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Are Americans total numbskulls?

God help us. Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy? It must be tricky being Barack Obama, winding down the U.S. presence in volatile Iraq, trying to keep Afghanistan from degenerating, pondering war with Iran, even as, according to the latest bulletin, one in five Americans thinks he is a Muslim.

Why not just believe he's an alien from outer space? Or a Manchurian Candidate, programmed by, say, the Chinese to bring America to ruin?

Crazy times.

It's also dismaying that so many Americans are opposed to the mosque near Ground Zero. In America you can worship wherever you want, regardless of religious belief. We protect religious minorities here. This isn't merely the law: It's a core value. This goes back to the Pilgrims, I seem to recall. The backers of the mosques are the good guys, the ones who preach tolerance. There should be no hedging on this at all from American leaders: If we can't allow a mosque in lower Manhattan we might as well close shop for good and turn out the lights.

A lot of times, polls are deceiving, through vague wording, or perhaps by not giving people enough information to start with. For example, the question about the mosque may not have been framed in a way that made clear that this would not be a place to advance the cause of radical Islam, jihad, death-to-the-West, etc. But it's hard to see how the Obama question could be confusing. Obama is a Christian, and famously attended a Christian church led by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whom no one would take for a Muslim.

What this shows is that disinformation remains powerful and infectious, and that large elements of the country distrust the official story about anything. People assume, as the starting point on any issue, that they're being lied to. Maybe they want to believe that because it offers an explanation, of sorts, for why the world isn't the way we think it ought to be.

By Joel Achenbach  |  August 19, 2010; 8:49 AM ET
 
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Comments

Yes.

Posted by: teddymzuri | August 19, 2010 9:33 AM | Report abuse

One in five Americans is down right stupid.

Posted by: teddymzuri | August 19, 2010 9:34 AM | Report abuse

Unfortunately, there is a pretty signifcant cohort out there that are pretty xenophobic just under the skin. They hate or at least mistrust almost anyone who doesn't comply with their perceived beliefs in "right" and "wrong". Even Billy Graham once referred to the muslim faith as that "evil religion". The wingnut politicans and talking heads tap into these insecurities and allow them to fester by not clearly stating what is or is not the truth. This isn't really new - Catholics were persecuted and suppressed in many parts of the Colonies back in the day. Tolerance made some gains by the time of the Revolution, but Jews were discriminated against in may ways into the 1950's at least. Various ethic immigrants suffered much the same fate for 2 or 3 generations until they became fully assimilated.

Posted by: ebtnut | August 19, 2010 9:43 AM | Report abuse

One in five vastly underestimates the incidence of ignorance in America.

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 9:49 AM | Report abuse

I always wonder about these types of polls since I know how easy it would be to catch me out: 1 out of 5 times cowhand was unable to determine which shirt buttons go in which holes.

I mean you call up 5 people, one of them laughs like a heathen and says "why of course Obama is a Muslim and was engineered into the Presidency as part of a Communist/Muslim/Fascist/Socialist plot to remove apple pie from menus across this great nation", well lo and behold you've got yourself a headline.

Pointedly, it wasn't clear to me how the question was asked: "Do you believe President Obama is a Muslim?" is a very different question than "What religion does President Obama state he belongs to?"

Ah well.

Posted by: cowhand214 | August 19, 2010 9:52 AM | Report abuse

I don't think that Americans are dumb as much as unable, or unwilling, to think clearly. And there are a lot of reasons for this.

Many people have never been taught the most fundamental principles of logical thought. The whole distinction between a premise and a derived conclusion is lost on many.

Lots of folks think that all statements are independent matters of opinion without any logical linkage between them. They ignore contradictions because they have a hard time even understanding what a contradiction is.

Something as simple as if A equals B, and B equals C, then A *must* equal C is not recognized as the mathematical fact it is. It's just my opinion as an elitist over-educated smartypants.

Further, I fear, this kind of thinking is exacerbated by a certain type of religious thought that rejects critical analysis as being Satanic for it can lead one to Doubt.

And we can't ignore the common fascination with conspiracies and hidden truths as a way of explaining why the universe isn't behaving the way we expect.

Finally, of course, there is simply a lot of intellectual laziness out there. It's a lot of work, sometimes, to think things through and people are busy. So it's much easier to simply go with one's "gut" reaction whether it makes sense or not. Or, worse, just let professional pundits do the thinking and blindly accept their conclusions.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 9:52 AM | Report abuse

Two out of five eligible voters in America do not vote, effectively doubling the incidence of ignorance.

Those who do vote re-elected George W. Bush and Richard Nixon, effectively raising the incidence of ignorance in America to over 50%.

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 10:07 AM | Report abuse

The notion that we are always being lied too is especially alluring to many. Sometimes it is even flaunted as a form of intellectual sophistication. And people of all philosophical outlooks do this. The difference is what entities are assessed to be unreliable.

Big Corporations, The Government, Religious Leaders, Secular leaders, The Liberal Press, Fox News, are all held with disdain by people who believe themselves too clever to be taken in my the Lies they Tell. Cynicism is fashionable, fun, empowering, and a whole lot easier than thinking things through.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Heck fire! Mudged while on the subject of the new kit. So here's what I'd just posted on the last one . . .
____

MsJS, that was exactly my point. Why is the President's religion a question on a poll, and then splashed all over the "front pages" to fan the hatred. Disgusting.

yello, I'd been meaning to tell you that your photos from Dachau moved me a great deal, the memorial sculpture particularly. (And I've enjoyed your entire gallery as it's been revealed. :))
_____

[left in the message for yello, too.]

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Government Mind Control Rays force me to make typos.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Amen Joel, also RD and Teddymzuri. I feel that a lot of this stupidity is also just plain racism. The right wing isn't stupid, they play to people's most base feelings. It stinks! I'd say more but I gotta go to work.

Posted by: badsneakers | August 19, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse

100% of polls are utterly worthless.

Posted by: sm4269a | August 19, 2010 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Once again I have come in late enough that RD has done the heavy lifting for me. I heartily endorse what he said. When all statements of fact are opinion, and all opinions are equal, and one chooses not to believe a given authority or information source, then whatever opinion one holds must be right.

Interestingly, this "factual relativism", if you will, is often the province of people who believe themselves to hold out strong notions of Right and Wrong, and for whom "moral relativism" is thus an Evil. They don't recognize the cognitive dissonances involved. Perhaps this is why they are so angry: their thinking doesn't work and makes their heads hurt.

Posted by: Ivansmom | August 19, 2010 10:16 AM | Report abuse

No, you've got it backwards. People assume, as the starting point, that they're NOT being lied to. And that is the problem.

I e-mail with a friend of the family who is a retired teacher and an educated woman. But alas, she swallows, hook, line and sinker, every canned right wing e-mail and every Fox commentary that comes her way, on the theory that if they are "published" or "on TV", they must be true.

When I started sending her fact-check rebuttals of the canned e-mails, she was genuinely shocked. "Wow, this really isn't what the President wrote in his book!" "Wow, and the governor of Hawaii is a Republican?" "I really need to learn how to use this Google thing."

Posted by: Itzajob | August 19, 2010 10:26 AM | Report abuse

talitha, we agree.

So I wonder why Mr. A is focusing on why some poll respondents misguessed the President's religion rather than on why the question was in a poll in the first place.

When you think about it, a question like that is a bit like an exam. Teachers and professors can regularly point to factual questions on exams that at least 20% of the class got wrong, even though the way to correct answer was presented in the course material.

I'm guessing all of us got at least one or two exam questions wrong that many of our classmates also muffed. Does that make us 'dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?'

Posted by: MsJS | August 19, 2010 10:30 AM | Report abuse

While I agree in principle that one out of five Americans is a moron, it's more complicated than that. It's one third of self-identified Conservatives who believe it. This isn't just "any" random cohort of people; it is a very specific cohort that holds a number of other beliefs, many of them similiarly associated one way or another, as part of a general pattern of beliefs.

For instance, in this particular cohort, there are NO muslims themselves. There are no flaming liberals, or mild liberals, or even modestly pinkish Democrats and/or centrists. There are almost no Democrats of any kind, and only a small percentage of independents. So this cohort isn't just any random sampling or cross-section.

Also, it is well within anyone's right as well as within anyone's purview to dislike Obama, or even hate the guy, if you feel you must. It is certainly all right to disagree with him and to disagree with his political philosophy, policies, administration, etc. Happens all the time.

But hell's bells, during the 60s and 70s, there were millions of people who hated, loathed and despised either Johnson or Nixon or both. There were millions who disliked Reagan intensely, and millions who loathed Carter, or Bush-2, for that matter. But in not one of those cases was there ANYONE, much less an 18-percent cohort, who thought Nixon was a member of the Santeria Cult, or a Martian, or that Reagan was secretly born in Budapest and that his Illinois birth certificate was forged. No one ever thought Carter's piety was a false front and that he secretly worshipped Shinto.

And in none of those cases was there a substantial media presence that includes the equivalents of Limbaugh, Beck, Bachman, Coulter, Maltin, O'Reilly, Hannity, et al., who were all loudly pushing the bizarre notion that Lyndon Johnson was a closet Rastafarian.

The problem with this 18-percent cohort isn't that it is stupid. It is that it has its own TV network and a dozen major pundits and performers feeding its psychosis. Thsi particular cohort didn't arise out of a vacuum, and it doesn't represent some spontaneous or inate body of thought that caught on door-to-door. This particular cohort has been "built," nurtured, and fed.

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 10:32 AM | Report abuse

"Are Americans total numbskulls?"

At least 20% are.

My dad may be one of them. As he ages, his rants have become increasingly xenophobic. He goes off on tirades about the efforts of extreme Muslims to infiltrate and radicalize the mosques of American Muslims.

My son, in astoundingly diverse HoCo, has friends who are Muslim and some who are Hindu. He is embarrassed by my dad and fears he may someday say something offensive in front of his friends.

And while my dad doesn't buy into the whole cloth birther conspiracies, he does parrot a lot of the wingnut talking points that boil down to "What is Obama hiding?" not understanding that no amount of real information will refute or dissuade the hardcore, so it is a fool's errand to even try.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

Well said, Cholly.

Posted by: Ivansmom | August 19, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

God loves us so much more than we can imagine through Him that died for all, Jesus Christ.

Morning, friends. Wonderful kit, JA. People would rather believe a lie than the truth, and that train of thought has been around for awhile now. Scripture says that man's heart is not good. A lot of wisdom in that simple statement.

President Obama has a tough job made even tougher by people that dislike him intensely because of the color of his skin, because that's where a lot of that stuff comes from. Some of us still suffer from that cancer -- racism.

Have a lovely day, folks. The school countdown is coming to the big day. We're practicing this week by going to bed early, and we're going to do some subtraction later on.

Love to all.

Posted by: cmyth4u | August 19, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Bears & reefer... cool!

"BC police: Bears surrounded pot fields"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081900106.html?hpid=moreheadlines

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/08/18/15062571.html

Posted by: bobsewell | August 19, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

talitha,
Thanks. The reason we need to keep Dachau and Auschwitz and other monuments to ignorance and hatred is so that we Never Forget.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 10:43 AM | Report abuse

yello, as someone with family members who perished in those camps, I never will.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 10:47 AM | Report abuse

Remember the flap over Jeremiah Wright and the Obamas? The current ruckus proves that certain cohorts of Americans not only are idiots, they can't remember squat.

Posted by: slyness | August 19, 2010 10:48 AM | Report abuse

Email provides a wondrous new way for senior citizens to spread rumors. I assume there's a White House Correspondence Coordinator for Wacky Emails. An unenviable job.

The rumormongers know all about Snopes, which is a conspiracy.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | August 19, 2010 10:48 AM | Report abuse

And it continues to be, chollynickabocka (hereinafter "cnb"). You and RDP and others are right.

You will note, perhaps, that all the discussion about where Obama was born did not extend to McCain, who was actually born in Panama, which IIRC is not a State (along with the District of Columbia).

*sigh*

Posted by: ftb3 | August 19, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

87% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Jeez, I really hate when a couple of grizzly bears rampage through my pot field, the break into my house, eat seven pounds of cream cheese, and crank up the volume on my "Cream" album and stare at my lava lamp all night, giggling.

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

4 out of 5 dentists recommend sugarless gum to their patients that chew gum.

A quick search of the commenters who believe that he is a Muslim indicates to me that many are farmers. They seem to all parrot that fowl assertion about his resemblance to a duck. Never a drake, though.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 11:00 AM | Report abuse

So does this mean that at least 20% of Americans believe that the electorate is sufficiently tolerant to elect a Muslim president?

Posted by: fee336 | August 19, 2010 11:03 AM | Report abuse

The latest from Chapman's Angling, which seems to be England's equivalent to the Bass Pro Shop:

Stillwater Carp Pit Armchair, marked down from £49.99 to £29.99. It has
* Adjustable leg system
* Armrests
* Tilting mudfeet
* Foam-filled, padded cover
* Fully collapsible
* Lightweight – only 4.9kg

I like the mudfeet. I suppose there's plenty of carp to be caught here in the US.


Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | August 19, 2010 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Is it deja vu or is it a flashback? ;)

I could have sworn . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZANKFxrcKU

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Unfortunately some Americans are dumb and there's no ifs ands and buts about it. A co-worker, who I use to think had common sense, thinks Pres. Obama is a Muslin and says "they just don't want us to know". So I asked "who is they and how did she find out the truth"? No answer.

Posted by: rlj1 | August 19, 2010 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Working my way through "Oliver Wiswell," the book that stayed at #1 through 1940-'41, written by Maine's Kenneth Roberts. There's an interesting passage in the start of the book (this historical fiction, packed with fascinating detail, about the American Revolution, as told from the Loyalist perspective) about Pilgrims and religion.

Bottom line: the Pilgrims of the 1620s had far more religious tolerance than the Pilgrims of the 1630s. One need only think of Anne Hutchinson and Roger Sherman (and Quakers), and the liberal colony that became Rhode Island, where all people of various religious persuasions were welcome.

The mosque issue is a nuanced one. Individuals on both sides of the debate need to be sensitive and reasonable.

However, what comes to mind immediately, in grasping for an historical parallel, is what would have happened around 1791, about nine years after the Treaty of Paris had been signed in 1783 (as compared to the nine years after 9/11), if the British had tried to erect an Anglican or Episcopalian church about two blocks from New York's Wallabout Bay. If you don't know the horrors of Wallabout Bay, may I suggest the very recent "Forgotten Patriots." Or there's always Albert Greene's narrative based on the diaries of Thomas Dring--Rhode Islanders, both of these individuals. (I thought Dana Milbank's effort this past week writing about George Washington's visit to speak to Jews in Rhode island was silly.) IIRC correctly, even Millard Fillmore campaigned, years later, about the need to erect a memorial in nearby Brooklyn to these extremely brave fallen.

Hopefully, wiser heads will prevail in New York City and work out a sensible solution to this issue.

Off to celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary.

Posted by: laloomis | August 19, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Nice one, fee336.

So that's the response to rlj's co-worker - "I'm glad you're tolerant enough to be proud of electing a Muslim president, if that's what he is."

Posted by: Ivansmom | August 19, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Isn't irony great. The pilgrims came for religious freedom but the Puritan theology that they espoused so vigorously did not extend freedom of worship to others who did not share their beliefs.

The "TULIP" doctrine that guides today's right-wing evangelicals comes to us from the Puritans.

T - total depravity
U - unconditional election
L - limited atonement
I - irresistible grace
P - perseverance of the saints

Any one of those points is a dealbreaker for me but especially "limited atonement" which posits that Jesus did not die for everyone's sins, but only for the "elect."
I think that kind of spiritual elitism is the root of the evil of right-wing "Christianity." And if you scratch the surface of the anti-mosque reasoning, a lot of it comes down to, "we're better than them."

"Stupid?" I don't know, but certainly "wrong."

*****

Also, when the "Obama is an alien from outer space" rumor takes off, Joel, I hope it will be traced to you due to your expertise in the field and maybe you'll get to go on the talk shows and discuss it!

Posted by: kbertocci | August 19, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

There are Americans who need conspiracy theories and bizarre, inside information. Psychological problems that cause sane people who rely on data and facts to shake thier head. Then they get people like FOX and Sarah Palin who feed it. Don't forget Sarah's witch doctor who was casting out the devil in her baby. Reason is not relevant to them.

Posted by: withersb | August 19, 2010 11:26 AM | Report abuse

He may not be a muslin, but he is the worsted President I ever did see.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 11:32 AM | Report abuse

baldinho, I'm cottonin' to you! (Where's CpQ, so we can pun on fabric again and drive every one else insane?)

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

This link bears repeating.

http://isbarackobamamuslin.com/

I always thought of him more as a crinoline or perhaps a taffeta.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

I had to click through several links (ironically starting at a FoxNews article) but here is the breakdown on who thinks Obama is a Muslim:

White: 21%
Black: 7%

Republican: 31%
Democratic: 10%
Independent: 18%

http://pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/Growing-Number-of-Americans-Say-Obama-is-a-Muslim.aspx#1

Conclusion: Blacks and Democrats are 1/3 as likely to be idiots as Whites and Republicans.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 11:50 AM | Report abuse

All this just goes to show how easy it is to "brainwash" Americans, and our politicians know that. Its so easy to fool the masses. Yes. They are numbskulls.

Posted by: jykmoy | August 19, 2010 11:52 AM | Report abuse

baldinho, I didn't know you felt that he was compressing the fabric of society and trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Perhaps that's begauze his aftershave is Chenille #5.

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 11:56 AM | Report abuse

There's a current in the comments indicating some of us have doubts about the veracity of the polling methods or conclusions. I despise poll questions because they carry the reduction of complexity to an extreme degree.

What did the poll really reveal? Beliefs? Those willing state they have beliefs they don't really hold? What is "really holding a belief?"

Of course the raw data of the answers are "adjusted" by the pollsters in unrevealed ways. That's no conspiracy theory. Adjusted, one assumes, for all the people who have no land-line phones, or who refuse to participate when reached, or whose answers are so over-the-top they are dismissed. Their methods are trade secrets.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 12:00 PM | Report abuse

Idiot
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Numbskull)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbskull

In several states, "idiots" do not have the right to vote:

* Arkansas Article III, Section 5[12]
* Kentucky Section 145[13]
* Mississippi Article 12, Section 241[14]
* New Mexico Article VII, section 1[15]
* Ohio (Article V, Section 6)[16]

Perhaps we need a constitutional amendment.

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 12:05 PM | Report abuse

hey bc,

pasta with fava beans and yogurt pesto. I think that I remember you as a home yogurt producer.

I just made a lunch with chopped shoulder pork and sauteed onions and green pepper cooked in Marsala Wine, oregano, red pepper flakes and crushed garlic. Once I had the sautee going for 10 minutes with the pork, I tossed in 8 to 10 tablespoons of our house red sauce and some water and let it go over high heat for another 10 minutes, adding water as needed. This went over pasta with a 1/3 of a cup of yogurt and some Parmesan cheese. Whatever that is, it got an A+.

Here is a link to the yogurt pasta and fava bean dish:

http://www.tasteofbeirut.com/2010/04/spaghetti-with-fava-bean-and-yogurt-sauce/

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Y'know... I'd probably be more concerned about this if I believed that people were getting stupider. The thing is, I don't: I think people have probably always been this stupid, but we're just getting better at seeing the whole picture of it. Think people were any "smarter" when there wasn't universal access to at least an elementary education? And that's even before you start to analyze the possibly classist undercurrents of it all.

It's similar to the crap about the news media becoming more partisan, which is wrong: it's always been partisan. Newspapers were a core fermenting ground for inspiring the American Revolution. The fact that we once had nationally-unifying characters like David Brinkley and Walter Cronkite is an anomaly.

Posted by: tidalwv | August 19, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

Cholly, I have heard your argument, but I refuse to be suede.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

The poll was taken by the highly respected Pew Research Center and the exact wording of the question was:

"Now, thinking about Barack Obama's political beliefs...Do you happen to know what Barack Obama's religion is? Is he Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, or something else?"

http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Issues/Politics_and_Elections/growingnumber-topline.pdf (page 11 of the PDF)

Sounds like a reasonably neutrally worded question to me. Don't blame the messenger if the results don't reflect well on the American electorate.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 12:17 PM | Report abuse

I am reminded of an article from The Onion from a couple of years ago (can't get there from here, or I'd link it) that had as its headline, "38% Of Americans Unqualified To Hold The Opinions They Do."

So perhaps this latest poll means that American dipsh*ttery is on the decline.

Posted by: byoolin1 | August 19, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Right now in America "Muslim" equates to "someone I don't like" and "someone who is not American" so what I think these people are really saying is that they don't like Obama and view him as un-American. This also explains why people, and probably the same people, have claimed Obama is a socialist - he's just plain un-American to them. The irony here is that the "un-American" Obama is the one defending the basic American right to freely practice the religion of your choice while those who oppose him have shown they don't really understand their Constitution and what it means to be American in the first place.

Posted by: calgrl75 | August 19, 2010 12:23 PM | Report abuse

"God help us. Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?" Yes. After all, they voted for Obama in the first place, didn't they?

Not a single member of the public can say with 100% certainty whether Obama is or isn't a Muslim (and that includes you reporters). I doubt that he is a Muslim, but that doesn't matter, because the black theology church of Jeremiah Wright that he attended for more than 20 years is, to put it mildly, not exactly Christian either. Not even close. The so-called "religion" of black theology is bad enough as it is without having to worry whether Obama is a closet Muslim or not.

Posted by: bluewinterwaves | August 19, 2010 12:29 PM | Report abuse

Hey Joel, it's you who are the numbskull. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of the Quran knows that Obama is a Muslim under Islamic law. If you don't believe me, refer to this quote in the NEW YORK TIMES: "As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant."

You, sir, are nothing more than a disingenuous leftist ideologue.

Posted by: kelleypb | August 19, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Away from the boodle for a while, it was a treat to see again Kbert's clear, crisp exposition and logic.

All are invited to go back and read Kbertocci again.
Lowen1

Posted by: Lowen1 | August 19, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Short answer no, and I generally agree with tidalwv.

What I do think I see is not so much a rise in propaganda or outright fabrication but a near total absence of rebuttals. It seems to me that old school politicians used to make more use of libel and slander laws. I can't remember the last time I saw a politician do this in the states.

Delivering your own press release is a far cry from forcing a retraction or correction. The audience can be completely different.

Posted by: qgaliana | August 19, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

kelleypb... oh, never mind. I bet you are one of those who don't like his bobbin and weaving and will be linen up to vote him out next election.

Because the Quran (as interpreted by kelleypb) says it, it must be so. He has no free will, any more than kelleypb does, it seems.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 12:36 PM | Report abuse

So what you're saying, then, kellypb, is that 20% of Americans aren't numbskulls, they're experts on Islamic law?

And you seem to be one of the lucky 20%.

Posted by: byoolin1 | August 19, 2010 12:40 PM | Report abuse

byoolin, don't be discriminatory to kelleypb. Just because he/she adheres to the teachings of the Quran doesn't make him/her a bad person. It just makes him/her a Muslim.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 12:42 PM | Report abuse

I would argue that the problem with many Americans isn't "dumbness" per se; it's really that so many are willfully ignorant about important issues. Coupled with an increasing lack of tolerance for nuance, it becomes almost impossible to answer a simple poll question (Obama's religion excluded) in a yes or no fashion or express absolute suppport (or disapproval) for a single issue.

The thing that has amazed me is how has this not turned into something of a property rights battle. I've never heard any of the right wing frame their analysis in terms of property rights; and that's probably because you can't make a coherent, consistent argument in those terms.

How many of the mosque objectors do you think know:

>There are already 2 existing mosques within blocks of "ground zero."

>The developer already owns most of the property on which the new religious/rec center is proposed to be built.

>The project is designed to be a "YMCA-like" facility and not solely a mosque.

>The proposed imam is a Sufi and not one of the strict Wahabbists of the 9/11 hijacker, Taliban and Saudi types to whom people may rightfully have some opposition.

But all of that said, I can still understand and respect why some of the 9/11 families might not be supporting the construction. This may put me on thin ice, but I think that the "9/11 families" have been given a little too much deference in how the redevelopment proceeds. Unquestionably, they suffered a great loss there, but I'm not sure that they should now have absolute veto power or the right to become the de facto Lower Manhattan Development Corporation which, in many respects, seems to be what has occurred.

It is a difficult and highly nuanced issue in a time that has a decided oppostion to nuance. Yes, religious freedom is one of the things that has made America a great place, but, in my mind more importantly, so has a spirit of compromise. The best solution probably isn't to let them either build "as-is" or to prohibit it entirely, but to find some middle ground solution. If everyone feels like it's a bad solution, then it's probably a good solution.

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Facts are not a core Republican value.
These are the same numbskulls that believe GW Bush kept America safe, that Obama wasn't born in the USA and that Evolution is just a theory. They are also 95% self-identified Republicans.

They watch the Republican TV network and believe everything they're told.

Posted by: thebobbob | August 19, 2010 12:54 PM | Report abuse

qgaliana and tidalwv... While the press has been biased, I will say that there are fewer independent news outlets around. It is quite possible that folks can spend their time looking at printed media; watching broadcast news and then also watching cable-sourced shows and looking at websites that are within 3 degrees in management from a single individual--Rupert Murdoch.

The Wall Street Journal used to be "just conservative," but now it has been "Rupert'ed." If there were any doubt, Rupert just gave a million dollars to the Republican Party.

In a similar manner, about half of K Street is funded by the Koch family. Yesterday, between battles with my flooding garage that was threatening the basement, I watched parts of the UK hearings on the Iraq war. There was a very long segment during the questioning of Jack Straw who went into great detail about how "one deals" with the Americans. He referenced the very large challenge of figuring out where America would go. You have to deal with all sorts of trial balloons and competing contingents.

It was certainly hard on the system to see a former government official listing to reasoned and important questions and actually answering those questions in detail, even anticipating follow-up questions and proceeding to provide their beliefs on those, as well. Of course, the follow-up questions were all complex, but also important in that, as we all know, the "devil is in the details."

The reason I mentioned this is that I think that the number one job of today's American press is to over-simplify and favor preference of outcome over fact or truth.

I also have seen that, while visiting ICU's where there are TVs on, most of those TV's are tuned to FOX. I would hazard to guess that more people die watching FOX than any other network.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 12:55 PM | Report abuse

It is a GOP political tactic to create anger and confusion. The tactic works. It started with Willie Horton. I see the Willie Horton ads as one of George HW Bush's most lasting legacies as president.

Posted by: tinyjab40 | August 19, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

Following up what yello said, while I am not a big believer in polls (and generally dislike many of them), this one was from the Pew Research Center, as he mentioned, and which is a pretty good outfit for exactly this sort of thing.

Fair disclosure: I know a guy who was hired by Pew a few years ago, and who works in the section that researches religion topics. Very bright young guy, and a sociologist, IIRC but I could be wrong about that. But in any event, I'd vouch for the quality of his work, his character and integrity, yadda yadda.

Also, I took his mom to the senior prom. (And no, I'm not his long-lost daddy. DNA samples available upon request.)

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Well put, tidalwv, I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head. One of my big pet peeves is the media's need to turn any instance of bad behavior into a trend. In reality, sad as it may be, we've always done stuff like this. Take a gander at some of the things the partisan newspapers had to say about Lincoln, for instance.

Posted by: simpleton1 | August 19, 2010 1:01 PM | Report abuse

What a bunch of elitist liberal fascists we are, for having the education and intellect to recognize the blinding stupidity of public and political discourse in this country!!

Posted by: spongekill | August 19, 2010 1:04 PM | Report abuse

We are an increasingly ill-informed country. I blame the growing influence of Fox "News."

Posted by: lizgwiz | August 19, 2010 1:04 PM | Report abuse

I find the question of "who believes it" interesting, but of course the real question, as MsJS and others have said, is why anyone should care. I was struck by this after reading the back-to-back posts explaining why Obama certainly is Muslim and we are idiots for thinking otherwise. Since when does a President's religious practice have any bearing on his fitness for office? The implication, of course, is that profession or practice of a certain faith renders one unfit for office.

I say "practice" because that seems to be the concern - that a practicing Muslim is somehow offensive or dangerous as a leader of American government. kelleypb, above, seems to offer a different take - that the mere status by birth of being Muslim (if true) is enough to disqualify one from leadership, whether or not the person actually professes or even knows anything about the faith itself. This position seems too extreme even for this surreal conversation. Some branches of Judaism still count membership by birth and lineage. If Obama had been born to a Jewish mother, would that make him Jewish (and thus, presumably, unfit?) even if he was raised in, say, the Assemblies of God?

Should we have made more, as a nation, of Carter's sincere Baptist beliefs? Does it matter that several recent Presidents have appeared perfunctory at best in matters of faith? George W. Bush was not much of a churchgoer as President but often spoke of policy issues in religious or faith-oriented terms.

I understand why they included this question in the poll. The issue for the question was not whether Obama actually is Muslim. The pollsters wanted to get a feel for just how many wingnuts out there are willing to believe that. That is, the poll was specifically directed to Joel's question, "Are Americans total numbskulls?" rather than to Obama's religious belief.

Posted by: Ivansmom | August 19, 2010 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Except that 18 percent of the public didn't think Lincoln was a Choctaw medicine man.

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 1:05 PM | Report abuse

It is a proven fact that almost 50% of the US population has below average intelligence.

Posted by: anotheractor | August 19, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

It makes me wonder whether literacy tests to qualify voters were really such a bad idea.
Eighty percent of Americans think twenty percent of Americans are numbskulls.

Posted by: amstphd | August 19, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Why is anyone surprised by this? 50 years ago, we were told to dive under our desks at school because "they" were going to bomb us. 40 years ago, we were going to have "them" coming upon our shores after the dominoes fell in Southeast Asia. 30 years ago, our way of life was going to be dictated by "those" people in the Middle East with all the oil.

There is always a "them" in American politics, and "they" are always dangerous. And the opponents of this administration have exploited that fact again, painting this president as one of "them," a danger to the Republic.

Americans have bought the argument in the past, and they're doing once more.

Posted by: fjc33 | August 19, 2010 1:09 PM | Report abuse

-kbert,

to be fair, for those of us who are Christians, we usually manage to have our own Jesus. Jesus can truly be a guiding light in our lives or wiggling on our dashboard. One thing for sure, doing things in his name, doesn't make one right; not even close. History proves this!

I have the hardest time understanding the "charity" aspect of so many people's lives. I don't mean that part of charity that involves spare change, but living as a brother and a friend with our neighbors.

I'm thinking Tea Party right now. It seems very discordant with my understanding of the teachings of Jesus.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the personal insult.

I am not misinformed on the issue.... not in the least.

If you had to bet money... what religion do you believe he believes in most?

It is quite reasonable to respond "muslim"

If this reasonable point of view is disregarded as rubish... then you are dividing...

convince me... remind me of some actions that would make me think otherwise...

don't insult me.

Posted by: docwhocuts | August 19, 2010 1:11 PM | Report abuse

I wonder how much is ignorance and how much is just vitriol. My guess is that there are a lot of right-wingers who would claim to believe that Obama is a Muslim -- even though they know he isn't -- simply because they hate him so much.

Posted by: js_edit | August 19, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

The answer is "yes."

Posted by: bs2004 | August 19, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Are Americans total numbskulls?
God help us. Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?

2008 Democratic Popular Vote

Obama's Popular Vote Total: 17,535,458 (48.1%)

Posted by: alance | August 19, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

I used to read this lovely blog every day, without any great desire to post, because all who particpated are so eloquent that I simply enjoyed reading the posts.

But, I thank MOST of you today for reminding me that in many places in this great country, there are those who can still reason, and can understand good and bad outside of the simple measurement that "I don't like it, so it must be bad".

Sometimes, living in Texas, I forget. Texas is a great state, and we wouldn't be America without it, but political thought is not their strongest export.

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | August 19, 2010 1:15 PM | Report abuse

There is no difference between a mosque at Ground Zero, Carmelite nuns at Auschwitz or even First Baptist a few miles up the road from Sand Creek outside Denver.

Posted by: slim2 | August 19, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Finally someone asks the question that has been on so many of our lips. Next up, What are we to do about it? If nothing, this "greatest country in the world" is headed off a cliff.

Posted by: lindsaycurren | August 19, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

I agree. But even if Obama WERE a Muslim - why the heck should that be a problem?

Most people will agree that IN THEORY, religions call for love, faith, forgiveness, etc, etc - higher values. But in practice people from every religion use their religion as an excuse to persecute or be biased against others.

Posted by: elenmarsh | August 19, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

it's not that big a deal. The 20% are the far right who truly hate him and want to believe the nonsense. Hell, I bet of that 20%, 20% think he's the anti-christ.

Flipside would be on the far Left where many believe Bush engineered 9/11. The difference is they make up a much smaller portion of the population than the ignorant Right does.

Posted by: divi3 | August 19, 2010 1:17 PM | Report abuse

I agree that anyone who thinks President Obama a Muslim is indeed lacking in intelligence. However, I am noting a certain strain of liberal triumphalism here. I would not doubt that these morons lean right. But what of the leftist nutjobs who think George Bush masterminded the 9/11 attacks despite copious amounts of evidence to the contrary? What of the legions of Michael Moore devotees who fail to see his films as the entertaining montages they are?

Stupidity knows no ideological boundaries.

Posted by: boog44 | August 19, 2010 1:17 PM | Report abuse

I'd like to ask 1 of every 5 Americans what they think a Muslim was doing in Pastor Jeremiah Wright's church. Do you suppose it was a Muslim church?

Posted by: ukhrah | August 19, 2010 1:18 PM | Report abuse

Are Americans total numbskulls? Of course not. Only the ones that voted for Obama.

Posted by: jdonner2 | August 19, 2010 1:18 PM | Report abuse

So are the 54% of liberals in the EXACT SAME POLL also numbskulls?

In the same poll:

54% of liberals do not believe obama is christian.

Thus, 54% of liberals MUST believe he is a liar.

Posted by: docwhocuts | August 19, 2010 1:18 PM | Report abuse

I don't think Obama is a Muslim. But I do think there is plenty of evidence out there for reasonable people to think he might be. This includes things like Obama's volunteered love for the Islamic call to prayer, his heritage and upbringing in Indonesia, and even the Post's article back in February wondering why Obama hadn't picked a church yet, and noting that he likes to pray privately based on a range of source material.

Heckling 20% of Americans who look at these facts and wonder if Obama might actually be a Muslim is dangerous and short-sighted. It's also racist, since you seem to assume that they think he is Muslims in a bad way -- frankly I wouldn't care one way or the other if he were actually a competent President.

And the liberal caterwauling about the 9/11 mosque continues to be wholly deceitful. THERE ARE ALREADY DOZENS OF MOSQUES IN NYC. Seems pretty diverse to me. There also has NEVER been the so-called "anti-Muslim backlash" that liberals brace for every single time a Muslim terrorist attacks us (the frequency of this is noteworthy) -- America is one of the most diverse, tolerance nations on earth.

At the same time, we're not idiots. We hate being lied too -- a strain in both people's suspicions about Obama's religion, and the real motives of the 9/11 mosque sponsors. Unsurprisingly, Achenbach simply assumes that the mosque sponsors are the "good guys" despite the fact that they refuse to answer any probing questions about the mosque or explain why the imam blamed America for 9/11 and wouldn't say whether he had an issue with radical Islamic groups like Hamas. Again: we ALREADY have dozens of mosques in NYC. Applying scrutiny to one that someone tries to build in the WTC rubble field is not bigotry, it is common sense. Of course, liberals distill these issues to a bunch of name calling at people who actually want to know what's really going on, and then announce "Who are you going to believe, us or your lying eyes?"

Posted by: zippyspeed | August 19, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Who coined the phrase "Ground Zero" to scaremonger the nuclear threat from Iraq in the first place. We were all taken in. "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, ...", truer words were never spoken by Abraham Lincoln. Did we consider how survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki might feel about the comparison? If it is sacriligious to put an Islamic community center near "Ground Zero", how about our commercial "Freedom Tower"? It sounds sanctimonious to me, that means "really stuck up"!

Posted by: cjherzfeld@verizon.net | August 19, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

There is a tendency in the media to excuse the incredible ignorance and laziness on the part of many Americans. Instead of staying informed, they believe it is "above" them to pay attention to public affairs, or to the extent that they do keep in touch with what is happening it is through right-wing extremist propaganda sources that feed their worst prejudices. Ben Franklin, on leaving the Constitutional Convention in 1789, was asked what kind of a government we were going to have, and he replied "a republic, if you can keep it." One wonders how much longer we are going to be able to keep it in an increasingly challenging world with the miserable generation of so-called adults who now make up our voting public.

Posted by: historian4 | August 19, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Please! Never ever underestimate the ability of walking-around Amurkians to be ignorant, unlettered, philistine-like (without culture), and xenophobic, nor the incessant machinations of political thugs who would exploit such ignorant, unlettered, xenophobic philistinism to their own selfish political advantage. We are woefully ignorant of the hard lessons of history, of the hard lessons of our own transformation into a nation, and of the hard lessons from other lands and cultures who have had to face the changing human dynamic in a changing world. We cannot afford to give in to the fear-mongers -- Palin, Gingrich, Beck, Boehner, McConnell, to name only a few -- who would cause us to repudiate our own Constitution by their wholesale misunderstanding of that document, and who would whip the mob into a mindless frenzy fed by fear and ignorance. The amusing, if not downright terrifying, aspect of this is the rabid insistence of such terror-meisters that Obama is like Hitler. Anybody who understands the history of Nazism would immediately discern the parallels in that wretched history with the politics of the moment in this country from the purveyors of fear and hatred, bred of ignorance and rank stupidity. We are going to pay a price for our foolish ignorance if we don't discern the fearmongers among us, and their ulterior motives of self aggrandizement and selfish, political self-interest, and it may be more than our national political bank can bear. America may indeed go bankrupt, but not at the local Chase-Manhattan.

Posted by: sailmaker1943 | August 19, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

I'm certainly not shocked...At least 1 in 5 only need to hear the name and the deal is closed. A certain # are going to say they believe anything negative about Obama because they hate the guy. It seems to me that GOPers see party like a football team. Democrats subscribe to the Will Rogers schppl. We don't belong to a party....we're Democrats.

Posted by: mfkpadrefan | August 19, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

Achenbach keeps saying, as do most of the media (another symptom of Jounolisting?) that people are free to worship anyway they want in the US. And he and these others are dishonesty correct. I have yet to see anywhere that anyone is saying they can't worship the way they want to. The beef is where they want to put their new mosque, which most feel is a stick in the eye if it placed neared Ground Zero. Would a synagogue want a KKK museum put up next door? As a Catholic I am sure I would not want one next door to my church either.

It would be better for all if they built somewhere nearby, but not within the zone of whatever New Yorkers decide is a fair space to avoid offending those who lost loved ones, while balancing the needs for this mosque's members to have a central location to practice their religion. We make schools change their nicknames because their mascots might be offensive to someone. Let's do the same in this regard, and urge these folks to locate someplace that would make everyone happy.

Posted by: stvcar | August 19, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

54% voted for O so that is certainly a majority of numbskulls.

Posted by: mpolybius | August 19, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

docwhocuts - Well, there's always the repeated statement of his beliefs by Obama, who has steadfastly maintained the he clings to the Christian faith.

But once you've decided he's lying about that, then (as long as you're not misinformed, and you've assured me you're not) all bets are off.

Posted by: bobsewell | August 19, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

I haven't read all of the comments so I'm sure this has been said before but "Thank you, Joel" for more eloquently stating the first thing that came into my mind. (OK the actual 1st thing in my mind was - you can't cure stupid.) I love this country but don't understand the mindset of fear & hate so prevalent right now. So like JohnDinHouston I would to say thanks for showing me that there are still people who actually understand how to analyze information and not just absorb what they hear on tv.

Posted by: fairfax_gal | August 19, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

Are Americans numbskulls? YES. We are.

Frankly, I think this Nation has peaked as far as intelligence, vision, motivation, and innovation is concerned. We are on the downhill ride and we havent' reached bottom but we will and then, maybe, we might make our way back up the ladder.

You see, in our American minds we are still the number #1 Nation in all the above but look around at the results of our intelligence, vision, motivation and innovation and you see, unemployment, poor and costly education institutions, economy is hanging by a thread, states are broke, the future looks bleak for young and old alike. We don't even have suitable health care in this so-called super power of a Nation. Sad. Really, sad.

And our two party political system is seriously f--ked. One party is almost impotent and the other suffer from dementia. America we are scr--ed.

Posted by: rannrann | August 19, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

this fool is right on. to elect this incompetent liar was stupid

Posted by: pofinpa | August 19, 2010 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Remember the flap over Jeremiah Wright and the Obamas? The current ruckus proves that certain cohorts of Americans not only are idiots, they can't remember squat.

Posted by: slyness
-----------------------------
Exactly, peoples minds are only as long as is convenient. I got a huge laugh a few weeks ago (maybe a bit longer) when a group of right-wingnuts was trying to have Obamas citizenship revoked for some reason or another. I noticed that these were several of the same people who only a few months before that claimed it was a fact that he is not a citizen.

Posted by: schnauzer2 | August 19, 2010 1:24 PM | Report abuse

"Ground Zero"? How many people believe 9/11 was a nuclear attack?

Posted by: cjherzfeld@verizon.net | August 19, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

The thing that's staring us in the face, not just with this poll but poll after poll, is that approximately 20% of Americans are racists right down to their bones.

Like the Three Wise Monkeys -- see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil -- we prefer to believe in fairy tales rather than history. We lull ourselves with the nice bedtime story that forces and dispositions pushed out of public life and public view in the course of the 1960s and 70s simply expired there in the darkness while we were not looking, listening or discussing evil.

But with the devastating defeat of the Republican Party in 2006 and 2008, right wing elites who, in better times for their side, would be more cautious, more tasteful, more "American" about riding herd on this ugly side of the electorate, have given it free rein, even in the case of FOX News and slime radio, applied the spurs.

And the rest of media still pretends to be puzzled and surprised by poll results and the shocking things that seem suddenly to leap out of the mouths of the likes of a Dr. Laura; while most Americans, worried about other things, just get upset with the few messengers that there are: No, no, no, it can't be racism, not in our America, today.

Posted by: washpost29 | August 19, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

FINALLY, a member of the media stating the obvious. We need a headline next that reads, "What percentage of Americans are total idiots?" My guess is around 18%.

Posted by: fishman2 | August 19, 2010 1:26 PM | Report abuse

As Obamas poll numbers go down, more people are going to say he's a Muslim whether they really believe it or not. This poll is just a simple function of his popularity waning.

On the other hand, it's great fodder for liberals, let's them look down their noses at the public and get their panties in a bunch all at the same time.

Posted by: je121819 | August 19, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

Would a synagogue want a KKK museum put up next door? As a Catholic I am sure I would not want one next door to my church either.

Posted by: stvcar | August 19, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

See, there's where your analogy goes wrong - in the case of the Cultural Center at the site of the World Trade Center, (or Mosque, if you prefer) The Cultural Center in this case is the synagouge, the KKK museum are the folks that flew planes into the World Trade Center.

Posted by: JohnDinHouston | August 19, 2010 1:31 PM | Report abuse

omg, someone said 54% voted for Obama and therefore that makes the majority numbskulls.

Really? I thnk not. the 46% who didn't vote for Obama are the brick attached to this Nation's neck as we drag you around day to day while trying to bring this Nation forward and you have all but completely strangled us with your dead weight....

Posted by: rannrann | August 19, 2010 1:31 PM | Report abuse

I just checked the bunker out, everything's clean and full and ready to go!

Thank you, JohnDinHouston, for your post. It made me laugh. Gotta love Texas.

Kber, good to hear from you! I tend to fall on the Armenian side of the Calvinist/Armenian divide, you probably do too. There was nothing tolerant about the Puritans, they were after a church their way and none other. The Great Puritan Experiment in England failed after the death of Oliver Cromwell, never to be resurrected.

Posted by: slyness | August 19, 2010 1:31 PM | Report abuse

The people suspicious that Obama is a Muslim (a matter of no importance even it turned out to be true) are, not surprisingly, the same ones who derided him for his membership in Rev. Wright's church. And, as the article points out, whatever you believe about Wright he is certainly no Muslim.

How to explain such obviously conflicting views? It's easy when you know that statistically a minority in any given population will be to the left of the bell curve on measured intelligence.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

What prize will be awarded to the boodler who coins the perfect moniker for today's "storm"?

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

Joel Achenbach asks (rhetorically, we hope) whether Americans are total numbskulls.

Certainly, this type of question, or rather this assertion, since he appears to believe that the answer is yes, has been posed on numerous occasions by others in the world since the founding of the United States.

In 1938, an Orson Welles radio drama "The War of the Worlds" caused mass panic in some parts of the U.S., spurring the Italian Fascists to mock the U.S. as a "3rd grade democracy".

A few years later, this 3rd grade democracy defeated the forces of fascism in Europe and Asia and proceeded to dominate the world in culture, technology, and military power for the next sixty years or so.

Now we hear the same, tired complaints from the anti-American elite: "clinging to guns and religion" (oops, that one was said by an American named Barry Obama), "1/5 of Americans are morons" (also stated by more than a few commenters to this blog), and so forth.

A slightly differently worded poll might have uncovered an even larger number of "numbskulls". For example, "Would you say that Mr. Obama sympathizes with or feels a bond with Muslims?" We all heard about his first foray into the Middle East and his cringe-worthy speech in Cairo praising women's "right to wear a hijab".

We also know that he's one of the least pro-Israel presidents since Carter, to the point that even the Democratic-dominated House of Representatives felt compelled to pass a resolution asserting that Israel is a friend of the United States.

And, we know that Obama's long time spiritual leader and mentor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, is more of a social and political activist than a religious man, to judge by some of the things he has said: "we should say... God damn the United States [rather than God Bless...]" and his distinctive distaste for Jews.

I think it's a safe bet that Obama is an atheist at heart, or perhaps an agnostic who has found it politically expedient to embrace Christianity, albeit a political form of Christianity that is short on spiritualism and long on unionism.

Clearly, 4/5 of the responders to this blog do look down on the common Americans. I would urge those people to read some American history and try to understand just how important the unwashed masses have been to making the U.S. the power it is today. Millions of these numbskulls died in wars to end slavery and division, wars to end fascism, and wars perpetrated by the educated elite (who would never say Obama was a Muslim) to further their defense industry profits in the name of defeating Communism or Jihadism.

Posted by: ttraub | August 19, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

I now this is Washington, but I think you are taking polling data too seriously. Ask a stupid question, and you get a stupid answer! A lot of people probably will tell you what they think you want to hear, not what they really believe. How many people just love to mess things up for pollsters?

Posted by: cjherzfeld@verizon.net | August 19, 2010 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Why shouldn't we believe Obama is a Muslim? Because he said he is not? Do we think Obama wouldn't lie to political advantage. Assume for a moment he is not a Muslim. We know he did attend sermons preached by Rev Wright over a protracted period, sermons which preached race hatred and denigrated America. Obama says he didn't believe what Wright was saying - "that's just what black preachers do" - but he kept coming back.

Bottom line: We don't know what Obama is, what he believes, or who he supports. We do know that he is balooning the federal debt, pandering to dictators, and weakening our ability to fight terrorism. We also know that he lied to his leftist constituents and has expanded the war in Afghanistan. I think that is all we need to know to be prepared to vote in November.

Posted by: hill_marty | August 19, 2010 1:35 PM | Report abuse

docwhocuts, sorry you feel insulted...but yes, you're a moron. Sorry, that's just how it is. And you are beyond trying to convince, so no one here is likely to try.

Um... where is this bunker you guys talk about? I think it is time to seek shelter; we're having an 18-percent-cohort infestation. Thanks for the front-page link, WaPo. That's just what we needed here.

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 1:35 PM | Report abuse

At least 20% of Americans are as dumb as rocks.

I chalenge WaPo to categorically refute the Pew's results, in bold letters, on the Front Page, and certify that President Obama is neither Muslim nor lacking in American Citizenship.

