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Florida Revote Plan Scuttled, Michigan Plan Stalls

By Dan Balz
Florida Democrats reversed course Monday and declared dead their plans to hold a do-over presidential primary to settle the dispute over whether their delegation to the national convention in Denver will be seated.

Karen Thurman, Democratic Party chair in Florida, announced the decision in an e-mail message Monday afternoon, saying thousands of people had responded negatively to her proposal for a vote-by-mail primary in early June.

"We spent the weekend reviewing your messages, and while your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again," she wrote. "So we won't. A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it."

That leaves the fate of the state's delegation in the hands of the Democratic National Committee and the campaigns of Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton, who captured the most votes when Florida held a primary on Jan. 29, and Barack Obama.

Meanwhile, efforts by the Michigan legislature to pass a measure setting up a do-over primary in that state have stalled. Legislators are awaiting advance approval by the two presidential campaigns and Obama officials have not yet said whether they approve or disapprove of the new plan.

The Clinton campaign put public pressure on Obama by issuing a statement in the name of Harold Ickes, the senior official overseeing delegate operations, warning against scuttling a do-over primary in Michigan. "If Barack Obama's campaign stands in the way of a new vote, he will be putting his own political interests ahead of the people of Michigan," Ickes statement said.

For more details on the Florida situation, click here.

By Web Politics Editor  |  March 17, 2008; 6:48 PM ET
Categories:  B_Blog , Primaries , The Democrats  
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Comments

Count the Florida votes. Although neither technically campaigned here, all were on the ballot, and they were certainly both on TV 24 hours a day from the campaigning in other states. If they refuse to seat the Florida delegates or settle on some bogus 50/50 split, they might as well cede Florida to McCain. How about in exchange Florida offers the resignation of Karen Thurman and all other top officials of the Florida Democratic Party? Sounds fair.

Hold the revote in Michigan. These voters deserve to be heard. The Democrats certainly can't afford to give both of these big states to the Republicans.

Posted by: Mudrock63 | March 19, 2008 7:16 AM | Report abuse

Count the Florida votes. Although neither technically campaigned here, all were on the ballot, and they were certainly both on TV 24 hours a day from the campaigning in other states. If they refuse to seat the Florida delegates or settle on some bogus 50/50 split, they might as well cede Florida to McCain. How about in exchange Florida offers the resignation of Karen Thurman and all other top officials of the Florida Democratic Party? Sounds fair.

Hold the revote in Michigan. These voters deserve to be heard. The Democrats certainly can't afforde to give both of these big states to the Republicans.

Posted by: Mudrock63 | March 19, 2008 7:16 AM | Report abuse


NO VOTERS SHOULD BE DISENFRANCHISED!!!

However, it's interesting that so many Floridians keeps saying that they did not choose to move their primaries and they should not be held accountable for the DNC's penalties. Legislatures are elected by the people of the STATE that trust them to make decisions on their behalf. Therefore, all of that jagon is irrelevant. We didn't elect thier lawmakers! THEY DID!

The votes should be counted but the elections should be held fairly and in order. It seems that no one can create a fair solution that does not favor either candidate. If no equal compromise can be made, then the default solution should reign and the delegates should not be seated.

IT is FAIR TO BOTH CAMPAIGNS since the penalties were renedered and agreed upon by BOTH candidates before the elections were held and BEFORE the race was so close.

stevenalpert: if this dispute causes you to realign your ENTIRE political beliefs and become a republican after 52years, then you have much bigger personal issues to worry about than the campaigns.

Posted by: rollins | March 19, 2008 4:10 AM | Report abuse

The only ones who continue to push the kitchen sink strategy for Hillary and all her attacks that come with it, are now down to 3 groups:

1) the really, really hardcore hillary supporters (majority older feminists)

2) the media that whor*s itself for some ratings from a contested election whether it's actually still close or not... as long as people may believe that it is possible to pray for a miracle...
Fox news fits in this category

3) rush limbaugh listening republicans hoping for a "rush effect" that weakens the democratic party through a protracted dirty politics campaign between the remaining democratic candidates. these are the strategic mischive-makers raiding the Democratic polling booths by registering Democratic just to vote for Hillary to make her prayer of a hope believable...
Fox news again fits in this category.

Oh mighty Clinton, dost thou lie so low?

Posted by: eljefejesus | March 19, 2008 3:25 AM | Report abuse

Florida & Michigan = Class action lawsuit against Democratic National Committee

Posted by: glamourchild1 | March 18, 2008 8:07 PM | Report abuse

Still, not one of you "rules are rules" people have been able to explain why the DNC and Dean changed the "rules" after the law was changed. And, you never will be able to because it will expose the lot of you as hypocrites.

That's OK. Their "my way or the highway even though your hands are tied now" attitude will bite them in the rear come November when the GOP has the last laugh in Florida, and probably the nation, after this extreme show of ineptitude.

Also, as I have been waiting for a simple answer to an inquiry for over three weeks now, I guess the national Democratic Party won't respond to their own members if they live in Florida, either. I know the 'contact us' page says "we'll respond to you shortly," but that must just be for residents of certain states. The pledge they signed must've included a footnote to not address the concerns of lifelong members based upon their residence.

Brilliant recruitment and retention plan there, DNC. Get angry at party bigwigs and screw over the rank and file. Way to take a state that's teetering on the verge of going blue and push it right back into the red. Damned fools...

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 18, 2008 6:36 PM | Report abuse

Harold Ickes-old and corrupted by the system...Goodbye Harold

Posted by: royals1 | March 18, 2008 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Harold Ickes-old and corrupted by the system...Goodbye Harold

Posted by: royals1 | March 18, 2008 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Madame Speaker:

I am troubled by your comments this past Sunday to several news outlets regarding the Democratic primary.

First, I think you are incorrect and do the function of the Automatic Delegates a disservice by saying, "If the votes of the superdelegates overturn what's happened in the elections, it would be harmful to the Democratic Party". By over-dramatically implying that the popular vote should not be a factor, you are clearly not being the objective leader that you must be at this time (in particular). In fact, you are improperly inserting yourself in a process at a time where you are risking alienating essentially half of the Democratic base that has and will vote.

Surely you know that the primary process is not nearly as clear-cut or simplistic as you stated, especially when it looks to come down to a an effective tie between two candidates. With a mix caucuses and state-wide primary votes and a mix of states that are more or less strategically important to the November election, the role of the Automatic Delegates MUST be to thoughtfully decide which of the the two candidates has the better chance of defeating the GOP. These critical delegates, in fact, have been established to play a role where judgment MUST be exercised in their ultimate decision, INDEPENDENT of the pledged delegate count.

Finally, your dismissal of the possibility of a joint ticket is another bad call on your part. Surely you appreciate the level of passion of each candidates' respective supporters. We are in a historically unprecedented primary, and all options must be on the table.

Frankly, I was deeply disappointed by your remarks and, ironically, the risk THEY pose for the Democratic Party.

I urge you to retract or at least clarify your remarks.

Respectfully,

JPM

Posted by: jpm321 | March 18, 2008 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Well, this lifelong Democrat will not continue to belong to this party that is undemocratically anointing a candidate who can't win. At least the Republicans love their country and would not elect someone who hated it.

Posted by: Mabw | March 18, 2008 3:23 PM | Report abuse

I think the democrats should nominae John Edwards as their candidate. The media has played Obama as some sort saint and the GOP is going to eat him alive. He isn't the best candidate and the more I learn about him I am convince he is the worse candidate that the democratic party can nominate. If it is Obama my family will vote for McCain in 2008. Obama is plans will place this country out of control from an economic, health care and immigration position. Taxes at the state level will increase and more jobs loss to globalization. Clinton is better than Obama but not by much. Her plans are some what better but clearly her immigration position will have middle class america losing jobs to globalization that Reagan era started and that every US President since has continued. Since Obama is playing his race card and Clinton gender, just nominate Edwards so the democrats can win in 2008

Posted by: junebug9257 | March 18, 2008 2:32 PM | Report abuse

I think the democrats should nominae John Edwards as their candidate. The media has played Obama as some sort saint and the GOP is going to eat him alive. He isn't the best candidate and the more I learn about him I am convince he is the worse candidate that the democratic party can nominate. If it is Obama my family will vote for McCain in 2008. Obama is plans will place this country out of control from an economic, health care and immigration position. Taxes at the state level will increase and more jobs loss to globalization. Clinton is better than Obama but not by much. Her plans are some what better but clearly her immigration position will have middle class america losing jobs to globalization that Reagan era started and that every US President since has continued. Since Obama is playing his race card and Clinton gender, just nominate Edwards so the democrats can win in 2008

Posted by: junebug9257 | March 18, 2008 2:32 PM | Report abuse

This is insanity. Here's what happened.

(1) The National Party said "Florida and Michigan -- if you have your votes early, and buck our negotiated system, we won't seat your delegation"

(2) Florida and Michigan said "Screw you. We'll do what we want and have beauty contests instead of real primaries."

If the Florida and Michigan Dems have ANY issues, it is with their state party who decided to screw them. Complain to them and take your medicine -- you don't get any damn delegates.

Posted by: MShake | March 18, 2008 2:16 PM | Report abuse

THE MICHIGAN RE-VOTE PROPOSAL IS RISIBLE

THEY STATE THAT TO ENSURE THE FUNDING, VOTING WILL NOT BE DONE BEFORE THE 4 12 MILLION ARE IN THE BANK,

They state that to ensure the still not existing funding, voting will not hap0pen before the $ 12 Million are in the bank.

SO, IF THE FUND ARE NOT RAISED IN TIME, WHO
WILL PAY ALL THE EXPENSE OF THE PREPARATORY TASKS BEFORE THE POLLS ??

OR DO THEY PLAN TO BEGIN THE THESE TASKS A F T E R THE FUND ARE COMPLETED ???

AND WHY THIS INSISTENCE ON THE RE-VOTE, IF THE RECENT POLLS SHOW A DEAD DRAW BETWEEN
HILLARY AND OBAMA, THEREFORE ANY RESULT ONLY WOULD SHOW A MEANINGLESS DELEGATES
DIFFERENCE ??

CAMINITO
CAMINITO

Posted by: caminito | March 18, 2008 2:01 PM | Report abuse

And the bottom line is.....we are still left with a present reality that Democratic Party rules cause and "justify" the non-counting of millions of Democratic Party primary votes.

Some "democratic" party!

Even if not for this cycle, the law should step in and require every American primary vote be counted on a one-person one-vote basis.

Let the partisan types frolic happily in their adversarial disputations, but keep their playing field within boundaries that protect basic American values like the ones that say every vote should count and every American should count equally.

We need new laws! Wake up Congressmen and state legislators--one-person one-vote across the board prevents a repeat of this particular nightmare.

Posted by: IssyWise | March 18, 2008 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Did you see that chairperson's heft? Wasn't the left-wing nanny-staters' recent target obesity? And what happened to Joe Garcia? Carrying bedpans for Fidel? Florida shows again why Spain refused to take it back: Hillarrhoid swamprat loonies.

Posted by: sawargos | March 18, 2008 12:09 PM | Report abuse

Did you see that chairperson's heft? Wasn't the left-wing nanny-staters' recent target obesity? And what happened to Joe Garcia? Carrying bedpans for Fidel? Florida shows again why Spain refused to take it back: Hillarrhoid swamprat loonies.

Posted by: sawargos | March 18, 2008 12:09 PM | Report abuse

It appears there is a misconception that the Democratic Party moved the primary date. It was the REPUBLICAN governor and REPUBLICAN state legislators who moved the primary date, even though the Democratic Party begged them not to. In essence, the Republican Party has once again disenfranchised the voters of Florida.
Senator Potter has an excellent plan: seat the delegates based on the popular vote, and do not seat the superdelegates. (Finally a voice of reason).

