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Axelrod: 'Insane' for Democrats to oppose health-reform bill

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By Garance Franke-Ruta
In the waning days of 2009, as the Obama administration searches for 60 senators to support its signature legislative push, aides find themselves haunted by the ghosts of Democratic primaries past.

Former Vermont governor Howard Dean and Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Ct.) have emerged over the past week as two of the fiercest critics of the mammoth health-reform bill--reprising their 2003 roles as representatives of opposite ideological poles within the spectrum of Democratic-leaning thought.

Then, they clashed vigorously over the Iraq war in the lead-up to the Democratic primaries. Now, they are focused on health-care, and the standing of a Democratic president among a portion of his Democratic base appears caught in their crossfire.

Obama senior adviser David Axelrod took on both Dean -- who contended for the presidential nomination in 2004 and went on to serve as DNC chairman -- and liberals upset over Lieberman's power -- the 2000 Democratic veep nominee turned political independent--in remarks on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" Thursday (see clip above).

Axelrod said left-leaning Democrats should not let their "feelings" about Lieberman keep them from working with him to pass a bill, and warned that it "would be a tragic, tragic outcome" if Democratic senators vote against the legislation, as Dean is encouraging them to do.

"We're on the verge of doing something that would make an enormously positive difference for people," Axelrod said, adding later, "I don't think you want this moment to pass. It will not come back again."

The public tension over the duo's role in the health-care debate has been building, and by Wednesday Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs appeared to have had enough, calling Dean's assertions about the health-reform bill "flat-out wrong" and saying "I don't know what piece of legislation he's reading."

"I think if you talk to members of the Senate that represent a similar viewpoint in the political spectrum that Howard Dean does, they seem to disagree as much with Howard Dean as I think we would," Gibbs said.

Center for American Progress CEO John Podesta, a former Obama transition chief, sought to bring the tone back down to the policy level in a brief posted on the Think Progress blog that argued with Dean -- who again lays out his "kill the Senate bill" position in an op-ed in Thursday's Washington Post -- after noting, "I have great respect for Governor Dean."

Axelrod this morning again pressed the White House case that Dean is mistaken about what the bill contains. "I have a lot of respect for Governor Dean, but he got on the phone with Nancy-Ann DeParle, our point person on the health-care issue, went through point by point, she explained why he was wrong and he simply didn't want to hear that critique. I saw his piece in The Post this morning and it is predicated on a bunch of erroneous conclusions," said Axelrod.

A query (scroll to 5:40) about Joe Lieberman's role in designing the present Senate bill met with this retort from Axelrod: "He's certainly not writing this bill. But the notion that we would let our personal feelings about one person defeat a bill that would deliver to people who don't have insurance the opportunity to get it at a price they can afford; that would defeat a bill that has patient protections that we fought for for decades, for people who do have insurance; to defeat a bill that will bend the curve on, on this inexorable rise in health-care costs, is insane."

"It shouldn't be about Joe Lieberman. It should be about people who need help," Axelrod said. "It should be about the American people -- and that's what we're fighting for."

By Garance Franke-Ruta  |  December 17, 2009; 11:03 AM ET
Categories:  44 The Obama Presidency  
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Comments

The excessive health care costs could be reduced dramatically if, whenever a case goes to litigation say for malpractice or medical errors and millions of dollars are awarded to someone who could never in his life earn millions of dollars that the liberal judges award them. A settlement should be based on the amount of money the claimant could earn in his or her lifetime

Posted by: jrbreslin1 | December 19, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

The excessive health care costs could be reduced dramatically if, whenever a case goes to litigation say for malpractice or medical errors and millions of dollars are awarded to someone who could never in his life earn millions of dollars that the liberal judges award them. A settlement should be based on the amount of money the claimant could earn in his or her lifetime

Posted by: jrbreslin1 | December 19, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

Why not just spend more money on health care? Oh and did anyone by chance look up Nancy Pelosi's acceptance speech. If you missed it she said ( We will no longer put mountains of debt onto future generations) Just as she said it nothing added here.

Posted by: annieandpauldonovan | December 18, 2009 3:48 AM | Report abuse

David David David,This health care bill discriminates against us.By us, I mean the people of this great country.Not you in Washington because you have your own programs right? My first example is ,it requires that ALL health care hire minoritys only and that if they don't they will not get funding.Hows that for fair to the people.It sounds to me alot like reverse discrimination lawsuits to be followed soon by all.Like Brigette Gabriel from actfroamerica.org says they must be stopped.

Posted by: annieandpauldonovan | December 18, 2009 3:39 AM | Report abuse

I hope EVERYONE heard Keith Olbermann's impassioned plea for health reform. I was moved to tears. It just might be the most erudite speech I've ever heard.
Senators - you've got your money from the insurance agencies. Now will you do something for the good of others for a change? There are people dying out there because they can't get insured. NO JOBS
Who are you to play God with their lives???
You sit in your beautiful homes collecting your hefty paychecks and are safe. Who the heck do you think votes you in to your cushy jobs? WE DO!!!!
Now is the chance for you to do something for others - isn't that why we exist -
My motto - get up, show up and help others
Toni Mueller
Waldport, OR

Posted by: Tonisongbird34 | December 17, 2009 10:18 PM | Report abuse

All I can think is that Americans cannot say they were wrong too easily...which is why Obama still has any support left whatsoever. There is no conspiracy theory...there is only conspiracy. The angst of modern America - we owe everybody everything because everything is our fault...it is our fault that we have fought and died in the protection of others, that we have rendered aid, both public and private, to every disaster of any consequence on earth, that we log countless volunteer hours in the service of nearly everything...that we have tried to do what we believed was right...and when we made a mistake, such as slavery - there were always those who would stand up and fight until the death to make it right... Is this the America that Obama is ashamed enough of to incessantly apologize for--that his wife calls 'mean-spirited?'
I am ashamed of this administration that sends our men and women to die for a cause they don't care about winning but won't let go of...I am ashamed of this president who chooses communists, lesbian activists and a man who teaches 14 years olds about fisting and oral sex etiquette gaining the title SAFE EDUCATION czar....Are there any patriots left in Washington...God bless them each and every one...let me say that while it is still lawful to do so...People please, in the name of all that is good and holy...open your eyes and see what is going on here... look down the road at where this is all heading... it will not be a good place no matter what your political persuasions...