This is an obligation of a free press. Otherwise, you allow yourselves to be scoped by Snopes or Rolling Stone, in which case, WaPo renders itself irrelevant.

Posted by: bloommarko4 | August 19, 2010 1:36 PM | Report abuse

"the beef is where they want to put their new mosque, which most feel is a stick in the eye if it placed neared Ground Zero. Would a synagogue want a KKK museum put up next door? As a Catholic I am sure I would not want one next door to my church either."

I probably don't really need to point this out to most of the people here, but you do understand that comparing the proposed Islamic recreation center/mosque with a "KKK museum" isn't exactly an accurate comparison? Right? Writing stupid $hit like that confirms you as a 1-in-5er.

And sorry about the pseudo-profanity, but sometimes there's no better description.

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 1:37 PM | Report abuse

I also suspect that 1 in 5 also believe that Jesus is coming and that ALL Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. (including children and babies) who haven't accepted Jesus as their Savior and God are going to burn in agony FOREVER.

Talk about STUPID! Ask Pat Robertson.

Posted by: lufrank1 | August 19, 2010 1:37 PM | Report abuse

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
- H.L. Mencken

Posted by: bloggersvilleusa | August 19, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

One in five Americans also believes the Sun revolves around the Earth. At least one in five Americans is incredibly stupid.

Posted by: jiji1 | August 19, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

"Are Americans total numbskulls?"

Do you even have to ask. It's is pathetic. It's time for a revolution. Everyone should have to pass an intelligence and knowledge test to even go outside the house. Goddamn idiots!!!!!!

Posted by: adrienne_najjar | August 19, 2010 1:41 PM | Report abuse

It's not so bad yet, cholly, we'll hang in at least for a while. Normally, when necessary, we retreat to the previous boodle as the bunker. Got that?

Posted by: slyness | August 19, 2010 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Conservatives like to say he's a Muslim just to stir things up. How's that working?

Posted by: rocks11 | August 19, 2010 1:41 PM | Report abuse

The problem isn't so much cognitive inability but intellectual and analytical laziness. I would argue at least 75% of Americans (I'm being generous) choose not to think, although they could if they wanted to. But that would require effort.

It's funny because just before I saw this I was thinking I need to stop reading/listening to the news again so I don't feel such deep despair about people and the way they are.

Posted by: KristinaV | August 19, 2010 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Jesus may indeed be coming, but it won't be to sort out the Jews and Moslems and chuck 'em all over into hell. It will be to judge Christians who have no idea what the word "Christ" means in the context of Christianity. (Sorry: I don't usually want to mix religion with politics, but I concur with lufrank1's comment, and please: spare me the 10,000 bible quotes from the fundamentalist frootloops. I can read it also).

Posted by: sailmaker1943 | August 19, 2010 1:43 PM | Report abuse

fjc33,
I really miss the Communists as a boogeyman because they really were dedicated to the overthrow of our democratic ideals. Muslims as a group really make a poor object for the Two Minute Hate. While some do fly airplanes into our buildings or blow up innocent civilians, the vast majority don't have anything against me personally even if we disagree on some issues. But then, I disagree with a lot of Christians on a lot of issues.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 1:43 PM | Report abuse

If I think M*tch the B**tch McConnell is doing a fantastic job importing foreigners to take American worker's jobs, does that make me xenophobic too?

Let's hear it for the H1B Virus

Posted by: lambcannon | August 19, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Jerimah Wright is no Christian. He preaches hate for America.
What poroof is there that Chairman O is a Christian besides his word?

Posted by: bnichols6 | August 19, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Nancy Pelosi can utter some real dumb stuff and she's on the inside. Can you imagine those of us that don't pay attention to the news and don't care think.

Posted by: petespagnuolo | August 19, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, slyness, for opening the bunker. I'm gonna bring some different flavors of some lovely tea and a bottle of B&B and perhaps another of Amaretto to go with.

I'm also gonna bring books -- lotsa, lotsa books. You know, *evil* books that people read only because they're evil, I tell ya!

CNB -- the bunker is the previous kit.

Posted by: ftb3 | August 19, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Actually, Barack H. Obama is the numbskull in this case. The guy is so tepid about his supposed Christianity that many are rightfully doubtful about his commitment to the overwhelming religion of choice in America.

And B.O. is so quick to respect and defend the Islamic faith that some who believe he is a Muslim are reinforced.

Obama just seems clueless about the reality of his situation. He's another Carter, only more so.

Posted by: battleground51 | August 19, 2010 1:48 PM | Report abuse

No, they are not stupid. They are very ignorant, and subject easily to hatred from the right wing media, disguised as patriotism.

Posted by: billaldridge | August 19, 2010 1:49 PM | Report abuse

Yes, they apparently are. But WaPo only contributes to the dumbing down of this nation by repeating these assinine allegations. Not that it really matters if the President is a Muslim or not, but exactly how would these 20% of Americans who are morons like for him to "prove" his religious views to them? I go to church most Sundays and I'm sure there are some folks who are there purely for social convention, not out of any attachment to the Christian faith - that's really none of my business!

Posted by: SouthernerInDC | August 19, 2010 1:49 PM | Report abuse

These people are not stupid, they are victims of right-wing media. Fox and the others pump out lies and hysteria 24/7 with almost no push-back from the Post and other "grownups" in the media. Tell them the truth and they may have a chance.

Posted by: rogera | August 19, 2010 1:50 PM | Report abuse

Look for this trend to continue & expand. Education in this country is dying a slow death.

Witness:
Our colleges & universities, while still among the world's best, are educating foreigners who take their degrees & go home.

You can essentially buy a degree (for profits - Strayer, Phoenix, etc.).

In public schools, literacy and critical thinking skills take a back seat to math and science. And, as we all know, when times get lean, education programs are the first to receive cuts.

Posted by: nonsensical2001 | August 19, 2010 1:51 PM | Report abuse

I've been waiting for an article with this title, for a long, long time. The answer is, a growing majority of us are, and Americans WANT to be this way. Less education, more entertainment, less taken in taxes, but spent on useless junk that's been put on credit instead of savings. People are idiots, here, and they deserve what they get.

Posted by: fbutler1 | August 19, 2010 1:51 PM | Report abuse

I've been waiting for an article with this title, for a long, long time. The answer is, a growing majority of us are, and Americans WANT to be this way. Less education, more entertainment, less taken in taxes, but spent on useless junk that's been put on credit instead of savings. People are idiots, here, and they deserve what they get.

Posted by: fbutler1 | August 19, 2010 1:51 PM | Report abuse

It appears that Mark Twain's quote on lies, damn lies and statistics (about the three kinds of lies) needs to add I saw it on the Internet and Fox News as two additional categories.

Posted by: ejgallagher1 | August 19, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Hey Joel, it's you who are the numbskull. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of the Quran knows that Obama is a Muslim under Islamic law. If you don't believe me, refer to this quote in the NEW YORK TIMES: "As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant."

You, sir, are nothing more than a disingenuous leftist ideologue.

*****************************************
Brilliant. Obama is a Muslim simply because Muslim law says so, regardless of the religion Obama has actually practiced for most of his life. Jeezus.

Somebody is being disingenuous, but it's not Joel, and I'm being generous when I use the word "disingenuous". Some people would probably choose "pig-headed".

Posted by: st50taw | August 19, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

As H.L. Mencken famously said, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating either the intelligence or taste of the American public."

Posted by: ehsmith1 | August 19, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

As H.L. Mencken famously said, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating either the intelligence or taste of the American public."

Posted by: ehsmith1 | August 19, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

I wonder what percentage of Americans believe that Jeremiah really WAS a bullfrog? I know that a whole lotta folks believed the Moody Blues when they told us that Timothy Leary was dead.

Posted by: bobsewell | August 19, 2010 1:56 PM | Report abuse

BobS, the biggest problem with Obama seems to be that he is a centrist. Worse, he is a black centrist. He may very well be doing a fantastic job with what he is facing, but he has no constituent base of any size. Obama is a thoughtful and articulate man who managed not to be Hillary or John McCain.

I don't agree with many of his positions because he is far to the right of my position. We are facing 2010 problems and he is implementing Nixon-BushI-Clinton solutions.

My favorite question when the anti-Obama anger whips up, what is it exactly that you don't like about what he has done?

It usually takes a while--just like the comment about Pelosi in the thread above. That statement is about as useful as saying that I have heard Pelosi say a number of things that made all sorts of sense. What use is that? What is it that you like or dislike.

Basically, when it gets down to the issues, few people have command of the issues. OR, as the Onion said ...

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 1:56 PM | Report abuse

Let's just remember that the Pilgrims hanged the Quakers.

Posted by: RichardABreuer | August 19, 2010 1:58 PM | Report abuse

So many questions about anything related to religion make some folks insane. Cognitive dissonance.

I would bet $100 G.W. Bush is an atheist in the privacy of his own mind. And perfectly willing to do whatever it takes, psychologically, to not reveal it.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 1:58 PM | Report abuse

I'd bet 100 bucks that the same people, when asked, would say that Rev. Wright is also a Muslim.

Posted by: koolkat_1960 | August 19, 2010 2:00 PM | Report abuse

And you wonder why America lags in competitiveness with lunacy like this going around?! By and large, Americans, particularly the Christianists among us, do not seek to be educated or challenged by the media they consume: they want their self-indulgence, entitlement, xenophobia, sexism, racism, and heterosexism re-inforced by the news and talking heads, including WGE (Worst Governor Ever).

Posted by: bigolpoofter | August 19, 2010 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Jesus may indeed be coming, but it won't be to sort out the Jews and Moslems and chuck 'em all over into hell. It will be to judge Christians who have no idea what the word "Christ" means in the context of Christianity. (Sorry: I don't usually want to mix religion with politics, but I concur with lufrank1's comment, and please: spare me the 10,000 bible quotes from the fundamentalist frootloops. I can read it also).

Posted by: sailmaker1943 | August 19, 2010 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Worse. It's around 2 in 5. This particular idiocy only infests the right-hand half of the fools.

Posted by: Bill64738 | August 19, 2010 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Maybe 20% are following the old saying "if it walks like a duck...."

Posted by: je121819 | August 19, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

"...Why not just believe he's an alien from outer space?.."
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
If it helps defeat democrats, then, sure, sign me up!

Posted by: sosueme1 | August 19, 2010 2:05 PM | Report abuse

Ingredients for the Presidency :

One Saudi Muslim billionaire- Khalid Al Mansour- plus one Billionaire Saudi Royal Family with very close ties to Mansur plus one radical church of black Theology and a racist preacher plus one 20 year old gullible black male plus 700 million dollars and you become President. Additional ingredients:

Gullible Americans and an Arab backed and owned media structure worldwide. That may help to explain all the different social security numbers listed for both of the Obamas with many of them showing up in media outlets.... Newspapers in 1994 lauding the campaign of "Kenyan Born Obama to the Senate" and Nancy Pelosi changing the wording on the swearing in ceremony...Now what have I left out...oh...traitors to the Democratic party who demonized Hillary - the rightful nominee, and General Electric's billion dollar campaign with MSNBC to shove Obama down our throats !!! Just follow the money... folks..its all there and it will come out eventually...

Posted by: JUNGLEJIM123 | August 19, 2010 2:06 PM | Report abuse

Jumper, I would think that it would be a stretch, but, for sure, W. may use his religion as a "get out of jail" card for his soul. He certainly believed that Jesus' teaching were available in a cafeteria setting. Select a few tenets and then finish it off with some Jello.

The NeoCon's had his ear even before 9/11 and had presented a list of 7 countries that we "really should" attack pre-emptively.

To consider this and even begin to act means that you missed a few chapters of the bible. *imho*

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Hey, ttraub - I'll get right on that history book reading you recommend. Somehow that just slipped my mind, goshdarnit! (psssst, BobS, I know you've been neglecting that, too.)

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 2:08 PM | Report abuse

20% of Americans are numbskulls and they have all joined the Tea Party and Sarah Palin in their joy in bringing their ignorance, hatefulness and bigotry to the forefront....fortunately, they are only 20%...a very loud but meaningless minority.

Posted by: gilbertpb40 | August 19, 2010 2:11 PM | Report abuse

20% of Americans are numbskulls and they have all joined the Tea Party and Sarah Palin in their joy in bringing their ignorance, hatefulness and bigotry to the forefront....fortunately, they are only 20%...a very loud but meaningless minority.

Posted by: gilbertpb40 | August 19, 2010 2:12 PM | Report abuse

talitha, history books? Or maybe some of those wild theoretical types of books like Shock Doctrine.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 2:16 PM | Report abuse

Obama is a Christian, and famously attended a Christian church led by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright...
-----------------
Obama cynically joined Wright's church in order to get some local credibility so he could become a community organizer, then move on to national politics. He couldn't do these if all he had to fall back on was his muslim father and step father background. Then, of course, Obama said he never knew what went on in Wright's church, so saying he was a member doesn't seem to prove anything about him being a "christian."

He clearly was raised a muslim in Indonesia. What is he now? ONly he knows. I'd guess a cynical, empty politician with a fondness for Islam but no true religious faith.

Posted by: silencedogoodreturns | August 19, 2010 2:16 PM | Report abuse

And even the use of the term "Ground Zero Mosque" is allowing its opponents to define the debate. AP is warning against falling into that rhetorical trap.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100819/pl_yblog_upshot/ap-advises-staff-on-location-of-islamic-center-and-mosque


Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 2:17 PM | Report abuse

Yes it appears some people are stupid/not paying attention.

But then polls are sometimes overplayed, as in "the challenger is awhead of the experienced candidate in the Gov. race!".

That happened where I live. The story said the sample size--several hundred voters. It gave percentages for each candidate.

Took less than a minute with a calculator to determine that of the sample, 200+ in the poll sample favored one candidate and 200+ people sampled favored the other candidate.

Less than 300 people answering a summer poll would predict the November outcome?

Yet it was a big headline. Slow news day--or intellectual laziness?

I guess those who believed that poll could predict anything could also believe that a guy born in Hawaii (with grandparents from Kansas) to be a Muslim based on his middle name.

Would they have believed the same thing about a guy born in a Kansas hospital who had grandparents from Hawaii?

Posted by: GHDEL | August 19, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse

docwhocuts:

Where do you get the statistic that 54% of liberals don't believe Obama is a Christian? It's not from the Pew poll. I have to assume you either can't read polls, you're quoting some right wing media outlet, or you made it up.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1779

Posted by: rashomon | August 19, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

So with the hope of turning the tide,

In yesterday's Food section, there was a recipe for Lemon Basil Buttermilk Ice Cream. I am intrigued since I like each of those things individually (and have bushelsful of basil that needs to be used, one can only eat so much pesto), but I'm not certain whether they can all play nice together. I have to believe that the likely case is that it would "challenge" my taste buds and be interesting for a couple of spoonfuls, but not for a bowlful. There is maybe a 10% chance that it would be delicious and something that you would really enjoy. Thoughts?

Also, the bumper crop of zucchini continues. If you go to allrecipes.com, there are about 1000 different zucchini bread recipes. The 3 that I've tried have been very good (straight zuke bread, chocolate chip zucchini bread and zucchini-sweet potato bread). If you have the surplus of zucchini like I do, it makes a great gift for neighbors or something to put out for the office nosh. People love to convince themselves that it's something healthful despite all the sugar and oil that make it so delicious.

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

people are not that stupid. they think he is a muslim because of his words and his actions, not his declared religious affiliation. he claims to be a christian, but his statements and actions appear to benefit muslims. he is Osama Obama, the closet taliban.

Posted by: physicianexec | August 19, 2010 2:20 PM | Report abuse

I think you missed the memo...

brown skinned and the last name Obama equals Muslim...

make a note of it...

and oh...I don't think you really want to know the answer to your headline...

Posted by: justmy2 | August 19, 2010 2:20 PM | Report abuse

Yes, they are numbskulls...and willfully ignorant and hateful ones at that!

Posted by: pumor | August 19, 2010 2:21 PM | Report abuse

Are Americans numbskulls? Well, 40% of the 18-29 age group couldn't answer the question of what nation the U.S. won its independence from. 33% of women couldn't answer it, and 44% of non-whites couldn't answer it. Those 3 groups (the young, the female, and the non-white) are the core groups of Obama's support. So yes, a lot of Americans are numbskulls and the majority of numbskulls voted for Obama.

Posted by: ThisIsReality | August 19, 2010 2:22 PM | Report abuse

One would have though that in this lightening speed Information Age Americans would be MORE informed and have more acurate information. The problem is this media age has also given rise to the 24-hr conservative spin machine that dispatches lies and misinformation faster than the real media can debunk them. There are also a entire herd of gullible numbskulls that ONLY listen to the spinmeisters and then magnify the lies by re-sending it to their circle of numbskull friends. Somehow they are also totally immumne to the truth and will cling to the lies rather than change their set-in-stone minds. Pee-brains like Sarah Palin get a megaphone to shout the stupid crap and the corwd eats it up. This is realy sad - I also blame the MSM for publishing the crap also in the interest of "news" - please ignore the sarah palins except to debunk their lies.

Posted by: sux123 | August 19, 2010 2:23 PM | Report abuse

I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the collective ignorance of the American populace knows no bounds!

You don't believe me? Find the ignorant post by physicianexec.

Posted by: repmisc | August 19, 2010 2:23 PM | Report abuse

Weed, I was just following the clarion call the the self-righteous Ttraub who posted above that the elitists who comment here should crack an American History text. According to him we have no notion of the sacrifices of the common men and women who came before us and forged this country.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 2:28 PM | Report abuse

So if I don't fear Muslims and find the sound of the call to prayer inspiring I am a Muslim?

I am not afraid of heights or quiet places. I find Niagara Falls and Gregorian chants exhilarating.

I am not a waterfall or a monk. Or am I???????

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

From the New York Times, 2008:

"As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant."

-----------------------------

"I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the collective ignorance of the American populace knows no bounds!"

They elected him, I agree.

In November, they start to correct their mistake.

Posted by: drjcarlucci | August 19, 2010 2:30 PM | Report abuse

"She's TV generation. She learned life from Bugs Bunny." William Holden refers to his lover Faye Dunaway's apparent lack of principles, in the movie Network.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 2:30 PM | Report abuse

I hereby coin this the poll-arization boodle.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 2:31 PM | Report abuse

It appears to me, as I fade out the door for a long weekend, that the "poll" of responders in this boodle gives credence to Joel's posited conclusions in the kit.

Posted by: ebtnut | August 19, 2010 2:34 PM | Report abuse

People believe Obama is Muslim because he was a practicing Muslim. This matters because Obama is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion-- who (under sharia law) is subject to the most severe penalties. Obama's apostate status clearly has enormous implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.

Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
http://www.danielpipes.org/5354/confirmed-barack-obama-practiced-islam

In sum: The cited evidence demonstrates that Obama was an irregularly practicing Muslim who rarely or occasionally prayed with his step-father in a mosque. This precisely substantiates claims that Obama for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father.

Therefore, what Joel considers a media falsehood is in fact confirmed by evidence as truthful and accurate. The fact that so few understand this about Obama is a testimony to the Obamedia puppets disinformation and denial campaigns.

Denying Obama's Muslim heritage is in itself a falsehood.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 2:35 PM | Report abuse

The fact that some pollsters thought is necessary or important whether people think the President is muslim or not is also quite disturbing. As long as the person is office keeps his religious view to themselves, i don't care if they worship Zeus.

Posted by: sux123 | August 19, 2010 2:36 PM | Report abuse

Polls? Polls? We don't need no stinkin' polls.. We know that he is a Muslim and that the world is flat.

/signed/
The 20%

Posted by: Geezer4 | August 19, 2010 2:36 PM | Report abuse

One disastrous effect of Obama's status as a Muslim apostate was the way it emboldens Islamo-supremacists.

Take the case of Kaddafi; who clearly insists that Obama is a Muslim and hopes "that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity... and that America will establish relations that will serve it well with other peoples, especially the Arabs."

Apparently, Kaddafi got his wish in Obama's submissiveness to the Lockerbie bomber release.
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/26/did-the-obama-administration-push-for-lockerbie-bombers-release/

Kaddafi will celebrate that odious anniversary with Megrahi tomorrow.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/08/lockerbie_bomber_still_alive_k.html

Thank you, Hussein.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

YES. Americans are so naive they will believe anything. All this 24 hour up to the minute news which is no more than personal opinions is driving Americans crazy. This type of 24 hours news media does not allow for creative thinking or analytical thinking. Current society is too fast.

Posted by: common2 | August 19, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Unrelated but it just popped into my head.

Three years ago I drive into my workplace parking lot. I notice the car I park next to has a vanity plate... ARYAN.

My initial reaction was, hey it is New Hampshire and all, but that is pretty out of line.

I found out that the driver was an Iranian American named.... Aryan, a reasonably common name from those parts. I am certain that he did not know the double entendre he chose when he chose that plate.

I LOVED that plate after that. Imagine the folks driving behind that plate and getting all excited that someone had the balls to get that as a vanity... and then seeing who it was.

hee hee hee.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Over the past several years, I've noted a downward trend in critical thinking in America. I attribute this to the increasing usage of Cable/TV as a source of information and entertainment. Years ago, one would tune in to Huntley & Brinkley, Walter Kronkite, Charles Kuralt, you know, the BIG names. We trusted them to give us information. And sometimes, they made us think.

Now, we are spoon fed information, and depending upon where the TV dial is, there's little movement. There's no challenge.

I also posit that we have gone to so much extremism in many things, that it will take a long while to get back to a more centrist view.

This lack of critical thinking is also caused by the lack of reading, and perhaps a lack of education. Suffice it to say, I do believe some people would say you can be TOO educated. Add to this the inference that "college-educated" means "elitism", and there goes all our grandparents and parent's dreams of education.

So, I can say that 1/5 of this country definitely can't think for itself.

Posted by: MichelleKinPA | August 19, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Dude, when I was visiting my relatives in Iowa, I was a practicing Methodist. Now, you won't find me anywhere near a bake sale or a pancake breakfast.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 2:39 PM | Report abuse

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3491

Posted by: DNA_Girl | August 19, 2010 2:39 PM | Report abuse

I had to click through several links (ironically starting at a FoxNews article) but here is the breakdown on who thinks Obama is a Muslim:

White: 21%
Black: 7%

Republican: 31%
Democratic: 10%
Independent: 18%

http://pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/Growing-Number-of-Americans-Say-Obama-is-a-Muslim.aspx#1

Conclusion: Blacks and Democrats are 1/3 as likely to be idiots as Whites and Republicans.

Posted by: yellojkt
___________________________
didn't need a poll to know that ;)

and no, the 20% aren't those invoking Muslim doctrine on who is a Muslim, nor are they relying on Obama's trip to Indonesia. they are just ignorant.

"walks like a duck" how, exactly? because he defends the constitutional right of Muslims to build a mosque? Laura Ingraham (a conservative talk show host) did the same. does that make her a Muslim? If he defends Israel tomorrow does that make him a Jew? what else has he done to quack like a Muslim?

Jeremiah Wright? he may hate America (never mind he was a decorated soldier) but no one has ever confused him with a Muslim.

Posted by: JoeT1 | August 19, 2010 2:43 PM | Report abuse

Is it any wonder people question who this President really is. He's spent well over $1M to keep his former life secret!!!! So much for transparency! If there nothing incriminating there make it public.

Posted by: Jimbo77 | August 19, 2010 2:45 PM | Report abuse

Methodists eat.

Come to think of it, so did the Korean Presbyterians who used part of a Methodist church in Portland. A member of that congregation worked in a restaurant, and made many friends by catering Korean dishes.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | August 19, 2010 2:47 PM | Report abuse

JoeT1, Larua Ingraham doesn't look Muslimy.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Jimbo77 is an example of the ignorance we are discussing here. He pulls some number out of his a$$ and pretends it proves something. Definitely a 20-percenter.

Posted by: anotheractor | August 19, 2010 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Probably 33% of the American populace falls into this "knee-jerk know-nothing" reactionary category. Given their mindset, these people gravitated towards the so-called "Party of No" whatever the big "no" issue of the day happened to be in whatever locale they happened to reside. In Virginia, say, during the decades that led up to the War Between the States, the "no" issue was abolition of slavery, manumission of chattel slaves and their integration into society. Nearly a century earlier, during the deeply unsettled late period of the Revolutionary War (1778-82), it was disloyalty to the Crown. Most modern-day Americans forget this (if they ever knew it) but a surprisingly high percentage of the British Army fighting the so-called "Continentals" were either paid mercenaries or colonists who called themselves "Tories", "Royalists", or "King's Men".

Ideology aside, what motivated that reactionary faction of the population was resistance to change itself. People prefer the known to the unknown and change is unsettling because it is risky. Many people fear it because they are risk-averse. Demagogues and political charlatans play to those fears by vilifying the leading politicians of their day. So, of course, in our modern day situation President Obama is accused of being either an overt or covert Muslim (even a secret Muslim agent). Some even claim that he wasn't even born in the United States despite ample proof to the contrary.

They sound absurd. But it has always been so -- and always will be.

Posted by: hogsmile | August 19, 2010 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Can I second the Menken quote?

Can I borrow the address of the bunker and just sit on the couch for a spell?

------

Once upon a time, confronted with too much information, I decided the easiest thing to do was to decide what I want to believe and then only pay attention to the confirmatory evidence. But my social circle was unsupportive and called me funny names, so I had to go back to weighing all the evidence, which is why I'm not more productive. Perhaps I should have found new friends instead? (This was before the web, when you might actually spend more time with neighbors and classmates rather the nearest chat group of birds of a feather.)

Posted by: j3hess | August 19, 2010 2:50 PM | Report abuse

The only reason this is a story is because the Obama presidency is a shambles.

Saying he is a Muslim is another way of expressing dislike of him and his policies.

Same as when a frightening percentage of liberals questioned believed Bush secretly planned 9/11.

The fact that under Sharia law Obama is a muslim is secondary.

More and more people, including a majority of independents now, are sick and tired of him.

Deficits triple Bush's, unemployment double Bush's, no end in sight.

Bring on November, and change.

Posted by: drjcarlucci | August 19, 2010 2:50 PM | Report abuse

The problem is NOT that people believe Obama is a foreign born Muslim. That is as the article states, just plain stupid. The real problem is that these people resent the fact that he is black. Calling him a Muslim is in fact a euphemism, for using the N-word. It’s politically acceptable and relieves people of having to confront their own deep seated racism.
The anarchists who are stoking these beliefs are keenly aware of what it means.
It goes like this: “A black man should not be president, but I can’t say that because I’ll get arrested and appear to be un-American. So instead, I’ll just say he’s a Muslim that wasn’t even born here. That way I can express my racism and appear politically engaged and still be able to deny that I am a racist.

Posted by: alpacaman1 | August 19, 2010 2:51 PM | Report abuse

It's not the ignorance that scares me, it's the paranoia. Right here in this comment section there are raving frothing wingnuts continuing to insist that Obama is a Muslim. These people are taking lunacy to a new level. Each one is a future Timothy McVeigh.

Posted by: gposner | August 19, 2010 2:51 PM | Report abuse

YES "JOEL" AMERICANS ARE STUPID. STUPID ENOUGH TO LISTEN TO THE DRIVEL OF ZIONIST TRASH LIKE YOU AND YOUR "ILK." WHEN THIS ZIONIST-TROJAN-HORSE-MUTT-PUPPET TALKS ENDLESSLY ABOUT HIS BEING RAISED ON THE MUSLIM FAITH, AND HIS ONLY PARTICIPATION IN ANY SEMBLANCE OF CHRISTIANITY IS THE OVERTLY-RACIST "REVEREND" WRIGHT, THEN IT BECOMES VERY EASY TO SEE HOW THINKING PEOPLE MIGHT WELL QUESTION HIS "FAITH" AS IF THAT MATTERED AT ALL IN THIS "HERTZELLIAN-BLITZKRIEG" YOU LITTLE VERMIN PUT OUT ENDLESSLY. THEY ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO SIT IDLY BY AND WATCH ALL OUR DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION OUTLETS FALL UNDER THE CONTROL OF ZIONIST-JEWS LIKE YOU SELLING YOUR ENDLESS DAYDREAM OF DECEPTION, AND "WILLED-FOR-YET-UN-ACHIEVED" BELIEF IN USURPATION, AND THEY ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT THE FED IS PART OF THE GOVERNMENT AND NOT JUST ANOTHER RUSE OF THAT SAME FALSE AND INBRED IDEOLOGY THAT YOU YOURSELF ARE A BY-PRODUCT OF. ALBERT EINSTEIN-(HALF-GERMAN PHYSICIST, BORN, RAISED, AND EDUCATED BY GERMANS), ONCE STATED THAT THE VERY DEFINITION OF STUPIDITY IS ROUGHLY-"REPEATING THE SAME BEHAVIOR AND YET EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT." IF THAT DOESN'T ENCOMPASS YOUR PEOPLE AND YOU ARE NOT THE POSTER CHILDREN FOR THAT VERY EDIFICE, THEN I SURELY COULDN'T FIND A BETTER ONE. FROM BOLSHEVISM TO THE DIASPORA, BALFOUR AND THE BOYCOTT TO BERGEN-BELSEN, IT'S YOUR 'PEOPLE' THAT KEEP REPEATING THE SAME BEHAVIOR IN NATION AFTER NATION, AND THEN WONDER WHY IT IS YOU GET THE COMEUPPANCE YOU HAVE COMING EVERY TIME. KEEP BELIEVING IN THE DREAM, AND FOCUS ON IT WHEN THIS NEXT LESSON IS BROUGHT ONTO YOU, IT MIGHT HELP YOU INTO THE LIGHT WITH LESS AGONY, EH? NEXT!

Posted by: scylla62 | August 19, 2010 2:52 PM | Report abuse

Always assume a certain percentage of people will tell pollsters something to be funny or shocking or annoying.

A lot of people are annoyed at the President now, so they say something they think will annoy the President and his media supporters.

The same with the "birthers" and the Bush was part of 911 people.

One of our of our basic constitutional rights is to use pollsters to annoy Presidents and the media.

Its oe of the few reasons to talk to a pollster.

Posted by: jfv123 | August 19, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

Have we had this bear in the blog yet?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/video/bear-caught-on-tape/article1660074/

This bear is reported as weighing 100 US lbs. Just like the US gallon vs the Imperial gallon it seems to me the US pound is a lot smaller than the regular pound. I must weigh over 400 US lbs, surely, if this bear is 100#. I also note here that, as advertised by an old Canadian Football League advert, ours balls are bigger as well.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 19, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

"Maybe they want to believe that because it offers an explanation, of sorts, for why the world isn't the way we think it ought to be. "

This in a sentence encapsulates the entire appeal of Foxnews/Right wing radio to it's audience. Viewers/listeners of the above are intrinsically reactionary and will believe whatever bull crap a conservative talking head as selling as way of coping with an understanding a changing world.

Posted by: jbanks979 | August 19, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Even if he was a Muslim, who cares? Being Muslim isn't evil or bad. People say "maybe he's a Muslim" as if it's on the same grounds as killing babies and eating their corpses.

Islam has been hijacked by a bunch of fundamentalists who want to pervert the religion for their own gain. The majority, on the other hand, use it for spiritual guidance.

Lastly, who cares any more what religion the President is. Why is that so important? If the President was Shinto, Atheist, Buddhist, Satanist, or Pagan, would it really matter? If they keep their religion to themselves, and did what's right for this country, would that be such a bad thing?

We're a secular nation. Religion and Government should never even be mentioned in the same breath.

This nation flipped out when we elected a Catholic President, and he was assassinated. We've had Jewish and Mormon candidates, and they were ruled out simply because of their religion. It's like nobody even cared what they were campaigning about. They simply became known as the Jewish and Mormon candidates.

This is ridiculous.

Posted by: ClandestineBlaze | August 19, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

How does one prove unequivocally that they belong to a particular religion (and that it is still currently the religion you espouse - I won't get into why eff it even matters.

Joel loved the kit, top of the list of my favorites, regulars and some newbies keeping me very amused.

Posted by: dmd3 | August 19, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

I think I'd like change my Boodle handle to *elitistover-educatedsmartypants* if RD doesn't mind.

Welcome, JohnDinHouston. Stick around, why don'tcha?

On the way home yesterday, I followed a car which had a license plate frame text crawl. It looked that the text was changeable, on this car it was a personal message about someone the owner had broken up with.

Generally I'm a fan of technology. The possibilities for road rage are enormous, though. Someone cut you off? Change your text, cut in front of them, let them know exactly what you think. *BOOM*

Or maybe it's just that I'm extrapolating my rush hour thoughts to everyone.

Posted by: -dbG- | August 19, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Dave, yeah, and they aren't frightening people either although that was what I was led to believe when I was a pre-teen Catholic growing up in the 60's. I was stunned to hear that the actually had the same 10 commandments. Some of them actually helped others in the community, as well.

Something else happened, I am now a member of a third church, not either the RC or Methodist churches. I think that is sort of a right of being an American and growing up to be an adult. You can pick your own religion or none at all.

The pancakes weren't that bad. There just were lots of them. They were like hosts for Methodists. They chewed.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 2:56 PM | Report abuse

Scary stuff.
Our only hope is that the irrational ideas of the 20% is exposed in election after election so the 80% can see these ideas for what they really are, ignorance born of the fear of anyone different.
Remember in the 2008 election when the woman called Obama a Muslim at the McCain rally and McCain couldn't bring himself to keep the hateful charade going any longer, publicly admitted that his opponent, although he disagreed with him, was a decent, well-meaning person. That kind of civility in public discourse needs to rise from the dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRq6Y4NmB6U

Posted by: minorthread | August 19, 2010 2:57 PM | Report abuse


Damn, I hate religious people, Muslims, Christians, it doesn't matter.

They're gullible, brainwashed idiots who believe stuff where there is absolutely no evidence.

Posted by: kenk3 | August 19, 2010 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Silly Scylla, your capslock key is stuck. Just so that you know.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 19, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

Ever notice that right-wing nutjobs have their CapsLock key permanently ON? The text equivelent to screaming, tea-party style. Somehow they think it makes them seem more intelligent.

Posted by: sux123 | August 19, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

I think the decision by the landmarks committee not to protect this building was done in bad faith and with political motivations. The building has been up for protection since the 1980s, but was never protected due to bureaucratic inefficiency.

It was only sold to the current owners because of the extensive damage it suffered on 9/11. It will be more violence to the New York City skyline if a mega-mosque is built here.

Posted by: person2 | August 19, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

I still would like to believe that this country has some of the smartest, most open-minded, people in the world. And that includes those that watch Fox News. However, I find this axiom severely tested when I look at some of these polls!

Posted by: thinkfirst1 | August 19, 2010 2:59 PM | Report abuse

The 20%Storm . . . whatdaya think?

Also, by my calculations I am a ZenDruidBaptist masquerading as a human being. I can levitate, conjure warts, and bake some mean buttermilk bisquits.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 3:00 PM | Report abuse

From WaPo, JAn. 25, 2005:

"Nearly half of the 500 African Americans surveyed said that HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, is man-made. The study, which was supported by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, appears in the Feb. 1 edition of the Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndromes.

More than one-quarter said they believed that AIDS was produced in a government laboratory, and 12 percent believed it was created and spread by the CIA."

----------------------

Does this mean black people are dumb?

Or, more likely, distrustful of government in general.

Posted by: drjcarlucci | August 19, 2010 3:01 PM | Report abuse

I dont kare what U say Obama is a Muslim and I noe beekuz I heerd it on the raydeeo.

Posted by: AdrianMole | August 19, 2010 3:01 PM | Report abuse

@shrieking denizen

A US pound is 16 oz.
A British pound is about $1.50.

I will say that if you've ever seen a wet bear, especially in the spring, they look like they're about 65% fur (and 15% teeth and claws).

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

People guessed wrong. It's not hard to believe. Obama's relatives are Muslim, his dad is Muslim, part of his life was lived in a Muslim country, his name even sound's Mideastern. He does not wear his religion on his sleeve like some Presidents (Reagan, Bush, Clinton). Attending Jeremiah's church or any church for that matter does not make him any more a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. Christians are known by their fruit or actions and so far, there's not alot of convincing evidence of him being devoted to true Christianity.

Posted by: phatter1 | August 19, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

You betcha. The dumbest people on earth, make no mistake about it.

Posted by: interactingdc | August 19, 2010 3:05 PM | Report abuse


Fri, 05/04/2007 - 16:55 ET

"According to a Rasmussen poll, just 39 percent of Democrats in this country say they are certain that President Bush did not know about the 9/11 attacks before they happened. Thirty-five percent of Democrats said they believe Bush did know, 26 percent are uncertain."

-----------------

So, the Dem % of nut jobs or dummies is higher than conservatives?


Posted by: drjcarlucci | August 19, 2010 3:06 PM | Report abuse

Dear Mr. Achenblog,

Tell me why this mosque's builders so adamantly refuse to consider any other location, sir, and I will examine your thesis more seriously,
but until then I will even more seriously entertain
the possibility that you might be a veritable cafeteria of flabby flabby piosities lacking edges,
and a person of spectacularly limited genius.

Posted by: hoya72 | August 19, 2010 3:07 PM | Report abuse

You have to go to first-hand sources. I was born into a Christian family, attended a Protestant church routinely while I grew up, but I was not particularly active.

My wife was born into a Jewish family. She and her family practiced actively less than my family did.

We have a son. I believe by Jewish tradition, the fact that his mother is a Jew makes him Jewish.

I don't really know. We are going to let him worship as he sees fit once he gets to the point where he can make a decision.

I had to know... is he a Jew? Is he a Christian?

I asked him. Are you Jewish, or are you Christian?

He looked at me, puzzled. His answer: "No, daddy. I am not Jewish. I am not Christian. I am Noah!"

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

phatter1, in your mind, what is "devoted to true Christianity" mean? Is Bush a Muslim based on that?

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

And we wonder why the U.S. is no longer number 1 at anything. Thanks to Fox News, Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, 20% of our population are morons.

Posted by: RedVox | August 19, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Unfortunately, sad to say, this might be an election which reaffirms H.L. Menken, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

However, it is every citizen's obligation to vote so that the wisdom of a majority of informed citizens overcomes the vocal minority of Fox News and Limburger dittoheads.

And, Thanks again to Justice Roberts (carrying on in the tradition of the post Civil War Supreme Court--which promulgated the canard that a corporation is a person) and his band of merry men for facilitating Ruppert Murdock's $1 million contribute to the Republican war chest confirming Fox News' role as house organ for the Republican Party.

Posted by: allan3 | August 19, 2010 3:11 PM | Report abuse

20% Huh? About the same amount of people (13-17% I belive was the actual number) who thought that the 1969 landing on the Moon by US astronats was faked. And 37% of Americans actually think George W. beat Al Gore in his last election. Who do you think keeps Fox News and the National Enquirer in business?

Posted by: oregonbirddog | August 19, 2010 3:11 PM | Report abuse

I never once in the last 10 years heard one single liberal, much less anyone else, EVER suggest that Bush planned 9/11. Certainly nobody remotely sane ever said it. To invoke that bizarre idea in order ot make it seem equivalent to the muslim nonsense is offensive and disgusting, carlucci. Ditto comparing to HIV paranoia. You're just trying to find half-assed ways to rationalize and excuse what even you don't believe.

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 3:12 PM | Report abuse

YES!! Proof? Just look at how easy it is for Newt, Sarah, and the right wing bloggers to excite the mob.

Remember the furor created by the Breitbart falsehoods (on Shirley Sherrod) which were amplified by the FOX network, Limbaugh and Beck?

Remember the furor created by Betsy McCaughey with her "death panels" whcih was amplified by Sarah Palin and the usual supects on the right!! When challenged on the Daily Show she couldn't show the language she was citing as proof.

Remember the ongoing BS from the "birthers", "deathers", and "tenthers"?

How about the rumor started by a professor at the Jim Jones University (A CHRISTIAN school -- allegedly) claiming John McCain had an illegitimate black daughter?

The right wing is exemplified by its family values leadership -- who also happen to be serial adulterers. Yet, the faithful follow and adore them.

Posted by: Freethotlib | August 19, 2010 3:13 PM | Report abuse

On a normal bell curve for intelligence with the majority in the middle representing those with 'normal' IQs (100+), guess where this 20 percent belongs.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 3:13 PM | Report abuse

@hoya72

Could it be because they OWN most of the land that the proposed rec center/mosque will be built on? To my knowledge, no one has yet proposed giving them comparable real estate somewhere else in Manhattan.

At the risk of being a cynical capitalist, let me remind you that the person in question is a real estate developer (as well as a Muslim). I would be much less sanguine about having a real estate developer living next to me than a mosque. He is most certainly aware of how negotiations work--especially for controversial developments such as this.

I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that as soon as Bloomberg offers him more valuable land, he will "grudgingly" agree to move the site of his proposed development.

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 3:14 PM | Report abuse

it's not that americans are idiots but when you have slanted mis-information continuously being fed to us 24/7 by a television station that is posing as a "new" organization and the same message is being corroborated by websites, talk radio, even GOP operatives..someone might assume that if they are all saying it then it must be true.
If you lie enough about something some will end up believing it.

Posted by: richmonet | August 19, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

if so many can wrap themselves in the Stars and Stripes while simultaneously flying the Confederate flag and venerating the leaders of the Confederacy they are capable of believing anything? Perhaps it doesn't occur to them that had the Confederacy succeed they wouldn't have the Stars and Stripes to wrap themselves in or that it was the Stars and Stripes that crushed the objects of their veneration.

Posted by: rds7481 | August 19, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

"People believe Obama is Muslim because he was a practicing Muslim"

I once practiced flute, too, but that doesn't mean I'm now a flautist.

And my boss, who is definitely a flautist and a picoloist also too, will have your tin ear removed and mounted if you should call me one.

So there!

Posted by: j3hess | August 19, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

The argument that Obama is Muslim because his father was takes this to a whole new level. This is the equivalence of the "one drop" rule for racial identification. So, evidently, to such people it doesn't much matter what he believes, he is Muslim because he was born that way. Which means that to such people this isn't an argument about belief or religious identification, it's an argument about racial purity. Thanks for clearing that up.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 3:18 PM | Report abuse

kelleypb

I do not believe that is true if his father formerly renounced Islam, its not that you can not quit, its just it can get you killed. In any case, if the President is a Christian as he says, then its that religion's rules which matter, not Islam's. I doubt seriously that the 20% who think he is Muslim are aware of this rule.

BTW I too suspect that the people answering the poll are using the claim that he is a Muslim to indicate their distrust of him on a wide range of issues. He doesn't agree with them, and since he is not obviously immoral, he must be some sort of other to have such evil beliefs.

Posted by: Muddy_Buddy_2000 | August 19, 2010 3:21 PM | Report abuse

Wow, I love it when everything goes all caps and multiple punctuation marks.

Psychodelic, man.

Didn't someone once say that you'd never go broke by underestimating the American Public?

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 19, 2010 3:21 PM | Report abuse

Americans are most certainly stupid. Not all Americans but a good portion. People vote against their best interests to follow party lines. People in this country also treat education as an elitist thing. We are a country of idiots. Look at the reality shows and other garbage we entertain ourselves with. Its not hard to tell we are a country of dummies, this poll just gave us additional proof.

Posted by: KingJoffeJoffer | August 19, 2010 3:22 PM | Report abuse

bluewinterwaves -
You may also then agree that the "churchs" of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell not close to being "Christian" either, based on their intolerance and bigotry.

Posted by: pjohn2 | August 19, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

RD, muslim is the new black. His father was black, his mother white? He is black. His father was muslim, his mother christian? He is muslim.

I LOVE the arguments: His father was muslim, he once lived in a muslim country. He once went to a muslim-run school.

Of course, he never knew his father, and he lived in Indonesia and went to school when he was 5.

Since then he has lived in a country of christians raised by christians and practiced christianity.

It matters not.

Oh, if my life was predetermined from when I was five! I woulda been the bestest Evil Kneivel ever!

Particularly dismaying is the outright refusal of people to at least admit that they are crazy using this argument.

It is simple. Insert fingers in ears and holler.

La la la la la I can't hear you la la la la la he is a muslim la la la la la la la and a marxist la la la la la la and I hate him la la la la la la and he hates us all and wants us dead la la la la la.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

What percentage of these people believe that Obama is a covert Muslim while professing to be a Christian?

If Obama is a great communicator, why can't he convince people that he is not a Muslim?

It is easy to say that people who have different views from you are stupid.

Posted by: Desertstraw | August 19, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Thank you, RD, for addressing the abhorrent nature of that logic.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

I haven't heard from any of the mental midgets who believe this nonsense why being a Muslim would be a bad thing in the first place.

George Bush is a Christian - look what HE did to the country.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Is "disingenuous leftist ideologue" available as a boodle handle?

drjcarlucci, do you really think things would be better if your man McCain had been elected? Do you think the Party of No would have provided funding to the states to keep police and teachers employed?

Posted by: Raysmom | August 19, 2010 3:26 PM | Report abuse

On a normal bell curve for intelligence with the majority in the middle representing those with 'normal' IQs (100+), guess where this 20 percent belongs.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76

--------------

They're all journalists?

Posted by: JAH3 | August 19, 2010 3:30 PM | Report abuse

drjcarlucci says "If Obama is a great communicator, why can't he convince people that he is not a Muslim?"

Check out the number of posters who are saying he's a liar. Please tell me how you would convince these people?

Posted by: Raysmom | August 19, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

Under Sharia law, a child fathered by a Muslim is, in fact a Muslim.

If a Muslim denounces his religion, that act is punishable by Death.

Hmmmmm……There is never a whack job Islamist around when ya’ really need one. Shucks!


Posted by: rexreddy | August 19, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

You want proof that Americans are stupid. MSNBC.com has a recipe for making homemade Twinkies that ostensibly taste just like the real thing (which requires lard, among other ingredients). Why would I want to make a homemade Twinkie? Putting aside questions of taste, is an hour of my time not worth more than the $1.99 it costs to buy the "real" thing?

And on the food issue, I've seen tv clips of Obama eating both pork BBQ and bacon. Wouldn't that be problematic if he was practicing Muslim (to say nothing of obviously not fasting during Ramadan etc.)? Don't let the facts get in the way of a conspiracy theory.

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

DNA_Girl, the Sinfest was perfect. Thanks for the link.

Eyeballs, we are in it for the eyeballs! And it's working today.

Posted by: slyness | August 19, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

"Christians are known by their fruit or actions and so far, there's not alot of convincing evidence of him being devoted to true Christianity."

You mean actions such as, caring for the sick, like in health care reform?

Posted by: j3hess | August 19, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

Raysmom, to approximate a quote of Representative Weiner, 'if you think that it is a good idea, then vote yes. If you think that it is bad, then vote no.'

To answer your question, 'No.'

I think, no. McCain voted No almost at every juncture, except in the first bailout/recovery.

Look what's happening to the stock market and jobs since it became evident that we can't continue the stimulus. This is McCain Territory. We are heading to the big crush if we don't do something now.

Why the Republicans thought that it was such a good idea to cause this, just to gain some control is beyond me.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 3:35 PM | Report abuse

baldinho, you crack me up.

KJJ, judging by the enormous series of "Dummies" books out there, you are hardly the first to call the US 'a nation of dummies.'

RD, it's frequently about purity of some sort. Remember Dick Cheney and his fer-us-or-agin-us logic?

Posted by: MsJS | August 19, 2010 3:35 PM | Report abuse

If Obama is a great communicator, why can't he convince people that he is not a Muslim?

Posted by: Desertstraw
===========================
People that buy into bizarre conspiracy theories are never dissuaded from their cherished beliefs by facts or evidence - what makes you think oratory would do it?