Posted by: zanne1 | March 18, 2008 11:16 AM | Report abuse

Florida and Michigan shouldn't be seated. Every state knew the rules and all but two followed those rules. Now the ones who broke the rules want their say. They should have thought of that before they jumped their elections forward.

If the elections had been held with all candidates campaigning in each then the results would have been different and maybe even different candidates would now be in the race. It is too late for them to regret their decisions. They made their choices and now they get to live with the consequences.

Posted by: kakgrw | March 18, 2008 9:26 AM | Report abuse

The Paster Wright says:

God D Michigan and Florida

This is a case of the chickens coming home to roost.

------------------------------------

HRC people are smart - we told you so - we told you so.

Obama should have run a real campane in 2012 2016. But he felt the "urgency of now".

The less voting the Better for Obama.

Posted by: mul | March 18, 2008 8:53 AM | Report abuse

stonehinged wrote, "I would like an apology from Dr. Dean for his overbearing dictatorial "My-way-or-the-highway" rule over the DNC."

If Dean were indeed dictatorial he wouldn't even allow all this talk of do-overs. The only ones to blame are the elected representatives of FL and MI. The voters of these states should impeach their leaders instead of blaming DNC for having any rules or other states for playing by the rules.

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 18, 2008 7:36 AM | Report abuse

rat-the, not happening, dude! How is McCain going to "take care of business" when he (by his own words) don't understand the economy and is willing to take on a near-trillion dollar war for the next century? I think you visions of GOP grandeur are, at best, delusional. The war, the credit crunch, the subprime mortgage mess, the gasoline-gouging by oil companies, etc., are the very things McCain has no clue about (remember, it's the economy).

Posted by: meldupree | March 18, 2008 7:32 AM | Report abuse

The Republicans in Florida have outmaneuvered the Democrats one more time. Florida's Republican governor and legislature were responsible for the primary being moved forward. The names of all nominees stayed on the ballot and no candidate officially campaigned in the state. Both the New York Times and the Washington Post had articles prior to the election stating that the Obama campaign was in Florida placing mannequin-like posters of Senator Obama near polling places. However, no candidate officially campaigned in the state. Given that it was not the Florida Democratic Party that moved the election forward but the Republican legislature, the Florida vote should be counted "as is". It is unfair to penalize Florida Democrats for the political maneuvers of the governor and legislature. If Florida is not seated, and if this problem isn't resolved quickly, Florida will be a "cakewalk" for McCain in November. Clever Republicans! Posted by Wilson

Posted by: wcowan1 | March 18, 2008 7:25 AM | Report abuse

The Republicans in Florida have outmaneuvered the Democrats one more time. Florida's Republican governor and legislature were responsible for the primary being moved forward. The names of all nominees stayed on the ballot and no candidate officially campaigned in the state. Both the New York Times and the Washington Post had articles prior to the election stating that the Obama campaign was in Florida placing mannequin-like posters of Senator Obama near polling places. However, no candidate officially campaigned in the state. Given that it was not the Florida Democratic Party that moved the election forward but the Republican legislature, the Florida vote should be counted "as is". It is unfair to penalize Florida Democrats for the political maneuvers of the governor and legislature. If Florida is not seated, and if this problem isn't resolved quickly, Florida will be a "cakewalk" for McCain in November. Clever Republicans!

Posted by: wcowan1 | March 18, 2008 7:22 AM | Report abuse

meldupree-LOL!

And PRESIDENT McCain is IN Iraq, singing, and Doing-"Taking care of Business"! ;~)

Posted by: rat-the | March 18, 2008 1:26 AM | Report abuse

1) Voters were told FL and MI would not count.
2) 2.6 million voters stayed home because of 1) above.
3) Clinton still held fundraisers, in effect campaigning, when she had agreed not to.
4) Obama purchased national advertising, could not exclude FL from it, got approval to run it anyway - but did not campaign in FL, and because he is basically 'unknown' there this had major effect.
5) Clinton is already well known in Florida so gained advantage from 'no campaigning' by virtue of her name - and that did not stop her, however, from using the media to publicize the fact that she would see to it that the delegates were seated - LONG BEFORE the primary - in order to gain votes in both FL and MI (media, shame on you for letting yourselves be used by Clinton to garner votes in these to states!) That is why she left her name on the ballots in both states - knowing she was going to do this, letting people know they should still go vote.
6)Clinton has manipulated the system - figuring she would use the strength of the Clinton name - to force the issue.

As a result of all the above, and the prohibitive costs involved in do-overs of any kind, not to mention that we really do not want to disenfranchise those voters who stayed home because they were told their votes would not count - I say split both FL and MI 50/50...no advantage to anyone!

Posted by: ndolan622 | March 18, 2008 12:58 AM | Report abuse

1) Voters were told FL and MI would not count.
2) 2.6 million voters stayed home because of 1) above.
3) Clinton still held fundraisers, in effect campaigning, when she had agreed not to.
4) Obama purchased national advertising, could not exclude FL from it, got approval to run it anyway - but did not campaign in FL, and because he is basically 'unknown' there this had major effect.
5) Clinton is already well known in Florida so gained advantage from 'no campaigning' by virtue of her name - and that did not stop her, however, from using the media to publicize the fact that she would see to it that the delegates were seated - LONG BEFORE the primary - in order to gain votes in both FL and MI (media, shame on you for letting yourselves be used by Clinton to garner votes in these to states!) That is why she left her name on the ballots in both states - knowing she was going to do this, letting people know they should still go vote.
6)Clinton has manipulated the system - figuring she would use the strength of the Clinton name - to force the issue.

As a result of all the above, and the prohibitive costs involved in do-overs of any kind, not to mention that we really do not want to disenfranchise those voters who stayed home because they were told their votes would not count - I say split both FL and MI 50/50...no advantage to anyone!

Posted by: ndolan622 | March 18, 2008 12:58 AM | Report abuse

Okay, I live in Florida, and I KNEW MY VOTE WOULD NOT COUNT. I voted as did many Democrats on the Property Tax issue.
So please lets be honest here, WE ALL KNEW IT WAS A BEAUTY CONTEST...we went to the polls because of our property taxes! PERIOD.
The moving up of the primary date was done by the people WE ELECTED...BOTH REPUBLICAN & DEMOCRAT - equally! CUT OUT THE BS.

Now we obey the rules...as we teach our children to do!

Posted by: lee.jazmin | March 18, 2008 12:34 AM | Report abuse

It is beyond reason to think that it is O.K. to ignore the will of the people who VOTED in Florida and Michigan. The decisions made by these 2 states were probably faulty, but the solution CANNOT be to totally ignore this issue and DO NOTHING. I totally agree that a Mail-In voting process is farfetched and too risky, so if seating these delegates is not feasible, then why all of these objections from the Dem. Party in Florida? The best solution is another Primary and it is feasible. I am pretty certain that the people in Florida would not mind it. There have been ample suggestions to finance it and if machines are a problem, then paper ballots could be used and people could volunteer to count.

This issue of "following the rules" is just another ploy by those that DO NOT want to see the results of these 2 states.

Downplaying the issue as some of you are is another ploy to throw all kinds of obstacles.

The reality is that the parties in these states and the DNC are showing total lack of leadership in coming with a solution that takes care of the voters in these 2 states.

Once more, it is so typical of our party to bungle things up and ignoring this issue could cost the election. So, grow up and do what is best for the people.

I am totally aghast at Nancy Pelosi's statements and underhanded preferences. This election is TOO CLOSE to call and she should allow for the process to be completed before trying to influence one way or other.

Posted by: Hispana | March 18, 2008 12:31 AM | Report abuse

The Michigan Democrats created this whole mess in Michigan. Blame the Governor of MIchigan. But Do Not blame the Chairman of the DNC. Don't blame the candidates. The Michigan Democrats should follow the rules and stick with them. You disobey the rules, you pay. There is no other way. You created the mess now you have to live with your own mess. It's your own kitchen. Nobody told you to move the primary forward. You did it and now live with it. The argument that Michigan democrats will stay at home come November does not hold any water. Come on hundreds of thosands of Michigan Democrats will stay at home??. Give me a break. This is a laugh for the Republicans.

Posted by: sbgamatt | March 17, 2008 11:52 PM | Report abuse

Michigan and Florida voters need to take a stand. If we don't do it not it would effect future elections. The DNC violated Michigan and Florida Freedom of Speech rights. The way our citizens were treated was a disgrace. Florida and Michigan is Much as Part of the United States as Iowa and New Hampshire. Why was New Hampshire Not penilized for moving ahead of Nevada? It seems Like The DNC is playing favorites and our citizens get treated like trash. Michigan has the Highest unemployment in the Nation and is crying out for help. STOP Bashing Florida and Michigan WHERE IS THE COMPASSION? We need to help each other in time of need.
Instead of pushing our States aside Like trash why don't we find ways to get our economy back on track. The primary's need to change. Most candidates withdrew before Super Tuesday. The States that voted later didn't have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to vote for ALL the candidates who put their names in the ring. I hope no other state has to go what we've gone through. If they silence Michigan and Florida Who's Next?

Posted by: angelpoo12 | March 17, 2008 11:46 PM | Report abuse

Guess who said immediately after 9/11, "God Gave US 'What We Deserve." Jerry Falwell

The same Jerry Falwell John McCain was fond of courting. The same Jerry Falwell whose Liberty University graduates fill the Bush administration.

The same Jerry Falwell at whose university John McCain has repeatedly chosen to speak.

"God (has) Dam#ed America." was what came out of Falwell's mouth. AND he said that we were at fault.

Posted by: infuse | March 17, 2008 11:39 PM | Report abuse

The Florida Democrats created this whole mess in Florida. Don't blame the Governor of Florida. Don't blame the Chairman of the DNC. Don't blame the candidates. The Florida Democrats should follow the rules and stick with them. You disobey the rules, you pay. There is no other way. You created the mess now you have to live with your own mess. It's your own kitchen. Nobody told you to move the primary forward. You did it and live with it.

Posted by: sbgamatt | March 17, 2008 11:30 PM | Report abuse

Obama supporters might not want to gloat too much.

Its going to come back to bite you, "big time"


Posted by: svreader | March 17, 2008 11:15 PM | Report abuse

White - Wheat or Rye?

Posted by: gandalfthegrey | March 17, 2008 11:09 PM | Report abuse

svreader:

CRY!!!

LOLZ!!!

Posted by: vmunikoti | March 17, 2008 10:58 PM | Report abuse

Hillary supporters are once again adding hubris to these boards. A Democratic Florida state senator introduced the legislation to move the primary forward, not a republican. The DNC then went the extra mile last August and offered the Florida Democrats an opportunity to offer an alternative plan that would conform to the rules. The Florida Democrats refused and then arrogantly held press conferences to flaunt their rebellion.

Then there is the notion that Florida Democrats turned out in large numbers to vote for Hillary. More hubris. The reason so many Floridians turned out for the election was because "Amendment One" was on the ballot. It was related to keeping property taxes low and needed a super majority to pass. Here is what it was:

Florida Amendment One, also known as the "Portability of Save Our Homes", was a statewide ballot measure proposing a new amendment to the Florida Constitution. In a special election on January 29, 2008--timed to coincide with Florida's presidential primary-- the measure passed with 64.4% in favor, and 35.6% opposed.[1]

Due to a 2006 change in Florida's initiative laws, the measure needed 60% approval in order to pass.

