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Wednesday, Live Online

The following guests will be taking reader questions today in live online chats from the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, Minn.:

D.C. delegation chair Jim Kadtke, Maryland alternate delegate Sam Whyte and Virginia delegate Kate Maxwell will be online at 11:15 a.m. to discuss their experiences here and take your questions. Click here to submit questions or read the discussion.

Washington Post columnist Ruth Marcus will be online at 1 p.m. to discuss Gov. Sarah Palin and her record, Sen. Joseph Lieberman's speech, and her Post Partisan blog entries. Click here to submit questions or read the discussion.

Also, Washington Post Obama campaign reporter Anne E. Kornblut will be online at noon -- not from the convention but from the trail -- to take readers' questions about how the Democrats are moving forward from their convention a week ago. Click here to submit questions or read the discussion.

By Web Politics Editor  |  September 3, 2008; 10:45 AM ET
Categories:  Trail Chat  
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Comments

No big surprise that Ms. Kornbut "declined" to answer any of my questions this morning ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

I wonder if the media will report this.

The women said they want to get between the media and its barrage of attacks on Sarah Palin. That they are offended and will stand in front of her, protecting her.

Carly Fiorina on an interview on FoxNews:

"Congresswoman Marsha Blackburg made a point about sexism"

"Democrats didn't stand up for how Hillary Clinton was treated"

"The Republican party will not stand by and tolerate this sexist treatment [of Palin]"

"For example, she has been described as the "cheerleader from the west" and treated and described in a demeaning and belittling way"

"Our message today was, disagree with her if you do, on the issues. But don't ask her questions that you wouldn't ask a man like how to have children and serve as VP."

I bet the media won't report on this strong protest by these Republican female leaders, or they will report on it in belittling, patronizing ways, if they do report it.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 2:10 PM | Report abuse

Oh man, a bunch of prominent Republican woman are lined up protesting how Palin is treated.

Awesome. Makes the Democratic feminists look like a bunch of impotent, partisan tools beholden to their male masters.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 2:04 PM | Report abuse

AsperGirl:

LOL! Yeah, you shouldn't admit that (at least we proved Ronnn wrong ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 1:54 PM | Report abuse

I think you worry needlessly. McCain has already demonstrated that he can not keep a campaign solvent last summer and did some slight of hand to borrow money using his pledge to accept campaign funds before he did not use them. Obama on the otherhand was stingy in paying his employees and advisors and never ran into cash problems even before the cash came rolling in. He adjusted his advertising according to his budget so he never ran into problems.

He arranged his foreign policy advisors, a group of 300 hundred into smaller groups. reporting upward so that he gets the benefit of the perspective of all 300 each day. Obama is a fastideous organizer and spent all last summer doing the organization that payed off this year. While he was doing that others complained that his campaign was falling apart. He has initiated a phenomenal effort to turn out the vote and has communicated successfully with his supporters.

He reorganized the Democratic party after his nomination and it has functioned in an organized fashion unlike my previous experiences with it. He has gotten MoveOn.org to tone down its rhetoric and has allowed the Clinton's to shine at the convention while delivering an upbeat Obama message.

John McCain is in fact poorly organized but could be brought into line by an effective chief of staff.

The critical issue in this election is not the executive skills in which Obama has excelled over McCain. It is the vision for the country. Are we going to move in the direction of a non-oil based economy and make the investment in that future? Are we going to insure that the growth in our economy is delivered to all Americans or just the investor class? There are many other questions whose answer would help to decide the direction this country will take but I believe that a change in the economy away from fossil fuels is the most important step we must take. I think that Obama has the vision to take us in that direction.

McCain lacks vision but it is not necessary for he does not envision a transformation of the economy. His idea of change is for a more honorable and less corrupt government and back in 2000 that was good enough for me.

I agree that change is coming whether we want it or not and I believe that change should come during the administration of someone who visualizes all strata of society and not someone who relies on one segment of the society to carry the load. Bush did not do a good job and a modified Clinnton approach is in order.

Posted by: Ronnn | September 3, 2008 1:45 PM | Report abuse

>>JakeD wrote: "BTW: I graduated from law school in 1961. How about you?"

Hi, I'm not a lawyer, but I do like to read law. I'm thinking of law school but would probably like patent law, if I did go. I don't think I'd be much of a litigator (although following the political scene this year has taught me a lot).

I like employment law, constitutional law (sovereign immunity issues), and some other topics.

For some odd reason, I like lawyers, too :)

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 1:39 PM | Report abuse

AsperGirl:

Of course no one is asking John McCain, Barack Obama or Joe Biden if they can serve and be a MOTHER at the same time (that question is reserved for women only ; )

BTW: I graduated from law school in 1961. How about you?

