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Someone's Always Gambling

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What we need here are more casinos, clearly. Thus behind New York New York and Monte Carlo you see more giant hotel-casinos rising on the south LV Strip. I never understand how this can pencil out.

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Classic (Classical) Vegas. You look at this and your first thought is that it's crying out for someone to jump over the parking lot on a motorcycle.

Here's my story on cars sales and the "real economy."

By Joel Achenbach  |  October 7, 2008; 8:42 AM ET
 
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Next: Obama vs. McCain Round 2

Comments

Vegas, baby. Joel, you're money.

***turning off Jon Favreau mode***

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 9:42 AM | Report abuse

For fans of ASCII art:

You may have to cut and paste into Courier for the full effect:

.-.
(/^\)
(\ /)
.-'-.
/(_I_)\
\\) (//
/ \
\ | /
\|/
/|\
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/Y\

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 9:44 AM | Report abuse

I've only spent one night in Vegas, but I took tons of pictures:

http://flickr.com/photos/yellojkt/sets/72157594234599623/

Which I turned into a slide show video:

http://livebythefoma.blogspot.com/2006/08/viva-las-vegas_13.html

And Joel, make sure you get downtown for the lighted arcade and the aircraft themed light show:

http://livebythefoma.blogspot.com/2006/10/are-you-experienced.html

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 9:57 AM | Report abuse

I have two giant personal problems that prevent me from ever enjoying Las Vegas:

(1) I have a reasonable understanding of statistics -- especially the concept of 'expectation value.'

(2) I play poker very badly.

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 7, 2008 10:10 AM | Report abuse

yello-getting lonesome yet? The best time I had in Vegas (brief vacation in spring '99) was the Star Trek ride at the Hilton. Frostdottir was 9 and we went on a weekday morning when it was nearly empty. Didn't gamble at all, but it was fun nonetheless. Wondered even then, how that growth could be sustained. Where was the money coming from, and where would the water come from? Looking forward to JA's impressions.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Joel, some of us have already read and commented on your shiny new car article. In my adulthood with VintageSpouce, we have had a red 924 & a red 560SL, gone but not forgotten. Oldest son had a 240Z and a little red midget convertible, back in the day. None of them were new when we bought them, but all were in good shape.

I've been a tagalong to computer conferences in Vegas, very popular place for large conferences. Last time we were there, the residential housing was booming and very affordable.

Very glitz, LV.

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Morning All
Cold here this AM,time to get the house plants indoors and maybe bring in some wood.I always keep a fire set year round and I like to burn one and then sweep the chimney.

I have never been to Vegas,but hopefully sometime in the future.I went to Atlantic City once and considered it a sucessful trip because I only lost $200 clams and I had a good time doing it.

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 7, 2008 10:24 AM | Report abuse

Vegas never attracted me, but I would like to see it. Hmm, figure than one out.

Here is an interesting analysis on the prospects of peace in Afghanistan.

http://atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JJ08Df03.html

Posted by: Brag | October 7, 2008 10:28 AM | Report abuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winged_Victory_of_Samothrace

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:32 AM | Report abuse

The only gambling I did in Nevada was at a convenience store while I was waiting for an oil change (You can't do a lap of the US without at least one) in Reno.

Never gambled a dime in Vegas itself. My one regret is that I was too busy to catch the Star Trek exhibit, which is a little pricey if you don't have nearly a full day for it.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 10:33 AM | Report abuse

Vegas is the tackiest place on earth.

After vowing I'd never go again, Mr. T talked me into a trip with him last June with a promise of a tour to the Grand Canyon. That was good.

Las Vegas itself? Feh.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Spent a night in Vegas, circa 1983 while accompanying a University of Wyoming faculty member on a search for desert wild carrots. The West has loads of these well-rooted plants that typically flower just as the weather's warming up, at least a bit.

Las Cruces had seemed colder than Laramie despite the palms. The University of Arizona had a wondrous student union and bookstore and tacos. Arizona State was a regular city, nice and warm. Central and northern Arizona, gorgeous. Las Vegas seemed terribly out of place. The North Rim of the Grand Canyon was much more satisfying.

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 7, 2008 10:39 AM | Report abuse

The three Magi cometh to visit:
“OTTAWA (The Citizen police blotter) - In what police say was not a random act, three teenagers forced their way into a home in the 1400 block of Baseline Road and robbed the occupants late Monday night. One of the youths was armed with a handgun.
One youth was described as white, aged 18 to 19, 5 feet 10 inches tall. He wore a red baseball cap, white shirt and long capri-style shorts. The second youth was black, aged 14 to 16, with a thin build. The third is described as a 14- to 16-year-old Lebanese youth.
No injuries were reported in the 11:41 p.m. home invasion"

It good to see how the young ones are much less inhibited about race. I'd say interracial crime is the way of the future.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Obama finally tops McCain, but Sarah Paline still remains the center of attention on the boodle.

Here are the name counts since Sep 28:

165 Biden
259 McCain
281 Obama
419 Palin

Posted by: kitchen counter | October 7, 2008 10:40 AM | Report abuse

The only time I've spent in Vegas was one morning about 10 years ago. I was there with a friend to pick up a U-Haul but we spent the morning "gambling". I was going to let myself blow through a $20 on nickel and quarter slots but couldn't even make it through the full $20 before I was bored.

It was fairly depressing to arrive in Vegas at 7am and see all the people still gambling from the night before.

Posted by: astromom | October 7, 2008 10:41 AM | Report abuse

astromom,
When I was in Niagara several years ago, I got up in the morning to tour the town and wandered through the casino. At eight am, there were several tables still going with bleary eyed gamblers.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Thinking of tourism, a travel agent friend, pointing out unbelievably low air fares, practically ordered me to go to London in 1990. I wandered into a musical called "Blood Brothers" on the first groggy night and went on to David Hare, orchestras, a Prokofiev opera that had never been presented in the US and other undreamed-of marvels. Including daffodils. Unbelievable numbers of them.

Next October, I'd spent a day exploring the Modoc lava beds of northern California and ended up in Ashland, Oregon after dark. The hotel clerk reminded me there was Shakespeare up the street. My gosh, it amounted to London come to the middle of nowhere.

Stuff like this, and people can't think of better things to do than [insert your pick of tourist junk]?

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 7, 2008 10:48 AM | Report abuse

Good morning Boodle. Car guys, you will appreciate my sorrow this morning when I heard that the FIA has dropped Montreal from the Grand Prix season next year! No Formula 1 in Montreal? Inconceivable.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 10:55 AM | Report abuse

I went to Las Vegas once for a business conference. I'm glad I saw it. I got out at walked in the early mornings and in the evenings. The pictures make me remember how the air was--kind of the opposite of south Florida air: dry and crisp.

Cars, hm. My parents have always paid cash for their cars, and I continued the tradition even though I've never been as rich as they are. When I was too poor to afford a car, I didn't have one. My first car, purchased when I was 31, cost $400. I loved it, it was a Datsun hatchback. I drove it for about 6 months and sold it for $900. Then I was carless again for about 4 years. Eventually I needed a car because my daughter needed to be taken to activities and I needed to get to and from work quickly in order to take care of her. I bought a Toyota two-door for $350 because that is how much cash I had. That car was a mess--you could see the road through the floorboards, and usually had to jiggle the wires to the battery to make it start. But it got me to work for about a year. When I got my income tax refund that year, I bought an Oldsmobile Firenze for $650. I called it my "Old-mobile." It had its idiocyncrasies, too, including a broken window crank. I used pliers to raise the window and a rubber door stopper to keep it closed. (Hey, it worked.) I got a better job. I saved my money. When I had saved $1500 I bought a Toyota hatchback. Huge improvement from the Firenza. Since then, I have only owned Toyotas, and each one has been a little better than the last. My current ride is a 1996 Toyota two-door with 89,000 miles. It cost $4000 and I admit I used my credit card for about $1000 of that.

That, I would submit, except for the credit card part, is what a REAL "real economy" would look like.

Posted by: kbertocci | October 7, 2008 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Yep Yoki, but I think it has coming for a few years. Bernie tries to negotiate himself a new track at taxpayers' expense (he won't get it). His trick is to have everything paid up by the host country while hoarding most of the revenue sources. He went from mechanic to multi-billionnaire that way. So one has to follow the money. I think the GP will follow the usual path, (see Major League Baseball, Major airport, Film Festival, etc) and go west to Toronto.
They'll need a new track though, I can't think of yet another street circuit in F1 and jamming the Toronto traffic for weeks during the summer in a non-starter.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Shriek, traffic is always jammed in and around Toronto - only the degree of awful changes!

Not sure what if I want it as it is every year my husband likes to pretend he is an Indy driver when the barracades begin to line Lakeshore a few weeks before the race.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Not having a GP in the US also hurts; the GP of Canada has to bear the whole cost of transporting the teams from Europe to North-America. (see previous post about Bernie passing all the costs to host country)

GP of Mexico City maybe?

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Yoki: I felt the same way when they took the F1 date away from Watkins Glen.

Posted by: jack | October 7, 2008 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Here's my unstated conclusion from my previous comment:

When the purveyors of merchandise make more money on the financing of the goods than they do on the actual products, it is in their (short-term) interest to sell people things that they can't afford. To see what that leads to, just look around you.

Posted by: kbertocci | October 7, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Obama tops McCain on the kitchen counter.

Posted by: Giggle | October 7, 2008 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Howdy. I enjoy the pictures,Joel. Sometime I'd like to see Vegas but it has never been a destination for me because I'm not a gambler. I was in a casino once, in Tahoe (or Reno? one of those) and I had three quarters. I put them in the slot machines and thought I was done. My mother gave me another quarter. She said I should at least gamble a full dollar. That done, I went outside. I just lack the fiscal imagination necessary to gamble. If I have a dollar, it is my dollar. If I wager it, I might get several dollars, or I might lose the dollar I have. I very seldom bet on anything.

I would be interested in seeing the country around Las Vegas, and the Hoover dam. I like desert. I'm afraid you'd have to go pretty far - probably California - to escape the light pollution, though.

Thanks to scottynuke for the pictures.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 7, 2008 11:47 AM | Report abuse

kbertocci, I have to disagree with some of your premise. There is nothing wrong with making money off of financing a purchase -- you need or want something NOW, and I am willing to let you have it now. For a price, to recompense me for not being able to sell the item to another customer who has cash now. If the seller has to hold the note on financing your purchase, then it is NOT in his short-term interest to sell you something you can't afford. He doesn't begin to make any money until a good fraction of the loan's lifetime has expired. He makes the maximum amount of money by getting you to pay off the full loan, so it is in his interest to sell you only what he believes you can afford to pay off.

Where priorities begin to go astray is when the originator can sell a loan, so that the original financer gets paid off immediately. He has to sell the loan for less than its total value, so he doesn't make as much money, but he eliminates all risk from defaults. Thus, now he DOES have a short-term interest in selling you anything, preferably at an inflated price, so long as he feels confident that he can find a greater fool to take the loan off his hands.

Just speculating here: one of many what-if scenarios one could envision that might have prevented the present debacle is -- what if a loan originator were required to maintain ownership of a loan for some finite period before he could sell it off? Perhaps for an adjustable rate mortgage, he would have to hold it until a set period after the first rate adjustment. For a fixed-rate, he might have to hold it for one year. Some time period long enough to put the loan originator at significant financial risk from defaults.

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 7, 2008 11:48 AM | Report abuse

testing

Posted by: Brag | October 7, 2008 11:56 AM | Report abuse

There'd always be ways around that, SciTim. Car dealerships could get kickbacks for steering customers to higher-interest loans and so forth.

Posted by: WIlbrod | October 7, 2008 11:57 AM | Report abuse

testing

Posted by: Brag | October 7, 2008 11:58 AM | Report abuse

failing

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 11:58 AM | Report abuse

DNA Guy and I passed through Vegas about a decade ago on a road trip. We walked all night through the strip and neighbourhood. Shiny strip, not so shiny rest of town.

Early in the evening a washroom dispensing machine ate my quarter. I took that as a sign and didn't go within 5 feet of any other slot machines etc.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 7, 2008 11:59 AM | Report abuse

The only kind of gaming I've ever enjoyed were the slot machines from at least 25 years ago. The ones where you dropped in a quarter, pulled a lever and watched the tumblers tumble.

If you won, quarters came pouring out. One of the first times I ever played, I won a hundred dollars... that's quite a noise coming out one quarter at a time! (I also changed it into a $100 bill and stashed it in my pocket; it turned out to cover about half of our honeymoon expenses.)

All in all, a very sensory experience.

Nowadays, you slide a credit card or slip in a dollar bill, push a button and if you win, you get "credits" that you then must print out and take to a window to cash in. If you win 75¢ why bother going to the window?

Just play until you lose it again. No rush of quarters into a big cup, no thrill at all.

Posted by: TBG | October 7, 2008 12:02 PM | Report abuse

I am not a science geek but I can relate to some of the comments in this blog, especially the solo tether ball, my dad put one in our yard and I spent a lot of time playing tether ball.

http://www.globecampus.ca/blogs/nerd-girl/

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 12:03 PM | Report abuse

Looks like the software is blocking the posting of urls

Fresh espionage news posted on my webbie:

freewebs.com/braguine/espionagenews.htm

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 12:04 PM | Report abuse

k,

Beyond Tim's point, the dealerships have to or have pre-ordered a "floor plan" of cars and trucks. They also have to move product to recover cash to make payroll, etc.

End of month deals are for just that purpose. Also, no one says that you have to go to a car company to do financing. Right now, they are one of the only groups who may finance the car, just to get their money out of the inventory item.

In reality, the money maker in a dealership may very well be service, anyway.

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 7, 2008 12:07 PM | Report abuse

okay Joel, here's your big chance... remember to 'keep count'... and don't stretch your hands behind your back... that tricks out! the fake moustache can go a long way, so I understand.

Just visited Toyota this morning for oil & filter change... it was dead in the showroom... no up-sell from the service department... really I do need a tire rotation etc. They said I can leave it until next spring... I couldn't believe my ears! Not the usual enthusiasm for tuning my car.

Posted by: Miss Toronto | October 7, 2008 12:14 PM | Report abuse

But that wouldn't be an effective way around my suggested barricade, WIlbrod -- the car-dealer gets the immediate value, but the loan originator remains stuck with a potentially bad loan for a substantial period of time. The issue is not what is being sold or for how much -- the issue is whether you can get a loan to cover that price. If you can't get the loan because the loan originator fears you will default, then you don't get the thing until the price is lowered enough for you to pay cash or for the loan originator to be willing to risk his funds. The person holding the loan is in for the long haul -- he doesn't begin to turn a profit until the borrower has paid off the cost of the loan, which will take something like 1/3rd or more of the loan's lifetime. If the lender is actually the purchaser of an existing loan, then he has already had to pay someone else, extending the time until his own ownership becomes profitable. To the extent I understand it, the mortgage crisis is happening because lenders were given a mechanism (mortgage-backed securities) to escape risk, selling loans to buyers from whom the real risks were hidden. If lenders had to hold their own loans for a while, they would be exposed to that risk themselves. My hypothesis is that if a borrower is going to default, it will be early in the life of a loan, not late. That means that a lender who has to hold a loan for, say, 1 year, is exposed to most of the risk.