In 1992, Floridians passed the original Save Our Homes Amendment. It took effect in 1995.[2] That measure put an annual cap of 3 percent on increases in assessed home values for property taxes.[3] However, when Floridians moved from one home to the next, the new property tax bill would move up to where it would have been without the cap. What this current measure aims to do is allow Floridians to "move" their property tax cap with them.

The amendment, if it passes, will be retroactively effective as of January 1, 2008.


So no matter how Hillary and her supporters spread their hubris, that's still all it is.

Posted by: infuse | March 17, 2008 10:57 PM | Report abuse

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people."

Just Words?

"God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people ... God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Just words?

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye."

Just words?

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

Just words?

"We started the AIDS virus ... as a means of genocide against people of color."

Just words?

In a campaign appearance earlier this month, Sen. Obama said, "I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial."

Yes, just words.

What a fake. Folks, show your indignation regarding these comments by helping Hillary's campaign - even if it is just $5.

https://contribute.hillaryclinton.com/form.html?sc=2390

Posted by: Umbria | March 17, 2008 10:56 PM | Report abuse

Wow, the Obama High Schoolers are out in force! Again ...

The entire Democratic process is to allow and enable ALL people to cast a vote for their candidate. You can talk about rules, people that should have known, etc., etc. But, the fact remains that 2.5 Million people went to the polls in Michigan and Florida in good faith to cast their votes. And, their votes should be counted! The Obama supporters (and they're the only ones disputing the outcomes) who say that Florida and Michigan voters aren't worthy of having their votes counted are doing so strictly for self-serving political purposes and in complete contradiction to the supposedly "new politics" being preached by Obama. Again, the Obama folks continue to demonstrate that they are hypocritical politicians trying to get elected by any means possible, even if it means disenfranchising millions of legitimate voters in Michigan and Florida.

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 10:54 PM | Report abuse

svreader, Hillary's campaign is going the way of her healthcare reform plan: down in flames!

Btw, where are her notes and her 2000-2006 income tax returns? What's up with that puffed up foreign policy experience she keeps trying to hock to the electorate?

Posted by: meldupree | March 17, 2008 10:46 PM | Report abuse

Dedicated to svreader (to the tune of Amy Winehouse's "Rehab")

Hillary wants a conversation, and we say no, no, no!

She say, "I wanna be President and money's spent!

No, No, No!

We want the Obama man, 'cause he tells us "Yes We Can!"

We want no more conversation, and we say "NO! NO! NO!"

Catchy little diddy, right svreader? Enjoy it! (Attribution: Tune: Amy Winehouse. Words: meldupree, 2008) LOL

Posted by: meldupree | March 17, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

"...But in the end,it was the state parties that refused to see the potential for this castrophe. They are the true buffoons in this comedy of errors."

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 10:30 PM

I don't know about that inasmuch as the state party was as much a bystander to setting the date as individual voters were. To my knowledge, only one of the FDP officers is in the state legislature.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 10:37 PM | Report abuse

No svreader, stick a fork in Hillary, she's done! Whether she leaves graciously (doubt it) or takes the party down (likely) is her choice; but know she will not be President of the United States. When you come to that realization, you can grieve and move on instead of remaining in the states of denial, delusion and confusion.

Posted by: meldupree | March 17, 2008 10:36 PM | Report abuse

WHAT THIS TALK MEANS THAT THE "JANUARY" DELEGATES OF MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA WILL "PRESENT" THEIR CREDENTATIAL TO THE "CREDENTIAL COMMITTEE OF THE DNC" ??
Is this a joke ?? The DNC has already rsolved in advance that these credentials are void !!
And as there no way that the convention can seat these flawed delegates without the
approval of OBAMA, neither he or Hillary will have the needed pledged majority ! the only way this could happen if the Superdelegates vote with HILLARY. But if they do so, which would mean that they are siding with her, they would not need the so seated delegates votes to award the nomination to HILLARY directly (Hillary can practically not achieve the pledges delegates majority even with MI and FLA)

This is BECOMING RIDICULOUS AND SELFDEFEATING. ALREADY LAWYERS, MISREPRESENTING THEY ARE DOING IT FOR INDIVIDUAL, ARE SUING THE DNC ALLEGING THAT
THE PRIMARIY RULES AS "INCONSTITUTIONAL"
(AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE CONSTITUTION DO NOT EVEN ENFORCE NOMINATION BY PRIMARY DELEGATES, eLECTORS CAN BE NOMINATED BY THE LEGISLATURE DIRECTLY!)
EVEN IF SUCCESFUL, OTHER WILL COUNTERSUE, COULD BE THIS WOULD HURT McCAIN IN 2012 ?? !!!!!

CAMINITO

Posted by: caminito | March 17, 2008 10:36 PM | Report abuse

svreader, somehow you expediently forget to mention the rules were made in large part by Hillary's DNC chair and he signed off on the rules to penalize both MI and FL (back in the day when Hillary was perceived to be Ms. "Inevitable" and when it appeared to be to Clinton's benefit). Now you Clintonistas want to change the rules (that y'all all made up) in mid-course since the first set of rules failed to benefit Queen Hillary. No, this is a republic where the rule of law prevails, not an oligarchy where rules are fashioned on a whim. So quit bellyaching and "man-up" to the fact that Hillary is falling farther behind and is trying to lead from the rear -- again!

Posted by: meldupree | March 17, 2008 10:34 PM | Report abuse

meld --

This isn't a game.

Obama is Toast.

The only question is whether he'll take the party down with him.

Posted by: svreader | March 17, 2008 10:32 PM | Report abuse

svreader, someone you expediently forget to mention the rules were made in large part by Hillary's DNC chair and he signed off on the rules to penalize both MI and FL (back in the day when Hillary was perceived to be Ms. "Inevitable"). Now you Clintonistas want to change the rules (that y'all all made up) in mid-course since the first set of rules failed to benefit Queen Hillary. No, this is a republic where the rule of law prevails, not an oligarchy where rules are fashioned on a whim. So quit bellyaching and "man-up" to the fact that Hillary is falling farther behind and is trying to lead from the rear -- again!

Posted by: meldupree | March 17, 2008 10:31 PM | Report abuse

we said that michigan and florida's delegates would not be seated. Would it be so totally insane of us to stick to our word? No delegates should be seated from these states. Period- end of story.

Posted by: caitlinthrasher | March 17, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

I would like an apology from Dr. Dean for his overbearing dictatorial "My-way-or-the-highway" rule over the DNC. And I would like an apology from the state parties for rolling the dice with millions of votes & assumuing Dean wasn't crazy enuf to call their bluff. And I would like an apology from Her Highness for thinking we're too dumb to see the forest for the trees.

But in the end,it was the state parties that refused to see the potential for this castrophe. They are the true buffoons in this comedy of errors.

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

"...Nope. You're wrong there. In every election, a certain percentage of votes are deemed INVALID because they don't follow the rules. The Democratic process is a process and not whim BECAUSE it is based on laws and rules, for example eligibility rules that take into consideration place of birth and residence, age, etc. If you break the rules, your vote is INVALID.

A million people breaking a rule doesn't make them right. They're still WRONG..."

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 10:18 PM
--
Even though I can agree that the rules were broken when the date was changed, you insult every single INDIVIDUAL voter in this state when you claim that we individually somehow violated the rule by showing up on the day that the ballot was provided. I would have shown up on March 11th, but they would have told me to get lost. What did you expect people who live here to do?

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

svreader wrote, "If the Obama-nuts are counting on "party loyalty" they're in for a rude surprise."

Hillary supporters need to understand that it cuts both ways. Properly held do-overs in MI and FL would be ok but if Hillary still lags behind in pledged delegates and does any behind closed doors business to get herself nominated, you can expect millions of young people and others to sit out the general election.

I think McCain has already won. We Democrats have proven ourselves excellent at forming circular firing squads.

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 10:24 PM | Report abuse

The entire Democratic process is to allow and enable ALL people to cast a vote for their candidate. You can talk about rules, people that should have known, etc., etc. But, the fact remains that 2.5 Million people went to the polls in Michigan and Florida in good faith to cast their votes. And, their votes should be counted! The Obama supporters (and they're the only ones disputing the outcomes) who say that Florida and Michigan voters aren't worthy of having their votes counted are doing so strictly for self-serving political purposes and in complete contradiction to the supposedly "new politics" being preached by Obama. Again, the Obama folks continue to demonstrate that they are hypocritical politicians trying to get elected by any means possible, even if it means disenfranchising millions of legitimate voters in Michigan and Florida.

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

svreader

You are going to hold Obama accountable for a decision made by Dean BEEFORE the Jan 29 primary?

"Barry Obama is no better than George Bush."

Really? From where I sit, it's the Hillary! supporters who want to change the rules in the middle of the game. And would I vote for a cheater? Nah...what's the point of that?

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse

Mo897 wrote, "The entire Democratic process is to allow and enable ALL people to cast a vote for their candidate."

Nope. You're wrong there. In every election, a certain percentage of votes are deemed INVALID because they don't follow the rules. The Democratic process is a process and not whim BECAUSE it is based on laws and rules, for example eligibility rules that take into consideration place of birth and residence, age, etc. If you break the rules, your vote is INVALID.

A million people breaking a rule doesn't make them right. They're still WRONG.

I'd agree to a do-over but it would be fair to the rest of the states to expect an apology from MI and FL governors and legislators for the mess they've caused.

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 10:18 PM | Report abuse

Svreader - "The saddest thing for me is all the hours I've wasted on these boards, trying to get people to do their homework, like I did, and find out about the real Barry Obama."

You sought and found an extreme position. Relatively few Democrats join you in this. Perhaps this sould tell you something.

Rat - Nice choice of nickname. Perhaps you could work pennies into the Republican name, because that's all we'll have left in our pockets once Bush and company are done.

BB

Posted by: FairlingtonBlade | March 17, 2008 10:18 PM | Report abuse

Forcing other candidates off the ballot is standard proceedure for Barry Obama.

This time, its going to be a fatal one.

If he gets the nomination because the votes of Florida and Michigan Democrats were never counted, mainstream democrats will bolt the party en-mass to centerist McCain, and the Republican Party will welcome them with open arms.

I always expected they'd either count the votes of have a re-vote.

This is dirty politics at its worst.

Barry Obama is no better than George Bush.

I wouldn't vote for him for dog-catcher.

If the Obama-nuts are counting on "party loyalty" they're in for a rude surprise.

This is America. Not Soviet Russia.

We're "Americans" Not "Party Members"


Posted by: svreader | March 17, 2008 10:15 PM | Report abuse

Actually the original bill (HB537) sponsored by a Democrat DID NOT CONTAIN THE NEW PRIMARY DATE.

But Senate Bill 1010 by Sen. Ring (D) did contain the new primary date. This senate bill was eventually folded into HB 537. And NOT A SINGLE Democratic senator or representative voted against it.

Posted by: anonthistime | March 17, 2008 10:05 PM
--
The majority of Dems, Sen. Ring notwithstanding, would have been just fine with Feb 5th. The Republicans were dead set on being the FIRST primary in the South and ahead of the Republicans in SC. The total, consolidated bill as passed was a tradeoff between Jan 29th and a paper trail. Attempts to amend it after the DNC's violation of its own rules (changing from 50 to 100%), were shot down overwhelmingly in the face of a guaranteed veto.

No one is denying that Democrats wanted an earlier primary than March 11th, but the DNC never stopped to consider the whole story OR the long-term consequences. Obviously, paper ballots weren't important to them after all and they lied, lied, lied when they said their goal was to make sure every vote counted - and I mean general election votes, not primary votes. The ones that the paper ballots would protect.

