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ClimateGate: Waiting for vegetarian overlord response

You may have read about the computer hackers who stole years of emails that show climate scientists being nasty and cranky (for example, "Next time I see Pat Michaels at a scientific meeting, I'll be tempted to beat the crap out of him") and, if you believe the global-warming-deniers, manipulating the climate data. This is going viral on the web, At RealClimate, some of those scientists respond:

More interesting is what is not contained in the emails. There is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research, no grand plan to 'get rid of the MWP', no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no 'marching orders' from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords. The truly paranoid will put this down to the hackers also being in on the plot though.

My initial glance at the news reports leads me to think that this is not a scandal so much as a window on real scientists working on a politicized issue. But I haven't read but a snippet of the emails.

More from RealClimate:'s important to remember that science doesn't work because people are polite at all times. Gravity isn't a useful theory because Newton was a nice person. QED isn't powerful because Feynman was respectful of other people around him. Science works because different groups go about trying to find the best approximations of the truth, and are generally very competitive about that.

[To digress: I love this comment someone posted at RealClimate: 'You say "Gravity isn't a useful theory because Newton was a nice person." I agree. But isn't it also true that Newtons antipathy towards Hooke and his use of his position in control of the Royal Society, ensured that the concept of an achromatic lens for a telescope - which would have competed with his mirror solution - had to wait until after his death before someone was brave enough to think the "impossible"?']

By Joel Achenbach  |  November 21, 2009; 10:10 AM ET
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Good thing then Newton died at the young age of 84, that vile bastard. Did they dance on his grave?

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | November 21, 2009 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Newton was a paranoid cranky genius with poor social skills. Not exactly news. Not the last person like that in science. That doesn't make the enterprise less valid, it means that any individual person's work has to be treated skeptically and tested against evidence. Newton was wrong on some things, right on other things. Science advanced.

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 10:52 AM | Report abuse

I don't know what to make of this:

Women racing in high heels, with shoes as the prize.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 21, 2009 10:54 AM | Report abuse

People keep looking for an infallible leader who will be right 100% of the time. Any sign of error is taken to be a sign that 0% of the formerly-trusted leader's insights can be trusted, because falsehood and error are hidden in there, somewhere. The solution is to think for yourself and to understand that errors happen. But nobody likes that solution, because it sounds like work.

People, and by this I mean most if not all people, can be very very stupid. Because I am a nice guy (and this may be an error on my part!), I choose to say only "can be stupid" not "are stupid."

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 10:57 AM | Report abuse

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to find that a group of intelligent, competitive, knowledgeable people who have advanced and developed proof to support a scientific theory, and who are routinely vilified on a personal as well as professional level by persons without their specialized knowledge, may have been less than kind (or even uncivil) when discussing their detractors amongst themselves. I'm also shocked that these scientists might not use propriety and civility in debating their own disagreements. This sort of bad behavior is simply unprecedented in any society, where all is done in the most appropriate way. Surely their disagreeable comments and lack of courtesy justify - nay, require - a complete rejection of their scientific work.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 21, 2009 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Stupidity is part of the human psyche. We can't escape it, even the geniuses among us. Sometimes stupidity can only be defined by the outcome (see Bill Belichick, this week). Human stupidity is what ensures that firefighters have job security.

The important thing is not to let personality blind us to the true results of a person's work. That's hard, sometimes impossible.

Posted by: slyness | November 21, 2009 11:06 AM | Report abuse

I think these e-mails don't reveal some kind of conspiracy as much as a community under siege. These scientists know that the slightest suggestion of uncertainty will be shamelessly exploited as a justification for rejecting the whole concept of climate change. (The Pinker Effect writ large.)

Therefore, it is natural that the scientists are going to be extremely careful about making any ambiguous or sloppy statements, and that this care might certainly, at times, be in conflict with the open nature of science.

And, of course, even Learned Scientists can be petty and indulge in gross generalizations of their opponents and rivals. This comes as no surprise to anyone who has done hard time with Scientists.

Even more fundamentally, though, these e-mails present an honest discussion of the problems inherent whenever one presents data. (I mean - whole lectures have been given on this topic.)

Graphs should tell a story, they should clearly convey a coherent narrative of some kind. This isn't always easy. The classic example is the Challenger explosion of 1986. The engineers had the data to demonstrate that seals were extremely likely to fail at low temperatures, but they *failed* to present this data in a clear way.

The exact same data, presented in a different way, tells a much more compelling story. One approach is to use the "trick" of extrapolating the likelihood of a failure as a function of temperature. The resulting plot clearly tells the horrifying implication of a cold weather launch. This isn't "deceit," it is effective data presentation.

In the same way, these discussions of how to present complicated temperature data reflect the earnest desire of the scientists to tell an accurate and compelling story. In essence, to prevent the mistakes of the Challenger engineers. And this, to me, is a very good thing.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | November 21, 2009 11:32 AM | Report abuse

Excellently put, RD. However, there's always a risk of overpoliticizing an issue to the point lay people are unable to evaluate the data without being unduly influenced by their political beliefs on other matters.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | November 21, 2009 11:54 AM | Report abuse

And, now, for something completely different . . . .

According to the Swedish newspapers this morning, the opera singer (among engaging in other related singing ventures) Elisabeth Söderström has died at the age of 82. I remember being in the audience at one of her concerts at the University of Michigan (long after I graduated). Her voice was indeed delectable.

All my morning errands were done in due order and this afternoon will be spent in my office catching up on stuff -- mainly (*sigh*) unbillable stuff.

Again . . . *sigh* . . .

Posted by: -ftb- | November 21, 2009 11:58 AM | Report abuse

"My initial glance at the news reports leads me to think that this is not a scandal so much as a window on real scientists working on a politicized issue. But I haven't read but a snippet of the emails."---seriously? You haven't read any of the material, jst glanced, but you think it is no scandal on this basis? Can I get a job at WAPO, are you married to Ana Marie Cox? Does anyone at the WAPO read the information they spout on? I suggest you read it and damning scandal you will have to try very hard to deny.

Posted by: accentmark | November 21, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

One thing is clear: accentmark (a) has a lot of free time on its hands; and (b) is not a scientist. Oops! I mean, two things are clear. I guess you can never again trust me to be factually accurate about anything I say. What a liberating feeling!

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Why do you want to believe these words are a scandal, accentmark?

The real scandal is the illegal hacking of those e-mails. Have you considered that illegally hacked e-mail can itself be manipulated?

From the article:

"University officials confirmed the data breach, which involves more than 1,000 e-mails and 3,000 documents, but said they could not say how many of the stolen items were authentic."

What's your angle? Have you read any of it?

"But I haven't read but a snippet of the emails," means he hasn't read ALL of it yet.

You expect him to have read 1,000 e-mails and 3,000 documents covering years of research and correspondence in what, 24 hours?

What planet ARE you from?

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | November 21, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

Just out of curiosity, how DOES one reliably differentiate between Canadians and suspicious persons?

Posted by: bobsewell | November 21, 2009 12:27 PM | Report abuse

Paging Mo -- look at this corseted number in stretch velvet in the Pyramid Collection

Off to rake leaves -- tick sprayed up -- and then to bike, perchance to fly.

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | November 21, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

I check in on William M. Connolley's site Stoat every so often.
He snarks quite openly on deniers and also other climatologists who make silly errors, etc. I'm sort of used to this sort of thing.

Please explain the Pinker Effect, RD

Posted by: Jumper1 | November 21, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

Canadians are more polite.

