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Crimes Against Nature

Last night, I went to National Geographic for a screening of "Crimes Against Nature," the documentary by my neighbor Angus, who you know from his cameos on the blog. (Check out the nice write-up by Liz Smith about the gig.) Lots of boldface names on hand, including Sally Quinn, Chris Wallace and Mr. and Mrs. George "Ali" (Dabber) Stephapopulopolis. Also, Angus's mom. I asked him afterward if his mom liked the movie and he said, "Yes, she liked it -- but she's my mother." And I think we agreed that the marketing strategy couldn't be based on that alone. You can't have a sales pitch that says something like:

Angus's Movie a Smash, Declares Angus's Mom

Afterward, we repaired to the Mayflower bar. It was a great evening and a lot of fun, except for the destruction-of-the-environment part.

Much of the movie is about coal mining and coal-burning power plants (with Bobby Kennedy Jr. as the crusading environmentalist). In recent weeks, I've heard a lot of radio commercials about "clean coal," and both presidential candidates have endorsed the concept of "clean coal technology." But just now I dug through my computer files to find the interview I did with Rodney Waller, an executive with Range Resources, a major natural gas drilling company. When I asked him about "clean coal," he scoffed.

"It ain't no such thing," he said. "Coal is coal."

--

More about my fabulous pals: Carl Hoffman, who surely is one of America's most intrepid journalists, is off again on a crazy adventure to travel the world in the worst possible conveyances. He will blog the trip at The Lunatic Express -- please post comments as he travels around the planet.

Tomorrow I'm off to Jakarta, there to hop the bad ferries of Indonesia, and then on to Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and beyond. I'm anxious, nervous, but not nearly so much as when I left in March. I was crazed then - I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I didn't really know what I was doing or how I was going to do it. Or if I was going to survive at all.

By Joel Achenbach  |  October 15, 2008; 8:24 AM ET
 
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Next: Joel the Plumber

Comments

Morning all.

I hear coal trains everyday heading east.

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 15, 2008 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Morning, Boodle. This is a very good kit. I like the endorsement!

Are we going to inanely live-blog the debate tonight?

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Interesting. My brother the business process consultant has talked about the company he's worked with in Kentucky, which is putting coal through microwave ovens to clear out impurities so it will burn cleaner. I wonder if that process will work.

Posted by: slyness | October 15, 2008 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Just googled Angus Yates. I'm actually embarrassed by my ignorance. I thought he was a fictional character.:<O

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 10:24 AM | Report abuse

We have a lot of coal fired electricity here in Alberta. I would have to agree that it is not particularly clean.

Posted by: dr | October 15, 2008 10:25 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, new Kit! Crimes aainst nature indeed. At least the movie got a gala opening. I myself am skeptical of "clean coal", particularly since it appears we must expend a great deal of energy to get coal "clean" as an energy source. However, I'm not surprised to hear that a natural gas guy scoffed at the concept. Competition, y'know. Oklahoma has a lot of natural gas drillers and suppliers and they will also tell you there's no such thing as clean coal. I think they're right but it is also a smart business move.

Please please live-blog tonight's debate, inanity, fashion and visual reports and all. I have a rehearsal and will miss at least some of it, and I find the Boodle comments helpful. Often there are nuggets of insight even among the most pedestrian observations - not that I object to the pedestrian observations, either. I'm only human, y'know, and that's what I'd be saying too.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

I am more than willing to input inane comments

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:30 AM | Report abuse

I was wondering what happened to Carl Hoffman. I had been following that blog until he abruptly vanished. I feared foul play.

I guess the term “clean coal” comes down to what's meant by "clean." True, it is possible to burn coal without emitting nearly as much of the sulfurous stench and black ugly smoke normally associated with the process, so I guess you could call this "clean." But the advertisements are still being disingenuous when it comes to carbon dioxide. CO2 production is intrinsic in the chemistry of combustion, and you can't fool chemistry. (Not that I haven't tried.) And while I have seen plans to bury CO2 in the ground, these schemes are too far in the future to really justify the current enthusiasm. Coal still equals climate change.

And Joel, you clearly know some amazing people. (Belated kudos for that endearingly bizarre pseudo-rap video.) That documentary sounds fascinating, and relates to a period of history that I know shockingly little about. Loved that Liz Smith column too. I mean, I totally dig “Fantastic Mr. Fox."

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 15, 2008 10:31 AM | Report abuse

I'm currently reading a great book, titled *State by State* - a collection of essays on the fifty states by a group of gifted writers. The chapter on West Virginia has this heartbreaking passage about the coal industry:

= = = = = = =
First came the timber barons, who finished cutting the giant trees and floated the wood to market on the rivers. Then came the coal companies, with their throbbing deep mines and company stores that turned men into indentured labor. Later, strip mines blasted the faces of the mountains to get at the seams of coal...

"Mountaintop mining, a contemporary disaster, began in the 1980s and '90s. Coal companies simply blast off the tops of the mountains and dump tons of soil and rock into the hollows and streams below, destroying watersheds and the checks and balances of weather itself in the Appalachians. They've buried or damaged, to date, over two thousand miles of streams...Coal slurry impoundments, towering waste full of toxins and heavy metals, hang over the towns and settlements, waiting to weaken in hundred-year floods that happen more frequently, much more frequently, every other year, it seems: no clear running streams to absorb the storms, the snow melt. The dumped ground that buried the interlacing waters of the mined land (1.4 million acres projected destroyed by 2012) is loose, unstable. The drenched earth turns to rivers of poison mud. The coal companies exhaust the coal, bury the valleys, "restore" the tops of the mountains to level, moon-like landscapes, seeded with grass and little trees, and move on..."

= = = = = = = =

*State by State* is a fascinating book - I skipped around at first but now I am settling down to read it from front to back (Alaska, Alabama, and so on to Wyoming). Here are some of the authors represented:

Illinois - Dave Eggers
Mississippi - Barry Hannah
Virginia - Tony Horwitz
Oklahoma - S.E. Hinton
New York - Jonathan Franzen
Montana - Sarah Vowell

The quoted West Virginia passage is by Jayne Anne Phillips.

Posted by: kbertocci | October 15, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Sopchoppy Worm Gruntin' Festival
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/37627/title/Grunting_humans%2C_moles_scare_earthworms

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Sounds like a good time was had by all, Joel. Looking forward to seeing Angus' movie myself. Coal is indeed coal, but it can become diamonds under the right conditions, no?

Speaking of folks you know, any comment re. what's going on with Chris Buckley?

Also, there was that OpEd piece from last weekend by Ben Bova advocating the old idea of extra-atmospheric solar energy collection and transmission to Earth's surface via low-intensity microwave beams.

It's still interesting, but difficult to see how such an idea could get a lot of support in these days of global warming. Most folks think that if you want something to cool off, you probably *don't* want to microwave it.

Reposted from previous Boodling:

"Good morning, all.

Woke up bruised, battered, scraped, without a shred of clothing on, and sore all over.

Naturally, I was by myself.

Anyway, I've brushed the raw venison and deer hair out of my teeth (think Wolfie may have had an oppossum appetizer, too) and the leaves from my hair, and am facing the new day tired but hopeful.

Looking forward to the debate tonight. i think McCain's going to have to come out throwing in order to get back in the game, and Obama knows it. Going to have to run some trick plays, too. The question is, will he sit back in a zone/nickel/prevent defense (which typically doesn't prevent much), or take some chances to force turnovers for quick scores and extending his lead.

I'd add that as JA and others point out, Obama can play conservative on offense, trying to run out the clock, and it sounds like he's come up with a good game plan (that idea of allowing folks to pull up to $10k from 401k accounts tax- and penalty-free as a means of tiding Main Street over is a very nice move, IMO) to keep scoring at a consistent pace.

A friend of mine said some months back that we'd see falling gas prices in advance of the elections as they seem to every four years, and so it is. Will Obama take note of that tonight, and turn it into a talking point about energy policy and the relationship between oil producers, oil companies, and the GOP?

bc


Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 10:33 AM"

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Also disturbing the environmental costs of the oilsands.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20081012/sc_mcclatchy/3066882;_ylt=AlGTOzNm0NZ_CfmyHdvM7EWs0NUE

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:45 AM | Report abuse

Morning all... great Kit and Angus wins for the best obvious answer ("she's my mother").

Boko... I'm still chuckling over the banner on your local Greens' website. I think they're trying to sell that house--at least it looks like a picture of a real estate salesperson next to it. :-)

Alec Baldwin contributes occasionally to the Huffington Post. This is his essay called "What an Obama Presidency Would Mean," but it seems more like it should be called "Why John McCain Won't be President in 2008."

Of course, reading it I'm hearing 30 Rock's Jack Donaghy's voice...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/what-an-obama-presidency_b_134800.html

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:55 AM | Report abuse

Somewhere back in the 1970s, I flew over what must have been eastern Kentucky. Back then, entire mountaintops weren't being removed, but the mountains were being nibbled around the edges. The extent of damage was amazing.

I suspect that looking around for coal mining scars on Google Earth could be interesting.

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 15, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

Not safe for work (without headphones; just the language) but pretty funny. Hayden Panettiere does an ad for Funny or Die (also check out the Moveon.org video right below it)

http://wonkette.com/403513/403513

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:00 AM | Report abuse

This just in on the WaPo front page:

"Breaking News:
Vice President Dick Cheney Experiences Abnormal Heart Rhythm"

I'm going to hold off on jokes until I understand the situation better and am confident that the man's life is not in jeopardy.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Cheney "cancelled a campaign event." Who the heck would want Cheney to campaign for him?

I'm thinking this is another McCain gimmick, to get the heart patient sympathy vote.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:09 AM | Report abuse

I guess it goes without saying that I'm not holding off on any jokes. You're a much better person than I, bc.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Ah, I remember back in the good old days, anywhere between the 1100s and the early 1700s, when we used to argue about burning "clean witches." Lot a people said there weren't no such thing as clean witches, that witches was witches.

I think we burnt us some astronomers, too, and that Joan of Arc gal.

I told 'em I didn't think it was a good idea, but would they listen to an old codger like me? Noooooooooooo....

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 15, 2008 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Well.. I just got the payback for making the tasteless jokes... I just found out I no longer have a job.

Sigh.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Far too many joke opportunities here:

"The campaign event Cheney will miss is for Marty Ozinga, a wealthy suburban concrete company owner."

Alas, there are also many jokes to be had concerning the state of the NukeAbode...

*SIGH*

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 15, 2008 11:16 AM | Report abuse

TBG, I am so sorry.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

And 'Mudge, the last time I pitched a baseball game was... uh... carry the 2...

The Sawx need way more pulling than I can provide. *SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 15, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

I'm sorry to hear your news TBG. Dang economy.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 15, 2008 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Eek TBG! No job? Golly. I hope this isn't a complete surprise to you. That would only make bad news worse.

I really don't think it was the tasteless joke.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 11:28 AM | Report abuse

TBG, I'm so sorry about the job. What about Son of TBG? Is he unemployed as well?

With your mad skillz, I'm sure you'll be snapped up very soon. In fact, you may already be pondering opportunities right now!

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 11:29 AM | Report abuse

Yeah.. Son of G, too. Poor kid was the one to get the news. I didn't go into the office today.

I'll be fine. Anyone need any help with graphic design and layout--or editing?

So the Great Depression has begun in the G household.

Son of G purchased a roundtrip ticket to Italy yesterday to visit a friend studying in Florence in mid-November. I'm still glad he did it; if he'd waited he wouldn't have spent the money and then he wouldn't have had the opportunity to go.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:34 AM | Report abuse

Oh no. TBG. I'm distressed to hear this. I know you are going to do just fine. Thinking of you.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 11:34 AM | Report abuse

My brother used to sing this song when we went camping and I was still just a kid.

Paradise by John Prine


When I was a child, my family would travel
Down to western Kentucky where my parents were born
There's a backwards old town that's often remembered
So many times that the memories are worn

And daddy, won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry, my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

Sometimes we'd travel right down the Green River
To the abandoned old prison down by Adrie Hill

Where the air smelled like snakes
And we'd shoot with our pistols
But empty pop bottles was all we would kill

And daddy, won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry, my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

The coal company came with the world's largest shovel
And they tortured the timber and stripped all the land
And they dug for their coal 'til the land was forsaken
They wrote it all down as the progress of man

And daddy, won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry, my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

And daddy, won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry, my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

So sorry to hear about the job tbg and scotty the sox....oysh.....

Hey Yoki,how are things up north?

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 15, 2008 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Well TBG, I always needs an editor - but unfortunately it doesn't pay. (Hope that makes you smile)

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Sorry to hear about your job, TBG. That stinks.

Would it be inviting the same fate upon me to point out that it does free up some more time to snark on the VP?

Posted by: If it does, byoolin will reserve us our usual table at the Alpha. | October 15, 2008 11:38 AM | Report abuse

So sorry about the awful news, TBG.

Wonder if the "abnormal rhythm" sounded anything like the "George of the Jungle" drums?