Posted by: sheila36619 | December 17, 2009 9:20 PM | Report abuse

How can anyone say with a straight face that we will no longer be a superpower without health reform?? How can anyone with a mind believe anything this president and his henchmen have to say about anything? How will we be a superpower when bankrupt?? How will we get ahead as a nation when only the rights of the special interest groups are taken seriously? How will we survive the duplicity of this administration with Obama's ranting bullying, the constant menacing threats of so many? How can you ignore climategate - it is soo about going green - the kind that lines pockets... Are there no thinking, reasonable persons left in Washington? Since when does the government have the right to ignore not only public opinion but the public good as well as common sense. This rob from the rich and give to not only the poor but the lazy, the 'entitled' and whoever else gets on the bandwagon...has never worked. From a practical standpoint...if we render the wealthy financially impotent...where do these people think all the freebies are going to come from...Even self-proclaimed world changing Obama can only play with Monopoly money for so long...I can only pray that reason is restored before America is lost...

Posted by: sheila36619 | December 17, 2009 9:10 PM | Report abuse

At this juncture, it's become increasingly difficult to automatically dismiss the conspiracy theorists who claim that Obama really wants to destroy our economy in order to rebuild it as part of a "new world order"

Posted by: apberusdisvet | December 17, 2009 7:25 PM | Report abuse

Democrats don't oppose Health Care Reform, REPUBLICANS do. They also oppose anything else Mr. Obama and the Democrats propose. They are so self-absorbed and bent on destroying any legacy by a black President, that they will destroy the Nation in the process.

Posted by: billnbillieskid
...............................
Yes thank god for the President.


Fairy Tale Land

Bankers are overjoyed at the idea of spending their time and effort on making loans, instead of the exciting large bonuses that can be made with buying and trading Wall Street paper with bank deposits.

There are rumors that the new sleeper this year for bankers will be the release of "The Inner Joys Of Making Loans".

The Cash for Caulking program of the President is a result of an in depth review by government economists of the Great Leap Forward of Mao.

There are plenty of non-exportable jobs in America to make up for the tens of millions of jobs using computer technology that are being exported.

Government is ablaze with the idea that the jobs for Americans in the 21st century, are not the jobs in computer technology, but the jobs of insulation and caulking.

There is even a new government pamphlet "Building Your Business Without Computers".

The Tooth fairy is hiring with plenty of non-exportable jobs this year after getting a business loan from the banks.

Posted by: bsallamack | December 17, 2009 7:22 PM | Report abuse

Democrats don't oppose Health Care Reform, REPUBLICANS do. They also oppose anything else Mr. Obama and the Democrats propose. They are so self-absorbed and bent on destroying any legacy by a black President, that they will destroy the Nation in the process. There is no more Republican Party to speak of anyway, they're all "C" Streeters, "Tea baggers" and other lunatic anti-intellectual Neanderthals. God forbid a President with intelligence and a MIND of his own dare propose an agenda that disturbs the FatCats in the Beltway. Republicans used to agree to disagree, yet STILL work for the common good. Not any more. Hopefully, the President will remove the Kid Gloves and begin the Bare-Knuckle fight to bring his plans to fruition. Forget the Republicans. They don't exist anymore.

Posted by: billnbillieskid | December 17, 2009 7:14 PM | Report abuse

...may in fact be voting against Reform because he simply does not want President Obama to succeed at anything.

Posted by: rstithem1
...........
Thank God no one stood in the way of the President making the Democrats the party of Wall Street. Perhaps it should be considered that the President has achieved enough this year by this accomplishment.

Posted by: bsallamack | December 17, 2009 7:05 PM | Report abuse

A few months ago Joe, as we all know, supported expanding Medicare to younger citizens. Now he doesn't. Because of this and many of his other choices, we have to consider that his real motivation is not a better bill, and not even as many project, protection of his home state insurance companies, which frankly, stand to make a lot of money of this bill passes. (Required insurance is a big boon for the companies.) Joe, who strongly supported George W and the Iraqi war, may in fact be voting against Reform because he simply does not want President Obama to succeed at anything. Obama is not the unquestioning supporter of Israel that Bush was. Therefore, Lieberman, who may well care about Israel above all else, including the welfare of our country, will oppose Reform now matter how much we tailor it to his stated preferences.

Posted by: rstithem1 | December 17, 2009 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Without health care reform the US will no longer be a world power. Its health care rankings in terms of life expectancy, infant mortality, cost-effectiveness, medical excellence will rapidly drop to the level of a developing country. The US government will no longer be able to finance the US healthcare entitlement society. Unless all Americans contribute to the health care system, and the Government implements serious cost controls, health care in the US will become unaffordable, unsustainable and substandard.

Posted by: rm11
.................
So can we assume that you want to ditch this bill and start over on a bill with a one payer system that actually starts lowering the costs of health care.

Posted by: bsallamack | December 17, 2009 6:19 PM | Report abuse

Without health care reform the US will no longer be a world power. Its health care rankings in terms of life expectancy, infant mortality, cost-effectiveness, medical excellence will rapidly drop to the level of a developing country. The US government will no longer be able to finance the US healthcare entitlement society. Unless all Americans contribute to the health care system, and the Government implements serious cost controls, health care in the US will become unaffordable, unsustainable and substandard. Without health care reform, individual hospitals, family doctors and eventually health insurance companies will go bankrupt. Imagine there is health insurance, and nobody will buy it. I do not need health care. Emergency rooms are my favorite pastime.

Posted by: rm11 | December 17, 2009 5:57 PM | Report abuse

McLean, Virginia -- After what Axelrod did during the primary, no one with a grain of common sense would pay any attention to him.

Barack Obama has so damaged his own perceptions that I will no longer trust him. How could anybody have faith in a man who has George W. Bush's evil policies on every matter before the courts?

The two most important issues in this Administration from Day 1 were the following:

1) Get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan; and

2) Pass a meaningful reform of the medical insurance program.

