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Posted at 2:07 PM ET, 01/ 8/2011

Gabrielle Giffords [Updated]

By Joel Achenbach

[Update 5:53 p.m. EST: As you heard by now, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords made it through surgery and one doctor said he's optimistic she will recover. She's reportedly responsive to commands. A federal judge was killed, along with five others, including a 9-year-old child. The suspect has been identified in various media reports as Jared Loughner. The Smoking Gun has a photo from his My Space page. Andrew Sullivan has been live-blogging information about Loughner as it has emerged -- the gist being that this seems a classic case of mental illness, of psychosis. Not a political act. His YouTube video (so identified by the Post) is gibberish. Ken Rudin of NPR argues against jumping to conclusions. Paul Krugman blames the right-wingers. Gary Hart blames inflammatory rhetoric.

Didn't this story just break a few hours ago? Repeating myself: It's a little soon to draw broad lessons about why this guy did it, or what it says about our society or political culture.

--

From earlier today:

Awful news about Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who was shot and, according to NPR, killed [update 3:15: NPR has now hedged that] along with six other people during a political appearance at a Safeway grocery store in Tucson. [Note: There are conflicting reports here and no official public confirmation on any of this -- beware the virus of bad information when a big story breaks.] [Update from NYTimes: "Even though NPR and CNN reported that she had been killed, Darci Slater, a hospital spokeswoman, said that Ms. Giffords was in surgery."]

[From the Arizona Republic: "Arizona state Sen. Linda Lopez, who is at University Medical Center in Tucson, said she spoke to Giffords' parents and that they said she is in the emergency room undergoing surgery and is in very serious condition. But conflicting reports abound: CNN, FOX and NPR news, as well as KOVA-TV in Tucson, report that the congresswoman is dead; but MSNBC interviewed the Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik and he said as of 12:25 p.m., she was still alive."]


Several others are wounded. Reports are sketchy and preliminary.

Suspect in custody, no known motive. Could be random but doesn't sound like it given that she was holding an event with constituents. It sounds like an assassination attempt. Too early to say what this is about.

FYI, via Dailykos commenters: Giffords was one of the 20 Democrats who were elected in 2008 and voted for health care reform and were then targeted for defeat by Sarah Palin in a "takebackthe20" campaign that included a map showing each congressional district in cross-hairs -- as in a gunsight. Rather incendiary. See here.

[Update: I agree with the commenters who argue for waiting until we have more facts -- make that ANY facts -- before drawing larger lessons here, or assigning blame, or connecting dots. I wasn't trying to throw gasoline on the fire with the link to the takebackthe20 campaign. Everyone in this country needs to take a deep breath, cool down. Now, for example, would be a good time to think about, and, if you're so inclined, pray for the innocent people gunned down today -- a congresswoman meeting her constituents, which is supposed to be a Norman Rockwell moment.]

[Here's a story about the romance of Giffords and astronaut Mark Kelly. According to NasaWatch, Kelly is commander of one of an upcoming shuttle mission (how many more are there??) and his brother is currently on orbit in the International Space Station.]

By Joel Achenbach  | January 8, 2011; 2:07 PM ET
 
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Comments

CNN, in discussion with a friend of the Congresswoman and a local newspaper employee, reporting there had been threats against her. :-(

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 2:30 PM | Report abuse

It's all fun & games until somebody loses a life.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 2:33 PM | Report abuse

As of 2:30 eastern, it's been reported that Rep Giffords is alive...

Posted by: csmith2 | January 8, 2011 2:35 PM | Report abuse

Let's wait for more details to come out about the circumstances and the arrested suspect rather than jump to conclusion. Could be a wide range of possible circumstances and motives.

Posted by: vuac | January 8, 2011 2:36 PM | Report abuse

And of course, in the fog of news, now there are conflicting reports regarding Rep. Giffords...

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 2:37 PM | Report abuse

The link to "the crosshairs" isn't working.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 2:42 PM | Report abuse

CNN also reported that she'd died. But yeah, in a big story, bad information takes root really fast and when you have anonymous sources confirming a death you have to see that as not really confirmation.

Posted by: joelache | January 8, 2011 2:42 PM | Report abuse

Lord, we don't want to go there!

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Palin's incendiary rhetoric has a real cost: other people's lives. But of course she'll issue some kind of statement to excuse herself from any responsibility.

Posted by: gce1356 | January 8, 2011 2:52 PM | Report abuse

I have to say that I'm rather fond of this comment on Felicia Sonmez' blog piece at "44":

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The shooter was a kid of less than twenty, according to early reports. Motive still unknown, etc.

He may have been a right-wing whacko who thought she was too liberal, he may have been a left-wing wacko who thought she wasn't liberal enough.

He could even be a 'banger trying to prove himself and just noticed the crowd out looking for a target or it could have been a robbery gone bad.

But then, in partisan minds no facts available is an excellent reason to invent them.

You guys are so cute... ;-)

Posted by: deadmanwalking | January 8, 2011 2:18 PM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html?hpid=topnews

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 2:55 PM | Report abuse

MSNBC reporting she very narrowly defeated a Tea Party candidate in Nov., in one of the last contests to be called.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 2:57 PM | Report abuse

The Washington Post and this radical leftist blogger blaming Sarah Palin for the shooting is despicable.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 3:02 PM | Report abuse

It is not surprising the Washington post is obtaining their news information from the far left Daily KOS.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 3:06 PM | Report abuse

This act is heinous. It goes against everything our constitution represents. I'm a Conservative but there is no place in our political system for this.
The death penalty is too lenient for this waste of human skin. Chain this piece of $h!t to stakes overlying a hill of fire ants.
An armed citizen in the crowd would have limited the damage done by this miscreant.

Posted by: BudTuglie | January 8, 2011 3:07 PM | Report abuse

A hospital PIO says Giffords is in surgery and in critical condition; there will be a press conference in 20-some minutes, at 3:30 EST, 1:30 Tucson time.

9 people taken to that hospital; 3 or more taken elsewhere, it seems.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 3:08 PM | Report abuse

I believe we are on the home page.

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 3:09 PM | Report abuse

No surprise, we have a Front Page Alert...

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Aaaahhh - Front page link here. Should prove stimulating!

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 3:11 PM | Report abuse

NBC says another of the victims was a federal judge.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 3:11 PM | Report abuse

This shooting is not surprising judging by the vitriol, incendiary and hateful politics of the lunatics on the extremist right.

Since Obama won the presidency with close to 60% of the VOTES, the GOP has fomented anger and hated against DEMOCRATS and the media have facilitated the hate, now the repercussion is beginning to germinate and grow. I hope no one expressed shock because they signs have been there all along.

Posted by: dressypink | January 8, 2011 3:11 PM | Report abuse

Only NPR us saying the Congresswoman is dead. Let us hope they are wrong.

We do have to wait to hear the entire story because this is a shock and certainly troublesome. Even if the shooter was mentally ill which is probably the case, people this deeply troubled have to be spotted by their families and neighbors. The government can't and shouldn't intrude any more than they do but we as citizens really have to do our part.

What a terrible situation.

Posted by: LudditesLive | January 8, 2011 3:12 PM | Report abuse

So it would appear, pj. I'll keep checking this kit for updates, but early indications are that we may want to open the bunker pretty soon.

My thoughts go out to all of the victims and their families.

Posted by: -bia- | January 8, 2011 3:12 PM | Report abuse

Dancingrabbit, why don't you just mosey off somewhere else.

Jerkwad.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 3:13 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the hospital information, Mudge. That sounds solid.

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 3:13 PM | Report abuse

Stimulating is not the word I would choose Bob-S. I am watching on CNN, who keep switching to an Arizona affiliate station (KGUN) unfortunate call letters given the situation.

Sending mojo to all those injured and best thoughts to their loved ones.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 3:13 PM | Report abuse

Among many of the shocking aspects here is that Rep. Giffords is younger than most Boodlers...

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 3:18 PM | Report abuse

Jeez. Her husband is Capt. Mark Kelly, an astronaut who has flown on the space shuttle.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 3:22 PM | Report abuse

And another shocking aspect -- Rep. Giffords' brother-in-law is commanding the International Space Station at this moment, via MSNBC.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 3:23 PM | Report abuse

The Washington Post and this radical leftist blogger blaming Sarah Palin for the shooting is despicable.