Raysmom, Inputting Inane Comments Since 2006™

Posted by: Raysmom | October 15, 2008 11:39 AM | Report abuse

TBG,
Tough break. Sorry to hear that. Hope you land on your feet or at least enjoy the break. Ces Marciuliano just did a bit on how to cope when laid off. Hopefully it doesn't cut to close to the bone.

http://francescoexplainsitall.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-to-make-most-of-your-layoff.html

kb,
NPR did a story on that 'State to State' book. In the North Dakota chapter they explained ditch skiing which seems to be some sort of land-based winter sport involving four-wheel-drive vehicles and rope. If only I knew anybody in North Dakota that could explain it better.

S-nuke,
I'll jump in where others fear to tread: That they can detect Cheney's heartbeat is a testament to how sensitive medical instruments have become. Ten years ago his heart would have been completely undetectable.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 11:43 AM | Report abuse

A coworker just opined that the cause of the Vice President's abnormal heart rhythm was an ice chip getting stuck somewhere in there.

Posted by: byoolin | October 15, 2008 11:45 AM | Report abuse

Blogging the debate will likely devolve from the inane to the asinine.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

Hey, gwe. Things are splendid up here. We've had a couple of dustings of snow the last two nights, which survives on north-facing slopes. The Bernese Mountain Dog is as happy as can be. The Collie not so much. Big annual ski-swap coming up. I need new skis and boots.

*Must remember to phone garage to get snow tires installed*

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

That stinks TBG.
If you need a good cheer do NOT go anywhere near Pearlstein's column. Jeez.

Looks like the Phillies are going to do what Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton and the other boys couln't do in the late seventies and go to the WS. I kind of like to see a National East team to go to the WS but the Phillies made a specialty of beaating my Spo's back then, I find them hard to love.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Oh, TBG and Son of G, I'm so sorry to hear about this.

You're both getting extra-big hugs next time I see ya.
Remember: It's OK - I'm Italian!

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 11:54 AM | Report abuse

The National Review fired Christopher Buckley after he endorsed Obama. I think he's one of those ObamaCons. My favorite is the Texas Megachurch pastor who performed the marriage for the Bush daughter. Also, Hagel's wife.

At least, TBG, when your employer let you go I bet they didn't imply you are a traitor.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 11:54 AM | Report abuse

SCC beating.

Yoki, snow is a 4-letter word and I believe it is not by chance.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Snow....Yikes it is almost 80 here today.

this may cheer you up tbg,I tried on my A-Blog T-Shirt this weekend and I was one sharped dressed man at the Apple Butter Festival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW_QCRGvT-g

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 15, 2008 12:07 PM | Report abuse

Here's what the NYT has to say about Christopher Buckley:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/arts/15arts-001.html?_r=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Get back in there and demand a promotion, TBG. Those people don't know what they are doing.

Sorry to hear it. Now if we could all get paid to blog...

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 12:11 PM | Report abuse

TBG, I'm so very sorry. *HUGSSSSSSSSS*

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 15, 2008 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Here's what BabelFishes gave me

a woman is a vessel
full of mystical perfume
like Annabel and Ulalume
a woman is a vessel

and for my silent soul
consumed by pain
a woman is a vessel
full of mystical perfume


I believe Annabel is Annabel Lee (EAP pome)

Posted by: omni | October 15, 2008 12:22 PM | Report abuse

"Clean Coal," from the research I've seen, either promises to do things that science can't back or is just making it cleaner. Many coal plants built in the 1970s are just now making improvements that the EPA mandated decades ago, but these plants were grandfathered in. Most of the clean coal proponents use carbon sequestration as the cornerstone of their argument, and recent studies have shown that this technique is not scientifically feasible for at least 10-20 years.

Yet, we as a nation have no current suitable alternative for electricity generation. Solar only generates power during daylight (and primarily only for 4-6 hours at high capacity). The best locations for wind farms are remote areas in the midwest that are too far off the electric grid to be able to transport the electricity to where it is needed. Natural gas is cleaner, but we do not have the gas resources at this time, plus it still creates emissions. And the fact that a nuclear plant hasn't been built in the US since the 1970s speaks for itself.

The lesson of all of this is unless you want your electricity turned off, we will need to continue to burn coal. With some of the "clean coal" technologies we can continue to make it better, but without some major advances it will never be "clean." But these changes will take at least a decade, as the design, permitting and construction phases are not fast processes. The automobile market can make a much faster change in overall emissions (transportation is a close second to power generation in terms of CO2 emissions according to EPA estimates).

Posted by: WV Native | October 15, 2008 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Also the best place for wind power is wherever the wind blows. Such as the peaks of the Appalachians. Where recently a wind farm was denied on the grounds of its visibility; visual clutter. The huge stands of dead trees caused by acid rain, caused by sulfur emissions, apparently does not faze the locals and the officials who made this decision too badly.

Although to be fair, the judgment was made on the "agricultural windmill" exemption, and the wind farm was not seen as agricultural.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Also, on the comment above about mountaintop removal coal mining; this a very misunderstood concept. Mountaintop removal was begun to allow the mining companies to leave some flat land near communities so that factories could be built. Most of southern WV is very rugged, with almost no suitable options for building any type of factory. The flat land is limited to small valleys, most only about 1000 feet wide with creeks, roads and houses taking up most of the available space. There isn't room for any other type of development without leveling a mountain, which is a huge deterrent for anyone looking to build here.

Strip mining laws require the mining company to return the land to 15% of its original contour, but the companies could get permits to leave it flat to open up future development. If strip mining is done properly, the mine site should look like an abandoned farm after reclamation. "Valley fills" are another term thrown around, but these fills are essential for any type of mining, even underground mining. Coal in the ground has other rocks in it which are removed after mining, and has to be put somewhere. As mentioned earlier, southern WV is very rugged, the only place to put the rock is in a valley (you can't very well stack it on a ridge line). The typically permit process should only allow valleys to be filled that only have flow rarely; constant flow streams require higher permit requirements.

The problem is that the people who issue the permits are too often tied to the mining companies. Mountaintop removal permits started getting issued for areas many miles from any sizable community, and valley fills were permitted for any valley, regardless of the stream. If the regulators could separate themselves from the interests of the coal companies, mining could be done in a way that was as environmental friendly as possible. However, WV government has plenty of corruption as "coal is king."

Posted by: WV Native | October 15, 2008 12:32 PM | Report abuse

gwe, thanks for posting those Prine lyrics. I thought of doing it myself, but then decided if I just waited and hoped, somebody else would. The Boodle is somewhat predictable, if eccentric.

Posted by: kbertocci | October 15, 2008 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Sorry to hear about the job loss, TBG and Son of G.

It stinks to get the axe any time of year, but at least they didn't wait until two weeks before Christmas (says one who's been there).

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 12:42 PM | Report abuse

"The automobile market can make a much faster change in overall emissions (transportation is a close second to power generation in terms of CO2 emissions according to EPA estimates)."

True, but but the big question is a change to what?

Given the economy these days (i.e., consumers' abilities to purchase new automobiles) and the state of the auto industry itself, I don't know if we can depend on that.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 12:43 PM | Report abuse

That sucks about your job, TBG and Son of G. Those idiots don't know what they're losing, I'm sure.
If you want to avoid neck strain and squint eye don't go anywhere near Nelson's column.

Posted by: Boko | October 15, 2008 12:44 PM | Report abuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrancing_Flame

Alternative energy.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Interesting stuff WV Native and Welcome!!

I hope you stick around some.How is the color in your neck of the woods? Here in the eastern panhandle it is simply spectacular.

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 15, 2008 12:47 PM | Report abuse

Anonymouse - indeed.
Here's another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence_ignition

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Nancy Reagan fell and broke her pelvis.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/15/AR2008101501513.html

Pardon my French, but what the heck is goin' *on* out there?

Waitaminute, the GOP didn't get the email about painting red wine over their doorways to stave off the Angel of Hospitalization, did they?

Seriously, I hope Ms. Reagan's feeling better soon. That's a difficult injury for a person of her age to recover from.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 1:00 PM | Report abuse

WV Native speaks good sense. I still don't understand why nuclear is not a viable option being debated.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Nuclear is actually moving forward full steam in the United States, but it’s going to take at least 10 years to get plants online. There are now more than a dozen reactors that companies have announced and are actively pursuing, but even filing for the necessary permits takes a long time when it comes to nuclear power. For gas-fired plants you don’t need a lot of time, but for nuclear it takes years of work just to file the permit. We’re now seeing three facilities that are going through the process of site-only permitting. These are all existing sites with operating nuclear power plants. The new permit is for adding more units. All three are likely to get their site-only permits within a year.
http://petrochemical.ihs.com/newsletters/energy-apr06-2.jsp

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

http://www.ne.doe.gov/np2010/neScorecard/neScorecard.html

Seventeen power companies submitted 19 loan guarantee applications for 14 sites with a total of 21 reactors by the Part I deadline of 9/29/08.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 1:19 PM | Report abuse

TBG and SoTBG, I'm sad to hear such troubling news.

Check your e-mail, and remember I'm thinking about you both.

Posted by: dbG | October 15, 2008 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Announced Nuclear Locations

* Bell Bend (PA)—PPL (formerly Susquehanna)
* Bellefonte (AL)—Tennessee Valley Authority
* Elmore County (ID)—Alternate Energy Holdings
* Callaway (MO)—AmerenUE
* Calvert Cliffs (MD)—UniStar
* Clinton (IL)—Exelon
* Comanche Peak (TX)—Luminant
* Fermi (MI)—DTE Energy
* Grand Gulf (MS)—Entergy
* Shearon Harris (NC)—Progress Energy
* Levy County (FL)—Progress Energy
* Nine Mile Point (NY)—UniStar
* North Anna (VA)—Dominion Energy
* River Bend (LA)—Entergy
* South Texas Project (TX)—STP Nuclear
* V.C. Summer (SC)—SCE&G
* Turkey Point (FL)—Florida Power & Light
* Victoria County (TX)—Exelon Generation
* Vogtle (GA)—Southern Nuclear
* William States Lee III (SC)—Duke Energy

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Good Kit!

Reading Hoffman, I was shocked to see how Nairobi has changed for the worst. I used to live in Ngong. It was a good place to escape the madness of Nairobi.

Sometimes we had lion visit our garden.

Traveling on the Lunatic Express was always a treat for me. A lovely experience from a bygone era. The dining coach had burgundy velvet drapes and pristine white, starched table cloths covered the tables. Dinner was poached tilapia, roast beef or curry, dessert.


Posted by: Brag | October 15, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the facts, any mice. I'm glad to hear it.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Tilapia poachers perched along the Nile are fishing for trouble.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 1:28 PM | Report abuse

From my perspective, WV has the facts right in general, including the points about the permit issuers being the fox in the hen house. Coal burning can, and is, being made cleaner than it once was, with all manner of scrubbers and such for sulphur emissions. Yes, CO2 is still a problem that has not yet found an economical solution. But still in all, coal mining, whether in WV or Wyoming, is a major defiler of the envrionment, especially strip/surface/mountain top mining.

Nuclear power still has the substantial problem of what to do with the radioactive wastes. Some of that stuff will remain dangerous for hundreds of years, and no one wants to have that stuff in their neighborhood (see, Yucca Mountain).

There was a program on the Discovery Channel (one of a series) on sending microwave power from orbit. The engineering problems appear massive, not to mention the costs of building the transmitters and sending them into orbit plus the ground stations. And I wonder whether or not the low power needed to be "safe" is worth all the effort and expense. I think in the short term (the next century or so) we'll need to diversify into natural gas, wind, solar (hopefully with some breakthroughs in efficiency) and traditional systems. If we can pefect fuel cell technology for transportation use, that would be a big help on the petroleum front.

Posted by: ebtnut | October 15, 2008 1:33 PM | Report abuse

TBG,
I'm in somewhat the same position as Son of G. Early this year, I somewhat reluctantly signed on for a tour of gardens in Japan, figuring that with frequent-flyer miles to handle the air fare, it was affordable and the trip would essentially be with friends.

Since then, I got a powerful urge to purge the kitchen and replace the cabinetry with something more functional. Then the roof needed to be replaced (so why did I buy the cabinets?). And then it became clear that I need to retire.

So I'm looking forward to scenery, gardens, art, hot springs, temples, noodle shops, Tokyo's fish market--then retiring a week after returning.

Over at the Other Newspaper, a fresh headline warns "Next Victim of Turmoil May Be Your Salary". In that context, I'm thankful to have a secure defined-benefit pension.

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 15, 2008 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Certain radioactive elements (such as plutonium-239) in “spent” fuel will remain hazardous to humans and other living beings for hundreds of thousands of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Coal has its own waste problems (including mercury emissions). I'm sure there's plenty of analyses of coal vs. nuclear waste. My own unexpert suspicion is that nuclear looks pretty good, provided you can absolutely, definitely ensure there won't be another Chernobyl.

[A little-used surfing spot near Sebastian Inlet is called Chernobyls, but that's another matter].