Posted by: ScienceTim | October 7, 2008 12:17 PM | Report abuse

Here's an on-kit idea; re-open the infamous Ceasar's Palace Parking Lot F1 Grand Prix .
With all those races in Bahrein, Turkey, Australia, Singapore etc. the cars (and drivers) are much better in hot temperature. They drivers won't faint and/or see their engines or gearboxes explode from overheating as in the old days...

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 12:21 PM | Report abuse

kbert, here in Ontario the cars you describe would never pass the safety test. The only way you could get them licenced would be to find a venal auto mechanic who'd take cash to sign....

Nevermind.

Posted by: Boko (The Giggler) | October 7, 2008 12:23 PM | Report abuse

I've been to Vegas many times. In high school and for a couple of years beyond I belonged to the Adventure Club in my little desert town. Every year for Memorial Weekend we would take a rafting trip that started south of Hoover Dam to Cottonwood Cove, I think. One night we would camp near some hot springs and mercy, can girls and boys of that age get into mischief at hot springs. Not me, mind you! I can still feel the cold,emerald green water and the sun just beating down on us in rafts, with our bags of gorp and ice chests floating down The River next to us. Anyway, I digress. We always went to Vegas first and had dinner at Circus, Circus and thought we were REALLY glamming it up! We ate like there was no tomorrow because 3 days of camping food for 50 odd folks isn't really that great. We didn't get to stray from Circus Circus. I've been back to Vegas several times as an adult, visiting friends and once for my 20 year high school reunion, which was a whale of a time. But I have never gambled there at all. I'd rather buy a blouse or a new pair of shoes.

Posted by: Kim | October 7, 2008 12:30 PM | Report abuse

But if the lender isn't fully privy to all the up-front information, there is additional risk for the lender anyway.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 12:51 PM | Report abuse

kbert and boko - those cars would never pass the VA safety inspection either - they ding you for a burnt out license plate light for FSM sake!

my last car i bought, i bought brand spankin new! a bright red toyota celica GT. my mother was working at the dealership at the time so i got a total steal - also it was the previous years model and a stick shift... apparently ppl don't like to drive stick shifts anymore - that's the only way to drive! anywho - it's paid off and i'm glad i got a NEW car experience at least once (all the cars i'd ever had before had been used) but i'll prolly buy used in the future if i have to buy another car (I HATE BUYING CARS!) so this car better last me a good long time!

vegas - notsomuch - like many of you - i don't gamble, never really saw the fun in it. in 1991 i was moving to london for 6 months and i decided to fly out of newark so mom and i stopped at atlantic city on the way. me, not being a gambler, dropped two dollars into a slot machine and won $50. i pocketed the money and walked out. my best friend and i went to vegas somewhere around 1998-99. she doesn't gamble either. so we went to a club and ended up talking into the wee hours of the morning at hard rock hotel... vegas was cool to see but i get a little overwhelmed by too much stimuli... most fun i had in vegas was the star trek hilton - they have characters dressed up walking around and they look REALLY good! like the "real" thing, as it were, if, say, there were actually freneghi or klingons on earth... sucky part was that my friend was a vegetarian so i didn't get to experience the prime rib specials!

funny thing i didn't know about the desert is that it is FREEZING at nite... it can get to 90 during the day and 40 at nite... went camping in the desert once... strange experience!

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 12:57 PM | Report abuse

CP, check your mail! I can't speak for LiT's gorgeous strappy sandals, but Talbots now has the silk ones I wore on sale.

Everybody bored yet? :-)

Posted by: dbG | October 7, 2008 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Tim,

Per your comment, the mortgage problem came from the fact that derivative securities were prepared from these loan instruments. These could be bought and sold by traders, but they also became instruments that investment houses were buying on a very leveraged basis.

The problem, I believe, comes from the leveraged purchase... I am told that positions were beyond 20 to one.

If one were to actually hold a one million dollar mortgage on a property that both dropped in value to $700,000 and then the owner defaulted, your loss would be the 1,000,000 - (the sales price) + (PI paid) - (cost of property resale). (plus oddes and ends).

Assume for argument, you would have lost $300,000. It would be a personal jolt. BUT, if one were able to buy $20,000,000 of property mortgage returns with your $1,000,000, you potentially could have a loss of about $6,000,000 or a 600% loss on your investment.

Really what blows this thing out of the water is that folks just never figured out what would happen if you had both defaults and property values happening along with the low investment requirements of buying real property on a margin.

They not only lost their shirt, but those of 6 other people, with each investment.

Regulation needed? Whoa, yeah.

But, at the same time, when the CEO of Lehman Bros said that he was Blind-sided by this, I could, at some level, understand it... especially after hearing Pat Buchanan say that there was no way to know that Lehman would fail.

Pat, there are times that you should just shut the pie hole and read the boodle.

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 7, 2008 1:09 PM | Report abuse

and the story behind the sculpture given to Joel at the MBPH is:
a cpl years ago one of my co-workers purchased a limited edition signed sculpture of Franzetta's Princess from another co-worker that i somehow ended up with. joel once commented that he liked franzetta's work so i KNEW that's where the sculpture belonged... (now, i just hope his wife doesn't hate me forever!)
here's what it looks like:
http://www.csmoorestudio.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/pre%202005/princesssm.jpg

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Aak!

The Canadian GP at Montreal, no more?
It's the best place I've ever been to see an F1 race (apologies to Detroit, Phoenix, Dallas, and Indianapolis), a great city with a nice dedicated race track on an island a short subway ride away.

Actually, as sd points out, I think that having to fly the whole F1 circus to North America for one race didn't make economic sense at this point. I expect that there will be Canadian and US GPs in 2010 (and proabaly every other year after, as the FIA begins rotating races due to the fact that there are more suitable venues than the teams want to run on an annual basis), when they can make the travel economical.

I'd love to tell some car stories, but I have to run.

Mebbe later?

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 1:15 PM | Report abuse

I think I'll go bid on one of these pictures for my hubby's birthday.

http://ryanstudio.blogspot.com/

Posted by: a bea c | October 7, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

and sd, nice pull on the Caesar's Palace parking lot GP. I didn't go, thinking it looked awfully hot (but then, that Dallas GP was hot as could be, too).

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

I was 14 years old the last time I went to Vegas. I have extended family in Boulder City, my grandfather being a tour guide for the Hoover Dam.

My aunt and uncle took me into Vegas for a night on the town where I attended a comedy show with topless ice dancers. The comedians were hilarious, the topless ice skaters.. what's the word for it? Silly. Yes silly adults and their bizarre forms of entertainment. That's what I thought.

Besides a few stabs at the dollar lottery, I've never gambled, AND, I've never been to a strip club. Hmmm. Not that there's anything at a strip joint that could impress me, just saying.

Posted by: DandyLion | October 7, 2008 1:19 PM | Report abuse

Howdy everyone. As many of you may know, Las Vegas is considered the 9th Hawaiian Island out here. Hawaii residents have had a love affair with Vegas since the 70's, in large part thanks to Sam Boyd who built the Boyd Group empire of hotels. Mr. Boyd lived here for a bit after WWII and got to know some Hawaii folks who he got to invest in his Vegas hotels. For whatever reason, folks here are big into gambling (although it's illegal here, even lotteries and church raffles). My parents' generation has spent the bulk of their travel and money in that town. It's true that whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, including my inheritance.

As for me, I like Vegas for shopping (lots o' stores we don't have out here) and the fact that that's the one city I can get my friends to meet me in. They won't spend the money to come out here but will pony up for Vegas any time.

Posted by: Aloha | October 7, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Wow, from zero to unbelieveably offensive in 44 words, Loomis.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 1:57 PM | Report abuse

It's safe to go to Vegas now. Céline Dion's run at Caesar's Palace has been over since late 2007 you know.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Hey guys -- check this out: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08281/918018-153.stm

I think I've figured it out -- the favorable treatment that Sarah Palin has gotten, both from the Repubs and like-minded media, is due to their collective infantilization of her. They treat her like a little girl, and she eats it up. She then prances around, pretending she's a grown-up, albeit without the actual responsibilities for her actions (mouthing those words are really, let's face it, not enough), and then winking and flirting with the big boys, ending up giving them (*ahem*) reasons to (*ahem*) grow by . . . .and in the end (so to speak) that's all they want from her -- a s e x u a l fantasy. She gives it, they get it, and there you go.

*sigh*

Posted by: firsttimeblogger | October 7, 2008 2:08 PM | Report abuse

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

*&^%&%$#@^%$#@ *&^%$ *&$#@&^%$

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 7, 2008 2:15 PM | Report abuse

S. Denizen,

Did her eye pop out?

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 7, 2008 2:16 PM | Report abuse

27 days till i never hafta to hear her name again... for the love of the FSM!

i passed a tv this am on CNN and THERE SHE WAS! by golly!

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 2:22 PM | Report abuse

No, she just wanted to spend more time with her creepy husband and Prince René-Charles (her son).

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 2:23 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of shoes (we were weren't we?)! Check out these puppies (third pix): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2008/10/07/GA2008100701146.html?sid=ST2008100600878

Posted by: omni | October 7, 2008 2:24 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of Ignoble prizes (we were, weren't we?)! Check out these puppies:
http://improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2008

BIOLOGY PRIZE. Marie-Christine Cadiergues, Christel Joubert, and Michel Franc of Ecole Nationale Veterinaire de Toulouse, France for discovering that the fleas that live on a dog can jump higher than the fleas that live on a cat.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 7, 2008 2:30 PM | Report abuse

ftb, "the Repubs and like-minded media..."

Wait a second! Isn't the media biased toward the left?

Posted by: moderate alien | October 7, 2008 2:37 PM | Report abuse

It's critical for flea circus' to get the better performers DNA Girl...

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 2:37 PM | Report abuse

omni, those shoes aren't for the timid.

Posted by: LostInThought | October 7, 2008 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Kim, here is my Reno casino story. I accepted an invitation from C.A. to eat Thanksgiving dinner in Sparks, NV with her family. (1981) She said something like we would drive over late Wednesday, eat mid day Thursday and drive back late Thursday evening. We both had HUGE senior thesis projects to complete. I imaged that I might catch a glimpse of Lake Tahoe and anyway the drive into the Sierra Foothills is lovely in Autumn. And, I offered to help drive and pay for gas. "Don't worry," said lovely, tiny, and very studious CA.

Late Wednesday, after the dorms clear out: CA comes to my dorm room and we chat, waiting for what I did not know. Traffic to clear out? A black Cadillac El Dorado drives up, with a capped driver. Wow. chauffeur, I think. CA falls asleep in the car. We drive across CA on ROUTE 50 to Sparks when we pull into the front driveway of this hotel and casino:

john Ascuaga's Golden Nugget.

I stare at the sign. C Ascuaga. Her dad owns this place. Stunned and silent and polite, I spend the night in a penthouse unit, eat a fabulous dinner with a huge and friendly Italian extended family, and say thank you very much. Ah, yes, we go to morning Mass Thursday before dinner. I am NOT dressed to match my host family. My tiny tin of hand made carmels by, yes, the Santa Clara Carmelites (famous in several Jack London stories) are kindly received. Return to the Bay Area to commence projects.

Later, I tell my dad. He casually mentions, "Wow. Built in part by mob money. Senator Laxalt is in the mix too."

AND no, I did not gamble.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 2:44 PM | Report abuse

Loomis, that really was pretty appalling. In case you want to go for the "but it's all factually true" defense, lemme 'splain it for you: The Mormon founders that you cite, came to that place and behaved in the way that they did, specifically as a result of their religion. Hence, their religious affiliation is completely germane to the comment and is OK. Bugsy Siegel was a mobster and a villain. Also OK. The fact that he was of Ukrainian extraction (I am taking your word for it) is relevant only if Ukraine had a reputation for producing mobsters unmatched by most other source nations; or if it has something to do with prior known criminal activities in Ukraine; or if Ukraine had a reputation for being perfectly clean and upstanding. In other words, is his Ukrainian heritage at all germane to his modus operandi? I think not. By the way, since you usually draw no distinction between present reality and heritage -- was he an immigrant, or the descendant of immigrants?

And the biggie: he was Jewish. This is fairly well-known. Stated baldly, as you did, the only reasonable inference is that you mean that his Jewish ethnicity contributed to the style and fact of his being a criminal. This is plain and simple bigotry. You did not, for instance, note that he came from a Jewish criminal enterprise in some place, which would have established that he was one of many and would have merited a further note about how organized crime tends to develop as a parasitism on all ghetto-ized ethnic groups. You also designate him as a "Jew mobster", not a "Jewish mobster", which has a definite stink of bigotry to it, just from the phraseology.

So, as bc says (I'll trust his word-count, just as I trust your genealogy): from zero to incredibly offensive in just 44 words. A real tour de force.

Posted by: PlainTim | October 7, 2008 2:47 PM | Report abuse

SHOES! Thanks, dbG.

I wore my cowboy boots today. Work fine on a bike because of the deep cutout for the heel. Am contemplating a new pair, because, gosh darn it, I deserve it.

Mine are very old-school pointed Tony L's and are not, shall we say, for line dancing. Good for many things, including an occasional good swift kick in the you-know-what, when the occasion demands.

Had thought about some flat toed Justin Ropers, but you know, sometimes a gal really needs those pointed toes.

Tune Cootie: Nancy Sinatra's These Boots......

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 2:50 PM | Report abuse

So you know how the other half lives, CP. Loved the story.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 2:54 PM | Report abuse

These phrase represent the most truthful and respectful way to say what should not have been said on this boodler just a few moments earlier.

...Bugsy Siegal, mobster who happened to be Jewish.

...Al Capone, mobster who happened to be Italian.

...James "Whitey" Bulger, mobster who happens (ed?) to be Irish.

...Carl Harmon, mobster who happens to be Black.

The CLAUSES are non restrictive because the additional information is simply that -- additional detail.

None of the details -- Jewish, Italian, Irish, Black -- are essential to the phrases identifying a person as a mobster.

ScTim's case is particular and not at all what the poster meant.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Who was it that posted the link to the puppets singing about racism yesterday?

Being a Colombian Jew of German descent, I'll stop right here and just hit submit. I'll be back later when I'm in a friendlier mood.

Posted by: a bea c | October 7, 2008 3:06 PM | Report abuse

Are you grading my posts?