Obama has failed both of the objectives.

No one could possibly believe we will be out of Afghanistan in 18 months. Obama never made any attempts to support the "Public Option." He has completely dumped any and all possibilities for improvement in our Health Care industry.

Gov. Howard Dean is right. Kill the Senate Bill.

Paul Matthews

Posted by: matthewsp1 | December 17, 2009 5:52 PM | Report abuse

Maybe it's time for a time-out. Why not get the 6 Dems and 4 Repubs in the senate to sit down and see what they can agree to without rancor... no pre-existing conditions exclusions, a complete price-freeze on all premiums and Medicare reimbursements for 12 months and at the end the bill(s) must be posted on the Net for 1 week and then all Senators must conduct at least 4 townhall meetings after the posting...and before voting. First bill limited to 50 pages in length.

All in congress work for $1 per year for 2010 and not single earmark by anyone.

Posted by: alantich2000 | December 17, 2009 5:45 PM | Report abuse

Like many people, Dean may have bouts of temporary insanity, but Axelrod is terminally stupid for publicly attacking another Democrat. Congress had the potential to offer this nation true universal healthcare for 12 percent GNP and they totally blew it, caving in to pharmaceutical and insurance lobbyists.

What Congress came up with is worse than an abortion - which they practically made illegal. This bill is a taxpayers' gift to the drug and insurance companies.

Posted by: alance | December 17, 2009 5:37 PM | Report abuse

Something is wrong about this administration.

Something weird is going on behind the scenes and I have the sinking feeling that it will be really bad for America.

Posted by: Straightline
..........................................
Do not worry the administration that made the Democrats the party of Wall Street is okay.

The President is engaged in the problem of massive unemployment with the new sexy jobs of installing insulation and caulking.

The President in November “lectured teachers, students and parents on the need to “step up their games” if the United States wants to compete with India, and now Americans understand that this is the reason for someone in India who can barely speak English, speaking to an American about their account in an American Bank instead of an American.

There is no problems that the President will simply sign any bill that is presented to him on national health insurance.

Everything is great.

Posted by: bsallamack | December 17, 2009 5:30 PM | Report abuse

My God, what is wrong with these people. I'm an Independent and I'm for health insurance reform, but NOT this mess! Where is the dissolution of the insurance industry anti-trust protection; where is the protection against unaffordable premiums? And mandating that I have to carry insurance even if I can't afford it? I love Obama, but this is making me want to go to DC teach people a little about common sense and it's definitely making me want to see this stupid bill go down in flames, thank you Joe Lieberman!

Posted by: beaone | December 17, 2009 5:26 PM | Report abuse


Something is wrong about this administration.

Something weird is going on behind the scenes and I have the sinking feeling that it will be really bad for America.

Posted by: Straightline | December 17, 2009 5:02 PM | Report abuse

A lot of you people's anger sounds a lot like how the people sounded under Clinton's first two years.

The difference now as opposed to them, the Internet was nothing like it was now and there were no message boards or blogs to express public opinion, until the mid to late 1990's.
Posted by: wlockhar
.....................
The difference now is that the country is facing massive unemployment and a country where it is acceptable to simply export all of the real American jobs of the 21st century.

Couple this with a Democratic administration that has allowed the Democrats to become the party of Wall Street.

Remember 2008 when all the major banks collapsed 9 years after the repeal of Glass Steagall in 1999.

Well this administration has not brought back Glass Steagall to make the banks lend instead of playing with Wall Street paper.

In 2011 look for a repeat of 2008.

Posted by: bsallamack | December 17, 2009 4:58 PM | Report abuse

The "healthcare reform" bill is not a reform; it is a corruption. The process started with HR676, universal, single-payer, publicly funded health financing; it has been twisted and degraded into a tool to move more money to private hands. It drives deeper the mechanism to transfer wealth from ordinary and poor people to rich people. The Senators are acting as expected.
Regards, Bob (I am not paid to comment.)

Posted by: rjjd | December 17, 2009 4:55 PM | Report abuse

Boy, I hope Doofus "Axe" is reading some (most of) these comments.

The only person folding up like a cheap umbrella is his boss...certainly not his former supporters.

You people can't have failed enough in the first year.

Posted by: SwellLevel5 | December 17, 2009 4:50 PM | Report abuse

A lot of you people's anger sounds a lot like how the people sounded under Clinton's first two years.

Remember Clinton was also playing the "I want to get a long" and tried to be a populist. That changed in his last two years and was far behind in his second term.

The difference now as opposed to them, the Internet was nothing like it was now and there were no message boards or blogs to express public opinion, until the mid to late 1990's.

Take it easy on Obama, he should come around by 2011.

Posted by: wlockhar | December 17, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

Yes Democrats would be insane to listen to the President that has made the Democrats the party of Wall Street.

Democrats would be insane to go against the President who has promised us the sexy non-exportable job of the future for Americans of installing insulation and caulking, instead of the computer technology jobs and jobs of using computer technology which are reserved for exporting to other nations.

Yes Americans would be insane.

India may get $1 billion in IT outsourcing contracts
Reuters November 23, 2009
The newspaper said JPMORGAN, GOLDMAN SACHS and MORGAN STANLEY that received approval to pay back government stake worth $68 billion earlier this year are among the firms seeking operational efficiencies by outsourcing non-core IT and back-office projects to India.

Posted by: bsallamack | December 17, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

I think it's funny all the dems thinking that Obama can do ANYTHING to get Lieberman off his back/knees. Joe wants green. Not for his state, but for himself and his wife. (That's why he's not susceptible to a Landrieu like payoff-he doesn't get his cut). Same with Nelson. There are at least 4 Dem versions of Ashley Dupree in the Senate, and of course, every last Republican. So, if you want anything worth while done, you need to do it by expanding Medicare in the budget reconciliation process. This may now happen, and when it does, watch Lieberman do a 180 to try and save his chairmanships. This should be fun!

Posted by: whereareweandwhatarewedoinginthishandbasket | December 17, 2009 3:55 PM | Report abuse

OBAMA'S TET OFFENSIVE? OR A LAST CHANCE POWER DRIVE?