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 15, 2008 1:42 PM | Report abuse

Amen, Dave, Amen.

Posted by: slyness | October 15, 2008 1:42 PM | Report abuse

Thanks to Anonymous for the info on nuclear plants. The permitting process is nasty, so until construction begins I'm not holding my breath. The other issue still is what to do with the nuclear waste... Yucca Mountain might not ever happen, and otherwise the waste is primarily sitting at the plants, with isn't the best long term solution. I think if we can solve the waste problem nuclear fission is the way to go (fusion would be ideal, but is likely still 20-30 years off). Just build the plants in WV so the coal miners will have some work!

And to greenwithenvy, the leaves just really got going here in Morgantown this week, so we will likely peak within the next few days. The comments on this blog have to be some of the best thought out and reasonable discussion I've seen on the web. Too many comment suggestions turn to name calling and petty arguments; this is a refuge for common sense.

Posted by: WV Native | October 15, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

Awww -- that's a real shame, TBG. In earlier times (way earlier), I was laid off regularly ('cause the men have families to support, you know), and it always stunk. I hope you are able to find something you enjoy and that pays well. Or, in the alternative, I hope you are able to find something you enjoy and that pays. . . .

As for Cheney, my only question is how one can have an abnormal heart rhythm if one doesn't have a heart?

Finally, am I the only one who noticed that Joel used *italics* in his Kit???? When the &**(&^$% are *we* -- the faithful and able boodlers -- gonna have access to the italic machine? bc may be Italian, but we all truly need to become Italic, eh?

Posted by: firsttimeblogger | October 15, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

TBG and Son of G.

Sorry to hear about the jobs. But things usually work out for the best.

Posted by: Brag | October 15, 2008 1:46 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the compliment, WV, and welcome. Thanks also to any mouse for the facts & stats.

I have often wondered, aloud and with increasing vigor in some circles, why some of our tribes don't partner with a state or private power company and propose a traditional or nuclear power plant. A handful of our (39!) tribes are beginning to amass the financial capital to make this feasible, with a partner, and they bring land and excellent business opportunities to the table which utilities may not have on their own. There are real advantages to having a sovereign partner. There's an area here, by a town called Cushing, that is already a sort of pipeline capitol because so many come through or intersect there. There is also Indian land available. That is one of many locations where I really think it would be feasible to have a tribe/state/private energy partnership investing in a power plant. Tribes could also help their and our bottom line by investing in energy infrastructure.

The Sioux are trying to start a wind farm project, which will be a great model if it works. However, from what I read, had the non-tribal developer taken a few lessons (read: hired some experienced advisors) on business dealings with tribal soveriegns and the BIA, the start-up discussions would have been much easier.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Fascinating discussion this afternoon.

Wow. Look at the market. What, did Bush say more words of encouragement or something?

Busy evening at home. I will try to watch the debates, but might just hide downstairs with the rabbits.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 15, 2008 1:54 PM | Report abuse

but she's my mother." Italics do not copy from kit to boodle.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 1:55 PM | Report abuse

ebtnut, see Ben Bova's piece from last Sunday's WaPo Outlook section on that very topic.

Boko referenced it first, though.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 2:11 PM | Report abuse

Hi WV. I am from Montana, which is sorta like WestByGod. Our coal is close to the surface so we have that hard-scarred landscape of remembrance.

About energy, we need to look anew a demand side management as part of the palette of simultaneous solutions. The time for gi-huge-ic tax credits or rebates for industry and homeowners is long over due.

Real demand side management will also require a hard look and box cutter blade to energy subsidies. Subsidies? What subsidies? All around us and so pervasive that we perceive cheap energy as our birthright, like air, water, health, and really good shoes.

AnyMouse, care for this handle? You are welcome to it. We need to keep you separate from the baddie Any Nonny Mices who drive by.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 2:12 PM | Report abuse

I wish I had a neighbor "Angus." Would be great to say these chestnuts at work and play:

"The other day Angus and I took down the menacing catalpa tree."

"Angus, dag nab it, strung his all-solar Christmas lights up yesterday. I wanted to be first this year."

"Come over for dinner. What to bring? Nada. Angus -- grill man -- has got it covered."

--
TBG and DofC; sorry about money squeezes. May the great accordion box of bills rain down monies upon you.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 2:17 PM | Report abuse

I'm afraid at what might happen to me if I make any wisecracks about Nancy Reagan's health. So consider my mouth zipped. No snarky comments from me. No sirreee!

Thanks to all for your kind words of support. The nice thing is that Son of G has contacted a former employer who has already made an appointment with him to take him to lunch tomorrow. That must mean something good--even if it's a free sandwich.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 2:17 PM | Report abuse

There is such a strong relationship between coal production and power plants that people in the railcar manufacturing business look at the number of power plants projects in the books to forecast the number of coal cars that will be ordered in any given period. My numbers are getting old but I remember the industry was expecting 500 coal cars order per power plant. That is 5 unit trains of 100 car each rolling between the mine and the power plant all year long, with maybe a little less activity during the winter when the AC needs are lower. At a length of 53-54ft per car each train is then about a mile long. At the time, some 30 such trains were leaving Wyoming every day, heading for Eastern and Midwestern power plants. Coal is a big business.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 2:18 PM | Report abuse

*AT HOME, ON MY OWN PC AND ON MY OWN TIME -- jes' sayin*

Where to begin, where to begin...

First of all, WV Native:

"And the fact that a nuclear plant hasn't been built in the US since the 1970s speaks for itself."

Wrong.

Almost half of the currently operating U.S. reactors were licensed and brought online between 1979 and 1996. Just last year, the Tennessee Valley Authority completed a multi-year project bringing an almost 20-year-dormant plant back online, and TVA's working to finish another reactor it had earlier put on hold.

Even if you want to amend your statement to say "no one had requested a license between 1979 and 2007," what exactly would that mean without examining the changing societal conditions during those years?

As for recent applications to build new reactors, this is a good place to start:

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/new-reactors/new-licensing-files/expected-new-rx-applications.pdf

What, exactly, is "nasty" about taking 3 to 4 years in a well-defined, transparent process (including legal challenges) to determine if a proposed reactor meets stringent requirements?

The Department of Energy's application for Yucca Mountain is under review, and in the meantime the technical specialists who oversee existing methods of storing spent reactor fuel say those methods will remain safe and effective for decades to come:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2008/08-185.html

*deep breath as I head off to more homeowner adventures* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 15, 2008 2:20 PM | Report abuse

I think the wind generators on the mountain ridges in West Virginia are incredibly beautiful.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 2:22 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for better facts and informed views, Scotty.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 2:23 PM | Report abuse

I was just reading National Geographic's september 2008 issue about soil restoration and how charcoal plays a major role. Interesting reading, dirt isn't as dull as you'd think. However I'd have liked to see a graphic working out how charcoal forms and why it is a carbon sink. That'd be a true geo-graphic.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 15, 2008 2:23 PM | Report abuse

http://www.electricalengineer.com/index.php?option=com_zippynews&id=236&task=detailnews&cid=

Most efficient solar cell.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 2:24 PM | Report abuse

Yes, but shrieking... if one coal train leaves Wyoming heading east and another takes off heading west, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 2:30 PM | Report abuse

African or European?

Posted by: Raysmom | October 15, 2008 2:37 PM | Report abuse

What we REALLY need is for some genius to come up with a way to make affordable energy out of carbon dioxide.

Posted by: slyness | October 15, 2008 2:39 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod! How are you? The family?

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 2:40 PM | Report abuse

Hah, apropos of absolutely nothing, I like a hotel promotion I just read about. This chain has a pay-your-age plan. If you stay between two and three nights, the second and third nights you pay the dollar equivalent of your birth year. In my case, then, I could pay, um, never mind.


What I really like about it is that it saves the oldest people the most, which is perfect. My Mum, for instance, would pay $32 for the second night. Pretty cool.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 2:49 PM | Report abuse

WV Native, I've been hearing that nuclear fusion was 20-30 years away since I was a child. And I wish it were so.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I've been waiting for a nuclear fusion- or matter/anti-matter-powered flying car since before Armstrong walked on the Moon, and I haven't seen one in a dealership yet.

I'd love to, though.

firsttimeblogger, note that in addition to italics and various fonts, Joel can also imbed images in his blog items. He has powers we cannot imagine.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Maybe Scottynuke has different info than I do, but I was using the DOE's website (http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/nuc_reactors/reactsum.html). According to that, the most recent construction activity started in 1977. The DOE data does state that the commercial start date for 51 of the 104 plants in operation in the US was after 1979, but from my understanding the permits/licensing had to be issued before construction could begin. Something must be a bit misleading, as based on this data some plants took 24 years from the construction start to commercial operation. According to the DOE's site, TVA just announced plans to finish the Watts Barr number 2 unit, but the permit was issued in 1973.

And my comment on the "nasty" permitting process refers to the public opposition to get a nuclear plant built, which has been very strong ever since Three Mile Island (and made worse with Chernobyl). Maybe "nasty" was a poor word choice, but it is a time-consuming and costly venture, which made nuclear and unattractive option for many years.

And Yucca Mountain has been studied by the DOE since 1978, yet is still not ready (and congress cut funding yet again).

My point to this something needs to change (the public's view of nuclear power, a long term waste storage solution) to make nuclear a more viable option, and this will take time. Upgrades to coal plants can be a interim solution to provide our electric needs in a "cleaner" form than current production, but I do not advocate burning coal for another 100 years if we intend to be able to live on this planet.

Posted by: WV Native | October 15, 2008 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Post-funeral daze, Yoki. We had 10 people in the house-- all siblings and 2 cousins. Now we have my aunt and uncle staying as we do the slow task of clearing out my grandma's place.

The wake was convival with storytelling, although the viewing was grim. I thought it'd be over with the burial ceremony-- Wilbrodog was whining at the gravesite, but we had so many people who were departing the next day, we had dinner for 25 at the Holiday Inn-- great uncles, aunts, second cousins, etc.

My great-aunt Simone by marriage is about as tall as you and nearly lifted me off my feet with a hug, and she's 80-something.

I definitely have another destination to visit in Canada (besides chez Yoki/ le H des P-B); I've been curious to see where my grandma was born, and lots of her relatives still live and farm there.


Posted by: Wilbrod | October 15, 2008 3:29 PM | Report abuse

Where are the ancestral lands? Could we combine a visit chez Yoki with that tour?

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 3:46 PM | Report abuse

http://crimesagainstnaturemovie.com/trailer.html

Dunno if this already posted, don't think so...

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 3:49 PM | Report abuse

WV Native, welcome!

Just FYI, Scotty works for NRC, that's why he's Scottynuke and why he responded as he did, because he's home and off the clock. He's got insider info.

I'm biased toward nuclear power generation, because my ex is a health physicist and I know a little something about the tradeoffs. As an industry, they do pretty well with safety.

Posted by: slyness | October 15, 2008 4:00 PM | Report abuse

Things you can't burn to make power (unless you use some other energy source to change them into something else):
water
ashes
carbon dioxide
oxidized iron or metals

Things you can burn to make power:
carbon
hydrogen
wood, grass, paper, poo, critters, fat
unoxidized metals

Posted by: Mr. Chemistry | October 15, 2008 4:01 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Mr. Chemistry. Where are our alchemists? Forget turning metal into gold. Why can't we turn water or metalinto energy? That would really turn metal into gold. Perhaps advanced physics, which seems pretty esoteric to this non-sciencey person, could open an alchemy branch.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 4:25 PM | Report abuse

Air into energy, with a tincture of fire from Brother Salamander.

(Hey, air plants as in certain bromeliads! I rest my case, er, hazelwood wand.)


Posted by: Alchemistian | October 15, 2008 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Dangit, slyness, ya outed me!!!

*still at home, BTW* :-)

And WV Native, I'd be kinda biased anyway towards the agency that licenses and oversees reactor operation. Althought the tone of our comments obviously differs, we agree that nuclear power didn't "stop" after 1979. One more definitive source of info on current U.S. reactors (Appendix A, specifically):

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/staff/sr1350/v20/sr1350v20.pdf

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 15, 2008 4:33 PM | Report abuse

TBG,
Now that Cheney has been rebooted, can you get your job back?

I'm just back from the Apple Store. I took the computer out of the box. Now what????

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 4:45 PM | Report abuse

Maggie... excellent choice! Now just plug it in and turn it on!

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 4:48 PM | Report abuse

We would be able to get massive lots of energy by burning the philosopher's stone... if we were to find it.

Posted by: Albert Magnonymous | October 15, 2008 4:52 PM | Report abuse

Nonsense, Albert Not-so-Magnanimous. I came up with a failure-proof way of getting unlimited energy while you were still already dead or possible still living.

I wrote about it extensively. Good luck translating it into English, though.
Nya ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Posted by: Roger Baconymous | October 15, 2008 4:55 PM | Report abuse

Anons multiplied
left objective brainy posts
and subjective, right?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Where is Don I-170?