Posted by: dancingrabbit |

~~~~

Sarah Palin was the one who posted on her own website a "targeted crossfire" of various Democratic Legislator's, suggesting that they should be taken out.

No one else in either Political Party has ever made such a grand hostile political gesture, except for Sarah Palin.

Not WAPO, Not a Democrat, or any Republic.

Just Sarah Palin and no one else, so get up off your high horse, except the truth for what it is.

Posted by: lcarter0311 | January 8, 2011 3:24 PM | Report abuse

When the public elects a foreigner for President..and this president wants to destroy the Constitution..and Democrats support him in his agenda..to change America to socialism. Events like this are bound to happen.

The left wants open borders to obtain votes to further their agenda.

The law of nations states a citizen is born from citizen parents..a nation should desire this. A nation cannot perpetuate its self unless citizens are born from citizens.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 3:25 PM | Report abuse

is sarah going to tweet on this now? how about pastor beck? you reap what you sow. crosshairs, and "don't retreat, reload", etc., etc. nice work. you have her blood on your hands.

Posted by: joeblow111 | January 8, 2011 3:26 PM | Report abuse

dressypink - Given your nom de plume, I'm surprised that you feel comfortable equating vitriol and incendiary & hateful politics with the extremist right. I've seen Code Pinksters work themselves into a frenzy, and it ain't pretty!

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 3:26 PM | Report abuse

is sarah going to tweet on this now? how about pastor beck? you reap what you sow. crosshairs, and "don't retreat, reload", etc., etc. nice work. you have her blood on your hands.

Posted by: joeblow111 | January 8, 2011 3:26 PM | Report abuse

Palin's incendiary rhetoric has a real cost: other people's lives. But of course she'll issue some kind of statement to excuse herself from any responsibility.
Posted by: gce1356 | January 8, 2011 2:52 PM

Knowing how hateful, the Arizona GOP and authorities have been since Obama got elected, it is likely THIS SHOOTER WILL GO THE SAME WAY OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD....

Posted by: dressypink | January 8, 2011 3:27 PM | Report abuse

The link to takebackthe20.com was working until about five minutes ago (as I type, it's about 2:25 CT). Now it links to SarahPac.org. While the link was working, three crosshair hot links in Arizona were active, but none of them to Congressman Giffords name. I wonder if they got the link disabled before I could click on it.

Posted by: NBAWatcher | January 8, 2011 3:27 PM | Report abuse

If you dilute the toxins sufficiently, no blame can be assigned.

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 8, 2011 3:28 PM | Report abuse

This is extremely sad and I pray that the congresswoman and the other people wounded,
survive this awful, cowardly act by some moron. However, it's too late for some of the people that have already died from this despicable act of violence. I do want to point out that anyone who doesn't think that the constant stream of virulent and hateful rhetoric which is continual spewed out from the mouths of the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sarh Palin on an almost daily basis aren't in someway responsible for this type of tragedy are living in a dream world. This constant hate speech about politicans and public servants needs to stop....the blood is on their hands, just as much as it is on the person that was pulling the trigger.

Posted by: MDT1 | January 8, 2011 3:30 PM | Report abuse

A search command on internetarchive.org brought up nothing and on waybackmachine.org, it linked to SarahPAC.org, just as the link in the article. Hmmm...what does it mean?

Posted by: NBAWatcher | January 8, 2011 3:32 PM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit -- "this is bound to happen" -- really, dude? are you drinking the tea and cleaning your guns right now while watching beck re-runs?

Posted by: joeblow111 | January 8, 2011 3:32 PM | Report abuse

"The law of nations states a citizen is born from citizen parents..a nation should desire this. A nation cannot perpetuate its self unless citizens are born from citizens."

I'm not sure that I'm aware of any science to support that contention. Why couldn't a nation perpetuate its self by replenishing the population with immigrants? (Actually, the U.S. has been doing that for decades.) And what's so great about perpetuation anyway? The "fertile crescent" is the cradle of civilization and all that, but you don't hear about a vast rush of people trying to move there.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 3:36 PM | Report abuse

NBC had a report that she was awake and talking as she was being wheeled into the operating room. Which is encouraging, to say the least. The earlier report was she was shot in the head at point blank range.

Up until today, Kelly was scheduled to be the commander of STS-134, the shuttle launch set for April 1. Here's his Wiki bio, which has the shooting in it already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_E._Kelly

Here's his offical NASA bio. He graduated from the merchant marine academy. I'm verklempt.

Became an A-6 pilot, flew 39 combat missions in Desert Storm. Attended Navy Test Pilot School down at Pax River, then worked at "Strike," the fighter test squadron at Pax in the Carrier Suitability Division, then became a test pilot instructor back at the test pilot school. In additional to A-6s, he flies F-18s.

This guy is REALLY good. I mean, seriously, seriously good. Most Navy astronauts (there have been nearly 90) go through the Test Pilot School, but not all become instructors there.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 3:37 PM | Report abuse

Why doesn't it surprise me that the liberal Washington Post would quote from the DailyKos for a reaction?

Posted by: RSaunders1 | January 8, 2011 3:37 PM | Report abuse

MSNBC reporting the chief Federal judge for that district was shot & killed in the attack.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 3:38 PM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit, it is your kind of hate mongering that has "directly" led to this senseless loss of life today in Arizona.

Extremists far right have turned our nation into a banana republic where elected officials are killed for their politics. And the media is providing a platform for them to spread their hate. GOP and the lunatics at False News, you now have blood on your hands.

Posted by: dressypink | January 8, 2011 3:38 PM | Report abuse

This is very sad. Hope some of the right-wingers who spew intolerance and "second amendment solutions" will tone down the rhetoric, no matter what the motivation of the shooter in this case.

Bob S, this is what worries me about the demonization of politicians and lies about their political views. Not fun and games at all - serious business.

Not surprising to me that Palin's inflammatory website has been cleansed already. Here's an article about it:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/03/24/2010-03-24_sarah_palin_aims_to_take_back_the_20_in_wake_of_health_care_reform.html

Posted by: seasea1 | January 8, 2011 3:39 PM | Report abuse

Our country has been living in fear and hate for the past years, and it continues. I'm sincerely praying that the Congresswoman and the victims of that shooting will pull through, and their families will not lose their love ones. This is not democracy. This is hate. May God have mercy on our souls.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 3:40 PM | Report abuse

I'm ignorant.

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 8, 2011 3:40 PM | Report abuse

His astronaut bio: http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/kellyme.html

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 3:40 PM | Report abuse

Dancingrabbit captured the tea party so succinctly

"When the public elects a foreigner for President..and this president wants to destroy the Constitution..and Democrats support him in his agenda..to change America to socialism. Events like this are bound to happen.

The left wants open borders to obtain votes to further their agenda.

The law of nations states a citizen is born from citizen parents..a nation should desire this. A nation cannot perpetuate its self unless citizens are born from citizens.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 3:25 PM"

you should be proud of yourselves. her blood is on your hands.

Posted by: joeblow111 | January 8, 2011 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Why doesn't it surprise me that the liberal Washington Post would quote from the DailyKos for a reaction?

Posted by: RSaunders1 | January 8, 2011 3:42 PM | Report abuse

A poster at Politics and Policy's story suggested that the comments section should be shut down. Some comments are very nasty.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 8, 2011 3:45 PM | Report abuse

The news that Congresswoman Giffords was awake and talking is encouraging. May it prove to be true.

And may takebackthe20.com have the courage to put their website back up the way it was. You know, stand behind your words, say what you mean and mean what you say, take personal responsibility, be a stand-up guy--all those cliches designed to set our hearts a-flutter.

Hang in, Congresswoman.

Posted by: NBAWatcher | January 8, 2011 3:46 PM | Report abuse

wow, what a brave tea bagger. shoot a defenseless woman in the back of the head. so brave.

Posted by: joeblow111 | January 8, 2011 3:49 PM | Report abuse

word -- she is expected to live.

Posted by: joeblow111 | January 8, 2011 3:49 PM | Report abuse

This is a political assassination attempt and must be treated with all seriousness. But I personally cannot trust GOP and their hate-dominated law enforcement agencies. If we leave the investigation in their hands, before tomorrow, this shooter can become an "illegal-alien" instead of FALSE NEWS addict that he is.

CIA and FBI should not only be chasing terrorists in Pakistan/Afghanistan/Yemen, they should begin here in the USA among far-right extremists and among the viewers of FALSE NEWS.

Posted by: dressypink | January 8, 2011 3:51 PM | Report abuse

Here's a link to the Palin map:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/sarah-palin-statement-shooting_n_806224.html

I'm praying for all involved in the shooting - maybe not for the shooter however. I'm not that good a Christian.

Posted by: badsneakers | January 8, 2011 3:52 PM | Report abuse

I will quote again from the Law of Nations..

A nation cannot perpetuate its self unless its citizens are born from citizens.

The Law of Nations: A natural born citizen is born from citizen parents.

George Washington: "prosecute all crimes against the Law of Nations.

It is a crime against the Law of Nations Obama is President and Congress does nothing.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 3:55 PM | Report abuse

When the crazy terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan commit terrorist murder, they and their clerics comes our boldly to claim responsibility for their despicable and heinous acts.

The terrorists on the far-right extremism of GOP and their co-conspirators in the FALSE NEWS, will not have the balls to claim responsibility of this senseless killing.

Let's wait for words from Beck, Rush, Hannity, Palin and their likes...

Posted by: dressypink | January 8, 2011 4:00 PM | Report abuse

Jared Laughner, 22, pronounced Lawfner, is the alleged shooter.

Dressypink, since a Cong. person, a federal judge, and several federal employees were shot, I'm sure there will be a VERY heavy FBI and Homeland Security presence; in fact, the feds have jurisdiction. I wouldn't worry about the parochial Arizona police problem you raised. And I'm sure the feds are rushing more people to the scene than you can shake a stick at. And I'm sure all of the resources in DC have been mobilized.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 4:01 PM | Report abuse

The shooter is evidently 22 years old, with a criminal past. Dr Peter Rhee, trauma director at the hospital, is now speaking.
10 patients
1 dead at the hospital
5 critical
5 operating room, undergoing surgery

The doctor is "very optimistic" about the Congresswoman's recover. She was shot in the head, bullet went through her brain. Surgery is completed.

The person who died at the hospital

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 8, 2011 4:03 PM | Report abuse

The doctor at the hospital is reporting 1 dead there, a young girl about 9 years old, and 10 injured/shot. Five are critical, including Gifford, and five are not critical. He said Gifford was shot in the head, the operation is over, and she is expected to recover.

18 people all together were shot (as of this point in time and the count so far.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 4:06 PM | Report abuse

The doctor who briefed the reporters said that the person who died was a child -- about 9 years old.

Posted by: rickoshea11 | January 8, 2011 4:06 PM | Report abuse

Per hospital news conference, the one dead person was a young girl, a child, good Lord...

Congresswoman Giffords is out of surgery and expected to survive.

I read somewhere today that Arizona has recently passed a gun law requiring no regulations of any kind on carrying a gun. No background check, no waiting period, no license. If this is true, I hope this incident causes a second look at such a crazy law.

Posted by: badsneakers | January 8, 2011 4:07 PM | Report abuse

Limbaugh sure will be stuttering and sputtering on Monday, as he screams "not me, not me, not me..."

Posted by: ners1507 | January 8, 2011 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Curmudgeon, I think you're wasting your time. dressypink & dancing rabbit are spiritual twins, and reason is not within their purview.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Sarah Palin has released a statement regarding the shooting.

Ms. Palin is one of the last voices we
need to hear from given her penchant for using gun language in her attacks on people who don't agree with her. The map she released last election with targets on Democratic Congressional areas is chilling whether or not the shooter was motivated by the rabid right wing gun rhetoric. And Palin should be praying that it isn't linked to him because her political career would come to a screeching halt.

Posted by: AverageJane | January 8, 2011 4:09 PM | Report abuse

I don't care what politics - if any - motivated this vicious piece of garbage. If Arizona has a death penalty, they should make good use of it.

Of course, all you liberals trashing conservatives here are opposed to the death penalty...

Posted by: gilbertbp | January 8, 2011 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Bob, dancing rabbit is certifiable.

Posted by: badsneakers | January 8, 2011 4:10 PM | Report abuse

This is a terrible event, and my thoughts and prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords and the other victims. However, I think that rushing to blame anyone at this point is premature; the facts still aren't known. Consider that as of 1611 EDT, CBS is reporting 4 dead; CNN is reporting 6 dead; and the doctor reported one dead. Too early, folks. Take a deep breath. Calm down. Mourn. Then when the facts are known place the blame where it belongs.

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 8, 2011 4:12 PM | Report abuse

I have to say I'm impressed with the Tuscon mayor (and police chief), refusing to speculate and properly imploring the media to appropriately assemble information before reporting anything.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 4:13 PM | Report abuse

gilbertbp - Any sentence which contains, "all of you [insert whatever]" is, for me, a flag that you are untrustworthy. All of you people who use phrases like that give me the heebie-jeebies.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 4:17 PM | Report abuse

"FYI, via Dailykos commenters: Giffords was one of the 20 Democrats who were elected in 2008 and voted for health care reform and were then targeted for defeat by Sarah Palin in a "takebackthe20" campaign that included a map showing each congressional district in cross-hairs -- as in a gunsight. Rather incendiary"

I have just witnessed a discussion board where Democrats were firing each other up to create a viral impression of this, and I see that the blog author propagates that propaganda.

What he does not mention is that Democrats themselves have created a targetted killing map: http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2636/democratkillingmap.jpg

I guess this won't show up in any blogs.

Posted by: NotADemocrat | January 8, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Achenbach, what are your theories as to why the level of vitriol is so high on this other WaPo blog?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html

With any luck, the FBI will be paying very serious housecalls to all those hate-filled wackos.

Posted by: Nosy_Parker | January 8, 2011 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Oh, Bob!

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Well, it showed up in this one.

[Redacted]

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 4:23 PM | Report abuse

While we do not yet know all the facts, including the shooter's motivation, I'm more than a little weary of the Tea Bagger's Nation's rush to blame liberals. Yesterday, someone tried to send an incendiary bomb to Secy. Napiltano-another Ariz. Democrat. Today, a Democratic congresswoman is wounded. AND A LITTLE BABY AND FED. JUDGE ARE MURDERED. In the 1960's three young, charismatic Democratic leaders were assinated. Right-wing wack-job McVey blows up the Murrah Federal Building. Excuse me, but I'm not seeing a pattern of assination attempts against Republicans. I am seeing Palin's cross-hairs and Angle's 2nd Amendment remedies"-two stupid human beings that are beyond contempt.

Posted by: BBear1 | January 8, 2011 4:24 PM | Report abuse

What I wonder about is why anyone would get immediately defensive about the shooter. Why would they?

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 4:25 PM | Report abuse

Praying for the Congresswoman and all injured in this attack.

Regardless of the exact motives of the perpetrator, isn't it crazy for some commenters to suggest (1) more guns in the crowd would have helped and (2) now the state needs to add to the violence with the death penalty (or as one self-described conservative suggested, death by red ants)?

I don't want our country turned even more into the OK Corral, where folks settle disputes by shootouts (and in a crowd at that), or a garrison state like Iran, one of the few nations which still executes its citizens.

Enough violence, for God's sake!

Posted by: tmginnova | January 8, 2011 4:28 PM | Report abuse

Achenbach, what are your theories as to why the level of vitriol is so high on this other WaPo blog?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html

With any luck, the FBI will be paying very serious housecalls to all those hate-filled wackos.

Posted by: Nosy_Parker | January 8, 2011 4:28 PM | Report abuse

Yes, shooting a Member of Congress or Federal judge or other federal employee is a federal crime and the FBI and U.S. Capitol Police, among others, will be heavily involved in this investigation. Prosecution will occur in Federal courts. I'm glad to hear that the local authorities are responding cautiously to this tragic situation and want to collect facts instead of repeating rumors.

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 4:28 PM | Report abuse

Tragic, just tragic ... and certainly not a time for speculation and hatespeak.
Saying prayers for all.

Posted by: talitha1 | January 8, 2011 4:30 PM | Report abuse

House Speaker John Boehner (R.Ohio) put out a statement saying: "I am horrified by the senseless attack on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords... An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve. Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society."

I think Boehner said it perfectly in his statement. Good for him. I hope he sticks with this argument in the coming days and shows some strength in doing so.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 4:31 PM | Report abuse

Sarah should go hunting with Dick Cheney...BLAM! Two down two to go!

I'm speechless because I've never been so angry at the hate and vitriol spewing from the incest-delivered, baccy-chawin', single digit IQ, pry my gun away, right wing nutcases. Please, grab your guns, go into the woods and join other the circle jerking 'patriots'.

Posted by: dialogue72 | January 8, 2011 4:32 PM | Report abuse

NotADemocrat, I looked at the map, and indeed the Democrats targeted several states for campaigning.
What does that have in common with a map with cross hairs placed on the districts of named Representatives? Not that we know yet of any connection between the shooter and this unfortunate map, but nevertheless, nobody has ever shot a state, to my knowledge.

Posted by: gmbka | January 8, 2011 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Prayers all around, and no politics need apply.

Posted by: chrisinwien | January 8, 2011 4:33 PM | Report abuse

"What I wonder about is why anyone would get immediately defensive about the shooter. Why would they?"

It is ok to blame Sarah Palin?

A nation cannot perpetuate its self unless citizens are born from citizens.

All republics in history have demised when massive unfettered illegal immigration was left uncontrolled.

In this country we have 12 million plus illegals...why? Obama is an inhabitant.he is not a natural born citizen. If he was born in Hawaii that does not make him a natural born citizen.

A nation cannot perpetuate its self unless citizens are born from citizens.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 4:35 PM | Report abuse

The victim was on MSNBC in March, and warned that the crosshairs and rhetoric would lead to violence. And she was right. Palin ignored this warning, and left the crosshairs on the website for 9 more months, with tweets prompting shoot and reload.

Brilliant.

To all you Palin supporters, did she pull the trigger? No. But do you truly think placing crosshairs on her opponents, and engaging in this kind of rhetoric is responsible? Clearly not.

Posted by: spynnal | January 8, 2011 4:35 PM | Report abuse

It's worth mentioning that the FBI has been looking after terrorist threats in the US for many years.

The Pima County Sheriff's department is quoted as reporting 6 people killed and 18 wounded. This is a disturbing number for our public life, including school board and county commission meetings, not to mention "town hall" meetings on subjects like immigration. One in Palm City, Florida got "angry and emotional" although it seems to have been reasonably civil and the Sun-Sentinel got some good quotes from participants.

I expect that public officials throughout the country will be thinking about security in the upcoming months.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 8, 2011 4:35 PM | Report abuse

One report I heard said he put a statement on his facebook page about today. Rather than speculate as to what caused him to murder, I'll let him tell me. I bet he does, and I know all that information will come out soon enough.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 4:35 PM | Report abuse

Bet Obama will give his news conference under the painting of Lincoln...

He is sending a message..Civil War.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 4:40 PM | Report abuse

"Yes, shooting a Member of Congress or Federal judge or other federal employee is a federal crime..."

Not only that, but it's decidedly rude, and displays a distinct lack of humor. I'm not a fan.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Obama: "if they bring a knife to the fight we will bring a gun"

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 4:44 PM | Report abuse

Hey dancing, wouldn't you appreciate if Obama did? He is the father of the GOP, is he not? Our greatest President?

Go away, troll.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 4:44 PM | Report abuse

dressypink and dialogue72

I guess you missed this article on Daily Kos on Thu Jan 06, 2011 regarding the congresswoman that was headlined:
My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!

By the way this article has now been taken down on the Daily Kos website.

Posted by: msmith440068 | January 8, 2011 4:46 PM | Report abuse

Lincoln was responsible for the slaughter of millions of people.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 4:46 PM | Report abuse

Joel, please get a block put on this moron.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 4:48 PM | Report abuse

John Paul Jones and I quote:

"The Congress should not give the President control of the army and navy. One day they will elect a President who will cut the throats of its citizens on some pretense."

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Such a tragedy. Let's hope people will refrain from the bickering and be supportive. But...I doubt it.

Posted by: MiddleofthePacific | January 8, 2011 4:54 PM | Report abuse

The first reports appear to have misspelled the shooter's name. I've posted what *appears* to be a Youtube vid he posted here:

http://24ahead.com/n/10307

I've cached all five vids from that channel in case they get taken down. If that video is from the shooter, his ideology is more that of a deranged libertarian extremist.

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | January 8, 2011 4:55 PM | Report abuse

There's no reason for Achenbach to be defensive about noting Sarah Palin's target map with the gunsights. On the contrary: it should be noted that while this information only appears on the Washington Post's website in this blog post, in the New York Times it's in the main news story.

"During the fall campaign, Sarah Palin, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate, posted a controversial map on her Facebook page depicting spots where Democrats were running for re-election; those Democrats were noted by crosshairs symbols like those seen through the scope of a gun. Ms. Giffords was among those on Ms. Palin’s map."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html

But the Washington Post passed by an obvious opportunity to note it:

"The up-and-coming lawmaker, known as a moderate Democrat who paid close attention to constituent concerns, had been singled out by Sarah Palin's SarahPac as one of the 20 Democrats on the ballot in November who represented states that supported Sen. John McCain for president in 2008. "It's time to take a stand," Palin's fundraising appeal said of Giffords and the other Democrats, who had all supported the health-care bill."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/08/AR2011010802422.html

The link Achenbach provided no longer appears to work, which is some evidence that Sarah Palin's people are quite aware of the connection between the target map, with its gunsight cross-hairs, and today's shootings.

Posted by: naiman | January 8, 2011 4:58 PM | Report abuse

No, 'mudge, no! This is exactly the sort of fresh opinion-airing we need to invigorate the place from time to time.

So, dancingrabbit, even if I grant you that blood-thirsty abolitionists were intentionally sending pellagra & malaria into the South for decades before the Unpleasantness Between the States, how can I move that onto Lincoln's tally? Even the most optimistic estimates of Lincoln's death-efficiency rating don't normally credit him with more than around one million kills. Do you have info that I can use to my advantage in the next fantasy death league?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 4:58 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, we can send WaPo complaints via the "Report abuse" option for each of his offensive post, requesting that the comment be removed and the poster blocked.

Posted by: Nosy_Parker | January 8, 2011 4:59 PM | Report abuse

I don't think dancingrabbit realizes he's posting on a blog where no one cares what he thinks.

Oh, and dancingrabbitbirtherperson, Obama was born in the United States. But, you already know that, you just keep hoping it's not true, don't ya.

Posted by: MiddleofthePacific | January 8, 2011 4:59 PM | Report abuse

From his YouTube page, he's an atheist, a flag burner and mentally ill.

So all you progs can stop soiling yourselves, Palin had nothing to do with it.

Posted by: NoDonkey | January 8, 2011 4:59 PM | Report abuse

It is rude, BobS. It shows decidedly bad manners and should be discouraged.

As I recall, it was fairly recently that assaulting a federal employee became a federal crime. Previously it was covered by state and local law.


Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 5:00 PM | Report abuse

"fantasy death league," that's a good one Bob!

Posted by: MiddleofthePacific | January 8, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

6 dead and 18 wounded from one attacker with one gun... hummmm. Another FN five-seven with a 20 or 30 rounds magazine maybe? Thank you the NRA. The NRA will probably issue a press release blaming the nine-year old, the judge and the Representant for not packing heat.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 8, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

NoDonkey is right. The shooter is mentally ill. Stop acting like raving maniacs blaming every politician and pundit who disagrees with you. Your language is as incendiary as you accuse Palin of doing.

Posted by: WashingtonDame | January 8, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

It's time to hold accountable those who demonize their political opponents for political and financial gain: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sue-the-Right-for-Inciting-Violence/142510232474218

Posted by: Streamheat | January 8, 2011 5:04 PM | Report abuse

So now that it's been established the shooter can't be blamed on the GOP, we shift to blame the NRA.

You progs are so predictable.

Innocent people are dead and progs do what they always do - hate Americans.

Any pretense will do.

Posted by: NoDonkey | January 8, 2011 5:05 PM | Report abuse

The alleged shooter is a homosexual.


Jared Loughner
Has worked at Child Protective Services
Studied at Pima Community College
Lives in Tucson, Arizona

Education and Work
Employers •
Child Protective Services

________________________________________
College •
Pima Community College

________________________________________
High School •
Mountain View High School
Class of 2006

Basic Information
About Jared
Love hunting trolls and children, I want to be a woman one day...

Most people just don’t seem to understand me, but I’m gonna prove to you all how wrong you are...

My favorite interest was reading, and I studied grammar. Conscience dreams were a great study in college!

Fools who don’t understand the law are bound to suffer under it!
________________________________________
Sex Male
________________________________________
Interested In Men

Jared only shares some profile information with everyone. If you know Jared, add him as a friend or send him a message.
Facebook © 2011 • English (US)

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Streamheat - Hey genius, there was nothing right wing about this guy, so go sell your silly little Facebook page elsewhere.

The way progs try to make political hay out of tragedy is revolting.

Posted by: NoDonkey | January 8, 2011 5:10 PM | Report abuse

Anyone who rails against Fox News.

Mosey on over to Daily Kos and you'll see the exact same nonsense pushed by the little rodent who runs that site and the progs on this page.

Mindless parrot progs.

Posted by: NoDonkey | January 8, 2011 5:17 PM | Report abuse

Pathetic liberal "journalists" already blaming Sarah Palin and the tea party and the poor dead people aren't even cold yet. Since Lee Oswald was a communist maybe we should tar and feather all liberals for Kennedy's assassination.

Posted by: kr1839 | January 8, 2011 5:20 PM | Report abuse

"I don't think dancingrabbit realizes he's posting on a blog where no one cares what he thinks.

Oh, and dancingrabbitbirtherperson, Obama was born in the United States. But, you already know that, you just keep hoping it's not true, don't ya."

A natural born citizen is born to citizen parents in the United States. Obama has a foreigner father.

Obama is not a natural born citizen. There is a difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 5:21 PM | Report abuse

NoDonkey - "Progs", really? That's so cute! You're one of our Canadian pals, aren't you, ya Newfie?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 5:22 PM | Report abuse

Sorry but I am not up on current political slang. What is a prog?

Posted by: orawh | January 8, 2011 5:22 PM | Report abuse

So, since Obama is not a proper citizen and therefore not really President, is it OK if I chalk all of the deaths in the ongoing conflicts up to Bush for purposes of the fantasy death league?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 5:27 PM | Report abuse

Prog: Someone who listens to Emerson Lake and Palmer with headphones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUclxp7FxHI&feature=related

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 5:28 PM | Report abuse

I'm pretty sure that NoDonkey is turning "progressive" into a slur.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 5:28 PM | Report abuse

Thanks yellojkt but since I don't live in the U.S. I also don't know who Emerson Lake and Palmer are. I will try the link you posted.

Posted by: orawh | January 8, 2011 5:32 PM | Report abuse

Bob, you mean "progressively being shown to be the more rational," right?

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 5:33 PM | Report abuse

"So, since Obama is not a proper citizen and therefore not really President, is it OK if I chalk all of the deaths in the ongoing conflicts up to Bush for purposes of the fantasy death league?"

Obama is more like the Roman emperor Carcalla.

Carcalla was born to mixed parentage, e.g. different races and countries.

He had massive government spending programs, gave Roman citizenship to all foreigners in the Empire to obtain tax revenue. He murdered thousands of political opponents.

Gibbons writes this was the beginning of the end of the Roman Empire.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 5:35 PM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit

But no one else issued a gun target over this Congressperson's name, urging followers to take her out.

That 'targeted list' is still on Palin's website as we tap here.

Posted by: dutchess2 | January 8, 2011 5:37 PM | Report abuse

yellojkt, I just tried your link. It's a turn off for me. So who listens to them and why are the people who listen progs? I follow American politics very carefully ( am an ex-pat) but never came across the word prog before.

Posted by: orawh | January 8, 2011 5:37 PM | Report abuse

The tales some people tell to cover up their racism!

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 5:38 PM | Report abuse

What a horrible thing to have happened. That we empower people to commit such atrocious acts means, to me, that we are doing something wrong.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | January 8, 2011 5:38 PM | Report abuse

Who was that, Euell Gibbons when he stated that the Romans weren't getting enough pine nuts in their diet?

Perhaps you meant Edward Gibbon. Like the ape.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 5:41 PM | Report abuse

My favorite prog rock Youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5zyNkICCOM

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 5:42 PM | Report abuse

Where are you from, orawh?

Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, by the way, were English, as were most practitioners of progressive rock.

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 5:42 PM | Report abuse

The Law of Consequence says rabbit gravy.

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 8, 2011 5:44 PM | Report abuse

do you folks think dancingrabbit has ever kissed a girl?

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 5:44 PM | Report abuse

BBear1 said: "Excuse me, but I'm not seeing a pattern of assination attempts against Republicans."

In fairness, I think I can point out a few, based on just what's in my head right now and a brief moment with Wikipedia and Google:
Ronald Reagan
Gerald Ford
Teddy Roosevelt (though he wasn't a Republican at the time)
William McKinley
James A. Garfield
Abraham Lincoln

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 8, 2011 5:44 PM | Report abuse

orawh,
I fear your leg came off in my hand. 'Prog' is an abbreviation for 'progressive rock', an instrumentally intense style of music popular in the 1960s and 70s.

Bob-S is right in that in this context it is some sort of Limbaugh-ish slur on political progressives much as the right has popularized 'lib' for liberal. Can we start calling conservatives 'cons' or 'reacts'?