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Pinker Effect: the event of having been caught in an embarrassing and undeniable error, leading to the rejection of the speaker/writer/blogger/muffin-baker's authority to speak on any subject related to that on which he spoke/wrote/blogged/baked when he made the error, regardless of any prior successful track record or evidence furnished. In reference to Steven Pinker's take-down of Malcolm Gladwell's collection of essays,

Note that the Pinker Effect is limited to a particular topic, and does not require (though it does not forbid) a rejection of all work by the afflicted person. Not at first, anyway.

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

For them that're amused by such things, the aforementioned Chris Moore will be at Politics & Prose in February.

Posted by: bobsewell | November 21, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of Chris Moore, I'm wondering if Mo (who I happen to know enjoys a little Krung Thep [Bangkok] fiction every now & then) has read any of Christopher G. Moore's Vincent Calvino novels. I haven't, but am intrigued.

Posted by: bobsewell | November 21, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

As for the substance of the Kit, much ado about nothing. Evolution has formed us into a species that either does or doesn't change the environment in ways that make survival in our current form less likely, and which bitterly attacks its scientists for sharing the uncomfortable news either way.

C'est la vie. Darwin wouldn't have it any other way.

Posted by: bobsewell | November 21, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse

This boodle's not breathing. Medic! Medic!

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | November 21, 2009 2:24 PM | Report abuse

I have a feeling that we're going to be hearing the word "trick" used out-of-context by skeptics for the foreseeable future, no matter how many times they are corrected on the usage -- exactly the same way that creationists spout "it's just a theory" in relation to evolution.

This was an interesting AP approach to the debate, giving a group of statisticians data, without telling them what it related to, and asking them to look for patterns:

I wonder what will happen if (when) the '98 temperature record is broken? Will the skeptics ignore it and keep saying the world has been cooling since '98? (This may already be happening, since some data indicates 2005 was hotter.) Or will they drop the "cooling" trope for a few years, then eventually use the new record year as the baseline for "the world has been cooling since 20__? Rinse and repeat.

Incidentall, Scotty, good call.

Posted by: rashomon | November 21, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

Bob, I, too, had great difficulty distinguishing between Canadians and suspicious persons, at least until I realized there WAS no diference; they are one and the same thing. Have you paid attention to how they behave and the things they do? They have their own money, but they're perfectly comfortable using ours, too, when it suits their nefarious purposes. Most of the speak something very close to English, but you'll note some of them often have a bit of strange accent, and a few of them actually sound, I dunno, French, or something remarkably like it. They eat food like us, but sometimes it's a little different. And have you noticed that whenever they develop a really good actor or comedian, the first thing they do is sneak him or her into this country to steal a job away from an American actor or comedian.

And don't even get me started on their sports.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Dan Balz has a story on the front page that says there's a big difference of opinion about Afghanistan. Who knew?

Even stranger a good bit of it appears to be partisan.

Go figure.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 3:18 PM | Report abuse

You made me laugh, 'mudge.

It has been another lovely day here. I have nothing worthwhile to say about the Kit. Try to contain your astonishment.

I hope to be having dinner out this evening, if I can round up the gang.

Have a great afternoon, Boodle.

Posted by: Yoki | November 21, 2009 3:36 PM | Report abuse

(Bob! Psssst. Actual casual, but there's one of them right now. I'll see if I can find out what she's up to.)

Hey, Yoki. W'sup?

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 3:39 PM | Report abuse

*Whistles nonchalantly while refusing to meet 'mudge's eye*

Posted by: Yoki | November 21, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

*waving semaphore flags @ 'Mudge to inform him of Yoki's unusually sudden shyness*

Posted by: Scottynuke | November 21, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

In a big upset Yoki's alma mater looks like they are going to beat mine. Not done yet but it's going to be difficult. And the Vanier Cup will be on my school's turf...

Canadians do suspicious thing like taking an American classic like Oyster Rockefeller and substituting the Pernod with Noilly Prat vermouth.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | November 21, 2009 4:10 PM | Report abuse

But my Gaels looked *fabulous* all season. Imagine my schizoid cheering if the Gaels play the Dinos in the Cup.

Posted by: Yoki | November 21, 2009 4:14 PM | Report abuse

(I dunno, Bob. I think maybe she's too quick for me.)

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 4:15 PM | Report abuse

Look out. I think she's got a flashlight.

Posted by: rashomon | November 21, 2009 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Mmmm, Oysters Rockefeller . . . . That isn't the Rockefeller who lived in Arkansas, was it? I *know* it isn't the one who "hails from" West Virginia, *that's* fer shur! Oysters sounds like one of those bazillionaire names, like "Poppi" Bush, or sumpin.

Well, look, folks, Michigan died under Ohio State today, their season is over and I'm waiting for the Pistons to get outta last place (this hasn't happened in a loooooong time), the Red Wings are okay, but not really gunning the engine. . . . I was, however, shocked (yes, *shocked*) to see that the WaPo has the Lions beating whichever team they are playing tomorrow (What? You expect me to pay attention???).

Yoki, have a lovely dinner. I hope to do the same, actually. And, of course, may we all.

Toodley boodley.

Posted by: -ftb- | November 21, 2009 4:27 PM | Report abuse

Vegetarian chili in the stock pot. Cranberry-Peach chutney in the sauce-pan, almost ready to be chilled in preparation for a dining event later in the week. The ScienceSpouse and I shall dine on sushi tonight, as the vegetarian ScienceKids are both going to be out all night.

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 5:15 PM | Report abuse

You dare not dine on sushi in front of them, SciTim?

Enjoy your Saturday night date.

Er, what kind of sushi is kosher, anyway? No shellfish for sure,that I know.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | November 21, 2009 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Sushi from any fish that has scales would be kosher. There's no preparation limitations on fish. And part of the reason I embrace kashrut is that I can't bear the thought of eating molluscs or crustaceans. Well, I liked escargot, the one time that I had it, but the loss of escargot and catfish from my diet has not been a crippling debilitation. I can cope.

It's not that I dare not dine on it in front of them, but the restaurants that serve sushi tend to have little to interest vegetarians, and they need to eat, too.

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 5:47 PM | Report abuse

Jumper - The "Pinker Effect" is a made-up term I derived from the previous kit. SciTim defined the intended meaning perfectly.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | November 21, 2009 6:17 PM | Report abuse

Here's the other thing about the reaction to these e-mails that that induces a classic facepalm response. It is, as is often the case for conspiracy minded folks, they ignore what *isn't* there. If there really was a conspiracy don't you think there would be a bit more to go on than one ambiguous e-mail?

Posted by: RD_Padouk | November 21, 2009 6:25 PM | Report abuse

In a really good conspiracy, RD, you never can tell.

I finally got into my kitchen today to do some things that have been impatiently awaiting me. Two pounds of rolled butter is cut up and freezing. A large pan of applesauce is simmering. Eggs are boiled. A cabinet,a pantry shelf and a refrigerator shelf are rearranged and some VERY old past-due items discarded.

And finally, I mixed the fruit for my annual Christmas cake. This year will be a little different. I had "fresh" raisins, golden raisins, dried cherries and tiny dried medjool dates from our mediterranean deli. A good quantity of each are chopped, along with a small bit of crystallized sliced ginger (same source), and mixed with a good quantity of dark rum, Amontillado sherry, and Marsala. It'll sit for a few weeks, I'll use half of it, and the rest will sit until next year. The cherries and dates were so good it was hard to leave any for the mix,and I'm still snacking on the ginger.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 21, 2009 6:48 PM | Report abuse

I love ginger. (The spice, not the hair color. Although I have met a few spicy redheads in my day. But I digress.)