Posted by: Brag | October 15, 2008 5:04 PM | Report abuse

Yes, Brag, where is Don270.

Me, off to a bike ride, where no carbon will be combusted, save that released by respiration. I garden, therefore am vetted by the O2 I coax into being.

AnyMouse could be a sock puppetry-phenom. Wondering about that. If you are not, please accept my apology, Any (Authentic) Mouse.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 5:09 PM | Report abuse

As has been reported, the result of our election is a minority Conservative government.

To RD’s point, parliamentary systems work well in providing stable governments, but not very well when you have several parties. So right now we have a parliamentary system culture (ie partisan) but with proportional representation results. Personally I was hoping for a majority to eliminate the Bloq’s balance of power. Quebecers are smart, strategic voters and I suspect they would return to the main federalist parties if the Bloq couldn’t make or break governments.

Good thoughts to TBG and SoTBG. May this be one of those circumstances that is felt to have been for the best in retrospect.

On kit, this discussion forced me to look up this issue of "scrubbers" which are oft-touted as allowing for "clean coal". Good for reducing pollutants, apparently, but do not reduce CO2 emissions in any way.

Posted by: SonofCarl | October 15, 2008 5:29 PM | Report abuse

Success! You all are right. I took it out of the box, and when I finally learned what to do with what seemed to be a cord without a hole to plug it into, I was ready to go. This is my first foray into the new computer!

Now if I can just figure out how to enlarge the seemingly .5 font, I'll be able to read what I wrote. (Not that I intend to proof read though!)

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 5:36 PM | Report abuse

New clean coal is a very fine goal, and a very fine goal indeed
It’s cleaned in the pipe by an elf and a sprite
And carried by unicorns three

Every scrubber did a fine scrubbing and there’s nary a pollutant to see
Oh there’s none so rare as can compare
With clean coal for green energy

Posted by: SonofCarl | October 15, 2008 5:38 PM | Report abuse

Lovely, SonofCarl. Boodle poetry welding strikes again.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 6:05 PM | Report abuse

I'm sorry about your jobs TBG and SoG. Tough break. Hope it brings a silver lining of new opportunities for you both.

Posted by: Aloha | October 15, 2008 6:11 PM | Report abuse

Yucca Mtn should not ever open--it can't meet most of the requirements for a long-term nuclear waste facility. In the 1980s Louisiana Senator Bennett Johnson put through the "Screw Nevada" bill, to eliminate a Louisiana and a Texas site also then under consideration. Nevada's Yucca Mtn became the only high-level site legally possible. The DOE has since spent a huge chunk on money on lipstick for that particular pig without much success.

Another nuclear waste site did make it through the nuclear repository screening process--the WIPP site, near Carlsbad, N.M. That site is supposedly for transuranic waste only, again by federal law. However, Senator Lindsay Graham of South Carolina was under pressure to remove low-level waste from the Savannah River Site in his state; the result was that the DOE changed the definition of "transuranic" so that low-level waste mixed with transuranics could be permanently stored at WIPP. Thus, some of the most expensive real estate in the world is now used for storage of waste that doesn't need anywhere near that secure a storage.

Say it ain't so, Scottynuke!

Posted by: No. 9 | October 15, 2008 6:19 PM | Report abuse

Here's how they scrub coal for sulfur: they dig up a bunch of limestone, CaCo3 and use some extra burning coal to bake of the CO2 from the limestone, leaving CaO. Add the CO2 generated to our atmosphere. Then, filter the exhaust of the coal burning, through the CaO. Gypsum, CaSO4, (and some H2O along for the ride)will be the result. Sell the gypsum to sheetrock manufacturers for as much as you can get for it. The cost of removing the sulfur is paid for by the excess CO2 generated in the process.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 6:28 PM | Report abuse

I'm such a warped idiot! Not once, but twice I thought I saw a headline which read, "Nancy Reagan Hospitalized with a Broken Penis".

I kept telling myself that it seemed pretty unlikely, but I really ought to read the article. I think I get it now!

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Jumper.. but I like the idea of an elf and a sprite and the unicorns three.

Thanks to all of you for your kind words about the job. I do see this as an amazing opportunity. I had a great job for many years and always knew it would end someday.

I am someone who usually manages to find a silver lining (even if it's torn and shabby).

I'll think of eidrib and her new job and know that there's a great one out there for me, too. Someone will be smart enough and lucky enough to hire me!

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 6:47 PM | Report abuse

How about energy from pond scum?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/381932_superalgae06.html
Not too crazy about nucular here in earthquake country. The last plants that went down had the unfortunate name of WPPS...
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=5482
And we've got Hanford, too, which has leakage problems.

Thank goodness for hydroelectric.

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 15, 2008 6:56 PM | Report abuse

I don't mean to imply that hydroelectric is without its problems or opponents. It does play h e l l with the salmon. Just that there is not a "one size fits all" when it comes to energy production.

Welcome, WV Native!

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 15, 2008 7:04 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of nuclear facilities - this will slow down the refurbishment - ooops.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081015.wbarge1015/BNStory/National/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20081015.wbarge1015

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 7:25 PM | Report abuse

One of my last technical electives in college was a course called Energy Conversion. Most of the technology covered in it including photovoltaics, MHD, and fuel cells has yet to become commercially viable in the past 20 years. Perhaps they may yet, but burning dinosaurs has a very strong lock-in advantage.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 7:36 PM | Report abuse

Jeepers Yellojkt, I haven't thought about magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) in years. Wow. That really takes me back to agonizing over sunspots. Not to mention tensors with Einstein notation. And the musical ensemble "Three Dog Night." (It's complicated)

MHD gens were supposed to be coal fired weren't they?

Anyway I am avoiding the debate by hiding down here with the bunnies. I realize that this aversion to watching conflict on television is odd.

But, then again, so is hiding down here with the bunnies.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 15, 2008 8:25 PM | Report abuse

Don't worry, RD... we boodle so you don't have to watch.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Not odd, RD Padouk, just ineffective, since you are in the Boodle and some (a very few) of us will Boodle the debate inanely insanely inversely in real time. Sorry.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 8:32 PM | Report abuse

RD, between you and Ivansmom I am feeling the pressure to come up with at least one nuggest of value.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 8:48 PM | Report abuse

The only thing I'll say, No. 9, is that a group of highly skilled, dedicated professionals will take a great deal of time examining a set of verifiable facts (as opposed to your already having made up your mind) in determining whether Yucca Mountain is appropriate.

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 15, 2008 8:55 PM | Report abuse

And will the boodled debate include the usual social semiotics?

Posted by: MercifulLeeDickens | October 15, 2008 8:56 PM | Report abuse

I am game. Wonder if they will wear the same tie color. Do men wish for more sartorial expressions? Do boodlers have yens for argly socks in teal and oatmeal and milk chocolate?

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 8:56 PM | Report abuse

I wonder if McCain has figured out yet not to wear a striped tie. That moire effect is awful.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Except for those pesky pollution & global warming issues, burning dinosaurs & other fossil carbon has the great advantage that it's a very concentrated form of solar energy. The amount of carbon in the whole system (like the amount of water in the system) is relatively fixed, and has no particular bearing on the amount of energy in the system. But where, and when, and how it's available, now that's a different set of questions, yes?

I seem to recall that there are basically three types of commercially usable energy: solar (including all of the forms concentrated into fossil fuels, and such leftover slosh as hydroelectric & wind), nuclear (we'll toss the eventual[?] fusion power into this pot), and geothermal (which is kind of a hybrid of the other two, with gravitational flexing and nuclear decay coming into play). Did I miss any?

Any of the forms of solar power which don't stir up too much fixed carbon (solar cells, solar thermal heating, hydroelectric [riparian and tidal], wind, etc.) are helpful on the global warming front, but they are not especially concentrated forms of power. The truly productive hydro plants, and solar & wind farms have to impound some very large tracts of land to do their work. In my opinion, there's nothing the matter with that, but it's a fact of life that has to be accepted, and big stuff typically requires a lot of expensive maintenance.

Nuke stuff wins all competitions for concentration of energy, but that very concentration brings all kinds of challenges. Toxic and/or highly energetic working materials & leftovers are an annoying and expensive pain in the butt with which to deal.

Geothermal energy, being essentially a mix of the other two, has (not entirely surprisingly) a mix of the problems of the other two. It's not always as concentrated as we might wish, and going after it often produces unintended (and not entirely desirable) side-effects.

Alas, as Heinlein and many others warned us, TANSTAAFL! I suspect that all we can do is muddle through with what we've got on hand, and keep trying to improve our tools.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 8:59 PM | Report abuse

Jim L. Good!
'
Seated at a table? Good setting

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:01 PM | Report abuse

I'm watching CNN tonight. I'll get to see the dials they've been talking about. I can't believe they found 30 people who are undecided.

Here we go....

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:01 PM | Report abuse

Whew, just blew home from work. Let the live boodling begin. Howdy cp and TBG.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:03 PM | Report abuse

Bob. S'a tie is pepperminty, the large stripes work better than small stripes; less jiggly moire, as TBG says

Posted by: college Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:03 PM | Report abuse

I'll try to be insanely inane; I'll try; I'll reeely try!

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 9:03 PM | Report abuse

T'nite Obama has the jiggety tie.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, I was pondering the previous energy comments, and wanted to bloviate a bit. I'll tune into the debate now!

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

Ladies and gentlemen, Brag is listening live to the debate.
*bowing to applause*


Posted by: Brag | October 15, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

Teddy Kennedy last time, Nancy Reagan this time. Get the impression all of John's friends are old and sick.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

"Nice to see you Senator Obama"

[but I still won't look at you]

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 9:05 PM | Report abuse

MaCain's suit is nice, subtle chalk stripe, reads nicely on screen;

McCain will likely be very Italianate this evening because he is seated. I sympathize because in am gestural, too.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:06 PM | Report abuse

Ok, the debate's starting -- around a kitchen table, from the looks of it.

Freddie Mae?
Oh dear, Senator McCain gets the first gaffe within a minute.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 9:06 PM | Report abuse

frosti - Dark! I like it! Mildly cruel with a hint of "there but the grace of God..."

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:07 PM | Report abuse

According to the CNN dial, the women are going off the charts for Obama; the men are also much happier than they were with McCain.

As soon as they each mention homeowners, the line starts dipping down for the men. Do they think they're saying "homos?"

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Eye contact, wow. Seems to throw McCain off though.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Obama sounds slightly plegmy; where is their water?
(Watching on PBS)

Hey, My friend Joe down the way IS a plumber...

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:08 PM | Report abuse

OMG! McCain looked at Obama!

Granted, it was barely a glance and it looked like it hurt, but he looked.

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 9:09 PM | Report abuse

I thought he was going to talk about "that one's" association with Bill the Terrarist, but it's Joe the Plumber instead!
I can never keep up with the latest fashions :-(

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:10 PM | Report abuse

Mildly cruel-that's me.

Interesting how McCain wants to help "Joe," Obama talks about "95%" and "you."

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:10 PM | Report abuse

Obama is duly flag-pinned on the lapel. Has McC ever worn a flag pin?

No tie tack on either. When did tie tacks go away? I should know this

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:11 PM | Report abuse

The split screen shows Obama looking toward PaCain while he looks away.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 9:12 PM | Report abuse

Why oh why, is it better to give to the rich and wait for it to trickle down and avoid sharing the wealth?

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:12 PM | Report abuse

I am coming in a little late - who is this Joe the Plumber? Perhaps McCain should look into the personal income taxes in those nations with low business taxes.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:13 PM | Report abuse

Camera angles on pool feed are odd. I see somebody in the left corner. Suit seems grey..is that Bob S?

He said Ireland....tax rate of 11 percent...artists and writers do NOT pay taxes there/

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:14 PM | Report abuse

Joe Sixpack is a plumber. Who probably makes more than me.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 9:14 PM | Report abuse

Again with Joe the Plumber!
They better start talking about the Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, and Bill the Spy, asap.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:15 PM | Report abuse

CP I thought that no tax policy for artists in Ireland was ending or ended (temporary measure), read something about that somewhere.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:16 PM | Report abuse

Had to snap back to PBS from CNN, that split screen makes McCain look like he's on something. Obama looks incredibly comfortable.

Profligate ways. Profligate is used nowhere near as often as it should.

McCain talks about the depression as if it's from memory.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Watching CNN with the reacto-meter, and McCain isn't moving the needles much. Obama's moving 'em significantly.

What's all this about Joe the plumber, and why is McCain cracking wise about him? (Sorry, couldn't leave that thread alone).