Posted by: Dolpin Michael | October 7, 2008 3:07 PM | Report abuse

LITERATURE PRIZE. David Sims of Cass Business School. London, UK, for his lovingly written study "You Bastard: A Narrative Exploration of the Experience of Indignation within Organizations."

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 3:08 PM | Report abuse

Me, Dolphin Michael? No, not grading your posts. Not grading anybody's post. However, simply reminding us that words can be strung together for specific effects.

Words can hurt: Intentionally and unintentionally.

Boorishness, also. Sigh.

Interesting, though, how the grammar comment underscores how a writer choose to wield words is very much in part an ethical stance.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 3:14 PM | Report abuse

Much as I wish to sneak past the kitchen counter on this one, the URL adds another reference to the Governor of Alaska. Anyway, a diagram of how to debate like the GOP VP nominee.

http://www.adennak.com/archives/palinflow.gif

Plus, related to current discussions on the boodle... SHOES! Yes, shoes are awesome!

Posted by: Fifty | October 7, 2008 3:24 PM | Report abuse

Alas, Dolphin Michael, it is not possible to grade your posts, or those of anyone else. Nor can we smooth them out, cover them over, or really do any kind of effective earth-moving. In addition to the absence of italics and links, the Boodle simply will not support heavy construction equipment.

Lord knows I've tried.

One of the Boy's first words was "tractor". Close behind it was "backhoe". When he was a toddler I told him Apollo harnessed his horses to his chariot every day and pulled the sun across the sky. He looked at me a minute then decisively said it wasn't a chariot. "It a backhoe."

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 7, 2008 3:24 PM | Report abuse

Out of the mouth of babes, Ivansmom! I hope you didn't totally collapse in laughter in front of him. That's hilarious - a story to tell at his wedding rehearsal party.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 3:27 PM | Report abuse

Ivansmom,
now that I'm over the sportier car, that phase I of middle age, I covet heavy equipment. Even in phase II of middle age men are still little boys at heart.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 3:28 PM | Report abuse

SCCThat's and ; somewhere.

I'm going home. Getting sleepy here. Manning the boodle half the night was too much for me. I'm getting feeble in my old age, all-nighters are definitively a thing of the past.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 7, 2008 3:31 PM | Report abuse

a bea c,
That was me with the Avenue Q song. There's always something relevant.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 3:35 PM | Report abuse

totally apropos of nothing - it's a georgeous day in downtown DC.

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 3:37 PM | Report abuse

just wish i knew what the heck is giving me seasonal allergies!

ACHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 3:38 PM | Report abuse

We've got your back, Shriek. Go get some sleep.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 7, 2008 3:40 PM | Report abuse

mo, could it be Sarah Pollen?

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 7, 2008 3:41 PM | Report abuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Mafia

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 3:46 PM | Report abuse

I'm grading your posts, Dolphie. Watch out.

:-)

Posted by: TBG | October 7, 2008 3:58 PM | Report abuse

Dang -- I hear another cricket. Maybe it knows that I stepped on its brother/sister the other night (not on purpose, but, well, you know). It's that time of year, of course, but I haven't the faintest idea how they come in. I hear it, but can't find it.

grrrrrrr.

Posted by: firsttimeblogger | October 7, 2008 3:59 PM | Report abuse

*groan* mudge!

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 4:00 PM | Report abuse

No, slyness, I didn't laugh at the idea that Apollo had switched to a backhoe. Gods change with the times, y'know, and it seemed at least within the realm of possibility.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 7, 2008 4:07 PM | Report abuse

This also is offensive...

After Bailout, AIG Executives Head to Resort
UPDATED: 11:31 a.m.

Less than a week after the federal government offered an $85 billion bailout to insurance giant AIG, the company held a week-long retreat for its executives at the luxury St. Regis Resort in Monarch Beach, Calif., running up a tab of $440,000, Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) said today at the the opening of a House committee hearing about the near-failure of the insurance giant...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/livecoverage/2008/10/after_bailout_aig_executives_h.html?hpid=topnews

Posted by: TBG | October 7, 2008 4:09 PM | Report abuse

*watching the knight with the rubber chicken approach 'Mudge, arm raised to strike*

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 7, 2008 4:12 PM | Report abuse

Okay, I did the calculation. If the Dow keeps losing 500 points a day, it will be in negative territory on Monday, November 3, 2008.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 4:16 PM | Report abuse

What happens to the certificates when that happens? Do they shrink, or disappear with a small popping sound?

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 4:24 PM | Report abuse

I believe it's more of a "splat" sound, Yoki.

*SIGH*

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 7, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

Whatchoo got against Boers, CP?

Posted by: Dutch Shultz999 | October 7, 2008 4:36 PM | Report abuse

Hi, all.

Just wanted to point out that Mormons practiced polygamy until 1890.

In case anyone cares.

Posted by: Wheezy | October 7, 2008 4:37 PM | Report abuse

good afternoon boodle! It took the very stupid purchase of a Datsun 280Z when I was in OCS to teach me about car buying and shopping for credit. While Mr. F did finance my Miata (an anniversary gift since I don't do jewelry) he paid it off in less than 12 months and 7 years later it has 34,000 miles on it. Not in league with Yello's dad's mileage but low enough frostdottir complains of it being a "garage ornament." There's nothing like the envy of a teenaged girl to put a spring in your step.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 4:41 PM | Report abuse

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending soldiers out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 7, 2008 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Yay Wheezy!

The-bigot-that-claims-she's-a-feminist must have overlooked that!

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 4:43 PM | Report abuse

jeezy peezy DM - who said THAT?

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Hi Yoki! Yeah, I thought you'd like that.

Posted by: Wheezy | October 7, 2008 5:02 PM | Report abuse

MO!!! Who else would say something like that .... I'm waiting for my grade!

Give you a hint (think black pumps and "can I call you Joe? Wink)

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 7, 2008 5:10 PM | Report abuse

Well.. here's some good news that will put everyone back in a good mood!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20231469,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

Posted by: TBG | October 7, 2008 5:21 PM | Report abuse

And her initials are S.P. Likes being compared to a barracuda or a pit bull, but not a pig...

Sunny, blue sky day here - but windy, like winter storm windy. My kid took off to go on a bike ride. I'm using his visit as an excuse to take time off work, even though I won't get to see him that much.

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 7, 2008 5:24 PM | Report abuse

*mutter, mutter*

27 days...

27 days...

Posted by: mo | October 7, 2008 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, yeah, we get who DM is talking about.

A red Miata, frosti? Oooh, that's a kewl car. I'm happy with the Toyota but it would be so nice to have a fun car to take on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Let's get some shoes with Kelly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCF3ywukQYA

My son love this video. Some language not safe for work. Okay, a lot of language.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 5:29 PM | Report abuse

Hi Ho. Been hiding behind multiple heavily locked doors (think Maxwell Smart) in an undisclosed location today. No internet. No radio. No television. Kinda nice actually. I'm thinking about maybe subletting.

Anyway. I have never been to Las Vegas, and don't really have the desire to do so. Gambling has never really appealed to me. (Says a man with 80% of his retirement in stocks.) Although, as I have mentioned before, I did make 5 bucks with the slot machines in the LV airport once. So, like, I'm totally on a winning streak!

And yet. I can certainly see the appeal of LV. I have heard that it is like Disneyland for grownups. By which, of course, is meant a fantasy world totally divorced from reality with lots of cleavage.

Which is why, I guess, some people who go there end up totally divorced.


Posted by: RD Padouk | October 7, 2008 5:30 PM | Report abuse

Jkt,

A perfect match for Winkin' Sarah!!

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 7, 2008 5:33 PM | Report abuse

After seeing what you personally selected for Joel's Boodlemeister prize, I am fairly sure you're now his favorite fan, Mo.

His wife on the other hand-- well for the sake of peace in the Achenbach domicle, I just hope she can knit something to cover up that leather bra.

--Or that he keeps it at the office to compete with Weingarten's oomululuky walrus penis.


Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 5:36 PM | Report abuse

BRG (British Racing Green) slyness, not red, but way cool and my absolute dream car.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 5:37 PM | Report abuse

I liked this artilce about John McCain.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/23316912/makebelieve_maverick/print

"In one vital respect, however, the comparison is deeply unfair to the current president: George W. Bush was a much better pilot."

Length alert.

Posted by: Boko | October 7, 2008 5:38 PM | Report abuse

Years ago in the late 80’s during my very short career in real estate there was a convention out in Las Vegas. The owners of our office wanted us all to go and they made all the arrangements. They even ran classes in the office at night on how to play black jack and craps. I spent TEN days in Vegas. One of the other non-gamblers and I hung out together, she was and is a very funny woman so we did have a lot of laughs. We saw Hoover Dam, which is really worth seeing, and the Liberace museum, which isn’t (but we were desperate). We saw every show - I think we saw a few of them twice. We did play the slots, this is back when they took quarters and had handles. We also played the $2 black jack tables. I brought $200 to gamble with and by the time we left I had lost it all. We did have some fun at those black jack tables, talking with the other patrons and the dealers and people watching. For under $40 one night we had three hours of hilarity at a table that was much more fun than the shows. But the ten days were very long and I have zero desire to ever see Vegas again.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 7, 2008 5:48 PM | Report abuse

PlainTim's 2:47 while full of umbrage pinpoints an essential problem:

Anybody claiming to have journalistic experience should know to stick with the 5 W's and not add in irrelevant information that implies false connections.

It was poorly written for a factual statement. It however was also clearly written bigotry, whether intended or not.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 5:54 PM | Report abuse

After traveling a few days through the beautiful California and Nevada desert and staying in small, comfortable motels, Son of G and I spent one night in Vegas last summer and both hated it.

It was HOT even at night (unbearable), loud and there were too many men handing out filthy cards advertising women and their "wares." At one point Son of G actually said to one of the men, "I'm with my mom!"

After staying in places where we had pulled our car right up to our room and could hop right in the pool, we got to our Vegas hotel and it took about 20 minutes to get from the lobby to our room.

I did remind Son of G that when he's a few years older and can partake of most of the "fun" available in Las Vegas, he'll probably have a better time with his buddies than he did with him mom.

The highlight of our time in Vegas, though, was the fabulous breakfast we had at a small casino away from The Strip. It had been recommended to us by some bikers we had met earlier that week in the desert. When we walked in, we couldn't believe we'd found the right place, but over in one corner, away from the slot machines and card tables, was a small diner with one of the best breakfasts I've eaten--and one of the most interesting clientele I've ever seen.

Posted by: TBG | October 7, 2008 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Really like that car story, Joel. Given the nasty collision of consumer confidence and credit availability it is no wonder those folks are hurting.

Interesting that that we are 27 days from the election. Because according to my back-of-the-envelope calculations, this is just about when the stock market will hit zero.

And then we can stop worrying about it.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 7, 2008 6:20 PM | Report abuse

Regards that McCain story and his brand of patriotism... "L'etat, c'est moi" springs to mind.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 6:25 PM | Report abuse

British racing green - oh, that's just perfect, frosti.

I had been in the fire department for less than a year and a half when the MGM Grand Hotel burned, with the loss of 87 lives and an ultimate cost of $223 million. (Gotta love Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Grand_Las_Vegas_hotel_fire.) It was naturally a big deal in fire service circles, and the magazine articles about the firefight fascinated me. That fire highlighted the necessity of sprinkler systems, and I'm sure all the hotels are now have them. If the building code in Nevada doesn't require them, I'm sure the insurance companies do. The vast open spaces with huge fire loads - for a firefighter, Vegas is a very, very scary place.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 6:37 PM | Report abuse

I've been to Vegas a couple of times for conferences - other wise, no desire to visit. The Hoover Dam is worth seeing, and you can even zip into Arizona from there. I tend to seek out the art exhibits - quiet, free - or stay in the make-believe worlds of the hotels. My proudest accomplishment while in Vegas - not throwing up on the Hilton Star Trek ride.

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 7, 2008 6:37 PM | Report abuse

That inspires a new kit title to my mind, Mostly... "Hedonism 'Til you Puke".

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 6:43 PM | Report abuse

I've been to Vegas. More times that I'd have liked--gambling is a family pasttime. Fun town the first time, after that, you throw some dice, play some cards, and then you're ready to get outside the city. Also, there must be as many chiropractors in Vegas as attorneys in DC...there must be a lot of back problems in that town (there seems to be a disproportional number of really top-heavy women.)

CP's going boot shopping?!? Can I go too? Pick Me! Pick Me!

Have a happy evening all.

Posted by: LostInThought | October 7, 2008 6:54 PM | Report abuse

Mo - usually when we see goldenrod blooming, it blooms when ragweed pollinates and ragweed is a wind pollinator that is really irritating to lot of allergy suffers. You can check pollen county in your area at http://www.aaaai.org/nab/index.cfm?p=pollen

ftb - thanks for the link to the post gazette opinion. He nailed it.

Fall report. The sweet gums and bradford pears are starting to turn colors and but most of the rest of the trees are still green. I expect if we drive out to the country, the sumacs will be turning orange and red. Our hummingbirds left earlier this week, time to take the feeder down.

Speaking of migrations, on the way back from moving MIL to Georgia, we saw a number of caravans of electric utility trucks heading East Guess most of the emergency work on the coast has been done. This was a week ago last Saturday. A friend who used to live in Beaumont told me that there is a lot of work to be done there yet but the local utilities are handling it.

Posted by: km2b | October 7, 2008 7:10 PM | Report abuse

slyness - I see you did the calculation as well. Of course, we all know that things will bottom out well before then. Right?

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 7, 2008 7:13 PM | Report abuse

CP,
My night in Vegas was also broiling hot even well after midnight. I missed all the girlie cards, so I may have to go back for them. Some coworkers once passed through on business and brought back brochures full of pictures of girls willing to come to your room. In case you need an extra for a late night pinochle game since prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas itself.

Hoover Dam was surprisingly close to Vegas. The winged statues look like props from Battlestar Galactica.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 7:14 PM | Report abuse

SCC:
TBG is the one complaining about the heat in Vegas. CP is going shoe shopping with Kelly. So many initials and such a little brain.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Psst. Yj, are you senioring a bit? CP is going boot shopping with LiT, which will require a trip out west.

Who is Kelly?


Who is Kelly? what is she,
That all our swains commend her?
Holy, fair, and wise is she;
The heaven such grace did lend her,
That she might admirèd be.

Is she kind as she is fair?
For beauty lives with kindness.
Love doth to her eyes repair,
To help him of his blindness,
And, being helped, inhabits there.

Then to Kelly let us sing,
That Kelly is excelling;
She excels each mortal thing
Upon the dull earth dwelling:
To her let us garlands bring.



Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 7:20 PM | Report abuse

I bet that Ivansmom can sing Shubert's Sylvia, which is actually Shakespeare's Sylvia, nicely.

Elizabeth Swartzkopf sings here,complete with the gentle hum and hiss of a real vinyl recording:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJvfletnDRA

Now, Norwegian Jussi Boerling singing this auf Deutsch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26AB5hDgzvo&feature=related

But here is the version I grew up with, John McCormack, the Irish Tenor of yore. You can hear him clear his throat at the beginning. Classic Irish tenor, with the thin and reedy voice, rather than the full bodied Italian pipes. Must be the wine vs. the whiskey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVH5aopRWew&feature=related

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 7:29 PM | Report abuse

Or the lack of operatic training, CP.

It takes training to confidently utilize the voice fully and learn how to sing from both the head and the belly.

(Just one of those random facts I picked up in my own failed voice training.)...


Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 7:41 PM | Report abuse

Don't take off your shoes!
Jobs is on the way.

Ooh! Lookwhat I found.
http://www.firesigntheatre.com/albums/sfi8.mp3

Posted by: Boko | October 7, 2008 8:04 PM | Report abuse

Actually not, Wilbrod. A matter of style. Both McCormack and Boerling were fully trained and great stars in their day (which were different days by a decade or three).

The "Italian Style" of that day (and sort of this, too) is very full, rich, loud and mannered. If you listen to surviving Caruso recordings, you hear it in full flower. Many sentimental flourishes while remaining musicianly and faithful to the score.

The "Irish Style" while still musically sophisticated, is less "artificial" (which then did not mean inauthentic, merely arty, full of artifice) and in a fully intentional way meant to mimic the simple singing voice of the untrained but gifted peasant in the glen or the pub.

You (well, not you, but one) can hear the contrast to this day among trained singers in each tradition, though to my ear the gap has narrowed and the Italian Style has won the showdown. A loss, I think, as pretty good amateur singers have a better chance to sing well when they know something of the history and sound of the Irish.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:16 PM | Report abuse

I said operatically trained. Any Irish operas out there? Very different genre from as you say, folk-based singing of ballads.

Not that there is anything wrong with Irish, I quite enjoy watchying the Irish tenors on TV.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 8:18 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod, don't be purposely obtuse to avoid being wrong.

You don't need to sing Irish-composed opera to be an opera singer in the Irish style. Lots of singers in the Italian style aren't Italian (like, say, Boerling, Norman, Schwartzkopf...) and all of them sing opera that is not Italian. Lots of German and Scandinavian and, yes, Irish operas exist. Also Canadian, American, Chilean, Russian and Africa opera scores are composed and performed. The style is just that, not a country of origin of the actual score. So please spare me.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:24 PM | Report abuse

It is true,someone is always gambling. And lately it seems like there is a football game on every night too.Tuesday Night football? Can't we just have 1 night without football?

Sorry guys,even I get tired of watching football!!!

Looking forward to the debate starting soon!!

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 7, 2008 8:24 PM | Report abuse

Nate Silver from fivethirtyeight.com is going to be on Colbert tonight, in case anyone can actually stay awake that long. Not sure I can.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 8:25 PM | Report abuse

gwe! I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:26 PM | Report abuse

Mo

This link

http://frazettaartgallery.com/gallery/HTML/sculptures.html

will take you to Frazetta's sculptures. Scroll down the page, you will eventually come to The Princess in bronze. I like your porcelain version much better. You have very fine taste.

Many interesting pieces of his work are shown in this link.

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 8:29 PM | Report abuse

SCC: African (I originally wrote South African, but then remembered performances of Ugandan, Kenyan, Ghanaian, Nigerian and Togolese operas).

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:34 PM | Report abuse

Say....anybody up for the debate tonight? 9 PM. Tom Brokaw moderates town hall type debate. NBC & probably all network channels.

Need to load dishwasher, then I'll be ready.

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 8:35 PM | Report abuse

I'm firing up the laptop and flexing my inane muscle to get it in shap to live-blog during the debate.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:36 PM | Report abuse

VL - Oh my. I guess Joel should just be happy that he wasn't presented with that "Ghoul Queen." Jeepers.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 7, 2008 8:37 PM | Report abuse

I sort of like the Barbarian. Looks just like Himself only with longer hair and fewer clothes.

I gotta confess, I don't get it. What was the reference to the Princess? Something Joel wrote?

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:41 PM | Report abuse

Yeah Yoki,usually I'm sports,sports,sports,sports,sports,sports!!!!

We have a couple here,celebrating their 30th anniversary,I sent them to a special restaraunt in town and they seated them right next to another couple clebrating their 30th too.They thanked me for a wonderful evening......

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 7, 2008 8:41 PM | Report abuse

Excuse me, Yoki, for being obtuse.

You said I was wrong and THEN said there is such a thing as "Irish operatic training", but it's based on folksinging style.

With all due respect, you can stuff the "purposefully" part.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 8:42 PM | Report abuse

How nice is that, gwe? Very.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:42 PM | Report abuse

With all due respect, Wilbrod, I can read and when I said trained you might have remembered that.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:44 PM | Report abuse

And in related news, my grandma died today, heart attack in her chair. Just read it a few minutes ago.

Good night all.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 8:44 PM | Report abuse

I am always ready with my inane commentary, currently working on uploading some pictures of our perfect fall day here, leaves are really starting to be beautiful, and were set off well against the clear blue skies today.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 8:46 PM | Report abuse

For those of you who might need a moment of zen during the debate,

http://picasaweb.google.ca/dmd2921/October072008#slideshow

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 8:47 PM | Report abuse

Oh Wilbrod, I'm so sorry about your Grandma. Such sad news.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 8:47 PM | Report abuse

Yoki - The Frazetta reference goes back to Joel's plan to redecorate the defunct WaPo Radio studio:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/achenblog/2007/08/achenblog_to_take_over_washing.html

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 7, 2008 8:47 PM | Report abuse

Sad news Wilbrod.

I'm signing off as well. This has been a very exhausting day.

Cheers

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 7, 2008 8:49 PM | Report abuse

Oh my, Wilbrod, I'm sorry to hear that. Peace be with you and your family.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 8:55 PM | Report abuse

Very sorry about your Grandmother Wilbrod, my thought are with you.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 8:56 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod, I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother.

Good night, everyone. I don't think I can stomach the debate today. I want to have some good thoughts heading into Yom Kipur and McCain will blow those right out of my head.

Posted by: a bea c | October 7, 2008 8:57 PM | Report abuse

Now, see, *that's* funny. So sorry I didn't get it on Saturday night or I would've laughed a lot louder.

Go Mo!

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

My condolences, Wilbrod.

And my apologies to all, but technical difficulties will delay further MBPH pic updates a day or so. :-(

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 7, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

I am so sorry about your grandmother, Wilbrod.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 7, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Ahem. I hope nobody wants a Frazetta statuette for the bunker. They appeal to me even less than Kinkade and Lladro.

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod, I'm so sorry to hear about your grandmother's death. Condolences. I lost my Gramma in 1987, and I still miss her.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Yoki for the riffs on the the ways that music can be different but also authentic.

I like it all! John McCormack and Enrico Caruso both enlarge our worlds.

This made me play Cecilia Bartoli's sining of the art aria Bocca Bella, which means "beautiful mouth," which I first heard in John McCormack's voice. My grandmother was mad, simply mad, for John McCormack.

Not sure I can live blog, because I am grading papers. But, will click onto you and your thoughts. I guess I will contemplate the ties and suits and gestures, but type after the avalanche of papers is done.

CPBOy is calling me to the debate. GOOD! That is a future voter#


Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 9:01 PM | Report abuse

So sorry about your grandmother, Wilbrod.

Am watching the debate. What's the over/under on the first time I throw something at the television?

Posted by: Raysmom | October 7, 2008 9:02 PM | Report abuse

Is it permissible to wish you a happy Yom Kipur, a bea c? Go!

And remind me to tell you my most favourite Yom Kipur story when next we meet, which involved a young fellow confessing to impure thoughts at schul on the evening of.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

The metatext to my "stuff your purposefully":

Too often we can read the words, and yet misread the other person's state of mind.

I invite you to read my words yet again.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 9:05 PM | Report abuse

Been a busy afternoon and evening, all.

Wilbrod, I'm sorry to hear of your Grandma's passing.

Can I go shoe shopping, too? I could use some new Gladiator sandals.

Now to the debate: What's up with Brokaw's green jacket? Did he win a golf tournament or something?

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 9:06 PM | Report abuse

So sorry, Wilbrod. Sending sympathetic embrace for you and your family.

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Ok, I should be working not paying attention to the debate. But how much money did McCain just want to spend to buy up all the bad home loans?

Posted by: astromom | October 7, 2008 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Two 'my friends" in under a minute. This better not keep up. And now a lame joke. Ugh!

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 7, 2008 9:09 PM | Report abuse

McCain is moving quite close to the guy who asked the first question.

If he sat down in that guy's lap to answer it, he just might get this uncomitted vote.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 9:10 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Yoki. It's just shocking at how hard it hit me.

It's been a few days of tension as to her health. I'm glad she got home from the hospital and then died in her chair the way she always wanted to go, independent to the last, like the daughter of Canadian pioneers that she was.

On top of all else that's happened this year, it's not going to be easy on my parents; they moved up north specifically to take care of her.



Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 9:10 PM | Report abuse

GP-deprived Montreal residents can come visit in April:

http://www.gpstpete.com/

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 7, 2008 9:13 PM | Report abuse

McCain seems to be talking down to the audience - would not impress me.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 9:14 PM | Report abuse

My condolences about your grandmother, Wilbrod. Losing a loved one like that is tough hit. Remember her fondly.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Can't believe that McCain accuses me of never having heard of Fannie Mac. Don't treat me like an idiot, geezer. I just lost the don't throw things at the TV contest.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 9:20 PM | Report abuse

McCain's wrong about blaming all of this on the GSEs.

They *can't* make loans to consumers, only banks and other lending institutions can.

Sheesh.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 9:20 PM | Report abuse

So sorry about your grandmother Wilbrod.

I am disappointed in both candidates that neither had the guts to say what we all know, things are going to get worse before they get better.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 9:21 PM | Report abuse

Have you noticed that they both seem to be dropping their "G"s?

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

I thought this was the format most suited to McCain, watching the view response on CNN and my own personal response and he is not coming across well.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Yellojkt, that we will. We have plenty of "tough old lady" stories to tell.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 7, 2008 9:24 PM | Report abuse

Maggie-I did notice, and I don't like it.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

Was brewing some coffee, and thought I heard McCain having an issue with spending money on a planetarium in Chicago.

Did I hear that right?

Is he saying that science education is some sort of a waste?

[bc shakes his head in attempt to clear it]

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 9:27 PM | Report abuse

It's the "Palin Doctrine," just drop some finial gs and you're good to go!

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod sorry for your loss.

We were very busy tonight, alot of activity here tonight, since the debate started it has slowed down to almost nothing.It sure is nice to see everyone concerned enough to watch our two canidates debate.

notice the ties? blue dems,red rep coincidence?

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 7, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Sacrifices.

The overhead projector!

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 9:30 PM | Report abuse

Sorry about your Gran, Wilbrod.

Posted by: Boko | October 7, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

McCain seems to be saying "me too, me too" to a lot of what Obama says. He's also gotten a few more 'my friends' in there.

Frosti, I agree with you about the things getting worse thing.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 7, 2008 9:31 PM | Report abuse

bc, he did say that. And you're surprised? What does science teach us? To be sceptical. To question received wisdom.

Do you really think that the GOP wants that?

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:33 PM | Report abuse

McCain's mentioned the "overhead projector" several times already tonight.

In terms of Federal spending on science education, the visitor center at the Kennedy Space Center is self-supporting. Supposedly no government money. I wonder what kind of impression this leaves on foreign tourists?

Could I suggest a $30/day Smithsonian Pass?

Posted by: Dave of the Coonties | October 7, 2008 9:33 PM | Report abuse

I wish they would answer the question, and Tom Brokaw is going to throw a hissyfit if they don't start watching the time alloted to them.

Posted by: VinageLady | October 7, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Great idea Dave, know that we've been there for free. ;-)

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 7, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Why doesn't he just cut them off? They're not going to stick to the rules unless he makes them.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 9:38 PM | Report abuse

Brokaw did! Obama must be fuming. But I'm glad.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

"It's not that hard to fix Social Security"

yeah, right.

Posted by: astromom | October 7, 2008 9:41 PM | Report abuse

Maybe Tom needs to throw a flag,draw a yellow card,blow his whistle!!

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 7, 2008 9:41 PM | Report abuse

Yoki, I'm not surprised as much as I didn't hear it very well over the coffee pot.

Not surprised, sadly.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 9:43 PM | Report abuse

I go to penalty box, feel shame.

Posted by: Raysmom | October 7, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

McCain complained about all the money spent on the 'over-head projector' at the planetarium. You know, those little dohickeys you use to view transparencies up on the wall.

Posted by: Boko | October 7, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Me Neether. Sad, reely.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Now McCain can't finish a sentence. He clearly doesn't know anything about the climate change/green jobs question. He's starting to sound like Sarah.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

Overhead projectors are so last century. Doesn't he know about laptop projectors?

Posted by: slyness | October 7, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

Slyness I am not sure McCain understands we are in a new century.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 9:47 PM | Report abuse

You got to wonder why Arizona has continued to send McCain to the senate when he can't be bothered to bring back any pork.

Posted by: astromom | October 7, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

Cool (and tricky) question. And another "my friends."

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

What a good question: Fund a new Manhattan Project or fund a million garages a la Silicon Valley for new energy. Which one would you choose?

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 9:50 PM | Report abuse

Why is McCain walking around while Obama speaks - very disrespectful.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

Maggie, we need both garage tech and big think woo woo woo science.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 9:52 PM | Report abuse

I'm pretty bored. Obama isn't answering the commodity question.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 7, 2008 9:52 PM | Report abuse

That would have been my response too, CP.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 9:53 PM | Report abuse

This is just bugging me, but McCain's tie looks it's down to his knees. Who dressed him?

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 9:53 PM | Report abuse

If I understood McCain correctly he wants the gummint to pay for development, then hand it over to the private sector (to make all the profit).

I think a hybrid approach would work.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

McCain doesn't seem to know much about a lot of stuff and this 'my friends' stuff is driving me nuts!!!!

Oh yeah, I can't wait to shop around for health insurance - ugh! McCain is babbling.

Posted by: Bad Sneakers | October 7, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

McCain used air quotes on 'medical "errors" as they call them'. Are they not errors?

I favor Manhattan project for the future tech. As for tech we already have, let it grow in the garage model, although did the gov't fund that? I thought it was investors.

Posted by: astromom | October 7, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

Cheap shot on the hair plugs. No one laughed.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

Forget the lights or airhorns -- how about simply starting the timer for each segment and cutting the mike when time's up?

