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Gay Cowboys Galore

The hype over "Brokeback Mountain" got us talking around the house about Hollywood westerns, and specifically about John Wayne.

"Who?" the kids asked.

"John Wayne."

Silence. To their ears, this was just a random person with two first names.

I was appalled. I'm all in favor of kids seeing movies like "Brokeback Mountain," which will teach them to be tolerant and supportive of alternative lifestyles, and to understand the great historical drama of How the West Was Won and Subsequently Decorated. That said, I think we should first lay down a solid foundation -- a base line -- of extreme homophobia, jingoism, fear of the Other, and a psychotic rapaciousness toward the natural world. Just like we grown-ups had!

See, kids today are being robbed of the great spiritual journey that comes from surmounting prejudice, because they don't have any to begin with. They emerge from the womb as egalitarians, wildly open-minded and completely unable to discern the labels that adults have assigned to various groups of people. It took me several years to explain the concept of "white" people and "black" people. Now we have the first gay cowboy movie, and my kids haven't even had the chance to see any hetero cowboy movies. This is where the Duke comes in, strolling into our tale like a club-wielding Neanderthal from a diorama at the Natural History Museum. The kids should know: Once upon a time, this was what we meant when we talked about "a man."

The Duke had many of the most acclaimed virtues of his era: He was hard-working, patriotic, gruff and looked plausible on a horse. He was as strong as an oak, and roughly as limber. He stipulated to his agent that he would accept only roles in which he carried a firearm. He was always whipping out his pistol to kill a bad guy or an Indian or an enemy combatant or someone who was standing around making fun of his acting.

In truth, his lack of range as an actor made him seem all the more authentic and studly. A real man didn't prance around and yap at the mouth and preen for the camera. John Wayne spent a lot of time on the screen doing very little other than looking rugged, with his brow furrowed, and an expression that seemed to say, "I'm fixin' to kill the next fella that tries to make me say any big words." In later years especially, he tended to look pained, as though he'd just discovered that he was the only conservative left in Hollywood.

Naturally, I had to show the kids a John Wayne movie. We went to the video store and settled on "Red River." Directed by Howard Hawks, co-starring Montgomery Clift. The teaser explained that John Wayne plays a cowboy who takes his massive herd on a long cattle drive. Perfect: A cowboy movie with lots of cows.

A little ways into the movie, the young Montgomery Clift makes his first appearance, playing "Matt," the adopted son of the John Wayne character. He sort of . . . slinks around. Pantherish. Boy, he's one pretty cowboy.

Another handsome young man, played by John Ireland, shows up and wants to join the cattle drive. Matt bristles at the newcomer, but it's clear that the two lads are instantly fascinated with each other.

"That's a good-lookin' gun you were about to use back there. Can I see it?" the Ireland character says.

Matt hands him his gun.

"Maybe you'd like to see mine."

Whoooaaaaaa, dogie!

There's more like that -- flirtatious comments about Matt's gun. Mock hurt. Why did the new guy want to go on the cattle drive? "Just a notion I had, then Matt turned me down. Made me want to go. Besides, then I took a liking to that gun of his."

I was practically shouting at the screen, "Get a room!"

Later I found out from the Internet what every film buff and "Brokeback" reviewer knows: "Red River" is famous for its suggestion of homoerotic behavior on the range. The "gay cowboy movie" has a long history. All those men in tight jeans and leather chaps! Long boozy nights around the fire! Nary a woman for 300 miles! And as for the Duke -- was Matt really his adopted son? Why does he get so mad when Matt turns against him? Could it be . . . the rage of the spurned lover?

Clearly we need to review all of the Duke's movies for their subliminal gay content. How well did we really know this person we called John Wayne -- a man whose real name was Marion Morrison? Might his entire oeuvre be a thinly disguised ode to unfettered man love? Could he have been a much better actor than we thought?

Let the rumors begin.

[This is the Sunday magazine column. In today's paper, Ronald Shafer has a tribute to the ailing Art Buchwald.]

By Joel Achenbach  |  March 4, 2006; 10:21 AM ET
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'Butch' Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. The name says it all.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 4, 2006 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, that's a good one, yello. I remember seeing The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (wasn't that the name of it?) and not caring for it much. But I was a crazy fan of Bonanza as a kid...Sunday night, 9 p.m. The hour was sancrosant.

Posted by: Slyness | March 4, 2006 12:29 PM | Report abuse

John Wayne always got his man in the end. That's the important thing to remember.

The Duke was no sheepherder. He hardly ever was on the lam. And he was hardly ever sheepish.

Posted by: Russ | March 4, 2006 12:37 PM | Report abuse

But seriously. Some (but not all) of Wayne's presumptions, of what being a Man is all about, still hold up today. Things like, since actions speak louder than words, why bother with a bunch o' yammerin'? And "judge a man by his actions, not his clothes or his face" (or his money, either) holds up purty well, too.

This sort of rock-solid approach to practical morality is also referenced (some would say more successfully) in the Louis L'Amour books.

A curious factoid I read a while back pointed out, however, that Louis L'Amour books are the number one favorite series in prison.

Posted by: Russ | March 4, 2006 12:44 PM | Report abuse

This is so weird: just last night I said to my husband that "All of the new movies this year are just remakes of old movies. Well, maybe except Brokeback Mountain... but maybe I just didn't watch all those Westerns carefully enough and it's just a remake, too."

And now you tell me I was right!

Posted by: TBG | March 4, 2006 12:48 PM | Report abuse

When I was in college I had a couple of gay friends who claimed that films and television shows are full of slyly subversive homoerotic themes. I have no idea if this is true. Some of their examples, like “Spartacus,” I could believe. They lost me, though, with Burt and Ernie. I’m still making up my mind about Batman and Robin. I require clarification of certain issues regarding the bat-pole.

Posted by: RD Padouk | March 4, 2006 12:58 PM | Report abuse

There's a movie called "The Celluloid Closet" that has some interesting insights into this topic:

Posted by: kbertocci | March 4, 2006 1:12 PM | Report abuse

I'm back, after totally embarassing myself and making everyone uncomfortable, that's just me. If means anything to me, I put my whole heart in it. I know you guys probably would think I'd lost my mind if I tried to change. Love ya.

Can't see movies until they come out on DVD because the theatres(?) don't have close-caption so all I can do is look and not hear the movie. And I suspect there are some that may take offense at your suggesting John Wayne maybe walked on the wild side. He was not my favorite cowboy. I believe he was quite vocal as to his feelings concerning some folks. I like westerns a lot, but one really has to settle for the old ones, and that's not a bad thing.

Posted by: Cassandra S | March 4, 2006 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Cassandra, we've all Achenembarrased ourselves from time to time - not to worry. Personally, you didn't make me uncomfortable, except for knowing that you were upset.

I do not like John Wayne at all. My dear husband loves his movies, though, and exclaims with delight, "John Wayne marathon on AMC!" or wherever...I prefer Jimmy Stewart or Henry Fonda or Gary Cooper or Clint Eastwood...and the horses, of course...not to mention Paul Newman and Robert Redford (purrrrr)...

Posted by: mostlylurking | March 4, 2006 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, mostlylurking. I was upset, very upset, and still feel a little weepy, but I'll be okay. There are so many situations and circumstances in this life, and in the world, that one could cry a river or an ocean. God will heal my heart and give me comfort through His Son, Jesus, as He will all of us. There was a time in my life when I only thought about me, and what I wanted, but accepting Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, has changed so much of that. I'm not perfect, none of us are, but Jesus loves me, and in my imperfect way I love Him. And not only does Jesus love me, but He loves all of us, and God would have it that all men be saved, that's why He sent His Son to be sin for us, that's why we have the Cross. He died so that all might live. What a mighty gift of love that is!

Posted by: Cassandra S | March 4, 2006 1:57 PM | Report abuse

Cassandra, my daughter has significant hearing loss in both ears due to frequent infections complicated by a deformed eustachian tube. Anyway, because she can't hear well enough to follow a movie in a theater, we watch a lot of DVDs at home. We crank 'em up, which makes for an interesting experience for the rest of us. Thank goodness for home theater! And as for being embarrassed, I am pretty sure everyone here has felt that way. Heck, for me it's a daily event. And at leat nobody out there assumes you are, like, a paid assassin.

Posted by: RD Padouk | March 4, 2006 1:59 PM | Report abuse

Sorry about your daughter, Padouk. I hope there is something in the future that might help her with that. No, I am not a paid assassin. My computer did go crazy yesterday during that time, and went completely off without me touching anything. I couldn't get back online for awhile. It was a little scary. I feel like when we make these statement online, no matter the format, someone is probably aware of this activity. Yet I was expressing what I felt, and it was the truth, so for me that's okay.

Posted by: Cassandra S | March 4, 2006 2:22 PM | Report abuse

My brother's second wife was from an Oklahoma oil family. There was a family ranch. On the ranch, there was what they called "the big cabin"--what an objective observer might call a "lodge"--it was made out of logs but it was bigger than a lot of houses. In the living room of the big cabin were two portraits, on either side of the fireplace. On the left, John Wayne. On the right, Ronald Reagan.

Inlaws. What can ya do.

