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McCain Stands Up for Joe


The crowd cheers and holds up signs as John McCain speaks at a rally at Florida International University in Miami, Oct. 17, 2008. (Carolyn Kaster/Associated Press)

Updated 4:33 p.m.
By Matthew Mosk
MIAMI -- Sen. John McCain made Joe the Plumber a household name. Now he wants Joe to know he's got his new friend's back.

Speaking to a boisterous crowd at Florida International University, McCain expressed dismay that the fame he brought on Joe Wurzelbacher has now turned the Ohio man into the focus of endless publicity, not all of it favorable.

For this, McCain blames his opponent, Barack Obama.

"The response from Senator Obama and his campaign yesterday was to attack Joe," McCain said. "People are digging through his personal life and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house. He didn't ask for Senator Obama to come to his house. He wasn't recruited or prompted by our campaign. He just asked a question. And Americans ought to be able to ask Senator Obama tough questions without being smeared and targeted with political attacks."

Press reports focused on Wurzelbacher's story for the past 48 hours have included mention of his lack of a plumbing license, and a tax lien.

The questions coming from the Obama campaign have been more mild. The McCain campaign has pointed to comments by another Joe, Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Biden. Biden said in an interview, "I don't have any Joe the Plumbers in my neighborhood who make $250,000 a year and are worried," Biden said.

"We're not criticizing Joe -- in fact Senator Obama's plan would give him a tax cut," said Tommy Vietor, an Obama spokesman. "But we are criticizing John McCain's tax plan because it gives billions in tax cuts to corporations while offering no relief to more than 100 million middle-class Americans."

McCain told the crowd in Miami that the question Joe asked about our economy "is important, because Senator Obama's plan would raise taxes on small businesses that employ 16 million Americans. Senator Obama's plan will kill those jobs at just the time when we need to be creating more jobs. My plan will create jobs, and that's what America needs."

McCain also offered some red meat to the Miami crowd, saying, "When I'm president, I won't meet unconditionally with the Castro brothers."

"The day is coming when Cuba will be free," he said, to a roar.

By Web Politics Editor  |  October 17, 2008; 2:36 PM ET
Categories:  Battlegrounds , John McCain  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Palin's 'Pro-America Areas' Remark: Extended Version
Next: Webb Tells Virginians: 'Trust Barack Obama'

Comments

thecannula,

Sorry friend (that's sarcasm, get it?), but your comments are based in ignorance, stupidity and obfuscation of facts, not "sarcasm".

I notice you are very good at posting the copy and paste diatribes, but you never do address questions put to you or back up your dubious statements with verifiable, unbiased facts. You simply resort to infantile behavior and name calling.

The only sunshine you're likely to see if Palin-McCain get elected is when you bend over and he sticks it to you. Or maybe you would prefer if Palin does it?

Actually you should be thanking me since when you elicit a reply you get paid more for your troll efforts. Consider it a gift.

I have also noticed those who have a modicum of intelligence and know how to bold and italicize in these blogs perturbs you to no end. Didn't they teach you how in troll training? It is really quite simple.

Oh, by the way, you and your comments do rather remind one of Estragon and Vladimir with a bit of Lucky thrown in for good measure.

Posted by: wes1155 | October 19, 2008 12:27 AM | Report abuse

thecannula,

Sorry freind (that's sarcasm, get it?), but your comments are based in ignorance, stupidity and obfuscation of facts, not "sarcasm".

I notice you are very good at posting the copy and paste diatribes, but you never do address questions put to you or back up your dubious statements with verifiable, unbiased facts. You simply resort to infantile behavior and name calling.

The only sunshine you're likely to see if Palin-McCain get elected is when you bend over and he sticks it to you. Or maybe you would prefer if Palin does it?

Actually you should be thanking me since when you elicit a reply you get paid more for your troll efforts. Consider it a gift.

I have also noticed those who have a modicum of intelligence and know how to bold and italicize in these blogs perturbs you to no end. Didn't they teach you how in troll training? It is really quite simple.

Oh, by the way, you and your comments do rather remind one of Estragon and Vladimir with a bit of Lucky thrown in for good measure.

Posted by: wes1155 | October 18, 2008 11:21 PM | Report abuse

WESS1155-
Jean Paul invented this new mode of expression it's called SARCASM, mon ami...
The French also socialized their government and were HONEST ABOUT IT- NOT LIKE MSR. OBAMA who IF elected INTENDS TO RAISE TAX RATES NORTH OF 55%...HEY MORON WHO WOULD STOP HIM? THE EVEN MORE DEMOCRAT CONGRESS?????????????
So go get a copy of Waiting for Godot-you're gonna need it IF Obama is elected and Small Businessmen and Businesswomen have to lay people off-small business IS the engine of employment in this country-
It's always good to plan for a very rainy day 1155...BUT the Gallup's down to 2, so we can only hope for sunshine!

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 6:52 PM | Report abuse

thecannula,

First of all I'll reserve judgment about whether I care to be your friend.

You have absolutely no credibility as far as I am concerned. Anyone who is writing; Oh! I am already planning on laying off one third of my employees and cutting my hours! Whoa is me! Whoa is me! Before the election is over and BEFORE a tax plan is actually passed by congress is quite frankly, a fool.

If you're really worried about it reincorporate in the Cayman Islands like so many US corporations have already done. This mind you during a Republican congress and executive branch control. So you're arguments are weak and thin at best.

Also, let us remember George H.W. Bush called Reagan's plan "voodoo economics". Remember? You know what? He was correct.

I h0ope you've put the extra income you've received from the RNC/Palin-McCain campaign into precious metals, because if they get elected it will be the only safe haven.

Posted by: wes1155 | October 18, 2008 6:24 PM | Report abuse

wes1155-
My feeble minded BOLD fonted friend-
Hope you've saved a lot during the Republican Presidential terms- the Democrat Depression MAY be on the way- with small businesses down sizing for the first time due to the first removal of the payroll cap on social security tax- what Bill Clinton called REGRESSIVE! Can you say 12% unemployment? Better bring a book when YOU line up!

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 5:56 PM | Report abuse

John McCain better have this Republi-bubba's back. You betcha.
There's a landslide coming (our do you think Obama's so desperate he's spending big bucks to go after conservative strongholds?) and the 'conservatives' are going to finally get what they deserve for the disaster of the past eight years.

There's a delicious taste to this. So post all the nonsense you want. It it won't save you. Republicans and their gnomish henchmen as soon to be long-term residents of the nearest underpass, railyard and shipping container.

And the newly elected can get about the business of cleaning up the mess these moral, ethical and intellectual black holes have left for us.

You've trashed our country, our civil rights and our economy and there will be consequences.

Definitely see you later.

Posted by: bgreen2224 | October 18, 2008 5:31 PM | Report abuse

Please READ this article and get to know the Real John McCain. This is sad! You can tell a lot about a man’s character by the way he treats his love ones…...Imagine your dad doing this to your mother.

This is a quote, but read the article from the link below...
"Ted Sampley, who fought with US Special Forces in Vietnam and is now a leading campaigner for veterans’ rights, said: ‘I have been following John McCain’s career for nearly 20 years. I know him personally. There is something wrong with this guy and let me tell you what it is – deceit.
‘When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it.
‘Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better.
‘This is a guy who makes such a big deal about his character. He has no character. He is a fake. If there was any character in that first marriage, it all belonged to Carol."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html

Posted by: leoruler | October 18, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

thecannula wrote:

National Business Association-

Small business statistics highlighted in the 2005 Small Business FAQ include:

Blah, blah, blah....

--------------------------------------

Why do you keep repeatedly posting the same figures with your bogus conclusion? Do you honestly believe it is going to influence anyone?

I have news for the trolls who incessantly post the same, tired nonsense, your taxes are going up no matter who gets elected, George Bush saw to that.

Now McCain claims he is going to balance the budget within his first term? Palin repeated this again today. Do you actually believe them and they will do this without raising taxes? If you do, share what you're smoking because we could all use some.

I find it interesting too the trolls here were the advanced guard for the RNC/Palin-McCain campaign, they started using the "socialist" card last night and McCain didn't start using it until this morning. It must have come out of the troll tactical meeting yesterday. What a crock!

I suppose tax cuts to working people, WORKING PEOPLE, not people who don't pay taxes as the trolls try to spin, can be considered by some as socialism just as tax cuts for the 5% could be considered to be as well.

I know this, more than a few people on these blogs are going to be out of a job come November 4th and I for one will welcome it. It won't be the result of anyone's tax plan either.

Posted by: wes1155 | October 18, 2008 2:52 PM | Report abuse

LKM2- "Liberals Kill Motivation 2"?

National Business Association-

Small business statistics highlighted in the 2005 Small Business FAQ include:

· Small businesses represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.

· Over the past decade, small business net job creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent.

· Small businesses generate more than 50 percent of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).

· Two-thirds of new employer establishments survive at least two years after start-up, and 44 percent survive at least four years.

· Small businesses employ half of all private sector employees.

· Very small firms with fewer than 20 employees spend 45 percent more per employee than the largest firms to comply with federal regulations.

· Minorities own 4.1 million firms that generate $694.1 billion in revenues and employ 4.8 million workers.

· Women own 6.5 million businesses that generate $950.6 billion in revenues, and employ 7.2 million workers.

· In 2004, an estimated 580,900 employer firms opened while an estimated 576,200 closed.


So, If 4.1 million firms generate 694 Billion dollars and 1/3rd close within 2 years, one can assume that the other 2/3 generate the majority of the revenue-
600 billion divided by 4.1 million x 2/3=
$219,780 mean revenue. If one assumes that that all small businesses are doing on average about as well as minority small businesses,
a profit of 250,000 doesn't seem too far fetched for a significant percentage of small businesses that employ people, since one person ebay sellers are included in these numbers!

So, if Obama wins- I'm one small businessman who will cut payroll AND revenue AND hours worked rather than give my hard earned dollars to ACORN and Ayers related education programs- raise taxes higher and we'll have 12% unemployment before long!


Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 1:58 PM | Report abuse

The fact is Obama's tax plan is just a return to the PROVEN system Bill Clinton used during the prosperity of his term in office. Bill Clinton left office with huge budget surpluses.
-Seemstone
?????????????????

From the San Francisco Chronicle (A Newspaper Endorsement for McCain?!)

Social Security rehab died first under Clinton
Lewinsky scandal, impeachment ended his overhaul attempt
Carolyn Lochhead, Chronicle Washington Bureau

Monday, April 11, 2005


Seven years ago, the first Baby Boomer president traveled the country to warn that his generation's impending retirement -- 76 million people, equal to the populations of California, Texas and Florida combined -- would bankrupt the generations to follow.

"It would be unconscionable if we failed to act," President Bill Clinton said at a forum in 1998, when he made fixing the nation's retirement program a top priority of his second term.

Clinton's efforts then, in light of President Bush's now, induce an extraordinary sense of déjà vu.

Clinton appointed a bipartisan commission, which delivered in 1997 three options to save the giant retirement program. They included a now-familiar list of possible benefit cuts, from changing indexing formulas to raising the retirement age.

One of the options would have allowed workers to divert 5 percentage points of their payroll taxes to personal accounts -- the first such proposal by a government commission.

Clinton started campaigning for changes, without saying what he endorsed. "I don't want to dodge any of that," he said, but "if I advocate a specific plan right now, then all the debate will be about that. The first thing we've got to do is get the American people solidly lined up behind change."

So he traveled the country in 1998, giving speeches, radio addresses, and holding town hall meetings with young workers and retirees.

He warned that it is better to "fix the roof when the sun is shining," and ran through the familiar arithmetic of the declining number of workers supporting every retiree. He urged finding ways to allow poorer workers to build wealth so they could "own a share of our nation's prosperity."

He pleaded for bipartisanship, promising that all ideas were on the table.

But he said there were really only three options: "We can raise payroll taxes again, which no one wants to do because the payroll tax is regressive ... We can cut benefits ... or we can work together to try to find some way to increase the rate of return."

SO CLINTON SAID NO ONE WANTS TO DO WHAT OBAMA WANTS TO DO BECAUSE IT'S REGRESSIVE!!!

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Obama's plan will allow small businesses to grow and to develop. We have been under republican rule for so long that our economy and ability to start businesses has been halted. The Republican agenda is to keep american's uneducated and helpless so that they do not question or challenge the corrupted activities going on in Government. That is the bottom line. We have been held HOSTAGE too long. The raping and pillaging of the backbone of this country has got to STOP!!!!! The war has brought so much money in for the ultra rich and corrupted officials. History repeats itself. Our president's grandfather made his money as a banker for Hitler! Again, Republicanism = corruption, theft, lies, greed, war, hate, oppression and control.

Posted by: LKM2 | October 18, 2008 1:38 PM | Report abuse

the real point is that raising taxes on the wealthy to give relief to the middle class removes any incentive for people to get rich....

Posted by: spritey | October 18, 2008 12:54 PM | Report abuse

Raising taxes on small businesses that employ low and middle income people inorder to give tax welfare ("tax credits") to people who currently pay NO federal income tax is what Bill Clinton called "REGRESSIVE"...you know bad for Joe Biden's 3 letter word- "J-O-B-S"!

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 1:30 PM | Report abuse

Wonder if McCain straight talked in his publicity stunt phone call to Joe what was on live airwaves yesterday by his own "fan":

FOX news GOP'er Conservative Malzberg insisted:

".. even though the actual Joe Wurzelbacher would do far better under Obama's tax plans, the real point is that raising taxes on the wealthy to give relief to the middle class removes any incentive for people to get rich....

Posted by: spritey | October 18, 2008 12:54 PM | Report abuse

From the SanFrancisco Chronicle

Social Security rehab died first under Clinton
Lewinsky scandal, impeachment ended his overhaul attempt
Carolyn Lochhead, Chronicle Washington Bureau

Monday, April 11, 2005

Seven years ago, the first Baby Boomer president traveled the country to warn that his generation's impending retirement -- 76 million people, equal to the populations of California, Texas and Florida combined -- would bankrupt the generations to follow.

"It would be unconscionable if we failed to act," President Bill Clinton said at a forum in 1998, when he made fixing the nation's retirement program a top priority of his second term.

Clinton's efforts then, in light of President Bush's now, induce an extraordinary sense of déjà vu.

Clinton appointed a bipartisan commission, which delivered in 1997 three options to save the giant retirement program. They included a now-familiar list of possible benefit cuts, from changing indexing formulas to raising the retirement age.

One of the options would have allowed workers to divert 5 percentage points of their payroll taxes to personal accounts -- the first such proposal by a government commission.

Clinton started campaigning for changes, without saying what he endorsed. "I don't want to dodge any of that," he said, but "if I advocate a specific plan right now, then all the debate will be about that. The first thing we've got to do is get the American people solidly lined up behind change."

So he traveled the country in 1998, giving speeches, radio addresses, and holding town hall meetings with young workers and retirees.

He warned that it is better to "fix the roof when the sun is shining," and ran through the familiar arithmetic of the declining number of workers supporting every retiree. He urged finding ways to allow poorer workers to build wealth so they could "own a share of our nation's prosperity."

He pleaded for bipartisanship, promising that all ideas were on the table.

But he said there were really only three options: "We can raise payroll taxes again, which no one wants to do because the payroll tax is regressive ... We can cut benefits ... or we can work together to try to find some way to increase the rate of return."

Rock head- CLINTON SAID NO ONE WANTS TO DO WHAT OBAMA WANTS TO DO BECAUSE IT'S REGRESSIVE!!!


Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 11:16 AM | Report abuse

The fact is Obama's tax plan is just a return to the PROVEN system Bill Clinton used during the prosperity of his term in office. Bill Clinton left office with huge budget surpluses.-Seemstone

You Seem to have a Stone in your cranium-

OBAMA WILL END THE SOC SECURITY PAYROLL TAX CAP THAT CLINTON EMPLOYED STONEBRAIN!


Rea Hederman-Presidential hopeful Senator Barack Obama (D–Ill.) has unveiled his economic plan of raising taxes on the successful. His plan would boost the top marginal rate to well over 55 percent—before the inclusion of state and local taxes—resulting in many individuals seeing their marginal tax rate double. The consequences of this policy would be a return to the bad old days of tax avoidance, with taxpayers disguising personal income as business income or capital gains and the migration of capital from the United States to abroad.

Among the more prominent elements of his tax proposal, Senator Obama would end the Bush tax cuts and allow the top two tax rates to return to 36 and 39.6 percent. He also would allow personal exemptions and deductions to be phased out for those with income over $250,000. The real kicker, though, is that Senator Obama would end the Social Security payroll tax cap for those over $250,000 in earnings. (The cap is currently set at $102,000.) These individuals will then face a tax rate of 15.65 percent from payroll taxes and the top income tax rate of 39.6 percent for a combined top rate of over 56 percent on each additional dollar earned.

High-income individuals will be forced to pay even more if they live in cities or states with high taxes such as New York City, California, or Maryland. These unlucky people would pay over two-thirds of each new dollar in earnings to the federal government.

How the Obama Tax Plan Compares to Other Countries

Senator Obama's new tax rate would give the United States one of the highest tax rates among developed countries. Currently only six of the top 30 industrial nations have a tax rate for all levels of government combined of over 55 percent. Under this tax plan, the United States would join this group and have a higher top rate than such high-tax nations as Sweden and Denmark. The top marginal rate would exceed 60 percent with the inclusion of state and local taxes, which means that only Hungary would exceed Senator Obama's new proposed top tax rate.


Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 10:49 AM | Report abuse

The fact is Obama's tax plan is just a return to the PROVEN system Bill Clinton used during the prosperity of his term in office. Bill Clinton left office with huge budget surpluses.

McCain's tax plan is just an extension of the PROVEN failure of the Bush tax system of rewarding the wealthy and corporations at the expense of the middle class. We are now cleaning up his mess.

People like "the cannulla" and "gspeye" like to argue theory and statistics but it's as simple as this: Are you better off now then you were eight years ago?

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Yikes: "The day is coming when Cuba will be free," he said, to a roar.
"

Is McWarHooverBushCain going to invade Cuba?

Th. J.

Posted by: Jefferson2008 | October 18, 2008 10:37 AM | Report abuse

How many people out there make over 250 grand a year? How many people have even seen 250 grand?
How many people out there make 40 grand like our friend Joe the Handyman? If you are like him you would be way better off with Obama's tax and healthcare plans.
The CEOs and Cindy McCain will have to give up a little more of their money, maybe have to live in 6 houses instead of seven.

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 10:19 AM | Report abuse

akpat- thanks for a civil answer - here's a civil response-

National Business Association-

Small business statistics highlighted in the 2005 Small Business FAQ include:

· Small businesses represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.

· Over the past decade, small business net job creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent.

· Small businesses generate more than 50 percent of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).

· Two-thirds of new employer establishments survive at least two years after start-up, and 44 percent survive at least four years.

· Small businesses employ half of all private sector employees.

· Very small firms with fewer than 20 employees spend 45 percent more per employee than the largest firms to comply with federal regulations.

· Minorities own 4.1 million firms that generate $694.1 billion in revenues and employ 4.8 million workers.

· Women own 6.5 million businesses that generate $950.6 billion in revenues, and employ 7.2 million workers.

· In 2004, an estimated 580,900 employer firms opened while an estimated 576,200 closed.


So, If 4.1 million firms generate 694 Billion dollars and 1/3rd close within 2 years, one can assume that the other 2/3 generate the majority of the revenue-
600 billion divided by 4.1 million x 2/3=
$219,780 mean revenue. If one assumes that that all small businesses are doing about as well as minority small businesses,
a profit of 250,000 doesn't seem too farfetched for a significant percentage of small businesses that employ people, since one person ebay sellers are included in these numbers!

So, if Obama wins- I'm one small businessman who will cut payroll AND revenue AND hours worked rather than give my hard earned dollars to ACORN and Ayers related education programs- raise taxes higher and we'll have 12% unemployment before long!


Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 9:53 AM | Report abuse

thecannula : comments regarding small businesses and revenue.

Most small businesses do not generate 250k of profit. As a small business we turn over 1 million but we cannot generate more than 1/2 half that amount.

We need to be careful of statements like 'revenue generation' and not confuse it with profit which is what you are taxed on. Many small businesses are restaurants and the certainly do not make 250k in profit. Your averaging doesn't take into account the distribution of the business type and profit so in a ll likelihood the top 10% make most of the money.

With regards to the re distribution of wealth the child tax credit has been running under Bush for the and it was a surprise to me that although someone I know paid no taxes they got money back from the IRS.

Now we can add corporate bailouts in the billions to this to people who should not have gotten it. In real terms the trickle down philosophy works if you are at the top but it just does not trickle down.

Posted by: akpat | October 18, 2008 9:12 AM | Report abuse

To all the Republicans...

Your "trickle down" theory is not working. Get over it. And besides, most of you are not making 250k a year anyway. You just have a very severe case of Stockholm Syndrome, where the victim becomes attached to the perpetrator.

Vote on policy, not gimmicks and rhetoric. Speaking as an independent, I think it's time for a change in policy. Someone is going to end up with your money, whether they be Wall Street, or Capital Hill.

Posted by: luvs4suckas | October 18, 2008 9:04 AM | Report abuse

How many hard working Americans do you know that make over two hundred and fifty thousand a year? Obamas tax plan is not aimed at these people anyway so even if Joe made that much it would not affect him significantly.
Obamas tax plan is aimed at the super rich and corporations,you know, the people who run WalMart and treat their employees so well.

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 9:01 AM | Report abuse

Under John McCain's plan, the rich would pay much less than they do now, the poor and middle-class would pay a bit less, and the federal deficit would grow, the study found."

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 8:46 AM | Report abuse
***************
Hey, so you're complining that EVERYBODY pays less tax in McCain's plan? In a recession, doesn't that make sense?
Since the Rich pay the vast majority of the taxes, doesn't that make sense that they het the biggest reduction?- the Obama plan is welfare in the form of tax credits- let's see- you paid no Federal Income Tax Last Year- as over 30% didn't, but here's a "refund" of $1200 THAT SOMEONE ELSE PAID! REFUND? you say?
What your analysis left out is unemployment- as a small businessman who has to declare profit as personal income (subchapter S corp, as is the majority of small bus.) I'm cutting staff, revenue, and time in the office. I'm going to spend more time at home with the kids, gardening in our Tony Rezko Memorial Garden, as we named our sideyard.
I guess Obama will employ workers displaced by his new tax structure, like FDR did- can you cost out 12% unempoyment for us next?

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 8:57 AM | Report abuse

to thecannula: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

One thing is true, the CEOs and Cindy McCains are scared of Obama.

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

The Tale of Joe the Senator and Joe the Plumber

(For the kids out there- just think of Joe as the middle class striving to do even better for themselves and their families- he could be Joe the lion tamer's assistant wanting to buy the circus- it doesn't matter)

McCain won the Debate by Introducing the Desires of Hard Working Americans to get Ahead Back into the Race in the Form of Joe the Plumber-

Joe the Plumber now has a voice, speaking for the middle and upper middle class, trying to get ahead. The REAL Rich has been represented by Penny Pritzker's Candidate. Joe said, sure today it's people making over 250K that will get killed by Obama's taxes, but soon, as Obama's agenda gets more expensive, it will be people making 150K, and so on...it's like that old saying about not speaking out when someone comes for your neighbors....soon there will no one left to speak out when someone comes for you.

Biden made over 245K(!just under the cut off!) a year over the past 10 years and gave less than $370/yr to charity!; But he feels it's "Patriotic" to ask Everyone ELSE to redistribute THEIR earnings.


You know Joe the Senator, LOTS of us wouldn't mind pulling down 245K a year, not paying higher taxes, not giving much to charity....JUST LIKE YOU!

Adjusted Biden
Gross Income Charity

1998 $215,432 $195

1999 $210,797 $120

2000 $219,953 $360

2001 $220,712 $360

2002 $227,811 $260

2003 $231,375 $260

2004 $234,271 $380

2005 $321,379 $380

2006 $248,459 $380

2007 $319,853 $995

Total $2,450,042 $3,690

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 8:46 AM | Report abuse

"The rich would pay more under Barack Obama's tax plan, and the poor and middle-class would pay less, a nonpartisan analysis finds. Under John McCain's plan, the rich would pay much less than they do now, the poor and middle-class would pay a bit less, and the federal deficit would grow, the study found."

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 8:46 AM | Report abuse

Again, Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher is related to Charles “the Crook” Keating. He is definately a plant by the McCain Camp who have nothing else left but to lower themselves in this manner. The Mcain/Palin team stands for: Poverty, War, Anger, Hatred, Cheating the american middleclass,increased taxes on the middleclass, Lies, the ultra wealthy, self-indulgences. The American People are tired of the Republican lies and continued assault on the american middleclass. The young people of this country are not stupid and can clearly see what the McCain/Palin ticket truely represent.

Posted by: LKM2 | October 18, 2008 8:17 AM | Report abuse

McCain just announced if he's elected, Joe the Plumber will have a cabinet-level position in his administration.

Posted by: hamishdad | October 18, 2008 8:16 AM | Report abuse

Joe is a funny guy, but plumber he is not. I would like for joe to come clean at the next press conference. John mccain is an old fool. He should realize that gimmicks won't get him over the hump.

The problems are too serious for a joker like mccain. He will go down in history as the ultimate flip flopper.

ROBOCALLS

LIES

POW STATUS WELL DRIED UP


Posted by: r4147824 | October 18, 2008 8:12 AM | Report abuse

Joe is an opportunistic fraud who is looking for a way out of the toilet life style he is in. A lifestyle imposed on him by the very top down economic system he pretends to defend.
Look for him soon on Fox.
Move over Geraldo, it's Joe the Plumber.

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 7:29 AM | Report abuse

IF PALIN IS SO QUALIFIED...
Then why didn't she run for president?

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 18, 2008 7:21 AM | Report abuse

In all fairness, McCain is not Bush but there is an 90% chance he would continue policies very similar to Bush's regarding the middle class. Who do you think would get frozen out in his spending freeze?
The rich and corporations would get more tax cuts since McCain supports the Reagan school of wealth concentration.
Did you notice any time the rich get taxed it's contemptuously called redistribution of wealth or socialism?
But when the middle class has to carry more of a tax burden it's promoted as fair and the natural order of things. Never concentration of wealth or elitism or greed.
Like Bush and Cheney, McCain is willing to exploit the neo-fascist tendencies of his supporters to curtail government interference with the new elite and their wealth taken from the middle class.
Using nationalistic fervor and xenophobia directed at Obama, Palin has shown that it is easy to manipulate the masses of Republicans. Government is portrayed as evil and not a necessary part of a democracy run by the people. The free market is touted as the best form of government , that is , until it recently collapsed and had to be rescued by us, the middle class.