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 1:28 PM | Report abuse

SARAH PALIN LISTENS TO HATE SPEECH AND ANTI-SEMITIC RANTS AGAINST JEWS IN CHURCH!!!


Andrew Sullivan at the Atlantic uncovered a shocking detail about Sarah Palin (one of the now many shocking details link :http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/anti-jewish-ter.html), in which she sat in a meeting at the Wasilla Bible Church.

VIDEO HERE of the "Jerusalem Dilemma": http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22David+Brickner%22&hl=en&emb=0#q=%22David%20Brickner%22%20Jerusalem&hl=en&emb=0


The meeting was headed by David Brickner, the executive director of Jews for Jesus, and here's what he said:

Brickner also described terrorist attacks on Israelis as God's "judgment of unbelief" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity.

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can't miss it."

Palin was in church that day, Kroon said, though he cautioned against attributing Brickner’s views to her.

John McCain now has a serious Jewish problem, thanks to Sarah Palin's extremist creationist views, which may cost him Florida, and several other states when these views, supported by Sarah Palin, become very well known.

Sarah Palin is no friend to the Jewish community, and neither is John McCain, in having picked this Dominionist as his Vice-President.

Edit: Here's the audio of the sermon at Wasilla Bible Church. link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-fvg6Q_TyE

Here's some of the transcript from Brickner's speech (Click on that link and save the transcript because it'll be soon gone when they scrub this site):

And the Bible tells us the entire generation of Israelites perished in the wilderness because of unbelief. And that has characterized the ministry of the prophets. They’ve all experienced that rejection.

And so Jesus, now coming in fulfillment of all the hope and all the promise of all the prophets, is not taken off guard by that. He is likely, obviously, to experience...and will soon experience...that same unbelief, full force, in His own body. And I’ve heard people talk about this reality of history, and talk about the ‘stiff-necked Jews’. Have you heard that phrase before? The stiff-necked Jews... Well, God was the one who first used that about Israel, and He can get away with it. But my mother always told me, "Be careful when you point a finger at somebody else, because there’s some pointing back at you." And really, Israel has not cornered the market on unbelief. Israel is an example of what all humanity has been saying to God since the beginning of time, shaking its fists at the heavens and saying, ‘You’ll not rule over us.’

And so all of the controversy that we see swirling in Jerusalem is really a mirror that the world looks in to see the controversy within. The Jerusalem Dilemma is the Wasilla Dilemma; it’s the dilemma of the human heart. And so it’s important for us to notice, then, Jesus’ response to this unbelief, this rejection.


WE MUST FIGHT AGAINST THOSE ANTI-SEMITES. THAT IS DISGUSTING.

Posted by: laplumelefirmament | September 3, 2008 1:25 PM | Report abuse

SARAH PALIN LISTENS TO HATE SPEECH AND ANTI-SEMITIC RANTS AGAINST JEWS IN CHURCH!!!


Andrew Sullivan at the Atlantic uncovered a shocking detail about Sarah Palin (one of the now many shocking details link :http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/anti-jewish-ter.html), in which she sat in a meeting at the Wasilla Bible Church.

VIDEO HERE of the "Jerusalem Dilemma": http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22David+Brickner%22&hl=en&emb=0#q=%22David%20Brickner%22%20Jerusalem&hl=en&emb=0


The meeting was headed by David Brickner, the executive director of Jews for Jesus, and here's what he said:

Brickner also described terrorist attacks on Israelis as God's "judgment of unbelief" of Jews who haven't embraced Christianity.

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can't miss it."

Palin was in church that day, Kroon said, though he cautioned against attributing Brickner’s views to her.

John McCain now has a serious Jewish problem, thanks to Sarah Palin's extremist creationist views, which may cost him Florida, and several other states when these views, supported by Sarah Palin, become very well known.

Sarah Palin is no friend to the Jewish community, and neither is John McCain, in having picked this Dominionist as his Vice-President.

Edit: Here's the audio of the sermon at Wasilla Bible Church. link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-fvg6Q_TyE

Here's some of the transcript from Brickner's speech (Click on that link and save the transcript because it'll be soon gone when they scrub this site):

And the Bible tells us the entire generation of Israelites perished in the wilderness because of unbelief. And that has characterized the ministry of the prophets. They’ve all experienced that rejection.