Posted by: kbertocci | March 4, 2006 3:03 PM | Report abuse

I'll add a third voice to mostlylurking's and RD Padouk's statements that there's no shame in being Achenembarrassed. We have indeed all been there, me included. What's great about the 'boodle is that everyone is so forgiving and open-minded.

As for Ernie and Bert, I'm thinking maybe they had no genitals [or should I say "have"? Are E & B still around?]. The gay/not gay discussion doesn't really apply to them. Their shtick was based on Bert's grouchiness and seriousness versus Ernie's chatty, fun-loving persona -- that was the extent of their "relationship." That and the fact that Sesame Street is a *children's program*.

Still, I'm not sure about Ernie's relationship with that Rubber Ducky . . .

Posted by: Achenfan | March 4, 2006 4:47 PM | Report abuse

Ah, yes. The Wild West. Where the men were men and the sheep were anxious. "Are you my da-a-a-a-dy?" (Sorry, but sometimes I just can't help using the old lines. The first is an oldie but, well, an oldie and the second is from Robin Williams talking about the Falkland Islands.)

Posted by: pj | March 4, 2006 5:02 PM | Report abuse

I haven't seen Brokeback Mountain so can't comment on the manliness, or lack thereof, of the main characters. (Other than they're definitely Real HOT Men!) However, most men I'm attacted to, I've noticed, either seem gay or ARE gay. Does that make me a Real Woman? Or am I secretly a GAY MAN? (I better take another look at my old diaries and try to read between the lines...)

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 5:41 PM | Report abuse

I think it's quite understandable that a woman -- even a Real Woman -- would be attracted to a gay man. After all, your stereotypical gay man [not that there's such a thing as that, and I'm probably digging myself into a hole here] goes to more effort with his personal appearance than do a lot of heterosexual men, e.g., Homer Simpson, or the guys who get makeovers on "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" (their apartments are so disgusting!)

And if those gay guys on "Queer Eye" are anything to go by, gay men can cook, shop, decorate, and plan romantic getaways. And they probably don't leave their socks and undies on the floor or burp loudly.

Besides, whether you are a gay man or a straight woman, an attractive man is still an attractive man. If you *weren't* attracted to attractive gay men, then maybe you'd be a gay woman -- does that make sense?

Posted by: Achenfan | March 4, 2006 6:02 PM | Report abuse

I think you can make almost anything gay if you try. All it takes is men actually interacting in any manner at all.

Posted by: Wilbrod | March 4, 2006 6:03 PM | Report abuse

achenfan, how is day to day life in HK?

Posted by: newkid | March 4, 2006 6:06 PM | Report abuse

It's true, Achenfan. I like the gay/metrosexual look because they're just PRETTIER. And smell better. So maybe that DOES make me a gay woman...

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Sirin, your comment reminds me of Reese on "Malcolm in the Middle". He was attracted to a lesbian girl. He worried he was gay. He asked his big brother Francis about ahem ahem. Francis sighed and his speech went sort like. "When you're in the shower, whom do you visualize?"

Posted by: Wilbrod | March 4, 2006 6:17 PM | Report abuse

>And at least nobody out there assumes you are, like, a paid assassin.

RD, it's ok. I mean, at least it's not like it's just a hobby or something.

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 4, 2006 6:19 PM | Report abuse

Willbrod, don't even get me started on that. I have to get back to work now, but let me know when Joel starts writing about Fiona Apple again. ;)

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 6:25 PM | Report abuse

Thank for asking, newkid. At this point day-to-day life is mostly about waiting at home for deliveries and service guys (phone, cable, etc.), and shopping for various household items to tide us over until our larger shipment of sea freight arrives. But I've also had the chance to get out and familiarize myself with the neighborhood and with the locations of various stores, the post office, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, etc. Most of what we need is easily obtainable and relatively inexpensive. The language barrier can sometimes make things a little complicated, but it also has its humorous aspects.

We live on the 38th floor of an apartment in the "mid-levels," which is halfway up Victoria Peak. Most days I head down to the "Central" area via the mid-levels escalator, which runs in the downward direction until 10:00 a.m. and then runs uphill for the rest of the day. (When it's not running in the direction you're going, you use the stairs -- great exercise!)

From Central, I often get on the subway (an incredibly clean and efficient system) and head for some other neighborhood. I tend to gravitate toward Causeway Bay, because I'm familiar with it from last time I was here, and it has a lot of shops and good places to eat lunch.

So many of the establishments around the mid-levels escalator are magnets for expats/"gweilos" ["foreign devils"]. Last night (Saturday) when we were coming home from dinner, we noticed that the bars were packed with Aussies, Brits, Americans, and Europeans -- hardly a Chinese face in sight. At one point when we were on the escalator, my husband whispered, "Look behind you." I wasn't sure what to expect, but when I turned around I saw a man standing there drinking a glass of red wine whilst talking on his mobile phone. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Speaking of mobile/cell phones, I am now the proud owner of one -- by my count, that leaves only two people in the world without a cell phone: Bob Levey and kbertocci.]

Posted by: Achenfan | March 4, 2006 6:31 PM | Report abuse

One "waiting" would have sufficed in my second sentence above.

[Why do I keep repeating words like this? Still, I won't beat myself up about it too much. I recently discovered that Einstein used to repeat himself, too -- he'd say things once to get them straight in his own mind, and then say them again for everyone else's benefit. (Note: That is the full extent of any resemblance I may bear to Einstein. I definitely ain't no Einstein.]

Posted by: Achenfan | March 4, 2006 6:39 PM | Report abuse

Another SCC:
38th floor of an apartment BUILDING, not 38th floor of an apartment.

[Probably more TK.]

Posted by: Achenfan | March 4, 2006 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Yep, there are more, but I'm going to call a truce at this point; it's just getting too Achenridiculous.

Posted by: Achenfan | March 4, 2006 6:44 PM | Report abuse

A women at work once told me that the ideal man is one who can help a women transform herself into who she wants to be.

Posted by: RD Padouk | March 4, 2006 6:59 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, sounds neat, have you met any of your neighbors?

Posted by: newkid | March 4, 2006 7:14 PM | Report abuse


38th floor? That's must be quite a shock from your time in DC. We don't have that kind of thing around here, as you well know. I can't imagine living in a building that tall. (John Hartford wrote a song called "In Tall Buildings" that I'll have to dig out and give it a listen.) How long is it going to take to get your belongings delivered? It's quite a haul from where you were to where you are.

Enjoy the city, Achenfan. I hear it's a great place. Very different from DC. Very capitalistic. You should be able to find great deals on things you like. My brother got some excellent prices on clothing when he went over there on business. There must be great prices on other products as well. And I suspect there will be things you have to pay a premium for. As compact as Hong Kong is, they must have to import a great deal.

Enjoy it and let us know how you are.

Posted by: pj | March 4, 2006 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Sirin, get thee to Brokeback. It's a great movie. But like Capote, not exactly a laff riot.

Posted by: Achenbach | March 4, 2006 7:17 PM | Report abuse

When I was in college, a friend and I used to get crushes on guys - then we'd find out they were gay. So it became a running joke with us, if we were attracted to a good looking guy, we'd assume he was gay. I have to admit that these days, I have trouble telling what persuasion someone is, and am too shy to ask (since I don't really think it's any of my business, usually)...

Posted by: mostlylurking | March 4, 2006 7:23 PM | Report abuse

pj writes:
Ah, yes. The Wild West. Where the men were men and the sheep were anxious. "Are you my da-a-a-a-dy?" (Sorry, but sometimes I just can't help using the old lines. The first is an oldie but, well, an oldie and the second is from Robin Williams talking about the Falkland Islands.)

pj, I want to piggyback off your post historically. In ancient Windsor, Conn., one of the first pastors (if not the first--have to check my notes) was Rev. Warham. Rev. Warham had children, and one son in particular. This one son was accused of bestiality. Some have said that the charge/evidence of bestiality against Warham's son was flimsy at best. Never mind how solid or flimsy the evidence. The charge had been laid and the case had been made. Warham's son was hanged and Warham tried to never look back in a world back then when the laws were written in black and white with so few shades of gray.

I don't know why this story--from the book where I learned it--has stayed with me more vividly than the other stories of ancient Windsor, Conn., that fill the other several hundred pages, but it has. But old Joseph Loomis had his day in court at one point, too. A funny story.

I would post more, but I am tired. Sometimes my schedule is mostly empty, and lately it is too full. I have been to a meaningful event today where I was perhaps the only liberal in a room full of staunch conservatives--only politics wasn't discussed much, but the last 70 years of military medicine was.

I'm in an extremely quiet, pensive mood this evening. I learned quite by accident that a dear friend, whom I haven't seen in two years, lost his wife, who was young--in her late 40s or early 50s, from complications from a second surgery for colon cancer. I hadn't stayed current with Kurt; I didn't know. I want to have lunch with him soon because I know I can make him laugh. As soon as I mentioned Kurt's name today and the sad tale to my husband, my husband thought I'm ready to run off with Kurt because now there's "an opening"--which is funny and tragic in itself. I can console Kurt because we both share such a passion for art and for color and composition and we see the world from much the same perspective. We are kindred souls and my husband just doesn't understand that. Oh, jealousy and envy.