Posted by: seemstome | October 18, 2008 7:11 AM | Report abuse

OOOPS! My bad!

"It's NOT McCain's call" ! I should have said in previous post....

Posted by: franglais | October 18, 2008 6:19 AM | Report abuse

McCain brought up Joe at the debate, not Obama. He beat the guys name into mainstream media's head, but he didn't "vet" him first.

McCain keeps saying, "we have to know more about Obama, and his ties."

Fair enough.
He's saying we have to look into people.

If he had looked into Joe beforehand, maybe he would have found things out, and not have brought up his name at the debate so man times.

It's McCain's call to say who gets looks into, and who gets a free pass.

Posted by: franglais | October 18, 2008 6:17 AM | Report abuse

gspeye,

Well...maybe...and then again maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see won't we. The Palin-McCain campaign have taken many statements out of context so far to little effect.

Actually, even though you and Palin-McCain are twisting his response, there are a lot of people feeling like after $700 billion to bail out the top 5%, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea. It's called equity.

The rest of your remarks aren't even worth responding to, just off shore paid RNC/Palin-McCain troll rhetoric.

Posted by: wes1155 | October 18, 2008 4:37 AM | Report abuse

"We need to spread the wealth". These 6 words may have spelled Obama's defeat on November 4th. That is why the Main Stream Press, (euphemism for Obama Central) is saying that McCain should have vetted Joe the Plumber. VETTED! you ding bats have become so scared of what this may do to the campaign you are doing nutty stuff like vetting a citizen that merely asked a question of your man Barack. Barack then spoke those 6 great but all telling words that mean: Wealth distribution, Maoist, Communistic or more plainly the Democratic agenda. It is not Joe the plumber who should be attacked it should be Joe Biden for being so close to Barack that the Gaff Machine permeated Barack's head. Barack has FINALLY EXPOSED HIS SELF TO HIS ADORING PUBLIC. Now they see the Robin Hood of the extreme left wing of the Democratic Party who's agenda is to re-distribute the wealth, spend and tax this Country into the second Great Depression. Those of you who haven't heard of the Great Depression...well just get ready to stand in a soup line while Barack and Michelle, Ayers and the Rev. Wright are munching on caviar and sipping champagne in The White House.

Posted by: gspeye | October 18, 2008 4:15 AM | Report abuse

Obama was had by Joe the plumber and he knows it now. Joe wasn't getting ready to buy a business and he knew that the business didn't make $250K per year. You can imagine the laughs, slaps on the back, and jokes Joe is getting on the job. “And away goes trouble down the drain”. Obama is furious as you can see from this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqis9mRcWl4

The unfortunate thing is that Joe the Plumber is exactly who Obama should be fighting for.

http://ewebsmith.com/Finance/playboys.html

Posted by: websmith1 | October 18, 2008 3:34 AM | Report abuse

thecannula wrote:

Hey Camp Obama-

Blah, blah, blah...

----------------------------------------

Hmm, yeah, I'd take whatever the New York Post says as gospel. Let's just give the benefit of the doubt and say it is true, so what? Do you think Cindy and John ate at Nathan's or the Automat? Do you know who paid the bill? No. But not knowing the facts doesn't seem to be very troublesome does it?

Posted by: wes1155 | October 18, 2008 3:09 AM | Report abuse

NYPOST: October 17, 2008 --

THOUGH he's battling GOP accusations that he's an Ivy League elitist, Barack Obama has a lifestyle of the rich and famous, like TV show host Robin Leach , who always signed off, 'Champagne wishes and caviar dreams!' While he was at a meeting at the Waldorf-Astoria at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Michelle Obama called room service and ordered lobster hors d'oeuvres, two whole steamed lobsters, Iranian caviar and champagne...

Hey Camp Obama-
Some of your $5 donations to Obama and the Palestinians $1000
donations went to Caviar and Champagne on Obama's room service tab at the Waldorf Astoria last night....I hope he saved some to give to ACORN to use in Ohio to bribe more young "voters" to register 72 times!

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 2:14 AM | Report abuse


13 Rabbit says :

Smoke Jaguar is a trickster, like coyote, and does not know himself.

Posted by: dbj1 | October 18, 2008 1:38 AM | Report abuse

Smoke_Jaguar:

My wife and I both have graduate school degrees -- we have already voted for McCain-Palin -- what do you think about that?

Posted by: JakeD | October 18, 2008 12:44 AM | Report abuse

First selecting Sarah Palin for VP (who's been doing this for, like, 5 weeks)
Then 'suspending' his campaign
Now 'Joe the Plumber'

Who the heck is running McCain's campaign? Jerry Springer? The WWF? Mike Judge?

More importantly, are people really so gullible that they actually believe any of this? Perhaps McCain's staff should watch 'Idiocracy' for their next great idea.

Posted by: Smoke_Jaguar4 | October 18, 2008 12:28 AM | Report abuse

thecanulla spewed: "pray tell me how you "CUT" the bottom 30% who currently pay NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX under your friend and mine, George W Bush?"

Give'em a fricken loan to buy their bosses plumbing business. That way EVERYONE can make $250K/yr. -notoriousflavio
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Hey "Nosfaratu"-

The Wizard gave the Scarecrow a diploma instead of a brain - I see you got a BOLD font key!
You go make the money to hand out 250k loans and let me know how it works out for ya-
I'm going to lay off a few workers and toil in my Rezko Memorial Side Yard garden, in order to cut both my outlay and my hours at work instead of giving my hard earned cash to Obama to fund ACORN and AYERS related education programs!


Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 12:13 AM | Report abuse

b

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 18, 2008 12:09 AM | Report abuse

b

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 18, 2008 12:09 AM | Report abuse

I find it very interesting that most of the pro McCain supporters miss the the very salient point:TO PAY MORE TAX YOU MUST EARN MORE MONEY. broedd2003
**********
Right genius, so after I have covered my nut, I'm going home and playing with my kids rather than killing myself so Obama can distribute my hard earned cash to ACORN and Radical Education Programs, like the one he supported with Ayres...I'll probably lay off 1/3rd of my employees- let Obama employ them, like FDR did in the last Depression....note I didn't call it the GREAT Depression- that one's coming soon to you and Obama- Hey, did you see the room service bill for Barack and Michelle at the Waldorf last night? Caviar and Champagne all the way!

Posted by: thecannula | October 18, 2008 12:00 AM | Report abuse

National Business Association-

Small business statistics highlighted in the 2005 Small Business FAQ include:

· Small businesses represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.

· Over the past decade, small business net job creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent.

· Small businesses generate more than 50 percent of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).

· Two-thirds of new employer establishments survive at least two years after start-up, and 44 percent survive at least four years.

· Small businesses employ half of all private sector employees.

· Very small firms with fewer than 20 employees spend 45 percent more per employee than the largest firms to comply with federal regulations.

· Minorities own 4.1 million firms that generate $694.1 billion in revenues and employ 4.8 million workers.

· Women own 6.5 million businesses that generate $950.6 billion in revenues, and employ 7.2 million workers.

· In 2004, an estimated 580,900 employer firms opened while an estimated 576,200 closed.


So, If 4.1 million firms generate 694 Billion dollars and 1/3rd close within 2 years, one can assume that the other 2/3 generate the majority of the revenue-
600 billion divided by 4.1 million x 2/3=
$219,780 mean revenue. One can imagine that all small businesses are doing at least as well as minority small businesses.
A profit of 250,000 doesn't seem too farfetched for a significant percentage of small businesses that employ people, since one person ebay sellers are included in these numbers!

Keep it up Obama- I'm one small businessman who will cut payroll AND revenue AND hours worked rather than give my hard earned dollars to ACORN and Ayers related education programs- raise taxes higher and we'll have 12% unemployment before long!


Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 11:55 PM | Report abuse

The only way Joe the Plumber will pay higher taxes any time soon is if he wins a lottery jackpot or is adopted by John and Cindy McCain. Joe, if I were you, I'd forget your narrow-minded Republican programming and vote for Obama who'll give you three times the tax break McCain will. Hopefully then, you can pay your back taxes, get your plumber's license, join a union and earn three times what you're earning now. Even if you succeed at this, you won't be paying higher taxes.

Posted by: ThePhotogsBlog | October 17, 2008 11:50 PM | Report abuse

ottothewise wrote "Death threats and vandalism against ACORN...That's the Palin syndrome.

You see ottothewise, when you have a very small brain, it gets overload REALLY easily. Everything kinda just short-circuits and goes zzzzt-zzzzt

All that's left is violence.

But seriously, that's what cowards do...violence; because they can't handle the truth.

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 10:48 PM | Report abuse

Death threats and vandalism against ACORN

That's the Palin syndrome. McCain does nothing.

Where are the big high black boots and the swastikas?


Congressman Lewis was right. He was just 4 days early.

The Nazi's are in town now. No one's safe.

VOTE.

Posted by: ottothewise | October 17, 2008 10:45 PM | Report abuse

IF PALIN IS SO QUALIFIED...

Then why didn't she run for president?

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

McCain calls Obama's tax plan "welfare" but not his trillion dollar giveaway. $300 billion of Mccain's give away for banks, with no receipt. He's just going to take your money and give it to the banks.

That welfare for the rich and famous. Forget you ordinary people.
You get the propaganda about the welfare state and socialism.
while the banks drink your blood. That's what's happening.

Stand back. You are in the way.

Posted by: ottothewise | October 17, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

star_key2 spewed: "John Kerry had a rich wife, 12 houses, was in the senate forever and a vietnam vet to boot and it was ok... "

Kindegarten is now in session:

HE LOST!

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 10:42 PM | Report abuse

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/730941.html

Death threats and vandalism against ACORN

That's the Palin syndrome. McCain does nothing.

Where are the big high black boots and the swastikas?

Posted by: ottothewise | October 17, 2008 10:35 PM | Report abuse


Uh oh! The smoke is starting to clear and the mirrors are cracking.

A chameleon is not infinitely dynamic.

Posted by: dbj1 | October 17, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

John Kerry had a rich wife, 12 houses, was in the senate forever and a vietnam vet to boot and it was ok...

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse

MCCAIN IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH MIDDLE-CLASS AMERICA'S ECONOMIC TROUBLES! McCain in April 08 declared that there had been "great progress economically" during the Bush years. On more than one occasion, he diagnosed Americans' concerns over the dismal U.S. economy as "psychological." (Phil Gramm, McCain's close friend and economic adviser supposedly excommunicated over his "whiners" remarks, is back with the McCain campaign full time again.) McCain, a man who owns eight homes nationwide, in March lectured Americans facing foreclosure that they ought to be "doing what is necessary -- working a second job, skipping a vacation, and managing their budgets -- to make their payments on time." And when all else fails, McCain told the people of the economically devastated regions in Martin County, Kentucky and Youngstown, Ohio, there's always eBay. McCain doesn't understand our tanking economy because it doesn't affect him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FD_M2BEl64

*The $100 Million Man*
Courtesy of his wife Cindy's beer distribution fortune (one her late father apparently chose not to share with her half-sister Kathleen), the McCains are worth well over $100 million. (In the two-page tax summary she eventually released to the public, Cindy McCain reported another $6 million in 2006.) As Salon reported back in 2000, the second Mrs. McCain's millions were essential in launching her husband's political career. Unsurprisingly, the Weekly Standard's Matthew Continetti, who four years ago called Theresa Heinz-Kerry a "sugar mommy," has been silent on the topic of Cindy McCain.

*The Joys of (Eight) Home Ownership*
While fellow adulterer John Edwards was pilloried for his mansion, John McCain's eight homes around the country have received little notice or criticism. His properties include a 10 acre lake-side Sedona estate, euphemistically called a "cabin" by the McCain campaign, and a home featured in Architectural Digest. The one featuring "remote control window coverings" was recently put up for sale. Still, their formidable resources did not prevent the McCains from failing to pay taxes on a tony La Jolla, California condo used by Cindy's aged aunt.

*The Anheuser-Busch Windfall*
While John McCain played a critical role in facilitating DHL's takeover of Airborne (and with it, the looming loss of 8,000 jobs in Wilmington, Ohio), Cindy McCain is set to earn a staggering multi-million dollar pay-day from the acquisition of Anheuser-Busch by the Belgian beverage giant, In Bev. As the Wall Street Journal reported in July, Mrs. McCain runs the third largest Anheuser-Busch distributorship in the nation, and owns between $2.5 and $5 million in the company's stock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxT0s_I5WtA

Posted by: DrainYou | October 17, 2008 10:08 PM | Report abuse

National Business Association-

Small business statistics highlighted in the 2005 Small Business FAQ include:

· Small businesses represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.

· Over the past decade, small business net job creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent.

· Small businesses generate more than 50 percent of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).

· Two-thirds of new employer establishments survive at least two years after start-up, and 44 percent survive at least four years.

· Small businesses employ half of all private sector employees.

· Very small firms with fewer than 20 employees spend 45 percent more per employee than the largest firms to comply with federal regulations.

· Minorities own 4.1 million firms that generate $694.1 billion in revenues and employ 4.8 million workers.

· Women own 6.5 million businesses that generate $950.6 billion in revenues, and employ 7.2 million workers.

· In 2004, an estimated 580,900 employer firms opened while an estimated 576,200 closed.


So, If 4.1 million firms generate 694 Billion dollars and 1/3rd close within 2 years, one can assume that the other 2/3 generate the majority of the revenue-
600 billion divided by 4.1 million x 2/3=
$219,780 mean revenue. One can imagine that all small businesses are doing at least as well as minority small businesses.
A profit of 250,000 doesn't seem too farfetched for a significant percentage of small businesses that employ people, since one person ebay sellers are included in these numbers!

Keep it up Obama- I'm one small businessman who will cut payroll AND revenue AND hours worked rather than give my hard earned dollars to ACORN and Ayers related education programs- raise taxes higher and we'll have 12% unemployment before long!


Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 10:00 PM | Report abuse

National Business Association-

Small business statistics highlighted in the 2005 Small Business FAQ include:

· Small businesses represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.

· Over the past decade, small business net job creation fluctuated between 60 and 80 percent.

· Small businesses generate more than 50 percent of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).

· Two-thirds of new employer establishments survive at least two years after start-up, and 44 percent survive at least four years.

· Small businesses employ half of all private sector employees.

· Very small firms with fewer than 20 employees spend 45 percent more per employee than the largest firms to comply with federal regulations.

· Minorities own 4.1 million firms that generate $694.1 billion in revenues and employ 4.8 million workers.

· Women own 6.5 million businesses that generate $950.6 billion in revenues, and employ 7.2 million workers.

· In 2004, an estimated 580,900 employer firms opened while an estimated 576,200 closed.


So, If 4.1 million firms generate 694 Billion dollars and 1/3rd close witin 2 years, one can assume that the other 2/3 generate the majority of the revenue-
600 billion divided by 4.1 million x 2/3=
$219,780 mean revenue. One can imagine that all small businesses are doing at least as well as minority small businesses.
A profit of 250,000 doesn't seem too farfetched for a significant percentyage of small businesses that employ people, since one person ebay sellers are included in these numbers!

Keep it up Obama- I'm one small businessman who will cut payroll AND revenue AND hours worked rather than give my hard earned dollars to ACORN and Ayers related education programs- raise taxes higher and we'll have 12% unemployment before long!

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 9:59 PM | Report abuse

Obama finally figured out that he was had by Joe the Plumber and he's mad now. Joe wasn't getting ready to buy a business and Joe knew that the business wasn't making $250K per year, but he sucked Obama in like a whirlpool in a toilet.

Joe's middle name is Joe and everyone calls him Joe. He has been doing this for over ten years and works for a licensed plumber, which makes everything legal. Joe is a real plumber. He is just not a union plumber and the unions don’t like it. Like millions of Americans, he struggles to pay taxes and survive. Don’t worry, the feds will seize his bank account just when his mortgage is due and Joe will pay his taxes.

http://ewebsmith.com/Finance/playboys.html

Posted by: websmith1 | October 17, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

"give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him to fish he eats for a lifetime."

A person making 20k year getting a $1,000.00 a year sounds good, but if he/she loses their job it is meaningless. If company has 10 employees making $20,000 a year that's a $200,000 pay roll. Add in the payroll taxes yo easily get to the $250,000.00 level and that's before the owner pays himself or has any "profit". It's easy to give someone else's money away, but it sucks if you lose your job!

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Rea Hederman-Presidential hopeful Senator Barack Obama (D–Ill.) has unveiled his economic plan of raising taxes on the successful. His plan would boost the top marginal rate to well over 55 percent—before the inclusion of state and local taxes—resulting in many individuals seeing their marginal tax rate double. The consequences of this policy would be a return to the bad old days of tax avoidance, with taxpayers disguising personal income as business income or capital gains and the migration of capital from the United States to abroad.

Among the more prominent elements of his tax proposal, Senator Obama would end the Bush tax cuts and allow the top two tax rates to return to 36 and 39.6 percent. He also would allow personal exemptions and deductions to be phased out for those with income over $250,000. The real kicker, though, is that Senator Obama would end the Social Security payroll tax cap for those over $250,000 in earnings. (The cap is currently set at $102,000.) These individuals will then face a tax rate of 15.65 percent from payroll taxes and the top income tax rate of 39.6 percent for a combined top rate of over 56 percent on each additional dollar earned.

High-income individuals will be forced to pay even more if they live in cities or states with high taxes such as New York City, California, or Maryland. These unlucky people would pay over two-thirds of each new dollar in earnings to the federal government.

How the Obama Tax Plan Compares to Other Countries

Senator Obama's new tax rate would give the United States one of the highest tax rates among developed countries. Currently only six of the top 30 industrial nations have a tax rate for all levels of government combined of over 55 percent. Under this tax plan, the United States would join this group and have a higher top rate than such high-tax nations as Sweden and Denmark. The top marginal rate would exceed 60 percent with the inclusion of state and local taxes, which means that only Hungary would exceed Senator Obama's new proposed top tax rate.


Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 9:18 PM | Report abuse

Presidential hopeful Senator Barack Obama (D–Ill.) has unveiled his economic plan of raising taxes on the successful. His plan would boost the top marginal rate to well over 55 percent—before the inclusion of state and local taxes—resulting in many individuals seeing their marginal tax rate double. The consequences of this policy would be a return to the bad old days of tax avoidance, with taxpayers disguising personal income as business income or capital gains and the migration of capital from the United States to abroad.

Among the more prominent elements of his tax proposal, Senator Obama would end the Bush tax cuts and allow the top two tax rates to return to 36 and 39.6 percent. He also would allow personal exemptions and deductions to be phased out for those with income over $250,000. The real kicker, though, is that Senator Obama would end the Social Security payroll tax cap for those over $250,000 in earnings. (The cap is currently set at $102,000.) These individuals will then face a tax rate of 15.65 percent from payroll taxes and the top income tax rate of 39.6 percent for a combined top rate of over 56 percent on each additional dollar earned.

High-income individuals will be forced to pay even more if they live in cities or states with high taxes such as New York City, California, or Maryland. These unlucky people would pay over two-thirds of each new dollar in earnings to the federal government.

How the Obama Tax Plan Compares to Other Countries

Senator Obama's new tax rate would give the United States one of the highest tax rates among developed countries. Currently only six of the top 30 industrial nations have a tax rate for all levels of government combined of over 55 percent. Under this tax plan, the United States would join this group and have a higher top rate than such high-tax nations as Sweden and Denmark. The top marginal rate would exceed 60 percent with the inclusion of state and local taxes, which means that only Hungary would exceed Senator Obama's new proposed top tax rate.

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 9:15 PM | Report abuse

I am going to vote Obama thats what i thought but then I heard today joking of Joe the Plumber i gave a deeper thought what does that mean.
He is going to scare away any one who is going to make more than $250k a sucessful business in year or more makes more than 250k in a year or more. So this becomes unfavourable environment for small business net result JOB LOSS and it would hurt we would need to import more that means wealth is transferred out of country not just the jobs

Ok I am middle class person i would gain benefits in these tough times with Obama's tax plans.but i need to have steady income firts to get tax cuts if big and small business are scared away , how does wheel of wealth move.

Leave alone above 2 Obama's health plan is much better, every one is going to be federally insured so Govt is taking health care into its hands, but with all buerocracy and econimic woos who much would govt really fund these programs. These programs than would manage govt instead of other way. Govt and these programs would become inefficient because of this


I forget above 3 Obama can steer economy beter way i believe in this as every other American,But what is the basis for this does have a proven record ? no !!! he has'nt come up with any innovative plan he is proposing tax plans at one end trying to collect other way and wealth generation process is going to hell.

He didnt say anythign about saving housing values to Market value, as long as housing is not fixed can some one put brakes to sliding economy. He hasnt addressed issue of how he is going to correct wall street , he never said he is going to roll heads or hold people accountable

then what is it thats making Obama favourable , Average american is hurt by current state of economy which has many factors, and is anti Governament , Obama has pressed right tunes and has cashed on economic centiments of people.This was done in same way by George Bush by cashing centiments on patriotism and national security

Who is Obama First time senator what does his record say about him, has he done anything out of box in these 4 years,is he reformer does he stand to his words of election reforms , abortion. what is his ability as visionary ? if we build 42 nuclear power plants its going to be huge Market ,existing wealth is not distributed rather new wealth is created

Words speak more than deeds, you cant fool all people all time , Media needs tobe more responsible it has to respect thoughts of american people and not indulge in propoganda

I am still thinking what best would be served if i vote for Obama or Mccain

Posted by: mrn744 | October 17, 2008 9:09 PM | Report abuse

For all you FDR fans(a good president by the way): The post war prosperity of the United States which peaked in 50's was not because of the "New Deal" it was because the United States was the only major industrialized nation that wasn't literally in ruins. Our country lead the world industrially for many years (no competition) until Europe and Japan were rebuilt (with our help of course).

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 9:01 PM | Report abuse

I am not sure why he is such an ideologue for the Republicans when the Democrats will really help him.

Posted by: Merlin50 | October 17, 2008 3:32 PM

bitter.

Posted by: ottothewise | October 17, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Why should I be concerned about someone "spreading the wealth. Like most Americans, I don't have any wealth. McCain has wealth and like most Americans who have wealth, it is unearned wealth. He might need to worry but I sure don't.

Posted by: smi2le | October 17, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Re: The Taxacrats.

I live on Social Security and a modest pension. The fact that one percent of our taxpayers, the people who are willing to work more than forty hours a week and who are willing to invest their assets on the chance of increasing or losing their wealth by creating jobs, should pay forty percent of tax burden is not only unfair, it is obscene.

Posted by: hank_v | October 17, 2008 8:56 PM | Report abuse


i hope chuckie darwin was wrong...

why?

well.. i'm not sure i want the republican party to just shrivel up and go away even though they are the weaker of the species...

i just think they are so dog gone entertaining! so don't let em go!

say it isn't so, joe!!!

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 17, 2008 8:49 PM | Report abuse

Palin and her pals from Wasilla high school were enjoying running Alaska like a fiefdom, ignoring state law, by using Yahoo to do state business and avoiding the Freedom of information Act.
You betcha! She wishes she had stayed in Alaska, right about now. Some Republican is suing her for access to her state government emails she did on Yahoo. A Republican!!!
And the formal personnel investigation is not over. You betcha!!

Posted by: ottothewise | October 17, 2008 8:48 PM | Report abuse

MsRita, I would love to discuss your healthcare plan with you, but first I wanted to ask if you think there's a "real" plumber in this country who makes more than $250,000? That's what THIS thread is about.

Did you also see that McCain, back in 1990 changed his mind on MLK Jr. holiday?

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 8:46 PM | Report abuse

News Flash - The "surplus" of the Clinton years is mythology. It's not like the government ever had extra money lying around. It was 10-year projection based on the current (1994-6) economic conditions (including projected growth) and tax revenues increasing as personal income increased. The economic growth projection being the lion's share of it. It did not happen (many other things did) and higher taxes will still not make it happen. Only decreased growth of government (less spending overall...you pick what you want to cut) and an economic turn around will make any kind of "projected" surplus a reality again.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 8:45 PM | Report abuse

I view the poll from NORTH DAKOTA as a glorious revelation.
TIED.

The timing is such that it reveals and relates to the Alaskan senate report of Palins
1. abuse of power
2. breaking of the public trust
3. requiring her employees to abuse their power and break the public trust lest they be fired or otherwise punished by the all-too-obviously vindictive governor.
4. Palin's lame denial, based on being found not guilty of one count of inappropriate firing of the boss of the trooper, TRUE
and lies and denials about the other well documented factual statutory (law) marks against her by the senate.

Looks like THAT pack of lies went over well in North Dakota.

In a few days we shall see how the pure facts of Joe the not-a-plumber went over.
1. He lied about wanting to buy the company. Its not for sale.
2. He lied about how much the company makes.
3. In so misrepresenting his income and the income of the company he prevented real 'consideration' of the facts of Obama's much better tax plan for him.
But now, as the truth about Joe/Sam's $40K income has come out, Sam/Joe and all America get to learn that Obama's tax plan is $500 better for Sam/Joe the not-a-plumber.
And we all got to learn that since the company made $100K not $280K, the company would do much better under Obama TOO.

Thanks Joe, Sam, and Sarah for a great week of lies.


Posted by: ottothewise | October 17, 2008 8:43 PM | Report abuse

I was hoping it wasn't true BUT it looks like John is losing what's left of his rational mind. He continues playing the "Joe The Plumber" game even though; 1) Joe is not a plumber, 2) Joe doesn't own a business, 3) Joe makes about $40,000 a year and gets a tax break on Obamas plan, 4) Joe doesn't pay his taxes so he could probably use the break!

Hang in there John!

Posted by: inewsmaster | October 17, 2008 8:41 PM | Report abuse

IF PALIN IS SO QUALIFIED

Then why didn't she run for president?