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 3:36 PM | Report abuse

Right now in America "Muslim" equates to "someone I don't like" and "someone who is not American" so what I think these people are really saying is that they don't like Obama and view him as un-American. This also explains why people, and probably the same people, have claimed Obama is a socialist - he's just plain un-American to them. The irony here is that the "un-American" Obama is the one defending the basic American right to freely practice the religion of your choice while those who oppose him have shown they don't really understand their Constitution and what it means to be American in the first place.
__________________--
I believe the second amendment is the only one they recognize. The others, well, they interpret as multiple choice questions. As hard as conservatives fought, on patriotic and constitutional grounds, for all Americans to have the right to bear an Uzi in the year 2010, they can't seem to get their heads wrapped around #1 and #14 and want to change it. What happened to their firm patriotic and constitutional beliefs? Hmmm, I just wonder. Maybe they just count that high. Who knows?

Posted by: sassafrasnewport | August 19, 2010 3:37 PM | Report abuse

True Christianity is not attending Church. Especially one where the pastor speaks hatred. It's what you do and who you are individually outside the four walls of the Church.

I'm sorry, russianthistle but it didn't matter what religion Bush was devoted to. People believe Bush was a Christian because it was publicized by the media from what they saw of him. The same with Clinton.

Posted by: phatter1 | August 19, 2010 3:37 PM | Report abuse

Wow, everyone settled into the bunker? All of you "ilk?" I love that word. Ilk. It carries a subtle implication of defective issue or (better) barbarian hordes.

"Me and my ilk will storm your embattlements and lay waste to your village!"

Steve Benen's 11:15 post this morning in The Washington Monthly blog, has this illustrative point:

"Ben Smith suggested something similar, speculating that "telling a pollster that Obama is a Muslim is just another way of expressing disapproval." From the Pew report:

Beliefs about Obama's religion are closely linked to political judgments about him. Those who say he is a Muslim overwhelmingly disapprove of his job performance, while a majority of those who think he is a Christian approve of the job Obama is doing. Those who are unsure about Obama's religion are about evenly divided in their views of his performance." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/

In other words, people who don't like Obama are using "Muslim" as an epithet, not as a statement of fact. Just like some (like minded) people label things they don't like as "gay."

So, 20% of us are necessarily morons, we're just jerks.

Posted by: jp1954 | August 19, 2010 3:40 PM | Report abuse

If Obama is a great communicator, why can't he convince people that he is not a Muslim?

Posted by: Desertstraw
===========================
People that buy into bizarre conspiracy theories are never dissuaded from their cherished beliefs by facts or evidence - what makes you think oratory would do it?

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 3:36 PM |

And why, pray tell, would anyone waste their time trying to convince a nutjob of anything?

Posted by: sassafrasnewport | August 19, 2010 3:40 PM | Report abuse

rexready, you're the first idiot on here this afternoon that made me mad. Enough of that!

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 3:40 PM | Report abuse

On a normal bell curve for intelligence with the majority in the middle representing those with 'normal' IQs (100+), guess where this 20 percent belongs.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76

--------------

They're all journalists?

Posted by: JAH3
=====================
LOL Well, so far I haven't seen anything from reputable journalists indicating they believe this Muslim hogwash, but you never know. Maybe I need to watch more Fox News.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 3:40 PM | Report abuse

bluewinterfantasies:
"Not a single member of the public can say with 100% certainty whether Obama is or isn't a Muslim (and that includes you reporters)."

And not a single member of the public can say with 100% certainty whether you are a child molestor or not. It certainly doesn't matter. You sound like a horse's patoot Tea Bigot to me, meaning you hate America, the Constitution and anyone else not rich, white and religiously disabled.

Posted by: 2229 | August 19, 2010 3:42 PM | Report abuse

dbG, Re: your 2:55 PM, I have often wished for a custom text sign positioned just at the bottom of my back windshield so I could tell other drivers exactly what I thought of them. Bonus, maybe one with backwards text at the bottom of the front windshield so you can tell the guy crawling in front of you to get out of the fast lane. Can you tell I drive interstates a lot? lol.

btw, for those of you keeping score:

We are up to 4 repetitions of that HL Mencken quote about American intelligence in this boodle. One is a double-post though, so I'm unsure if that counts.

Spectacularly creative Joel-bashing by wing-nuts award goes to:

a veritable cafeteria of flabby flabby piosities lacking edges

runner-up:
a ZIONIST-TROJAN-HORSE-MUTT-PUPPET

Wow. I'm really impressed. If someone had said either of those to me in person I'd probably have burst out laughing. Clearly this is your inner internet troll voice talking.

Have a good day, all!

Posted by: MoftheMountain | August 19, 2010 3:45 PM | Report abuse

Ilk is a great word, though few know its real significance.

Posted by: Yoki | August 19, 2010 3:46 PM | Report abuse

The percentage of Democrat crazies is far higher than conservative crazies. Timothy McVeigh was an avowed agnostic, for instance, but there are still a lot of libs who think he was a Christian fundamentalist. So sure, there are a lot of American numbskulls.

Posted by: ThisIsReality | August 19, 2010 3:46 PM | Report abuse

The percentage of Democrat crazies is far higher than conservative crazies. Timothy McVeigh was an avowed agnostic, for instance, but there are still a lot of libs who think he was a Christian fundamentalist. So sure, there are a lot of American numbskulls.

Posted by: ThisIsReality | August 19, 2010 3:49 PM | Report abuse

Why would anyone think "Rev." Wright is a Christian?

Posted by: OldNavyMan | August 19, 2010 3:50 PM | Report abuse

Desertstraw:
"It is easy to say that people who have different views from you are stupid."

No, I save my label of "stupid" for people like you, who believe in a lie when there is zero evidence in your favor. All evidence, including Obama's birth certificate which was released by Hawaii's REPUBLICAN governor, are ignored by the stupid and the christian disabled extremists.

Nasty fascists who hate America: that's the Tea Racists, the new Confederate redneck thug for the 21st century.

Let's see how you do in the election. I'm sure Americans are just DYING to elect some more ignorant babbling incompetents like Bachman and Boehner, moron Congresspeople who want to alter the Constitution and do away with religious freedom.

Posted by: 2229 | August 19, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

The percentage of Democrat crazies is far higher than conservative crazies.

Posted by: ThisIsReality
======================
Based on...?

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 3:52 PM | Report abuse

SCCC ALERT!!

CORRECTION FORTHCOMING, AS FOLLOWS:

This statement: "So, 20% of us are necessarily morons, we're just jerks."

Is Hereby Changed to: "So, 20% of us aren't necessarily morons, we're just jerks."

Apologies for the confusion. As you were.

CowTown

Posted by: jp1954 | August 19, 2010 3:52 PM | Report abuse

phatter1, the main reason I left the Roman Catholic church was because it was preaching hatred, death and destruction during the Vietnam Ware era, so I buy in on your hatred point.

By the way, are you referring to Obama's former pastor when you indicate that pastors are speaking of hatred? If so, it would be worth your while to listen to the whole sermon that lit everyone up originally. Wright didn't do anyone any favors once he started getting on TV, but the sermon, itself was no more offensive (actually a fantastic speech) than many others that I have heard delivered from pulpits.

It was easy to misrepresent and clip up, but the message was a basic message of Christianity. We serve the Lord and not the State. The State can be wrong. The Lord is not wrong. If you have a half an hour, listen to the whole thing.

The sermon was presented to a largely black congregation and, with that in mind, speaks to their perspective.

Also phatter, much has been made about Obama's meetings with a "radical black" in Hawaii when he was growing up. If you want to know what it was like for blacks growing up in Hawaii during those days, feel free to ask me. I'm not black, but I saw what happened to a lot of blacks in the 50th state. They were denied housing and fair treatment. Hawaii, the so called melting pot, wasn't as understanding as one might think.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Here's a link to the Pew Research Center with more information on the poll itself.

http://people-press.org/report/645/

Posted by: Skowronek | August 19, 2010 3:54 PM | Report abuse

@phatter1, who wrote: "Christians are known by their fruit or actions and so far, there's not alot of convincing evidence of him [President Obama] being devoted to true Christianity."

The same could be said of many Christians in America. Yet we don't call them Muslims.

Posted by: hitpoints | August 19, 2010 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Of course Americans are stupid. They only go to school 170days a year and only 30% are qualified to be ready for college from high school education. They even voted Obama , Pelosi, Reid in the the white house and congress. And there are people who support amnesty for illegals and agree on putting the Mosque near 9/11 site. Average Americans are so ignorant about the world affairs, the only thing they are interested from the early age is sex,drugs and alcohol and welfare money. What happened to the hard working , sacrificing citizens of this nation and we became the hostage to unions,gays,illegals and finally Muslims. Any one have any question about whether this country is going to last 20years from now? I feel like throwing up.

Posted by: chaemoondriver | August 19, 2010 3:57 PM | Report abuse

I don't suppose it would do any good to point out to any and all of those who claim that muslim law or Sharia law isn't generally applicable here, since we don't use. The guy spent 20 or 30 years sitting in a church (in this country), of his own free will. I don't suppose that counts for anything.

No, didn't think so. What's that old chestnut? "There's an old saying: teaching the pig to dance is a waste of your time and it just irritates the pig." (Source: Sen. Fred Thompson, R-Doink-doink)

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 3:58 PM | Report abuse

The Marist July 4th poll: 40% of the 18-29 age group couldn't answer the question of what nation the U.S. won its independence from. 33% of women couldn't answer it, and 44% of non-whites couldn't answer it. Those 3 groups (the young, the female, and the non-white) who did the worst in the poll are the core groups of Obama's support. So yes, a lot of Americans are numbskulls and the majority of numbskulls voted for Obama.

Posted by: ThisIsReality | August 19, 2010 3:58 PM | Report abuse

The problem with misinformation comes from writers like this one who refuse to discuss who is spreading the falsehoods. This media outlet and other so called main stream media outlets refuse to hold the liars accountable. It's not hard to figure out where the information comes from but the editors here participate in misinforming the public. If the liars that appear on Fox every day were held accountable innuendo and out right lies might not permeate the population. Name the lying liars that spread these lies and let them defend themselves.

Posted by: vw52 | August 19, 2010 3:58 PM | Report abuse

Why would anyone think "Rev." Wright is a Christian?

Posted by: OldNavyMan
=====================
He may not conform to your view of Christianity, just as Pat Robertson doesn't conform to mine. But whatever you think of Wright he is certainly not a Muslim. I say that because those opposed to Obama have claimed - simultaneously - that he is both a follower of Rev. Wright AND a Muslim. Can't be both. If you're going to engage in ad hominem attacks you should at least be consistent.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 3:59 PM | Report abuse

Yoki, don't leave me hanging. You have more information on the origin or signifigance of "ilk?" Please share!

Posted by: jp1954 | August 19, 2010 3:59 PM | Report abuse

fixie:

I don't think "Rev." Wright is a Christian.

corrected Posted by: OldNavyMan | August 19, 2010 3:50 PM

if you want to make a case, that's fine, as well.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 3:59 PM | Report abuse

Let's cut to the chase here. Too many people on the right wing of this country and in the Republican party are bigots. The supported people like Strom Thurmond or Jesse Helms for years because they were powerful white guys who helped make their white supporters feel good about their prejudices.
Nowadays, in the 21st century, it's not so acceptable to be openly racist. So instead of saying "I don't like that a black man is the leader of the free world", these 20% have found it easier to say "I think he's a muslim." The Republican party catered to these racists for the last 40 years, and they are doing the same now.
The good news is that as the USA continues to grow and become more educated and diverse, the Republican party will continue to shrink and lose influence.

Posted by: wbowers | August 19, 2010 4:00 PM | Report abuse

When issues such as these arise I always wonder how men like Frank Capra or Norman Rockwell would portray the arguement. I might be wrong but my guess is that they would come down on the side of tolerance and the law.

Posted by: bad2628 | August 19, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

let's see, poll showed 10% of muslims supported 9/11 terrorists, that's 120 million people. then we have fort hood massacre, murder in little rock, bomber in new york, and then mosque overlooking ground zero, and then the son of a muslim son of kenya telling us all to shut up and that he alone knows the bill of rights. and you call suspicious, angry, frightened folks numbskulls. you guys are some piece of work!

Posted by: jibe | August 19, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

Why would anyone think "Rev." Wright is a Christian?
Posted by: OldNavyMan
----------------------------------

Based on the Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, Rush L., Dick Cheney etc. etc. Christians out there, I would say he's a stellar example of what passes for a Christain these days.

Posted by: sux123 | August 19, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

There were those pesky national intelligence briefings saying that terrorists were determined to use airplanes to attack targets in the U.S.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/15/bush.sept.11/index.html

His official denial is the most careful and specifically worded weasel statement since Bill Clinton defined sexual relations to exclude oral sex:

"Had my administration had any information that terrorists were going to attack New York City on September the 11th, we would have acted."

Maybe they had information terrorists were going to attack on September 10th and got complacent.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 4:03 PM | Report abuse

The jerks theory is probably accurate. There are at least two levels of jerks, though. One level has at least some thought that they aren't jerks. They rail against muslims. The other level revels in it. To them, reading a few boards, the bad folks are "muzzies".

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 4:07 PM | Report abuse

Is ilk the plural of elk?

Posted by: -pj- | August 19, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

yellojkt is really John Ashcroft's ex-brother-in-law. That's funny, but it isn't funny. But I Laugh.

See you guys.

jkt, this is for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woLQI8X2R6Y

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has a duck name, it might be a duck!

Posted by: jack29 | August 19, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has a duck name, it might be a duck!

Posted by: jack29 | August 19, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

I thought the plural of elk was elke.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

Is ilk the plural of elk?

Posted by: -pj- | August 19, 2010 4:08 PM

Hmmm, that would explain the antlers headgear, perhaps.

I'm still waiting for Yoki to enlighten us.


CowTown

Posted by: jp1954 | August 19, 2010 4:11 PM | Report abuse

bigot, bigot, bigot... let's just fling Pokemon slanders and pretend anyone opposed to Obama is a bigot. What fun!

Meanwhile in the real world, Americans believe Obama is Muslim because he was a practicing Muslim. This matters because Obama is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion-- who (under sharia law) is subject to the most severe penalties. Obama's apostate status clearly has enormous implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.

Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
http://www.danielpipes.org/5354/confirmed-barack-obama-practiced-islam

In sum: The cited evidence demonstrates that Obama was an irregularly practicing Muslim who rarely or occasionally prayed with his step-father in a mosque. This evidence precisely substantiates the fact that Obama (for some years) had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father.

Therefore, what Leftists consider a media falsehood is in fact confirmed by evidence as truthful and accurate. The fact that so few understand this about Obama is a testimony to the Obamedia puppets disinformation and denial campaigns.

Denying Obama's Muslim heritage is in itself a falsehood.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 4:14 PM | Report abuse


I have a theory on this. It's a way to be hateful and racist and get away with it. He goes to church, he says he's a Christian, his kids are baptized--for most people that's evidence that they are Christians. To keep saying "He's a Muslim"--with no evidence--is just cruel. And a lot of people in this country get off on being cruel to people with dark skin. 1 in 5 sounds about right.

By the way, I admire the man and think he's doing a good job under very difficult circumstances.

Posted by: JoninNE | August 19, 2010 4:15 PM | Report abuse

One disastrous effect of Obama's status as a Muslim apostate was the way it emboldens Islamo-supremacists.

Take the case of Kaddafi; who clearly insists that Obama is a Muslim and hopes "that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity... and that America will establish relations that will serve it well with other peoples, especially the Arabs."

Apparently, Kaddafi got his wish in Obama's submissiveness to the Lockerbie bomber release.
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/26/did-the-obama-administration-push-for-lockerbie-bombers-release/

Kaddafi will celebrate that odious anniversary with Megrahi tomorrow.
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/08/15/gadafis-son-to-throw-party-for-lockerbie-bomber/

Thank you, Hussein.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

Front page, huh? Ah well, Joel needs the eyeballs.

Thanks to all, new and old, who are trying to counter today's wingnuts (of all persuasions)with logic, analysis and (gulp) humor.

RD, thanks once again for boiling down the "racial purity" or "one drop" argument - if his dad was Muslim he is too. That's what that looked like to me as well.

Bears. They told us on vacation last week that the bears got so bad, even folks in town chained up their trash cans.

Time to retrieve the Boy and hear about the first day of High School.

Posted by: Ivansmom | August 19, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

The answer to your question is a resounding YES.

Americans are nitwits and morons.

Next question?

Posted by: fclacher | August 19, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

??? these folks are connecting dots that aren't on the same piece of paper. WOW!!! Tin foil time. I think we all need to apologize to BP again.

Posted by: russianthistle | August 19, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Obviously Obama is an Budhist-atheist, pretending to be a Christian to make 20% of Americans think he may be Muslim - it's all part of his evil plot to hide that fact that he was not born in the USA, but, in fact, in Tibet and his parents were aliens from another galaxy. A galaxy that Sarah Palin could actually see from her home in Alaska (only at night, of course). I know all this because I have tea-partier friends who keep emailing this stuff.

Posted by: sux123 | August 19, 2010 4:24 PM | Report abuse

It's getting so cut-and-paste heavy around here that I feel like I'm back in a first grade craft class. Here, all of you with the same message ad nauseum . . . some blunt-nosed scissors. I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 4:24 PM | Report abuse

In other news, the Nats beat the Braves 6-2 and Roger Clemens got indicted for being a jerk, I mean, for lying to Congress, among other things..

Posted by: -pj- | August 19, 2010 4:28 PM | Report abuse

The stupidity lies in Obama cultists who can't (or won't) remove their blinkers long enough to look squarely and objectively at the question.

One need not accept the Muslim point of view to understand that is how they regard Obama. Looking at it from their religious perspective, Obama is (objectively) an apostate Muslims.

That simple fact is not open to denial.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 4:28 PM | Report abuse

The stupidity lies in Obama cultists who can't (or won't) remove their blinkers long enough to look squarely and objectively at the question.

One need not accept the Muslim point of view to understand that is how they regard Obama. Looking at it from their religious perspective, Obama is (objectively) an apostate Muslim.

That simple fact is not open to denial.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 4:28 PM | Report abuse

KaddafiDelendaEst, quoting hacks like Daniel Pipes and HotAir will impress your wingnut friends. Here on the Achenblog, we like facts, not convoluted suppositions interspaced with juxtaposed quasi-related references and black-box "you fill in the blanks" inferences.

Posted by: jp1954 | August 19, 2010 4:29 PM | Report abuse

He was a practicing Muslim.... when he was 3.

Think that over.

You folks are adults. You say that being brought to a place of worship when you are 3 forever cements your political and religious ideology.

That is what you are saying.

That is absurd.

Just admit it.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 4:31 PM | Report abuse

Americans include very many of the greatest scientific and creative minds on the planet. (USA! USA!) But the bottom half of our populace I am certain is quite a bit dumber than the dumbest half of Scandinavians, Germans, French, Swiss, Dutch, Brits, Canadians, Japanese, S. Koreans, etc. Possibly even Russians and Chinese as well.

Partly this is because ours is a more laissez-faire culture than are those of almost all of the other industrialized nations. It relates to us being at the pinnacle of "rugged individualism", "self-reliance", and, in our minds, anyway, "freedom". In America we leave people alone to find their own place, be that place one of success or failure, moreso than do the other industrialized nations with more of a sense of shared responsibility, community, and national cohesion.

If you get sick and want and can afford the very best care anywhere, we let you get it; if you can't afford care, we let you die. If you want to economically exploit less talented or capable people and get ever more obscenely rich while their lives get ever harder, we let you. If you can't compete or just get beaten down until you give up, we let you, and let you get kicked aside.

If you are able to and want to scale to the highest levels of education on the globe, America is the place to do it.

And if you want to stay just as dumb as dirt, we let you do that, too.

Wingnuts who decry a supposed "nanny state" don't know what intrusive government really is. In America, sink or swim, in thousands of ways it's entirely your choice. If you choose to wallow in ignorance -- which obviously very many millions do -- go for it! We'll even let you "home-school". Indoctrinate your budding little new citizens in any provincialism, rabidly partisan polemics, and anti-scientific mythological dogma you want, because here we are all about the individual freedom, baby! (**waves flag**)

Of course, with even the most wonderful and cherished national virtues there are a few unfortunate side effects. When you combine the stupidity (including xenophobia) that we have here at at such epidemic levels, with a military budget that almost matches the rest of the world's combined, it's understandable if some anxiety exists beyond our borders. After all, our poorly educated and worse-informed voters already proved in 2000 and 2004, to head-spinning effect, what the American electorate is capable of. And what our presidential elections mean globally.

The frightening level of stupidity in America's dumbest 50 percentile, paired with our sole-hyperpower status, scares the rest of the world so much, in fact, that now they rush to give us Nobel Prizes just for not doing that again.

Which is amusing. But I don't blame them. And I do like prizes!

Posted by: blacklightposter | August 19, 2010 4:32 PM | Report abuse

According to todays ABCNEWS.COM "The developers behind the Islamic center planned for a site near Ground Zero won't rule out accepting financing from the Mideast -- including from Saudi Arabia and Iran -- as they begin searching for $100 million needed to build the project."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Politics/islamic-center-backers-rule-taking-funds-saudi-arabia/story?id=11429998

Perhaps the 70% of the people in this country who question the location of the proposed mosque may wonder why a center of peace and reconciliation would consider taking money from a country that denies the Holocaust ever happened, has called for the annihilation of the State of Israel, and is a police State that stole an election. Perhaps the American people are not that dumb afterall.

Posted by: mjkoch* | August 19, 2010 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Let me just say from the outset that I think that anyone who believes in this religion claptrap, whether he or she be Christian, Muslim, Hindu or otherwise (although, I do cut the Buddhists some slack) is partially deranged. But, I had to comment on this little bit of "wisdom" by some nut named Kellypb:

"Hey Joel, it's you who are the numbskull. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of the Quran knows that Obama is a Muslim under Islamic law. If you don't believe me, refer to this quote in the NEW YORK TIMES: "As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant."

*****

Query, Kelleypb, does it matter what HE thinks he is under AMERICAN law? Also, what part of Texas are you from? I'm betting Galveston.

Posted by: chert | August 19, 2010 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Of course Americans are numbskulls they voted for Obama despite the fact that he was an empty suit.

Posted by: norsit77 | August 19, 2010 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Dear baldino:

It may be absurd, but it is Islam.

Posted by: jack29 | August 19, 2010 4:34 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps the 70% of the people in this country who question the location of the proposed mosque may wonder why a center of peace and reconciliation would consider taking money from a country that denies the Holocaust ever happened, has called for the annihilation of the State of Israel, and is a police State that stole an election. Perhaps the American people are not that dumb afterall.

-------------------------
Don't know about you, but I would take money from just about anyone - I can argue with them about their views - Afterwards.

Posted by: sux123 | August 19, 2010 4:37 PM | Report abuse

@blacklightposter,fclacher-Well said!

KadafiDelendaEst=American Numbskull

Posted by: ArmchairGM | August 19, 2010 4:39 PM | Report abuse

[baldinho lied: "He was a practicing Muslim.... when he was 3."]

Obama was a nominally practicing Muslim while living with his step-father in Indonesia from 1967-1971. Here is his 4th grade picture in the madrassas in 1971.
http://www.danielpipes.org/5354/confirmed-barack-obama-practiced-islam

Admit it... Obama cultists simply don't know (or hope to deny) the facts.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 4:44 PM | Report abuse

@chert- It's funny how some posters such as Kellypb apparently came on here today to prove Achenbach absolutely correct.

It's as though Kellypb said "I'm not a total numbskull and I going get on here and show Achenbach that.....I am an....idiot.

Posted by: ArmchairGM | August 19, 2010 4:45 PM | Report abuse

It's a shame, but we are drifting ever closer to "Idiocracy". The vast majority are C students or below.

Posted by: ericroks | August 19, 2010 4:46 PM | Report abuse

Correction-
KhaddafiDelendaEst-TOTAL American numbskull.

Posted by: ArmchairGM | August 19, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Jack29, I gotcha!

Because some interpretation of a holy book say so doesn't make it so............. it only makes it so in the minds of people that have convinced themselves that the holy book is sacred and therefore it must be so.

One has to accept it... using free will.... to make it truth. At that point it is only truth to you.

Obama doesn't believe it. Few if any Americans do or should. Only doofuses do.

SCC: doofi.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

This Administration came to power on a campaign that Bush and Americans are "Stupid".

Since taking power Obama has successfully polarized the nation on literally every issue. His divisive rhetoric, policies and programs are purposeful. He is fully committed to a socialistic social agenda that reflects a world view that does not see value in the individual nor in American exceptionalism. His policies are the essence of mediocrity - the end game of political correctness.

From the get-go, Obama has shown a clear detachment, if not outright contempt, to the American people, spirit and constitution. Obama is a socialist ideologue - married to his leftist, anti-business beliefs, dismissive of dissent, an incompetent leader who took 18 months to pass (and came close to failing in doing so) an unwanted and costly government health program through a Pelosi led Congress. He turned 100 years of established bankruptcy law on its head. He nationalized the student loan industry. Obama has alienated all but the left in America, our "allies" see him as unreliable and our enemies as waffling, weak and gullible. Obama's narcissism - and his constant belittling of America's former President - is tiring and, in the long-term, just drains America's spirit and encourages those of our enemies.

November can't come soon enough!

Posted by: 2012frank | August 19, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Barack Obama's father was Muslim and therefore (according to Islamic law) so is Obama. In spite of the Quranic verses explaining that there is no compulsion in religion, a Muslim child takes the religion of his or her father... for Muslims around the world, non-American Muslims at any rate, they can only ever see Barack Hussein Obama as a Muslim.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/02/the-arabs-and-o.php

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 4:50 PM | Report abuse

The origins of the term ground zero began with the Manhattan Project and the bombing of Japan. The Oxford English Dictionary, citing the use of the term in a 1946 New York Times report on the destroyed city of Hiroshima, defines "ground zero" as "that part of the ground situated immediately under an exploding bomb, especially an atomic one."

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Correction-
KhaddafiDelendaEst-INSISTENT Total American Numbskull.

Posted by: ArmchairGM | August 19, 2010 4:55 PM | Report abuse

*ducking to avoid the flying spittle*

Posted by: Raysmom | August 19, 2010 4:56 PM | Report abuse

I’d also like to point out how bigotted, ignorant and intolerant it is of Leftists to condemn the spiritual perspective of Muslims who faithfully obey Islam by recognizing Obama as a Muslim apostate.

By what authority do these Leftists excommunicate (takfir) devout jihadists when they enforce the sharia fatwas, endorsed by the Corboba House sharia law advocates?

Again, the prerogative to issue apostacy fatwas is granted only to Islam’s prophet, or authoritative representatives of the Ummah— which are Leftists invoking?

Have Cordoba House’s handlers in the Apartheid Kingdom of Saudi Arabia or the Muslim Brotherhood approved these anti-Muslim fatwas?

Don’t take my word for it: Apostacy fatwas are absolutely Islamic across every major school of Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Own it, Obama cultists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 4:58 PM | Report abuse

I will bet that the vast majority of those who believe Obama is a Muslim listen to Fox News or Rush Limbaugh. This goes to show how damaging these outlets are to truth and rational decision making in the country.

Posted by: cdierd1944 | August 19, 2010 5:01 PM | Report abuse

I will bet that the vast majority of those who believe Obama is a Muslim listen to Fox News or Rush Limbaugh. This goes to show how damaging these outlets are to truth and rational decision making in the country.

Posted by: cdierd1944 | August 19, 2010 5:01 PM | Report abuse

I will bet that the vast majority of those who believe Obama is a Muslim listen to Fox News or Rush Limbaugh. This goes to show how damaging these outlets are to truth and rational decision making in the country.

Posted by: cdierd1944 | August 19, 2010 5:01 PM | Report abuse

1776
"Americans are Yankee Doodles (fools)." - British Royals

1783
Americans finish throwing off British tyranny.

2010
"Can Americans be that dumb?" -- elitist Leftist columnists

2010 - 2012
Leftists voted out of office.

(Ah, we have a pattern of underestimation here.)

Posted by: RealTexan1 | August 19, 2010 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Had a Muslim father. Lived in a Muslim country. Has made offensive and derogatory remarks about the Bible. Sat under the teaching of a racist, anti-American preacher for 20 years. Has criticised America in front of Muslim gatherings in foreign lands. Has condemned Americans as being anti-Muslim because of their opposition to an Islamic shrine at 9/11, even though moderate American and Canadian Muslims are also opposed to it. Etc, etc, etc.

Is it any wonder so many Americans think that Obama may be a Muslim?

Posted by: paulinni | August 19, 2010 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Don not feed the right wing trolls, for they know not of what they speak -- at least, not without quoting other right wing trolls.

Posted by: SportzNut21 | August 19, 2010 5:06 PM | Report abuse

President Bush's approval rating when he left office averaged 31% among major pollsters. Therefore, the number of Amurrican who think that Jesus rode dinosaurs, Saddam attacked us on 9/11, or Obama is a Muslim doesn't surprise me one bit. The average Amurrican is dumber than a bag of doorknobs.

Posted by: h0db | August 19, 2010 5:07 PM | Report abuse

Today Americans are ruled by propaganda. Americans have little regard for truth, little access to it, and little ability to recognize it.

Truth is an unwelcome entity. It is disturbing. It is off limits. Those who speak it run the risk of being branded “anti-American,” “anti-Semite” or “conspiracy theorist.”

Truth is an inconvenience for government and for the interest groups whose campaign contributions control government. The American media does not serve the truth. It serves the government and the interest groups that empower the government.

Posted by: ardestani | August 19, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

Well I can understand why some people think he is or are unclear. His father was Muslim. He knows the customs well like who to bow to. He has made statements that we are no longer a christian nation, and even being in Wright's church for as many years as he attended, when it came out how negative Wright's messages were, he distanced himself saying that he hadn't noticed...so he obviously wasn't paying attention in a "christian" church. So I think he does know both Muslim and Christian faiths and beliefs, but would be more inclined that it is for public image and lean more toward he is Atheist or Agnostic and could care less about religion except for where it will get him politically.

Posted by: mbahde | August 19, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse

It's code. The real meaning of "Obama is a muslim" is "he's not one of us". We all know that you're not supposed to attack the president's race in polite society, but americans feel a whole lot freer to discriminate on religion. Thus the true - the president is black - gets transformed into the false - the president is muslim. The core message that he's not a real american is unchanged.

Posted by: s1m0n | August 19, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse

The WP lists an article such as the above with no one to give an opposing view. And feels it's objective journalism. You're so righteous when it comes to Barrak Husein Obama's religion, but had no problem trying to crucify Sarah Palin when she was in the political spotlight.
This issue is not religious freedom, although the mainstream media has been doing its best to spin it that way. The issue is that 3000 people were murdered 2 blocks away. If the Muslims were truly caring and sensitive they'd look elsewhere. And BTW, why hasn't the Washington Post jumped on the rights of the Greek Orthodox church to get re-built?
According to the Koran, all infidels (that's all of you who don't follow their teachings) are to be killed. Period. And that is why many of us are concerned. Don't call us intolerant, call us concerned about our lifestyle that we enjoy...or enjoyed until the government decided they knew more about what we needed than we did.
God, what a stupid article!

Posted by: mspons815 | August 19, 2010 5:11 PM | Report abuse

Shhhh! Tell no one!

Posted by: atlantiscats | August 19, 2010 5:13 PM | Report abuse

In all these denials, sneers and invectives, I haven't seen a shred of evidence submitted by the Obama cultists to the contrary.

FACT: Obama is (objectively speaking) an apostate Muslim.

Grade: A+ (good job Americans!)

/dismissed

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 5:19 PM | Report abuse

Or maybe some many think he is Muslim because of this New York Times piece:

“I (Obama) was a little Jakarta street kid,” he said in a wide-ranging interview in his office (excerpts are on my blog, www.nytimes.com/ontheground). He once got in trouble for making faces during Koran study classes in his elementary school, but a president is less likely to stereotype Muslims as fanatics — and more likely to be aware of their nationalism — if he once studied the Koran with them.

Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”

Still a secret Muslim, perhaps?

Posted by: paulinni | August 19, 2010 5:19 PM | Report abuse

Relax, people. You'll soon have a white president again and all will be right with the world.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Denials, sneers and invectives don't change the facts, Obama cultists. Labeling Americans "numbskulls" is not a convincing argument.

FALSE: Americans are numbskulls.

Grade: F- (try harder)

/dismissed

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 5:24 PM | Report abuse

2012frank blathered:
"...Obama is a socialist ideologue - married to his leftist, anti-business beliefs..."

This is the kind of regurgitated right wing claptrap that makes so many of us question the intelligence of posters like 1012frank. The president is none of those things; thoughts like these gain traction only in the small and limited minds of the ignorant who have no critical thinking skills and do not even know the meanings of the words ("socialist") that they bandy about. 2012frank and his misguided ilk substitute parroted phrases bought-and-paid for by their corporate overlords. Have fun marching over the cliff with your fellow koolaid drinkers, Frank!

Posted by: anotheractor | August 19, 2010 5:25 PM | Report abuse

In all these denials, sneers and invectives, I haven't seen a shred of evidence submitted by the Obama cultists to the contrary.
========================
And we haven't seen anything from proponents proving the allegations. The burden of proof is on you.

Posted by: MidwaySailor76 | August 19, 2010 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Barack is black, so he must be foreign and muslim...DUH!

Posted by: hayden1 | August 19, 2010 5:26 PM | Report abuse

It is easy to say that people who have different views from you are stupid.

Posted by: Desertstraw

No, it's easy to say that people who recite innuendo and rumor as factual proof are completely stupid. Your reality has no basis in fact aside from the what the voices in your head tell you.

Perhaps stupid is a poor description-maybe mentally ill would be more apt.

Posted by: jbanks979 | August 19, 2010 5:27 PM | Report abuse

@paulinni

Despite being Presbyterian, I went to a Jewish preschool where we had to learn about the Torah, bring Kosher lunches and celebrate Jewish holidays. I went to so many Bar and Bat Mitzvahs that I can recite quite a bit of the ceremonies, in Hebrew, from memory almost 30 years later. I call it understanding other cultures and religions.

Still a secret Jew, perhaps?

Congratulations, you sir are truly an idiot.

As are your ilk.

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 5:28 PM | Report abuse

"we are no longer a christian nation"

-----

The United States never has been "a Christian nation." See the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli if you don't believe me.

"Christian nation" = theocracy.

"United States of America" = multicultural, multiethnic, multiracial, secular republic.

All of y'all who are spouting calls to "take back our country" are more than welcome to do so -- but hands off MY country!

Posted by: SportzNut21 | August 19, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

MidwaySailor76 whined: "And we haven't seen anything from proponents proving the allegations. The burden of proof is on you."]

Actually, I've cited my proofs at length above to the blinkered Obama cultists. Conversely, the mindless (numbskulled?) denials here among Obama toadies are utterly bereft of any evidence to the contrary.

That cited evidence stands. Own it.

FACT: Obama is (objectively speaking) an apostate Muslim.

Grade: A+ (good job 20% of Americans!)

/dismissed

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

There you go, Awal, playing the ilk card!

Posted by: jp1954 | August 19, 2010 5:32 PM | Report abuse

well Joel, you must be a knucklehead too if you think the Pilgrims practiced religious tolerance. Google Roger Williams or the Providence Plantation if you want further info. A mosque wouldn't have been welcomed in the Mass Bay Colony either. Seems that the American Indians were more tolerant than our founding fathers who later brought about their complete genocide...

Posted by: imustbeaknucklehead | August 19, 2010 5:33 PM | Report abuse

Hmm... Achenbach asks: "Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?"

We'll, they voted for Obama didn't they? (That was too easy. Let's slow down and look at this like adults.)

Liberals in America have decided that those with conservative views regarding the upholding of basic immigration laws and a dim view of "nanny state" concepts are racists, bigots xenophobes.

As for the left's defamatory view of ordinary citizens on the right, one must ask again, "Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?"

The subtext here is that some percentage of polled Americans think Obama is Muslim and these folks are cornpone conservatives with no access to latte or PBS. Sure it's silly for anyone to believe Obama is a Muslim, but his childhood and family history is hardly commonplace and somewhat confusing to even the well-informed among us. After all, his mother married two non-American men with Muslim backgrounds and Obama spent a portion of his youth in a predominantly Muslim nation.

Given the short attention spans of most folks, is it any surprise that a name might be partially to blame here since names are our primary personal advertisement?

Anyone named Barack Hussein Obama is bound to expect some confusion.

Given that Obama disavowed the incendiary and hate-filled preaching of his own Christian spiritual leader somewhat late in the game -- after nearly two decades -- folks remain justifiably curious about where Obama stands on matters regarding his proclaimed Christian faith.

Posted by: stepjohn2 | August 19, 2010 5:34 PM | Report abuse

In all these denials, sneers and invectives, I haven't seen a shred of evidence submitted by the Obama cultists to the contrary.

FACT: Obama is (objectively speaking) an apostate Muslim.

===
The burden of proof isn't on the "Obama cultists". Its on those who are calling the President a liar.

Good luck with that.

BTW, "opinions" are not proof.

Posted by: mikem1 | August 19, 2010 5:35 PM | Report abuse

Your post is most illogical, Kaddafi.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 5:36 PM | Report abuse

Kaddafi, why did you lie to us about the man with the fatal disease?

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 5:38 PM | Report abuse

"The WP lists an article such as the above with no one to give an opposing view. And feels it's objective journalism."

mspons815, you are posting on the Achenblog. That's blog, not article, and Joel Achenbach posts his opinions and other wonderful writing here. His objective reporting can be found on other pages, most recently and notably his excellent coverage of the Gulf oil spill disaster.

Just thought you'd like to know in case you need to seek a journalist more to your tastes. You won't find a better one.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Anyone with a brain (and who uses it) knows Obama is not a Muslim. However, if he were, so what? That's like saying a Roman Catholic shouldn't be President because he might be controlled by the Pope. In fact, a Muslim President would be a magnificent statement of the true diversity, equality and opportunity for ALL citizens of the United States.

Posted by: jparton3 | August 19, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse

A couple of examples of typical sloppy right wing thinking in stepjohn2's

"Liberals in America have decided..."
"As for the left's defamatory..."

Notice there is no reference to fact, just a typical man setup for more right-wing blather. I think right-wing "thinking" (and I use the term guardedly) consists of them telling liberals what we think. Stepjohn, why don't you use reality as a reference point instead of your fantasy imaginary enemy?

Posted by: anotheractor | August 19, 2010 5:41 PM | Report abuse

I lived in Washington DC for 10 years and left because of the "know it all type of arrogance" that exudes from people in DC.

If you are in DC to influence policy, and do right by your country, shed your arrogance.

If one in 5 people believe Obama is a Moslem
or "perhaps" a secret Moslem, so what.

Writing the blog you wrote, which is condescending just add fuel to the fire.

The country has changed a great deal since
9/11, particularly travel and all the money being spent on security.

If you do not travel that frequently and then you go to the airport and see what is going, IT IS SO SAD, that we have to spend all of this money and time to protect ourselves against terrorists. It is a very real reminder.

There were the shootings in Fort Hood, the XMAs Day would be Bomber and other foiled terrorist plots in Denver and NYC.

This whole mosque episode has stirred people up and they want the country protected.

BE nice when you try and make a point.

Posted by: manybranch | August 19, 2010 5:41 PM | Report abuse

And please...the comment about an "apostate Muslim" is offered as your "objective" truth?

That takes the cake for dumb rationalizations. In our country, we don't allow others to define who we are. That's up to us.

Posted by: mikem1 | August 19, 2010 5:43 PM | Report abuse

"In America you can worship wherever you want, regardless of religious belief."

Except in public schoolrooms.

Whose the idiot?

Posted by: Infidel3 | August 19, 2010 5:44 PM | Report abuse

I give up. What is the secret knock to get into the bunker again?

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 5:44 PM | Report abuse

One wonders. Do many Americans feel they are being lied to because they are stupid illiterates believing in all kinds of paranoid conspiracy theories, or because the truth has emerged so many times that they HAVE been lied to by all manner of organizations from the Catholic Church to the President of the US? Remember "I am not a crook!" or Clinton's weasel words about the definition of SEX. The awful truth is that we have been lied to so many times that it is now IMPOSSIBLE to believe the words of any politician, paid clergy person, career soldier, or any high mucky muck corporate figure. Jesus of Nazareth taught that a tree is known by it's fruitage, that a rotten tree cannot produce good fruit nor could a sound tree produce rotten fruit. SO by their lies is the character of all world leaders known. They are rotten to the core. No good. Pure poison. Why should anyone vote for them? That just puts your stamp of approval on their evil ways. Not voting in an election is not an act of stupidity, but is a vote against a corrupt system of things that is strangling in its own vomit. All you atheists can go braggghhh.

Posted by: McChalium | August 19, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

1 in 5 Americans believe that the moon landing was fake. 1 in 5 believed W. was doing a great job, even at the end. 20% of people will believe the stupidest things, no matter the evidence to the contrary. We just need to make sure the grown-ups make all the important decisions.

Posted by: BillyBaggins | August 19, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

So when someone disagrees with you, they are not smart, huh, Achenbach.

You should be careful.

Posted by: numbersch13 | August 19, 2010 5:47 PM | Report abuse

I live in Europe and i should not care if he is muslim or taoist or anything else... besides the fact he is killing the US economuy and this is reverberating in our economy too.
As for is he muslim or not - according to his own book he *was* a muslim. And he never ever told when and where he denounced his muslim faith (I don't say anything about converting to other faith).
So go figure yourselves.

Posted by: handel1 | August 19, 2010 5:47 PM | Report abuse

The problem is that he went to Jeremiah Wright's church, which isn't Christian, he doesn't attend church now at all.

I think it's fair to say we don't have a clear picture that he's a Christian, except for his professing to be one when it's convenient for polling purposes.

Posted by: tax_acct | August 19, 2010 5:47 PM | Report abuse

This is the desired result of our educational systems - stupidity.

Dumb, fearful, poor and unhealthy people are easier to control.

Posted by: candide08 | August 19, 2010 5:48 PM | Report abuse

How do all of you rocket scientists know that the president is a Christian?

Here are facts:

Obama was raised Muslim.

His father and step-father were Muslim.

He received a Muslim religious education as a youngster.

He joined a church in Chicago headed by a high-profile cleric that preached a race-based theology similar to that of the Black Muslims in Chicago. The preacher has ties to Louis Farrakhan -- a black Muslim leader.

The president has not joined a Christian church since moving to D.C.

Given the above, why attack people that might think he is Muslim? Why call them names? Personally, I do not find Obama's religious conversion convincing. I think in his heart he remains Muslim.

Posted by: Mallarde1 | August 19, 2010 5:49 PM | Report abuse

Also, if someone called me up to waste my time polling me about Obama's religious beliefs, I probably would have said Muslim, too, just to screw up their survey.

Posted by: tax_acct | August 19, 2010 5:49 PM | Report abuse

The problem is evolution of an American presidency to a point that allegiance has even become questionable.

Posted by: wavesand | August 19, 2010 5:50 PM | Report abuse

"As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood. It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant." -2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print
Perhaps it is you who is the numbskull.

Posted by: plucky4 | August 19, 2010 5:50 PM | Report abuse

It boggles the mind.

99% of Americans over 15 can read and write and, I would guess, are awake at least a couple hours each day.

Yet:

1 in 4 Americans say Obama is a Muslim while they criticize him for being a member of Rev. Wrights Christian church

2 in 5 Americans say evolution is false, about the same as Turkey whose population is 99.8% Muslim

3 in 5 Republicans and Southerners are or say they are Birthers (I assume they are part of the 99.8% of the literates)

1 in 5 Americans are members of the Tea Party Movement and dress up in Revolutionary costumes, wear tea-bags hanging from their hats, carry old flintlock muskets, have called our democratically elected President a traitor, a socialist, a communist, a Nazi/fascist and a racist (not noticing, apparently, the Tea Party is 89% white, 10% other and 1% black)

These folks cheer when some government employees (politicians) say government is evil.

These folks demand the government stay out of health-care matters while they carry Medicare and Medicaid ID cards in their wallets.

These folks demand the government has no business in their private lives but demand the government should get involved in the private lives of those they disapprove of.

These folks may find bliss in their ignorance and, as Mark Twain observed, "...one should be gentle with the ignorant, for they are the chosen of God."

These folks deny their beliefs and causes grow out of ignorance but rather their patriotism.

Here to I shall defer again to the wisdom of Mr. Twain who observed that the one who calls himself a patriot is "the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about."

Good night, and good luck!

Posted by: apspa1 | August 19, 2010 5:52 PM | Report abuse

Question asked and answered. Just like 80% of them mistakenly believe Tim Geitner worked for Goldman Sachs. He didn't. In fact he has never even been in investment banking. HE has always worked for public service. Numskulls!

Posted by: Jose5 | August 19, 2010 5:53 PM | Report abuse

"... Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy? ... one in five Americans ..."

Far more than 20% of the population qualify!

Posted by: WashingtonPostIDG | August 19, 2010 5:54 PM | Report abuse

perhaps you should read Charles Krauthammer's article 'sacrilege at ground zero' in last week's washington post- because you know what he has a clue...and obviously you don't! i was married on top of the world trade center in 2001- the first thing i thought of when i heard this Obamanation...was what about the 9/11 families? i signed their petition and every other one i can find...it has nothing to do with religion or politics- it's common sense you dumb ass!

Posted by: debivice | August 19, 2010 5:55 PM | Report abuse

WAR is PEACE
FREEDOM is SLAVERY
IGNORANCE is STRENGTH

1984's INGSOC ("English Socialism")...or 2010's right wing, Christian fundamentalist, authoritarian theocratic mantra?

You decide.

Posted by: SportzNut21 | August 19, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse

I'd say a over 50% are numbskulls.
The ignorance is breathtaking, but it's also what the GOP has been working towards, for three decades. Even without killing the Dept of Education, one of their pet dreams, they've been able to destroy our education system. And we're now seeing the result.
These types have bought into worshipping the braindead (ie: Palin), while at the same time, attacking the educated as *elites.*
These types endlessly support policies that are against their interests.
And they say such gems as: *Don't let Government touch Healthcare... keep their hands off Medicare...*
It's mission accomplished for the GOP... an ignorant electorate is their base.

Posted by: burf | August 19, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse

Obama MAY not be a Muslim, but he is a Socialist!!!!

It's not that a Muslim is building a mosque at ground zero, it is that THIS muslim is building a mosque at ground zero.

He hates America, and this is just the his Muslim middle finger being flexed.

If you think that THIS muslim is just wants to promote healing & good will, why is it being built with the name Cordoba?????

"Cordoba" has strong Muslim symbolism of Muslim triumph over Christianity.

Posted by: DSM_CAL | August 19, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse

As I like to tell my wife when she complains about the stupid drivers on the roads, "Remember, an IQ of 100 is AVERAGE!"

Posted by: bloozshooz | August 19, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse

WAR is PEACE
FREEDOM is SLAVERY
IGNORANCE is STRENGTH

1984's INGSOC ("English Socialism")...or 2010's right wing, Christian fundamentalist, authoritarian theocratic mantra?

You decide.

Posted by: SportzNut21 | August 19, 2010 5:56 PM | Report abuse
///////////////////////////////////////

The first one might be Republican, but the last two are decidedly Democrat.

Posted by: RealTexan1 | August 19, 2010 5:57 PM | Report abuse

I think the best part of this survey is that the religion keeps changing every year. WTF!?

How can your answer (right or wrong) change every year???!!

Posted by: looneytunezez | August 19, 2010 5:57 PM | Report abuse

At a minimum Obama is an ex-Muslim as his father was a Muslim and in Islam that means Obama was born a Muslim.

Obama claims he is a Christian. Because he worshiped at the church of the lunatic Rev. Jeremiah Wright in Chicago, it is hard to believe he is a practicing Christian, since Rev. Wright is certainly no Christian.

But who really cares what religion he really practices... it is his terrible performance as president that really matters.

Posted by: Jakesterman | August 19, 2010 5:58 PM | Report abuse

For all of you attacking anyone confused about the president's true faith:

You are the ones with the mental infirmity. You are the one who -- like millions of sheep -- shout out the "truth" when you have not even looked at facts. Like Marxist revolutionists you berate anyone that does not accept your "truth" without exception.

