How'd the White House Know?

At the risk of being flamed, I must point out that you have a superfluous "about" in your first line. (Sorry.)

Xenu told Rove.

bc

Oops. Thanks.

You promise this is the last of the ROving? I mean, for a while, at least? Can't we talk about Maine? How was the lobstah -and I hope you got to stop by Gilbert's chowdahouse- best seafood chowder ever.

Tomorrow, I promise, we will talk about something totally different. TOM DELAY.

Oh, good. I can't wait.

Topics to discuss at happy hour: Taking over the blogging porch.

....

Totally joking, Joel. Tom Delay rocks my world. And I have more of an opinion on him than I do on Rove, so I'm on the edge of my seat here because I won't have to resort to posting about Haribo gummi bears replacing the mound of beans.

I hope this rovestorm stops soon because I left my rovecoat at home.

Oooh, so, instead of just sneaky, underhanded politics we could be talking about...attempted blackmail? Graft? (What's the difference?)

from Hullabaloo site:

ISIKOFF: But the problem that people in the White House, Rove among them, may have is how did they know that Valerie Plame, or Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? What we do know is there was a classified State Department report that said this, that was taken by Secretary of State Powell with him on the trip to Africa that President Bush was then on, and many senior White House aides were on.

That classified State Department report appears to have been -- or may well have been the source for the information that Rove and others were then dishing out to reporters. And if that's the case, there still may be -- we don't know yet, but there still may be an instance where classified information was provided to reporter

Here's the Newsweek story from last year about Powell's grand jury appearance:

Powell's appearance on July 16 is the latest sign the probe being conducted by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is highly active and broader than has been publicly known. Sources close to the case say prosecutors were interested in discussions Powell had while with President George W. Bush on a trip to Africa in July 2003, just before Plame's identity was leaked to columnist Robert Novak. A senior State Department official confirmed that, while on the trip, Powell had a department intelligence report on whether Iraq had sought uranium from Niger--a claim Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, discounted after a trip to Niger on behalf of the CIA. The report stated that Wilson's wife had attended a meeting at the CIA where the decision was made to send Wilson to Niger, but it did not mention her last name or undercover status. At the time, White House officials were seeking to discredit Wilson, who had become a public critic of the Bush administration. There's no indication Powell is a subject of the probe; the department official said the secretary never talked to Novak about the Plame matter.

sara - a coup d'etat? sounds like something to present to the sao15. maybe joel will be nicer in the future (i'll probably be summarily banned from the blog, but hey, small groups of people doing great things, power to the people, down with the great achenoppressor, etc., etc.)

What the difference between attempted blackmail and graft? Or what's the difference between talking about Rove and Delay. Because I can cover the first question. The second one I would ignore.

There's one other big question that no one seems to be asking:

Aside from the legal and political ramifications of Rove's actions, screwing over the CIA by outing an operative strikes me as a decidedly bad decision. Even if Rove avoids indictment, and even if both he and the administration avoid political fallout, the Agency strikes me as one of the few groups in Washington who know how to play hardball better than Rove.

The CIA will want it known that outing a CIA agent will have serious consequences, and my guess is that they will want to make an example of Rove to show what happens to people who betray them. Anyone in Rove's position has skeletons in their closet, and these are people who are experts at finding these things. I'd expect to see some interesting things about Rove leaked to various journalists from "anonymous" sources at Langley over the next few weeks.

I'm going home, ya'll. Have a great night. Drink some margaritas.

Sara: blackmail and graft.

I always think of Tammany Hall when I hear graft, so is it like bribery? Enlighten me, please.

If you want a non-Rove factoid, here's an article that explains why all animals get the same number of heartbeats - we just burn them at different rates: http://www.fractal.org/Life-Science-Technology/Publications/Life-on-the-Scales.htm

Graft is using someone's position to gain advantage or profit.

Attempted blackmail is failed blackmail.

And blackmail is using discrediting (is that my word?) information against someone in exchange for money or services or goods or something along those lines.

Now I'm going home. Y'all. I typed it wrong last time. Being from Texas you think I'd get it right.

Noah,

Isn't Porter Goss, the (fairly) new big cheese at the CIA, one of Dubya's many cronies? Any backlash at Rove would most likely be stopped before it starts b/c of this Bushite.

