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Obama Says Stimulus Will Redound to Private Sector

By Michael A. Fletcher
President-elect Barack Obama, seeking to quiet concerns that his economic stimulus package would lead to an unsustainable expansion of the public workforce, said today that 90 percent of the 3 to 4 million jobs created or saved by his plan would be in the private sector.

In his weekly radio address, Obama said that nearly a half-million of the new jobs would be created by investing in clean energy, while another 400,000 would be created by repairing schools, roads, bridges and other infrastructure.

"The jobs we create will be in businesses large and small across a wide range of industries," Obama said. "And they'll be the kind of jobs that won't just put people to work in the short term, but position our economy to lead the world in the long term."

Only the broad outlines of Obama's still-emerging stimulus plan have been made public. The package is expected to cost roughly $800 billion over two years. Obama has set ambitious goals for the plan, including a doubling in the production of alternative energy, modernizing 75 percent of the nation's federal buildings, making 2 million homes more energy-efficient, computerizing health records in five years and providing an immediate tax cut of up to $1,000 for most Americans.

The package also includes a package of tax cuts for small businesses and money to extend unemployment insurance, to increase food stamps, and to provide aid for cash-strapped state and local governments.

Still, it has met with concerns from members of Congress from both parties -- some of whom worry about the enormous price tag and the implications for the future size of government, and others who are concerned about the effectiveness of business tax cuts in stimulating economic growth.

The job-creation estimates cited in Obama's address are contained in a new report released today by Christina Romer, who is slated to head the White House Council of Economic Advisers, and Jared Bernstein, who has been chosen as Vice President-elect Joe Biden's chief economic adviser.

An economic stimulus package assumed to be just over $775 billion, the report estimated, would stoke economic growth by 3.7 percent by the end of next year and create or save about 3.3 to 4.1 million jobs.

The report also defends the use of tax incentives and fiscal relief to states in the package, saying that while those measures are likely to create fewer jobs than direct government spending, they can be implemented more quickly. By contrast, the report said, "there is a limit on how much government investment" that can be carried out efficiently in a short period of time.

Even with the plan in place, the report estimates, the unemployment rate at the end of next year would stand at about 7 percent -- not much improved from the 7.2 percent the federal government reported yesterday for the end of 2008.

The Labor Department also reported yesterday that the nation lost more than a half-million jobs in December, 2.6 million jobs for the full year.

Obama cited the report in underscoring the urgency of enacting a stimulus package.

"These numbers are a stark reminder that we simply cannot continue on our current path," the president-elect said. "If nothing is done, economists from across the spectrum tell us that this recession could linger for years and the unemployment rate could reach double digits."

By Post Editor  |  January 10, 2009; 10:48 AM ET
 
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Comments

Ideas for Obama, 11Jan09
By Paul Krugman

Obama’s plan does not need more of the same short or long run stimulus “tax cuts or bail outs” government investment policies.

Unemployment needs a solution that achieves effective demand and sustained growth accomplished by establishing an optional “Private Mutual Welfare Trust” (IPMWT or Trust) funded by tax/interest incentives to employees that invest 10% of their disposable income & employers that match their employees’ investments in the Trust’s Wages Fund.

The Fund having an aggregate substitution effect over the private sector is fine-tuned into welfare savings (health, education, etc) and investments (hospitals, schools, etc) to achieve full employment and prosperity without inflation and recessions.

This creates a self-regulated free market benefiting all employee-consumer participants, reduces taxes, government waste, business fringe benefits, corrects externality at a profit, and increases the GNI above 10%.

A net work of interlocking PMWTs contracts with other countries’ welfare Trusts at the price and quality mutually agreed by all parties. This Trust can be established in the first joint session of congress.

Congress can charter the Trust and pass the incentives, the rest is destiny—Democratic Capitalism.

Daniel J. Roque & Richard C. Barnum

Posted by: droque | January 14, 2009 11:16 AM | Report abuse

“Obama Says Stimulus Will Redound to Private Sector”

Whether Obama’s stimulus plan leads to a sustainable expansion of the workforce depends on the private sector’s rational expectations of making a profit. Knowing government financing will further increase the debts and tax cuts stimulating growth is dubious will make them risk averse.
Government managed economy has grown enormously sustaining a paltry growth economy on a national debt exceeding 10 trillion dollars.
If “Yes We Can”, can’t--we’re heading for a catastrophe. Obama offering more of the same (tax cuts, bail outs, etc) led us to believe the economy will not get better—it will get worse.
Obama’s plan does not need trillions of dollars or a world war to avoid a depression. Government is not the only option. Obama needs Congress to charter a “Private Mutual Welfare Trust” (PMWT) with the tax/interest incentives to finance the Trust.

Tax & interest incentives are given to employees that invest 10% of their disposable income and employers that match their employees’ investments in the PMWT’s Wages Fund (Fund).

The Fund having an aggregate substitution effect over the private sector is fine-tuned into welfare savings (health, education, etc) and investments (hospitals, schools, etc) to achieve full employment and prosperity without inflation and recessions.

This creates a self-regulated free market benefiting all employee-consumer participants, reduces taxes, government waste, business fringe benefits, corrects externality at a profit, and increases the GNI above 10%.

A net work of interlocking PMWTs contracts with other countries’ welfare Trusts at the price and quality mutually agreed by all parties. This Trust can be established in the first joint session of congress.

Investment feasibility in the Trust: IRS Collected $2.4 trillions in 2007; 20% of $10.2 trillions (total Disposable Income of American workers) is $2 trillions; whereas welfare taxes (62%) is $1.5 trillions.

Daniel J. Roque & Richard C. Barnum

Posted by: droque | January 14, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

No plan will work in our current state of greed. As has always been with any sort of "money" the higher up the ladder or more important you are the more money you make or have. I agree with this ladder type structure, it always gives you something to shoot for unless your the one on top then who cares. However, when the top of the ladder gets to heavy (with fat pockets of money) the lower rungs of the ladder start to bare the burden.
Without some type of "greed" laws the people who will see the biggest advantage are the same people that helped us to get into this predicament. Just think - If a company that made bowl sold their bowls for $10/pc can afford to pay their CEO and board multimillion dollars paychecks and their employees min wage changed their methods and sold their bowls for $5/pc. There would still be plenty of profit for the company to pay reasonably salaries to the CEO and board. Even without giving raises to employees they would benefit by not having to spend as much at the shelf - their dollar would go further. Any excess money could go back into the company for stabilization, realistically affordable healthcare, R&D, or just employee appreciation programs. Wow! It makes sense, it'll never happen.

Posted by: c22m | January 13, 2009 9:49 AM | Report abuse

We have to try something to get people back to work because each day more are getting unemployed.I hope ones in Congress support him because if not those congress people will have to deal with more problems
in their States.Now Bush and Paulson want the rest of the $350 billion bailout for more trouble banks which really shoud be going to help people with their mortgages.

Posted by: Judith5 | January 11, 2009 8:46 PM | Report abuse

Single-payer healthcare coverage would help a lot.

Posted by: rooster54 | January 11, 2009 3:32 PM | Report abuse

So far Obama's plan seems okay but not great. It's better than what is currently going on in our economy. According to the blog the job loss rate is 7.2% and with Obama's green plan it will reduce the rate to 7% a year. Thats a small decrease but it's better than nothing. As time goes on Obama and his advisors will continue to find ways to stimulate the economy with small decreases at a time. Maybe next time there will be a decrease of .3% to the 7% making it 6.7% job loss per year. Eventually we will see a differance. Obama just wants to help the economy and make the country pretty ( repairing schools, bridges and buildings). And whats wrong with creating to jobs to find clean energy? Time can only tell whether this will work or not.

Posted by: ralphbray | January 11, 2009 2:18 PM | Report abuse

The first thing that I noticed in Obama's plan is that he will create new jobs either in green business or government jobs. How will that help people get back to their old jobs? It appears that if you want to work again, you will be forced to work on building/rebuilding roads and government buildings or become a tree hugger. I didn't work my way through college to be either one. Not everyone aspires to work for the government. Not everyone is physically able to work on a chain gang. More importantly,no one should be forced to take jobs that aren't wanted. Who will be the big winner if this happens? The government of course. It's a win-win situation for them. They will get cheap labor (also known as desperate, hungry people) to work for them and then tell them how grateful they should be. This plan is just one step closer to socialism/communism and even bigger government. Hope khaki (as in government issued jump suits) is your color.

Posted by: AmericanBelle2 | January 11, 2009 9:55 AM | Report abuse

John Quimby......no problem thinking the world is our market. I just think the model we are hoping for is flawed. The global market is not simply going to buy items from the US because they are "green and US". I think we are going to see much like what happened to the auto industry: We'll mandate our products right out of the market place. Then we'll be $775B dollars further behind where we need to be.

Spend wisely....let's talk about it....let's have the promise transparency. Rushing it through without the details is not going to help anybody.

Posted by: kpod | January 11, 2009 9:53 AM | Report abuse

"No, I am sorry but the plan to make the green revolution must be market driven not mandated by the government....."

kpod - Everything you buy and eat depends on the good will of an international cartel that we protect with military force. That IS the market solution.

Who is big enough to meet America's increasing domestic energy demand for the next 200 years?

Investing in our national interest is the only way to get a long term solution.

Posted by: JohnQuimby | January 11, 2009 1:16 AM | Report abuse

Hope alone will stimulate the economy?! LOL

Posted by: JakeD | January 11, 2009 12:59 AM | Report abuse

I think Obama will, at the minimum, provide hope to our country and this alone will stimulate the economy by boosting morale and the good energy. Obama should look into the Charge Large Board Game to provide students with "experience" using credit cards. The game is great, Charlie Large, sent the creators down to my high school and the students loved the game and I must say they actually know how to use credit cards! Better off practicing in the gaming world and hey who doesn't want to UPGRADE to get their Black Card? The young entrepreneurs backed by eccentric mogul Charlie Large are geniuses and I'm sure once Obama gets wind of the game, he'll implement it. Charlie Large refers to the game as his contribution and an "educational bail out"!