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 8:41 PM | Report abuse


if this wonderful law abiding citizen joe the whateverthef*ckheis cares so much about his taxation rate and tax bracket...

why doesn't he PAY his taxes to begin with?

LOL

what a dork.

joe says, "i can see the irs tax evasion prison from my porch!"

you betcha!

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 17, 2008 8:39 PM | Report abuse

Our Plan for a family of 5 with my husbands company paid insurance cost 1,200 per month. $10 co-pay and no deductions from his paycheck for our Medical. The Government has may more people so the cost would be even lower maybe around 200 dollars per month for private use. I think it is a great idea for America. People can buy in for a fraction of the cost. We don't pay know but who know what the future holds.

Posted by: MsRita | October 17, 2008 8:38 PM | Report abuse

OK, mot2win, I make more than $250,000 per year. Does that make a difference in what star_key2 just posted?

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 8:35 PM | Report abuse

The only thing "Joe" did is ask a question that Obama answered in a way most americans would feel uneasy about. Whether he was a plant or not doesn't matter. The answer given however matters a whole lot and it was freely given.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 8:32 PM | Report abuse

This whole Joe the plumber thing is yet another stupid distraction from the important issues facing America. Of course McCain should have looked into Joe if he was going to invoke him in the debate, but it really makes no difference. The answer to Joe's question is that there are extremely few people in the position of having to worry about a slight extra tax burden because they make over $250,000.

The simple fact is that the US Treasury must collect more taxes because it cannot forever spend more money than it collects. Every tax law impacts someone, the question is what tax law works best for the most people. I don't think that any sane person can claim that the Republican notion of extremely low taxes for the very rich and big corporations, has worked for AMerica. Under several Republican Presidents the US has built up an almost unbearable deficit, while the last Democratic President actually paid back some of the deficit.

I will be negatively impacted by the Obama tax plan. I will pay substantial inheritance taxes that Bush tried to eliminate, but we must balance the budget if we are to avoid a complete loss of confidence in the US dollar. The tax increases necessary now are a direct consequence of the taxes not paid by corporations and the extremely wealthy over the past 3 decades.

Posted by: bjuhasz | October 17, 2008 8:31 PM | Report abuse

Further proof of dementia brought on in part by the untreated, angry form of PTSD McCain't suffers from. He's the fool who dragged Joe...er Sam the plumber...er not who worries....or doesn't about paying taxes. The skinhead, registered republican who hasn't made $250,000 in any combined five years of his life.

Posted by: mot2win | October 17, 2008 8:27 PM | Report abuse


i think it is kind of funny though...

of all the people mccain could have brought to his side...

mike the mechanic
pete the painter
bob the barber
steve the stenographer
sally the salesman
riker the biker
manny the manager
seka the secretary
ralph the roofer
carter the carpenter
marista the barista
artie the artist
scully the sculptor
pop the cop
jeff the chef
richard the rancher

or even gabbie the cabbie...

senile mccain chose some ultra white guy who doesn't pay his bills, and is illegally practicing a skilled trade without a license...

priceless.

:D

run johnny mcgump, run!


Posted by: FozzieBear | October 17, 2008 8:22 PM | Report abuse

MsRita

It's "facts" not "facks". Political disagreements do not make you stupid. When you are not allowed to disagree without being maligned freedom is in jeopardy. If enough people vote Obama he will win. If not he won't. It's that simple. Everyone makes up the mind over there own issues.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 8:20 PM | Report abuse

Thank you to those who responded to my 3:33 post.

I'm aware that some CEO's earn extremely large paychecks. So do some professional athletes, entertainers, former presidents, and others. How they earn those checks is another reflection of economic incentives: there's a limited supply of the talent, skill, or celebrity the job requires. The marketplace determines what these people (and the rest of us) are paid -- not on the basis of "fairness," but on the basis of return on investment. Whether I enjoy a certain performer's work, or understand everything entailed in a certain CEO's job, is irrelevant. The marketplace decides, based on supply and demand.

If your point is that some of those CEO's are "unfairly" earning their pay, that's true for some -- particularly those whose company is tied up with the federal government, a la Fannie and Freddie. Otherwise, there are substantial risks to those who overreach that way. Don't mistake the headline-grabbing exceptions for the rule. And in any case, even gross inequalities in income aren't evidence of a need to "spread the wealth around." Meanwhile, there's plenty of historical evidence of the tragic human and financial consequences whenever someone attempts to do that "spreading around."

Another respondent claims that "economics" is merely theoretical. Well, yes, but all theory (including economic theory) is not created equal. It is supported, or not, by experience. We have centuries of experience that demonstrate the "invisible hand" of incentives at work in capitalist economies, and the havoc its absence creates in others.

As for the loopholes that permit some companies to escape their "fair" tax burden, in some cases that may also be true. Two wrongs don't make a right, however. Some scofflaws who take advantage of the system don't justify enacting a tax system that, intentionally or not, incentivizes people not to prosper. That kind of tax system promotes a stagnant economy, not to mention how it diminishes human achievement. It also, however, can be used to promote the career of a politician who manages to sell it as tax relief.

Finally, to the respondent who implied that I'm a "rich snob": I wish, at least about the "rich" part! But I hope I'm not a tool to be used by slick political salespeople in either party.

Posted by: solidstate | October 17, 2008 8:16 PM | Report abuse

MsRita, you really don't think there's even ONE hard-working plumber in this country who has built up his business over the years, employing multiple American citizens and helping to grow this economy, who makes more than $250,000? Not ONE? Is that how silly your argument has become?

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 8:16 PM | Report abuse

Stupid Republicans...Even Rush Limbaugh said McCain and the Plumber are stupid. Obama’s tax is when you make over $250.000 Dollars (which means no taxes at all). This idiot asks if he makes $20,000 more he could not afford to buy this Business. Earth to Republicans this would make his taxes only $600.00 for making $270,000. Stupid Republicans...Even Rush Limbaugh said McCain and the Plumber are stupid. O
John McCain's people do not prepare him properly. So here is just another dumb statement he has made once again. They should have checked the real facks before making him just look like a idiot.


This is why he is behind in the polls. He's old and has and old ideas about how to run a campaign in 2008.


From the 30's to the maybe around the 50's being a Maverick, Reformer was probably cool WTF! This is 2008 now its OMG! WTF! BFF! IMO!


TIMES HAVE CHANGED

Posted by: MsRita | October 17, 2008 8:10 PM | Report abuse

Don't sit on your polls. Check out what the polls said about Kerry in October 2004 and we know how that went. That aside, the only thing Joe did is ask a question that Obama answered in a way most americans would feel uneasy about. Whether he was a plant or not doesn't matter. The answer given however matters a whole lot and it was freely given.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 8:09 PM | Report abuse

MsRita, the "real" John McCain did not change his mind about that when he became the GOP nominee. It was back in 1990 when he encouraged his home state of Arizona to recognize the holiday despite opposition from then-Governor Evan Mecham. I believe that Barack Obama was still doing drugs in 1990.

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 8:04 PM | Report abuse


this is all that matters;

10/09 - 10/16 Obama +6.9 RCP Average

10/14 - 10/16 Obama +4 Rasmussen Tracking
10/14 - 10/16 Obama +5 Reuters/C-Span/Zogby Tracking
10/14 - 10/16 Obama+10 Hotline/FD Tracking
10/14 - 10/16 Obama +2 Gallup Tracking (Traditional)
10/14 - 10/16 Obama +6 Gallup Tracking (Expanded)
10/12 - 10/16 Obama +4 GW/Battleground Tracking
10/12 - 10/16 Obama +5 IBD/TIPP Tracking
10/10 - 10/13 Obama +9 LA Times/Bloomberg
10/10 - 10/13 Obama+14 CBS News/NY Times
10/10 - 10/12 Obama +4 USA Today/Gallup (Traditional)
10/10 - 10/12 Obama +7 USA Today/Gallup (Expanded)
10/09 - 10/12 Obama +7 Pew Research
10/09 - 10/13 Obama +9 Ipsos/McClatchy

mccain and palin can friggin bite me.

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 17, 2008 7:59 PM | Report abuse

coloradodog
Does not matter what the United States says in the UN when more than 70% of its member nations are run by communist, dictatorships, despots, monarchies and military huntas. If you accept the judgement passed on the US by these countries you are fooling yourself. Amercia is not perfect and not perfectly run and never has been. It is however, the "freest" of the free nations. Let's keep it that way.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 7:57 PM | Report abuse

Who is the real John McCain: Born in the 30's

1954 entered Military School


1958: Starts Flight School.


1965: Marries Carol Sheep.


1967: Shot down.

1968: Solitary confinement.


1968 latter: Offered Release and stayed in solitary confinement.

Stayed in Solitay Confinement until 1973.


1973: Had to underwent mental stability treatment.

Stayed with Carol Sheep-McCain unitl 1978 when he met Cindy the heir to a fortune and Divorced his wife Carol in Feburary and Married Cindy in May.


1983: Opposed Martin Luther King Holiday. Still did not Vote for the Holiday when the NFL said they would not hold a Super Bowl in that State. He changed his mind when he became the nominee and spoke where Martin Luther King was killed and boooooood.

This is the Real John McSane


YES WE CAN! OBAMA O8

Posted by: MsRita | October 17, 2008 7:52 PM | Report abuse

thecannula, Corps, whether subchapter S or C, have a variety of ways to reduce net, and they know how to do it. In addition to spending money on the business, there are many way to spend that money that will benefit the owner almost exclusively.

It's silly to think that a business would deliberately stop trying to grow to avoid making too much money. Only someone who's never run a business would even think of it. Besides, how many S corps net even close to $250,000?

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 7:49 PM | Report abuse

Gee, I'm glad McCain will never mention Roy the English Teacher and former Army officer who volunteered to fight for and die for his country and then was so ashamed of it that he had to leave it when it became fascist Jesuslandia after Cheney and Rove took control and Powell lied to the UN.

Posted by: coloradodog | October 17, 2008 7:40 PM | Report abuse

me like macain him tricky ha ha him fool people good say palling have experience ha ha and she can be president ha ha him could be funny funny president just like george w bush was funny funny president maybe he could give everybody nicknames too like 6pack, first dude , like that Me cant wait for president palling she hottie.

Posted by: DaveMiner | October 17, 2008 7:40 PM | Report abuse

Javalation, are you seriously suggesting it's MCCAIN's fault if Joe (or his boss, who I understand has stated he has a license and Joe is an apprentice) is violating some licensing requirement? Come on, get real.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
What I said is that McCain has a history of not vetting people before using them. He didn't check out Joe's bogus story, or even call to tell him he was about to be made the centerpiece for McCain's economic policies.

The news guys have done some checking and discovered that Joe is a right wing nut who doesn't make enough to pay his taxes, much less buy or start a business. They also found that neither Joe or his boss has a plumbing license, and should be looked at more closely by the licensing board thanks to McCain action.

Don't worry though, I'm sure that Fox will tap him as one of their economic experts. He's got the credentials they look for.

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 7:39 PM | Report abuse

For the simple minded...

Obama's plan only takes 3% of profits over $250k. Is that going to stop you from runnign a small business? If you don't want to pay that, well why don't you hire a new employee or two and increase your expenses so that the business' profits are less? Sounds like a job-making machine to me!

Posted by: jookyg | October 17, 2008 6:55 PM | Report abuse
??????????

jOOkyg- you're SIMPLE MINDED-

Did you ever hear of an S Chapter Corporation? rhetorical question obviously Not

Most Small Businesses are S chapter corporations and
ALL OF THEIR PROFITS ARE TAXED AS PERSONAL INCOME!

Obama can't give 47 million people his Senate quality healthcare, as he promises, raising people who make over 250K only 3% more my simple minded friend....plus fund ACORN and all the other Trillion dollars worth of spending he's proposed!

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 7:39 PM | Report abuse

MarkInAustin wrote, " FozzieBear, please read the story again. McCain did not say "Joe doesn't need a license." Would his question, or OBAMA'S ANSWER, be any more relevant if he had a license? Don't attack the messenger.
Posted by: MarkInAustin

=============================

hey mark in austin.. the way i read the story and by what i am saying on the news, is that mccain is attacking obama (yet again), because he is trying to stifle the plumbers plans, and senile mccain is saying that is unamerican. soooo, f* mccain. i'll read what ever i want into mccains warped words, and if i have to.. i'll say as much bullsh*t as mccain and palin do EVERY FRIGGIN DAY.

mccain is the one that warps and twists around obama's words.. not me.

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 17, 2008 7:32 PM | Report abuse

"Javalation, are you seriously suggesting it's MCCAIN's fault if Joe (or his boss, who I understand has stated he has a license and Joe is an apprentice) is violating some licensing requirement? Come on, get real."

It's not McCain's fault, or Obama's, that they might be violating licensure regulations. But it was McCain that shone the spotlight on him, that has led the media to disclose his lack of license and caused the local licensing authority to open inquiries.

Posted by: thrh | October 17, 2008 7:32 PM | Report abuse

Joe's another white redneck racist - he referred to Obama as Sammy Davis Jr.

Posted by: coloradodog | October 17, 2008 7:31 PM | Report abuse

thrh, have you see the YouTube clip of Obama making fun of Joe (more importantly, any "plumber" making over $250,000 per year)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSHqxosjyLY

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 7:30 PM | Report abuse

Let's see: McCain mentions "Joe the Plumber" twenty-some times during the debate, so the media looks him up. They discover he has unpaid taxes and medical bills, liens on his house, no plumbers license. So now the lienholders and the licensing authority are looking at him more closely.

And this is Obama's fault? McCain is the one who brought him up at the debate.

Posted by: thrh | October 17, 2008 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Joe Skin Head was not properly vetted, just like Palin. If McCain wins, will anyone in his administration be qualified for the job? We don't need another President that flies by the seat of his pants.

Posted by: hamishdad | October 17, 2008 7:27 PM | Report abuse

FozzieBear, please read the story again. McCain did not say "Joe doesn't need a license." Would his question, or OBAMA'S ANSWER, be any more relevant if he had a license? Don't attack the messenger.

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 7:24 PM | Report abuse

Please read related article titled "Joe the plumber gets flushed to Nottingham" at http://www.cliffyworld.com/blogs

Posted by: Cliffyworld | October 17, 2008 7:24 PM | Report abuse

gw1spoon1vote

Very funny! Impeach Bush. Well, I never wanted him anyways. My friend from India never believed me and I regret I could never convince him of that. From his side American politics makes no sense at all. You can see his point, not that I would buy into any other system.

So, when you talk about a solution the problem is always get rid of the problem. I think we need to all think about getting rid of the whole lot of them. I am all for limited terms. Imagine if we had a 4 term (was it 4 for FDR??) for Bush. There is a need for change for sure. We just have no solution here. If we all agreed to drop the party lines we might have a solution. Until we drop those lines and find another candidate we are stuck.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Javalation, are you seriously suggesting it's MCCAIN's fault if Joe (or his boss, who I understand has stated he has a license and Joe is an apprentice) is violating some licensing requirement? Come on, get real.

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 7:22 PM | Report abuse


YESTERDAY, I WORKED AT PAYLESS SHOES, BUT TOMORROW?

I'M GOING TO TAKE JOHN MCCAINS ADVICE AND OPERATE ON SOMEONES PANCREAS.

ACCORDING TO JOHN BOY, I DON'T EVEN NEED A LICENSE!!!

NOW I TOO, CAN MAKE OVER $250,000 A YEAR!!!!

:)

:)

THANKS SENILE MCCAIN!!!!!

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 17, 2008 7:20 PM | Report abuse

thecannula, I don't know any entrepreneurs who are dumb enough to close their businesses so they don't have to pay a 3% tax. Don't know where your 10% unemployment is coming from! Sounds pretty erratic. If businesses don't want to pay it, they lower their expenses by hiring!

Posted by: jookyg | October 17, 2008 6:58 PM | Report abuse

????????????????????

Erratic you say?

1. Unemployment rates are steadily climbing today- raise taxes significantly on business and watch the trend rise like it's on Cialis.
2. Where do you get 3%? Try 10-25%
3. Did I say CLOSE my business- nope we're all gonna cover our nuts- then pare it down so JOE BIDEN doesn't get to decide how to spend my hard earned wages- and by pare it down I do mean LAYOFFS

You know that "3 lettered word" Biden mentioneed in a speech the other day that he said McCain's proposal didn't address:
"J-O-B-S"

4. Paying unemployment insurance is a lot cheaper than another salary and is NOT AFFECTED BY HIRING....only by not firing, genius

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 7:19 PM | Report abuse

McCain is now a footnote.

1. There would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. Macbeth - Shakespeare

Posted by: theodosia1 | October 17, 2008 7:17 PM | Report abuse


SUPPORT ALL UNLICENSED PLUMBERS

IN FACT, WHY STOP THERE?

JOHN MCCAIN WANTS YOU TO SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL UNLICENSED DOCTORS, LAWYERS, BRIDGE ENGINEERS, PHARMACISTS, BUILDING INSPECTORS, ACCOUNTANTS...

LICENSES ARE FOR DUMMIES!!!

Posted by: FozzieBear | October 17, 2008 7:15 PM | Report abuse

jookyg said:

I don't know any entrepreneurs who are dumb enough to close their businesses so they don't have to pay a 3% tax"

Obama makes just as much sense to must of us here. We had a laugh at the fact anyone would think that a $3k incentive per employee is enough "charity" to incite hiring another employee. It just doesn't work that way. Besides do you know how much cheaper it is to hire someone in an Eastern block country these days? Or outsource a job to a shop offshore in a little latin country or , or ,or...

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 7:15 PM | Report abuse

MarkInAustin, Joe doesn't make a quarter of a million a year. He doesn't even make enough to stay current on his bills. Neither he nor his boss are licensed plumbers, so they may get investigated as a result of McCain shining a spotlight on him.

The real issue about Joe is how McCain used him without vetting his story or asking him for permission, something he has demonstrated as a failing in his decision making ability. Just another flaw in his character really.

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 7:14 PM | Report abuse

I am not one to give advice to the Republican Party. But I am so sick of seeing them flopin around trying to find a winning strategy(Palin, Joe, Ayers, Wright)So here is a winning strategy. Why don’t you begin impeachment proceedings against Cheney and Bush? Heck! You’ve already thrown this “lame duck” to the wolves. You just need to finish cooking his a‘zz. This would surely bring the country together and absolutely close the gap among the swing voters.The democrats would reward you handsomely for a little “Poetic Justice.” Not to mention, you can show just how "mavericky" you all can be.

Posted by: gw1spoon1vote | October 17, 2008 7:11 PM | Report abuse

IS this about making 250k a year net profit or 250k gross income? I think it only makes sense if we are talking about 250k net income because that is what is taxed (split and payed at two intervals right?) Now, that is a lot of money but if the plumber that came to my house one time was any indication then it is not hard to see that happening!!

This guy shows up in his pretty new truck. He looks at my house tells me about his new daughter and his new house (clue number one) Then he looks at the job tells me a few details about what caused the leak and then quotes me $1400. I wanted to treat him the way he deserved for such an outlandish quote and for wasting my time. I ended up keeping him there as long as I could acting confused and asking lots of questions. I paid him for the service call and I did get some information I found useful--so I fixed the leak (which lasted 2 years--not bad for my handywork).

Note: when I payed him on my card he whipped ou tthis gadget that was like a cellphone and credit machine in one "Oh, we just got that...." I guess he wanted me to pay for it!

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 7:08 PM | Report abuse

thenotoriousflavio, did you see the YouTube clip of Obama making fun of Joe (more importantly, any "plumber" making over $250,000 per year)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSHqxosjyLY

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 7:02 PM | Report abuse

lasker1895
Last time I checked the middle class (in western civilization) began evolve out of the merchant / artisan class in 1450's after feudalism began to die in Europe.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 7:00 PM | Report abuse

thecannula, I don't know any entrepreneurs who are dumb enough to close their businesses so they don't have to pay a 3% tax. Don't know where your 10% unemployment is coming from! Sounds pretty erratic. If businesses don't want to pay it, they lower their expenses by hiring!

Posted by: jookyg | October 17, 2008 6:58 PM | Report abuse

For the simple minded...

Obama's plan only takes 3% of profits over $250k. Is that going to stop you from runnign a small business? If you don't want to pay that, well why don't you hire a new employee or two and increase your expenses so that the business' profits are less? Sounds like a job-making machine to me!

Posted by: jookyg | October 17, 2008 6:55 PM | Report abuse

Joe the Pseudo-Plumber

Tax specialist are out an J the Pseudo-P tax hit under either plan, from what I understand. In Joe's pipe-dream (no pun intended...okay! pun intended) of $250K/yr; we don't know if that's all profit, what are the write-offs etc.

Making $250K/yr isn't exactly the majority of small busisnesses make anyway.

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 6:48 PM | Report abuse

xantiphi spewed: "...when you become intelliget enought..."

Um...

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 6:44 PM | Report abuse

For the Simple Minded-

Joe The Plumber = = = =

Obama's Taking from People/Small Businesses which earn 250K or more and giving to Big Government to redistribute as he likes-

Hopefully he's ready for the 10% unemployment rate that will result...

I'm cutting my income AND payroll as much as possible if this situation materializes!

I love to garden- Just like Obama-maybe Rezko will buy ME a sideyard too!

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 6:42 PM | Report abuse

OH THIS IS RICH!!!!

McCain injects "Joe" the plumber into the debate, and now it's all Obama's fault. McCain pulls this guy out, shouts "dog pile!" to the world, and blames Obama for the dog pile. Typical. He did this with Pailn too.

How's that for an example of leadership? Sounds pretty erratic to me, and it's a safe bet that intelligent independents aren't going to buy it any more than they've been buying the smears of the past few weeks, as the polls are showing.

Oh I know, I know. It's all the fault of MSM.

Posted by: jookyg | October 17, 2008 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Fred 29

Good point, but Sam the Psuedo-Plumber doesn't have a liscense, doesn't pay his taxes and quite frankly, seems like a habitual liar. If banks, or whoever loan money to Sam, it's no wonder that banks are in the situation they're in.

Besides, plumbers don't make $250K/year. Unless they're REALLY BIG.

Thanks for the intellegent post though.

Now, I agree that anything can happen in America-- electing a black man President.

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 6:42 PM | Report abuse

This is how we got into this mess in the first place (religious right putting zippy the pin head in office) I can not even dignify a response to someone that starts bringing the bible into a discussion about politics SO STOP IT YOU IGNORENT AY HOLE.
Sorry for the spelling error

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 6:40 PM | Report abuse

How hilarious is it that McCain's latest campaign stunt, this "Joe the Plumber" dope, is the son in law of Charles Keating!


HAHAHA!!!


McCain is dumber tha a bag of rocks!

Posted by: DrainYou | October 17, 2008 6:36 PM | Report abuse

RE: This is how we got into this mess in the first place (religious write putting zippy the pin head in office) I can not even dignify a response to someone that starts bringing the bible into a discussion about politics SO STOP IT YOU IGNORENT AY HOLES.
______________________________
That is religious RIGHT not WRITE
when you become intelliget enought to know the difference you can comment DOLT.

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 6:30 PM

Posted by: xantiphi | October 17, 2008 6:35 PM | Report abuse

Hey NOTORIOUSFLAVIO, did you see the room service bill for Barack and Michelle at the Waldorf last night? Caviar and Champagne all the way!

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 6:35 PM | Report abuse

Oh, wow,

thenotoriousflavio

You would be surprised at how little it would take to buy a business. Write a business plan, ask for a loan from an organization (there are lots of them), and then get started. If you have experience or if the former owner will contract his services until you are up to speed you might have a chance. Joe is better than a naysayer; he has a dream.

I think it is pretty sad to try to say someone can't do something. That is the heart of the reason why the message "anything is possible in America" is so important.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 6:32 PM | Report abuse

xantphi spewed this response
"You dolt go buck a fuzzard!!!!!"

Ah yes, the truth comes out. Clearly you have beastiality on YOUR mind.

There's a good CHRISTINE ELITIST.

Just like the rest of your ilk, spewing your hollow religiosity. Your extinction is at hand.

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 6:32 PM | Report abuse

It turns out that Joe is a liar, and probably a righwing plant. He owes the government money, has no plumbing license, and it's a two-man company. He won't have to pay any new taxes under the Obama plan, and definitely would under the McCain plan.

Posted by: shag11
*********

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ANY OF THIS IS TRUE OR FALSE-

The important point you and Obamanation miss is the Answer Obama gave Joe- That it was good to redistribute any future wealth that may only be a figment of his hope and imagination- That kills productivity-

So after I have covered my nut, I'm going home and playing with my kids rather than killing myself so Obama can distribute my hard earned cash to ACORN and Radical Education Programs, like the one he supported with Ayres...I'll probably lay off 1/3rd of my employees- let Obama employ them, like FDR did in the last Depression....

Note I didn't call it the GREAT Depression- that one's coming soon to you and Obama-

Hey, did you see the room service bill for Barack and Michelle at the Waldorf last night? Caviar and Champagne all the way!


Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 6:32 PM | Report abuse

This is how we got into this mess in the first place (religious write putting zippy the pin head in office) I can not even dignify a response to someone that starts bringing the bible into a discussion about politics SO STOP IT YOU IGNORENT AY HOLES.

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 6:30 PM | Report abuse

JOE the Plumber is the perfect symbol for the Republican Party

Joe doesn't pay his taxes.
Joe doesn't have a license.
Joe lives in a dream world (cause he thinks he's going to buy a business that makes $250K when he only makes $40+K/yr)
Joe would do better, tax-wise under the Democratic plan
Joe likes to use the "slippery slope" argument because he's a little wussy who's afraid of everthing
Joe's name isn't even Joe, it's Sam
Joe lied about buying his boss's business
Joe wears the same shirt everyday (well, I made that one up)

Joe, you blow.

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 6:27 PM | Report abuse

It turns out that Joe is a liar, and probably a righwing plant. He owes the government money, has no plumbing license, and it's a two-man company. He won't have to pay any new taxes under the Obama plan, and definitely would under the McCain plan.

Posted by: shag11 | October 17, 2008 6:25 PM | Report abuse

xantiphi spewed: "[some CHRISTIAN ELITIST spew]"

You are a CHRISTIAN ELITIST and you SHALL go to hell for dividing mankind and twisting the words of the Lord Jesus to suit your ends. You wield the Bible as it was a filthy weapon; when it is a BEACON of light to guide all safely to the shores of heaven and the loving embrace of God.