For those suggesting canine training shock collars and handing the remotes to Brokaw, I'd say that's just wrong.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 7, 2008 9:58 PM | Report abuse

I struggle with this every day. People in garages are the ones who come up with good ideas. But those ideas don't get commercialized until there are big ol' sexy (kind of like me!) programs to invest in the changing of prototypes to models.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 9:59 PM | Report abuse

How drunk would you be if you were taking a shot at every "my friends"? I think I'd be at the hospital by now.

Posted by: astromom | October 7, 2008 10:00 PM | Report abuse

Maybe the Iraqis could lend us that money to solve our liquidity problems.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

Obama's the winner on the "Obama Doctrine" vs the "McCain Doctrine."

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Every time McCain mentions Reagan he just reminds people, particularly young voters, just how ancient he is.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Teddy Roosevelt is my hero, really, the asthmatic Bull Moose Republican, He would be very dismayed at current Republican ethos.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:12 PM | Report abuse

Yes, he did Maggie.

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 10:13 PM | Report abuse

BC -- perhaps Brokaw's jacket is a grey slate with green overtones,,,,but I have flipped through three channels and do not see the golf green jacket you mentioned.

Posted by: college Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

Follow ups squared.

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

Did I hear Obama say he would have sent troops into Rwanda? How is that different from sending troops between the Sunnis and Shia in Iraq?

Posted by: Raysmom | October 7, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

It is dark green on my TV CP.

Posted by: dmd | October 7, 2008 10:17 PM | Report abuse

McCain is accusing Obama of being a warmonger? And which is his bigger hero - Reagan or Roosevelt? Pick one.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 10:17 PM | Report abuse

I appreciate the civility and reasonable tenor of the debate.


Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:18 PM | Report abuse

Switched to c-span from PBS, the cameras seem to be giving more views of the person who is not speaking. McCain would do well to at least act like he's listening.

Ma Frostbitten says "McCain knows how to win wars, and can't wait to get into a new one to prove it."

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 10:18 PM | Report abuse

McCain is not speaking English anymore. Many of his sentences are just words mushed together, they don't connect with one another, and don't add up to any coherent argument. It really seems significantly worse than the last debate. Is he tired? Or does pallin around with Palin have bad consequences?

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 7, 2008 10:19 PM | Report abuse

"exacerbate our reputation"? Does McCain know what he is saying, because I don't.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse

McCain may be pacing to process the information; I am a pacer under stress.

Obama might process information when he looks off, head slightly tilted.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:24 PM | Report abuse

It's not that his tie is too long, Yello.
It's that his pants are pulled up to his nipples.

Posted by: Boko | October 7, 2008 10:27 PM | Report abuse

This is how we judge between recollection and fabrication.

My trained eye tells me that both candidates are being honest and genuine.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 10:27 PM | Report abuse

*taking time out to give Ray a tummy rub*

Posted by: Raysmom | October 7, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

I agree Yoki, and this give me a great deal of hope.


Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

Me too, CP. You all will do the right thing, whatever that might be.

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 10:32 PM | Report abuse

Too hard to answer the Zen question, so now we get the stump speeches.

Contemplating my answer. Will ask students tomorrow. Wikipedia not allowed.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:32 PM | Report abuse

I too believe that both candidates have been honest and genuine. I also believe that Obama did the better job.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 10:34 PM | Report abuse

Cindy! Get the a real hair do m and no not that one
Red tie, blue wife garb.

Blue tie, Crimson dress.

Interesting

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:36 PM | Report abuse

My, what a grown-up (read 'old')audience.

(I really don't like Ms. Oboma's dress. CP, is the zipper on the back supposed to be visible?)

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 10:37 PM | Report abuse

David Brooks: I think Obama had the edge because he has style. Arrgghh! Why does DB insist on being all fluff all the time!
Turning off TV now.
'night all.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 7, 2008 10:39 PM | Report abuse

Maggie! I agree with you, but then I would, wouldn't I?

I think MO is just wonderful and beautiful and tall and strong. But then I would, wouldn't I?

Posted by: Yoki | October 7, 2008 10:39 PM | Report abuse

I think Michelle looks snazzy, red shoes, too, if my TV color is correct. :-)

Posted by: VintageLady | October 7, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

Michelle's dress looks to be a heavy, duo knit. Nice fabric, soft but not clilnging. Winter has arrived. Don't like the blingy stuff at the neckline.

Not getting another look at Cindy's two piece in royal blue.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

Maggie, I just saw that and NO should not see that. Metallic strip really catches TV lights. Higher heels than MO typically wears and she walks nicely in them as well as her tall girl flats,

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod so sorry to hear about your grandma.

Posted by: dr | October 7, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

I agree with you, CP, about the bling. But what's with that bright shiny zipper?

Posted by: M.O'D | October 7, 2008 10:44 PM | Report abuse

OK I should back off a bit, since I do fluff a heck of a lot. But then I don't claim to take much seriously and don't expect to be taken much seriously either (unless you're in a science class with me, in which case it's about 50 % serious...maybe).
'nighty night all

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 7, 2008 10:44 PM | Report abuse

According to CSPAN, the McCain's have left the building but the Obama's are still hanging out chatting up the crowd.

Posted by: astromom | October 7, 2008 10:44 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, guys, but Michelle's dress looks like a Christmas sweater.

Posted by: Raysmom | October 7, 2008 10:45 PM | Report abuse

Obama is the more fluid and articulate public speaker. Perhaps McCain appears more innervated and worried. And, this might fit better with the national mood. Obama's coolness can read as the detachment of contemplation. Major University archetype!! Both were civil and reasonable. Wish that political discourse was always thus. But, sigh, as the ratings tell us, sometimes we wants us a big ole smackdown!

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:49 PM | Report abuse

Raysmom,
I agree with you about the Christmas sweater thing. I had not seen one until I moved to Chicago in the early 80's. Every single suburban mom seemed to have stacks of them. Ugh!!!

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 10:49 PM | Report abuse

I don't care for MO's dress either, but Cindy needs to ditch the porn star hair.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 10:51 PM | Report abuse

Raysmom! Laughing at that.

Wilbrod, sorry about your beloved granny. In her chair, though, that is something in this land of die-with-your-self betubed and be plugged. So sad, though when the great good ones of our days pass over and on. God bless,

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:52 PM | Report abuse

They must have handed out disposable cameras to the audience. They all seem to have them.

Posted by: Raysmom | October 7, 2008 10:52 PM | Report abuse

I am saddened to report that Raysdad says that Cindy is hott. Including the hair. Maybe especially the hair. Sigh.

Posted by: Raysmom | October 7, 2008 10:54 PM | Report abuse

Frosti, when I go to the hair cuttem gallery I say:

No porn star
No Hollywood just been Forded hair
No Republican bubble


then, also,
no librarian bob
no docent hair

Am going for a bit of repair on the hair tomorrow actually, snce it usually takes two passes to get it right.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:57 PM | Report abuse

Raysmom, is it the blondeness. As I age out of red into blonde, I sometimes find the blond magnet thing happening, till they hover in closer and see red evidence....the blonde thing is powerful.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 7, 2008 10:59 PM | Report abuse

I know I know, I already signed off, but as I was turning the TV off, Michael Gerson came on. I've never seen him on TV before, so I got stuck watching. Fascinating. He looks like the epitome of an effete liberal. You'd never know to look at him he's such a, well you know.

And he said this: poor McCain, he's really been a good candidate, and has had a good campaign, and it's just a shame that reality has taken over.
O....K....I guess times are really tough when you can't make up your own reality anymore.

Posted by: DNA Girl | October 7, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

I'm switching to the Daily Show. See ya.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 7, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod, so sorry to hear about your grandmother.

I watched the whole thing. Didn't hear much new, and I guess McCain couldn't figure out how to work in "the real Obama is a terrorist" bit they've been doing on the campaign trail. Glad nobody winked. Why did Brokaw keep reminding Obama about the time limit? Seemed to me McCain was the one droning on, but maybe that's just me.

I think Obama's always dropped his g's. I do too (I think), so it doesn't bother me. At least he didn't say "dagnabit". I can barely listen to McCain, so not sure if he drops them all the time.

Noticed that the Obamas stuck around afterwards. Did no one want to pose with the McCains? Or did they have someplace better to be?

I so want it to be Nov 5...

Posted by: mostlylurking | October 7, 2008 11:12 PM | Report abuse

The Daily Show is so funny I just might be able to make it through Colbert.

Toodles boodle, it's back to MN and the regular grind tomorrow.

Posted by: frostbitten | October 7, 2008 11:19 PM | Report abuse

Here is a really long article on McCain that pulls no punches:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain

Pretty much eviscerates the entire McCain hagiography.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 7, 2008 11:22 PM | Report abuse

I heard lots of talking points during the debate. My wife felt like Sen. Obama was better on the basis of his demeanor. I thought that Sen. McCain responded in a disjointed way, trying to cram everything he could in the time allowed. Considering he was in his element, regarding the town hall format, he paced to the point where it made him look too tense.

Posted by: jack | October 7, 2008 11:32 PM | Report abuse

giggle

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 11:52 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod... so sorry to hear about your grandmother. I know she was having heart issues. Nice that she went in her chair, but still it's hard. It's nice your parents moved closer to her and they'll be happy knowing they did what was right for them and for her.


Son of G and I dropped into our local Ledo's pizza parlor to grab dinner on our way home from working late and found some co-workers sharing a pitcher of beer. We bought the pizza and stuck around with them to watch the debate in the bar. Good times.

I enjoyed their company, but missed yours here.

McCain looked old and feeble pacing around with his shoulders hunched, if you ask me. Obama looked presidential. I like the way Obama says "when I'm president." McCain never says that.

Posted by: TBG | October 7, 2008 11:52 PM | Report abuse

My condolences to you and your family Wilbrod. I'm so sorry about your grandmother.

Posted by: Aloha | October 8, 2008 12:02 AM | Report abuse

Did McCain's jacket fit better this time, CP?

I thought it was less than flattering, everytime he rose his arms, it looked like the arm holes were cut halfway down his rib cage, which is a style I especially hate in my own jackets.

(By the way, I also noticed he could raise his arms slightly above shoulder level without apparent discomfort; I've seen him much stiffer before-- it must vary, like with arthritis. Or he was packing heat then.)

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 12:09 AM | Report abuse

Hi, everyone. I haven't been here much for a while, but happened to see the posts about the recent BPH and wished I lived over there so I could attend. I've been in DC once for a week to demonstrate a DoD system (spent all the time inside a windowless building in VA), and also three days in Balmer once, but never during a BPH. At least I saw a lot of buildings I recognized while flying in and out!

Regarding tonite's "debate", whenever I hear McCain going on relentlessly about the need to be tough, I am reminded of Ashby's 1st or 2nd or whatever Law of Cybernetics (which I cite when I'm training soccer referees): a controller needs to be capable of more variety than the system it's controlling. This a major reason that W is such a failure. Here's what Wiki says about it --

"If a system is to be stable the number of states of its control mechanism must be greater than or equal to the number of states in the system being controlled. Ashby states the Law as "only variety can destroy variety"[4]. He sees this as aiding the study of problems in biology and a "wealth of possible applications" . He sees his approach as introductory to Shannon Information Theory (1948) which deals with the case of "incessant fluctuations" or noise. The Requisite Variety condition can be seen as a simple statement of a necessary dynamic equilibrium condition in information theory terms c.f. Newton's third law, Le Chatelier's principle."

The worst offender is of course Ms Palin, who never varies what she says, and one supposes would never vary what she did were she to become POTUS, like W. Obama also pounds some points constantly, but seems to stop and think from time to time. Maybe I'm not impartial, dunno.

Posted by: LTL-CA | October 8, 2008 12:41 AM | Report abuse

wilbrod, so sorry to hear about your grandma. my condolences to you and your family.

i watched about 40 minutes of the debate and decided i needed to concentrate on some number crunching at work (instead of trying to listen at the same time).

and as much as the negative campaigning is unfortunate, i have to confess i was relieved that the obama's campaign responded to the ayers nonsense immediately with keating five.

Posted by: L.A. lurker | October 8, 2008 12:44 AM | Report abuse

To be more on-topic, Las Vegas reminds me of Pinocchio, specifically the island where Stromboli took the boys, where they drank beer and smoked cigars, grew tails and turned into donkeys. (Yes, I've been there.)

Posted by: LTL-CA | October 8, 2008 12:45 AM | Report abuse

Weingarten has been predicting/hoping for a gaffe from McCain that is the final straw. I'm thinking that his referring to Obama as "That One" might be such a slip. It was rude, disrespectful and subtly racist. Much the way his campaign has turned. We'll see how the blogosphere spins it.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 5:38 AM | Report abuse

A quick opportunist is already making lemonade from McCain's sour "that one."

http://www.thatone08.com/

It's a pro-Obama site with t-shirts to sell.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 5:43 AM | Report abuse

'morning all. I fell asleep 10 minutes into the debate, so I have little insight to offer.
Condolences Wilbrod. Even when you kind of expect it such bad news surprises nonetheless.
Got to love those old dogs. For the second day in a row the silly old fool rolled on his back and rubbed himself in the frost-covered grass. That dog always loved snow for a good back rub and frost seems to be an OK substitute.
I need to get the old flaslight out of the drawer, it's getting completely dark at 0600. On the other hand the stars were giving a darn good show.

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 8, 2008 6:33 AM | Report abuse

God loves us so much more than we can imagine through Him that died for all, Jesus Christ.

Good morning, friends. I did not get a chance to look at the debate, went to the school board meeting. I could not hear one word of it. I sat next to a reporter and he scribbled notes, so I got some of it. He was a lefty, so the writing wasn't great.

McCain looked uncomfortable. Obama always looks like he's in his element. All this from the news this morning. I will never understand why anyone would consider voting for the same party that got us into this mess. On television news this morning, there is more of the financial meltdown around the world than anything concerning politics. The politics seem to be a side bar. I keep wondering, did anyone see this coming? We've lost our standing in the international community, now the finances aren't so hot. I don't want to go, what's next?

Wilbrod, sorry to hear about your grandmother. Prayers for you and your family.

Mudge, Scotty, Slyness, Martooni(where are you?)and all, good, good, morning.*waving*

We're prosecuting two wars, no taxes, finances have tanked, middle class wiped off the map, food stamp numbers up through the roof, 401(K)'s swimming in deep water, and people just basically feeling lousy, and the present administration's number(s) around what, one?

Today is Wednesday, and there is much work to do. The weather is not sunny, calls for rain and more rain. Have a great day, folks, if possible. I'm hanging with prayer, it works.

Time to swim.