You're welcome, DNC.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 10:13 PM | Report abuse

dl,
wow what a great post

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 10:10 PM | Report abuse

stonhinged

Your name is good but Neantherdal would be better.

Posted by: dl569 | March 17, 2008 10:07 PM | Report abuse

I misspoke -- I did actually vote, I just didn't vote in the primary. p.s. I voted against Amendment 1 and against Charlie Crist -- a lot of good that did me.

Posted by: klhood11 | March 17, 2008 09:56 PM
--

At least we were on the same page there. I still contend that this whole mess - no matter who is the most responsible - will cost us in November.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 10:06 PM | Report abuse

Actually the original bill (HB537) sponsored by a Democrat DID NOT CONTAIN THE NEW PRIMARY DATE.

But Senate Bill 1010 by Sen. Ring (D) did contain the new primary date. This senate bill was eventually folded into HB 537. And NOT A SINGLE Democratic senator or representative voted against it.

Posted by: anonthistime | March 17, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

Note to DEAN, PELOSI, GORE and other DNC followers (definitely not leading at the moment):


How can a party mute the voices that represent the will of millions?

We are the heart and soul of your constituency. This is an American issue regardless of the nominee you support. It is simply Un-American/ Non-Democratic to disfranchise millions of American citizens. I feel the democratic leadership in Washington is completely out of touch with the profound negative impact this is causing many Floridians. For those of you that care, many of us will be sending a clear message to the DNC if they insist in "staying the course" toward such an unconstitutional act: Simply stated, we will leave the party prior to the formal selection of your nominee ( be sure to check out the data that will reflect this change of party affiliation to: no party affiliation).
This should not be construed as hot rhetoric, we are simply going to take a stand. The same message that we "hoped" you would take notice of when millions manifested their constitutional right despite being told otherwise.


Posted by: jwsAmerica08 | March 17, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

The best hope for the Democratic Party is for Obama to drop out of the race, now.

The second best hope is for him to be defeated by a landslide in Penn.

I'm confident that if Obama makes the mistake of remaining in the race he will completely destroy whatever is left of his career.

Posted by: svreader | March 17, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

dl569,

"They all ended up voting for the bill only because they could not stop it from passing AND because it did contain a good law that forced a paper trail for touch screen voting."

Since they could not stop it from passing, the "paper trail" would have become law in any case. So Dems DID NOT have to vote yes, did they? IT WOULD HAVE BECOME LAW EVEN IF THEY VOTED NO.

Stop trying to excuse the inexcusable. Dems voted Yes for the very same reasons GOPer voted yes. They were tired of being nothing more than a Bank in the Box for presidential candidates.

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

It would be helpful if, and I do say if, some of you people did your homework and learned a bit of the history of this debacle in Florida before running your mouths (keyboards). I know that is a lot to ask. Until you do, shut up!

Posted by: michael4 | March 17, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

Stevenalpert wrote, "the voters of Florida had no hand in deciding to move the date forward. You people seem satisfied to punish all of Florida's people for the decisions made by others."

I had no hand in getting our current President elected twice. Yet I face the consequences of what we collectively wrought for this nation that we love: a long blood-spilling, expensive war, an economy going down the drain and an environment heading for a train-wreck.

The voters of FL and MI elected their leaders and have to face the consequences of their choice of leadership. Or they need to impeach their legislators instead of making those of us who did follow the rules seem like we're fools. I'm an Ohioan, btw, and I'm proud my state followed the rules.

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

This is for DrSubtle (obviously one of Obama's High Schoolers) ... sometimes it has to be repeated many times before kids and ignorant people finally get it!!

The entire Democratic process is to allow and enable ALL people to cast a vote for their candidate. You can talk about rules, people that should have known, etc., etc. But, the fact remains that 2.5 Million people went to the polls in Michigan and Florida in good faith to cast their votes. And, their votes should be counted! The Obama supporters (and they're the only ones disputing the outcomes) who say that Florida and Michigan voters aren't worthy of having their votes counted are doing so strictly for self-serving political purposes and in complete contradiction to the supposedly "new politics" being preached by Obama. Again, the Obama folks continue to demonstrate that they are hypocritical politicians trying to get elected by any means possible, even if it means disenfranchising millions of legitimate voters in Michigan and Florida.

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 10:00 PM | Report abuse

Be a uniter Obama, be a healer, count every vote in Michigan. Stop dragging your feet and step up and be a leader. What are you afraid of?

Posted by: deminFLA | March 17, 2008 9:57 PM | Report abuse

Dan,

I doubt you read the comments on these blogs, but if you do, please, PLEASE, do your "due dilligence" on Barry Obama.

He's as different from his public image as day and night.

Look into what happened in "Obama's Slums"

As a CEO, a lot of what I have to do is to figure out what people aren't telling me.

You do it by looking for what's missing in a pattern.

As yourself one simple question.

What would Ed Murrow do?

If you answer that question honestly, you won't sleep until you've found out what kind of guy the real Barry Obama is.

It only took me a small number of emails and phone calls.

I'm confident your contacts are even better than mine.

Posted by: svreader | March 17, 2008 9:57 PM | Report abuse

More than 1.7 million others of us found the will to go out and vote. Not our fault that you didn't.

And, BTW, by not voting, thanks for handing Charlie his Republican-approved Amendment 1 victory.

____________________________________

I misspoke -- I did actually vote, I just didn't vote in the primary. p.s. I voted against Amendment 1 and against Charlie Crist -- a lot of good that did me.

Posted by: klhood11 | March 17, 2008 9:56 PM | Report abuse

Uhhh, klhood11, I don't know how to tell you this, and I think you might not fully grasp it,

But,

I DO believe you are showing ALL the qualifications and Political Savvy Barack Hussein, the DIMOCRAT Contender, is looking for! ;~)

Posted by: rat-the | March 17, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

Actually the original bill (HB537) sponsored by a Democrat DID NOT CONTAIN THE NEW PRIMARY DATE. The bill was intended to force a paper trail for touch screen voting. A Republican pushed through an amendment to push the date up. The Democrats realized they would lose 50% of their delegates but felt it was essential to pass the bill because of the voting machine issues a few years ago. When the DNC changed their rule from 50% to 100% loss, the Democrats attempted to amend the bill twice to an acceptable date but the amendments failed because they were voted down by the Republican majority. The Democrats realized that they could not stop the bill from passing no matter what they did. They all ended up voting for the bill only because they could not stop it from passing AND because it did contain a good law that forced a paper trail for touch screen voting.

Posted by: dl569 | March 17, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

This do-over thing is getting under my skin. We need a do-over, or we need the votes already gathered to count. Splitting the delegates is THE SAME AS NOT COUNTING FLORIDA, so how does that help!?! If the writers of the sanctimonious "You knew the rules" mantra I keep reading here would please get it through their solid skulls that the voters of Florida had no hand in deciding to move the date forward. You people seem satisfied to punish all of Florida's people for the decisions made by others.

Posted by: stevenalpert | March 17, 2008 9:52 PM | Report abuse

mo897 wrote, "The entire Democratic process is to allow and enable ALL people to cast a vote for their candidate."

You're absolutely and categorically WRONG. In every election, a portion of the votes are deemed invalid when they don't follow the rules. The FL and MI elections are no different. The votes are invalid because they didn't follow the rules. If a million people do something wrong, it's still WRONG.

How are you ever going to teach your children to obey the law/rules and to face the consequences of breaking the law if you support a "do-over" of FL and MI illegal elections?

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 9:52 PM | Report abuse

The entire Democratic process is to allow and enable ALL people to cast a vote for their candidate. You can talk about rules, people that should have known, etc., etc. But, the fact remains that 2.5 Million people went to the polls in Michigan and Florida in good faith to cast their votes. And, their votes should be counted! The Obama supporters (and they're the only ones disputing the outcomes) who say that Florida and Michigan voters aren't worthy of having their votes counted are doing so strictly for self-serving political purposes and in complete contradiction to the supposedly "new politics" being preached by Obama. Again, the Obama folks continue to demonstrate that they are hypocritical politicians trying to get elected by any means possible, even if it means disenfranchising millions of legitimate voters in Michigan and Florida.

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

If Obama becomes the candidate after voters in Florida were prevented from having their say, Florida is 100% guaranteed to go to McCain.

Obama's supporters, aided by a breathtakingly biased press are shoving Obama down America's throat like they've making frois gras.

Its backfiring, big time.

If Obama becomes the candidate, he will lose by a landslide, and mainstream Democrats will never forgive the people who push obama like they were giving birth to a whale.

Republicans and the right-wing portion of the press will be hailed as heros as when the publish the truth about Obama, and papers like the Washington Post, once a truly great newspaper, will have a third "black eye" (no that's not a "racist" term) to go with the two they got for all their "rah rah" in the run up to the Iraq war, and for their failure to push for the Impeachment of Bush/Cheney.

The saddest thing for me is all the hours I've wasted on these boards, trying to get people to do their homework, like I did, and find out about the real Barry Obama.

Obama's trick of calling for a "new kind of campaign" will go down in the history of dirty politics and propaganda, because it's really a coded message for not doing "due dilligence" on candidates.

The press fell for it, hook, line, and sinker, just like they fell for the scandals where reporters made up stories out of whole cloth.

Andy Rooney got it right on 60 minutes last night when he talked about the way reporters used to be.

They don't make them that way anymore.

If Obama gets the nomination, Democrats will lose, and the press that failed to do its job will be largely to blame.

God Bless, Good Save, America!!!

Posted by: svreader | March 17, 2008 9:50 PM | Report abuse

as a florida resident, rat, thanks but no thanks. the republican party has nothing that I want; neitehr does the democratic party. after florida has messed with my mind once again, i bailed on the entire party system, switched to "no party affiliation", and i'll wait for my chance to vote for barack obama in november.

Posted by: klhood11 | March 17, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

Obama's speeches! LOL!

He reminds me of James Earl Jones in his role of the Snake Cult Leader in Conan!

Exact same Dramatics! ;~)

Sad part, I bet he could call some of his Worshipers to jump off a cliff!

COME my Lemmings, off this Left Cliff! COME NOW! ;~)

Posted by: rat-the | March 17, 2008 9:47 PM | Report abuse

Obama was interviewed for a Rolling Stone Magazine article that was published over a year ago. In it, it quotes part of Wright's sermon, some of which is highly racist and then even quotes Obama saying he uses Wright as a sounding board. Anyone who has ever worked for a magazine, newspaper, etc. knows that Obama and his camp got to see that article in the form of complimentary issues or tearsheets as it was published and probably gave permission before it ever got published.

Posted by: dl569 | March 17, 2008 9:46 PM | Report abuse

Oh, so it was the Republican governor and legislature that moved the Florida primary up? Hmmm, seems to me it was a Dem who introduced the bill. And, although the majority of the legislature was indeed GOP, not a single Dem voted against the measure. Quit whining. Florida (and Mich.) broke the rules, and now want to change the rules in the middle of the game. Didn't you learn a long time ago that that's not the way the world works?

Posted by: TGSKDS | March 17, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

The entire Democratic process is to allow and enable ALL people to cast a vote for their candidate. You can talk about rules, people that should have known, etc., etc. But, the fact remains that 2.5 Million people went to the polls in Michigan and Florida in good faith to cast their votes. And, their votes should be counted! The Obama supporters (and they're the only ones disputing the outcomes) who say that Florida and Michigan voters aren't worthy of having their votes counted are doing so strictly for self-serving political purposes and in complete contradiction to the supposedly "new politics" being preached by Obama. Again, the Obama folks continue to demonstrate that they are hypocritical politicians trying to get elected by any means possible, even if it means disenfranchising millions of legitimate voters in Michigan and Florida.