Anyway. Ever see the Altoids ginger candies? They are more than just curiously strong. They are freakishly so.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | November 21, 2009 7:06 PM | Report abuse

How much Amontillado? A glass, a bottle -- perhaps, a cask?

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 21, 2009 7:07 PM | Report abuse

This cartoonist reads the Boodle --

Posted by: nellie4 | November 21, 2009 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Altoids ginger candies are dangerous.

ScienceTim, there is really only about a cup of Amontillado, give or take. However, I bought that particular sherry purposefully because the other night I read "The Cask of Amontillado" to the Boy for a bedtime story.

I probably shouldn't read him Poe right before bed. The night before, I read "Hopfrog" and he came into our room before midnight.

"Hopfrog" is a great story and very similar to a semi-true medieval legend, I think one of the French Charleses, during the Plantaganet period in England. Except, of course, nobody hung the actual King from a hook and set him on fire.

I started the Boy on Poe several years ago. We alternate, occasionally, with a nice true-translation version of The Brothers Grimm. I'm probably providing him material for years of therapy. Right now he's found his own scary bedtime reading. On his own he started "Lord of the Flies". I wasn't about to discourage him but I'm not eager to read it again.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 21, 2009 7:22 PM | Report abuse

This phrase is from Kathleen Parker's column. You think maybe she reads it too?

" matter how faux the foe."

Posted by: rashomon | November 21, 2009 7:23 PM | Report abuse

RD, I make a gingerbread which has ground ginger, candied or crystallized ginger, and some grated ginger in it. I also throw extra ginger in the pumpkin pies. So far nobody's complained.

In our Super Asian market you can buy powdered ginger, like Koolaid without the sugar, to make instead of tea or chocolate. Heady.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 21, 2009 7:26 PM | Report abuse

I plan to make a couple of Christmas cakes this week. Rum is the agent in the recipe I use. Lots and lots of rum. First to macerate the fruit, and then to soak the baked product.

My grandmother would be shocked at how late I am to this exercise. She always had her cakes curing by the end of September. Which is one reason mine are not of the same quality.

Posted by: Yoki | November 21, 2009 7:34 PM | Report abuse

From the Non Sequitar cartoon Nellie linked to: "We'll go to any lengths to feed our pun addiction."

Truer words were never cartooned.

Ivansmom, what is "rolled butter"?

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 7:57 PM | Report abuse

Fresh dairy butter, Mudge, rolled up. Big roll. Of butter. Ingredients: Cream. Salt. [Yeah, salted butter. I can live with it.] Tasty.

The chicken is roasted, the potatoes are mashed and the gravy made, the fruit salad chopped, and all being consumed. That's a day's work, not counting feeding the animals and doing the dishes. Tonight I slipped a little cream cheese into the potatoes. It makes up for the skim milk instead of cream, which went into the gravy. So far nobody's complained.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 21, 2009 8:13 PM | Report abuse

I'm impressed, Yoki. I soak the fruit, but the baked product gets baked & iced a day or two before eating, with no further mellowing. Maybe someday I'll graduate to a "real" Christmas cake. I don't know. Ivansdad is very leery of this one as it is, what with the long fruit mixing (especially the half that sometimes sits for a year). I'm afraid the spectacle of a soaking cake would make him very nervous.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 21, 2009 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Sitting in a Philadelphia Starbucks (yes! They have them here!) with dbG enjoying a decaf latte and catching up. We had a great Burmese dinner in Chinatown (Myanmartown?) after dropping Daughter and her friends off at their concert.

Now we just have to hang out in town until Cobra Starship finishes playing.

Posted by: -TBG- | November 21, 2009 8:45 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: -TBG- | November 21, 2009 8:52 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: -TBG- | November 21, 2009 8:54 PM | Report abuse

Ivansmom, will you come and cook for me? Yum!

We went to the farmers market this morning. They are having two special markets, one today and one next Saturday. Normally the market closes at the end of October, since it's held outside, but because everybody asked...There weren't as many vendors as usual but it was worth the trip. I bought organic sweet potatoes and white potatoes, broccoli, and onions.

Plans for Thanksgiving are coming along nicely. My brother likes to fry a turkey, so my sister-in-law called to say that she will buy it so he can marinate it Wednesday. I'll get celery, green beans, and cheese the first of the week. Now, I have to remember to take the corn I cut off the cob back in July out of the freezer. MY SIL makes fabulous pecan and pumpkin pies; I only have to supply the whipped cream. Elderdottir requested mac and cheese; the nephew wants mashed potatoes but will get the potato/sweet potato casserole.

Everyone will be fat and happy. I'll have to make us walk my 2.5 mile route afterwards.

Posted by: slyness | November 21, 2009 8:55 PM | Report abuse

You sure you got the decaf, TBG? Gesundheit.

Ivansmom, why did you cut up and freeze the butter? I'm sure it's some sort of efficiency measure, but it's not clear to me. Not that it has to be - just curious!

I noted that "faux foe" in the Kathleen Parker column, which I read last night and probably should have linked to. Here it is:

And yay! A small step:

Posted by: seasea1 | November 21, 2009 9:03 PM | Report abuse

Am watching the great old Albert Finney movie "Tom Jones," which came out a mere 46 years ago, in the summer on 1963, the summer between my junior and senior year of high school. What a great flick. And for reasons I have never understood, the thing disappeared--never was in the rotation of movies on TV and then cable, was never offered on a VHS or DVD, to my knowledge. Don't know whatever happened to it, but here it is! And wonderful as ever.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 9:17 PM | Report abuse

From Amazon:
My library also has copies.

I didn't remember that it won Best Picture, or director (Tony Richardson). I've seen bits, but never the whole thing.

I watched Face in the Crowd the other day - a kguy recommendation. Enjoyed it - very relevant to media issues today (it was made in 1957, I think). And now I understand why Keith Olbermann refers to Glenn Beck as Lonesome Rhodes.

Posted by: seasea1 | November 21, 2009 9:31 PM | Report abuse

Oh, seasea! You must watch "Tom Jones" all the way through, front to back.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Seasea, the farmer's market I go to closes in October. The last week I'm there, I buy butter, cut and freeze it, then thaw as needed and use it all winter. Normally, you understand, I'm happy with Target store brand butter, but this is fresh and a good price.

I do the same with the market fresh-roasted green chilies. This year I also bought a few pounds of local raised and processed ground beef to divide and freeze. I no longer trust the nationally-processed stuff, and we don't use much, so it is an experiment.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 21, 2009 9:41 PM | Report abuse

OK, Tom Jones is on my library list.

Thanks, Ivansmom, that makes sense. I've got to find a farmers market to go to. The close ones are at inconvenient times for me, and the others are far away. But the fresh, local produce would be worth it.

Posted by: seasea1 | November 21, 2009 9:46 PM | Report abuse

Oh wow, Tom Jones! The eating scene! I think I saw that as a senior in high school, Mudge, but some years after you did. Great movie.

I read recently that a group of farmers here in the high country have formed a cooperative to sell meat and poultry, all raised organically and without hormones, antibiotics, etc. They will deliver to Charlotte for a fee, but I think I would just buy when I'm here. I like being a locavore, and I adore growing my own vegetables.