As for who would listen to prog music, that is an excellent question. I guess you had to be there.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 5:46 PM | Report abuse

"The tales some people tell to cover up their racism!"

George Washington: "prosecute all crimes against the Law of Nations".

Law of Nations chapter XIX..a natural born citizen is born to citizen parents. A nation cannot perpetuate its self unless citizens are born from its citizens. A nation should desire this.

The US Supreme Court in 2003 stated in their opinion.." The Law of Nations has been a part of our laws for over 200 years"

Chief Justice Marshall: "A citizen is born from citizen parents..it is not determined by being born on a spot of land"

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 5:48 PM | Report abuse

baldinho re your 5:44 answer NO, but perhaps a blow up doll!

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 5:49 PM | Report abuse

-pj I was born in Los Angeles but have lived in Israel for the last 50 years. Does prog mean progressive rock or just progressive politics? If so, how do you define progressive in the political sense? Sorry for being so out of it. Incidentally, I have lurked on this site off and on for years but mostly don't have time for it. Your name is one of the few that I recognize from my last lurk, along with Mudge and yellojkt. Is Cassandra still around?

Posted by: orawh | January 8, 2011 5:51 PM | Report abuse

dutchess2 - Just post a link to Daily Kos next time, OK hon?

Predictable progs. Parroting Daily Kos, Olbmerann and Maddow.

Posted by: NoDonkey | January 8, 2011 5:51 PM | Report abuse

I wasn't under the impression that Daily Kos was on nearly (if not every) cable system in the country, broadcasting into millions of home and, unfortunately, doctors' office and car-repair waiting rooms. Maybe I should check my line-up.

Someone on Twitter, and I'm sure many other folks as well, pointed out that if the gun sights had been on an Iranian-American website, Sarah Palin would have demanded they come down and accused the site of terrorism. People complained when she first put them on her site, and predicted similiar consequences.

Although we don't know what connection they have to today's events, we do know they constitute hate and no one should really support hate, no matter who it targets.

Oh.. and I'm a prog and I'm proud of it.

Posted by: -TBG- | January 8, 2011 5:53 PM | Report abuse

Hummmmm, Simmering Rabbit.
http://picasaweb.google.com/ShriekingDenizen/January1_201#5559951802796598498

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 8, 2011 5:53 PM | Report abuse

I listened, still listen to progressive rock, love it, course I am a wacky Canuck.

Bob-S lay off the Newfs!

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 5:55 PM | Report abuse

TBG - I don't think that Palin should run for anything higher than chairman of the RNC, but if you don't think progs hate her, you are delusional.

Posted by: NoDonkey | January 8, 2011 5:56 PM | Report abuse

Hello orawh... glad you posted, but sorry for the circumstances that drew you out. I think prog is a dirty word for someone who wants to move forward, rather than back.

Cassandra is still here, but goes by cmyth4u now. Many folks had to change "handles" when the Post started requiring one to register before commenting.

Posted by: -TBG- | January 8, 2011 5:56 PM | Report abuse

orawh,

For a discussion of politics, progressive and liberal mean the same thing.

Progressive rock is a whole different animal and it is perfectly understandable to not like it. Other practitioners of it include Pink Floyd, King Crimson, and the early version of Genesis. It was mostly English, although there were groups from other countries, like the German group called Tangerine Dream. There is no connection between the music and the politics.

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 5:57 PM | Report abuse

TBG - "Lean forward" to fiscal ruin, degeneracy and general lunacy, exactly right.

Posted by: NoDonkey | January 8, 2011 5:59 PM | Report abuse

To be honest... I think progs LOVE her, NoDonkey.

Posted by: -TBG- | January 8, 2011 6:00 PM | Report abuse

Thank you TBG.

Posted by: orawh | January 8, 2011 6:00 PM | Report abuse

The truth is coming out..Shooter is a leftist radical and homosexual..from twitter:

caitieparker Caitie Parker @ @lakarune I haven't seen him since '07. Then, he was left wing.

caitieparker Caitie Parker @ @antderosa As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 6:02 PM | Report abuse

Thank you pj. Now I understand. To some the word is a compliment to others just the opposite.

Posted by: orawh | January 8, 2011 6:04 PM | Report abuse

I once kissed a doll,my brother told me it was a wetsy betsy and it was a double dare.I also bit the head off an alien and a dinosaur.I could go for some peanut M&M's and this is a pretty entertaining game.

Posted by: greenwithenvy | January 8, 2011 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Ah yes, the respected news source, Twitter. *RME*

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 6:05 PM | Report abuse

shriek - Nice pic! Makes me hungry!

dmd - What say you? My message was sprightly and welcoming.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 6:07 PM | Report abuse

This is very shocking news. I first heard about it in an emailed statement from the NASA administrator, which sent me racing to the WaPo to find out what's going on. I'm as prone to thinking up grandiose theories of political blame as the next person, but I am going to keep my trap shut and wait for actual data before I voice any theory.

I am ironically amused that the hateful dancingrabbit seems able to evoke so much response. Dude, I will limit myself to this: it has been very long established law that citizenship conveys from having just one citizen parent. Thus, even if you advance the radical, false, and un-Constitutional notion that birth within one of the US territories does not convey citizenship, even if you promote the insane notion that Obama was actually born in Nigeria and that somehow the necessary documentation was falsely slipped into public records decades later, you still need to face the fact that no one has ever questioned the legitimate citizenship of his mother at the time that he was born. His mother was a US citizen, therefore he is a US citizen unless he renounces his citizenship, which would be quite a radical move for a sitting President. If you wish to pursue the notion that BOTH a person's parents must be citizens of the same country in order for that person to have citizenship, then you are pursuing an extremely radical notion with a very small constituency (I am guessing that it would be limited to just yourself), and you have quite an uphill slog in front of you. Plus, you also need to figure out what to do with the millions (billions?) of people who number among their ancestors some individual whose parents were of different nationalities and who were thus of no single citizenship, thus preventing citizenship for any progeny, and so on down the line.

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 8, 2011 6:07 PM | Report abuse

And on a completely different subject, here's one way to help when you can't be there to help...

http://www.instructables.com/id/What-to-do-when-bad-things-happen-to-good-people/

(forgive me if this has already been posted)

Posted by: -TBG- | January 8, 2011 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Orawh

Hello, I'm still here!(waving)

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 6:10 PM | Report abuse

Is this really what the signers of the Constitution had in mind when they approved the Second Amendment? Was this really there intent?

Posted by: RD_Padouk | January 8, 2011 6:16 PM | Report abuse

Glad to see you Cassandra. (It's easier to write than your new handle.)

Posted by: orawh | January 8, 2011 6:18 PM | Report abuse

A young person, Loughner played with the new media - Twitter, Myspace, YouTube.

Tweets from classmates are the usual - they can't believe it's him, he was philosophical, he turned into a bit of a loner. He used to be more left-wing.

Of course, the rhetoric on the violent right is that shows that the shooting is the fault of the left.

It's more instructive to follow his evolution from his YouTube videos. His use of definition of the world by defining terms as an input to syllogistic logic to prove counterfactuals seems symptomatic, in retrospect. He "proves" that to call him a terrorist his ad-hominem argument. His concerns are fake money, departure from the Constitution, government control of currency, grammar and minds, concluding "What's government if words don't have meaning?"

This suggests that the assassin is mentally ill. It also hints that his illness took hold of specific paranoid concerns. Fear of government mind control is neither left nor right. Worries about fiat money, departure from the Constitution, property rights - these are more elements of the rhetoric of the right. It is not surprising if a paranoid mind absorbs associations from the paranoid rhetoric in the environment.

So far there is no "smoking gun" connecting Loughner's acts to the "bullets if not ballets" crowd. We will never know the answer to the implicit question, "Would Loughner have murdered without the spur of violent rhetoric?"

Predictably, purveyors of such rhetoric have displayed a bit of cowardice in trying to hide their old excess or in pre-emptive blame shifting to their enemies. It is as if the members of the Weather Underground had claimed to be unaffected by the anti-government rhetoric of the left, but rather by the words of Spiro Agnew.

I think the likely conclusion is that Loughner's acts arise at the intersection of a Hinkley and a McVeigh, but with madness driving and motivation riding shotgun.

Posted by: j3hess | January 8, 2011 6:18 PM | Report abuse

"Bullets if not ballets"?

I like funding for the arts, but that seems a little strong.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

ScienceTim,

Listen carefully..no republic has survived unless its citizens are born from citizens. This includes Athens, Rome, Venice and Florence.

Aristotle wrote..citizens are born from citizen parents.

Homer: "Beware having to many foreigners in the city." Troy had many foreigners. The guards at the gate were foreigners. They were sleeping when the Greeks exited the Trojan horse.

I could list hundreds of quotes regarding citizens are born to citizen parents. What is the point..every one is blinded by their
worship of their Golden calf Obama.

Barack is not the fathers real name it is Barak.

The country of the father is the country of the son...this is how it has been for thousands of years.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 6:24 PM | Report abuse

He's from Twitter? I looked it up in Mapquest and couldn't find anything. Is it up near Kingman?

He appears to be neither left nor right, just babbling and disturbed. He listed Mein Kamp among his favorite books. Very few "leftist radicals" do that. But yes, he also listed the Communist Manifesto. Methinks he was pulling one's leg.

He kinda reminds me of a younger you, siwwy wabbit.

orawh, just ignore yello's "prog" emerson/lake joke. It was so obscure and inside baseball that half of us probably didn't get it either. FYI, Giffords is a member of our tribe, like you and me.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 6:25 PM | Report abuse

BobS,

Would Copeland's "Billy the Kid" be on your bullet ballet ballot?

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 6:27 PM | Report abuse

Arrgh, that's Copland.

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 6:32 PM | Report abuse

ylwjkt, pj, those bands are staples of my Pandora channels. I guess that means that I am a prog.

As a prog, is it ok if I like Hank Williams?

Sign me,

Very concerned!

Posted by: j3hess | January 8, 2011 6:33 PM | Report abuse

orwah

And you too.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 6:36 PM | Report abuse

It is truth - No rabbit warren is secure whilst foreign bunnies lurk within.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 6:39 PM | Report abuse

If you don't like Hank Williams, you can kiss my . . . .

By the songwriter, Kris Kristofferson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH24t8mm7kw

and altered by Hank, Jr.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMnOu3kMNFM

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 6:40 PM | Report abuse

Not quite prog, but here is some music to shoot politicians by:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJf9QQkZwls

Neil Patrick Harris sure knows how to sing a feel good number about happiness and freedom.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 6:44 PM | Report abuse

The leftists should stop their spinning..it does not work any more..we have the internet and can obtain our own information.

The shooter is trending to be a leftist radical. There is a video surfacing he is wearing Muslim garb while burning the American flag. One of his favorite authors is Marx.

Freerepublic has information the shooter is a converted Muslim and leftist.

We know who burns American flags..and it is not the Tea Party.

The country is going to hell because we have an illegal President.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 6:45 PM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit,

Since in the beginning there was no United States, no one was born a citizen. Therefore, everyone born here was born to non-citizen parents. Therefore, the US has no citizens.
Therefore, Nicolas Sarkozy is as much a citizen as you are.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Posted by: j3hess | January 8, 2011 6:45 PM | Report abuse

Muslim = Marxist leftist = foreign furry rabbit.

Got it.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 6:48 PM | Report abuse

So we can blame it all on Earl "Rabbit" Warren?

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Bob, listen carefully..no rabbit hutch has survived unless its lagomorphs are born from lagomorphs. This includes Watership Down, Pooh Corners, Mr. McGregor's Garden, Thumperville, or Shillington, Pa.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Before the internet, dancingrabbit would have only annoyed his own family and the three people that he interacted with.

No so anymore.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 6:52 PM | Report abuse

Harumph - pj and I got yello's joke right away! Nice diversion on a sad, sad day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7h4qT6OrdQ
Yes, progressive rock is held in contempt by some, as are progressive politics...

Howdy, orawh!

RD, what do you mean "we"? I empower no one who practices violence, or encourages it. I do what I can - but it does seem to be a losing battle.

Posted by: seasea1 | January 8, 2011 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Agreed, j3hess ... except for my colleague in Oklahoma, who's 1/2 Cherokee. I'll bet he'd boot dancingrabbit off these shores at nanospeed and not blink once.

*snort*

Posted by: ftb3 | January 8, 2011 6:55 PM | Report abuse

From what I have seen from our current political leaders since the news of the attack, they have all done admirably to diffuse the knee-jerk reaction of many to blame one party or another.

They should be commended. I hope that all political figures continue to do the same.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 6:55 PM | Report abuse

Israel, of course, has to deal with this problem constantly. Many western European countries are getting a taste of it. Pesky immigrants! It hasn't been easy.

Ultimately, there's no such thing as a "surviving" country. The U.S. isn't the same country that it was even fifty years ago, let alone 235 years ago. Cheap travel & communication (which was basically the issue with the Roman Empire, too) lead to upheaval. Such is life.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 7:00 PM | Report abuse

I am so very sad about this and find it hard to read the news. Will look at this tomorrow. In the meantime, will contemplate my fortune and all whom I love. And, I appreciate this place in good times and bad.

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | January 8, 2011 7:02 PM | Report abuse

First I will say please pray for and God help this wonderful lady pull through her ordeal and let's make sure the shooter receives his punishment for his actions. Second, let us also make absolutely sure Sarah Palin is held 110% accountable for the irresponsible, reckless 'cross hairs' domestic terrorist advertisements she has been peddling to the public and people like this shooter. You are an absolutely despicable, ignorant, pathetic excuse for human life Palin, shame on you.

Posted by: Hillary08 | January 8, 2011 7:03 PM | Report abuse

I'm guessing George Washington couldn't produce a birth certificate.

I agree with you, Wabbit. The country was doing soooo well right up until Jan. 21, 2009. It's been all down hill ever since. All my commie-pinko Muslim friends agree with us. And didja know Allah was an atheist? Little known fact. They don't like talking about it, especially ever since that 72-virgins-in-heaven scandal. A recent Rasmusson poll revealed that 64 percent of them had engaged in heavy petting, 38 percent weren't...well, you know...and 4.7 percent "played for the other team," if ya know what I mean. Recruiting replacements has been a real bear.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 8, 2011 7:04 PM | Report abuse

I don't hear many liberals using violence-laden language. You know, they're soft on terrorism and pro-criminal, anti-2nd amendment, according to the right. The left got burned by violence in the 60s and 70s, not to mention losing leaders to assassination. There is not an equivalence to the rhetoric on the right, IMO, at this time.

Posted by: seasea1 | January 8, 2011 7:06 PM | Report abuse

This is truly terrible. If there were 18 victims, then scores of lives will be changed forever - those killed, those wounded, those present, their families. I find it interesting that this news has prompted some wingnut Boodle sightings. Already, some people have appropriated this crime to their own means and ends - as it were, turning this crime to a different crime.

When the criminal justice system gets into its ponderous and inexorable swing, its focus will be on the defendant. Now, our focus should be on the victims. They'll have less and less public and systemic importance in days to come.

I think jhess hit on something. The shooter may or may not have been motivated by a particular political aim or goal. This very sketchy, very early information suggests he is mentally ill and acting on his own twisted and unreliable perceptions. What worries me, and has for some time, is the possibility that the recent heated and inflammatory rhetoric surrounding political discourse in this country has the power to influence persons who are not themselves politically motivated. While much of this dangerous rhetoric has come from the Tea Party and reactionary conservative wing, the radical left wing has added to it. As I see it, the pernicious influence of the words extends well beyond whatever political position they advocate. That is, this shooter may or may not have been directly influenced by the Palin "targeting" comments. However, the prevalence of such rhetoric, and its widespread acceptance, gives stable and unstable persons permission to move the scale from "I disapprove of you" to "You must die" to "I'll just shoot you and a bunch of other people there, you probably all deserve it or it really doesn't matter anyway". This is scary stuff.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 8, 2011 7:07 PM | Report abuse

School teachers, family members know when people need help. We have to encourage our health care system to be available to all who contact them with concerns about people who need and sometimes want help. It is the least we can do. We must allow people who suspect others of needed mental health care that they will listened to in a serious manner.The next person shot you or a family member.Americans love their guns until shots hit close to home!

Posted by: judithclaire1939 | January 8, 2011 7:11 PM | Report abuse

Excellent tuneage choice, seasea.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 7:15 PM | Report abuse

Very well said Ivansmom, as always.

Thanks yello for sending me off in search of old favorites, a comfort on such an awful day (well at least to me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD5engyVXe0&feature=related

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 7:16 PM | Report abuse


Who knows how the mentally ill morph their delusions into political assasination? In any event, it would do us all well to maintain respect during political debates and refrain from hate speech and name calling while in their midst.

Posted by: edbyronadams | January 8, 2011 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Ivansmom

It really is "scary stuff". You hit the nail on the head there.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 7:16 PM | Report abuse

Bob-S,
You are so right about the immigrants. Once those Visigoths learned that all roads lead to Rome, the entire Boot just became one ugly Capitol One commercial.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 7:19 PM | Report abuse

baldinho, I will be much more impressed by politicians who continue the rhetoric of a common response to a common problem in the weeks after the immediate shock. For now, it is only careful public relations messaging.

Posted by: j3hess | January 8, 2011 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Jared is severely mentally ill. He said the police dragged him out of community college for talking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhAx8WzNJT0&feature=fvsr (at 1:00 in)
That was probably pressured speech, a symptom of mania.

Didn't anyone think maybe they should drag him to a shrink or a hospital?

Posted by: Vajrakilaya | January 8, 2011 7:30 PM | Report abuse

I see that within minutes of this latest Christian Republican murders Sarah Palin removed her death threats from her web site, and I see that Jesse Kelly is now lawyering-up in case his own death threats get him indicted as an accessory to these murders:

http://www.elmerfudd.us/jesse-kelly-kills-2-more.jpg

Typical Christian Republicanism. Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Saral Palin, Ann Coulter, Jesse Kelly, they all egg-on their fellow right wing terrorist supporters to go out and murder Americans, and when the people they whip up with their theofascist hate speech murder people, they step back, raise their hands, and say "woah! we didn't kill anybody."

Get a copy of that screen capture above. The Palin domestic terrorist and her handlers as well as Jesse Kelly don't want you to see what was on their web sites before they murdered another 6 innocent Americans.

Posted by: DamOTclese | January 8, 2011 7:31 PM | Report abuse

It was Arizona Tea Party candidate Sharron Angle who called for "second amendment solutions if Democrats win."

I certainly didn't hear anyone on the Left spewing such unamerican incitement to terrorism!

Posted by: thomasmc1957 | January 8, 2011 7:35 PM | Report abuse

Here is the Republican's YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

Posted by: DamOTclese | January 8, 2011 7:36 PM | Report abuse

One thing we do know..the Congresswoman recently voted against Pelosi...and now she is shot.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 7:36 PM | Report abuse

judithclaire - If only it were that easy! Alas, sometimes casual passersby identify problems more readily than school teachers and family members who are too close to the problem. And what with one thing and another, the "health care system" can't follow up every lead to give the best possible care. Nor (given the way every system ever devised by humans has been abused) would most of us be very happy with the results if it could.

As was always the case, we all have the responsibility for looking out for one another, and trying to move limited resources to the most urgent areas of need.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 7:38 PM | Report abuse

Am I oblivious to radical left wing violent rhetoric? Because I'm not aware of any these days. Now, back in the 60s, yes, there was, and I was in the presence of some who advocated it. But not for long.

I suppose there are some leftist blogs that use extreme rhetoric, but are there Democratic politicians that do? I know political terminology refers to battles and targets and such, but have Democrats used the equivalent of "2nd amendment solutions"? I'm just not seeing it, but is that my bias?

Posted by: seasea1 | January 8, 2011 7:38 PM | Report abuse

I don't think its entirely fair to try to divorce even a psychotic individuals actions from political outcomes. What the mentally ill often focus on includes their obsessions. Sure, apparent jibberish can also be random, but let's face it, he shot a well known, 3rd term Congresswoman. She was on SarahPac's "hit list" map. I am not entirely sure why any of us would want to divorce these things and in the process, reject the notion of there being connections between things.

I heard an earlier report that he called her by name before shooting. If so, that's pretty specific, and to me, seems to indicate a political motivation, even if one enacted by someone untethered from reality. And it makes one wonder how many more folks are so tenuously tethered to reality. To that end, it DOES put significance on the kind of rhetoric and marketing put out by politicians and their operatives.

I've been saying all day that it may be the law of unintended consequences, but still, leaders, prominent individuals should be mindful of how their words, actions, graphics etc. might be taken, and choose wisely on that basis.

Posted by: lindsaycurren | January 8, 2011 7:42 PM | Report abuse

Of course, the murderer is crazy -- but his public utterances are also filled particularly half-baked and only vaguely coherent anti-government, radical right wing ideas about the illegitimacy of "the second US Constitution" and the illegitimacy of a currency not backed by "gold and silver" -- as well as rants about people who don't understand English and the illegitimacy of public education.

Yes, he's crazy, but his head was clearly filled with the crazy ideas of the lunatic fringe of the far right and his actions followed like a bullet the gunsight crosshairs drawn on Rep. Giffords by the right's favorite icon, Sarah Palin.

Posted by: dogmo | January 8, 2011 7:50 PM | Report abuse

"BoyBlue" (Daily Kos):

"Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is dead to me now. I won't lift a finger, make one phone call, nor will i EVER vote for her in the future. And why did she do this? Giffords never told me she was conservative Democrat."

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 7:50 PM | Report abuse

Assuming the video and whatnot are really from the person who's in custody for the shooting, there must have been some mental health issue.

Unfortunately, much of what passes for public political debate and even news or science is severely deranged (in the sense of being detached from truth or responsibility), which must feed the delusions of people who are losing contact with reality. I realize that the "paranoid style" thrived in American politics long before internet forums and comment sections existed and before there were web pages, but the new social media must feed this sort of thing. Except that the truly paranoid (in the political sense, the people who think the CIA's watching them) presumably avoid anything involving a computer for security reasons.

There was plenty of nuttiness during the Bush administration, but if I'm not mistaken, it's exploded over the past three years and become vicious. Maybe I should reread Joan Didion, "The Santa Ana".

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 8, 2011 7:53 PM | Report abuse

It was daily kos who had the Congresswoman in their cross hairs..not Sarah Palin. The truth is coming out. Here is the link to the screen hot.

http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/screen-shot-2011-01-08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 7:58 PM | Report abuse

I saw Dana Milbank give a talk on his book about Glenn Beck a few days after Bill O'Reilly made some joking death threats to him. Milbank seemed a little shaken. The current rhetoric of the right is sown far and wide, but some of it lands in the rather fertile minds of paranoids and schizophrenics. All the violent and military metaphors during the last campaign were irresponsible at best no matter what the political leanings, if any, of this latest possibly delusion killer are. There is crying fire in a crowded movie theater and then there is handing out matches.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 7:59 PM | Report abuse

As I mentioned earlier with regard to Code Pink, there are some awfully frantic "liberals" running around. Any randomly-chosen World Bank meeting will typically have a few representative samples nearby for your perusal.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 7:59 PM | Report abuse

KOS Bulls EYE on the Congresswoman.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2653556/posts?page=33#33

Kos is cleaning up their hate posts on the Congresswoman..freerepublic is captured their posts before being deleted.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:03 PM | Report abuse

It would appear the far left crowd my be linked to the association for Archery, or perhaps darts, hope it isn't lawn darts - they are dangerous :-)

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 8:06 PM | Report abuse

Daily KOS targets the Congresswoman in Bulls eye.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2653556/posts?page=40#40

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:07 PM | Report abuse

Joe Stack (IRS plane crasher) sums up his “manifesto” with this, a popular Karl Marx quote and a stab at Capitalism...

“The communist creed:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed:
From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.”

-Joe Stack (1956-2010)

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:10 PM | Report abuse

Oh great -- sheriff says they're looking for a second person in relation to the shooting. They're "not convinced he acted alone."

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 8:10 PM | Report abuse

"The woman accused of killing three colleagues at the University of Alabama in Huntsville [Amy Bishop] was a suspect in a 1993 attempted mail bombing, according to a report by The Boston Globe.

The report broke the day after it was learned that Bishop fatally shot her brother in Braintree in 1986. ..."

http://www.necn.com/02/14/10/Amy-Bishop-at-time-of-1993-mail-bomb-inv/landing.html?blockID=180453&feedID=4215
_________________________________________

"A family source said Bishop, a mother of four children - the youngest a third-grade boy - was a far-left political extremist who was "obsessed" with President Obama to the point of being off-putting."--Boston Herald, February 15, 2010

'Oddball' portrait of Amy Bishop emerges:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100215oddball_protrait_emerges_suspects_family_pals_offer_clues/srvc=home&position=0

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:12 PM | Report abuse

It's probably another nut driven over the edge by Palin, Beck, and Fox News. There was a Palin reference mentioned by Katie Couric on a special edition of the CBS Evening News today. She said something about a mark over Congresswoman Gifford's district on a US map over at SarahPAC.com I will pray for the Mrs. Gifford and the other victims.

Posted by: superbenA2002 | January 8, 2011 8:13 PM | Report abuse

From SFGate.com:

Unabomber essay urges attacks on 'techno-industrial system'
July 27, 2002 | By Dan Eggen, Dominic Gates, Washington Post

In an article published this spring by Green Anarchy, a radical environmental newsletter, [unabomber Ted] Kaczynski calls on revolutionaries to "eliminate the entire techno-industrial system" by "hitting where it hurts" and disparages the activities of most radicals as "pointless."

http://articles.sfgate.com/2002-07-27/news/17554242_1_contention-that-modern-society-radical-environmental-newsletter-kaczynski-kaczynski-s-views

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:15 PM | Report abuse

Hmmmm... An influx of lagomorph fertilizer. How useful. *raised unibrow*

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 8, 2011 8:19 PM | Report abuse

Let's not forget Hugo Chavez, who's hardly a conservative, and isn't afraid of bringing out the brass knuckles when the need arises.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 8:19 PM | Report abuse

Scotty, the news that there may be others involved is not a shock. The Mont Vernon, NH murder showed that theses folks tend to travel in packs.

They also tend to talk a lot and are not very hard to track. I am sure the locals and the FBI are looking into where he was, how he got there, etc. There will be accomplices, for sure. They may not have been truly involved with planning and stuff, but I bet there were friends who knew a lot about what he was planning.

Ahh, the desire to talk and post on social networking sites and YouTube.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 8:19 PM | Report abuse


This counting coup on this assasination attempt makes me sick. This guy was mentally ill. It doesn't matter what his political affiliations were. Those who want to tie him to the right or left are equally guilty of tarring legitimate political opposition to mental illness. Shame on you. And shame on all who try to paint differing political views as evil.

Posted by: edbyronadams | January 8, 2011 8:20 PM | Report abuse

Oswald was among the radicals of the time who saw Third World revolutionaries like Castro as the wave of the communist future. He was well aware of Kennedy's efforts to overthrow Castro's regime. As a Senate investigative committee suggested in 1975, Oswald shot Kennedy to interrupt his administration's plans to assassinate Castro or to overthrow his regime in Cuba.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:21 PM | Report abuse

One of the all-time best leftist quarterbacks, Jim Zorn, is probably smiling right now.

It is not likely because of the shooting.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 8:22 PM | Report abuse

I just feel really bad for our country, I do. And feel even worse for the families of those that lost their life. My heart goes out to them, and the people of Tuscon that witness such violence. And I hope Congresswoman Gifford has a full recovery.

Gonna turn in for the night, feeling a little tired, and quite a bit of sadness. I know the world is not a good place, I realize that, but I believe we can do better. And my prayer is that we will realize that, and reach for those things above, and stop playing with fire.

As Ivansmom pointed out earlier, this is scary stuff.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 8:24 PM | Report abuse

And love to all.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 8, 2011 8:25 PM | Report abuse

I gotta say, wascally wabbit, you probably shouldn't try to bolster your case for the "founding fathers" thoughts on citizen-on-citizen birthin' or military leadership with quotes from John Paul Jones, who was born in Scotland and went on to a career in the Russian Navy.

If you're gonna be a nativist, you'll have to stick a bit closer to home, don't you know?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 8:26 PM | Report abuse

ScienceTim - this is an inconsequential nitpick given the circumstances, but I'm the type that can't let this pass and besides it brings me back to more rational discussions. :-)

First, let me say that Barack Hussein Obama Jr. was born in the US State of Hawaii on August 4, 1961 and is therefore an American citizen by birth.

Second - unfortunately for some of us, citizenship laws regarding Americans born overseas changed a LOT before 1986, when the laws were made rational. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law for the full description. What mattered was the law in effect at the time one was born, because no change made it retroactive.

For persons born between December 24, 1952 and November 14, 1986 (which includes Obama - and me :-), a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true (there are different rules if both parents are US Citizens):

1. One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born
2. The citizen parent lived at least ten years in the United States before the child's birth;
3. A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.

Here's the catch - at the time of the President's birth, Ann Dunham Obama was 18 years, 8 months and 27 days old, according to the records. Thus, she had NOT lived in the US for 5 years after her 14th birthday. Thus had the President been born outside the US (he wasn't) he would NOT have inherited his mother's citizenship.