Back to Wayne and being macho. To be a man, must one be warlike--since war was very much the theme of my afternoon? For some time, not too long ago, to be manly it was assumed one had to smoke. The real John Wayne--Marion Morrison (yes, I was aware that Wayne had a stage name eons of time ago)--was killed not by a bullet, but by cigarettes and lung cancer. We Loomis family know Wayne, but not personally and not well--sis worked at his tennis club after college, and we saw his big house (on the shore, but not on the island) often enough from Balboa Island, where my sis rented small spaces for several years while at Irvine.

And mostlylurking, how *IS* our friend Aaron Brown doing? We lost Peter. I wonder if Aaron has given up cigarettes yet? Heaven knows I promised to throttle him on more than one occasion if he didn't.

Posted by: Loomis | March 4, 2006 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Tomfan--Thanks for the recommendation of Old Souls, Tom Shroder's book. I bought it several months ago, but hadn't read it until you mentioned it a few days ago. Anyway, I really enjoyed it. It was worth reading just for the story about the Springsteen song.

Also, if you (or anyone else) hasn't read Joel's aliens book, it's well worth reading--in spite of the cover.

Posted by: OK | March 4, 2006 7:31 PM | Report abuse

More on John Wayne:

If moviegoers believed in "John Wayne," why shouldn’t Marion Michael Morrison believe in him too?

The year of Red River and The Sands of Iwo Jima was also the year that "John Wayne" began speaking out on political issues. In Gary Wills’ view, Wayne began to speak his mind only when it was safe to do so, when the opposition had already been defeated. "To step in then," Wills writes, "was joining the bully, not an underdog."

The early 1950s found America fighting a Cold War, hunting for Communists in Hollywood, finding an alternative to movies in television, and concerned about the effect something called rock and roll was having on their children. Wayne, a rock too steady to roll, did his best to support the first effort, made one of his dumbest movies, Big Jim Mclain, in support of the second, acknowledged the third by casting "teen idols" like Ricky Nelson and Fabian in his films, and avoided the latter, turning down CBS-TV’s offer to star in their new series, Gunsmoke, by recommending they cast one of his proteges, James Arness, in the role of Marshal Matt Dillon instead. Except for filming an introduction to the show’s debut episode, Wayne’s only acknowledgement of the new medium’s popularity came with a few guest appearances on some of the more popular shows of the day, including I Love Lucy.

No one knew it at the time, but The Shootist, directed by Don Siegel, would be his last film. In what can only be considered perfect timing, John Wayne’s swan song was released in 1976 during the summer of America’s bicentennial. As J.B. Books, a gunfighter slowly dying of cancer, he played scenes that he had already played for real, and would soon play again. The late 1970s would be more notable for his failing health than his films.

In 1978 he had open heart surgery, in 1979 his stomach was removed to prevent the spread of more cancer, and when he was introduced at that year’s Academy Awards, a gaunt figure only vaguely resembling John Wayne appeared to present the best picture Oscar to The Deer Hunter, a film about Vietnam bearing no resemblance to his own film of ten years earlier.

A giant was about to fall.

Later in the year, cancer struck again, and President Carter paid him a visit in the hospital while Congress debated whether or not they should issue a medal in his honor. They did. When he died on June 11, 1979, flags were flown at half-mast throughout the country in recognition of an American legend.

In real life, Marion Michael Morrison was anything but a war hero, having avoided service in WWII to focus on his career. Yet on-screen, "John Wayne" is the ultimate hero, the very embodiment of bravery, justice, and strength. He has been dismissed as an actor time and time again, yet he played his roles so believably that the facts of his life were made irrelevant by the image on the screen. And no one embraced the image of "John Wayne" more than the actor who gave him life.

Marion Michael Morrison is dead, but John Wayne lives on and on and on. As immovable as a mountain, as pervasive as the wind, and immortal as only a *myth* can be.

Posted by: Loomis | March 4, 2006 7:38 PM | Report abuse

OK, you are okay!

Glad you liked Tom's book. That story about the Springsteen song is amazing, isn't it? (I won't go into the details of it here, lest Tom be bombarded with questions about it.) Also the story about "Dixie." Whoah.

And yes, the book by that other Achenbro, about aliens, is well worth the read, too. And probably a re-read. (In fact, it's one of the small number of books I had sent over here by air freight rather than sea; the others include Tom's book and, of course, my Bleep book. Oh, and a whole bunch of books about Hong Kong, of course. I'm not *totally* silly.)

Posted by: Tom fan | March 4, 2006 7:43 PM | Report abuse

ERROR:>And at least nobody out there assumes you are, like, a paid assassin.
-----RD, it's ok. I mean, at least it's not like it's just a hobby or something.

Smokin, Error, pure-T smokin baby
It is obvious that you missed the coma

Posted by: Anonymous | March 4, 2006 7:45 PM | Report abuse

Achenbach: My boyfriend won't take me to see Brokeback; he said he doesn't feel secure enough about his sexuality to sit through the love scenes. So I might have to go this one alone.

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 7:47 PM | Report abuse

[That's why we have no pots and pans or anything practical like that in our new apartment -- all we sent by air were books and clothes.]

Posted by: Achen- and Tom fan | March 4, 2006 7:47 PM | Report abuse

RD: A women at work once told me that the ideal man is one who can help a women transform herself into who she wants to be.

Hmmmmmm. I think this is wide open, RD. And I have to ask myself why the non-Mama side of me thought "oh how sweet" when I first read it. Actually, it is outrageous chauvinism. Or disgustingly non-feminist. Or both:
1. She's fine the way she is and he's a dorkhead for not appreciating this or why is he there to begin with???
2. If she's fine to begin w she sure doesn't know it if SHE said this, in which case
3. She (barf) thinks that HE has a real clue to who she would like to be since she does not or at least he presumes she does not or at least she presume that she does not and she presumes that he does since she does not but she probably also pretends she does not. There's a little introduction for you. Fem 101. You have to study the disease in order to find the cure, so to speak.
4. the more I think about it, if you are an assassin would you pease hunt up that woman and do Mama a beeeeg favor honey?

Thank you so much dahlin

Posted by: Nachomama | March 4, 2006 8:00 PM | Report abuse

Mama you in the dark haaaaaaaa! Obvious! the guy is a surgeon and he can......
make her the woman he knew she knew he always wanted her to be

Posted by: bbking | March 4, 2006 8:04 PM | Report abuse

Nacho, it COULD also mean that the ideal man is someone who loves about you the things you love about yourself. (Even if those things seem to the rest of the world, strange, disreputable, iconoclastic, not-very-ladylike, etc...) Meeting someone who encourages/allows you to be who you really are IS like undergoing a transformation, because most people hide a lot of who we are, even from those closest to us. (Or even from ourselves.)

But it's definitely open to interpretation.

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 8:14 PM | Report abuse

is that Sirin or Siren?

Posted by: bbking | March 4, 2006 8:17 PM | Report abuse

It's Sirin. (It was Nabokov's pseudonym in his early writing days. I'm a little pretentious.)

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 8:22 PM | Report abuse

Hey Sirin (what planet is that? Mama's
from Dixie) "strange, disreputable, iconoclastic, not-very-ladylike" ooooooh baby you musta known Mama in a past life!

"Meeting someone who encourages/allows you to be who you really are IS like undergoing a transformation"

Mama has the crazy idea that transformation, when it is successful, is always in inside job. But a fan club don't hurt.

"because most people hide a lot of who we are, even from those closest to us. (Or even from ourselves" Truer words were never spoken Sirin. Especially if you add --especially from our (your, his their, my, her) spouse.

Of course, it's a rare man that is this flexible in his concept of his "other" and him "self" and how their roles "intertwine" (all the peculiarly ornery and perverted mind-twistin gasligtin hanky panky that inevitably occurs god help us every one). Most men, heck, most humans are just not this omniscient and let's face it baby, this poor guy would have to be a chameleon to put up with our (I presume from your boldness that I may include you in the party?) strange, disreputable, iconoclastic, not-very-ladylike ways.....crazy as a road lizard in fact.
but like you said honey, miracles do happen.
Lay it on me if you got more honey.....

Posted by: Nachomama | March 4, 2006 8:27 PM | Report abuse

Sirin, I kinda like that thought. Love being what it is, my guess is that it works both ways. Don't ya think?

Posted by: Slyness | March 4, 2006 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Sirin:"Meeting someone who encourages/allows you to be who you really are IS like undergoing a transformation"

first off pseudonym of the great Nabokov, Cheese has the honor of saying:
For god's sake, meeting this guy would be like being in a SCI FI FLIK!
It could never happen in reality. Only in
"great literature"................

Posted by: Cheesehead | March 4, 2006 8:35 PM | Report abuse

Sirin, have you got any idea where these guys hang out? And is there a charter bus?

Posted by: Loretta | March 4, 2006 8:40 PM | Report abuse

well, just by way of example to show what a
fine time this sweet guy would have, Mama has been hard at work refining her adolescense (sp) for years. She's been busier than a buzzard circlin that tower and she still does not know if she is a corny folksong, an old crow, a Zen maven or a bellycrawlin worm in a sack o rotten apples.

And didn't Rilke say a thing has to ripen until it's real? I'm ripenin as fast as I can and I don't want to prejudice the outcome by jumpin to conclusions before the fruit falls. It's a lifetime work perfectin the ego and Mama didnt' even hit her stride until recently, although she's a sizzlin now!