And so Jesus, now coming in fulfillment of all the hope and all the promise of all the prophets, is not taken off guard by that. He is likely, obviously, to experience...and will soon experience...that same unbelief, full force, in His own body. And I’ve heard people talk about this reality of history, and talk about the ‘stiff-necked Jews’. Have you heard that phrase before? The stiff-necked Jews... Well, God was the one who first used that about Israel, and He can get away with it. But my mother always told me, "Be careful when you point a finger at somebody else, because there’s some pointing back at you." And really, Israel has not cornered the market on unbelief. Israel is an example of what all humanity has been saying to God since the beginning of time, shaking its fists at the heavens and saying, ‘You’ll not rule over us.’

And so all of the controversy that we see swirling in Jerusalem is really a mirror that the world looks in to see the controversy within. The Jerusalem Dilemma is the Wasilla Dilemma; it’s the dilemma of the human heart. And so it’s important for us to notice, then, Jesus’ response to this unbelief, this rejection.


WE MUST FIGHT AGAINST THOSE ANTI-SEMITES. THAT IS DISGUSTING.

Posted by: laplumelefirmament | September 3, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

The Media was biased against Senator Hillary Clinton. Now, the Media is out of control against Governor Palin. Back off!

Posted by: mmarii | September 3, 2008 1:10 PM | Report abuse

The McCain campaign has said that they are sick of the media focus on the Bristol Palin pregnancy and attacking Palin's experience and they call it ... an obsession. They said that they are "shutting it down" -- whatever that means.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Ha! Levi Johnston, Bristol Palin's boyfriend, is there on the tarmac greeting John McCain with the Palin family, holding Bristol's hand.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 1:01 PM | Report abuse

>>Ronnn wrote: "Things sure seem to be moving in the direction of change and McCain and Palin will never be that for all your protestations otherwise."

I agree with you, Ronnn. Only I don't see a politician as an agent of that change. Particularly a politician who promises personal redemption and political "transcendence" -- you can only bring such changes to groups that relate to your rhetoric; no one can effect such personal and transcendent change across subcultures for which one's specialized memes are not meaningful.

I believe that in the next decade, drastic change will be forced on us whether we want it or not, and whether we are ready or not. I can somewhat anticipate the form that some of our coming challenges will take and what kinds of resources we will have to draw on. I really don't think that an on-the-job-learning president can deal with the kind of changes that an executive environment of drastic externally imposed global dislocations that the next president will encounter.

That is my biggest problem with Obama: he doesn't have the background or executive skills that would enable him to do what the next president would have to do for us to do well in the next decade if these challenges do indeed materialize.

Change has been happening already -- and more is to come -- from the climate and other global dislocations that are unfolding. We won't "get change" from the color of some candidate's skin, their gender or other personal attribute of the president.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:57 PM | Report abuse

According to Caroline Shively, Rudy Giuliani is going around the convention floor telling the media to stop asking "Can Sarah Palin serve as VP and be a mother at the same time?" He's telling them no one asked him, John McCain, Barack Obama or Joe Biden that question, so "back off".

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Wish McCain were lactating for that would indicate a treatable brain tumor which after surgery would make him fit for service.

Posted by: Ronnn | September 3, 2008 12:47 PM | Report abuse

AsperGirl; Biden was blue collar when you and JakeD were just out of law school, and Hillary was learning about Arkansas politics. It is a difficult concept for cynics but what you see is what you get. Embellishments yes, but total make overs like Palin's hockey mom, no. Things sure seem to be moving in the direction of change and McCain and Palin will never be that for all your protestations otherwise.

Posted by: Ronnn | September 3, 2008 12:44 PM | Report abuse

McCain has 7 children. Good think he's not lactating. He'd be deemed incompetent and unfit for office.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:41 PM | Report abuse

>>Ronn wrote: "Gov Ridge is totally unqualified to say anything about executive experience, Homeland security was in a shambles during his tenure and PA budget shortfalls were on the rise when he left to go to homeland security."

Ridge was a very popular governor of PA. His color coding system was ridiculed by the press, tho. I think that's what most people would remember about him nationally.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:39 PM | Report abuse

FoxNews seems to be getting the better interview subjects and people today. Unsurprising after how Soledad O'Brian on CNN was behaving so personally hostile and prosecutorial about Sarah Palin. I wonder who will talk to her after that.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:37 PM | Report abuse

Meg Whitman:

"Right now I'm flat out for Senator McCain for President. After that [I might run for a public office]."

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Gov Ridge is totally unqualified to say anything about executive experience, Homeland security was in a shambles during his tenure and PA budget shortfalls were on the rise when he left to go to homeland security.

