obama need to worry about a previously unknown court filing that revealed, on the second day of jury selection in the trial of Antoin "Tony" Rezko, that a prosecution witness accuses Mr. Rezko to have bribed the Iraqi Coalition Provisional Authority Minister of Electricity Aiham Alsammarae with $1.5 million for a bogus contract in 2005?

The reason Mr. Obama need worry is that the contract at issue, $50 million for an Illinois-based private security guard enterprise called Companion Security, turns up in Iraqi government court documents in the pursuit of $650 million stolen from the CPA between 2003 and 2006 by Mr. Alsammarae. "There are lots of names of companies in the States that they used to steal from us," a Baghdad official with full knowledge of the case says of the four-inch-thick file of court documents that convicted Mr. Alsammarae in October 2006; "and here is Companion."

The reason Mr. Obama need worry is that Mr. Rezko's accuser, Daniel Mahru, is not only a government witness in this present Rezko trial, but also was the lawyer for the original Companion Security deal and is reported to have pushed another Rezko partner in Companion Security, Daniel T. Frawley, to revive the Companion contract in the spring and summer of 2006 in conversation with both Governor Rod Blagojevich's office and Senator Barack Obama's office.

........more........ @

http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-barak-obama-rezko-revelations.html

Posted by: elme13 | March 10, 2008 2:11 AM

rules are rules, they (both sides) agreed to abide by them. Hillary was touted by the mainstream press to be the front runner. When Obama came along that changed. She now wants to change the rules. Obama can win the "Big" states, just wait till he finally gets the nomination. A lot of people may not know this, and it is not mentioned on the news, but some of the big states allow almost everyone to vote by an absentee ballot, a long time ahead of the primary, and it is a royal pain to change, if you can. So her lead would not have been as substantial as she got in some states. I also don't like the cherry picking that she is doing in her campaigning. Obama is doing his best to go to each state for the primary or caucus. I mean what is with the negativity with the clinton camp? All her supporters need to lay off the"kool aide". The Repubs can only win by siphoning off the independents. If hillary keeps trashing Obama, the dems will lose that opportunity..to McShame. Obama is changing the dynamics of the process, and that really frightens the "old" guard. Us geezers need to pay attention, we are fast becoming irrelevant, like the dinosaurs that some of us our. Kudos to all the new people that Obama has brought into the process, and shame on us old ones that are too short sighted to get out of the way. End of rant

Posted by: woodard3 | March 10, 2008 12:46 AM

The DNC may not accept the citizens of Florida & Michigan's voice at there convention but come November they can't suppress there voice any longer. I think Florida & Michigan citizens will at that time make very clear there voice! As will there fellow citizens all across this country who believe in a citizens right to have there voice heard and there vote count. The DNC will regret having gotten away with a bad & illegal rule that is in conflict with the constitution of the United States. Our government leaders may not want to take on the issue because they are all part of a party but we the people know wrong when we see it and come November we the people will let the DNC know they should have counted the Florida & Michigan votes and chosen delegates in a open and fair election that was conducted by the government.

Illegal because

1. 2008 first time Primary process is a nation wide process

2 tax payer money used to pay for elections and it crossed state lines to conduct all phases of those state elections

3. Presidents only have come from primaries

4. if the rule had been against a minority not having a right to vote in the primary process or there chosen delegate seated for representation at the conventions do you think the US government would have step in for there voters rights? YES IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Posted by: snags85 | March 9, 2008 10:49 PM

BARACK OBAMA,

GO TO EUROPE !

After your impressive win in Mississippi, next Tuesday...don't go directly to Pennsylvania...as is expected (let Hillary do that)
Instead go on a whirl-wind one week tour of European capitals....officially to "meet with leaders", but in reality to "meet the people"...(or rather, let them meet you"), i.e. monopolize the news with you being photographed/filmed with thousands (tens of thousands) of European supporters....(and that will happen; they love you) ...hands reaching out to you.....American flags..."je t'aime Obama", etc. signs.
Go to Berlin! Go to London! Go to Paris! Go to Madrid! Go to Rome!
(Hillary can go to Pennsylvania)
Everyday on the television (of the world, as well as America) will be the images of you being surrounded by thousands (tens of thousands) of adoring fans...every newspaper will be full of the reportage.