So, I say, away my soul, the wild night is calling. Or crawling. Or something.

Mama is a very complicated person, you got that right. But this is because of her "rich inner life" which is why she is really a blog within a blog so to speak.

You'll get there Sly, you can do it, you can live up to the handle! Fun time Sirin. Y'all come back soon.

Posted by: Nachomama | March 4, 2006 9:01 PM | Report abuse

Achen/Tom Fan:
It's it's not not you you making the double words. It's our new "improved" blogging software: it has a bug. (not to mention several other shortcomings that have been mentioned repeatedly)

Hal, are you listening?? Hal? Hello?

...and, Achenfan, just because you mentioned my cellphone-less state, I'll tell you privately (nobody else read this): I don't have an answering machine either. Lord knows how I survive. I've said it before, the only way to be sure to get a message to me is to post it on the Achenblog...

Keep up those Hong Kong postings--it's way cool that you have started a caboodle outpost on the other side of the world.

Posted by: kbertocci | March 4, 2006 9:04 PM | Report abuse

Cheesehead, I'm not sure I understood that...;)

Nacho, first of all, you sound like fun. ;) Secondly, you're right that transformation is an inside job -- but sometimes other people help animate things in us, and sometimes those things are even a surprise. That's not to say it's always POSITIVE (as anyone who's ever said "He/She brings out the worst in me," knows). But humans evolved in clans, we're social animals, not solitary ones, so what we think of each other really counts, whether we want to admit it or not.

I think everyone struggles with striking a balance between being 100% true to oneself but at the same time not alienating those around us. Which means, sometimes you have to give up something you like for something you like more. But if a man doesn't ask you to give up either one... that's pretty ideal, sure. :)

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 9:05 PM | Report abuse

Ah! ok Sirin, let me put that another way: You could not have literature with this kind of a guy because there could be no PLOT! Unless it was a pulp romance paperback and even they haven't invented a sweetiepie this good.
A Hero always has to have imperfections too. This guy is just too good to be true.
Literature is like life. A baby without a head cannot live. huh? What would Nabokov say?

Posted by: Cheesehead | March 4, 2006 9:17 PM | Report abuse

"20 yrs from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do."

Posted by: Merlin | March 4, 2006 9:20 PM | Report abuse

So speaking of myth (ideal man)- someone needs to channel Sam Shepard to nail this cowboy(ha)western myth topic.

Posted by: samwannabe | March 4, 2006 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Sirin: but sometimes other people help animate things in us, and sometimes those things are even a surprise. That's not to say it's always POSITIVE (as anyone who's ever said "He/She brings out the worst in me," knows)

Mama: When did you meet my ex, Sirin??? He animated things allright. Surpise?? It was like a Disneyworld nightmare!

Posted by: Nachomama | March 4, 2006 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Nabokov might say that "ideal" isn't the same thing as "flawless," Cheesehead. I'm not talking about perfect human beings, but rather people who are a perfect fit for each other. For instance, my ideal man might repel certain other women. (In fact, I think that's likely.)

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 9:25 PM | Report abuse

Sirin, "ideal" isn't the same thing as "flawless,"
Thank you Mr. Nabokov. Yes, I have always
felt that flawednessness was ideal, at least in me....

..I'm not talking about perfect human beings, but rather people who are a perfect fit for each other

Dream on darlin. It's that little word perfect in there. How about just reasonably acceptable most of the time or if not most of the time at least when you want to impress the preacher or the boss comes to supper;-) in other words they are
certainly not perfect but their flaws don't rub up against each other causin excrutiatin agony and embarassment of nightmarish proportions? I'm thinking
I better get out my handy checklist for this....

"my ideal man might repel certain other women. (In fact, I think that's likely.)"
There you go Sirin, a few rough edges liven things up huh?

I get your drift here. If 2 boats pass in the night do they need a paint job less often and can they stave off the inevitable midnightcrash in the storm until, say, mid-80s?

Aint nuthin perfect this side of Nabokov,
unless it's a good mess of bbq, w coleslaw, collards and banana puddin after't is my guess. (and of course, a beer later)

Posted by: Nachomama | March 4, 2006 9:46 PM | Report abuse

I must praise the all great and powerful Hal for restoring the font to its original size. That being said, when are the permalinks and preview coming (whine)?

Ha! Achenfan, no pots and pans! I like your priorities. I got Shroder's book from the library but haven't gotten to it yet - maybe later tonight...

Posted by: mostlylurking | March 4, 2006 9:49 PM | Report abuse

Exactly, Samwannabe, if I read you correctly. So go for it why don't you?
And would that be in a red wheelbarrow?

Posted by: Merlin | March 4, 2006 9:57 PM | Report abuse

A friend of mine swears that "Young Guns II" was the first gay cowboy movie.

Not too sure about John Wayne, though he did play 'Rooster' (ahem) Cogburn, didn't he? A "one-eyed fat man"? Hmmm.

I'm wondering about Clint Eastwood movies now...

But there'll be plenty of time for that, I'm going out of town for a few days with the family for some fun.

See you soon, folks.


Posted by: bc | March 4, 2006 10:07 PM | Report abuse

indeed merlin - but my campfire's dwindling to embers . . . plus folks are gonna need to get off their high horses to ride on into my camp . . .

Posted by: samwannabe | March 4, 2006 10:14 PM | Report abuse

begin channelling:
So his sharp sense of being lost, of having his identity shattered, no doubt represented to him a kind of pure state of inner being. It is an empty place, a chaotic and frightening one, but it is a place free of illusion, a place where everything a public artist, a celebrity, has been told he is doesn't hold. The one predominant and enduring theme in Shepard's work is the agonizing struggle to fill that empty space with love.

Listen to him in his story, "You I Have No Distance From": "I can't remember what it was like before I met you. Was I always like this? I remember myself lost ... But you I have no distance from. Every move you make feels like I'm traveling in your skin."
end channelling

Posted by: wannabesamwannabe | March 4, 2006 10:18 PM | Report abuse

wait - feel like a I got poked with a branding iron (ha)! Clint Eastwood cannot be considered in the same context. He is Spaghetti Western - EXCEPT when playing ROWDY Yates in RAWHIDE (Raw-hide)!?

Posted by: samwannabe | March 4, 2006 10:20 PM | Report abuse

yes wannabe - it's all about the love, and ANY love is GOOD love.

Posted by: samwannabe | March 4, 2006 10:23 PM | Report abuse

Re: synergy between lovers.
Well, when sparks fly, it can certainly kindle a spirit.
Even after the sparks ease up, the merits of a good committed relationship cannot be overestimated, nor the destructive power of a bad one.
A good relationship allows people to grow, find what they value, try out repressed parts of themselves, and meet challenges of life together.

Now I need to make that rhyme and add a "I love you" and I have a Hallmark card.

Posted by: Wilbrod | March 4, 2006 10:23 PM | Report abuse

Well thank you. Now, I will have my s'mores.

Posted by: Merlin | March 4, 2006 10:24 PM | Report abuse

and a cold beer

Posted by: Nachomama | March 4, 2006 10:35 PM | Report abuse

from Merlin's link - "In the absence of love and connection, the booze flows . . . "(and/or s'mores)

Posted by: samwannabe | March 4, 2006 10:37 PM | Report abuse

Nicely said, Wilbrod but always get flowers to go with the card. The value of a little shameless bribery cannot be overestimated either.

Posted by: Merlin | March 4, 2006 10:38 PM | Report abuse

"In the absence of love and connection, the booze flows . . . "(and/or s'mores)

bump it up bump it up don't miss the coma,
what I always say..

Posted by: bbking | March 4, 2006 10:40 PM | Report abuse

Sam, mama will connect to you with a nice big flyswatter and this here Napoleon tatoo says she can do it. You'll think a
hot brandin iron was nuthin a'tall.
Good night, son. Douse the flames on your way out.

Posted by: Nachomama | March 4, 2006 10:43 PM | Report abuse

oooooh...Sam Shepard in a red wheelbarrow,
Be still my heart

Posted by: Loretta | March 4, 2006 10:45 PM | Report abuse

yes samwannabe, it's all about booze and/or s'mores. And ANY boooze and/or s'mores are GOOD. Besides, the campfire has goneout, snow is falling and the wolves are circling.

Posted by: wannabesamwannabe | March 4, 2006 10:52 PM | Report abuse

and there's only have one shot-gun shell left 'cause the horse ran-off when y'all started singing show-tunes

Posted by: samwannabe | March 4, 2006 11:02 PM | Report abuse

enter Sirin's mythical macho-hairy chested hero-studluvin-pistol packin-sweetalker

Posted by: wannabe | March 4, 2006 11:07 PM | Report abuse

did someone call for me?

Posted by: bbking | March 4, 2006 11:10 PM | Report abuse

well, at least it's not The Wild West. Where the men were men and the sheep were anxious. "Are you my da-a-a-a-dy?"