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

You got that one right. If you break the rules, your vote is invalid and is just an opinion. Why is something even a grade schooler understands so difficult for Hillary supporters to grasp? You made your bed, you lie in it. Every action has a consequence. You can't "do-over" every stupid thing you've ever done.

Don't just blame your legislators either. No one forced you to go vote in an illegal election. By the way, more people CHOSE not to vote than vote in MI and FL. Good for them. At least they knew which election was real and which was fake.
---

I made no bed. And, speak for your own elections. Mine had a very real state Consitutional Amendment on the ballot. Only a moron would've stayed home because the DNC had its panties in a bunch.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Too bad the clinton campaign has resorted to Racism.

Dont try to deny it, Billarylovers.

Its all on you.

What a legacy!

Posted by: pvogel88 | March 17, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

how many more florida and michigan voters did not even vote because of the assumption it would not count? probably a whole lot more. to say i am embarassed to be from florida is an understatement.

Posted by: klhood11 | March 17, 2008 09:38 PM
---
More than 1.7 million others of us found the will to go out and vote. Not our fault that you didn't.

And, BTW, by not voting, thanks for handing Charlie his Republican-approved Amendment 1 victory.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 9:41 PM | Report abuse

rmiller wrote, "Which is it? Was our primary valid or not? If not, it never happened and Jan 29th was just an opinion poll with a sample size of 1.7 million. "

You got that one right. If you break the rules, your vote is invalid and is just an opinion. Why is something even a grade schooler understands so difficult for Hillary supporters to grasp? You made your bed, you lie in it. Every action has a consequence. You can't "do-over" every stupid thing you've ever done.

Don't just blame your legislators either. No one forced you to go vote in an illegal election. By the way, more people CHOSE not to vote than vote in MI and FL. Good for them. At least they knew which election was real and which was fake.

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

Obama going to give a speech tomorrow about race(Wright) He will sweet talk all the cult that he never hear a word pastor said.Then it will be hope,change,we are the ones we've been waiting for ha ha No mention that Wright was his mentor,spiritual adviser,pastor for 20 years,Audacity of hope came from one of Wrights sermons.

Posted by: roncraw | March 17, 2008 9:38 PM | Report abuse

Florida and Michigan Residents:

The GOP has a VERY Big Tent!

They respect you!

They CARE about you! :-)

Come on in!

After all, We can actually choose a Nominee! ;~)

Posted by: rat-the | March 17, 2008 9:38 PM | Report abuse

how many more florida and michigan voters did not even vote because of the assumption it would not count? probably a whole lot more. to say i am embarassed to be from florida is an understatement.

Posted by: klhood11 | March 17, 2008 9:38 PM | Report abuse

The DNC broke their own rule when they took away all of Florida's and Michigan's delegates. The rule, Rule 20.C.1(a), was established in 2006 and stated that any state that moved up their date without permission from the DNC would be stripped of 50% of their vote. The RNC Chairman even laughed about the situation because the RNC had the same rule but they stood true to it while the DNC did not. In the end, the real losers in all of this are the 1.75 million Democratic voters who went out to vote that day. Those voters made history in two ways - it was the largest Democratic vote ever in the history of Florida AND it was also the largest group of US citizens who were denied the right to have their vote be counted.

Posted by: dl569 | March 17, 2008 9:35 PM | Report abuse

From now on, anyone who breaks any rule should have the opportunity for a do-over. Of course, everyone will get two chances at everything according to the new Crist-Granholm Law (named after the FL and MI governors).

Gee, how do you "redo" a murder?

Posted by: anonthistime | March 17, 2008 9:33 PM | Report abuse

It does not matter.With the Democratic slate of candidates,McCain will win by a huge margin.

Posted by: rmosco | March 17, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

Obama also did Florida fundraisers, which were allowed, and ran national ads which showed in Florida, and cites being in Florida instead of being in church last summer claiming not to have heard one of the controversial sermons from Rev. Wright given that day.

Newsmax is reporting that he attended one of those sermons, and yes, that was Florida he said he went to speak.

Given that he was there as much as Hillary and ran daily ads and she ran none, that all the Dem candidates were on the ballot, and that I'm a Florida voter who wants my vote counted, I say seat the Florida delegates as voted and the supers should follow the state's voters to Hillary for President 2008.

There was also much effort by Obama and Edwards for Michigan voters to vote Undecided, which got 40% of the vote, and Obama would get all those, which are both his and Edwards, more than he would have got for just himself.

Michigan should be seated as voted, and the supers follow the state's voters to Hillary for President 2008!

rd

Posted by: ralphdaugherty | March 17, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

How quaint for Hillary! voters to think they can pretend March 17 is just like Jan.29. As if NOTHING that has happened in the intervening months might change to ballot outcomes in either Michigan or Florida.

The ONLY way to test that premise would be a re-vote...and I can guarantee a new vote held tomorrow would look nothing like the result in January.

Just how stupid do you think we are?

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

My nephew would like that ticket he got for a traffic violation cancelled. He would like a "do-over" as if nothing happened. Why not? If MI and FL get to re-vote after breaking the rules, he shouldn't get penalized either.

From now on, anyone who breaks any rule should have the opportunity for a do-over. Of course, everyone will get two chances at everything according to the new Crist-Granholm Law (named after the FL and MI governors).

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 09:20 PM
--
Since you felt it important enough to post twice...

Which is it? Was our primary valid or not? If not, it never happened and Jan 29th was just an opinion poll with a sample size of 1.7 million. If so, then count it and no need for a do-over.

Personally, I am against one because it was fair - all were on the ballot, NONE campaigned here other than fundraising event which ALL did, and any claims that we weren't familiar with the candidates is just nonsense. We have cable TV, newspapers and the Internet too, you know?

Doesn't matter. I'll re-cast my primary vote in November. It won't be in the nominees's favor (whoever it end up being), but it will count.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 9:30 PM | Report abuse

"The bill moving the primary passed the Florida Legislature with a minimum of no votes because it was a classic example of logrolling.."

In the Senate 37 yeas, 2 nays (both Republicans) and 1 Not voting

House 118 yeas, 0 nays, 1 not voting.

Boy, that is a hell of a logrolling!

And also a veto proof vote!

Posted by: anonthistime | March 17, 2008 9:29 PM | Report abuse

The entire Democratic primary processes and rules were made to favor Senator Clinton's campaign, with much influence from her national chair, Mr. McAuffie. Yet somehow the Clinton campaign, with its principal and her courtier of high-priced advisors, managed to take ineptness and incompetence to a higher level, while simultaneously being outworked, out-organized, out-planned, out-fundraised and out-hustled and outmuscled by a junior senator with grassroots organizational skills and a highly competent set of advisors (for the most part). The Clintons and their various lackeys, stooges, henches, toadies, tokens, etc., tried to throw the kitchen sink, the plumbing and the appliances at Obama, yet to no avail. These things in of themselves are evidence that Hillary Rodham Clinton should not be the Democratic nominee; her sense of entitlement and "It's my turn" has truly brought out the real Hillary Clinton: mercenary, shrill, incompetent, and treacherous to point of willing and able to commit political fratricide.

As for the Florida and Michigan delegates, they should have followed the rules in order to avoid sanctions. They did not and now they are stuck with the consequences. I suspect people like iowatreasures would not make the same case for seating the Florida delegates had Obama won in that state. If it does benefit the Clintons, then it's automatically wrong (like the caucuses are undemocratic, in their minds).

Posted by: meldupree | March 17, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Those dems not from florida, please read and learn: the state of florida knew the consequences of the early vote and did so anyway (all but one democrat voted for it). The DNC stood firm with not counting the delegates; the state of Florida sued -- in federal court -- downtown Tallahassee --- my hometown. here is the outcome from an extremely astute federal district court judge: (St. Pete Times)
Published December 6, 2007



TALLAHASSEE -- Democratic National Committee 2, Florida 0.

Florida Democrats lost another effort on Wednesday to make Florida's Democratic primary more meaningful on Jan. 29.

U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle threw out a lawsuit that aimed to force the national party to seat Florida delegates at the national convention and command presidential candidates to campaign in Florida.

"We're pleased that the court respected the necessity of the Democratic National Committee to enforce its rules about the selection of delegates to the convention and to treat all of the state Democratic parties across the country in a fair and consistent and equitable way," said Joe Sandler, the DNC's attorney.

The lawsuit was filed by Sen. Bill Nelson, Rep. Alcee Hastings and Rep. Corrine Brown, among other Democrats, against the Democratic National Committee and its chairman, Howard Dean.

The goal of the suit was to resolve a dispute between the state and national parties that originated when Florida moved its presidential primary day to Jan. 29, earlier than national party rules permitted. The DNC responded by stripping Florida of its delegates to the national convention, which led the Democratic candidates to boycott campaigning in Florida for the primary. (They still come to Florida to raise money.)

Without delegates at stake, Florida Democrats can vote on Jan. 29 but the results won't count toward determining the party's nominee for president. Nelson's attorney, Kendall Coffey, said he doesn't expect to appeal.

So, no expectation of appeal. as a democrat, i did not vote because as a reasonable person, i believed the issue was closed. none of the candidates campaigned, and it was understood that the candidates were agreeing to the penalty. was I mad? yes. i was mad at the state of florida for being so arrogant to think they could do this with no consequences. i actually thought they would move the date to february 5th -- being a super tuesday state couldn't be bad. but no. steamroll forward with the silly notion that somehow, it mattered. it's too late to fix it. the state of florida certainly has no money to redo the election; we're cutting the education budget hugely. sorry, florida. we screwed up again. let's just suck it up and hope that one day, we can get it right

Posted by: klhood11 | March 17, 2008 9:27 PM | Report abuse

@stonehinged,

Was the police officer who gave my nephew his traffic ticket REQUIRED to give him a ticket? Answer:NO (my nephew could have had his wrist slapped. But he would have done it again. Besides, it's not fair to those drivers who do follow the rules).

Could that police officer found other means of "punishing" my nephew?
Answer:YES (but my nephew could also have found other means of not breaking the rule in the first place!!!)

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse


There was much effort by Obama and Edwards to vote Undecided, which got 40% of the vote,a nd Obama would get all those, which are both his and Edwards, more than he would have got for just him.

Michigan should be seated as is, and the supers follow the state's voters to Hillary for President 2008!

rd

Posted by: ralphdaugherty | March 17, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

Hillary had her big donors thugs threaten the DNC "demanding" their money back.


Obama'a supporters would happily replace the Clinton donor money for the DNC.


One email from Obama could raise the DNC $1,000,000... and another, and another. His donor list would also raise millions for close Congressional elections where the Dems could pick up many new seats.


It's not just electability that compels an immediate Hillary withdrawal, but also major cash for the Democrats coffers.
The Superdelegates and Democratic professionals should understand that Obama's coattails includes major cash for their elections.


It is well past time to move beyond the Clinton/Bush legacy. It is time for the party leaders to insist that Hillary end her failed endeavor.

Posted by: ben2 | March 17, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

Standing by for disabuse...

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 9:25 PM | Report abuse

Well, Ickes, the voters have not spoken since there was only one name on the ballot. While that is the ultimate in left wing socialist wet dreams - this is America and we have at least a two party system.

While I wouldn't trade a wet rat turd for a sack full of obamas and clintons, the race should still be decided fairly.

The dnc is really stepping in it on this one. It will be almost impossible for rational people to take their arguments seriously when the lose in November after having pulled stunts like this to their own voters.

I can hear the frantic voter registration drives now - remember the Monte Python skit?