I will grant that as mayor she worked to weed out librarians who got in the way of her agenda and she was ruthless in trying to get rid of her ex-brother-in-law when he worked for public safety. She will do every bit of the job that VP Cheney did in subverting justice and fowling up our energy policy if given the same opportunity to do disservice to our nation.

Posted by: Ronnn | September 3, 2008 12:35 PM | Report abuse

>>JakeD wrote: ""Falls Church, Va.: Is it too early to start talking about the Eagleton scenario? If Palin starts polling good numbers among independent women, doesn't it become increasingly likely that Joe Biden will develop an unexpected health problem and have to step down, at which point he's replaced by Hillary Clinton?"

I think that it's clear that the Dems in Alaska are going to try to witchhunt Palin. They're setting up an irregular "investigation" of her that is outside the normal channels of a Personnel action review, and refusing to provide any information to her about what they're doing, who they're talking to or what the questions or factual basis for any specific allegations are against her. With no formal rules, they can basically go on a fishing expedition and come up with any kind of indictment they want. If she's unsuccessful at stopping this, she might be forced to either denounce the Alaskan Democratic-led process as a witchhunt and ignore it or step down. Who knows?

What I do think is funny is how everyone thought that Palin is pandering to Hillary supporters, but no one pointed out how Biden was putting on Clinton's lipstick and pretending to be a blue collar working man "born in Scranton, PA". Obama did everything but dress Biden up in a pantsuit, when he was trotted out.

I don't think there will be any poll-driven withdrawals as VP, tho.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:33 PM | Report abuse

Finally a GOOD question (which is why she hasn't thought of it obviously):

"Falls Church, Va.: Is it too early to start talking about the Eagleton scenario? If Palin starts polling good numbers among independent women, doesn't it become increasingly likely that Joe Biden will develop an unexpected health problem and have to step down, at which point he's replaced by Hillary Clinton?

Anne E. Kornblut: THAT is not a scenario I had heard floated. So thank you for doing so. I will ask, but something tells me this is unlikely."

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 12:25 PM | Report abuse

Anne Kornbut is SO in the tank for Obama:

"Anonymous: Hi Anne, loved seeing you during the Democratic National Convention. Am curious as to what the reactions are to the Obama/Biden convention last week. I thought it went well, and the closing on Thursday was awesome. A veritable cross-section of Americans of both genders, all races etc. This 58-year-old hasn't been so up in years and, hint, I used to be a Republican. Thanks, and safe travels!

Anne E. Kornblut: It was quite a convention, wasn't it? I missed most of it because I was on the road with Obama on the way in, but the bit I caught at the end was impressige to watch -- in part because so many attendees were "up," as you put it."

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 12:20 PM | Report abuse

Tom Ridge on Sarah Palin qualification:

"I daresay that Governor Palin made more executive decisions on her first day in office than Senator Obama has made throughout his whole time in public office."

"Let's talk about judgment... she understands the surge made a difference. Senator Obama still refuses to acknowledge whether the surge made a difference."

As a governor, do you really get involved in any foreign policy experience?

Ridge: "Again, it's a matter of being in the national chain of command ... for the women and men who serve in the national guard."

On why she might have been picked for VP: "With energy being such a critical issue in the country in this campaign.... we have a governor from an energy state who understands how to balance environmental and energy concerns."... "He chose Governor Palin on account of her leadership and personal story." "I think he made a bold choice."

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:18 PM | Report abuse

"In the last three presidential elections where the Democrat won, the market sold off after Labor Day, rose going into election day and then sold off again. For those hoping for an Obama victory the market has started out supporting that result. Wishful thinking, maybe but if the response to Ms Palin's selection is an indication, the country is in for change."

Posted by: Consider This | September 3, 2008 12:07 PM

Just found this. A Democratic victory would probably be bad for the market short term but over the next two to four years much better.

Posted by: Ronnn | September 3, 2008 12:15 PM | Report abuse

How convenient ; )

BTW: none of my questions have been answered yet:

Ms. Kornblut:

You were accused of "aggressive reporting" during Hillary Clinton's primary bid -- do you deny that -- if not, will you continue that as to Barack Obama? If not, why not?

Will you be asking Obama if he can be President while parenting two young girls? If either on of them get pregnant down the road, will the press attack them the same as Palin's daughter? Do you think Obama is doing everything possible to stop these personal attacks?

Have you decided who you are voting for President, and is it Obama?

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 12:15 PM | Report abuse

>>JakeD wrote: "Pointedly different viewpoint now that she's "reporting" on her favored candidate, don't you think?"

Yes. Maybe she's also just getting better, too.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Pointedly different viewpoint now that she's "reporting" on her favored candidate, don't you think?