The president might nominally be "Christian," but he appears to have allegiance to the faith of his boyhood.

Posted by: Mallarde1 | August 19, 2010 5:59 PM | Report abuse

I actually am confused about whether Islam is a religion or a government. The recent stoning punishments imposed by "Sharia" law seems to indicate that when they exercise control over a population they assume the trappings of government including the exercise of the supreme sanction of the death sentence by any beastly method they choose. So IMHO Islam is not a religion at all as defined by our constitution but a foreign government attempting to subvert our way of life and substituting theirs. They do not qualify even for a 503(C) tax exemption.

Posted by: McChalium | August 19, 2010 6:00 PM | Report abuse

Was there a similar WaPo lament when 22% of Americans thought that George Bush was behind 9/11?

"Democrats in America are evenly divided on the question of whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance. Thirty-five percent (35%) of Democrats believe he did know, 39% say he did not know, and 26% are not sure.

Overall, 22% of all voters believe the President knew about the attacks in advance. A slightly larger number, 29%, believe the CIA knew about the attacks in advance."

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance

Probably not.

Posted by: MacRandall | August 19, 2010 6:01 PM | Report abuse

AWAL,

I personally do not think Obama is a Muslim.

I think he is someone who uses religion for political purposes. He attended a so-called Christian church because it was politically expedient to do so. He strikes me more of an agnostic than anything.

Whatever he is, one thing is for sure, he is the most petulant president in American history!

http://spectator.org/archives/2010/08/18/obamas-petulant-presidency

Posted by: paulinni | August 19, 2010 6:01 PM | Report abuse

The president has not joined a Christian church since moving to D.C.

Given the above, why attack people that might think he is Muslim? Why call them names? Personally, I do not find Obama's religious conversion convincing. I think in his heart he remains Muslim.

Posted by: Mallarde1 | August 19, 2010 5:49 PM | Report abuse

==

It's because Obama says he's not a Muslim and that he is a Christian. It's because he attended a Christian church for 20 years.

You think he's a liar? Fine. I'd hope most people would give others the benefit of the doubt if you have no proof otherwise. But, this is politics today. Truth takes a back seat to unfounded accusations.

Posted by: mikem1 | August 19, 2010 6:01 PM | Report abuse

The world is black and white.
Business is good.
Greed is good.
Government is bad.
Unions are bad.
Taxes are bad.
Foreigners are bad.
Gay people are bad.
Poor people are bad.
Education is bad.
Community is bad.

Posted by: HilaryLo | August 19, 2010 6:01 PM | Report abuse

Joel says "For example, the question about the mosque may not have been framed in a way that made clear that this would not be a place to advance the cause of radical Islam, jihad, death-to-the-West, etc.".
But what if another set of people who happen to be Islamic radicals, jihad, death-to-the-West, women all wrapped up, types also wanted to open a Mosque and invoked the first amendment.
The plain truth is that this is not a first amendment issue, but one of sensitivity. Many Americans believe that Islam is culpable to some degree for not only 9/11 but all the other horrors we hear these days (most recently stoning to death of an Afghan couple who eloped) and thus do not see it as benign like say Buddhism.

Posted by: Observer20 | August 19, 2010 6:01 PM | Report abuse

Look, try to focus. The question asked was is Obama a Muslim. Not if he might be claimed by the Muslims, or if he has sympathy for Muslims, and certainly not if he is a good President or True Christian.

To be a Muslim means that one follows the 5 pillars of Islam:

1. To accept and declare that "Allah" (God) is the one and only God and that Muhammad is his messenger.
2. To pray 5 times a day.
3. To pay charity.
4. To do a pilgrimage to Mecca.
5. Fasting during the month of Ramadan.

Anybody see him doing all of these things? Of course not. And the claim that he might be a "secret Muslim," you know, one who doesn't follow Islam is to claim that someone is a secret vegetarian despite frequently eating meat. It's a contradiction in terms.

This means he isn't a Muslim. This isn't an opinion, it is based on the definition of what a Muslim is.

Of course, there's the deeper question. What if he were? What he decided to start doing all those things? What impact would that have?

None, unless you assume that all Muslims are Terrorists who Hate America because some Muslims are Terrorists who Hate America.

Which doesn't follow anymore than does the claim that all dogs are Cairn Terriers, because some are.

And I defy anyone to call that my "opinion."

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 6:02 PM | Report abuse

Poor, poor baby Obama. When you kept going against the will of the American people, you have to take the heat in the kitchen.

Posted by: farmsnorton | August 19, 2010 6:02 PM | Report abuse

Joel says "For example, the question about the mosque may not have been framed in a way that made clear that this would not be a place to advance the cause of radical Islam, jihad, death-to-the-West, etc.".
But what if another set of people who happen to be Islamic radicals, jihad, death-to-the-West, women all wrapped up, types also wanted to open a Mosque and invoked the first amendment.
The plain truth is that this is not a first amendment issue, but one of sensitivity. Many Americans believe that Islam is culpable to some degree for not only 9/11 but all the other horrors we hear these days (most recently stoning to death of an Afghan couple who eloped) and thus do not see it as benign like say Buddhism.

Posted by: Observer20 | August 19, 2010 6:03 PM | Report abuse

Can we get an alert when this is off the front page? I give up.

I feel like I've been doing my salmon impression all day and am about to die from exhaustion. See you all after the next kit.

Posted by: Awal | August 19, 2010 6:03 PM | Report abuse

Yes, Yes, Yes! I am a Christian and I have watched many tele-evangelists spread false and misleading information about President Obama on their weekly programs. They try to use Bibilical scriptures (taken out of context) to support their point of view, i.e., Obama is the anti-Christ, he's Muslim, he hates Israel and Jewish people and on and on and on. Gullible non-thinking Christians (some of them are dumber than a rock) believe them. This is a sad reflection on the Body of Christ! They have serious "heart" issues.

Posted by: Thankful4HisGrace | August 19, 2010 6:04 PM | Report abuse

Wow, four out of five idiots do not realize that he is a closet muslim.

Posted by: wisehiney | August 19, 2010 6:04 PM | Report abuse

I thought Cordoba was a fine leather found in Chryslers.

Posted by: nellie4 | August 19, 2010 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Observer20 - yes, some people do view Muslims that way. But the Constitution is the law of the land. It applies to everyone, even if they don't always like it.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 6:05 PM | Report abuse

baldinho, if you're still here.

bunker > last boodle

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 6:06 PM | Report abuse

Another way to look at it is that the Constitution is designed to protect the rights of all the people, not just the popular ones.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 6:08 PM | Report abuse

If the President is so concerned let him clear up the birther question, along with all the funding questions, the passport used to go overseas,college records for him and his wife,,,,,,,all things that every American has to do every day. This is very easy to clear up, but the President has chosen to be secretive and clandestine. Produce a valid birth certificate, passport,records etc. and the 20% might go away. The fact that this is a question, is really the sad part. We should never have to question the ideology of our President.

Posted by: terryco1 | August 19, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Exhibit A, the American voters elected Barrack Hussein Obama, how dumb was that?

This is not about religious freedom. The mosque in that location is a slap in the face to all America. It is insensitive and will not be allowed to be built.

Must be a great way to try and sell newspapers by insulting a majority of the population, oh that is right the WP is on the verge of bankruptcy. Maybe you can figure it out.

Posted by: Bubbette1 | August 19, 2010 6:14 PM | Report abuse

America elected Obama. (How stupid can we be?)

That alone proves that many are really clueless.

That 24 percent is probably correct Obama is, in reality, a Muslim.

BTW that church he attended wasn't Christian; it was a racist hate white America Church.

AND

There is a VAST LIBERAL CONSPIRACY going down....the liberals/progressives/communists are in a race to see just how fast they can bankrupt America....all the while they want to blame BUSH and the rest of us Republicans.

AMERICA is Doomed and so many are frogs in the pot and won't wake up till its too late.

All this is so incredibly sad....

Orwell painted a fairly accurate picture of all this years ago.

Posted by: johnfree2 | August 19, 2010 6:14 PM | Report abuse

With all disrespect to Joel Achenbach, Your Barry O. may not be a devout Muslim but he certainly is a Muslim sympathizer and an overt Jew hater. I guess somewhere in there he falls into the category of being a Christian. Sort of like the fact that Satan was an angel, at one time.

Posted by: rdavid1020 | August 19, 2010 6:15 PM | Report abuse

Hmmm, are Americans total numbskulls? Tough question...let's see, Obama supported the Cordoba house build. Can't be supporting the constitution so he must be a closet Muslim huh...some Americans practice "numbskullery" part time, like when the latest GOP fact based claims flood the media. Well ok, maybe it's closer to full time; since that happens about every day, heh heh...then there are those who practice gross attacks on innocent people, using mis-information to undermine the faith of the American people. Oh yes, silly me...that's the charter of the GOP!!!

Posted by: MichaelB3 | August 19, 2010 6:18 PM | Report abuse

Question: Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?

Answer: Yes. :-)

More seriously, It's interesting to note that online data (Wikipedia - with data apparently derived from the controversial book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations") seems to suggest the average IQ of the US population is 98. Frightening thought, although of course the population mean is 100.

What we do tend to forget in these conversations, carried on as they are in media that are focused on highly educated and literate people, is the fact that half the population does in fact, by definition, have a below average IQ. (Remember, IQ tests have a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 10 or 15, depending on the exact test used). Randomized polls looking at questions such as President Obama's religious persuasions, if properly designed, sample individuals both below and above average IQ. To some extent the fact that we are shocked at the answers we discover demonstrates the intellectual bias of the readers of this paper, and shows how little we understand the underlying demographics of our own society.

Posted by: TWP9999 | August 19, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse

"Are Americans total numbskulls?
God help us. Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?"

How do you think this know-nothing, say-nothing anti-American got elected in the first place?

Posted by: viktitious | August 19, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse

"God help us. Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy? "

clearly YES. Heck over 50% of the country voted for this guy, believing in "hope and change" while ignoring his lack of experience, his covered up past, and of course the whole shady Rezko deal. How can ANYONE vote for this guy after the Rezko dirt? More questions maybe you lib geniuses can answer for me:

CANNOT FIND ANY OF HIS CHILDHOOD FRIENDS OR NEIGHBORS?
OR LOCATE ANY OF OBAMA'S COLLEGE PAPERS OR GRADES?
OR HOW HE PAID FOR A HARVARD EDUCATION?
OR WHICH COUNTRY ISSUED HIS VISA TO TRAVEL TO PAKISTAN IN THE 1980'S?

Show me the answers to these and I'll eat my words.
Thanks

Posted by: sbiecko7575 | August 19, 2010 6:23 PM | Report abuse

Hey, nellie! You got in good one in edgewise - congratulations. ;)

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 6:23 PM | Report abuse

Actually, I don't believe that "disinformation" caused this poll. I just think there's a core segment of the population that just wants to believe whatever they believe regardless of the facts. They want to make enemies of Obama and so they just stubbornly make up lies in their own minds.

They want to believe that Obama is the most left wing politician of all time. In fact, it's completely not true. He is probably the most centrist of all time. That's why he's being hounded from both sides.

If we didn't have these radical nut-jobs on either the right or the left, this Country would be in a much better state.

On one last note, who cares if he's Muslim. There's nothing wrong with any religion (as long as it's not extremist).

Posted by: Dan34 | August 19, 2010 6:23 PM | Report abuse

It is easy to generalize and say that Americans are "numbskulls". Certainly a lot are. The same can be said for any nationality. One problem is that so many members of our main stream media are numbskulls. Those of us on the left think that Rush and Glenn, Ann and their ilk are numbskulls. We think that most Tea Partiers are slightly more intelligent than a standard head of cabbage. I am sure that many on the right have similar thoughts of some of the media that left wingers follow.

However, ignorance is dangerous. It got us into the tragic Vietnam War. The sort of ignorance described by McNamara in the documentary "Fog of War". We are in Iraq and Afghanistan because of ignorance. We fight a useless, expensive "War against Drugs because of ignorance.". Many of us believe that followers of religion are ignorant. What is the answer? Ignorance is a natural condition of the human race and their is not much which can be done about it.

Posted by: jimeglrd8 | August 19, 2010 6:23 PM | Report abuse

Ah yes the great smug media. Certainly Oboe is not a Christian other than on paper, and his heart certainly seems more Anti-Semitic than not. We aren't numbskulls; we just don't like Obama as much as you numbskulls think we ought to. And that he "sure seems Muslim to me!" means significantly more than his actual religion. Face it, in reality we ALL know, even you on the left, Oboe is an academic atheist and will use religion just like any other politician just to get elected.

Posted by: jdcarmine | August 19, 2010 6:24 PM | Report abuse

Well, it's heartening to see Mr. A still has the ability to raise the popularity of the A-blog when deemed necessary.

And the really funny part is advertisers actually pay for this.

Posted by: MsJS | August 19, 2010 6:25 PM | Report abuse

Thanks to Fox, 100% of their viewers are. Remember when we had a good economy and a surplus before the Bush Tax Cuts for the wealthy, nothing trickles down but their refuse.

Posted by: War_Hero | August 19, 2010 6:26 PM | Report abuse

Yes they are.

Posted by: sh99 | August 19, 2010 6:27 PM | Report abuse

Stupid yes, but even worse, gullible.

Posted by: maberlin | August 19, 2010 6:27 PM | Report abuse

Since his Father was a Muslim, I wonder how many of the 1 in 5 are Muslim?

Posted by: t_a_forrester | August 19, 2010 6:28 PM | Report abuse

Oh fudge. I wish we could get rid of the one person, one vote - we could really weed out these idiots. Then, the entire country could be run by the only people who know what to do - a handful of Harvard grads sitting on Martha's Vineyard.

Got two words for you, Joel, and they're not happy birthday.

Posted by: Marina8 | August 19, 2010 6:28 PM | Report abuse

Only thing matters is y'all keep sucking down the imported oil. All else is infotainment for chickenhawks.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 6:28 PM | Report abuse

Has the user ever considered that instead of millions he himself can be a numbskull..It's easy to condemn others even though smell comes from your own laundry

Posted by: space_5500 | August 19, 2010 6:29 PM | Report abuse

''Teachers and professors can regularly point to factual questions on exams that at least 20% of the class got wrong, even though the way to correct answer was presented in the course material.

I'm guessing all of us got at least one or two exam questions wrong that many of our classmates also muffed. Does that make us 'dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?''

If the answer was presented in class in large bold letters posted on the blackboard every day from the day class started until the final day of class....YES.

Posted by: starwanderer | August 19, 2010 6:30 PM | Report abuse

I know jewish songs, I can chant the hari krishna song, I know the Bible backwards & forwards, that doesn't make me anything except...knowledgeable on the subject. I don't like the Washington Posts innuendo about US! They mixed all these subjects up: aliens, manchurian candidates, Chinese bringing us down; Stick to the subject W.P.,each of those topics have pro's & con's.

Posted by: atlantiscats | August 19, 2010 6:31 PM | Report abuse

Oh gosh. I get it now. When people say Obama is a Muslim they don't really mean he is a Muslim, they really mean that they hate Obama just as much as they hate Muslims.

Further because such people really, really hate Muslims the sensitive thing to do is to make sure that those Muslims are deprived of all their constitutional rights.

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 6:32 PM | Report abuse

The latest poll shows that 4 out of 5 Americans do not believe that the president prays everyday. Kudos to the WH for making sure we all knew that!

Posted by: digitalhuman | August 19, 2010 6:36 PM | Report abuse

I find it interesting to note that the 1 in 5 ignorant Americans believing this about Obama's religion roughly correlates to the 24% of Americans who identify themselves as being in favor of the Tea Party, and that that same group prides themselves on not having been particularly politically active or even politically aware prior to joining the Tea Party. Coincidence? I think not.

Posted by: mountainspring22 | August 19, 2010 6:36 PM | Report abuse

seems like all the morons are here, while obamoraon is on his 6th vacation this year.
have fun calling people morons

Posted by: STRATUMDF | August 19, 2010 6:40 PM | Report abuse

Five in five Americans are idiots

Posted by: HackademicInterest | August 19, 2010 6:41 PM | Report abuse

Finally a voice of reason!

Posted by: rickrichman1 | August 19, 2010 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. After all, you voted Obumma into office and you set Pelosi and Reid up for their offices by voting in a bunch of Democrabs! Of course, the Pubbies weren't any better, but a dead-locked Congress has to work together to get anything done. The Liberal agenda costs too much money at a time when the federal treasury is depleted.

Posted by: srreality45 | August 19, 2010 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Honestly -
I'm working to improve my emigration eligibility score.

I want the same things that the immigrants way back on the family tree wanted; to live among a group of people that share my values and are driven as a group to strive toward something better for the individual and the group.

That is dead here.

If honor for the flag is also to respect and honor the segment of the population that 'believe' like this - then I choose to seek my honor elsewhere. The founding fathers, for all their many faults, did strive to realize the human experience hinted at in the enlightenment movement preceding them. We live one live and I'm with them. And that means 'gettin' out!'

Posted by: PulSamsara | August 19, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

I think everyone ought to chill out and while you are trying to do that read this opinion piece:

WSJ.com - Opinion: Liberal Piety and the Memory of 9/11 http://on.wsj.com/9gZkVd

Lots of Americans are getting real tired of being talked down to so often.

Peace,
Eric

Posted by: ejswensson | August 19, 2010 6:44 PM | Report abuse

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. After all, you voted Obumma into office!

Posted by: srreality45 | August 19, 2010 6:44 PM | Report abuse

This stuff is for those people who believe Leno's interviews on academic subjects with people who pretend to be dumb as fence posts so they can get on TV.

As stated before here, people are likely enough to take the opportunity to say, "Sure he's a Muslim!" This poll tells me that's what they think of his stand on the mosque and especially the spineless flip flop the next day.

Posted by: kls1 | August 19, 2010 6:45 PM | Report abuse

1 in 5 American watch Fox News all the time.

Posted by: ksalicornia | August 19, 2010 6:46 PM | Report abuse

Haven't read all the comments, though I was pleased and amused by the first 100 or so.

I think what it boils down to is what my father used to describe as "Don't confuse me with facts - my mind's made up."

Posted by: vklip | August 19, 2010 6:48 PM | Report abuse

Thank you for this article!!!!!!!!

Posted by: danielsfoss | August 19, 2010 6:49 PM | Report abuse

OMG I just heard that Obama is an alien from outer space and a Manchurian Candidate, programmed by the Chinese to bring America to ruin!!!!
Why isn't anyone talking about this?

Posted by: dollmike | August 19, 2010 6:49 PM | Report abuse

OK.. 5 out of 5 Americans are Idiots.

Can someone please help me by naming a country with a better ratio of idiots?

Posted by: justaguy4 | August 19, 2010 6:50 PM | Report abuse

So upholding constitutional rights is liberal piety? Thanks, again, for clearing that all up.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 6:50 PM | Report abuse

KFC is being sued for trying to sell grilled chicken rather than pushing the fattier, less healthy fried chicken - by black franchisees! And in the internet age, it helps people who want to ignore actual facts by backing up invalid and inaccurate data. Perhaps what it really says is just how big a problem we have with mental health.

Posted by: kravitzkravitz | August 19, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

I'm sure 1 in 5 clueless are either liberals or illegal immigrants...because liberals think obama is ronald mcdonald handing out cheese..and it wasn't on the list...illegals just check anything thats square in shape...then americans were numbskulls for letting them 3rd world fish head and rice carpet bangers on the soil.

Posted by: JWx2 | August 19, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

The short answer... YES.
/simplified answer to simplified questions

Posted by: google7 | August 19, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Go to Yahoo.com and read the illiterate comments posted on their articles.

Count how many of those there are compared to the ones that make sense.

It is scary - no kidding.

Posted by: ljtp1117 | August 19, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

OMG, my father is pure-blooded Greek, so under Greek law, I qualify for citizenship. Greece is a Socialist state, so I'm a Socialist!

Obama can recite an Islamic prayer? Oh no! I can recite the Lord's Prayer in Greek! Hm, course I didn't know what the words meant until I learned it in English, but I do like the smell of incense in a Greek church and think icons are beautiful. That must make me Greek Orthodox as well. Except that would be entirely wrong.

I may be of Greek descent, but I don't identify myself as Greek. I have an American passport, pay US taxes, go to a protestant church (my mother's heritage), and really can't speak the language at all. I was born here, and would truly be insulted and shell-shocked that someone thought I was more Greek than American. I'm sure there are distant relatives in Greece that would love to claim familial ties to me, but the fact remains that I don't know them and their opinions aren't going to influence me much.

I can recite the preamble to the Constitution and parts of the Declaration of Independence. I bet Mr. Obama can as well. We are American, and I gladly claim him as such.

Posted by: MoftheMountain | August 19, 2010 6:52 PM | Report abuse

Ignorance is truly bliss in this country and the religious rightwing is absolutely the most rapturous bunch of nuts I've ever seen or heard. They're so easily led like sheep in politics as in religion because dogma, not facts are at the core of their existance.

Posted by: planesdrifter | August 19, 2010 6:52 PM | Report abuse

Yes, it's dumb to oppose a mosque at the sight of ground zero, and equally dumb to wish to erect one there. A classic case of two dummies met!

Posted by: reenie10 | August 19, 2010 6:53 PM | Report abuse

1 in 5 seems a little low. It's below the 27% Crazification factor.

Posted by: daiconradmi | August 19, 2010 6:55 PM | Report abuse

Eat like Obama...eat kobe steaks from http://www.huntspoint.com/meat.html

Posted by: Huntspoint | August 19, 2010 6:57 PM | Report abuse

of cousre this liberal pollster didn't include 'other'...72% wrote in either azzhat,dumbo,wookieian,oreoian and full incompentian.

Posted by: JWx2 | August 19, 2010 6:57 PM | Report abuse

"Barack Obama (...) pondering war with Iran"

Is it an Israeli far-right wishful thinking?
There is nothing to ponder here excepting what will have to pay Israel if they dare to attack another country over lies and plain propaganda.

Posted by: Sensi23 | August 19, 2010 6:57 PM | Report abuse

Of course americans are that dumb-- how do you think Obama got elected in the first place? Riding a tide of hope and happy wishes when he had less experience than Palin, what did we expect would happen? We measure a man by his deeds, not his words. BSO has no deeds, and was/is just a lot of talk.

Posted by: steveinWashington | August 19, 2010 6:58 PM | Report abuse

Simply it is not worth arguing with dumb conservatives who believe anything and everything that they feel is negative about Obama. They will not be swayed if they saw the president in good standing with the Church take holey communion. The fact is that the GOP for a long time, at least since the early 80s has realized that it is not the truth that counts but how loud and often you scream the lie. The very fact that there is so much openly biased conservative mainstream media and yet these same folks feel that the press is liberal should be key in understanding their ignorant worldview. They have the truth, you don’t. Unfortunate these types of disputes are rarely solved civilly. I suggest progressives take up and exercise their second amendment rights because the next step these fascist conservatives are going to take is to do something violent based upon their ill-conceived world view. This is not hyperbole. How many cloaked calls for revolution, stripping of citizenship, rounding up and putting into “reeducation” camps can be tolerated? The GOP wants a civil war, and by God they may just get one.

Posted by: hansenthered | August 19, 2010 6:58 PM | Report abuse

God Bless You, Joel

Posted by: justacitizen5 | August 19, 2010 6:59 PM | Report abuse

Simply it is not worth arguing with dumb conservatives who believe anything and everything that they feel is negative about Obama. They will not be swayed if they saw the president in good standing with the Church take holey communion. The fact is that the GOP for a long time, at least since the early 80s has realized that it is not the truth that counts but how loud and often you scream the lie. The very fact that there is so much openly biased conservative mainstream media and yet these same folks feel that the press is liberal should be key in understanding their ignorant worldview. They have the truth, you don’t. Unfortunate these types of disputes are rarely solved civilly. I suggest progressives take up and exercise their second amendment rights because the next step these fascist conservatives are going to take is to do something violent based upon their ill-conceived world view. This is not hyperbole. How many cloaked calls for revolution, stripping of citizenship, rounding up and putting into “reeducation” camps can be tolerated? The GOP wants a civil war, and by God they may just get one.

Posted by: hansenthered | August 19, 2010 6:59 PM | Report abuse

Okay, if you don't believe he is muslim than why is his real name barry but he goes by BARACK HUSEIN OBAMA. That is not a christian name. Or maybe you will believe it if you see it with you own eyes and ears!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I

Posted by: releggneh1 | August 19, 2010 7:00 PM | Report abuse

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Treaty of Tripoli,1797
signed by President John Adama

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 7:01 PM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I

Posted by: releggneh1 | August 19, 2010 7:01 PM | Report abuse

The founders thought they had solved the problem by establishing our government as a republic. Man, they didn’t foresee the internet, face book, blogs, apps, etc.

The fifth (Hah! Make that two thirds, Joel.) that seeks conspiracy theories in bus schedules won’t be put off by politicians or the MSM; they want the facts: Obama’s a Muslim who was born in Indonesia; Oswald led an army; The U.N. is taking over the world and our parental rights; Muslims are making a victory statement with a mosque that can’t be seen from ground zero; liberals are communists; Saddam had nukes; and on and on.

There is little hope, especially since smart charlatans who should know better and who have no intellectual honesty or patriotism about them spur on these moronic wingnuts.

Thank goodness I’m old and won’t have to listen to this much longer.

Posted by: brennan01 | August 19, 2010 7:02 PM | Report abuse

scc: signed by President John Adams

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 7:02 PM | Report abuse


11:28 am EDTObama and his elitist pals are trying to put one over on the American People. Obama and eric holder seek to weaken and destroy the nation known as the USA, that nation and government that existed before obama was elected on lies of hope and change…we know the truth now.Are they going to be finishing us off as a viable Nation soon ? .Thank you Democrat Party…Now Obama has czars in the White House who are not even interviewed by the US Congress to see if they are qualified or a national security threat.my bet is that it’s the latter.Obama and his staff ( Atty Gen Holder ) have shown us they hold no Love for America and intend to knock us down…God help us if we cannot get this nightmare over soon . Resign Obama. You disgrace not only the office of President. you disgrace yourself.Millions of people are watching…and take Holder with you. Leave soon. Please. Really. Leave Leave the office you have not shown you are able to hold properly.

Where are the Generals of the USA who will protect us from this nightmare ? God help us.How much more shame can we endure as a People before we start beating our own backs with chains in our front yards til we bleed…?
We need to take the USA back to normal standards…Time is running out…Look around you. The illegals are everywhere…. Wake up. Re-Arm yourselves with the truth and be ready to fight for your nation. There is little time left to us to act. Be Ready To Fight .
It is the absurdity of the wrong groups in society stopping others from being seen by people . The media companies and TV News networks/Newspapers decide who gets coverage and press/ TV news coverage and these candidates get elected, others who run for office are never seen or heard on tv news etc...
Then you end up with a list of elected officials who are only insiders, democrat party cronies, etc . Clowns and Fakes that you now see all over the USA in small towns and in the Nation’s Congress. Among them are honorable men/women but how many are there ? Too many are liars, money-takers and money-launderers .Few if any people you want to mow your lawn much less lead your local or state or national government…wake up people.Bush and McCain didnt stop the illegal immigrants either so the usa political process is infected with a --designed to fail the working people-- mode of operation, catering to the rich and powerful or well-connected elites. - Derr

A brief note : a different topic below :
( Also Google ” Derr UFO ” to see whats really going on in your world… Blonde babes telling you soft news on tv, and the clowns and useful idiots in the govt as well as the fool drones in the obama administration cannot deter you from knowing some real truth about life in the year 2010…do not give up hope…you can learn more but you have to work hard to get the truth. Google ” Derr UFO ” or ” Tobias Derr ” to see whats really going on, free info in the internet by me.

Posted by DERRUFO | Report as abusive

Posted by: DERRUFO2 | August 19, 2010 7:03 PM | Report abuse

I doubt they are stupid enough to believe the lie, but they certainly are mean enough to repeat, perpetuate, and enforce the lie.

Yeah, they are mean enough indeed, and anyone that mean deserves and will get enemies.

It takes a good person to participate in good government, a population we are lacking.

Posted by: chrisnnc1 | August 19, 2010 7:04 PM | Report abuse

Don't be too hard on yourselves, eh! 20% of all people are dumb. But consider the number of people who support(ed) Sarah Palin for v.p. Are you sure 20% is isn't a bit of an underestimate, eh! Yes, I'm Canadian, but we love your political soap opera up here.

Posted by: kennem | August 19, 2010 7:05 PM | Report abuse

It is only proof of being a Muslim when Obama does it.

You know there are a lot of simply embarrassingly unhinged folks waving the GOP banner when Gerson, Parker, Ponnuru and a lot of others have to plead with them to just calm down.

They have achieve uncritical mass. They believe that they will sweep the GOP into power again.

Oh, how wrong they will be. We don't do Hutu power in the USA, and enough of the middle and common sense Republicans will rise to prevent it again.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 7:08 PM | Report abuse

ummmgh, can anybody spell Sarah Palin? over half of all the vicious rumours are propogated by her. Erradicate...

Posted by: zenregor | August 19, 2010 7:09 PM | Report abuse

I wonder how many "dumb conservatives" vs "smart liberals" died during 9/11. I'm gonna guess not near enough. The reason I say this is because most "American idiots" don't have to worry about a "rag head" killing them based on religious belief. Not so much true in the rest of the world. The murderers are the monster idiots of our time,not the conservatives or liberals, we would all do well to remember this.

Posted by: cj1167 | August 19, 2010 7:09 PM | Report abuse

Foo. Here's a pretty blast from the past
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUT-x3iGMQ

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 7:11 PM | Report abuse

McChalium | August 19, 2010 6:00 PM |- Are you also confused about whether Christianity is a religion or a government:

Canon law is the body of laws and regulations made by or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members.

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 7:13 PM | Report abuse

What we NEED to do is somehow prevent that 20% from breeding and polluting the gene pool.....

Posted by: superfred911 | August 19, 2010 7:18 PM | Report abuse

Book 033, Number 6429:

"The mother of every person gives him birth according to his true nature. It is subsequently his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Magian. Had his parents been Muslim he would have also remained a Muslim. Every person to whom his mother gives birth (has two aspects of his life) ; when his mother gives birth Satan strikes him but it was not the case with Mary and her son (Jesus Christ)."


According to the Hadith, we are ALL born Muslim, but may follow the religion of one or the other of our parents until we reach the age of reason (adolescence) and become infidels if we reject Islam after that.

Posted by: -tao- | August 19, 2010 7:27 PM | Report abuse

One thing is certain. Our schools are getting worse and people are increasingly less well-educated. This is at the heart of the problem. Also, people keep stuffing themselves with unhealthy food that destroys their brain cells. It is not unlike ancient Rome when people became increasingly stupid because they cooked in lead pots. Most Americans spend hours each day commuting in their cars and then come home to plop down in front of the television. How can anyone think is this kind of environment? In The Blue Nile, Allan Morehead relates how Ethiopians forgot the use of the sail. America is on a downward slope for any number of reasons, just like other civilizations in the past. . Just look around you and say this is wrong. Americans are obese and getting fatter. " Fat, dumb and lazy is no way to go through life," in the immortal words of Dean Wormer. Onward and upward!

Posted by: cummings01 | August 19, 2010 7:27 PM | Report abuse

One thing is certain. Our schools are getting worse and people are increasingly less well-educated. This is at the heart of the problem. Also, people keep stuffing themselves with unhealthy food that destroys their brain cells. It is not unlike ancient Rome when people became increasingly stupid because they cooked in lead pots. Most Americans spend hours each day commuting in their cars and then come home to plop down in front of the television. How can anyone think is this kind of environment? In The Blue Nile, Allan Morehead relates how Ethiopians forgot the use of the sail. America is on a downward slope for any number of reasons, just like other civilizations in the past. . Just look around you and say this is wrong. Americans are obese and getting fatter. " Fat, dumb and lazy is no way to go through life," in the immortal words of Dean Wormer. Onward and upward!

Posted by: cummings01 | August 19, 2010 7:27 PM | Report abuse

One thing is certain. Our schools are getting worse and people are increasingly less well-educated. This is at the heart of the problem. Also, people keep stuffing themselves with unhealthy food that destroys their brain cells. It is not unlike ancient Rome when people became increasingly stupid because they cooked in lead pots. Most Americans spend hours each day commuting in their cars and then come home to plop down in front of the television. How can anyone think is this kind of environment? In The Blue Nile, Allan Morehead relates how Ethiopians forgot the use of the sail. America is on a downward slope for any number of reasons, just like other civilizations in the past. . Just look around you and say this is wrong. Americans are obese and getting fatter. " Fat, dumb and lazy is no way to go through life," in the immortal words of Dean Wormer. Onward and upward!

Posted by: cummings01 | August 19, 2010 7:27 PM | Report abuse

DERRUFO - When we want good UFO information, we consult our treasured copies of "Abducted by Aliens" by... Joel Achenbach.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 7:30 PM | Report abuse

relax, cummings. No need to be so twitchy-fingered!

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 7:34 PM | Report abuse

It is worse than I thought. I found out on a great web site that the entire Obama administration is MARXIST! You think his energy secretary was hired because he was SMART! Hah, another tool of the LAMESTREAM media. Daniel Pipes and Debby Schlussel, the true PATRIOTS they are found this tape when the evil MARXIST Chu trains more COMMIES to ruin our NATION. Obama paid MILLIONS to keep this QUIET, but NO MORE.

Take this evidence, LIBTARDS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qLzQ4uOvio&feature=related

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 7:38 PM | Report abuse

Why, yes, we are numbskull’ed as a matter of a fact. Date it back to the Crusades if you will or even sooner. You speak of tolerance. Please compare the oratory records passed down throughout the ages between the life of Muhammad and Jesus Christ and let me know what you come up with (not their followers but them personally). As far as the Pilgrims, my own personal linage goes back to the Mayflower and I wonder what those people felt about Muslims at that time. Undoubtedly not too favorable. It was a form of the Muslim religion, albeit extremist in nature, that brought down the Twin Towers and murdered all of those innocent people. Call it what you want, but to build a temple where people cry out to the same Ala that was muttered by those same murderers who piloted those planes, is a desecration of the American ideal of forbearance, freedom and sense of equality. The bottomline is, is there really any need to spit in our face? I’m sure there is less sacred ground to be found in the Bronx where people can pray.

Posted by: mayflowerboy | August 19, 2010 7:51 PM | Report abuse

Convincing evidence, baldinho!

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 7:52 PM | Report abuse

time to start believing in god and not refigion

Posted by: mcgirr2001 | August 19, 2010 7:54 PM | Report abuse

Oh No, baldinho . . . . was it the stress of the day? Did they get to you? The fainting couch is in the bunker and I'm sure one of the ladies will scooch over for you if you need to lie down.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 7:58 PM | Report abuse

mayflowerboy - Good God, man, are ye daft? You want to open a magnet for violent terrorists in a community that has already nurtured the "Bronx Bombers"?!?

Heaven forfend!

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 8:02 PM | Report abuse

You want evidence LIBTARDS? We all know Obumbo went to the academy on some terrorist fantasy island in Muslabia to learn to hate America. Here is PROOF that he met with radical HATERS who hate to hate! There is clear evidence that he is under their CONTROL. I am pretty sure this thing is in ARABIC, and that Mr. Roarke was a MUSLIN who controls the Fu Manchu candidate, Barry SOETARO and also TATTOO. They use creatures to control his BRAIN. WE MUST STOP HIM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NFXj56JqcM

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 8:06 PM | Report abuse

Kahn in German! Well, this boodle is looking up.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

I left America to live in Australia 17 years ago and am glad I did. The dumbing down of American's is very sad and I blame right wing talk show host, Fox propaganda, tv evangelicals and the like.
Obama is one of the smartest presidents America ever had unlike Bush who was the dumbest and the worst. It will take a long time for America to recover from the disaster Bush left behind, but Americans have only themselves to blame for voting for a complete idiot twice to become their president.
It also saddens me that outright racism is now acceptable for many Americans. Those who want to build a mosque near the WTC had nothing to do with 9/11 but the outcry is a reflection of the dumbing down of Americans.

Posted by: josephblow11 | August 19, 2010 8:11 PM | Report abuse

We are pretty dumb. Think of the racism, homophobia, religionism and other idiocies that we have embraced. And if you still think that the widespread criticism of Obama's leadership has any impetus other than old fashioned racism, I have a bridge that you might like to buy, you silly thing....

Posted by: PontiusPilot | August 19, 2010 8:14 PM | Report abuse

We are pretty dumb. Think of the racism, homophobia, religionism and other idiocies that we have embraced. And if you still think that the widespread criticism of Obama's leadership has any impetus other than old fashioned racism, I have a bridge that you might like to buy, you silly thing....

Posted by: PontiusPilot | August 19, 2010 8:14 PM | Report abuse

well, didn't mean the Bronx personally. just somewhere else that is not so sensitive in nature and potentially drawing so much attention.

Posted by: mayflowerboy | August 19, 2010 8:17 PM | Report abuse

One problem is that the Greatest Generation is dying off and the elderly now are the so-called Silent Generation of bigots and red-baiters from the McCarthy era. That's why so many old people are suddenly so conservative. It isn't that older people have gotten more conservative so much as it is a right-wing mini-generation has gotten old. When the death panels wipe out these morons we'll have the Boomers in the elderly chair. And that'll be lots of fun...

Posted by: ElrodinTennessee | August 19, 2010 8:20 PM | Report abuse

[josephblow11 spat: "outright racism is now acceptable for many Americans."]

Remind readers again, what "race" is Islam?

/quod idiocy demonstrandum

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 8:20 PM | Report abuse

I was so happy to see how many people regarded the poll as the utter foolishness which it is. When a look at the facts will show that Obama is not now and never has been a Muslim, I was astonished that 1 out of 5 Americans had not even bothered to check the facts. It is really discouraging to think that people who won't check information or recognize disinformation might think they were qualified voters.

Posted by: janebse | August 19, 2010 8:26 PM | Report abuse

I was so happy to see how many people regarded the poll as the utter foolishness which it is. When a look at the facts will show that Obama is not now and never has been a Muslim, I was astonished that 1 out of 5 Americans had not even bothered to check the facts. It is really discouraging to think that people who won't check information or recognize disinformation might think they were qualified voters.

Posted by: janebse | August 19, 2010 8:26 PM | Report abuse

Kaddafi - Welcome back! If nothing else, I was admiring of your tenacity and stamina today.

And I want some assurance that PontiusPilot will remain true to his Roman roots, and not go all Mohammedan on us like that CassiusClay dude.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 8:29 PM | Report abuse

KDE - you just contradicted yourself. Earlier you used a racial definition for being a Muslim, and now you are refuting this definition.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Jumper lied: "Your post is most illogical, Kaddafi... why did you lie to us about the man with the fatal disease?"]

If I'm "illogical" and "lying", then you should have no trouble demonstrating your specious assertions.

You won't because you can't. The cited evidence stands and your denials are empty.

People believe Obama is Muslim because he was a practicing Muslim. This matters because Obama is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion-- who (under sharia law) is subject to the most severe penalties. Obama's apostate status clearly has enormous implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.

Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
http://www.danielpipes.org/5354/confirmed-barack-obama-practiced-islam

In sum: The cited evidence demonstrates that Obama was an irregularly practicing Muslim who rarely or occasionally prayed with his step-father in a mosque. This precisely substantiates my statement that he "for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father."

Therefore, what Greg considers a media alsehood is in fact confirmed by evidence as truthful and accurate. The fact that so few understand this about Obama is a testimony to the Obamedia puppets disinformation and denial campaigns.

Denying Obama's Muslim heritage is in itself a falsehood.

One disastrous effect of Obama's status as a Muslim apostate was the way it emboldens Islamo-supremacists.

Take the case of Kaddafi; who clearly insists that Obama is a Muslim and hopes "that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity... and that America will establish relations that will serve it well with other peoples, especially the Arabs."

Apparently, Kaddafi got his wish in Obama's submissiveness to the Lockerbie bomber release.
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/26/did-the-obama-administration-push-for-lockerbie-bombers-release/

Kaddafi will celebrate that odious anniversary with Megrahi tomorrow.

I challenge anyone to demonstrate otherwise.

*crickets chirp*

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 8:30 PM | Report abuse

One in five vastly underestimates the incidence of ignorance in America.

Posted by: -tao-

_____________________________________


Ignorance or true stupidity? Ignorant people are often willing to be proven wrong or desire to learn the truth.

America's (and the world's) problem seems to be more systemic. I believe we're going backwards, from a biological standpoint.

Posted by: veerle1 | August 19, 2010 8:33 PM | Report abuse

You should give Jack Shafer credit for originating the use of the term numbskull in this context.

Posted by: jethro1 | August 19, 2010 8:36 PM | Report abuse

They can have a mosque wherever they want, however the immensity of disrespect by putting it as close as possible to the towers will not be tolerated by myself and should be opposed with as much intensity as it takes. "Change" has always come from the more vigilant side of the debate. Quieting down people who share your opinion in favor of gaining popularity is absurd in my opinion.

Posted by: ahswimmer2007 | August 19, 2010 8:38 PM | Report abuse

Yes, there are many stupid people in this country. Look at how many people believe that JFK was assassinated as part of some big plot. Look how many stupid people believe that Bush contrived the whole reason for attacking Iraq.

Posted by: RVZ555 | August 19, 2010 8:38 PM | Report abuse

One problem is that the Greatest Generation is dying off and the elderly now are the so-called Silent Generation of bigots and red-baiters from the McCarthy era. (most of this generation has already died off and thank God they overcame and endured what they did). That's why so many old people are suddenly so conservative (old people are usually always conservative in the main). It isn't that older people have gotten more conservative so much as it is a right-wing mini-generation has gotten old (right wing mini generation? What does this even mean?). When the death panels wipe out these morons (takes one to know one) we'll have the Boomers in the elderly chair. And that'll be lots of fun... (I’m sure it will be, and being one, I can assure you it’s not going to be pretty.)

Posted by: mayflowerboy | August 19, 2010 8:41 PM | Report abuse

Kaddafi - Is humorlessness just a pose for you, or are you genuinely incapable of recognizing a gentle bit of ribbing?

Yes, we all love our Cato, and are glad that Carthage was destroyed. But c'mon, if your alias prominently features "Kaddafi", and you insist upon commenting at a blog written by a bright humorous guy with commenters who enjoy a bit of wordplay, then your handle is fair game.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

It cracks me up when you poke it with a stick, Bob-S and baldinho.

Posted by: Yoki | August 19, 2010 8:43 PM | Report abuse

KDE - I do not question that those who follow a particularly narrow view of Muslim law might see fit to claim Obama. But I strongly doubt that those Americans who answered the poll in question are in this group. In other words, your argument fails to explain the poll results unless you can show that those 18 percent of Americans answered the way they did in deference to Islamic Law.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 8:43 PM | Report abuse

KDE - you are making a logical inference between Obama's actions and his alleged adherence to Islam without exploring other possible reasons. You are picking the one that fits your thesis and ignoring all others. This is like saying, say, that people who want to trim the branches hanging over power lines obviously hate trees.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 8:46 PM | Report abuse

Kaddafi, aren't there more deserving places you could go? Perhaps tell your truth to a group of your dear friends somewhere? There must be some other people in dire need of your information. After all, 4 of 5 people don't think he is a muslin. Onward, soldier, onward.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 8:50 PM | Report abuse

[RD_Padouk sputtered: your argument fails to explain the poll results"]

I see. So, now you're moving the goalposts.

Cute. But ineffective.

But thanks for admitting that your "racial" smear was empty slander.

The cited evidence stands.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 8:50 PM | Report abuse

As I was growing up in Australia I became accustomed to the belief that Yanks were on the whole pretty stupid.
My first encounter was an anecdote whereby Australian soldiers during the Vietnam War were selling feathers to US soldiers.
The feathers were supposed to have come from kangaroo tails.
Things haven't changed.

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 19, 2010 8:51 PM | Report abuse

The key assumption with the mosque is that putting it two blocks from ground zero is disrespectful. This is a subjective statement, not an objective one.

Speaking for myself, as one who saw the violence of that day here in Virginia with my own eyes, I do not find this disrespectful.

If anything, I find it an inspiring example that the religious bigotry of the 9-11 terrorists hasn't destroyed our respect for protection of law for everyone.

So please, don't anyone dare speak for me on this matter.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 8:53 PM | Report abuse

No, KDE I am not moving the goalposts. I am supporting what Joel reported. This was a poll of Americans, not of fundamentalist Muslims.

And there was no smear. You indicated that being Muslim was not something that could be undone by deed. This means you consider it is an intrinsic part of his identity, which is a racial definition.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 8:57 PM | Report abuse

[RD_Padouk asserts: "KDE - you are making a logical inference between Obama's actions and his alleged adherence to Islam"]

I did no such thing. The inference fallacy lies in Obama cultists who can't (or won't) remove their blinkers long enough to look squarely and objectively at the question.

One need not accept the Muslim point of view to understand that is how they regard Obama. Looking at it from their religious perspective, Obama is (objectively) an apostate Muslims.

That simple fact is not open to denial.

I’d also like to reiterate how bigotted, ignorant and intolerant it is of Leftists to condemn the spiritual perspective of Muslims who faithfully obey Islam by recognizing Obama as a Muslim apostate.

By what authority do these Leftists excommunicate (takfir) devout jihadists when they enforce the sharia fatwas, endorsed by the Corboba House sharia law advocates?

Again, the prerogative to issue apostacy fatwas is granted only to Islam’s prophet, or authoritative representatives of the Ummah— which are Leftists invoking?

Have Cordoba House’s handlers in the Apartheid Kingdom of Saudi Arabia or the Muslim Brotherhood approved these anti-Muslim fatwas?

Don’t take my word for it: Apostacy fatwas are absolutely Islamic across every major school of Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Own it, Obama cultists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 8:57 PM | Report abuse

Of course, some Americans can be fundamentalist Muslims. But that isn't my interpretation of the demographics so polled.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 8:58 PM | Report abuse

I think cable news stations and Internet news have destroyed any sense of credibility and truth in reporting. EVERYTHING reported is politicized or biased these days. There is so much polarization. If you watch Fox News then you believe Obama is a Muslim and he was not born in the USA. Everyone's credibility is called into question these days.

America has lost its way, for sure. We have an entire political party bent on destroying our president along with the country.

Posted by: citizen4truth1 | August 19, 2010 9:00 PM | Report abuse

I remember my father giving me a feather. He told me he'd bought it from a poor Australian who was so dumb that he thought kangaroos had tail feathers. Felt sorry for the bloke.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 9:00 PM | Report abuse

..."I agree with you/sir/1000 PERCENT!

..."My God...this is what I've been writting about for months and months that the Republicans want American's dumb, they want to keep them stupid, and naive, and that way you can control them! Did you know we learned/I learned in Sociology in which I got my Bachlor's Degree that only 14%PERCENT of Tennesseans have a College Degree, and only 24% American's have a College Degree, so you see, "We both are write, now you see how the REpublicans play the uneducated card, say the Mosque is at ground zero when in fact it's three blocks away, "But the uneducated believe the Republican lies, that start/create/problems for the country, and other races who want are a part of it!

..."Republicans have even convince the public that putting Republicans back in office is a good thing even though they lost a record 8.5 Million jobs, the uneducated believe the President and Democrats made this Mess Republicans left the country in when the country threw them out!

Party of "NO/Republicans have in fact ruined you good America, and I must say; only an Uneducated/Fool would put them back in, after the Criminal/MESS they left you/America in!

Posted by: ztcb41 | August 19, 2010 9:01 PM | Report abuse

There has been a massive dumbing down of this country since Bush/Cheney came into office. The No Child Left Behind was a joke but no one is laughing. Massive cuts to education and school lunch programs have hurt us all. How about the negation of science and massive attacks of Darwin? I'm glad I graduated high school when LBJ was president in 1967 and we all respected our teachers. The Baby Boomers truly enjoyed education and more of us went to college than any other generation. The best part of it all was we didn't have computers.