Bring out yer dead! Bring out yer dead!

Vote early and vote often. Anything goes.

Posted by: VirginiaConservative | March 17, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

"Senator Hillary Clinton Must Concede Defeat and Support the Democratic Presidential Ticket," says this petition.

http://www.petitiononline.com/ACUDP2/petition-sign.html

"The signatories to this statement urge that Senator Hillary Clinton must concede defeat in her quest for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination and must support the Democratic ticket . . . "

http://www.petitiononline.com/ACUDP2/petition-sign.html

Posted by: francislholland | March 17, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

My nephew would like that ticket he got for a traffic violation cancelled. He would like a "do-over" as if nothing happened. Why not? If MI and FL get to re-vote after breaking the rules, he shouldn't get penalized either.

From now on, anyone who breaks any rule should have the opportunity for a do-over. Of course, everyone will get two chances at everything according to the new Crist-Granholm Law (named after the FL and MI governors).

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 9:20 PM | Report abuse

Hey Flarrfan,

Here's the issue: Did Dean/DNC inform the Fla Dems of the consequences of voting YES on House Bill 537? Answer: YES

Was Dean/DNC REQUIRED to disallow seating of the Fla/Mich delegation? Answer:NO

Could Dean/DNC have found other means of "punishing" states that ignored scheduling rules set by the national party?
Answer:YES

Did Dean/DNC ask Republican legislature what the proper punishment should be for his wayward state parties? Answer:According to your post, likely so.

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

pdxgeek wrote: "3. All the candidates agreed not to campaign in Florida, yet Hillary had the built in advantage of name recognition AND she held 'fundraisers' there which is basically campaigning ... again breaking her word."

Obama also did fundraisers, which were allowed, and ran national ads which showed in Florida, and cites being in Florida instead of being in church last summer claiming not to have heard one of the controversial sermons from Rev. Wright given that day.

Newsmax is reporting that he attended one of those sermons, and yes, that was Florida he said he went to speak.

Given that he was there as much as Hillary and ran daily ads and she ran none, that all the Dem candidates were on the ballot, and that I'm a Florida voter who wants my vote counted, I say seat the Florida delegates as voted and the supers should follow the state's voters to Hillary for President 2008.

Then we have Pennsylvania coming up, lots of issues for voters to draw contrast between Hillary and Obama coming up. And Michigan should be allowed to revote as the DNC said they could. Not much to look at. Just say yes they can.

rd

Posted by: ralphdaugherty | March 17, 2008 9:16 PM | Report abuse

Standing by to disabuse the sheeple of any more Florida disinformation.

Posted by: flarrfan | March 17, 2008 09:10 PM
---

good luck!

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 9:15 PM | Report abuse

My nephew would like that ticket he got for a traffic violation cancelled. He would like a "do-over" as if nothing happened. Why not? If MI and FL get to re-vote after breaking the rules, he shouldn't get penalized either.

From now on, anyone who breaks any rule should have the opportunity for a do-over. Of course, everyone will get two chances at everything according to the new Crist-Granholm Law (named after the FL and MI governors).

Posted by: DrSubtle | March 17, 2008 9:14 PM | Report abuse

I notice not one of you can or will address the DNC violating the rules in order to enforce the rules. When Howard Dean speaks of "rules agreed to by all", he means the 50% loss, yet he won't admit that when he calls for the not agreed upon by all 100% "rules" to be enforced.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 9:11 PM | Report abuse

One more bit of disinformation to point out:

4. Obama left his name on the Florida ballot, instead of taking it off like in Michigan. Of course he did, because Florida election law (possibly unconstitutionally, but who would take that chance) says if your name is not on the primary ballot, you can't get on the general election ballot as that party's candidate.

Standing by to disabuse the sheeple of any more Florida disinformation.

Posted by: flarrfan | March 17, 2008 9:10 PM | Report abuse

I am posting the following in hopes of clarifying a lot of disinformation about Florida and primary voting.

1. The bill moving the primary passed the Florida Legislature with a minimum of no votes because it was a classic example of logrolling . . .vote FOR the bill and get new voting machines, or vote AGAINST it and deal with touch screens, which no one wanted, for another year. The primary move was a tacked-on amendment to the voting machine bill that the Democrats tried and failed to stop.

2. There is NO constitutional right to vote in a party primary. Unless the 11th Circuit appeals court in Atlanta, which heard argument today on a Florida case challenging the Democrats, reverses all prior precedent, there will be no judicial intervention here. Political parties are not in the Constitution, and there are numerous court decisions that say the government has no legal role in prescribing methods used by parties to select nominees.

3. Obama ran no ads in Florida. National ads that aired on the cable news networks were seen by Florida viewers, but the networks can't beam one satellite signal for Florida or Michigan and another for the rest of the country. With ten days to go to Super Tuesday and significant name recognition issues, you're telling me Obama can't advertise to the other 48 states just because people in Florida or Michigan might see it?

Although I would hope not to see the disinformation on these matters again, I'm sure that's not likely. After all political campaigns and candidates thrive on disinformation. And you sheeple just eat it up.

Posted by: flarrfan | March 17, 2008 9:06 PM | Report abuse

It is confirmed - NYT and CNN are biased.

I post the facts and statistics which are PRO Clinton and moderator won'r publish.

Shame on NYT and CNN

Posted by: lotus_med | March 17, 2008 9:05 PM | Report abuse

jtt: It is an embarrassment; but I think you could say that the state legislature blew your money. The legislators understood the risks. They went into this with their eyes open, figuring that they had nothing to lose, since any primary scheduled for later in the process was thought to be meaningless. But they lost their bet. Like a lot of gamblers who lose everything, they'd really like some mercy from the house. They're lucky they weren't playing in Vegas, because the DNC is still likely to work out some sort of deal to seat delegates. The result may just be artificial and somewhat unsatisfying. A compromise of some sort.

Posted by: jchaney | March 17, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

"The Florida state REPUBLICAN Legislature moved the primary up -- NOT the Florida Democrats or Democratic voters!!"

Yup! just like the Republicans forced "The Luv Guv" to withdrawn money from his various accounts in a suspicious manner and contact the Emperors' Club and arrange for a tryst!

Damn, those Repubs sure have lots of power over the poor, weak, helpless Demos!

Posted by: anonthistime | March 17, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

They are going to find a way to take Obama's victory away. Just watch.

Posted by: rahaha | March 17, 2008 9:03 PM | Report abuse

TO HILLARY SUPPORTERS!
Looks like Hillary can't win the nomination. But you can still beat Obama by voting for McCain. WE WILL SUCCEED IN IRAQ, MORE TAX CUT, LESS GOVERNMENT. Support McCain by donating today @ www.johnmccain.com.

Posted by: texdon21 | March 17, 2008 9:02 PM | Report abuse

Speak about audacity: Hillary believes the Michigan delegates should be seated as a fair representation of Michigan voters even though Obama, faithful to the rules, removed his name from the ballot. This slash and burn policy is sure not what this country needs. The woman appears to know no limits to which she won't go to gain power.

IF she somehow wins, she leaves a majority of black voters sitting on their hands in November.

How can we possibly solve the enormous problems facing this country with a return to the Clinton wars of the '90s?

Posted by: ksomerville | March 17, 2008 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Speak about audacity: Hillary believes the Michigan delegates should be seated as a fair representation of Michigan voters even though Obama, faithful to the rules, removed his name from the ballot. This slash and burn policy is sure not what this country needs. The woman appears to know no limits to which she won't go to gain power.

IF she somehow wins, she leaves a majority of black voters sitting on their hands in November.

How can we possibly solve the enormous problems facing this country with a return to the Clinton wars of the '90s?

Posted by: ksomerville | March 17, 2008 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Why do the taxpayers who funded this mess have no voice? They paid for the first primary and should decide the rules. Or the parties should fund the primaries and call all the shots. We should not allow the parties to blow our money in such an embarrassing way.

Posted by: jtt | March 17, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Zactly gandalf

"And they say they are willing to call the bluffs of the national parties, which have threatened to take away delegates the state parties send to the nominating conventions."

I'm wondering why all these passionate folks aren't, as we speak, organizing a recall election of every single Dem who voted to throw away their vote on a dare.

Guess it's just less effort to blame Obama, the GOP, stealth voters, etc.

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 8:57 PM | Report abuse

Florida and Michigan disenfranchised their own voters.

Posted by: wideblacksky | March 17, 2008 8:56 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, gandalf. And what an irony! Florida would have mattered more than almost any other state had the FL legislature stuck with the original primary date. That's called hubris, folks.

Posted by: jchaney | March 17, 2008 8:56 PM | Report abuse

In November 2000, only 8 years ago, the Democrats lost the Presidency, the majority in the House, and the majority in the Senate -- all thanks to the Clintons. It is incredible that there are Democrats who want to to this all over again. But people who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Posted by: dunnhaupt | March 17, 2008 8:55 PM | Report abuse

If the FL Dems had fought the change in primary date tooth-and-nail as it made its way through the legislature, I would have some sympathy for them. But they didn't...they welcomed it with open arms. They should face the consequences now and not have their delegations seated.

Posted by: flux | March 17, 2008 08:15 PM
----

That sounds good until you realize that most of you who blame FL Dems for not protesting the date change enough would be the first to blame them if there had been another recount without an indisputable, verifiable paper trail.

Oh, and the little fact that at the time they played "let's make a deal" with the Republicans, paper trial for a Jan 29th primary, the DNC penalty was only a 50% delegate loss.

I might have had a little more sympathy for Howard Dean and the DNC if THEY hadn't changed the rules after the deed was done and then staked their position on needing to "follow the rules."

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 8:55 PM | Report abuse

The Florida Democrats DID VOTE to move up the Primary - knowing full well that they were likely to be sanctioned.

To wit:

Wednesday, March 21, 2007
Story last updated at 6:00 p.m. on Wednesday, March 21, 2007

Florida House votes for earlier presidential primary


By STEPHEN MAJORS
Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Florida voters would choose their presidential nominees as early as January under a plan the state House of Representatives resoundingly passed Wednesday.
..............
"Merely the discussion of moving Florida's presidential primary earlier in the process has already paid dividends for the state of Florida," said state Rep. David Rivera, referring to the heavy traffic of presidential hopefuls in the state so far, including Arizona Sen. John McCain who stopped in Miami on Wednesday.

House Republicans and Democrats passed the earlier primary bill (HB 537) by a 115-1 vote - a challenge to the national parties that are wielding threats in an attempt to prevent a nationwide race for earlier and earlier primaries.
.................
Florida lawmakers believe the state's demographic and political diversity merit a greater say in the selection of nominees. They're tired of candidates treating the fourth-largest state as a fundraising ATM, only to take the money to campaign in small states like Iowa and New Hampshire. And they say they are willing to call the bluffs of the national parties, which have threatened to take away delegates the state parties send to the nominating conventions.

National Democratic Party rules could even punish candidates who campaign in states that move their primaries earlier than Feb. 5 by essentially not recognizing the state's delegates.

"The state can move its primary date but there are automatic sanctions," said Luis Miranda, a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee. "The rules have been adopted and we will enforce the rules."

*********
Only one Democrat in the Florida Legislature voted Against moving the date up....."state Rep. Jack Seiler, a Wilton Manors Democrat who was the only House member to vote against the bill."

Posted by: gandalfthegrey | March 17, 2008 8:51 PM | Report abuse

Many of the comments here are foolishly partisan. But that is symptomatic of what is happening to the democrats nationally.

One can see it now, the HRC vs BHO supporters squaring off, over, of all states Florida.

BHO block Follow the Rules!
HRC block Count every vote!