Obama losing Olbermann on health care reform is akin to LBJ losing Cronkite on Vietnam -- at least to his disillusioned base.

Mr. President, Democrats: Can you spell "R-E-C-O-N-C-I-L-I-A-T-I-O-N?"

Prove to the nation that Democrats can pass meaningful health care reform.

***

BUT WHAT GOOD IS HEALTH CARE REFORM TO THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS WHO ARE ELECTROMAGNETICALLY TORTURED AND IMPAIRED BY A FEDERAL MICROWAVE/LASER WEAPONS SYSTEM -- EMPLOYING CELL TOWERS AND SATELLITES?

http://nowpublic.com/world/obama-wrong-unaware-u-s-does-torture-its-own-citizens OR http://NowPublic.com/scrivener RE: "GESTAPO USA"


Posted by: scrivener50 | December 17, 2009 3:51 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps the only good that will come out of the national health bill where Americans will be penalized if they do not purchase private health insurance, is that Americans will recognize that this nation can not survive when government only considers the special interests.

The major banks have not been forced out of investment banking and back to lending because of the Wall Street interests to keep the major banks as their customers for Wall Street paper.

There are no jobs for Americans except non-exportable jobs such as caulking and installing insulation, because of the special interest of American companies that want to outsource overseas American jobs and use visas for foreign workers here in the United States.

This government even goes along with the special interest and pretends that Americans are insufficient in education and that this is the reason why an individual in India who can barely speak English is speaking to an American about their account in an American bank, instead of an American.

It is perfectly acceptable for this government to have banks that do not lend and massive unemployment instead of opposing the special interests. And now it will be perfectly acceptable for this government to penalize Americans for not buying from private insurers, instead of opposing the special interests.

For both Democrats and Republican in government this is no longer the nation of Americans. This is the nation of the special interests.

Posted by: bsallamack | December 17, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Its simply that Congress works for Corporate Multinationals.

We need to organise into a Corporation of People and pool all our people resources so we can have a company able to compete. If they want people they must deal with us. This gives a chance to influence the Federal and other governments of the world, like the other Corporations.

http://www.iww.org/
In the entrepreneurial spirit of Capitalism, organise!

Posted by: WilliamBlake | December 17, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Interesting that some of the Democrats are waking up to the fact that a past due health insurance payment could cost you $250,000 in fines and 16 to 20 years in jail.

No more county courthouse, friendly judge, and discussions on a deal with the company's lawyer out in the lobby.

That $250,000 deal gets you taken to FEDERAL DISTRICT COURT.

You ever try to get credit for a new car loan when you're under indictment in federal court?

Not that the Democrats are getting smart ~ they're just getting awake, and this bill has ALL THE BAD STUFF, and NONE OF THE GOOD STUFF ~ and that's true for them and for the rest of us.

Best stuff this beastie down the nearest hole and move out smartly.

Posted by: muawiyah | December 17, 2009 3:32 PM | Report abuse

No, opposing the bill is not insane. No Medicare buy-in, no public option, no reining in of the health insurance companies. But a mandate to buy insurance from private companies and penalties if we don't? That is insane.

Posted by: Gatsby10 | December 17, 2009 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Nuclear option. Just like the Republicans threatened in 2005 over W's efforts to pack the federal courts with wacko judges.

Posted by: Garak | December 17, 2009 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Axelrod is calling the 99.99% of the USA insane as he supports and NPD Sociopathic dual profile fraud shell game liar.

He is on the disappeared island of Obama support up to his neck in water and throwing dirt?


Hmmm.....so much for his own sanity.

Posted by: dottydo | December 17, 2009 3:16 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: dottydo | December 17, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Axelrod is the architect of Obama's failed health reform strategy. His primary goal is to defend his value/credibility as Obama's chief political adviser, period. The public will correctly lay the blame for the failure of a meaningful health care bill at the feet of the GOP. The voters will have the opportunity to tell the GOP what they think about this in the midterm congressional elections. If the voters respond as I think they will, a meaningful health care bill can be tried again; of course, this would be mean that Obama would have to put his reelection bid in the following year on the line.

Posted by: ebjlb | December 17, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

All the of our fine representatives should give up their single-payer, government paid-for health care and be made to sign up and pay for their own health insurance. They should also give back all the money they received from big pharma and the health insurance industries lobbiests. They re-wrote the bill so that it doesn't help the people that really need it, it will only give more money to the health insurance industry. It will financially hurt the people who need the help.

99% of the people in Washington really care about the "little man". The rest are just lining their pockets at our expense, both Republicans and Democracts.

WAKE UP AMERICA!

Posted by: tre793 | December 17, 2009 3:02 PM | Report abuse

AXELROD is 100 percent correct, and the Democrats damn well better deliver a bill to the Messiah. The Ego must be fed. Do this without delay!

Posted by: Tupac_Goldstein | December 17, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Well we finally have it right. It is insane to oppose what is an insane bill!
About time !!

Posted by: mct1 | December 17, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

INCONVENIENT FACT

Hey Einstein --

What you cited requires an EIGHTY percent cut in the bill's fiscal impact.

Idiot.

--------

" .. The only reason I hold out some passing desire for its passage is the possibility that a more reasonable and effective bill will be hammered out in conference, which will only require a senate Yea vote of 50+1 to pass."

Posted by: russpoter | December 17, 2009 2:51 PM | Report abuse

wiockhar wrote:

"At this point, any bill would be better than no bill. We could always make amendments later."

How? All it takes is for a single Senator to put a hold on a bill, and then it will still require 60 to achieve cloture. So we play out the same Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football again and again.

Posted by: boscobobb | December 17, 2009 2:37 PM | Report abuse

so sorry I voted for Obama, back stabbing, lying SOB. Bush cut taxes on the rich,(i.e let rich keep their money, ill gotten or not) now Obama wants to force the working poor to hand over their money directly to the fat cat insurance execs to stuff in their pockets. This will be the biggest transfer of money from the poor to the rich in history. Obama is ten times worse than Bush. They'll remove this if I write what Aslerod and Co. can do.

Posted by: dochi1 | December 17, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

askgees,
You are conflating two different concepts.