The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.

JESUS loves all, even you.

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio
_______________________________
You dolt go buck a fuzzard!!!!!

Posted by: xantiphi | October 17, 2008 6:25 PM | Report abuse

McBain1

HISTORY WILL JUDGE HIM...

Well, from where I sit history is changing all the time; just ask the liberal authors.
One fellow here at work told three of us of a textbook for a writing class. He said it had 16 pages of Obama in it. When a student's father called the school and the publisher he found out that Obama was more important to include because he was an author

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 6:24 PM | Report abuse

AgnosticEngineer
Unfortunately, the big picture with healthcare, insurance, social security and medicare which have been supposed regulated have been botched by the government. Giving the same government more and more money no matter who you take it from will not be an improvement. Accountability is needed. Term limits for congress amd senate are despeartely needed. reign in their power before you give them more, i. e. stewardship of your health???????

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 6:23 PM | Report abuse

xantiphi spewed: "[some CHRISTIAN ELITIST spew]"

You are a CHRISTIAN ELITIST and you SHALL go to hell for dividing mankind and twisting the words of the Lord Jesus to suit your ends. You wield the Bible as it was a filthy weapon; when it is a BEACON of light to guide all safely to the shores of heaven and the loving embrace of God.

The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.

JESUS loves all, even you.

Posted by: thenotoriousflavio | October 17, 2008 6:21 PM | Report abuse

xantiphi
You won't but read this:

http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=542

The devil can also quote the Bible.

Posted by: edlharris | October 17, 2008 6:18 PM | Report abuse

I like milk Duds

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 6:18 PM | Report abuse

you stupid morons that keep on mentioning socialism like its some kind of dirty word, I hope you idiots realize that we using the socialism system to bail out wall street, so in few words lets use socialism for the fat cats and capitalism for the middle class and the poor and when McCain said if you like Obama health care ,you like Canada and England system.At least their system doesnt refuse people when they come to the emergency room and dye on the way to another hospital

Posted by: capskip | October 17, 2008 6:17 PM | Report abuse

Nobody likes to admit that they have been swindled, taken advantage of, cheeted, had the wool pulled over there eys, been betrayed, screwed told to bend over and take it ECT. Well instead of fuming about all of this and trusting the congress that was in charge from 1994 until 2006.

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 6:16 PM | Report abuse

McCain's campaign has become a farce. History will judge him very harshly.

Posted by: McBain1 | October 17, 2008 6:15 PM | Report abuse

xantiphi

The bible is a great resource after prayer. I doubt it is useful to pick up the bible, pick up the concordance and then start quoting away. The bible warns of Milk maids interpreting the bible. You make a mistake in trying to use the bible in this manner.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 6:11 PM | Report abuse

Um..xantiphi, Christ didn't write the bible.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 6:10 PM | Report abuse

broedd2003

There are people who have more than you. There are people, children even, that can't afford healthcare. I guess we should close the county health hospital here because the poor can't find it on the map or in the phonebook--wait, they can and do--I worked there and can promise you they had no problem getting healthcare. And...we are rated higher than all but one of the healthcare organizations in the state.

As for making more money to pay more taxes?? That is not true; you can make the same amount of money and still have an increase in your taxable income.
****
Maybe someone in Oregon can relay. Now, this is just an aside but you don't pay taxes on purchase in Oregon do you? As I recall when I shopped there I expected to see lower prices but the businesses did not pass on the savings. That was my impression; someone could correct me if they live there. This would seem to be a good arguement that tax breaks to a business doesn't "trickle Down." Don't get me wrong I believe in the concept of Reagonomics(sp??) but I believe tax incentives are best to attract business not to lower prices. I see where whole industries are started (such as the automotive manufacturing in AL) and deals are made--the incentives are the only reason they took up residence in a particular state.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 6:07 PM | Report abuse

Re: The christian and American way does not mean to have in excess while others suffer from their lack.
__________________________
I believe the Savior helped those who could not help theselves.
my scriptures teach me the Christ was against lazy people.
Prov. 19: 15 an idle soul shall suffer hunger.
Prov. 20: 4 sluggard will not plow.
Eccl. 10: 18 through idleness of the hands the house droppeth.
My FAVOIITE ONE: 2 Thes. 3: 10 if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Sure seems to me Christ way is totaly different than Obama's and liberals way.

Posted by: xantiphi | October 17, 2008 6:07 PM | Report abuse

broedd2003 - You're right. You've had eight years of American Individualism run amok. The natural conclusion of a society based on this philosphy isn't pretty, and you're seeing this now.


Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 6:06 PM | Report abuse

What's that odor ? I think I just stepped in something Karl Rove left behind. Our friend, Joe the Plumber, seems to have mysteriously found himself in a direct conversation with BOTH candidates. Hmmm! Let'see; he's not licensed to run a business he says he wants to buy; he doesn't have enough to make the down payment on it; his boss knows nothing about any plans to sell it; he's delinquent in his taxes, and he's even stiffed his hospital bill; he's related to Charles Keating. You remember the Keating Five, the guys McCain used to pal around with; and he's a STAUNCH Republican. Am I missing something ?

Posted by: hlandis2 | October 17, 2008 6:06 PM | Report abuse

Fred, I don't understand what you are talking about. My boss is more liberal than I am and she and her husband's combined income is probably over 250K. The middle class has been ripped off in our country. I have been to Paris and the French laught at American workers for taking this guff from employers. Their health care, pensions and education are covered and they are in no rush to be like us, hence, when there is rumblings of changes, they all get together and strike - and it works. Please note, the EURO has been going up, and the dollar down. Don't be like joe and cut off your nose to spite your face, we middle income people deserve to share in the wealth of our nation. The top 1% have been getting richer and richer, while the middle income people of our nation have been losing wealth.
maddymappo

Have you evry worked hard for your boss? Did you ever think that if you get your boss promoted you are promoting yourself? Or, are you the "downtrodden" put upon by work and queitly steeming that your boss is in the way of your promotion?

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 5:41 PM | Report

Posted by: maddymappo | October 17, 2008 6:05 PM | Report abuse

find it very interesting that most of the pro McCain supporters miss the the very salient point:TO PAY MORE TAX YOU MUST EARN MORE MONEY. broedd2003
**********
Right genius, so after I have covered my nut, I'm going home and playing with my kids rather than killing myself so Obama can distribute my hard earned cash to ACORN and Radical Education Programs, like the one he supported with Ayres...I'll probably lay off 1/3rd of my employees- let Obama employ them, like FDR did in the last Depression....note I didn't call it the GREAT Depression- that one's coming soon to you and Obama- Hey, did you see the room service bill for Barack and Michelle at the Waldorf last night? Caviar and Champagne all the way!

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 6:05 PM | Report abuse

broedd2003

You're so right.

American individualism run amok. The natural conclusion of this way of thinking isn't pretty.

It's decisions made in the interest of the greater good that make for a stable, happy society.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 6:01 PM | Report abuse

Just how conflicted can you be? John McCain uses "Joe the Plumber" on national TV to bolster his standing with the middle class and he now blames Obama for "Joe's" media attention. Not sure McCain watching "Joe's" back is a good idea. As they say, "With friends like that, who needs enemies?"

Posted by: L-D-M | October 17, 2008 5:58 PM | Report abuse


I just hope voters and citizens recognize how desperate and slimy John McCain and his advisors have become in this election. Does John McCain really see as "presidential" the nutty behavior he is engaging in? Who wants a president who first attacks Barack Obama as inexperienced, then puts a shrill, uneducated and dysfunctional clown like Sarah Palin one step from the American presidency? Who wants a president capable of such dissembling and lying as John McCain? Not me. For me, John McCain has taken himself out of the running. If he does what he has to the truth as a campaigner, what will he do to the truth in the White House? The man is a first-class louse.

Posted by: dajerryguy | October 17, 2008 5:57 PM | Report abuse

Watch the brain dead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU
Ignorance has to be bliss for the OBB's

Posted by: xantiphi | October 17, 2008 5:56 PM | Report abuse

I find it very interesting that most of the pro McCain supporters miss the the very salient point:TO PAY MORE TAX YOU MUST EARN MORE MONEY. If you earn more then something is working right for you.There are people paying 30 to 50 million dollars cash for condos. While babies die from a lack of adequate health care due to their parents lack of funds. The christian and American way does not mean to have in excess while others suffer from their lack. We will surely fail if we do not strive to succeed TOGETHER. WE PAY TAX SO WE CAN SUCCEED TOGETHER.

Posted by: broedd2003 | October 17, 2008 5:53 PM | Report abuse

Joe the Plumber is a nitwit.

People working on plumbing in Ohio have to either be licensed or in a training program. He isn't either. He probably couldn't run the business even if he was able to buy it, because the owner of a plumbing business most likely has to be a licensed plumber.

As I understand it, the business isn't even for sale.

According to reports, he doesn't make enough money to buy it anyway, and the business doesn't make a quarter million dollars a year for its current owner.

He also has a tax lien that he might not have known about and the authorities didn't know how to find him. Now he knows and they know.

He would have been better off if he had either kept his mouth shut or John McCain had never mentioned him. John McCain should have checked him out before using him as an example. He probably did the same kind of haphazard job checking out Joe the Plumber as he did checking out Sarah Palin.

Posted by: StanKlein | October 17, 2008 5:52 PM | Report abuse

lhayes79 writes: "Then the media wants to know more about this 'average Joe' who McCain keeps harping about, Joe grants a bunch of interviews and everyone finds out Joe's not quite what he seems."

Actually, it went far beyond that. Some fascist leftwing bloggers printed his home address and even more personal information about him. The MSM gladly published as much as they could. And, instead of urging their supporters to back off, the BHO campaign sat idly by while those supporters - including some linked to the BHO campaign - tried to drive Joe the Plumber out of work.

What those fascist leftwing bloggers and other BHO supporters did was like East Germany Lite.

If anyone doesn't want to spend the next 2+ years under one party authoritarian rule where any criticism of the Leader results in an attempt to destroy your reputation and drive you out of work, we need to defeat BHO and his friends in the MSM. The best way to do that is to go out and ask BHO even tougher questions than Joe the Plumber did. Get BHO's response on video, and upload it to Youtube:

http://24ahead.com/blog/archives/008071.html

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | October 17, 2008 5:52 PM | Report abuse

"You point out a problem with both systems and you bring up good issues. Someone always gets rich. There is an administrative issue where job performance equals denial of healthcare. There are issues with costs increasing and plans getting more expensive. Now, I can't understand why Obama quoted over 10k a year as the average cost for health insurance and McCain said it was 6k or 7K$$ a year. I was surprised the moderator said nothing to question this disparity."


My health care costs, in small business group account and with a minimal plan (nothing extravagant), are $11,800/year for a family of 3.

We also are suffering a heavy burden due to our low maximum prescription coverage ($1k/year). We had to pay $4k out of pocket this year, due to my wife's recently diagnosed medical condition...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 5:50 PM | Report abuse

IT SEEMS OBVIOUS THAT 'JOE THE PLUMBER' WAS A PLANT.

HOW ABOUT THOSE AGITATORS IN THE CROWDS AT MCCAIN-PALIN RALLIES?

FROM WHOSE RANKS DID THEY SPRING?

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/american-gestapo-state-supported-terrorism-targets-u-s-citizens

Posted by: scrivener50 | October 17, 2008 5:50 PM | Report abuse

AgnosticEngineer, whether you recognize it or not your comments are pointing out how flawed our current system is. It need changed. In our area most docs won't accept new patients who don't already have insurance. As a result, those people wait until they have an emergency to rush to the ER.

It's gonna get worse with our failed economy too.

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 5:48 PM | Report abuse

This tax issue boils down to one thing. The rich getting away with murder. Obama can't come out and say it in public, but he knows what's going on. They hide their money off shore and don't pay any tax at all. In 1983 the Government started taking double the money in tax from the Middle Class for Social Security to pay for the Baby Boomers retirement, and it all went to tax cuts for the rich. Check it out. http://www.elderlawanswers.com/resources/article.asp?id=2977§ion=4&state=

Posted by: HemiHead66 | October 17, 2008 5:48 PM | Report abuse

.
ihayes79:
"And somehow it's Obama's fault Joe is getting negative attention?"

It goes around and around. Here is Obama making fun of Joe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSHqxosjyLY

.

Posted by: Billw3 | October 17, 2008 5:47 PM | Report abuse

AgnosticEngineer
Decreasing these costs is likely to make insurance and health care MORE AFFORDABLE and make operating these businesses MORE LUCRATIVE...

You make a good point. Your use of the word LUCRATIVE highlights the basic idealogical difference between us and you.

Most Canadians view our health care system as something that must be protected from the free-market. It's an essential service and right of Canadians.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 5:47 PM | Report abuse

He's blaming Senator Obama for discussing Joe when he said his name 20 times during the debate? And made him the centerpiece of his campaign?

Shockingly, the press decided to look into the poor guy's background. This is the same press that shockingly looked into the family of poor Sarah Palin. I guess they forgot they already used that excuse.

Posted by: amaikovich | October 17, 2008 5:43 PM | Report abuse

quietly steaming

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 5:42 PM | Report abuse

maddymappo

Have you evry worked hard for your boss? Did you ever think that if you get your boss promoted you are promoting yourself? Or, are you the "downtrodden" put upon by work and queitly steeming that your boss is in the way of your promotion?

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 5:41 PM | Report abuse

Wait, am I missing something?!

Joe goes up to Obama during campaign stop and asks Obama some questions about taxes.

Then McCain introduces Joe during a nationally televised debate, mentioning his name 20 times.

Then the media wants to know more about this 'average Joe' who McCain keeps harping about, Joe grants a bunch of interviews and everyone finds out Joe's not quite what he seems.

And somehow it's Obama's fault Joe is getting negative attention? That's some twisted logic.

Posted by: lhayes79 | October 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

"AgnosticEngineer
I have personally seen people w/o insurance admitted via the emergency room of hospital and get a triple bypass operation. They are not denied care on basis of ability to pay because it is illegal to due so and would lead to medical malpractice culpability. Where people are denied access is to follow up care. Emergent and lifesaving care no matter how extensive or expensive is not denied that would be illegal and malpractice. That is why our nations hospitals are always complaining because they bear this burden alone and have to ask for tax dollars or charge higher rates to off set it (the legendary $40.00 cotton ball)"

The reason our expenses are so high is BECAUSE of these emergency room visits. The people who don't get follow up care are MORE LIKELY to return for MORE EMERGENCY TREATMENT and are MORE LIKELY TO DIE at home. Preventative measures are MUCH MORE COST EFFECTIVE. How many people die after being told they have indigestion, rather than being thoroughly checked out? How many people die because their cancer has metastasized before they have had it diagnosed. Decreasing these costs is likely to make insurance and health care MORE AFFORDABLE and make operating these businesses MORE LUCRATIVE...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Our family pays $30 per person per month. We choose our doctor. That amount includes all services.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 5:39 PM | Report abuse

I think Joe the Plumber is a perfect example of the brain washed Rush Limbaugh crowd of middle and lower income people who find themselves sympathizing with the richest people in our nation about taxes. Joe is offended, because Obama's cut in taxes for the middle classes would burden the rich at the expense of the poor. Apparently, Joe, has not been told by Rush, what great tax breaks the richest among us get on capital gains and the investment and shelters their accountants set up for them. But, McCain himself misunderstood Joe, when he explained he aspired to own a business and that he did not own a business himself. McCain then went on to praise Joe for having worked hard enought to earn the American Dream, that villian Obama would rob from him to give entitlements to people who need health care. The implcation being that anyone who earns under 250K a year just doesn't work very hard and doesn't deserve to get a tax break. My own opinion of Joe the Plumber is that he is not terribly bright and that he would cut off his nose to spite his face. Of course McCain and his rich corporate friends are thrilled to find some pig headed little guy who defend their tax breaks. Sad.

Posted by: maddymappo | October 17, 2008 5:38 PM | Report abuse

According to a nationwide survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation, the average health insurance cost for a family was $10,880 in 2005, $4,024 for a single worker.
http://www.costhelper.com/cost/finance/health-insurance.html

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 5:37 PM | Report abuse

All in the name of keeping the money "in the economy" and not "hoarding" it in a savings or investment account.

Seems like the life of a lemming.

Makes no sense to me.

Posted by: MAfromNM
---------------------------
I am not sure if you are talking about personal income or business income. Your personal income if you make more than $250K AGI as I understand it will be taxed at pre Bush rates. Now if you are attempting to say that you would or will have preferred to place that tax break into a savings or investment then I don't see any reason why you can't do both.

As far as business income is concerned depending on who you are what your business is you should still be able to operate fiscally if you are reverted to the pre Bush tax rates because when Bush took office, the country was economically sound. I can not speak intelligently on your situation but do you see yourself hurting because of the tax changes that Obama suggests?

Posted by: justonevoice | October 17, 2008 5:36 PM | Report abuse

AgnosticEngineer

You point out a problem with both systems and you bring up good issues. Someone always gets rich. There is an administrative issue where job performance equals denial of healthcare. There are issues with costs increasing and plans getting more expensive. Now, I can't understand why Obama quoted over 10k a year as the average cost for health insurance and McCain said it was 6k or 7K$$ a year. I was surprised the moderator said nothing to question this disparity.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 5:34 PM | Report abuse

Merriam Webster- Incentive

Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin incentivum, stimulating, setting the tune,
: something that incites or has a tendency to incite to determination or action

see- MOTIVATION REMOVED FROM THE ECONOMY BY OBAMA'S TAX PLAN (resulting in the transformation of a recession into a depression)

also see- James Carter Presidency

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 5:31 PM | Report abuse

"Thank you for the definition of "trickle up".

Now, where's the incentive to work hard and better myself (by saving my profits), if the only way to NOT pay more taxes is spending all of my profits every month and living paycheck to paycheck??

All in the name of keeping the money "in the economy" and not "hoarding" it in a savings or investment account.

Seems like the life of a lemming.

Makes no sense to me."


That's where 50% of Americans are kept, broke and broken. The issue is that when you don't spend the money, essentially recycling it, you cut down on future growth potential.

What company can stay in business that doesn't SELL A PRODUCT OR SERVICE? It's great that they can get more capital from investors, but what does that buy them besides more capacity? It doesn't buy them CUSTOMERS.

An individual can save money without being miserly. MODERATION is the key to EVERYTHING. That is supposed to be the great advantage of DEMOCRACY and CAPITALISM. All extremes will eventually be canceled out.

The problem lies in one ideology having too much say for too long. Ideologies are just that IDEALS. The REAL world requires REAL solutions. Compromise is not defeat, but rather an achievement...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 5:30 PM | Report abuse

AgnosticEngineer
I have personally seen people w/o insurance admitted via the emergency room of hospital and get a triple bypass operation. They are not denied care on basis of ability to pay because it is illegal to due so and would lead to medical malpractice culpability. Where people are denied access is to follow up care. Emergent and lifesaving care no matter how extensive or expensive is not denied that would be illegal and malpractice. That is why our nations hospitals are always complaining because they bear this burden alone and have to ask for tax dollars or charge higher rates to off set it (the legendary $40.00 cotton ball)

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 5:27 PM | Report abuse

If Obama wins,
Next Year, when I get all those requests from charities I currently support (very well) please trust me when I say I will tell them that "I already gave to Obama/Biden"-
Just will be doing my "patriotic duty", like Joe-

Adjusted Biden
Gross Income Charity

1998 $215,432 $195

1999 $210,797 $120

2000 $219,953 $360

2001 $220,712 $360

2002 $227,811 $260

2003 $231,375 $260

2004 $234,271 $380

2005 $321,379 $380

2006 $248,459 $380

2007 $319,853 $995

Total $2,450,042 $3,690

When my employees ask for a raise, please trust me when I say I will tell them "I already gave it to Obama/Biden"

Also, please trust that Obama's "trickle up" economy will push our recession into a depression...

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 5:24 PM | Report abuse

Actually, I lived in the Republican stronghold of Orange County for several of the Reagan years, so I am more than familiar your system. I gave birth at Hoag Hospital in Newport Beach, and 12 hours later was rushed out of there with a $6,000.00 bill. I had a child here and was able to stay in for four days - and presented with no bill.

My parents are elderly, and they never have to wait for tests or procedures. I live in a city that boasts the leading heart institute in North America.

Our survival rates for most diseases, especially those of the elderly, exceed yours. Look it up.

I've experience both, and would take our system any day.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 5:24 PM | Report abuse

Hey all of you bigots out there that cant afford gas or to pay your bills. Look at it this way “once you try Barrack you’ll never go back”

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 5:23 PM | Report abuse

Again, Joe the Tax Evader, and McSlimy are blaming Obama for their own deceptive plunge of character.

Posted by: msreginacomcastnet | October 17, 2008 5:21 PM | Report abuse

"The system there works great as long as you don't get real sick in a hurry. Just getting an MRI is like pulling teeth even when a brain tumor is suspected!"


Try getting any services here when you are uninsured or UNDERinsured (where most of us don't even realize we are). You CAN and WILL be turned down for medical services here IN AMERICA, TOO. All for the sake of profits...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 5:20 PM | Report abuse

justonevoice,

Thank you for the definition of "trickle up".

Now, where's the incentive to work hard and better myself (by saving my profits), if the only way to NOT pay more taxes is spending all of my profits every month and living paycheck to paycheck??

All in the name of keeping the money "in the economy" and not "hoarding" it in a savings or investment account.

Seems like the life of a lemming.

Makes no sense to me.

Posted by: MAfromNM | October 17, 2008 5:20 PM | Report abuse

Another brilliant vetting job by the imcompetent morons at team mclame....First Palin, now the "undecided" joe, fred or what ever his real name is tax evading unlicensed semi plumber....

These are the clowns that want to save us from the bush fiasco??? NO THANKS!

Posted by: pgiaquinto | October 17, 2008 5:20 PM | Report abuse

Fred! Step away from the cow! You know that's not allowed with our community animals.

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 5:19 PM | Report abuse

pragman

You should have stayed Democrat all along then you would never have shared any blame for the disaster.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 5:18 PM | Report abuse

Every politician in the world wants you to think "they feel your pain". Every one of them mentions "someone they met on the trail". The difference here it back-fired to some extent on Obama. Who cares!

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 5:18 PM | Report abuse

freedom:

Everyone buys a cow and milks it themselves. If they have money left over they buy another cow without permission.

Socialism: Everyone has a cow ONE COW and they have to ask permission to milk it.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 5:17 PM | Report abuse

ngeisler Mr. Canada,

We do have a clue. We see the Canadians down here in AZ every single year and they come down here for two things, the weather and the healthcare. Your program doesn't work to our standards. I guess you are just complacent because you are the one who knows "nothing." Don't insult people until you know what you are talking about; you pretend like most outsiders. You have no advice to give us; we don't want your type of system. We choose to be Americans. We need nothing of a socialist system they never work and they never go away.

Posted by: Fred29 | October 17, 2008 5:15 PM | Report abuse

I was saving my money up to become a republican but after the stock market crapped out I guise I will have to stay a democrat—oh well at least I won’t have sh1t for brains

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 5:13 PM | Report abuse

"Learn about it before you condemn it. You people just spout off at the mouth without a clue."


You apparently haven't met the average American. Here, ignorance is a virtue. The less you know, the smarter you are...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 5:13 PM | Report abuse

LaurainLA, it was stupid of McCain to not check Joe's story out wasn't it? You know, no one in his camp even checked with Joe to see what he thought about being shoved into the spotlight. Obviously, McCain didn't care enough to check it out, and you're right it was selfish of him. He is a schmuck.

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 5:12 PM | Report abuse

LaurainLA,

DITTO!!!

Posted by: MAfromNM | October 17, 2008 5:12 PM | Report abuse

ngeisler
Too bad Government Health Care and how it is made available is always directly tied to Government revenue (taxes). Bad fiscal year = decrease in services. I had to provide care for pleanty of CANADIAN SNOWBIRDS WHO WOULD BEG TO DIFFER. Going to one opf our emergency rooms and ending up with the Coronary Bypass operation they were either denied because of age or were waiting several months to get and just had bad timing. The system there works great as long as you don't get real sick in a hurry. Just getting an MRI is like pulling teeth even when a brain tumor is suspected!

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 5:12 PM | Report abuse

Only the plumbers shall vote for Mccain and that too only those whose name is Joe. THe rest will vote for Obama. I am willing to trade Joe's vote for the rest of working class people who actually makes less then 250k who will benefit in Obama's plan. So, Mccain you can have Joe's vote.

Posted by: Mccainsworld | October 17, 2008 5:09 PM | Report abuse

YOU PEOPLE ARE MISSING THE POINT. IT was McCain NOT Obama that brought up “Joe the plumber” so how is it that Obama put the spotlight on this sad sack. Also I don’t think it was Obama that went to his house, but then again what else could you expect somebody like McCain to say- he lives in his own reality completely different from the rest of the intelligent world .Dry up and blow away and don’t forget to take that ignorant Nazi b1tch with you. 

Posted by: pragman | October 17, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

Out of one side of the McCain mouth comes "spending freeze" but out of the other slops govt buying up mortgages. Anyone notice the inconsistency; the republican MSM certainly isn't making an issue of it.

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

justonevoice:

"The trickle up effect states that benefits to the wealthy will be realized due to an increase in sales relative to the amount of benefits that are given to the poor. The trickle up effect argues itself as more effective than the trickle down effect because people who have less tend to buy more. In other words, the poor are more inclined than the wealthy to spend their money. This being so, proponents of the trickle up effect believe that if the lower and lower-middle classes are given benefits, such as tax breaks or subsidies, the increased funds would be spent at a much higher rate than would the upper class, given similar fund increases. Furthermore, the trickle up effect argues, many upper-class individuals do not spend their entire yearly salary to begin with, which is an indication that they will not spend any additional funds. Instead, they will save additional funds, thereby withholding those funds from the economy and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor. The trickle up effect avoids this pitfall by giving more money to those who would be more inclined to spend it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle_up_effect

Posted by: nowanna3 | October 17, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

Merlin50

Clinton was not a socialist. A pervert maybe, but not a socialist.

Maybe a tax & spend liberal, but not a socialist.

The Messiah is a SOCIALIST. As others have pointed out, his ANSWER to Joe/Sam's question SPOKE VOLUMES.

