Karl Rove: National Treasure or Spawn of Satan?

Well played Achenbach. Mike Isikoff of Newsweek served you this perfect opportunity when he broke the Rove story. And you hit that fastball down the middle right out of the park. I must admit that generating more comments on your first day back than the previous week back to re-trench yourself in the blog is impressive though.

i`m one who believes in hating rove full time,you see his dirty tricks squad cost john mccain the presidency,had mccain got the nomination,he would have been elected hands down by the american people,as a matter of fact had mccain gone 3rd party bush would not have won.this means there may not have been 9/11,or a divided american,a war, and most importantly no evil person as rove who will join lee atwater in hell.close to 1800 dead for a phony war.

Golly, Joel, National Treasure or Spawn? Gee, both movies sucked sooo bad! Ridiculous, wildly improbable plots so convoluted that they failed even to entertain on the lowest level. Hidden messages, secret cabals, or John Leguizamo in a fat suit. Hey, it's K. Rove after all- got to be Spawn of Satan!

I like this blog better when it's not about politics. Who wants to talk about Tom Cruise again?

Dear Bob Johnson: Does the Rove Hating job come with medical benefits? Because I'm thinking high blood pressure might be an occupational hazard.

We need Google to link to us again. I dream of a day we get 1000 comments. Then, someday, ONE MILLION COMMENTS.

With a headline like that, this blog will get more hits than a paper mache fiesta donkey at a 4-year-olds birthday party.

It will be bad if I have to post comments myself to drive up the number of comments. That's what Fisher did, you know. NOBODY commented on his blog, he just made up names to make it look like someone was reading that stuff. He literally had zero comments. [He may be mad at me for denying that I slept on his couch. I did, in fact, sleep on Marc and Jody's couch many times, because I was an unbelievable loser.]

John Leguizamo in a fat suit? I might want to see that...

Joel, it really isn't more than a "hill of beans", but like having sex with a staffer in the White House (also not more than a "hill of beans", except maybe to his spouse), in an administration that has bullied and lied to all opponents in a manner greater than any in recent history its a hill that people can finally grasp hold of. Most political scandals haven't been over momentous policies, like Iraq should be, but over stupid, small and usually arrogant actions by those who think they are invincible. In short, Rove is a guy who has steamrolled over a lot of people, and now they see a chance for comeuppance...or revenge, take your pick.

Besides if the exact definition of 'sexual relations' can cause impeachment, then the exact definition of 'exposing her identity' might as well cause a similar uproar. I don't think any of these people are inherently bad (few people really are) so you're not going to find a truly malicious and 'evil' scandal very often. So we settle for the hill-of-beans variety - which is not to say we shouldn't take them seriously. I'm just saying let's get over the idea that something has to be bigger than a hill of beans for it to matter these days. Apparently it all matters, so let's go from there.

This just in: President Bush has nominated Rove for the Supreme Court.

Right you are about the beans, Joel. I figured Rove was in cahoots on Plame from the get-go. But even I can see that the information we have so far doesn't necessarily prove that Rove knowingly outed a covert agent.

I'm curious Joel, what are you thoughts on the format of the HR derby last night? Why not just line up the guys who have the most home runs? The guy from S. Korea has like 38 total! I'm all for inclusion, but meritocracy please.

I think your statement was on target, even tho' it hinted at the Rove thing being a molehill. But, the deeper meaning lies in the probable building of that mountain of evidence proving Bush to be the most dishonest, most secretive, and most dangerous President in history. As a former Republican, I am literally more afraid of Bush et al than the terrorists.

I personally need to see more evidence against Rove before I fully formulate an opinion on this that takes a stand on one side or the other. Maybe he did it on purpose and he's sly enough that he was able to make it look accidental. Or maybe he idiotically blurted something out, like when you accidentally tell someone about their surprise party. Granted, idiotically blurting THIS out is a bit more serious than telling someone about a surprise party.

Oooooh -- you called me thoughtful. You like me. You really like me. (Sorry, couldn't help myself. It was crying out for snideness.)

It is going to be a bumpy ride, though, if things keep coming out drip, drip, drip regarding Mr. Rove and others and this whole intertwined mess with the issue of weak intelligence in the lead-up to Iraq being raised in every news article on the subject. Still wondering if Judy Miller will spill the beans and, if so, on whom they will land. Still wondering about the status of Mr. Rove's security clearance. Still wondering if Scott McClellan can speak without a sweaty eye twitch after yesterday's bruising. Appreciate the clarification today on your end. Chalk my misinterpretation up to too little coffee and a morning spent with the crankiest of toddlers.

Hey, Baggins, be careful joking around like that; there will be people flying into the blog today who might believe you. Did you see John Kelly's column this morning? Check it out:

I'm partial to the occasional satirical column. Why? Well, while most people have something in their bodies called fascia -- a type of fibrous tissue that joins skin and muscle -- I have facetiouscia. In other words, I was born this way.

Please, if you ever doubt something that you read in my column, please don't hesitate to send me an e-mail . . . or call me . . . and ask.

That's what one person did after reading the faux "Hints From Heloise" a while back. This reader thought it was a bad idea that we had recommended people sign all their new checks the moment they arrived in the mail as a way to save time.

All together now: Kidding!

I'm with you- the real story is the war mongering from the Oval Office. Don't get me wrong- Rove is about as big a slime as any in history. He takes Machiavellian to a new level. He would sell out his mother if it meant a jump in the polls- and not even a big one, maybe two or three points. But like anyone else, he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

What we know is that he sent Matt Cooper an email advising that Joe Wilson was not working at the behest of the WH, but instead at his wife's behest (whether that is true is another story- I don't think one goes to Niger looking for uranium all willy-nilly without at least the approval of the upper echelons, but for these purposes, let's just assume that Rove was telling the truth). In the text of the email, Rove did not name her, nor did he suggest that she was a deep cover operative. Instead, he described as an Agency employee working on WMD issues- phrased that way, it sounds as though she could have been a midlevel analyst sitting calmly behind a desk in Langley.

The war, as you note, was well underway. The war, as we have learned, was a fraud perpetrated on the world by a cabal of criminals. Their goal was achieved. The leak did nothing to perpetrate the fraud, nothing to press the cause, nothing but embarass an outspoken critic. Like you say, a few beans.