In one week you can go from "Democratic Nominee" to World Leader.
America can go from being hated to being loved
And then, when you return...after having monopolized the news for an entire week...after you've shown how your presidency (and America) will be seen by the rest of the world.
You can cash in your delegates, sign-up your new "super delegates" and become the Democratic nominee (and the next president)

THINK OUT OF THE BOX ! GO TO EUROPE (and win)

Posted by: kevinlarmee | March 9, 2008 10:28 PM

maq1-Get real. The Clintons are NOT the ones who are trying to change anything. They won the Elections. They are happy with the voting that occurred. So am I.
Want the Delegates? Fine!
The Clinton's deserve them. They, after all, won. :-)

Barack Insane O'Bombing, is the Clown trying to get another election/vote in! :-(

I, after the RepubliCANS suffered crossover voting(By Independents-Riiiiiight!), DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT! :-(

Then:

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

What a Sloooooowwwwww Day! :-/

Posted by: rat-the | March 9, 2008 9:34 PM

Why do the Clintons have such problems following the rules? If we learned anything from the Bush-Clinton era, shouldnt it have been that presidents that dont follow the rules can wreak serious harm at home and abroad?

i guess not. the clinton fanatics out there continue to cling to the idea that they can turn this, and enlist obama as a VP. entertaining this delusion only does more harm to the party with every passing day.

Posted by: maq1 | March 9, 2008 7:53 PM

CLINTON CAMPAIGN FINANCE COMITTEE MEMBER SWITCHES TO OBAMA

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/9/2038/37655/750/473190


Clinton campaign finance committee member switches to Obama Hotlist
by Tanya [Subscribe]
Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:24:21 PM PDT

SHE REVEALS THAT THE CLINTON CAMPAIGN PASSED THE LEGAL DONOR LIMIT IN DECEMBER.

SHE NOW IS JOINING THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN

SPREAD THIS NEWS AROUND.

Posted by: laplumelefirmament | March 9, 2008 7:41 PM

LOL! Dimocrat Socialists! :-o

EVERY VOTE COUNTS*

* Except when WE decide WE want to obtain different results based on our own decisions regardless of stated Rules, and/or official Regulations, or any Outcomes of said Elections that might yield results other than those desired by the DNC, and Howling Dean.;~)

Hey, we're LAWYERS! What do YOU Expect? :-)

Posted by: rat-the | March 9, 2008 4:51 PM

Florida delegates should be counted and seated at the convention. All names were on the Florida ballot.

Michigan should hold another primary.

This game is really already over. Hillary has won. Obama failed to close the deal.

Obama has proven himself unelectable.

If you can't win in states like Ohio, you can't win the Presidency. In Ohio, Obama outspent Hillary 3 to 1 and still won ONLY 5 out of 88 counties, those with the largest number of black votes, the ONLY voting group Obama won. It's that simple.

Hillary has proven she can win big in the big states that are the must wins for the Dems in November. Hillary is clearly the strongest candidate for the general election.

GO HILLARY!!

Posted by: TAH1 | March 9, 2008 4:29 PM

Florida should be seated as is since the outcome would probably be the same.
Michigan is diffferent and should hold a new primary which would cost that much.
Obama is affraid of primaries in those states becayse they will prove he's not popular acroos the board. Clinton may be is rightfully leary of caucuses since they are not representative of register democrats.

Posted by: hhkeller | March 9, 2008 4:04 PM

Re-Vote Michigan - that will be the final word on Reagen Dems and Obama was not on the ballot. In Florida they can halve Clinton's lead (40 to 20) by giving some support to Obama with some sort of formula. The supers from both states can then come into play.

That should only cost 10 million and give some final conclusion to the elections one way or the other or maybe not. Not seating Florida and Michigan is a sure path to defeat in November. As this is a close election (2 percent in votes) and we care about the peoples will you have to count both states in a 'democratic' fashion if you believe in 2000. Although some people just say what ever is good for there side i.e. VRWC.

If you want to quote rules at least know what the rules are.

Posted by: mul | March 9, 2008 3:46 PM

What is NOT being addressed, is the FACT that many "Independents" that would have otherwise voted for a Dimocrat, CROSSED OVER, interfered with God's Own Party's results, and Should Not, and CANNOT, NOW, vote in the Dim Choice!

Want the Delegates to Count? Count them. The VOTE WAS REAL! :-)

Unless, the newest Dimocrat Socialist Line is "No Votes Count, until we decide they do, and they are the way we like them!" :-(

Posted by: rat-the | March 9, 2008 3:42 PM

Whatever they do, they can better solve it quick and easy, otherwise these "leads" will not last for long against the Republicans;

Obama vs. McCain-
The Google Effect:

http://newsusa.myfeedportal.com/viewarticle.php?articleid=48

Posted by: davidmwe | March 9, 2008 3:20 PM

I don't believe a "re-vote" is fair to all the other States who played by the rules.

Posted by: JakeD | March 9, 2008 2:47 PM

Fairest, simplest, least costly solution, taking into account all aguments for and against:

Florida and Michigan are to have no influence on the nomination because they broke the rules. But they are too important not to be at the convention. SOLUTION: Seat both delegations split 50-50, Obama and Clinton. Punished but present. No cost. Done.