Posted by: martin19spencer | January 10, 2009 10:58 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the link to the Obama weekly address.

Posted by: dotellen | January 10, 2009 10:07 PM | Report abuse

Hey! Crab All You Want!
TheBad Times ARE on the way because of bOY gEORGE, fdELD mARSHAL bUMSFLED, out sourcing and deregualtion. Our protective tarriffs weren't there against Chinese imports and reinvestent when we needed them:thanks Greenspud. RIGHT! A lot of this ISn't goingo work! BUT! Putting the stimulous into alternative energy instead of financing DoD Transformer Toys is going in the right direction. At least, we'vegot soebodyinteh white House who's lookihng at the Big Picture. Let the rest of world finance Terrorism via oil fueled vehicles. Our DoD has already done its share.

Posted by: clyde2 | January 10, 2009 9:27 PM | Report abuse

If you believe that malarkey I’ll sell you my share of the Brooklyn Bridge. The only things that get to the private sector is Defense Spending and NASA. Most of the rest of Government jobs are make work. People in the FFA earn their money.

Posted by: alshumate | January 10, 2009 8:33 PM | Report abuse

We're going to use the 775 B to jump start a "green" industry....then we'll have mandates to ensure new products use the new "green" technologies.....and then we'll try to get the rest of the globe to use them. That's when the plan will fail.....they won't be interested. We'll be left holding the bag.

No, I am sorry but the plan to make the green revolution must be market driven not mandated by the government.....

Posted by: kpod | January 10, 2009 8:24 PM | Report abuse

Where is the actual plan? How can anyone discuss this without seeing the plan.

25 billion to implment health information technology? There are only 300,000 doctors in the US so that is over $80,000 per doctor.

Groups like Kaiser have already implemented multi million dollar systems but there is no savings shown yet. (I support EMR's but question if this is where we need to focus limited resources)

Posted by: Health_Advocate | January 10, 2009 8:23 PM | Report abuse

PalmSpringsGirl:

To be fair, GWB has flubbed a few lines too ; )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 8:11 PM | Report abuse

The stimulus must be directed at something with a payback. Alternative energy, or more exactly, less expensive and cleaner energy is a must. "Free Trade" has got to go. Unregulated big business must be regulated again. NATIONALIZE the oil companies. NEVER again can we allow oil company executives to run the country like their own private knee breakers.

Posted by: FDS1000 | January 10, 2009 7:59 PM | Report abuse

JakeD:

E pluribus unum means: Out of many, one. That is unless you are Al Gore. He said a few days after he took office in 1992: Out of one, many.

Posted by: PalmSpringsGirl | January 10, 2009 7:44 PM | Report abuse

To JakeD:
E pluribus unum mean Out of many, one. However, if you are Al Gore, then it is Out of One, Many. He said that just after he took office in 1992!

Posted by: PalmSpringsGirl | January 10, 2009 7:42 PM | Report abuse

***Tax Cuts in the form of Uncle Sam Gift Card guarantees spending to the last penny. ***

Tax cuts with no strings attached will be wasted, especially a $50 increase of the net monthly pay won’t make me buy anything big. But a tax cut, or a rebate in the form of a Gift Card (a debit card similar to the Digital TV conversion government coupon) with a ninety day expiration date will do the trick. A ninety day expiration day guarantees the refund will to be used fast and for purchases only, use it or loose it. A debit card can be restricted to a select list of purchases, for instance you can't use it with any financial services, no bank deposits, no insurance, no investments, no cash advance, no payment of taxes, loans, no gambling, no mortgages etc. only for purchases. It can have a 20% consumer co-pay too for extra bang. Whatever doesn't get to be spent it stays in the US Treasury, not in a bank account. The cards can be reloaded every year until the economy will need no more stimulus. The cards can be issued staggered for year round purchases. The government will know instantly how much is spent and on what, every penny goes for purchases, or stays in the US Treasury.
Everyone has something to replace but postpones replacing it until it breaks down, especially now he thinks next month he can get it for less (deflation), well a gift card with a deadline will make the decision easier. Nothing like a deadline concentrates the mind, I got my digital TV converter the last day, but my rebate check ended up in the bank!

Posted by: Vasili | January 10, 2009 7:17 PM | Report abuse


Obama is an idiot.

If America is lucky, one of his relatives living in the White House will actually do the thinking.

Posted by: Leftie | January 10, 2009 7:01 PM | Report abuse

As Americans lose income, Uncle Sam loses tax revenues. And then Uncle Sam is expected to shell out more unemployment compensation as well ? What is it like to get sick while on unemployment, well God forbid I ever go there again, it's nasty.

The worker bees like to work but the forecast is for low pollen count this spring. I guess that's good for hay fever sufferers but not all of the Queen bees. And of course the by-product is honey so the entire food chain gets messed up.

I guess that is why politics keeps me up at night, chilvary is dead.

Posted by: truthhurts | January 10, 2009 6:39 PM | Report abuse

250.000 dollars per newly created job seems to be an expensive investment.

Also, when some of the big banks received bail-out money, they used it to purchase failed banks (e.g. Wachovia & Washington Mutual), thereby destroying many thousands of jobs, rather than creating new ones.

Posted by: dunnhaupt | January 10, 2009 6:15 PM | Report abuse

These are not so much "concerns" as they are the standard issue partisan attacks.

Posted by: FlownOver | January 10, 2009 6:09 PM | Report abuse

My heart goes out to all those CEOs who may receive less in bonuses and golden parachutes. We must also bail out the porn industry before we have hookers walking the streets for a cheap ride! Now don't forget to give congress a big pay raise and all those poor judges on welfare and pat them on the head. And give tax breaks to the big oil and companies that are losing their off shore secret accounts at UBS. Folks we have a real crisis here because there may not be enough money to bail out those foreign banks. World war three has already started over limited resouces on this planet. Now we can't take away those jobs from little children all over the world that support the rich unless we bring them to the USA. If we stop buying all those drugs the drug cartels they won't be able to buy weapons from our gun manufactures. Hell the whole world is falling apart and global warming will drown us in ocean water. Nasa has not found us a new planet that we can live on yet but what the hell if they did we would ruin it too. Now all the spoiled cry babies are worried about is the bail out. Some people are taking their cell phones with them so they can call from the grave along with their off shore bank accounts. Look out for the grave robbers. Nothing is sacred any more.

Posted by: n2avalon | January 10, 2009 6:00 PM | Report abuse

The economy pales in comparison to the importance of regaining control of the United States from Socialist rule. That is the greatest crisis facing this nation since the Civil War.

Posted by: robtay12003 | January 10, 2009 5:42 PM | Report abuse

This the CCC 70 years later. Enjoy those 4 million minimum 'wage' jobs. Thus far the only people who are doing better are BO's friends.

Posted by: KBlit | January 10, 2009 5:37 PM | Report abuse

Religion?

LOL! JakeD, what have you done?

Then, let it be known, that "God" exists as a "Trinity", with a foundation expressed in the phrase: "Yod-He-Vau-He".

Google it, check out the ENTRY section of the Tarot of the Bohemians, for MORE than most people ever actually want to know-Or, bother LEARNING! ;~)

Again! Your welcome! :-)

Posted by: SAINT---The | January 10, 2009 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Ahem: According to the Messiah:

"President-elect Barack Obama, seeking to quiet concerns that his economic stimulus package would lead to an unsustainable expansion of the public workforce, said today that 90 percent of the 3 to 4 million jobs created or saved by his plan would be in the private sector.

In his weekly radio address, Obama said that nearly a half-million of the new jobs would be created by investing in clean energy, while another 400,000 would be created by repairing schools, roads, bridges and other infrastructure."

Let's check the Math:

10% of 4 Million= 400,000 Non-Private sector Jobs CREATED.
Now, lets add up the others discussed, 900,000 More.
Combined, 1,300,000. Anticipated Created jobs.
We LOST Half a Million in December(After the Messiah was elected) ALONE!

Want Jobs?

Fine Employers of Undocumented Workers! There is @10,000,000 Jobs recovered right there!
Want cheaper Health-Care?
Pass HR:1940-Birthright Citizenship Act, make it retro-active to say: 2000, and make it possible for the Invaders to take their now Single-Nationality Former SCHIPS Receiving Children with them!(As they find work where they legally can!)

Want, a Stimulus?

Take that remaining $350 Billion, put it into the IRS,

And allow the PEOPLE who can show NEED, borrow to pay off past Due debts, and get some Money to get Moving again!

Your welcome! ;~)

Posted by: SAINT---The | January 10, 2009 5:20 PM | Report abuse

Without stopping outsourcing and fix health care nothing will work.

Many of those jobs will be without benefits. 4 million jobs will not fix much.

Posted by: billisnice | January 10, 2009 5:06 PM | Report abuse

'Republicans better realize how badly Bush has screwed them. Obama is setting himself up to be "the new FDR."'

FDR did not restart the economy with his policies, but Obama seems to want to go down the same path.

Stimulus money and jobs will not restart the economy. Obama policy will only cause it to get worse during the next four years and make the road to recovery a lot longer once he is out of office.

Enjoy. The best day of his presidency is almost here: January 20, 2009. From there it is all downhill.

Posted by: BlackGumTree | January 10, 2009 5:06 PM | Report abuse

That is the belief of the majority in the U.S. though -- I never said it was the official religion -- I don't want a theocracy.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 4:24 PM | Report abuse

JESUS CHRIST = GOD

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 3:35 PM |

That's your belief. Under the Constitution, you are entitled to it.

However, your belief is not the belief of the U.S. Officially, the U.S. has no religious beliefs, according to the U.S. Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land.