Obama saying he does not mind paying a little more in taxes, not sure how that's going to play, though.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

McCain remembers the Depression-era home loan programs fondly, apparently! :)

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Tis a gestures convention. Obama's long elegant hands are very beautiful;

McCains has sturdy peasant hands (like me and my dad's family) they carry intensity in the action. Percussive counting gestures.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

On my HDTV, McCain's suit is so purple Heath Ledger should be wearing it.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 9:18 PM | Report abuse

O. gave a good answer on the deficit --

CP: McC said that the taxes on Businesses is 11% in The Ould Sod.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 9:18 PM | Report abuse

Again with the overhead projector! Is the bear study next.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:19 PM | Report abuse

The overhead projector is the new grizzly bear paternity test.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:19 PM | Report abuse

McCain hates planetariums.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 9:19 PM | Report abuse

Dmd, tax comes up constantly for redo, but stays. Some relief for teachers too, but more hidden in the details,

Scalpel, hatchet, earmarks, screwy things, colorful words

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:20 PM | Report abuse

Did McCain just argue the Democratic side? He's on thin ice.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 9:20 PM | Report abuse

SCC: Is vs Are . Feh!

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 9:20 PM | Report abuse

Does McCain look angry to you?

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:21 PM | Report abuse

bc - Not only don't I know the inside story behind Joe the plumber, but I don't know what the "CNN reacto-meter" is.

Although from the context, I think I've kinda figured them both out, just like I eventually realized that Nancy Reagan's injury was to her "pelvis".

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:21 PM | Report abuse

I am not President Bush. McCain says...hatchet scalpel AGAIN. Watchdog

Obama responds with tort reform --.charter schools. pay for performance

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Women hated what McCain just said.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Not angry, frustrated. Unable to follow the quick argument. Disappointed!

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Damn that Obama! He asked for $3M for an overhead projector for a planetarium! Jesu forfend if any money should be spent to promote the sciences! Give the damn kids a flashlight and a piece of paper with holes poked in it and tell'em to kiss Uranus!

Three MILLION dollars!

Outrageous!

That's like, what? A beer at a MLB game?

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of scalpels, how does McCain stand on "planaria"? [You can cut them in half, and get two new ones, right? That's what I seem to recall.]

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:24 PM | Report abuse

Obama hit McC with a couple of zingers. McCain reacts --eyes widen, head snaps. Smiles genuinely.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 9:24 PM | Report abuse

Daughter just said, "Can we NOT watch in high def? McCain's too scary."

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:25 PM | Report abuse

TBG I have noticed women do not react well to McCain's more combative style.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:25 PM | Report abuse

OK, McCain is speaking truthfully about his record of (attempted) reform. He would be better served by sticking to that, rather than smearing Obama.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:25 PM | Report abuse

High road!
Good question, Bob. Will we apologize?

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:25 PM | Report abuse

Oh, weird. That was the next question, basically.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

Whoa... good question. Face to face accusations. Cool.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

Oh! Schieffer just called both of them on "say those bad things to each others' face"!

This should be good.

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

Here it comes. If he'd only done town meetings, I wouldn't be sliming him.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 15, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

I agree, Bob S. (our Bob).

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:27 PM | Report abuse

The moderator asked them to speak face to face, yet McCain still won't face him.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Interesting reaction to McCain speaking about the Negative comments - it is not going over well especially with women.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Waahhh! I was forced to use this negative tone 'cos he wouldn't play with me in town hall meetings.
And Lewis hurt me a lot and that one won't repudiate his comments...waaahhh! And he has more money and I can prove it! Waahh!

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

The women do not like it when McCain attacks Obama about anything.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Is Obama's tie jiggly in Hi Def?

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:29 PM | Report abuse

"Obama has more money and won't spread it around!" WHAAAAAA!

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:29 PM | Report abuse

Hello pot, you're black.

Hello kettle, I'd rather not play this game. I'd rather focus on what's for dinner.

But you're black.

Okay... Eff you... You're black, too.

Now can we talk about dinner and who's paying for it?

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 9:30 PM | Report abuse

TBG, we would need all the camera angles at all time to know this. Debate 101 is to NOT look at your opponent.

SPORTS!

Posted by: college Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:30 PM | Report abuse

"Is Obama's tie jiggly in Hi Def?"

Not at all. The stripes are farther apart than McCain's have been in the other two debates.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:30 PM | Report abuse

The tie doesn't jiggle on my HD. Funny, I just noticed that the UnAmerican John McCain is NOT wearing a flag pin. The horror!

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

Who's Miss Portray? Hopefully not someone related to Miss Palin.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

Ooh, Scheifer confronting both Obama and MCain on the nastiness of their campaigns.

Now McCain's calling Obama a liar.

That's an interesting tactic.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

'tooni - EXACTLY!!

LOL!

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

"Is Obama's tie jiggly in Hi Def?"

Not at all. The stripes are farther apart than McCain's have been in the other two debates.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

Obama is handling this Lewis Palin campaign stuff well

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

McCain smiling when Obama mentions the things said at Palin's rallys is very weird.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 15, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

Both ties look fine in HD. You can nearly count the stars on Obama's flag pin.

John Lewis used to be my congressman. Leave him alone.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 9:33 PM | Report abuse

Sorry for that double post. I hadn't seen it show up yet. Oops.

Oohhhh both men and women love the change in tone "What is important is..."

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:33 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, you HiDef ers; that would explain why so many ties this season are making through the costume gauntlet. HiDef is trumping the analog rules.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:34 PM | Report abuse

Obama scored well with the "cynical voters" comments.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:34 PM | Report abuse

I'm proud of my groupies!
And I'll punch your daylights out if you insult my veteran fans and my lady fans and my patriotic fans, even though you didn't insult them, but I'll pretend like you did, and your peeps wear T-shirts!

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:34 PM | Report abuse

Some "french" people come to my rallies"?

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Folks do not like the idea that McCain is proud of the people at his rallies.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:35 PM | Report abuse

The Adler Planetarium's official statement.

http://www.adlerplanetarium.org/pressroom/pr/2008_10_08_AdlerStatement_aboutdebate.pdf

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Well, I'm with RD, I can't watch the debate...just too much for me, but I want to thank you all for your commentary. It has me in stitches!

Posted by: Kim | October 15, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Here comes Ayers, Acorn etc.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 15, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

French people are hiding everywhere.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

M: I've repudiated everything that's been said that's out of line. [except for "terrorist!" and "kill him!" and "traitor", because that's part of our double-top-secret platform]

M: I don't care about some washed up terrorist. [but I'm going to do everything I can to rub him in your face to avoid real issues]

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Obama needs to mention William Timmons.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Obama is using Rogerian argument: reasoned civility against his opponent. Named for the humanist Carl Rogers.....the rhetorician and humanist in me approves.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:37 PM | Report abuse

Your peeps are destroying the fabric of democracy. What's that you say, my repub peeps have done a good job of that already? Nananana can't hear you....nananana...

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:37 PM | Report abuse

Obama is one cool cucumber. I wish his mother could see him.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:38 PM | Report abuse

McCain throwing in a dash of fear-mongering.

He's making Obama go in the defense, though.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

Get the paddles McCain is flat lining

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

Obama is cleaning McCain's clock.
You heard it here Nth

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:40 PM | Report abuse

Did Barack just say that he & Biden consult on porn policy?

And did McCain just ask about Obama's "witch" foundation?

This is mostly new stuff to me!

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:40 PM | Report abuse

Oh, whatever happened to REAL boldness - taking it all in a weird and brand-new direction: Obama, accuse him of knowing Tennesee Wiliams.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 9:40 PM | Report abuse

"I wish his mother could see him." So true.

Oh yay... running mates!

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:40 PM | Report abuse

McCain is using guilt by association. Classic but not Rogerian: Rogers says we should meet the opponent in a horizontal gesture and acknowledge the humanity of the other.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:41 PM | Report abuse

I wonder what makes Obama so cool, or if it's just in the genes. It took me two failed marriages to realize that someone has to be the grown up and it might as well be me.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

Oh good.. Joe Biden is Joe Six-Pack.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

[Plus, Biden has been long known as one of the heaviest-hung white dudes in Scranton!]

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

I'm a titch disappointed that Senator Obama just said "workin'" and "strugglin'"

The Sarah Palin curse is upon everyone's head now.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

Both men have smoothier eyebrows.....would botox be in the building?

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, that was silly and inappropriate.

(Head hung in shame)

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Jumper... that's hilarious. Can you imagine if Obama accused McCain of knowing Tennessee Williams?

Wow... the women's line plummeted when Palin's name came up.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Wow - apparently women do not think much of Palin.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Palin isn't going to come out well v. Biden.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 15, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

"A brash of frothy air?"

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Have to hand it to McCain, he's justifying choosing Saralicious with a straight face.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Wait now McCain's going to refer to most of the US as Lower 48? What anatomical position does that put Arizona in?


Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Sarah has solved the energy problem of the lower 48s. A frikking big pipe it's going to be.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

Capable politician-damning with faint praise.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 15, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

Yoki, I heard the dropped g also...and Obama said KIDS....I hear the French voices of my nuns Srs. Bernadette and Rosalie and Solange "Kids! that those would be baby goats!"

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

And what a surprise that is, dmd!

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

Hung heavy I presume?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 9:47 PM | Report abuse

Climate control!!!

McC has been good as a repub on climate control...good on Canadian oil!

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:47 PM | Report abuse

Well, I suppose that if we cut health care spending entirely, those who were left would be a hearty crew! And think of the money we'd save.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Speed limits.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Sure, there's a way to turn CO2 into cheap affordable energy. It's called gardening.

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 15, 2008 9:48 PM | Report abuse

45 Nuclear Pants!
Hot-n-Heavy!

Look where you sent my mind Bob S.!

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 9:48 PM | Report abuse

My daughter thought he said "A breast of fresh air."

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Yea Canadian oil is OK, surprisingly strong positive reaction to clean coal technology. Perhaps the uncommitted viewers should have read the boodle today.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

Climate change these days is nearly ALWAYS eclipsed by energy independence...sigh

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

SciTim is right...nurturing photosynthesis and some carbon sinking along the way....as RD would say. Poo Powered

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:50 PM | Report abuse

A guest asked me who was winning the debate and I told him the Detroit Redwings, I think he is still laughing....

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 15, 2008 9:50 PM | Report abuse

Such bold-faced, brazen lies,as my sainted mither used to say. (from Sen. McLying).

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

Drill baby drill, come on say it, you know you want to John.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

Obama is much grayer than I realized.

Lewis=Black
Ayers=Terrorist

That is pretty evil equivalence McCain is trying to press.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 9:52 PM | Report abuse

and species death eclipsed by climate change

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 9:52 PM | Report abuse

The CNN "uncommitted" voters with the dialers just plain do not like McCain's attacks.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:53 PM | Report abuse

Poo Power to the people

TBG, see, we mine the boodle for nerdisms

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:53 PM | Report abuse

Well, technically, if we started taxing cocaine, we could probably even up THAT equation right quick!

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:53 PM | Report abuse

YJ, tis the slightly longer hair...adds gravitas, which is politician rockstarness

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

I'm sorry to say it, but frankly you'all don't have enough reserves and provable reserves, and probable reserves, to become truly energy independent. It just can't happen unless you impose with fines dsm. And that is just not going to happen.

And neither do (will, think) us Canadians.

So think about riding bikes (like CP) to get between work and home, both ways, uphill one way. In pajamas, in a snowstorm.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

Loved your 9:42 frostbitten. Can so relate. I'm still in Lafayett Indiana on business but watching the debate. Pretty good debate...glad they were forced to be so close together.

TBG...the best is yet to come...take it from me.

Posted by: eidrib | October 15, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

Obama doesn't like death squads.
That'll make a nice change.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

The auto industry is getting hammered. Heh.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

McCain pivots with all the grace of a drunken cow.

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 9:56 PM | Report abuse

Frosti, Obama is beautiful but he is also thoughtful and courtly and reasoned....swoonable. Where are the smelling salts...

HOOVER!!!!!!! Vacuums fire up

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:56 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, eidrib... you're my role model right now!

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:57 PM | Report abuse

Yoki - Aahhh, but you're stuck on one sector (albeit a handy one!) of the energy buffet.

Dead dinosaurs are handy, but aren't, in fact, the only game in town. It's just the cheapest game at the moment.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 9:57 PM | Report abuse

Women and men are going off the charts on Obama's healthcare plan.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 9:58 PM | Report abuse

Obama=Hoover ? McCain is getting me confused over the free drug trading agreement with Columbia. But I don't buy it.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 9:58 PM | Report abuse

Health care, could become my single issue vote rule. That is what scares me about the economy now......health crap can drag you into poverty, so much that dying is cheaper

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 9:59 PM | Report abuse

*laughing at greenwithenvy's contribution*

Hockey is life, isn't it?

I'm out. Sorry, sorry. You'all are an admirable democracy, nearly perfect. But I must say that Senator Obama looks pretty good to me (as he would, wouldn't he?).

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 9:59 PM | Report abuse

"Joe. Joe the Plumber, my friend..."

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 15, 2008 10:00 PM | Report abuse

GNite, Yoki. Keep us apprised of the tar sands bounty. I can bike in MD snow but Alberta snow! Oh My.

Joe! He is talking to us, and the plumber.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

"Senator, I knew Herbert Hoover. I worked with Herbert Hoover, and you, sir, are no Herbert Hoover."