The reason private insurance premiums are so high is NOT because it is used to subsidize Medicare shortfalls.

1) Private insurance has low medical loss rate (ratio of payments going to actual medical care) with 20-30% of every premium dollar never coming close to a doctor's office. THAT'S where the money goes. (I agree that talk of CEO pay is a red herring)

2) Yes, private insurance pays more than Medicare, and therefore doctors look to it to subsidize their Medicare income.

1 and 2 are completely different problems.

My current opposition to the bill emerging from the Senate is that nothing is being done to affect item 1. That has been my concern from day 1 and will remain my concern.

Mandating 30-40 million Americans to buy insurance which will have 20-30% markup subsidized by taxpayers is about the most inefficient model one can imagine as a taxpayer. But it's great for insurance shareholders.

The proposals buried in the House bill to increase medical loss rate to 90+% seem to be gutted, and the ability of insurers to game the accounting and auditing so that just about everything is called medically related expense means a continuation of the status quo.

Looking one step further, who is in the pocket of the insurers? The poster boy for Aetna is Joe Lieberman.

I harbor no personal emnity for Joe. But he's being dishonest in his denials and not negotiating in good faith.

Let's guarantee him a statue on the Washington Mall to stroke his ego and attract lots of pigeons if that's what's needed to fix this bill.

Posted by: boscobobb | December 17, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

OBAMA PASSION DEFICIT COULD ENCOURAGE DEAN TO CHALLENGE

Does Howard Dean's 11th hour thumbs-down on the Senate health care reform bill presage a possible presidential primary challenge to Barack Obama?

WaPo political pundit Chris Cillizza calls such a gambit "extremely unlikely." But in the eyes of those who have disappointed by Mr. Obama's failure to prevent he bill's watering down by the likes of the petulant and toadying Joe Lieberman, it becomes more likely with each passing day.

President Obama recently has exhibited a peculiar and troubling regression from past displays of moral resolve and courage. Something seems not right with President Obama. He appears to be detached, aloof, dispassionate. He laughs at inappropriate moments, as evidenced in his two "60 Minutes" interviews with Steve Kroft of CBS News. Kroft invited POTUS to emote by asking about the personal agony involved in his decision to send 30,000 more troops into harm's way in Afghanistan. Mr. Obama's response might be characterized as a "Dukakis Moment," more cerebral than empathetic.

It's almost as if President Obama has fallen under the influence of a physical force that has altered his persona, blunted his emotions -- a passionate advocate of hope and change transformed, downsized, into just another calculating and cautious political automaton.

As far-fetched as it may sound, it got me to thinking about this question:

IS PRESIDENT OBAMA UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF SILENT MICROWAVE/LASER 'DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS' ENTRAINMENT?

To find out why I raise this question, please read this article and the accompanying "comments" section:

http://nowpublic.com/world/obama-wrong-unaware-u-s-does-torture-its-own-citizens OR http://NowPublic.com/scrivener

Posted by: scrivener50 | December 17, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

The article fails to mention that David Axelrod is responsible for Howard Dean not being given a role in the Obama administration.

I've heard that Axelrod kept Dean outside the tent because they were on opposite sides in the 2004 Iowa primary (Axelrod ran Dick Gebhardt's campaign).

Axelrod has only himself to blame for Howard's opposition to this bill.

Posted by: norriehoyt | December 17, 2009 2:23 PM | Report abuse

I will plead no contest to the charge of insanity, but that isn't really relevant to my opposition to the health care reform bill as presently constituted in the Senate.

The Senate bill seems to me to be nothing more than a major subsidy to health insurance companies and the providers of health care services. This isn't what I vote Democratic to achieve, particularly when there do not seem to be any effective mechanisms in the bill for controlling the costs of health insurance premiums, which are certain to rise SHARPLY if the mandate to cover pre-existing conditions is enforced.

I ALREADY cannot afford to pay the full premium to insure my own health and that of my family. When it rises this will put health insurance even further beyond my reach.

This Senate bill could have been proposed by the Bush administration, with nothing for the people and with its chief concern being to protect, indeed to increase, the profits of health insurance and pharmaceutical firms that are already sucking too many of our health care dollars into their pockets. I do not support it for reasons that do not seem to be insane at all, even in the clear light of day.

The only reason I hold out some passing desire for its passage is the possibility that a more reasonable and effective bill will be hammered out in conference, which will only require a senate Yea vote of 50+1 to pass.

Our Founders never intended for the filibuster to be used in this manner, to thwart the needs of the American people.

Posted by: FergusonFoont | December 17, 2009 2:19 PM | Report abuse

Dear Socialists & Commies:

How's it under the bus with Rev. Wright? Told ya, USA hates fakers and Commies.

HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA ..

Posted by: russpoter | December 17, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

NOTE from (CNSNews.com):

Sen. Lincoln: Congress Can Force Americans to Buy Health Insurance Because Constitution ‘Charges Congress With the Health’ of the People

Wednesday, December 16, 2009
By Nicholas Ballasy, Video Reporter

(CNSNews.com) - Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.) told CNSNews.com that Congress has the authority to force individual Americans to buy health insurance because the U.S. Constitution “charges Congress with the health and well-being of the people.”

The words “health” and “well-being” do not appear anywhere in the Constitution.

The Congressional Budget Office has determined that in the entire history of the United States the federal government has never mandated that Americans buy any good or service.


Posted by: DiscerningCitizen | December 17, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

You can love or hate Joe Lieberman but you've got to admit, he's one tough cookie. He must drive Rahm Emanuel nuts!

Posted by: anon99 | December 17, 2009 2:08 PM | Report abuse

Hey I'm talking to you Obama!!! You stupid, gutless punk!! You think I will vote for you again, then think again punk!!! Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, well as idiot george said, you can't get fooled again!! You have less spine than an earthworm. Your spine must be made of spaghetti. I hope you get a big time primary challenge come 2012. hope every democrat who votes for this farce of a health care legislation loses!!! You are a joke sir!!! A joke perpetrated on long suffering democrats by the republican party!! Idiot george spent years stacking the courts with right wing zealots. What have we gotten from punk biatch Obama? A big fat nothing. I hope you lose biatch!!! I am done worrying about you. You are a punk!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Henry_of_BrowardCounty | December 17, 2009 2:05 PM | Report abuse

This fat, overrated moron must think we're all little "Bushies" who will do and say anything to "get along" (read: Colin Powell).