Posted by: Anonymous | March 4, 2006 11:12 PM | Report abuse

Here ya go Rowdy:

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Though the streams are swollen
Keep them doggies rollin'

Through rain and wind and weather
Hell-bent for leather
Wishin' my gal was by my side
All the things I'm missin'
Good vittles, love and kissin'
Are waiting at the end of my ride

Move 'em on, head 'em up
Head 'em up, move 'em on
Move 'em on, head 'em up
Count 'em out, ride 'em in
Ride 'em in, count 'em out
Count 'em out, ride 'em in

Keep movin', movin', movin'
Though they're disapprovin'
Keep them doggies movin'

Don't try to understand 'em
Just rope 'em, throw and brand 'em
Soon we'll be living high and wide
My hearts calculatin'
My true love will be waitin'
Be waitin' at the end of my ride


Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'

Posted by: Anonymous | March 4, 2006 11:17 PM | Report abuse

Repost:Achenbach: My boyfriend won't take me to see Brokeback; he said he doesn't feel secure enough about his sexuality to sit through the love scenes. So I might have to go this one alone.

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 07:47 PM


Posted by: Nachomam | March 4, 2006 11:21 PM | Report abuse

Rowdy, didjer already crawl in yer sleepin bag? Rowdy?

Oh well. booze and smores.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 4, 2006 11:25 PM | Report abuse

You don't mean Hussy in the perjorative sense, do you Nacho?

And what, now I can't have opinions just because my boyfriend is gay?

Posted by: Sirin | March 4, 2006 11:43 PM | Report abuse

Mama, now don't you go cussin' at poor Sirin. See what you done?

It's OK chile...

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 4, 2006 11:52 PM | Report abuse

And wannabe, I don't know about "macho hairy chested pistol packin' stud," but I wouldn't mind a well dressed, dismissive intellectual with a couple of nice wine glasses.

Posted by: Sirin | March 5, 2006 12:04 AM | Report abuse

Sirin, any chance he just may have been looking for a politically correct way to say he doesn't want to see a over-hyped gay cowboy love story?

Most "real" men would prefer to not sit through almost any modern love story, which is why they're called chick flicks...

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 5, 2006 12:07 AM | Report abuse

Yeah! Don't pick on Sirin!
Sirin is way cool. (But even if she were the ultimate twerp, we still wouldn't pick on her, right?)

Plus, Sirin needs our support right now. She's trying to come to terms with the fact that her boyfriend is gay.

"My *father*'s gay."

-- George Costanza, in the Seinfeld episode called "The Outing"

Posted by: Achenfan | March 5, 2006 12:09 AM | Report abuse

now Sirin don't get yer dander up. Honey,
Mama's life is a veritable picnic compared to yours. Yes it's a field of dandelions. Daffodils. Whatever but anyhoo, if you want Mama's advice I'm given out business cards looks like.
Life is a rich drama. and I do agree in the most basic sense any love is good love and Mama is in no position whatsoever to
call anyone a hussey. Case taken. Darlin,
kick up yer heels - what the h

Posted by: NachoMama | March 5, 2006 12:09 AM | Report abuse

Error, you're probably right that he doesn't want to see a cloying love story, period. I didn't even think of that. So maybe I don't have to come to terms with the fact that my boyfriend is gay, maybe I just have to come to terms with the fact that he's...a GUY!

Posted by: Sirin | March 5, 2006 12:13 AM | Report abuse

I think that guy I saw riding the escalator last night was a well-dressed dismissive intellectual. Except he was carrying only *one* nice wine glass. Perhaps he was a little too self-absorbed.

Posted by: Achenfan | March 5, 2006 12:15 AM | Report abuse

And wannabe, I don't know about "macho hairy chested pistol packin' stud," but I wouldn't mind a well dressed, dismissive intellectual with a couple of nice wine glasses

well now see, this may be exactly why your life got complicated, right here. Mama is havin a good time cuttin up. You have just gotten yer bonnet tied a bit too tight and are takin things way more serious than....hey wait aminute what's wrong w a hairy chested pistol packing macho stud (well at least now and then I mean) ;-) see: I'm flexible now and then. ....
Mama has nuthin against suits (if they are NICE suits and pay the tab and if they have nice wine glasses (well this is entirely hypothetical so skip it cause they never do, so far at least).
In other words: Mama loves to joke around and you have to READ BETWEEN THE WORDS.
That bein said there is more truth in jest than in a barrel of bbq beans.
Simmer down Sirin - you'll be fine. Easy does it and keep it simple. seems to me.
In the meantime ;-) if a nice suit w glasses does not make my cut I'll send him your way. how's that?

Posted by: Nachomama | March 5, 2006 12:21 AM | Report abuse

Oh god, those one-wine-glass guys -- I know all about them. They do it so they can watch you swig from the bottle.

Posted by: Sirin | March 5, 2006 12:23 AM | Report abuse

Atta way

Posted by: Nachomama | March 5, 2006 12:34 AM | Report abuse

>They do it so they can watch you swig from the bottle.

Heh, well if it doesn't work out you can always come see Error, I'll get out the pirate suit.

What you have to understand about guys and clothes, is we don't quite understand "textiles". Most of the stuff we buy is made of aluminum or steel and plastic, maybe some fine wood. Our stuff doesn't really wear out until it breaks and black lacquer is always in season, which is why I recently retired three pair of pants 'cuz I realized the seams were simply giving up.

Being forced to buy more I will, but otherwise without a proper babe to go out with, there's not much point until the existing ones cease to function.

Sort of a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 5, 2006 12:36 AM | Report abuse

Very swashbuckling the pirate suit. But actually you've just proved Sirin's
original point if I'm not an ill tempered idiot. Sirin, this guy should give lessons huh? There you go. Course, notice that he did not say a thing about his wine glasses!

Posted by: Nachomama | March 5, 2006 12:57 AM | Report abuse

Sirin, Brokeback Mountain is in no way a cloying love story. Nope, not at all. Tell your boyfriend to have no fear of that. Bring the Kleenex.

I hate hearing it described as a gay cowboy movie - they can't even talk about what their relationship is. A film about repression, denial, fear, loneliness - that's a better description, IMHO.

Posted by: mostlylurking | March 5, 2006 1:17 AM | Report abuse

>A film about repression, denial, fear, loneliness - that's a better description, IMHO

Thanks so much, now I know I don't have to see it! Give me "Bring up Baby", I'd prefer to be amused and uplifted.

For what it's worth, the wine glasses are plain but clean.

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 5, 2006 1:38 AM | Report abuse

SCC: "BringING up Baby"

(1938, Katharine Hepburn and Cary Grant)

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 5, 2006 1:40 AM | Report abuse

repression, denial, fear, loneliness can be close to cured with a good movie and
a pizza and beer. Or a good movie and fried chicken and pumpkin pie. Or heck,
Chinese takeout skip the movie. Gotta go feed my repression denial fear and loneliness. Maybe next week i'll be more amusing and uplifted. But just leave out the baby part entirely. At the moment, I don't even have smores and beer. But I do have a movie. 2nd hand lions. Begins in 15 mins. 4th showing this week. real crowd pleaser. my cat and i love it. have a good one.

Posted by: Nachomama | March 5, 2006 2:07 AM | Report abuse

It's hard to turn down a Pirate with clean wine glasses -- they don't grow on trees, after all...

Posted by: Sirin | March 5, 2006 2:14 AM | Report abuse

joel...the baseline you describe seems
about right...many a hollywood styled
storytell of the american west centered
on the settlers(colonizers?)point of
view...native americans seldom were shown
in anyway other than being hellbent on
attacking settlers(red river indeed has
such a segment)and sometimes were played or
portrayed by white men(chuck connors,rock
hudson)...this hollywood narative though
was not often bothered with deep ideas of
depicting the cause and effect the usa
placed in motion with manifest destiny
thinking...duplicity,wanton avarice,lack
of integrity or honor of word...the native
americans were given doses of these over
and the 1890's little remained
of of their world...

an excerpt from the book "FLYBOYS" follows

Teddy,like so many of his countrymen,found
nothing wrong in even the most barbaric
American actions.In December of 1864,an
audience in a Denver theater applauded
wildly as on stage an ordained Methodist
minister displayed the results of the
latest encounter between the civilized
races and the Others. The minister's name
was John Chivington--Preacher John.
Preacher John was a volunteer in the cavalry. Days earlier,he had led an
attacking party to Sand Creek,Colorado,
where they had surprised and massacred at
least 150 Indian children,women, and old
men.The braves had been away hunting.
What elicited the roars of approval from
the Denver theater audience was not just
Preacher John's tale of "victory" but the
grisly evidence. A pile of hacked Indian
penises brought laughter. Applause greeted
American soldiers who displayed hats over
which they had stretched the vaginal skin
of Indian women.
Teddy Roosevelt not only approved of this
attrocity,he thought it was one of the
single great moments in American history.
About the Sand Creek massacre he said,"In
spite of certain most objectionable details was on the whole as righteous and
beneficial a deed as ever took place on the
Almost the entire West was ethically
cleansed of Indians in the same manner,by
American soldiers acting on goverment orders to remove the Red Devils from their
land by imprisoning them on reservations
or killing them. As Teddy said,"I don't go
so far as to think that the only good
Indians are dead Indians,but I believe nine
out of every ten are,and i shouldn't like
to inquire too closely into the case of
the tenth."