The laws have since been changed and he WOULD inherit her citizenship under those circumstances, but it was a mess.

(FWIW, McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, was a citizen by birth both virtue of having two US citizen parents - the rules were different - and by virtue of different rules applying for military serving abroad, and particularly in the Canal Zone.)

We now return you to your previously ongoing insanity. :-)

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 8, 2011 8:27 PM | Report abuse

Ignoring Oswald's communist links, journalists and political leaders quickly claimed the president was a martyr to civil rights.

Earl Warren said that Kennedy had "suffered martyrdom as a result of the hatred and bitterness that has been injected into the life of our nation by bigots."

Martin Luther King said the assassination had to be viewed against the backdrop of violence against civil rights marchers in the South.

James Reston wrote in the New York Times that "something in the nation itself, some strain of madness and violence, had destroyed the highest symbol of law and order."

Now we know Oswald was a radical leftist.

The Achenblog is a leftist blog and it attempted to spin the blame on Sarah Palin.

It is what leftist do..when a nut leftist shots someone they spin the story to blame a conserative.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:30 PM | Report abuse

From the Wall Street Journal
NOVEMBER 24, 2007

Oswald was a dedicated communist who had defected to the Soviet Union in 1959 out of disgust with American capitalism.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:32 PM | Report abuse

"He happened to be in the vicinity of asteroids 325,326,327,328,329 and 330. So he began by visiting them, to keep himself busy and to learn something.

The first one was inhabited by a king. Wearing purple and ermine, he was sitting on a simple yet majestic throne.

'Ah! Here's a subject!', the king exclaimed when he caught sight of the little prince. And the little prince wondered,

'How can he know who I am if he's never seen me before?'

He didn't realize that for kings, the world is extremely simpified: all men are subjects."

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 8:33 PM | Report abuse

That last one was for delusionalrabbit.

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 8:36 PM | Report abuse

A leftist like this blogger Archen is the example of hate speech and violent rhetoric.

Stop pointing the finger at us..look to your own.

Conservatives believe that the individuals alone are responsible for their crimes.


Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:40 PM | Report abuse

edbyronadams is, as usual correct. Also, as usual, he is condescending and judgmental.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 8:44 PM | Report abuse

We are spiritual twins, and I love him so!

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 8:45 PM | Report abuse

proof daily kos is deleting negative comments they made about the Congresswoman voting against Pelosi and targeting her.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2653556/posts

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:49 PM | Report abuse

wascally wabbit, you've got some valid points buried beneath a lot of whirling madness. But Achenbach would not be claimed as one of their own by most leftists, and he is certainly a weak example of "hate speech and violent rhetoric."

Have you been hitting that pipe a little hard? Gotten hold of some bad carrots?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 8:51 PM | Report abuse

Now a coffee-can "device" with words written on it at Congresswoman Gifford's Tucson office is being disabled by the bomb squad.

The Pima County sheriff said that Judge Roll had been on his way to Saturday Mass and had dropped by to say hello to Giffords, who was a friend.
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_0e6ad2ce-1b8e-11e0-ab28-001cc4c002e0.html

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 8, 2011 8:51 PM | Report abuse

Archenblog tell us your dailykos id...are you BlueBoy?

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 8:53 PM | Report abuse

The shooter, Jared Laugher, is a far left liberal whose favourite book is Communist Manifesto and favourite Youtube clip is the burning of the US flag.

Congresswoman Giffords is a centrist and a member of the so-called Blue Dog Coalition of Democrats who supported fiscally conservative, pro-business policies. She has pushed for more troops to guard the nearby US-Mexico border. Apparently, she is an opponent of the far left liberals.

Barack Obama - The Chicago Way
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/obama-we-bring-a-gun/
"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ScvAJG51V4
"If he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue." - The Obama Way

The shooter is apparently trying to "send one of his to the morgue." - The Obama Way.

Posted by: skponggol | January 8, 2011 8:55 PM | Report abuse

Joel, as always you are to be commended for trying to be the voice of reason. Indeed, it is a tad premature to interpret this as anything more than a horrible, horrible tragedy. All that is clear is that 6 people are dead who did nothing, absolutely nothing, to deserve it. What it means is that we still have some work to do.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | January 8, 2011 8:57 PM | Report abuse

I hope Arizona takes full advantage of the death penalty with freak that shot those people today. Fry him.

Posted by: usa-pro | January 8, 2011 8:58 PM | Report abuse

DailyKos wanted to locate Target stores in various districts as punishment for politicians who disappointed them? Diabolical!

I promise not to take dancingrabbit hunting with me, however, since he can't tell the difference between target practice with a bullseye, and putting the crosshairs on a person.

"___" is dead to me" is the ancient practice of shunning and to "not lift a finger" is the action that follows - very different from putting a finger to the trigger. (I'm still waiting for your proof of citizenship.)

Bob-S, could you send a few of those frantic liberals down here? They're hard to find in Orange County. I'd like to stage a tag-team wrestling match between the frantic liberals and Orly Taitz and a few of her birther friends ....

Posted by: j3hess | January 8, 2011 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Jared Laugher was a Libertarian, like Tea Party hero Rand Paul, as his insistence that the US return to the gold standard in his videos demonstrate.

Posted by: jackalope2 | January 8, 2011 9:02 PM | Report abuse

"FYI, via Dailykos commenters: Giffords was one of the 20 Democrats who were elected in 2008 and voted for health care reform and were then targeted for defeat by Sarah Palin in a "takebackthe20" campaign that included a map showing each congressional district in cross-hairs -- as in a gunsight. Rather incendiary"

The above was posted by the author of this blog before knowing the facts. "incendiary"

This leftist blogger must have known daily kos had the Congresswoman in their cross hairs. Why was it not posted along with the Palin comment.

Why is daily kos in a panic deleting negative comments regarding the Congresswoman.

This blog is a tool for the radical left.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 9:03 PM | Report abuse

I find it very sad that some of our visitors today are absolutely set on making this a political murder and attempted murder - by either the Left or the Right. Both sets of commenters apparently have no ability to see this event as something which might have no immediate political significance, or not in the way they claim. Even sadder, their insistence on the particular character of this event, and their correct understanding of it, suggests they are unable to view this event as something apart from themselves.

It isn't all about you, you know. It isn't even all about me.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 8, 2011 9:04 PM | Report abuse

What a horribly sad story about the judge, Dave! That's a tragic coincidence.

Posted by: -pj- | January 8, 2011 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Ooooh, a DancingRabbit!
http://picasaweb.google.com/ShriekingDenizen/January1_201#5560002175092150946

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 8, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit is obviously a front-fool for the terpsichorean lagomorph lobby, which intends to use this as a wedge issue to further their nefarious ends.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 9:13 PM | Report abuse

A KOLD reporter found a former neighbor of the Loughner who sold their house and moved away from the neighborhood to get away from the father of the family. They're also citing the Washington Post as the source of info on young Loughner's weapon having been legally purchased.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 8, 2011 9:15 PM | Report abuse

But wait... I think the Washington Post was quoting KOLD as THEIR source!

Save us, wascally wabbit. Share with us your verities & wisdom.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 9:20 PM | Report abuse

The DNC had Arizona in their bullseye:


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2653593/posts?page=11#11

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

The Achenblog attempted to spin the blame on Sarah Palin from the beginning..

The country is the same as it was in 1860..does the blogger Achen want bloodshed..what is your goal by blaming Sarah Palin for the shooting..is it your hate of her..your jealously..

The left makes so many wild charges it isn’t unusual for them to have the petard blow up in their faces.


"Violence, in truth, recoils upon the violent, and the schemer falls into the pit he has dug for another."

— Sherlock Holmes, paraphrasing The Bible.

Oh I forgot..the left does not believe in the Bible..


Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 9:29 PM | Report abuse

All we know for certain is that the shooter is nuts. The rest is just up to the minute speculation.

Posted by: Jihm | January 8, 2011 9:30 PM | Report abuse

Well, I've heard that the left doesn't necessarily believe in Sherlock Holmes.

But the left is just a bunch of non-believers.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 9:32 PM | Report abuse

What do we know. The shooter was not a "teabagger," or a veteran, or a conservative. He was a disturbed person who the left wished was a teabagger, veteran or conservative. Sorry, liberals and leftists, he's more likely one of your own.

Posted by: ecartr5 | January 8, 2011 9:33 PM | Report abuse

ecart, just throw an "elitist" in there and you'll be three for three.

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 9:37 PM | Report abuse

Regardless of this guy's actual politics, if they are discernible at all, I find it interesting how quickly and vociferously conservatives are desperate to paint this guy as a bleeding heart liberal. It smacks of a guilty conscience.

And Daily Kos, like Free Republic, is not a single monolithic blog. So if there is some smoking gun on some person's diary, it does not mean anything. Any idiot can start a DailyKos diary. Trust me on this.

http://www.dailykos.com/user/momodo

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 9:39 PM | Report abuse

News Flash!

dancingrabbit reveals that DalyKos is a left-wing blog!

More shocking revelations to follow!

Ivansmom, you have it mostly right. And it was all predictable before the event. The only thing I'll add is that there is no bright line between incitement to anger or hate and incitement to violence, and the mentally less stable, the socially less integrated, are more likely to cross the line.

Posted by: j3hess | January 8, 2011 9:40 PM | Report abuse

Found a column by Eugene Robinson on violent political rhetoric - emanating from the right, not the left.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/29/AR2010032901891.html

"It is dishonest for right-wing commentators to insist on an equivalence that does not exist. The danger of political violence in this country comes overwhelmingly from one direction -- the right, not the left. The vitriolic, anti-government hate speech that is spewed on talk radio every day -- and, quite regularly, at Tea Party rallies -- is calibrated not to inform but to incite."

"Demagogues scream at people that their government is illegitimate, that their country has been "taken away," that their elected officials are "traitors" and that their freedom is at risk. They have a right to free speech, which I will always defend. But they shouldn't be surprised if some listeners take them literally."

I'm not saying that the Arizona shooter is necessarily linked to any specific rhetoric - just that I find it reprehensible, and apparently, I'm not alone.

Hope the Congresswoman pulls through - but my gosh, 19 people shot. Sad, sad day.

Posted by: seasea1 | January 8, 2011 9:46 PM | Report abuse

The Washington Post and the blogger Achen has become the mecca of prejudice and bigotry against Sarah Palin.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 9:49 PM | Report abuse

You betcha!

Posted by: seasea1 | January 8, 2011 9:52 PM | Report abuse

Hee hee. I hardly think that necessary.

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 9:52 PM | Report abuse

KOLD? I only get my information from KAOS.

I haven't seem most of the lads in almost a decade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwmhZUMnbdc

Posted by: baldinho | January 8, 2011 9:52 PM | Report abuse

Liberals believe that once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Conservatives believe in the impossible and that you must eliminate anything that disagrees with their truth.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 9:58 PM | Report abuse

By the way, I wanted to thank ArmyBrat for that bracing dash of factual tonic earlier. It's always worthwhile to interrupt the flow of hogwash with a nip of knowledge.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 9:59 PM | Report abuse

Rep. Giffords was among a group of Democratic House candidates who were featured on the Web site of Sarah Palin’s political action committee with cross hairs over their districts, a fact that disturbed Ms. Giffords at the time.

“We’re on Sarah Palin’s targeted list,” Ms. Giffords said last March. “But the thing is the way that she has it depicted has the cross hairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they’ve got to realize there’s consequences to that.”

Posted by: HughBriss | January 8, 2011 10:01 PM | Report abuse

I think that HughBriss might be might be my second cousin.

Posted by: rickoshea11 | January 8, 2011 10:04 PM | Report abuse

Fox News is pretty disgusting.

Look what they managed to get into two paragraphs of the lead story on the shooting death of 6 people and the wounding of the Representative and 11 others:

"Giffords, known as a fiscally conservative Democrat and gun rights advocate, underwent surgery at the University of Arizona Medical Center."

Then later on, same story:

"Giffords, a gun rights advocate, was first elected to Congress in 2006, when she rode a wave of Democratic victories. However, she separated herself from most in her caucus when she criticized President Obama last summer for not sending more National Guard members to the U.S.-Mexico border."

Why don't they just write:

"Giffords, who would have strongly favored gun ownership by the man who shot her."

Posted by: 54465446 | January 8, 2011 10:06 PM | Report abuse

yello - The first quote was John Holmes, and the second one was Oliver "Wendy" Hardy, right?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 10:07 PM | Report abuse

54465446 - Ummm, that was Fox News' way of not demonizing a Democrat. I'm not sure what so disgusts you. This was (within their context) high praise.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 10:13 PM | Report abuse

God gave the United States to Protestant Christians via the Bible and the Law of Nations.

When the Founders wrote natural born citizens..they limited the Presidency to the descendants of the original citizens after the ratification.

This established a Kind..this Kind cannot be changed by the 14th Amendment.

The events taking place is the beginning of a war between the original natural born citizens and the interlopers..perpetual inhabitants. such as Obama and the radical left.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 8, 2011 10:17 PM | Report abuse

Check out the frothing mouth and flying spittle!

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 10:23 PM | Report abuse

"Bow chicka bow wow..." - John Holmes

"No bow-wow points to the culprit." -Sherlock Holmes

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 10:24 PM | Report abuse

As a mother, I am insulted by dancing rabbit's insinuation that my citizenship does not factor into the determination of the citizenship of my biological children. What kind of country is this if I am considered less of a citizen than a man?!

And I thought we US women were done with this stupidity when we got the right to vote...sigh.

Posted by: MiddleofthePacific | January 8, 2011 10:25 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and exactly what "Kind" is that? The White Man Kind?

BTW, I'm pretty sure the President's mother is descended from the "original citizens" you speak of. But they, of course, were not natural born citizens themselves, were they.

Posted by: MiddleofthePacific | January 8, 2011 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Now we know that dancingrabbit is a White Power Rabbit.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 10:29 PM | Report abuse

I prefer to think of Achenblog as the mecca free of the prejudice and bigotry of Sarah Palin.

But, on to serious matters:

http://www.samthesham.com/

(make sure the sound is on)

Posted by: j3hess | January 8, 2011 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Not just a wee, sleekit White Power rabbit, but a wee, sleekit, cow'rin tim'rous *Protestant* White Power beastie.

I kinda think that sad ship o'state has sailed, long since. And much the better we are for it, too, inn'it?

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 10:40 PM | Report abuse

And let us not forget Robbie's second stanza:

I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 10:43 PM | Report abuse

I'm not sure about that whole "White Power Rabbit" thing. I'm waiting to hear from Alice, I think she'll know.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 8, 2011 10:57 PM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 11:02 PM | Report abuse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 11:06 PM | Report abuse

Love you, dmd!

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 11:09 PM | Report abuse

Great minds Yoki, and what a great song.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 11:11 PM | Report abuse

We include Bob-S in the great minds, of course.

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 11:16 PM | Report abuse

I am crushed to discover that I am not a citizen of the United States. My grandmother came over from Italy when she was six months old, and later married a man who was also born in Italy. Clearly, neither of them was a "natural born citizen," and of course they were Catholics which makes it even worse. So my mother, born in Trenton, NJ from two people who could never be citizens (never mind that pesky naturalization process...) is clearly not a "natural born citizen." My father has much the same story, though his is from Ireland (those pesky Catholics again.) And so there is no way that I will ever be an actual "natural born citizen."

Can someone please tell me where I need to go now? How about you, pukingrabbit?

And hey, dude, you are one sick puppy who needs some serious help. Hope you get it.

Posted by: bennettks | January 8, 2011 11:20 PM | Report abuse

Yes of course.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 11:21 PM | Report abuse

A hit! A very palpable hit!

Welcome bennettks.

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 11:23 PM | Report abuse

If I follow rabbits "logic" correctly you must be a direct descendant of one of the families at the time of the formation of the USA, otherwise you are not a citizen. Am I also correct that you must be a citizen to vote, if the vast majority of the US are entitled to vote (let alone be President) wouldn't they have taxation without representation?

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 11:34 PM | Report abuse

Sonnet 129

THE EXPENSE of spirit in a waste of shame
Is lust in action; and till action, lust
Is perjur’d, murderous, bloody, full of blame,
Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust;
Enjoy’d no sooner but despised straight;
Past reason hunted; and no sooner had,
Past reason hated, as a swallow’d bait,
On purpose laid to make the taker mad:
Mad in pursuit, and in possession so;
Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme
A bliss in proof,—and prov’d, a very woe;
Before, a joy propos’d; behind, a dream.
All this the world well knows; yet none knows well
To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.

- W.S. -

Posted by: Yoki | January 8, 2011 11:36 PM | Report abuse

I am off to bed heard a colleague of one of the slain say this evening it was a good day to hug someone you love and someone you do not like, boodle consider yourselves hugged, and you in the same spirit Rabbit consider yourself hugged as well.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 8, 2011 11:36 PM | Report abuse

My, I chose a good day to drive instead of boodle. It's very sad to hear a nine-year old girl died and so many others are wounded.

Spree killings by definition tend to have an element of mental illness involved.

It's also sad to see so many disturbed people coming out to spout their ideologies as though any of those ideologies would bring that little child back to life right now.

As though their ideologies could reverse time, take that gun away from the shooter, go back in time until all was "happy and right"-- a perfect moment that has never existed and never will exist.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 8, 2011 11:46 PM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit,

We have a lot of fun with trolls around here on the occasions they stumble into here, but I cannot cotton to racist Birthers, so my taunting of you is done. You have tried to spread your fertilizer around WaPo before and have proven yourself impervious to reason, and worse, not much fun.

Please go back to Free Republic or Red State or wherever you can find an audience willing to listen to your deranged ramblings. While the First Amendment protects your right to make an jackrabbit ass out of yourself, we have the right not to pay you any attention.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 8, 2011 11:50 PM | Report abuse

Suggest a study of the word natural and its relationship to the word Kind. What do you think a Kindly King means..a friendly one? What does Kindren mean..what does Kin mean. what does gecynde mean..

The Founders limited the presidency to the descendants of the original citizens. Others can be citizens but only a limited few can be actual natural born citizens.

The word natural changes everything but it can not be changed by man..including the 14th amendment.

Now you know the secret of the term natural born citizen and why the courts are avoiding it.

Natural and Kind have the same meaning. Kind comes from the old english saxon word gecynde.

The Founders knew the meaning but today's Congress do not.

A foreigner is not limited to another country...I am referring to John Jay's letter to George Washington.

A foreigner according to the Founders..when they used natural in natural born citizen..limited the presidency to the descendants of the original citizens.

They were naturally White Christian Protestants. Ben Franklin wrote..Americans are from England and Saxony.,,and should immigrate from there..but over time..the meaning was lost..now we have a mess.

This is why we have so many problems in America today..everyone brings their own idea of government..totally foreign and un-natural what the Founders wanted.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 12:14 AM | Report abuse

wow. lots of stuff has happened today while i was working. disheartening. on a lighter note, this song keeps popping up as background in one of those commercials:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1FK620bS7A

classic stuff.

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 12:29 AM | Report abuse

Clearly you, dear March-Hare, do not have a linguistic-deciphering understanding of either Indo-European root-words nor Anglo-Saxon (with just a smattering of Norse) (not to mention Athenian democracy). I fear it is much too late to educate you in any cognate in that stew that gives us the rich pageant that is is the English language.

But here's a little test. If I call a root-vegetable a "Fat Hedge Cow" to which modern English word does your linguistic skill translate that phonetic pronunciation?

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 12:29 AM | Report abuse

wow. lots of stuff has happened today while i was working. disheartening. on a lighter note, this song keeps popping up as background in one of those commercials:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1FK620bS7A

classic stuff.

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 12:31 AM | Report abuse

The Founders were not Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Mormons..they were Protestants.

They wrote in the Preamble..we give to our posterity..this means descendants, heirs.

Natural means descendants, race..heirs, kind, gecynde, descent.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 12:34 AM | Report abuse

jack. john henry, in reverse chronological.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaCjPdtDBxo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMHLWmgi7WY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRQgQhcEPHI

It is all about the guitar.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 12:39 AM | Report abuse

and pig's take:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19AoHtthb4

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 12:40 AM | Report abuse

And that's a rather a happy pig in good mud.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 12:43 AM | Report abuse

If you really want to understand the Founders read the classics they read..and you will find the word spurious..which means not natural. Where did spurious come from..if a Roman married a non citizen..the child of this married was spurious.

The original meaning of mongrel came from the Romans..it means..a child born in marriage who were different nations.

Read Freud..why does a woman marry someone from a different race, country and religion?

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 12:44 AM | Report abuse

agreed, yoki. the simplest chops are often the most effective.

this one's for you, dancingrabbit. now go away or i shall taunt you a second time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNGxCQn4NE8

take the advice after the bridge.

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 12:51 AM | Report abuse

You just made me laugh out loud, jack. I shall taunt you a second time, with your stupid bent-kneed English running about!

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 12:55 AM | Report abuse

The Pretenders were proto-Punk. Fabulous that you posted them, and ran-off that wee sleekit cowrin' beast.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 12:56 AM | Report abuse

No one can refute what I wrote..they can only make personal attacks.

A natural born citizen is born to citizen parents who are descendants of the original citizens after the ratification of the Constitution.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 12:58 AM | Report abuse

Golly. I thought the rabbit was political, but this is very much about kith & kin & klan, isn't it?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 1:04 AM | Report abuse

drabnabbit - Refutation is unnecessary, because you're throwing up strawbunnies. OK, you believe that only a genetically untainted lineage should be citizens. You've made it very clear that you believe this, and that careful reading of the words of the founding fathers, and Sherlock Holmes, supports this belief.

You know what? I genuinely believe that you believe this. I don't think you're kidding me even a little bit. No refutation necessary.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 1:11 AM | Report abuse

ok, dancingrabbit. present your geneaology. assuming you are truly a natural born citizen. all i know is that i'm a second generation American, descended from grandparents that immigrated from, on my mother's and fathers side, respectively, from 'derry and Trier, Luxembourg. family history has us linked to the gentleman that hung the lanterns for Paul Revere. i don't know who that gentleman was related to, but being an American is good enough for me. and i vote. *casting one in favour of a keelhauling for you as pennance for your derisive posts.* take your arguments elsewhere. please, and thank you.

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 1:11 AM | Report abuse

Hold me back, Bob.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 1:13 AM | Report abuse

I'm almost-sort-of-thinking that this toxic March-hare is a woman. Unless she's willing to admit (do!) that the original peoples were first Nations (and I'm thinking s/he calls them something less-than-respectful); no. No. NO.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 1:19 AM | Report abuse

ok, dancingrabbit. present your genealogy. assuming you are truly a natural born citizen. i'm a second generation American, descended from, on my mother's and father's side, respectively, grand parents that immigrated from Londonderry and Trier, Luxembourg. family legend has us linked to the gentleman that hung the lanterns for Mr. Paul Revere. i don't know that gentleman's lineage, but being an American is good enough for me. and i vote. *casting one in favour of keelhauling you for trolling* take your arguments elsewhere. parma, perhaps. please, and thank you.

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 1:21 AM | Report abuse

Actually, I believe that only people who are genetically-pure descendants of the people who were citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution AND who have never spent time posting comments on liberal rags like the Washington Post are citizens.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 1:25 AM | Report abuse

SCC: multiple double posts. please excuse me. my emotions have caused unexplainable tetanii, causing double taps.

*putting on the dunce cap and heading for the corner*

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 1:25 AM | Report abuse

strawman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siiNiX5-zAk&feature=related

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 1:30 AM | Report abuse

I had a *great* corned beef sandwich in Parma. Saw the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame that trip, too.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 1:31 AM | Report abuse

Nice one, jack! I hadn't heard that one in years, and I'm not sure I'd ever really listened closely to the lyrics.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 1:37 AM | Report abuse

dirty boulevard, just for gp's. says a lot about our huddled masses. pay attention, dancingrabbit. there's gonna be a quiz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA4-4ifhixg&feature=related

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 1:38 AM | Report abuse

Um, hon, we don't need to refute what you say. Because it is a great nonsense! If you'd like to come at us with chapter and verse of the Constitution of the United States of America, I'm sure some of your fellow-Americans would be happy to argue with you (using that term in the Latin sense); but you'd have to present a cogent argument and a text. Just sayin' Heck, even I would argue common law in precedent and habeas corpus with you!

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 1:41 AM | Report abuse

parma=the ghoul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5YOC-Gf8vQ

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 1:50 AM | Report abuse

I wonder if the bunny realizes that his formulation would have excluded Reagan, two of whose grandparents were born in England.

In any case, the language about "natural born citizens" was clearly intended to exclude only those who were delivered through C-section--although I'm pretty sure that a close reading will also extend it to test tube babies and, eventually, clones

Posted by: rashomon | January 9, 2011 1:57 AM | Report abuse

But *is* the bunny a "he?" I'm not entirely sure.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 1:59 AM | Report abuse

Actually, we've mischaracterized the Rabbit's (obviously heartfelt) concerns.

OK, I'll stipulate that there are two flavors of citizens: The natural-born citizens (who are eligible to become President) and the... incidental citizens, who are not.

Presumably, incidental citizens should not be eligible to become Vice-President, because that would just be silly. How far down in the line of succession should we go with that? And is there a possible breeding line where mixing enough "natural-born" blood back into the mix would allow a descendant of an "incidental" to be eligible for one of the exalted positions?

I ask these questions only because, as a practical matter, if we manage to have enough natural-born citizens to preserve the Republic, the issues will come up from time to time.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 2:07 AM | Report abuse

I'm not sure that I've been entirely successful, but I've tried not to genderize the wascally wabbit in word or thought.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 2:12 AM | Report abuse

You're just a short-handled wooden spoon, aren't you, dear Bob-S, stirring the pot? Go on with you!

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 2:17 AM | Report abuse

I prefer to think of myself as a splash of fine brandy, adding a bit of flashy flame on top of an already tasty dish.

And a quick review of my comments leads me to think that I have been successful at the androgenization of bouncingbunny.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 2:24 AM | Report abuse

Actually a shot of cheap brandy, best kept around for gaudy displays to amuse the tourists.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 2:29 AM | Report abuse

I predict a very busy week for licensed gun dealers. The leftist radicals will spin this to attempt to ban selling of guns.

This is one of their agendas. Since they are blaming Sarah Palin for this tragedy..I see no pleasant outcome.

Congress shutting down is cowardice. Are they going to dock their pay.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 2:33 AM | Report abuse

I guess I'd rather sip a cheap brandy. You know, for everyday.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 2:42 AM | Report abuse

How did the old theme-tune of The Twilight Zone go? Do do do do do do do?

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 2:46 AM | Report abuse

I'm not sure I would have accepted that "short-handled" description quite so graciously, Bob.

(Say, this pot-stirring is fun.)

Posted by: rashomon | January 9, 2011 2:58 AM | Report abuse

Poor, poor Bunny, inevitably disappointed by all us leftist, liberal, elitist, coastal, educated, literary, articulate, conversible types. Would you like a cup of tea and a conversation? Yes? No? Shall we talk about the plastic arts? Physics? Style in writing? All the sad old poets, say, Marvel, S, (not to mention Neruda)?

No? How about recipes for dumplings? How about sewing on the bias? No? I'm pretty sure dr and I could speak happily about knit and pearl and drop-a-stitch. You know! Mitred corners. No? How about cherishing small short people? How about *being* cherished?

You, my dear, need loving sisters who take the piss. Treat you to take yourself less seriously.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 3:04 AM | Report abuse

I guess, from rashomon's post, that I owe Bob an apology. Which I do most heartfeltly and painfully offer. ?

I have no clue what that is about, but I am deeply sorry, Bob, that I said something cruel that hurt you.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 3:29 AM | Report abuse

God loves us so much more than we can imagine through Him that died for all, Jesus Christ.

Good morning, friends. Well, haven't slept much, and time to get cracking already. If weather permits, will try and attend worship services this morning. After the events of yesterday, worship services sound like a fantastic idea.