Of course, what matters most in politics is the subtext- that which is not explicitly spoken but clearly implied. The law, however, looks to the explicit act. If he knew that he was explicitly outing a covert op, that constitutes a crime. This one email that we know of is too much in the grey zone to be definitive. There are more questions yet to come- was he Novak's source? Was he Miller's? What, if anything, did he tell them? (BLOGPIMPING- I have very complex opinions on the free press issues in this case, which I wrote about on my blog, http://detocqueville.tgof.org/2005/07/judy-miller-goes-to-jail.html).

I suspect that there is more to this than Rove's version. He didn't actually name her in the email- if that were all there was to it, the WH would have done the full disclosure, "See, there's no there there." But of course, when put in a "tough spot," Scott McClellan refused to answer anything. The refusals were far more telling than they let on- as always, it's the implicit, the subtext, that matters most.

The thing about the the Plame leak vs. Iraq is that the former will likely have a pretty clear line to a single person who's to blame. As it is, Rove seems like the guy. The trouble with Iraq is that it's too big an event. The entire administration is possibly to blame and there's a lot more information to organize and the chain of events is more contentious. It'll be easier to prove that Rove is the sleezeball at fault for Plame. It's only a few beans, but at least you can hold them in your hand.

Joel; I much prefer your treatise on the porch and on Costco to comments on the war. It seems that any glib (thanks, Tom Cruise) remarks on the war by someone who so clearly recognizes its terrible consequences comes across like Bush scouring the Oval Office in search of WMD for the WHC dinner. It's just not appropriate.

The news is so depressing as society is devolving quick enough to be noticable but not fast enough to be really exciting. I'd like to think of your column as a refuge from that.

regards,

Well, if spawn of satan doesn't get a supreme court nomination, he'll probably get a metal.

Which national secret would you trust him with if it could be used to help Bush?

What kind of beans, Joel? Kidney beans? Green beans? Lima beans?

One thing wrong with your question - Did he know it was against the law to oust a CIA operative? - strewth as we aussies say read my lips "IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE" - he should be given the OB (order of the booth) to youse all

I think you're missing the point. If the question is, does it matter? then the answer is a big fat YES, it matters, for a few reasons that i will get to, all of which have nothing to do with this criminal intent garbage that you seem so hung up on and which, to me, sounds more like something that a judge or a jury will have to look into. As many people have already pointed out, what's at issue is that Rove outed a covert agent of the united states in order to smear a political enemy. That may be a dispicable thing to do, and it may be a crime (see: your humdrum reservations), but the most disturbing aspect of it is that I'm not surprised. This administration has created a culture where this type of behaviour is the norm, not the exception. Having read the article in today's paper, which defines the major issue as one of the administration's credibility being undermined, I had to laugh because since, it seems to me, the agents of the White House have never been forthright and accountable regarding any issue; any action they've taken, nor any statement they've made. In order for one's credibility to be undermined, you have to have credibility in the first place. That media such as your newspaper still use irrelevant words such as credibility with regard to the White House is an embarrasment and does a disservice to your American readership.

You are right Joel. This little hill of beans is nothing compared to the Bush decisions that were based on information portayed to the public as solid (like, "Iraq has substantial chemical weapons.") that turned out to be completely false. Decisions that have led to the deaths of thousands of US service people. Rove is just a pretender to the kind of important lies that should lead this president to impeachment.
Unfortunately, much of the press has failed to continue pushing on the bigger issues, so some of us who are desperate for any little bit of justice overreact when the press finally pushes this administration.

What are the four countries in African that produce yellowcake for uranium:
Niger, Gabon, South Africa, and Namibia

In early February 2002, the Pentagon's Defence Intelligence Agency wrote and distributed an "intelligence product" based on new information about Niger's "agreement to sell 500 tons of uranium a year to Baghdad."

How many bombs does 500 tons of uranium make?
About 50.

How much uranium does Niger produce in a year?
Independent reports say that Niger's two mines produce only three hundred tons in a good year.

Anything else we need to know about those Niger mines?
An Oct. 6, 2002 a CIA memo faxed to the White House conveys the information that one of the two Niger mines that contains uranium oxide was flooded and the other is under the control of French authorities.

Did Vice President Cheney repeatedly push the Niger case forward? Was Cheney directly or indirectly responsible for Wilson's trip? Even more importantly did the CIA brief Cheney on Wilson's report, or did Cheney get the report in a broader distribution and read it? Do we know the answers to these questions (and they are extremely important)?

How did the allegation of Niger selling uranium to Iraq end up in the British Sept. 2002 dossier, which the U.S. cited as the source of its information? Did the original forged documents come from Italy's military intelligence service, Servicio per le Informatzioni e la Sicurezza Militare (SISMI)? Were the 22 pages of photocopies of the alleged Niger deal made available to the U.S. Embassy in Rome by Italian journalist Elisabetta Burba, a reporter for the weekly Panorama, owned by the right-wing Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi? Has the United States distanced itself from Italy as the source of these documents? Why has the FBI been unable to interview Rocco Martino, alleged to have been the person to have passed on the forged documents? Why has CBS's 60 Minutes not yet shown the 30-minute segment it produced on Rocco Martino?

How were White House speechwriters able to insert the Niger claim into Bush's 2003 State of the Union address ( and who was the person who did?) and did these speechwriters borrow the information from the CIA's problematic 2002 National Intelligence Esstimate and the September 2002 British dossier? Why did Bush and his administration make such a strong claim in the 2003 State of the Union address based on such shaky evidence?

Was the entire Niger affair a fiction cooked up by Western intelligence services? How long will the second part of the Senate Intelligence Committee's report on the White House role in the pre-war intelligence mess be on hold? Will a Republican-dominated Congress ever call a special counsel to widen its probe to include White House wrongdoing and Vice President Cheney's role in the pre-war WMD fiasco? Will we ever see the results of the FBI investigation into the origin of the Niger documents that was requested by Senate Intelligence Committe vice chairman Jay Rockefeller two years ago?