...excerpt from author james bradley's
book entitled FLYBOYS,chapter two,pages
10 and 11...

as americans engaged the world more for
commerce or conquest often enough similar
thinking was in the lead...hawaii got a
dose of it,the philippines as well...

another excerpt from "FLYBOYS"

America would cause the deaths of more than
250,000 Filipinos--men,women,and children--
from the beginning of the hostilities on
February 4,1899 to July 4,1902,when President Roosevelt declared the Philippines "pacified." That is pretty
serious killing. America fought WWII over
a period of fifty-six months with approximately 400,000 casualties on all
fronts. So Hitler and Tojo combined,with
all their mechanized weaponry,killed about
the same per month--7,000--as the American
"civilizers" did in the Philippines.
One American army captain wrote of "one of
the prettiest little towns we have passed
through"--the people there "desire peace
and are friendly to Los Americanos. When
we came along this road,the natives that
had remained stood along the side of the
road,took off their hats,touched their
foreheads with their hands. 'Buenos Dias,
Senors'(means good morning)." The good
American boys then proceeded to slaughter
the residents and ransack the town.
Anthony Michea of the Third Artillery wrote
, "We bombarded a place called Malabon,and
then we went in and killed every native we
met,men,women and children."Another soldier
described the fun of killing innocent
civilians:"This shooting human beings is a
'hot game,'and beats rabbit hunting all to pieces. We charged them like rabbits;
hundreds,yes thousands of them. Everyone
was crazy."
"I want no prisoners," one American general
ordered."I wish you to kill and burn,the
more you kill and burn the better it will
please me." An officer asked for clarifi-
cation,"to know the limit of age to respect
." The general replied in writing to kill
all those above "ten years of age."
President Theodore Roosevelt excused his
army's attrocities in the Philippines and
hailed"the bravery of American soldiers"
who fought "for the triumph of civilization
over the black chaos of savagery and bar-
barism." To Roosevelt,the extermination of
hundreds of thousands of noncombatant
civilians and defenseless POWs in the
Philippines represented"the most glorious
war in the nation's history."

excerpt from james bradley's book "FLYBOYS"
chapter six,pages 68,69 and 71.

john wayne on the screen protrayed many times over the noble,stand alone big man
to reckon with...hollywood made him a
star...and he deserves respect for his
lifelong work in the movies...Red River is
a hollywood western...and as such is a
pretty good one...montgomery clift and john
ireland seem to be telgraphing a bit more
than just"gun talk"...american history is
seldom clearly or openly revealed thru the
hollywood lens...indeed joel,it is good to
know where the baseline is...or was...

Posted by: Anonymous | March 5, 2006 4:19 AM | Report abuse

posted march 5,2006 04:19 am...

Posted by: an american in siam... | March 5, 2006 4:26 AM | Report abuse

I agree that there is a lot of stuff inherent in the little comment I repeated. What my friend (who is in her late fifties, for what it's worth) told me is that she believes that every woman has an idealized version of herself towards which she is eternally striving. If a man can help her in this process, he is valued. If a man does not help her, he is toast. I thought this a little harsh, but I have never claimed to understand women.

Posted by: RD Padouk | March 5, 2006 9:10 AM | Report abuse

Of course, let me make my standard panicky disclaimer. Personally, I think all generalizations about what women want, or what men want, are inherently unfair. However, my friend's comment (posted yesterday at 6:59) certainly made me think.

Posted by: RD Padouk | March 5, 2006 9:17 AM | Report abuse

So much boodle, so little time. I’m going to hit and run a bunch of topics this morning, so stand back.

As to the issue of openly gay leading men in Hollywood, the key word is “openly”.
Throughout cinematic history, lots of romantic role leading men have gone to great lengths to disguise their orientation. My wife who loves old movies can no longer watch Rock Hudson films. I think they are twice as funny now.

In the blog post I made in response to Hank Stuever’s article about Johnny Weir, I looked at the larger sport of Closet Watching™ in general.

In it, I posed the question about what singers and actors would have their career severely damaged if they were gay and were to come out of the closet. I posed a hypothetical list and some of my commenters added their own ususal suspect.

As if reading my mind, a group is class-action suing Clay Aiken for misrepresentation. Could Ricky Martin be far behind, and how can I get my money back for “Listen Without Prejudice, Vol. 1”? has a weekly feature where they take reader guesses at the blind item rumors in E!’s Ted Casablanca column. These rumors inevitably involve either closeted gay/bi leading men or coke-snorting starlets. Brokeback Mountain sheep-herder Jake Gyllenhaal has become a running gag in these items.

On the other hand, the Hollywood press treads lightly around some very thinly closeted actors such as Oscar® winners Jodi Foster and Kevin Spacey. Jodi is one of the most powerful, talented, and well-compensated women in Hollywood.
Both of these actors eschew roles where a romance is the primary focus of the role, perhaps trying to avoid being accused of orientation hypocrisy. But if straights can play gay, why can’t the reverse be allowed?

Which of course brings up double standards. We are much more tolerant of lesbians in romantic roles than gay men. Ellen DeGeneres’s current wife Portia de Rossi is critically acclaimed for her role as the heterosexually frustrated wife of David Cross’s ambiguously gay character. Of course, so much of the humor in “Arrested Development” works on the meta-level, that might be all part of the joke.

I would say I don’t care, but as the above shows, that is patently false. I do care because I find the whole cat and mouse game endlessly amusing, unfortunately at the expense of talented (and not-so talented) people who still find it necessary to lie to or mislead their fanbase.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Adventures in typeface: When I click on the links in today's kit, for the Magazine edition of the Wild Wild West column and for the tribute to Art Buchwald, the fonts on those pages are about 24 pt. Like a large print book at the library. What is up with that?

And I don't think this was mentioned with all the font discussions, but if your mouse has a wheel on top, you can hold down the control key and zoom in and out by turning the wheel. My dad gave me that tip yesterday.

[I might as well take the opportunity to say, that without all the great things I have learned from my dad during my life, well, life wouldn't be nearly so good.]

Posted by: kbertocci | March 5, 2006 9:53 AM | Report abuse

In addition to kbertucci's comment way back, "The Celluloid Closet"is a book as well as a movie. Lots of good info in there.

And kb, that control-scoll wheel trick gave my caffeined-adled mind vertigo.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 10:00 AM | Report abuse

yellojkt sums up his 9:38 a.m. post:
I would say I don’t care, but as the above shows, that is patently false. I do care because I find the whole cat and mouse game endlessly amusing, unfortunately at the expense of talented (and not-so talented) people who still find it necessary to lie to or mislead their fanbase.

So, yellojkt cares whether or not actors are gay or not gay. He finds humor in the situation of "Is she or isn't he?" And then there's the sad truth of the necessity (?) of having to lie in Hollywood as well as many other workplaces in America (perhaps less so today?) in order to have a career.

Less see, hear (Let's see here)--I had a forbear who was either gay or bisexual (forced into a marriage?)--Edward II. One of my childhood friends is gay and went to Hollywood to work in costume design. One of my students in the late 1970s was trying to come to grips with being gay--not easy. One of my friends left the teaching profession and came to terms--painfully--with being gay. Very tough situation. As a PR writer for a hospital, I encountered, very early in the history of the disease, an East Coast tough, swearing longshoreman who had moved west and contracted HIV-AIDS because he was gay--and was being wracked by the disease. That was a shock to see HIV-AIDS so up-close back then when it was an emerging phenomenon/pandemic. On my my side of the family and my husband's, we have family who are gay.

So, we can be voyaristic peepers as regards others' homosexuality, particularly in Hollywood, but we don't discuss the pain associated with being a homosexual, the difficulty in admitting one is a homosexual, and the acceptance or rejection of those who have the bravery to be honest with others about their sexual orientation.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 10:26 AM | Report abuse

I was spending the summer with my grandfather when John Wayne died. My grandfather was a retired Army officer who had served under Patton in France. He kept muttering something along the lines, “John Wayne was no hero. He spent the war making movies. Now Bob Hope was a true friend of the serviceman. When he dies, he deserves a hero’s tribute.”

Loomis very completely gave the Duke’s history with cancer. Ironically, the United States military-industrial complex killed John Wayne. See this Straight Dope article:

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 10:28 AM | Report abuse

Once again I have made my point inarticulately enough to be misinterpeted. I find the Clost Watch game intriguing mostly because it gets played at all. I do not care about a celebrity's personal life except that it is fascinating to so many other people do. It is all part of the Faustian price of fame. Perhaps that still makes me a bad person.

I agree with everything Loomis says. Coming out of the closet is a painful rite of passage that has no analogue in straight culture. It is a very troubling experience no matter how supportive friends and family are.

Not to play the "some of my best friends are" card, but as my college roommate came out to his girlfriend, the roommate he had a crush on, me, and his parents (in that order), he had to deal with a lot of reactions as well as adjusting his life to what he really was.

I will eventually blog about this more coherently, but the process was as illuminating to me as it was to him.

Fortunately, society has started to shift. Many of my teenager's gay and lesbian acquaintances come out while still in high school to a more positive experience. Not that life in high school is ever easy, straight or gay, but I do feel the earlier you are in touch with your sexual identity, the better.

Since this is still ostensibly a movie related boodle, "Parting Glances" with the incomprable Steve Buscemi is a great celluloid look at gay culture in the mid-80s that holds up well.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 10:50 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, yellojkt, for the link. Know of the story to which you just linked. Perhaps a combination of both killed John Wayne--carcinogens from cigarettes and radioactivity from the movie set?