If you must know, the truth of the universe 'is that there is an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster, who created the entire universe "after drinking heavily." The Monster's intoxication was the cause for a flawed Earth. All 'evidence' for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in an effort to test Pastafarians' faith — a form of the Omphalos hypothesis. When scientific measurements, such as radiocarbon dating, are made, the Flying Spaghetti Monster "is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage."

The Pastafarian belief of heaven stresses that it contains beer volcanoes and a stripper factory. Hell is similar, except that the beer is stale, and the strippers have STDs.'

-------------------------------------------

This boys elevator doesn't stop at the top floor...

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

JESUS CHRIST = GOD

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 3:35 PM |

That's your belief. Under the Constitution, you are entitled to it.

However, your belief is not the belief of the U.S. Officially, the U.S. has no religious beliefs, according to the U.S. Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land.


If you must know, the truth of the universe 'is that there is an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster, who created the entire universe "after drinking heavily." The Monster's intoxication was the cause for a flawed Earth. All 'evidence' for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in an effort to test Pastafarians' faith — a form of the Omphalos hypothesis. When scientific measurements, such as radiocarbon dating, are made, the Flying Spaghetti Monster "is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage."

The Pastafarian belief of heaven stresses that it contains beer volcanoes and a stripper factory. Hell is similar, except that the beer is stale, and the strippers have STDs.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_monster#Beliefs

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

JakeD,

Don't worry about kevinschmidt. His strategy is:

1. Quote others on websites (ie, no original ideas)
[DOES THAT INVALIDATE THE PREMISE OR RELEVANCY OF THE QUOTES? NO. YOU ARE ILLOGICALLY SMEARING THE MESSENGER AND NOT ADDRESSING THE MESSAGE.]

2. Name Call
[SPARE US YOUR HYPOCRISY.]

3. Attack Bush even if it is not relevant to the topic of conversation
[ACTUALLY, BUSH CAUSED THE GREAT DEPRESSION 2.0, WHICH THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT. SO ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT BUSH IN THIS COMMENT THREAD IS RELEVANT.]

4. Disavow laws of physics and science
[WHAT ARE YOU RANTING ON ABOUT? GOT MEDS? USE THEM!]

5. Argue religion (which by definition isn't based on facts)
[WRONG! I ARGUED THAT THERE IS NO OFFICIAL U.S. RELIGION. PAY ATTENTION!]

6. Act like he's scored a great victory when you make an accurate assumption about his age
[HOW SO? PLEASE STOP WITH THE MUD SMEAR CAMPAIGN BECAUSE IT'S ALL OVER YOU, NOT ME.]

7. Not respond to comments to avoid revealing his own ignorance
[MORE MUD BALLS. WHAT HAVE I AVOIDED, BESIDES YOUR STUPIDITY?]

Posted by: bastilledud | January 10, 2009 3:43 PM |

[MY COMMENTS]

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 4:05 PM | Report abuse

JakeD,

My strategy is to:
1. Whine!
2. Whine!
3. Whine!
4. Whine!
5. Whine!
6. Whine!
7. Whine!

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 3:43 PM |

All I do is post the facts backed up with proof. Your comment is simply laughable.

Meanwhile, you kiddie whiners continue to lob mud balls from the school yard.

That's a great strategy that worked out perfectly for you over the past two election cycles.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 3:56 PM | Report abuse

JakeD,

Don't worry about kevinschmidt. His strategy is:
1. Quote others on websites (ie, no original ideas)
2. Name Call
3. Attack Bush even if it is not relevant to the topic of conversation
4. Disavow laws of physics and science
5. Argue religion (which by definition isn't based on facts)
6. Act like he's scored a great victory when you make an accurate assumption about his age
7. Not respond to comments to avoid revealing his own ignorance

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

$775B divided by 3.7 million new jobs equals $209,000 per job. The median income in the US is approximately $50K....what kind of jobs is he proposing we create??

Posted by: kpod | January 10, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

JESUS CHRIST = GOD

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 3:35 PM | Report abuse

Straightline:

I wouldn't waste your time on that one ; )

Posted by: JakeD

-------------------------------------------
Jake:

LOL "that one" well said.

This guy won the lottery in NY and now spends all of his time ranting on WAPO and drooling on his keyboard.

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 3:02 PM |

As opposed to you kiddies lobbing mud balls from the schoolyard.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 3:26 PM | Report abuse

Oops.

I meant to say:

So don't try to DElegitimize the progressive mandate of 2006 and 2008.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 3:24 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

Because 65 million is a tiny minority compared to the total number of Americans. Also, the words "Our Lord" (referring to none other than JESUS CHRIST) are indeed in the U.S. Constitution -- look it up if you don't believe me -- try reading the Declaration of Independence some day too.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:34 PM |

I said "God" not "our lord."


And why don't you use the entire quote? It is "In the year of our lord" not just "our lord."

"In the year of our lord" was just a fashionable colloquial expression for saying the date back in those days. It has no contextual reference to Jesus Christ, or the Christian religion. And it is most certainly no endorsement of Christianity and it is not a law making Christianity the official U.S. religion.

The fact is, there is no reference in the Constitution that claims the U.S. is a Christian nation. However, there is an Amendment that does indeed state otherwise, with which the Supreme Court agrees.

As far as 65 million people being a tiny minority is concerned, they were a majority over the Republican Dodos, and that's what counts. So don't try to legitimize the progressive mandate of 2006 and 2008.

The rest of the non-voting adults don't count. That's what they get for not exercising their Constitutional right to vote.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt (I would be more than happy to engage in a civil and polite discussion just as soon as you answer my questions already pending to you):

1) Wouldn't it be better to simply pay 4.1 million Americans $189,024.39 [each] to take a well-deserved vacation, redeemable at U.S. businesses only?

2) Who said anything about bailing out rich bankers?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

Straightline:

I wouldn't waste your time on that one ; )

Posted by: JakeD

-------------------------------------------
Jake:

LOL "that one" well said.

This guy won the lottery in NY and now spends all of his time ranting on WAPO and drooling on his keyboard.

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 3:02 PM | Report abuse

One last point about our OFFICIAL Motto: "In God We Trust" -- a Christian Nation is an oxymoron -- we are legally a secular nation, but every Founding Father knew we would not survive if Christian morals were discarded.

I also looked up the exact number who voted for pResident Evil Obama: 69,456,897 (or, only 22% of our estimated 306 million population). Of course, the 59,934,786 voting for McCain is an even "tiny-er" minority ; )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 3:00 PM | Report abuse

Looks like the Democratic Party is morphing into the "Obama Party of the Righteous." Stand aside all ye of the un-enlightened, and make way for the Messiah!

Posted by: twin_pin | January 10, 2009 2:59 PM | Report abuse

Oh and your interpretation of the intent of our founding fathers is just ...wrong

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 2:45 PM |

Says who? On what do you base your opinion besides nothing?

The facts are with me. There was no intent to found the U.S. as a Christian nation. The First Amendment proves that with "Freedom of religion." So does numerous Supreme Court decisions over the years.

The rest of your comment is just an angry rant that is truly embarrassing to yourself.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

labman57:

"My suggestion? Either get on board and help with the recovery or get the hell out of the way!"

-------------------------------------------

I'd get out of the way if the govt wasn't spending our tax dollars (which I pay a part of and will for many years to come). See that's the beauty of freedom, you, Barry O., the rest of the libs/dems and the 65 mil who voted for Barry O. are free to donate your money to whoever and whatever you want, just don't force the rest of us.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Straightline:

I wouldn't waste your time on that one ; )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

BasicInstinct:

Not only do I figuratively live with that logic, but you and I and 300 million other Americans literally LIVED because terrorists were drawn into Iraq instead of mounting more attacks on U.S. Soil. Your calling us "terrorists" for doing that displays 9/10 thinking. Let me guess: you're not older than 78 either?

kevinschmidt:

As I said, I don't need anything but to read your immature posts.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:28 PM |

So me using logic and facts is immature but your opinions asserted as facts is not? You throw mud just like a Neocon-Fascist Republican Dodo, doomed to extinction.

Also, Dubya/dick took over the White House on Jan 20, 2001, not on Sept 12, 2001.

Dubya/dick allowed and were complicit in the greatest terrorist attack on our country, 9/11.

Plus, Dubya/dick lying to start a war in Iraq so they could steal oil and U.S. tax dollars only created more terrorists, sapped our military strength, and sank the U.S. into a depression.

Dubya/dick committed treason and criminal malfeasance in the way they mismanaged the country for personal gain. They both need to be locked up for the rest of their miserable lives, which may not last long because the punishment for treason is still death.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

You mean "we the secular progressives" not "we the people" don't you? You are the angry but tiny minority.

And by the way...it is easy to see that you are not older than JakeD or at least not as mature...

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 2:12 PM |

If I am in a tiny minority, then why did the Democrats win the majority in both Houses in Congressin 2006, and why did the Democrats win the White House and an additional 29 seats in Congress in 2008?

It looks like it is you who is the angry one and the one who is immature.

I said WE THE PEOPLE and that's what I meant. I never said anything about "secular progressives." That is your delusion.

But since you imply this country is not secular, try to find the word "God" in the Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of the Land. "God" and especially Jesus and the Christian religion as a whole are nowhere to be found in our laws. We are indeed a secular nation, which was the original intent in writing the Constitution.

Posted by: kevinschmidt

-------------------------------------------

I mean the tiny minority...you know like transvestites, huffington posters, dailykooks, rabid leftist. You are by no means a centrist or bluedog democrat which by the way... is the majority of the democratic party. You know fiscally conservative church going people who don't like baby killing, queer marriage, bestiality etc.

Just because you voted for Obama does not put you in league with true Democrats. The election was was more about putting Bush out than subscribing to your leftist fruitcake ideology.

Oh and your interpretation of the intent of our founding fathers is just ...wrong

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

labman57:

I will neither "get on board" nor get out of the way.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

"Still, there are 79 million of them and only 46 million Gen X'ers to replace them. In the next few years, all this gloom and doom will be replaced by stories of how jobs can't be filled. Our prez Obama will look like a hero then, just in time for the next election. And so it goes."