We're suppose to be hit with more snow and bad weather starting today and lasting until Monday. It's very cold here.

Slyness, haven't heard from you? We saw one or two small flakes yesterday, nothing to write home about.

Have a better day, folks, and love to all. See you in church.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 4:16 AM | Report abuse

You should be proud, rashomon. You are poison, and have poisoned me. Well done.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 4:18 AM | Report abuse

Yoki

I thought when I saw your comment that you had retired for the evening\early morning, but see you're still here. Hope you get some rest, Yoki. I rarely get a chance to talk with you because you're a night owl, and I'm in dreamland by that time.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 4:25 AM | Report abuse

The great thing is, our Cassandra, that I don't sleep at all any more. I'd love to speak with you.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 4:28 AM | Report abuse

If I may ask, why don't you sleep any more?

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 4:39 AM | Report abuse

I don't know, it's a mystery! I lie down, and as soon as I take off my glasses and put away my book and turn off the light, feeling sleepy, it eludes me. I start getting all twitchy and have to get up again.

The upside is that I read and read and read, a great pleasure to me. 14 good novels in the last 10 days.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 4:44 AM | Report abuse

I'm now going into 72 hours awake. I think I'll read a bit more.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 4:45 AM | Report abuse

I'm now going into 72 hours awake. I think I'll read a bit more.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 4:47 AM | Report abuse

I'm now going into 72 hours awake. I think I'll read a bit more.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 4:48 AM | Report abuse

I'm now going into 72 hours awake. I think I'll read a bit more.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 4:48 AM | Report abuse

Yoki

I stepped away from the computer to make coffee, and just seeing your post. I hope you don't mind, but I have said a prayer for you. I asked God to put a hedge about you, to show you how great his love is for you, and for us all, and to keep you. I've met you, and I think you are one fantastic person. Whatever your reason for not sleeping, I hope it will pass. And please don't be offfended by the prayer. I've always prayed for the folks here at the Achenblog.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 4:48 AM | Report abuse

I sent you a comment, but the comment monster must have got it. That's a long time to do without sleep, and not healthly! In my comment, I just told you that I prayed for you, and all here at the Achenblog. And that whatever is keeping you awake, I hope it passes. When I read at night in bed, it puts me to sleep. I suspect it's that over active mind of yours that keeps you awake. You think?

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 4:53 AM | Report abuse

I will never be offended, Cassandra, if you pray for me. We know where we stand, so you'll know that when I send you my best love, that too is something like a prayer. It is all blessings, all around. Thank you. I think I will like down for a short while, now, feeling that blessing and your own love, and mine for you.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 5:00 AM | Report abuse

Thank you, and sleep well.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 5:03 AM | Report abuse

*faxin' Yoki lullabies and warm milk, perhaps even a teddy bear* :-)

Cassandra!! *HUGSSSSSSSSSS*

While all of us pigskin pickers took a bath on the Saints, congrats to LiT for picking the 'dog in the night game!

No immediately discernable updates from Tuscon, so I'll take that under the "no news is good news" rubric.

*really-wishing-I-had-a-weekend-setting-for-my-internal-alarm-clock Grover waves* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 6:13 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the hugs, Scotty. Now I'm sleepy and it's time to get dressed!

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 6:46 AM | Report abuse

Let's all hope that the people that love dancingrabbit steer him/her towards assistance with his/her demons more effectively than the people that loved the shooter did.

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 7:32 AM | Report abuse

Yoki, I suffer from sleep problems. Was too sleepy to be of much use all day yesterday, then couldn't sleep properly at night. Best wishes in perhaps getting to live a more regular sleep life.

One of the nice things about the US is that (apart from barring slaves and former slaves from citizenship until the 14th Amendment was adopted), the country has made citizens of people living in places added to the US. Residents of territories were citizens, something that mattered for presidential candidate Barry Goldwater, who was born in Arizona Territory.

Citizens of Hawai'i became US citizens in 1900.
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/hawaiiansovereignty/HanifinCitizen2001draft.html

Residents of Puerto Rico became US citizens in 1917, about 6 years before my grandparents showed up at Ellis Island.

Except for the requirement for the President to be born a citizen rather than naturalized, a citizen is a citizen is a citizen. No second class, despite the vigorous and effective efforts of segregationists whose legacy is still with us. Even Hawai'i had whites-only clubs and such.
_______________________

I fear that Rep. Giffords will be criticized for endangering members of the public as well as herself because she appeared in public without security.

Perhaps in the future, members of Congress will be expected to move about in bullet-resistant recreational vehicles, perhaps with big windows of bullet-resistant glass for making "outdoor" speeches. And a security entourage. Think turtle.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 9, 2011 7:34 AM | Report abuse

Popemobiles for everybody!

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 8:17 AM | Report abuse

From the current version of the WaPo front page story:

"Authorities said they were seeking a second man as a "person of interest" who might have been at the scene with the gunman. He is not a suspect in the shooting, authorities said."

I would not be surprised to find out that this was murder by lunatic and that there is a Terry Nichols out there somewhere.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 8:24 AM | Report abuse

'morning all. My favourite football teams stand 0-2 this morning. I'll have to shop around for a new team to rout for.
Early informations indicate the young Arizona killer was in the process of developing what seems like a verious serious mental illness. Basically, a raging crackpot with access to sophisticated weapons. *sigh*
It will be a very Zen morning. I'll make some pea soup and do some snow removal. I like shoveling/snowblowing when I do not have to do it too often, specially when the snow is light and fluffy.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 9, 2011 8:30 AM | Report abuse

I ran across Leonard Pitt's syndicated column the other day and it seemed very appropriate for a conversation Cassandra and I were having the other day. Here is (as Andrew Sullivan puts it) the money 'graph:

"Every January we hear Martin Luther King's great speech. Every February, school kids dress up as black inventors or social leaders. But there is in us -- meaning the African-American community -- a marked tendency to avoid the grit, gristle and grime of our history. The telling of those stories is neither institutionalized nor even particularly encouraged.

"It is time for that to change. {long snip} If we don't tell our stories, someone else will."

Pitts lays into Haley Barbour and his revisionist civil rights history. Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/05/2000893/dont-let-others-define-us.html#ixzz1AXoSeQjA

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 8:31 AM | Report abuse

I had a comment get eaten so I apologize in advance for the double post.

I ran across a column by Leonard Pitts that reminded me of a conversation with Cassandra from a few days ago:

"Every January we hear Martin Luther King's great speech. Every February, school kids dress up as black inventors or social leaders. But there is in us -- meaning the African-American community -- a marked tendency to avoid the grit, gristle and grime of our history. The telling of those stories is neither institutionalized nor even particularly encouraged.

"It is time for that to change. {long snip} If we don't tell our stories, someone else will."

Then he lays into Haley Barbour and his civil rights revisionism. Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/05/2000893/dont-let-others-define-us.html#ixzz1AXp67dZk (I kinda like it when websites clip the link for you.)

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 8:52 AM | Report abuse

Ha! I knew as soon as I reposted, it would show up.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 8:54 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, you all.

Ivansmom's comments of about 7:07 PM last night had me in complete agreement.

When mental illness and firearms entwine, nothing good happens.

Giffords's full recovery is what is needed now. Arizona was fortunate to have her as a representative.

Speaking of progressive, in my day the Master of Progressive was Stan Kenton....Progressive Jazz....that is. Progressive jazz was hard to play, but for some of us, lullabies when the volume was low.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3EkI3ISz28

Artistry in Rhythm

Posted by: VintageLady | January 9, 2011 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Morning, Boodle.

*sigh*

Scotty noted that LiT leads the post-season prognosticating. The nine pickers made 18 forecasts, and at the mid-point of this weekend, the score -- with LiT leading -- is as follows:

1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.

Early on last night I came to the same conclusion as yello, that interacting with the Mad Hatter was futile, so stopped. Be that as it may, this clinically deranged person asserted that "the founders were not Catholic, Muslim..." etc.

But in fact, the Maryland colony was founded quite specifically by Catholics and remained a Catholic stronghold for many decades, pretty much with zero inter-religious strife. Also, as just about everyone knows, William Penn and his peeps were Quakers. There has always been a debate about whether Quakers are "Protestants" or not, a debate I find meaningless and pointless, and have no opinion about. But just in case El Psycho is a strict constructionist, I thought I'd throw that in. It kind of parallels the equally stupid debate about Mormons (who seemed to have founded Utah, which would raise the question about whether Utah is a legitimate state or not). But anyway, I digress. MH might fall back upon the definition of "founder," thus knocking out the Maryland Catholics and Billy Penn, whose statue graces the top of city hall in Philly. So let's discuss "founders" quite strictly.

Charles Carroll (from Maryland, viz. Carroll County, New Carrollton, etc., plus the names of counties in 10 other states) was a signer of the Declaration. Presumably, his fellow co-signers were aware of this and of the majority religion in his precinct, and seemed to have raised no objection.

Here is a Web site that lists the religion of all the signers of the three founding documents, the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Articles of Confederation. Of the total 204 signatories, there were seven Quakers and three Catholics, a tad under 5 percent of the total.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

People like Jared Laughner always raise the question of mentally disturbed loners wandering around loose about the landscape, and one of our guest posters claimed that family and school teachers are often aware of people who are nutz. Which I guess maybe they often do. But there is no workable form of intervention for these people, and if there was somebody would have thrown a net over dancingrabbit a long time ago. This is clearly a very disturbed individual.

Having picked the Ravens and the Iggles in the hopes of continuing the trend of airborne-named winners, I look forward to going 0-4 this weekend.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 9:14 AM | Report abuse

I just read that the 9 year old girl who was killed was born Sept. 11, 2001, not sure how that part of this story could get much sadder, my heart breaks for her family.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 9, 2011 9:18 AM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit, you got me thinkin' here. You wrote "God gave the United States to Protestant Christians via the Bible and the Law of Nations." Since it seems you've given this a fair amount of thought and research, I've got some questions.

God wrote the Bible and the Law of Nations? Hmmm. Who knew? Where do royalty payments go? A bank in the Caymans?

I don't recall seeing "United States" in the Bible (my Latin's only good enough to pick up words here and there in Law of Nations.) Can you point me to a chapter and verse?

Who did he give Kashmir to?

Was the original gift 13 colonies and the other states rewards for good behavior? Or were they along the lines of birthday presents?

When God gave the US to Protestants, was it like giving a puppy to a child? Was there an admonition along the lines of "Either you take care of it or I'll give it to someone who really appreciates it?" Is that how Protestants got it from Native Americans? What misstep did they make?

If the Law of Nations originated in Ancient Rome and God favors Protestants, why did he give a couple square miles to The Holy See right smack dab in the middle of Rome?

Did God only give gifts of real estate to Protestant Christians? What about Utah/Mormons? Was that carved out specially, or did Protestants get punished for something and have to cough it up? Did he give anything to non-Christians? Maybe a new car? An X-Box 360? Anything?

I'm so confused.

Posted by: LostInThought | January 9, 2011 9:23 AM | Report abuse

The death of that innocent girl can get more tragic and ironic:

"An uncle of the 9-year-old girl told the Arizona Republic Saturday evening that a neighbor was going to the event and invited Green along because she had just been elected to the student council and was interested in government."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Mornin' Boodle...

It's a nice and nippy 14F here in the Rust Belt and looks like snow is on the way. Bring it on, Lake Erie! I got a shovel and I know how to use it -- and I *like* using it. Really. I'm sick that way.

I've been following the reports out of Arizona and all I can say is that while my heart goes out to the congresswoman and all the victims and their families, I'm especially heartbroken over the little girl that died. My Little Bean is going to be nine in a few months and I just can't imagine the pain if anything as tragic as this were to happen to her. Whatever the motives behind the shooting, to take out an innocent kid is just unconscionable and poses one helluva challenge to my anti-death-penalty, peace-loving pacifist beliefs.

I just hope that little girl's family will find the strength to carry on.

Peace out, my friends... :-)

Posted by: martooni | January 9, 2011 9:39 AM | Report abuse

Morning, y'all.

After one comment here yesterday expressing my sorrow I just lurked and 'marveled'. Kept wanting to tell crazy cottontail that I was a 'phrog' but refrained in deference to boodlers who were handling him their own ways. He left me itchy and a little fearful.

I must say that the wee hours music was enjoyable, especially the Lou Reed, jack. Thanks! Yoki, my sympathies on your sleeplessness ... I understand all too well.

Comfort and peace of mind to all here.
t.

Posted by: talitha1 | January 9, 2011 9:55 AM | Report abuse

LiT, the MH has frequently invoked and quoted from "The Law of Nations," which I suspect refers to a book of that name written by (ironically) a Swiss mis-identified as a Frenchman (kind of an anti-Toqueville) named Emerich de Vattel, 1714-1767. [Also variously spelled Emer and Emmerich, etc.]

(Full text here: Emerich de Vattel)

Wiki write-up of de Vattel here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerich_de_Vattel

Washington had a copy, and it made news some years ago when it was discovered he had borrowed it from a New York library, and it was dutifully returned 221 years later.

So when this flaming, noble patriot, dancing rabbit, constantly invokes the Law of Nations, he is invoking the work of a Swiss guy who died a decade before the Revolution began, and whose document has no force whatsoever in the text of any American document, law, rule or regulation. He might just as well be invoking Hobbes or Rousseau or Grotius or Aristotle. It seems to be his belief that Vattel gets to be the dispositive authority on the rules for who is a citizen and who isn't.

MH is a couple of tacos short of a combination fiesta platter.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 10:00 AM | Report abuse

SCC: Full text here: http://www.constitution.org/vattel/vattel.htm

Semi-SCC: Vattel wrote in French.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 10:03 AM | Report abuse

Eerie parallels between the rantings of Loughner and those of the rabbit.

Posted by: davemarks | January 9, 2011 10:04 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, y'all.

Niece#2 is coming over for a pj party omelette-fest in an hour (her idea). I have coffee and OJ on the table now, with more substantial fare coming later.

I've waited about as long as I can. The tree comes down today.

Congrats to LiT for getting one of yesterday's NFL upsets right.

Stay safe and warm.

Posted by: MsJS | January 9, 2011 10:07 AM | Report abuse

Well, exactly, davemarks. Very nice observation.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Today's WaPo Outlook section has a parody piece called "The Conservative Constitution of the United States" lampooning conservative interpretations of the Constitution. Here is the satire of one of the amendments:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States are Citizens of the United States of Real America only if their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents were Citizens, and only if they pledge opposition to Health Insurance Reform or New Taxation."

http://wapo.st/e0gxrB

Proving once again that it is impossible to outflank crazies on the right.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Howdy y'all. In weather news, Oklahoma is supposed to be in for bitter cold and snow. Alas, once again it looks as if the the snow, or other significant precipitation, will miss Central Oklahoma. We are bone dry here. We had some rain around New Year's but not nearly enough. I would welcome some snow, even sleet or ice, assuming it would eventually sink into the ground as moisture. So, for all of you suffering through winter storms, you have my envy.

Tomorrow we inaugurate our first woman governor, a Republican. She's insisting on an outside inauguration, weather be darned. I say, give that woman a hat, or it will be William Henry Harrison all over again.

While Oklahoma has more than its share of social conservatives and Tea Party nuts, she and the guys running the Legislature are more big-business conservatives. They don't much care about the social-conservative legislation, but they'll stop it if it interferes with business interests. Some folks are queasy at the idea of the State Chamber running the State House. I tell them it could be a lot worse.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 10:12 AM | Report abuse

I enjoyed the responses to our crazy visitors - much more cogent than deserved.

This Arizona incident reminds me some of McVeigh. He was a deranged person who acted on beliefs similar to those held by other right-leaning anti-government protesters of the time. The Oklahoma City bombing significantly damaged the force, power and influence of that movement. Nobody wanted to sign on to that. If in fact the Arizona shooter's rantings and ramblings have a tone similar to the rhetoric of the current right-leaning anti-government protesters, perhaps this terrible attack will have the same effect. That would be a good thing to come out of a bad thing.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Actually "The Conservative Constitution" has been up since Thursday. It would be funnier if some of it weren't composed of actual quotes from 'real Americans'.

Posted by: talitha1 | January 9, 2011 10:19 AM | Report abuse

Well, maybe not 'actual quotes' ... but you know what I mean. I briefly dipped my toes into the comments on that site on Friday. It was the usual rantings from the usual suspects from 'both sides'. *sigh*

Posted by: talitha1 | January 9, 2011 10:28 AM | Report abuse

Agreed about McVeigh, Ivansmom. I thought of him a lot yesterday, as well.

I also wonder if Palin is going to keep using the "reload" meme so aggressively in the future ... well, perhaps if she's paid handsomely enough, I suspect she will.

What a country, eh?

*faxing soft and sweet lullabies to Yoki*

Posted by: ftb3 | January 9, 2011 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Talitha,
The dead trees version of the article which didn't land on my lawn until this morning has very serious script writing and a fake parchment backdrop which adds a little to the faux seriousness.

WaPo puts much of the Sunday paper online several days in advance. Dana Milbank's take on the Constitution reading was also tweeted and posted well in advance.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Yes Mudge I know. That one was my attempt at a swam dive. I also attempted a gainer with a full twist and what I thought was a halfway decent one and a half pike. Aah well. I *do* get lost in thought.

Time to make the doughnuts. Have a happy day all.

Posted by: LostInThought | January 9, 2011 11:07 AM | Report abuse

I have browser issues with the comment engine, but I'm currently showing a "0 Comments - Comments Are Closed" message on the Conservative Constitution, so I have missed out on all the hilarity.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 11:08 AM | Report abuse

SCC: swan!

Posted by: LostInThought | January 9, 2011 11:09 AM | Report abuse

Understand about the Post locking in much of the Sunday paper well ahead of time, but the "Conservative Constitution" in today's paper is the most inappropriate article they've run in years, given the circumstances. I would expect to hear that addressed by tomorrow at the latest.

Also, note that SecState Clinton acknowledged her "whoops." Earlier this week it was announced that passport applications would no longer ask for "mother" and "father" of minors. Instead, applications will ask for "parent one" and "parent two" so that kids with two mommies or two daddies won't have their feelings hurt. Clinton acknowledged that she didn't realize she had approved removing "mother" and "father" altogether; so now the forms will ask for "mother or parent one" and "father or parent two." Now - how long before some group protests that fathers should be allowed to be parent one. :-)

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 9, 2011 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Gotcha, yello. I haven't bought a dead-tree Post in quite a while, primarily because of the 18-mile roundtrip to get to one. I always forget that the Wapo online publishes things days earlier and wasn't trying to 'correct' you, my friend. ;)

Posted by: talitha1 | January 9, 2011 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Can we just list the kids as Thing One and Thing Two?

I found the CC the funniest and most biting thing that WaPo has published in a long time. Its version of Article II seems dead on:

"No person except a natural-born Citizen who can produce video, photographic or eyewitness evidence of birth in a non-island American State shall be eligible to the Office of President."

I just dread the inevitable unfunny counterpoint. The only two (intentionally) funny conservatives are P. J. O'Rourke and Dennis Miller. And Dennis has been slipping lately.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 11:20 AM | Report abuse

LiT,
You perfectly executed a beautiful Triple Lindy.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Good morning everyone!!!
I have always tried to avoid the rabbits in the road in my driving career,but I may have to make an exception if I ever see one dancing.

Heading out briefly to watch Ravens/Chiefs,but after yesterdays upsets I guess I am a little worried.My hope is the Chiefs are a little nervous hosting their first playoff game in a few years and we can get off to a fast start.I understand that arrowhead is a very loud stadium.But I would think that would hold true with most stadiums.We do have the experience of playing road playoff games the last 2 years.I am hoping for an easy victory,really just winning by 1 would be fine(nerve racking) but fine.We have been winning most of our games just by a few points,so relaxing may not be in the cards.
I am hoping for a big day from Ray Rice,a solid day from Joe(cool) Flacco and I hope our defense continues it's trend of collecting turnovers.My prediction is Ravens 31 Chiefs 17,but I will settle for 31-30 ravens.

Have a great day everyone!!!

Purple with Envy

Posted by: greenwithenvy | January 9, 2011 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Monica Hesse took some jabs from folks who thought it was grinch-like that her piece "The people we hated in 2010" was on the website on Christmas Day.

She pointed out that it was an Outlook-section (which only appears in the Sunday paper) piece which ran on Sunday (the 26th) in the paper because that was the last Sunday of the year.

What she didn't point out was that it had been on the website since Thursday (like the Constitution piece cited above), or that certain readers just aren't gonna be receptive to certain writing no matter what the date. Achenbach, Krauthammer, Milbank, Petri, Weingarten, Will... just aren't everybody's cup of tea. Heck, I pay for the paper and don't expect to be enthralled with every bit of writing in it. Somebody who's reading it online has a lot of gall to be whining about the timing of an article that they chose to read!

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 11:33 AM | Report abuse

If you go to the Opinions page on the Web site, you will see the graphic that yello described regarding the "Conservative Constitution."

Posted by: -pj- | January 9, 2011 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Ooops - I definitely wasn't implying that Talitha was whining about anything!! Just sharing a tangentially-related tidbit.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 11:37 AM | Report abuse

ArmyBrat, why would you say the Komedy Konstitution piece was "inappropriate"? Care to elucidate?

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Has the storm passed? I started to weigh in yesterday but got frustrated reading the comments and so left it to a later time.

I'm contemplating lunch and particularly what I'm contemplating is some BBQ takeout. I'm musing on pulled pork.

Once the lunch question is dealt with it's mostly work that I have planned for the rest of the day. I'm starting a new job (same company, new position) Monday and so am trying to get out from under some stuff to complete the transition as soon as possible. We're also getting into some planning stuff for our next release and some organizational questions as well. A lot of writing and a little coding.

I guess the long, rambling point there is while it's not my ideal Sunday afternoon at least it's enjoyable work in an exciting time for me.

Btw, who won the NO/Seattle contest? I had to check out at the end of the third quarter. Interesting game.

Posted by: cowhand214 | January 9, 2011 11:46 AM | Report abuse

For anyone who missed that Monica Hesse story (which I enjoyed) and is interested, it's here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/23/AR2010122302194.html

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 11:51 AM | Report abuse

"mudge, I was wondering the same thing.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Two ESPN commercials I have to mention --

Ovechkin, in full on-ice kit, is rummaging through some files at SportsCenter when he's interrupted by an anchor. A quick "Russian spy" joke and the anchor departs, followed quickly by an Ovie scowl, a ceiling panel opening and another Russian-speaking Capital (Varlamov?) lowering a cable to spirit Ovie away.

The NBA RV is tooling down a dark wooded road when the driver jams on the breaks. A long pause is followed by a camera view out the windshield, where the Milwaukee Bucks mascot is frozen in the headlights for several seconds before dribbling into the trees.

They're funny people, those ESPNers... :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 11:57 AM | Report abuse

yello, I saw that column from Leonard Pitts, and I think it's more complicated than that. Yes, to refutations of Barbour's whitewashing. And yes, to remembering and passing on history, including the uncomfortable parts. But I'm thinking of a conversation I had with a 50-something African American elementary school teacher who took one of my classes last year. She was talking about how she presented the history of slavery and race relations to her young students (I wish I could remember the details of her approach), and how important it was not to turn it into simple demonization of historical white folks and victimization of historical black folks, because that wasn't healthy for any of the kids and perpetuated us vs. them thinking. When we see the present-day violence around the world that is motivated by memories of centuries-old affronts, it complicates the truth of "those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it" -- because what if those who do remember are feeling the need to perpetuate it? Of course whitewashing and ignorance are not the answer, but I wish that Pitts had recognized the complications of any relationship to history. Perhaps that is beyond the scope of an opinion column, but nevertheless, that's what this one made me wonder.

Posted by: -bia- | January 9, 2011 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Update from the hospital -- The neurosurgeon is an Afghanistan/Iraq vet, if I heard correctly.

Giffords still in critical condition.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 12:05 PM | Report abuse

Reports from the doctors are promising, not a lot of "devitalized" brain tissue, despite a bullet path through the left hemisphere. She has been responding to simple commands, even after surgery.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Not surprising they've had to temporarily remove significant skull to relieve swelling.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Everyone beside Giffords is out of the ICU...

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 12:19 PM | Report abuse

"Devitalized" eh? That's cute. I guess that's "mostly dead".

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Pretty much, Bob. Sometimes the niceties of language are called for.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 12:26 PM | Report abuse

Saw the Ovechkin "I'm not a spy" ad, Scotty and laughed.

As a big reader and fan of historical non-fiction (and as a practicing amateur naval historian), I always get a bit -- what's a good word? uncomfortable? irritate? -- with discussions about how schools don't teach/honor any given XYZ piece of history the writer is advocating. I'm sympathetic to the Pitts question about the history of slavery, Civil War, etc., and all similar matters.

My general objection is that pretty much ALL of history is pretty much very poorly taught in schools, and that just about anyone can single out their own particular parcel and bemoan -- rightfully -- that it isn't being taught properly or at all. My own particular bete noire is that military history, especially WWII, is poorly taught. But I recognize that so is everything else.

But I also recognize that to a large degree teaching in general and teaching history or English or whatever, is a zero-sum game, that there are only X amount of classroom hours available in any given k-12 program. And I recognize as an editor one has to make draconian cuts in all that information. Teaching history is simply cramming 20 pounds of stuff in a 5-pound bag. But so is teaching science, or civics, or whatever.

Then throw in the idea that each of us has a separate core of "special interest" stuff we ought to learn, usually about our own ethnic origins, specific religions and religious backgrounds (whether one is a believer or not), the geography of where we were born and raised, the list goes on and on.

Sometimes you hear someone complain that in America we don't teach anyone about the history and culture of, say, Togo. Well, no, we don't. And there's 150 or so other countries who are also slighted, so Togoans don't need to get bent out of shape. Every outlander seems to expect that we should be better educated about THEIR country. I have yet to hear one of them say their people need to learn more about the U.S. -- even when they've moved here. Sorry, Lithuania, I cannot name your capital. My apologies, Burma, or whoever you are now, but I don't get all your memos, and anyway you aren't making it easy on any of us.

But given its centrality not only in our history but also its application to today's race relations and related questions (such as Barbour's lunacy), yes, Pitts is much more right than wrong. Everyone needs a pretty solid ground in that particular realm.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 12:35 PM | Report abuse

My town's activity of the day is sitting and waiting for a winter storm. Most years, once or twice a winter, we get an inch or two of something white that overjoys the kids, who rush out to build baby snowmen, then melts the next day, if not sooner. Now we have a forecast of 5-10 inches, and everyone is awaiting it nervously. At the moment we're in the band scheduled for sleet, then snow, then sleet, with bands of all snow to the north of us and freezing rain to the south of us. You just know those freezing rain folks are going to lose power. So we're just hoping that sleet/freezing rain boundary doesn't move any further north. And wishing we'd gotten someone out here to check out our gas fireplace when we couldn't get it lit earlier this winter. And trying to get motivated to plan lectures for Monday when I know it's going to be a snow day.

Posted by: -bia- | January 9, 2011 12:43 PM | Report abuse

If a person puts up a website listing people I wanted dead and then a group of people actually follow through and kill the people on that list he/she created, doesn't that make it a conspiracy to capital murder which is punishable by life without parole or death?

The person who posted the "hit list" is equally responsible for the crime as the person who pulled the trigger.

It's mass murder, which makes it capital murder not just first degree murder. There was an overt step in the conspiracy by posting a "hit list".

Although the person who posted the "hit list" may not know the other co-conspirators who will actually follow through with the murders, the law does not require to know their identity to still be considered a conspiracy. This was put in place to eliminate loop holes related to organized crime.

There is no difference between a person handing a "hit list" to certain people or posting the "hit list" on a website for millions of people to see. The overt step in furtherance of the act is the posting of a "hit list" and for co-conspirators to commit the act of capital murder. If it was just saying some people should be killed or maybe two people talking in the bar about a crime, it would not be a conspiracy. But it's a conspiracy if 1 or more people in the group actually research and work out the details, buy a gun and bullets, travel to the scene where the crime will take place, pull the trigger, flee from the scene of the crime, cover up the crime (such as taking down the "hit list"), etc.

The hit list on the website has already been taken down from public view. Who actually took it down and why? Was the website taken down for evidence or was it an attempt by the co-conspirators to cover up any link to the crime?

Will the FBI actually arrest the people who posted the hit list? Maybe not right away-- a Grand Jury would need to indict them because they are high profile politicians and their careers would end if they were wrongly arrested. But once they are indicted and arrested, then it's pretty certain what the outcome of trial will be because that's the purpose of the Grand Jury. Of course, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