Posted by: jhs49 | August 19, 2010 9:04 PM | Report abuse

It was fast getting through the kit this afternoon. Just skim to the handles. Skip the rhetoric.
Joel, time for a kit on tomatoes.

Posted by: bh72 | August 19, 2010 9:05 PM | Report abuse

You are spiraling now KDE. I agree that to some Muslims Obama is a Muslim. But you never demonstrate that this is why people answered the poll the way they did. Nor did you prove that Obama has acted the way he has in certain international situations for any reason other than what is best for America. You just assert that this fits your thesis.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 9:05 PM | Report abuse

You are spiraling now KDE. I agree that to some Muslims Obama is a Muslim. But you never demonstrate that this is why people answered the poll the way they did. Nor did you prove that Obama has acted the way he has in certain international situations for any reason other than what is best for America. You just assert that this fits your thesis.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 9:06 PM | Report abuse

[RD_Padouk lied: "You indicated that being Muslim was not something that could be undone by deed."]

No, I did not. I merely cited the univeral position of authoritative Muslim scholars. I do not agree with them. As much as I appreciate your respect for my views, that does not obviate THEIR perspectives. I would be most pleased to hear the President refute their sharia law interpretations.

Regretably, Obama clearly supports the sharia law advocates of Cordoba House. I simply take the President at his word that he regards their sharia law positions as valid and worthy of his submissive posturing.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 9:07 PM | Report abuse

I wonder what the followers of the dead plastic Ferdinand Marcos think of this subject...

Posted by: Nymous | August 19, 2010 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Obama may be a Christian as he says he is. After all Jeremiah Wright was his pastor for 20 years and we all know how Christian Wright is. Obama appears to have real affection for the islamic religion of his father and he speaks with great emotion of that religion. His middle name is Hussein. So pardon all us dumbells for reaching that conclusion. But actually if we are in fact stupid it is for falling for the Obama propaganda in November, 1968. Obama is a consummate con man and the press falling in love with him deprived us of facts and facts and more facts about this most incompetent president.

Posted by: mhr614 | August 19, 2010 9:08 PM | Report abuse

As much as I don't relish the idea of donning my Internet hip waders and stepping into this NumbSkuagmire of a Boodle, I think that the character, abilities, and accomplishments of a person are not measured by faith or religious practices, sexual preferences, ethnic background or skin color.

I am sure that President Obama is not a Muslim, but I could care less if he were.

I do find the combination of troubled economic times, the rise of radical politics and the tide of anti-Islamism somewhat reminscent of Germany in the 1930s.

But we're Americans, *we* learn from the past and we're better than that, aren't we?

You betcha.

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 19, 2010 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Are Americans total numb skulls? Well, 1/3 of adults haven't graduated from high school. 1/3 of those who have graduated from high school cannot function at an academic level above 7th grade. So, about half of the adult population has 'challenges' with respect to intellectual and analytical skills.

Posted by: drlatham22 | August 19, 2010 9:09 PM | Report abuse

KDE: again, if we assume that what you rant is correct, that all muslims view Obama as a fallen muslim and therefore worthy of death, so what? Does that make Obama a muslim? No, it does not.

Obama was never a muslim. He is not an apostate, except in your mind. You have every right to that opinion, just as I have every right to think you are a loon.

Word to KDE: I know several muslims. I talk with them frequently. They do not view him as a fallen muslim.

I am sure to you that islam is some cult with some warrior ethos like the bloods or crips that nobody can ever leave, even if they were never in the gang. That you think that does not make it so.

Just sayin.

Sorry for giving in to your trollishness. Please go save more worthy people.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 9:13 PM | Report abuse


Better Question:

Are Liberals total numbskulls?
That answer is much easier.

UNEQUIVOCALLY YES!

Posted by: chicago77 | August 19, 2010 9:14 PM | Report abuse

Why on earth should Obama refute the beliefs of certain Islamic scholars? The Constitution guarantees those scholars the right to their beliefs, as well as the right to express those beliefs where and when they wish. And Obama has been gratifyingly clear in supporting those Constitutional freedoms.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 9:15 PM | Report abuse

Hey bob-s
All Australian kids know which end of a kangaroo the feather grows from.
Your dad must have bought the feather from an Austrian.
We have a saying here that you "cant polish a turd."
No amount of spin will make your argument smell like roses.
...the feathers that is.

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 19, 2010 9:15 PM | Report abuse

While I'm not confident of the accuracy of drlatham22's statistics, a result indicating that half of Americans are below average at, well, anything is somehow unsurprising.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 9:15 PM | Report abuse

[RD_Padouk whined: "You are spiraling now... you never demonstrate that this is why people answered the poll the way they did."]

Moving the goalpost will not avail you. Your Jedi mind powers have no effect on me.

But thanks (again!) for admitting that your "racial" smear was empty slander.

And the cited evidence stands.

Try harder.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 9:16 PM | Report abuse

Now here is a President who hides in secrecy and preaches transparency but offers none. He has told so many lies he is lost in them. He has made so many promises he never had any intention to keep. I find it hard to think of him as a Christian. He has never referred to Christ or Jesus. He did not celebrate the National Day of Prayer but attends a Ramadan dinner. He bows to a Saudi despot but insults Israel. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, gee, it must be a duck. The Bible says you will know them by their works. In this case, we know what he is not. But at this point who cares. He is toast in 2012.

Posted by: greatgran1 | August 19, 2010 9:16 PM | Report abuse

Aussie - LOL! Yep, that was probably it. Those crafty Austrians.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Wow RD padouk, you are showing some serious mettles today. Now, what are those mettles exactly?
Looking at the Senate's composition it is not hard to conclude that at least 20% of American are numbskulls. The funny bit is that this 20% of American numbskulls actually controls the senate. The tyranny of the rural morons. We just love rural numbskulls, they are the best, as numbskulls go.
City numbskulls living in their parents' basement and profiting from their high speed internet access aren't as funny. Rural numbskulls rules. They are a tiny minority but they rule.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 19, 2010 9:20 PM | Report abuse

The Daily Mash: "Outrage over plans to build library next to Sarah Palin"

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/outrage-over-plans-to-build-library-next-to-sarah-palin-201008193017/

Posted by: byoolin1 | August 19, 2010 9:21 PM | Report abuse

Also, was Jesus a Christian? Discuss.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 19, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Its scientifically proven that junk food, (you do know what junk food is).
I'd better be careful what I say or I might get extradited to the USA and get sued for libel.
I repeat, Its scientifically proven that junk food rots the brain, hence mind, hence action...
isn't the USA the home of junk food.

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 19, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Yes 1/5 are numbskulls. Its been proven time and time again.
---Ask how many people believe there WERE WMD in Iraq: 1/5
---Ask how many believe there is a world-wide conspiracy among scientists to promoite climate change: 1/5.
---Ask how many believed Nixon did nothing wrong: 1/5
---Ask how many, in the 1950s, though fluoridation of water was a communist conspiracy: 1/5
---Ask how many think Rock Hudson could not have been gay: 1/5
---Ask how many in the 1960s believe there were flying saucers kept secret by our government: 1/5

There are a lot of numbskulls in the US, and there are that many in the world as well. The problem is when a political party starts relying on the votes of those 1/5. When that happens the numbskull's paranoia and stupidity is preyed upon, planting anything they like into their heads for political gain. What the republicans and conservatives are doing is not new. Its been done for centuries to gain political points. Ask a conservative where the death panels are and whether they care they were lied to. My guess is they know it was a lie and do not care. That is not a numbskull, that is something else.

Posted by: Fate1 | August 19, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

"Your Jedi mind powers have no effect on me."

Truer words were never spoken.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

The nice thing about comments is that there is a record. I leave it to the future historians to look through this comment section as see if I am moving goalposts or slandering anyone.

I am confident in the verdict.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 19, 2010 9:23 PM | Report abuse

please add my vote: "yes". thank you.

Posted by: uninformedbystander | August 19, 2010 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Looking at facts about who's knowledgeable and who's ignorant in American affairs, Pew Research does polls showing which media audiences are the best informed. The results are consistent. CBS News is the most ignorant audience of any major network. Fox, CNN, and ABC are tied with each other, far above CBS. Daily newspaper readers are more informed than the broadcast network audiences. The Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity audiences score as much better informed than even the daily newspaper readers. I know this comes as a surprise to many Democrats, but the dirty little secret that anyone who looks at the demographics knows is that Democrats consistently score at the bottom regarding actual knowledge.

Posted by: ThisIsReality | August 19, 2010 9:25 PM | Report abuse

To the headline question, "Are Americans total numbskulls?" the answer is YUP, at least 20% are!

Posted by: MadamDeb | August 19, 2010 9:25 PM | Report abuse

He was born a Jew after all. It must have been difficult, hating Jesus while you are him.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 19, 2010 9:26 PM | Report abuse

[baldinho shrieked: "again, if we assume that what you rant is correct, that all muslims view Obama as a fallen muslim and therefore worthy of death, so what?"]

Please cite an authoritative Muslim source that refute apostacy fatwas.

I never asserted that Obama is a Muslim. I merely agree that Muslims regard Obama as an apostate Muslim. And that makes all the difference in the world.

I’d also like to reiterate how bigotted, ignorant and intolerant it is of Leftists to condemn the spiritual perspective of Muslims who faithfully obey Islam by recognizing Obama as a Muslim apostate.

By what authority do these Leftists excommunicate (takfir) devout jihadists when they enforce the sharia fatwas, endorsed by the Corboba House sharia law advocates?

Again, the prerogative to issue apostacy fatwas is granted only to Islam’s prophet, or authoritative representatives of the Ummah— which are Leftists invoking?

Have Cordoba House’s handlers in the Apartheid Kingdom of Saudi Arabia or the Muslim Brotherhood approved these anti-Muslim fatwas?

Don’t take my word for it: Apostacy fatwas are absolutely Islamic across every major school of Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Own it, Obama cultists.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 9:26 PM | Report abuse

No, America was not tolerant early on especially not of Catholics. And how 'bout the Mormons? Americans are not the saints you want them to be.

Posted by: beoods | August 19, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Oh, yes, of course Achenbach is a member of the educated literati while everyone who disagrees is a "numbskull." I would say anyone who continues to read his drivel after this column is truly a numbskull.

Posted by: NoWayNotNow | August 19, 2010 9:28 PM | Report abuse

Last comment...gotta work
The 1/5
I believe that its 20% or 1/5 that provide 80% of the profits for our bars.
Is that the same people that are behind the stats????

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 19, 2010 9:31 PM | Report abuse

[ate1 sneered: "Ask how many people believe there WERE WMD in Iraq:"]

Moving the goalposts AND changing the subject? Delicious!

The 22 legitimate casus belli cited by Congress against Saddam were clear: Saddam did try to kill a former American president; the U.N. embargo was violated (as were its inspection protocols); the 1991 accords were ignored; the genocide of brave Kurds did happen; suicide bombers were being given bounties; terrorists (including those involved into the 1993 World Trade Center bombing) were given sanctuary by Saddam; and on and on.

Clearly, Fate1 prefers the rape rooms of Qusay and Uday to the elected government of our new Iraqi allies.

Don’t spit Islamo-supremacism propaganda your whole life, Fate1.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Obama is Muslim? I hear he is also female and white. So why does this matter? What a sad country.

Posted by: uninformedbystander | August 19, 2010 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Denizen, wasn't Jesus born Jew and while he as waiting to become a Christian he was a Jedi Knight? I think I got that right.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 9:40 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Denizen, wasn't Jesus born Jew and while he as waiting to become a Christian he was a Jedi Knight? I think I got that right.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 9:40 PM | Report abuse

The few people who are commenting that there is no proof that Obama isn't a Muslim or that he is a Christian amaze me. No one ever refuses to believe another person when they state their religion. Partly because there is no way to prove it, and partly because why bother? What I'd like to see is a presidential campaign - or any political campaign - where religion doesn't even come up. Religion is personal and they shouldn't even be asked.

Posted by: bgormley1 | August 19, 2010 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Denizen, isn't it true that Jesus was born a Jew and while he was waiting to become a Christian he was a Jedi Knight? I think I've got that right.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, Kaddafi, I have to leave now and join the company of my loving wife and darling child. I will rest with my heart full of love tonight.

Tomorrow, I may appear on this blog again. When I do, it will be to share opinions and crack jokes with people who I respect.

You can continue to post your stuff all over the web. Hope you enjoy YOUR time when the computer is shut off.

Shalom.

Posted by: baldinho | August 19, 2010 9:44 PM | Report abuse

Here's the White House on the President's religion:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/08/19/4931459-obama-a-christian-for-the-record-again

For what it's worth to this crowd.

Good one, Talitha! You go girl!

Posted by: slyness | August 19, 2010 9:44 PM | Report abuse

ThisIsReality - I know this comes as a surprise to many people who can't perform simple a statistical analysis, but most well-informed people of all political stripes are aware of those Pew Research results. They've been reported in the Washington Post more than once.

But then, "well-informed" people are, pretty much by definition, in the minority.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 9:44 PM | Report abuse

[RD_Padouk whined: "I leave it to the future historians to look through this comment section as see if I am moving goalposts or slandering anyone. I am confident in the verdict."]

Thanks (again!) for admitting that your "racial" smear was empty slander.

And the cited evidence (of Obama's status as a Muslim apostate) stands.

Grade: F- (miserable failure)

/checkmate

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 9:45 PM | Report abuse

The presidents (and Congress) religious persuasion and cultural background are important. Example: If I am pro-abortion, I would never vote for a catholic president or member of Congress. It is against the catholic beliefs to support abortions. There are many similar things tied to each religion and culture.
Other voter can strongly disagree with that but my vote is my vote alone and is not obligated to what any other voter beliefs. I have the right to select in accordance with my criteria and other voters have the right to select and vote in accordance with their criteria.
Anyone who runs for public office must be prepared to be scrutinized and evaluated based on many personal voter values.
The Whitehouse was quick to claim that Obama is a Christian and not a Muslim.
Considering the number of lies uttered by Obama, this statement must also be a lie.
Obama’s actions support the belief that he is a Muslim and I will belief he is one until I see PROOF that says otherwise.
The Whitehouse has yet to open Obama’s records to prove that is leally president.
Apparently not being a Muslim in the eye of the public is more important than to be legally president of the US in the eye of the public.
What sensible person would hide as much as possible of his background information and have a constant cloud of suspicion hanging over his head for no good reason?
Obama totally disregards the polls and the will of the public because he cannot run for re-election in 2012 when he will be required to proof that he is an eligible candidate in order to register in many stated as a candidate for the office of president.
All of his destructive moves make sense if you assume that he will not run in 2012.

Posted by: duif100 | August 19, 2010 9:47 PM | Report abuse

ooopsy - white screen of death - tired boodle

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 9:47 PM | Report abuse

The presidents (and Congress) religious persuasion and cultural background are important. Example: If I am pro-abortion, I would never vote for a catholic president or member of Congress. It is against the catholic beliefs to support abortions. There are many similar things tied to each religion and culture.
Other voters can strongly disagree with that but my vote is my vote alone and is not obligated to what any other voter believe. I have the right to select in accordance with my criteria and other voters have the right to select and vote in accordance with their criteria.
Anyone who runs for public office must be prepared to be scrutinized and evaluated based on many personal voter values.
The Whitehouse was quick to claim that Obama is a Christian and not a Muslim.
Considering the number of lies uttered by Obama, this statement must also be a lie.
Obama’s actions support the belief that he is a Muslim and I will belief he is one until I see PROOF that says otherwise.
The Whitehouse has yet to open Obama’s records to prove that is leally president.
Apparently not being a Muslim in the eye of the public is more important than to be legally president of the US in the eye of the public.
What sensible person would hide as much as possible of his background information and have a constant cloud of suspicion hanging over his head for no good reason?
Obama totally disregards the polls and the will of the public because he cannot run for re-election in 2012 when he will be required to proof that he is an eligible candidate in order to register in many stated as a candidate for the office of president.
All of his destructive moves make sense if you assume that he will not run in 2012.

Posted by: duif100 | August 19, 2010 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Your insight is priceles NoWayNotNow. Score yourself as one of those hopeless, useless twits.
Making being educated a defect is wrong. Period.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 19, 2010 9:49 PM | Report abuse

And the remaining 80 percent are rocket scientists? Sure it is ok to build a mosque, hopefully my great grandchildren can grow up under Sharia Law. You really can't see that coming down the pike? Then you tunnel vision is more debilitating than the ignorance of the 20 percent.

Posted by: williams3061 | August 19, 2010 9:50 PM | Report abuse

I must say I am deeply amused by the insistence that Obama prove a negative. We all know how that goes.

Posted by: Yoki | August 19, 2010 9:52 PM | Report abuse

chollynickabocka, that is an absolutely brilliant analysis of the problem. May I have your permission to post it on FB, with appropriate attribution, of course? If you'd like for me to include your real name rather than your nym, you can email me, williamsstephens @ gmail, and I'll include it.

In any case, I'm saving your comment, which is remarkable for both brevity and clarity.

Posted by: leighwilliams | August 19, 2010 9:55 PM | Report abuse

[Yoki sputtered: "I must say I am deeply amused by the insistence that Obama prove a negative."]

Your amusement is with the sharia law advocates of Cordoba House-- not patriotic Americans. That is the nature of apartheid Islamo-supremacism.

Get used to it. Obama clearly has.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 9:59 PM | Report abuse

The cited evidence stands and the Leftist-Quisling denials are empty.

People believe Obama is Muslim because he was a practicing Muslim. This matters because Obama is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion-- who (under sharia law) is subject to the most severe penalties. Obama's apostate status clearly has enormous implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.

Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
http://www.danielpipes.org/5354/confirmed-barack-obama-practiced-islam

In sum: The cited evidence demonstrates that Obama was an irregularly practicing Muslim who rarely or occasionally prayed with his step-father in a mosque. This precisely substantiates cited evidence that Obama for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father.

Therefore, what Leftist-Quislings consider a media alsehood is in fact confirmed by evidence as truthful and accurate. The fact that so few understand this about Obama is a testimony to the Obamedia puppets disinformation and denial campaigns.

Denying Obama's Muslim heritage is in itself a falsehood.

One disastrous effect of Obama's status as a Muslim apostate was the way it emboldens Islamo-supremacists.

Take the case of Kaddafi; who clearly insists that Obama is a Muslim and hopes "that this black man will take pride in his African and Islamic identity... and that America will establish relations that will serve it well with other peoples, especially the Arabs."

Apparently, Kaddafi got his wish in Obama's submissiveness to the Lockerbie bomber release.
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/07/26/did-the-obama-administration-push-for-lockerbie-bombers-release/

Kaddafi will celebrate that odious anniversary with Megrahi tomorrow.

I challenge anyone to demonstrate otherwise.

*crickets chirp*

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 10:04 PM | Report abuse

KDE, you've already got RD, baldino and Bob to deal with - I wouldn't take on Yoki if I were you! Tres formidable.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 19, 2010 10:05 PM | Report abuse

He's not a Muslim?

Posted by: GeorgeFUBush | August 19, 2010 10:07 PM | Report abuse

[talitha1 boasted: "I wouldn't take on Yoki if I were you! Tres formidable."]

*pffl* The cited evidence is what it is.

Bring it on.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 10:10 PM | Report abuse

I'm sorry, I failed to see the shrewd analytical thinking and the impressive pile of supporting facts in anotheractor's angry blog of 5:41 p.m. accusing me of sloppy thinking and failing to provide facts. Open your eyes and and you will find, to paraphrase the Declaration of Independence, that some "truths are self evident." I didn't realize my comments struck so close to home. Will it make you feel better if I agree with you?

Posted by: stepjohn2 | August 19, 2010 10:20 PM | Report abuse

Thank you for taking the time to attack Americans. The headline alone is enough to make you irrelevant.

Far be it for anyone to question a politician (they tend to be so truthful). He tells us he is one thing, but may be another. So possibly being a Muslim is the same a being a Alien.

If anyone ever cared to poll about you, I'm guessing that about 20% would consider you a journalist, the other 80% an Alien.

Posted by: nomorevinnie | August 19, 2010 10:25 PM | Report abuse

stepjohn2 - You are certainly correct that anotheractor repeated the sin. Nevertheless, it is a rather sloppy habit, and one best avoided.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 10:39 PM | Report abuse

Kaddafi, you are still illogical. It is unclear if you agree with, or disagree with, Islam. If you follow the tenets, say so. If not, reject them.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 10:42 PM | Report abuse

It is very rare that I regret a single moment I spent in the US Army defending our citizenry. Should KaddafiDelendaE prove to be an actual human citizen, and not a spambot, this is one of those times. My apologies in advance to spambots with more going for them.

Posted by: frostbitten1 | August 19, 2010 10:44 PM | Report abuse

You can't fool me. There are no kangaroos in Austria. I've seen the tee shirt to prove it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yellojkt/4851856434/in/set-72157624633363448/

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 10:44 PM | Report abuse

There has been only one Christian, and he died on the Cross.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 10:50 PM | Report abuse

"Nobody's perfect. Well, there was this one guy, but we killed him...." — Christopher Moore

That was one of the in-joke catch phrases on our vacation because one of our group was reading 'Lamb'. Another (our token high school student) was reading 'Pygmy' by Chuck Palahniuk. I muddled by way through 'Tropical Depression' by Laurence Shames.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 10:56 PM | Report abuse

nomorevinnie - Don't you bother to perform any research before you post comments? Your comment, "If anyone ever cared to poll about you, I'm guessing that about 20% would consider you a journalist, the other 80% an Alien" is somewhat akin to running up to the good mother Mary, sticking out your tongue, waggling your fingers about your ears, and chanting, "Nyah, nyah, nyah. You're a virgin!" Well, duh!

The man wrote a book entitled "Abducted by Aliens", for goodness sake. Is this the first time you've ever read a blog, or something? You're at the Washington Post website, not your cousin Kenny's once-monthly post at the Cornhusker Courier, nor the hip happenings at the very groovy but very local http://www.meatpacking-district.com/ .

Come on, now. At least try to pretend that this ain't your first time at the rodeo. Have a sense of humor. Play with the language a little bit. This is supposed to be fun, damn it!

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 10:58 PM | Report abuse

I remember reading a poll recently that 25% of Americans don't believe Obama was born in the U.S. Oh here it is from Media Matters for America:

"...a new Vanity Fair/60 Minutes poll reveals nearly one out of four Americans believe that President Barack Obama was born outside of the United States, with only 39% correctly stating he was born in Hawaii."

Posted by: paj18 | August 19, 2010 10:58 PM | Report abuse

Why do so many people believe Barack Obama is a Muslim? Because there is ample evidence that he was instructed in Islam as a child and like so many things about himself and his past, he's been less than transparent about who he really is and what he really thinks.

Barack Obama was registered with the religion of "Islam" by his stepfather at the Catholic Fransiskus Assisi school in Jakarta (source: AP photo of the registration taken by Tatan Syuflana in 2007) and attended Koran classes in school in Indonesia (sources: his autobiography and the column "Obama: Man of the World" by Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times, March 6, 2007). Further, Barack Obama recited the "opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer" (which also happen to be the Muslim declaration of faith -- "Allahu Akbar. Ash-had an la ilaha illa llah. Ash-hadu anna Muħammadan rasulullah." or "God is the most great. I testify that there is no deity except for God. I testify that Muhammad is a Messenger of God.") "with a first-rate accent" and described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.” (source: "Obama: Man of the World" by Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times, March 6, 2007).

So to deny that Barack Obama was considered a Muslim by his step-father, was instructed in the Koran, and has more than a casual familiarity with Islam is on par with denying the evidence that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii (which, by the way, the Fransiskus Assisi also supports). All of this evidence is solid and none of it comes from a hostile source trying to make him look bad.

Does that mean that he ever really believed in Islam or does today? Of course not. But there are many Muslims who would take his Muslim father and stepfather, the Koran classes, and his recitation of the Muslim declaration of faith to mean that he is, in fact, a Muslim and it begs the question, that nobody seems willing to ask him, of why he was essentially led to water (taught the Koran) but refused to drink it (didn't become a Muslim). Given his background, one should wonder why he isn't a Muslim.

Posted by: Question_Assumptions | August 19, 2010 10:59 PM | Report abuse

How many know he was born in Hawaii but don't think Hawaii is in the US?

Posted by: frostbitten1 | August 19, 2010 11:00 PM | Report abuse

[jumper1 sneered: "Kaddafi, you are still illogical. It is unclear if you agree with, or disagree with, Islam. If you follow the tenets, say so. If not, reject them."]

Your objection is not with me, but with the cited evidence.

I agree, Obama is illogical. It is unclear if Obama agrees or disagrees with the sharia law advocates of Cordoba House regarding his status as an apostate Muslim.

I also agree, Muslims are illogical on many levels; however, it is clear that their sharia law consistently regard Obama as an apostate Muslim.

If the cited evidence is illogical to Leftist-Quislings, then kindly demonstrate why? Cite your authoritative fatwas to the contrary. Otherwise, the cited evidence stands.

I really expected more convincing arguments from the (allegedly) non-numbskull Leftists.

Grade: F- (collosal failures)

/try harder

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 11:19 PM | Report abuse

I'm still waiting to see a kangaroo with feathers.

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 19, 2010 11:20 PM | Report abuse

Well, I think everybody knows that the "real America" comprises only the members of a few hundred communities and institutions that I could name, but won't, for fear that you godless liberals will target us with your unholy jihad against all thing decent and good.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 19, 2010 11:25 PM | Report abuse

I admire the thoroughness of all these devoted frothing hordes to their randomly sourced Obama-Muslim arcana, but I don't think Barack has ever denied having a Muslim father or having lived in Indonesia. In America you get to be what you want to be and nobody can pin a label on you that you don't want.

I've only really known two Muslims closely. One was a rabid Syrian nationalist but he was very good at making me aware of the many points of overlap between the Koran and the New Testament. Jesus is a prophet in the Koran, but not a deity.

The other guy was Indian and perhaps the most mild-mannered guy I ever met. We kept laughing at his defense of arranged marriages (despite the 20+ year longevity of his and the rather high divorce rate in the rest of our office) and his goal to marry off his American-raised son to a good Indian girl of his choosing. We kept telling him 'Good luck with that.'

Neither struck me as anyone willing to kill anyone for any reason, least of all over some nutty fatwah over apostasy. Perhaps like gay marriage, this silly trumped up issue over a community center would be laughed at if more people knew actual living Muslims and not the strawmen you find on Faux News.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 11:26 PM | Report abuse

So the Washington Post is asking us, "Who are you going to believe, us or your lying eyes?" I'm a Christian. Obama's a Muslim. We know what we see, we know what we hear. We're using our God, yes God, can I say that here, given ability to reason with. Obama is lying about this, like he lies about everything. Yes, he's a Muslim.

Qur’anic verse 3:28 is often seen as the primary verse that sanctions deception towards non-Muslims: “Let believers [Muslims] not take infidels [non-Muslims] for friends and allies instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with God—unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions.”[7]

Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d. 923), author of a standard and authoritative Qur’an commentary, explains verse 3:28 as follows:

If you [Muslims] are under their [non-Muslims'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them with your tongue while harboring inner animosity for them … [know that] God has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels rather than other believers—except when infidels are above them [in authority]. Should that be the case, let them act friendly towards them while preserving their religion.[8]

Regarding Qur’an 3:28, Ibn Kathir (d. 1373), another prime authority on the Qur’an, writes, “Whoever at any time or place fears … evil [from non-Muslims] may protect himself through outward show.” As proof of this, he quotes Muhammad’s close companion Abu Darda, who said, “Let us grin in the face of some people while our hearts curse them.” Another companion, simply known as Al-Hasan, said, “Doing taqiyya is acceptable till the Day of Judgment [i.e., in perpetuity].”[9]

He's a Muslim, and he's doing what Muslims do to infidels. Lying to you.

Posted by: aprilnovember811 | August 19, 2010 11:27 PM | Report abuse

Look at the Mullahs in Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran. I say many are barbarous and crazy. They have the bloodlust. But I see the same thing in the crazy Tea Party. They are made the same. Why these fanatics are not all treated the same is the mystery of our time.

They have come out en masse here today on this comments section. They, the right, are exactly equal to the Taliban. They are dangerous, deluded, savage, and horrible.

We have "jihadis" right here. They want to hide it but it's obvious. They are as if from the Bizarro world.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 19, 2010 11:28 PM | Report abuse

[yellojkt lied: "Jesus is a prophet in the Koran"]

An interesting (albeit irrelevant) assertion. Of course-- like denials of Obama's status as an apostate Muslim-- it's pernicious nonsense.

The historical Jesus of the Bible has no relation to the mythical "Isa" invented by Islamo-supremacists.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/durie/islamic_jesus.html

'Isa' of the Qur’an is a product of fable, imagination and ignorance. When Muslims venerate this 'Isa', they have someone different in mind from the Yeshua or Jesus of the Bible and of history. The ‘Isa of the Qur’an is based on no recognized form of historical evidence, but on fables current in seventh century Arabia.

For most faithful Muslims ‘Isa is the only Jesus they know. But if one accepts this Muslim ‘Jesus’, then one also accepts the Qur’an: one accepts Islam. Belief in this ‘Isa is won at the cost of the libel that Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures, a charge that is without historical support. Belief in this ‘Isa implies that much of Christian and Jewish history is in fact Islamic history.

The Jesus of the gospels is the base upon which Christianity developed. By Islamicizing him, and making of him a Muslim prophet who preached the Qur’an, Islam destroys Christianity and takes over all its history. It does the same to Judaism.

In the end times as described by Muhammad, ‘Isa becomes a warrior who will return with his sword and lance. He will destroy the Christian religion and make Islam the only religion in all the world. Finally at the last judgement he will condemn Christians to hell for believing in the crucifixion and the incarnation.

This final act of the Muslim ‘Isa reflects Islam’s apologetic strategy in relation to Christianity, which is to deny the Yeshua of history, and replace him with a facsimile of Muhammad, so that nothing remains but Islam.

"The Muslim supersessionist current claims that the whole biblical history of Israel and Christianity is Islamic history, that all the Prophets, Kings of Israel and Judea, and Jesus were Muslims. That the People of the Book should dare to challenge this statement is intolerable arrogance for an Islamic theologian. Jews and Christians are thus deprived of their Holy Scriptures and of their salvific value."

— Bat Ye’or in Islam and Dhimmitude: where civilizations collide, p.370.

But nice attempt to change the subject.

Posted by: KaddafiDelendaEst | August 19, 2010 11:37 PM | Report abuse

Achenbach: "The backers of the mosques are the good guys, the ones who preach tolerance."

"The good guys"?
You mean "professional liars."

You should learn something about the Big Lie Theory: The bigger a lie, the more likely it will be believed.

Muslims, with their 1,500 year history of violent jihad, are in no position to preach tolerance to anybody.

I don't care what these Muslims are preaching.

I care about what they have said, about the 9-11 attack, about terrorism in the Middle East. And what they have said are the same weasel words we used to get from Yasir Arafat before he--thank goodness--kicked the bucket.

And Arafat was no paragon of tolerance either.

Posted by: sinz52 | August 19, 2010 11:38 PM | Report abuse

Barack Obama is certainly no Muslim.

But he has failed to connect on a gut level with the American people on quite a number of issues now. He is the darling of the bicoastal urban left wing and NOBODY ELSE.

And that's his problem. Unlike FDR or Reagan, Obama has not been able to reach beyond his base to win the respect, if not admiration, of those who didn't work for his election. And the feeling seems to be mutual. I don't believe Obama knows or cares what the rest of us think about anything.

It's certainly clear that his liberal supporters don't care what non-liberals think about anything, judging by many of the comments that have been posted here. To liberals, everyone else is stupid and ignorant and have to be ordered around for their own good.

See you on Election Day.
Don't forget to vote.

Posted by: sinz52 | August 19, 2010 11:47 PM | Report abuse

Barack Obama is certainly no Muslim.

But he has failed to connect on a gut level with the American people on quite a number of issues now. He is the darling of the bicoastal urban left wing and NOBODY ELSE.

And that's his problem. Unlike FDR or Reagan, Obama has not been able to reach beyond his base to win the respect, if not admiration, of those who didn't work for his election. And the feeling seems to be mutual. I don't believe Obama knows or cares what the rest of us think about anything.

It's certainly clear that his liberal supporters don't care what non-liberals think about anything, judging by many of the comments that have been posted here. To liberals, everyone else is stupid and ignorant and have to be ordered around for their own good.

See you on Election Day.
Don't forget to vote.

Posted by: sinz52 | August 19, 2010 11:48 PM | Report abuse

I dunno about tolerence. If I were a Jew in the 15th century, I'd probably prefer my odds under the Caliphate then with the Inquisition. Because nobody expects...(all together now)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5McSEU48Y8

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 11:51 PM | Report abuse

Wow. This was not a day to skip the boodle. But it was a most amazing discussion to read.

Except for the fanatics. I am fanatically opposed to fanaticism.

Posted by: --dr-- | August 19, 2010 11:52 PM | Report abuse

When Bush was re-elected, I felt a real sense of unreality.
I asked a smart co-worker how that could happen.
Easy, she said. Half of the country has an IQ of less than 100.

Posted by: ACounter | August 20, 2010 12:00 AM | Report abuse

The famous Caliphate in Spain was pretty much gone by the 15th century, replaced by crazies and to be replaced by even worse crazies. Wasn't the Quijote translated from the Arabic?

I've stocked the bunker with mangoes, longans, a couple of mamey sapote, and Hiassen's new novel.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | August 20, 2010 12:00 AM | Report abuse

Stop Your Sneering Joel:

There is a major problem with your screed: Islam is Patrilinial. "Enrollment" in the faith at birth is automatic (as opposed to later-on conversion, which is also forever).

"Once a Muslim, always a Muslim"

The Koran and universal Sharia law, whatever the sect, is adamently clear about this. There is no discretion, whatsoever. The concept of free will/freedom of conscience, etc. does not exist in Islam.

For a child born of a Muslim father, there is only one outcome: the child is Muslim, period. The child, and later the adult, has no choice.

Barack Hussein Obama Jr's. father (and indeed the remainder of Jr's. family on his father's side) indisputably are Muslim. The President, in the eyes of 1.8 Billion Muslims (ratified by the Koran and Sharia law) IS a Muslim.

This presents an interesting dillema for the multicultural PC crowd: Who are we to denigrate Islam (and Muslims) by rebuking or ignoring its universal belief system?

Apostacy is perhaps the greatest sin for a Muslim. It is forbidden, absolutely. Muslims who renounce their faith forefit their life, a sentence that is routinely threatened/enforced, worldwide. Just when was it, Joel, that Obama rejected his Muslim faith?

I think I'll go with the Muslims on this one: Obama is a Muslim, whether he (or you) like it, or not.

Posted by: brucehodge9 | August 20, 2010 12:00 AM | Report abuse

I am the nephew, grandson, and great-grandson of Methodist ministers, and have had very (very) close personal contact with girls and women of many other Christian denominations.

Given my very, very intimate contact with various aspects of Christianity, I feel confident stating that no true Christian has such a fetish to obtain such freakishly detailed knowledge of Muslim minutiae as KaddafiDelendaEst & Aprilnovember811. Ergo, they are untrustworthy sources.

I know the sulfurous stench of the apostate when he and she draws near. If need be, I lick them all over, just to make sure.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 12:05 AM | Report abuse

Why dont we ask the Rosthchilds who are worth 100 to 500 trillion dollars, yes thats 2 to 8 times the world output per year.
See
http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/world-economic-indicators/world-gdp.html

Thats 7 to 70 times the GDP of the good old USA
They own the world.
give them a call.

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 12:19 AM | Report abuse

Well, my Muslim coworker sure thought he was the same Jesus. Virgin mother named Mary. Cured lepers. Ascended into heaven. Sounds like the guy.

At least Muhammad went around winning wars and creating an empire AND starting a major religion. Poor Josh had to wait for his buddies to start running around and getting martyred.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 12:25 AM | Report abuse

Welcome, Australia! I like you.

A Canadian.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 12:26 AM | Report abuse

Aussie - You come from proud stock that peddles kangaroo feathers. You're hardly in a position to criticize hardball capitalist exploitation.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 12:27 AM | Report abuse

Hey Bob-s
How dare you create aspersions upon the fine minds of Australians
Quote:
"I remember my father giving me a feather. He told me he'd bought it from a poor Australian who was so dumb that he thought kangaroos had tail feathers. Felt sorry for the bloke."

Now your telling us that your truth is more truer than others because of your lineage.
I think you have got a hold of the roo by the wrong end.

You know that the fog of good American folk cant differentiate 'tween Austria and Australia.

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 12:29 AM | Report abuse

Aaahhh, that's true. I did concede that my father might have got his from an Austrian.

But, then, it was you who bragged that you'd heard the stories about Australians pulling the same scam.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 12:33 AM | Report abuse

Come on, boys. Funny you, both.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 12:34 AM | Report abuse

While were at it.
That 1 in 5 is the exact number who provide 80% of the profits for what we call pubs and you call bars.
We call those folk "barflies", cause they just hang around bars all day long, mostly sprouting inebriated bullshit.
Is that the same 1/5 or 20% you have over there?

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 12:36 AM | Report abuse

How can the Rosthchilds own the world? They're still drawing a paycheck from the Elders of Zion. Payable from the Bavarian Bank of the Illuminati.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 12:37 AM | Report abuse

As a business development executive and guru, I say 20/80.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 12:39 AM | Report abuse

Is not most of the USA economy got its finger in the scam pie?
Or am I courting extradition for what I say????

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 12:42 AM | Report abuse

American numbskulls? That would be Obama and his Democratic Congress. With the country in the midst of a depression, with millions of people out of work, with real deaths, families destroyed, they managed to ignore it all and engage in phony healthcare "reform", tossed billions of dollars to Wall Street and corporations who turned around and invested the money offshore, laid off even more US workers, and rubbed our noses in their public greed. When Obama had them over a barrel he let them off. Too busy fighting the cultural wars, I guess. And you wonder why people think he is a Muslim? Why double that number don't think Obama believes in much of anything? Look, the more we have gotten to know Mr. Obama and the entire Democratic leadership the more we have come to loathe them. And make no mistake, we do not trust and don't particularly like the Republican's either. We figure by imposing "term limits" we might get the attention of a few of the fools on Capital Hill and they will end this free trade nonsense, job outsourcing, re-enact sky high trade tariffs which will both add revenue to the federal budget and put and end to cheap Chinese and Indian and other Asian imports and spark the creation of American jobs to produce those products. Oh, and if anyone so much as blathers about a "trade war", when the very existence of this country is at stake, they need to run out of Washington on a rail, tarred and feathered, stripped of their US citizenship, and sure as hell better be a Muslim because they wont find a home here for long.

Posted by: mibrooks27 | August 20, 2010 12:46 AM | Report abuse

When you peddle the bullshit to the uninitiated and keep them in the dark, you get mushrooms.....
then you can fill them with whatever you like and do your bidding...
where to next???
those that matter will just roll on...

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 12:47 AM | Report abuse

I am a man of men of women of people who knew somebody who read of The Book, and take its proscriptions and prescriptions quite seriously.

Every -- Genesis 1:20-22
body -- Leviticus 16:4
must -- Exodus 28:35
get -- Job 36:3
stoned -- Hebrews 11:37

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 1:01 AM | Report abuse

Aussie - Hard to offend us here. Just don't forget that somewhere buried deep in its soul, it's a humor blog.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 1:07 AM | Report abuse

hard to see the humour, or humor as you spell it when the body bags keep piling up.
First, when are you going to haul Bush and his crony sycophants/controllers/schemers whatever before the courts and get some justice for the lies that hauled the people to war.
I'm talking about justice on this earth and not in some far off la la land.

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 1:17 AM | Report abuse

I suspect obama is christian because billy graham's son, franklin said so. otherwise i would not beleive it and the main reason i wouldn't believe it is because the atheistic, humanistic, secular MSM tries so hard to convince us that he's a christian. i don't trust the MSM and if they insist hes a christian there must be a rat somewhere. He cowtows to islamic fundamentalists, loves the sound of islamic calls to prayer, was raised partly ina muslim country has a muslim father and shuns christian leadersc and says america is not a christian country but it is a muslim country and then comes to get some free applause at a ramadan dinner by endorsing a position that would surely offend many who voted for him and you still think he's on the up and up. you guys in the media have never worked so hard to prove someone is a christian. that's what makes me most ss

Posted by: harbinger317 | August 20, 2010 1:26 AM | Report abuse

I suspect obama is christian because billy graham's son, franklin said so. otherwise i would not beleive it and the main reason i wouldn't believe it is because the atheistic, humanistic, secular MSM tries so hard to convince us that he's a christian. i don't trust the MSM and if they insist hes a christian there must be a rat somewhere. He cowtows to islamic fundamentalists, loves the sound of islamic calls to prayer, was raised partly ina muslim country has a muslim father and shuns christian leadersc and says america is not a christian country but it is a muslim country and then comes to get some free applause at a ramadan dinner by endorsing a position that would surely offend many who voted for him and you still think he's on the up and up. you guys in the media have never worked so hard to prove someone is a christian. that's what makes me most ss

Posted by: harbinger317 | August 20, 2010 1:27 AM | Report abuse

Please feel free to spell whatever you wish, however you wish. While I'm just a dumb ole American boy, we employ a staff of Canadians to translate when necessary.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 1:28 AM | Report abuse

Humour. Favour. Neighbour. Honour.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 1:31 AM | Report abuse

It's almost always the right time for some thoughts from Von Drehle:

"Fighting Words"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071300569.html


Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 1:34 AM | Report abuse

Thanks kin'ly, Yoki!

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 1:36 AM | Report abuse

I give up.
It sounds like we have a religous war in the making.
I can hear the late night polishing of bullets and bayonets.
In the supermarket of mindsets, we all have our choice.
Thereby goes yours and mine lives.
Peace be with you.

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 1:37 AM | Report abuse

Thanks too, you dumb ol' country-boy, you.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 1:44 AM | Report abuse

He's actually a Hindu/Communist/Animist/Sikh/Socialist/Muslim/Fascist/Civil Libertarian/Frenchman/Jew/Pagan.

Place of birth: Siberia

Posted by: farnaz_mansouri2 | August 20, 2010 1:46 AM | Report abuse

AustraliaForever - I'm really, really sincere when I say this: The people with whom you have serious disagreements aren't me or the regulars here. I'd consider it a delight to look forward to future insightful commentary from you. Even though I am in fact an ignorant clown, Yoki is usually available as a translator.

I yanked your chain a bit because you were giving evidence of a sense of humour (a highly valued trait in this neighbourhood) and because we both needed a break from the drearily self-important proclamations being trumpeted by others.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 1:53 AM | Report abuse

The Cult of Certainty lives on..yoh
Might is Right and Right is Might.
When in Doubt, shoot first....
Those pesky varmits...when the whites of their eyes are seen...
blow them away I say...immediately
question late, if ever at all

Reminds me...
have the Rosthchilds answered that call...
hark...laddy...must hurry for I'll be late

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 1:57 AM | Report abuse

farnaz_mansouri - I had one of those for an appetizer once. Tasted just like chicken!

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 1:58 AM | Report abuse

Don't like 80% of the people in the world believe in a God or something similar?? Do we need any more proof about people (American or otherwise) "really being that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?" It would be hard to come up with much more of an open-and-shut case than "there is no God".

Posted by: spunkydawg1 | August 20, 2010 2:04 AM | Report abuse

Yes the STUPID QUOTIENT has risen in America, along with the number of ill-informed, aka ignoroant electorate.


THAT IS WHY FAUX NEWS IS DANGEROUS AND MUST BE HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR THEIR PROPAGANDA.


Ignorant, ill-educated people who are fed fear day after day after day are ripe for being led to carry out any agenda evil persons wish.

The BUSH years provide all the proof we need of the consequences of propaganda on the numbskulls. Tell them anything and they'll wave their red or blue party pom-poms and agree that lies and truth, peace is war and freedom of religion only means nice white Christian religions.

Posted by: lquarton | August 20, 2010 2:06 AM | Report abuse

lquarton - While I certainly agree wholeheartedly with your contention that FAUX NEWS IS DANGEROUS AND MUST BE HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR THEIR PROPAGANDA, isn't it self-evident that the process is well underway?

The biggest, baddest mainstream media outlets are pulling down audiences that are very thin gruel compared to the heydays of yesteryear. And none of the replacements have (even in their wildest dreams, and despite the hysterical fears of partisan hacks on both sides of any given political divide) any hopes of building the kind of institutional loyalty that was theoretically attainable in an age of restricted choices.

You've already won. Enjoy the moment.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 2:34 AM | Report abuse

Didn't somebody once say that you'll never make a living telling jokes if they require intelligence from the American people?

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 2:48 AM | Report abuse

Or maybe I'm thinking of the line about bicycle spokes in the underwear of the Canadian people? Or something about how you shouldn't play poker during Lent with the people Down Under?

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 2:54 AM | Report abuse

That may be a slight misquotation, Bob-S. I think it goes something like, "You'll go broke making sophisticated jokes in America."

Wait, that doesn't sound exactly right....

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 2:55 AM | Report abuse

The greatest proverb ever.

"Don't propose building a community centre in Manhattan during Ramadan."

Words to live by.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 2:58 AM | Report abuse

Close enough! G'night (with great fondness) to one and all.

Posted by: Bob-S | August 20, 2010 3:00 AM | Report abuse

American humor usually goes like this:
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Sarcasm is always about putdowns, its easy....
Wit requires intelligence....

Notice that the American high school massacres are usually based on paybacks for putdowns.....sadly
If intelligence requires wit, then the intelligent would have compassion, real compassion...maybe no massacre....hmmm

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 3:12 AM | Report abuse

I bags sock-puppetry.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 3:17 AM | Report abuse

Obama is a MUSLIM. He told the Egyptian Prime Minister that he was MUSLIM. The story ran on Drudge Report, Newsmax, FoxNews and other sites. The White House lies and this proves it.

Posted by: magnoliabel | August 20, 2010 4:32 AM | Report abuse

With 615 posts so far, in one day, I think there is only one conclusion: ladies and gentlemen, we have a Rovestorm on our hands.

I suggest you make peace with your heathen idols and hug your loved ones. Sadly, since I am on the top of a mountain in Hawaii in a place of science, I am restricted to mere rationality and logical thought for my sense of safety and sanity. I can only hope that it will be enough.

Posted by: ScienceTim | August 20, 2010 4:47 AM | Report abuse

Major brands always give out their popular brand samples (in a way it is similar to coupons) I alway use qualityhealth to get mine http://bit.ly/bf1xD8 enjoy your free samples

Posted by: dannyblake20 | August 20, 2010 5:09 AM | Report abuse

Major brands always give out their popular brand samples (in a way it is similar to coupons) I alway use qualityhealth to get mine http://bit.ly/bf1xD8 enjoy your free samples

Posted by: dannyblake20 | August 20, 2010 5:09 AM | Report abuse

I cannot believe the WP changed the title of this blog entry from "Idiots" to "Numbskulls." "Numbskulls" raise the image of harmless buffoons. Ignorance is never harmless. Joel was right before - these people are idiots.

Posted by: CFAinNL | August 20, 2010 6:03 AM | Report abuse

A palate cleanser from Beth Hart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrZw8RToN2Y

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 7:03 AM | Report abuse

Numbskulls love to belive the Egyptian is right

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 7:04 AM | Report abuse

All this survey proves is that you can fool ~20% of the US people all the time.

Thank Darwin only 17% of them are capable of voting and that they are self limiting, as evolution means they continue to decline.

Posted by: walker1 | August 20, 2010 7:06 AM | Report abuse

*Shining the flashlight in all the corners*

Is it safe to come in? Wow, wotta day. This kit'n'boodle definitely ranks up there with Rovestorm.

Good morning, all, and happy Friday. Happy for some of us, at least. Our poor President, how we abuse him without cause. I'm glad he can handle it.