Posted by: magellan1 | January 10, 2009 2:02 PM


While this is a valid point, don't forget that there are about 70 million Gen Yers coming up right behind Gen X. And a number of them are already in the work force, as the oldest of Gen Y are about 28 years old now.

Posted by: teejaybee | January 10, 2009 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Some folks have an axe to grind because their guy (and Goddess Sarah) lost in the 2008 election. Gee, it sure sucks to be you. Well, give Obama your best shot. He's a man, he can take it. If that doesn't help, you can always try primal scream therapy.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will be doing our part to repair the incredible damage done to the US economy and our standing in the world by the Bush/Cheney Administration during the past eight long, arduous years.

My suggestion? Either get on board and help with the recovery or get the hell out of the way!

Posted by: labman57 | January 10, 2009 2:40 PM | Report abuse

BasicInstinct:

There were terrorists in Iraq before we invaded. For instance, Saddam HUSSEIN was a terrorist, and supported other terrorists.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:39 PM | Report abuse

The U.S. Gov't is throwing one last trillion dollar party. But what do you expect from a body that can vote itself a pay raise (with benefits)?

Posted by: twin_pin | January 10, 2009 2:39 PM | Report abuse

JakeD:
Well: I’m a 29 year old white male, whose identical twin brother was killed in Iraq. If my brother was posted in Afghanistan, right after 9/11, I would’ve been proud of what he was assigned to do. However; he was sent to fight a faux-war, in the name of protecting blood hungry people like you. There were times my brother would come home from his tours, and wonder why he was in Iraq! Tell me JakeD, why did we invade Iraq? There were no terrorists in Iraq, BEFORE we invaded it.

Posted by: BasicInstinct | January 10, 2009 2:37 PM | Report abuse

Now you want to call yourselves "terrorists"? Fine with me, just don't include me in your number. We went there to liberate a people and prevent a madman from getting a nuclear bomb, and did just that. What do you think Saddam Hussein was doing when he gassed his own people? Giving them a big warm bear-hug? We are terrorists? Puh-leeze. Do not let your hatred for our President George W. Bush blind your thinking.

Posted by: flintston | January 10, 2009 2:37 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

Because 65 million is a tiny minority compared to the total number of Americans. Also, the words "Our Lord" (referring to none other than JESUS CHRIST) are indeed in the U.S. Constitution -- look it up if you don't believe me -- try reading the Declaration of Independence some day too.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

Hi, TonyX. What do you think about Obama's birth certificate?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Wouldn't it be better to simply pay 4.1 million Americans $189,024.39 to take a well-deserved vacation, redeemable at U.S. businesses only?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:28 PM |

The Neocon-Fascists already tried giving massive tax breaks to the upper 1%.

The problem with your cynical suggestion is this country has over 300 million people, not just 4.1 million people.

Start thinking in terms of E. Pluribus Unum WE THE PEOPLE. The plan must help everyone, not just a few.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:33 PM

___________________________________________

You mean "we the secular progressives" not "we the people" don't you? You are the angry but tiny minority.

And by the way...it is easy to see that you are not older than JakeD or at least not as mature...

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 2:12 PM |

If I am in a tiny minority, then why did the Democrats win the majority in both Houses in Congressin 2006, and why did the Democrats win the White House and an additional 29 seats in Congress in 2008?

It looks like it is you who is the angry one and the one who is immature.

I said WE THE PEOPLE and that's what I meant. I never said anything about "secular progressives." That is your delusion.

But since you imply this country is not secular, try to find the word "God" in the Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of the Land. "God" and especially Jesus and the Christian religion as a whole are nowhere to be found in our laws. We are indeed a secular nation, which was the original intent in writing the Constitution.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

9/11 was an inside job.
infowars.com

Posted by: TonyX | January 10, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

How can Obama possibly create "private sector" jobs? Is he going to force companies to hire? $3000 tax credits to hire $50,000 workers?

Keynes is a fraud and the New Deal did not work. Keep believing your fairy tales. Why not just give people FREEDOM, and stop letting Govt, Corporations and other politically favored special interests rig the market?

Posted by: pgr88 | January 10, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

BasicInstinct:

Not only do I figuratively live with that logic, but you and I and 300 million other Americans literally LIVED because terrorists were drawn into Iraq instead of mounting more attacks on U.S. Soil. Your calling us "terrorists" for doing that displays 9/10 thinking. Let me guess: you're not older than 78 either?

kevinschmidt:

As I said, I don't need anything but to read your immature posts.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

The Latin phrases Annuit cœptis "He approves (or has approved) [our] undertakings" and Novus ordo seclorum "New Order of the Ages" appear on the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:23 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:
-- I said that you are younger than 78. Try to keep up, youngster.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:07 PM |

No, you said, "there's no chance you are 78 years-old."

Again, how would you know? Tarot cards? Chrystal ball? Friend over at the NSA?

Asserting opinions as facts is nothing to keep up with.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 2:20 PM | Report abuse

JakeD wrote:
“How about every day since 2001 when we didn't have a terrorist attack on U.S. Soil?”

Response:
Wow…how can you live with that logic?

We didn’t have a terrorist attack on US soil since 2001 simply because we became the terrorists, and took it to Iraq. Why do I think we’re the terrorists? Because Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11; yet we went there and killed hundreds of thousands (kids included)! Moreover, don’t talk to me about George Bush stopping partial-birth abortions, when he sent thousands of our young kids to a faux war…and killed them! I guess, in your mind, “life begins at conception”, but ends at birth. Please!

Posted by: BasicInstinct | January 10, 2009 2:19 PM | Report abuse

For the record, E pluribus unum actually translates "Out of Many, One" : )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:18 PM | Report abuse

Wouldn't it be better to simply pay 4.1 million Americans $189,024.39 to take a well-deserved vacation, redeemable at U.S. businesses only?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:28 PM |

The Neocon-Fascists already tried giving massive tax breaks to the upper 1%.

The problem with your cynical suggestion is this country has over 300 million people, not just 4.1 million people.

Start thinking in terms of E. Pluribus Unum WE THE PEOPLE. The plan must help everyone, not just a few.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:33 PM

___________________________________________

You mean "we the secular progressives" not "we the people" don't you? You are the angry but tiny minority.

And by the way...it is easy to see that you are not older than JakeD or at least not as mature...

Posted by: Straightline | January 10, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

flintston:

"Adult progressives" don't even realize that gun and ammo sales went through the roof after November 4th ; )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:10 PM | Report abuse

BasicInstinct:

Do you think the days Bush banned partial-birth abortion, and got John Roberts or Sam Alito onto the Supreme Court were his "best" or "worst" days? How about every day since 2001 when we didn't have a terrorist attack on U.S. Soil?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:09 PM | Report abuse

"Adult progressives," I like that. Sounds very similar to what Stalin and Pol-Pot referred to themselves as. When you liberal [not "progressive"] dimocrats decide you're going to round me up for re-education, be sure to bring plenty of help because you're going to need it. My suggestion is you back away from the Whacky Baracky Koolaid and reduce your opinion of yourselves. You just ain't that smart, and neither is he.

Posted by: flintston | January 10, 2009 2:09 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

I didn't say that the oldest U.S. citizen is younger than 78 -- and I don't need tarot cards or a crystal ball to know that -- I said that you are younger than 78. Try to keep up, youngster.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 2:07 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

"Meanwhile, the adult progressives are in charge. Get used to it."

-----------------------------------------

Now you reveal the true motivation for all of this, power. The only person I want to be in charge of is myself.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:56 PM |

That sounds just like Dubya/dick talking.

WE THE PEOPLE, who are similarly motivated as I am, elected Obama and the Democrats, not you, thank God!

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

------------------------------------------

What are you talking about? So you do want to be in charge of other people, or do you want other people to be in charge of you? I don't understand. And you never answered whether the laws of physics/thermodynamics/economics apply or not.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 2:07 PM | Report abuse

I see that the reluctant Repukes are still here trying fist their chests. Let’s get one thing straight: Obama’s worst day as President, would be 100 times better than George Bush’s best.

With that said; I have every confidence in Obama, and his ability to get our Economy under control. Before any Republican can open his/her mouth about a President that hasn’t even taken office yet, they need to take some bleach and ammonia to their Party (to cleanse it from the years of corruption). The sad thing is; when the Economy gets back on track, the nay-naysayers will be reaping the benefits…what a shame.

Posted by: BasicInstinct | January 10, 2009 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Because there's no chance you are 78 years-old.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:58 PM |

And your proof of that statement is what? Tarot cards? Chrystal ball?

Last time I looked, the oldest U.S. citizen is much older than 78.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

All the good manufacturing jobs have already been shipped to China, Mexico and Indonesia. What America is going to compete with child labor in Indonesia or prisoners salaries in China? That's called "free trade," my friends. America is just becoming equalized to the economic levels of Mexico and Indonesia. Better get use to it.

Posted by: sofla |

I must disagree with you on this. It's lousy, but it's not free trade, especially with China. China, but dictating the value of the Yuan, rigs the game. That's not free trade.

I will note one thing. David Recardo (the guy who came up with free trade, at least from a rigorous economic standpoint) I don't think ever asked the question of what happens when one guy ends up with all the money.

I do believe in free trade. I believe that free trade with Canada and Mexico have been mutually benefitial. I would have no problem with having free trade with any of the western European nations, nor with Japan, Korea, or Taiwan. The mainland, that's a different story. Besides, the mainland I don't trust to use the rule of law.

But summed up, free trade works if you have no tarrifs AND no dictated value of currency, etc., etc. China may have no tariffs, but by dictating the value of their currency they have non-tariff trade barriers. Anyway, not free trade.

Posted by: bdstauffer | January 10, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Obama and his team apparently know something that virtually everyone else has forgotten. Up until this crisis, those in the know were wringing their hands over who would fill the jobs left vacant by the retirement of the "Baby Boomers".