Yes, Joel is right, readers. The Karl Rove story may be only a three-bean affair. But the three-bean Rove trail is the tip of the bean pile--the mountain of legumes it leads is what's so very significant. And the bigger the pile of beans, the smellier it gets.

Strewth, taliana4551, I'm an Aussie too! G'day, luv! (or should I say "mate"? -- sorry, dunno if you're a bloke or a sheila)

Sara, just because you asked-

www.tegneseriemuseet.dk/ film/film_tegneserier.htm

I think the resemblance to the Turd Blossom (GWB's real no kidding nickname for KR!) is evident.

I'm putting up plywood over the windows.

Wow, Joel's putting a lot of stuff (Satan, Rove, beans, ReddHedd, etc.) into the Achencellerator since he's returned.

Has he gotten the right mix to get another level 5 RoveStorm? We shall see, but my intital take is that the comments to this point agree with his position, just to varying degrees.

Perhaps a bit more antimatter is needed.

C'mon you strident GOP/Administration supporters -- get your dander up, and let's light this candle!

bc

BC: Yeah, where are they? I mean, I know technically they are on vacation in the Hamptons, and in Jackson Hole, but don't they have Web access there??

As a matter of fact, yes, I think the Rove "outing" of Plame matters as much as the disastrous decisions made in the Oval Office.

For one thing, given all that we've read and been told about how tight Rove and Bush are, it's a bit disingeneous to act as though there's some huge divide between Rove's actions and Bush's actions.

I have to admit that the reminder that Bush, Senior previously fired Rove for an unauthorized and damaging leak back when Rove was an adjunct of Senior's Administration makes it all look less conspiracy-theory and a lot more like Rove is just another political hack who has been skating on thin ice for a long time.

I figure that it's too hot and humid for Joel to hang on the porch. This is so not a porch kind of day to me.

I'm tellin' ya. Karl needs to hear this:

Oompa, Loompa, doom-pa-dee-do
I have a perfect puzzle for you
Oompa, Loompa, doom-pa-dee-dee
If you are wise, you'll listen to me

What do you get when you guzzle down sweets?
Eating as much as an elephant eats
What are you at getting terribly fat?
What do you think will come of that?

I don't like the look of it

To add to Linda's comments, yellowcake isn't even a big deal. Un refined uranium is extremely common in some countries, and the process of refining it to something that could be used in a weapon is very long and technically involved. So even if Iraq was buying yellowcake, it was more of a red herring than a real reason to go to war.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2085848/

i've found the worst part of surviving a rovestorm is the insane amount of lengthy posts. i don't want to have to read ten paragraphs for each achenpost. you should be careful what you wish for, joel...once we get up to a million comments you'll have to introduce TSA-15000 to keep things exclusive.

kurosawaguy, I couldn't remember what I asked for until I was there. Wow. That might be the scariest picture I've ever seen. I laughed, but in a timid, somewhat scared way.

I fail to see how Iraq has anything to do with this. I agree on the point that whatever point about the "yellowcake" theories being right or wrong, Reddhead was right. The disclosure of an active CIA operative was a boneheaded thing to do. Remember, she worked in the area of WMDs. That could have included Iran, Pakistan, and India in addition to the work she conducted in Africa. (Pakistan's nuclear scientist network showed that each country's development is not isolated.) Any contacts or information she was pursuing in those areas are now compramised. At a time when our human intelligence is at it's weakest against nations where it's never been more important, this was a stupid thing to do. Shame on Rove for spilling the beams, shame on Novak for selfishly publishing it.

i will admit, a hill of jellybeans (or, even better, sour patch kids) sounds mighty tasty right about now.

Counting Wilson, Oberman et al. as four or five beans is like counting your readership as 27 because only that many readers posted. The reason that we are in Iraq is because we don't have humint over there. Contrast our quality human intelligence in China. Though the Chinese and Koreans have more yellow cake than Niger, our quality humint in that sphere prevented our invasion, so far. Outing what little humint we have over there is tentamount to spreading WMD.

More particularly, don't they have internet access in Kennebunkport or other places in Maine?

bc

Joel,
Glad to see you're back -hope you enjhoyed visting our fair state. I also hope you didn't deplete the lobstah population too much.

As for rove, I'm eager to see how this plays out. Could this be the flap of the butterfly wings in mexico that causes the monsoon in DC? possible. Does anyone really think this is the only time Rove has toed the legal limits in his bosses' name?

Or a hill of Haribo gummi bears. I have champagne tastes--none of those cheap imitation gummi bears.

We have no internet access in Maine. In fact, we don't even have phones. We use smoke signals.

kurosawaguy, i don't remember what you asked sara either, but was there really a comic book hero called the sub mariner? was he a submariner or a SUB-mariner, like a ken griffey jr substitute? maybe he had the power to beckon bat boys to do good...

Does it matter? Of course it matters.
Is it connected to larger and weightier matters...like the descision to go to war?...of course it does.

The outing was prosecuted to put a lid on Wilson...or for hardball retribution to intimidate other potential naysayers on the reasons for the war (the weightier matter). Wasnt the Nigerian connection disputed and discounted by Wilson and hence...?

It is all connected. Rove was protecting his master's derriere...which is fine...as long as he is not doing so in a criminal as well as morally repugnant and unethical manner.

Hear, Hear, Joel. *I* appreciate your fair-mindedness. I wish there were more of you out there.

I still don't see proof that Rove knew that Plame was a covert agent whose ties to the CIA were classified. I'm not saying that he was playing a straight game; we all know the White House (in any administration) is full of slimy people playing political games. It is just a horrible side effect that real people and policies have to get screwed on the sidelines. And in this case it was a doosey!

OK, so now they've started advertising Tucker Carlson's show at the top of this Web page. Should we be getting worried?

edward, I wanted to see John Leguizamo in a fat suit. If you go to that page you can see a very disturbing picture of John Leguizamo, but fat and painted with scary teeth.

I´m in Eurovia now so missed much of the leadup to this latest example revealed, albeit too late, of Bushite perfidy. Rove should twist slowly, slowly in the shallow water as the media sharks dig deeply in his sodden flesh. Then get fired.

It matters. This news--that Rove himself was part of the campaign to discredit Amb. Wilson by leaking his wife´s identity--would probably have cost the election for Dubya if it had been revealed before Nov, 2005. Kinda like Watergate might have, but I´ll settle for the Watergate-like destruction of the Lame Dubýa´s second term.