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

I think Joe the Plumber has outlived his usefulness - women approval just tanked when McCain mentioned him.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

Simply can't stand it anymore. My TV is in the other room (i.e., a room other than my computer), so I can't boodle simultaneously with watching the "debate." Which is, of course, okay with me. It's 10 pm now, and I figure that if I can chat with you guys, the world will be better off for it.

Obama is very, very cool (in all senses of that word). McCain strikes me as being jealous -- jealous of this upstart who is taking away his entitlement. McCain's description of Palin was really awful to these ears. No wonder the women wired at CNN made their feelings known about Palin so dramatically.

Ugh.

When can I vote????

Posted by: firsttimeblogger | October 15, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

You would think someone with McCain's self proclaimed command potential could control his smirks and strange looks.

That CNN meter reader is addictive.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 10:01 PM | Report abuse

Bob S, we agree! I'm the first person to say that we need to commercialize alt tech. I just don't think that society is up wid' dat.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, I started listening seriously for a few minutes. But I snapped out of it 'cos McCain brought up Joe the Plumber again. What!?!

Photosynthesis song for SciTim:

http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/Songs/photo.shtml

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

OK Boodle, help me out. (I haven't been paying attention to the boodle response but have been watching the debate.)

According to this, http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pecss_diagram.html

70% of petroleum energy production goes into transportation which I assume here means, trains, planes, and automobiles. How does wind energy, solar, or anything else help us to reduce our oil consumption drastically? Are they assuming we'll all have electric cars (in 4-10 years?)? What about planes? This has always slightly bothered me about the energy discussion. I understand renewable sources replacing coal (or nuclear) but how do they replace oil?

Posted by: astromom | October 15, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

Obama did well in the energy policy competition.

They're talking about Health Care, and suddenly there's Joe the plumber again.
Who *is* this guy?

Oh, Obama's picking up the Joe theme.
McCain looks surprised.
Is it me, or can I really hear the gears turning in Sen. McCain's head from here?

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

I haven't noticed McC mentioning "my friends" tonight. Have you?

Boy, am I sick of Joe the Bloody Plumber.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

I wish I was Joe and could even contemplate buying a business!! Enough with Joe!

McCain's healthcare plan stinks, let's move on.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 15, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

I swear! WE NEED HEALTH INSURANCE. Joe, too. My goodness gracious.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

gwe -- you know, yes you *know* (pretending italics) that my heart is with my beloved Detroit Red Wings -- man, you got me with that one. . .

Posted by: firsttimeblogger | October 15, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

McCain is tanking. I wish Obama could bring up how McCain has never spent a day without his head in the federal trough when it comes to health care-'cause then it would open the door to those 5 years his health care "wasn't so good." (His own fault Mr. F #2 used to say, who flew in Vietnam as a 19 year old warrant officer.)

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 10:06 PM | Report abuse

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22886841#22886841

live feed.
Got electric trains where I live now.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 10:07 PM | Report abuse

Wow, McCain was spluttering after Obama's analysis of why the Columbia free trade agreement is a bad deal right now.

Apparently McCain thinks Hugo Chavez is the president of Peru, he said Obama would want to speak across the table to Hugo Chavez, calling him a terrorist.

I suppose with a more forceful delivery it'd have sounded devasting.

Still, when a terrorist is in charge of a national government and operating in a clearly anti-democratic manner, I think the word is "dictator," which trumps all other labels of evil.

Obama has called Chavez a "dangerous demogogue."

From a right-leaning site:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/05/obama_obfuscates_on_chavez_far.html

From Snopes on Obama-Chavez connexions:

http://snopes.com/politics/obama/chavez.asp


Posted by: Wilbrod | October 15, 2008 10:07 PM | Report abuse

Oooohhhh.... I want to see how McCain explains he wants government off your backs... except for decisions about abortion. I've never understood that position.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:07 PM | Report abuse

If you're not a plumber, what McCain has to offer to you?

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 10:07 PM | Report abuse

Yes, that's it, that's the word I was looking for...Swoonable.

What else can explain this fluttering in my breast everytime Obama says "my health care plan"?

Pass the smelling salts please.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Actually, plumbers make (&%*^ worth of money -- they aren't poor! During the summer, approximately 5 minutes of a plumber's precious time cost me $160.

And it's not really health insurance we need so much as health care itself. I have health insurance, but I typically self-insure (i.e., act as if I don't have it at all), since my deductible is $3500/year. That keeps my premiums low. And, apart from the arthritic knee, I'm healthy as can be. What I do every month by sending in the premium is keep the insurance company CEO in his Porsche.

GO OBAMA!

Posted by: firsttimeblogger | October 15, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

McCain is a strict constructionist but not a litmus tester. I believe him; he is really a Federalist. No surprise.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

McC is a Federalist? I thought that they were for a strong federal gov't and that trumped state gov't.

Don't make me go back and read the history texts again!!

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

Bob should ask McCain if he has a litmus test for McCain-Feingold. Cause strict constructionists have been tossing out McCain-Feingold when given the chance.

Posted by: astromom | October 15, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

McCain says no litmus test? Where's the code that let's the base know he doesn't mean it. Was it that nose rub or the smirk?

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

Now we're talking about pH and litmus tests.
I'll take mine between 7-8 , thanks.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:10 PM | Report abuse

McCain just said that Obama voted against Justice Breyer and Justice Roberts (presumably, he means in their nomination to the court).

Umm, wasn't Breyer on the court a looooong time before Obama was in the Senate?

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 15, 2008 10:10 PM | Report abuse

Obama's discussion here is a bit wanderey, but I am glad that he reminds that the Supreme Court is bigger than Roe v, Wade

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:11 PM | Report abuse

It is much the way Ralph Klein talked about "Martha and George." Only he didn't have any respect for Martha or George.

I'm lost in admiration for Barack Obama, when he makes fine distinctions between then and now, respect for woman's self-hood.

If a woman is out there being treated unfairly, then the Supreme Court should...

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 10:11 PM | Report abuse

McCain wants everybody to have crappy health care, unless they don't want any at all.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 10:12 PM | Report abuse

Sigh. Partial birth abortion is among the saddest things before us...

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:13 PM | Report abuse

McCain doesn't do raised eyebrows very well.

He looked like a squirrel just bit him in the crotch.

The scary thing is that he smiled afterward.

Posted by: martooni | October 15, 2008 10:14 PM | Report abuse

Women and men LOVE Obama's talking about sex ed. Off the charts for both.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:15 PM | Report abuse

Electric trains are not as common in the U.S. as they should be, but they could become more common. This is an area in which federal seed money could help a lot. Plug-in hybrids are in the near future (with expensive retro-fits already here). Electric power can be used to produce high energy-density fuels -- e.g., catalytic conversion of biomass to ethanol, production of hydrogen.

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 15, 2008 10:15 PM | Report abuse

Really, whomever gets elected has a incredibly tough job ahead. I can't get catty about either one since both are credible...but Obama has an edge as far as an eloquent speaker.

Posted by: eidrib | October 15, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

CP, I believe that we have entirely different views re: choice, but I also believe you are an amazingly fine woman who stands up for feminism. Are we OK?

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

...yes, the common ground about abortion is the only frontier....sexuality is sacred. Go Obama on that. Nice to hear a dem speak thusly.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

Has "eloquence" always been used as a simile for "dissimulation"?

I don't think that I was aware of that code.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

Being conerned for the 'health' of women is an extremist position?

Oh! A science question.

Posted by: Boko | October 15, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

I am confused, McCain said no litmus test, instead he would pick qualified judges - but that he didn't believe they would meet his qualification criteria if they agreed with Roe v Wade - Isn't that a litmus test.

Fortunately McCain entire comments on the abortion suggest went over very poorly with women - to quote Yoki - No surprise.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

CP, regarding late PT, it's so sad that such a rare procedure gets so much air times. Do you know any doctor who likes it?

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 10:17 PM | Report abuse

Yes, Yoki, we are ok. Feminist and seamless garment life person.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:17 PM | Report abuse

Sneer.."Health of the mother"...Sneer.
I know a transparent ploy when I see one. Those sneaky b!tches are just pretending. I know. I know everything.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:18 PM | Report abuse

No,SD, do not know a doctor. Just a very sad event, and grateful that it is rare.

Twas a technique, by McCain to bring it up. The extreme event makes for poor law.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:20 PM | Report abuse

Just checking in. Love the comments.

Yoki - I know I cop out on the boodle during these things, but even if watching stuff like this didn't make me feel uncomfortable (Hey! Who wants to guess why this might be!) I wouldn't be able to really contribute much. The wife finds keyboard clicking in front of the television really, really annoying.

She has been quite clear on this.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 15, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse

Schools. BTW, universities expect expanded student commuter populations under austerity, UNLESS the economy really tanks.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Other than bizarre notions about reducing teacher qualification requirements, it sounds like they agree about education plans. McCain just seems to be claiming that no money should be spent upon this.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Well, this is the thing, isn't it?

Why should adult women being in control of their own lives need 'counselling' by some man? Are we infantilized? Are we incapbable of making our own decisions? Frankly, no.

And if we had choice, there would be no need for this coded "partial birth abortion." Give me a break. No woman would delay a therapeutic abortion, unless the law demanded it.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

We need to improve education in this country for sure. But I'll be damned if I pay for a new overhead projector. My education platform:
Chalkboards for Every Child. Plus Vouchers for Their Choice of Chalk Color.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:24 PM | Report abuse

Maybe it's just that I'm for Obama, but when McCain talks, he confuses me. I also think he isn't looking at Obama tonight because he'd have to show the bad side of his face.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 15, 2008 10:24 PM | Report abuse

Hey, Obama's up on the redline talking about education.

McCain, not so much.

Having said that, I see McCain's writing with a Sharpie - do you think it's the fact that he can write in large letters, or because of the aroma?

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 10:24 PM | Report abuse

What, McCain thinks Palin's baby has autism?

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 10:25 PM | Report abuse

Well the aroma from the Sharpie - might explain McCain's goofy grins.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

"Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber have been to the school of hard knocks, with autistic children, and they know a little something about vouchers in D.C."

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

DNA Girl... I love your 10:18.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

Frosti, i am caught by that too, about autism.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

Sarah knows a lot about autism? I don't think so. She'll learn about trisomism, given time.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 15, 2008 10:27 PM | Report abuse

Michele Rhee supports vouchers?

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Frosti - McCain has made several references to autism - confused me as well.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

I was thinking the same thing; it seems like McCain is implying that having a Down Syndrome child somehow makes Palin sensitive to the needs of autistic children. It's weird.

Posted by: kbertocci | October 15, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

That's just weird.

Posted by: Jumper | October 15, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

Precisely, CP. I love you.

Posted by: Yoki | October 15, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

BC, missed the Sharpie but his pad is yellow, legal I guess. Obama wrote on white pad. Discuss the color significance.

McCain's closing is calmer than some of his banter.


Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

TBG - I also loved DNA's 10:18. Actual "out loud in an empty room" laughing was involved.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Alternative certification is very needed, but being a former military person does not make you a good teacher. Maybe McCain wants to be a teacher but can't pass the PRAXIS.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Astromom, I think Obama said ENERGY consumption, which means from all sources.

In that regard, 30% energy expenditure to transportation sounds reasonable... until this year when gas prices skyrocketed.

Other energy use:

1) making electricity: from coal (quite dirty), petrol, hydroelectric, gas, wind, solar, nuclear.

If you make electricity manufacture cleaner and cheaper, you certainly can theoretically make transportion cleaner and cheaper via hybrid cars.

That's part of what Obama was talking about Detroit making more energy-efficient cars.

A lot of the energy used in combustion engines is wasted because when the car is stopped or at low speed, the combustion doesn't die down (or it'd have to be reignited). Our gears actually are designed to slow down the motor speed to wheel speed.

Hybrid vehicles help buffer that by basically using that power to repower an battery while at idle, and using the battery to deliver extra power as needed, without having to increase combustion.

In effect, you basically drive off the battery, and use the combustion engine to repower the battery (which does get quickly depleted otherwise).

If the technology is developed enough (by forcing cars to incorporate hybrid technology), then cheap electricity indeed does help.

For instance, many truckers have to idle their trucks overnight just so they can have heat or AC in their cabs to sleep, or to refrigerate their trucks. Being able to run that off the battery and/or plug in in effect cuts down a lot on fuel consumption.

At least this is my understanding; bc no doubt has far more to say on this subject, but I do remember reading that Detroit has already developed demo cars that can get over 100 mpg.

Back to other sources of energy usage:

2) direct heating/cooling-- electricity; heating oil, wood stoves, coal or natural gas. Some homes do solar or geothermal energy.

Back to petroleum: Petroleum is also often used in making plastics and inks that has been partly replaced by corn and soy plastics in recent years.

I'm not a fan of a lot of petrol products because I'm allergic to them; petrol-soy inks in particular. I can't say that moving away from petrol-based manufacturing and transportation would make me cry one whit.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 15, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

McCain is an anti-Federalist according to this website of student flash cards.

http://www.studystack.com/studytable-12046

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Love you. too, Yoki, Really.