Sure, some boomers won't retire because they can't due to the financial meltdown. Some won't retire because they don't want to. Others will leave jobs and not be replaced.

Still, there are 79 million of them and only 46 million Gen X'ers to replace them. In the next few years, all this gloom and doom will be replaced by stories of how jobs can't be filled. Our prez Obama will look like a hero then, just in time for the next election. And so it goes.

Posted by: magellan1 | January 10, 2009 2:02 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

"Meanwhile, the adult progressives are in charge. Get used to it."

-----------------------------------------

Now you reveal the true motivation for all of this, power. The only person I want to be in charge of is myself.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:56 PM |

That sounds just like Dubya/dick talking.

WE THE PEOPLE, who are similarly motivated as I am, elected Obama and the Democrats, not you, thank God!

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

Because there's no chance you are 78 years-old.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:58 PM | Report abuse

The bad thing about gov't sponsered economic stimulus is that much like a drug addiction, you always need a larger dose the next time to get the same effect as the last time.

I will give John Maynard Keynes some defense. What Mr. Keynes advocated doing was raising taxes in good times to pay for the money you borrowed in bad times to make it through. Gov't borrowed during the bad times, but never raised taxes, or more importantly, cut spending during the good times. The politicians only raised spending. Sometimes there were tax cuts during bad times, but never tax increases during good times.

Sadly, gov't is like a cancer. It just keeps growing and growing.

Posted by: bdstauffer | January 10, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

I am a registered Independent and older than you.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:51 PM |

I never divulged my age, so how would you know if you were older than me or not?

I guess that makes your stupid comment a lie.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

"Meanwhile, the adult progressives are in charge. Get used to it."

-----------------------------------------

Now you reveal the true motivation for all of this, power. The only person I want to be in charge of is myself. Hard to believe that once upon a time George Washington actually reluctantly served as president.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:56 PM | Report abuse

flintston:

That's why it won't happen -- seriously, $775,000,000,000 (billion) equals $2,583.33 for 300,000,000 (million) Americans. I would presume after one short year that most Americans would finally wake up and realize how much the fecderal government actually drains from the economy ; )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:54 PM | Report abuse

One big problem is the drooled economic model of "globaliztion".
That moron system goes AGAINST the natural laws of adaptation, and environmental adaptation/survival. Big global wareouses having a big infection means big health and economic problems, for instance. And, oterwise, is a modern form of EXPORTED SLALVERY, an economic andsocial model that simply CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED. What's bad is bad for everyone there, and it's just begining to be realized.

Posted by: ElMugroso | January 10, 2009 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Mike85, you are spot-on. The dimocrats love to crow about the New Deal. The New Deal's been dragging this country down since the day it started. It's time to end it, not continue it. Whacky Baracky is just going prolong the pain.

Posted by: flintston | January 10, 2009 1:45 PM |

---------------------

'Say what? We know that rewriting history is a favorite conservative pastime. America is Christian country. Slavery was good for black people. Bush was never a real conservative. Saddam was in cahoots with al-Qaida. And on it goes.

The campaign to discredit Keynes (which is directly traceable to the Heritage Foundation) is a new and rather audacious fiction—one that leaves both progressive and conservative economists as gobsmacked and sputtering as scientists get when you bring up "intelligent design." And the factual basis for it is, if anything, even more specious.

Paul Krugman addresses both the Depression and the example of Japan in his new book, "The Return of Depression Economics." According to his telling of the tale, in both cases the affected economies strengthened as long as the government continued to infuse capital into them; but bobbled when there was enough improvement that the budget hawks could get some political traction. When the spending flagged, so did the recovery. In Japan, bold steps alternating with repeated failures of nerve created a liquidity trap that stagnated the country's economy through most of the 1990s.

Keynes' prescription has worked everywhere it's been tried—as long as governments acted boldly and quickly enough. It's not medicine that works if you take it in half-doses, or quit before the course of treatment is finished. In fact, doing it with less than full commitment can actually make the situation worse.'

http://www.ourfuture.org

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:52 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

Who said anything about bailing out rich bankers? I was against that, and so were most Republican Congressmen. While you claim to be an "adult progressive" keep in mind that I am a registered Independent and older than you.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:51 PM | Report abuse

JakeD, if we could do that with an option to renew it for every subsequent year that the taxpayers see fit to do so, I'd go along with it. We'd see a huge reduction in government interference in our lives and people would have huge new amounts of money to spend, ipso-facto, economy problem solved! What's next? Give me something that's a real challenge.

Posted by: flintston | January 10, 2009 1:51 PM | Report abuse

That's absolutely frightening.

He admits to plans to add hundreds of thousands of government employees in the middle of an economic downturn, and the "watchdog" media is reporting as good news that most of the hoped for jobs will be in the private sector.

But the government has much more control over producing their bureaucratic positions, while merely hoping for the private sector jobs.

So in other words, he's promising at least 300K new bureaucrats, and he hopes for millions of private sector jobs to help pay for those public sector jobs.

Nice plan.

Posted by: RayG01 | January 10, 2009 1:50 PM | Report abuse


People need to help themselves. Who do you think is doing the helping? Take your philosophy to the extreme and no one would do anything and we'd all starve. Americans need to stop whining and start working as hard as they can all the time.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:38 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

Read the article again. This plan is "limited" to saving 4.1 million jobs.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:36 PM |

--------------------------

Those blue collar people spend money, not save it. That money they spend will help out other people too.

This is not the same as bailing out rich bankers who don't do anything except screw up the economy and squirrel away all the bailout money and give themselves multimillion dollar bonuses and save their money off shore to evade taxation.

Besides, this is just the beginning. Spending money on the lower classes works, giving tax breaks to the wealthy does not work.

Here is the proof that Obama is indeed on the right track:

http://tinyurl.com/7nekrl

So sorry you cynical Republican Dodo whiners don't get it. See you in a generation, if you don't go extinct first.

Meanwhile, the adult progressives are in charge. Get used to it.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Mike85, you are spot-on. The dimocrats love to crow about the New Deal. The New Deal's been dragging this country down since the day it started. It's time to end it, not continue it. Whacky Baracky is just going prolong the pain.

Posted by: flintston | January 10, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

"You are delusional, so I won't ask you to provide a rational for your absurd comment. Please stop drinking so early in the day.

Besides, dick Cheney already hired Halliburton for the hole digging job. They dug out the hole in Dubai and filled it back up with billions of stolen U.S. Dollars."

So the laws of physics/thermodynamics/economics do or don't apply? Which is it?

If that's true about Cheney, that's wrong as well, I wasn't defending anything the current administration has done. If you're going to respond to a comment, address what I've written.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

I am impressed about how easy it is to jettison the Constitution for this brief respite from a government-induced depression. Do you Americans have any idea what you are doing to yourselves? Are you so easily convinced to give up your liberties for this quick fix (that won't even work)?

"Government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us."


Posted by: csforst | January 10, 2009 1:42 PM | Report abuse

flintston:

A much better plan is to give a one year federal tax holiday to every American (no gas tax, withholding, FICA / Social Security, etc.).

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Obama's Franklin Roosevelt style stimulus plan will be nothing but a waste of government money. Building the Democrats Green Obsession, computerizing medical records and repairing infrastructure will employ only a very few people, in comparison to its costs, and those jobs will only be temporary. It will do little or nothing to really stimulate the economy. One needs only to read about the Great Depression to learn that Roosevelt's New Deal actually prolonged the depression, rather than ending it.

Obama's advisers are politicians who haven't a clue as to how the economy works. Before he throws away our money he needs to find a plan that will actually stimulate the economy, not push us further into depression.

Posted by: mike85 | January 10, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

liberal/democrat rationale: the laws of physics/thermodynamics/economics don't apply when we do something!!

Yay! Let's pay some people to dig a hole and some other people to fill it back in. What a solution.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:23 PM |

-------------------

You are delusional, so I won't ask you to provide a rational for your absurd comment. Please stop drinking so early in the day.

Besides, dick Cheney already hired Halliburton for the hole digging job. They dug out the hole in Dubai and filled it back up with billions of stolen U.S. Dollars.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

bastilledude:

Amen! (of course, if my wife can stop working in exchange for $189,024.39, I would go for that too ; )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

"The plan must help everyone, not just a few."


People need to help themselves. Who do you think is doing the helping? Take your philosophy to the extreme and no one would do anything and we'd all starve. Americans need to stop whining and start working as hard as they can all the time.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:38 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

Read the article again. This plan is "limited" to saving 4.1 million jobs.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Unless I did the math wrong, $775 billion divided by 4.1 million Americans = $189,024.39 each. My wife and I live quite comfortably on less than that ; )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:34 PM | Report abuse

Why not just make it a million-bazillion dollar package? People, these numbers don't mean anything when all BO is doing is printing more money that he doesn't have to pay back, the taxpayers do. You goofballs are going to wake up one day and realize that the gravy train can not go on forever, the taxpayer will eventually get tapped-out. Hopefully, the taxpayers will band together and just refuse to pay anymore. We need a tax revolution in this country...now's an excellent time!

Posted by: flintston | January 10, 2009 1:34 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

Wouldn't it be better to simply pay 4.1 million Americans $189,024.39 to take a well-deserved vacation, redeemable at U.S. businesses only?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:28 PM |

The Neocon-Fascists already tried giving massive tax breaks to the upper 1%.

The problem with your cynical suggestion is this country has over 300 million people, not just 4.1 million people.

Start thinking in terms of E. Pluribus Unum WE THE PEOPLE. The plan must help everyone, not just a few.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:33 PM | Report abuse

Good catch, patdolly7768 : )

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:30 PM | Report abuse

President-elect Barack Obama while rehearsing for his speech on his economic stimulus proposal, started to joke and adlib not realizing his microphone was live. Stopthepresses was able to obtain a copy of that adlib speech. Read it at,
http://stopthepresses2.blogspot.com/2009/01/obama-stumbles-tells-truth.html

Posted by: patdolly7768 | January 10, 2009 1:29 PM | Report abuse

ALL ILLEGALS NEED TO GO!!!