Bring on the Supreme Court nomination! I´m kind of looking forward to a discussion of Alberto Gonzalez as the nominee--and the expansive view of executive prerogatives he has shown in advising regarding the internment of supected terrorists and sympathizers. Notwithstanding the phony complaints of right-wingers about his views on the litmus test, this will be the nut of the debate.

mmmm.....homegrown tomatoes...mine are green yet, but in a week or so, look out!!!

Karl Rove is a genius. I'm not sure there's much disputing this matter on either side of the aisle. Were not so adept at manipulating events for the benefit of the White House, he wouldn't be so hated by liberals.

Here's one for ya: Make a speech about Liberals being soft on 9/11 to put Dems on the defensive about security. I don't think he sincerely believes that, but it caused a media shi*tstorm that caused dems to cower and crow about their platforms.

His tactics of overreaching to present a very farfetched idea (nuclear option) only to "compromise" and get what you were after in the first place.

I think Rove's spin backfired on him this time. But that's only because he didn't have enough control of the wagging dogs, McClellan and Bush, who are on the record being contradictory to Rove's involvement. Had McClellan and Dubya kept their traps shut, Rove would be more than capable to spin this to the Administration's advantage. He still may be able to, but it's unlikely.

In most conventional martial arts (from boxing and wrestling to Kung Fu and Kali/Escrima) the core strategy for defending against multiple attackers (or attacking multiple defenders) is to aim for the weakest link first. Rove just happens to be the weakest link in the Bush administration right now. Never mind whether the charges being lobbed his way by the Dems are fair. Sometimes being too fair-minded is noble, but sometimes it just allows aggressive people (like Bush and co.) to walk all over you.

i once saw a delicious red haribo gummi bear sitting on a ledge overlooking the large atrium next to the columbia sq metro entrance to metro center.

http://dredwerkz.com/images/50

the weird thing was that it was behind a sheet of glass, and about two stories up in the air. so someone must've been on a really tall ladder, enjoying gummibears, and dropped it, inside the building.

hahahaha! edward, if I weren't at work and in a skirt, I might be rolling on the floor.

I might have to go to world market and get a 3-pounder of haribo now...

mmmm...gummi

I agree that the War in Iraq is a whole lot bigger than this one leak. Lest we forget, the rationale for the war has been changed many times. And then there's this story of Bush planning to invade Iraq even before he was elected President.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-01.htm

Excerpt:
According to Herskowitz, George W. Bush's beliefs on Iraq were based in part on a notion dating back to the Reagan White House - ascribed in part to now-vice president Dick Cheney, Chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee under Reagan. "Start a small war. Pick a country where there is justification you can jump on, go ahead and invade."

Bush's circle of pre-election advisers had a fixation on the political capital that British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher collected from the Falklands War. Said Herskowitz: "They were just absolutely blown away, just enthralled by the scenes of the troops coming back, of the boats, people throwing flowers at [Thatcher] and her getting these standing ovations in Parliament and making these magnificent speeches."
[snip]

Now, Rove isn't mentioned by name but he's been advising Bush for a long time now...so he is almost certainly (truly madly deeply) involved in the decision to go to war.

We're all wondering which, among many things, is the most newsworthy: Rove, O'Connor, Iraq, Bush, Afghanistan . . . why does Darfour get zero press time? Genocide is a phenomenon we study in history courses when we cover e.g., the holocaust. It's happening *today*, whether or not Bush will admit it, in Darfour. Even though I think this business with Rove is disgusting, I am far more saddended by the fact that MTV cares more about speaking out against genocide than our commander in chief.

Maybe the six degrees of separation principle applies just as much to blogs as it does to people -- how many blog comments does it take to get from Karl Rove to gummi bears?

(Sheesh, Dreamer, way to kill the moment by posting a trivial, inappropriate comment.)

About 58 comments will take you from Rove to gummi bears, I think. The oompa loompa comments may have moved that a long because oompa loompas have connections with candy...it all escalates.

naughty little bears...

[url] http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/cat/2139/display/724228 [/url]

Here's what we have so far: Bush and his buds decided that we needed a war in Iraq BEFORE 9/11 occurred; Bush and his buds lied to the people of this country, the Congress and the United Nations about the EVIDENCE that Iraq had WMD; Bush and his buds intentionally ignored the requests of qualified generals re the need for a larger military presence in Iraq, costing who knows how many lives; Bush and his buds intentionally drafted a policy that allows U.S. military to torture POWs; Bush and his buds intentionally drove the country into a major deficit status in spite of advice NOT TO DO IT; Bush and his buds intentionally exposed a CIA agent in the field to punish her husband for telling the truth about the non-deal for uranium.

and the brilliant Republican response to all of this..."what about Clinton and Monica?"

for my money, Bush and his buds need to go. Impeach Bush now!

Um, Bush is one of the few world leaders who will call what is happening in Darfur "genocide", so why don't you BACK OFF saddended.

Ouch. I'm feeling a little static shock in here.

Joel,

How could anyone accuse you of being a White House apologist? You're clearly a Lefty! And how could anyone accuse you of being a Bush Basher? You're clearly a Right-wing wacko.

Ahhhh, political discourse.

How did you ever navigate the waters in 2000? Is covering a campaign just fundamentally easier to navigate partisan-wise than commenting on a sitting President?

[ And then there was some hostile stuff ("your just a bush backing, ignorant, lame press man") that I don't need to go into.]
You missed a chance to be snide. It's "you're, not your."

Joel, Thanks for correcting my atrocious spelling errors yesterday...it's a good reminder to stop firing off missives when I'm all stirred up. Welcome back--and 'out' Rove. /idm

silly sara! that's what the stairwell landings are for: offical skirt-rolling areas. no one ever goes in them anyway, in my office, except for me.

we definitely need a revision to godwin's law in here: something about how many posts before the regulars get annoyed and begin to fight back at the cat4 rovestorm with posts about gummi bears, semi-colons and the like.

What do you mean maybe Rove didn't know she was covert. She was *covert*, which means that no one knew she was CIA unless they knew she was covert.