Posted by: cassandra s | October 8, 2008 6:37 AM | Report abuse

Yello, after saying I wouldn't watch the debate, I did watch until the "that one" moment. I was pretty upset at how RUDE McCain was. I thought more people here would be commenting on it.

Hey, and TBG is now my "friend" at the other imaginary friend place. Pretty cool.

Time to hit the road. Enjoy your Wednesday.

Posted by: a bea c | October 8, 2008 6:46 AM | Report abuse

Maureen Dowd picked up on "That One" and also saw some racial undertones to Palin's latest stump speech.

http://dowdreport.blogspot.com/2008/10/two-willies.html

She draws parallels between this campaign and the Willie Horton hype of 1996.

Posted by: Mo MoDo | October 8, 2008 7:08 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, all.

Reading your comments is better than watching the debate, for sure. Thanks to all who posted their reactions.

This is shaping up to be a busy day, so I'll be in and out.

Wilbrod, you and your family are in my prayers.

Mudge, have you got the home 'puter fixed? Missed you last night.

Posted by: slyness | October 8, 2008 7:18 AM | Report abuse

I'm also TBG's secret friend. And now I know what the 'B' stands for - Bodacious.

I missed McCain's hair plug joke, so I had to look up the transcript:

// And if you do the math, those people who have employer-based health benefits, if you put the tax on it and you have what's left over and you add $5,000 that you're going to get as a refundable tax credit, do the math, 95 percent of the American people will have increased funds to go out and buy the insurance of their choice and to shop around and to get -- all of those people will be covered except for those who have these gold-plated Cadillac kinds of policies.

You know, like hair transplants, I might need one of those myself.//

Things McCain doesn't think I know:
What Fannie Mae is.
How to do math.
Where countries are on a map.

Pretty insulting all around.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 7:19 AM | Report abuse

SCC: The Willie Horton hype was in 1988. I'm getting old.

Posted by: Mo MoDo | October 8, 2008 7:25 AM | Report abuse

Morning all!

Didn't bother with the debate, and based on the comments I see I chose appropriately. I'm undecided this morning -- coffee or Diet Pepsi?

Well, I guess the Fed and the Euro banks are serious -- half-point rate cut -- and the markets are taking notice.

For now. *shrug*

And glow-in-the-dark cats wins you a Nobel these days...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-EU-Sweden-Nobel-Chemistry-Citation.html

*planning-a-concerted-photo-posting-session-this-evening Grover waves* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 7:42 AM | Report abuse

In light of JA's kit, it would seem he's in the wrong city. All the high rollers are on Wall Street, the new gambling capital of the world!

Posted by: cassandra s | October 8, 2008 8:08 AM | Report abuse

As usual, cassandra, you are SO right.

:-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 8:15 AM | Report abuse

Good morning Boodlers. Late for Dawn Patrol. Launching anyway.

Not impressed by debate--my friends--aaarrgghh.

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 8:36 AM | Report abuse

I didn't hear much new from either candidate. How do they figure re-hashing all their talking points is going to sway undecided voters, who no doubt have heard them all already? And why were neither of them ready to talk about solutions to the current financial mess? It's like going to a job interview and not being prepared to answer the "where do you want to be in 5 years?" question. Yeah, there's no good answer, but you need to have one.

Posted by: Raysmom | October 8, 2008 8:43 AM | Report abuse

Some things aren't even worthy of notice.

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 8:47 AM | Report abuse

Good morning all.

The responses from both candidates were culled from stump speeches -- nothing new. The one thing that jumped out at me was Obama's use of the phrase 'in my first term.'

As always, McCain's hair looks like it was cut using pinking shears and a ruler....not even a bowl.

About MOs dress...I think visible zippers are in this year. Not my style, but maybe she was going for a look that says today, not yesterday. Same with her necklines...she tends to show more skin than CM, but I suspect CM wears high collars because a woman's neck shows age more than anywhere (except her hands). (My hands look like I work on a fishing trawler).

A red-letter day here...no contractors! Hopefully, I can get a thing or two done.

Have a happy day all.

Posted by: LostInThought | October 8, 2008 8:55 AM | Report abuse

Agree, Scotty. That makes no sense at all.

Posted by: slyness | October 8, 2008 8:56 AM | Report abuse

Cassandra! That was quite a sentence... now the nation recovers, as Scottynuke suggests, for a bit.

I believe that Japan got hammered.

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 8, 2008 9:02 AM | Report abuse

Lost:

Remember what happened the last time a woman complained about McCain's hair...

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 8, 2008 9:07 AM | Report abuse

DM...Imagine calling your wife that. Wouldn't you be afraid to go to sleep? Or eat any meal she prepares? Probably be smart to check your toothpaste too.

Posted by: LostInThought | October 8, 2008 9:18 AM | Report abuse

I have to give the man credit, though. I didn't think he could make it this far through the campaign without one of his patented displays of anger. (in public).

Eugene McCarthy had a great line about folks running for President:

No man could be equipped for the presidency if he has never been tempted by one of the seven cardinal sins.

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 8, 2008 9:25 AM | Report abuse

'Morning, Boodle. Man, not having a working computer at home is really getting to be a drag. I've got TWO of 'em on my desk--and forgot to take home the one part I needed to get either one running.

DM, if knowledge (perhaps of the biblical kind) of the 7 deadly sins was a qualification for president, I'd be right up there with Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt.

I thought the debate overall was pretty boring; I thought that first hour would never end. And I thought Obama missed a lot of opportunities for stronger comebacks. The thing is, Obama isn't really beating McCain so much as McCain is just slowly shooting himself in the foot over and over again. Would like to see O being more agressive. I think he missed the granddaddy of all softballs, with the "There's a lot Sen. Obama doesn't understand," and O could have agreed and listed all the many, many things he doesn't understand about GOp screwups on the war and the economy, etc.

I thought the most telling thing of all was that the McCains left the stage almost as soon it was over, while the O's stayed and chatted. Even my wife commented on how bizarre that was.

Hate to say it, but I don't think "That one" is very meaningful; some people use it as a common grammatical construction (albeit affectionately, which McCain's usage manifestly was not).

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 9:50 AM | Report abuse

DM,
Gluttony and sloth just don't seem like good paths to the White House. Pride, avarice, and lust on the other hand...

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 9:57 AM | Report abuse

Howdy. Thanks for the debate coverage. As usual, it was better than watching. I did catch a few of the pundits afterwards (very briefly) and they none of them, whatever their affiliation, seemed happy with McCain's performance. In lieu of watching I sat with the rabbit and read. I dipped into a couple of books by some Achenbach fellow, then started a spy thriller by some guy named brag. I felt my time was well spent.

I don't believe there are that many undecided voters. According to the instant "scientific" (loved that) polls after the debate, their undecided voters basically felt Obama did significantly better on all but one category, but still can't make up their minds. I don't buy it. These candidates offer a stark contrast in almost every way. I think those people all know how they'll vote; they just like the cachet of being "undecided".

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 8, 2008 9:59 AM | Report abuse

I think the current term of art is "uncommitted", which is a les taunting way to say "I'm not telling" or "I ain't tellin'", depending on your dialect.

Posted by: PlainTim | October 8, 2008 10:10 AM | Report abuse

Good Morning All
I just read a nice article about 2 young becoming friends in the racially troubled times in the 50's. I thought I would share it with you folks.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.berry08oct08,0,5761642.story

I met Mr. Berry several times.My dad used to take my brother and I over to the Colt bowling lanes in woodlawn MD. We could meet and chat with all the players there. They were great football players,some future Hall of Famers,but they always found time to make a kid happy.

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 8, 2008 10:10 AM | Report abuse

Supposed to be be 2 young men. Nice that they finally got together after 50 some years.

Posted by: greenwithenvy | October 8, 2008 10:13 AM | Report abuse

One observation: I agree that McCain's jacket cut is all wrong for him as he's wearing it now.

If he held his elbows more at his sides rather than as if he were at the edge of a pool, the jacket would look better, for sure.

As it is now, that jacket looks like it wants to jump off his back and run away.

Waitaminute, is there one of those Heinlein Puppet Master parasitic slugs from Titan (Rove's Vacation Homeworld) on McCain's back?

That would explain the arms and the weird jacket cut...

bc

Posted by: bc | October 8, 2008 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Again, Tim, great point to bring up on uncommitted. Are Hillary Dems uncommitted? Would Peggy Noonan be considered uncommitted since she can't really say at this point that she can vote for McCain?

Tim, I have to say that you have been making some very meaty points--though often subtle--in your posts. Please, keep them coming.

Posted by: Dolphin Michael | October 8, 2008 10:21 AM | Report abuse

Turtle s e x. There is not enough mindbleach in the world to wash out the image of a 100 year old male mounting a poorly fed 80 yo female.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/world/asia/08turtle.html?ref=science

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 8, 2008 10:26 AM | Report abuse

bc,
Parasitic mind control slugs under the jacket would also explain Dubya's disjointed debate performance in 2004. Now if only we could get a video of Cheney ripping the latex mask off his reptilian face and eating a live mouse.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 10:34 AM | Report abuse

One of my friends is an undecided voter. She can distinguish the policy positions easily enough but ponders whose approach will work better, the amount of experience the candidates have, and questions of their character.

Rather than undecided or uncommitted, I'd say she's "conflicted." To her eyes, neither party has offered her a compelling candidate.

Posted by: Fifty | October 8, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Here is a committed, decided and unconflicted non-voter. This Sarah is so much cuter.
"Barack Obama's African grandmother Sarah Onyango Obama roots for him"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4902476.ece

Posted by: shrieking denizen | October 8, 2008 10:59 AM | Report abuse

"ripping the latex mask off his reptilian face and eating a live mouse"

I am corrupted by the boodle, I read that as "moose."

Posted by: nellie | October 8, 2008 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Zapped it.

New kit coming momentarily...

Posted by: Achenbach | October 8, 2008 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Shriek, you'd think if that 100-year-old turtle had any romance in him, he'd at least take that underfed 80-year-old female out for dinner first. Maybe a Meg Ryan movie. The poor thing hasn't had sex for fifty years, so I'd think a glass of wine and some extended foreplay might be in order. (I went through a wenchless dry spell like that in the early 1600s; no fun at all during the plague years and the Inquisition, and those wool cassocks were hot and heavy, and not in a good way.)

Sheesh.

(Keep the mind bleach handy; I may not be done yet.)

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 11:24 AM | Report abuse

New kit. Ready the bunker. I'll be returning if things aren't going well.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 11:34 AM | Report abuse

*loading the SuperSoaker with extra-strength mind bleach*

:-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Keep representing our famous off-topic musings before the trolls hit the new kit hot n heavy.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 11:53 AM | Report abuse

OK, I've bailed out of the new kit, and am gonna lurk here for a while. Anybody else out there? Please report in, if you're here. Thanks.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 2:10 PM | Report abuse

Came in here at your signal. Was trying to maintain a boodle around the interlopers, but yeah, vacating that boodle is as good a response as any.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 2:14 PM | Report abuse

Calling you mofo was the last straw, and all that geek and nerd stuff was close enough. We shouldn't stand for that kind of abuse. It's one thing to have trolls ranting about topics; it's another thing altogether when they start verbally abusing us.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 2:18 PM | Report abuse

Here Mudge, didn't like the personal attacks over there.

Tim, I would just say that I found McCains wandering around while Obama spoke very rude, and while he did not have to look at Obama all that often looking at someone while addressing them is common courtesy.

Respect from a leader is very important - a quality he needs to display.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 2:19 PM | Report abuse

I was catching up and hadn't gotten to the new kit yet. I take it that it ain't pretty, eh?

Posted by: Bob S. | October 8, 2008 2:19 PM | Report abuse

It's degenerated into some personal attacks.

Posted by: RD Padouk | October 8, 2008 2:23 PM | Report abuse

No, we got us a couple of drive-by trolls over there, Bob. It's not so much that they are ranting "on-topic," but that they've taken to direct verbal abuse of Wilbrod, TBG and some others.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 2:26 PM | Report abuse

DMD, yes, the walking around has that effect. However, some of us are pacers, under stress. I do better walking and talking, when under stress. The pacing is like doodling in that it releases psychological tension.

Theater people are acutely aware of your reaction as in HOW WITH THIS READ with the audience.

I try to view each person positively, and refer, if possible to their baseline patterns. I think that McCain looked more relaxed that usual. He was able to comport himself rather well, as the beleaguered underdog. What may have come out, though, is the pacing part.

I believe that Obama, who looks off askance when contemplating has been coached out of this.

The professorial stare into space is ALL around me and makes me laugh. Some evidence suggest that this pose is associated with introverted, auditory processor types.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 2:26 PM | Report abuse

Didn't mean the pacing while he talked, it was pacing while Obama was speaking - rather than sitting in his chair.

On the channel I watched as Obama addressed the audience McCain wandered behind Obama and looked at him and started to wander on the stage. It was a face on shot of Obama with his back to McCain - the only thing missing was McCain putting rabbit ears on Obama.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 2:29 PM | Report abuse

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/get-out-of-the-kitchen.html

Posted by: HST | October 8, 2008 2:29 PM | Report abuse

I'm tired -- all I needed was Trolls

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 2:30 PM | Report abuse

CP, isn't there some kind of body language lore that if you tilt your head one way (left and up? not sure) it means you're thinking, but if you tilt right it means you are making it up or lying? I seem to have heard that somewhere.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 2:31 PM | Report abuse

I probably posted that, Mudge. It's attested, although with lefthanders it does depend on how their minds are wired.


Backposting:

have a cousin who can't make eye contact unless he forces himself to. He definitely has mild Asperger's.

I told him that I just look at people's chins and monitor expression with both detail and peripheral vision, and that intense eye contact is actually a turn-off.

However, glancing at a person while talking is considered common conversational courtesy, as to indicate by a diffuse eye-point that yes, he's being addressed. It also allows one to monitor the other's facial expressions.

Men often sit side by side while talking to deemphasize threat of staring at each other while sharing space.

Obama did not make direct eye contact with McCain while talking, but he certainly looked at McCain while he was talking, rather than averting his head.

I think behavior has meaning if contrasted with other behavior from that same person.

When a person looks at and then practically climbs into questionner's lap but refuses to look at his opponent, that signals meaning, whether delibrate or not.

As for sexual interest, most men are hardwired to think that any interest from a woman can potentially be made sexual. It's not conscious, but it exists, and probably feels good too.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081003122545.htm

And to the matter of whether clothes make the man; research does show that feathers make the male bird.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080602121302.htm

We are discussing the trivial aspects, because we have already rehashed many of the actual messages sent out by both campaigns. If they have not said much new in this debate, we must therefore, focus on the pacakaging and presentation to see if they have done anything to alter their respective appeal.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 2:34 PM | Report abuse

No such thing , Mudge
Not at all easy to assign body language to lies. That's why interrogators have such a tough time getting their antagonist to confess

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 2:35 PM | Report abuse

This therapist also debunks the myth.