"...spread the wealth..."

That's SOCIALISM.

Posted by: MAfromNM | October 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Report abuse

"If the fiscally conservative Republicans are so charitable "with their own money", why are their so many working poor people?"


They give enormous amounts to their evangelical churches and "faith based initiatives" (aka tax-free corporations). They like to be able to pick who their "charity" helps.

Apparently the sick and poor were only concerns of Jesus the socialist...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Poor Joe! He speaks up and gets castigated (never mind he doesn't need a license if he works under a licensed plumber), his finances are revealed, his divorce made public. I'm glad his son is having fun! Hey – Joe - you don't need to earn $250K to ask an honest question! Isn’t the media great? In less than a week we now know everything there is to know about Joe the Plumber. And after more than two years, we still only know what The One wants us to know about Himself. Just goes to show how dangerous it is to speak up amongst the Obama suppressors. Joe spoke for me and many of WE THE PEOPLE. Atlas will shrug. The American people got used by Fannie & Freddie which was "backed by the government" (wherein Obama was the second highest recipient of kickbacks.) We are the government--OUR MONEY FUNDS the government. And Obama wants more? I don't think so.

Posted by: LaurainLA | October 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Merlin50 - You're right. I don't think most of the posters have a clue what socialism is.

It's just another thing to be afraid of.

I live in Canada. We've managed to enjoy the best of socialism and we keep our free markets in check. I have and enjoy everything any of you do. I don't have to worry about anyone in my family becoming ill. I can speak my mind amidst a population that isn't boiling mad and so incredibly divided.

Learn about it before you condemn it. You people just spout off at the mouth without a clue.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

The Joe the Plumber incident is scaring the left and it should. Obama exposed himself for what he is - a socialist possesing Marxist ideas. The last people I want managing our tax dollars and giving it to who they decide should get it are Obama, Reid and Princess Pelosi. These three are going to decide who and what the definition of "rich" is. After 8 years of Obama's tax and spend policies, what is the definition of rich going to be $175,000, 100,000, 50,000?. And of course, you liberals had to resort to the practice of character assisination of good old Joe. It doesn't matter. Obama showed who he really was with his interview with Joe and the Republicans are going to make sure the voters of this country are going to hear about it.

Posted by: saelij | October 17, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

It wasn't Obama who mentioned "Joe" a bazillion times in the debate, it was McCain - it's McCain's fault the guy is under a microscope. McCain even implied HE talked to "Joe himself. Fool.

I'm glad he is being looked into. Not a licensed plumber, not even trained as one, not certified, lived in ALASKA, a confessed conservative, not Joe but SAMUEL, tax liens on his property, McCain/Palin sign in his yard....can you say PLANT??????

More proof that McCain and his camp followers are morons.

Obama/Biden 08

Posted by: smsbks | October 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Report abuse

It appears that McCain VETTED Joe the Plumber as well as he did Sarah Palin. And now, armed with the truth, McCain still stands by Say it Ain't So, Joe. This is the way it is done in government - cover-up the lies, full support ahead

Posted by: Dogpound | October 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Now let's see.


Trickle down economics.
or
Spread the wealth.


Hard workers get paid styrofoam peanuts.
or
Hard workers make a living wage.


If the fiscally conservative Republicans are so charitable "with their own money", why are their so many working poor people?


Posted by: alexash | October 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Report abuse

IMPORTANT NOTICE; it was good intentions that led organizations like Acorn, freddiemac/fanniemae and demoCRITE leaders like jimmy carter , barney frank, chris dodd, franklin raines and obama to either support the subprime loans or turn a blind eye to the warnings - however, the only problem is - they hurt the poor and the middle class - they were incompetent at helping the poor and incompetent at making good economic decisions BUT they took those big donations anyway (calling them incompetent is actually being a little generous - maybe they were just greedy or maybe they were trying to deliberately sabotage the American financial system - or maybe just plain old incompetent) - at any rate, I honestly believe obama's tax plans and health-care plans are no better - they will hurt the middle class and the poor despite any good intentions - the BOTTOM LINE is ; obama wants working people to be SENDERS of their money to the SPENDERS in washington - he wants the workers to SEND MORE so washington can SPEND MORE

Posted by: jothemedicaldoctor | October 17, 2008 5:01 PM | Report abuse

Dear realtexan,

I am not a wealthy man. My wife is OUT OF WORK and can't get a job ( at least where we live but we're not whining and blaming Bush for it ) someone needs to explain how "trickle up" works to me. If a compnay has more money they expand their business. Most Americans work for SMALL BUSINESS. Small business owners reinvest in their compnaies not pocket the money. Small business is what makes America work and grow and creates the jobs.

Posted by: tbastian
==============
tbastian I am taking you at word and believe that you want a true discussion. First I am sorry about the situation that you are in right now. Second you are exactly the kind of voter that should be interested in Obama as candidate.

Small businesses do create most of jobs, that is why there provisions in his tax policies for small businesses and job creation through healthcare cost subsidiaries and tax reliefs.

Additionally his tax plan as I understand it offers large corporations tax incentives to create jobs in America.

I will wrap up by saying that he is attempting to reverse the tax cuts that were instituted by Bush. The Bush tax cuts did not give us a robust economy and Bush made no attempts to adjust his decision when the economy was tanking but he was available with tax payer monies when those the hedged the bets lost on Wall Street. We have got to do something new and maybe a little radical to get us back to where everyone is prospering.

Good luck to you.

Posted by: justonevoice | October 17, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Joe the tax evader and McSlimy make a good team.

Posted by: msreginacomcastnet | October 17, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Republicans are all closet homosexuals that want the rest of the world to stay as repressed as they are - socially, ideologically, economically and politically.

I am just sorry more of them just don't come out of the closet and join the dems.

But they are just followers brainwashed into believing they are thinking for themselves...

we should all pray for Allah to save them.
that'll really piss em off.

:)

Posted by: sobugged1 | October 17, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

"Never truer - there's nothing to fear, but fear itself."


Another applicable quote:

"Those who would give up their freedom for security deserve NEITHER..."

Accepting violations of the Constitution and international agreements. Condoning torture and extraordinary rendition. Allowing an illegal expansion and abuse of Presidential power.

What has happened to America? Where are the TRUE patriots?

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

If anyone owes Sam the Sham an apology, it's John the Liar. He's the one who put Sam under the microscope, and it was the press who did some vetting that revealed what a fraud Sam/Joe is. Perhaps John should have checked out his story before making him a poster boy. But then, McCain doesn't like to check things out before opening his big mouth; he's too much of a maverick for prudent action.

Posted by: Javalation | October 17, 2008 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Glenn Beck, that twisted paranoid freak, is leaving CNN for Fox News. No longer do real news watchers have to put up with this blathering idiot. Reports are circulating that Beck will be paired up with Sarah Palin on a Fox news hour called "Paranoid and Clueless".

Posted by: ipcjob | October 17, 2008 4:58 PM | Report abuse

McCain and Joe both need plumbers. They are both full of shat!

We know "Joe the Plumber" was nothing but a plant.
Also - pro36 likes it up his ase!

With big black cochs.

Posted by: sobugged1 | October 17, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

Why do you guys keep saying socialism. Were we socialist under Bill Clinton and saw the growth of the tech revolution. I know what socialism is and what Obama is supporting is not socialism. It is the return of a responsible govt (hopefully) that will allow us to have proper roads, growth in research and children who can see a doctor. Not waste money on a pointless war. This is not socialism. Socialism is Bush buying a bank!

Posted by: Merlin50 | October 17, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

solidstate:

You're right, but why not have a sales tax or flat tax. If you by cheaper things or nothing at all you pay less with the sales tax. If you have a flat tax everyone pays the same percentage (and after you get rid of all the other taxes on everything else under the sun..your phone, utilities etc. low income people would definitely pay less while corporations would find all their loop holes gone). The politics of taxation would end!

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 4:57 PM | Report abuse

.
smc91:
"the evidence suggests that Joe wasn't an undecided voter when he approached Obama"

So? Did Joe neglect to clean his fingernails too?

.

Posted by: Billw3 | October 17, 2008 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: nowanna3 | October 17, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

"Obama's "trickle up" plan threatens to make our recession a Depression."


That's funny. Up until last week when he announced his "spending freeze". McCain's plan would have created a LARGER DEFICIT THAN OBAMA's. He still hasn't even remotely explained this "freeze" or how it will effect the millions of government workers, let alone Americans at large.

We sure need to give the rich more money. Look how well it has worked for the last 8 years. Bubble after bubble after bubble. Too bad they don't CONSUME a proportional amount of goods instead of just speculate, the gains could've been permanent...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

Dear tbastian
Tell me why you think Exxon should recieve $3billion dollars from taxpayers when they have made record profits for the last 3 yrs.,$68 billion last year alone.Yet the federal dept. of tranportaion is bankrupt.
Someone has had their eyes closed,and its been our president.

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

gatorsn09 - You pose an interesting question, one the rest of the world also asks.

American people have skewed voting priorities. The party (they think) best represents their "morality" is the one least likely to serve their interests. This party relies on fear and manipulation. And it always works.

The party most likely to serve their interests frightens them, so they continue to vote against themselves.

Never truer - there's nothing to fear, but fear itself.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 4:54 PM | Report abuse

.
Anyone know why Obama makes fun of Joe the plunber?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSHqxosjyLY

.

Posted by: Billw3 | October 17, 2008 4:53 PM | Report abuse

Jwald1,
While I'm aware the USSR crumbled, most of the 18-25 yr old idiots that support the Messiah don't even know it existed. My point is that SOCIALISM is a FAILURE.

I find that most socialist wackos on these posts have an affinity for that god ol' down-home european socialism.

My suggestion is that they all LEAVE the United States of America and go start their own USSA - United Socialist States of Azerbaijan. It's right next door to Iran. The Messiah can meet with his wacko pal to the south with No Preconditions!!

Posted by: MAfromNM | October 17, 2008 4:53 PM | Report abuse

McCain knows all about bailing out rich bankers and screwing over middle class and poor people, he's been doing it for years.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAzDEbVFcg8
.


McCain - Founding Member of the Keating 5:


McCain was one of the "Keating Five," congressmen investigated on ethics charges for strenuously helping convicted racketeer Charles Keating after he gave them large campaign contributions and vacation trips.

Charles Keating was convicted of racketeering and fraud in both state and federal court after his Lincoln Savings & Loan collapsed, costing the taxpayers $3.4 billion. His convictions were overturned on technicalities; for example, the federal conviction was overturned because jurors had heard about his state conviction, and his state charges because Judge Lance Ito (yes, that judge) screwed up jury instructions. Neither court cleared him, and he faces new trials in both courts.)

McCain intervened on behalf of Charles Keating after Keating gave McCain at least $112,00 in contributions. In the mid-1980s, McCain made at least 9 trips on Keating's airplanes, and 3 of those were to Keating's luxurious retreat in the Bahamas. McCain's wife and father-in-law also were the largest investors (at $350,000) in a Keating shopping center; the Phoenix New Times called it a "sweetheart deal."

McCain was not convicted of any crimes, though the Senate concluded that he exercised "poor judgment." (Furthermore, he got off on some charges by a technicality -- that he was still in the House when he took those vacation trips, and so the Senate couldn't prosecute him. The House concluded that THEY couldn't prosecute him because he had moved to the Senate.)


Here's some more mavericky straight-talk, my friends:
.
http://www.realchange.org/mccain.htm
.

Posted by: DrainYou | October 17, 2008 4:53 PM | Report abuse

smc91, so you think "Joe the Plumber" is some elaborate conspiracy? How did they force Obama to make fun of him on that YouTube clip then?

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 4:37 PM
---------------
Haven't seen the YouTube clip. I don't think this is an elaborate conspiracy, but the evidence suggests that Joe wasn't an undecided voter when he approached Obama.

Posted by: smc91 | October 17, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Joe the tax-evading, non-licenced Plumber is reminiscent of the Old Shoe character in the film Primary Colors.

Posted by: used2livethere | October 17, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Merlin50
I do agree government has to have a role in promoting research/education that initially is not profitable for the greater good, but if we don't stop the waste and corruption of our two party system it can never happen. education is politicized, research money is spent as payback and favors to lobbyist, company take government research turn it into profit and never give us a dime!

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Charles Barkley-

"Poor people have been voting for Democrats for the last 50 years...and they are still poor."

***************

Obama's "trickle up" plan threatens to make our recession a Depression.

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 4:50 PM | Report abuse

I am so tired of blame. Both parties are to blame for our problems, we are to blame for complacency and not questioning our leaders.

McCain is good at blaming Obama and the media for the scrutiny that Joe is been subjected to. However, it was he that repeatably used joe during the debate for his benefit to show us that he cares about the middle class. Therefore, stop blaming everyone else and take responsibility for your stupid campaign stunt.

Posted by: qwerqwer1 | October 17, 2008 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Neon_bunny: You say 250K a person. Has Obama ever said that - which would mean 500K for married filing jointly if it is to be fair as you claim 250K per person. Not bloody likely. And, has Obama ever said if that 259K is gross income or AGI???

At the "debate" Obama slipped up and set the bar down a notch to 200K. Did you catch that uncorrected blunder - or was it true speak sliding out from the closet again???? When will it go down some more - maybe in stealth mode by congress when they discover they can't raise the scratch for turning us over to a socialist state condition without a huge increase on everybody.

Regardless of who Joe the Plumber really is, the telling point is all the prattle-babble Obama tried to spew before closing on his ideal reform of "spreading the welath". For me, I'd like to keep the reward from my labors.

Either keep my reward or suck from teh society wealth pool for free when I become a ward of the democrat state and lear real quick do nothing instead of working for nothing! Thereby following the new American dream as apparently espoused by Obama.

Posted by: Sable007 | October 17, 2008 4:49 PM | Report abuse

solidstate:

Our income tax is progressive, based on tax "brackets".

The bottom bracket -=does=- pay taxes. It's at somewhere between 20 and 25% if recollection serves. Those taxes, while collected, are refunded when someone in the bracket files their tax return, less medicare and social security. So the income tax gets returned, but the government's been holding all that cash throughout the year, and making interest on it. So, even if you're below the poverty line and pay no tax on a dollar-per-dollar basis, you still lose the interest to uncle sam.

As you move up in the brackets, a larger portion of your income is withheld -- that's the "progressive" part, and it's based on the concept of burden. $1,000 in taxes is a smaller percentage of income for someone making $100,000 per year (1%) than it is for someone making $10,000 per year (10%). Looking at the same $1,000 at the two income levels, it is ten times more burdensome for someone to pay if they make $10,000 per year.

Consider "burden" to be the relative change in your lifestyle if you had to pay the amount. If you're making 10K/yr, you might forego health care, not buy meat for meals, sell your car or do other things to be able to pay the $1000 tax. If you make 100K/yr, you might drink one less latte every week. There's a basic cost of living that every person has to pay to survive -- simply to live. Food, clothing, shelter, health care and transportation fall into this cost. Once that cost is met through income, the rest is "disposable" -- that is, it can be "thrown away" on anything else without increasing the risk of mortality.

If you make a million dollars a year, there is no substantive change in your quality of life if you pay 40% in taxes vs. 30%. You can still live opulently, still go where you want in the world whenever you want, you can still engage in commerce and markets and investing. It's a harder hit in a dollar sense, but it's no more burdensome from the standpoint of lifestyle.

What's frequently forgotten by those to wail and rend their clothing and cast ashes upon themselves at the prospect of higher taxes for the very rich is that the very rich also have a host of ways to minimize the amount of tax they pay, either through operating a business, making certain kinds of investments, or through charitable giving, just to name a few. Someone making 10K/yr does not have those choices.

Actually, I do not make $100,000 per year just yet, but I aspire to someday. However, I pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes than Warren Buffett does. Both Warren and I agree that this is wrong for a number of reasons. Senator Obama feels the same way.

Posted by: ninjagin | October 17, 2008 4:47 PM | Report abuse

justonevoice
Our Government has wasted more money than we will ever know. All with "good intentions". We should always be prepared to question that. Fighting over what's fair? Fair is not having our money be it pennies or billions wasted. Everyone knows it has been by both political parties and they keep accepting it because they too busying fighting over class distinctions, gay rights, women's rights, religion and abortion rights. Which is just what distracts all of us from the real issue. Where do you really want government's involvement to end and or begin in your life?

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 4:45 PM | Report abuse

lasker1895:

And we can thank FDR for FDIC keeping our money intact during this conservative-led economic meltdown.

Thank the gods for FDR, a truly great American.

Posted by: neon_bunny | October 17, 2008 4:40 PM | Report abuse

@star_key2

I think you might be right the government cannot create middle-class. However I do think companies like Microsoft, Genentech, Google got started based on government sponsorship of research and students. The current Bush administration has markedly underfunded research in favor of tax breaks. McCain proposes a freeze on all spending. This will not support the research needed to move this country forward and create the new Microsoft.

Posted by: Merlin50 | October 17, 2008 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Dear tbastian
Sorry,but you should be blaming Bush for the problems the entire country is having,he has advisors on economic issues in this country,and they must have been asleep.But you cant borrow money to the extent of bankrupting your country and devalueing the U.S.dollar to build another country while completely ignoring your own country and the problems right here at home.The interst alone on what Bush has borrowed is $48 million dollars an hour,so tell me where our tax money is going.
I dont believe McCain with 7+ houses and a wife worth over 100 milion best represents me or the majority of americans.

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 4:40 PM | Report abuse

McCain has got to be the most shameless man on this planet. Just as with his VP pick, he embraced this Joe the plumber guy, jumping in head first with foot in mouth, before his brain has a chance to catch up, making Joe the new centerpiece in a last gasp effort of a dying campaign. Then it turns out on scrutiny, the guy is a tax delinquent, unlicensed as a plumber, and could not have a business unless it was willed to him. At least you had the guts to admit you screwed up to Letterman. Well, you screwed up here too! Have the guts to admit it!

Posted by: tydicea | October 17, 2008 4:39 PM | Report abuse

NO KIDDING - I was on this site as jothemedicaldoctor before there was a joe the plumber story - I make no apologies about supporting mccain but the obama supporters and mccain supporters need to tone down the venom just a little please - midwest has it right - OBAMA SAID WHAT HE SAID TO JOE, BASED ONE JOE'S QUESTION AS IT WAS ASKED - IT DOESN'T MATTER WHY JOE ASKED IT - WHAT MATTERS IS OBAMA'S RESPONSE - NOW, YOU EITHER AGREE WITH THAT OR YOU DON'T - I HAPPEN TO NOT AGREE WITH OBAMA ON HIS TAX PLAN OR HIS HEATH CARE PLAN BUT I CAN RESPECT SOMEONE WHO HAS AN HONEST DIFFERENCE OF OPINION - I CANNOT RESPECT SOMEONE WHO TRIES TO CHANGE WHAT OBAMA SAID - so let's stick to the issues - do you agree with obama's plan or mccain's - do you trust obama or mccain - HAS ANYONE SEEN "SWING VOTE" - I RECOMMEND EVERYONE SEE IT AND I AM A CONSERVATIVE - IT IS CREEPY HOW MUCH THIS JOE THE PLUMBER THING IS LIKE THAT MOVIE - THE MOVIE WAS PRETTY BALANCED (NOT QUITE 50/50 BUT CLOSE) AND IT WAS FUNNY AND IT WAS PRO-AMERICA - SO TRY TO BASE YOUR OPINIONS ON THE ISSUES AND RESPECT THOSE WHO ARE HONESTLY TRYING TO DO THE SAME (p.s. the movie is out on dvd november first) sure I'm rooting for john and sarah but even more so I am rooting for AMERICA

Posted by: jothemedicaldoctor | October 17, 2008 4:38 PM | Report abuse

Why are you blocking my posts?

Posted by: tydicea | October 17, 2008 4:37 PM | Report abuse

smc91, so you think "Joe the Plumber" is some elaborate conspiracy? How did they force Obama to make fun of him on that YouTube clip then?

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 4:37 PM | Report abuse

bh4099:

The poor, naive, Republican rubes don't stand a chance against their party's machinations.

That's why when the conservative going gets tough, the conservative psycho-drama begins.

Posted by: neon_bunny | October 17, 2008 4:36 PM | Report abuse

star_key2:
The last time I looked, it was the New Deal that created the middle class.

Posted by: lasker1895 | October 17, 2008 4:36 PM | Report abuse

The party of Bush / McCain maintained the Concentration Camps at Guantanamo Bay, sent our country to war based on lies, erased many personal freedoms in the name of National security and put our country 2 Trillion dollars in debit as they gave the rich tax cuts. Bush will leave office with our country still involved in 2 wars, we're so deep in debit Bush had to Socialize Wall Street & our major banks, he's also destroyed world opinion against us & our country with his failed policies & his bullying personality. WHY would anyone consider voting for ANY Republican ?

Posted by: gatorsn09 | October 17, 2008 4:36 PM | Report abuse

Are you guys talking about Sam the Handyman?

I like how McCain blames Obama for all the attention he is getting when it is McCain that put him in the spotlight.

If it wasn't for the debate Sam would have had his brief fame on CNN and other news shows, but McCain decided to make him a poster boy for his distortions of Obama's tax plan.

One thing I never hear mentioned is how Obama's tax plan would give small businesses a 50% tax break on healtcare benefits for employees.

"Offering a Small Business Healthcare Tax Credit: To help small businesses compete in the global
economy while still providing quality health insurance, Barack Obama will offer a new refundable 50
percent health tax credit on employee premiums paid by employers."

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

Posted by: nowanna3 | October 17, 2008 4:36 PM | Report abuse

To you conspiracy retards that think Joe the Plumber was "planted" by Mccain:

I'll bet you're right!! The McCain campaign very likely knew what route Obama was taking that day.

Just one thing I can't figure out:
How did Joe MOVE HIS HOUSE TO THAT STREET ON SUCH SHORT NOTICE????

Was the media that was camped outside his house notice the big housemoving truck leaving the area just before Obama came around the corner????

What a bunch of retards you socialsts are.

Posted by: MAfromNM | October 17, 2008 4:35 PM | Report abuse

So it's Obama's fault that the guy is a liar? Give us all a flippin' break!

Posted by: lasker1895 | October 17, 2008 4:34 PM | Report abuse

BENBG01
You seem like a resonable person, but do you really think it is government that creates a middle class. They tried that in Russia and they ended up with a Communist Elite and then everyone else. The middle class will be borne out of middle income jobs and trades which I agree have shrunken, but this is a result of foreign competition not Government policy (unless you consdier education). We have to be wary of punishing the capitalist or over protecting domestic production for fear of diminishing both. New industries created in the 90's (i.e Microsoft and others) drove the economy then and it will Government's only job to maintain a good environment for business to thrive (not tax, restrict, over-regulate, mandate and stifle)

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 4:34 PM | Report abuse

The Tale of Joe the Senator and Joe the Plumber

McCain won the Debate by Introducing the Desires of Hard Working Americans to get Ahead Back into the Race in the Form of Joe the Plumber-

Joe the Plumber now has a voice, speaking for the middle and upper middle class, trying to get ahead. The REAL Rich has been represented by Penny Pritzker's Candidate. Joe said, sure today it's people making over 250K that will get killed by Obama's taxes, but soon, as Obama's agenda gets more expensive, it will be people making 150K, and so on...it's like that old saying about not speaking out when someone comes for your neighbors....soon there will no one left to speak out when someone comes for you.

Biden made over 245K(!just under the cut off!) a year over the past 10 years and gave less than $370/yr to charity!; But he feels it's "Patriotic" to ask Everyone ELSE to redistribute THEIR earnings.


You know Joe the Senator, LOTS of us wouldn't mind pulling down 245K a year, not paying higher taxes, not giving much to charity....JUST LIKE YOU!

Adjusted Biden
Gross Income Charity

1998 $215,432 $195

1999 $210,797 $120

2000 $219,953 $360

2001 $220,712 $360

2002 $227,811 $260

2003 $231,375 $260

2004 $234,271 $380

2005 $321,379 $380

2006 $248,459 $380

2007 $319,853 $995

Total $2,450,042 $3,690

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 4:34 PM | Report abuse

.
Obama making fun of Joe the plumber. What an elitr snob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSHqxosjyLY

.

Posted by: Billw3 | October 17, 2008 4:33 PM | Report abuse

If this was some elaborate GOP "set up" how did they get Obama to walk down his street but couldn't find someone who had paid up all his taxes WITH a valid plumber's license?

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 4:27 PM
------------------
No one ever accused the GOP of being intelligent. It's just more evidence of McCain making a decision before thinking through the consequences. I thought he learned his lesson with Palin, but this seems to be the way he operates.

Posted by: smc91 | October 17, 2008 4:33 PM | Report abuse

"I am not a wealthy man. My wife is OUT OF WORK and can't get a job ( at least where we live but we're not whining and blaming Bush for it ) someone needs to explain how "trickle up" works to me. If a compnay has more money they expand their business. Most Americans work for SMALL BUSINESS. Small business owners reinvest in their compnaies not pocket the money. Small business is what makes America work and grow and creates the jobs."


DEMAND drives growth, not supply. You can build a giant corporation with investment money, but it will just collapse if you cannot PRODUCE A PRODUCT THAT PEOPLE WILL BUY FOR YOUR PROFIT.

Otherwise, you are referring to a "Ponzi scheme", where it seems you are making money so long as more people buy into your scheme than cash out. Eventually, these schemes always fail, spectacularly...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 4:33 PM | Report abuse

John McCain's lack of any serious analysis of the current situation is insulting. I'm a small business owner who pays my taxes (federal, state, and gross receipts), and I don't appreciate that the only answer that McCain can give me is a tax-dodging fake plumber! In fact, by making $40,000/year, this fake plumber makes more money than I do! Yet, you don't hear me complaining. Actually, I'm surprised that Cindy McCain hasn't gone after Joe the fake plumber. This is a guy that doesn't want to pay taxes, yet our taxes support her son, Gov. Palin's son, Joe Biden's son and all the other soldiers in Iraq.

Posted by: sgarney | October 17, 2008 4:32 PM | Report abuse

One must assume that the characters Mr. McCain is bringing into his campaign are reflective of who he perceives you to be. Does he see the typical American as having everything in common with "Joe Six Pack", "Joe the Plummer" and, of course, hockey moms from hell?