Everyone not "in the know" thought she had another job. Like Maxwell Smart and his job as a greeting-card writer.

I would just like to point out that Gene, if his chat is any indication, is seriously considering a blog (which would not be named such), which would have as its central purpose getting his readers to hook-up. Could a blog arms-race be in the works?

Whether or not it can be legally determined that Rove committed a crime is one issue and this will be a great brain teaser for those among us who are still trying to figure out what the meaning of "Is" is. The larger issue is that for the last two years the White House has emphatically stated that that Rove had no involvement whatsoever with this incident and it turns out that he did talk with at least one of these reporters. Well, this straight talking, Christian, family values Administration just lied, a pattern of deceit that begin with the Iraq war. You state that this amounts to 4 or 5 beans, but it's going to take more than a few beans to fill the White House credibility gap.

Bob Novak is an SOB and a member of Opus Dei, that Catholic Fascist group. I think he should be imprisoned.

Whether Rove is a criminal or merely a treasonous hack is in itself irrellevant. This story amounts to more than a "hill of beans" solely because it has the potential to divorce the media from four-plus years of misty-eyed apologism for this administration. There has been no urgent need to investigate the veracity of Bush claims regarding WMD in Iraq, Iraqi- 9/11 links, the "last throes" of insurgencey in that country, the value of the "patriot act" in preventing terrorism, or any of the hysterical warnings that have issued forth from the WH Press Room since the beginning of the "war on terror." The American People have been fed the party line by a complacent and irresponsible media that has refused to challenge Bush's claims and created a befuddled and ignorant public. But as yesterday's fireworks in the WH pressroom suggest, some reporters have apparently taken these lastest lies and distortions personally. If nothing else, this event may signal the return of actual American journalism, rather than the tired regurgitation of so-called facts.

Hey! No putting the words fascist and Catholic in the same sentence! What is this, the 1700's? Stop blaming us Papists for your problems.

I will admit that I don't know much about covert agents. But I'm guessing Rove doesn't either.

Rove had to find out from someone what her role was. I'm guessing it wasn't Wilson who told him the story. It probably passed around the administration a bit before getting that high. Think the "telephone game." Somewhere along the way, the bit about Plame's covert status could have been lost. I'm just sayin'...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/40469/display/724224

I have reached the conclusion that Joel is totally wrong. Here's my thinking on the matter. The second term Monica scandal distracted the Clinton Administration from focusing on Usama Bin Ladin and that led to the 9-11 attacks not being prevented which they otherwise would have been. Likewise, we are now on the brink of a blow-up in the Middle East involving the use of nuclear weapons and the distraction of Plame-Blame-Game will weaken and distract this Admistration, thus allowing an otherwise preventable nuclear disaster to occur on Bush's so called watch...because if things can go wrong they usually will. That's my two beans worth and I stuck with them.

Hugs and Kisses,
Moi Moi

mr bush controls the press.
how else could he turn the word invasion of Iraq into the word the war in Iraq?

mr bush controls the press.
how else could he turn the word invasion of Iraq into the word the war in Iraq?

As a recovering Catholic, I don't have a problem using the words "Catholic" and "Fascist" in the same sentence.

Mussolini didn't.

bc

I meant "Mussolini didn't either."

bc

I think that the reason that this is becoming the huge story it is has little to do with the facts of this particular case. Whether Rove did this intentionally or not is irrelevant, as neither Ms. Plame nor anyone associated with her work was hurt or killed.

Rove isn't going to jail, and it's likely he won't be fired. If he is fired, rest assured that he'll be just fine with his book deal and Fox News contract.

This is a big deal because it speaks to an abuse of power that political observers are wary of. Rove used his position of power and influence to advance the President's cause with little to no regard for the spirit of the law (even if he stuck to the letter of it). It's a question of standards of conduct, and on the question, regardless of his intent, Rove has yet again failed to meet a minimum standard of conduct that should be expected from a high ranking White House official.

Tee hee, "recovering Catholic"; I like that. I guess that's what I am, too.

I'll see all of you in hell.

Step back - senior advisors to Presidents are important.

Their advice is important because of its impact on the country. They need inside, even classified, information to offer policy advice.

Once we agree Rove is important to Bush and his power derives from that closeness, then what Rove does matters. Bush chose his role. Rove is virtually an agent of Bush.

In an increasingly secretive administration, classifying even Dept of Ag documents, Rove's leak is even more reprehensible.

Accountabilty, while a long shot, is needed. Legal and political weasel words do not cut it with me.

this is going to hurt me....but i believe your reasoning on the war and rove at this time is correct...

Where did you put the poll?

I'm voting for Satan's spawn.

So, a CIA agent got outted. It's an occupational hazard. She knew the dangers when she went into that job. So, a journalist goes to the slammer because she won't snitch on an informant. Again, an occupational hazard. If you can't do the time, don't write the story in the first place.

Political stories bore me to death. Why don't you expound on really important stuff like the new baby panda, whether Demi Moore is pregnant, the big secret in the latest Harry Potter book, or how do those anorexics get the will power to not eat anything. I get all my really important news from supermarket tabloids. Administrations come and go, garbage goes on forever.

First of all, she never even WROTE a story. And I'd say the Executive Branch biting its own tail is a pretty good story any day.

Wow WASP! Are you doing an impression of Ann Coulter? Impressive.

Yeah, keep watching Tom Cruise and Michael Jackson on the TV and let these thugs go on spending YOUR money, killing YOUR kids, and making a mockery of YOUR Constitution. If you would rather be ignorant, you are partially to blame for what they get away with.

Moi Moi wrote:
"Likewise, we are now on the brink of a blow-up in the Middle East involving the use of nuclear weapons and the distraction of Plame-Blame-Game will weaken and distract this Admistration"

Don't ya see, that is just what we want! This administration is like a bull in a china shop. Tell me one thing they've done that is considered "good" or "right" for anyone making less than $200K or the rest of the world? Maybe if they are distracted we can get through the next three and a half years without a nuclear war, or worse...