No doubt there are armed guards standing outside of U.S. House of Representative Gabrielle Gifford's hospital room to ensure there are no further attacks on her. A protection detail seems to have been sent by the FBI to the other 19 people on that "hit list" to ensure that they will be safe in case there are other co-conspirators who may act to assassinate them.

I think the following few weeks will be very interesting. It may be the biggest scandal in the history of politics-- even bigger than President Nixon's Watergate.

Posted by: tbriker | January 9, 2011 12:44 PM | Report abuse

Gifford's apparently good chance for recovery is rare, and it looks as though Giffords' new intern, Daniel Hernandez, did great good by promptly applying pressure to Giffords' wound (Arizona Republic via Washington Monthly). Getting the victims to the hospital, and the hospital's care, seem to have gone extraordinarily well.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 9, 2011 12:46 PM | Report abuse

*trying to beat back a headache and incipient fever and having to cancel a very-looked-forward-to event this evening*

Other than that, I somehow powered through laundry, plant watering, "ledger demain" (a/k/a "book work"), and I do believe I'm gonna go lay down.

Mudge -- I agree with you about the teaching of history (and pretty much anything else). I recall the so-called "history" books I had in high school (and earlier), which were basically a "white wash" (truly) and were otherwise a rah-rah-USA tract. When I started reading books about other countries, written by other-countryians, as well as in other languages, I was able to both put things together and parse them, with the understanding that home-country biases exist all over the world. But at least the condescension factor exhibited in what I had to read in school was largely absent.

Ivansmom -- do tell Beatrice that when she dances, it's as cute as all get out, as opposed to, well, you know .........

Posted by: ftb3 | January 9, 2011 12:48 PM | Report abuse

bia, when you went to the store pre-storm (you DID, didn't you??), how was the tinfoil holding up? Seems to be a lot of Boodle visitors in need of hats today. *raised unibrow* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 9, 2011 12:48 PM | Report abuse

Today in military history: In somewhere around 1850, Sherman blew up the Parliament in Atlanta, and began his March to the Sea, where he would be stopped by Patton & John Paul Jones.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 12:48 PM | Report abuse

The deaths of all those yesterday is tragic, but the 9-year-old is particularly poignant. Her poor parents, and the neighbor - not clear what happened to him/her. I thought it was very sad when I heard the ages of 3 of the victims - 76, 76, 79. What a shame.

I agree about the teaching of history - that it should be done better - but it is difficult. That's why things like the Holocaust Museum are important. With all the discussion of problems with school, I keep coming back to how important it is to get kids to read, and to be engaged in the world outside themselves, so that they can overcome the deficiencies in their schools. I hope the schools take advantage of using Ken Burns' series on the Civil War, and Eyes on the Prize (oh, Juan), etc.

Posted by: seasea1 | January 9, 2011 12:49 PM | Report abuse

'mudge, I always assumed that whatever was taught as "history" in school was the official version, more political than factual.

I think I recall 5th grade Florida history as praising the KKK and Knights of the White Camellia for expelling the horrible carpetbaggers.

The World Book Encyclopedia featured "The War Between the States". It was probably the Confederate version.

World War II was available only in highly sanitized versions. Franklin D. Roosevelt was somehow avoided. Too controversial.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 9, 2011 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Good question, Scotty. I sent J -- what a good husband -- and he somehow failed to check the stock of tinfoil. I am happy to report, however, that we are well stocked up on bread and toilet paper, so we ought to be able to weather the storm.

Posted by: -bia- | January 9, 2011 1:00 PM | Report abuse

When I viewed the shooter's videos and YouTube montages, they just screamed "this person is deranged and really needs help".

The discussion that will come from this episode (hopefully) is that there are literally thousands of similar videos and montages out there... and those people are NOT deranged.

There are a lot of people that make stuff just like his for sport or for one-upmanship. As a result, people who view the stuff from the shooter just shrug and think same old, same old.

The fact that videos like his are no longer shocking is what really is shocking.

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Some speculation that shooter was/is simply a meth head. I viewed the YouTube rantings and it seems plausible to me. I also suspect that many righties, are, like Glenn Beck, Ayn Rand, Hitler, etc., using amphetamines. Toxicology reports often get quashed. Former drug bust, but unclear which drug:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/08/arizona-shooting-suspects-record-showed-minor-offenses/
And, evidence Loughner influenced by racist nut-cabal
http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0111/DHS_memo_suggests_suspect_influenced_by_racist_group.html?showall

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 9, 2011 1:10 PM | Report abuse

I continue to love Jason Linkins:
"So look! Are you running a political campaign and are having trouble conveying toughness or resoluteness or moxie or courage without talking about guns? Please, please, call me or email me. I will help you, regardless of your political belief, and I will do it for free. I have a thesaurus and I read a lot, and I assure you, there are alternatives that convey what you want to say that are just as awesome and inspiring as any you'd encounter."

"Let me help you. I can help you! The next time you feel like you have to say, "Don't Retreat, Reload!" just contact me and I will help you figure out -- actually, wait: on that one, why couldn't you just stop at "Don't Retreat?" JUST STOP THERE, OKAY?"

Posted by: seasea1 | January 9, 2011 1:15 PM | Report abuse

bia, stay safe in the coming storm. As long as you have the essentials and warm clothes in case the power goes out, you will be fine. Can you cook w/o power? If not, put some boiling water in a thermos for hot chocolate ;-)

Posted by: badsneakers | January 9, 2011 1:20 PM | Report abuse

WaPo hed: Ariz. lawmaker remains an [sic] induced coma on a ventilator

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 1:32 PM | Report abuse

Ditto the 12:35 comment for art history. I take issue with the comment (now history? deleted?) in the Kit that Giffords' meeting outside the Tucson Safeway should have been a Norman Rockwell moment.

What's important to remember about Rockwell is that Rockwell once said that "I paint life as I would like it to be."

Perhaps that fantasy element so pronounced in his art would drive his bouts of depression and his consultations with the psychologist Eric Erickson at the Austin Riggs Center in Stockbridge, Mass., after Rockwell relocated his studio from Arlington, Vt.

Recall, too, that Rockwell was far better near the end of his career at depicting racial inequality rather than gender inequality. The strongest images of women that Rockwell created were "Wet Paint" (serious young woman or a Sunday painter?), and the WWII working women, "Liberty Girl" and "Rosie the Riveter."

Other Rockwell renderings from the WWII period are quite sexist, "Norman Rockwell visits a Ration Board," and particularly offensive is Rockwell's rendering of the inside of a jury deliberation room, "The Holdout."

The Four Freedoms series that Rockwell also created during the WWII years don't show women except in typical, traditional, conforming roles. "Freedom of Speech" has but part of one woman's face--only the eyes and nose, a strand of hair and a hat--as part of this town meeting in rural New England (this 1943 image referred to recently at the close of one of NYT Tim Egan's op-eds). In "Freedom from Fear," we see the good mommy, standing with the working, newpaper-reading daddy, watching their children slumber. "Freedom of Religion" shows two women's full faces--the closest to the viewer is elderly--and their praying hands most prominently. In Freedom from Want (displayed on the Washington Post's homepage last Thanksgiving) it is the bespectacled, ample and aproned grandmotherly figure who sets an oversized turkey and platter on the family dinner table.

If these last three depictions aren't now-dated reinforcements of "Kinder, Kuche, Kirche," then I don't what is.

For the most contemporary female figure in a Rockwell graphic, see "The Right to Know," completed during the Vietnam War, where if you're sharp-eyed, you'll see Rockwell himself.

Yesterday's events in Arizona were shocking and tragic, the impact perhaps even more forcefully made because the intended target was a woman legislator.

Rockwell died in 1978, two years after Maryland's Barbara Milkulski was first elected to the House of Representatives for the first time, she now the longest serving woman in the U.S. Senate, feted just this past week. Milkulski moved to the Senate in 1987, where 15 women had served before her.

If it's innocence and fantasy in America that you want, by all means pick Norman Rockwell. If it's a hard-nosed look at reality, then take some art history classes and by all means pick another artist. Rockwell doesn't wear well for 2011.

Posted by: laloomis | January 9, 2011 1:36 PM | Report abuse

WaPo front page hed: Ariz. laws among most lax in nation

Which is irrelevant to the shooting. It's not like Arizona forgot to outlaw mass killing. But when you get to the Politics page, one sees it is about GUN laws, not laws in general. So, why does the front page hed omit reference to gun laws, the one single factor that gives the hed coherence?

One might also argue that making "laws" plural is part of the problem. If "law" had been singular, one might have inferred that there was one specific problem (assuming everyone but Wilbrod would allow a singular "law" to be applied to what might in fact be a handful of plural laws collectively applied to a single theme or idea, i.e. gun permissiveness).

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Good afternoon, eveyone. I'm late to the party, but, given the subject, I'm not sorry about that. I am sorry about the death and suffering of innocent people.

No surprise to me that the emergency response was quick and effective. Arizona has had some great fire/emergency service leaders whose work has improved service delivery all over North America.

When will we ever give law enforcement (all levels, local, state, federal) and mental health services the funding and tools to prevent such an event? Never, I suppose.

Hi Cassandra! I hope you had a good morning at church. How is your new pastor doing? We had a good service. At the end, our pastor announced we had given 104% of budget last year. He says he appreciated that, since anyone over 100% goes straight to him...that got a good laugh.

We too are anxiously awaiting a major winter storm, to arrive around daybreak tomorrow. I'm prepared, I went to the grocery store yesterday and got milk. Bread and TP we have in abundance already.

Posted by: slyness | January 9, 2011 1:44 PM | Report abuse

Part of my conversation with Cassandra was not just what is taught but how it is taught and that is the crux of the Pitts column as well. He was impressed with how Jewish children were being exposed to and internalizing the history of the Holocaust in a way that emphasized how it was a terrible wrong. And not being Jewish or a Biblical scholar, a lot of Jewish history and culture does emphasize the "The tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat." angle as this Passover song explains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34atu3WGUgc

Black History at the primary and secondary level tends to emphasize the achievements of individuals, often against great adversity: Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, George Washington Carver, Jackie Robinson, Tuskegee Airman, etc. It's a very long catalog both aspirational and inspirational, but is light on why they had so much to overcome.

Whenever a leader or teacher such as Jeremiah Wright starts on a deeper storyline he is derided as a angry hater. There has to be a middle ground. I understand that small minds don't always accept nuance, but slavery is a black and white, so to speak, enough issue that we can unequivocally deride as having been wrong. At least I would hope so.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 2:09 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, ole Norman was quite a jerk. That goodness we don't hacks like that cluttering up magazine covers now.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 2:14 PM | Report abuse

One of his paintings portaying old ladies gossiping was actually done with a male model.
Rockwell always used photographs and live models for his work, and he composed his photographs very carefully. I enjoyed the Rockwell exhibit at the Smithsonian last summer.

I think one of the things I would like to get covered in any discussion of historical inequality, punishment, is how strongly society may punish those who tried to change the status quo, not just these downtrodden by it. Whites who wanted to treat blacks better were hindered by the law, social approval, and even retaliation, including crosses on their lawns.

Rosie the Riveter is a major painting in terms of portraying the working woman and patriotism, and I wouldn't complain that Rockwell only did one of that kind of painting, given the period in which he lived. As we know too well, sexism continued well after WWII and through the 60's and 70's and we are still fighting sexists born well after WWII.

As for racial inequality, I don't really know what you're talking about. Could you name the specific paintings you're thinking about?

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 2:16 PM | Report abuse

Can't we just pray for the recovery of all those who survived this senseless shooting. Let's not start going to the extremes like Mrs. Brady did, instead of pursuing the long relationship between the Bushes and the Hinckleys. At a time when counties are having to cut back on psychological services, here we can see the possible results of that unfortunate fact.
helpfuled

Posted by: edmbenson | January 9, 2011 2:20 PM | Report abuse

Right, baldinho - videos like that should be shocking, not ho-hum. We have come to accept truly disturbed expression as a form of entertainment. Among other drawbacks is our inability to sort out the truly disturbed.

Assuming tbriker posed a serious question and is not a troll, I'll answer his/her question: No. Posting a list of people one wants dead (not saying that happened, but that is tbriker's characterization) on the Web or in any other public forum for a general audience will not, without more, constitute conspiracy to first degree murder even if someone else comes along and kills one or more of those people. There is a vital and important world of legal difference between a writer handing a "hit list" to certain people, to carry out, and a writer posting the "hit list" in a public forum for millions of people to see. The latter may or may not constitute a crime, but conspiracy to murder is not it.

We have some nice, gentle, sparse snowflakes coming down. I hope they stick around. (hee hee) Stay safe, bia.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 2:21 PM | Report abuse

Ivansmom, why is there a difference under the law for that?

Freedom of speech is one thing, but if any major religious leader posted a hit list to millions of devoted followers, I don't think we'd say that wasn't a clear call to murder. Likewise, a major political figure...

Who can forget "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?" Granted, because he was the king, he wasn't chargeable for murder and foisted the blame onto others.

Is THAT why the legal distinction exists?

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 2:26 PM | Report abuse

I didn't say it wouldn't be viewed as a clear call to murder, Wilbrod. I said it wouldn't fit the legal definition of a conspiracy to commit murder.

The distinction has nothing to do with class or rank, and everything to do with the actions of the perpetrators. In essence, and avoiding legal jargon, conspiracy requires an agreement between specific people to do a specific thing, with a specific action taken to aid completion of the goal.

The king wasn't charged with murder because, practically speaking, who was going to do it? He was (a) divine and (b) the head of state and therefore the person who charged people with murder. Also, the perpetrators, when caught, insisted they had acted on their own. The king was shocked, shocked at their actions.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 2:37 PM | Report abuse

mudge, simply this: do you want the political vitriol turned down a notch, or turned down a notch only by those with whom you disagree? Cole's got a right to say whatever he wants, and the Post can print whatever it wants, and the decision to print this was made long before the events in Tucson. But I think the timing was still really, really bad.

There is some humor coming out, though.
Consider tbriker's post from 12:44, arguing that Palin et alia are co-conspirators, guilty of capital murder. Marvelous satire. I particularly liked this part:

"Will the FBI actually arrest the people who posted the hit list? Maybe not right away-- a Grand Jury would need to indict them because they are high profile politicians and their careers would end if they were wrongly arrested. But once they are indicted and arrested, then it's pretty certain what the outcome of trial will be because that's the purpose of the Grand Jury. Of course, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. "

Hmm - the FBI can arrest people who commit crimes LONG BEFORE a Grand Jury indicts them. I did like the part about it's pretty certain that they'll be found guilty at trial because "that's the purpose of he Grand Jury." Um, no, not so much, but funny.

Whatever.

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 9, 2011 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Ok, Ivansmom. Back to more normal examples...what are those actions?

You wrote: "There is a vital and important world of legal difference between a writer handing a "hit list" to certain people, to carry out."

Do you have to prove the actual handing, e-mail, telephoning, or whatever? Does intent to have those specific people commit murder have to be proved? Or, would the implict promise of a reward should those people somehow die be enough?

I'm thinking that, for instance, "72 virgins in paradise to whoever offs X" certainly is clear enough to be considered a contract job, even if it's not aimed at any one person specifically.

What is the law governing death threats? Do you actually have to mail it in order to be charged with a felony?

I'd like to know in case I'm ever actually threatened what my options would be.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Worst 4th down play ever. (by the Chiefs).

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 2:48 PM | Report abuse

Here is a pretty good tweet I saw last night:

If this was a school shooting, the student who posted the cross-hair map would be in custody right now. (Rep Gabrielle Giffords) #Arizona

http://twitter.com/#!/39forks/status/23884145344118784

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 3:17 PM | Report abuse

laloomis, I'm not following. First, JA's reference to Rockwell is still there. Maybe you missed it since the kit has been updated. But a histroy of Rockwell at a time like this? Where'd that come from? Are you trying to say that the Rockwellian image never really existed so it's an unreasonable point for JA to make? Or is it that Rockwell's bouts of depression somehow liken him to the shooter, and there but for the Grace of God go he? About his death two years after Mikulski was first sent to The Hill...that's a big stretch in order to link them, no? Would be like linking me to Gina Lollobrigida...it can be done, but is that reasonable?

Changing topics...ever notice how often Crazy Train is played at football games? What's that about? Also, things have gone much better for the Ravens since I got back inside and changed into my purple shoes. Must be something to it.

Off to deliver a child safely, and will likely miss a lot of the next game. Have a happy afternoon/evening all.

Posted by: LostInThought | January 9, 2011 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Bless you LiT,I always knew you were a good luck charm and all I got to say is HEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAPPPPPPP!!!!

Posted by: greenwithenvy | January 9, 2011 3:43 PM | Report abuse

I thought I was pretty clear, Wilbrod, without getting into tedious factual detail which necessarily differs from case to case. As I'm sure you know, each state has its own criminal law, as does the federal government, which apply in their respective jurisdictions. In addition, conspiracy to murder (that's what tbriker was talking about) is an extremely narrowly focused crime.

One common thread is that, for the purposes of this discussion, "murder" means first degree murder and involves the intent to kill a particular person. Given that, yes, to support a conviction for conspiracy to murder one needs an agreement to kill a particular victim. An implied promise of reward should someone happen to die is not enough. Offerning 72 virgins in heaven also would not constitute a contract job (a different crime), since the remuneration generally has to be nonfictional, even if it hasn't been paid by the time the crime is done.

If you don't mail a death threat, you can't be charged with the felony of sending threatening letters through the mail. There's lots of other potential crimes there. If you refrain from making death threats you should be fine.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 3:45 PM | Report abuse

No problem, Ivansmom. I just wish a lot of people out there utilizing the mass media would do so.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Our nice gentle snowflakes have turned to sleet. This is not nearly as charming.

In honor of the gloomy weather I have a pot of red chile brewing. Sirloin and chuck steak were on sale yesterday, so that's the meat, along with onions, garlic, tomatoes & tomato paste, and a bunch of chile spices and cumin. Purists, hide your eyes - in a while I'll add some leftover pinto beans from last week's beans and ham hock.

We have cold weather and a crazy schedule all week, so I'm putting together hearty meals that can be warmed up quickly. Later tonight I'll make a lasagna to freeze and bake. Tomorrow I'll roast a chicken.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 3:51 PM | Report abuse

Wilbrod, it would be impossible for Loomis to list a bunch of Rockwell's work showing racial inequality. Her point would be the total or near-total absence of black people in any manifestation, not their presence in an inequal manner. I would agree with her on that.

But I think I would disagree with her about the use of Rockwell in the phrase "create a Rockwell moment," or whatever it was. In context, the phrase in part agrees with Loomis that Rockwell painted stereotypes. In defense of Rockwell, he was NOT trying to be a realist, he understood perfectly well what he was doing, and he was getting rich and famous -- and much beloved -- for it. It's kind of like asking Burl Ives to start singing rap.

yello, your characterization of the bulk of Jewish history and culture as "emphasiz[ing] the "The[y] tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat" is both stone ignorant and quite offensive.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 3:51 PM | Report abuse

Curmudgeon - I have to wonder how you're able to estimate what was or was not emphasized in the "Jewish history" to which yellojkt was exposed, which I assumed was his reference.

That you should find such an emphasis ignorant or offensive doesn't surprise me, but that's hardly yellojkt's fault.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 3:58 PM | Report abuse

I like the idea of Burl Ives rapping. Hey, Debby Harry did it.

LiT, I know, just know, that you were off to take a child someplace where it would meet someone else, then come back. When you said you had to go deliver a child safely, though, I though of babies and home births and midwivery, and was alarmed and impressed. Also I wondered, given your impressive knowledge of and ability to wear fancy shoes, what kind of shoes would you wear for that?

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 4:01 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, I think you misread what Loomis said. She was talking very specifically about late Rockwell, not Rockwell overall.

I was wondering if she meant the classic painting called "The Problem We all Live
with" showing desegregation.

To quote from the Library of Congress exhibition site: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/brown/brown-aftermath.html

"The painting, which was published in Look magazine, January 14, 1964, portrayed a young African American girl, escorted by federal marshals, as she made her way through a hostile environment toward a newly integrated school. The painting was based on the ordeal of Ruby Bridges in New Orleans, Louisiana."

Rockwell painted a historic moment there to tell a story.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 4:04 PM | Report abuse

Woo hoo! We're back to snow!

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Curmudgeon, you say "The[y] tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat" is both stone ignorant and quite offensive." Perhaps it depends on who says it and under what circumstances. I have heard this so-called joke made hundreds of times by Jews. As a Jew myself, I don't find it offensive, just stupid. Maybe yello heard it from some Jewish friends.

Posted by: orawh | January 9, 2011 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Slyness, pastor seems to be doing ok. I guess he's feeling the congregation out. He did encourage the church family to help me and the lady that work with the after school program. Don't know how that's going to turn out. Since my hearing aid fell apart, it's been very difficult to work with the kids. We don't have that many, but one needs to be able to hear! The kids have a reading assignment every night.

I stopped at the store after church, and the bread is totally gone. A lot of people in the store too. I'm hoping it's just a dusting, not crazy about snow or ice.

Leonard Pitts usually hits the nail on the head. I think young people would need a certain amount of maturity in order to process the abuse and violence that goes along with the history of slavery. And they would need to see their lives being better, so much better than their ancestors, and in some cases that's not true. True, we're no longer working in the field and in the master's house, but poverty puts us in the shanties and without the basic necessities of life. It is hard to teach history, and teach it accurately. Of course, that works well for some who would rather not have the completed history told anyway. That's why I've always felt our country should have a true dialogue about our history of slavery, and then move to apologies and reconcilliation. I called that moving forward with a clean slate. What's we've done is piled junk on top of the mess, and every now and then, we go back to square one. A bunch of hurt and hate that strangles any attempt at moving forward. Always seething, ready to boil over.

And yes, we have moved forward to some extent, President Obama, for example, yet it's still a pot ready to boil over. Hate is an awful thing, it really is. And there's enough of it to go around, not just on one side.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 9, 2011 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Congrats on your return to snow, Ivansmom. We started with snow, switched to sleet, and are now in a lull. That hour of precipitation was enough to scare the university, though -- just got the announcement of no school tomorrow. To be fair, based on the forecast and the nearby radar, I expect that that will end up being the right decision. Still, preemptive cancellations are wimpy.

Posted by: -bia- | January 9, 2011 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Anybody got their latest erratum/upgrade sheet to the NFL Sports Cliche Casebook handy? Bill Cowher advises Michael Vick to "play within the game" (he said it twice, and especially want him to do it early, rather than later).

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 4:16 PM | Report abuse

Sheriff dupnik has a point, although I'd extend it to include America as a whole. Apologies if someone has linked to this already.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/sheriff-clarence-dupnik-a_n_806303.html

Posted by: -dbG- | January 9, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Rockwell seems to have been constrained somewhat by his customers. My recollection is that the Saturday Evening Post wanted white people on its covers, and he obliged.

The NY Times has the criminal complaint against Mr Loughner, filed by the FBI with respect to killing and attempting to kill federal employees.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 9, 2011 4:20 PM | Report abuse

Maybe not hundreds of times but very often. In "jokes" e-mailed to me.

Posted by: orawh | January 9, 2011 4:23 PM | Report abuse

I think Burl woulda been more crunk.

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 4:25 PM | Report abuse

orawh -- I'm an "MoT" too, and I've always found that "joke" to be kinda funny in an "insider" sort of way.

Perhaps it's like jokes about lawyers -- I find them funnier when lawyers tell it and less so if a non-lawyer tells it. It's the same here. I remember living in Stockholm when Woody Allen's movie "Sleepers" was showing. As I recall, I was the only person laughing at the Jewish jokes (because, presumably, I was the only one who "got" them).

Congrats, gwe on your Ravens.

Posted by: ftb3 | January 9, 2011 4:27 PM | Report abuse

And, the predictable response to his comments:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/sheriff-clarence-dupnik-a_n_806303.html

orawh, agreed.

Posted by: -dbG- | January 9, 2011 4:28 PM | Report abuse

Maybe where I go the line "They tried to kill us. They failed. Let's eat" was from the the title of the song I linked to. A rather funny song. I remember fondly when this was a humor blog.

And the particular piece of history that triggered this whole discussion was the opening paragraph of Leonard Pitt's column. But since some people know better than to follow my links, here it is:

"Six years ago, I went to Auschwitz. I remember being surprised at the number of Israeli school groups there, some literally wrapped in their national flag.

"Israeli school kids, it turns out, often visit the death camp as a means of understanding the genocide that decimated their people. Learning this left me, not for the first time, impressed with the way Jews have institutionalized Holocaust education."

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/05/2000893/dont-let-others-define-us.html#ixzz1AZk0giHz

My knowledge of Jewish history is pretty much gleaned from childhood viewings of The Ten Commandments, listening a few too many times to the Fiddler on the Roof soundtrack, and the collected works of Mel Brooks, but I don't recall too many times when some group or another wasn't trying to kill Jews. But feel free to edumucate me.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 4:34 PM | Report abuse

I understood precisely what Joel meant when he referenced a Rockwell moment. It reminded me a bit of the way "The Homecoming" was referenced in "Broadcast News." That this was interpreted in any other way, and certainly in a way deemed worthy of criticism, seems curious to me.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | January 9, 2011 4:35 PM | Report abuse

Thanks Ivansmom, for that wonderful explanation. I am always grateful for the breadth of true professional expertise we have here in the boodle.

Posted by: RD_Padouk | January 9, 2011 4:37 PM | Report abuse

ftb3, I have another take on Jewish jokes. I think many times it's a defensive though unconscious strategy. Sort of , if I laugh at myself, it prevents others from laughing at me. I have been living in Israel for over 50 years and Israeli humor is quite different from American Jewish humor. There is no need to feel self-conscious about being Jewish and therefore the jokes have a different theme. The "The[y] tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat" type of jokes have been sent to me by Jewish friends in the States. I guess I just don't appreciate the Jackie Mason type of humor. No offense intended.

Posted by: orawh | January 9, 2011 4:47 PM | Report abuse

Another point about acts having consequences. In the Clinton Assault Weapons Ban era (1994-2004) the sale of semi autos were limited to guns with 10-round magazines (for civilians, NYC cops could still spray their 17-19 rounds at will). Bush let the AWB expired in 2004. The Glock 19 the young man bought in November had an original magazine of either 17, 19 or, unlikely but possible, 33 (this one would be what I would call the Zombie invasion magazine). He apparently never got beyond his first magazine as he was interfered with by a woman who had been shot when he tried to put in a fresh clip and then he was tackled down. (the woman deserves a medal of some sort)
Maximum number of rounds round prior to the AWB sunset: 11. After 2004: 18, 19 or, maybe, 34. At what point in the sequence did he killed the 9 year old becomes an interesting question.

Cringing point: he was suspended from school and a condition of re-admission was apparently to provide a mental health assessment (he was being disruptive in class) yet he bought the gun & ammo legally. Too crazy for school but not enough to be prevented to buy a decent semi-auto with spare magazines.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 9, 2011 4:47 PM | Report abuse

I second RDP's thanks, Ivansmom. I thought that was very interesting. Hopefully I'll never have to worry about such definitions anywhere outside of intellectual curiosity/exercise.

Posted by: cowhand214 | January 9, 2011 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Yes, cowhand, I am happiest when my friends never need to understand what I know, except out of curiosity or as an intellectual exercise.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 4:59 PM | Report abuse

On a lighter note we had a good outing in a forest nearby. We saw 2 ravens, a good omen of things to happen for gwe's team, then 2 ruffed grouses. The Very Large Puppy had an even better one; he pursued a hare. No need to say the hare is safe and sound. The VLP's pursuit, more accurately, the charge, reached the "comical" level of incompetence. The local vegetation took the brunt of the damage.

The garlic butter, orange & red onion chicken roasting in the oven is tormenting me. I'll send a stiff e-mail to Martha if it doesn't work.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 9, 2011 5:01 PM | Report abuse

You are going to have to read this post quickly because I am relatively certain that it will be taken down !

Shooting in Tuscon possible false flag, real target was Federal Judge :

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/01/top-us-federal-judge-assassinated-after-threat-to-obama-agenda/

What do you think about this article ?

helpfuled

Posted by: edmbenson | January 9, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Tinfoil Hat time.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 9, 2011 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Unless the server has such limited space that they have to free up room for the next story, I can't imagine why there would be any rush to remove that article. It's no more incendiary than an average slate of stories on Fox News.

Just out of curiosity, why would it be a bigger story if the judge who presented a mild impediment to Obama's nefarious schemes was the target, rather than the Congresswoman who also got in the way?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 5:17 PM | Report abuse

Yes, thank you Ivansmom. It's refreshing to hear some real law just for once on this particular boodle.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 5:19 PM | Report abuse

Although Armybrat's summary of citizenship law was very useful, it's a shame it has to be clarified like that-- over and over and over...

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 5:24 PM | Report abuse

Bob, it was yello who used the word "empasize," not me. Read a little better, please.