Is that who John McCain thinks you are? Beer drinking, butt-crack exposing, rink rats? What example of mediocraty personified will he trot out next?

So condescending. So insulting. And I can guarantee he wouldn't break bread with any of the stereotypes he's tricking you with.

Posted by: ngeisler | October 17, 2008 4:32 PM | Report abuse

LonewackoDotCom wrote "If anyone doesn't want to spend the next 2+ years under one party authoritarian rule where any criticism of the Leader results in an attempt to destroy your reputation..."

I love the psycho-transference of the right wing! You might ask Valerie Plame how she feels about destroyed reputations (or careers). Sadly, we've been living under one-party rule for 7+ years and most people haven't even noticed their rights being whittled away! So don't fret wacko.

Posted by: bh4099 | October 17, 2008 4:31 PM | Report abuse

Come on Mccain III, give it up. Joe's a loser, very much like most of your campaign staff.

Posted by: rsampson02 | October 17, 2008 4:31 PM | Report abuse

MafromNm, in case you have not heard, Russia is no longer communist.

Posted by: jwald1 | October 17, 2008 4:31 PM | Report abuse

I would agree that Obama has every right to address the issue. However, the media ( who could be called in the tank for Obama ) is trying to destroy this man. Leave him alone. I think it is the only decent thing to do.

Posted by: tbastian | October 17, 2008 4:31 PM | Report abuse

star_key2:

I don't know where you got those numbers but I do not believe they are accurate. Try
looking at the tables from the Congressional Budget Office:

http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8885/EffectiveTaxRates.shtml

Posted by: Godhimself1 | October 17, 2008 4:31 PM | Report abuse

"FACT Obama/Biden's (sic) plan is to raise taxes on individuals making 125,000 not 250,000"

WRONG. It's $250,000 per person. Nice try, though.

Posted by: neon_bunny | October 17, 2008 4:31 PM | Report abuse

You know whats funny? Most of the people on here do not make more than $250K per year, I am sure. But like Joe the plumber they get on the blogs and talk about the what if I did.

Admit it, the tax breaks that McCain is touting have been in place for the last several years. Look at what that has gotten us.

Has there been more job creation? Have we had trickle down economics that has benefited the middle class? Have we seen the jobs that were exported brought back to United States? What exactly did the tax breaks to the wealthy do for Joe the Plumber? NOTHING!

So when you want to be rich Republicans get on the blogosphere and tout your candidate as the one that has the best economic plan...you are lying just as badly as McCain and Palin.

So STOP!

Posted by: justonevoice | October 17, 2008 4:30 PM | Report abuse

AgnosticEngineer, you and Mr. Buffet are more than free to send any extra money you want to "U.S. Treasury."

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 4:30 PM | Report abuse

I'm starting to feel like I'm in the twilight zone everytime John Mccain speaks. It actaully makes my stomach turn to listen to him. The media is camped out in front of Joe's house, not Barack Obama and it is ridiculous to suggest that Obama sent them there.
McCain brought Joe into this, not Obama. McCain is trying to exploit Joe the Plumber and Joe is sadly unaware of it. I feel like McCain is trying to exploit the American people and that makes me sick.
Obama raising questions about the argument of Joe is fair. Why? To expose McCain of his lies to the American people. He is a liar and acts like a child.

Posted by: kikgirl | October 17, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

so now I guess being a christian and a member of the GOP is hateful? Give me a break! Democrats and GOP aloke can be good god fearing people and not hate mongers. It is funny for all the nasty things said about the GOP on this blog and others it is only the democrats that are spewing the hate here.

There can be a dialouge without the attacks on people due to ideological differences on taxation and the economy.

Posted by: tbastian | October 17, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

.
It’s disappointing how the media chews up anyone they perceive as not for Obama. Joe the plumber has the Obama hounds on his back like a duck on a junebug. Too Bad, but then that's the Obama supporter mentality.
.

Posted by: Billw3 | October 17, 2008 4:27 PM | Report abuse

"You know it's so funny to hear McCain sticking up for poor Joe the Plumber, who really isn't a licensed plumber and would actually stand to save taxes on Obama's plan.."

And yet Joe-the-unlicensed-plumber, being a registered Republican, will still probably for McCain.

You just can't help some people.

Posted by: neon_bunny | October 17, 2008 4:27 PM | Report abuse

If this was some elaborate GOP "set up" how did they get Obama to walk down his street but couldn't find someone who had paid up all his taxes WITH a valid plumber's license?

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 4:27 PM | Report abuse

"FACT obamiden's plan is to raise taxes on individuals making 125,000 not 250,000 (look at the detailes - it is family income - not individual income - in other words a lie)"

Few people make this much, let alone a COUPLE. If BOTH married filers make more than $200k a piece (filing separately) or $250k combined (filing jointly), yes they will see an average increase of $12/year if they make b/n $200k-$500k individually or $250k-$600k combined. I think they'll survive the EXTREMELY MODEST increase.

Even WARREN BUFFET, the most wealthy businessman/investor in our country SUPPORTS OBAMA AND HIS TAX PLAN...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 4:26 PM | Report abuse

The Obama campaign has said nothing about Mr. Wurzelbacher, much less attacked him.

However, Senator McCain has failed to defend Mr. Wurzelbacher on his call to do away with the Social Security system. What about it, John? You wanna get rid of SS, too? And how about Medicare. Do you also agree with Mr. Wurzelbacher that we should build a fence along our Southern border and shoot any Mexican that tries to cross it? Perhaps Senator McCain would care to comment? After all, when others are attacking "Joe", isn't it McCain's resposibility to defend the man he brought to instant fame?

Posted by: Stonecreek | October 17, 2008 4:25 PM | Report abuse

McCain is 20 points behind Obama in the polls & the Republican Hate Machines go on full alert. Republicans call themselves Christians & spew hate & lies. It's sad they never learned any manners. Bush has destroyed the Republican Party, someone needs to drive a silver stake through their heart ( Republican party ) to make sure they're really dead.

Posted by: gatorsn09 | October 17, 2008 4:24 PM | Report abuse

this joe plumber is a set up by the McCain campaign, this what so called plumber his father is a big contributor to the GOP, more truth will come out, this old ,asinine ,erratic old man will do anything sleaze to win this election

Posted by: capskip | October 17, 2008 4:23 PM | Report abuse

"If we keep talking about the economy we are going to lose..." We need to win the election by fooling the people into thinking that this is important!

Posted by: Rob17 | October 17, 2008 4:23 PM | Report abuse

VMR1:
You're the moron - have you heard of tax shelters, banks in other countries? You must be living under a rock - it's not only easy to import good from other countries, it's also easy to export wealth.
Investors like stability - that's what made the US attractive. Stability sure has taken a hit here (and other places), but it's a much more even global playing field. You want to attract wealth, not scare it away.

People need jobs not handouts. Jobs are created by investments, not progressive tax. Progressive tax is nothing more than re-distribution of wealth - we already have that - we can't afford more of it.

Posted by: minghia | October 17, 2008 4:23 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: BENBG01 | October 17, 2008 4:05 PM

It is unfair to the American people to have a shrinking middle class and that is what happened during the Bush administration. If all of the middle class disappeared then a fair amount of the taxes could be 100%. The health of the economy is measured in terms of the size of the middle class. That is one of the important differences between developed and emerging economy. The idea is that the economy has not done well in creating jobs or maintaining the wealth of the middle class and that has to be corrected. Obama does not want to change the tax structure he just wants to correct the tax policy to reflect what Bush would have done if he did not have the mistaken notion that taxes should have been principally reduced on the wealthy.

Neither you and Bush nor I and Obama have an exact notion of where that fair tax will be. We simply have to see what works in reestablishing the wealth of the middle class. Unfortunately because of the failures of the Bush administration that will be adverse to the group you advocate for. But after recovery you will again be advantaged.

Posted by: Gator-ron | October 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Dear realtexan,

I am not a wealthy man. My wife is OUT OF WORK and can't get a job ( at least where we live but we're not whining and blaming Bush for it ) someone needs to explain how "trickle up" works to me. If a compnay has more money they expand their business. Most Americans work for SMALL BUSINESS. Small business owners reinvest in their compnaies not pocket the money. Small business is what makes America work and grow and creates the jobs.

Posted by: tbastian | October 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Obama sneers about a plumber like he is a low life crap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSHqxosjyLY

Posted by: xantiphi | October 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Whatever_Dude:

That is an EXCELLENT idea. Deport all the commie liberal socialists AND their Obama-siah to the Holy Land: Mother Russia

When they get there, Puten will be put-en to 'em where the sun don;'t shine like all good little commie wackos like it!

BIG GOVERNMENT telling them everything they should do and what they CAN'T HAVE because the "good of the people" should come first.

Posted by: MAfromNM | October 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Report abuse

So, let's get it straight...

He's not really a plumber.

He already owes on his taxes.

He will pay less under Obama than McCain.

And his names' Sam, not Joe.

Well, that's the best McCain had, makes sense that he'd go with it.

Posted by: anon342 | October 17, 2008 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Excuse me- how exactly is it Barack Obama's fault that McCrazy dragged this idiot "Joe the Plumber" into the public eye??? Obama was walking through "Joe's" neighborhood, "Joe" came out and asked him a question and Obama spent several minutes respectfully answering the question, then never mentioned him publicly again until after John McCain brought him up at the debate. In between his talk with Obama and the debate "Joe" was enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame appearing on the Drudge report and right-wing talk radio.

Plus, the Obama campaign isn't investigating this guy, the MEDIA is doing that, and that is absolutely no surprise given that McCain mentioned him about twenty times in the debate. What did McCain think was going to happen?

But the most important thing that came out in the wash is not that the guy isn't really a plumber, nor is it the fact that his "plan" to buy his boss' plumbing business is actually nothing more than a pipe dream, nor is it that he owed back taxes. The deliciously sweet irony of all of this is that this moron (who is clearly stumping for John McCain on national television in spite of his "undecided" claims) would receive a far larger tax cut from Barack Obama than he would from McCain. Typical Republican- vote against your own economic self-interest NOW because you operate under the delusion that SOMEDAY you'll be super rich and when that day comes you don't want to have to pay 3% more on your income taxes.

Anyone who earns less than about $1,000,000 a year and still counts himself as a Republican is an idiot. The Republicans don't care about you and they likely never will because there is virtually NO CHANCE that you will ever become a part of the super wealthy elite. All Repugs will do is lie to you and manipulate your stupidity the way they have done to "Joe the Plumber." And BTW- so you don't have to take my word for it, here is a link an article from that bastion of the liberal media, the Wall Street Journal, confirming everything I've just said. Read it and weep Republican patsies.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122418790649541967.html

Here's one from Newsweek:

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/10/17/724237.aspx

Posted by: paige3 | October 17, 2008 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Just wondering if it was even fair for McCain to use a person's story without that person's permission? Who found out his name? Who looked up his address? If I were Joe I'd think about suing McCain for using my name and story without a whit of permission and causing "mental anguish" as he is now racked over the coals by so many. Joe asked a reasonable question, one that merited an answer. Barack gave it, whether it satisfied Joe or not, it was honest. Joe was then free to make his decision...and now he bears the weight of the world on his shoulders and McCain blames Obama? Get real, John. You're losing touch wtih reality altogether...If you hadn't mentioned him by name, without his permission, none of this would have happened.

Posted by: RDvanreken | October 17, 2008 4:10 PM
------------------------
Which leads me to believe that Joe the Plumber and the McCain campaign set this whole thing up from the beginning. No candidate would risk using someone's name without permission.

Posted by: smc91 | October 17, 2008 4:21 PM | Report abuse

For Every Hard Working American Supporting Both John McCain And College Age Children who are Supporting Barack Obama-

Let them know how much your tax increase is going to hurt THEM-

Here's some advice from the Urban Dictionary-

"First Cut them off then Flip them off",

The phrase is used as advice for impatient drivers (usually impatient, incompetant yuppy sorts in overly expensive cars) who hesitate when a much slower car approaches the intersection (usually driven by an old fart with a handicapped sign on the mirror). If the yuppy waits, he will inevitably be trapped behind the slow old fart for a long time. Thus the advice, "first cut them off, then flip them off" intended to not only offend the other driver by cutting them off, but also to infuriate them by giving them "the bird" immediately thereafter.

Let Our Kids Know Actions Have Consequences!


Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 4:21 PM | Report abuse

@jwald1

I don't think Joe is a close relative of that Keating associated Wurzelbacher. Listening to his relative on the radio today I don't think Joe has any money or a close relative with any money. There are alot of Wurzelbachers in Ohio.

Posted by: Merlin50 | October 17, 2008 4:20 PM | Report abuse

VMR1
If you think that anyone having more than 1/3 income taxed or even at risk of being taken by the government then let's just repectfully disagree (without name calling) on the role of government and how much of anyone's income or productivity should be sacrificed for it. The government orginally ran on tariffs. I prefer an adjustable rate sales tax or flat tax. Take care.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 4:18 PM | Report abuse

No, joethefarmer, he's going to blame Obama and ACORN.

Posted by: MarkInAustin | October 17, 2008 4:16 PM | Report abuse

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Posted by: jwald1 | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

Dear tbastian
Trickle down doesnt work,you may think it does because you maybe close to the top,but if you ask all the people that lost their jobs,youll see their companies recived those tax breaks and they still lost their jobs.So youll find it was the employees that were trickle down,not the money!

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

Evidence continues to mount that Barack Obama had substantial help from Bill Ayers in the creation of his 1995 book, Dreams From My Father.
The discovery of new matching nautical metaphors from both Ayers and Obama that almost assuredly came from the same source: Ayers, a former merchant seaman.

The discovery of a Bill Ayers' essay on memoir writing, whose postmodern themes and phrases are echoed throughout Dreams.
A newly discovered book chapter from 1990 that shows clearly and painfully the limits of Obama's prose style the year he received a contract to write Dreams.
The revelation by radical Islamicist Rashid Khalidi that Ayers made his "dining room table" available for neighborhood writers who needed help.
A refined timeline that shows Ayers had the means, the motive and the time to help Obama when he needed it most.

Posted by: xantiphi | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

Who Pays Income Taxes? See Who Pays What

For Tax Year 2006

Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Top 1%
$388,806
39.89% of all income taxes

Top 5%
$153,542
60.14% of all income taxes

Top 10%
$108,904
70.79% of all income taxes

Top 25%
$64,702
86.27% of all income taxes

Top 50%
$31,987
97.01% of all income taxes

Bottom 50%
2.99% of all income taxes

Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service
**1/2 of our people pay less than 3% of the income tax!!! So how do 95% percent of Americans get a tax cut when nearly 50% don't pay anything any way? The numbers are what they are.


Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 3:57 PM

==============================

I think your looking at it wrong. They hardly make anything so of coarse their total for the whole population isn't going to amount to much. If you look at the tax they pay for the little bit of money they make their getting killed. When I worked for Coke putting in 70+ hours a week they took almost half my dam check in taxes.

Posted by: HemiHead66 | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

Conservative are always making it sound like increased taxes on those doing well will take ALL their money away. Completely destroy their initiative to make more!

C'mon, get real: If you make $300K one year and have a way to make $400K the next, you're not going to do it because SOME of the additional income is going to be taxed by the big, bad boogeyman government?? Balony! You still come out will more money when you make more, even if some of it is "stolen" from you - to repair your deteriorating roads and bridges, fund your armies, etc, etc, and yes, put some into education and other aid for people that can make this a better country.

It really is just a matter of fairness versus greed. If you can't see this I believe it's because you don't want to see it.

Posted by: Leo3 | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

If McCain ever was a man of Honor , he has lost it.

Posted by: cakemanjb | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

McCain blames everything on Barack. I guess he will blame Barack when McCain loses the election too!

All senor McCain is doing is giving the opportunity for Obama to clarify any doubts people have on him.

Also folks, did anyone get why he said Sarah Palin's husband is a tough guy? What is that got to do with running for office? I guess if you have to cut wood it comes in handy. Could it be that finally the embalming fluids that is running inside McCains veins are having an effect in his his brains.

Posted by: joethefarmer | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

The crazy commentary is picking up here.

Must be a shift change in the basement of The Karl Rove building. After a rousing version of "Winning Ugly" by The Rolling Stones....the Young Creeps arm of the party are back banging away at their keyboards!

Posted by: TruthWalksOnWater | October 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

tbastian said:
"I only wish my boss made $5 Million a year. If he did I'd be thrilled."

What a slavish mentality!. And you call yourself a free man? You agree that you and your family's continuing decent existence should depend on some businessman? The Soviets couldn't possibly brainwash you more than you are already. It's amazing!

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 4:14 PM | Report abuse

"I think this is my favorite statistic rich snobs always throw out. The stat they leave out is that these 10% make a little over 50% of the country's combined wealth."


My favorite is the "bar analogy", which goes something like this:

Imagine if some poor rich person had to pay $100 for the same beer that you pay $1 for. Is that fair???

When in actuality even paying %40 in taxes would only equate to paying $1.60 for that beer (compared to the 25% most of us pay). In reality, the rich pay FAR MORE than this for their cocktails (BY CHOICE), so they don't have to associate with us little people...

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 4:13 PM | Report abuse

On Oct. 28, 1967 the New York Times published an article under the title “Adm. McCain’s Son, Forrestal Survivor, Is Missing in Raid”. This was one day after John McCain’s aircraft was brought down over Hanoi, and he was captured. This article is available on the net http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/flash/politics/20080203_MCCAIN_TIMELINE/content/pdf/19671028.pdf
It makes an interesting reading, perhaps you should read it, too.
The article begins with telling the story of the fire aboard the aircraft carrier Forrestal, July 29, 1967, and the first two sentences are: “It was almost three months ago that the young, prematurely gray Navy pilot was sitting in a villa in Saigon, sipping a Scotch with friends and recalling the holocaust that he had managed to live through. He was John Sydney McCain 3d, a lieutenant commander.”
He is then quoted “now I’ve seen what the bombs and the napalm did to the people on our ship, I’m not so sure I want to drop any more of this stuff on North Vietnam.” The article then continues: “But after a few weeks... Commander McCain headed back to the Gulf of Tonkin to fly his Skyhawk from the deck of the Oriskany on new raids.” Later the article says: “Yesterday, two months after his 30th birthday, Commander McCain was hurled from the steam catapults of the Oriskany... The target was the main power plant in Hanoi”.
The article then quotes a North Vietnamese broadcast, which not only mentions McCain, but also gives details of his capture, mentioning that he was shot in the leg while still in his aircraft and was treated by a nurse for his wounds before being brought into a detention camp. At the end the article mentions that McCain was “described by the Hanoi radio as the son of the commander of United States Naval Forces in Europe.”

John McCain himself tells us in his autobiography Faith of My Fathers (1999), and his story is being repeated over and over again:

- His hair got gray during his detainment because of the torture, he was suffering.
The newspaper article describes him as being “prematurely gray”, several months before his capture.

- It took the Vietnamese several days to find out who his father was.
The article mentions a radio transmission from Hanoi and from the day of McCains’s capture (as the article was published the next day) giving the family background of McCain.

- After his capture he was questioned about where he came from and what the target of his mission was, and he was tortured, after refusing to provide this information.
The article mentions the Oriskany as McCain’s ship and the power plant as his target.

Of cause there are no independent sources to provide more information about McCains detainment; neither he himself nor his prison guard Nguyen Tien Tran, who denies any allegations of torture http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/14/uselections2008-johnmccain , are unbiased witnesses. But do you think John McCain is completely truthful?


Posted by: egojen | October 17, 2008 4:13 PM | Report abuse

The purpose of our Government isn't to be a compulsary charitable orginization - i.e. give as much we say and will spend our way or else! $300.00 hammers are just wrong. Giving more doesn't fix anything. accountability is what matters. Term limits for the congress and senate too!

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 4:11 PM | Report abuse

I am glad Joe the plumber dreams of owning his own business. It was always my dream and one I realized two and half decades ago. I have not reported my income on W-2 in 25 years and have sold a successful CPA firm. I am operating my second CPA firm and am making a six figure income after only six years in this business. I know I am better off under Obama's tax plan as are ninety percent of my clients. The vast majority (90%) of my tax clients will be better off under Obama’s plan. Of my small business clients 95% of them will better off. Joe the Plumber seems like a dreamer to me. He seems like a hard working guy who does not understand what it takes to run a business. I get 25 or so people like Joe in my office every year. My first piece of advice would be to get your plumbers license and worry about the taxes later. It seems odd that he would talk to Obama about buying this business from his boss before he talked to his boss. So Joe my advice get your license and talk to your boss.

Posted by: bradcpa | October 17, 2008 4:11 PM | Report abuse

Yes its realistic that McCain could know exactly where Obama would be,right down to the street.They have to file in advance to the Secret Service when and where they will be for security reasons.So Yes!

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 4:11 PM | Report abuse

star_key2 said:

"So how do 95% percent of Americans get a tax cut when nearly 50% don't pay anything any way? The numbers are what they are."

This moronic question has been dragged all over these blogs by the dumb Republicans and it begs to be answered once and for all.

Have you shmucks ever heard of progressive income tax?
Have you ever heard of negative income tax?
Have you ever seen the tax tables in your 1040 forms and instructions that you get every year in the mail? Look it up, what is the cutoff taxable income level where you dont pay any income tax?

What have you got on your shoulders, a head or a "tuchas"?

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 4:11 PM | Report abuse

Joe has one man to blame for the scrutinous rain that now falls upon him, and that's John McCain. The McCain campaign could have had the common decency to ask if it would be okay if McCain invoked his name and situation before the Senator did so -- 15 times no less -- during the nationally televised debate.

Posted by: Left_of_the_Pyle | October 17, 2008 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Maybe because stupid people like you who have done nothing for their country do not understand.

Posted by: WhoKnows1 | October 17, 2008 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Just wondering if it was even fair for McCain to use a person's story without that person's permission? Who found out his name? Who looked up his address? If I were Joe I'd think about suing McCain for using my name and story without a whit of permission and causing "mental anguish" as he is now racked over the coals by so many. Joe asked a reasonable question, one that merited an answer. Barack gave it, whether it satisfied Joe or not, it was honest. Joe was then free to make his decision...and now he bears the weight of the world on his shoulders and McCain blames Obama? Get real, John. You're losing touch wtih reality altogether...If you hadn't mentioned him by name, without his permission, none of this would have happened.

Posted by: RDvanreken | October 17, 2008 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Joe the plumber would not have been harassed if John the senator did not bring him up during the debate.

Posted by: hayden1 | October 17, 2008 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Dear realtexan ,

McCains point of $5 million was a joke of sorts.. of course as soon as he said it he said he would be taken out of context. Wealthy is subjective. If you asked someone who makes $5 million he would tell you $10 million is wealthy. If you ask someone who makes $25,000 he would tell you $50,000.

The class warfare is unreal in this country. I only wish my boss made $5 Million a year. If he did I'd be thrilled. It would mean we could expand the business, hire more people and improve our infrastructure. It would also mean that I'd make more money as well.

But, we have to TAX THE EVIL RICH, punish them, make them suffer. Unlike Joe Biden, my boss gives heavily to charity. heck I give more to charity than Biden!

Posted by: tbastian | October 17, 2008 4:08 PM | Report abuse

What I find fascinating is that we know more about "Joe the Plumber" in less than 5 days than ANYONE knows about "Barack Barry Hussein Obama Soetero". And "Barry" has been "vetted" by the media for a YEAR AND A HALF!!!!!!

Journalism professors everywhere should be PROUD.

Posted by: MAfromNM | October 17, 2008 4:08 PM | Report abuse

McCain has become a parody of a candidate. I once pitied him, but now I realize he's really the jackass that he appears to be. Why are McCain's life and choices such a series of disasters?

Posted by: smc91 | October 17, 2008 4:07 PM | Report abuse

"The reason they are digging into Joes life is because he was a plant by the McCain camp!Just how do you think McCain had so much info on the questions he ask,you dont think McCain was at an Obama visit do you?It will turn out that Joe was hired be McCains people."


Key indicators:
- He claims to be undecided yet only compliments McCain and criticizes Obama.
- Claims he doesn't make enough to have his taxes increased under Obama, but "fears" that they will lower the cutoff to - Claims he plans to buy a company that WOULD make >$250k/year.

Which is it Joe? Are you afraid that you will be making MORE money, or that they will eventually tax people making LESS? You do also realize that taxation is based on PROFIT not on total income, right? Many expenses (including HEALTH INSURANCE under OBAMA) are tax deductible. Payroll is taxed separately REGARDLESS of the companies income. Do you know ANYTHING about MATH, TAXES, or BUSINESS Joe?

Posted by: AgnosticEngineer | October 17, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

What lpskip said.

Posted by: officermancuso | October 17, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

McCain, dirty spitball and junkball pitcher extraordinaire, threw another monkey wrench into the campaign with Joe The Plumber. Joe, the guy who doesn't pay his taxes....crying out about tax relief.

Joe the Plumber, besides once living on ***Keating Ave in Mesa AZ****!!!! (it's true, look it up... for free at many lookup services!) is several incarnations away from making $250,000.

He's a Fox news plant, as evidence from his admitting to Terry Moran on Nightline "I heard some scuttlebut about them talking about me in the debate"

Posted by: TruthWalksOnWater | October 17, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

This is all so laughable. Camp NObama is all hot on Joe when Joe doesn't even matter. What matters is NObama's reply.
He wants to give everyone behind Joe the same opportunity for success, and he said that when we spread the wealth around, it's good for everyone.

ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!! I don't know about you, but where I grew up, people had to work for success - how it should be. You don't get success because some socialist suit says let's spread the wealth around. You get riches and sucess from hard work. This country will go to sh*t if NObama makes it to the presidency. While I cling to my guns, I'm praying to GOD that he doesn't get elected.

Joe doesn't matter, NObama's response to him does.