However, I must say that it is important to develop a baseline for any individual, rather than just go with a checklist of behaviors. As CP said, context matters. McCain did look a lot more relaxed than in the first debate.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Lying-Myths-Debunked

I tend to look up to the right a lot myself. I'm also left-eyed.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 2:38 PM | Report abuse

OK, yeah... some folks don't make eye contact when they talk, but do we want one of those for president?

Do we need a socially awkward president... really? Aren't social skills part of the job requirement?

Posted by: TBG | October 8, 2008 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Imagine McCain in a meeting with Putin and getting up and wandering around the room when Putin is speaking - how would that go over?

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

"Men often sit side by side while talking to deemphasize threat of staring at each other while sharing space."

I'm not sure that men staring at each other is a "threat," per se, or even problematic. I think I read somewhere, though, that men sit side by side or even back to back, because this stems all the way back to caveman days, when men would be hunting and "on lookout," when facing each other would be counterproductive, when they ought to be looking around them. (Note, for instance, on guard duty and in foxholes, etc., two men sit back to back and talk.) Whereas women, according to this same theory, tended to sit facing each other around the campfire while they did their chores or whatever, so that's why women feel the need to face each other when they talk, while guys don't.

The theory goes further to say that while hunting, men will sit quietly and not talk at all, and are comfortable this way.

I don't always buy into these kinds of theories, but I tend to buy into this one. I *do* know that I am comfortable not talking. One of my wife's best friends is married to a guy who is very quiet, and we have gone on trips together, and he and I can spend a few hours together hardly saying a word. Once in the Bahamas we watched an entire football game and I don't think we said more than six words the whole time. I'll bet during the same time span my wife and and her friends must have said ten thousand words to each other.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Report abuse

I'm over here too, but also over there. If we ignore the personal-attack trolls they may go away. In any case there are more of us than them. I'll be glad when the election is over, we're back to science and odd topics, and all these trolls get bored.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 8, 2008 2:45 PM | Report abuse

When arguing/debating, I find it more comfortable not to face the other guy

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Eye contact vary by culture, TBG. Not making eye contact would be appropriate with many cultures, while other cultures would INSIST on the eye contact. A certain cultural flexibility is helpful.

As PlainTim, no looking into eyes to find souls, ever again, PLEASE.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 2:51 PM | Report abuse

in many cultures eye contact is considered insulting to the elder/more senior person. It's a sign of rebellion or disrespect

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, just try having a guy stare at you and saying nothing. The "threat stare" does exist. I do tend to concur that sharing lookout duties is probably part of it too, as a form of soldiarity.

As for women looking at each other, that's not necesssarily always so, a lot of women multitask while talking so they move around as they talk.

However yes, they do prefer to sit around a table to talk rather than side by side if given the choice. Maybe it's "watching each other's backs" from attack.

As somebody who has to look while talking, I just sigh in envy at all the ways people can manage not to look at each other while talking, or even when spending time together.

I like the comfortable silences, too. Not always easy to achieve in American culture except with the right friends, although such pauses are far more common in other cultures.


Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 2:58 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps it is out Parliamentary style that it throwing me off, as you are facing the person/persons you are speaking to, to me that is the norm. To completely avoid looking at someone I find odd. Would bother me if we were having a discussion and would affect my judgement of them.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 3:01 PM | Report abuse

That troll seems fixated on Wilbrod. I'm sorry, Wilbrod. I suppose you could try taking it as a compliment (to yourself, I mean, not acknowledging it!) but probably not.

Posted by: Ivansmom | October 8, 2008 3:02 PM | Report abuse

I'm gonna go get a cuppa coffee and a ciggie.

Latta :o)

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 3:03 PM | Report abuse

I've wanted to get this off my chest for a full day now: Bugsy Siegel wasn't Ukrainian. He was born in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn. That makes him as American as you and me (well, not you Canukistanis, of course, but you know what I mean). His parents emigrated from the Poldavia region of Russia. To say they were "Ukrainian" is kinda sorta technically accurate, but I think is also largely misleading. They were Jewish, and came from what was called the Pale of Settlement, a huge area in southwestern Russia that comprised about 20 percent of the entire empire. When you think of the Pale of Settlement, think of Tevye and Fiddler on the Roof, the shtetles, the pogroms, and all that time and place. The actual regions within the Pale are now most of Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Bessarabia, and part of Russia.

To go back retroactively and say they came from "Ukraine" is place a later geographical construction on something that didn't much exist back then, at least not as a formal, function geographic entity. It's like saying the Neanderthal lived in Munich. Well, yes and no.

Further, to say the Siegels came from Ukraine is to assign them an identity that is completely false. They were Jews from the Pale, and no different from other Jews in Poland or Lithuania, or Belorus, or wherever. Those geographical distinctions have as much utility as ZIP codes-- they meant nothing. The only three relevant identifiers were that they were Jews, they came from the Pale of Settlement, and they were Russian, i.e., within the Czar's empire. Everything else is misleading to some degree.

So, yeah, Bugsy Siegel's uncle might have been Tevye from Anatevka. But Bugsy himself was born not too far from the Brooklyn Bridge and to say he was "Ukrainian" is just plain nuts. Neither he nor his parents spoke Ukrainian, they didn't identify as Ukrainians, he knew nothing of Ukrainian culture (such as it was), etc. He's as Ukrainian as Jack Benny.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 3:04 PM | Report abuse

Yes, the bold stare, Brag. Precisely. Many native american, hispanic, and other cultures have that tradition.

It can make things culturally harder for deaf people to follow conversation without giving offense, although it can be done.

Dogs have two stares-- one is the hard stare, often under lowered brows, which is a threat. Another is the squeezed-eye "soft stare" that deemphasizes threat (and in our minds) conveys affection.

They also are much more confortable looking from the side, rather than head-on, to reduce the "challenge".

To this day, Wilbrodog would rather watch my sign at an angle rather than nose-to-nose, which took some getting used to.

My dog LOVES almond-eyed people because they always seem to have a soft gaze.

People actually have very similar staring styles. Our real smiles always reflexively drop our eyelids in a softened gaze.

Although, we do constrict our lower eyelids in anger and paranoia, which isn't a style you often see in other animals, unless it's automatically done as they lower their heads in threat.


Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 3:08 PM | Report abuse

I'm with Brag -- I can't look at someone (much) while arguing with them. I want to disagree, not fight. Looking at them invites too much reading of facial and body expression, which usually is over-reading these cues. Looking at them becomes a dominance thing -- if I can make my point while staring at you, then I can dominate you into submission to my point. Ineffective, if what I want is to logically persuade you and to earn your willing agreement.

Posted by: PlainTim | October 8, 2008 3:11 PM | Report abuse

No worries, Ivansmom. I speak to those who are interested, and do not worry about those who aren't interested.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 3:13 PM | Report abuse

Yes, Wilbrod, the threat stare *is* disconcerting, as you say...but a guy would have no reason to stare at another guy in just the normal run of events, even if the other guy was talking. The keys would be if you were showing in some way that you were paying attention, nodding or "uh-huh"-ing once in a while would be sufficient.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 3:14 PM | Report abuse

Makes sense, PlainTim.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Still catching up, but bringing one of South Philly's finest pizzas and a box of soft pretzels with me.

Jeez. I'd rather read about shoes than the a mulch fire!

Posted by: dbG | October 8, 2008 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, just saying side-by-side neutralizes that possibility completely, allowing more relaxation. But you're the mensch here.

BTW, a bea c is asking for bunker directions. If anybody has her e-mail, hail her over.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 3:17 PM | Report abuse

My wife often says she can "see the wheels turning" when I'm thinking deeply about something, especially some kind of creative thing or problem-solving thing. And I'm vaguely aware that I'm doing it, but have no idea what I'm looking at, at the time. And it is a different look than a day-dreaming look, or other kinds of contemplative looks (watching a woman walk down the street, etc.).

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 3:21 PM | Report abuse

As I said on the previous kit I was taught to look people in the eye (not an unwavering stare mind you - but a direct look), the reason was to convey honesty and respect.

I find peoples eyes/faces easy to read you can see the shift in their eyes, furrow of brow, and other facial expressions that can often say more than the words they are expressing.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 3:21 PM | Report abuse

re your 3:21 Mudge see my 3:21 - I say the same thing to my husband.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 3:23 PM | Report abuse

I've had several uncomfortable encounters with dangerous animals. In most cases, standing sideways would defuse the situation and the agressive animal would go off satisfied--that's when my legs would start shaking

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 3:27 PM | Report abuse

Precisely, Brag. It's universal animal body language grammar.

The front is where all the weapons are-- beaks, horns, teeth, front claws, etc.

Sounds scary though. At least none of them wanted you for dinner.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 3:32 PM | Report abuse

I find the subject of lying interesting. To this day, I can read my youngest son's face perfectly (he's now 22), when he's lying or he's the one who did "it" (whatever "it" may be). (He thinks he's a good liar, but he's awful, and I've told him that.) And yet my youngest daughter, now 25, has always been completely impenetrable (being a psycho helps). My middle daughter was a little easier to read when she was lying, and the oldest one fairly easy (tho she never lied much, nor ever had to).

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 3:43 PM | Report abuse

I dunno, evolutionary biology is fun, but culture plays a *huge* part in this. I have taken to heart the wise words of psychologists who advise women who want to have a serious conversation with a man, to do while facing in the same direction (like, if you're driving together someplace) or working alongside, and not face to face with the woman looking directly into the man's eyes. It works. I just can't account for it by 'threat stares' or something similar, since we are not, after all, dogs.

Posted by: Yoki | October 8, 2008 3:46 PM | Report abuse

I'm a terrible liar and, even worse, I react guiltily even when I'm not. I blame it on Catholic guilt, but it goes deeper than that.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Glad to see the Bunker's in proper shape. Although it's tough to bounce between Kits...

:-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 3:52 PM | Report abuse

I suspect it is because men are more comfortable talking side-by-side rather than face-ot-face, Yoki.

OK, two questions for the ladies, that I'm fascinated to know the answers to:

1) If a man is looking at you "speculatively" (but no, not leering at you, undressing you with his eyes, etc.), are you always aware of it? Does it bother you if done discreetly, and or from a distance?

2) If you are with your husband/signif. other someplace, and he looks speculatively at a woman walking down the street or across the room, let's say, are you always aware of it, sometimes aware of it, or seldom aware of it? (Again, assuming he's being discreet and not leering, making an ass of himself, etc., but simply...evaluating.)

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 3:52 PM | Report abuse

I posted this on the other boodle.

I wish I could see this exhibition in NYC.

Art Review
In Tribal Dresses, Life Stories, Intricate Labor and Female Bonding

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/arts/design/08iden.html?_r=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin


Are sticking here, or is it safe to go back?

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 8, 2008 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Mofo Troll is still over there growing desperate. Really kind of pathetic.

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 3:56 PM | Report abuse

It's much different from the Palinstorm, though -- that made me run screaming and stay away. This seems to mainly be one nasty individual who I bet feels very clever. Interesting, actually, the difference in viturperativeness (that's a word, right?) inspired by the head and the sub-head of the Republican ticket. And bad news for McCain -- no one seems to be passionate about him.

Posted by: bia | October 8, 2008 3:58 PM | Report abuse

For myself:

1) Yes, almost always aware of it. Mostly, I enjoy the attention provided it is as you describe, and not leering or creepy in any other way. And if it is not within the professional corridors of my office, where I consider it completely inappropriate.

2) Always aware of it. Doesn't bother me in the least. However, given Himself's self, it genuinely almost never happens. I think he'd say the same thing, if you asked him. In fact, I will ask him tonight and report back.

Posted by: Yoki | October 8, 2008 3:59 PM | Report abuse

You can't hide those almond eyes
And your smile makes my heart rate rise
I thought by now you'd realize
I love you for your nutty kibble eyes

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 4:01 PM | Report abuse


REPOST FROM OTHER BOODLE:
I am thinking now that context in conversation about rhetorical style is very important. That would, include boodle context, which is a public discourse string on the WWW

I happen to think that public conversation should include the style, gestures, clothing and other “rhetoric of personal presentation.” But, might not work well online, as do many serious and perhaps not-so-serious conversations.

As in this, posting this discourse to a place with a huge number of overehearers — a kind of eavesdropper — results in the silliness or stupidity factor of interpretation. Or, as we have seen, what looks like an ad hominem attack on posture, or ear size, or tie patterns.

I do believe, however, that knowing about how people perceive others — subconsciously, particularly — is a kind of literacy. I try to teach my students about this for all the important reasons about bigotry-unware but also because they tend to wear

Flip flips
Low rise pants
Skinny sweaters with deep scoop neck lines
Visible tattoos

and not think of the credibility gap they face when entering and establishing a career.

One of the reasons I study the personal presentation array of gestures, clothing, wearable art, voice control etc. is that I had the experience of feeling like an outsider — rural, MT v California, hayseed vs. haute, Catholic v. main line protestant, ethnic that was not as “low” as some but clearly not in the “best” leagues....

Learning the language, content, clothes, manners, etc., is a rather democratic move to walk the walk and enter some circles. We can behave like royalty and even the king should be polite to us, saying bromides that DO lubricate society like
Excuse me
I am sorry
Pardon me
Oh my, I did not know, please forgive me.....
Please
Thank you
Charmed, I am sure (Even if he thinks you are cowpie-equivalent)

Also, if we KNOW we are wont to make decisions based on the superficial, then as human beings and not animals we CAN MOVE BEYOND OUR BIOLOGIES. A fraction of our bigotry lies in our natures. We must first identify, then work to move beyond.

I think the psychological studies about the persistence of feeling “other” when seeing pictures of people of races and ethnicity OTHER than those of the viewer also teases out this human tendency to judge, quickly, based on visible information.

However, on the Ablog, much of this intentionality is lost.

Detail on McCain’s suit fit on his arms: He can afford a top drawer tailor; Cindy can perhaps lead him to sartorical fitted-ness. Perhaps because of the torture, he may truly want the slack in his sleeves. Good bless him on that! My reaction is that turtlenecks and woolen tights make we want to scream and rip the clothing off....we also have our Princess and the Pea moments, don’t we?

And, as BC says, unbutton the jacket for more ease in the torso and shoulders. SHORT people, particularly need this ease because of the ratios of arm length to other factors. More "drag" in the fabric drape when tailoring for shortness.

Finally, I am spiritually Italian and move and gesture and pivot and point and etc. in the classroom. I need loose clothing for that.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Hey, Mudge, a perk of growing older is NOT to be evaluated. Sometimes the visual interaction is distracting and irritating. I am finding a freedom in being relieved of this, as I age.