NOTHING MORE!!! NOTHING LESS!!!

Posted by: buzzm1 | January 10, 2009 1:23 PM |

Undocumented immigrants didn't screw up the country, the blame falls squarely on the Neocon-Fascist Republican Dodos.

If anyone has to go then let's kick them out first. I suggest we rendition them to Europe so they can all face the war crimes tribunals.

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:28 PM | Report abuse

kevinschmidt:

Wouldn't it be better to simply pay 4.1 million Americans $189,024.39 to take a well-deserved vacation, redeemable at U.S. businesses only?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Rich94061:

Wouldn't it be better to pay 4.1 million American $189,024.39 to take the time off work and go back to school or even just take a well-deserved vacation?

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Economic Benefits of Various Stimulus Provisions

Food stamps and aid to the poor is first.
Tax cuts for the wealthy is last:

http://tinyurl.com/7nekrl

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

ALL ILLEGALS NEED TO BE FORCED TO LEAVE!!!

ILLEGALS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO BE IN OUR UNITED STATES, ILLEGALLY OBTAINING JOBS; JOBS THAT RIGHTFULLY BELONG TO AMERICAN WORKERS!!!

TELL YOUR DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATORS TO MANDATE E-VERIFY, FOR ALL EMPLOYEES, FOR ALL EMPLOYERS!!!

SUPPORT THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN!!!

THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN WILL PROVIDE JOBS FOR MANY OF THE 10 MILLION UNEMPLOYED AMERICAN WORKERS AND IT WON'T COST ANYTHING!!!

Illegals, using forged, and/or stolen identities, have illegally obtained up to 8.7 million jobs; these are jobs that Americans will do, jobs in food processing, jobs in manufacturing; these are jobs that rightfully belonged to American workers in the first place.

MANDATE E-VERIFY, FOR ALL EMPLOYEES, AND FOR ALL EMPLOYERS, AND IT WILL GENERATE 8.7 MILLION JOBS FOR UNEMPLOYED AMERICAN WORKERS!!!

THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN WILL SAVE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS 300 BILLION DOLLARS EACH, AND EVERY, YEAR (the estimated annual cost of illegal immigrants to American taxpayers)!!!

SUPPORT THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN!!!

REMEMBER, IT WON'T COST ANYTHING!!!


ENFORCE OUR LAWS AGAINST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!!

THERE WILL BE NO AMNESTY!!!

OUR ACCEPTABLE IMMIGRATION REFORM

#1. Make Illegal Entry a Felony Permanently Barring Citizenship
#2. Secure Our Borders with our National Guard!!!
#3. Mandate E-Verify for ALL Employees!!!
#4. Cut Off ALL Public Assistance to Illegals and Their Children!!!
#5. Stop the Underground Economy!!!
#6. End Birthright Citizenship for Illegals!!!
#7. End Chain Migration!!!
#8. Make English our Official Language!!!
#9. Cut Off Federal Funds to Sanctuary Cities!!

ALL ILLEGALS NEED TO GO!!!

NOTHING MORE!!! NOTHING LESS!!!

Posted by: buzzm1 | January 10, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

liberal/democrat rationale: the laws of physics/thermodynamics/economics don't apply when we do something!!

Yay! Let's pay some people to dig a hole and some other people to fill it back in. What a solution.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

Foreign aid, and our 730, or so, foriegn bases, cost on the order of a trillion dollars, or so.

As a cost savings, shut down about 90% of these foreign bases.

Posted by: buzzm1 | January 10, 2009 1:21 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 10. This is a partisan program that's designed to promote the Democratic agenda.

No. Almost every businessperson in America—including the conservative ones—are stepping forward in support of the stimulus package. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is on board with it. So (unsurprisingly) are most of the building trades and engineering groups who stand to prosper with a new round of infrastructure spending. The current economy is hurting everyone, regardless of political affiliation—and most Americans agree that it's time for the government to step in and get things going again.

 TAKE ACTION 

Write your member of Congress to ask for passage of a bold economic recovery plan now.

And Yes. I've written before about the way this kind of investment in the health and well-being of the middle class can, in the end, transform long-held conservative beliefs about how the economy should work. A stimulus package that works will prove that government can do important things that no other entity can do; that it can act effectively in the public interest; and that there's actually such a thing as a national common good that deserves to be protected. In short, it will reaffirm progressive values in a way that's irrefutable, and will earn the enduring respect of the country.

www.ourfuture.org

End

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:18 PM | Report abuse

There are a number of inevitable realities in a situation like this one. There are going to be a lage range of opinions on the total amount and the value of different parts of the recovery plan. Any plan that gets adopted will be imperfect. For all the arguments before and after, it will be difficult to say with certainty how well it does or does not work. It is no surprise that there are arguments. The question remains what kind of a majority Obama will be able to get for the eventual bill and whether a substantial number of Republicans will end up seeing political advantage in defining themselves as the party of doing nothing at a time of crisis. That approach did not work out too well for Elizabeth Dole on the last go round.

Posted by: dnjake | January 10, 2009 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 9. This whole Keynesian thing has been totally disproved. It didn’t work during the Depression. It didn’t work for Japan in the 1980s.

Say what? We know that rewriting history is a favorite conservative pastime. America is Christian country. Slavery was good for black people. Bush was never a real conservative. Saddam was in cahoots with al-Qaida. And on it goes.

The campaign to discredit Keynes (which is directly traceable to the Heritage Foundation) is a new and rather audacious fiction—one that leaves both progressive and conservative economists as gobsmacked and sputtering as scientists get when you bring up "intelligent design." And the factual basis for it is, if anything, even more specious.

Paul Krugman addresses both the Depression and the example of Japan in his new book, "The Return of Depression Economics." According to his telling of the tale, in both cases the affected economies strengthened as long as the government continued to infuse capital into them; but bobbled when there was enough improvement that the budget hawks could get some political traction. When the spending flagged, so did the recovery. In Japan, bold steps alternating with repeated failures of nerve created a liquidity trap that stagnated the country's economy through most of the 1990s.

Keynes' prescription has worked everywhere it's been tried—as long as governments acted boldly and quickly enough. It's not medicine that works if you take it in half-doses, or quit before the course of treatment is finished. In fact, doing it with less than full commitment can actually make the situation worse.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 8. It’s wrong to bail out spend-thrift states. Let them stimulate their own damned economies.

Please. Haven't we all had a lifetime bellyfull of tax revolutionaries and drown-the-government-in-the-bathtub crazies? I swear...can't live with 'em, can't just shoot 'em....

States aren't in trouble because they overspent their allowances. Almost every state constitution in the country requires that the government balance its budget every single year. You want fiscal sanity? Anybody who's put in their time in state government knows all about it. They've made the hard choices, and faced the consequences, too.

The problem is that the recession has undercut state tax revenues to the point where these governments can no longer afford to cover their obligations—some of which (like bonds) were taken on years ago, when times were better. Commitments that were fiscally prudent by any measure back then are wiping them out now. Budgets that were balanced and sound when they were first outlined a couple years ago are impossible monsters today.

And, unlike the federal government, the states can't deficit spend their way out of it. That's why they need federal help.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Free trade, wild govement spending, wasted unnecessary war spending and the liberal media are combining to destroy the American experiment which is careening down the slope at a rapid speed ending up in a huge crash that will have terrible consequences for our financial status, freedoms and sovereignty.

Posted by: mascmen7 | January 10, 2009 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 7. We need stimulus now—and tax cuts are the only way to get the money out there fast enough.

Not really, no. Much of the infrastructure spending in the recovery package will be targeted at projects that are “shovel ready”—the ones that are planned, approved, and sitting on the shelf ready to go as soon as there's money to fund them. Some of these could start generating jobs as early as April or May.

Some of this money will also be aimed at covering state budget deficits. That money will also be spent immediately on things like health care, child-care programs and other underfunded state services that employ large numbers of people.

That's a lot of direct funding that will put people to work quickly—quite likely, faster than giving people tax cuts and letting them trickle out through the economy.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 6. Large-scale government investment would inevitably turn into an orgy of waste, fraud and abuse.

True—but only if we let conservatives run the show.

The fact is that all human endeavors—from running a household to running a nation—entail a fair amount of waste, fraud and abuse. Bad decisions get made. Greed gets the better of people. Not everybody is as honest as we'd wish them to be.

But in spite of that truth, nobody in history can top the Americans when it comes to planning and executing successful large-scale investment projects. (A thousand years from now, that's what they'll be saying about us: Not always smart about foreign policy, but man, could those people think big—and they usually pulled it off, too.) In our happier past, good management, careful oversight, and clear accountability have always gone a long way toward preventing really big problems, and ensured that we got the most for our collective buck.

Unfortunately, if we've learned anything about conservatives at this late date, it's that they'll defang or dismantle these mechanisms every chance they get. They think rules are for lesser mortals, oversight is a form of Big Brother-style oppression, and accountability is for people who can't afford lobbyists and lawyers. I don't think anyone would even try argue any more that when it comes to waste, fraud, and abuse, conservatives are the hands-down experts.

What's ironic is that they're now offering edifying moral guidance to the rest of us on the subject. All you can do is point and giggle at the stupefying hypocrisy of it all.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:12 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 5. When you want to stimulate the economy, tax cuts always beat government spending hands-down.

Another conservative fantasy that disintegrates on contact with reality.

The chart that shows the effectiveness of various forms of government stimulus, based on recent attempts, is here. (Conservatives will be infuriated to learn that food stamps come out on top, generating $1.73 for every dollar spent. Infrastructure investments come in a respectable third. The bottom half of the chart is wall-to-wall tax cut schemes.)