Posted by: slyness | November 21, 2009 10:00 PM | Report abuse

One of the best movies ever made is now coming on the Turner network right after "Tom Jones." It is "Tunes of Glory," starring Alex Guiness. kguy, you MUST know that one.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 21, 2009 10:11 PM | Report abuse

While drooling over the thought of Ivansmom's fresh butter, (which I am not supposed to even think about, let along eat) I began to wonder: surely science can make "butter flavor" for all the margarine out there in the whole wide world. Should we still be making margarine that tastes "funny?" Just so butter remains "real butter?"

Posted by: nellie4 | November 21, 2009 10:27 PM | Report abuse

For the love of God, Science Tim!

Hope you enjoyed the sushi with SciSpouse.

TBG - I think it was a wise move hanging with dbG and keeping your distance from that Cobra Starship show. It is with some sheepishness that I say I've seen them myself, as part of a festival. No desire to repeat that experience whatsoever. Oy.

About the hacked/stolen emails -- even very smart, intelligent and technically savvy folks like climate scientists seem to not remember that unencrypted email that traverses the Internet is not secure. Period.

And that storage of such information/communications in one location makes a tempting target for those who would seek to undermine them. And likely provide plenty of fodder for those folks who would repurpose whatever they find to further their ends.

Gravity still does indeed work even though Newton wrote snarky stuff to his colleagues about Leibnitz as Ike and Gottfried had their public spat about the calculus. It probably didn't help that Ike drank mercury neat, possibly because NyQuil hadn't been invented yet.



Posted by: -bc- | November 21, 2009 11:52 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 3:05 AM | Report abuse

You're morning hipster video link:

The National playing a song that was in Nick and Norah's Infinite Playlist.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 7:13 AM | Report abuse

SCC" Yes, you are the morning hipster link. It does not belong to you; It becomes you.

This one from the Noisettes is very pretty too.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 7:19 AM | Report abuse

Neal Stephenson's massive 3,000 plus page System Of The World trilogy deals extensively with the feud in and amongst the Royal Society including Newton, Liebnitz, Hooke and others. It's full of all sorts of gossipy insider scientific stuff wrapped around the invention of the modern currency system.

I've only read the first volume, but one of my life's ambitions (now that I've seen 'Hungry Heart' live) is to read the whole thing.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 7:23 AM | Report abuse

And if you like your pop stars Canadian and too young to drive:

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 8:24 AM | Report abuse

In the 'you never know where life is going to take you' list of things that happen, it seems I will be going to Kiev. For son 1's wedding. On December 19.

I planned to travel to many places in this life, but not a single solitary one was Kiev. So does anyone know anything about Kiev and what one must see and do while there?

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 8:30 AM | Report abuse

I hear the chicken's nice.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 8:31 AM | Report abuse

Congratulatins to #1 dr. What a great trip that will be.

Yello, on behalf of all Canadians, I am so sorry, as if Celine was not bad enough.

Posted by: dmd3 | November 22, 2009 8:42 AM | Report abuse

DR -- blessings! And oh the knitting of a special scarf for that trip.

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | November 22, 2009 8:48 AM | Report abuse

Good morning boodle! Sure am glad my breakfast was eaten some time before seeing that Canadian pop tart video (what is the little boy equivalent of a pop tart?) but it still made me a bit queasy.

Time to start my first true weekend deep cleaning day in the Hip Urban Loft. Sigh, it was nice when Mr. F was here and all I had to do was enjoy the spa like atmosphere. The thrill is a bit diminished after vacuuming up enough cat hair to stuff a pillow.

Posted by: frostbitten1 | November 22, 2009 8:57 AM | Report abuse

It is CqP. Yarn bought. Pattern for mother of the bride is set. Its a fast knit. 2 days tops. The bride's pattern is going to be to harder to find.

dmd, No one is going to believe Canadians are 'nice' if we keep doing this to them.

Thank you for the good wishes. I will pass it on to them both.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 8:58 AM | Report abuse

SCC Congratulations

Posted by: dmd3 | November 22, 2009 9:01 AM | Report abuse

Kiev. Cool!

Posted by: bobsewell | November 22, 2009 9:39 AM | Report abuse

Congrats to all involved, dr!!! *confetti*

Thanksgiving's going to be a bit complicated for us this year, starting Wednesday with a 6-hour drive (under normal conditions) to join about nine family members to gather at a rented house. NukeSpouse and I have to come up with some sort of Wed. dinner that we can pre-cook and that will travel well.

We've decided on chili.

Hope that house airs out easily.

*off-to-a-morning-full-of-shopping-and-an-afternoon-full-o-both-football-and-cooking Grover waves* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | November 22, 2009 9:41 AM | Report abuse

yello, Stephenson's Baroque Cycle is one of the most amazing pieces of fiction I've ever read. Admittedly, the first 400 pages of "Quicksilver" at Trinity College (with Newton, Hooke, etc.) can be a bit of a slog with all the historical asides, but once all the stuff with Jack and Eliza kicks in, it really picks up steam (especially when Jack picks up his nickname).

The second book, "The Confusion" is my favorite, and is a maniacally funny 'science, swords 'n sails' swashbuckler -- even with Stephenson's patentable scientific, political, and historical digressions.

I read all three in hardcover when they came out (but loaned #s 2 & 3 out and never got them back), and I'm holding off on reading "Anathem" until I have a chance to relax and appreciate it.


Posted by: -bc- | November 22, 2009 9:50 AM | Report abuse

bc! Snuke!

Drive by Hi.

Posted by: russianthistle | November 22, 2009 9:59 AM | Report abuse

bc, I've got your vol. #1; will return it to you.

'Morning, Boodle. An interesesting day of football to look forward to.

FYI, Chicken Kiev was *not* inventied in Kiev, or any other place in Russia. It was created by a French chef named Appert (the guy who basically invented canning for Napolean, circa 1809). Appert called it "Chicken Supreme." It got its name around the turn of the century (the 1899-1901 one) in New York City hotels who wanted to attract Russian emigre customers, so they took Appert's Chicken Supreme and called it Chicken Kiev. Voila!

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Congratulations dr! You'll have to tell us all about Kiev as I, for one, know pretty much nothing about it, altho' I assume warm clothing will be needed.

Posted by: badsneakers | November 22, 2009 10:12 AM | Report abuse

Kidding aside, that sounds like a great trip and a wonderful occasion to be celebrating. I think a coworker of mine might have gone to the University of Kiev. I will ask if he has any travel tips.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

You guys have been coasting on Neil Young and the Guess Who for a long time. Time to up the game and stop the flow of treacle across the border. If you can arrange a private concert for me with Tegan and Sara, all will be forgiven.

The Tim Hortons shirt is a nice touch.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Just don't shatter my illusions about Belgian waffles, Turkish delight or French fries.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 11:19 AM | Report abuse

I don't know if anyone saw Stephanopoulos this morning, but it was an absolute love fest. Robert Reich, George Will and Liz Cheney agreed on many issues and sought to emphasize their common ground on others. (I don't really know the politics of Walter Isaanberg, but he was cooing also). I don't for a second think that they would always be quite so agreeable, but it was a refreshing break from the "shout down your tablemates" type of show that David Gregory seems to be running lately.

Posted by: Awal | November 22, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Yello, Belgian waffles are Belgian-- and so are French fries-- er, "freedom fries."

I can't say anything about Turkish delight.

There, Mudge's off the stick.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | November 22, 2009 11:31 AM | Report abuse

I appreciate it yj. Kidding is completely acceptable. It takes the goin' to Winnipeg joke to a new level.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 11:32 AM | Report abuse

Well, Yello lots of great Canadian music, but not always appreciated south of the border, i.e. The Tragically Hip. One of my current favs, Serena Ryder.