Must also note the great post at 4:19 a.m.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Think the 10:50 post is yellojkt, channeling me. I didn't write the 10:50 a.m. post, but did write the 10:51 a.m. post.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 10:53 AM | Report abuse


I apologize greatly for inadvertantly mis-appropriating you identity. I often use a salutation when responding to a specific comment and it inadvertantly ended up in the name box. If the comment software were smart enough to remember identities like Halo-soft and others, perhaps this wouldn't have happened.

I like being able to blame my incompetence on Hal the Schemer whenever possible.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 10:58 AM | Report abuse

SCC: HaloScan is the well-known comment software I was referring to. Blogger also remembers identities within a single session.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 11:02 AM | Report abuse

American in Siam,
I see that it was your post at 4:19 a.m., but I thought it was because of the narrow column of text. My point is to thank you for the citation--author, book, page number. I don't know this book, Flyboys, but thanks to you, I believe I will very shortly. I am deeply appreciative.

Speaking of being deeply grateful, hats off to Mudge! I took Mucinex for the very first time in my life last night, and it's the first night in weeks during which I slept straight through without waking myself or my hubby with a hacking cough. My eyes even were moist this morning--a small miracle in itself. I knew of Guaifenesin previously only in terms of infertility--enough said. It's hell sometimes to have a rare genetic disorder.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Too interesting not to share;

Flyboys: A True Story of Courage
by James Bradley

From Publishers Weekly
The author of Flags of Our Fathers achieves considerable but not equal success in this new Pacific War-themed history. Again he approaches the conflict focused on a small group of men: nine American Navy and Marine aviators who were shot down off the Japanese-held island of Chichi Jima in February 1945. All of them were eventually executed by the Japanese; several of the guilty parties were tried and condemned as war criminals.

When the book keeps its eye on the aviators-growing up under a variety of conditions before the war, entering service, serving as the U. S. Navy's spearhead aboard the fast carriers, or facing captivity and death-it is as compelling as its predecessor. However, a chapter on prewar aviation is an uncritical panegyric to WWI aerial bombing advocate Billy Mitchell, who was eventually court-martialed for criticizing armed forces brass.

More problematic [this is problematic?] is that Bradley tries to encompass not only the whole history of the Pacific War, but the whole history of the cultures of the two opposing countries that led to the racial attitudes which both sides brought to the war. Those attitudes, Bradley argues, played a large role in the brutal training of the Japanese army, which led to atrocities that in turn sharpened already keen American hostility. Some readers' hackles will rise at the discussion of the guilt of both sides, but, despite some missteps, Bradley attempts to strike an informed balance with the perspective of more than half a century.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Just showing off... I'm a published photographer now:

Posted by: TBG | March 5, 2006 11:34 AM | Report abuse

Congrats, tbg. Killjoys. First they take away diving boards, now Marco Polo.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 11:39 AM | Report abuse

My favorite part of that picture is that there is an ashtray on the pool ledge. So smoking is OK.

Posted by: TBG | March 5, 2006 12:38 PM | Report abuse

TBG, that's great - congratulations! Ha - so smoking is still ok in NJ. In Seattle, you're not allowed to smoke at the bus stops.

Posted by: mostlylurking | March 5, 2006 12:55 PM | Report abuse

I tend to stay overnight in hotels with sand in their pools. Cuts the feel and smell of chlorine, and reminds me of the beach. Of course, after I shower, there's always sand in the bottom of the bathtub in the hotel room where I'm staying, not to mention all the critical folds of my swimsuit and personal crevices.

Often, I take my mask and flippers along when we hit the hotel circuit with sandy pools. Of course, hubby would never be caught dead traveling and overnighting in hotels with sand without his Speedo-like 'bund...cummberbund, that is. We avoid staying in sans-sands hotels, you betcha!

Congrats, TBG! Knee-slapin' funnnnknee!!!

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 1:03 PM | Report abuse

SCC: Knee-slapin'
*asks self, "What's a slape?"*

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Of course, the sad part of the equation is that if cigarettes didn't kill John Wayne, then did radiation?

That would implicate both Alfred Lee Loomis and Ernest Lawrence in John Wayne's death. And if Wayne had known that Alfred Lee Loomis was in the process of killing him, would he--and far more likely his minions--have ever hired my sister to work at his tennis club following her graduation from UC Irvine?

Oh, the wily and wicked webs we weave...

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 1:16 PM | Report abuse

From the article about Art Buchwald (to which Joel provided the link):

Buchwald's genius is that he makes us laugh and he makes us think. He first gained world attention writing from Paris in the 1950s when President Eisenhower's press secretary, James Hagerty, called a special NATO press briefing to take seriously a Buchwald spoof column, denouncing it as "unadulterated rot." Buchwald retorted: "Hagerty is wrong -- I write adulterated rot."

From the back of the book jacket, "Texas Iconoclast" about local writer/politician/activist Maury Maverick Jr.:

Maury Maverick, Jr. is opinionated, disgusting, a racist, a crackpot, bigoted, biased, unpatriotic, decadent, psychotic, unrealistic, not operating with a full deck of cards, and full of sentimental baloney.

Maury Maverick, Jr. is a true-blue American, a free agent, a gadfly, devoid of racism, provocative, entertaining, an effective historian and educator, and a first-rate philosopher. Above all he is a champion deender of civil liberties.

-- A compilation of opinion from letters about Maury Maverick, Jr., that have been sent to the editor of the San Antonio Express-News.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Excellent, TBG. Congratulations!

Posted by: pj | March 5, 2006 2:16 PM | Report abuse

Loomis, are you related to everyone in America or just the folks in Texas?

John Wayne, not my favorite cowboy.

As to gays in the movies or elsewhere, we certainly can't judge anyone because we all stand on the same slippery slope. Like everyone else in this world, we're suppose to love gays, lesbians, everyone, and leave judgment to God. Not easy for us to do, especially those of the church. And from this crowd one would expect much more.I can't look at Rock Hudson movies anymore either, and I used to look at them all the time. I don't know, it just takes something away from the movies knowing that he was gay. And he was so sick before he died, and people didn't want to be around him when he was so sick. He really was treated bad. I guess people felt they could get what he had if they were nice to him. Is it any better today?

Posted by: Cassandra S | March 5, 2006 3:16 PM | Report abuse

Did anyone read George Wills op-ed piece today? It seems not only do those of us that live in poverty lacked the necessities of life, but we also lack hygiene. In other words, we stank. Why would George write such an awful thing in a widely read newspaper knowing that someone is going to read that and get offended to the max. I personally took umbrage at being declared a "stinky". And I most certainly let him know it. He's poverty stricken when it comes to feelings.

Posted by: Cassandra S | March 5, 2006 3:31 PM | Report abuse


I was thinking about Curmudgeon's excellent description of conservative vs liberal the other day and I remembered a recent editorial by Republican voice Peggy Noonan. She was complaining about airport security and how, because she is often singled out at security checkpoints, she NOW agrees that it is a broken system. The bottom line? She didn't mind until she had experienced the pain of the process herself.

Conservatives have no empathy. They cannot feel something they themselves have not experienced. Poor people? Who cares? George Will has never been poor (moneywise, that is). Uninsured? George Bush has always had insurance--he doesn't care that others don't.

Liberals have the ability to feel empathy. We see others bothered by something and it bothers us. We don't have to have experienced it ourselves.

Does that make us better people? In a word, YES.

Posted by: TBG | March 5, 2006 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Cassandra writes:
Loomis, are you related to everyone in America or just the folks in Texas?

Cassandra, I hate to disppoint you, but I a related to just about everyone in America AND Texas, too!

In fact, I was at a luncheon on Saturday afternoon (at the San Antonio Country Club, never set foot on the property before, I swear this!!!) with probably about 30 distant cousins whom I had never met before. Oh, what a story!

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 3:46 PM | Report abuse


Thanks for saying what I feel.

Posted by: Cassandra S | March 5, 2006 3:47 PM | Report abuse

I was listening to the Rent CD just moments ago--Disc 1--and there is a funny line in one of the songs...something to the effect: "How can you close down a tent city and then go home and watch "It's a Wonderful Life?"

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Loomis, not disappointed, just wondered because you seem to be able to run a line to a lot of the people talked about here. I was just curious.

Posted by: Cassandra S | March 5, 2006 3:51 PM | Report abuse

When my sister worked for John Wayne's tennis club, she produced the newsletter and designed the graphics for T-shirts for the club (a bouncing tennis ball that took the form of a rounded 'w'). I don't remember if her design ever became the club's logo, though.

My sis and two Loomis-descended cousins...well, all four of have many visual and verbal skills that have opened doors for us, and I speak for myself, that at times I had many struggles along the way (if I had not been at the dentist on Friday I would have written something on the *perils* of being blonde).

That said, I remember vividly the excitement when my father's sister would send our family my cousin Sherri's hand-me-downs. New, expensive, pretty clothes, hardly worn. Then my sister would get the hand-me-downs out of my closet. Dad never did much about our threadbare carpets, though.

Posted by: Loomis | March 5, 2006 4:06 PM | Report abuse

You a blonde, Linda? I always have pictured you as a brunette. Funny, isn't it?

I glanced at the Will column because it's about the only senator from NC I have voted for in recent years, but didn't read it thoroughly. I can't read Will; he makes no sense to me.