Sorry, Tubby....

We signed on for more for than an arrogant, condescending limp dick who folds up like a $2 suitcase at the first sign of opposition.

Good luck in 2010 and 2012. He's is going to flame out faster than Tiger Woods.

Don't ask me for help.

Posted by: Losercuda | December 17, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Please help us call out our Senators by requesting that they give back all the money they have accepted from the health insurance lobby before they vote on this bill. To learn more or to join our Give It Back campaign please visit our web page on votingbloc.org:
http://www.votingbloc.org/Give_It_Back.php
Posted by: letsgobuffalo | December 17, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse
There called CAMPAINGE CONTRIBUTIONS LIBT@RD. There declared and MUST BE USED for SPECIFIC purposes.

Or did you thing they we’re personal donations that they get to keep. LOL

Friggin m0r0n. No wonder America is falling into the abyss. We have some of the STUP1DEST FU#KING people in the world.

Posted by: askgees | December 17, 2009 1:54 PM | Report abuse

Obama must play hardball. He caves in all the time. Everyone can twist his arm except the voters that want the public option.
We need options. A public option.
Posted by: Maddogg | December 17, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse


LAPDOGG is a classic example of the ignorance consuming the left. He hasn’t got the slightest idea how things work or why insurance premiums are as high as they are. In his (and most LIBS) tiny little brains it all has to do with Exec. Compensation. LOL This is just more BS spewed from the LEFT Those that hate America. If these ret@rds took a little time to actually look at the issues they might be able to come up with a solution. But since all they can do is mimic every other simpled#$k out there they have lost sight of the real problems (Distracted with bells and whistles) Guess what LAPDOGG????? Medicare/Medicaid is THE PUBLIC OPTION and the REASON insurance premiums are as high as they are. The US Gov. does not pay their share of the medical bills submitted under these plans SO YOU AND I HAVE TO. This also applies to the costs the hospitals and clinics incur from treating illegals and patients that DO NOY PAY. We pay for it. Prescription drug prices are high for the same reason. We subsidize others medications. If this we’re to end insurance prices would drop 40-50%. With this said it should be VERY EASY for you to see, the EVIL ONE is the Gov. They DON’T PAY THEIR BILLS so WE DO. Democrats survive off of passing out outers money/belongings in order to buy votes from the one’s who have/know the least. Poor ignorant voters = poor ignorant politicians. CAUSE and EFFECT!!!!

Posted by: askgees | December 17, 2009 1:50 PM | Report abuse

You know whats insane? Trusting the same political parties that always fail to do anything but fail. That is insane.

Posted by: lostinthemiddle | December 17, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

this guys lies like a rug.

Posted by: obrier2 | December 17, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

HEALTH CARE REFORM or DEFORM?

IF the current cast in the Congress is unwilling to provide MediCare for ALL Americans, then the Congress should do NOTHING and let the current legislation fail, as Dr. Dean advocates given the GOP's and Lieberman's demand for "status quo."

THEN, once the toadies (Opponents of Health Care Insurance Reform) for Big Insurance have received their campaign MONIES and JOBS from Big Insurance, watch as both MediCare and MedicAId CRASH, leaving ALL Americans without health care protection.

THEN, what will those "toadies" of Big Insurance do? What will this nation do? With that CRASH, will come the CRASH of Social Security just as the Baby Boomers commence to retire.

NOW what will the TOADIES do? What will the United States do? What will the "Boomers" do?

All that because someone named Lieberman and the Republicans in Congress have put themselves ahead of the LIVES of Americans.

Anyone want to wager what the RESPONSE by Americans will be when they realize that their lives have been destroyed by a few self-serving politicians and their staff members on behalf of Big Insurance?

Capitol Hill and the White House need to recognize the consequences of their playing with the lives of Americans given that the government cannot sustain the current pattern of programs created by the Congress unless there is a HUGE TAX INCREASE, OR, a shut down of the American Government' Programs.

Consider the future of the United States citizens if MediCare, MedicAid and Social Security are destroyed as the GOP demands, on behalf of Big Business' transnational corporatists.

Americans can only blame themselves for allowing this "DUMBOCRACY" in Washington, D.C. to occur without holding each member of government accountable PERSONALLY, because these issues ARE PERSONAL.

Posted by: gglenc | December 17, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Please help us call out our Senators by requesting that they give back all the money they have accepted from the health insurance lobby before they vote on this bill. To learn more or to join our Give It Back campaign please visit our web page on votingbloc.org:

http://www.votingbloc.org/Give_It_Back.php

Posted by: letsgobuffalo | December 17, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse

....And just where did Axelrod and Rham Emanuel get their MD degrees? These two Chicago politicians have kept the medical profession (DOCTORS) out of this debate all along. The result is a pile of ....... they are now trying to sell, and reasonable Americans (both on the left and right) are not buying it.

I think it is VERY SOPHOMORIC of Obama to use threats.

This Chicago gang reminds us everyday just what a BAD MISTAKE WE MADE IN NOVEMBER 2008!!

Posted by: wheeljc | December 17, 2009 1:16 PM | Report abuse

All the As$ hole democrats want to do is run private companies out of business and let the government control our health care and our lives.
Thank goodness there are some sane people who know what they're trying to do, and are attempting to stop Odumbo, Reid and Pelosi, the three stooges.

Posted by: LarryG62 | December 17, 2009 1:16 PM | Report abuse

I hate to agree with George Will on anything other baseball but his assertion that "no bill is always better than a bad bill" is on target. Consumer mandates with fines and a tax on "high value plans at 40%, the highest tax charged on any income, regardless of the total income of the individual or family, and no consumer protections is a bad bill. It should be killed.

In the next round the President might try and show some principled leadership.

Nobody likes a winner David.

Posted by: ricklein | December 17, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

"We're on the verge of doing something that would make an enormously positive difference for people," Axelrod said, adding later, "I don't think you want this moment to pass. It will not come back again."