Posted by: mauialoha | March 9, 2008 1:51 PM

Obama's efforts to connect to the Republican Party, specifically Bush, and Dick Chaney, of the Halliburton Company, dates back to the Presidents Grandfather, Prescott Bush, and indeed Chaney was once an executive officer of Halliburton.

The American military pounds Iraq with Artillary, bombs, and the like, destroying large sections of cities, and infra-structures, then Halliburton comes in to rebuild. Halliburton and Halliburton associated companies have raked in ten's of billions.

Obama is just like the BIG HALIBURTAN. Haliburton has contracted to build detention centers in the U.S. similiar to the one in Quantanammo Bay, Cuba. Halliburton does nothing to earn the Two Dollars for each meal an American Serviceman in Iraq eats.

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

Halliburton was scheduled to take control of the Dubai Ports in The United Arab Emiirate. The deal was canceled when Bush was unable to affect the transfer of the American Ports.

Now we see what some might suspect as similiar financial escapading from the Democrats.

Two years ago, Iraq's Ministry of Electricity gave a $50 million contract to a start-up security company - Companion- owned by now-indicted businessman (TONY REZKO) Tony Rezko and a onetime Chicago cop, Daniel T. Frawley, to train Iraqi power-plant guards in the United States. An Iraqi leadership change left the deal in limbo. Now the company, Companion Security, is working to revive its contract.
Involved along with Antoin "Tony" Rezco, long time friend and neighbor of Democratic Presidential hopeful Barack Obama, and former cop Daniel T. Frawley, is Aiham Alsammarae. Alsammarae was accused of financial corruption by Iraqi authorities and jailed in Iraq last year before escaping and returning here.

LIKE FATHER LIKE SON --
Recently, Obama's campaign staff have been vetted by the IRS to disclose his connection to the criminal money generating underworld. Besides, his connections to the REZCO MAFIA types, his up-coming tax fraud charges -- Obama needs to disclose why he is a MUSLIM "PATWANG-FWEEE" and disclose Obama's MUSLIM Farrakhan mob connection to Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. Its minister, and Obama's spiritual adviser, is the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. In 1982, the church launched Trumpet Newsmagazine; Wright's daughters serve as publisher and executive editor. Every year, the magazine makes awards in various categories. Last year, it gave the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to a man it said "truly epitomized greatness." That man is Louis Farrakhan. Farrakhan and Chicago's Trinity United Church are trumpeting Barack Obama AKA Barack Hussein Obama as the second coming of the messiah. Obama should stop suppoting our intervention in IRAQ. It's time to introduce this false, fake Xerox - X box Obama and invite the self-indicting thief plagiarizing pipsqueke "GLORK" Xerox - X box to meet the Buffalo "GAZOWNT-GAZIKKA" Police Department Buffalo Creek. He is MAD!!! --

OBAM YOU'RE NO JFK --

"GLORK" Obama looks like Alfred E. Newman: "Tales Calculated To Drive You." He is a MUSLIM "Glork" He's MAD!!! Alfred E. Neuman is the fictional mascot of Mad. The face had drifted through American pictography for decades before being claimed by Mad editor Harvey Kurtzman after he spotted it on the bulletin board in the office of Ballantine Books editor Bernard Shir-Cliff, later a contributor to various magazines created by Kurtzman.
Obama needs to disclose why he is a MUSLIM "PATWANG-FWEEE" and stop suppoting our intervention in IRAQ. It's time to introduce this false, fake "GLORK" Xerox - X box Obama and invite the self-indicting thief plagiarizing pipsqueke Xerox - X box to meet the Buffalo "GAZOWNT-GAZIKKA" Police Department Buffalo Creek.

Michelle Obama should be ashamed.

"GLORK" Michelle Obama should be ashamed of her separatist-racist connection to Farrakhan and Chicago's Trinity United Church trumpeting Barack Obama AKA Barack Hussein Obama as the second coming of the messiah. If Michelle Obama new what her husband -- the Hope-A-Dope, Fonster Monster -- Barack Obama AKA Barack Hussein Obama did in Harlem, she would wash her wide-open, Hus-suey loving MUSILM mouth out, with twenty-four (24) mule-team double-cross X-boX-BorraX. He is a MUSLIM "Glork" It's time to introduce this false, fake "GLORK" Xerox - X box Obama and invite the self-indicting thief plagiarizing pipsqueke Xerox - X box to meet the Buffalo "GAZOWNT-GAZIKKA" Police Department Buffalo Creek. He's MAD!!!

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

Posted by: jreno8 | March 9, 2008 1:35 PM

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