And, hey, I run with a young crowd at work, as in the classroom denizens are about 23. So, not really in that cultural and possible space. I see them check one another out almost CONSTANTLY.

Go back to the conversation about male gaze. Sometime, a gal just wants to do her stuff and not be in the foreground of someone else's evaluation, however admiring or good-willed.

Yoki, all my big convos with the children happen while gardening (they weed, sometimes sullenly) or in the car.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Mudge,

Question 1 - yes, if it is just moderate appreciation it does not bother me - as I have been not to appreciate men that I see.

Question 2 - if he is being discreet probably not aware - funny story we were out to Dinner one night at the table next to us were two female Doctors/Residents.

One an exotic beauty the other a very pretty brunette. As we left I commented on how beautiful I thought the exotic beauty was, he laughed as he said he had noticed the other woman. Both our comments were just acknowledgements that these women were strikingly beautiful.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 4:06 PM | Report abuse

I hope Boko comes over here and sees the wisdom in letting the gadfly burn itself out, unnoticed.

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Whew!

I'm catching up, but skipping the posts with handles I don't recognize. Isn't that the right way to do it?

I will say that Mo had me in the floor with her rejoiner to the latest troll.

Mudge, you found the paper towels and TP in the closet, didn't you? I went to Costco last week, so there should be plenty.

On the more serious side of the mortgage discussion, I worry about the renters who are displaced because their landlords defaulted. There needs to be special consideration to those who have paid rent but are evicted.

Posted by: slyness | October 8, 2008 4:16 PM | Report abuse

Just general FYI, Yom Kippur starts in a few hours (informally, at "sundown," but technically, when, on a reasonably clear evening, you can see three stars). The proper greeting is not to wish one a "happy" Yom Kippur, since it is both a somber event and the holiest day of the year, being a day of atonement (and fasting). Rather, the general greeting would be something along the lines of "May you have an easy fast."

The more specific greeting is "G'mar chatimah tovah, “May you be sealed for a good year in the Book of Life.” Variations are, "May you be written and sealed...," etc. In theory, one's destiny for the coming year is "written" in the Book of Life on Rosh Hashanah, the New Year, and then 10 days later on Yom Kippur, that destiny is then "sealed." So in essence, you've got 10 days to reflect, repent, etc., and try to get your sentence upgraded before it gets sealed for the year.

There are five things you are forbidden to do during Yom Kippur:
1) Eating and drinking (the fasting begins 30 minutes before sundown, and ends about an hour after the next day; people with health problems are exempted from fasting, and in fact are expressed told NOT to fast even if they want to).
2) Wearing leather shoes
3) Bathing/washing
4) Anointing oneself with perfumes or lotions
5) Sexual relations

So basically Jews have a lot of stuff to do on the afternoon right befor YK, in order to get ready, mainkly a shower and a big meal, and finding the Nike's. Ahem.

So ftb, a bea c, and Mrs. SciTim, may you have an easy fast. (Me, I'm diabetic, so no can do.)

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 4:19 PM | Report abuse

About politeness:
How does the saying go, politness is the ________ of kings?

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 4:20 PM | Report abuse

Just a coupla more pokes.
Can't leave Mo over there all by herself.

Posted by: Boko | October 8, 2008 4:20 PM | Report abuse

While this may be a token effort, it's a positive one:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/08/AR2008100801587.html

:-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 4:26 PM | Report abuse

G'mar chatimah tovah to SciFam, Mudge, a BEA c, and well, to all of us.

Any holiday that asks us to pause and take inventory -- examine our conscience -- is one I want to note as it passes. Indeed, celebrate in some way.

Here is the New Year's blessing said on January 6, the feast of the Ephiphany:

Every good gift comes from the Father of light.
May He grant you His grace and every blessing,
and keep you safe throughout the coming year.

R. Amen!

May He grant you unwavering faith,
constant hope, and love that endures to the end.

R. Amen!

May He order your days and work in His peace,
hear your every prayer,
and lead you to everlasting life and joy.

R. Amen!

Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

for me...
1) i usually totally oblivious if someone is checking me out - rarely happens... but i DO feel weird when i'm around a bunch of hispanic men and they check me out - always feels like they are undressing you or something - i mentioned it to my mother and she agrees... it must be an hispanic/male thing... they like STARE at you!

2) don't have a sig O but i work with all men and have done so for a long time... i always notice when they are checking out a chick... i think it's funny and i'll put my two cents in if i think she's hot or a "butter" - woman can do that you know!

Posted by: mo | October 8, 2008 4:33 PM | Report abuse

To follow up on the suit jacket comment, CP, I was reminded by a friend that a buttoned jacket denotes respect.

I always enter and exit with my jacket buttoned, and try keep it that way as much as possible when I'm not speaking.

On another note, I am somewhat familiar with The Gaze from both men and women.

Men and women have different ways of signaling attraction and/or intention, and heck, even of apprecaition and evaluation. And these change as the individual matures, particularly in the context and environment of the social encounters, naturally.

Women seem to be more subltle then men at any given age, though as CP points out, that's a relative thing.

I could go into it more, but I will say this: in my experience, a woman is more likely to tell what a man was wearing in any given situation than the reverse.

Perhaps clothes do make the man, as they say.

So, do shoes make the woman? That depends on the Appreciator, I suppose, but from my perspective, great shoes are great shoes.

bc

I'm reminded here of J. Geils' "First I Look at the Purse."

Posted by: bc | October 8, 2008 4:39 PM | Report abuse

Oh, one other interesting thing thing about YK and the whole atonement thing. In the Catholic Church, when one says a "mea culpa," etc., the atonement is specific to that individual; one confesses one's own sins, and asks for individual forgiveness, etc. But on YK, the atonement and confession are communal, on behalf of the entire group. There is a ritual "confession," during which one thumps onself on the chest with the fist...but this "confession" is not specific to that one person; it is on behalf of the group. So it doesn't matter if *you* performed a particular sin; someone in the group probably did, so that's enough, and so the ritual is on behalf of the group, not the individual.

I just always thought that was pretty interesting (and satisfactorily answered the nagging question, "Why should I have to confess/atone for a bunch of sins I never committed?")

Posted by: Curmudgeon | October 8, 2008 4:39 PM | Report abuse

G'mar chatimah tovah to all our jewish boodlers!

mudge - some nike's DO have leather ya know...

Posted by: mo | October 8, 2008 4:43 PM | Report abuse

G'mar chatimah tovah to all who participate.

Mudge...

1. Don't mind it at all if it's not leering and can handle it no matter what. That said, it's been a while but I do remember that far back. Hee hee. Also... to reiterate what Yoki said about office behavior. All bets are off in the workplace.

2. I've never seen Dr G "look" at another woman. He must be very good at it. We tend to have conversations like dmd's with her husband. I'm usually the one who points out a beautiful woman and he often shrugs. He thinks I'm beautiful and that's all that matters to me.

Posted by: TBG | October 8, 2008 4:45 PM | Report abuse

Some mentor or another once told me when listening to someone, watch their mouth. They will be watching your eyes.

Posted by: Jumper | October 8, 2008 4:46 PM | Report abuse

mudge - when i did my first confession, i always found it kinda weird - i mean, i'm a KID - what kinda sins you think i'm gonna have? lying to my mother about brushing my teeth before bed? for THAT i hafta say how many hail mary's? sheesh!

Posted by: mo | October 8, 2008 4:47 PM | Report abuse

I suppose lots of flipflogs and crocs are worn on YK.

Sorry, that was flippant.

Posted by: slyness | October 8, 2008 4:48 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, so, you beat your chest too? One time? This beating is nearly gone save for lent, if the priest remembers it.

We say this, with the fist pressing against the heart at each mention of 'fault':

Through my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault.

I believe this verse from 1 John 18 fits too,

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The Bhutanese Buddhist monk who lived in my neighborhood for ten years, kept asking me for a poster of this verse, to roll up and take home. I made him a banner of satin letters against moire taffeta. It hangs somewhere in a temple in Thimpu.


Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Merry Atonement Day from me too. My wife appreciates the day off. Set a place for Elijah in my name. Be sure to leave a cookie for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Have fun storming the castle.

(no disrespect for any actual religion was implied)

Posted by: yellojkt | October 8, 2008 4:49 PM | Report abuse

TBG, ahhh! You are beautiful.

I know way too many couples who met (and in many cases) married because they worked together to be too hard on looks in the workplace. Some are OK others inappropriate context is important.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Oh, boy, I got my DVD in the mail today
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/sep/22/uselections2008.republicans

It's called "Obsession - Radical Islam's War against the West"

I haven't seen it yet. I watched "Iron Man" instead. I'm such a sucker for the comic book superhero movies.

Posted by: Jumper | October 8, 2008 4:53 PM | Report abuse

Mo, I remember repeating the sames Sin when I was a kid because I couldn't think of anything else - then I learned how to sneak out of the line for confession and well didn't go back.

Posted by: dmd | October 8, 2008 4:56 PM | Report abuse

Mr. T has eyes for no one but me. Heeheeheehee

Seriously, he is a Southern gentleman who wouldn't be caught dead leering at a lady. Females who aren't ladies are not to his taste.

Posted by: slyness | October 8, 2008 5:15 PM | Report abuse

Looks safe over at the current Boodle. The guy with the weird zapper-thingy has been busy.

Posted by: Yoki | October 8, 2008 5:19 PM | Report abuse

CP - we beat our chests (lightly) with each mention of a communal sin. Your observance sounds much the same. The liturgy holds up pretty well, though it was set centuries ago.

We refrain from all which would give us personal pleasure, or distract us from repentance - though as Mudge hinted, we must give precedence to serious health issues.

This year Yom Kippur falls on our anniversary. Sigh.

Posted by: The ScienceSpouse | October 8, 2008 5:20 PM | Report abuse

I don't mind at all if Dear Husband has eyes for another woman. It's the other body parts that are off limits.

Posted by: The ScienceSpouse | October 8, 2008 5:23 PM | Report abuse

SciSpouse, a good fast to you and may the breaking of the fast celebrate creation.

Tis the same liturgy, borrowed and adapted from. I like the directness of a pass or dispensation for any health issue. This was (is) not communicated well in my tradition. My mom did not see that the fasts were not for her.....so good for this clear communication.

I see sunset is upon us. Take care.

Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 5:26 PM | Report abuse

To make sure I don't do a faux pas, I copied from Mudge's greeting:

G'mar chatimah tovah to all who participate.

and besties from me :o)

Posted by: Brag | October 8, 2008 5:30 PM | Report abuse

Did you see this from today's Style piece on Sarah Vowell?

Vowell loves Winthrop for writing what she calls "one of the most beautiful sentences in the English language": "We must delight in each other, make others' conditions our own, rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, our community as members of the same body."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/07/AR2008100703174_2.html


Remind you of anything?

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 8, 2008 5:46 PM | Report abuse

Maggie, O Day, two phrases that will make sense to you would be

the mystical body of Christ
communion of saints

Perhaps also, Augustine's

shining city (of God) on a hill (beat Reagan by a coupla years)

Wow. Thank you for that;'Specially nice to read on the occasion of Yom Kippur

Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 5:53 PM | Report abuse

Oh my, ScienceSpouse - Happy Anniversary to you and ScienceTim anyway. I guess that's the trouble with holidays that don't have a fixed date. BTW, if you figure out that fingerless mitt pattern, I know several other knitting Boodlers who would be very interested...

Maggie, I replied to your post in the other Boodle - that exhibit was in DC last year. Amazing.

Posted by: mostlylurkin' | October 8, 2008 5:59 PM | Report abuse

MostlylurkinG,
I'm so sorry I missed that exhibition; I may have to make a day trip to NYC to see it. (Who can afford to pay for a hotel room there these days?)

CP,
As Forster said, "Only connect."

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 8, 2008 6:07 PM | Report abuse

I may be hogging the boodle, but since no one else is here, I will continue.

Wow! Garrison Keillor has a way with words!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped1008keilloroct08,0,4545327.column

And,
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich-08-oct08,0,6522742.column

Doug Kmiec, a very conservative Catholic, is supporting Obama, and here are his reasons.

Posted by: Maggie O'D | October 8, 2008 6:26 PM | Report abuse

mo, when we were practicing for our first confession (2nd grade? 3rd?), one of my little (redheaded, pigtailed) classmates asked the nun what adultery was. The sister replied that it was looking at yourself in the bathtub.

The big day comes, we were all standing in line, suddenly we could hear the priest laughing. Then he opened the door and dragged my friend out from behind her curtain yelling for our teacher.

It was high school before we got the whole story.

Posted by: dbG | October 8, 2008 7:11 PM | Report abuse

That story helped brighten my day, dbG. Very funny.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 7:25 PM | Report abuse

Maggie O'D, it's excellent to see these reasons enumerated.

Posted by: Wilbrod | October 8, 2008 7:30 PM | Report abuse

Yes, relatively safe at the other Kit now... I think.

And G'mar chatimah tovah indeed, my friends who participate.

Happy Annivesary to the Sci's!!

The rest of the MBPH pictures are up, but I'll leave the link at the other Kit... ;-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | October 8, 2008 7:48 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Maggie, for that piece by Doug K. PAGING KIM. Read Maggie's link.

I had a brief but important interaction with Doug Kmiec when he was Dean of the Law School at Catholic University. The meeting was about seamless garment thinking, with one of the sub-messages that the social gospel -- the good news of justice and dignity NOW for the poor and oppressed -- had become in many influential Catholic circles only the gospel about pro-life activities.

I am impressed with his thoughtfulness. DK's book is making the rounds of my very mixed family. Current count is

McCain 3
Obama 5

in our family, we always note the CP Family of Origin cancel factor. At this point, the math says that Obama wins by a yield of two.

CPDots going Barry O'Bama in their inaugural voting year. I voted for Barry Commoner back in the day. Commoner (b 1917 and living still) ran on the Citizen's ticket in 1980 as a eco-sociliast. Shout out to KB.

Here are biologist Commoner's widely acknowledged four laws that ecology teaches (requires of) us:

Four Laws of Ecology

One of Commoner's lasting legacies is his four laws of ecology, as written in The Closing Circle in 1971. The four laws are:
1. Everything is Connected to Everything Else. There is one ecosphere for all living organisms and what affects one, affects all.
2. Everything Must Go Somewhere. There is no "waste" in nature and there is no “away” to which things can be thrown.
3. Nature Knows Best. Humankind has fashioned technology to improve upon nature, but such change in a natural system is, says Commoner, “likely to be detrimental to that system.”
4. There Is No Such Thing as a Free Lunch. Everything comes from something. There no such thing as spontaneous existence.

---
MAGGIE, law no.1 fits with your earlier post about our deep union of the fellowship of sentient beings.


Posted by: College Parkian | October 8, 2008 8:11 PM | Report abuse

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