The problem with tax cuts is that people don't spend them in ways that get the economy moving. The Wall Street Journal reports that only 10 to 20 percent of the money remanded to taxpayers in the 2008 tax rebate actually got spent. The other 80 to 90 percent ended up in people's personal savings, were used to pay off creditors, or were simply absorbed by inflation and higher living costs.

Knowing this, we're a bit dismayed Obama is proposing to sink as much as 40 percent of his stimulus package into tax cuts. That's too much, if you ask us. But at least they're targeted at the middle class—people who are more likely to spend that money here in the U.S., rather than ship it off to investments abroad.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 4. The worst thing we can possibly do is raise taxes. Or borrow the money, God forbid.

More misplaced priorities.

As for taxes: Obama's already told us, without apologies to anyone, that he plans to raise taxes on people making over $250,000 a year—the people who've profited most from our current high levels of inequality. Practically, it makes sense to raise taxes on the affluent, since they're increasingly the only ones left who actually have any money. And morally, it's only fair that those who've gained the most from conservative mismanagement of the economy (regardless of their own political leanings) should be the first to pay the bills for it.

As for borrowing: Don't look now, but the whole planet is reeling from financial problems as least as big as ours. Even in the midst of this colossal fiscal mess we're in, if you're an individual, business, or government with excess capital to store somewhere, the USA is still the safest place on earth to park it.

They're so eager for our American brand of low-risk investment that they're even willing to lend their cash to us at interest rates that are very close to zero (and may actually turn out to be less than zero, once you add in inflation). If someone offered you the chance to borrow massive amounts of money without paying interest, you'd do it, right? Well, that money's already sitting on the table, just waiting for us to put it to work jump-starting our economy again. We'd be fools not to take it.

www.ourfurture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 3. It's more important to balance the budget. Fix that, and the rest will take care of itself.

Read history much? Herbert Hoover is history's poster boy for the idea that balancing the budget during a recession is the best way known to turn it into a full-on depression. And that wasn't a one-off: FDR repeated the lesson in 1937, when he succumbed to the pleas of budget-hawk conservatives and tried to balance the budget—a move that put the brakes on what had, until then, been a solid recovery.

Looking forward, this year's numbers also show the case clearly. Economists are already estimating that spending by individuals and businesses will be off by $300 to $500 billion in 2009. The upshot of this will be millions of lost jobs, which in turn will mean even lower spending and more job losses next year as the country accelerates toward depression.

The only way to halt this slide is for the government to step in and fill the hole with an additional $300 billion-$500 billion of its own spending—and to spend that money on investments that will create as many jobs as possible. The longer we wait, the more government spending it will ultimately take to pull us out of this—and the less able we'll be to muster that much cash.

Balanced budgets are important, but not as important right now as making sure every American has a paycheck they can count on. We can't afford to sacrifice the fate of the entire country to this one economic ideal.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 2. If we can't afford (insert pet project here), we certainly can't afford this.

Yes, we can. What we really can't afford is a huge recession that undercuts the tax base. That's a vicious cycle that will make it increasingly harder to dig out the longer this goes on. The Congressional Budget Office projects that the current slowdown will cost the federal government $166 billion in lost tax revenues in 2009—a number that could easily get even larger in coming years if we fall into a real depression. If we get on that trendline, we could lose a trillion dollars in government revenues by the end of Obama's first term. We need to invest what we have while we still have it if we hope to have a strong economy going forward.

This argument is based on the limited view that wealth is mainly generated by loaning or borrowing at interest—a common enough assumption among financial people over the past 30 years. A more progressive view is that real wealth is generated by labor, combined with access to resources required for production. Putting people to work creates wealth. So does ensuring that our current failing energy regime is replaced as rapidly as possible with one that's infinitely renewable and that we will finally be in full control of. And so do other kinds of infrastructure investments, which form the footing on which a new round of businesses can rise and thrive.

Businesses have always invested their capital to create more capital. The best parts of Obama's proposal involve getting the government to do the same thing. Conservatives are resisting this because don't believe that there's such a thing as the common wealth—which is how they've rationalized their plundering of our common assets. We need to make it absolutely clear that we do believe in the common wealth—and that their assaults on everything that allows America to generate national wealth are going stop, right here and right now.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Neocon-Fascist Myth 1. The proposed recovery package is too big.

False. Most progressive economists agree (and Paul Krugman is downright emphatic) that it's going to take a minimum of a trillion dollars of well-placed investment to pull our economy out of this ditch. This is no time for half-measures, blue-ribbon committees, pilot projects, or trial balloons: this is a life-or-death crisis that requires immediate and massive intervention.

CAF Senior Fellow Bernie Horn puts it this way: "The American economy is huge and it’s at a standstill. It’s like a motionless 100-car freight train—or one going backwards slowly. A small locomotive simply can’t pull it forward. We need an engine large enough to work, one that can create millions of jobs. If anything, a $775 billion 2-year plan may be too small rather than too big."

Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research echoed this same thing on Rachel Maddow's show last Tuesday night. It's got to be big. And it's got to be now. Anything too small—or too late—and the American economy will be at serious risk of stagnating the same way Japan's did in the 1990s.

www.ourfuture.org

Continued

Posted by: kevinschmidt | January 10, 2009 1:07 PM | Report abuse

90% to the private sector? Either Obama hasn't learned a thing from the last eight years, or he's the next "used car salesman" politician trying to ram the corporatist agenda down our throats. Will this be just be another cleverly disguised welfare package for corporatists and the affluent? If so, the destruction of the middle class will be complete.

The private sector cannot be trusted with our tax money - didn't anyone learn this from the last 8 years? FDR's successful reforms of the Great Depression showed that Government must be intimately involved in the recovery. Government CAN do the job efficiently - as the largest not-for-profit "corporation" in the world SHOULD be doing it. The corruption and inefficiency is from the private sector - CEO bonuses, "Ponzi-schemes", "service economy", Wall Street greed and profiteering multinational corporations. People...WAKE UP!

The Federal Govt has a constitutional obligation to protect the people from enemies "foreign and domestic". Trickle-down corporatist economics is the problem - and it DOESN'T WORK! How much more proof do we need? I think Pres. Obama must reconsider - this stimulus should be targeted STRICTLY for the Feds creating government jobs and help for the middle class. I'm fed up working two jobs so that my taxes can be spent on Reaganist "trickle-down" pro-business policies.

Posted by: pcw5150 | January 10, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

The week McCain was nominated in St. Paul our church organist played Dixie at the end of Mass which was the song President Lincoln asked to be played after he heard General Robert E. Lee had surrendered at Appomattox, Virginia. Now the organist told me that the USA is going to add another S to its name for socialist. The United Socialist States of America, USSA, led by our president, Comrade Obama. David Axelrod, his chief helper worked on communist newspapers from his youth.

Posted by: mascmen7 | January 10, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

What concerns me, is just how many of these job will end up going to illegal aliens. Who will in turn send much of this tax payer money back to their mother countries.

Posted by: morphylius | January 10, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Obama is not going to create new jobs by pushing the Democrats Green Obsession, by computerizing medical records or by repairing infrastructure. These endeavers are extremely capital intensive and none of them would employ many people and the ones who were employed would find that their jobs were only temporary.

In order to stimulate the economy he must find ways to stimulate many economic sectors at once, such as: manufacturing, government, retail, and service industries. His proposal doesn't touch on any of these sectors.

He would do much more good to the US by simply sending taxpayers gift cards that were redeemable only at stores and businesses, but not redeemable for cash. This would force Americans to spend the stimulus money they receive and would spur all forms of business and manufacturing.

Posted by: mike85 | January 10, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse


The best news in all of this is that 90 percent of the expenditures are intended to go into the pockets of the private sector.

Yet a Unionist friend of mine raises the point that so many State and local government tax coffers have for years been getting shorted by people misclassifying employees as sub-contractors. This was particularly problematic in industries -- such as construction and home-building -- which are dependent on and exploitative of illegal alien labor.

It's essential that at the same time the government floods the contracting business with money, there must be stringent enforcement of the rules -- and perhaps we need new and stronger rules -- on classification of employees and contractors. The State and local governments need their fair share of this massive distribution of future debt, but in the interests of fairness, their fair share needs to come out of the fair taxes paid by fairly-classified employees, who will also be covered by insurance such as Worker's Compensation and requirements of maintain a safe and non-discriminating workplace that will exclude only those who have no legal right to work in the USA.

But as to bringing our 1950s technologies into the 21st Century, that's something we have to do. Ending our dependence on foreign oil, while protecting the environment and our own health, that's something we have to so.

Let's go for it!

Just make sure that the money only goes to the legitimate workers, and that their taxes on their hard work is what re-funds struggling State and local governments. This isn't "trickle down", and it's not "trickle up". This is "bounce around", because the money goes to the bottom -- to aid the struggling voters -- and then part of it rises back up but only to the level of State and local governments, as Federal taxes are decreased.

Thanks for taking the Radical Centrist approach, Mr Obama!

Congress, get on board!

-Thomas Hardman
Rockville, MD

Posted by: thardman | January 10, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

We are supposed to get a 5 year plan but we are getting a half year plan. The Soviet Union was good at 5 year plans so good that we were terrified of them for a generation. I do not think the current Russian aggressors see anything to be afraid of in the coming half year plan except for a possible meltdown of their investment portfolio which is mostly in dollars and Euros. The greatest effect of the Bamster's plan is that the dollar will probably collapse under the weight of wildly excessive spending. Be prepared to barter for your food.

Posted by: mascmen7 | January 10, 2009 12:55 PM | Report abuse

When the plan does not work who is there to blame? Problem-10 Percent of the jobs(30 to 40k) will be government jobs--just what we need; more people to pay for doing nothing that contributes to the GDP. Problem, when the job building a bridge or school is complete what does the person, company, etc do? Problem, you can rebuild all schools, give them cray computers, fastest internet in the universe and it will not help. Most cities have lost a value for learning and education and there is no correlation between money spent and smarts. Smarts have gone down since Federal government took over education. A trillion here and a trillion there, before you know it you are talking about real money.