Posted by: dmd3 | November 22, 2009 12:23 PM | Report abuse

That's my point, dmd. Youse guys keep the good stuff for yourself. You send us Allanis Morisette but keep Melanie Doane a secret.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Anathem sits staring at me. It is not impatient or annoyed. Yet.

Meanwhile, I finished the freshman-y "On Writing Well" by Zinsser. I entered a used book store near my house I had not been to before. Amid the usual tons of escapist doggeral I found Homer H. Hickam's first foray into fiction "Back to the Moon." ('99) It got decent nods by WaPo Book World, NYT, Booklist, Library Journal, etc. so it ought to be decent.

Dank and chilly here. The dank is the worse. Fire in the firebox still not warming this place up. More wood, I guess.

Posted by: Jumper1 | November 22, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

About all I know about Kiev is that it's in the Ukraine. Sounds like an interesting trip...although December seems like it might be a bit on the cold side...but you're Canadian, so maybe no difference! Congrats to #1 son.

My kid gave me the Neal Stephenson trilogy last Christmas. I still have not cracked it open.

Posted by: seasea1 | November 22, 2009 12:39 PM | Report abuse

I've got the entire Baroque Cycle in hardcover (as well as Anathem), but I'm just afraid I'd hurt myself if I were reading one of them in bed and fell asleep in the middle of the chapter and have the book fall on me. That would be tough to explain to the 911 dispatcher.

I bought mass paperbacks of the second and third parts of Quicksilver which were great. There were rumors that The Confusion would be issued in two parts, but it either never happened or they have gone out of print already.

Somewhere in my house there is also a trade paperback edition of Quicksilver because I wouldn't let my son read the signed copy (the Georgia Tech Bookstore had a few extra, who'da thunk?). I may have to do the same for the same for the last two and just force myself to read them so that I can't be mocked for this literary failing of mine.

And nobody touches my autographed copies of Diamond Age or Cryptonomicon. God, I miss Bibelot.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Awai, I did catch the Roundtable but didn't listen much. Besides, the ads were obnoxious -- especially the one about taxing "juices and sodas". Okay, folks, you go get your HFCS-laden drinks, but don't make *me* pay for your obesity and diabetes. . . . I'm a real label reader, and if anything has high fructose corn syrup in it, I don't buy it. I've never been a big fan of soda (diet or otherwise) since I've been a putative adult (so to speak). Juices generally have more sugar than actual juice in them. Apple cider (pure apple, nothing added) this time of year is good enough for me.

My desire to leave the country again for an extended period of time (like the rest of my life) is on the increase, even though I like Obama and think he's doing a fine job, especially considering what he inherited. I just can't abide the rest of it.

Is there something in a spray can which can be used on narcissists (like Raid) which can make them disappear? Like, forever? Just *imagine* all the room in this country once they're all gone . . . .

Time to make a huge pot of red lentils with potatoes, sweet potatoes, red onions, eggplant and a couple of Fuji apples, all cooking in a boxful of low-sodium chicken broth. Veggie broth works, too. I add a lot of thyme, some caraway seeds, oregano and ginger. Maybe I'll stick in some purple cauliflower, too.

The mind does indeed boggle when it comes to food, eh?

Posted by: -ftb- | November 22, 2009 12:58 PM | Report abuse

When I get big, I need one of these:

Posted by: -jack- | November 22, 2009 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Yeah jack, bring high-fashion footwear into it:

"To some, the X6 M may seem a design achievement on par with Alexander McQueen’s 10-inch stiletto heels: Shocking, titillating — but still a cruel male fantasy of dubious utility."

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 1:17 PM | Report abuse

"...fantasy of dubious utility..." is a most appropriate descriptor. In any case, that vehicle is one of those where if one has the money to buy it, one would need to have the money to fix it. I'll bet it doesn't have a dipstick. the only way I'll ever own one of those requires a lottery sized windfall.

Given the tenor of the last footwear discussion, I think I'll pass. I have laundry to do.

Posted by: -jack- | November 22, 2009 1:43 PM | Report abuse

I hope that the 'Skins can muster enough on both sides of the ball to make Cowboy steak.

Posted by: -jack- | November 22, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

The vegetarian overlords are out of the house right now. One is walking the dog and taking a Klingon-related computer game to a rabbi. The other is working on a collaborative novel.

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 22, 2009 1:50 PM | Report abuse

Kiev: I will get information from my Ukrainian-American colleague who has been there several times. One thing that I have gleaned second-hand: bring your own toilet-paper. It is not considered a basic service to supply it in public rest rooms.

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 22, 2009 1:53 PM | Report abuse

dr, what wonderful news, congratulations! And lucky lucky you to have the chance to see Kiev. So so cool.

You won't have any trouble finding a Ukrainian-Canadian to give you the low-down, will you?

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

Odd how something can go on right in front of my ears and I don't perceive anything unusual. Good article.

YouTube has many examples.

Posted by: Jumper1 | November 22, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Jumper, just think of The Queen of the Night's aria in Die Zauberflote. When sopranos pull off that D above C6, the sound is utterly inhuman and unearthly.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 2:32 PM | Report abuse

I wouldn't know a D, nor a C6, in that register, even if one bit me on the bottom. Onward and upward, as it were. Check this our, and say it ain't so, joe.

Posted by: -jack- | November 22, 2009 2:40 PM | Report abuse

Terrorists could drive a truckload of dynamite through the opera-sized hole in my brain, Yoki. I'm listening to it now, though.

Posted by: Jumper1 | November 22, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

I think of The Magic Flute more as a magnificent comic book than an opera, Jumper.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 3:03 PM | Report abuse

Jumper, that's great. I myself have a football-sized hole in my brain of much the same dimensions. Speaking of which, Ivansdad says today he is not a Friend of the Boodle. Something about the Cowboys playing the Redskins.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 22, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

dr, a trip to Kiev for a wedding sounds like a real adventure. The only thing I know about the city is from hearing missionaries who work with homeless children there; it seems they have a serious problem with children being abandoned on the streets and having to survive on their own. Sad, sad, sad. I sent money.

The Elderdottir has a good friend from high school who emigrated from that area as a young teenager. To look at her, you'd think she's a ditzy blonde, but she's really a savvy and sensible young lady who is a joy to have around. If you'd like, I'll ask her what's to do and see.

Posted by: slyness | November 22, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

Oh, Yoki, I *luv* the Queen of the Night aria (actually, both of them -- one when she's mad and one when she's channeling a terrorist). A voice for that takes stamina! When I'm in a big of a foul mood (doesn't happen all that often) I tend to like the mad scene aria from Lucia di Lamermoor. But Queen of the Night will certainly do, as well.

Posted by: -ftb- | November 22, 2009 3:33 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 3:54 PM | Report abuse

If it makes you feel any better at least the Redskins beat the Broncos last week. But go ahead and bang your head.

Posted by: Windy3 | November 22, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse

The Ravens managed to kick five field goals. And lose.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Jeez. Chiefs beat the Steelers in OT, 27-24. Whoda thunk?

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

And, well, for anyone who's interested . . . the Lions are losing.


Posted by: -ftb- | November 22, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the *very last second* Detroit beat Cleveland!!!

*pretending I'm dancing because the Lions are now 2-8* Hey -- better than last year, eh?