I think of Mr. Smith Goes To Washington when I hear the word "graft." I don't even remember if it applies, but I think Senator Payne was doing the graft thing to keep the land from Senator Smith for his Boy Scout camp proposal.

Oh, I'm completely wrong. And I'm fine with that.

OR I'm completely wrong.

That changed the entire post. Had to correct that. I'm with bc and whoever else about the formation of an editing system here.

From a Rove-hater, I posted this on the previous blog entry, but it belongs here, I think.

Well, this one will get lost in the sea of comments (sounds like a lunar landing site, doesn't it?), but here it is. Al Capone didn't get sent up for the murders, extortion, and violence; he got sent up for tax evasion. Rove isn't going to get nailed for his hideously partisan behavior, ugly neo-con policies and electoral shenanigans, but if he can get nailed for committing a felony, that's fine by me.

Whoever else? It was me! And the strange thing is, when I posted the statement, "We need an editing feature for posts," I was wisked away to the back room of the blogging software, where I COULD edit my post, and add an email hyperlink. Very weird.

Joel,

I never liked Marc Fisher much. I'm sure he's a good, long-time friend of yours that you compete with on a lot of fronts. But please, please stop with the Rovestorm! This is ridiculous. I guess that's your point (or your bosses' points).

Is that what this is all about? Or is that that when you came back was there a nasty note on your chair from Tom and Sydney saying, "look Achenflake, we got like 50 comments each blog-post-thingy without even trying. Proof that you have been canning this blog purposefully. From now on you have a daily quota of 100 comments. No exceptions; no self-posting."

Prosecutor's scenario: Rove is not the leaker, but knows who did and lied to cover it up. Thus - Build perjury case ag Rove. Then flip Rove to get - who? Libby? Where does that lead? Think about it.

Yea, jw did bring up the editing feature first. I was just seconding his opinion after mistyping another comment.

Noah, BC (the one with caps), and EDM bring up some interesting points here.

It'll be interesting to see how this develops and where it leads. If Rove is forced out of the Cabinet, will it really end his influence in the Adminstration and with GW? Think he'll get the Meet-Me-Line #s to his home email?

bc

One thing we don't know is what Rove said to the Grand Jury. Making a case against him for revealing the name of an undercover CIA agent is one thing. Making a case of lying to a Grand Jury is something else altogether. Much more clearcut and easy to prove.

videlicet:

(could I call you viz.?)

Thanks for the link. That is a great article and I will look around that website. It is a very Achenbachesque site. I think we could have an interesting conversation on the subject matter covered by the mouse vs. elephant article.

I suspect there is such an all-caps "piece just waiting to be written," and Patrick J. Fitzgerald yearns to appear on the byline. Fitzgerald just can't get anyone to 'leak' now, so he's stuck. He needs one last all-caps piece of the puzzle. He fully believes every testimony he's heard, but he knows someone in the thread knew Plame was an agent. Novak spilled his four or five beans in his op-ed, then spilled his guts to the grand jury, and still Fitzgerald can't fit it all together. Perhaps Novak made the connection on his own, which is why he's not behind bars. My guess is all's quiet on the Dub Ranch because they know Miller is the only one with Fitzgerald's grail.

It's all related. What hasn't Bush disclosed about Boulton? The answers to these same sorts of questions.

Whether Rove technically broke the law or not, it would seem a no-brainer that those kind of loose lips are unfit for access to classified information. Barely legal is the base standard. Regardless of their politics, I have higher expectations for public servants elevated to the level of trust Karl Rove has been elevated to. If Bush can't bring himself to fire him, that speaks a lot about Bush's inappropriateness to hold office as well.

My guess is the Bush Admin is AFRAID to dump Rove. He is one of the most aggressively yet quietly vindictive political minds in known American history. If they let him take the fall, I would not be surprised to see some interesting secret tidbits of the administration getting leaked to the media.

It's a lose-lose scenario for the White House. I can't say they don't deserve it. It's what they get for inviting the vampire inside...

Even if Rove did not know that Valerie Plame was a covert agent, he should have known that this was a possibility. Bottom line is that, at the very least, he had an obligation to find out whether she was covert or not before disclosing any information about her.