All we need is for them to go to court against each other, and we'll have Florida 2000 all over again, except this time democrats against democrats, displaying for all to see just who was making the difficulty back in 2000.

A party which can't even organize a primary season is not ready to lead a country during a long war.

Posted by: mike.maller | March 17, 2008 8:48 PM | Report abuse

mo897: I might feel somewhat as you do if my candidate were trailing. But the contest is always going to be measured in terms of delegates. Delegates are the whole story. And in those terms, Obama has a huge lead at this stage. For a moment, you should consider what it would be like if the lead were reversed and Clinton were up by 170 pledged delegates. You would have to argue that she was the likely nominee and that it was in the best interests of the Party to clarify the outcome and bring the race to a conclusion.

If by some chance Clinton works a miracle and passes Obama in the delegate count, then she will be in a better position to insist that the Florida and Michigan votes be retroactively legitimized. But when you're in second place, your position is weaker.

I haven't heard a good argument yet for seating the Florida and Michigan delegations based on the invalidated primaries. If the point is to make sure that the two states are included, then a 50/50 split of delegates accomplishes that. If the point is to reflect the will of the people, then you need a legitimate primary or caucus. Clinton would still do well in Florida, I think. But the fear in her camp must be that Obama would defeat her in Michigan.

Posted by: jchaney | March 17, 2008 8:46 PM | Report abuse

Here'a rule for the DNC to chew on since they have the legal right to implement them against any state, for any reason, at any time, so said the Federal courts...

As a show of goodwill to your DEMOCRATIC MEMBERS and VOTERS in FL and MI, immediately outlaw open primaries in which Republicans and independents were allowed to vote. You don't want to be seen as favoring outsiders over bona fide Democrats, do you? We're a private organization and we don't have to let them vote even if that's the law in those states. Don't say the rules can't be changed once a state makes its primary open. They've been rewritten after dates were changed.

It's far more offensive to me that non-Democrats have a say in OUR nominating process than the fact that some real Democrats went early.

Posted by: rmiller19 | March 17, 2008 8:46 PM | Report abuse

There are over 600 delegates in the remaining primaries. Let them weigh in regarding how they feel about an anti-American racist Obama candidacy before assuming any kind of outcome. The only reason that Obama and his supporters don't want to count the previous Michigan and Florida primaries or to allow them a revote is because they know that both Michigan and Florida will vote overwhelmingly for Clinton. And, if Obama's campaign can prevent 2.5 Million Democratic votes from being counted, then Obama might have a chance at actually securing the nomination ... and then of course, McCain will win the Presidency because a whole lot of Democrats (including those in Michigan and Florida) will say enough with the Democratic party.

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Florida became a battle of wills: State Dems vrs. National Dems. Well, Florida got their early primary, but Dean got his revenge.
Now it seems Florida has tossed the bomb back into the DNC headquarters.
Michigan will follow.
Things are about to go boom for Screeching Howard and his Band of Merry Men.

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 8:37 PM | Report abuse

Sen. Tracy Potter of ND writes: "The Democratic National Committee must instruct the rules and credentials committees ...."

Unfortunately, any sentence that opens with the word "must" is doomed to fail.

I do agree with the Sen however, that stomping SD or any small state is not nice.

Byt then again, I'm from VT.

Posted by: SteveFinner | March 17, 2008 8:34 PM | Report abuse

It may still turn out to be a moot point. Obama now leads by about 170 in pledged delegates. One plan would be for the DNC to wait and let the contest advance. Obama would continue to rack up delegates into June. Then the DNC could point out that the delegate gap is too large for Florida and Michigan to make a difference in the outcome. They could begin to refer to Obama as the presumptive nominee. Probably they'd go with the 50/50 split idea; but even if they sat delegates based on the void elections, an Obama victory would be assured.

Posted by: jchaney | March 17, 2008 8:34 PM | Report abuse

What a bunch of Obama hypocrits -- it's OK to either ignore the Florida voters or to "split" the votes 50/50 so that Clinton's victory is meaningless. But, you want to try to convince everyone that Obama stands for positive change to dirty Washington politics. Obama and his supporters posting here are fakes!!

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 8:34 PM | Report abuse

HRC True/False:
1) The record shows that when announced by the DNC, Hillary agreed to abide by the DNC's decision to withhold seating delegates from Florida and Michigan (True).

2) Despite her current public opposition to the "disenfranchisement" of Michigan and Florida's delegates, HRC voiced no such objection until behind in the delegate count (True)

3) In describing two alternative solutions to the Florida delegate problem, HRC recently suggested that either a re-vote or "Honoring" the illegitimate Florida primary results would be acceptable to her. in this context, the word "honor" means exactly the opposite (True).

4) HRC would both endorse and advocate seating the Florida delegates if Obama had won the non-primary (False).

5) If Obama had won Florida's illegitimate primary, and was now suggesting the votes be counted, HRC and her surrogates would be explicitly denouncing his patent stance reversal and hypocrisy (True).

6) Democratic party leaders should be more embarrassed at their essentially legitimizing HRC's hypocritical double standard than any preoccupation with Florida and Michigan delegate mismanagement. (True)

Posted by: bsports | March 17, 2008 8:33 PM | Report abuse

Karen Thurman says "Florida doesn't want to vote again, so we won't".
I have to tell you, Ms Thurman, that I do indeed want a re-vote! And I'm so tired of moronic non-Florida voters claiming "rules are rules" - EASY for them to say, as they have no stake in this! I NEVER agreed to any rules that said my vote doesn't count; I have had no say in this! No Florida voter had any say in this decision! A lifelong registered Democrat (I'm 52), with this decision I am now a Republican. Goodbye forever to the RIDICULOUS Democratic Party!

Posted by: stevenalpert | March 17, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

Karen Thurman says "Florida doesn't want to vote again, so we won't".
I have to tell you, Ms Thurman, that I do indeed want a re-vote! And I'm so tired of moronic non-Florida voters claiming "rules are rules" - EASY for them to say, as they have no stake in this! I NEVER agreed to any rules that said my vote doesn't count; I have had no say in this! No Florida voter had any say in this decision! A lifelong registered Democrat (I'm 52), with this decision I am now a Republican. Goodbye forever to the RIDICULOUS Democratic Party!

Posted by: stevenalpert | March 17, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

Karen Thurman says "Florida doesn't want to vote again, so we won't".
I have to tell you, Ms Thurman, that I do indeed want a re-vote! And I'm so tired of moronic non-Florida voters claiming "rules are rules" - EASY for them to say, as they have no stake in this! I NEVER agreed to any rules that said my vote doesn't count; I have had no say in this! No Florida voter had any say in this decision! A lifelong registered Democrat (I'm 52), with this decision I am now a Republican. Goodbye forever to the RIDICULOUS Democratic Party!

Posted by: stevenalpert | March 17, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

What a bunch of Obama hypocrits -- it's OK to either ignore the Florida voters or to "split" the votes 50/50 so that Clinton's victory is meaningless. And, you want to try to convince everyone that Obama stands for positive change to dirty Washington politics. Obama and you are fakes!!

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

mo897: Hillary campaigned, too. In person.

Posted by: VoiceofReason5 | March 17, 2008 8:22 PM | Report abuse

If Clinton had lost Florida her lawyers would be fighting tooth and nail to make sure they weren't seated.

Posted by: choskasoft | March 17, 2008 8:21 PM | Report abuse

"The Florida state REPUBLICAN Legislature moved the primary up -- NOT the Florida Democrats or Democratic voters!!"

Oh, give it up. The bill which moved up the primary in Fla passed with overwhelming support of BOTH parties. And it was Howard Dean & the DNC that decided to NOT seat Fla delegates, not the GOP. As a matter of fact, the GOP WILL seat 1/2 the Fla delegation, to my understanding.

I am getting real tired of this childish
sniveling trying to blame others for what Dems have done to Dems. How the hell r we going to learn from these horrible mistakes if we can't even admit we made them?

And as for Hillary! trying her underhanded best to change history...most of us expected nothing less. Now we'll see if the DNC is going to be her willing accomplice.

Posted by: stonhinged | March 17, 2008 8:19 PM | Report abuse

The Florida state REPUBLICAN Legislature moved the primary up -- NOT the Florida Democrats or Democratic voters!!

Then it's time to vote the Florida state REPUBLICANS out of office. They are suppose to represent the interest of the people and it appears they didn't.

Posted by: dlcb | March 17, 2008 8:15 PM | Report abuse

Okay, mo897. I stand corrected. The Republican Legislature moved the date up. Still, Floridians need to lay blame where it belongs: the state government and its Republican governor, who has eyes on the MCCain VP position, and would love Hillary to be the nominee b/c he believes Republicans can beat her.

Both campaigns, Obama and Clinton, oppossed the mail-in vote, btw. Too risky.

Nobody wants to see another suspicious Florida vote with national consequences.

Posted by: VoiceofReason5 | March 17, 2008 8:15 PM | Report abuse

Several comments here have suggested that the Florida Dems should not be punished for the date of their primary because the Republican-controlled legislature "forced" the date upon them. While it's true that Republicans control state gov't here in Florida, it's false to suggest that the FL Democratic leadership opposed the early date when it was opposed. The measure was SPONSORED by several prominent Democrats, for crying out loud. If the FL Dems had fought the change in primary date tooth-and-nail as it made its way through the legislature, I would have some sympathy for them. But they didn't...they welcomed it with open arms. They should face the consequences now and not have their delegations seated.

Posted by: flux | March 17, 2008 8:15 PM | Report abuse

Okay, mo897. I stand corrected. The Republican Legislature moved the date up. Still, Floridians need to lay blame where it belongs: the state government and its Republican governor, who has eyes on the MCCain VP position, and would love Hillary to be the nominee b/c he believes Republicans can beat her.

Both campaigns, Obama and Clinton, oppossed the mail-in vote, btw. Too risky.

Nobody wants to see another suspicious Florida vote with national consequences.

Posted by: VoiceofReason5 | March 17, 2008 8:15 PM | Report abuse

The Florida Democratic Party fully supported the move at the time, enough of the nonsense spin coming out of the Hillary (I'll say anything an do anything to win the nomination) camp now. Either split them 50-50, hold a revote, or seat none. The rules were clear, they knew it and they broke it. Without a contested race the results were meaningless, Hillary even acknowleged as much after Texas and Ohio (when asked why she lost a 25 pt lead, she remarked very clearly that she knew once the race became competitive and the candidates committed resources that the numbers would tighten, and she's said the same about Pennsylvania!).

Posted by: kreuz_missile | March 17, 2008 8:11 PM | Report abuse

If Florida voters are upset, they should blame their state's Democratic Committee and their Republican Governor. They broke the DNC rules, and they know it.

Gov. Crist would like nothing more than to see Hillary as the Dem nominee because he believes Republicans will squash her AND he's apparently on McCain's VP short list.

Obama and Hillary oppossed the mail-in vote because it was too risky.

Sorry for the Florida voters. Still, I doubt they'd want to be seen as responsible for another national voting screw up should the mail in vote been comprimised.

Posted by: VoiceofReason5 | March 17, 2008 8:11 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and by the way, there was one Democratic nominee that DID campaign in Florida with ads -- BARACK OBAMA!! More two-faced and dishonest campaigning from the candidate of "change" and "inspiration" that is now saying that Florida's vote shouldn't be counted because he lost!!