Posted by: MidwestMike | October 17, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

FACT obamiden's plan is to raise taxes on individuals making 125,000 not 250,000 (look at the detailes - it is family income - not individual income - in other words a lie) - can anyone who knows obama's actual voting record and the fact he broke his pledge regarding campaign finance and the fact that obama intends to increase government spending, honestly believe obama only intends to raise taxes on those making 125k - you have got to be kidding me - ONLY THE MOST GULLIBLE AND THE MOST GREEDY SUPPORT OBAMA - IF OBAMA IS ELECTED THE GULLIBLE WHO SUPPORT HIM WILL SOON BE SENDING THEIR MONEY TO OBAMA'S GREEDY CHICAGO, UNION BOSS, ELITIST, BIG CORPORATE, RADICAL DEMOCRATIC FRIENDS - OBAMA'S PLANS AS STATED (SUCH AS HEALTH CARE) ARE BAD FOR THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS. HIS ACTUAL PLANS ARE WORSE. vote for the people - vote mccain / palin

Posted by: jothemedicaldoctor | October 17, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

Joe should get smeared. He owes at least a grand in back taxes. He's happy that troops were sent to Iraq costing us, taxpayers 10 billion per month. And good ol' Joe defaults on paying his taxes.
Hey Joe the Deadbeat... PAY YOUR TAXES!

Posted by: AB68 | October 17, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

It would seem to me that JOHN MCCAIN was the one who focused the media on Joe the plumber by mentioning him 21 times during the debate. Of course everyone wants to know who he is to rate the mention. For McCain or his camp to blame anyone else is an attempt for them to take responsibility for their own actions.
Had McCain not mentioned him over and over, he would have been a minor note.

Posted by: JessefromMO | October 17, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

"*Incidentally, how "fair" is it that the top 1% of earners in the U.S. pay 30% of all income taxes, and the top 10% pay 75% of them?"

I think this is my favorite statistic rich snobs always throw out. The stat they leave out is that these 10% make a little over 50% of the country's combined wealth. That leaves the other 50 to be spread among 90% of Americans. They make it sound as if these wealthmongers will be put in the street if they have to pay even more taxes, when in actuality, it simply means their private jets will be upholstered with regular ole cow leather, instead of the gold-trimmed skins of unborn sea-lions. For the 10%, this is called the American way, for the rest of us, it's called greed.

Posted by: BENBG01 | October 17, 2008 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Cry"alot"OS

Posted by: Independent4tw | October 17, 2008 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Obama spent six minutes thoroughly answering a question from a voter at a campaign stop. A voter he had every reason to believe wouldn't be happy with the answer he was getting and probably wouldn't vote for him but whom he treated with respect. McCain dragged him into the debate in an attempt to score points. And he's now cynically trying to score some more. I don't buy it. It was McCain who threw him to the wolves.

Posted by: lpskip | October 17, 2008 4:05 PM | Report abuse

It's the end of the Greedy Oil Party as we know it ...and I feel fine.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmxyj6iInMc
.


"Our economy is structurally sound for the long term"
George W Bush - Feb 11, 2008


"The American people can remain confident in the soundness and the resilience of our financial system"
Henry Paulson - Sept 15, 2008


"The fundamentals of our economy are strong"
John McCain - Sept 15, 2008


"The economy is fundamentally sound"
Herbert Hoover - October, 1931


McCain does not have the ability to fix this economic crisis. After declaring the fundamentals of the economy strong, he created a political circus in Washington by mucking up bailout negotiations; a deplorable campaign stunt, considering he and his political cronies helped cause the current meltdown.

It was McCain and his economic adviser Phil Gramm who pushed for the deregulation that helped lead to the banking crisis, and it was McCain's crony Rick Davis who had deep lobbyist ties to Freddie Mac. Don't let others be fooled by McCain's economic grandstanding because the reality is his policies and principles will only exacerbate our financial hardships.

McCain is being deceitful with his sudden populist message and support for regulation; his economic policies still favor our nation's wealthy elite.


Here's some more mavericky straight-talk, my friends:
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4egXbhSOhk
.

Posted by: DrainYou | October 17, 2008 4:04 PM | Report abuse

star_key2:
Let's also add the people that don't pay taxes - not criminals - but people that don't have a tax liability and are therefore not required to file. They all of course will start filing if they qualify for a refundable credit.

Posted by: minghia | October 17, 2008 4:04 PM | Report abuse

If your correct with your top 1% then according to john McCain there are no wealthy people in our country.When ask what he thought a wealthy person was,he replied,anyone that makes 5 million a year..how out of touch can a guy be?Or is he just a moron? That would be my guess.

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 4:03 PM | Report abuse

Did America forget what the Boston Tea Party was all about? Taxation without representation! If you want to tax the upper 1% more than the should get a greater voice in government since they are paying for it. Now that doesn't sound very democratic and neither does "spread the wealth around"

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 4:03 PM | Report abuse

JMGinPDX, Read your first reply to me!

What a moron. Hey are you really Obama?

Jerk!

edge.

Posted by: edgeco1 | October 17, 2008 4:02 PM | Report abuse

So let me get this straight, McCain planted this guy.. Wow does he have power.. he convinced Obama's campaign to walk down this street... pretty good!

A registered GOP guy can't aska question? So, if I am a registered Republican I can't be undecided about who is best? I can't ask a question of the chosen one or Messiah as Farrakahn calls him.

How about leaving the poor guy alone. The Obama smear campaign never ends.

I also wonder how many posts here are done by "paid" or volunteers for the Obama campaign. Many companies all over the country routinely do this on blog sites to promote or market a product. I would find it surprising if this isn't the case.

Posted by: tbastian | October 17, 2008 4:02 PM | Report abuse

You know it's so funny to hear McCain sticking up for poor Joe the Plumber, who really isn't a licensed plumber and would actually stand to save taxes on Obama's plan..

And to his point of all the attention he's got and being checked out, Obama didn't have to do that john you idiot. You're the one who brought him to the medias attention Wednesday night at the debate, over and over and over. Didn't you check him out as much as you did your running mate? lol...Or maybe you planted him to use at the debate...

In any election when someone nobody knows is in the spotlight during a campaign his life and background is open for all the world to see. It's been like that forever. even before Obama was born John so quit blaming Obama for your dumb ploy...

Posted by: ksmoneal | October 17, 2008 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Did I miss something? McCain is angry because of all the attentions being paid to Joe The Plumber and blames Obama?

Joe the Plumber is being raked through the poles because John McCain zeroed in on him in Wednesday night's debate!

And he wonders why he is loosing. Anyone with half a brain can see through the McCain crap. The republican party has become the part of the stupid.

Posted by: GSquare | October 17, 2008 4:01 PM | Report abuse

"I think these Obama dornes will be sadly awaken on election day! The fact of the matter is that you can't trust "polls" to give a true picture of the situation."

Posted by: AverageAmerican1
####
Delusion is a human coping mechanism that helps an individual ignore completely or at the very least warp reality so it makes sense to them.

You my friend, are delusional.

Posted by: Godhimself1 | October 17, 2008 4:00 PM | Report abuse

solidstate said:
"You don't have to be a McCain supporter (I'm not) to know Economics 101. Increasing taxes -- in the name of "fairness"* or for any other reason -- creates a disincentive for many individuals near that level to earn more.

Hey solidstate, are you not ashamed to post such drivel in national media for all to see? That crap they teach you in ECON 101 is not fact but a theoretical point of departure based on some very ethereal assumptions about human behavior. Social science is NOT hard science, least of all Economics.

Where have you ever seen a businessman NOT trying to make a buck, at ANY tax level?

Where have you ever seen a businessman paying his fair share of taxes and not concealing any income from IRS?

And don't even start with me on "efficent markets" and "market equilibrium". Next time your teacher tells you this nonsense, ask him:

Efficient for WHO?
WHOSE equilibrium?

As that great economist, George Carlin, would probably say, "When the market is in equilibrium, I get f..ed in the A$$"

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 4:00 PM | Report abuse

"My point is- Let's call taking hard earned money from your plumber, dentist, accountant, psychologist, etc and giving checks to people who currently pay NO income tax- welfare, period. If you agree with it, that's your perogative, just let's call it what it is."

Yep exactly. It works great in crapholes like Chicago with a huge group of uneducated hopeless trash but I just was hoping the rest of america hadn't devolved that far.

Posted by: Cryos | October 17, 2008 4:00 PM | Report abuse

That's strange, cuz I could have SWORN that it was McCain who brought up Joe the Plumber and McCain who shamelessly used him as yet another campaign gimmick. Seriously... Johnny Mac has been in Congress for nearly 30 years and he wants us to believe that he's suprised that the media is digging into someone??? I'd like to claim that he's out of touch, but I think it's more likely that he's just being slimy again. No one believes your stories anymore, Grandpa!

Posted by: Jazzgasm | October 17, 2008 3:59 PM | Report abuse

@ merlin50, godhimself1 & the rest of the socialists reading this:

Whatever Dude!

Please move to Russia where your "ideals" have worked so wonderfully . . . and let us conservative capitalists take this nation in the RIGHT direction.

McCAIN / PALIN 2008 & 2012 . . . because they WILL win and Obama will drift away like chaff in the wind.

Posted by: Whatever_Dude | October 17, 2008 3:59 PM | Report abuse

Gosh, someone found out and published the truth about Plumber Joe and somehow that is equated with personal attacks. It wasn't the Obama campaign that made false claims; it was McCain hoping to score political points by showing a supposedly struggling blue collar worker just trying to get ahead and playing by the rules.

To me, an ordinary blue collar worker is not someone who could afford to purchase a $250,000 per-year (gross profit) business. Earning $250,000 per year puts you in the top 1.5% of this country. You are hopelessly out of touch with reality if by considering that normal.

Claims that taxes unfairly hurt the wealthy. The rich underpay their fair share because that top 10% controls 90% of the wealth but pays only 70% of the taxes. Please help me understand your perspective on egalitarian or progressive tax systems.

Posted by: lbcentaur | October 17, 2008 3:58 PM | Report abuse

"Joe said, sure today it's people making over 250K that will get killed by Obama's taxes, but soon, as Obama's agenda gets more expensive, it will be people making 150K, and so on"

Yep in the primaries his "tax cuts" only including people under $70K. Then he hit the general election and was like uhoh independants and republicans actually are educated, independant and make good money I better up the ante.

I know many Obama supporters aren't old enough to remember the last democratic president who promised tax breaks for the middle class and then raised taxes for everyone over $20K. I know 20K might be nice for the high school dropout gas station working liberals but its peanuts for anyone with even a slight bit of self respect.

Posted by: Cryos | October 17, 2008 3:58 PM | Report abuse

wp18
Can you package whatever drugs you are obviously taking - trust me; you could be off welfare in a week.

To think that the top 10 fund managers make "SIXTEEN BILLION ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS" is moronic.

I suppose I could counter your biased tripe with an equally ignorant remark like "the top 10 welfare scamming liberals conned the government out of over 500,000,000,000 gazillion dollars."

Posted by: Bcamp55 | October 17, 2008 3:57 PM | Report abuse

uhh.. Joe was the one who went out to talk to Obama, right. If Joe isn't paying all his taxes, he really shouldn't be complaining about them on national TV. "Joe the Plumber" is riding his 15 min. of fame just fine. Next week he will have a reality show or become a Fox News commentator.

At least Joe has made himself more accessible than than the Republican's VP candidates, Sarah whatsername and the first dude (seriously John, that was your best pick?)

The only reason Republicans keep trying to say Senator Obama isn't facing the tough questions, is that so far they can't seem to find an answer that fits into their ridiculous conspiracy theories.

What happened to you Senator McCain? I like a lot of people would have voted for you. But sell your "country first" rant to someone else. Perhaps after the election you will regain my respect. But your campaign of distraction has taken us to new lows.

An Independent For Obama.

Posted by: msg2ks | October 17, 2008 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Who Pays Income Taxes? See Who Pays What

For Tax Year 2006

Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Top 1%
$388,806
39.89% of all income taxes

Top 5%
$153,542
60.14% of all income taxes

Top 10%
$108,904
70.79% of all income taxes

Top 25%
$64,702
86.27% of all income taxes

Top 50%
$31,987
97.01% of all income taxes

Bottom 50%
2.99% of all income taxes

Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service
**1/2 of our people pay less than 3% of the income tax!!! So how do 95% percent of Americans get a tax cut when nearly 50% don't pay anything any way? The numbers are what they are.

Posted by: star_key2 | October 17, 2008 3:57 PM | Report abuse

"JMGinPDX, sorry I thought that some folks had brains here. Since you don't please don't read my comments.
Edge"

Ah yes. For lack of anything more productive to say, you resort to a personal attack on ME based on one comment.

Typical.


The fact remains that your posts are empty of any real substance and are nothing but sarcastic hype.

Posted by: JMGinPDX | October 17, 2008 3:57 PM | Report abuse


Are you there
"G-dhimself1"...It's me Margaret-
***********
thecannula:

Your point is trivial. The real point is Only the top 5% (which account for only 29% of all taxes) will see an increase.

Posted by: Godhimself1 | October 17, 2008 12:27 PM | Report abuse


My point is- Let's call taking hard earned money from your plumber, dentist, accountant, psychologist, etc and giving checks to people who currently pay NO income tax- welfare, period. If you agree with it, that's your perogative, just let's call it what it is.


Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 3:56 PM | Report abuse

Sure, blame Obama for what the press did.

McCain has no pride anymore.

Posted by: Independent4tw | October 17, 2008 3:56 PM | Report abuse

Barak Obama - would be president - would be history maker - brought down by a question from Joe the plumber. Woohahahaha now that's eloquence!

Posted by: minghia | October 17, 2008 3:56 PM | Report abuse

This "Joe the Plumber" crap is about as dumb as McCain's pick of Palin for VP........and it looks like they vetted Joe's story about as well as they vetted Palin.

Pathetic, desparate, and laughable, my friends.....

Posted by: RightDownTheMiddle | October 17, 2008 3:55 PM | Report abuse

It is absolutely hysterical that some of you think this Joe dude will actually have bearing on this election. Can I have some of that you are smoking?

Posted by: Godhimself1 | October 17, 2008 3:55 PM | Report abuse

"Joe is not a plumber, is probably a Republican plant"
------------
Indeed. I don't have the exact article now, but Joe once lived in Mesa AZ and is related to a cohort of McCain's from the Keating debacle.

I can see the brainstorming session now...
"Hey, why don't we dig up that cousin of my old buddy and prop him up like some everyday plumber guy? Yeah! That will distract everyone from the real issues!"

Posted by: JMGinPDX | October 17, 2008 3:54 PM | Report abuse

JMGinPDX, sorry I thought that some folks had brains here. Since you don't please don't read my comments.

edge.

Posted by: edgeco1 | October 17, 2008 3:54 PM | Report abuse

"@Whatever_Dude

Believe it I make over 250K and I want to have proper roads, research into disease, children to have proper health care, people to keep their homes, have the basics of life that everyone deserves. The wealth in this country is disproportionately in the hands of the rich. 39% is not an outrageous tax assessment once you make over 250K. This is not socialism it is common decency.

Posted by: Merlin50"

Do you voluntarily give more than your required amount in taxes? If not how about you live your own ideals before putting them on other people.

All these hypocrites don't give money to charity or voluntary money to the government but theyre fine telling everyone else it is their obligation.

Liberals are just upset because they've tried denying Obama is a socialist as scare tactics (they know better but try giving empty defenses to the empty suit) and without a teleprompter Obama comes out and says what he really thinks. Guess what liberals your BS can't always hide reality from interested parties.

Posted by: Cryos | October 17, 2008 3:54 PM | Report abuse

John McCain, get real! YOU'RE the one who brought him up in a nationally televised debate and really brought the spotlight onto him! Most of us hadn't heard about him before then and probably wouldn't have otherwise.

Always blaming someone else! I thought it was the republicans who are so big on 'taking personal responsibility' - but maybe that mainly applies to things like poor folks getting a little help with food stamps and other such outrageous entitlements.

Meanwhile the nation is breathless - from sleep apnea in this case - as to WHAT will be John McCain's new focus NEXT week!

By the way, the media obviously HAS looked into Obama's background - way more than Joe's, I'm sure - and it seems it hasn't found much, or we would have surely heard about it. Nevermind the evil, liberal NY Times etc. You think FOX news, the Wall St Journal, Rupert Murdoch's empire, etc, etc don't have investigative reporters of their own?? Of course they do! If they found something that most people - not just the hyperventilating right wingers - were troubled by it would be a big issue by now, if not already back in the primaries. Face it, my friends on the right, most folks find Bill Ayers etc, etc to be irrelevant. Another case of blaming, blaming, blaming!

Posted by: Leo3 | October 17, 2008 3:53 PM | Report abuse

McCain tossed a "Hail Mary" by selecting Sarah Palin ... without proper scrutiy.

McCain selected Joe the Plumber as his other "Hail Mary" to generate interest in his debate to "whip his you know what", in reference to Obama.

McCain has now created an embarassment for Joe the Plumber and o himself-McCain.

Can he be trusted to make the right decision on the pressing issues that face the nation?? -- Most likely not !!

Obama/Biden -- 2008

Posted by: NorthernPolarBear | October 17, 2008 3:52 PM | Report abuse

Why was that white guy even allowed to look at the face of the Chosen ONE!

I'll assume then that you're fresh out of real facts and intelligent ideas and are now resorting to vitriolic hype, attacks, and sarcasm because that's all you have left.

Are you sure you're not John McCain?

Posted by: JMGinPDX | October 17, 2008 3:51 PM | Report abuse

The Tale of Joe the Senator and Joe the Plumber

McCain won the Debate by Introducing the Desires of Hard Working Americans to get Ahead Back into the Race in the Form of Joe the Plumber-

Joe the Plumber now has a voice, speaking for the middle and upper middle class, trying to get ahead. The REAL Rich has been represented by Penny Pritzker's Candidate. Joe said, sure today it's people making over 250K that will get killed by Obama's taxes, but soon, as Obama's agenda gets more expensive, it will be people making 150K, and so on...it's like that old saying about not speaking out when someone comes for your neighbors....soon there will no one left to speak out when someone comes for you.

Biden made over 250K each of the past 3 years and gave less than $1000 in charity total over that time; but he feels it's "Patriotic" to ask everyone else to redistribute THEIR earnings.


You know Joe the Senator, LOTS of us wouldn't mind pulling down 200K a year, not paying higher taxes, not giving much to charity....JUST LIKE YOU!

Posted by: thecannula | October 17, 2008 3:51 PM | Report abuse

This hoopla over Joe the Plumber exposes the worst side of Republican dirty politics. Joe is not a plumber, is probably a Republican plant, has not paid his taxes and actually would be better off with Obama if he were a real plumber. For the media to waste this much time on this phony person when we have so many problems to solve is ridiculous.

John McCain and other corrupt Republicans caused the savings and loan crash in the early 1990's and now McCain is part of the Republican Culture of Corruption responsible for the current crash. They are now running a disgustingly negative campaign throwing all the mud they can. This is dangerous for our country because it brings out the crazy people seen at recent McCain-Palin rallies.

John McCain is confused, erratic, showing signs of dementia, is not looking healthy, likely to have his melanoma cancer return and is mindlessly spouting lies from his sleazy, dishonest campaign. John McCain has been in lockstep with George W Bush over 90% of the time. Another four years of Bush policies would totally destroy our country and that is what we would get with John McCain. If you believe John McCain's recent campaign lies that suddenly he would be different, then I have a Bridge to Nowhere to sell you.

Sarah Palin is clearly unqualified to be President, is a religious fundamentalist extremist who would take away a women's right to choose and would create an American Taliban reversing all the gains in civil rights. For the sake of our country, we must make sure that Barack Obama is elected President.

Having said that, Obama as President would be smart to have some moderate Republicans on his team because we are all Americans and need to work together in bipartisan fashion to solve our problems.

See http://www.Democracy-Now.us

Posted by: Fox7777 | October 17, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Thank you, merlin50!

Posted by: Godhimself1 | October 17, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

getsix1:
Sorry, you're pathetic. You live at home with your parents, you expect them to pay for your college education, you somehow think you are ENTITLED more than 10/hr jobs and the money CEOs earn.
Vote for Obama - you'll get a refundable tax credit for education - you deserve it.

Hope you'll make it out of bed in time for class. Good luck.

Posted by: minghia | October 17, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

What's sad about this is that more investigation into Joe's background and private life has been done than has been done on Bill Ayers and what his relationship with Obama really is.

It so clearly demonstrates how biased the media is that they will go to such extraordinary lengths to discredit somebody who did nothing more than ask a tough question - something, admittedly, that Obama is not used to getting, what with the media bias and all - and now he's got the full focus of the media spotlight looking for any dirt they can find on him.

If they could destroy him, they would without feeling an ounce of remorse. And that is disturbing.

Posted by: bsdavey | October 17, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

The reason they are digging into Joes life is because he was a plant by the McCain camp!Just how do you think McCain had so much info on the questions he ask,you dont think McCain was at an Obama visit do you?It will turn out that Joe was hired be McCains people.

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Or even root :)

Posted by: edgeco1 | October 17, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Chicago Tribune endorses Obama!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/

Posted by: koolkat_1960 | October 17, 2008 3:49 PM | Report abuse

"What Joe should have asked the lying scum bag [Obama]..."

Right.
Because McCain and Palin have been really forthcoming about Keating, Troopergate, McCain & ACORN, Cindy's questionable dealings, Alaskan secessionists, etc.

Hypocrites.
No double standard allowed here.

Posted by: JMGinPDX | October 17, 2008 3:49 PM | Report abuse

"He didn't ask for Senator Obama to come to his house." Barack Obama came to his house? Seriously, I don't think so. McCain was the one to use Joe/Sam for his own political purposes, and should have known that the press would descend on him. Did he even ask Joe if he could use his name? Why does McCain blame Obama every time his political tactics backfire on him?

Posted by: kdevault | October 17, 2008 3:49 PM | Report abuse

rtfanning,
You are one crazy SOB! Keep it up! We at the office search out your comments. They are hysterical!

Posted by: Godhimself1 | October 17, 2008 3:49 PM | Report abuse

"Why would John McCain stand up for Joe the Plumber, who lied about his income level and the income of the business that he can't afford ? He who does not have a plumbing license and owes back taxes will turn out to be a ball and chain for McCain.

Posted by: mrtutto"

I love people who can't comprehend the point of it. Obama let a bit of his true colors show and his advisors are mad so they're going to go after Joe's character. It is about Obama's socialist answer not about Joe.

Expect the same if Obama is president. Any dissenters will be harrassed, taken to court and ridiculed in the media. The bitter, nasty left will do all they can to smear and quell opposition and anyone that has the "nerve" to believe in freedom and the control over their own lives.

Posted by: Cryos | October 17, 2008 3:48 PM | Report abuse

coup d' etat, the gentleman from mars states.
Look it up. Coup d' etat for government overthrows was the job Bush 1 held at the CIA on Nov. 22, 1963.

In declassified documents, Bush made a telephone call near Tyler TX (one hour away from Dallas) about one hour after JFK was shot.

Who are the ones hungry for POWER I ask you??

Posted by: TruthWalksOnWater | October 17, 2008 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Leave it to McCain to forget to vet Joe the Plumber before he made him his new campaign mascot. McCain's history of vetting running mates and mascots leads me to worry a great deal about his ability to vet Supreme Court nominees and cabinet appointees.

Posted by: DogBitez | October 17, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Who the Hell does Joe the Plumber think he is asking Obama a question!

Why was that white guy even allowed to look at the face of the Chosen ONE!

This MUST stop!

If some citizen thinks that they can ask the candidates questions then WE have the right to search their garbage, and dig up anything that WE can to discredit them.

This Country is in sad shape when we rout for bad things about our neighbors!
Shame on US to allow the Press to do this.

edge.

Posted by: edgeco1 | October 17, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

@Whatever_Dude

Believe it I make over 250K and I want to have proper roads, research into disease, children to have proper health care, people to keep their homes, have the basics of life that everyone deserves. The wealth in this country is disproportionately in the hands of the rich. 39% is not an outrageous tax assessment once you make over 250K. This is not socialism it is common decency.

Posted by: Merlin50 | October 17, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

solidstate asks: Incidentally, how "fair" is it that the top 1% of earners in the U.S. pay 30% of all income taxes? I was unable to find easily the income of the top 1% of earners, which would help answer the question. However, I did find the incomes for 2007 for the top ten hedge fund managers, and it is SIXTEEN BILLION ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS - for ten people! The principle of a graduated income tax has long been accepted as fairness in American tradition. If 1% of top earners are taking home more than 20% of individual income, then it certainly IS fair for them to stop creaming off the substance of the gross domestic product.
The fact is that the tax percentage borders on irrelevance because of the the tax loopholes structured for corporate benefit. Indeed, much of our current chaos is related to the way our actual tax policy and the obscene Bush tax cuts that McCain would perpetuate are actually a form of welfare benefits for the very rich.

Posted by: wp18 | October 17, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

vote for someone that will send you a check in the mail vote for obama

Posted by: getsix1 | October 17, 2008 3:44 PM | Report abuse

First off, I am completely a Obama supporter.

That being said, I kinda hope some of you would lay off of Joe. I am sure he is doing what is needs to get by. It's not easy getting, and holding onto a job. In his place, if someone offered me a job, and said I did not a license (with employer supervision), I'd take it, too.

I live in red-neck Florida, and they believe McCain's hype, too.

Give the working man a break !!

Posted by: landrysk | October 17, 2008 3:43 PM | Report abuse

"For this, McCain blames his opponent, Barack Obama.

"The response from Senator Obama and his campaign yesterday was to attack Joe," McCain said. "People are digging through his personal life and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house."

----------------

Oh come on, John.

The media attention on Wurzelbacher, the vetting of his personal life and records, is not the result of the Obama campaign...

It's the result of a media that loves soundbites and salacious headlines because those sell advertising space.

How odd that you and your conservative ilk love to blame the mainstream 'liberal' media for all your problems, yet you oddly are unwilling to lay this one at their feet?

So now the sins of the media are owned by Obama?

Get over it John - maybe your core consituency of blind sheep is fooled by the negative hype and blustering that your campaign has become, but the rest of America is not buying yours or your running mate's trite cutdowns.

You'd think you would have learned something by new.
Einstein said "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." By that definition, Ol' McCain is insane in the membrane, I fear.

Posted by: JMGinPDX | October 17, 2008 3:43 PM | Report abuse

@ Merlin50

"Spread the wealth around-what is so wrong with that."

Think about this (you socialist retard):

If the government is just going to give money to low lifes for free . . . why should any of us keep working hard to EARN money? Obama is going to create a nation of lazy idiots . . . just like you.