There are two huge problems with this administration. One, Karl Rove, who holds too high a position for what his skills are- politics. He sees everything in terms of politics. Political maneuvering, political infighting, political winning, political destruction, it's all politics to him. He knows nothing about statesmanship, governance, history, civics. Just politics. And Bush and most of the rest are businessmen, so they run the White House like CEOs. Their policies are 'products' they have to ginn up good 'commercials' to sell to the public. That's all it is, crap to sell to the public, make us decide we want it, need it, believe it. Put on that big smile and chummy manner so we'll think what great guys they are. And like corporate CEOs, much of what they do is in secrecy. Joe Blow buying their product doesn't need to know the details behind it. And they too have little knowledge of statesmanship, history, governance, civics. A very smart poltical street fighter and a bunch of CEOs. No wonder the rest of the world is scratching its head.

bodybydada wrote:
"I'll see all of you in hell"

Only if they have good margaritas. I just can't stand a place if it doesn't serve a decent margarita.

I am surprised no one went back on the Darfur Genocide comment.

Wow, Bush used the correct term. Bully for him. We are supposed to back off on that because he called it the right name?

Does that mean he shouldn't have had his party threaten the Nuclear Option on Filibustering because he can't pronouce the word?

The greater question is what is he doing about it? And that would be exactly (hmm... carry the 2... divide by no political capital going in there...) zero.

Does anyone else feel just a little bit bad for little scottie mcclellan? I mean, here he is, shoved in front of a decidedly non-friendly crowd, and the only answer the big boss man will allow is no answer at all? I mean, I bet he's thinking to himself "this isn't what i signed up for" Maybe he'll go all jerry maguire at the next press corps briefing.

Now I know what you're all thinking.....that I'm gonna FLIP OUT or something, but no, no.....

hey, i think that was a segway to talk about tom cruise again...

Did you intend it to be? Or is it just a happy coincidence?

Did you intend it to be? Or is it just a happy coincidence?

Oh, I was so proud of the fact that I'd never been a double poster . . .

It comes back to that whole six degrees of separation thing. Or the holographic nature of the universe. (Actually, they're probably related. Or the same.)

happy coincidence, of course - but it would be funny to see mcclellan freak out at the press corps.

I really wish Tom had posted that Dumb Tom Question about the nature of coincidence . . .

Not that I want to fall prey to the Tom and Katie discussion, but has anyone else noticed the creepy "minders" that she has?

"So, Katie, how do you feel about Tom?"
"Well--"
"She adores him!"

Wow. K, that's all I'm going to say on that topic.

I'd feel bad for him if it got to the point that he freaked out on the press corps. That doesn't mean that it couldn't be funny. I'd just feel bad for him.

I have a "Free Katie" shirt, which I plan on wearing all the time.

I was in NYC over the 4th, and cam across a Scientologist-sponsored street-fair. I had to repress my urges to start screaming about how they're holding poor Katie captive.

Tom Cruise, Tom Shroder . . . . There's another coincidence right there.

jw...you're going to smell.

Do you think Katie believes in the aliens too?

It's a sacrafice I'm willing to make for my cause.

She may have already met them, LP. Hanging around Tom, you never can tell.

We need a feature where you can edit your comments.

Woah...when I made that last post, I was swept away to an alternate blogoverse! It was crazy, in a Being John Malkovich sort of way. Is that what it's like to be Joel?

Don't look now, guys, but I think the RoveStorm is over.

jw: Yes, I went there too. It was like some sort of gate. And oh, the colors . . .

Cavalier. Happy now? I think Karl Rove is the antichrist but I'm with you on this one. No rush to judgment. Wouldn't that be a refreshing change? Maybe if we do it, the Republicans will follow.

I knew if enough of 'em looked at that Leguizamo pic, they'd loose interest.

Is it antichrist or Antichrist or anti-christ...

Cool beans, I got a shout-out from Joel.

What was the old saw about Vietnam? We lost the war because of the Watergate "distraction?" So we're supposed to learn from that lesson and not let the leak investigation "distract" our national focus from the war on terrorism? Is that the idea?

The truth is that the so-called lesson of "distraction" during times of war is not a lesson at all; it is a point of rhetoric that war hawks use nearly as often as they attack the patriotism of people who disagree with the war.

It would be dishonest to come to Rove's defense without acknowledging the four main issues connected to the leak investigation:

1 - Was there a crime committed? Not enough info.

2 - Was the leak an act of retaliation against Wilson? Not enough info.

3 - Has the White House been less than forthcoming about Rove's involvement? YES

4 - Was national security compromised? YES

It seems clear that Bush will have to remove Karl Rove if the President stands by his word that he would fire whoever the source of the leak is, lest he desire to invite more troubles into his administration.

I think I went there, but it said "Bad Gateway." It wasn't a pleasant experience, and ended up in a double post.

I think all three are fine . . . maybe.

Rovestorms are scary. My eyes start to cross when so many peole are posting here. John Leguizamo in a fat suit? Genius!

No! No! The Rovestorm is back! Take me back to the Bad Gateway!

I spoke too soon. Maybe we could talk about Cavalier King Charles spaniels? Or The Laughing Cavalier?

Joel, the observation that Karl Rove's revealing information at the end of the conversation with the report renders it less significant or less indicative of some intent perplexes me. If Mr. Rove had the purpose of revealing the information, he might have ended the conversation only after achieving that purpose. In addition, I cannot count the many conversations I have had in which I only get to my most important point at the end of the conversation. Sometimes it takes a process to get to that point, especially when the issue contains a confidential or sensitive element.
Second, I think the importance of this issue is that Mr. Rove's tactic is corrosive of the normal processes that work to shape decision-making. This particular act has the elements of revenge; lack of regard for greater values and national interests; disregard for the the law; and insulation from political challenge or counter-attack on any substantive merit that makes it particularly dangerous to the system.

Can't say I really feel bad for McClellan, he's doing his job, albeit under tougher than normal circumstances. You gotta wonder what he knows and how much he really wants to say.

On the other hand, maybe the oxytocin tanks that spray into the White House press room have suddenly run dry, and McC knows it.

As far as Hell goes, I'll make sure you all have seats near me at the bar.

Unless we're already Here.

To follow up on Dreamer's thought (I think), our own realities are what we make them and what we observe. Some people's jobs are to give others input that makes them believe one thing or another in absence of direct Observation.