Posted by: Mindboggle | January 10, 2009 12:54 PM | Report abuse

Watch as Obama and the Democrats pass laws to support the unions and create 600,000 new bureaucratic jobs. We will be witness to the creation of the largest government tata in history. The Democrats want to pass the "Free Choice Act". A great name. This does away with the secret ballot to vote on unionizing companies. Secret ballots is the American way and allows workers to vote their conscience.

The Unions are anxious to have this passed so they can watch how the people are voting. This will allow them to break the arms and other body parts of the owners of the hands who do not vote as instructed by the Union.

Anyone doubt if the work relief projects will be unionized?

The added overhead of union workers plus the salaries of the "new" government jobs will be pouring money down a rat hole.

We are close to a point where foreign countries are going to stop backing our debt. When that happens the government will keep the printing presses running and trillions of worthless dollars will delute the market. How about $50,000.00 for a toaster? Welcome to the Socialist State of America.

Posted by: Bubbette1 | January 10, 2009 12:53 PM | Report abuse

What do they say about "old dogs" and "new tricks"? I learned a new word today (although I still wonder if Obama used it):

re·dound

1. To have an effect or consequence: deeds that redound to one's discredit.

2. To return; recoil: Glory redounds upon the brave.

3. To contribute; accrue.

[Middle English redounden, to flow abundantly, from Old French redonder, from Latin redundre, to overflow; see redundant.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 12:48 PM | Report abuse

I just read the following regarding how many jobs will be created or "saved" by the Obama stimulus program. First the number was 2 million, then 2.5 mil, that was changed to 3 mil, then again to 3.3. mil and now it's up to 4.1 million jobs.
That's great, but can anyone tell me how you realistically account for a job "SAVED" as opposed to a new job. You can count a new job by the increased payroll and payroll taxes but if I still have my job how do you know it was "saved"? If there is no absolute way to account for these "saved" jobs then the administration can always claim they made the number, whether or not it's true. Why not just talk about jobs created, which are real and can be counted.
After all, that's what was originally proposed.
rich94061

"An economic stimulus package assumed to be just over $775 billion, the report estimated, would stoke economic growth by 3.7 percent by the end of next year and create or save about 3.3 to 4.1 million jobs." washington post article, dated 1/10/09

Posted by: Rich94061 | January 10, 2009 12:46 PM | Report abuse

you'll not see "sacrifice" from those who have been, and still are running our country into the ground....Congress and the special interest groups that own them, career politicians who work only for their own interests and personal wealth, yet they are re-elected again and again and again...

Posted by: vet4u | January 10, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Go back to the fundamentals, the first and second laws of thermodynamics apply to economics and govt as well. When you funnel money through the govt, waste is ALWAYS present, no matter how many "Oversight Czars" you appoint, it's a law of nature. Free markets (voluntary exchanges between individuals) are nature's way and are how America became the most prosperous and free country in the world. Either politicians are completely ignorant of basic science or are power hungry and know that only by abolishing free markets can they control everything.

Posted by: bastilledude | January 10, 2009 12:39 PM | Report abuse

Why not substantially cut foreign aid? We, the USA give BILLIONS away every year in foreign aid, perhaps a cut of 10 to 20% is called for. The money saved could be donated to medical research institutions, such as the National Institue of Health and Johns Hopkins University, or another worthy institution.

Posted by: jnrentz@aol.com | January 10, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Hail to the new chief, same as the old chief. We have no one to blame but ourselves, once we allowed congress to pass laws in conflict to the Constitution, we accepted it as a working premise. Now the federal government works outside of the founding documents (the Law) without any fear of reprisal. Our own greed is to blame. When the federal government confiscated Peters earnings to pay for Paul's vote, all hope for a legal, ethical & moral government went by the wayside. It turns out that all of us are both Peter AND Paul at some point so all of us are being robbed to pay for our own votes and are trained to blame "The Other Party" for our own greed.

Obama is not to blame, he's just a product of your own greed and corruption. You should have voted for Ron Paul.

Posted by: AmericanSharecropper | January 10, 2009 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Obama's plan will promote short term growth, but it is not an industry. The jobs created will vanish over time. Infrastructure facilitates wealth creation from other industries, industries that has to exist first. Obama is trying to copy the socialist system but does not realize there is no bottleneck in American infrastructure servicing its industries, money spent on improving everything he mentioned will only contribute to short term job creation, feel good policies, but do nothing to improve America's real economy, its industries. Infact, the only thing that has any long term benifit to the real economy is his investment in education, even alternative energy does not do much to promote manufacturing since most of those equipments are imported from Japan and China already.

Americans are still hanging onto the illusion of the "American Dream", where you get paid $50K a year just for maing a pair of shoes, that system does not work in the global economy because when you factoring in all of humanity into the equation, you do not deserve anywhere near the amount you are getting paid for the low complexity of your menial labor. Labor is a compedity like everything else, if there is a large supply, price will go down by sheer market forces, and today the onlything American workers still have some advantage in are high tech jobs, jobs that do not yet have much competition from overseas, and even that is eroding away thanks to the pathetic education system.

What should Obama do? There's not much he can do, that's the problem. He is not all powerful, the problem with American economy, its society, has only so much to do with its goverment and a few guys at the top, its problems are caused by those who make up the economy, the citizens, the average Americans who are unable to generate any real wealth in the 21st century yet hanging onto the lifestyle of the past. Obama can come up with 10 more stimulus and it won't solve a thing unless it wakes Americans up into the reality that just because they have been winning at the game of capitalism in the past, it does not mean them winning is a definition of capitalism.

Posted by: iewgnem | January 10, 2009 12:19 PM | Report abuse

The lowest paying jobs comprise the largest percentage of the package: retail and leisure and hospitality jobs, 20%.

Much depends on how these jobs are distributed. And this is projected to unfold over several years, not in the "tomorrow" when many people need decent jobs.

Local infrastructure can sure use a boost. But the other side of that is, why aren't state and local governments tightening their budgets and unloading some of the dead wood (read: aunts and brothers who have the plush municipal jobs with pensions)? Sales tax revenue is down because people aren't spending but state and local budgets are still spending. Many small towns should be consolidating. Here in ME, people freak over giving up local control but this situation can't continue. This is the land of the $11/job and you can wipe your fanny with college degrees.

Posted by: itsagreatday1 | January 10, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

All the good manufacturing jobs have already been shipped to China, Mexico and Indonesia. What America is going to compete with child labor in Indonesia or prisoners salaries in China? That's called "free trade," my friends. America is just becoming equalized to the economic levels of Mexico and Indonesia. Better get use to it.
*******************************************


aint it the truth!...this puts emphasis on the income gap getting larger. Not only are they getting more, but we are getting less. This is the result of NAFTA. I liked Clinton for his presidency, but he still is just one of the "tri-lateralists". A wonderful bi-partisan group they are!

Posted by: not-me | January 10, 2009 11:58 AM | Report abuse

The stench of corruption hangs low over the Obama transition as Richardson and Clinton and Emmanuel and Dodd and Rangel and Blago are pulled into the vortex. Soon trillions of federal dollars will be splooged into the nimble old hands of these appointed kleptocrats.

Posted by: georgejones5 | January 10, 2009 11:52 AM | Report abuse

Republicans better realize how badly Bush has screwed them. Obama is setting himself up to be "the new FDR." At a certain point, the American economy has to go into a mini-boom just because the housing sector has to rebound. All those people have to live somewhere. That alone will boost the economy, and it would happen no matter what Obama did. Of course, all the really "new jobs" will be at Wal-Marts, but Obama will still be "a hero" in the Press and his "economic recovery plan" a "stroke of genius." And, America will still be on a steady decline despite a temporary respite, but nobody will care. You better look forward to 8 years of Obama, even now, and perhaps 16 years of the Dems as Hillary moves in. Thanks to GW's failures.

Posted by: sofla | January 10, 2009 11:45 AM | Report abuse

THE CARNIVAL OF THE ANIMALS...

Posted by: V_1618 | January 10, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

It does not take a genius to see what is going on.

The private sector accelerated layoffs so that they could turn around and get federal money for hiring new employees.

cute real cute.

I was wondering why the propaganda coming from the in-the-game senators and congress people, along with the press, all creating an hyped up fear in people to keep them quiet.

this is shameful

Posted by: JohnAdams1 | January 10, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

None of the stimulus money should go for the support, or employment, of illegals!!!

Make certain that ALL Democrats, and Republicans, completely understand that!!!

Posted by: buzzm1 | January 10, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

It's almost surreal how these imbeciles in Washington are so cavalier about spending our money like idiots. Bush spent like a drunken sailor. Fannie and Freddie were two corrupt entities that dumbed down loans so folks who had no business doing so overspent on morngages. Democrats spent as per normal - and Republicans joined them. So with overspending the problem, what is Obama's solution? Let's spend even more!!!! Bush was stupid as a brick, but Obama is starting to make him look intelligent. When Obama said the other day that Government was the solution, I almost fell out of my chair.

Posted by: birvin9999 | January 10, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

Obama's own adviser stated that 3 million jobs would be created OR saved. What a joke. This is the ultimate shell game, robbing Peter to pay Paul. Bernie Madoff could take lessons from these Washingtonians.

Posted by: nuzreporter | January 10, 2009 11:29 AM | Report abuse

All the good manufacturing jobs have already been shipped to China, Mexico and Indonesia. What America is going to compete with child labor in Indonesia or prisoners salaries in China? That's called "free trade," my friends. America is just becoming equalized to the economic levels of Mexico and Indonesia. Better get use to it.

Posted by: sofla | January 10, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

"Redound"?! I hope Alan Keyes files a lawsuit against this legislation.

Posted by: JakeD | January 10, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

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