You know, the way the White House is reacting to all of this, one wonders if there ARE tapes. Really--Ken Mehlman was just on CNN saying that Rove "said he wasn't the leaker." That's NOT the same thing as saying "Rove wasn't the leaker." Note also the stonewall. Since when has this White House stonewalled like this in the face of questions? They normally just bend the truth.

"WHY" and "HOW" did Rove happen to have this information about Plame? Good questions!

I hope someone will also require Rove to explain his -reason- for apparently calling six reporters to tell them this. Why?

So far, Wilson's explanation is the only one that makes sense.

Oh, and one more thing...was it Rove's own idea to plant information with Novak et al? Was it Cheney's? Was it Bush's?

And did President Bush just fake his concern in 2003 when told that someone in his administration outing an undercover CIA operative? Or did Rove lie to him about it?

And, if Bush now knows that Rove lied to him--because it's now definitely known that Rove WAS one of the perpetrators--why does Bush still profess "full confidence" in him?

"Ah, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive."

Return to flight
Return to Flight

c'mon, spacejoel, there is one or two other things, just for today/tomorrow, then let us KarlRove again.

I have the secret tapes, but unfortuately I used them to record reruns of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

WOW! those are amazing questions! you know...the kind someone in the press could have asked TWO YEARS AGO!

it's cute how you folks are finally showing some interest in this story and patting yourselves on the back for thinking of good questions. there is absolutely no reason why this sort of heat could not have been brought two years ago after novakula's original hit job.

ignorance (of politics) is bliss.

Random question: does anyone fact-check letters to the editor? The one about Tom Toles' cartoon was pretentious and completely wrong (which is a really horrible combination). First, the writer condescendingly suggests that Toles doesn't know how to teach someone to tie their shoes, when in fact everyone knows that the "bunny around the tree" method is quite acceptable and correct. To give the writer some credit, it can also be used for teaching a bowline, although we're talking about a completely different tree and bunny. Then, the writer says that, "...of course(!)," what is needed is a square knot. Who ties their shoe with a square knot? No one!

Ok, I'm done ranting. Although I think the Post should give me a job screening letters for idiocy. I'm hoping that printing this particular letter was a sort of inside joke.

I wonder--what's the process for receiving Top Secret clearance? I know they have to have background checks run, but when the FBI or whoever says they're okay, does someone give them a super decoder ring and swear them to commit suicide before jeopardizing any top secrets (bottom secrets okay?)? Do they get a briefing on relevant laws and precedents?

I remember Bush made a big deal about suits in the Oval Office when he first entered office; did he make a big deal about all the staff sitting through a series of briefings on secrecy, non-discrimination, etc. etc. (like ordinary bureaucrats have to go through)? Or were they too busy complaining about trash in the offices and missing keys to get such orientation? Does the Executive Office of the President have any institutional memory or do they just reinvent the wheel with every new President?

About Joel's pal who knows a thing or two...too bad Joel's pal is an unnamed source.

And [Where are the Secret White House tapes when you need them?] Which speaks directly to Bob Woodward's book, "Plan of Attack."

Early in Woodward's book, at the start of Chapter 12, Woodward says the the New York Times was preparing a story in May 2002 about Karl Rove's increasing involvement in foreign policy decisions.

What expertise does Rove have in foreign policy? Exactly what foreign policy decisions was Rove involved in? Does this mean that the foreign policy decisions were taking on increasingly political aspects, since politics is Rove's forte?

Almost at the end of Woodward's book there is a telling passage: "Karl Rove had come to love Cheney....He [Cheney] had a sense of Washington, although in Rove's view, it was not always accurate. Cheney's filters were his personal biases and attitudes. One that Rove noticed was his obsession with al Qaeda, a 'real fever' as Rove too called it, agreeing with Powell."

Rove agrees with the moderate Powell? Is it possible that Rove leaked Plame's name to support Cheney and his war ambitions, regardless of the accuracy of the intelligence coming from the State Department, the CIA and Wilson?

Certainly there is a lot more digging and reporting to be done here. Perhaps Bob Woodward himself can add to the story--tapes or no tapes?

My six year old has no trouble tying his shoes with a square knot. I know this because I am continually retying them so that they don't fall off his feet.