Nonsense, it will come back again immediately. Ignore Axelrod, he is in permanent campaign mode and he knows nothing about health care.

Posted by: shrink2 | December 17, 2009 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Axelrod has the "insane" part right. It is insane for the Democrats to continue pushing an ill conceived health care bill when the American people overwhelming reject it.

Thank God for the Republicans in Congress standing up for the rights of the American people and their integrity to fight against a legislative “big government” disaster mandated on all U.S. citizens and taxpayers.

Posted by: klausdmk | December 17, 2009 1:04 PM | Report abuse

PepperDr wrote: "Tell Howard Dean to go to hell. He would deny 30-40 million people healthcare coverage based upon his ideological views about insurance companies? What sense does that make. Everyone agrees that insurance companies are part of the problem. But refusing to support ANY healthcare reform just because insurance companies will continue to make profits is jusr flat out INSANE. And coming from Howard Dean, that is not so surprising. Yeeahhhgh!"
________________________________________________
Did you even read Howard Dean's analysis, or did you just read Axelrod's deception and then post your comment?

Posted by: kwoods2 | December 17, 2009 1:03 PM | Report abuse

At this point, any bill would be better than no bill. We could always make amendments later.

Posted by: wlockhar | December 17, 2009 12:59 PM | Report abuse

Tell Howard Dean to go to hell. He would deny 30-40 million people healthcare coverage based upon his ideological views about insurance companies? What sense does that make. Everyone agrees that insurance companies are part of the problem. But refusing to support ANY healthcare reform just because insurance companies will continue to make profits is jusr flat out INSANE. And coming from Howard Dean, that is not so surprising. Yeeahhhgh!

Posted by: PepperDr

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another Obama crap artist. What is surprising about the Obama demonizing of Dean? The Dean liberals are the ones who won the small state caucuses but it is the Washington way to hump the people who work hard to win the game for you. An arid arizona wh0re is treated better than how Dean is being treated by the Obama crew.
As for the laughable 30 million more people will be covered. You have got to imagine that people are pea pods to sell garbage like that. I will let Digby demystify this:

"And Obama can say that you're getting a lot, but also saying that it "covers everyone," as if there's a big new benefit is a big stretch. Nothing will have changed on that count except changing the law to force people to buy private insurance if they don't get it from their employer. I guess you can call that progressive, but that doesn't make it so. In fact, mandating that all people pay money to a private interest isn't even conservative, free market or otherwise. It's some kind of weird corporatism that's very hard to square with the common good philosophy that Democrats supposedly espouse.

Nobody's "getting covered" here. After all, people are already "free" to buy private insurance and one must assume they have reasons for not doing it already. Whether those reasons are good or bad won't make a difference when they are suddenly forced to write big checks to Aetna or Blue Cross that they previously had decided they couldn't or didn't want to write. Indeed, it actually looks like the worst caricature of liberals: taking people's money against their will, saying it's for their own good. --- and doing it without even the cover that FDR wisely insisted upon with social security, by having it withdrawn from paychecks. People don't miss the money as much when they never see it."

Posted by: tuscany1 | December 17, 2009 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Like most people intuitively know -- that "if we can just get our Foot through the door, we have a chance of opening that door all the way! And, if we don't begin somewhere, and start the "cooking of the egg", then how much more expensive will healthcare costs become. And, if this is not a good thing, why are they (GOP/ Conserva Dems) fighting so hard to stop it. They too know that if we just get our foot through the door, there will be no stopping. Yes, it is too bad that there are not more in Congress who work for the people, but we have to work with what we have at the moment, take stock of this and work harder for true Jeffersons, and Washingtons and Franklins in the future. They will come...

I have not given up on Pres. Obama; he is fighting old, intrinsic patterns which will not die easily. He is however planting the seeds to their destruction. Take Heart!

POSITIVE EXERCISE: Sit quietly, focus in the third eye, link up with your Soul (the soul is light and always works for the good) and visualize health care reform As passed, implemented into law with a public option -- for energies always follows thought!

Posted by: wdsoulplane | December 17, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

I suspect that handing over the American people to the insurance companies in the form of a mandate will destroy Obama's relationship with his base. Obama should have gone for a German-style solar policy first. It is bizarre that he has spent all his political capital tacking toward a right wing which utterly despises him.

Posted by: scientist1 | December 17, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

I totally disagree with Mr. Axelrod (he said left-leaning Democrats should not let their "feelings" about Lieberman)
This has nothing to do about feelings Mr. Axelrod. Of course you are a professional politician and you only care about wining at all coasts, to you "Any bill becomes a victory. Clear thinking is thrown out the window for political calculus." and screw the American people, screw the people that voted for Obama, because as soon he arrived to the white house he turn around and embraces the policies of Bush from the war to the economy giving billionths to the bankers and telling the older Americans dependent on the social security income that next year you will not get raise in the coast of living expenses. Governor Dean is correct. “Health-care reform was supposed to give Americans choices about what kind of system they wanted to enroll in. Instead, it fines Americans if they do not sign up with an insurance company, which may take up to 30 percent of your premium dollars and spend it on CEO salaries -- in the range of $20 million a year -- and on return on equity for the company's shareholders. Few Americans will see any benefit until 2014, by which time premiums are likely to have doubled. In short, the winners in this bill are insurance companies; the American taxpayer is about to be fleeced with a bailout in a situation that dwarfs even what happened at AIG”.

I urge to the senators in my state of Maryland to reject this bill if it doest not include the Public Option>

Posted by: tepexpan | December 17, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Axelrod can go to hell, along w/ Rahm and their gutless boss, Mr. "No Drama." Let them experience the current American reality of outsourced jobs, soaring expenses and intermittent employment before they glibly talk about health care reform.

This isn't about personal feelings, whether towards Pres. Obama or Sen. Lieberman. Yes, they betrayed us, but there are bigger issues than betrayal.

This is about a massive giveaway to insurance companies, financed on the backs of hardworking Americans who would be compelled to pay these premiums at the risk of civil or criminal prosecution.

And can we have a moratorium on references to "crazy" and Dr. Dean's unfortunate yell? The man is one of the rare people in Washington who are unafraid to speak the truth. So what if he gets a little excited sometimes?