Posted by: -ftb- | November 22, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse

Well, Ivansdad is relieved but not really happy. Apparently the Cowboys barely made it. You notice I wasn't watching with him. I did point out that the Cowboys should be embarrassed to lose to the Redskins (before the game ended) but that didn't really seem to improve Ivansdad's mood.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 22, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

The niftiest web site I have heard of in many a day: the Museum of Animal Perspectives

Posted by: ScienceTim | November 22, 2009 5:18 PM | Report abuse

At what point do the Washington fans revolt?

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 5:35 PM | Report abuse

Ah geez, ScienceTim, I was on my way to getting something accomplished this afternoon and you had to go and post that link.

Looking at the Kit title again reminds me, I trust my vegetarian overlords will allow chocolate. If not, there will be some serious contract re-negotiation.

Posted by: Ivansmom | November 22, 2009 5:38 PM | Report abuse

We've been revolted all season, Yoki.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Daughter and I are back from our quick trip to Philly ("Five states in three hours!"). Had a great time last night and this morning with dbG. I'm not sure if I should worry that he teenage girls didn't think it was weird to meet my "Internet friend."

We listened to the 'Skins game on Sirius radio on the way home. When Washington missed the last field goal, I told Daughter "OK.. now Dallas will march down the field, score a touchdown and win the game." She laughed and said I didn't know that for sure.

And I responded, "Of course I know for sure."

Posted by: -TBG- | November 22, 2009 6:14 PM | Report abuse

Five states? Which one did I miss between Philly and Coulton, Virginia? There's Merlin, Dupont and Potholesylvania. Even counting Ginny, that's only four.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Oh hey... forgot to share this story from last night with the Boodle..

While dbG and I were waiting in my car near the concert venue for Daughter and her friends, the patrons of another nearby club (called Shampoo) were leaving in dribs and drabs and heading to their cars. They were dressed strangely, to say the least. Men in long black coats, some in tuxes. Women in high, high heels and furs. I'd put the age range from, say, 25 to 65 years old.

So this morning, I tried to find out what kind of concert or event they were coming from and this is what I found...

Posted by: -TBG- | November 22, 2009 6:58 PM | Report abuse

Ahhh, yello. The best-kept secret of the Northeast Corridor is I-295 in New Jersey.

Posted by: -TBG- | November 22, 2009 7:00 PM | Report abuse

I tell you, there's nothing like a good Redskins' football game!

Posted by: bobsewell | November 22, 2009 7:19 PM | Report abuse

Slyness, that would be lovely.

I live in an area rich in people of Ukrainian heritage and was born in an area just as rich, so when she gets here, we will be able to surround her with food of Ukrainian origin without even trying. Borscht, perogy and vereniki are second nature here. ButI don't know any recent immigrants. I need all the help I can get.

In other important news, Saskatchewan is looking good, leading 27-11 but Calgary is threatening to score. Yoki, tell them to cut that out, would you.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 7:22 PM | Report abuse

As hockey games go 7-6 is a pretty high score.

The Als beat the BC Lions 56-18 this afternoon. It would be nice to have the local team in the Grey Cup as well but the Roughriders semm to have a different look on it.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | November 22, 2009 7:26 PM | Report abuse

But SD, the local team IS in the Grey Cup.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 7:35 PM | Report abuse

To explain, Riders win. Must go make toast to yet another occasion for merry toasting and convivial joy.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 7:38 PM | Report abuse

Congrats on every front, dr! How does it feel to have a champion team? I mean... really... what does it feel like?

Posted by: -TBG- | November 22, 2009 7:40 PM | Report abuse

I think I used convivial wrong. Oh well.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 7:41 PM | Report abuse

I will tell you next week, when we beat the pants off Montreal.

Unless Montreal beats Saskatchewan as easily as they did earlier this year. Ugg. Its not going to be easy. We were hoping BC would win the eastern final.

Please don't ask why The BC Lions were playing in the eastern final.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 7:44 PM | Report abuse

The Als have been in the Grey Cup 6 times since 2000. They won a grand total of one of those 6 games. I hope this 7th times is a winner but I have lowered expectation.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | November 22, 2009 7:54 PM | Report abuse

Kiev comes across as a city that's persisted in a region of calamities. Weren't the steppes almost devoid of people at various times, due to bubonic plague? Mongols? Stalin? Hitler?

On the climate side, I assume authors have already been contracted to write the secret history of the global warming conspiracy.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | November 22, 2009 8:08 PM | Report abuse

Maybe I need stronger reading glasses. I couldn't figure out why dr was talking about bc's loins.

Posted by: -TBG- | November 22, 2009 8:19 PM | Report abuse

Congratulations again, dr! This is your day. Not to mention that the Stamps haven't won against the Roughriders in, oh, decades. And the Saskatchewan fans totally rawk.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 8:36 PM | Report abuse

The Loins beat the Brownies this afternoon TBG. Grown men against little girls, it was unfair.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | November 22, 2009 8:37 PM | Report abuse

Olive oil, of course, TBG. That's why bc's loins are the buzz of the town, that and that skimpy gladiator skirt.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | November 22, 2009 8:37 PM | Report abuse

Kinda disappointed there are no pictures of the Debauchery Ball posted. It sounds like Eyes Wide Shut meets Gino's Cheesesteak.

I frequently use 295 to bypass the first four exits of the Joisey Turnpike, but I've gone to Philly that way. Live and learn.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 8:40 PM | Report abuse

SCC: never gone that way. Too much merlot with the BigMembershipStore steaks. Seared on my stovetop grille and then broiled in the oven. Delicious. I wanted to go all out since this probably the last home cooked meal for a week.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 22, 2009 8:49 PM | Report abuse

I'm creeped out by the freshly posted Post story by Stephanie McCrummen,"In Ethiopia, farmland is hot property" and a similar, longer story in today's New York Times Sunday Magazine.

There's plenty of precedent for displacing local residents for new agriculture. The Romans must have done as much. Scottish Highlands. Rhodesia. Banana republics. Maybe the huge expansion of Brazilian agriculture makes for a less nasty precedent. In Brazil's case, those vast new soybean fields came about in part because the soils turned out not to be terribly exotic or hard to make productive. No more difficult than North Carolina, in fact.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | November 22, 2009 8:52 PM | Report abuse

Like I said, TBG, please don't ask. hehehe bc's loins hehehe. That went right over my head. But then, many things do.

It has been a good day. May this cheer continue to next week and fair Calgary. As anyone who has ever been to Grey Cup can attest, the best parties sport green and white.

Posted by: --dr-- | November 22, 2009 9:01 PM | Report abuse

There is more than Neil Young or Anne Murray to Canadian music.
I like the young Coeur de Pirate. A photographer used one of her song to put music this video.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | November 22, 2009 9:26 PM | Report abuse

No masks that I recall, yello, but lots of heels/platforms so high that the occupant experienced difficulty walking. Course, that may have been the sidewalks. A couple of fur coats and some very enthusiastic security guys.

Next time you're here, try the Burmese restaurant TBG took me to. Fabulous, just inside the perimeter dragons of Chinatown.

Had a great time with TBG, Daughter of TBG and her friends! It would be great if DoTBG decided on a Philly college.

On the minus side, I now have severe Iphone envy. So much better than my BlackBerry.

Posted by: -dbG- | November 22, 2009 9:34 PM | Report abuse

Jaysus God! Me too, dbG. An Iphone! My kingdom for an Iphone!

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 10:13 PM | Report abuse

My very funny Shakespearean-referenced comment (an Iphone! My Kingdom for an Iphone!) comment got held because "You have submitted too many comments"

But I haven't, have I?