Clinton screwed the American public, but Rove screwed the CIA. The CIA can't afford to forget, otherwise they'd be seen as toothless, and they're all about teeth.

The Discovery Times channel had a show on yesterday called, "C.I.A. Sexpionage." Coincidence, or conspiracy?

A thousand apologies to you, jw. See, I thought that it might have been you that originated the "editing feature" comments, but I wasn't sure. I feared that saying you were the one who started it (and being wrong about that) might imply that I think you're sloppy and SHOULD have been the one who started the editing comments and then those of us who made minor typos would just follow suit.

None of this is true, however. I simply forgot that you were the other one.

I don't even know how to tie a square knot...I was never a girl scout. I do tie my shoes sideways though, so the bow is parallel with the shoe. I've never taken the time to figure out how to change that.

I just tried to tie my shoes sideways, and I have determined that it is physically impossible. The only way you could accomplish this is if there was a rift in the fabric of space surrounding your foot. In fact, we may be able to use your method of shoe tying as a source of completely renewable energy.

Or, all your conclusions are wrong and you just need my grandfather to teach you how to tie your shoes wrong.

may i suggest velcro?

Well, see, I'm fine with tying my shoes sideways. It adds character.

Should we not be moving on to something way more important, like the Harry Potter book being sold in error?

Joel, we need input.

I meant move on from the Rove thingy. The shoelace thing is very interesting.

You really think we need input from Joel? The shoelace thing came about all on its own.

Ok, I was able to do it once. But was then unable to do it again. It was very complicated.

What's this about Harry Potter sold in error?

Here's an amusing site, the very end of the report refers to Harry Potter, but this report is worth keeping up with. I saw Andy Borowitz speak at the Miami Book Fair. He was on the same program as Gene Weingarten and Gina Barreca, so I felt sorry for him at first, but he really held his own--the guy is funny.

http://borowitzreport.com

The judge ordered them not to read it until the 16th, but there's no way I could restrain myself. I'd have read it by now. I am an adult that loves Harry Potter. I will freely admit it. With pride, in fact. I wish I were one of those 14 people.

Of course, I started reading them years ago when they first started and back then I wasn't an adult. Now I'm hooked.

Doesn't that seem a little silly? I mean, sure, those 14 people might read it and then give the story away to the rest of the world. But doesn't that ALWAYS happen with books anyway? If the review in the paper doesn't give it away, then people who have read it before you do. Too bad that the Canadian justice system is apparently part of Rowling's marketing team.

wow. the rovestorm has passed over this thread. the skies are clear and all the good people are back. i'd like to cast my vote for an editing system as well.

as for mr. potter, i remember someone telling me to read the first one and i didn't for a few months...thinking "i don't want to be like that" until, eventually, i did, and loved it! i haven't stopped reading them since.

As a caveat, I own all the Harry Potter books. I like Harry Potter the same way I like the O.C.

So was the Potter book sold in "error" because it was mispriced or was it like before when some "early" sales before actual release date occured. The latter was a manufactured event in order to increase the media attention (what is now referred to in the PR world as the new corporate welfare).

It's sad that I have time to find this stuff.

Bunny and tree on a really sad website: http://www.chasa.org/tyingshoes.htm

I like the OC. The parents are my favorite part, actually. I think Sandy Cohen is very tasty looking.

I think we all need new jobs. We're too easily distracted by bunnies, trees and shoelaces. And Harry Potter, but that might be understandable.

I've read all the Harry Potter books, too. I'm looking forward to the next, though I'm going to have to wait until my daughters get through it.

Fun yarns, even for "adults" like me.

On a side note, when I went to see "Madagascar" in the theatre a while back, I saw a preview for a live action version "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.". I'm not a big CS Lewis guy, but it looked like fun.

bc

Even if Rove IS forced out or removed from the White House in some way, I'm quite sure he will continue to be "in the background," either though the RNC or some other, more shadowy organization. And he might be MORE dangerous/effective in that other role.

Even if he were in prison, I could see him pulling strings.

And, yes, Porter Goss IS a W crony.

Go to the Center for Cooperative Research web site, and look up where he was the morning of 9/11.

Nothing is an accident.