Truth, opinion, ideas, faith, and reality, are all just metaphors for waves in the Higgs Ocean. Choose which ones you want to surf carefully.

bc

On Rove, Joel is in fact "TOTALLY WRONG." Here's why: Bush promised two years ago that anyone involved with the leak would be fired. He repeated this pledge one year ago. It is on the record:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/12/politics/12rove.html?ei=5094&en=722d41bfc0b4802a&hp=&ex=1121140800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

Therefore, Bush himself elevated the matter beyond "four or five beans," and guaranteed big consequences. Whatever the courts decide concerning the legality of Rove's maneuver, the legality is irrelevant insofar Bush has already promised Rove will lose his job, period.

Meanwhile, Joel linked to an article by Eliot Cohen that I agree with across the board.

http://www.geocities.com/johnleguizamo_site/foo1.jpg

Well put, bc. I'm with you on the Hell thing, too. If there is in fact a Hell, it is something that exists here on Earth, created/observed by Earth's inhabitants. (I'm not sure where the C-Y aliens and the sea monkeys on Tempel 1 fit into my theory, though. I keep telling myself I'll have this whole meaning-of-life thing figured out within the next few weeks, but it's taking me a little longer than I originally thought. In the meantime, pass me another margarita.)

Last week I had an appointment to see my psychiatrist, and at the end of the session I asked him about his take on the Tom Cruise situation.

It turns out that they went to grade school together for a couple of years, and he gave less than a stellar review of young Tom. As a practicing psychiatrist, he would have been a great talking head on one of the cable shows. It's that human interest stuff that keeps them tuned in. He politely declined to seek out a venue to defend his profession, figuring that Cruise had done enough to discredit himself. It would be more productive to defend a screen door from a birdbath.

I think Joel was mad at us for liking marc so much, this is his nefarious plot to remind us who's in charge here, and if he has to question our loyalty again it will be nothing but rovestorm from here on in.

We didn't mean it, Joel! Imean, we just get so crazy sometimes!

NOW can we go back to porches and letting joel brag about golfing with bob woodward? please?!

I think he's not blogging again today so that he gets more comments on this blog. He's become a blog comment whore. (I mean this in the nicest way possible.)

My father went to school with Nicole Kidman's father. He saw him at a school reunion several years ago, when Tom and Nicole were still married, and apparently Nic's Dad was all, Tom this, and Tom that. My Dad thought, Hmmph, I wouldn't be so proud if MY daughter were married to Tom Cruise. At the time (i.e., before we all knew how wacko Tom could be), I thought, Gee, Dad, speak for yourself. Today, I realize just how right my dear old Dad was. Which is a good lesson for Joel's little Achengirls at home: Your father is always right.

Knowing this could get me banned from blogdom, I have to admit that Marc's blog on everyone's win/loss ratio with the Nats was gold.

Joel, what's your average on that score?

the aliens are the ones with the segways, right?

cleary, the eye of the rovestorm has shrunk since yesterday. i don't know if that means the overall size is increasing or decreasing, but there were only about 20 posts before we hit the other side again...

That's right, edward. They actually only have one leg, which makes it difficult for them to walk around town. That's also why they only ever steal one sock at a time from bc's laundry.

(The aliens, I mean -- not the posts.)

Karl Rove in a fatsuit!

www.hoffmania.com/ blog/2004/08/

or maybe Seed of Chucky, I'm not sure....

Is the Rovestorm really over? Ah, c'mon, everybody. Come back and play. I finally got my rubber boots on, and everyone's gone home already.

OK this time it really is KR in a fatsuit!

http://www.mind.net/basile/truthtrollop.jpg

Oh, kurosawaguy, that is just awesome.

There's something I want to say about that picture...but it's really rude. So I won't. But dang, it's tempting.

"Truth Trollop" is funny, though. Almost as funny as "Turd Blossom."

We haven't had a real Rovestorm yet this week. We needed the Google link. Guess who got the Google link: Howie. Like Howie needed more glory. The man is a media empire. In any case I'm about to post another Rove thingy and then there will be no more Roving for a while, probably.

My last post didn't post...

I could say something really rude about the subject of that picture, but I won't. Because if, by chance, someone came by who looked even the slightest bit like that, they'd be horribly offended and I'd feel really awful.

"Truth Trollop" is funny, though. Almost as funny as "Turd Blossom."

One hopes that your cost-benefit analysis of ousting Saddam vs. the damage from war includes the thousands of dead Iraqis and the destruction of their country. You can throw in being totally counterproductive in the stated goals of the so-called "war on terror" (i.e., domestic security).

Oh, and now they both post.

Here you go, Dreamer.

There's extra salt and lime, if you want it.

Anyone else want a drink? This one's on me.

I have a toasts to Karl Rove, Tom Cruise, Katie Holmes, all of us humans and evolving sea monkeys. None of us are as smart as we think we are or have as much control of the universe as we think we do. But we all hope, love, think, sacrifice and dream of better. To all of us, in our divine imperfection. Cheers!

bc

We really need an edit on these comments.

bc

Okay, so I have to admit to reading about half of these comments. Most of which say something like "JOEL, YOU ARE SO WRONG, THIS MATTERS."

Well, but I don't think he ever said it didn't matter, just that in comparison to everything else that this administration has done, it sort of pales.

And, okay the hill of beans still stands, but if you are equating that to not mattering, I don't think you read the post closely.

However, I do enjoy a good summer rovestorm, with the high pressure systems colliding left and right above me. Those are some good boomers. Think I'll go out to the porch and listen for a while.

This is juvenile, high school horseplay. Wilson is a partisan hack, and his wife is an idiot savant for arranging the trip for him - maybe she can't spell nepotism.

Miller is unenlightened - she wasn't developing another Watergate story - this is an inside the Beltway soap opera - she should have revealed her sources and gotten it over with.

Your estimate of 4-5 beans is an exaggeration. Must be a slow news week.

Well, this one will get lost in the sea of comments (sounds like a lunar landing site, doesn't it?), but here it is. Al Capone didn't get sent up for the murders, extortion, and violence; he got sent up for tax evasion. Rove isn't going to get nailed for his hideously partisan behavior and electoral shenanigans, but if he can get nailed for committing a felony, that's fine by me.