Onward.

Posted by: slyness | August 20, 2010 7:30 AM | Report abuse

This piece is unintentionally hilarious. Americans are not the stupid idiots the media, academic and political class think they are. Do you believe your eyes or what the knee pad wearing media tell you? I think Americans have figured it out, clinging as they do to their guns and religion. What a joke the WaPo is. How's that little circulation problem coming along?

Posted by: lavistabb | August 20, 2010 7:39 AM | Report abuse

Joel has a new story on the Gulf spill (remember that?) about Transocean accusing BP of hoarding data about the disaster. Whodda thunk?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081904126.html

But he kinda buries the lede:

"The decision to remove the blowout preventer and replace it with a new one is likely to delay until after Labor Day the final bottom-kill of the well using mud and cement from a relief well"

With the well 'dead' all sorts of deadlines get relaxed. Remember when mid-August was thought to be unconscious-ably distant? At least the oil isn't gushing any more, just bobbing along under the ocean.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 7:40 AM | Report abuse

Yep, just bobbing along.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081904127.html

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 7:41 AM | Report abuse

Good pair of articles in the Style section on the 'Ground Zero Mosque'.

Newyawkas (chime in here cholly) hate the outsider rabble-rousers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081906580.html

It contains a list of nearby businesses familiar to those who click TBG's links:

///Red cranes may slowly be rebuilding Ground Zero, but they are surrounded by a vibrant cityscape: doughnut shops and strip clubs and churches and mosques and synagogues and off-track betting parlors and podiatry centers. ///

They quote the bouncer at the now famous gentleman's club that is NOT an inappropriate use of land near the WTC site.

///"It's inappropriate," said Damon Thomas, 37, the doorman at the New York Dolls Gentleman's Club, a block from the proposed Islamic center. As nude women danced around poles, and men at the bar watched Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner talk on MSNBC, Thomas complained that his friends dismissed his opposition to the mosque because he works at a strip club. "Hey," he reasoned, "strippers didn't fly planes into the buildings." ///

The other article is a more thoughtful piece on semantics:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081906655.html

With this aside:

///(The Associated Press and The Washington Post are advising their journalists to avoid the terms "Ground Zero mosque" or "mosque at Ground Zero" because they're inaccurate.) ///

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 7:50 AM | Report abuse

The Ex opens today with a new delicacy, for those crazy enough to try it - deep fried butter.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/on-the-menu-at-torontos-cne-this-year-deep-fried-butter/article1678793/

Morning everyone.

Posted by: dmd3 | August 20, 2010 7:52 AM | Report abuse

Sir Curmudgeon, your tireless and loving effort in answering my query regarding the origins of the bunker are appreciated more than you'll ever know. Had I realized the efforts required to fulfil my curiousity I might have hesitated to ask. I'm afraid that I departed the bunker at 10:15 and missed your posts but what a delight to discover them this morning. I am illuminated, though not as colorfully as that first bunker Christmas must have been!

Many thanks, kind sir.
your talitha

[reprinted from post left in bunker a moment ago]

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 7:55 AM | Report abuse

You guys sure know how to have fun.

Posted by: Boomslang | August 20, 2010 7:56 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, y'all!

I am officially submitting my title suggestion for this kaboodle : The 20%Storm (alternates: MuslimStorm, KadaffiDeStorm, NumbnutStorm) Even so,I know full well that these things tend to name themselves.

Hope you all are well today. Will backtrack and catch up with the morning's news. Am actually looking forward to reading about the oil spill! *bites tongue* Reckon I'll see you in the next kit.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 8:08 AM | Report abuse

Good morning boodle! I see we remained pretty slavishly, if wing nuttedly, on topic last night. How tedious. The weekend is here. (Guess Scotty is issuing tfsmif Grover waves from the bunker.)

Fatuous garden comment-my coneflowers, day lilies and Black Eyed Susans are putting on a spectacular display. Good thing, because the tomatoes are anemic, I got one pepper per bell pepper plant (too shaded by aforementioned flowers)and the pea vines have powdery mildew. Veggies just do better here in a dry year.

Later gators!

Posted by: frostbitten1 | August 20, 2010 8:13 AM | Report abuse

1.Are Americans total numbskulls?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When someone has promised to conduct their leadership transparently and then hides what they are passing in legislation and is scared to stand up on their hind legs for an impromptu news conference without a teleprompter, burbles on about racial harmony and then makes judgements (obviously biased) based on limited information, allows foreign dignitaries who can't even run their own countries to denigrate ours, has seemingly bowed to muslims, made comments in his books regarding his ultimate allegiences, exposed himself for 20 years to a vitriolic man posing as a man of GOD, showed a marked preference for certain people over others and certain special interest groups over others after promising not to, showed a marked preference for criminals over American citizens and on and on.
I think the chief numbskull thinks WE are numbskulls but we aren't buying what he's selling so, no, thankfully we still have some independent thinkers out here so the total numbskulls would be those in lock step with dear leader.

2. The Achenblog is going to evolve over time. Although monstrously self-indulgent at the moment, I am thinking that in a few months the blog will be only hideous.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I haven't see evolution yet but I do see hideous.

3.In America you can worship wherever you want.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That's not true "numbskull." The government has made it clear that you can't worship in various places, including school.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Posted by: tjmlrc | August 20, 2010 8:20 AM | Report abuse

Points:

1. I dont think Obama is either a Muslim or a Christian. It would get in the way of him worshipping himself and writing his next two, three self-reverential autobiographies about himself.

2. While campaigning, he was critical of Christians "intolerance" and blanket-labeled them as "bitter people clinging to their guns and religion". While consistently prasing adherents of Islam as good and wise and not to be condemned for a few fanatics and for being angry about "many bad things the West and America have done to upset noble Muslims in peaceful countries all over the Globe".

3. Since becoming President, he has not shown any signs of Christianity in his daily life, and Christianity is only mentioned as a frequent speech toss away line in how as a One-Worlder, he loves Muslims, Jews, Budddhists, atheists, Wiccans, Christians, Hindis all equally as people and their faiths equally. He went on an apology tour in the Muslim world, criticizing America and events in Western Civ. He wants NASA to push Muslim self-esteem in future space programs.

4. Obama has been described as an alien President by many now. Meaning he shares little of the values and culture of non-elite, mainstream Americans. And he sides against them with The Other. When a cop has an incident with a Harvard elite, the cop must be stupid and the Harvard Professor correct. When people of States want the Border controlled, he stands at a press conference with Presidente Calderone of Mexico and the two tag-team the US public as biased. For terrorist's criminal rights more than backing US citizen's rights not to be attacked by terrorists.

5. Images of Obama since being elected? Black tuxedo and swank receptions and White House Parties for him. Golf courses and royal treatment of the Obama family on foreign visits. None of the Obama family going to church. Obama's frequent gatherings of Muslim religious leaders and giving talks to Muslims. Celebrating Ramadan with them but absent from view on Christmas and Yom Kippur.

He may not be a Muslim, he may be an American, technically. But he appears to sympathize more with Muslims and their matters than Christian or Jewish issues. He feels the UN General Assembly and their sentiments is more relevant to him than the conference of governors of 50 United States plus governors of Puerto Rico and Guam are saying.

Posted by: ChrisFord1 | August 20, 2010 8:23 AM | Report abuse

Frosti, I can fax you plenty of tomatoes. And I feel your pain as last year the rain ruined ours.

Hope we are back to normal today. It scares and saddens me to see the levels of hatred and stupidity out there.

I am running on fumes today as five hours standing plus another walking yesterday have left me legs feeling like lead. Have to do it again today, wish me luck.

Posted by: badsneakers | August 20, 2010 8:29 AM | Report abuse

This boodle experience has been exhausting and confirms what I originally posted. People don't think logically. They throw out alleged facts and assert a connection between them that they don't prove. They ignore other narratives and confuse subjective with objective.

This problem is way bigger than any given issue. I really, really wish our educational system would give more attention to the branch of mathematics known as logic.

Has anyone here taken a logic course? Has anyone studied things like the false dilemma or relativist fallacies?

I mean, we teach kids algebra and geometry, which really isn't useful to most people on a daily basis, but we ignore logic which actually would be. And it isn't that hard. There's no factoring or anything.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 20, 2010 8:29 AM | Report abuse


Wow Chris.
Very nicely put.
Factual and NOT like mine and Joel's
petulant, whiny, belittling and name calling rants.
Always good to have a mature person in the room.

Posted by: tjmlrc | August 20, 2010 8:34 AM | Report abuse

I thought logic was part of philosophy, RD. Maybe they overlap. Or maybe logic in philosophy is the language twin of logic in mathematics.

Posted by: slyness | August 20, 2010 8:39 AM | Report abuse


More people believe in ghosts, UFO's, astrology and other nonsense. This is just another. No big deal except that it might effect elections when the other fantasies won't. I suspect that most of the 20% that believe Obama is a Muslim would find another reason to vote for an opponent if this fantasy was erased.

Posted by: edbyronadams | August 20, 2010 8:39 AM | Report abuse

This problem is way bigger than any given issue. I really, really wish our educational system would give more attention to the branch of mathematics known as logic.
###########################################
Yeah. Logic. Good idea.

Please show me the logic in the mass murder of innocents............

Posted by: tjmlrc | August 20, 2010 8:47 AM | Report abuse

The storm has not calmed down yet and there is one issue that confuses me: The Koran says that a child born to a Muslim father is a Muslim. Obama's father was a Muslim, therefore Obama is a Muslim. That seems to be a consistent argument when used by a Muslim. Are those people who use it all Muslims?

Posted by: gmbka | August 20, 2010 8:51 AM | Report abuse

ChrisFord - Oh jeepers.

First of all, you are employing a lot of "arguments from spite." They are not proof, they are simply emotional alibis that enable people to believe whatever negative things they want.

Next you are throwing in strawman arguments, such as asserting that Obama has been described as alien if this is proof.

Next you have the inductive fallacies of selective perception, which is when you highlight things that support your position while ignoring those that do not.

Finally, you confuse objective with subjective. For example, you assert a set of images from Obama's presidency that you claim are dominant as if this is an objective fact, while this conclusion is entirely subjective. Or when you say "he appears" you are using objective language when you really means that this appears to me.

What you have demonstrated is that you, personally, don't like the guy, but you haven't proven anything else.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 20, 2010 8:51 AM | Report abuse

Barack Obama is Jewish. He wore a yarmulke and put a prayer on the Western Wall.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0708/Obamas_note.html

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 8:51 AM | Report abuse

tjmlrc - logic isn't a value system. It is a mathematical relationship between premises, inferences, and conclusions. It is part of mathematics. Your statement is like saying "where's the algebra in mass murder."

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 20, 2010 8:54 AM | Report abuse

Slyness - both philosophy and symbolic logic are different ways of expressing the same underlying mathematical principles. For example, someone who studies philosophy might be aware of a syllogism, while someone versed in symbolic logic would talk about the transitive law. But they are the same thing.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 20, 2010 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Slyness, like you I thought logic was philosophical. So in university I thought taking a logic course would be a great addition to my history/law degree - you need logic for law correct?

I will never forget my first day in that class, walked in and saw the computer students grouped together, business/math students grouped together, then the philosophy students and then well there was me the arts major - talk about your fish out of water. I passed the course, it was the hardest and lowest mark I ever received but I was proud as I was way over my head, much more like math/programming than what I anticipated.

I like to think I have retained just enough to impart logic into a few things. I would also like to give a shout out to a high school history teacher to taught use Hegel? Sometime things are not what they seem when you group random thoughts - perhaps I should send him over to Fox News.

Anyone else laugh with Jon Stewart last night - re connecting the dots on Fox News.

Posted by: dmd3 | August 20, 2010 9:00 AM | Report abuse

"Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?"

Alas, yes.

Posted by: Gatsby10 | August 20, 2010 9:07 AM | Report abuse

Oh RD, how right you are. I was thinking along those lines when I posted but I didn't know how to express my thoughts on the matter.

Posted by: badsneakers | August 20, 2010 9:10 AM | Report abuse

I think of this Boodle as less of a storm and more of a NumbSkull quagmire, which I called NumbSkuagmire. Ok, not as good as 'Rovestorm' or 'yellojacked,' for sure.

The name-calling and personal accusations are fun for sure. Calling others morons and liars on the Internet and at each other in Blog comments always reminds me of the leaders of troops of primates throwing up leaves and brandishing sticks at each other over a watering hole (and hey, I'm as driven to drink as the next guy). 'Us vs. them' never gets old, does it? Good thing we have handheld wireless devices w/spell check and nuclear weapons.

tjmlrc, you may know that the Ablog's and the Boodle been around for 5+ years (some of us for the whole time) -- I don't know how long that is in Internet time, maybe 30 years? If you're looking for evolution, well, thanks for your most recent .0005% contribution to it. Every little bit helps, including my .0005% right here.

Y'know, maybe I should have stopped at that fourth coffee w/ espresso this morning.

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 20, 2010 9:15 AM | Report abuse

I think RD just proved my point about why I was a fish out of water in the philosophy of logic course :-).

Well done sir.

Posted by: dmd3 | August 20, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

Chris,

Ignore Padouka. He hasn't taken his meds today.
I'm still waiting for him to tell me the logic behind the mass murder of innocents.
You see there is none and yet he believes that in spite of that everyone else should practice logic.
He's not very logical is he?

Posted by: tjmlrc | August 20, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

God loves us so much more than we can imagine through Him that died for all, Jesus Christ.

Good morning, friends. Boy, this s a tough boodle. Somebody used all Caps! RD, as always the calm voice of logic. Way to go, RD! I didn't have logic in school, and simply hated philosphy(?).

Kbert, so glad to hear from you! Hope all is well with you and family.

And hello, Lindaloo, hope all is well with you and husband.

Of course, I try very hard not to hate people, and that helps a lot. Love, you got have love, folks, it's the only thing that works because it comes from God. Not easy though, not easy one bit.

Have a great day, folks. We're getting some rain, but the heat is still here too.
Slyness, morning to you and yours. And much love to all.

Posted by: cmyth4u | August 20, 2010 9:16 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, y'all.

I made extra muffins this morning. Plus the usual coffee and OJ.

Totally off topic, I just finished folding $1,500 in Ewe-Ess currency. A local financial advisory firm commissioned the work to give away as gifts at their annual customer appreciation gathering next month.

It's been fun watching the reactions of friends who've stopped by during this process. Some think it's cute. Others are a bit uncomfortable with $50 elephants and the like.

dmd, Jon was hilarious.

Posted by: MsJS | August 20, 2010 9:17 AM | Report abuse

Yello! I absolutely loved Lamb and absolutely love Christopher Moore. He is a guilty pleasure. I finished his latest "You Suck." a few weeks ago. His humor is just as twisted as mine.

I'd like to summarize the whole Kaddafi thing. Kaddafi, you say the people that say Obama is an apostate Muslim are irrational crazies that can't be reasoned with. I agree wholeheartedly.

Common ground, baby.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 9:17 AM | Report abuse

A couple of factors play here. First, yes, a "surprising"(?) number of Americans are ill informed, i.e. ignorant and do not have (or perhaps do not even want) a diverse source of information. They may watch TV, but get their information from propaganda outlets not objective news sources. Plus they are not really interested in learning anyway, preferring an "unexamined life" so to speak. Then you have the propagandists and hate mongers stiring this pot. Finally, small minded people like the big lie - as in the military has been hiding alien bodies for the past 50 years. These are the people who love the scandal rags we see in the grocery store checkout line. The bigger the lie the more appealing it is to them. And it makes them believe they are smarter then the rest of us because they have not been fooled by "evidence" and are one of only 20% who "know" the truth. These are the birthers, the muslimers, the UFOers, the holicast is a hoaxers. They only win when the rest of us take them for granted or don't even oppose them. A solid voting block of 20% of these people can win against an apathetic 80% who may not vote. The upcoming elections are a test of whether the knowledgeable will oppose the ignorant by actually going to the polls.

Posted by: bobwhite1 | August 20, 2010 9:27 AM | Report abuse

Oooh, I'd love to see pictures, MsJS!

Thank you, RD, that validates my education fer sure. I remember the moment I had the flash of understanding how all human knowledge is related. I was a junior in college...after that, the point was to fit new information into its place in the whole system.

Good morning, Cassandra! Last time I looked at the weather map before I went to bed, it looked like you were going to get a big storm. Hope all is well after it!

Posted by: slyness | August 20, 2010 9:27 AM | Report abuse

baldinho, you'll find a lot of Chris Moore fans here. I read "Practical Demonkeeping" a long time ago, and have been a fan and regular reader ever since. If any of his works might be described as a materpiece, "Lamb" might be it. Haven't read "You Suck" yet, but it's on my list.

Right after I finish Stephenson's "Anathem," Larson's "The Devil in the White City" and Max's "I Hope they Serve Beer in He11."

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 20, 2010 9:35 AM | Report abuse

tjmlrc - listen carefully. Logic relates premises to conclusions.

For example, in Nazi Germany the premise was that only Aryan lives are precious then the rules if logic led to the Final Solution.

But, if the premise is that life of any kind is always precious than those same rules of logic lead to being a vegetarian pacifist.

Logic applies to both. What is different are the premises. People can argue about premises, and such arguments frequently involve notions of aesthetics and morality that are not, generally, "rational" in a logical sense.

But once those premises have been established, logic is the mathematical mechanism that leads to defensible conclusions. Violations of logic lead to fallacies, even if the premises are accepted.


Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 20, 2010 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Wow, the bunker is still open and doing business this morning including one post on kit regarding Pepco! First time I've ever seen two boodles in action at once.

Finally caught up with backboodling. Some mighty fine sparring and great links in amongst the craziness so I'm glad I made the effort.

Thanks to dmd for reminding me that I wanted to watch the morning rerun of The Daily Show. Off to do that and begin a busy and now belated workday. See y'all.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 9:39 AM | Report abuse

Proof that you can fool 20% of Americans all the time.

They do make a great source of income for their predators, the snake oil salesmen, of talk radio and the GOP, but with a declining prey pool the predators have started eating them selves, hense the mass of GOP senators, and congressmen who are being declared persona-non-grata, heck they even declared Ann Coulter a gay loving liberal, and banned her from their conferences.

Incedentaly there is a great source of income in putting out wilder and wilder Tea Party accusations and demanding cash to support your cause, any one can do it: Sell pins, bumper stickers and books that embarass a kindergarten as to use of english and logic.

If you are unemployed just start a web site then self publish via something like lulu.com then start spamming the rightwing blogs. You can even use the Faux news technique of saying it is enetertainment news to prevent being sued. Want to say Dick Cheney is in favour gay love and a liberal on gay marriage and the GOP Bush years were an era of communist administration you can because it is entertainment news! Oh wait those two are true so they dont need the entertainment news, but you get the idea.

Thank Darwin they are declining. One of the nicer aspects of evolution is that idiots are self limiting and create their extinction events.

A party based on idiots and those who live off idiots is fudamentaly flawed and doomed.

Posted by: walker1 | August 20, 2010 9:42 AM | Report abuse

"What this shows is that disinformation remains powerful and infectious, and that large elements of the country distrust the official story about anything. People assume, as the starting point on any issue, that they're being lied to."

Rubbish. When the "Coalition" govts peddled their trash about Iraqi WMD, 75% of Americans believed their govt's lies, compared to 40% of Brits, 30% of Italians, and 20% of Spaniards.

The problem with Americans is not that they distrust the official version. They aren't sceptics, they're unusually gullible.

The problem with Americans is that they swallow hook, line and sinker the version of reality put out by America's conservative thought leaders. And that is invariably a pack of lies.

Posted by: JenDray | August 20, 2010 9:43 AM | Report abuse

Look. Who's kidding who here? That 18% are the very sort of people who listen to Rush Limbaugh and think they are getting hard news, who listen to Glenn Beck and think he really is some sort of philosophical genius, who hang on Sarah Palin's dreary duplicities and imagine she is "Presidential", will accept the most fantastically ludicrous conspiracy propositions with glassy eyed applause, and are likely the very same people who read LEFT BEHIND novels and actually believe the childish nonsense that they will be whisked off the earth magically in a process called The Rapture just before the final tribulations prophesied in Revelations.

And why not? They have been legitimized, held up as a balanced political view, promoted as an important cultural phenomenon, pronounced an influential political movement, widely touted by the 24 hour news talk shows and given every indication by our mainstream media that they are a mainstream force.

In America truth is unimportant. It is malleable. It must be made to conform to opinion polls. In America, pseudo-science, pseudo-knowledge, made up facts, outright lies, distortions, deceit rules. Look around folks. China just leapt into the #2 spot in all of the metrics that measure an advancing, growing, enlightened society. In education, America just moved down again to # 12.

Is there any doubt why we are declining and the rest of the world is passing us by? Not to me there isn't. America is becoming a pathetic pisant, a worthless, whiny, miserable nation of trogs living off the past reputations of electorates far wiser and far more enlightened than this is even capable of.

My God! What has happened to us. In Connecticut, a woman is running for the Seante who is steeped in the corruption and malaise of the WWF and who's husband once ordered a woman to publicly kneel down and bark like a dog! On the floor of the House of Representatives, a Congressman from Texas--a Congressman for God's sake!--peddles a wild, wacky conspiracy theory about terror babies being deliberately born and raised by Mexican mothers to grow up and terrorize Americans--a charge he cavalierly lobs out of the blue with no evidence to support it! And why not? He knows the mainstream media will give it a more serious hearing than a Congressman proposing more substantive ideas on fixing the problem of immigration.

We are doomed folks. Our America is gone forever. We will never get back to the enlightened society we once were. We have already lost it.

Posted by: jaxas70 | August 20, 2010 9:46 AM | Report abuse

I just finished listening to 'Fluke'. Really weird in the middle but worth working through. My dad just sent me '...Beer In Hell.' I normally don't take book suggestions from him, but this one I'm going to get to.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 9:56 AM | Report abuse

One gaping obvious thing I see here is an unwillingness of the 20% to recognize, much less criticize, hypocrites who claim to be Christian and are wolves in sheep's clothing, if they are on the so-called Right.

Evil men have always tried to hide behind religion. All that means is that they are evil. All religions have them. They get away with it because of the 20%.

I declare all who proclaim Obama to be Muslim as members of my faith, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. By proclamation, I can do this, since it's my religion. Now they are all FSM devotees. QED

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 9:57 AM | Report abuse

That World Wildlife Federation is steeped in malaise and corruption. What they make those poor panda bears do in the ring is inhuman.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 9:59 AM | Report abuse

bc, "You Suck" is a companion piece to "It's a Dirty Job". It is placed in SF at the same time and has some same characters.

Placing Moore's characters in SF is too easy and too great.

Abby Normal of You Suck is one of my all-time faves.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

yello--

I wasn't able to see the link you posted last night in your comment about Jews in the 15th Century.

Was it the Inquisition number from History of the World, Part I? That's what popped into my head as I read your post.

Have a good and peaceful day all!

Posted by: Moose13 | August 20, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

Jumper,
Mormons were doing that with posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims until somebody complained. People don't look kindly on having their immortal souls hijacked.

I do like that the premise of many of these Muslimers hinge on the supremacy of Islamic law over the tradition of religious freedom in the United States. Whose side are they on?

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 10:05 AM | Report abuse

I haven't read "you Suck", etc. yet. I read "Fluke,", but I got lost in the strangeness. I may have to try again.

The 2 most recent C. Moore books I have read are "The Stupidest Angel" and "Island of the Sequined Love Nun."

My favorite character is Roberto, the talking fruit bat. :o)

Posted by: Moose13 | August 20, 2010 10:07 AM | Report abuse

Make a joke of it if you want yellojkt but in the end you will pay for all of this widespread ignorance. That 20% of ignoramuses are the very type who show up at elections and the reason why we end up getting dumbos elected to office like that crazy basterd out in Texas I referred to.

The World Wrestling Federation (WWF) i referred to is a part of this coarsening of America. Rome did not fall simply because of the decadence of its leaders. Even in the midst of its decline their were good and noble members of their Senate who tried to warn their people and their leaders that holding bread and circuses was not going to be enough to stop the decline in the overall character of their people.

Today's equivalent of the Roman bread and circuses is the rise of this alternate media of noise, distraction and disinformation. Far too many Americans have become slothful, lazy and uninformed and cling to asinine opinions not grounded in any knowledge of history, culture or economics. We have suddenly become a people devoid of higher character. We disrespect the sciences. We buy into all manner of historical revisionism to suit our own flabby opinions and prejudices. And we elevate to hero status people of the lowest character, devoid of redeeming qualities, demonstrably anti-social and filled with petty, partisan, irrational hatreds.

Posted by: jaxas70 | August 20, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse

'morning all. No bears in the news but this video demonstrates rather well why orcas are called killer whales. Note the clever encircling manoeuvre. Not for the squeamish or the easily sea-sick.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/08/18/nl-trinity-orcas-818.html

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 20, 2010 10:12 AM | Report abuse


People believe what they want to believe and that swings both ways on the political spectrum. How many hereabouts pay any attention to the reports that the gulf has mostly recovered from the recent well blow out? One certainly sees many fantasies about government collusion with BP in issuing the reports of its recovery.

Posted by: edbyronadams | August 20, 2010 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Moose,
Yes. Yes it was. I was going to link to the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition sketch, but I figured everybody would be expecting that. I'm delighted and a little frightened that this was not the case.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 10:16 AM | Report abuse

edbyronadams,
You're not suggesting our government would just declare victory and go home, are you? I'm shocked, shocked that that might happen. At least by pushing back the final well kill until after Labor Day, all those BP execs get another long weekend at the beach.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 10:23 AM | Report abuse

The Stupidest Angel is on my to-read list. A snippet of that character from a couple others of his has whetted my appetite.

I also like Roberto in "... love nun". My favorite there was the aged cannibal.

Moore understands that most guys are idiots... but loveable idiots. His documentary proof in his books is great.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, and I can see that they are all on this comment page. Oh, Obambi - come down from the clouds and help your "fellow travelers" for they have lost their way and are in the "dimcrat whiney mode".


One in five Americans is down right stupid.

Posted by: teddymzuri

Posted by: emyers12345 | August 20, 2010 10:23 AM | Report abuse

Hi-
This thread, unlike so many others, started a reasonable analysis, an early post by RD that puts the what appears to be the lack of understanding of basic logic in the context of education. This is a valiant attempt to make this "ignorance" remediable.
This is not ignorance, it is unbridled wishful thinking. Some people simply want Obama not to be president. Stymied by the procedure we use to elect presidents, they want to wish him away, manufacturing one silly thing after another simply to sound good. In the present era much has been made of the power of belief in one's desires, why not this one?
These wish fulfillment fantasies are abetted by demagogues who are presently trying to sow so much discord that people don't concentrate on practical matters or logical thinking, but stay focused on trivial diversions, like fears of illegal immigration in Oklahoma and Utah of all places (Sooners and Mormons?), a mosque in NYC, etc. These enablers are desperately trying to keep people sitrred up so they don't notice things like the last combat troops leaving Iraq, GM getting on its feet again, the integrity of the banking system, health care open to more people, etc.
There are different reasons why people don't want Obama as president. They feel he is: so different (a Hawaiian-born mulatto); a Democrat (for some people stuck in 60's); charismatic (brreds fears in those who see others swayed).
Given the reasons for this "ignorance," facts are about as useful as telling a young basketball player that there is a better chance of being hit by lightning than of being in the NBA. Its better to have those who have come to their senses take the lead and explain how they hurt themselves confusing their dreams with reality. That is probably a better way than calling them imbeciles.

Posted by: doctort | August 20, 2010 10:26 AM | Report abuse

Hi-
This thread, unlike so many others, started a reasonable analysis, an early post by RD that puts the what appears to be the lack of understanding of basic logic in the context of education. This is a valiant attempt to make this "ignorance" remediable.
This is not ignorance, it is unbridled wishful thinking. Some people simply want Obama not to be president. Stymied by the procedure we use to elect presidents, they want to wish him away, manufacturing one silly thing after another simply to sound good. In the present era much has been made of the power of belief in one's desires, why not this one?
These wish fulfillment fantasies are abetted by demagogues who are presently trying to sow so much discord that people don't concentrate on practical matters or logical thinking, but stay focused on trivial diversions, like fears of illegal immigration in Oklahoma and Utah of all places (Sooners and Mormons?), a mosque in NYC, etc. These enablers are desperately trying to keep people sitrred up so they don't notice things like the last combat troops leaving Iraq, GM getting on its feet again, the integrity of the banking system, health care open to more people, etc.
There are different reasons why people don't want Obama as president. They feel he is: so different (a Hawaiian-born mulatto); a Democrat (for some people stuck in 60's); charismatic (brreds fears in those who see others swayed).
Given the reasons for this "ignorance," facts are about as useful as telling a young basketball player that there is a better chance of being hit by lightning than of being in the NBA. Its better to have those who have come to their senses take the lead and explain how they hurt themselves confusing their dreams with reality. That is probably a better way than calling them imbeciles.

Posted by: doctort | August 20, 2010 10:26 AM | Report abuse

The questioning of anyone's mental fitness is disingenuous. The intention of this blog is not to motivate a reasoned discussion of differing opinion. Rather, it is to stir the pot of intolerance to generate readership.

People, you have been achenblogged.


Posted by: cj1167 | August 20, 2010 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Even more people think he's an illegal alien: 76% of Republicans, according to one Pew survey. And a quarter of Republicans think he's the anti-Christ. What's really going on here? Why do so many people seeming take pleasure in making such absurd claims? Why do they hate him so much? There's one obvious reason: he's black (or half-black, which is the same thing in America). These people are racists. It's not politically correct to hate someone because he's black, so you just claim he's Adolph Hitler. Then you can safely hate him. We truly are a nation of idiots.

Posted by: DaveHarris | August 20, 2010 10:28 AM | Report abuse

"We protect religious minorities here. This isn't merely the law: It's a core value. This goes back to the Pilgrims, I seem to recall. "
Regrettably, no. The Puritans, for example, did not permit any religious practices but their own within their territory. Almost all religious refugees from England & Europe wanted to establish theocracies; a 'City on a Hill' for the Glory of God (ITNSHO ;-) ). That, and the results of state religion in England & Europe, is why our Deist founding fathers put in the establishment of religion clause. It was frankly a rather radical concept at the time.

Posted by: pcgeorge | August 20, 2010 10:28 AM | Report abuse


Believing what you want to believe demonstrated.

Thank you.

Posted by: edbyronadams | August 20, 2010 10:28 AM | Report abuse

O Bambi! Do you live on in deer heaven where there is no fire and no bad,bad,bad men with firesticks?

O Bambi, does Thumber make woo, woo, woo, and eventually whoopie with Flower.

I do hope so.


May the "O Bambi litany" continue. I love the smell of rainbow jimmies and the sight of sparkles in the morning....

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | August 20, 2010 10:29 AM | Report abuse

WWF: www.wwf.org/
WWE: www.wwe.com/

Only one of these has pandas on the homepage.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 10:31 AM | Report abuse

I wasn't kidding when I compared them to Taliban or Al Qaida leaders. I really think they are the same demographic on two supposedly different sides. I can't see much difference in the rage, lack of education, magical thinking, hypocrisy, etc. Just beneath the surface is a bloodlust simmering, desiring the cutting off of hands for theft, many public executions, etc. Or, if you like, they are American Hutu.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 10:33 AM | Report abuse

I've read all of Moore's books except "Bite Me!" his latest.

I found Fluke the weakest because of the weirdness mentioned. I also was a little underwhelmed by "Fool," partly because I don't know my Bard very well. The ending of "The Island of the Sequined Love Nun" left me a little cold, although others have told me that they found it very satisfying.

My personal favorite is "A Dirty Job" because I felt it combined wit with a real underpinning of human sensitivity.

I thought "Lamb" was brilliant, and, I assert,a worthwhile read for both religious and non-religious folks. (As Moore puts it, if a satirical book can shake your faith you have bigger problems.) Further, it describes Jesus as liking both coffee and bunnies, which is gratifying.

I also really liked the vampire books "Bloodsucking Fiends" and "You Suck." I found them extremely funny and surprisingly poignant, so I have high hopes for "You Bite."

The others I remember enjoying, but they really didn't stand out for me.

The exception being "The Stupidest Angel," which I found crazy good but clearly for the fans. I should be read last because of all the references to his earlier books. And, preferably at the Yuletide. Perhaps after a mug or two of really good eggnog.


Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 20, 2010 10:35 AM | Report abuse

It's worse that that.

20% think he is a Muslim but another 40%+ did not know. So it's not 20% of Americans are stupid. It's more like 60%.

It's the Religious Right (the're neither) and the Tea Baggers who foster this BS.

Posted by: RichardinPasadena | August 20, 2010 10:41 AM | Report abuse

I feel ignorant for not having read any of the books RD mentions in his 10:35. If they are available as e-books I will be bleary eyed, and lighter in the wallet, by Monday. I have faith that it will be worth a weekend of marathon reading-if you can't have bears, coffee and bunnies will do.

Posted by: frostbitten1 | August 20, 2010 10:46 AM | Report abuse

There is indeed a bear story today,

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/08/19/bear-surgery.html

Posted by: dmd3 | August 20, 2010 10:49 AM | Report abuse

yellojkt wrote:
"I was going to link to the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition sketch, but I figured everybody would be expecting that."

Ha! NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Posted by: bourassa1 | August 20, 2010 10:52 AM | Report abuse

I loved the frozen chicken-eating hellhounds in "A dirty job". They reminded me of something familiar. The vampire books are my favourite yet but I haven't read the "love nun", "Stupidest angel" or "Fluke" yet. I need a longer bus ride, obviously.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 20, 2010 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the link dmd!

Posted by: frostbitten1 | August 20, 2010 10:55 AM | Report abuse

Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, observed that if you repeat a lie often enough people believe it. Every time members of the media report this "belief" without stating its idiocy they are complicit in promoting it, AND the agenda of the birthers and other right-wing nuts who intentionally distort the truth for political purposes. Who is willing to step up to the plate in place of folks like the late Walter Cronkite?

Posted by: hesser | August 20, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

Anybody ever seen Amazon Women on the Moon?

Posted by: Moose13 | August 20, 2010 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Um, it's a movie. Heh heh.

Posted by: Moose13 | August 20, 2010 11:02 AM | Report abuse

This is why a jury trial is the worst of all honest forms of jurisprudence possible, at least one or two of those type losers will be on any given jury.

Posted by: 54465446 | August 20, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Moose - Yes, both the naughty version and the expunged for television version.

"Could Jack the Ripper have actually been the Loch Ness Monster?"


Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 20, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Two key perspectives are relevant. One, Muslims have a reputation (appropos or not) for not being truthful (due to Mohammed's Quranic encouragement in the context of war). Therefore, a certain paranoia has developed around both Muslims and those "warm" towards them due to exasperated fear at how to get to the truth. Second, liberal Christianity, which Obama has chosen, is decidedly agnostic about which "path" is the right one, basically claiming they're all good. What really matters to the liberal Christian is not Christ over Allah or Buddha but rather the golden rule over greed and oppression. Therefore, both Obama's choice of Christian church as well as both warmth toward Islam and descent from a Muslim creates a perfect storm of disbelief among true believer Christians; who see Muslims as hell bound Christ-rejecting possible liars and liberal Christians as hell bound heretic, miracle denying do-gooders. Either way, though Obama likes Jesus' teachings, his "brand" of Christianity is prone to not care if Christ really rose from the dead. Rather, what matters is that Christ was willing to sacrifice for truth and justice. So, it is logically consistent to be a liberal Christian and pro-Quran all at the same time. Hence, the question becomes whether or not Obama leans far enough that way, that he might as well just be a Muslim who appreciates Jesus teachings as opposed to a Christian who thinks Islam is just as "right" a religion as Christianity. Liberal Christianity would not be offended either way. Conservative Christianity calls both spiritual wickedness.

Posted by: jonswitzer | August 20, 2010 11:09 AM | Report abuse

By all means, hesser, let's bring more Nazis back into the discussion. That's what's been missing all along: not enough Wisdom from the Third Reich.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

jaxas70, you are right on with your posts! Depressing, but accurate.

America had a nice run, but it's (inevitably) over.

Posted by: spunkydawg1 | August 20, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

I love the Boodle.

Posted by: Moose13 | August 20, 2010 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Good morning. I'll check back to the future shortly, but thought I'd try and peruse this ultimately exhausting and tedious Boodle. Major props to those of you who remained voices of sanity through the long long march. You deserve AchenMedals, all.

Thanks again are due to RD for the nice explanation of logic this morning. If I accomplish one thing as a parent I hope I successfully teach the Boy to think logically. I've been trying since his infancy, by example and analysis. I took philosophy logic, as opposed to math logic, in college. I was surprised to realize, as a music major, that the forms and structure of logic corresponded remarkably to the forms and structure of music. Several of us were in the class. I did a sort of tutorial for the music folks showing them the correlations and we all did very well.

Posted by: Ivansmom | August 20, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

I tried to bring Nazis into the topic yesterboodle even before the numbskull kit was posted. Give credit where credit is due:

--------------------------------------------

You can rise to power on a platform of fear and hate-mongering. Particularly if you have a small minority you can persecute and scapegoat.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yellojkt/4896067350/in/set-72157624608736065/

And some people will believe anything if it is said loudly and frequently enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie

Posted by: yellojkt | August 19, 2010 9:28 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 11:24 AM | Report abuse

This is from yesterday, but I don't recall anyone mentioning the boar story to go with the bear stories:

"Radioactive boars on the rise in Germany"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081900179.html

Posted by: bobsewell | August 20, 2010 11:30 AM | Report abuse

Radio active bores, you say? Ahem.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Radical as in root Christianity is silent on so many topics. But this same rooted Christianity embraces these tenants spoken by Jesus would have been rather surprised, as a living person, to know that people would be known specifically by his Greek moniker: Christ, the anointed one. (Chrism is a related word as as charism)

Aside: Pardon my time in taking to find the Bible cites. We Catholics don't commit verses to memory, :), as a rule.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version)
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Footnotes:
[a] Matthew 22:37 Deut. 6:5
{b] Matthew 22:39 Lev. 19:18

And this one that says nothing about belief as a hedge-bet FOR an easy, charmed, or happy life:

Matthew 28:20 (New International Version)
20) and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
---
This verse references the two commandments above about LOVE.

So, what am I do do? Love. And trust that God is with me, come what may.

That is all.


Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | August 20, 2010 11:37 AM | Report abuse

FYI, many of us are still sheltering in the bunker. Those of you who know what this means are welcome to join us.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 11:38 AM | Report abuse

Blech, posted too soon. Forgive the typos, as I forgive you, as does the FSM subGod of correctness.

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | August 20, 2010 11:39 AM | Report abuse

The American population, on average, as a whole, reads, writes and comprehends at an 8th Grade Level. We are dealing with a bunch of 14 year old’s. Our educational system, for the majority of us, is a joke. Analytical thought is uncommon, as a result we have the Patriot Act (a law that no congressman had read before voting on) a national debt of such magnitude that all China has to do is start dumping dollars and we turn into a third-world-nation overnight. As our financial institutions fail and the dollar plummets, don’t think for one minute that the holders of the “Almighty Dollar” won’t cut their losses and start dumping. Republicans hate Government, they think it is the problem (re regulation) now why would you put people who hate Government in charge of the Government? What do you think will happen? Do you see the cause and effect? Have IQ’s dropped 20 points in the last eight years? And now this along with the "Birthers"! Its like saying 300 Million Whites as opposed to 30 Million Blacks can claim reverse racism. How is that even possible when whites control EVERYTHING? Oh, and they're also responsible for the mess they've made of this country yet "lets blame the black man we hired to clean up this mess". . . . WOW

Posted by: Taylorsucram | August 20, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

Response to leighwilliams from yesterday's request: Yes, permission grant. Just cite "Curmudgeon" or "Curmudgeon from the Achenblog" as the source.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Those boars were probably eating the giant radioactive lobsters.

Nobody's seen Scotty today have they? I worry he may have succumb to The Pepsi Sydrome:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78ppepsi.phtml

Coincidentally starring Richard Benjamin from 'Quark.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 11:45 AM | Report abuse

SCC: Syndrome. Let he who is without syndrome cast the first radioactive stone.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Didn't Scotty say a couple of days ago that he was going to visit the boy?

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 11:53 AM | Report abuse

This article has the twin virtue of being both short and the best one I have seen on the so-called Mosque controversy.

Posted by: Jere11 | August 20, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

I like the person who was hesitant to call 20% of people numbskulls or stupid. That person said perhaps 20% are just jerks.

Muslim or the anti-Christ is just a nicer epithet than others used in history.

When I grew up, there were probably 20% of children in the schoolyard that, when challenged, would holler something akin to "your mother is a wh---" and then laugh.

This is probably a lot of the same.

The kids new that person's mother wasn't a wh---. That was not the point.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 11:56 AM | Report abuse

SCC: they also knew, too.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Response to leighwilliams from yesterday's request: Yes, permission grant. Just cite "Curmudgeon" or "Curmudgeon from the Achenblog" as the source.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Response to leighwilliams from yesterday's request: Yes, permission grant. Just cite "Curmudgeon" or "Curmudgeon from the Achenblog" as the source.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 12:03 PM | Report abuse

God help us. Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy? Answer is yes! When it comes to geography, other culture, religion, politicians, different nationalities, 80% of the American are the dumbest people on the face of the Earth.

Posted by: akhan4 | August 20, 2010 12:05 PM | Report abuse

God help us. Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy? Answer is yes! When it comes to geography, other culture, religion, politicians, different nationalities, 80% of the American are the dumbest people on the face of the Earth.

Posted by: akhan4 | August 20, 2010 12:05 PM | Report abuse

If me and some of my buddies rolled into your town and killed a couple of thousand of your neighbors, friends and family members and then told you we were doing it because our religion demanded it of us. Would it be OK if we built our church next to your memorial?
Just sayin'

Posted by: dschalton | August 20, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

That is beneath you, dschalton. You know perfectly well that Rauf is not a terrorist and has no connection to 9/11 except having denounced it.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Islamic tolerance.

http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/time-magazine-aisha-afghanistan.jpg

Posted by: trippin1 | August 20, 2010 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Sigh.

Every opinion piece like this that gets put in a major newspaper or online publication only does one thing: polarizes things even more. How is name-calling the least bit productive, at all? The more people laugh at the ignorance and belittle the people who hold that opinion, the more polarized we become. It astounds me that so many "educated" people can be so incredibly thick headed when it comes to taking steps to examine the underlying roots of an issue like this. To brush it off as stupidity is lazy and arrogant. To attempt to understand why this could have gained traction at all is apparently too difficult an exercise for such informed, brilliant minds?

I know people are foaming at the mouth to point the finger of ignorance at people who rely on stations like Fox for their news...but isn't the fact here that if there weren't a scintilla of Muslim roots to be exploited - such as, say, familial roots - there would be nothing to exploit? If there weren't something about Obama or the administration that made people feel uneasy, would there be such fertile ground to plant rumors like this in? It's easy to point a finger and say it's race...but maybe that's not enough. Maybe the way the administration operates, the perception of what the administration stands for, how the members conduct themselves, the rhetoric...maybe they are losing more and more of the American public. I thought the fact that Obama spoke about the mosque in NYC at all was a silly move politically, and it only got worse when he backtracked (something he has gotten far too good at, I'm afraid) from his original statement. I felt a simple statement like "We have separation of church and state in this country, and as a political leader I'm not going to debate the merits of the decision to build a mosque or any other religious building" would have been fine. But lately, it seems like it's one misstep after another - and just maybe, this is contributing to the overall feeling that some Americans have about him.

Posted by: chrisjadams | August 20, 2010 12:22 PM | Report abuse

dschalton, if "me and some of my buddies" rolled into town and said "me and some of my friends," then me and some of my editor friends would say you are an illiterate, and would pay no attention to the rest of whatever it is you had to say. And me and some of my teacher friends would mournfully conclude that we have failed to teach you even the simplest of rules of grammar. That's what me would say.

Me would also point out (for the billionth time) that the people who destroyed the Twin Towers are NOT the same people who want to build the cultural center that is NOT located at Ground Zero, but two blocks away. But me would realize me was only wasting me time.

Have you given thought to going back and getting your GRE? Me and my friends think you could stand to ramp up your communication and critical analysis skills a bit.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Have suggestions that the Cordoba Center look at alternative locations included consideration of the 2.6 million square feet under construction by Silverstein Properties on land leased from the Port Authority?

Posted by: -tao- | August 20, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

chrisjadams, it's one thing to disagree with the president and/or his policies.

To use that disagreement as justification for planting and/or believing untrue rumors about him is another.

It's rare in this country for a president to have overwhelming support. There is always some opposition, and there should be. I'm having trouble with the premise that the existence of that opposition somehow justifies the creation or perpetuation of incorrect facts.

Posted by: MsJS | August 20, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

No one here is laughing at ignorance, buddy.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 12:36 PM | Report abuse

Joel:

Unfortunately, the answer to your question is yes. Most Americans are stupid, ignorant, xenophobic, get their news from Fox, think Sarah Palin is the second coming, and are racist. They live in their own little world and think everyone else on the planet is "weird" because they aren't like "us 'Merkans". They don't travel, because they can watch "stuff about foreign places" on TV - when they try to broaden their horizons at all. They don't read much more than the sports section of their local daily newspapers, but do religiously keep up on the latest goings-on with Snooki and the rest of the world of vapid, air-headed celebrities through scholarly publications such as US Weekly. They sanctimoniously go to church regularly because their god is a white, male, right-wing Republican and his way is the only way, truth and light. Ethnic cooking is Taco Bell or Panda Express.

Americans are a sad lot, and the past two years have only served to show just how bad they are and will continue to be (because they are always Right).

Posted by: bkllal6020 | August 20, 2010 12:40 PM | Report abuse

MsJS, who is talking about justification? This is politics! I'm talking about what makes is possible for someone to believe the rhetoric that is being put out there. And I have to believe that it's more than an issue as simple as "people are stupid." Moreover, my point is that this attitude is what helps create further polarization. To me, it's at least worth examining the possibility that there are reasons people choose to believe sometimes outrageous accusations, beyond stupidity or racism, rather than throwing a "dumb@ss" blanket over 20% of our population.

Posted by: chrisjadams | August 20, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

While I'm at it, I don't "foam at the mouth," "arrogant" is a weasel word with a recursive definition, and I don't "worship" Obama as the "messiah."

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 12:46 PM | Report abuse

And I don't "sneer," either.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Considering the high school graduation rate is a little under 70%, yes, some Americans are that stupid.

Posted by: thornwalker1 | August 20, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Um...okay Jumper, thanks for clearing all that up.

Posted by: chrisjadams | August 20, 2010 12:53 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps chrisjadams is right, and it's not stupidity. I suggest it's more akin to moral cowardice.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 12:54 PM | Report abuse

chrisjadams - That point was covered pretty well yesterday morning by chollynickabocka:

---------------------------------

While I agree in principle that one out of five Americans is a moron, it's more complicated than that. It's one third of self-identified Conservatives who believe it. This isn't just "any" random cohort of people; it is a very specific cohort that holds a number of other beliefs, many of them similarly associated one way or another, as part of a general pattern of beliefs.

For instance, in this particular cohort, there are NO Muslims themselves. There are no flaming liberals, or mild liberals, or even modestly pinkish Democrats and/or centrists. There are almost no Democrats of any kind, and only a small percentage of independents. So this cohort isn't just any random sampling or cross-section.

Also, it is well within anyone's right as well as within anyone's purview to dislike Obama, or even hate the guy, if you feel you must. It is certainly all right to disagree with him and to disagree with his political philosophy, policies, administration, etc. Happens all the time.

But hell's bells, during the 60s and 70s, there were millions of people who hated, loathed and despised either Johnson or Nixon or both. There were millions who disliked Reagan intensely, and millions who loathed Carter, or Bush-2, for that matter. But in not one of those cases was there ANYONE, much less an 18-percent cohort, who thought Nixon was a member of the Santeria Cult, or a Martian, or that Reagan was secretly born in Budapest and that his Illinois birth certificate was forged. No one ever thought Carter's piety was a false front and that he secretly worshiped Shinto.