And Obama is closing with a bit more energy, which he needs.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:31 PM | Report abuse

You know when he speaks earnestly like this, I remember the John McCain persona from long ago, and it makes me a bit sad and feel sorry for him. Still disagree with his policies, but....sigh.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:31 PM | Report abuse

I might be really wrong about this, but I'll bet that not too long after this election is over, those two guys are gonna really want to work well together, and will manage to do so, no matter how the election turns out. They really do seem to respect each other, once you dig out of the campaign crappiness.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 10:34 PM | Report abuse

Maggie! Checking CPBoys civics book. Modern federalists support states autonomy within a federation. Less power to the union.

BUT, you are rightly contrasting the classic Federalist stance of Madison and his papers vs. the agrarian (elite) populist views of Jefferson.


Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:34 PM | Report abuse

CP,
What are your thoughts of the dresses? Deconstruction please.

Posted by: M O'D | October 15, 2008 10:36 PM | Report abuse

Bill Bennett is an a$$hat.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:36 PM | Report abuse

MOD I MISSED THEM. Ran out to take out doggie. Will look at film and report ....sheesh...but I suppose some of our lurkers will be spared some inanity! TILL THEN.

Frosti? Others on the ladygarb

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:39 PM | Report abuse

CP,
You're right of course. I forgot about the hyperconservative lawyers group, The Federalist Society, or whatever their name is.

You know, Mudge and I were there in Philadelphia, taking notes from the peanut gallery.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

The presidental debates this year haven't really produced a lot of quotable material.

Obama's "We can disagree without being disagreeable" may have to be THE default quote of this debate season.


Posted by: Wilbrod | October 15, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

Y'all are awesome. Thanks so much. I just got in and decided it was more profitable to catch up on the Live Boodle Debate Comment than try and jump into the thing itself. Like RD, I have trouble watching it anyway, and this really encapsulated it well, I think.

I'm sure other onlookers will agree that you served up some nice substantive comments along with the inanity of which we are so fond. And thanks for the pictures, college parkian and others - it helped me to see them as well as get an idea for what is said.

I get the sense that the CNN dialers were somewhat hypnotic, and that they don't like personal attacks. Interesting.

So, overall opinion from you watchers: did McCain try to go after Obama the way some said he should? Did it work (I didn't get that impression)? Did he try to some forward-moving and presidential, talking about his own plans, the way some said he should? Did it work? Did he try to talk about his experience and record as some said he should, and did it work? And if he did all this stuff, how many McCains were up there anyways?

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

Mr. F called the moment the candidates stopped talking so I missed the dresses. Out of the corner of my eye, Cindy still has the porn star hair. Her dress was very red.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

I liked Obama's dress better. Showed his figure. I'm not a pecs man, but I likes me the smooth curve of the waist down to the hip, over the glutei. What a tush.

Um. Wait. What are we talking about?

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 15, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

SCC: " you certainly can theoretically make transportion cleaner and cheaper...?"

Sorry, Obamaslang is contigious. He does like his adverbs, which is good to see in this day and age.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 15, 2008 10:44 PM | Report abuse

SciTim,
I thought it was waaay too tight! Especially over the tuchus.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 15, 2008 10:45 PM | Report abuse

Who does CNN poll directly after the debates? They can't call anyone in the east because it's way too late. How does that affect their results?

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:45 PM | Report abuse

Many thanks to all for the informative live boodling. I glanced at fivethirtyeight.com and the comments there were similar. At least this part of the campaign is over.

We got an automated call inviting us to a McCain victory...at that point, I hung up. McCain and Palin are coming to NC, working to keep us in the red column.

Posted by: slyness | October 15, 2008 10:46 PM | Report abuse

Michelle had on a blue dress very simple - with a large necklace.

Ivansmom I thought McCain started strong and did very well in the opening segment (economy) but then seems to struggle.

Obama was cool and composed - while I enjoyed his so called "professorial" demeanor not sure how broad a appeal that will have.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:46 PM | Report abuse

Mr. F is in Atlanta for a conference of others in his position from around the country. Consensus among all these military men/women of advanced rank and time in service is that Obama will be our next president. Truly professional, none indicated whether it was his/her personal preference, just treating an Obama presidency as a soon to be fact.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 10:47 PM | Report abuse

Fivethirtyeight.com reports...

"10:45 EDT: [Sean] Looks like the Luntz group went Obama. Greta van Sustererereren crestfallen. We'll get the official numbers momentarily."

Nice to know they watch Fox so we don't have to.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:48 PM | Report abuse

You know, one thing that I found remarkable in their closing statements was that McCain talked about himself, while Obama talked about the country. I think that is one of the distinctions between them, and one that favors Obama. Not that I'm, um, biased or anything.

Posted by: firsttimeblogger | October 15, 2008 10:50 PM | Report abuse

DMD, I agree but somehow we have been much more tolerant about the professor style....tends to not play well in the US.

But we can point to this:: its the economy stupid. Throw out whatever bums stood watch, despite the complexity.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 10:50 PM | Report abuse

David Brooks-just admitted Palin may not just be a non-factor but a negative. Yah, think?

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 10:51 PM | Report abuse

ftb... that's a very good point. And I think why viewers seem to favor Obama in the debates (and apparently in general).

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:52 PM | Report abuse

CP I so would have loved having Obama as a Law Professor, (Undergrad Law) - if of course I had studied US not Canadian law.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:53 PM | Report abuse

Here's a little view of the ladies' dresses...

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/POLITICS/10/15/presidential.debate/t1land.2248.families.gi.jpg

Is that really orange?

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 10:54 PM | Report abuse

Before I forget, thanks for the heads up on State by State, Kbertocci.

And for you, TBG:
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=425

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:54 PM | Report abuse

Not exactly the best picture of the McCain's, (nice Jazz hands).

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 10:56 PM | Report abuse

I think "negative" is quite positive compared to "cancer", which was Brooks' description of her a few days ago.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 10:57 PM | Report abuse

I meant to say HI to everyone. Been so busy with the new job. Plus, I am tired of the election...not to mention the ugly economy. It's all so negative.

I liked all the pics from the boodlefest (good job scottynuke) but do wish Joel smiled just a little. He looked constrained.

It's raining here in so, so flat Indiana. But very nice folks...refreshing. The Great Plains.

Next stop, next week...San Diego. I am enjoying the change. I love to travel. New people, different places.

Posted by: eidrib | October 15, 2008 10:58 PM | Report abuse

I'd call it red-orange, TBG.

On a brunette it'd evoke the smoldering sexiness of autumn, but on a tall blonde, it's just screaming and pulls the eye off her face.

That and it wasn't a great choice to wear against royal blue curtains, either.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 15, 2008 10:59 PM | Report abuse

DNA Girl - I was just remembering that very remark myself!! It is a bit of an improvement, isn't it?

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 10:59 PM | Report abuse

Guess my peripheral vision is not what it once was. Could have sworn Cindy wore her hair down tonight. The dress looked more red on my tv than it does on the 'puter. Michelle always looks so comfortable.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

The projector came up again!
Where was, my friends?
Ha! Joe the Plumber for prez.

Main news of the day:
I saw Melvin Koznowsky crossing the street.

Posted by: Brag | October 15, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

Thanks again, y'all. I checked out fivethirtyeight too, just for fun, but now it is bedtime for me. Buenos gnocchis, vaya con queso and fondue.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 15, 2008 11:01 PM | Report abuse

Well, the nice thing about "so, so flat" places is that the floods can only get so high. On the other hand, it can take a while to get rid of them.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 15, 2008 11:01 PM | Report abuse

Thanks DNA Girl. It's those banana burritos that put me over the top.

:-)

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:02 PM | Report abuse

Jon Stewart says liberal Canada's Conservative Party is the equivalent of the US Gay Nader Fans for Peace party.

We kid because we love.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

Jon Stewart just said the American equivalent of the Canadian Conservative party is "gay Nader fans for peace." The requisite joke about Dion's accent just made the Daily Show coverage of the election about twice as long as any other US TV reports.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

Soledad O'Brien is hot but I couldn't stand to watch her playing kindergarten teacher to a group of undecideds.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

Good night Boodle. Time for my practice of energetic, creative sleep. :o)

Posted by: Brag | October 15, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

From fivethirtyeight.com...

11:04 EDT: [Nate] MediaCurves independent voters: Obama 60, McCain 30.

11:02 EDT: [Nate] CNN poll from the tee-vee: Obama 58, McCain 31.

11:00 EDT: [Nate] CBS undecideds: Obama 53, McCain 22.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:05 PM | Report abuse

WIlbrod, ScienceTim, any others - thanks for the comments.

I guess my question is about the claim both made about getting rid of our dependence on middle eastern oil (and from other countries that don't like us). OPEC oil accounts for nearly 50% of our imported oil and if most oil is used for transportation, and that mainly means autos, we have to reduce our oil consumption by 50%. I just don't think that's reasonable in 4 years and maybe not even in 10. Yes there are some 100 mpg cars in demo mode, but they're not going to be widespread in 4 years, maybe not even 10. There doesn't seem to be enough oil in our reserves to make it up no matter how much McCain wants to drill.

It's an important issue and definitely a good goal, but I don't see how other energy sources (wind, solar, etc.) can really be used to replace combustion engines. At least not without a major technology shift.

Posted by: astromom | October 15, 2008 11:06 PM | Report abuse

Jinx!

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:06 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod, nice to see you back, and a quick comment to my take on Obama's criticism of the auto manufacturers' not making inexpensive fuel-efficient cars.

I believe the truth is, they actually did. The problem as I see it is that by and large, Americans weren't interested in buying them. I know, I bought a few.

Unfortunately, the profit margins for larger, more powerful vehicles is impossible to ignore for shareholder-owned corporations. Without significant incentive beyond meeting minimal Corporate Average Fuel Ecomomy (CAFE) standards, they wouldn't have been built at all, I don't think.

If Americans had been buying and driving large numbers of the 32+ MPG low-emission small cars - domestic or foreign - that have been out there all along ... I don't know how different things would be now.

As far as the newer direct-injection gas and diesel cars, as well as hybrids and electrics, I could get into the technical details of any and all of them (ya wanta hear about regenerative braking systems?), but I don't know how important those are relative to the problem of consumers being able to afford to buy them. If they're not on the road in large numbers, it may be relatively moot point.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 11:06 PM | Report abuse

TBG -- hard to tell the color hue on that red. Cindy is a naturally cool blonde who can wear reds across the spectrum Looks like a soft two piece with some shaping. High collar, which I really, really understand.

Michelle has a medium blue soft dress without purple overtones. She is very comfortable in a dress; her frame -- like Baracks -- is the bones undergirding elegant fabric drape. Sigh. Tall is compelling.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 15, 2008 11:07 PM | Report abuse

One more energy source for your list Bob S.
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2506

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 15, 2008 11:07 PM | Report abuse

Night - loved all the comments.

Posted by: dmd | October 15, 2008 11:08 PM | Report abuse

Good comments, folks. You caught everything I picked up on, from Freddie Mae on. McCain is awful, just awful. Please, I can't stand to listen to him for 4 years. Maybe he needs Joe the Plumber to remodel a bathroom somewhere. As usual, I was knitting furiously to keep myself from screaming at the TV. Why does McCain get to drone on and interrupt and lie, lie, lie.

Zero fines, Sen McCain. Zero, zilch, nada. Been fact checked - you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 15, 2008 11:08 PM | Report abuse

TBG-Do I owe you a coke? Or should I wait until a BPH and punch you in the arm when I see a VW bug?

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 11:09 PM | Report abuse

Dowd quoted Brooks as saying this about Palin's future chances in the party:

“She has reinforced the worst of talk-radio culture. The party will need a leader to strike out in a new direction, a fiscally conservative president more like a high-tech Teddy Roosevelt. Someone with gravitas.”

And remember that Kristol is Palin's biggest cheerleader.

Posted by: Mo MoDo | October 15, 2008 11:11 PM | Report abuse

Loved all the comments. I'll probably reread them tomorrow when I'm a little more awake.

McCain bothered my tonight, although that just could be my predisposition. But I found him a little smirky.

Night all.

Posted by: astromom | October 15, 2008 11:11 PM | Report abuse

frosti... Punch buggy!

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:13 PM | Report abuse

TBG, Kathleen Hall Jamieson was on Bill Moyers a couple of weeks ago - she hates the CNN meters, and the polls immediately afterwards - because of the observer effect. She thinks we should boodle about the debate among ourselves (well, she probably used the water cooler analogy), and then decide, rationally.

I hate McCain and his sneering ways. Women and their "health" excuse - grrr. That's what I've decided - I hates him.

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 15, 2008 11:14 PM | Report abuse

Toodles boodle and fondue.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 11:14 PM | Report abuse

Energy independence is a chimera. Oil is fungible. Doesn't matter where it comes from.

And at the end of every electric train or car is a cord leading to a power plant.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 15, 2008 11:15 PM | Report abuse

TBG- you forgot no punches back.