At a moment like this, it seems best to actually look at the law, rather than speculate, so here goes:

50 U.S.C.A. § 421
United States Code Annotated
Title 50. War and National Defense
Chapter 15. National Security
Subchapter IV. Protection of Certain National Security Information
§ 421. Protection of identities of certain United States undercover intelligence officers, agents, informants, and sources

(a) Disclosure of information by persons having or having had access to classified information that identifies covert agent

Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(b) Disclosure of information by persons who learn identity of covert agents as result of having access to classified information

Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified information, learns the identity of a covert agent and intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

(c) Disclosure of information by persons in course of pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents

Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such individual's classified intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(d) Imposition of consecutive sentences

A term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be consecutive to any other sentence of imprisonment.

gwbush has surely set in motion more
far reaching decisions...the tilt is
on for increased exploitation of all
natural resources...reduction in the
social support systems...moving the
tax code to reward the winners more...
playing the international diplomacy
game without much regard for longer
consequences....politically the gop
are in control of the national gover-
ment...so they should be held to the
record....too bad the american press
has become so sedated....the donkey
party is trying to climb out of the
hole...it seems they may benefit from
a major rove mistake....the wh press
corps has let the bush bunch run long
and far...it may still find some true
grit and perform its public function...
.....the american presidency is truly
very important to all the world...the
current occupant is sadly falling
short of historical highmarks........

Here's what my above comment was supposed to say:

Here you go, Dreamer.
(pouring margarita at the HellBar on Tempel-1)
There's extra salt and lime, if you want it.

(to the TSA-15, friends and family in the HellBar's friendly environs)
Anyone else want a drink? This one's on me.

I have a toast: to Karl Rove, Tom Cruise, Katie Holmes, all of us humans and evolving sea monkeys. None of us are as smart as we think we are or have as much control of the universe as we think we do. But we all hope, love, think, sacrifice and dream of better. To all of us, in our divine imperfection. Cheers!
(all drink)

bc

Cheers, bc.
You know, I was in Starbucks this morning, and the song playing in the background had the word "cavalier" in it. Whoa.

Trolling: Thanks so much for the compliment. I love Ms. Coulter's work. I love rattling the cages of flaming left-wing liberals. They're such poor losers, so it's easy to rattle them.

I wish I could say I drove a Chevy Cavalier...

On second thought, no I don't.

Hey, have you been talking to former Washington Wizard Larry Hughes?

bc

Ha! (I had to Google former Washington Wizard Larry Hughes to get that -- I'm sports-illiterate.)

One of the many side effects (wanted or unwanted) of being a guy is an affinity for competition/sports.

Happily this saves us guys the trouble of meeting on a mountainside in the springtime and ramming our heads together.

On the other hand, perhaps we'd have a better national health care program if we did.

bc

bc: you are so right about the mountainside. I can't tell you how much better I feel after yelling insanely at a sporting event. My wife always psychoanalyzes "why" I seem so "angry" at the game...but I keep saying, "would you prefer that I joined a militia and participated in simulated war all the time?"

And WASP, I was being sarcastic. I hope you were too, cause it's incredibly pathetic to have Coulter as your idol (and this coming from me, a conservative). It's even more pathetic when you do a cheap ripoff of her manufactured media persona.

irregardless:
It's all about the catharsis.

bc

Hey, bc, that sounds like a line from some profound poem, or a song lyric.

I thought it sounded lyrical as well,
but where I heard it, I can't tell.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

bc

Hey thanks for the link to the Eliot Cohen piece.

You mortals. Always with the "either/or" questions! Like National Treasure and Spawn of (Yours Truly) are mutually exclusive. Ha!

Let's review: Somebody like Rove rises to power where and when somebody like Rove CAN rise to power. (Go on, read that again. It's sensible.) Rove is Rove NOT because he exhibits the qualities of Rove-ness. (Plato is dead. And he's doing just fine down here with us, thank you very much.) Rove, were he alive in a different place and time, might just be another camel herder in the desert. No, Rove is Rove precisely because you Americans build up delightful specimens like him.

On the one hand, that's good -- I could always use the help. On the other hand, I can't get any other Demons in the Rough in metro DC to proceed with their training and development, because Rove is sucking up all the air in the space just now.

The point is, you're missing the point. Rove is neither National Treasure nor Spawn of Satan; he is the Satan-Treasured Spawn of a Nation!

Hi Norman, how do you know Bob Novak is Opus Dei. Today "Rove and the Wilsons attend the same church." What church is that? Same one as Bob Novak, Robert Hassen and Louis Freech...Opus Dei? What's this Rove is the weakest link? He's so effective in W-ville that the Dem's have to get him one way or another. I heard Monica is on weight watcher now, honing for the job. What's this feeling sorry for Scott Maclenen? Didn't you notice how quickly his predecessor quite upon W's re-election? The predecessor could not stomach the lies that came with the job.

sorry. this item belongs here -

He (Rove) also used an assumed name to gain access to the campaign headquarters of Democrat Alan Dixon, who was running for state treasurer. Once inside, Rove grabbed campaign stationery and later used it to print fake invitations to the grand opening of the Democrat's Chicago office, which he distributed to homeless people on Lower Wacker Drive.
People showed up in droves, lured by the free liquor, food and women that Rove had promised on the invitations. Dixon won anyway, but Rove's chicanery came to symbolize what would become a win-at-all-costs ethic that eventually permeated the state's Republican culture
The scumbag that did this in the name of politics is our president's right hand man. Who is running our country again?

I say let Rove stay. It just cements the legacy and mediocre record of an administration blinded by hubris. Rove must have believed his own press clippings. Brilliant, mastermind, Bush's

When you start with a false premise you end up coming to a false conclusion.

Time for a fact check: Plame was NOT a covert agent for over 5 years, there is a very clear definition of "covert" in her employment handbook which took her out of that status two years after her last assignment; her 1040 lists the CIA as her employer - coverts get their paychecks and 1040 from an accounting firm; every family member and neighbor knew that she used to be covert but ended that years earlier; her husband outed her in his book before Novak did because he knew she was no longer under cover nor eligible for covert status.
So this really is less than a few beans.