I think a person who admits having very little knowledge about a subject generally should refrain from then trying to characterize it. If on the other hand it was merely a joke he was repeating, he probably ought to set it up a little better. And I admit I was also operating under the general rubric that generally speaking its better for people telling a racial or ethnic or religious or whatever joke to be a member of that group. Blacks can tell black jokes, gays can tell gay jokes, Jews can tell Jew jokes, etc. I recognize not everyone agrees with that, but I tend to think its true. If I had been aware that yello was just repeating somebody else's joke I wouldn't have said anything.

I like Jackie Mason humor. I just want Jackie telling it, not somebody who has now twice admitted he knows very little about Jews. If he had said, "I don't know much about black people, but they..[fill in the blank]" everyone here would have their hair on fire.

Or as orawh said, "Perhaps it depends on who says it and under what circumstances." Yes, exactly.

And I have problems with the "mechanics" of the joke telling. First, if you're going to take someone else's joke, just go ahead and tell it. Don't bury it at the tail end of a serious discussion about racism, and don't preface it by saying you don't know anything about the subject first; in part that disguises the fact that a joke is coming, and it isn't necessary to the set-up. If you're going to tell a dumb blond joke (lame or not, borrowed or not), just go ahead and tell it. But don't append it to a discussion of something serious, and don't lead into it by saying, "I was talking to a friend the other day who has platinum blond hair, and though I don't know anything about fair-haired Scandinavians with that hair coloring, she said..."

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 5:50 PM | Report abuse

We still have nothing falling from the sky. Something interesting had better happen overnight, or everyone will be whining about the anticlimax. Nevertheless, the local news just showed various cars in the vicinity that had managed to slide off the road after crossing overpasses. Huh, the bridges froze before the roads, whodathunkit?

Posted by: -bia- | January 9, 2011 5:53 PM | Report abuse

orawh -- none taken. I can't stand Jackie Mason, btw. I'm also completely nonobservant, as a J. Completely and seriously. Nobody's gonna get between me and a bowl of shrimp, for example.

That being said, there ain't nobody gonna ask if I'm a believer before they try to kill me. I always (figuratively) have my bags packed and my track shoes on -- which will make things easier once I have my knee replaced and my back fixed.

I love intellectual humor -- nothing else is as funny to me.

Posted by: ftb3 | January 9, 2011 5:54 PM | Report abuse

Wow! I didn't realize Obama had completely overturned the once free United Status in just less than two years. If I hadn't read that EUTimes article with its bevy of reputable sources I would have continued to believe he hadn't gotten as much done as I had hoped he would by this point in his term.

Now that I know, I better make sure all my public statements are in line with whatever his policies are to avoid being beaten or killed by the Roving Killer Hit Death Squads of Doom and the DNC.

*Goes off in search of tin foil*

Posted by: cowhand214 | January 9, 2011 5:59 PM | Report abuse

I guarantee that in workplaces all over the country tomorrow people will be discussing edmbenson's robopost email. Many of them will "believe" it, too. After all, I have seen hundreds of emails fervently claiming that the shooter was a radical leftist.

Sigh.

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 6:01 PM | Report abuse

bia, if only they'd put up signs to that effect, right?

Posted by: cowhand214 | January 9, 2011 6:01 PM | Report abuse

I bet edmbenson's robopost email either started or is at least a huge topic on the typical sites: redstate, freerepublic, drudge, etc.

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 6:02 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, you're not a fan of glib references to Jewish history. Your point is well-taken. As it happens, I tend toward glibness myself on occasion, and am sensitive to criticisms of glibness. I hope you'll be sensitive to my sensitivities in the future, and I accept your (unspoken) apology.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 6:09 PM | Report abuse

ftb3,It's very hard to come by a bowl of shrimps here but I managed to do so when my kids took me out to celebrate my birthday a few weeks ago. Where can I find intellectual humor? I'm sure I would love it.

Posted by: orawh | January 9, 2011 6:15 PM | Report abuse

Bob, in ordinary circumstances I might not have minded it too much, but in a kit about Giffords -- who is Jewish -- being shot in the head, and a ton of Boodle commentary about it, I find that a joke about "They tried to kill us; we survived; let's eat" just a bit insensitive. Other jokes on different topics, fine. But no, I'm in no mood to tolerate jokes about people trying to kill Jews. Not today. That some of you don't see that connection is interesting.

Now, I will offer up a mea culpa that I am perhaps a bit hypersensitive on the subject of Demosratic politicians getting shot in the head. In 1964, as student council president, I laid a wreath on JFK's grave at Arlington. In 1968 I had covered Bobby Kennedy, and was signed up to work for him; my ex-- was on his funeral train, and I almost was. So yeah... I'm probably a bit over-tetchy on this one topic.

It's probably OK to make jokes about killing Jews when maniacs aren't actually trying to do it, ya know?

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 9, 2011 6:23 PM | Report abuse

Snort, Bob-S.

Speaking of sensitivity, there are people who complain "deaf" isn't a PC term and insist on other terms.

I go "I never had any hearing to impair or lose, and it's impossible,not hard for me to hear. So where does that leave the English language, then?"

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 6:30 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, I hope I can call you that, I didn't see the connection between Giffords being Jewish and the crack about "They tried to kill us; we survived; let's eat." In a much earlier post you told me that she is a member of our tribe. I already knew that, which is the reason I started reading the blog or kit as you call it to begin with, something I haven't done in a long time. It was/is in all the local papers here in Israel. Well, it's 1:30 a.m. here and I guess I really should get to bed. The Achenblog is very addictive, which is why I try to keep away from it. I don't see how all of you have the time to keep up with it.

Posted by: orawh | January 9, 2011 6:36 PM | Report abuse

As far as I know, this joke refers to passover isand the Egyptians. I heard it at a seder from an Israeli, therefore I did not find it offensive, although I was somewhat surprised.

I researched the EU Times one of the "guests" referred to, and this publication is registered to the wife of a skin head and affiliated with a racist group here in the US.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/12/16/racist-skinheads-wife-behind-european-news-website/

Posted by: gmbka | January 9, 2011 6:39 PM | Report abuse

Psst... I don't either, orawh. Best I can do is once or twice a week, more often during holidays.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 6:40 PM | Report abuse

I forgot to say how pleased I am that orawh delurked. Come back when you can.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 9, 2011 6:51 PM | Report abuse

No, no, no, orawh -- the Boodle is a *good* addiction to have! Keep participating!

Hmmm, intellectual humor -- even though they appear to be known for their "slapshtick" I love Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks. The underlying humor is very complex with these guys.

And, dear Mudgkins -- looks like (so far) your Iggles ain't doin' so good. *faxing karma and a pretend cheese steak in yer direction*

Posted by: ftb3 | January 9, 2011 6:54 PM | Report abuse

Ivansmom, you made me laugh. I was delivering a child in the sense that I was returning one who came to hang out for a few days. If we were talking midwifery, well, ouch!

Mudge, you've got me thinkin' (I know, you thought you smelled electrical-fire smoke)...do I find Italian jokes funny because when my family tells them they oftentimes mess up the punch lines? Or are they funny because they hit the mark when it comes to the essence of being Italian? Hmmm. Catholic jokes can be pretty funny. The original "I can see my house from here" joke really should have had Catholics searching the sky for lightening, yet we laugh really hard and Tina Fey twists it just slightly (anyone *not* catch the reference first time around?) and ends up with a Kennedy Ctr Award. Hmmm. Maybe it has to do with both the person telling the joke *and* the person hearing it.

Time to watch the Eagles try for two again.

Posted by: LostInThought | January 9, 2011 7:24 PM | Report abuse

In other news, TLC has canceled Sarah Palin's Alaska. I know you are all heartbroken ;-)

I think I'm finally reaching my limit of football watching for the weekend. Good thing this game is almost over. The Eagle's kicker isn't very good, is he? (Sorry Mudge.)

Posted by: badsneakers | January 9, 2011 7:31 PM | Report abuse

I guess Thomas Jefferson must be a dancingrabbit.

”Deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites; ten thousand recollections, by the blacks, of the injuries they have sustained; new provocations; the real distinction which nature has made; and many other circumstances will divide us into parties, and produce convulsions, will will probably never end but in the extermination of one or the other race”

Page 266, Jefferson the Virginan, Dumas Malone

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 7:54 PM | Report abuse

LiT, there aren't enough good Catholic jokes, are there? I'm not counting the jokes about St. Peter at the gate...

I did learn just last year that I really, really don't like the term Papist even in jokes, nor any retelling of negative stereotypes.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 7:56 PM | Report abuse

"Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small.

All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so.

And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also,

the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.

I could wish their Numbers were increased.

And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People?

why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red?

But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind” Ben Franklin

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 8:10 PM | Report abuse

I wish I were a little darker because then my age spots would be less visible.

Posted by: gmbka | January 9, 2011 8:17 PM | Report abuse

Wascally wabbit! Did you get a nice west? I was concerned for you when you left so early. Got your tap dancin' shoes?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 8:18 PM | Report abuse

I studied human genetics and there are no "races" of humans. Pigmentation is controlled by only three or four genes, and there are blond Africans. There are blue-eyed Africans, too. There have been redheaded Asians, there continue to be brown-haired Asians.

European genetics is "unique" only in that we're ancestrally so inbred that recessive genes have become more common. Some of us more so than others, clearly.

A good percentage of African-Americans have distant white kin, thanks to Long Tom and others who talked one way in public and lived another way in private.

And-- a lot of us "whites" have more black blood than we realize, including YOU if you are an American with a pedigree dating back to 1620 or so, including any ancestry in the South.

I guarantee you this. So what do you mean by "races" anyway? We can solve the race question by melding the two.

I personally will bet I am far more fair-skinned than you AND I have longer "white American citizen ancestry" than you.

I am proud to say I have relatives with Native American blood, African-American blood. I'm proud to have friends who are first generation immigrants. I've travelled across America and I am sick and tired of your racist bleatings.

You will convince nobody on this blog of your views. You will only convince us that you need to be locked up for the general safety.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 8:22 PM | Report abuse

I wonder: does rabbit view his actions as normal? When he relaxes and takes a good long look at what he chooses to do with his spare time, what does he think, deep down?

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 8:24 PM | Report abuse

The best Italian joke I have ever seen is here:

http://www.lifeinitaly.com/flash

Whoever has ever travelled in Italy can relate.

Posted by: gmbka | January 9, 2011 8:24 PM | Report abuse

Ben Franklin didn't like Tiger Woods? Stop the presses!

Posted by: -pj- | January 9, 2011 8:26 PM | Report abuse

Gee, this will probably turn out well...

http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2011/01/08/video-fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-church-plans-on-protesting-at-cristina-greenes-funeral/

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 8:26 PM | Report abuse

"But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind” Ben Franklin

Note the use of Kind and natural.

Ben Franklin was not a Southerner. He was one of the principal Founders..signing the Constitution, The Declaration of Independence and the Treaty of Paris. The only Founder to sign all three documents.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 8:39 PM | Report abuse

Bob, I could not get myself to watch the video because I find the headline alone sickening.
Off to watch TV, there is only so much I can take.

Posted by: gmbka | January 9, 2011 8:40 PM | Report abuse

You made me think of what I understand about schizophrenia by that remark, Baldinho.

Schizophrenics have high, nearly fixed dopamine levels, which impairs their judgment because dopamine level changes are part of the reward/punishment system in the brain that helps us judge if things are good or bad.

This also means they cannot judge what they are thinking is true or not, because they're not getting the feeling of cognitive dissonance between what they're thinking and what they know and are getting from the world. They can learn and think, of course, and will readily learn positive feedback and new information, but they cannot judge and balance their thoughts and feelings logically while in a psychotic break.

Thankfully it can be treated and many schizophrenics, if treated, can have a reasonably normal life in between episodes. However, most have to deal with serious depression and frustration at their condition when sane.

There is no reasoning with a schizophrenic during such an episode; they'll just pick up the positive in what you say and overlook any logical conflict between what they were saying just a few seconds ago and now-- or what you were saying. This leaves them at risk for exploition and violence by others.

And if they should become paranoid while incapable of judging friend and foe, that is a great danger to them and others, indeed.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 8:42 PM | Report abuse

Bob, do you remember what dancingrabbit's point was? Was there ever one? I think it had something to do with the Nationals?

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 8:42 PM | Report abuse

The punch line to my favorite Catholic joke is "...and the Pope says, 'Do you think we have time?'"

Posted by: yellojkt | January 9, 2011 8:43 PM | Report abuse

Bravo Wilbrod. Now if only it would make dancingrabbit see the light - why am I so pessimistic that will happen.

Have always like this quote, those this belief saddens me.

The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Posted by: dmd3 | January 9, 2011 8:46 PM | Report abuse

Jkt,

Mine is "are we all going to just screw around all day, or do you want to play golf."

Posted by: russianthistle | January 9, 2011 8:47 PM | Report abuse

Ooops, I need more punctuation from Mudge. Also, I think I have missed a lot. Especially a lot of posts by that hand puppet, Mr. Rabbit.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 9, 2011 8:50 PM | Report abuse

Hey dancingrabbit, let me introduce myself. I come from a family that is pretty dang white. My father is a genealogy nut, and I think our ancestors came over in about 1680. There wasn't a lot of dabbling with coloreds, mostly other "real Americans" and western European immigrants.

Until recently. My brother is married to a woman born and raised in China. My wife is a Jew. Her brother is engaged to a second-gen Korean-American.

Sorry about all that.

Posted by: baldinho | January 9, 2011 8:50 PM | Report abuse

That's a good quote, dmd. Even more appropriate than one of Churchill's: "A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

Posted by: -pj- | January 9, 2011 8:55 PM | Report abuse

Well, initially rabbit came to tell us that it was reprehensible that Achenbach (and by extension, the Washington Post) were laying blame for the terrible shootings at the feet of Sarah Palin. But the subject quickly turned to how America's becoming a cesspool because we hand out citizenship willy-nilly to anybody who pops out of our bedrooms.

That sound about right, 'rabbit?

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 9:05 PM | Report abuse

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

-- Genghis Khan

Posted by: russianthistle | January 9, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

Many of my own family have infiltratred the citizenry of the US rabbit, Irish-Canadian RC's, hehehe, and we are mixing with multiple cultures and religions.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 9, 2011 9:13 PM | Report abuse

I merely asked what you thought of the article, didn't say I agreed with it.

However, the comments were interesting.

Kinda like flying a plane at an enemy border and capturing signet.

Sincerely,
helpfuled

Posted by: edmbenson | January 9, 2011 9:31 PM | Report abuse

"Complexion" used to mean nature, temperament, disposition, attitude, not skin coloring.

Ben Franklin argued for the abolition of slavery, incidentally, but his attitude changed across his lifetime; he had owned slaves when young.

"Slavery is such an atrocious debasement of human nature, that its very extirpation, if not performed with solicitous care, may sometimes open a source of serious evils."

Benjamin Franklin, An Address to the Public, November 1789

He also said this: "History affords us many instances of the ruin of states, by the prosecution of measures ill suited to the temper and genius of their people. The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy... These measures never fail to create great and violent jealousies and animosities between the people favored and the people oppressed; whence a total separation of affections, interests, political obligations, and all manner of connections, by which the whole state is weakened."

Benjamin Franklin, Emblematical Representations, Circa 1774

Equality. None of this "true citizen" nonsense I keep hearing from somebody here, and he believed this before the Declaration of Independence was written.

If you haven't remembered, the American colonies broke away from England because the colonists were not given equal rights to these living in England, no matter that many American colonists were born in England-- rights of representation, and were taxed and oppressed unduly, like non-citizens.

Oppression is a good recipe for rebellion. Remove oppression, and rebellion will gather no support.

In the last 300 years, we've been gradually working on removing oppression and achieving that state of equality. I don't care if the Founding fathers never thought a country without slavery and equality for women was possible.

They never knew that we could have guns that could kill dozens of people in a minute, flying machines, or space travel, either.

Today, not 1776, is the day WE make America possible.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 9:33 PM | Report abuse

I merely asked what you thought of the article, didn't say I agreed with it.

However, the comments were interesting.

Kinda like flying a plane at an enemy border and capturing signit.

Sincerely,
helpfuled

Posted by: edmbenson | January 9, 2011 9:34 PM | Report abuse

Snort at "popping out of bedrooms"

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 9:37 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, well, Ben Franklin also said (on the preference for older mistresses over younger ones):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Because when women cease to be handsome they study to be good. To maintain their influence over men, they supply the diminution of beauty by an augmentation of utility. They learn to do a thousand services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old woman who is not a good woman.

3. Because there is no hazard of children, which irregularly produc'd may be attended with much inconvenience.

4. Because through more experience they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an intrigue to prevent suspicion. The commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the affair should happen to be known, considerate people might be rather inclin'd to excuse an old woman, who would kindly take care of a young man, form his manners by her good counsels, and prevent his ruining his health and fortune among mercenary prostitutes.

5. Because in every animal that walks upright, the deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the neck; then the breast and arms; the lower parts continuing to the last as plump as ever; so that covering all above with a basket, and regarding only what is below the girdle, it is impossible of two women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all cats are gray, the pleasure of corporal enjoyment with an old woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every knack being by practice capable of improvement.

6. Because the sin is less. The debauching a virgin may be her ruin, and make her for life unhappy.

7. Because the compunction is less. The having made a young girl miserable may give you frequent bitter reflection; none of which can attend the making an old woman happy.

8thly and lastly. They are so grateful!!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Sorry, the whole thing wouldn't fit]

I love Ben Franklin, but not every word that leaked from his pen is worthy of being turned directly into national policy, I think.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 9, 2011 9:57 PM | Report abuse

Ah, his famous "In Praise of Cougars."

But that "policy" would certainly take care of the population explosion.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 10:20 PM | Report abuse

helpfuled,

A brief look at that Web site shows that it is not to be taken seriously. Thanks for playing, though, and I'm sure Johnny has some nice parting gifts for you.

Posted by: -pj- | January 9, 2011 10:36 PM | Report abuse

That line about being "grateful" may be funny, but it is hateful and I hate it. It makes me flush with anger every time I hear it.

Posted by: Yoki | January 9, 2011 11:20 PM | Report abuse

"prosecutions to be instituted against all persons who shall within the cognizance of the courts of the United States, violate the Law of Nations” George Washington, April 22 1793

Law of Nations, Chapter XIX, "a natural born citizen is born to citizen parents"

One of the qualifications for President in the Constitution "a natural born citizen"

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 11:28 PM | Report abuse

The Franklin letter to Dumas thanking him for the copies of Vattel’s Law of Nations stating it was being put to good use by the “Congress now sitting” was signed by Franklin, John Dickinson and John Jay.


Mons. Dumas.

Philadelphia Dec. 12. 1775.

"I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel. It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising state make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations." Ben Franklin

"We the underwritten, appointed by the american congress a committee of foreign correspondence having perused the above Letter, Written at our Request, do approve and confirm the same.

(Signed) John Dickinson
John Jay

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 9, 2011 11:40 PM | Report abuse

right with you, bia, waiting on 3-6" of snow, then a layer of ice to seal it in. school is right out tomorrow. in our county, we'll be lucky to be back in session by wed.


cross hairs are a surveyor's symbol? maybe. i always thought that the most frequent conclusion to sighting something through cross hairs was to discharge some sort of incendiary device. i think it's high time that some of the more extreme television and radio talk show hosts, as well as our poilticians, begin to consider the consequences of their rhetoric.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2027154/v2168408

Posted by: -jack- | January 9, 2011 11:44 PM | Report abuse

Birther rabbit. See Mudge, January 9, 2011 10:00 AM. Google search for off-the-wall constitutional law.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 9, 2011 11:52 PM | Report abuse

Jack, I agree. It may not be shouting fire in a crowded theater, but it's close.

Yoki-- I do agree with that line being wrathworthy. It shows a lack of class and self-aggrandizement.
Which men often have, but nonetheless. He actually ditched his first love and tried to marry up for a dowry, but couldn't. He wound up marrying his first love, Deborah Read, when both were penniless, and she was er, ahem, presumed widowed, if I remember right from his Autobiography.

I always wondered what Deborah Read was like and what their relationship was like. Ben doesn't really say too much in his Autobiography.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 9, 2011 11:54 PM | Report abuse

i warned you, dancingrabbit. git. go on. vamoose. hit the road. go back to the hole you crawled out of. i don't want to talk to you no more, you food trough wiper. i fart in your general direction. your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUR9ir35Iuo&NR=1&feature=fvwp

the taunt is quoted from the original, with many thanks to the troupe.

Posted by: -jack- | January 10, 2011 12:13 AM | Report abuse

While our founders may have had said what they said, and did what they did, time has evolved and with it the interpretation of our constitution and laws. Today, women have the right to vote, own land and be elected to office. Descendants of immigrants can rise to become great leaders of our nation. We've become more inclusive and less fearful of differences (although we still have a long way to go). We've got the freedom to eat at any restaurant and sit anywhere on a bus no matter what we look like. And, we can say stupid, insulting and morally reprehensible things and not be thrown in jail or hung in the town square. I'd say, it's better today than yesterday and that we, as a nation, have improved upon our founders original thoughts.

Posted by: MiddleofthePacific | January 10, 2011 2:28 AM | Report abuse

MoP, well said. Nice to read a rational explanation. The Constitution is a living document. Funny thing about the Constitution, if you use it to argue to limit another person's rights, it just starts to stink up the place--especially when today's people try to put meaning into the words based on the words of those who lived 200 years ago.

BTW, nothing wrong with that, but that knife cuts two ways.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 2:59 AM | Report abuse

Watch out friends, Scalia won't be very happy with your posts.

Posted by: Yoki | January 10, 2011 3:25 AM | Report abuse

Ah yes, Yoki. SCOTUS goes after Washington Post bloggers--promising that this effort cannot be used as precedent in any other cases.
Actually, Scalia and I have had something in common, we both loved A V Italian Restaurant that used to be on NY Ave.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 4:13 AM | Report abuse

God loves us so much more than we can imagine through Him that died for all, Jesus Christ.

Morning, friends. Well, they've closed schools, but I don't see any of the white stuff on the ground, perhaps there's just ice.

I agree, "grateful"is a hateful conclusion.

We need Mom Mabley, I think that's her name, anyway she hated old men. She was a comediene(sp) and made albums, the old vinyls, and she dished old men some kind of bad, but in a funny way. Said the only thing they(old men) could do for her was show her which way a young man went or something on that order. It didn't matter what she was talking about, she always got back to that subject usually talking about some attribute of old men that was despicable. Mind you, she was old too, which made her tirades really funny.

I have an appointment today, but not going out if there's ice on the road. The schools are closed, so I'm assuming travel might not be the best.

Slyness, are y'all slipping and sliding in the Queen city? Be careful if you have to go out. I went to see the baby yesterday after church, and he's growing so, and the cough seems a little better, not as bad. He is spoiled already, started crying when I talked to him, got quiet when I picked him up.

TBG, tell that beautiful son of yours hello for me, hope he's well.

Have a wonderful day, folks, and be careful if the weather is bad. Remember to check on the elderly. Love to all.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 5:15 AM | Report abuse

Almost forgot..

The Washington Post is reporting the young man that shot Congresswoman Giffords and the rest of the people in Tuscon was always acting out in his classes and very disruptive. The teachers and students were very nervous with his behavior. They call the police here, wonder if that happened in his case?

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 5:23 AM | Report abuse

Oh, Cassandra, this reminds me of what happened at Virginia Tech three and a half years ago...if only we had the law enforcement and mental health services we need.

The ground is white here, but traffic on Providence Road seems to be moving at a good clip. No walk for Mr. T and me this morning, so we'll have to see what it's like when he goes to work in half an hour or so. I'll tell him to call me when he gets there...

G'morning, everyone else! I hope the weather is delightful (ha!) wherever you all are...

The quote from Franklin rather amuses me, at my advanced age. He was certainly being a smarta$$, but he was good at that.

Gotta go see if I can find the paper...

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 7:02 AM | Report abuse

Red skies at morning
Shovelers take warning...

Or something like that.

I'm afraid we'll only be teased by this storm, however.

And forgive me if I see attempts at obfuscation in recent remarks about "surveyor symbols." *RME*

*rehearsing-my-spiel-for-an-internal-career-fair-kinda-day Grover waves* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 10, 2011 7:43 AM | Report abuse

Good morning all.

gmbka, funny funny video. So true. Only thing missing was the graft. I will definitely pass that one along.

Wilbrod, the funny thing about the Franklin quote is that while he loved women of all ages, he tended to spend a fair amount of time in serious flirtation with much younger women (though he was exceptionally close to his landlady in Europe.) There's no evidence he ever married DR. DR knew he stepped out from time to time (he was something of a rock star), and raised the son he fathered with another woman.

About the AZ tragedy...though I figure it's early, I haven't heard anyone mention Reagan's hacking away at mental health funds and that all these years later, that gaping hole hasn't been filled.

Have a happy morning all.

Posted by: LostInThought | January 10, 2011 7:57 AM | Report abuse

Yoki, re: Scalia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSemqIqOByQ

"The genius of the Constitution is that it can always be changed."

Changed - as in amended, NOT reinterpreted. It was clearly wrong to deny women the vote, but women weren't given the vote by pretending that the Constitution said something it didn't; or that it didn't say something it did. Women were granted the vote by passage of an amendment that CHANGED the Constitution.

Similarly, the proposed ERA - an attempt to CHANGE the Constitution, vice re-interpret what it said.

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 10, 2011 8:29 AM | Report abuse

During an 1866 Congressional debate, U.S. Representative John Bingham of Ohio, considered one of the fathers of the 14th Amendment, said “…every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 8:36 AM | Report abuse

'morning all. The Christian Science Monitor headline writer must have had his/her tongue firmly stuck in his/her cheek.
"Scientists plan mission to probe Uranus"

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/Cool-Astronomy/2011/0107/Scientists-plan-mission-to-probe-Uranus


of

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 10, 2011 8:39 AM | Report abuse

I always thought 'natural' meant your parents weren't married when you were born, like Harriet Smith in 'Emma'. I've always interpreted that clause to mean that in order to be President you had to be a real bast@rd.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 8:52 AM | Report abuse

yello - BWAAAH! Dan LeBatard '12! :-)

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 10, 2011 8:54 AM | Report abuse

No group of America's leaders has ever been more mindful of the law of nations than were the Founding Fathers.

This chapter tells a little of that story. It begins with American perceptions of the law of nations during the Revolution and Confederation (1776-1789), focusing on Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence.

Second, it turns to the importance of the law of nations in the framing of the US Constitution (1787-1789), focusing on James Madison.

Third, the chapter explores how the founders relied on international law in early American diplomacy.

Finally, it looks to the incorporation of the law of nations in early American judicial practice, particularly the contribution made by John Marshall.


Law of Nations Chapter XIX: A natural born citizen is born to citizen parents.

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/oso/public/content/law/9780199579341/acprof-9780199579341-chapter-2.html

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 8:55 AM | Report abuse

ArmyBrat: Interesting points. The Constitution provides our ruling framework and the covenants by which we rule ourselves.

The laws are passed by Congress and by the the State Legislatures. We are all free to challenge any law that we feel violates our constitutional rights or exceed the authority given to our government bodies.

Your point on the ERA was an interesting one for a discussion. I am not sure that you and I would be agreeing on everything, but well worth a discussion at some point.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 8:57 AM | Report abuse

Quite the thick white stuff outside. As usual, a "hole of avoidance" opened up in the storm as it crossed over, sparing us from greater snowfall. I assume the county is a heat island, because this happens often as storms pass over.

Interesting how folks are tempted to talk sense to schizophrenics. It has a history of not working.

A friend in the mental health field laid down some stats for me once. Fudging his numbers somewhat to make a clear case, he said 1% of everyone is schizophrenic, 1% is depressed, 1% is obsessive/compulsive, 1% is psychotic, 1% neurotic. One in twenty people you meet are nuts, and sometimes it takes a while to realize it when it happens.

Not in some cases.

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 10, 2011 8:58 AM | Report abuse

The 14th amendment expanded the definition of citizen but based voting rights on males 21 and over. The 19th amendment extended voting rights to women. Section 1 of the 14th Amendment clearly states:

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

That is very gender neutral language. The ERA should have been unnecessary because other than voting rights, there are no other distinctions between male and female citizens in the Constitution.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 9:02 AM | Report abuse

There is a difference being born natural and a natural born citizen according to Roman Law.

All of the early republics had laws a citizens must be born to citizen parents.

The way the nation is today..is a result of not following the Constitution. We have allowed mass immigration and unfettered illegal border crossings.

They bring with them the government they left behind..they want to instill their own beliefs.