Does that mean that Joel has a little switch that allows my friends yello and 'mudge and bobsewell to post serially, but I'm cut off? I'm hurt, reely I am.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 10:19 PM | Report abuse

Whoa, I'm hangin' with my family for little while and next thing I know, people are calling for my loins. My loins?

[How are we doing 'em, anyway? A little olive oil? A dry rub? What? Hey, they deserve a good prep; it's *not* fast food, ya know.]

Some guys, they call for their heads on a platter, me -- ah, well, I suppose it could be worse. I don't think I could get a whole apple in my mouth anyway.

Speaking of misnamed foods, a well-travelled friend of mine mentioned that she'd seen something called "Chicken Maryland" or "Maryland Chicken", which curiously involves pineapple applied to said chicken.

Now, they grow a lot of stuff on the Eastern Shore - including chickens - but *pineapple?* I don't think so.

dr, congrats on the RRs making it to the Cup game, and congrats as well to the Al fans out there.


Posted by: -bc- | November 22, 2009 10:24 PM | Report abuse

I would add that Chicken Kiev doesn't have avacado or mango...


Posted by: -bc- | November 22, 2009 10:29 PM | Report abuse

Noooo. It just has garlic/parsley butter. All melty.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 10:34 PM | Report abuse

Nope, no pineapple. From Wiki:

"Chicken Maryland or Maryland Chicken is a historic dish associated with the U.S. state of Maryland. In its home base, it consists of fried chicken served with a cream gravy.[1]

"Many Maryland families have their own heirloom recipes for this dish. A commercial version is available from the English's restaurant chain on Maryland's eastern shore (the center of Maryland's chicken-related agro-industry.

"The primary factor which distinguishes Maryland fried chicken from other Southern fried chicken is that rather than cooking the chicken in several inches of oil or shortening, the chicken is pan-fried in a (traditionally cast-iron) skillet and covered tightly after the initial browning so that the chicken steams as well as frying.

"Milk or cream is then added to the pan juices to create a white cream gravy, another Maryland characteristic.

"Escoffier had a recipe for "Chicken a la Maryland" in his landmark cookbook "Ma Cuisine", but there is no canonical version. Often the chicken is marinated in a buttermilk marinade. Breading recipes vary in use of egg or buttermilk and the seasoning of the flour; the seasoning of the cream gravy also varies widely, although gravy is a signature aspect of the dish.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 10:36 PM | Report abuse

Hey, Yoki.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 10:38 PM | Report abuse

Hey, love.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 10:41 PM | Report abuse

Oh! I have a "Maryland" fried chicken recipe which takes at least 48 hours, good planning, and I never knew it was Maryland-based, until now.

Butcher 9 chickens into 8 pieces each.

Cover them in Kosher salt (refrigerated for at least 8 hours, and max 12). Rinse well. Dry on paper towels.

Immerse in a mixture of buttermilk, onion, fresh-ground pepper and cayenne, for no less than 24 hours and no more than 30.

Double-dredge (30 minutes between dredgings) and put them skin-side up on wax paper.

Deep fry for 8 minutes (wings) and 10 minutes (thighs) and 9 minutes (whole breasts). Drain on paper towels.

Serve after the resting period.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 10:49 PM | Report abuse

I've seen plenty of variations of Maryland Chicken. It's basically just breaded chicken, sometimes fried, sometimes baked (sometimes both), frequently with a cream or mushroom gravy. No pineapples.

There's going to be trouble if someone starts messing with Irish Coffee.

Posted by: rashomon | November 22, 2009 10:49 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 10:52 PM | Report abuse


A version of fried chicken makes sense for Maryland Chicken -- I'm still perplexed as to how some folks thought it could be augmented with pineapple. Perhaps that somehow makes it more exotic in places far away from Salisbury.

Just another example of how some folks take shocking - just shocking, I say - liberties with cookbook recipes.


Posted by: -bc- | November 22, 2009 11:16 PM | Report abuse

Next thing you know, someone will put pineapple on ham or pizza!

Posted by: seasea1 | November 22, 2009 11:22 PM | Report abuse

Hmmm... That is odd about the consecutive comment, Yoki. I can't string too many together too quickly, but I can definitely have at least two back-to-back pretty much immediately. Maybe it's a Homeland Security issue!

Posted by: bobsewell | November 22, 2009 11:24 PM | Report abuse

9 chickens, Yoki? That isn't a recipe, that's a franchise.

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 11:30 PM | Report abuse

YES!! Iggles win!

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 22, 2009 11:32 PM | Report abuse

Interesting. One of the few recipes that my Mom passed along (only because we all helped her make it at one time or another; she didn't have a recipe box, nor notes...most of the stuff she cooked we ate. the alternative was going to bed without dinner) was something she called Tennessee fried chicken: dredge chicken pieces in seasoned flour until thoroughly coated, place into a baking dish (hers was an aluminum brownie pan), dot liberally with butter, and bake at 425 until the coating on the chicken browns. the milk/butter kind of curdles, and is supposed to be spooned over rice. Chicken, peas and rice. Our family's comfort food. Maryland chicken sounds similar, but fried in a skillet.

Posted by: -jack- | November 22, 2009 11:40 PM | Report abuse

That must be it, bob. Us'all Canadian's have talked too much about taking over America with fried chicken.

Posted by: Yoki | November 22, 2009 11:48 PM | Report abuse

from Danny's Juke Joint (Rickie Lee Jones, 1979):

And if she don't know your name
She knows what you got
From Your matzo balls
To the chicken-in-the-pot

Posted by: -jack- | November 23, 2009 12:14 AM | Report abuse

Curmudgeon's quote on Maryland chicken reminds me of my grandmother's baked "fried" chicken. My grandparents did live in Baltimore for a number of years before moving north.

Our corner of Florida produced pineapple in the past. There's been a good deal of breeding since then, so that the pineapple top you get from Dole/Costa Rica produces a less spiny plant and sweeter "fruit" than would have been the case in the past.

The weird pineapple "fruit" is a "fleshy syncarp of 100-200 berry-like fr[uits], bracts & axis, topped with a tuft of lvs." according to Mabberley's Plant-Book, a brick-shaped 1021-paged reference of first resort.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | November 23, 2009 2:11 AM | Report abuse

"Kiev comes across as a city that's persisted in a legion of catamites"

Tiny, tiny fonts will be my downfall...

Posted by: Jumper1 | November 23, 2009 3:45 AM | Report abuse

What a funny line. I never quite paid enough attention to that song.

This is still one of my favorite Rickie Lee Jones songs:

"Well, he tried to be Standard.
He tried to be Mobile"

Posted by: yellojkt | November 23, 2009 5:37 AM | Report abuse

I have no problem with ham and/or pineapple or ham on pizza, seasea. I would question as to whether it should be called Maryland Pizza, though.

A nice touch at the end of the Eagles/Bears game -- Philly QB Donovan McNabb put his arm around Bears QB Jake Cutler and delivered what appeared to me to be a long quiet pep talk into his ear. Cutler did not have a good night on the gridiron. McNabb heard the hometown Chitown fans booing their QB, and clearly felt for his opposite number. McNabb's been there, and had some useful words for his younger counterpart. A very classy move, IMO.

And it was nice to see the guys embrace with both arms before they parted to face the media.


Posted by: -bc- | November 23, 2009 6:23 AM | Report abuse

Best Ricky Lee Jones (with Dr. John):

Posted by: Curmudgeon5 | November 23, 2009 6:30 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, all, and happy Monday! Hey Cassandra!

Mudge, that song's a heck of a way to start a holiday week.