Posted by: Whatever_Dude | October 17, 2008 3:41 PM | Report abuse

The "Joe the plumber" bottom in the Dow Jones Industrials

Government has forced it's self on the boards of all of Americas' surviving largest financial institutions.

In the Brave New World of absolute unchecked power, those who seek credit for housing or business will be obliged as a precondition to getting any sort of financing , to swear allegiance to the 'Democratic' party.
This is already how mortgages are being facilitated through ACORN.

The "Joe the plumber" bottom in the Dow Jones Industrials tells us America looked over the Dodd/ Pelosi / Frank / Obama precipice and into their Abyss and said; "no thanks".

Joe will go down in American history as the man who single handed stopped a Communist coup d' etat by telling Obama "You can't have the money out of my pocket for my American Dream so you can redistribute the wealth".

The market is signaling in it's forward forecasting that ;
1) the recession / depression that everyone is expecting will not occur.
2) Mc Cain will win and taxes won't go up.

http://www.cbot.com/cbot/pub/page/0,,1560%20chart,00.html?symb=YM&month=Z&year=08&period=D&study=&study0=&study1=&study2=&study3=&bartype=Bar&bardensity=LOW

Disagree ?
Get Soros to bring out the sellers; they're played out.

Want further confirmation?
Watch Obama declare a Jihad against FOX news as he slips over the next 3 weeks.

Ever wonder why Barrak is so cool and unflappable?
He was convinced the fix was in. Now Plumber Joe has unseated "the One"....only in America can a plumber take down a Harvard Liberal Elitist with a half billion $ war chest.


Posted by: rtfanning | October 17, 2008 3:41 PM | Report abuse

People are caught up in Joe and digging up dirt on him.
The point was not Joe's question but Obama's answer of "SPREADING THE WEALTH AROUND" taking Joe's money that he worked for and giving it to A-hole that doesn't work.....Obama's spreading the wealth around is called BIG WELLFARE and SOCIALISM.........
If all the conservatives quit working and become welfare bums he won't have anything to spread around.

Posted by: xantiphi | October 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Report abuse

How dare any mere mortal ask THE ONE a question? No, of course Obama isn't an elitist; just like the media hasn’t been kissing his *ss from day one.

Odd how this guy asked a question (BTW- which hasn't been answered truthfully yet) and in no time the media has to come running to the rescue in an attempt to dissuade anyone else from asking Obama an embarrassing question.

What Joe should have asked the lying scum bag was how big do your b*lls have to be to take more than $100K from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae at the exact same time you’re voting against S.190; a bill that could have prevented the financial meltdown from all the “give a bro a mortgage” loans that you and ACORN blackmailed the financial institutions into requiring in order to prevent cries of racism?

And if you don't think plumbers make $250K a year, do the math. In my "neighborhood" the going rate is $165/hour. If my liberally biased, union protected, public math education (which admittedly sucked) serves me correctly $165 X 2,000 (the number of work hours in a year for you welfare sucking libs) = $330K.

Posted by: Bcamp55 | October 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Report abuse

It's really disgusting all the things people will believe. The GOP has this P.T. Barnum attitude that there is a sucker born every minute, and guess what...they're right! Every single lie vomited out of McCain's mouth is reputed, but you don't hear that. Your violent and unsettled minds only see the original negative. And now McCain wants to blame Obama for Joe's plight, when he mentioned Joe 20 times in the debate the other night. It really makes wonder throughout our history, before the information age, how many lies were spread about political opponents that were never checked, and how many presidents we've had who based their campaigns on lies and mistrust.

Posted by: BENBG01 | October 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Report abuse

sparlette:

If Joe is a "regular American citizen", we're all doomed.

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Report abuse

This is why I am fearful about Obamo winning. Joe the Plumber who would right now benifit under Obamo's tax plan sees himself more alaigned with McCain than his finicial reality. Because McCain seems to be losing you want to claim media bias why is not Todd Palin's belonging to a Seperatist party not in the headlines how unamerican can you get when you dislike america so much that you want to succeed from it? We should have debates based on facts

Posted by: emmoore86 | October 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Report abuse

It's so odd, strategically, that the McCain campaign would choose as their example average American a person whose story has them earning $250,000 a year. Who, exactly, do they hope will relate to that? Are they that out of touch?

Posted by: Gabrielle4 | October 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Report abuse

McCain/Palin mavericks? I think not!! more like a stick horse and a nag.They arent anything new.Republican ideology is republican ideology,you can put the hat on a differant head but its still the same hat.

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 3:38 PM | Report abuse

Why would John McCain stand up for Joe the Plumber, who lied about his income level and the income of the business that he can't afford ? He who does not have a plumbing license and owes back taxes will turn out to be a ball and chain for McCain.

Posted by: mrtutto | October 17, 2008 3:38 PM | Report abuse

getsix1 wrote:
"i want to go to college my parents wont pay for it they say i could find a job and pay for it myself"

Son, your parents are not so wrong, after all.
You don't belong in college with such atrocious
orthography and punctuation.

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 3:38 PM | Report abuse

"Joe the Plumber" is actually a victim of all the Right Wing hate radio (Limbaugh, Savage etc) claptrap that has permeated the airwaves for the past 20 years. His views on everything from immigration to taxes are straight out of the Seany Hannity synopses.


The problem is that "Joe" doesn't even know enough of the facts to understand what side his bread is buttered on. But he does know one thing: he feels like a failure. And he's ashamed of himself in a deep way.


That's why "Joe" made up the story about being able to buy a business. And why he talks like a Dittohead - he's scared he really doesn't have the ability to figure things out for himself, so he relies on the ideas of the rightwing nuts who scream the loudest i. e. Faux Noise Channel, Rush etc etc.


Posted by: DrainYou | October 17, 2008 3:38 PM | Report abuse

Yep, all Joe did was ask Obama a question. McCain is the one that opened Joe's life up to questions. McCain is the one responsible for invading Joe's privacy; McCain needs to accept responsibility for Joe's being shown for what he actually is. McCain should say "I screwed up, like he said to Letterman. But, eventually, McCain looks like a stupid old fool.

Posted by: linda_521 | October 17, 2008 3:38 PM | Report abuse

I love it when people underestimate MCCAIN and PALIN. And Joe the Plumber is the democrats worst nightmare: A regular American citizen who questions their policies. This campaingn is getting very amusing.

Posted by: sparlette | October 17, 2008 3:37 PM | Report abuse

I notice that Joe the Plumber had a lien for a hospital bill. Did anyone ask whether he has health insurance? Can his employer afford to give him health insurance? Let's compare what he would get under each campaign's health care plans!

Posted by: Akamai1 | October 17, 2008 3:36 PM | Report abuse

"It appears that McCain's support has shrunk at this web site." That's because the R's ran out of maoney and can't afford paid trolls.

If the McCain camp pulls this person out of obscurity and thrusts him into the limelight as an example then they can't complain if the public wants to know all about them. So much for Sarah. Now, as for Joe?

Neither one was vetted before being 'chosen' by the campaign. That's reckless. McCain already apologized to Joe, when will we hear an apology to America for unleashing Moose-hunt Barbie on America?

Posted by: thebobbob | October 17, 2008 3:35 PM | Report abuse

McCain is losing it. Lurching from one method of attack to another.
Next, he'll accuse ACORN of harrassing Joe the Plumber.
Dementia is a part of getting old, but it shouldn't be part of the White House.
Same with Lipstick.

Obama 2008

Posted by: Starderup | October 17, 2008 3:35 PM | Report abuse

Why does't McCain just send poor Joe & Sarah back to school...she can get a graduate degree in home economics & Joe can get licensed so he can pay back his back taxes. Bet Joe graduates first!

Posted by: MichelleH | October 17, 2008 3:34 PM | Report abuse

McCain brought Joe the Plumber into the conversation but did not vet him, just as he did not vet Sarah Palin and then he blames everyone who points out that the reality is not quite what he made it out to be. McCain is a desperate old man--he continues to blame and lie (on Letterman he continued to imply that Obama "pals around with terrorists"--note the plural and then his robo phone calls are saying the same thing) even though he said his campaign would be an ethical one. He cannot admit that perhaps he should not have brought up Joe the Plumber and instead have focused on actual issues.

Posted by: annehibbing | October 17, 2008 3:33 PM | Report abuse

I'm not sure why people are attacking the messenger. Joe's tax status, current income, and party affiliation have no bearing on Obama's answer to his question.

You don't have to be a McCain supporter (I'm not) to know Economics 101. Increasing taxes -- in the name of "fairness"* or for any other reason -- creates a disincentive for many individuals near that level to earn more. For small business owners, that could mean opting not to expand their business, this not hiring more workers, buying more equipment and supplies (manufactured by yet more workers), or using more outside services (supplied by...).

For those who the income is "spread around" to, it also creates a disincentive to expand their skill set, thus earning more income for life.

Neither of these outcomes creates prosperity for individuals or for the economy as a whole. Of course, a politician isn't in the business of doing that -- his business is getting votes. Judging from most comments on this thread, Obama is doing his job well.

*Incidentally, how "fair" is it that the top 1% of earners in the U.S. pay 30% of all income taxes, and the top 10% pay 75% of them?

Posted by: solidstate | October 17, 2008 3:33 PM | Report abuse

"Socialism/Communisim will never work in this freedom loving country!"

Communisim, huh? Is that Hebrew plural for
communis? As in: idiot-idiotim; Amerikan-Amerikanim, etc.

What the hell is communis? A kind of fruit?

And what kinda of fruit are you? About 17 years of age with a pimply mug and greasy long hair.
Attending the Stigmata of Our Savior Community College? In Turdville, WV someplace?

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 3:33 PM | Report abuse

i wont vote for mccain i live at home with my parents i want to go to college my parents wont pay for it they say i could find a job and pay for it myself. work im not getting in the morning for ten bucks an hr why should i work when some rich guy on wall street has so much money its not fair this joe plumber so are republicks all they say is you should work and pay your own way loosers

Posted by: getsix1 | October 17, 2008 3:32 PM | Report abuse

There was nothing wrong with Obama's original answer to Joe. Spread the wealth around-what is so wrong with that. If Joe was really making 250K he can pay 900 more in taxes. The republicans want to keep all the money for themselves-they are the greedy ones.

As it turns out Joe needs all the help he can get. I heard someone on Ed Schultz say his father is not well and the family does not have alot of money. Joe will need Obama's health plan. I am not sure why he is such an ideologue for the Republicans when the Democrats will really help him.

Posted by: Merlin50 | October 17, 2008 3:32 PM | Report abuse

In response to the comment by pressF1 "You know - you know - it's like tying something to a cat's tail. This guy McCain -- what's his focus? It's like one thing after another. The dude has, like, zero attention span. Joe the Plumber now. Come on, man, make some kind of a plan, do something systematic."

McCain is systematic. He systematically helps people who find creative ways to make money.

Posted by: Mark2000 | October 17, 2008 3:32 PM | Report abuse

McCain should stand up for Sam,oh I mean Joe the McCain camp plant.Yeah just another conservative liar.Id say he fits right in with McCain/Palin and the rest of the republican demographic.He never once had any thoughts of changing his politics.He's not a plumber,his name isnt Joe,he's never made 250K a year,he's always voted conservative,he's behind in his taxes,and Id say someone should talk to his ex-wife and see what she thinks about him!!

Posted by: realtexan | October 17, 2008 3:31 PM | Report abuse

joe is a deadbeat

doesn't pay taxes
skipped out on rent
works in violation of law

obama skipped his house because of a mccain sign in the front yard, the guy went after obama...he got what he deserved

btw: he's only pay

this loser who makes 40k/yr and cheats on his rent and taxes has more worries than an extra 1k in taxes on 250k income...

Posted by: Arthur5 | October 17, 2008 3:31 PM | Report abuse

LonewackoDotCom :
The best way to do that is to go out and ask Sara Palin even tougher questions than Joe the Plumber asked BO. Get Sara Palin's response on video, and upload it to Youtube.
Oh wait we would only get silence or more incoherent answers. Never mind.

Posted by: election081224 | October 17, 2008 3:30 PM | Report abuse

That psycho did it to us again. He switched the tracks. He changed the narrative without America noticing.
From the complete disaster policies/concepts of the GOP as a whole.....to a $40,000 unlicensed plumber. Crazy people are masters at derailing conversations. John McCain does it in nearly every interview

Just following this mental case and his campaign, is starting to become an international disgrace and embarrassment to Americans, as the world watches McCains constanly changing three ring circus called a presidential campaign. This guy's been a nut since Annapolis. Only 4 in his Navy graduating class were less capable intellectually....a little fact check for the bubba husband with his gum snapping soccer mom wife.

McCain, dirty spitball and junkball pitcher extraordinaire, threw another monkey wrench into the campaign with Joe The Plumber. Joe, the guy who doesn't pay his taxes....drying about tax relief.

"We dont need no more dumb presidents" should be the echo from McCain supporters.

Posted by: TruthWalksOnWater | October 17, 2008 3:29 PM | Report abuse

It appears that McCain's support has shrunk at this web site. Fewer of his supporters express main stream opinions. Obama as a left wing nut is the last attemp of a failed McCain campaign. They are trying to hold as much of the conservative coalition together by suddenly creating the left wing demon that Obama will never be.

But I do believe that this will help salvage the senatorial races in Georgia and Kentucky and possibly in Mississippi as well.


Posted by: Gator-ron | October 17, 2008 3:28 PM | Report abuse

From Joe the Plumber (the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center):
“Obama’s refunds (refundable tax credits) get smaller as tax burderns get larger, which means that while it is true that 95 percent of workers will receive some form of tax refund from Obama, they will not all receive a FULL refund, because Obama relies on phase-in and phase-our proposals to target his refunds toward the lowest-earning tax brackets.

It is these phase-out requirements that result in a general DECREASE of the refunds for people earning over $75,000 per year, according to the Center. This bracket includes nearly 40% of all Americans and nearly 20 % of total income taxes. (Think couples, filing jointly, making more than $75,000 per year).

When compared with current law, people earning $20,000-$50,000 a year will see their effective taxes—the amount of money the taxpayer actually ends up paying the government—- INCREASE , on average, under Obama’s plan.

Most households making $30,000-$75,000 (couples) will NOT see a reduction in their taxes under Obama’s plan relative to current law, according to the Center.

In fact, the only strata that will see a majority of its effective tax burden reduced under Obama are those making less than $30,000 per year and those making $75,000-$200,000 per year.”

Those under $30,000 will get REFUND checks for all those Obama “tax credits” even though they didn’t pay any taxes at all.

THIS is how Obama “spreads the wealth.”

Posted by: minghia | October 17, 2008 3:28 PM | Report abuse

McCain had some issues during the debate. Medical Issues? What we didnt know. Watch complete 2 min video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfG22Sjo2gM

See debate out takes, and highlights.
http://www.watchdebate.com

Posted by: pastor123 | October 17, 2008 3:27 PM | Report abuse

Joe the Plumber... the man with no license, liens against his property and who lies about being undecided when he's really a registered Republican.

John McCain defending an underqualified fake "Maverick" with legal issues? Why, I am suprised at this turn of events!

Posted by: iofiel | October 17, 2008 3:27 PM | Report abuse

Obama walks down the guy's street and he asks a question and now you attack him? Obama said "spread the wealth around". Sounds like Marxism to me.

So what if Joe is a GOP guy. Is it not ok to question Obama and his plan to tax America? Is the Messiah above question?

Many people may have a tax issue arise. Does that make him a crook? Maybe his accountant made an error. he's a single father and times are tough. If you are looking for tax cheats there are plenty of Dems to look at.....but I guess that is wrong.. only an EVIL GOP guy can be examined.

Posted by: tbastian | October 17, 2008 3:27 PM | Report abuse

You know - you know - it's like tying something to a cat's tail. This guy McCain -- what's his focus? It's like one thing after another. The dude has, like, zero attention span. Joe the Plumber now. Come on, man, make some kind of a plan, do something systematic.

Whatever we do now, you know, we need people who can think and act in some kind of organized manner. We gotta stop already with the sporadic haphazard lurching approach.

Look at me when I'm talking to you, son. Ah say, ah say, you wanna catch a chicken, you gotta do it systematically.

I keep pitchin em, and you keep missin em.

Posted by: pressF1 | October 17, 2008 3:26 PM | Report abuse

I think these Obama dornes will be sadly awaken on election day! The fact of the matter is that you can't trust "polls" to give a true picture of the situation.

Posted by: AverageAmerican1 | October 17, 2008 3:21 PM |
________________________________________

That is not the drum beat that McCain supporters were playing when McCain was ahead in the polls.

Typical Republicans. For it until they are against it.

Posted by: concernedaboutdc | October 17, 2008 3:26 PM | Report abuse

"McCain Stands Up For Joe"

I don't suppose Mr. Mosk was talking about
McCain doing stand up comedy.

Posted by: JohnQuimby | October 17, 2008 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Joe Six Pack, Joe Republican, Joe the Plumber, the next rabbit in McCain v16.27583 will be Joe Mama.

Posted by: hockeypuxx | October 17, 2008 3:24 PM | Report abuse

McInsane shouldn't blame Obama for putting Joe the Skin Head in the spotlight. McInsane is the doctor who created him, and Joe was looking for a confrontation when he approached Obama.

Posted by: hamishdad | October 17, 2008 3:21 PM | Report abuse

I think these Obama dornes will be sadly awaken on election day! The fact of the matter is that you can't trust "polls" to give a true picture of the situation.

There exists significant reason for people to provide misleading information to these polls. As the link below demonstrates, the Obama Impire demands harsh repercutions on anyone who expreses a dissenting view! Think Hitler or Stalin squashing any dissent! It is sad to see people get excited about supporting oppression in the form of this “post turtle” Obama.

http://www.lufkindailynews.com/search/content/news/stories/2008/10/07/secret_service.html

Say NO to Tyranny before it is too late!

Socialism/Communisim will never work in this freedom loving country!

NoBama, NoBama NoBama!

Posted by: AverageAmerican1 | October 17, 2008 3:21 PM | Report abuse

JaneBO8 wrote:
"Joe-the-Plumber, like Joe 6-Pack, and Sarah Palin are proof that McCain's judgment is impaled!"


Impaled judgement?

I resemble that statement!

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 3:19 PM | Report abuse

THE FIXTURE IS IN

NEWSWIRE--"Joe the Plumber" was mentioned more than 20 times in the final presidential debate.

In the last debate, the candidate
Who seemed the up-and-comer,
Was neither/nor of Senator,
But rather, Joe the Plumber.

He'd have it made, to ply his trade
In a kitchen-sink campaign;
No need to speak, just fix the leak
Before it all goes down the drain.

www.newsandverse.com
Light verse, ripped from the headlines

Posted by: newsandverse | October 17, 2008 3:19 PM | Report abuse

In every breast of a regular working class guy, the Joe Sixpack- Joe the Plumber type is beating a black heart of
the worst kind of capitalist profiteer.

Posted by: VMR1 | October 17, 2008 3:17 PM | Report abuse

McCain has to keep touting Joe-the-Plumber, otherwise his campaign looks even more foolish for picking a guy w/questionable credentials. Joe-the-Plumber, like Joe 6-Pack, and Sarah Palin are proof that McCain's judgment is impaled!

Posted by: JaneB08 | October 17, 2008 3:17 PM | Report abuse

It was Obama's decision to walk the neighborhood in Ohio last weekend. "Joe the Plumber" just happened to see the crowd and asked a legitimate question.

Obama messed up the answer and the media played the exchange. It was shown on television and McCain saw that Obama had said something that might benefit his campaign and utilized it.

I find it disgusting that because Obama misspoke and it was used that he and Biden in-turn mock "Joe the Plumber" and attack him.

I also find it upsetting that the media can find and report more about "Joe the Plumber" in 24 hours than they have been able to find out Obama's plans and policies if he becomes President when they had 2 years to do that. The press also has failed to examine Obama's past relationships.

The press has failed us and Obama should apologize to "Joe"!

Posted by: JoeJankovic | October 17, 2008 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: parsonsscott | October 17, 2008 3:15 PM | Report abuse

"America under Barack Obama in 2009 sounds like it will resemble a little place called Germany in 1933. Pray that we never see such a tragedy occur."

Oh yeah, the similarities are SHOCKING!

Are you friggin' serious? (I dropped the last g in honor of the person NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would want to see a heartbeat away from the presidency)

People have moved away from pointing out the differences of the candidates to simply trying to SCARE everyone from voting for Obama. Is that because McCain's policies are no better than the disaster we're in right now?

Posted by: lightgrw | October 17, 2008 3:14 PM | Report abuse

"He didn't ask for Senator Obama to come to his house."

Damn it, Senator Obama, why did you go to his house? I can't believe you are sitting outside Joe's house all day!

If you believe the left-wing media, you might think that Obama spent the day campaigning. Thank God that only Senator McCain had the courage to reveal that Obama went to Joe's house!

Posted by: BradHanson | October 17, 2008 3:13 PM | Report abuse

Joe did cheat on his taxes and He is a Republican:

http://liesliesmorelies.blogspot.com/2008/10/joe-plumber-tax-cheat.html

Posted by: Snakeheader | October 17, 2008 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Mr. McCain perpetrated a deception on the American people just like he did on Letterman. Joe may have ties to Senator McCain and he is indignant about that being discovered.

Mr McCain you were a much better candidate when you were not manufactured. You are simply too decent a guy to be playing the role you are playing.

Kristol was right about firing your campaign staff. They seem to be paid for losing you votes. It was Obama's election to lose not yours to win from the beginning. But at this point it is yours to create into a landslide and that is what you are doing.

Posted by: Gator-ron | October 17, 2008 3:08 PM | Report abuse

For this, McCain blames his opponent, Barack Obama.

"The response from Senator Obama and his campaign yesterday was to attack Joe," McCain said. "People are digging through his personal life and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house. He didn't ask for Senator Obama to come to his house. He wasn't recruited or prompted by our campaign. He just asked a question. And Americans ought to be able to ask Senator Obama tough questions without being smeared and targeted with political attacks."

_____________________________________________

McCain is a devilish lier or maybe just the Devil.

First, Joe Plumber, himself, CALLED FOR a press conference at his house following the debate.

Second, it was JOHN MCCAIN who brought him up during the debate as a political stunt.

Had JOHN MCCAIN not brought his name up before a national audience, nobody would have known who he was.

JOHN MCCAIN could have made the point of the issues that he was speaking about during the debate without bringing up any individual citizen.

JOHN MCCAIN, in essence, USED Joe Plumber.

If there is any outrage to be made of this, it should be directed to Yoda himself, John McCain.

That Joe Plumber is a tax evader, is his own personal business. However, had JOHN MCCAIN not made an issue of him, or had he, Joe Plumber, not put himself in the position to be on camera in the first place, nobody would know who he was.

Posted by: concernedaboutdc | October 17, 2008 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Matthew Mosk is misleading: "The questions coming from the Obama campaign have been more mild."

Please, Matthew Mosk, try to fool someone else. Those who've smeared Joe the Plumber have done it in order to support BHO. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if we could subpoeana their records we'd find out that the BHO campaign has been feeding tidbits to bloggers and the MSM.

Some facsistic leftwing bloggers, some fascistic members of the MSM, and the BHO campaign are all part of the same machine, with the BHO campaigning using or relying on proxies to do their dirty work.

If anyone doesn't want to spend the next 2+ years under one party authoritarian rule where any criticism of the Leader results in an attempt to destroy your reputation, we need to defeat BHO and his friends in the MSM. The best way to do that is to go out and ask BHO even tougher questions than Joe the Plumber did. Get BHO's response on video, and upload it to Youtube:

http://24ahead.com/blog/archives/008071.html

Please contact every blogger and anti-BHO pundit you can think of and urge them to get behind that plan.

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | October 17, 2008 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Sorry Sen.McCain, but you put the gentleman in play. To further aggravate things, he made himself available for interviews, which means that he volunteered to be a public person.

So, he is delinquent in his taxes and he is not a plumber. That means that the gentleman should have stayed out of the limelight, and the Senator should not have presented him as someone who may 'pay' higher taxes.

To me, the whole affair is indicative of McCain's inability to do the advance work that is necessary before he starts something. And that is a truly frightening characteristic. McCain has all the hallmarks of someone who will start a war and then try to figure out why.

Posted by: AMviennaVA | October 17, 2008 2:57 PM | Report abuse

"...Americans ought to be able to ask Senator Obama tough questions without being smeared and targeted with political attacks." - Sen. John McCain.

America under Barack Obama in 2009 sounds like it will resemble a little place called Germany in 1933. Pray that we never see such a tragedy occur.

Democrats for McCain/Palin 2008

Country first!

Posted by: NeverLeft | October 17, 2008 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Joe The "Plumber" admits: Obama's Plan Will Cut My Taxes


Here's how pathetic McCain's "Joe The Plumber" gambit is: despite the fact that Joe is a raving right-wing loon who thinks McCain is too far to the left:
.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/16/MNQ013J6JV.DTL&type=politics
.


"Joe" even admits that Barack Obama's tax cut plan will lower his taxes.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F6iVaU1TOY
.


Watch as "Joe" (reluctantly) rebuts McCain's lies in this mock mini-debate:
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejhxaNzMKM
.

Posted by: DrainYou | October 17, 2008 2:53 PM | Report abuse

Earth to John McCain. You've become completely untethered from reality. Your remarks have no connection to actual events, people, or issues. Don't let the Moon hit you in the ass on your way out of this Solar System. Buh-bye.

Posted by: merelymyopinion | October 17, 2008 2:51 PM | Report abuse

Didn't McCain mention Joe, hence bring all of this attention to him? Just more subject changing. Additionally, the business allegedly makes $250,000 a year that is not his salary so the whole tax argument is moot.

Posted by: interestingstuff | October 17, 2008 2:49 PM | Report abuse

"And Americans ought to be able to ask Senator Obama tough questions without being smeared and targeted with political attacks."

Sarah Palin is off-limits though.

Posted by: distance88 | October 17, 2008 2:44 PM | Report abuse

This whole "Joe the Plumber" thing has become ridiculous. Palin is nothing more than a dangerous idiot. I wonder if she knows how many Americans already know this about her?

Posted by: free-donny | October 17, 2008 2:41 PM | Report abuse

VOTE with the people. VOTE obama.

Posted by: edvanrensyahoocom | October 17, 2008 2:41 PM | Report abuse

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