And in none of those cases was there a substantial media presence that includes the equivalents of Limbaugh, Beck, Bachman, Coulter, Maltin, O'Reilly, Hannity, et al., who were all loudly pushing the bizarre notion that Lyndon Johnson was a closet Rastafarian.

The problem with this 18-percent cohort isn't that it is stupid. It is that it has its own TV network and a dozen major pundits and performers feeding its psychosis. This particular cohort didn't arise out of a vacuum, and it doesn't represent some spontaneous or innate body of thought that caught on door-to-door. This particular cohort has been "built," nurtured, and fed.

Posted by: chollynickabocka | August 19, 2010 10:32 AM

Posted by: bobsewell | August 20, 2010 12:55 PM | Report abuse

Hey virtually the entire Washington press corps and most of the brilliant minds at the Washington Post seem to believe the Obama concept of "jobs saved." Yet anyone who got beyond 9th grade Algebra or took a course in fundamental logic should be able to recognize that the "jobs saved" statistic is a totally bogus one.
Before the liberal elite once again compliment themselves on their brilliance and sneer down at us common folk, maybe they ought to look in the mirror or at least take some basic math and then write a few columns about how gullible and stupid they were to believe in the "jobs saved" nonsense.
Nah, never mind, keep calling us stupid that is the sure fire way to ensure your candidates in Cambridge and Berkeley win with 90 percent of the vote!

Posted by: jymerk | August 20, 2010 12:57 PM | Report abuse

chrisjadams, there are all sorts of reasons why people believe what they want to believe. You want to take a crack at it, be my guest.

What sort of expertise do you possess in these matters?

Posted by: MsJS | August 20, 2010 12:58 PM | Report abuse

tao,
Brilliant idea. I hear that place is having trouble getting tenants. Perhaps they can put a Saudi consulate there as well.

I'm stealing this from Wonkette, but from now on, I'm referring to the Cordoba House as the Burlington Coat Factory Mosque since that is where it's actually going to get built, not Ground Zero.

And I do have a beef with the phrase 'Ground Zero' to describe the World Trade Center site. It has ruined a perfectly good Weird Al song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It-KcebEfW0

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 1:00 PM | Report abuse

So glad you reposted that, bobsewell.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 1:07 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the repost bobsewell.

I think to me, this whole issue goes deeper, and is rarely delved into deeply. If we can all - or at least, most of us - agree that a lot of prejudice is driven somewhere by fear...what is the deep-seeded source of fear that a good number of Americans have which allows the seeds of misinformation to be planted, grown, and followed? Fear of change? Fear that white, Christian Americans will become a minority at some point? Fear of being a minority, being subjected to treatment as a minority?
I guess my ultimate point would be this: I think we need to find the source of fear which drives some more radical opinions and beliefs, because I do believe that fear is the motivating factor - and deal with it. I think this country has an opportunity to become a true melting pot and embrace a fluid, encompassing societal structure. But fear has to be overcome, first and foremost. And that's a tough nut to crack, for sure.
But if the more "educated" people out there, who can think "logically" and "critically" got together and came up with simple ways of combating this fear...don't you think that would be more effective than name-calling? I understand it's tricky as hell, to educate and calm peole without talking "down" to them, especially given the currently charged political climate. But to me...it's the only way we're ever going to get past where we are now.

Posted by: chrisjadams | August 20, 2010 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Well, most folks who are not questioning his religious beliefs are making an assumption based upon what they want to believe. You normally associate a persons faith to an individual based upon their actions, words, and deeds. Let's see. He doesn't attend church on Sunday. He and his administration didn't want to call the Ft. Hood shooter an Islamic terrorist. He asked NASA to take muslims under their wing and help them. He didn't speak in person to the Boy Scouts 100 year anniversary (largely a Christian organization). He said, "bitter clingers - cling to their religion.." What religion? Christian. Attended a Black Liberation Theology church - and for you whites who have never been inside one, you should shut up. You have no clue as to how similar what is said in a BLT church is to what Muslims say (Honorable Louis Farrakan). So, there is every reason to question him. You can fool most of the people some of the time, but you can't fool 20% of the people any of the time.

Posted by: gabazland | August 20, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

About possible worlds averted, we simply cannot know in any rigorous way the numbers of goods obtained or bads averted.

("jobs saved" statistic is a totally bogus one) wrote jymerk

So, in terms of knowledge, we don't say bogus. We say

unknowable
hidden
(occult -- yes, a technical term for difficult, hidden, or unknowable information)
incalcuable
un or non confirmable

This problem of "possible worlds" data sets is ancient and new. For example,

how many Spartans would would have lived in Athens had the tussle between these two city-states have turned out differently (WE CANNOT KNOW)

the population composition of Eastern Europe and Central Europe-sliding into Russia if Genghis Khan had not sown so much of his mighty seeds (WCNK).

the number of people who would have suffered under a successful Third Reich if WWII had turned out Axis-happy instead of Allied-relieved (WCNK)

the terrorist plots/events/associated deaths by security measures (and luck) in the Bush and Obama tenures(WCNK)

Say this fast and you have WiCaNaNooooooooooo

As a note of levity about this whole thing about WHO.IS.OBAMA? I offer this darling idea. CeePeeboy thought he was named

Barracks O'Bama....some Irish-decent guy with a dad who served happily in the US military.

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | August 20, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

I'm hooting and showing my teeth at y'all, OK? Grrrr.

I noted some parallels to 1930's Germany in the Boodle yesterday, too. FWIW, I wonder if those supporting this new Party now may notice any resemblance to the new Party back then? Maybe some do. If I even hear about a fire alarm going off in the Capital during the Beck/Palinfest next week, I'm going to get very upset.

But I'm sure the Capital has a better fire supression system than the Reichstag did.

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 20, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Wasn't it H.L. Mencken who said, "Never underestimate the stupidity of the average American."?

I continue to be appalled by those, who of course claim to be for the most part Christians, who oppose building a mosque in the Wall Street area of NYC. I wonder who will be the next victim of their mindless hatred?

The fact that Republicans are pandering to these idiots is going to backfire (as will last week's Republican hatred of immigrants). Many of these people the Republicans love to hate are American citizens. They have been known to vote!

Posted by: yenta1 | August 20, 2010 1:13 PM | Report abuse

I think a vast number of Americans are stupid. Using the example above: "Something as simple as if A equals B, and B equals C" then what conclusion can be made out of this If you ask this question to Americans I bet a big number, even the majority, will not know the answer.

Also, I'm wondering what the results would be if you ask people a simple question: Do you believe that Obama could be an alien?

Posted by: thor2 | August 20, 2010 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Sorry MsJS, I don't follow...do I need to be an expert to post an opinion here? In any case, I guess I did take a "crack" at it above. But I don't have a certified background in psychology, so I'm guessing I'm disqualified.

Posted by: chrisjadams | August 20, 2010 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Funny how Imams can insist that Sharia Law makes his O-liness a Muslim by birthright, He Himself can refer to being raised in a "Muslim household" and even (via slip-O-the-tongue, I'll grant you) admit to his own "Muslim faith", yet when people subsequently infer from all this that, yeah, the guy might be a Muslim, His defenders reply with "Pffft! Where DO you get an idea like THAT?!"

I doubt that Tim Russert would have held His hand through last weekends stumbling in the embarrassing manner that George Stephanopolous did: http://bit.ly/dnUqSV ...but until young Luke Russert gets polished enough to pick up his father's baton and run with it, we'll never know how ANY prominent Democrat holds up under a REAL interview...


-jjg

Posted by: jgravelle | August 20, 2010 1:19 PM | Report abuse

Stupidity is not unique to Americans, it's just that they do it with such vigor.

Posted by: 44fx2901 | August 20, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

CJadams is on to something important. Very serious problem within our collective hearts. Fear is the irritant but instead of pearl we get this. Not sure at all how to take care of this. Love is part of this. Including love for those we disagree with, dislike, distrust, and fear.

Wow. A rather Jesus-cal response.

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | August 20, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

here is an interesting thought on this from the Atlantic:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/editor-at-large/view/article/Blame-the-Pollsters-46

However, I am depressed rather than impressed about how many people say they "don't know" what President Obama's religion is. Weirdly, that number is rising. It was 36 percent of the population in a Pew poll in March, and has risen to 43 percent in August. If you believe this poll, in other words, at least seven percent of the American population used to know what Obama's religion is, but have forgotten.

In all, 56 percent of the population think they know what Obama's religion is. Thirty -four percent really do know, or guessed correctly. Twenty percent--how can I put this delicately?--have their heads up their asses. (This includes 18 percent who know he's a Muslim and two percent who know that he is something else. Jewish, perhaps.) The 34 percent who know that Obama is a Christian is down from 47 who knew this in March. Meanwhile the percentage who know that he is a Muslim has jumped from 12 percent to 18 percent. I suppose there is some comfort in the fact that people are learning that Obama is a Muslim at only half the rate at which they are forgetting that he is a Christian.

In 2004, 26 percent of those polled said that President George W. Bush relied "a great deal" on his religious beliefs in making policy, 38 percent said "a fair amount," and 53 percent thought that this was "the right amount." By contrast 43 percent in 2010 think that President Obama relies "not very much" on his religious beliefs, but 48 percent think this is "the right amount." Apparently, people wanted George Bush to rely on religion, but want Barack Obama not to. Or something.

How is it possible that so many people could be so mistaken about the president's religion? Some say that all questions about the president are basically one question: How do you like what he is doing? If he keeps getting more unpopular in this predominantly Christian nation, his "Christian" rating will go down and his "Muslim" rating will go up. If he gets more popular, more people will remember that he's a Christian.

But what if you take the poll seriously and assume that the people questioned took it seriously, what's the explanation? Is it the failure of civic education in our public schools? Is it right-wing nutballs on the radio?

I blame pollsters themselves. They have created a world where everything is an opinion, nothing is a fact, everybody is entitled to an opinion, and every opinion is equally valid. The Pew press release about this latest poll is scrupulously neutral. It talks about "the view that Obama is a Muslim," as if it is just like any other view about the president's religion. Not a word in it hints that there might be a right answer and a wrong one.

Pew may have felt that telling people in its press release that Obama is a Christian is just too ridiculous and unnecessary. But, according to the latest Pew poll, it isn't.

Posted by: thor2 | August 20, 2010 1:27 PM | Report abuse

This is really not about stupidity per se, but cultural conditioning. And the shortest explanation I can give is that despite our pretension to be an "advance society", we have failed, from top to bottom, to understand that our sophisticated system demands an intellectual cultivation from all of its members, not just the intellectual elite, or those fortunate enough to be "educated". This means that civics education, in the highest sense of those words, must be provided and certified as much as a driver's license, maybe even more. Unfortunately, our eco-political phillosophy tends to lend itself more toward "living to eat", rather than "eating to live". And thus, the consequence of such a condition breeds individual myopia, which overlooks the cultural actualities that are independent of a life long pursuit of mere material wants and needs. Those who live by this standard simply rely on (others) usually through the convenience of mass media to inform them, without the benefit of their own research, self study, or a system of logic that allows them to come to rational conclusions, without the prism of bias.

In other words, "those who know will tend to control those who don't"!

Posted by: D-0f-G | August 20, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

What Mencken said that's most relevant at the moment is:

"A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant and the crazy crazier. "

Posted by: bobsewell | August 20, 2010 1:32 PM | Report abuse

"How is it possible that so many people could be so mistaken about the president's religion?"
___________

Because his religion is no one's business but his own?

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 1:40 PM | Report abuse

On second thought, take the question mark off my answer and make that a statement.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 1:42 PM | Report abuse

"In America you can worship wherever you want, regardless of religious belief."

------------------------------------------------

Oh no you cannot! Try putting a nativity scene on city property at Christmas, try holding a christian youth meeting at your neighborhood middle school. We are not as dumb as you think. Muslims believe he is a muslim because he is. By definition, he is of muslim heritage because his father was muslim. Whether he professes the muslim faith is a different question altogether. Maybe the respondents are smarter than you!

Posted by: cornax | August 20, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

EVIDENCE THAT BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS "OBVIOUSLY" A CHRISTIAN

----------------------
[During interview with George Stephanopoulos]

Obama: You are absolutely right that John McCain has not ... uhhh... talked about my Muslim faith, and you're absolutely right that that has not come--"

Stephanopoulos: "Your Christian faith."

Obama: "...My Christian faith..."

-----

"[The Muslim call to prayer is] one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.” ~Barack Hussein Obama

-----

"God damn America!" ~ "reverend" Jeremiah Wright, Obama's "spiritual mentor" for 20 years

-----

[image of Obama kowtowing deeply to Saudi dignitary]

-----

"...typical white person." [Talking about his grandmother who raised him.] ~ Barack Hussein Obama

-----

Dreams from my Father [from the title of a book by Barack Obama, referring to his Muslim father who did NOT raise him]

-----

"...they [certain rural Americans] get bitter, they cling to their guns or religion..." ~ Barack Hussein Obama

-----

Conspicuous absence of church attendance

-----

Obama verbally expresses strong unequivocal support for the "right" to build the Abomination Mosque at Ground Zero, a monument to Islam proximate to ground made sacrosanct due to the American blood spilled there as a result of an Islamic terrorist attack

===============

Maybe he is a Christian, but to pretend there isn't room for speculation otherwise ... well ... that sounds like a pretty desperate attempt to quash any and all scrutiny. And the President of the United States will ALWAYS be subject to scrutiny.

METHINKS THE "USEFUL IDIOT" MEDIA AND THE FRINGE-WACKO LIBERAL ZOMBIES DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH.

Posted by: finsher771 | August 20, 2010 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Attending a Christian church, and that is a granting a very wide berth to say that Wright's church is even Christian, does not make one a Christian. To paraphrase Jesus - love your God, love your neighbor. His abortion stand alone discounts the claim.

Posted by: rogernebel | August 20, 2010 1:50 PM | Report abuse

yup, we're all dumb; despite our advanced degrees; too stoopid to see the truth in the following:

"Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. was born in Kanyadhiang village, Rachuonyo District[1] on the shores of Lake Victoria just outside Kendu Bay, Kenya Colony, at the time a colony of the British Empire. He was raised in the village of Nyang’oma Kogelo, Siaya District, Nyanza Province.[11] His family are members of the Luo ethnic group.
Obama, Sr. was a son of Hussein Onyango Obama (c. 1895-1979), who had at least three wives. His mother was Habiba Akumu Nyanjango of Karabondi, Kenya, his father's second wife through an arranged marriage. However, he was raised by Onyango's third wife, Sarah Ogwel of Kogelo, after Akumu left her family and separated from her husband in 1945.[3][12] Before working as a cook for missionaries in Nairobi, Onyango had travelled widely, enlisting in the British colonial forces and visiting Europe, India, and Zanzibar, where he converted from Roman Catholicism to Islam and took the name Hussein. His father also made all his wives convert to Islam. Hussein Onyango was jailed by the British for six months in 1949 due to his involvement in the Kenyan independence movement. "

THIS MAKES DREAMS OF MY FATHER, OBAMA'S KORAN.

Posted by: Common_Cents1 | August 20, 2010 1:51 PM | Report abuse

If you really want to go all Godwin's Law on the issue, there is a church in Joel's hometown that wants to organize a good ole-fashioned Koran burning.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045/1118?p=all&tc=pgall&tc=ar

Now there is the path to some cross-cultural enlightenment.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Funny, finsher, not a single thing you cut and pasted shows one bit that Obama is a muslim, mudlim or muslin.

He has muslim heritage. He has spoken to muslims. He has lived in muslim-majority countries.

One half of my parents were female. I have spoken glowingly about females. I lived for two years in a dormitory that was 66% female. I am a male.

By your logic, I would be a female.

You can speculate all you want. I can also speculate as to how intelligent you are. It is a free country.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 2:00 PM | Report abuse

Finsher, I don't remember reading anything in the Bible about America, guns, or caucasians. Your arguments posted here on those topics seem absurd to me, and rather offensive.

Tell me, have you read the Q'oran?
The Bible, cover to cover?

I have.

As a side note, your use of all caps makes me think that I'm wasting my time writing this, as much as you did posting yours.

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 20, 2010 2:02 PM | Report abuse

Americans are sheep. As Mark Twain said, "a patriot hollers the loudest, without knowing what they're hollering about".

Posted by: jckdoors | August 20, 2010 2:03 PM | Report abuse

POLITICO..."Although reared among Muslims, Obama, Sr., became an atheist at some point." and just where is that point? ...Like father like son?

Posted by: Common_Cents1 | August 20, 2010 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Dang. You got us there, Common Cents. He IS a muslim. Why? Because his father was one.

You know what? I am a retired high school prinicpal. Why? Because my father was one.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Dr. Johnson said patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Posted by: Yoki | August 20, 2010 2:09 PM | Report abuse

chrisjadams, you mistook my curiosity about your background for some sort of qualification threshold. When I said "be my guest" I meant it.

How would you suggest we start cracking at this tough nut called fear?

Posted by: MsJS | August 20, 2010 2:11 PM | Report abuse

Common_Cents, you do know that Albert Einstein spent decades trying to disprove quantum mechanics (utilized for many electronic devices these days), and that Isaac Newton spent decades pursuing the dream of alchemy?

Advanced degrees and high intelligence don't always make people right about everything, particularly when people become fixated on ideas to the point of obsession.

As has been noted exhaustively, people see what they want, and can rationalize darn near anything.

We Humans are particulary lousy Observers, but we're all we've got.

bc

Posted by: -bc- | August 20, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

Actually, his family history & it's relationship to Muslim theology isn't a simple 'slam dunk', since both his father and mother were advocates of various types of liberation. His family members were quite distinguished, many graduating from places like Brown and owning businesses.

If anything there are a buffet of Muslim influences from many directions...Kenyan Father, Indonesia, half brother, Rev. Wright. Obama could pick and choose and adapt his views accordingly.

Posted by: Common_Cents1 | August 20, 2010 2:17 PM | Report abuse

I'm gonna have to go all Barney Frank on folks from now on. The variety of dinner table I prefer to argue with is butcher block.

It beats going all Dick Cheney on them. I get many more urges to do that, when they act too much like Pat Leahy.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

Baldinho...DREAMS OF MY FATHER is Obama's Koran....read a bit of it and you'll see what I mean...the apple never falls far from the tree.

Posted by: Common_Cents1 | August 20, 2010 2:22 PM | Report abuse

People are silly. Partisans too often argue silly things they can plainly see are not true, but that there is evidence to "prove" that they are.

I like the metaphor of two partisans flipping a coin. One insists it is always heads. One insists it is always tails.

They flip. It is heads. One yells "See! I told you so." They flip again. It is tails. The other yells "See! I told you so."

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 2:22 PM | Report abuse

Here's a great example of how a mealy-mouthed lie-slinger deliberately misinterprets something to mean what it obviously doesn't. It was Stephanopoulos who lost track of the thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I

One can start at about 1 minute in or see it all.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 2:23 PM | Report abuse

I suppose there are a number of useful "silver lining" aspects to this whole firestorm.

One is that there are only about 18 percent of you. I suppose it could be better, but then it could be worse. In any event, you are a minority of American opinion, albeit a distressingly large one.

But however large you are, virtually 99 percent of you are not, were not, and never will be Obama voters anyhow. You didn't vote for him in 2008, and you're not gonna vote for him in 2012, and that fact doesn't change one iota whether you think he's a muslim or Chuck E. Cheese. So your effect on the electorate turns out to be minimal, which is to say, basically the status quo, with maybe just a little bit of flux.

Third, you are now all pretty much out in the open, and a lot of the national media, which has been basically pretty polite and enabling toward you heretofor, has finally come out and taken a position that you fall within a narrow range of descriptions, whether it be morons, stupid, misguided, irrational, venting, sincere but wrong-headed, openly bigoted, closeted bigoted, unconsciously bigoted, bigoted if not to race then to religion, and that a small portion of you may actually be intelligent enough to know better but are simply using this issue, which you know to be incorrect, as a cynical political weapon. It kind of doesn't matter which if any of those choices applies to any one of you as an individual. The matter has now come to national attention, and a substantial body of opinion (including the MSM, whether you like them or not) now openly regard you as holding to a factually incorrect belief.

Whether "you hate us" or whether "we hate you" really doesn't enter it to it. It's virtually no different now than it was a few weeks ago; it's just now more out-in-the-open. There is no the possibility that serious, intelligent people may begin to discuss "what to do about you" (i.e., your state of ignorance and/or disbelief in major cultural and political institutions and touchstones). I doubt anyone will ever come up with a "fix," but it opens up the question.

Fifth, you ultimately aren't the "problem" of Obama, his administration, or the MSM, or even "the left," Dems, or even the center. Your major nemesis is the other half of your party. No one cares that you are likely Consservatives and/or right-wingers; that's your prerogative. But it is going to become increasing important to the GOP leadership just what the hell to do with you. Granted they don't care while you are out and about savaging Obama. But at some point they need you to be reasonably tractable, rational, predictable and reliable. Big Business, Wall Street, and the old-line, "mainstream" wing of the GOP still need you, but they need you to be reasonably adept at reality-testing, participating "within" the system rather than running off half-cocked, and they need you to be rational. So that's why you're their problem and not mine/"ours."

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 2:27 PM | Report abuse

I'm convinced too. Now that that scales have fallen from my eyes, so much makes sense.

Now I know why there is a Secret Service guy who follows him around carrying his prayer rug in the brief case. Why Michelle is never allowed out in public without her arms and head covered. Why he didn't drink any of the beer when he met with Louis Gates and that cop. Why he starts all his speeches with 'Allahu Akbar'. Why he keeps trying to move the White House to Mecca.

I am so glad that the persistence of our many commenters finally made me see the light. I welcome our new Muslim overlord.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Some human beings are clever observers....watch birds and learn how to fly. When it comes to human behavior, they often take the most incisive observations and come up with wacky theories, i.e. Wilhelm Reich; or theories that have lasting value, ie. Maslow.

Posted by: Common_Cents1 | August 20, 2010 2:30 PM | Report abuse

MsJS -

Sorry for being prickly about it.

The fact is, I think there are many different ways to chip away at fear - but to me, the best one is exposure and familiarity. I had an Uncle visit me from New England here in DC, and we walked through a mostly hispanic neighborhood on our way to dinner, and he was proclaiming loudly about how illegal immigration was the scourge of our country. It was less than comfortable. We went, ironically, to a Mexican restaurant, staffed primarily by hispanics as well, where he continued the discussion.
After dinner, we sat down and talked...and I told him about my experiences here with "those people." I told him about how my daughter is in a daycare staffed primarily by hispanic women and how incredibly caring and wonderful they are, and about how I was thrilled that my daughter was being exposed to another language at her young age and another culture. I talked about how if I came from poverty and had an opportunity to come here to better my life for myself and my family, I would take that chance. I talked about how friendly and hardworking so many of "those people" are.
Did it completely change his mind? Probably not. But I haven't heard him mention the issue since when I see him, and his wife told me that he wasn't really focusing on the subject the way he was before we talked.
I don't think it's that I was so persuasive - I think it's the fact that I came from the same place he did, am his relative, and had a copmletely different point of view that was based on actual experience, whereas his was based on things he had heard or read. And I think that's powerful stuff.
So much fear comes from ignorance. And here we have the internet...and it seems like so much of what it does is just spread MORE, rather than combating it. It's depressing, honestly.
So, off the top of my head, do I have answers? No. But I do feel like if we can all agree that this is THE major stumbling block to progressing toward acceptance in our society, can't we work on it together?

Posted by: chrisjadams | August 20, 2010 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Apples fall far from the tree all the time, uncommon scents. Jeez, I don't really give a hoot about your politics but unhinge your mind from one of the all-time silliest, dumbest, incorrect cliches ever devised. Apples roll all over the damn place.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 2:33 PM | Report abuse

From a previous comment: "The problem with this 18-percent cohort...is that it has its own TV network and a dozen major pundits and performers feeding its psychosis."

I absolutely agree. The worst thing that has happened to America in my lifetime is Rupert Murdoch and talk radio. Hands down irresponsible extremist enablement. Our better angels and isoloation, one from another, used to constrain the real sociopaths in this country. No longer. They come together on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

There's not much hope.

Uncle Ron

Posted by: uncle9 | August 20, 2010 2:35 PM | Report abuse

The more bombing Muslims do, the nicer Obama seems to be toward them. Maybe if the Buddhists or Hindus want to "curry" (no pun intended) favor with Obama, they should start bombing stuff.

Posted by: hz9604 | August 20, 2010 2:36 PM | Report abuse

One fifth of Americans are numbskulls. One fifth of Americans call themselves Liberals. Coincidence? I think not.

Posted by: hz9604 | August 20, 2010 2:41 PM | Report abuse

I just left a big pot of green curry chicken coconut w/lime soup and an apple pie in the bunker. Hurry on over and have some, all ye boodlers.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Must.... not.... repeat.... again.... that.... the..... builders of the Cordoba House..... did.....not..... bomb.... the.... Twin..... Towers. Must.... resist.....urge....to.....swear.....at....hz9604.

Not all muslims are terrorists. There. I said it.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 3:20 PM | Report abuse

Front Page Alert canceled, I do believe.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 3:22 PM | Report abuse

chrisjadams, I admire your thoughtfulness and good intentions. I applaud your willingness to use education on a personal level to combat misapprehensions and fear. I agree that is an important tool and can do a lot of good.

I worry that the tool is only effective if the people you're educating agree to listen. Fear is a great driver, and fear of the unknown actually seems comforting to some people. Many people who espouse opinions formed in the abstract will change their opinions - at least in individual cases - when confronted with real examples which don't fit the abstract idea. Some of these folk (a) don't agree they are acting from fear; (b) don't agree fear is a bad foundation; and (c) thus won't agree to listen and learn about anything which might contradict, disprove or assuage that fear.

I know we can never reach everybody, and for that reason I find Curmudgeon's analysis comforting - these people were not Obama voters and do not significantly change the status quo. However, I'm concerned that the tide of fear they represent must be addressed, and I worry about the percentage of these people who refuse to acknowledge they have any issue which needs addressing.

Please note I refrained from using "wingnut" or "moonbat" or any other derogator term in this post. Thank you.

Posted by: Ivansmom | August 20, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
o Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 3:44 PM | Report abuse

I know, baldinho, I know. These people are just unable to make fine distinctions. Hell, they aren't even "fine"; they are medium and even coarse distinctions. Give them a situation where there are degrees and gradations and nuances and differences, and they are utterly unable to process the information.

Ivansmom, another silver lining point is that the backlash against these people has nowe already begun, with people like Ponnaru (ugh), Gerson, et al., starting to say, hey, wait a minute here...

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Just more proof of my longstanding theory that, in general, people are morons.

Posted by: TomR3 | August 20, 2010 3:53 PM | Report abuse

According to the rules of Islam, the President is technically a Moslem, whether he wants to be or not.

1. The child of a Moslem father is a Moslem

2. A Moslem is forbidden to "leave the faith".

Thus, even if the president considers himself a different religion, Moslems will define him as one. In fact, if he attempts to "become" a Christian, he is defined as an "apostate" and subject to the death penalty.

This does not have anything to do with what the president defines himself as, but it is the Sharia law.

Posted by: sabbahillel | August 20, 2010 3:59 PM | Report abuse

I used to have a very nice plether jacket, but the plether cracked and fell off. Never had plether pants, so no plether on my nether.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 4:00 PM | Report abuse

We progressively dismantled our system of public education to favor private for-profit schools. Our poor, uneducated youth can only look forward to the Armed Forces or Professional sports for basic, unskilled employment-where only concussions, fractures, maming and death or at best post-traumatic stress syndrome awaits them. This tragic situation keeps our youth like lemmings, falling off a cliff.
Yes, we would have to say a cross section of America is pretty dumb-and its showing more and more every day.

Posted by: lionelroger | August 20, 2010 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Seriously, why do the rules of Islam matter? I'm still trying to understand that.

He and his father left the faith. If other Muslims see him as Muslim, fine. What percentage of the 18% are they? I guarantee that they are not all Muslim.

Posted by: MoftheMountain | August 20, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

We progressively dismantled our system of public education to favor private for-profit schools. Our poor, uneducated youth can only look forward to the Armed Forces or Professional sports for basic, unskilled employment-where only concussions, fractures, maiming and death or at best post-traumatic stress syndrome awaits them. This tragic situation keeps our youth like lemmings, falling off a cliff.
Yes, we would have to say a cross section of America is pretty dumb-and its showing more and more every day.

Posted by: lionelroger | August 20, 2010 4:05 PM | Report abuse

What I see repeated in these posts is a tendency to assign thoughts to the "other" using a very wide brush. Stepjohn2 (at 5:34pm) purports to accurately charactize the thought of about half of America by saying "Liberals in America have decided..." and "As for the left's defamatory..." - wow, if you know exactly what unknown others think you must be great at the tables in Las Vegas! Of course when I pointed out that Stepjohn2 was creating imaginary enemies and assigning them thoughts what did he say in return? That I was "angry" - this is classic right-wing subject changing. Rather than cop to his intellectual laziness Stepjohn2 accuses the liberal of being angry. We are used to this after eight years of the Bush horror show; when we objected to the constitution being trampled and our rights being curtailed (both happened) then we were called "angry." Now maybe my post doesn't rise to the "shrewd analytical thinking" that Stepjohn2 demands in his 10:20 post (after his epic fail to reach that standard in his 5:34 post) but at least I was referring to thoughts an individual actually expressed rather than some made-up straw man blather like the big load that Stepjohn2 was assigning to a large group of people that he doesn't even know. It is this intellectual laziness that I see as an ongoing theme in the right-wingnut posts in this achen-thread. Of course when a liberal posts in a spirited vein he is called "angry" - more of the right-wingnut double standard.

Posted by: anotheractor | August 20, 2010 4:13 PM | Report abuse

sabbahillel, none of this rage, this bigotry, this stupidity, and this willful blindness, intolerance and irrational fulmination has anything whatsoever to do with a very close and narrow reading of whatever fine points of Sharia law might or might not say. Further, Sharia law not only carries no weight whatsoever here, the kind of people who are raving about this business are not the kind of people who actually know any fine points of Sharia law, nor care about Sharia law, and in fact to the degree that they even know what the heck it is, despise it and hold in contempt. They don't loathe and despise Obama AND the Dems AND the liberals AND the politics and policies because of some fine point of Sharia law. It's got nothing to do with anything, least of all the merits of the argument about whether they are numbskulls or not.

So give it a rest, please.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | August 20, 2010 4:16 PM | Report abuse

What Country does a Zeno come from?

Are Americans total numbskulls?
Joelie Achenbach?
Hello?

God help us? No Joel, Allah help you! The Everlasting helps US over bumps in the road, like y'all, your fiends in the nationalized government media complex, and those such as Spokes*ss Nazi Pulousi who wants to investigate those who, still covered be the 1st amendment, speak and work against that which she and others (so she says) agree with. This, El Achtungbach, is not dismaying to you at all. No, you are so comforted by the prospect of a Cordoba style tickle-me-el-Mohammed and Culture of Community Activists Center in the shadow of the Vapor Cloud still visable in the minds and hearts of several Million Americans and the stench still in the nostrils of the Almighty you are stupid enough to ask to help you, that the Ex(tra?)-Muslim Rev. Jeremiah Wright, a now reformed? Afrocentrist spokes-mouth for the most extreme Ameriphobic coalition in the history of Western Civilization mentoring the not-so-great-lately communicator in chief for many years seems ample proof that the majority in this Country (and around the world) that smell something like Panthers in Heat are just imagining things that only Racists would ever conclude. No, Joel, allah may help by saving a few christian girls for you when he takes over his little corner of somewhere, but you would do well to ask some forgiveness for your own self for having no excuse for the view you operate under, and yes total numbskulls do exist in this equation, but they don't fall far from the Washington Post rooftop which, lucky for you, wasn't the target on 9-11-2001. It is astonishing what an embarrassment you appear to be to the ethnic heritage you apparently are loathe to represent.

Americans for Stopping the Serial Mal-Practice of Journalism by ABMSNBDNCNNBS and The Apostate Government Media Complex

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 4:38 PM | Report abuse

Muslim 'roots' is the new dog whistle phrase to allow intellectually dishonest pundits to spread the whisper campaign without appearing to be an ignorant mouth-breather. A Washington Examiner columnist managed to use the phrase eight times in a single column.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Obama-has-himself-to-blame-for-Muslim-problem-101123634.html

Watch for more of this phrase and pointed rhetorical questions about his heritage from conservative media types. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just noticing the pattern.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Wonderful Wonderful

Posted by: Boomslang | August 20, 2010 4:46 PM | Report abuse

RichNomore is so incoherent as to approach self-parody, but there is no satirizing ignorance that deep. I do like 'Nazi Pelosi', so I'm wondering where he stole it from. But 'El Achtungbach' is gratuitous even by Godwin Law standards.

P.S.
You don't even want to know how many GoogleHits "Nazi Pelosi" gets. Let's just say it is far from a googlenope.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 4:49 PM | Report abuse

If the Q'oran burning in Gainesville didn't achieve Godwin's Law here, RichNomore's acidity etched it in stone.

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 4:56 PM | Report abuse

The best way to lose lots of election, Joel, is to call everyone stupid.

But then, that's what you Lefties think anyway --- the public is just stupid, which is why they need you intellectual elites so badly.

Here's hoping that this November, Brokaw can complain that the "stupid public" had another "temper tantrum" like they did in 1994.

Posted by: CREEBOLD | August 20, 2010 5:02 PM | Report abuse

The defense that is offered in the article "Obama is a Christian, and famously attended a Christian church led by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whom no one would take for a Muslim." is a non-starter and blind to the fact that Wright WAS a muslim and converted to Christianity. Christianity does not rail against other (as this "church" does) and is more personal - not power-hungry. Well communicated that Rev was a mentor to Obama and the fact that going with whatever to achieve power is the way he chose. He's not a Muslim, but "whatever it takes".

Posted by: allbefree | August 20, 2010 5:03 PM | Report abuse

RichnoMore, you are hilarious! Maybe there's a job for you on Saturday Night Live!

Posted by: rickoshea11 | August 20, 2010 5:07 PM | Report abuse

I nominate RichNomore for the Numbskull of Numbskulls Award. Out of almost 800 comments you stand above the fray in prejudice, lack of clarity, grammatical innovations and just overall nuttyness.
Well done Sir.

This made me laugh. A farm cannot recall 380 million eggs. A large Agri-Business certainly can but it is not a farm by any definition. They probably get subsidized as a farm though. Got to love the US Congress.
"The FDA says the recall is related to an ongoing investigation of an outbreak that has sickened more than 1,000 people...Wright County Egg, the Iowa farm that recalled 380 million eggs earlier this week..."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/20/health/main6789606.shtml

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 20, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse

I second Shriek's nomination, I was just pondering if that post was real or satire, because no one could think like that could they, please, please tell me it is satire.

Posted by: dmd3 | August 20, 2010 5:20 PM | Report abuse

Truth by any other name is incoherent, and just who is stealing from whom?

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 5:28 PM | Report abuse

If it acts like a duck and quacks like a duck 20% of the people might think its a duck. Besides is being a muslim a bad thing?

Posted by: Anders5 | August 20, 2010 5:28 PM | Report abuse

Yes, there must be at least 20 percent dumb and numbskulls americans not because they are starting to ask questions now, but because they did'nt ask those questions before the election.Two years ago, nobody wanted to listen, the majority have already decided, enough with the Bush family, we're fed up, we need a change and a change they got.
If the constitution demand that the president must be born in the US , why is it so difficult to clarify this before the nomination by the democratic party, or as a legal procedure of electing president?
Why is the matter of the birthday certificate so complicated in a country where every candidate for crucial public post is subject to an open hearing and investigation by congress and/or senate committee? Why is this most critical demanding position , where some of the decisions to be taken could be fatal,and probably can affect the lives of millions of americans is not requiring such a hearing, during which the candidate is obliged to answer, by law, all the questions including religion, citizenship and birth certificate, military record, etc
In President Obama's case one cannot avoid asking, looking back into his family roots and the education he absorbed in Africa and most important in Indonesia; is this the ideal typical black american hero that we were all longing for and ready to embrace? I think that the answer today is probsbly yes but with a lot of doubts and certainly not so enthusiastic as it was before the election.

Posted by: seedtech | August 20, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

On September 11, 2001, America was attacked by a group of people who claimed to be acting in the practice of Islam - not a country or a political bloc - but Islam. If the majority of the Muslim community doesn't see it that way, then they should act accordingly and police their religion appropriately as the Catholics did at the end of the Inquisition.
As I see it, this isn't about supporting the freedom of practicing one's religion, this is about Americans (of any and all faiths) feeling affronted and offended by terrorists and not supporting the building of a church representing the religion that was used as the basis of the attack on us near the site of the attack.
Building a mosque anywhere near the old site of the World Trade Center can be viewed as nothing less than a victory of radical Islam.

Posted by: dschalton | August 20, 2010 5:55 PM | Report abuse

Crumb: thanks so much for the grammatical critique - you have no idea how much I appreciate it! You should have a job as an editor - but not a supervisor (just sayin').
You are so obviously my intellectual superior - I am in awe!
However: On September 11, 2001, America was attacked by a group of people who claimed to be acting in the practice of Islam - not a country or a political bloc -but Islam. If the majority of the Muslim community doesn't see it that way, then they should act accordingly and police their religion appropriately as the Catholics did at the end of the Inquisition.
As I see it, this isn't about supporting the freedom of practicing one's religion, this is about Americans (of any and all faiths) feeling affronted and offended by terrorists and not supporting the building of a church representing the religion that was used as the basis of the attack on us near the site of the attack.
Building a mosque anywhere near the old site of the World Trade Center can be viewed as nothing less than a victory of radical Islam.
I hope you have a really nice life.
Incidentally, your alias really fits your personality!
Best regards,
Dave

Posted by: dschalton | August 20, 2010 6:13 PM | Report abuse

Richnomore's done splendidly, but might benefit from working on selective use of capital letters and the use of quotation marks. "The Book of 'Unnecessary' Quotation Marks" will help.
http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/

Is some member of Congress working on legislation to define Islam as a banned political movement, not a religion and therefore not subject to the "no religious test" and "free exercise" clauses of the Constitution? How about Scientology? A Baptist church that burns American flags?

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | August 20, 2010 6:16 PM | Report abuse

teddymzuri et al, how does it feel to be in a minority?

WE will not run, neither will WE accept the nomination of a minority party sure to divide an already agitated to extreme voter base. WE swing together or WE fall apart.

yellojkt, try a search for Nazi Phewlousi or Spokes Jack*ss Nazi Pulousi

Some of US are losing OUR sense of humour after TWO years of nothing but.......

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 6:16 PM | Report abuse

Are there sleepers amongst the Muslims?
Why doesent a sizable bloc come out en masse, take to the streets and condemn their fellow Muslims worldwide for the atrocities etc etc.
Why?

Posted by: AustraliaForever | August 20, 2010 6:20 PM | Report abuse

There are two kinds of idiots in the US - those who poll people and those who believe the poll results.

Posted by: pub123 | August 20, 2010 6:20 PM | Report abuse

Excuse, linguists of the state of denial, that should have been "a already agitated to extreme voter base".

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 6:27 PM | Report abuse

Muslims also died in the 9/11 attacks - it's a two clip video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seH_gnUzj-E&videos=NNJJXOzW9rI

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

See, richnomore, you are wrong. There are enough Republicans and conservatives with honor to prevent the likes of you from gaining a foothold of power in this country.

There was a big movement of Republican thinkers and Republican moderates in the last election. They moved away from the party that was too quick to embrace your type of stupid rhetoric.

They saw people like you, threw up in their mouth a little bit, and pulled the lever for the Democrats.

I don't know any of the people that did that who now are rethinking their decision. They turned away from the GOP for doing what the GOP is doing now... and since then the GOP has doubled down or tripled down on that stuff.

You, the people who sicken most of us, have this great niche power on the internet. You, and other truly offensive people everywhere of all stripes, revel and thrive in the internet space. You can say things and make up things and be simply horrible people.... and thrive, because like-minded people join you in the only medium that you have ever been able to thrive in.

You take being surrounded by like-minded fools as being in the majority and being on the cusp of greatness, but you are not.

You will see once again in November what real America is like. We are honorable people who actually believe the concepts that our nation was built upon.

We don't believe people like you should be in charge, and we never have. We never will.

Sorry.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 6:44 PM | Report abuse

Holy carp RichNomore, "Excuse, linguists of the state of denial, that should have been a already agitated to extreme voter base" doesn't even start to fix your previous post; it makes it worse. The State of Denial is not recognized by any of the countries that are members of the UN.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 20, 2010 7:00 PM | Report abuse

Ken Ham.
Shaddup.

Posted by: Boomslang | August 20, 2010 7:14 PM | Report abuse

Well there you go again baldinho, second guessing and analyzing yourself into a minority corner. If you zero in on your own, in the name of Honor, open mindedness, and showing 'the enemy' they don't exist if you don't call them the enemy, you become like the 'good father' who puts his own children in danger for the sake of 'rule of law', 'fairness', and 'compassion', you end up with pedophiles all over your neighborhood and in your tent. This debate is not about Mosques, Religion, or any of the issues being thrown like Molotov Cocktails into a perfectly good political party whose spokes-mouths volunteer to zip their lips every time a Blog, Wog, or Whatever suggests that they will lose if they answer these challenges outside the box. So WE hope people like you stop throwing up and start throwing in with what is shaping up to be d*mn good majority. No Republican thinker or Republican moderate ever threw an election like what happened to US in 2008. Let's not repeat history.

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 7:22 PM | Report abuse

"People assume, as the starting point on any issue, that they're being lied to. Maybe they want to believe that because it offers an explanation, of sorts, for why the world isn't the way we think it ought to be."

Or possibly, the world isn't the way it ought to be because people ARE being lied to. I think that is a very valid starting point these days.

Posted by: sherivan | August 20, 2010 7:45 PM | Report abuse

sherivan,

Isn't it interesting that what a person doesn't see can tell US more about where they may be coming from than what he does see?

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 8:03 PM | Report abuse

Americans have become like Lemmings following what ever the current popular thought of the day is. It will eventually lead them all over the proverbial cliff.

Posted by: CameraShy | August 20, 2010 8:12 PM | Report abuse

The original silent movie version of The Empire Strikes Back. (Spoiler alert if you've never seen it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOjzLggAKis&feature=player_embedded

Posted by: yellojkt | August 20, 2010 8:21 PM | Report abuse

To all who did not see that the point is there is no point unless you are diverted by your own prejudice and hypnosis to hoist yourself on an imagined point to keep from seeing what can be seen for your own good. The problem most people have with the current chatter is that the Country (a very good one by the way) is plagued with a very tiny minority of Ameriphobes, but the majority of those who flock to the available platforms and microphones are fooled into thinking they must join the tiny minority in order to stay in the money being sucked out of OUR banks and pockets. Soon the drought in Nevada will spread like real global warming and this majority of minority enablers may find no water at the levy to float their boats to victory as it did in the past.

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 8:23 PM | Report abuse

rich, it is worse than you think. My only son has one godparent. She is a muslim. My wife is a Jew. See, I actually know muslims. I don't just envision them as the bogeyman who eats my children, like you do.

Boo! Scared you, didn't I?

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 8:24 PM | Report abuse

Rich, I'd talk to you more, but the muslim hiding behind the door is telling me that isn't allowed under sharia law, and I must abide by his wishes. I am powerless to resist. Darn! If I'd only listened to you earlier.

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 8:27 PM | Report abuse

Baldi,

Proving precisely a point is easy to stay on when you own it and are the only one on it. The tiny minority rules in it's own world.

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 8:33 PM | Report abuse

More torture for you, rich. My faculty advisor when in college...a Turkish-American muslim. My senior project advisor.... Lebanese-American. The head of the structural engineering department... Egyptian-American. You can only imagine how many guns and crosses I had to keep handy to survive that onslaught to my values, I'll tell you.

I was just working on a bridge project out of our Boston office. The guy that backchecked my calculations..... Amgad Reiad! Muslim! My previous employer had a large Boston office. The head of the bridge group.... Egyptian! Oh, the humanity.

You know what these folks had in common with me? Just about everything. Boo!

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 8:37 PM | Report abuse

1 in 5 journalists is likely to be a jack-ass that judges people according to polls.

I doubt Obama has a religion other than the Rules for Radicals.
He can recite the Muslim Call to Prayer, but has no idea of the offensive language his pastor uses on a regular basis. The real question should be: Why do more disbelieve he is a Christian now than when he was elected?

Posted by: BigEfromMKE | August 20, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

It's just bad form to point out all the Christian terrorists, and that they don't mean we should start shootin' Christians. Custer died for your sins, poor boy.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 20, 2010 8:46 PM | Report abuse

I see the Red Sox are down only 11-0 right now. Lester got knocked out. Oof. You folks got any seats left on the Nationals bandwagon?

For no reason, a cool tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRr310chhwY

Posted by: baldinho | August 20, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

Well Baldingho, do not forget the Natinals are the Montreal Expos in disguise. Late season isn't usually propitious to the team. Just saying. They are the Pinto/Vega/Edsel of shaky bandwagon.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | August 20, 2010 9:07 PM | Report abuse

@Jumper1, I didn't know Custer was a Christian. Sooooo, you're saying Custer killed in the name of Christianity????

Strrrrrrrrrretch!

Posted by: BigEfromMKE | August 20, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

It's not the content (necessarily) of this video, it's the title that counts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVnqtIjk0Js

Posted by: talitha1 | August 20, 2010 9:23 PM | Report abuse

AustraliaForever,

As it was written so shall it be. There is a great silent majority in these communities in Western Countries and the very vocal and savvy minority among them never sleep and make sure the majority stay deafeningly silent. WE believe the condemnation of atrocities will surely be muted as long as the great noise the Ameriphobe Community-Activists and their sympathizer-enablers make is reported and amplified without significant editorial content when things don't go their way.

Are there sleepers amongst the Muslims?
Why doesent a sizable bloc come out en masse, take to the streets and condemn their fellow Muslims worldwide for the atrocities etc etc.
Why?

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 10:19 PM | Report abuse

AustraliaForever,

As it was written so shall it be. There is a great silent majority in these communities in Western Countries and the very vocal and savvy minority among them never sleep and make sure the majority stay deafeningly silent. WE believe the condemnation of atrocities will surely be muted as long as the great noise the Ameriphobe Community-Activists and their sympathizer-enablers make is reported and amplified without significant editorial content when things don't go their way.

Are there sleepers amongst the Muslims?
Why doesent a sizable bloc come out en masse, take to the streets and condemn their fellow Muslims worldwide for the atrocities etc etc.
Why?

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 10:21 PM | Report abuse

AustraliaForever,

As it was written so shall it be. There is a great silent majority in these communities in Western Countries and the very vocal and savvy minority among them never sleep and make sure the majority stay deafeningly silent. WE believe the condemnation of atrocities will surely be muted as long as the great noise the Ameriphobe Community-Activists and their sympathizer-enablers make is reported and amplified without significant editorial content when things don't go their way.

Are there sleepers amongst the Muslims?
Why doesent a sizable bloc come out en masse, take to the streets and condemn their fellow Muslims worldwide for the atrocities etc etc.
Why?

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 10:22 PM | Report abuse

AustraliaForever,

As it was written so shall it be. There is a great silent majority in these communities in Western Countries and the very vocal and savvy minority among them never sleep and make sure the majority stay deafeningly silent. WE believe the condemnation of atrocities will surely be muted as long as the great noise the Ameriphobe Community-Activists and their sympathizer-enablers make is reported and amplified without significant editorial content when things don't go their way.

Are there sleepers amongst the Muslims?
Why doesent a sizable bloc come out en masse, take to the streets and condemn their fellow Muslims worldwide for the atrocities etc etc.
Why?