Since I'm the oldest cousin in my particular group, my clothes got handed down to the cousin closest to me in age. Bless her heart, I don't know how she stood it. My mother was an excellent seamstress and made just about everything I wore. I think that's why I've never been into clothes much; never got to shop as a kid. I have to depend on my oldest daughter for advice.

Posted by: Slyness | March 5, 2006 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Congratulations on the pic! No Marco Polo -- Ha!

Years ago when I visited Singapore, I saw a sign on the subway that said, "No Durians Allowed." At the time, I didn't realize that durians are a smelly type of fruit. I thought maybe the term referred to an ethnic group, and I was horrified.

[I've never actually been brave enough to sniff a durian, much less eat one. I did see some durian ice-cream in the grocery store yesterday. Maybe some day . . . How bad could it smell in frozen form?]

"Once again I have made my point inarticulately enough to be misinterpreted."! Ha! We've all been *there*, dude. Thank you for expressing the phenomenon so articulately.

Posted by: Achenfan | March 5, 2006 5:10 PM | Report abuse

I was always a Gary Cooper fan as a kid, but I do like several John Wayne vehicles. His first really good film was Stagecoach, which, not coincidentally was his first John Ford film, in 1939. Gone With the Wind, Goodbye Mr. Chips, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Wuthering Heights, Dark Victory, The Wizard of Oz, Of Mice and Men and Ninotchka were all nominated for best picture alongside Stagecoach that year. Not bad company. His best films IMHO are: The Searchers (his own favorite), The Quiet Man, Red River, Shepard of the Hills, The High and the Mighty, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, and Stagecoach. In many of these and particularly the first, and best, three, JW plays a character in conflict with himself. He's the man of action and sure of himself, but then something happens to make him question the rigidity of his values. In The Searchers he's a bitter Indian hater who is made to see himself as a bigot and change. In The Quiet Man he's a fighter who kills an opponent in the ring and vows to never fight again. In Red River he's an obsessive martinet who goes too far and learns that domination and leadership are not the same. Sure, John Wayne made a lot of crap films, none worse than The Conqueror (made the same year as The Searchers), but there is quality work also. He was generally more of a movie star than an actor.

Why in the world they cast Monty Clift in Red River has always been a mystery to me. Although a good enough actor, he was way too small physically to play against JW. But, as we all know, the start of the cattle drive aka "the yee-haw scene" is a classic.

Posted by: kurosawaguy | March 5, 2006 5:23 PM | Report abuse

"the yee-haw scene" -- ha!

Posted by: Achenfan | March 5, 2006 5:43 PM | Report abuse

Here is a picture of a durian I took in Vietna. Let's hope the comment monster doesn't eat it again.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 6:02 PM | Report abuse

Here is another picture of me holding a durian:

The Vietnamese say it has "the taste of heaven and the smell of h-e-double hockeysticks."

Posted by: Anonymous | March 5, 2006 6:04 PM | Report abuse

Forgive my elementary school usage, but the much more erudite and comprehensive message I originally wrote got eaten by the comment monster. I guess when Joel says he won't cotton to any language stronger than "heck" or "darn", the comment monster takes him literally.

So avoid any discussions of the works of Dante until you can avoid offending the powers that program the filter.

Posted by: yellojkt | March 5, 2006 6:08 PM | Report abuse

Achenfan, Smithsonian mag had a story about durians several years ago. The smell is noxious, but the taste is supposed to be wonderful...

Posted by: Slyness | March 5, 2006 6:28 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, yello and Slyness.
I'm going to have to hold my nose and try one of them durians -- they sure must be good if people are prepared to eat them despite their smell of H-E-double-honey-sticks.

But I must admit to being a little dubious, given the close association between taste and smell. I see another palate-cleansing trip to McDonald's in my future . . .

Posted by: Achenfan | March 5, 2006 7:03 PM | Report abuse

Hub McCann (Robert Duvall) in Second Hand Lions (Hub's what every boy needs to know about becoming a man speech):
If you want to believe in something, then believe in it. Just because something isn’t true, that’s no reason you can’t believe in it. There’s a long speech I give to young men. Sounds like you need to hear a part of it. Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good. That courage and virtue mean everything. That power and money, money and power mean nothing. That good always triumphs over evil. And I want you to remember this: That love, true love, never dies. You remember that boy. You remember that. It doesn’t matter if they’re true or not, you see. A man should believe in those things because those are the things worth believing in. Got dat?”

People who like to fuss with punctuation and such can go to town.
Corny sentimentalists, and bitter/jaded scoffing metro-sophisticates may also go to town.

Mama likes Hub. So there.

Posted by: Nachomama | March 5, 2006 7:39 PM | Report abuse

"That love, true love, never dies." But it does sometimes bring out the silly in all of us.

The Impressive Clergyman: Mawage. Mawage is wot bwings us togeder tooday. Mawage, that bwessed awangment, that dweam wifin a dweam...

And wuv, tru wuv, will fowow you foweva...

So tweasure your wuv.

Prince Humperdinck: Skip to the end.
The Impressive Clergyman: Have you the wing?

Prince Humperdinck: Man and wife. Say man and wife.

The Impressive Clergyman: Man an' wife.

-of course, The Princess Bride

Posted by: kurosawaguy | March 5, 2006 10:01 PM | Report abuse

right u r, kguy. Wuv is a wonderful and
Cheesehead is in wuv with Dowwy Parton:

Our thwee honey drop orbs therefore which are two / though I must gawk, endure unto recycling / not a breach, but an expansion / like a golden oscar to hairy thinness beat.
If we are two "orbs" we are four so / as stiff twin basketballs are, whew / the one, the fixed b ooh b, doth glow / but the other knocker steals the show
And though one bdoubleohb in the center sit / Yet when the other far doth roam / It leans, and harkens after it / and grows right out of the tvset / "oh take me home"
After John Donne, A Valediction Forbidding Mourning

Posted by: Cheesehead | March 5, 2006 10:36 PM | Report abuse

not only the silly but, the exceedingly silly and the unbelievably unfortunate embarrassment sp?

Posted by: Nachomama | March 5, 2006 10:38 PM | Report abuse


Funny, I was about to write the EXACT SAME THING about Jessica Simpson.

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 5, 2006 10:51 PM | Report abuse

falls of horse. prostrates self in cactus patch. limps off to outhouse to pick briars out of behind. to be continued.

Posted by: merlin | March 5, 2006 10:59 PM | Report abuse

bump it up Flynn. hey - did you check out 2nd hand lions? Your namesake is the hero.
am i right?

Posted by: Ch | March 5, 2006 11:03 PM | Report abuse

Looks interesting, haven't seen it yet. Next stop at Amazon.


Bump it up indeed, "It's Hard to Be A Pimp!"

Posted by: Error Flynn | March 5, 2006 11:16 PM | Report abuse

Out here in the west cowboys still rock, be they on the side of a mountain or top of a horse. Let's hear it for the manly man...makes me swoon. Ride em cowboy!

Posted by: FF | March 6, 2006 12:07 AM | Report abuse

ERROR:Bump it up indeed, "It's Hard to Be A Pimp!"

MAMA: That's it son. Aim high!

Posted by: Nachomama | March 6, 2006 1:25 PM | Report abuse

Yeah verily, let's hear it for cowboys on both sides of the mountain. My copy of As You Like it is at this point quite dog eared as I have been using it as a template for some days now as if I were trying out for all the parts....Oh what a tangled web we weave.....

picks self up, dusts self off trying to seem nonchalant, intense moonlight is playing tricks with her eyes. Scans signposts in considerable confusion which way to turn next. in the absence of love and connection, the poetry flows.

Posted by: Merlin | March 6, 2006 6:22 PM | Report abuse

Brokeback would have won had there been a category for "Best Action Drama."

Posted by: frank frisby | March 7, 2006 9:33 PM | Report abuse

Why is everyone so fired up about this movie? It really hasn't done all that well in the theaters anyways. The numbers I've seen say its only made about 76 million pre oscar And most people I've talked to say they have not and will not see it. According to the powers that be, a movie needs to make at least 100 million to be considered a blockbuster. So my question is why was BBM even nominated? And for that matter, why was any of the movies? CRASH, CAPOTE, etc. None of these movies made over 100 million but the Chronicles of Narnia made 300 million and was not nominated for best picture. The Passion of the Christ made 400 million and wasn't nominated at all last year. HMMMMMMM, makes you think don't it? Man I'm sick of Hollywood.
This is a clear cut case of the liberal agenda trying to force their homosexual opinions on us. And I for one am sick of it. I'm sick of seeing it on TV, in politics (gay marriage) and now in the movies. Homosexuality goes against God and nature. You ever see two bucks doin it in the woods? Leviticus 18:22 says: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. I mean really, how much more proof do you need?
Go ahead and call me anything you want, personally I don't care. I don't have to answer to you. I have to answer to God and you will to. I don't claim to be perfect by any means. I'm a sinner just like the rest of you but I know what sin is and homosexuality is a sin plain and simple. Get over it, accept it for what it is and move on. One more thing. People are not born gay. God created man and He would not deliberately give you something that would make you sin against Him. There is no gay gene no matter what they tell you. Homosexuality it is a choice. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!

Posted by: Don | March 9, 2006 11:37 AM | Report abuse

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