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 8:07 PM | Report abuse

A rule for the Democratic Primary is only as good as it helps accomplish what the Democratic Primary is intended to do: determine which nominee would have the best shot at winning the presidency. A rule for Democratic Primary that ignores the vote of Florida, a crucial swing state, undermines this goal. The argument of enforcing the rule for the sake of enforcing the rule makes no sense given the fact that this is Florida and Michgan we're talking about. I'm sorry, but this "rules" business is an Obama talking point designed to avoid the obvious issue that he lost badly to Clinton in Florida and does not want it to count.

Posted by: rickster186 | March 17, 2008 8:02 PM | Report abuse

There should be a revote. America is supposed to be about votes. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama should have a complete test til the end.

Posted by: WhitmanArtGroup | March 17, 2008 8:01 PM | Report abuse

The Florida state REPUBLICAN Legislature moved the primary up -- NOT the Florida Democrats or Democratic voters!! All of the opportunistic and hypocritical Obama suppolrters will do anything to gain the nomination even if it means disenfranchising 1.7 MILLION Florida Democratic voters who voted in good faith on the primary date that their state legislature established, over the objections of the state's Democratic leadership. To say that these people "broke the rules" and "deserve to pay the price" and "shouldn't be counted" is absolutely the most absurd double standard. But, of course, that is what the Obama campaign is all about!!

Posted by: mo897 | March 17, 2008 8:00 PM | Report abuse

Enough already!

The Fla. Democratic Party knew full well what it was doing when a Democratic senator cosponsored the legislation creating the Jan. 29 primary, and only 1 Democrat ended up voting against it.

The party was wise enough to make sure it did some amendments for show to vainly attempt to move the primary to Feb. 5.

The early primary was designed to help Clinton, and it was certainly no secret.

It is just that the best laid plans of mice and men go awry sometimes...

Let us keep some shred of credibility to the process.

Real elections involve campaigning. The Democrats didn't campaign in Fla.; the Republicans did. Their primary was legitimate; the Democrats' wasn't.

If you won't have a do-over, then simply split the delegation evenly with no impact on the nominee. Period.

Posted by: nicksak | March 17, 2008 7:57 PM | Report abuse

And the best quote :

"State party leaders said that even if none of the state's delegates were seated at next summer's Democratic presidential convention, the earlier primary would still help determine the nominee."

Posted by: dig_duggler | March 17, 2008 7:53 PM | Report abuse

"State party leaders said that even if none of the state's delegates were seated at next summer's Democratic presidential convention, the earlier primary would still help determine the nominee.

The Democratic National Committee voted last month to strip Florida of its delegates unless it decided by Sept. 29 to obey party rules and delay its primary until Feb. 5 or later. Then, under pressure from the four states permitted to hold contests in January, the major Democratic candidates pledged not to campaign in Florida if the primary was moved ahead.

Ever since, state party leaders have agonized over whether to accept the sanctions and stand firm on Jan. 29 or to yield and hold a smaller contest, like a caucus or vote-by-mail primary, later in the year. They decided to stick to January, said Karen Thurman, the party chairwoman"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/us/politics/24florida.html?_r=1&fta=y&oref=slogin

The knew what the were getting into. The GOP didn't force them into anything, many states have split primaries/caucuses.

Posted by: dig_duggler | March 17, 2008 7:51 PM | Report abuse

It's too bad that the Florida and Michigan delegations won't be seated. They should not be. The rules were clearly communicated. Those states broke the rules. They can't say now that they should be seated because it's a close race for the nomination. Honestly, I find the Clinton campaign to be self-serving, trying to get them seated so that they can more easily win. Obama has played by the rules. Now Clinton wants them changed when the game is almost over. THAT's what is unfair.

Posted by: deannaizme | March 17, 2008 7:50 PM | Report abuse

While there appears no likelihood that the Clinton campaign will go quietly into the night, there does not seem to be anyway that she can accumulate either popular votes or sufficient delegates to wrest the Democratic nomination from the clear frontrunner, Obama.

The time for her to take up the cause of disenfranchized Michigan and Florida Democrats should have been BEFORE she slipped into second place in the contest.

To these old independent voters ears, it sounds again like sour grapes and spilled mild - a combination that has become synonomous with a badly mismanaged Clinton campaign.

Hillary has been out-worked, out-managed and out-thought for 6 months by a street-wise community organizer who quietly gets the job done - over and over again.

The latest hue and cry over the hostile words of an angry African-American preacher, and the non-story out of the Rezko trial will be ancient history by the time Puerto Rico holds its primary. Both of these peripherial tales to not change the fact that Hillary cannot out-campaign Obama. She has not since the beginning of this contest.

The selection and her continued management of her campaign staff is woefully inept. The job is obviously too big for her skill set. Instead of proving that she is not inept, she reverts to the "slick willie" approach of manuevering and that is why she now tries to return to Michigan and Florida in her desparate quest to win by any means possible.

Posted by: gandalfthegrey | March 17, 2008 7:48 PM | Report abuse

I feel that the members of the Florida and Michgan parties deserve to go to the convention and be seated, but to do so based on the votes is absurd. Here are the keay points:

1. The people in Florida knew ahead of their vote that the vote did not count, and some people decided to stay home rather than cast a pointless ballot.

2. All the candidates agreed to take their names off the Michigan ballot, Hillary broker her word and left it on.

3. All the candidates agreed not to campaign in Florida, yet Hillary had the built in advantage of name recognition AND she held 'fundraisers' there which is basically campaigning ... again breaking her word.

4. From her own mouth Hillary has said she thinks the delegates from the states should be seated as-is, and will not admit that this is purely a self serving non-sensical stance.

Forget if you are Pro-Hillary or Pro-Obama. Who can honestly say these votes should count and why? Bueller? Bueller?

Posted by: pdxgeek | March 17, 2008 7:47 PM | Report abuse

It is really difficult to see how Sen. Obama can give a successful speech on race tomorrow considering that he has attended a church for the last twenty years where the Rev. Wright has given, to all appearances, racially intolerant and anti-American sermons. Particularly since he calls Wright his "spiritual advisor" and has had him on his campaign for the past year. If Ophra can leave this church within two years because of the nasty rhetoric, why not Obama?
A speech on race? Some folks are going to wonder what's next? Bill Clinton on marital fidelity? George Bush on how to speak in public?

Posted by: BruceMcDougall | March 17, 2008 7:45 PM | Report abuse

I see several comments about how Florida Democratic voters are at fault for moving their primary date forward - against the wishes of the DNC.

That is inaccurate. It was the Florida GOP-controlled legislature that set the date forward against the wishes of the DNC.

The Democratic voters had no choice, so they came out in large numbers for Hillary to show their protest against the GOP-controlled legislature and the mean-spirited, uncompromising DNC. gw.

Posted by: Iowatreasures | March 17, 2008 7:44 PM | Report abuse

As I understand it, MI and FL violated Dem party rules and moved their primaries forward Even though the Dem Nat'l Party told them the consequences for doing so. Every Dem candidate except Hillary removed their names from those primary ballots and pledged not to campaign in those states in honor of the rules. Now, Hillary is lagging and wants those states votes counted because she BROKE THE RULES AND WON - well Duh, because she was the only candidate on the ballot. Am I missing something? What is wrong here? Play foul and sue to win or play fair and lose.

Posted by: sandynh | March 17, 2008 7:42 PM | Report abuse

Both states' delegations will be benevolently be seated if Hillary graciously concedes without taking this to the convention.

Posted by: CrestwoodKat | March 17, 2008 7:41 PM | Report abuse

As usual when HRC was asked before the Florida and Michigan elections, she said she wanted to follow whatever rules the DNC had laid out. But wait, she actually did not mean that. That's why she kept her name on the ballot. Now that her campaign is in a soup she does not want to follow the rules DNC has setup. She really has broken all records of double-talk.

In the TX debate, she made it clear that super delegates have no other role than rubber-stamping the popular vote. Not AUTOMATIC delegates are "there for a reason - to elect her AGAINST THE POPULAR VOTE!"

It is beyond all reason, how HRC supporters keep on this two-faced charade.

Posted by: titindgp | March 17, 2008 7:36 PM | Report abuse

Michigan and Florida chose to ignore the rules agreed to by the Democratic Party. They're whining now because they realize the magnitude of their mistake. They had the option to schedule primaries that would have counted. They chose to go early with beauty contests. The voters of Michigan and Florida should beat up their governors and legislatures, not the DNC. Anyone who says that Michigan's delegation should be seated, when only Hillary Clinton was on the ballot, is not credible. That includes Mrs. Clinton.

Posted by: karlanne1 | March 17, 2008 7:35 PM | Report abuse

If the Democrats, not specific candidates, want to win the general election, then the only fair solution is to seat the pledged delegates based on the Jan. primary results.

Posted by: djstates | March 17, 2008 7:30 PM | Report abuse

The Democratic parties in Florida and Michigan created this political dilemma by moving their primary dates forward in violation of the DNC's mandate that any state violating its schedule would be deprived the seating of their delegates at the national DNC convention.

A simple solution: The DNC splits the delegates in Florida and Michigan between Obama and Hillary 50/50; thus, clearing the seating of the delegates from these two wayward states at the national convention.

This solution is economical and resolves a serious delemma that could blow up our party. Forrest Gerard

Posted by: fgerard | March 17, 2008 7:29 PM | Report abuse

Why is this being debated?

The rules were clear. Michigan and Florida broke the rules.

End of discussion.

Democratic Michiganders and Floridians had an option to stop their party from breaking the rules. They could have held their primaries as usual. Buy no! Break the rules and then squawk when no one lets you play.

We are a Nation of rules, right?....left?....Ugh!

Can I have my country back, please?

Posted by: VoiceofReason | March 17, 2008 7:25 PM | Report abuse

The state democratic organizations in MI and FL should just stand up and acknowledge their own stupidity and brazen hubris. They knew the party rules and set the primary dates in spite of them. It is not the voters' fault, its the state democratic parties. Let them shoulder the blame for screwing up.

BTW that lawsuit about disenfranchising voters? That's not going anywhere. The parties are private organizations and can set their bylaws any way they want. The courts are not going to get involved.

Sorry MI & FL democratic primary voters, your state party leadership tried to throw their weight around and failed.

Posted by: jlaprise | March 17, 2008 7:22 PM | Report abuse

The democratic official of Florida created a mess in 2000 with their chad-based systems and they have created another mess in the current elections by going along the republican plans to move forward their primaries, violating the rules that all parties agreeded on at the national level.

In politics there are procedures and there are rules and the democratic officials of Florida need to learn both.

Posted by: Logan6 | March 17, 2008 7:18 PM | Report abuse

I understand that the Obama campaign wants to SEE the measure before they okay it. Sounds reasonable to me. I am sure the Hillary supporters will object.

"efforts by the Michigan legislature to pass a measure setting up a do-over primary in that state have stalled. Legislators are awaiting advance approval by the two presidential campaigns and Obama officials have not yet said whether they approve or disapprove of the new plan."

Posted by: lynettema | March 17, 2008 7:17 PM | Report abuse

The Democratic National Committee must instruct the rules and credentials committees to seat the Florida delegation based on the vote, but to honor the rules, reject seating the Florida superdelegates. Democracy and the Rules are then both honored. The voters choice (as unfair as that is when campaigning and meaning were stripped from the election) is then confirmed, but it shows there are consequences to violation. This is a fair compromise to both sides and much superior to giving all the delegates half votes, with about the same impact on the race. It is a public relations way out for the party. They should also then refuse to seat the Michigan superdelegates no matter what happens there. Michigan holding its primary on June 3 is another insult to two small states, as moving their primary up was - this time they stomp on South Dakota and Montana.

Sen. Tracy Potter
Bismarck, ND

Posted by: tpotter | March 17, 2008 7:16 PM | Report abuse

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