Posted by: RichNomore | August 20, 2010 10:24 PM | Report abuse

Sadly too many Americans are numbskulls. Start with SCOTUS overturning FL law without an over riding Federal law to install Dubya. You go to 911 where a jumbo jet hits the Pentagon without leaving any physical evidence. The Cheney conspiracy group outs a secret agent endangering all that had contact with her without the chief going down having Scooter take the fall. Saddam had deadly biologicals in a mobile van breeched by a simple accident, ROFLMAO. Creationists, birthers, Obama hates America all in the same grouping. Keeping the Dubya tax cuts for the rich will have them invest in America (read WaPo on why corps are not hiring). The housing market is fine when everyone with decent credit had already refinanced by 04, with no letup in the ridiculous 10% home price increases annually. Unions make America uncompetitive when outsourcing to nations that allow exploiting is the real skinny. We got your back Georgia, LOL. Dubya was strong against terror when he allowed Wahabi Imans into our prisons and military. Palin was ready to become POTUS. The Tea Party candidates have a platform to restore Americas greatness. Stimulus pumping a half trillion dollars into a sales and service economy did nothing. Our health care system did not need any changes (although Reid did his best to destroy it by not enhancing Pelosi's bill writing a flawed plan that needed two fixes). Trickle down/no regulation will work after failing 3 times. I could go on but there is a character limit on posts.

Posted by: jameschirico | August 20, 2010 11:18 PM | Report abuse

"I've been waiting for an article with this title, for a long, long time. The answer is, a growing majority of us are, and Americans WANT to be this way. Less education, more entertainment, less taken in taxes, but spent on useless junk that's been put on credit instead of savings. People are idiots, here, and they deserve what they get."

I think fbutler1 hit the nail on the head. A minority of Americans can afford quality education and think it's important, the rest get what they get and are mainly educated by TV (a branch the advertising industry) to think life consists of buying stuff, which makes you happy, and businesses, instead of paying for a quality education system for their own citizens -- for example one that allows nearly everyone qualified to attend a quality public university -- reckon their quarterly profits are better if they let the (pretty good) Indian education system do the work for them. Perhaps this is because businesses have lost their nationality. Even a company called American Express or Bank of America will outsource overseas as much as it can. I read that even legal opinions are outsourced -- do we have a country any more at that point? Foreigners telling us how the laws should work?

LTL-CA

Posted by: Jim19 | August 20, 2010 11:21 PM | Report abuse

It's funny - tell me, all you who are now ridiculing these so called idiots - where were you when the polls were out saying that one third of Americans believed that 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by our own government? Where were you when polls stated that the Iraq war was all about George Bush's desire to get at Iraq's oil - to line the pockets of all his oil buddies? Where were your descriptions of all the idiotic, goofy Americans then? No - it takes a poll talking about how a few Americans think Obungler may be a Muslim to get you to question the intellectual capacity of Americans. You see, you have provided nothing more than a forum to promote more of your partisan, straw man attacks against opponents of Mr. Obama. Many who questioned the bias of the media were labeled by media hacks and their minions as nuts as well - then Journo-list came to light. It's funny - in the demented, deluded world of leftists, any opposition to Obama must be ridiculed, and any opposition to all things conservative must be thoughtful, incisive and worthy of exposition. You fancy yourselves the intellectual elite, then fall back on tired old arguments focused exclusively on racism - a pavlovian response for American leftists. Had you been truly worried about conspiracy theories, you would have ridiculed 9/11 truthers in much the same way. The fact of the matter is this - this is NOT about religious freedom - this is NOT about the law. When it suits leftists, the law is all important - this mosque is the perfect example. However, change the topic to illegal immigration, and suddenly, the laws of the land mean nothing - the only thing that matters is compassion. Face it - leftists are all about agenda driven politics. Reasonable people know two things about this mosque 1) they have a right to build it 2) if they want to open dialogue with the West and begin to show a different side of Islam, there are better ways to go about it than insisting on defying the will of the American people and building near a site which remains a scar on the nation's collective psyche.

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 20, 2010 11:36 PM | Report abuse

The Guardian came to the opposite conclusion, but is just as meaningless. This progressive will debate any conservative and win. When you believe in a 3 time loser in Reaganomics/no regulation, it is not hard.

Posted by: jameschirico | August 20, 2010 11:43 PM | Report abuse

It has been my observation that those who refer to others as "stupid" or "morons",are usually the very people who most often fail to recognize their own shortcomings.

Posted by: AG52 | August 21, 2010 12:15 AM | Report abuse

i have never seen such a consistent string of ugly comments. reasonable people need to organise and head for the polls in such a way to overwhelm the vocal minority of fearful voters that have posted since this kit hit the front page yesterday. imo, these posters are representative of the 18% cited in the kit. that leaves 82% that are more widely read, and are more likely to cast a reasonable informed vote. i like those numbers. richnomore, you must have had some pretty bad person to person experiences to have developed the opinions you are so ready to share. i might suggest a couple of powders and a cold shower.

Posted by: -jack- | August 21, 2010 12:29 AM | Report abuse

What is even more staggering is that Joel Shake N bake is actually amazed that so many Americans are against building the mosque near ground Zero! He questions the intellect of Americans, then descends into the same mindless straw man blather that our regime leaders have been pushing on us - that this is some fight about freedom of religion. They refuse to ask themselves WHY - with so many opposed to this effort - the builders still remain hell bent on building here? How does this enhance the dialogue? Why is there the need to build near THIS particular location? With so many Americans telling this imam that they are insulted by his desire to build, is he that dense as to ignore the wishes of so many - or is it that he has some other purpose? The imam is a genius - no doubt about it...he found millions of useful idiots called progressives who would be more than willing to carry his water and make this about freedom of religion vs. being sensitive about a national tragedy. If he wanted to extend the hand of friendship, he would consider the feelings of Americans. If he does not, then one is perfectly logical in questioning his motive. Only those with an agenda promote this as a freedom of religion battle - the same frauds that completely ignore the laws of the country when it comes to illegal immigration are now using the law as the foundation for their straw man argument. We all know the type - these are the white, progressive, birkenstock wearing, hybrid car driving, wind powered home owning liberals who send their kids to elite private schools and are all for diversity in the communities - as long as it is not near them....

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 12:33 AM | Report abuse

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a large proportion of Americans is idiotic, numbskulls, ignorant, bigoted, whatever.

Shouldn't the rest of you enlightened types be packing your bags?

Drop a card from Saudi Arabia or any of those other misunderstood areas where you happen to settle. We knuckle-dragging troglodytes are ever solicitous of comments on the advancement of social justice and ecumenism.

Posted by: elgropo1 | August 21, 2010 12:33 AM | Report abuse

What is even more staggering is that Joel Shake N bake is actually amazed that so many Americans are against building the mosque near ground Zero! He questions the intellect of Americans, then descends into the same mindless straw man blather that our regime leaders have been pushing on us - that this is some fight about freedom of religion. They refuse to ask themselves WHY - with so many opposed to this effort - the builders still remain hell bent on building here? How does this enhance the dialogue? Why is there the need to build near THIS particular location? With so many Americans telling this imam that they are insulted by his desire to build, is he that dense as to ignore the wishes of so many - or is it that he has some other purpose? The imam is a genius - no doubt about it...he found millions of useful idiots called progressives who would be more than willing to carry his water and make this about freedom of religion vs. being sensitive about a national tragedy. If he wanted to extend the hand of friendship, he would consider the feelings of Americans. If he does not, then one is perfectly logical in questioning his motive. Only those with an agenda promote this as a freedom of religion battle - the same frauds that completely ignore the laws of the country when it comes to illegal immigration are now using the law as the foundation for their straw man argument. We all know the type - these are the white, progressive, birkenstock wearing, hybrid car driving, wind powered home owning liberals who send their kids to elite private schools and are all for diversity in the communities - as long as it is not near them....

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 12:34 AM | Report abuse

One definition of numbskull: thinks 20% is "huge majority."

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 21, 2010 12:57 AM | Report abuse

I am so confused, Obama is born a Muslim, then converts to Christianity and renounces the Muslim religion. He then attand a church for 25 years as a Christian. He is wed by the Reverand Wright, Reverand Wright baptises both daughters, is a spiritual advisor.....till he runs for President and he then renounces Reverand Wright.

I get further confused when President and Michelle Obama can't select a church in DC, although he assured the world he would select a local church. Doesn't attend church on Sunday, like every other President in the US History.

Attends church on Easter- decides that it's too much of a hassle to attend church


Yes, indeed, Obama is a Chrstian, and according to our brilliant author- he is a follower of the Black Liberation Theology:

Wright's theology not "new or radical"
Black religion expert Jonathan Walton on black liberation theology's roots in slavery, MLK Jr.'s "God damn America moment" and what Jeremiah Wright has in common with Gennifer Flowers.
By Sarah Posner

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2008/05/03/black_church/print.html


Posted by: falcon53in83 | August 21, 2010 1:11 AM | Report abuse

"I am so confused, Obama is born a Muslim, then converts to Christianity and renounces the Muslim religion. He then attand a church for 25 years as a Christian. He is wed by the Reverand Wright, Reverand Wright baptises both daughters, is a spiritual advisor.....till he runs for President and he then renounces Reverand Wright." [sic]

What bothers me about this, and some other posts, is the notion that someone is "born into" a religion, rather than a religion being something that one makes a considered decision to adopt.

Part of that idea is that indoctrinating people younger than maybe 14 in religious ideas (such as taking them to church) is a form of child abuse. How can a 4-year-old determine whether what she hears about Noah and the flood is true?

Unfortunately, this country is largely populated by people who "adopted" their religious beliefs before they were mature enough to understand what they were doing. This applies to immigrants including Muslims as much as native-born.

LTL-CA

Posted by: Jim19 | August 21, 2010 1:21 AM | Report abuse

Okay Achenbach, you and your followers are right. Why would anybody be suspicious that Obama may in fact be Muslim? Just because he has a Muslim name, his father was Muslim, his mother was an atheist (no Christian indoctrination there), his half-sisters and brother are Muslim and he was partially raised by a Muslim step-father and attended a Muslim school in Indonesia. Further, he sat for 20 years in a church led by the Rev. Wright (whom he never listened to) who was in fact a Muslim before he adopted black liberation theology. Now we all know that if Obama says he is a Christian he must be. A politician running for the presidency 7 years after 9/11 would never lie about his faith.

I am sick and tired of people like Achenbach who call people names primarily because they don't believe what they do. I am cynical enough to believe that Achenbach wrote what he did just to get the Whitehouse’s attention and that he may not really believe what he wrote. After all, journalists never lie either, do they.

As for whether Obama is a Christian I could care less. Lots of people say they are Christian and likely aren’t. Others don't make their faith known but are in fact Christians. In the end God will sort it all out.

The people will speak in November and we "idiots" and "numbskulls" will introduce some adult supervision to this congress and administration.

Posted by: clsdphelps | August 21, 2010 1:32 AM | Report abuse

Help Joel! Help!

Posted by: Yoki | August 21, 2010 2:09 AM | Report abuse

Would offer the better question is; are MSM Journalists truth-challenged and/or just useful dupes?

The reason why more Americans believe that Obama may be Muslim or has 'Muslim proclivities' is that he has offered - shown - as much, himself! Obama has spoken of his Muslim Faith; has recited publicly, the Muslim call to prayer - in Arabic - attended a Muslim school and one Catholic - and enrolled as Muslim, in both. We know that that Obama's Father was born in Kenya and he was a Muslim, which by traditional turn makes Obama a Muslim; declared or not.

In addition to his political Muslim inclinations; Obama has 'waxed eloquently' on Islam as a revealed religion and referred (inadvertently) to Islam as "my Muslim Faith". Suffice to say; there IS reason to imagine a Muslim affinity, given Obama's continuum of metaphoric bows to Mecca. And they just keep on coming.

(MSM is often reminding us, that Obama attended a Christian Church in Chicago; pastored as it was during 'Obama's Chicago Years', by ex Nation of Islam disciple/soldier, Rev. Jeremiah Wright. The Christianity of this church 'cuts the mustard' with the a-religious and irreligious analysts - and some Christians. It appears to many, however, as no more than a throw off, of Nation of Islam and one, then morphed into a collective, BLT/Marxist-Christian Church but indistinguishable from NOL, in basic dogmatic, anti-white/Christian/Jew/America/Israel hate . Obama tells us this Church - thanks to Rev. Wright - was a comfortable fit for his beliefs . )

"Could so many Americans really be that dumb, uninformed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?" Yes, they could be; but just not those you imagine. You ARE right in that Obama IS tricky - and no doubt, exhausted. Reading TOTUS is a challenge; but we can count vacations and hours in a workday - and how many hours it takes to play a round of golf. . .and exercise with a basketball.

(And we know Obama's staff is seldom seen outside White House, 'during daylight'; and probably not - another working 'arm' - Leon Panetta, not seen often, anywhere.)

.

Posted by: catherine_t | August 21, 2010 2:41 AM | Report abuse

Yoki, this is not a random sample, but it's instructive.

LTL-CA

Posted by: Jim19 | August 21, 2010 2:55 AM | Report abuse

Oh I know it is self-selecting, LTL-CA, but still...

Posted by: Yoki | August 21, 2010 3:27 AM | Report abuse

Crumb: Can ya say it enough?
Response to leighwilliams from yesterday's request: Yes, permission grant. Just cite "Curmudgeon" or "Curmudgeon from the Achenblog" as the source.
Can ya say it enough?
I can post it frequently to help you...
Just sayin'
This ISN'T a private chat room. No matter what you and your buddies think ("Curmudgeon from the Achenblog").
I'm guessin' retirement must suck...

Posted by: dschalton | August 21, 2010 3:35 AM | Report abuse

Now see, that is just sad.

Posted by: Yoki | August 21, 2010 3:38 AM | Report abuse

Yeah....

LTL-CA

Posted by: Jim19 | August 21, 2010 4:00 AM | Report abuse

this column stuns me in its conflating of situations. and suggest to me that the author submits to terrorist infiltration wearing the mask of 'political correctness' whilst being abjectly blind to self-destruction.

....

practicing religion is not a function of geography (no matter what obowma;s distortion attempts to claim).

.,...

that religion, as well as baptist, roman catholic or buddist can prosper in america w/o a specific geographical plant.

...

zoning boards have ( for good or ill ) directed that (religious) structures can be, and shouldbe, located wehre they are appreciated.

....

at grouind zero, no monumnet to the atackers is reasonable, period. well, unless you think that the planes crashing into american exceptionalism was the welcome bandwagon of terrorist inflitration, capped off by a monumnet to their crime.

Posted by: fakedude2 | August 21, 2010 4:32 AM | Report abuse

this column stuns me in its conflating of situations. and suggest to me that the author submits to terrorist infiltration wearing the mask of 'political correctness' whilst being abjectly blind to self-destruction.

....

practicing a religion is not a function of geography (no matter what obowma;s distortion attempts to posit).

.,...

that religion, as well as baptist, roman catholic or buddist can prosper in america w/o a specific geographical plant.

...

zoning boards have ( for good or ill ) directed that (religious) structures can be, and shouldbe, located wehre they are appreciated.

....

at grouind zero, no monumnet to the atackers is reasonable, period. well, unless you think that the planes crashing into american exceptionalism was the welcome bandwagon of terrorist inflitration, capped off by a monumnet to their warfare.

Posted by: jiji1 | August 21, 2010 4:40 AM | Report abuse

this column stuns me in its conflating of situations. and suggest to me that the author submits to terrorist infiltration wearing the mask of 'political correctness' whilst being abjectly blind to self-destruction.

....

practicing a religion is not a function of geography (no matter what obowma;s distortion attempts to posit).

.,...

that religion, as well as baptist, roman catholic or buddist can prosper in america w/o a specific geographical plant.

...

zoning boards have ( for good or ill ) directed that (religious) structures can be, and shouldbe, located wehre they are appreciated.

....

at grouind zero, no monumnet to the atackers is reasonable, period. well, unless you think that the planes crashing into american exceptionalism was the welcome bandwagon of terrorist inflitration, capped off by a monumnet to their warfare.

Posted by: jiji1 | August 21, 2010 4:40 AM | Report abuse

This blog needs more bears, but bear related news will do.
http://wcco.com/local/bear.head.lake.2.1871262.html

Headed to Tampa today. Is it too much to hope for a new mini kit?

Later gators.

Posted by: frostbitten1 | August 21, 2010 6:21 AM | Report abuse

Hoping for a new kit soon. Morning folks. Chilly here. 50!

Posted by: baldinho | August 21, 2010 7:13 AM | Report abuse

Ahhh, same old same old. Some great cut and paste arguments:

"Why don't all the mudlims march in protest of the attackers?"

They do, but the people that think they all hate us ignore this.

"Why don't all the mudlims strongly speak out against the evils of islam?"

If they did, you would probably believe them as much as you believe Obama's birth certificate.

"What about the polls that said 33% of Americans think the US government took down the WTC? Why don't you liberals talk about that?"

Uh, I don't think there were any polls that said that. I do remember there were some polls that had a pretty significant percentage that did.... and I bet there were a lot of folks that said the exact same thing they are saying now. I bet you just chose to ignore it then.

One other thing: a lot of the folks that think all mudlims are agin us and the cultural center is a "monument to the attackers" ALSO believed that the US government was behind the WTC center. A lot of those same people don't believe in the moon landing and believe in the UN-Mexico-Canada superhighway. They are one and the same. They are general idiots.

Posted by: baldinho | August 21, 2010 7:20 AM | Report abuse

I've been praying for a mini-kit or even just a link to Joel's gulf oil article since about 7 am yesterday. Why has our Joel forsaken us?

Posted by: yellojkt | August 21, 2010 7:30 AM | Report abuse

Ahh, wikipedia. Yep, nobody talks about the dopes that think the US took down the towers. Nobody except those courageous souls like Glenn Beck....... and the Washington Post..... and National Geographic..... etc.

p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

Posted by: baldinho | August 21, 2010 7:33 AM | Report abuse

For the third time I've made the Celebritology notable reader comments:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/celebritology/2010/08/celebritology_weekend_madonna.html?wprss=celebritology

Scroll down to the very very bottom or read it in the Style section.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 21, 2010 7:37 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, frosti, baldinho and yello!

I just finished reading Joel's Gov/BP alliance piece on Dead ? Macondo. Expecting a mini-kit soon myself.
Hoping.
Praying.
Begging.

Busy day today as my man comes home after ten days on the road. Have a good one all!

Posted by: talitha1 | August 21, 2010 7:48 AM | Report abuse

Oh Joel, your just so much smarter than the rest of Americans.... Pull your head out of your backside and give us a smile!

Posted by: 2010Rout | August 21, 2010 8:22 AM | Report abuse

One interesting theme running through so many of these hostile comments is the assumption that Joel is attacking Republicans. Such critics are accepting as a given something Joel has never claimed - that those who believe Obama is a Muslim are, by definition, his political enemies.

This, to me, is very telling. It confirms what I suspected earlier. To many, the truth of the assertion doesn't matter nearly as much as the implied smear against the President.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 21, 2010 8:41 AM | Report abuse

Jeepers 2010Rout. I fear you are exhibit A of what's wrong with political discourse. Your attack makes no sense. Joel isn't asserting he is smarter that "the rest of Americans." Just people who say blatantly false things. But on some level you knew that, right? But you don't care, because the important thing is that you got to say something nasty.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 21, 2010 8:44 AM | Report abuse

Baldinho inexplicably said: "Uh, I don't think there were any polls that said that. I do remember there were some polls that had a pretty significant percentage that did.... and I bet there were a lot of folks that said the exact same thing they are saying now. I bet you just chose to ignore it then..."

Here is an article by Michael Powell of the Washington Post (sourced from your own wikipedia link) who wrote about the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, though there is little mention of "numbskulls and people being goofy":

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003250424_911conspire09.html

"...36 percent suspicious

A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon.

Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act...."

Here is the poll:

http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll

Read the contents of the story, and compare that with the reaction from Achenbach here. For the record, I am not one in the "Obama is a Muslim" camp, nor am I in the "Obama is a Kenyan national" camp. I am actually in the "Obama is the most incompetent bungler ever to disgrace the White House" camp, and think that his vaunted communication skills are more hype than bite, seeing how he has mangled so many opportunities to connect with the American people. That being said, the objective person will note that the 9/11 conspiracy theorists were given MUCH more respect by the media than current nutroots are with Obama in office. The problem is the same as it was with Bush - there is a fundamental disconnect between the people and the Federal Government. They doubt the veracity of their elected officials, and it either manifests itself in "Obama is a Muslim/Chinese operative" or "Bush is an idiot who just happened to execute the greatest con job in the history of the world". It is all about trust in government. This is what is lacking. Add to this the recent Journolist revelations, and what you have is a public that doesn't know what to believe, or who to believe. Conspiracies thrive in this environment. You know who you can thank for that don't you? Start at the Post, work your way over to the NYTimes then over to network news...it all starts with them.

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 8:54 AM | Report abuse

hello friends: long time no blog. been kind of busy. must say this is all rather stunning. hang in there, mr. joel.

sometimes i am dismayed to see such hatred on display, but i have been convinced that the extremity we see all around us today is the best evidence that some folks know that their time is over. i understand their despair. perhaps their children, or maybe their grandchildren, will finally get it.

Posted by: butlerguy | August 21, 2010 9:22 AM | Report abuse

I was born in Kentucky but moved early on to AZ. Neither state is very tolerant of minorities. I have since moved on to NY state, up in the mountains. Now, I have friends of many faiths and I have to tell you all that in every single case wherein somebody has put the screws to me, that person claimed to be a "good Christian", whereas not once has a Muslim caused me the slightest harm. Accordingly I have to say that in my experience Christians are the real threat. It was, after all, a Christian who dropped the nuclear bomb on a city filled with women, children and American POWs. It was Christians who built the death camps for the Jews. Now it's the Jews bombing Gazans trapped in their own death camp. So by and large I have to say religious types are not very nice people, especially YHWHists. Are Americans as stupid as our leaders in government can make us? heck yeah! The so-called news industry feeds us crap and calls it information, but when you look internationally you find that lo and behold, most of the world gets real news and most of the world is intelligent enough to understand the implications of, for instance, America invading two countries and killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims for the crime of being in the way of our oil companies. It looks a heck of a lot like America is at war with Islam.

Posted by: wshirley | August 21, 2010 9:27 AM | Report abuse

Wrong RD Padouk - Achenbach's own words: "It's also dismaying that so many Americans are opposed to the mosque near Ground Zero. In America you can worship wherever you want, regardless of religious belief. We protect religious minorities here. This isn't merely the law: It's a core value. This goes back to the Pilgrims, I seem to recall. The backers of the mosques are the good guys, the ones who preach tolerance. There should be no hedging on this at all from American leaders: If we can't allow a mosque in lower Manhattan we might as well close shop for good and turn out the lights."

This is a straw man argument. Achenbach and his ilk are promoting the nuts in order to support their own straw man argument - that this is about religious freedom. It is NOT about religious freedom - it is about the LOCATION of the mosque. The same dialogue would be happening if the "Sons of the Confederate Veterans" were planning to build a memorial to fallen Confederate veterans near the birth home of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Even though the sons of Confederate veterans would have the right to buy private property and build where they choose, where is the wisdom in doing it so close to a place that is near and dear to hearts of Americans, and that would be a constant reminder of the pain of that chapter in American history? Those who protest that would be right. Sensitive and logical people know this. The media however is promoting this falsely, which is in line with the arguments put forth by Obungler himself. Laws suddenly matter - something that didn't matter to Oblunder before he opened his mouth to criticize a police officer for arresting a black man. Face it - the media would be on the opposing side of the issue had we been dealing with blacks and whites as opposed to Muslims and Americans.

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

w(don't call me"shirley said: "Christians are the real threat. It was, after all, a Christian who dropped the nuclear bomb on a city filled with women, children and American POWs..."

Uh oh - here come the defenders of our Constitutional right to religious freedom, ready to turn on the Christians for opposing mosque building. Isn't straw man logic fun?

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 9:32 AM | Report abuse

That there are numbskulls who believe the government aided in the destruction of the WTC does not vindicate numbskulls who believe Obama is a Muslim, secret or otherwise.

That poll was taken in 2006 near the nadir of Bush's popularity. Between 2001 and 2006, the government was found to have been lying about the existence of weapons of mass destruction, the nature of our 'enhanced interrogation' i.e. torture program, and even the events surrounding the death of Pat Tillman.

Supplemented with the evidence that there were multiple, if vague, warning that al Qaeda was up to something that involved hijacking and American targets, some people could be led to believe the government knew more than has been revealed and did nothing. Couple them with people who believe members of the Bush Administration were looking for a casus belli for an attack on Iraq (and they were) and the seeds of a conspiracy theory are born.

The existence of one implausible theory does not justify the acceptance of an independent implausible theory. Pointing out that there are idiots on the left does not erase any idiocy on the right.

We should and do ridicule and refute all idiots. Rosie O'Donnell's razor-thin credibility took a big hit from her trafficking in Truther theories.

Politicians who pander to people's prejudices with weaselly worded disingenuous inquiries are feeding a distasteful demagoguery which should be called out and disavowed.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 21, 2010 9:33 AM | Report abuse

Achinblockhead would serve the country better if he were to comment on an issue which TRULY questions the intellectual capacity of American voters - why Jersey Shore's ratings continue to rise...

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 9:41 AM | Report abuse

Glenn Beck is planning a massive Tea Party rally on the anniversary of the MLK 'I Have A Dream' speech. He has a right to, but his motives are far less pure than a group of civic-minded individuals wanting to put a cultural center on an abandoned piece of property in a part of a city which could use some economic development.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 21, 2010 9:41 AM | Report abuse

yellojkt said: "The existence of one implausible theory does not justify the acceptance of an independent implausible theory. Pointing out that there are idiots on the left does not erase any idiocy on the right.

We should and do ridicule and refute all idiots. Rosie O'Donnell's razor-thin credibility took a big hit from her trafficking in Truther theories.

Politicians who pander to people's prejudices with weaselly worded disingenuous inquiries are feeding a distasteful demagoguery which should be called out and disavowed.."


You are exactly right - but this should be exercised WHEREVER nuts exist. The problem is that the media has abandoned their own constitutional protection and has chosen sides. They paint one side with the broad brush of lunacy, while the other side is promoted as thoughtful and worthy of deeper inspection. If they had just done their job and presented the facts, they would continue to provide an invaluable resource, not just for finding the truth, but to push the fringe elements farther towards the edges. Instead, things like this Journolist fiasco have all but cemented the notion that the media is leftist, they are firmly in the Obama camp to the point that they will shape the news to benefit their man, and that they will simply be more careful in letting their true feelings be known. Need proof that the media does not intend to change? Ezra Klein - still employed by the Post. Dave Weigel? Cut loose from the Post, only to reappear at another Post owned company (Salon I believe). In the meantime, the people are left to fend for themselves, not knowing who is telling the truth. Ultimately, the fact that so many believe Obungler is a Muslim can be blamed on two simple causes: 1) He is not a good communicator, and has not connected with the American people in a meaningful way and 2) the media has failed to preserve any modicum of journalistic integrity which would act as a bulwark against the proliferation of conspiracy theories - both left and right leaning. This is a fabricated crisis, and this President poured fuel on the fire by making this about religious freedom instead of common sense.

The sooner we demand factual reporting by the media, and the sooner we demand more from our politicians on both sides, the sooner the dialogue between Americans will become more civil. Until then, it seems to be every man for himself. Only those that can skillfully maneuver around the BS will be able to maintain any common sense...remember, there is currently no law prohibiting nuts from voting.

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 9:53 AM | Report abuse

New Kit.

It's about Rush Limbaugh so I'm not expecting any raising of the discourse level. I should be more careful about what I pray for.

Posted by: yellojkt | August 21, 2010 10:20 AM | Report abuse

You mischaracterize the dissent....

Everyone knows that Freedon of Religion is guaranteed by the Constitution and people not in favor of the Mosque, like Harry Reid and Howard Dean do not propose to deny Muslims the rights under the Constitution.. I am suprised you did not label people that do not agree with you racists as liberals always do.. Instead you chose to call them ignorant, another term used by liberals who cant debate and issue.. The question is, is Ground Zero a proper place to put a mosque, particularly the name used for the project.. Cordoba House... (google the meaning liberals)

Liberals are so concerned about offending people.. What about the families of the 3000 who died as a result of Muslim extremeism.. Is it offensive to put a mosque in the place where Muslim extremists killed 3000 people? 70% of Americans think it is...

To frame the argument in the Constitution, which is hated by the progressive movement and Obama because it is an impediment to imposing a soft tyrany on America (google Alexis de Tocqueville liberals) is a straw man argument at best...

Why not cut out the mischaracterization of the argument and address it head on.. Otherwise you become what you complain about... Not being trusted by the American public because you put politics before facts...


Posted by: 2010Rout | August 21, 2010 10:22 AM | Report abuse

No, it isn't like a Confederate Veteran's Memorial. It's more like a Southern Hospitality Center. Just as all Southerners are not Confederate Sympathizers neither are all Muslims terrorist sympathizers, and certainly not terrorists.

And, as Joel points out, these Muslims, in particular, are the good guys.

So no, at some point bigotry under the guise of "sensitivity" isn't a justification.

One argument against desegregation of schools used to be that parents just didn't want their sensitive young white daughters to be forced to sit next to scary black people. Sorry. Sometimes supporting Constitutional rights means pushing people out of their comfort zone.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 21, 2010 11:34 AM | Report abuse

Re: " ....famously attended a Christian church led by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whom no one would take for a Muslim."

And, IMHO, damned few would take for a Christian.

Posted by: waltonr1 | August 21, 2010 11:54 AM | Report abuse

"Are Americans total numbskulls?"

Reading through the comments here and considering who we currently have in the White House....YES.

That poll is an attempt to paint those that disagree with Obama's policies in a negative light.

Let's forget about his religion and concentrate on the utter failure of his economic policies as a start.

Posted by: checksurshorts | August 21, 2010 12:03 PM | Report abuse

"People assume, as the starting point on any issue, that they're being lied to. Maybe they want to believe that because it offers an explanation, of sorts, for why the world isn't the way we think it ought to be."

In listening and dealing with politicians it is usually safer to assume they are lying rather than telling the truth...if you look at the track record of anything to do with spending, information,facts etc. politicians are generally not telling the truth. When they are talking about spending our money they always spend more of it than they say they will...if they are talking about seeing a bill up for vote they say you must pass it before you can find out what it says. We should be about telling the truth and sharing facts when talking about such large sums of money and important legislation rather than saying oh man this ended up costing a lot more than we thought and sorry we cant tell you how this is going to effect you until it becomes law.
The sad history of many politicians has led much of the american public to these assumptions. They have made their bed over the years and today's politicians get to lie in it...for better or for worse.

Posted by: michael_brooke | August 21, 2010 12:40 PM | Report abuse

And media companies in America wonder why print is going out of business. Joel and his ilk have lost touch with their audience. When journalists can stop calling American citizens "...dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?," perhaps their readership will increase. This kind of elitest mentality is a scourge in our society. Perhaps when we "dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy" citizens take back our country and our education system, people like Joel will fall even further into obscurity. At best a blogger on the Internet.

How about us "dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy" citizens stop buying print media and products from their big corporate sponsors who espouse these un-American beliefs. When we all work together we can fix the left biased journalism hacks we have let take over the media.

Joel forgets to let everyone know that he personally knows the President and his core beliefs. That statement is about as gullable as it gets. His opinion is just a reverberation of message that Axelrod/Jarret/Emanuel want Americans to hear. The facts about President Obama's past are 180 degrees from this writer's opinion. He fails to deliver on the facts and disect each one on it's merit. Perhaps a little more thought on Joel's part might make for a more interesting read. The number of likes/recommends for this writer's opinion are definitely encouraging and indicative of WaPo's level of readership.

Posted by: racooper3FL | August 21, 2010 1:14 PM | Report abuse

RDPadouk said: No, it isn't like a Confederate Veteran's Memorial. It's more like a Southern Hospitality Center. Just as all Southerners are not Confederate Sympathizers neither are all Muslims terrorist sympathizers, and certainly not terrorists.

And, as Joel points out, these Muslims, in particular, are the good guys.

So no, at some point bigotry under the guise of "sensitivity" isn't a justification.

One argument against desegregation of schools used to be that parents just didn't want their sensitive young white daughters to be forced to sit next to scary black people. Sorry. Sometimes supporting Constitutional rights means pushing people out of their comfort zone..."


Nice try, but you have it all wrong. You continue to use the same straw man argument. You are hell bent on making this about constitutional rights, when the majority of opposition to this mosque relates to its location. Again, the Sons of Confederate Veterans putting up an office next to MLKs birth home or something like that would not paint all Southerners in a negative light, but it WOULD be considered offensive by those of color, considering the history. This is about sensitivity, something liberals are constantly harping on and on about. You fail to ask why - with SO much opposition to the location, including from MANY democrats - that this imam is insisting on putting this structure here? Why would one who is attempting to bring understanding and dialogue is tone deaf to the offensive nature of their undertaking? I have my suspicions. As for the bogus claim that he has been shown to be "one of the good guys" this is laughable, given his comments about the US being partly responsible for 9/11 (justification for the act), given his ties to Muslim Brotherhood, and given his refusal to call Hamas a terrorist organization (something Chuck Schumer even managed to get right). I know why Obama and the rest of the fringe left want to make this about religious freedom - politics. It's about egging on fringe elements in order to paint the entire movement as fringe. This is the oldest trick in the book. What we have are agendas - the imam's and Obama's/media's/leftists. That much is crystal clear.

Posted by: ihatethepost1 | August 21, 2010 2:33 PM | Report abuse

"Are Americans total numbskulls?"

It depends.

Compared to brain surgeons and rocket scientists, yes.

Compared to Wapo writers, no.

Hope this helps aswer today's rhetorical query.

:D

Posted by: deadmanwalking | August 21, 2010 3:11 PM | Report abuse

How can anyone know what is in another person's heart? When someone prays, who can tell what diety they are praying to. Do you really assume because he does not get down on his prayer rug facing East that he is praying to a Christian GOD? NO ONE can know or assume that. The confusion is magnified when you know that in the cult of islam followers are encouraged to lie, cheat, steal and kill non-muslims. Finally - you KNEW all of this during the campaign - and you STILL voted for him. Endure then purge him.

Posted by: IQ168 | August 21, 2010 3:26 PM | Report abuse

What I write is not rocket science. It's been thought and done before by many better than I.

Good knows no color and no religion. You see it expressed by some people everywhere, regardless of what religion they declare themselves to be or not be. If you are really awesome, you'll see it expressed by everyone, everywhere and you will actually be a positive influence, bringing out more good that is latent. And your life will be safer and richer for it.

The ruling class thinks its in their best interest to keep the masses ignorant, controllable like the chickens laying eggs in their cages.

Unfortunately it's dangerous and makes everyone poorer, even them. There is no richness or efficiency in keeping your foot on your brother's head. It's not about you vs me, it's about bringing out what's latent and synergy.

Education, morality, ethics, responsibility, community are the panacea that create synergy, uncover abundance and security. We have no excuse for our ignorance. We have all the tools and resources to distribute useful knowledge and wisdom if we would only use them.

A man is judged every moment by how he rolls up his sleeve, not what he wears on it.

Posted by: glassr1 | August 21, 2010 4:13 PM | Report abuse

ihatethepost1 - No, I stand by my words. The Constitution protects certain minority rights even if it annoys and upsets certain members of the majority. Heck, I would even support the right of the confederate memorial next to MLK if only to make the point that the protection of rights trumps making people uncomfortable.

And if the people in this "Mosque" are known dangers to America, then we should arrest them. Otherwise, its just a matter of free speech.

See, I don't fear dissent. I'm not threatened by people with radically different points of view living close to me. Why are you?

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 21, 2010 4:54 PM | Report abuse

Please correct me if I am wrong on this but didn't Obama demand that Israel cease building Jewish settlements on their own land in order to appease the Palestinians?

Posted by: AG52 | August 21, 2010 5:08 PM | Report abuse

AG52 - The thing is the question of who "owns" this occupied territory is a muddled and complex one. As to whether opposing these settlements is "appeasement" or not is, again, a matter of debate. But I fail to see what Obama's position on this is relevant. If you are suggesting that this implies Obama is a Mulsim, then, yes, you are wrong.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 21, 2010 5:17 PM | Report abuse

Let me be clear - ihatethepost1 - I believe in the rule of law. If the "Mosque" and the people who might occupy it, are not in violation of the law, then I have no problem with it. The same would go for the example you give, and any other example that does not violate the law.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 21, 2010 5:21 PM | Report abuse

Are 20% of Americans numbskulls?
Yes
The 20% that identify themselves as liberals.

Posted by: wwrd58 | August 21, 2010 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Would you like a "snap" wwrd58, or is a simple "you go girl" sufficient?

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 21, 2010 7:53 PM | Report abuse

Achenbach:
"Could so many Americans really be that dumb, ill-informed, paranoid, gullible and goofy?"

***************

They could be. Or maybe Americans are just skeptical because the president keeps damaging his credibility with his endless fibs and exaggerations and demagogy. Who is to say, really. I know who. Joel Achenbach. Which is why I'm glad you sit up there on your perch, a blog a WaPo. Yes, a blog at a great big national newspaper, one of the leading media outlets in the U.S. - enough of this garbage about how obscure you are. Up there on your Mt. Olympus-like perch, passing judgement on the people. I know that one day your analysis and counsel will inspire a great awakening. A spectacular renaissance of morality, fraternity and generosity that will sweep across the land and we shall see erstwhile enemies tearfully embrace and all of our prejudices and petty preoccupations and obsessions will fall away and a clarion note of harmony shall ring triumphantly through every school and church and mosque and workplace.
It is all within the scope of your vision and within your power, Joel.

Posted by: kreminitly | August 21, 2010 7:59 PM | Report abuse

Polling in the 21st century is a mostly useless activity performed by organizations to support and/or oppose some agenda. Here are a few reasons why: no one is every held accountable for what they say to the pollster; how the survey is written has everything to do with its eventual result; who gets surveyed contributes greatly to the results; the relative veracity of the polling agency should always be in question.
All I can say to polling zealots is "Caveat emptor".

Posted by: simple4u | August 21, 2010 8:09 PM | Report abuse

Now what do you suppose would happen if *atheists* wanted to build a center near Ground Zero? What if *atheists* bought billboards and placards on the sides of buses ridiculing Jews, Christians and Muslims who supposedly worship the same God?

Posted by: znmeb | August 22, 2010 2:55 AM | Report abuse

So, we are numskulls, huh? And Mr. Achenbach is "smarter than anyone else in the room." My quarrel isn't with Obama...I don't know what he is. What I really despise is not so much politicians who disagree with me, as the habit that folks like Achenbach have of implying that that conservatives are stupid and intolerant. How could anyone even think that someone whose father was a Muslim, went to a Muslim school, and says things like "America is not a Christian nation" might be a Muslim at least under the skin? I think Americans are confused because they are not sure who Obama is, and because he doesn't come out too strongly for any religious tradition.

And then there is Achenbach's lament about those who are against a mosque on Ground Zero. How could anyone be so close-minded and intolerant as to be against the building of a Muslim religious building where Americans died at the hands of fanatical followers of that same faith? By people who won't even reveal their funding sources (like, the Saudis?).

Give me a royal break, Mr. Achenbach. I'm sorry that all readers don't have the courage to admit that what you are up to here is using a poll that is not that reliable to create a strawman--the conservative "numskull."

I ask you, will the real "numskull" please stand up?

Posted by: bobwrk | August 22, 2010 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Joel Achenblog belches out the typical arrogant, elitist, Washington Post “argument”, i.e., if you don't agree with me, then you must be stupid, and in doing so reveals his own shallowness. Joel, before you embarrass yourself any further in front of your colleagues, you need to learn a few basis rules of analysis and discussion.

Let’s start with the basics:

"If we are all thinking alike, then we are not all thinking." -- General George Patton

Now to specifics:

The point of view that Clueless Comrade Barry is Muslim is not at all irrational and is in truth supported by facts and evidence.

He was born to a Muslim father. Under Muslim tradition (and law) one who is born to a Muslim father is a Muslim, period. If he renounces Islam, he becomes an Apostate and must be killed. No Muslim leader has yet called upon the true believers to kill Comrade Barry, therefore, all Muslim leaders must – according to their own faith and law - believe that he is still a Muslim and simply lying, again, as Muslims are taught to do, about his conversion to Christianity in order to further the cause of Islam.

In further support of this theory, we have the absolutely bizarre spectacle of Clueless Comrade Barry bowing – deeply, subserviently and quite obviously – to King Abdul of Saudi Arabia; his lack of support for Israel, his lack of an effective response to Iran; his erroneous statements concerning the number of Muslims in the U.S.; his support of the ground zero mosque; his sniveling address “to the Muslim World” in Turkey; his pilgrimage to Pakistan which he undertook at a time when travel to this country was banned by the U.S. State Department; and his failure to join a Christian Church or attend services on a regular basis in Washington, D.C.

We also have the fact that, very un-Christian like, he has never lifted a finger to help his impoverished brother George still living in a roofless shanty-town shack in Kenya.

Whether you ultimately agree or disagree with this analysis, there is nothing irrational whatsoever about the conclusion that Clueless Comrade Barry was born a Muslim (a fact which he admits) and lied about his conversion to Christianity simply to further his political ambitions (a very plausible scenario to which, of course, he would not be able to confess).

Calling those who disagree with your point of view “numbskulls” rather than present mitigating facts and evidence and/or an alternative interpretation of the facts and evidence is not rational discussion. It’s cheerleading.

Posted by: PauvrePapillon | August 22, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

If Americans are misinformed who would be responsible? Hmmmm, having a hard time pinning that one down. Since all were given about El Presidente is from his own autobiographies which all members of the press apparently keep on their desks and use a primary refrence material. Get off your lazy butts and publish an un-authorized biography. (Ooops, just went and gave you an idea that will make you rich.)

Posted by: echosierra | August 22, 2010 12:49 PM | Report abuse

OK, let me keep this short if possible. To the left liberal elite (that's you on this site). Obama whether a Muslim or an Idiot doesn't matter, so get over your whining. It's his fault if the unwashed masses believe he is a Muslim, because he can't effectively convene his religion through his mouth! The unwashed masses have figured HIM out. He speaks but he can't lead, he can spin but it falls apart over time. Simply put, he is clueless! Now, I am fair so I will let you Libs try to defend him. One, where are the jobs? Two Obama care will not reduce America's debt. STOP, before you answer. The latest Dem memo already confirms this little problem and insurance rates are climbing (poor Dems) completely unexpected! Three, foreign policy is crap! Europe no longer talks to the white house. Hmm! wonder why. Four, economy he has been president for 19 months and nothing, let me say that again nothing has improved! Foreclosures at an all time high, bank closing at an all time high, Taxes at an all time high and more to come! Wow! How’s the hopey changey thing working out for the country? Oh, and by the way! Don’t give me that GOP is blocking his wonderful agenda. The Dems control the Congress and the Senate and can pass anything they want any time. They don’t need a SINGLE GOP vote to do it. Surprised, most Americans figured that out early when that piece of crap Obama care was crammed down our throats. Ok, your turn let’s here the spin!!!!!! Last I voted for the Royal couple, but never again.

Posted by: sandypogue | August 22, 2010 5:14 PM | Report abuse

PauvrePapillon - you are clearly a very intelligent person, for only a bright person could construct such an intricate structure. But here's an argument that follows the same structure.

Scientists know that dogs who are raised by people consider themselves the same species. Therefore, we can conclude, from science, that my dog thinks I'm a dog.

I have also observed that while my dog barks at cats, she never barks at other dogs or me. Therefore, I know that she thinks I am a dog.

Note that none of the other dogs bark at me either, hence, they must also think I am a dog. And yet, they were *not* raised by me. Further, note that I do not bark at these dogs. Indeed, I often pet them.

Therefore, we are forced to conclude, are we not, that I must actually be a dog.

Especially since I am certainly not a cat.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 22, 2010 5:24 PM | Report abuse

You know sandypugue, I must admire you. You are just stating that it doesn't much matter since you find him such a sucky President. I disagree vehemently, and feel that there are factual errors in what you say, but at least you are aren't hiding behind some spurious claim that Obama is a secret Muslim

Posted by: RD_Padouk | August 22, 2010 5:34 PM | Report abuse

And of course, Rush Limbaugh MUST PROVE he is a Christian. HE CANNOT DO THIS BECAUSE HE WORSHIPS SATAN.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 22, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

I think Joel Achenbach is clearly one of the one out of 5 stupid Americans. And a lot of the others posting here are in that group, too.

If you oppose Muslims, your stupid, but if you oppose Mormons, Catholics, Southern Baptists, Jahova's Witnesses, etc., you are enlightened. Give me a break. Liberals (Progressives) are the most bigoted group in America. And the most self righteous.
CED

Posted by: cahrlie259 | August 22, 2010 10:45 PM | Report abuse

20%of stupid non thinking people in anay society/community is worrying, especially in a country advanced and civilised like the US. But thanks, Joel, for drawing attention to the fact that 80% of Americans still have normal thinking faculties. We can only hope that the 20% are disenfranchised or would have become so by the next election. An excellent article and piece of logical, staright thinking, which I have passed on to my email friends world wide.

Posted by: tkymagble | August 23, 2010 4:07 AM | Report abuse

Yes, 1 out of 5 Americans are morons, since it is about 20% of the American population who self-identify as liberals. We are supposed to take Obama and the main-stream media's word that Obama is a Christian because he attended Jeremiah Wright's church? Are you kidding me? It is for that precise reason that we do not believe he is a true believing Christian. Jeremiah Wright's an America-hating preacher of the Black Theology movement, who also gave the "Jeremiah Wright Award" to Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan. To the degree that Obama truly followed Wright, is the degree to which Obama's Christianity is less and less believable. And yet we're stupid for thinking twice and analyzing the situation rationally, while you advocate mindlessly believing what you're told? Achenbach laments how "People assume, as the starting point on any issue, that they're being lied to." Well let's see we've been constantly lied to since this Administration came to power, ObamaCare, stimulus, FinReg... all the deception and Congressional strong-arming, lack of transparency (Obama just got rid of his "transparency czar" last week). And yet despite all this, this idiotic author insists that we blindly believe what we are told, and that if we don't WE are the numbskulls? I am very glad that the credibility of the left as a whole is evaporating before our eyes. Soon enough us 80% normal Americans will fully know the stupidity and deception of that moronic 20% of the population known as the liberal left.

Posted by: The-Capitalist | August 23, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Funny you have no capital.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 23, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

I meant, funny in theory.

Posted by: Jumper1 | August 23, 2010 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Mr. Achenbach's omission of the poll's internals has reinforced the notion among many that the major news outlets are shills for this administration and therefore cannot be trusted.

Mr. Achenbach's readership ought to know that 54% of Democrats no longer consider Obama Christian, that number up nine points from March, 2009, while 10% of Democrats also consider Obama a Muslim, per the same polling data.

Could Mr. Obama be 'convicted' of being Christian? is there enough evidence to support that? Perhaps he should try to convince us.

And finally, perhaps many Americans do not identify the former Muslim Jeremiah Wright's 'Black Liberation Theology' to be Christian.

Posted by: denmar143 | August 24, 2010 1:44 AM | Report abuse

Mr. Achenbach's omission of the poll's internals has reinforced the notion among many that the major news outlets are shills for this administration and therefore cannot be trusted.

Mr. Achenbach's readership ought to know that 54% of Democrats no longer consider Obama Christian, that number up nine points from March, 2009, while 10% of Democrats also consider Obama a Muslim, per the same polling data.

Could Mr. Obama be 'convicted' of being Christian? is there enough evidence to support that? Perhaps he should try to convince us.

And finally, perhaps many Americans do not identify the former Muslim Jeremiah Wright's 'Black Liberation Theology' to be Christian.

Posted by: denmar143 | August 24, 2010 1:44 AM | Report abuse

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