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 12:03 PM | Report abuse

Wow. The media really personally hates Palin. All these articles, you think they're cynical or something.

But when you see the anchors on TV, their faces are ugly and their body language is uptight.

Sarah Palin hasn't even had her formal debut yet and there is so much anger and hatred in the faces of these broadcast journalists toward her.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:02 PM | Report abuse

JakeD, I remember how Kornblut used to trash Clinton, who she was assigned to cover, during Primary season.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Washington Post (in the tank) Obama campaign reporter Anne E. Kornblut is online now -- I'm sure that will be quite a show -- let's see if she answers any questions we submitted ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 11:59 AM | Report abuse

I prefer C-SPAN -- it was interesting to see Williams / Brokaw talking over Sen. Thompson's speech -- they didn't do that during Michele Obama's ; )

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 11:57 AM | Report abuse

Uhhh. She didn't really discuss McCain's energy plan. Bizarre.

I'm changing channels. CNN is a waste. Might as well just read the DNC talking points, for all the "information" they give.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 11:55 AM | Report abuse

OMG, CNN is covering McCain's energy policy. Can't believe it. I wonder if they will provide accurate coverage or hostile, skeptical treatment of it.

LOL. The woman is talking more about Obama's "plan" than McCain's.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 11:54 AM | Report abuse

FWIW at least one "reporter" here at WaPo brought her name up prior to the leaked announcement (I'm sure they are all upset it wasn't someone on the "short list" because they had all there ammo ready to blast away at those picks):

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/08/gop_veepstakes_how_we_missed_i.html

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

Everything looks more sober and less flashy and high-gloss than the Dem convention. The RNC probably cost less than $1 million.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 11:47 AM | Report abuse

JakeD, the only reason why there was no public discussion of Palin's possible candidacy is that the media ignored her, while focusing on Jindal, Pawlenty and other "change" VP picks.

The media itself simply spaced her out, in its sexism.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 11:45 AM | Report abuse

Good point, AsperGirl. Governors Charlie Crist (Florida) and Bobby Jindal (Louisiana) have LESS time in office than Palin. Why is it that MALE Governors who were talked about as possible running mates weren't summarily dismissed in the press as "inexperienced"? Ms. O'Brian seems very full of herself. Maybe Hillary had a point about that "highest glass ceiling" after all?

Posted by: JakeD | September 3, 2008 11:39 AM | Report abuse

LOL. at 11:33 a.m., after declaring no one at CNN asked whether Palin could be VP with 5 kids, Soledad O'Brian asked someone this Q in an interview herself.

Wow. CNN is in full attack-Palin mode. They're out of control.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Soledad O'Brian was attacking and hostile-interrogating some Republican spokeswoman about Sarah Palin.

When the spokeswoman said that with her governor and mayor experience, Palin had more executive experience than Obama, O'Brian pressed with a question: give me an example. You could tell the spokeswoman was like, Is she real? What was the spokeswoman supposed to do, be able to recite: "On such-and-such a day Governor Palin negotiated a gas pipeline with such-and-such parties instead of...." The fact that O'Brian refused to accept without detailed testimony that being governor of Alaska for 2 years entailed executive experience, was strange. Her face was aggressive and adversarial as she pressed the spokeswoman for details of what executive things Palin might have done as governor.

Should we assume that Soledad O'Brian is very skeptical that Governor Palin herself was executing any of the functions of her office for the past 2 years?

When the spokeswoman also mentioned that Sarah Palin was coming under fire with sexist attacks that decried how was she going to serve as VP with 5 children, Soledad O'Brian also attacked with an aggressive, skeptical line of questioning. She was demanding (literally using a demanding tone) to be told who was saying such a thing. Again, the spokeswoman showed she was experiencing some cognitive dissonance over the attack, and then Soledad O'Brian declared she didn't know anyone at CNN who ever said such a thing. Apparently Soledad O'Brian has no "google" or news reader available to her, to read these headlines.

If you google "sexist palin five children" you get more than 6000 news hits, including the top-returned one at 11:30 a.m.:

"Can Palin handle role as VP candidate and mother of five?"

CNN is totally on the attack against Governor Palin. It's ugly and irrational. Mean, hostile-witness interrogation attitudes when Palin is the subject of some interview.

It's obvious why McCain pulled his interview with CNN. They are in some Palin-bashing la-la land.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Watching CNN attack and interrogate Republicans, as if they were hostile witnesses and liars. Bizarre. CNN anchors are acting like a bunch of lawyers commenting over a trial of conspirators.

Posted by: AsperGirl | September 3, 2008 11:22 AM | Report abuse

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