Now I really am going.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 15, 2008 11:17 PM | Report abuse

I was just reacting, frosti. Stop rubbing your arm.

G'night.

Posted by: TBG | October 15, 2008 11:20 PM | Report abuse

What about nucular powered cars? McCain always brings up nucular submarines and how safe they are.

Algae, think algae.

bc, seems like Toyota has done pretty well with the Prius. I don't think American car companies tried very hard to go fuel efficient. SUV's were much higher profit, short-term. Pearlstein said the other day he thinks all the Big 3 could be bankrupt in a year.

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 15, 2008 11:24 PM | Report abuse

Just want to say the Joe the plumber reference was full of cracks. :-)

Posted by: eidrib | October 15, 2008 11:29 PM | Report abuse

One other thing re. the debate.

I watched the CNN split screen, and can see why Obama's comfortable with the idea of sitting at a table with leaders of foreign countries, pro-American or not.

He's cool, controlled, and does not let on what he's thinking. An excellent negotiator, I should think.

McCain -- I want to play poker with that guy. He's got a serious case of tellface.

I don't think I'd want him representing *me* at an important negotiation. Especially if security, weapons - conventional or otherwise - or large sums of money are involved.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 15, 2008 11:29 PM | Report abuse

Also, I'm on EST! But these 2 hour time changes take a while to recover from.

Posted by: eidrib | October 15, 2008 11:31 PM | Report abuse

bc, have to agree with you.

Posted by: eidrib | October 15, 2008 11:32 PM | Report abuse

Bob S, I'd rather suffer floods than droughts as long as I'm not living below sea level or in a flood zone or living in Galveston.

Posted by: eidrib | October 15, 2008 11:35 PM | Report abuse

I hope I got the gist of it right.

I know my meter and rhyme is off, but after all it is a translate.

I notice all lines but third have nine syllables, third with twelve.

Don't know Spanish well enough (OK hardly at all) to read the meter.

Waiting...

Posted by: omni | October 15, 2008 11:37 PM | Report abuse

edrib, see my thread on Joe the plumber above... (ahem)

mostlylurking, the Prius is fine, but rather expensive for a small car.

There are 35+ mpg gasoline cars out there that are available for significantly less money (approaching half of the MSRP). And don't get me started on clean diesels...

As far as the big 3 (what's left of them, anyway) go, I spoke to some execs a few years back and suggested that it would be a good time to develop premium small cars - fuel-efficient low-emissions cars with engineering and development equivalent to expensive models. I described cars with style and equipment beyond the typical econoboxes, so that people would start buying them *before* gasoline hit $4 a gallon, and said manufacturers would have a nice customer base for repeat sales later as gas prices climbed and large fuel-slurping SUVs fell out of favor.

They smiled and told me that it was a good idea, but that they thought crossover SUVs and retro muscle cars would be the next big things, not premium fuel-efficent compact cars.

Oh well.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 16, 2008 12:00 AM | Report abuse

DNA Girl - I'll concede that I had forgotten that one!

Posted by: Bob S. | October 16, 2008 12:06 AM | Report abuse

As I mentioned the other night, I'm actually trying to think deeply about health care lately, but one of my other interests is energy, so I'll drag this horse out again...

bc's right, there have been 40+ MPG cars available for decades. There are motorcycles/motorbikes available (and have been for decades) that get upwards of 100 MPG. If moving around cheaply was what we valued, the streets would full of small underpowered vehicles carrying few passengers, and large vehicles carrying many passengers. That's not what we see because that's not what we value.

Maybe when gas hits $10-15 per gallon.

Sigh...

Posted by: Bob S. | October 16, 2008 12:13 AM | Report abuse

... the streets "would" be full of ...

Posted by: Bob S. | October 16, 2008 12:17 AM | Report abuse

Pete Potzrebie?

Posted by: Jumper | October 16, 2008 12:24 AM | Report abuse

Atheists like nookie too.

Posted by: Boko | October 16, 2008 12:36 AM | Report abuse

So true, so true, Boko.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 16, 2008 12:38 AM | Report abuse

http://www.aptera.com/

Check this baby out.

Posted by: Jumper | October 16, 2008 12:38 AM | Report abuse

What I was trying to say about cars was that Detroit should have followed bc's advice. If they had shown some imagination, figured out how to entice people with cool, fuel efficient cars, they might be in a much better position now. Instead, Toyota did that - the Prius does very well here, despite being expensive for a small car and not even all that fuel efficient. I guess that's why the executives get paid millions, to make those decisions. Sorry, now I'm going all class warfare on you. The debate got me all riled up.

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 16, 2008 12:47 AM | Report abuse

I stayed on PBS. Loved Charlie Rose & guests, and thought that Tavis Smiley put together a fascinating panel. Sandy Banks from the L.A. Times seemed to be uninterested in having any fun with intellectual play. Oh, well. Every party needs a pooper. And Ben Stein was in & out of aggrieved religious conservative mode, which (to me) is alternately amusing & painful to watch.

Posted by: Bob S. | October 16, 2008 1:02 AM | Report abuse

thanks, everyone, for the commentary.

i caught parts of the debate but missed most of joe the plummer. i'm sure snl will work him into their version of the debate, which i look forward to. political satire is the only thing that keeps me sane these days.

g'night

Posted by: L.A. lurker | October 16, 2008 1:02 AM | Report abuse

I forgot to post this a while ago:
http://www.damninteresting.com/
"damming the mediterranean"

Posted by: Jumper | October 16, 2008 1:11 AM | Report abuse

eidrib, we tried to get Joel to eat more fiber at the MBPH, really we did...

Oh, wait... :-)

*off-to-a-particularly-long-workday-but-always-happy-to-see-Boodlers-doing-debate-dissection Grover waves* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 16, 2008 5:05 AM | Report abuse

God loves us so much more than we can imagine through Him that died for all, Jesus Christ.

Morning, friends. TBG, check your email. I did not watch the debate. I enjoyed reading some of the comments, didn't get through them all. I have a lot of back reading to do.

I'm feeling really depressed this morning. The police went to the home of a young man to remove him from the home because he had lost it. He asked if he could packs his clothes, and they allowed him this. While in the bedroom the young man decided life wasn't worth living, and took his life. I worked with his young daughter this summer in the fun program. His only child. I went to see her last night after Bible study, but she wasn't at home. I told the family I would come back. The little girl left the program because she said no one liked her.

I know I will not have words to say to this child, but I can hug her tight. And pray.

I talk to my grandsons last night and their mom. They're doing okay. I was glad to hear their voices. I've tried contacting them for the past two days, and couldn't get them, finally had success last night.

As for the debate, here we can start voting today. I'm so ready. I'm just glad this thing is winding down.

The g-girl got her report card yesterday, and it was good. The grandsons haven't got theirs yet.

Scotty, Mudge, Slyness, Martooni, and good morning to you.*waving*

Have a great day, folks. The weather here is still warm, but we're looking for a significant change come tomorrow. Cool temps.

Time to swim.

Posted by: cassandra s | October 16, 2008 6:40 AM | Report abuse

"and good morning to all.*waving*"

Posted by: cassandra s | October 16, 2008 6:43 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, everybody!

Cassandra, that is such a sad story. I'm sorry to hear it, and hope you can comfort the little girl.

I hope today is more quiet than yesterday. Why do people always wait till the last minute to do things? I processed 32 registrations for the fire station conference and dealt with all the problems people were having. Today the price goes up, so everyone was trying to get in. The good news is that we have passed the number of people who came last year, with 2 and a half weeks to go before the conference. We've also oversold the exhibitor space, so the exhibitor manager has work to do.

Today, I work on my presentation. I don't think I'll be making many changes from last year. Siting fire stations isn't rocket science, even English majors can figure it out.

Posted by: slyness | October 16, 2008 7:12 AM | Report abuse

Fire station near water = good
Station away from water = bad

How'd I do, slyness? :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 16, 2008 7:41 AM | Report abuse

Cassandra - that is such a tragic tale. My best wishes for this young girl.

I read through the debate transcript this morning, and one of the things that really struck me as being weird was the mention of autism. (I know this was briefly discussed in the Boodle.) Palin's child has Down's syndrome, not autism. As anyone with a passing acquaintance of special needs children knows, the two present in radically different ways. Besides, Trig is what, 5 months old? Governor Palin hasn't begin to encounter the real challenges of special-needs parenting. This mention of autism just seemed out of place and vaguely pandering.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 16, 2008 8:11 AM | Report abuse

Wow. Check out this "McAngry" clip. I am amazed at how quickly stuff like this shows up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGzfYOp34d8

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 16, 2008 8:12 AM | Report abuse

cassandra, I'm sure your reaching out will help the girl. *HUGSSSS*

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 16, 2008 8:20 AM | Report abuse

Good morninckzz, Boodle!

Cassandra--That's a tragic story. A case where to the victim, it seems the whole world has turned against him.

Posted by: Brag | October 16, 2008 8:42 AM | Report abuse

My 1990 Geo Prizm did 40 mpg on its odyssey from Portland, Ore. to Florida back in early 2000. My brother now owns the little hatchback, which is running well.

My current car, a considerably more powerful Ford Focus, is more in the 25 mpg range.

I think I recall reading a profile of Obama that said he's good at poker. A bit of Googling found:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-campaign30sep30,0,6036479.story

How did we ever find information before search engines?

Cassandra, that's a terribly sad story.

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 16, 2008 8:45 AM | Report abuse

Dave, we didn't find all that info before. That's what makes the interwebs and search engines such important agents of change.
:-)

My 2006 RAV4 with the 240 horsepower engine averaged 31 miles per gallon on my trip to DC two weeks ago. It's amazing what will happen when you use cruise control and stay at the speed limit. That's 3.5-4 mpg better than I've done before. I average 22-23 in the city. I'm happy.

Posted by: slyness | October 16, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, all.

Cassandra, that is a terribly tragic tale. I appreciate your sharing it with us. As badly as folks feel, and as they feel that life is turning against them, they are fortunate to have you there. Thank you for that.

Glad to head about the good news on the acedemic front, too.

I noticed McCain's mixup of autism and Downs' syndrome as well, but frankly, I'm not a good person to discuss it relative to folks who have significant firsthand experience with special needs children and adults.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 16, 2008 9:03 AM | Report abuse

In the market for a new overhead projector?
http://shop.adlerplanetarium.org/catalog/display.php?product_id=983

Posted by: Boko | October 16, 2008 9:04 AM | Report abuse

Wow Cassandra. We are hearing more stories like yours coming from every direction, but you lived that one personally (and probably will keep us up on what happens... please)...

Best wishes.

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 16, 2008 9:11 AM | Report abuse

I have to say that I have rarely heard anything more ignorant than McCain's contention that we could JUST BUY petroleum from countries that McCain didn't like.

Wow, again.

Talk about being a bit underpowered on the economics of the whole thing. I guess, borrowing money from China to buy imported petroleum "isn't a problem."

I guess I need to go back to Father Guido Sarducci's 20 Minute University because this doesn't seem to jive with my Econ degree.

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 16, 2008 9:15 AM | Report abuse

New Kit - Joel has a new profession - Plumbing!

Posted by: dmd | October 16, 2008 9:18 AM | Report abuse

Must say about the plumber business (full disclosure: have long-term plumber friend who is a Joe, and, Frosti might notice a McQuillan plumbing van or two in St.Paul lie gals)/Minnie-apples. Them McQui-peeps would be mine and as it happens, F.S. Fitzgerald's too. BTW, he made loads of fun of them but lived off money that the fellas made.)

Here is the deal: I expect to pay an artisan or craftworker what he or she asks. After all, 'tis the living of the person. Just as I expect to make a living, so too does, well, just about darn new everybody.

And, I cannot do these specialized jobs: electrical, plumbing, carpentry worth anything. It is worth what it is. How different, really, is working with the mind and working with the body, when the does settles. 'Tis value added. Dignity in all of it, even if the mind-work looks classier in some way. By class, insert another discussion about elitism.....

I bless my stars that I grew up in a family that saw little difference between the farmworker, the plumber, the teacher, the lawyer, the doctor, the mortician/ice cream parlor bizman in my town (Yesssir, same family!).

And, my goodness, quit with the bottom jokes (that are fast and furious on the telephone lines these days!). The real cracks these days are in the classroom. On Friday, I shall take a count of the low-rise pants on the ladies (and one or two playa-faux laddies). It is a celebritity-debut-ante crack of insousiance these days, not a badge of hard working Janes and Joes.

DONE, with the rant. Doing it because I love. Enjoy the day.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 16, 2008 9:19 AM | Report abuse

Oh Cassandra, that is too to sad for words. I'll say a prayer for a too weary soul and hope for ease and comfort for his family.

Posted by: dr | October 16, 2008 9:27 AM | Report abuse

Interesting!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 21, 2008 2:45 PM | Report abuse

Fascinating!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 21, 2008 2:45 PM | Report abuse

Just as I thought.

Posted by: corones | October 21, 2008 2:52 PM | Report abuse

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