Posted by: MattNYC1 | December 17, 2009 12:45 PM | Report abuse

"It should be about people who need help," Axelrod said. "It should be about the American people..."

I agree, instead it is all about insurance scams, political maneuvering, extermination of our young and robbing Grandma and Grandpa's medical needs.

Posted by: kwoods2 | December 17, 2009 12:44 PM | Report abuse

The problem is, as always, that some politicians put their personal political ambitions ahead of the welfare of the country. Dean should sit down and shut up. As for "Old Joe" Lieberman, he is in his dotage and is obviously having memory problems - one has to wonder if he can remember what he ate for breakfast. The problem is that people keep electing such individuals.

Posted by: FredinVicksburg | December 17, 2009 12:38 PM | Report abuse

I have been studying the House and Senate bills as well as the various proposed amendments and listening to the debates on CSPAN.

Dr. Dean is absolutely right and I applaud him for voicing what so many Americans across the spectrum are thinking, as they watch hope for a public insurance option fade.

Mr. Axelrod is incorrect that we are opposing the current Senate bill because we don't like Lieberman. Our current for-excessive-profit insurance system is insane and we don't see this current legislation as doing anything to cure the madness.

Posted by: jhasbrouck | December 17, 2009 12:38 PM | Report abuse

Axelrod is one of the biggest and most arrogant jerks in this Administration!!! He and Barney Frank are two of a kind.

Posted by: Jimbo77 | December 17, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

THE CURRENT HEALTHCARE BILL IS A DISASTER - AN UNMITIGATED DISASTER.

F*ck David Axelrod. He is political apparakit whose sole objective is to sign something, anything, that he and his Harvard flunky can call a 'victory' healthcare bill. I have read - actually read - the 2019 meaningful pages of this disgraceful bill and THIS IS WHAT IT CONTAINS. This Bill:

1 Does NOT contain a Public Option
2. DENIES young seniors (55yr-62yr olds) any chance to buy into Medicare no matter how poor
3. Lets Insurance Companies RETAIN the right to DENY you/your family coverage for pre-existing conditions
4. Lets Insurance companies RETAIN the right to charge OLDER Americans greater premium for the crime - yes, the crime - of being old
5. Lets Insurance companies RETAIN the right to increase your premium at will
6. Mandates nearly all Americans to buy insurance or PAY A PENALTY; that is, 40 million more victims for Insurance companies to exploit/victimize
7. Restricts women’s reproductive rights beyond “Roe v. Wade” and beyond current laws in the book

AMERICANS - PLEASE KILL THIS BILL. IT IS AN INSURANCE COMPANY GIVE-AWAY; WORSE THAN THE WALL STREET GIVE AWAY!

Posted by: Silent_Echo | December 17, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

President Obama and David Axelrod's lies and gutless compromises are coming home to roost. Together, in one year, they have lost their base and in 11 more months they will lose their majority in Congress and in 3 years their own jobs. But I am sure that both these guys will have stuffed their pockets full by then.

"Obama Administration Gives Bechtel Bettis a $128 Million Small Business contract"
The American Small Business League (ASBL) has uncovered a $128 million small business contract awarded to Bechtel Bettis by Obama officials.

http://www.wopular.com/lloyd-chapman-obama-administration-gives-bechtel-bettis-128-million-small-business-contract

Posted by: question-guy | December 17, 2009 12:32 PM | Report abuse

If this bill in the Senate was good for the consumer health insurance stocks would not be reaching new highs.

Kill the bill. The "Insurance & Drug Company Profit Protection Bill of 2009" is bad legislation.

Posted by: Maddogg | December 17, 2009 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Howard Dean is right on this most-important point, which Axelrod fails to acknowledge:

That insurers will be taxed immediately on Cadillac plans, from now until whenever, and insurers will pass those costs on to US, the taxpayers....so WE are essentially being taxed for these plans, even if we don't have a Cadillac plan...and yet the exchanges won't be available to us, in the form of competition, until 2014.

We are paying NOW for a benefit that won't be received until 2014!!!!!

HOW "INSANE" is that?!?!!?

Posted by: boosterprez | December 17, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Obama must play hardball. He caves in all the time. Everyone can twist his arm except the voters that want the public option.

We need options. A public option.

Posted by: Maddogg | December 17, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse

Obama can still cut off agricultural aid to Nebraska and economic and military aid to Israel. That will get some attention.

Posted by: Maddogg | December 17, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Easy for Axelrod to say. He is not one of the people who will be forced to buy insurance. I'll tell you, if I were the one being told I was a criminal if I didn't pay this blackmail, I would go to jail before paying (I have Medicare A, so I guess I am 'safe.')

Posted by: dotellen | December 17, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

Tell Howard Dean to go to hell. He would deny 30-40 million people healthcare coverage based upon his ideological views about insurance companies? What sense does that make. Everyone agrees that insurance companies are part of the problem. But refusing to support ANY healthcare reform just because insurance companies will continue to make profits is jusr flat out INSANE. And coming from Howard Dean, that is not so surprising. Yeeahhhgh!

Posted by: PepperDr | December 17, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

This is a perfect bill if you are an insurance company, drug company, or medical device company. If you are a consumer this bill allows you to get raped.

The US needs the public option now. No option, no bill.

Posted by: Maddogg | December 17, 2009 12:04 PM | Report abuse

No David, its insane to support a futile pablum policy like the supposed compromise this gutless president is willing to accept. It does nothing to address the core problem; insurance companies who raise premiums 17% per annum to fund their corporate junkets and granite office buildings -- not care for policyholders. Without a public option, I will personally throw the president and Congress I previously supported under the proverbial bus. It is insane to support traitors, and that is what you all have become. There is no commitment to the agenda you sold to the People. Your political death is at hand.

Posted by: seve2yoo | December 17, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Hmmmmmmmm...let me think...who do I trust... the guy that advises the guy that gives trillions to banks and war mongers or some one who stands on principle.....I think I will go with Dr. Dean...thanks but no thanks A-Rod

Posted by: reddy531 | December 17, 2009 11:57 AM | Report abuse

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