Too wet to walk, I'll have to ride the exercycle for exercise.

As I planned, last week's cleaning to get ready for church ladies will make this week's preparations for Thanksgiving easier. Even better, the napkins are already ironed. Life is good!

Posted by: slyness | November 23, 2009 7:02 AM | Report abuse

Good morning boodle. The Vikings had a fine day yesterday, in spite of me watching them.

The toddler frostson was quite a fan of Ricky Lee Jones back in the day. His first full sentence was spoken as her Chuck E's in Love played on the car radio. He clapped his hand over my mouth and said "Mommy, please don't sing."

Have a good Monday everyone.

Posted by: frostbitten1 | November 23, 2009 7:19 AM | Report abuse


My son is still telling me not to sing. And my wife. And most everybody I ever worked with.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 23, 2009 7:31 AM | Report abuse

Good morning everyone another great day here, completely spoiled this November. I am guessing everyone is preparing for the big celebration Thursday - my envy is building.

I have become oddly fascinated watching the live webcam of the Olympic flame on the route across the country, just went over the Confederation Bridge from PEI to New Brunswick, gorgeous cloudless day there, not having seen the bridge before it was interesting.

Not unlike watching paint dry but for some reason I keep watching. Not sure if it is viewable outside Canada, but the link if anyone is interested.

Posted by: dmd3 | November 23, 2009 9:00 AM | Report abuse

And now, your Monday Morning *headdesk* Moment:


*reminding-myself-I-only-have-to-get-through-today-and-tomorrow Grover waves* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | November 23, 2009 9:10 AM | Report abuse

Pundit Idol is down to the final two, and they both are (shockingly) decent essays.

Kevin Huffman's is a little telegraphed and it's clear he hasn't drunk (drank, drunken, drinked? Grammar cops help me here) the Kool-Ade yet. They'll get to him.

Zeba Khan's started out a little too personal for me, but it had some real reporting in it as well.

Posted by: yellojkt | November 23, 2009 9:21 AM | Report abuse

True fact:

When all of my children were infants, I rocked them to sleep by singing Bohemian Rhapsody to them a capella, natch.

If they can sleep through that, they can sleep through anything.

Had a wonderful argument with my oldest this past weekend over which was the best Queen album, "News of the World," or "Night at the Opera." She prefers with "Night." I didn't argue too much, realizing that I'd tipped the scales against myself 18 years ago, despite my singing voice.

Had a couple of good long car rides with Scottynuke where we sang ELO's "Out of the Blue" and Dire Straits' "Making Movies" from beginning to end. [Sorry to call ya out, sir. We might have to step it up to JP's "British Steel" or "Unleashed in the East" one of these days, buddy. I'll let you take all of those Halford high notes, though.]


Posted by: -bc- | November 23, 2009 9:52 AM | Report abuse

yello, the trouble with Zeba is I don't especially want my pundits doing much reporting (per se). I want my reporters doing the reporting (they are trained to do it, theoretically, while pundits usually are not, unless they are also ex- or current reporters). Kind of like I don't want electricians doing my plumbing, pschiatrists doing brain surgery, dentists doing plastic surgery, etc. Of the original 10 candidates, only one had reasonable journalism cred; thus 9 are not especially equipped to do "reporting," IMHO.

I say this realizing that some people consider a bit of reporting to be a good thing in a pundit. I think it just tends to continue blurring the lines in journalism (which I admit are already smeared around like PB&J on the face of a three-year-old, already), so that many lay people don't know what the hell they are reading. But then again, many people don't know what the hell they are reading or watching on cable news anyway, so maybe I'm fussing for nothing. (I.e., we're all doomed.)

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | November 23, 2009 9:56 AM | Report abuse

bc, and I thought I was a bit crazy with the Nutcracker. You win. Your Daddy Grammy is in the mail.

Posted by: russianthistle | November 23, 2009 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Hmm. That's a toughie, bc. The problem is both albums contain such iconic hits. I lean towards Night just because Bohemian Rhapsody is so epic that the use of the word "epic" has become, like, mandatory.

The thing is, nearly every Queen album has at least one outstanding song. And they have held up extremely well, I believe.

"Queen's Greatest Hits" has remained on my daughter's MP3 player ever since we bought it for her. Not even Miley Cyrus has been able to match this achievement.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | November 23, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

“There was an old man
From Peru, whose lim’ricks all
Looked like haiku. He

Said with a laugh 'I
Cut them in half, the pay is
Much better for two.'”

-somewhere on the internets

Posted by: Jumper1 | November 23, 2009 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Now this is something I'm going to have to think about for a while:

Who knew there was debate about the Gettysburg Address? Amazing what the march of time does to events and documents and leaders.

Posted by: slyness | November 23, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

I'd vote for Queen's "Night...". The coolest thing about their music was that they didn't use synthesizers.

Posted by: -jack- | November 23, 2009 10:35 AM | Report abuse

"...Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the fandango..." is almost as familiar as the line "...I'm singing in the rain...". Well, at least to me.

Posted by: -jack- | November 23, 2009 10:37 AM | Report abuse

I would simply say that seeing Queen with Freddy Mercury back in the day were the best rock concerts I have ever seen, bar none. And you're right RD, that music has held up amazingly well.

Jack - my oldest also told me she'd seen "A Clockwork Orange" recently. I replied that I can't hear "Singin' in the Rain" without thinking of that movie, and she (a fan of musicals), said that she had the same issue. We shared a collective shudder.

I don't think she's seen Reservoir Dogs yet, so I suppose she can shudder when she hears "Stuck in the Middle," on it's own merits.

And Jack, I don't think Queen used synths until "Jazz" or "Hot Space," I forget which. Oh, wait - maybe it was the "Flash Gordon" soundtrack...

Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me.


Posted by: -bc- | November 23, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

Mudge, it all comes down, once again, to how one defines the term "pundit." I understand completely your point about blurring reporting and opinion. And I understand your earlier point that what you want from a pundit is mostly good writing and a little entertainment. That's a perfectly defensible position.

The problem, for me at least, is that without bringing new information to the table a pundit can easily become someone who simply regurgitates what everyone else is saying.

And I find punditry of this kind exhausting. Given the ravenous need to fill bandwidth everyone seems to be working overtime to find some new angle. Every day someone introduces some new unprovable conjecture which quickly morphs into conventional wisdom. These memes then spreads like ice-nine until some other conjecture is brought up.

This isn't, to me, a useful process. In fact, it makes me kinda cranky.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | November 23, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

And r_t, I very muchly appreciate the Daddy Grammy, thank you!

And I didn't even have to resort to my "Bicycle Built for Two" lullaby done as an imitation of the HAL 9000 whilst his memory modules are being removed.

My mind is going... I can *feel* it.


Posted by: -bc- | November 23, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Morning all
I went to the ravens/colts game with my brother yseterday,how f****** dissapointed I was.first and goal at the one and had to settle for a field goal..eeeesh!!

Anyway he told me he called his buddy at NASA meteorolgy lab to discuss the climate change data they have and he was told,he could meet him for lunch someday.He asked 3 times and got the same response.he thinks they are listening on the line so no classified secrets slip out? or the data is wrong in some way,or maybe his buddy just wanted a free lunch.

well off to work for me.

Have a great day everyone!!!

Posted by: greenwithenvy | November 23, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Apparently the Vegetarian Overloards haven't yet reported in. In any event, there appears to be a new kit.

You mean the lyrics aren't "Scare a moose, scare a moose, do the fandango..."?

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | November 23, 2009 11:42 AM | Report abuse

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