Jefferson was very concerned about immigration..and he wrote when slaves are freed they must be colonized and not be allowed in the government when they are freed. Jefferson predicted convulsions would happen and we are seeing it today.

We have a President who is not a natural born citizen. Those that support him cannot say they have a right to keep their shirts on their back.

We believe the Washington Post knows this man is illegal.

We believe this newspaper, at the direction of the White House, is directing the vile smears against Sarah Palin.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 9:12 AM | Report abuse

dancingrabbit...We? How many people live in your head? Do you realize you sound way off-balance a la Loughner, complete with creating a record of your rambling, bizarre ideas? Get help. And for goodness sake, don't listen to the voices. They are NOT your friends.

Posted by: LostInThought | January 10, 2011 9:30 AM | Report abuse

Howdy y'all. I see that the reports indicate Loughner was mentally disturbed and deliberately chose Gifford. I expect we'll see some commentary along the lines of, his classmates/teachers/parents/etc should have seen this coming, got him help, etc. Sadly, this is often very difficult.

Of course, our mental health medical system is very patchy across the country; it is often difficult to get mental health services when they are needed.

I'm thinking of a different problem: people are reluctant to insist that others get help, or don't know quite how to do it. Parents often don't see a problem clearly - particularly with early-adult onset mental illness - and then don't quite know what to do. Sometimes parents, who are often in the best position to get help, wait to try and convince the child that the child wants or needs help and agrees to it. Sometimes they just wait, hoping nothing bad will happen. Classmates, teachers, schools - often the primary concern is to get the disturbing (and possibly disturbed) person out of the classroom. This may be as far as they can go, or as far as they care to go, hoping someone else will take the next steps, whatever they are.

It is hard to get someone mental health services against their will. This is, on balance, a good thing. History is filled with people who were called crazy and locked up when their only real problem was disagreement with someone who had more authority than they did. It is hard to walk that balance between protecting individuals and protecting society.

Situations like this are really complicated.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 9:31 AM | Report abuse

At any given time, up to 30% of the population could be diagnosed with some level of mental illness. Wired Magazine has an article on the political infighting over mental illness definitions between DSM-IV and the forthcoming DSM-5.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_dsmv/

It's not very comforting how very haphazard and random these things are. Psychiatry is at the stage surgery was when it was practiced by barbers.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 9:32 AM | Report abuse

Here in North Carolina with a budget shortfall to beat all shortfalls, money for mental health problems just will not be there, and that has always been the case even in good times. Our elected officials and those appointed have been lax in that area for sometime. The attitude seems to be that it isn't needed or there will be a huge public outcry if the money is spent.

And yes, LiT, let me piped in, Reagan put the scissors to a lot of programs. My father worked in Raleigh for the Supreme Court and he said during the Reagan administration, state officials emptied the mental hospitals and services to these folks, and most them ended up downtown Raleigh harassing pedestrians and standing in buildings or trying to sleep in them. They lack their meds and no one was seeing about them. Just living on the streets.

And when one calls the police, they don't know what to do with people with mental problems. They take them to the hospitals and the hospital may keep them a day or two, if they have the capacity, and then send them right back out in the street.

Here where I live, there's a young man that counts his steps forward, then goes backward and start again or he's just standing muttering to himself. He burnt the house up the street where his uncle and family was living, but luckily they got out. He was missing for about two weeks after that, but right back out there now.

Sometimes he walks in the courtyard here. My point being we see these folks, and we don't see them. We go on with our lives and pretend all is well, yet there should be a loud national outcry for mental health. We know it exists and that doing nothing carries a huge consequence. You lose the person with the mental health problem, and then you lose others because of that problem. We can do better.

Didn't mean to preach this morning. We have so much of the white stuff, and still it falls. *sigh*

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 9:33 AM | Report abuse

yello - "The ERA should have been unnecessary because other than voting rights, there are no other distinctions between male and female citizens in the Constitution."

That's a very new interpretation, and it's not widely held, but it's the basis for those lambasting Scalia.

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment for a reasonable description of what happened. In a good example of political shifts over the years, the ERA was introduced in Congress by Republicans in December 1923 and every session thereafter; it was defeated by northern Democrats primarily because organized labor opposed it so strongly.

It's been resubmitted in Congress in (almost) every session since it was rejected in 1982. It was submitted in the 111th Congress in July 2009, and strongly endorsed by the NOW.

So if it's actually unneeded, a lot of very powerful and influential people are wasting a lot of time and energy.

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 10, 2011 9:33 AM | Report abuse

Here in North Carolina with a budget shortfall to beat all shortfalls, money for mental health problems just will not be there, and that has always been the case even in good times. Our elected officials and those appointed have been lax in that area for sometime. The attitude seems to be that it isn't needed or there will be a huge public outcry if the money is spent.

And yes, LiT, let me piped in, Reagan put the scissors to a lot of programs. My father worked in Raleigh for the Supreme Court and he said during the Reagan administration, state officials emptied the mental hospitals and services to these folks, and most them ended up downtown Raleigh harassing pedestrians and standing in buildings or trying to sleep in them. They lack their meds and no one was seeing about them. Just living on the streets.

And when one calls the police, they don't know what to do with people with mental problems. They take them to the hospitals and the hospital may keep them a day or two, if they have the capacity, and then send them right back out in the street.

Here where I live, there's a young man that counts his steps forward, then goes backward and start again or he's just standing muttering to himself. He burnt the house up the street where his uncle and family was living, but luckily they got out. He was missing for about two weeks after that, but right back out there now.

Sometimes he walks in the courtyard here. My point being we see these folks, and we don't see them. We go on with our lives and pretend all is well, yet there should be a loud national outcry for mental health. We know it exists and that doing nothing carries a huge consequence. You lose the person with the mental health problem, and then you lose others because of that problem. We can do better.

Didn't mean to preach this morning. We have so much of the white stuff, and still it falls. *sigh*

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 9:34 AM | Report abuse

'Morning, Boodle.

RIP, Dick Winter, the man who led Easy Company on D-Day and was the principal hero of Stephen Ambrose's book and the HBO series "Band of Brothers."

In describing how Winters won the second-highest medal on D-Day by leading a team to take out four emplaced field guns, the WaPo obit writer made an unfortunate error, noting that Winter and his squad killed 15 Germans and took 12 others "hostage." Four or five commenters had already expressed high dudgeon in the comments section by the time I got there to do the same. It was a shame, in part because the WaPo obit squad is usually extremely good. But it was another example of a lack of quality editing. (The obit also called the field guns "cannons," which irked me no end, but that one's trickier than "hostages," which is indisputably wrong. These happened to be 105mm artilery, which by this time in history were generically called "field guns," and "cannon" had been relegated to the back benches and naval use. It's not so much that misuse of two military terms betrays the writer's lack of knowledge -- although it does -- but it also betrays the writer's lack of spending five minutes researching the topic, as well as lack of editing. And nothing inflames military people more than misusing their terminology, and I don't blame them.)

Meanwhile, I have mixed feelings about the question of mental health services. I absolutely agree we need more and better. But what we haven't figured out yet is how to get people who clearly need it into treatment. As jumper's friend noted, there are lots of mentally disturbed people wandering around, with various kinds and levels of disturbance. To be fair, the vast majority of them don't shoot people, though many do harm to themselves and others, even if it is "just emotional" harm.

Be that as it may, we have clear evidence of a deeply disturbed individual right here in our midst right now, and we can't do a damned thing about it.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 9:39 AM | Report abuse

LiT -- perhaps there was some breeding over the weekend that makes "we" a literal term. Rabbits, yanno. *RME*

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 10, 2011 9:39 AM | Report abuse

Haphazard and random indeed, yello. This is one reason it is so difficult to successfully defend against a crime by claiming insanity. The legal definition of insanity, for criminal law purposes, was developed in the 1800s, long before today's various understandings of the physiological and psychological ways in which a mind can break.

Essentially, in most jurisdictions, a defendant is presumed sane. To claim otherwise he must either not know what he was doing, or know it but not know it was wrong; or, using a different test, must have no substantial capacity to appreciate that his act was criminal, or conform his conduct to the law; or that, at the time of the crime, due to a severe mental disease or defect he could not appreciate the

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 9:41 AM | Report abuse

[Whoops. Darn "submit" button.]
... can't appreciate the nature & quality or wrongfulness of his acts.

The common thread here is that an insane defendant can't know right from wrong, or can't know what he was doing is wrong. This lets a lot of mental illnesses, as currently recognized, out. Schizophrenics, for example, almost always know right from wrong. They usually know what they're doing is wrong. They just often have a good reason, in their own minds, for doing it.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 9:45 AM | Report abuse

Mudge, you do know that most of us have Military knowledge that doesn't go past our understanding of Monopoly tokens. The confusion is predictable.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 9:47 AM | Report abuse

Sorry about the double posts.

Ivansmom, you are so right. It is hard to get help for someone that thinks they're fine and don't have problem. The teacher tries to remove the person that is causing the disruption, and eventually everything falls back to the state. And you are right again, when people could be locked up without their consent, there was a lot of abuse and mistreatment. That situation still applies, only now it is outside the arena of hospitals and centers, though I suspect some goes on still. What's happening now is that mentally ill folks are being put in nursing homes and homes for those that need around the clock nursing care, meaning these folks are coming in contact with senior citizens, but still not getting the treatment they need, hence a lot of bad thing happening with that situation. It all boils down to lack of treatment in most cases, whatever the superficial problems. In other words, we're still trying to hide them, but running out of places to do that.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 9:47 AM | Report abuse

Several years ago..we were told by Obama worshipers the Founders could not speak French..they could not understand the 1758 French edition of Vattel's Law of Nations. They attacked the Founders. We know the Founders could read and write Greek, Latin and French.

If we quote the words of the Founders we are deemed "insane".

This tells me..the problem is not Sarah Palin..it is liberals. They will say anything, smear any one..to protect their golden calf Obama.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 9:55 AM | Report abuse

The distinction between rifle and gun I understand thanks to Full Metal Jacket:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kU0XCVey_U

Is a cannon just a bigger gun? Because that could result in some hurt feelings depending on who is doing the classifying.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 9:57 AM | Report abuse

Yes, weed, I'm fully cognizant that most people have limited knowledge of military stuff, and that doesn't bother me. That's not the issue. It's about an obit writer doing the necessary research to get it right, and having a desk editor and/or a copy editor to backstop him (her).

Curiously, the legal framework regarding an insanity plea that Ivansmom is discussing flows from what is called "the M'Naghten Rule." It comes from an 1843 case in England where a disturbed, paranoic Scotsman, Daniel M'Naghten shot and killed the quivalent of a government employee, Edward Drummond, who at the time was personal secretary to Prime Minister Robert Peel (he who is generally credited with founding the police, a.k.a. "Bobbies" in England and "Peelers" in Ireland). M'Naghten had developed some paranoid ideas about the government, and was found not guilty by reason of insanity. (His original target was Peel, whom he had been stalking for several days.) The case led to widespread development of "the M'Naghten Rules," not just in the UK but here and many other countries that relied upon adaptions of English common and civil law.

So, like Loughner, M'Naghten killed a government person who was not his primary target in a planned, pre-meditated attack.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 10:10 AM | Report abuse

Right, Cassandra. The mentally ill are essentially being warehoused in jails, nursing homes and similar institutions.

It isn't quite fair to blame the Reagan administration for the more or less permanent influx of mentally ill into society. They sure cut the funding. However, advocates for the mentally ill broke up the mental institutions long before Reagan took office. As I mentioned earlier, people were being locked up and medicated without consent and, too often, without cause. The proposed solution was to abolish institutions. The idea was that the mentally ill would be cared for in the community. Of course, those funding cuts took that option away.

Also, there was great disagreement over medication. The proposed solution was to make it difficult to prescribe and give medication to people who didn't want it. This has not worked out well.

The combination of well-intentioned advocacy, unintended consequences, and social engineering and funding cuts has resulted in a large population of mentally ill homeless, barely functioning, or in jail or nursing homes. As Cassandra says, we see it and don't see it every day.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 10:16 AM | Report abuse

I happen, oddly enough, to know something of that. For a long time, all canon were guns. When rifling was discovered, long-barrelled canon became rifles, while mortars are still guns.

Posted by: Yoki | January 10, 2011 10:39 AM | Report abuse

It's difficult everywhere to "make" someone take their medication. There was a sad case a few years ago involving a family that has done everything, and I mean everything, to get their schizophrenic 20-21 years old son in a setting where he would take his dang meds. Once he turn 19 and got out of his parents' house he stopped taking his pills to get back to his "normal self", with predictable results. The family spent the next couple of years picking him up at the police station, at various hospitals and homeless refuges where he was causing trouble. Still, he wouldn't take his meds. One day the unmedicated youngster was picked by police, once again, for acting weird and sent to an emergency ward where he promptly bludgeoned an old guy to death with a stool. THEN he was committed. The family was inconsolable, of course.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 10, 2011 10:43 AM | Report abuse

I hope one day scientists will find the imbalance that causes schizophrenia and be able to cure it. In the meantime, the suffering is intense and terrible.

Snow still falling. I took Geekdottir over to her dad's so she can play with her young brothers. The only problem I encountered occurred when I was trying to turn into his driveway. So I stopped in the street and let her out, then backed up and turned around in the intersection.

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Go fjerk yourself, obnoxious rabbit. I'm a liberal yet I don't "worship" Obama as a "golden calf." Nobody ever said any of the crap you ascribe to me. You just make crap up. Go join the army, you woos.

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 10, 2011 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Jumper love your 10:51, and I am sure like the rest of us you have had enough of the rabbit and perhaps didn't think of this with the "go join the army" comment, rabbit with access to weaponry - no that is frightening.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 10, 2011 10:54 AM | Report abuse

Mudge, I was just trying to be funny. Sorry. I recently was reading what was a front page (web edition) feature piece that was posted in draft form obviously in the midst of re-organization with pieces of writing clipped and copied (not deleted) around the document. I, having a reading disability, often re-read sections of writing because my eyes don't always move down properly line by line.

It took me a couple of checks to realize that, for once, it wasn't me.

Mudge, I totally agree with you that we all have certain topics of which we do know a significant amount and when we see folks just blow basic facts about that field in the course of significant writing, it sticks in one's craw (is that the right word?)

I am right now stunned that, with so much suffering in this country, there are folks like the Kaninchen Meister who spend so much time being obsessed with fake facts.

To paraphrase Representative Steve King, "I don't question his mendacity!"

BTW, I also am stunned how parochial some people are in their willingness to ask someone about where the President was from. I grew up there and my mother was in the hospital where Obama was born. I played in the stream and built tree forts and floated on rafts near what is now the East-West Center at which Obama's sister administers. If you look at the map at the site, you will see the stream.

I played basketball in the same gym and new the same coaches. I attended the school in the same classrooms. Of course, I am not alone. There are hundreds of folks who have known the family for Obama's entire life. If there was such a concern about the president being a "Manchurian Candidate," don't you think that the folks there would be the ones fomenting the discontent? Nope, not there.

I guess there are people like the bunny who just don't want to believe something. We are talking about what is dangerous in mental health, I think this is dangerous.

I am not suggesting failed mental health, here, but just to be able to function in the current environment. Why I think that it is so dangerous is that it makes it almost impossible to fulfill one's own obligations to participate properly in our country's governing.

Google is a tool, it does not replace thought and reason and discussion.

To disagree is a healthy state in any society. I will also point out that one of the hardest skills is to master the ability to be in the minority. Right now, I see a basic FAIL, here.


Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 10:56 AM | Report abuse

I don't know the answers. I wish I did. My neighbor died last year was mentally ill, and she was taken to jail more than one time. She threw something at the g-girl and her cousin, some kind of liquid, and I reported it to the police because the child was in my care. The police came and talked this neighbor and her daughter, but basically did nothing. The housing complex received numerous complaints, but their hands were tied, they couldn't evict her. She would stand outside in the winter with just a blanket wrapped around her, and sometimes she would come out in the morning with nothing but the birthday suit on, dancing. The folks that lived right next to her were in agony, they hated it. The day before she was killed, she came to the Bible study for a little while. It was hot, I gave her a cold drink, thinking she was going to stay, but she left. I told her not to be outside for it was too hot, she said ok and left. That night they say she walked to the bypass, and was hit by a truck. I never believed that. She must have got to the bypass in a jet because some of the neighbors claimed to have talked with her about the same hour the incident supposedly happened. Her children didn't pursue it. They were probably just tired.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Dance Dance Rabbitlution, I'll see your bizarre nationalism crazy, and raise you my DAR membership.

There's no place for that kind of nonsense here, then, or now.

Posted by: cmorrisd | January 10, 2011 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Amen to that(being in the minority),russianthistle. It sounds like grabbing at straws, the theories these folks come up with, yet I still say it's to hide the bigger issue. I won't call it, but I think we all know where some of it has its roots.

I wonder if it ok for old people to play in the snow?

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 11:18 AM | Report abuse

cmyth4u, it's DEFINITELY okay for old people to play in the snow! Get outta my way, ya slowpoke; you're slowing down my saucer. :-)

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 10, 2011 11:21 AM | Report abuse

No problem, weed.

Yoki, while we're trifling with rifling, do you know who invented it?

It seems to have been invented in Augsburg, which was then a kind of independent city state, in what was later known as Bavaria, Germany. Then a gunmaker named August Kotter in Nuremberg refined it, and a great many sources say Kotter "invented" it (which he didn't), although he probably was the guy who made it work.

(Augsburg, incidentally, is the home of the Fugger banking family and empire. No, no, no, no, and no. They are no relation whatsoever to the Fokker aircraft manufacturing company, thank goodness. The German language is an unmitigated minefield, I'm telling ya. Good thing I speak it as fluently as I do.)

Incredibly true fact: both my great grandfather and my wife's grandfather were gunssmiths, mine from Germany, hers from Sweden. [We are neither of us "gun people," however. We just got descended from them.]

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Play in the snow! Yes!

Our freezing fog has given way to gentle little white flakes, more numerous and insistent than yesterday. This might just stick. (hee hee) I broke the ice in the dog water and gave them fresh. Probably have to do it again this afternoon.

This was an excellent day not to attend an outdoor inauguration.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Is it true, Ivansmom, that your state is one of those wanting to repeal the health care bill?

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Hooray for playing in the snow. The boys across the street sound like they're having a good time, though I'd think that those snowballs they're throwing at each other would be awfully hard, considering that our 3 inches of "snow" was half sleet. They don't seem to care. We happily didn't have enough freezing rain to cause any power outages.
The roads are genuinely icy, so the cancellations were prudent. I wonder how long until they get all the roads treated? It's supposed to warm up tomorrow; maybe they'll just wait.

Posted by: -bia- | January 10, 2011 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Got my car running, hope I can take my neighbor to the grocery store to get food, and hopefully my daughter doesn't find out, she would be furious! Pray for us. Will check in when I get back.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Be careful, Cassandra! The snow isn't sticking on the pavement in many places here, but there's still lots around.

Mudge, I've been to Augsburg, what a beautiful place. We were there, attending Interschutz, the big fire trade show, in June 2000. There was a heat wave that week, and we were in a hotel without air conditioning. I thought Mr. T would simply expire. Of course, the day we left the heat broke and the weather was nice. Lemme tell ya, though, upper 90's and a western-facing room the week of the solstice, it wasn't pleasant.

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Cassandra, yes, it is what it is--pure and simple. At the end of the day, it is that some folks see themselves as part of an old-time dream world and that dream world was perfect.

They construct a complex web of facts that they feel somehow justifies their view.

Was it Representative Barney Frank who said something like, my colleague is certainly entitled to his own opinions, but he isn't entitled to his own facts.

By the way, there was an interesting parallel drawn by a writer who's name escapes me, (could be Waldron) who connected the willingness to get a large number of Americans of modest means to support--against the proof of data--tax breaks for the "ultra" wealthy and the way that so many of the poor southern white farmers with no slaves supported the owning of slaves by the few wealthy families in their midst.

That is what the Tea Party was all about. Their number one impact was to blow a huge hole in the budget to benefit just a fraction of a percent of the American public, at the very same time as they are going on and on about budget responsibilities in Washington DC.

Here we have a complex thread covering all sorts of subjects related to Mental Illness and public responsibility and we all know that, in the name of making prudent public savings initiatives, we gutted public mental health spending.

Those are the facts. Unlike our bunny friend, I am connecting the dots.

When you shine the lights on a troubled man's life like we are now doing after such a terrible happening, we see that everyone knew there were problems. Just as Cassandra said, there are troubled folks living everywhere. Goodness knows, a large portion of our homeless population are a bit off.

I look at a poor homeless and clearly mentally troubled homeless guy at the Caribou while I work--I'm trying to get out of my office hole for a bit and he, just to warm up--and I see an American. One American. Unless someone calls a police officer in, there is no direct cost to society. Let's hope that he never chooses to cause anyone harm.

While many folks are focusing on the violence aspect of the crime in Arizona and what provoked it, I think that mental illness should be the focus, but, as we all know, that isn't sound-bite stuff.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Slyness, do they have fire sales, there?

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 12:19 PM | Report abuse

slyness, this week's New Yorker has a Shanahan cartoon featuring "Rosemary's Baby Wipes". Flames are sprouting from the container.

Headline at the Guardian: "Gunman Linked to Grammar Extremist". Truly weird.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/10/gabrielle-giffords-shooting-grammar-extremist

My town had a modest demonstratiion by Lyndon LaRouche Democrats recently. I thought that particular cult had died out.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 10, 2011 12:20 PM | Report abuse

russianthistle, that comment about poor Southern whites supporting the slaveholders was from the Post's "Five Myths" commentary on Secession.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/07/AR2011010703178.html

We're seeing a lot of skewering of seccesionists. Loewen's is particularly fun to read, although I think he's mistaken about Lincoln's purposes with respect to slavery. Someone else, I think writing at the NY Times, showed that Lincoln's famous letter of Aug 22, 1862 was disingenuous.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 10, 2011 12:34 PM | Report abuse

Not sure idf this one constitutes a "breaking news" story, or simply just another inaccurate headline.

http://www.bloginity.com/blog/2011/01/10/pants-subway-ride-2011-bares-3500-bottoms-york/

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Yup, weed, they sure do. The large apparatus manufacturers have private space in their booths where they can take customers to work out purchase agreements. When we were in Leipzig this past summer for the show, one of the major turnout gear manufacturers had giveways every day and was mobbed.

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 12:51 PM | Report abuse

DotC,
I read and enjoyed that Five Myths About Secession this weekend. Seemed to be a pretty good one to bookmark to forward to anybody that starts parroting 'states rights' nonsense.

The No Pants Ride has become a bit of an annual tradition (just not in my household). Melissa Bell has a witty write-up complete with pictures:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/no_pants_subway_ride_because_f.html

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 1:05 PM | Report abuse

We got back safe and sound. A lot of snow, and still coming down. Main road not so bad but getting worse by the minute because of the continuing snow. Side roads real bad. If ice covers that stuff, we're in for major trouble.

russianthistle

Good comment, your 12:16.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 1:09 PM | Report abuse

Roger Ebert has lost his voice, but not his wits. Here's a line from his review of "Season of the Witch"-

"You know I am a fan of Nic Cage and Ron Perlman (whose very existence made the “Hellboy” movies possible). Here, like cows, they devour the scenery, regurgitate it to a second stomach found only in actors and chew it as cud. It is a noble effort, but I prefer them in their straight-through Human Centipede mode."

Posted by: kguy1 | January 10, 2011 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Exciting news in the world of astronomy (something that we do not often get to say):

NASA'S KEPLER MISSION DISCOVERS ITS FIRST ROCKY PLANET

WASHINGTON -- NASA's Kepler mission confirmed the discovery of its first rocky planet, named Kepler-10b. Measuring 1.4 times the size of Earth, it is the smallest planet ever discovered outside our solar system.

The discovery of this so-called exoplanet is based on more than eight months of data collected by the spacecraft from May 2009 to early January 2010.

...

Kepler is the first NASA mission capable of finding Earth-size planets in or near the habitable zone, the region in a planetary system where liquid water can exist on the planet's surface. However, since it orbits once every 0.84 days, Kepler-10b is more than 20 times closer to its star than Mercury is to our sun and not in the habitable zone.

...

Accurate stellar properties yield accurate planet properties. In the case of Kepler-10b, the picture that emerges is of a rocky planet with a mass 4.6 times that of Earth and with an average density of 8.8 grams per cubic centimeter -- similar to that of an iron dumbbell.

...

Kepler is NASA's 10th Discovery Mission and is funded by NASA's Science Mission Directorate at the agency's headquarters. For more information about the Kepler mission, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/kepler

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 10, 2011 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Headline: NASA to launch new probe to find Bullwinkle Planet.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 1:33 PM | Report abuse

I wonder if Joel can spare a moment from his schedule to do a new kit?

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 10, 2011 1:40 PM | Report abuse

I have been working with the severely mentally ill for a few years and I could fill pages with stories, from the always friendly gentle giant who ended up murdering a man from a cable company, to the shy and quiet librarian who has been successfully working as an administrative assistant for years. Some of the schizophrenias can be successfully treated, others not at all. But research in brain chemistry has made great progress and there is hope. The problem of people not taking their meds will persist, though. Here people on a lower level of functioning live in group homes where they are supervised, but there is no such thing for those who live independently. Considering how severe the side effects of those psychotropic drugs can be, I cannot even blame the patients for giving up on the drugs, especially because they feel good when they make this decision.

The biography of John Nash, the Nobel prize winner, is a fascinating case study. Sylvia Nasar: A Beautiful Mind.

Mr Loughner is in the right age-group for onset of schizophrenia, but that is really all that can be said from a distance.

Posted by: gmbka | January 10, 2011 1:49 PM | Report abuse

kguy

I'm laughing, good review, I guess.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 1:49 PM | Report abuse

As long as they don't find any Rocky IV planets. That one would be a stinker.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 1:55 PM | Report abuse

How many rabbits can dance on the head of a pin?

Selective use of Vattel's Law of Nations out of context is specious thinking.

Vattel frequently cited Cicero who more broadly interpreted "citizen" in his successful defense of the poet Archais.

Birthers grasp at straws and rabbits dance on the head of a pin.

The rabbit thread was an interesting read. I do not doubt that someone can prove that the moon is made of green tea.

Posted by: -tao- | January 10, 2011 2:13 PM | Report abuse

Hmmm. I *do* like green tea, tao, and when I was still a meat eater, I enjoyed eating a wabbit or two (not at one time, tho). Very tasty, IIRC. But I suspect our dancing wabbit would taste a little, well, *off* somehow. Wouldn't take to the marinade or such.

Posted by: ftb3 | January 10, 2011 2:27 PM | Report abuse

DotC, thanks... also thanks Cassandra.

tao, prove may be a bit strong, but feel free to draw the conclusion that...

Which reminds me, one my largest frustrations in the past two years was when a person I knew stole 12 boxes of technical books from me that I had culled through and wanted to keep in my library. The only one that I was glad that they took was my Mathematics Logic book.

THat was the course that got me to thinking that there has to be more to life than this. Studying for that course was painful. It probably could only be surpassed by studying for Actuarial Certification exams.

To whomever has my book now... thanks!

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 2:36 PM | Report abuse

Sadly, Cassandra, our new attorney general has pledged to join the lawsuits against the health care reform effort. This is pointless, embarrassing and will cost us money we don't have. Our new AG has been a legislator (I think) and businessman, but little to no courtroom experience.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 2:54 PM | Report abuse

russianthistle, I think that was Daniel Patrick Moynihan (sp?) with the line about facts/opinions.

Thanks all for the links to good reading. I didn't catch up as much as I'd have liked to over the weekend. Perhaps one evening this week.

Has talitha weighed in on any of that? I believe she has an interest in the history of that time period.

Posted by: cowhand214 | January 10, 2011 2:54 PM | Report abuse

good information, gmbka, and I've often wondered if the drugs were hard to take. I know drugs can have awful side effects, yet I've met people that simply didn't want to take their meds because they thought that in itself labeled them as "crazy", for lack of a better word. It made them seem not normal. I find some feel the same way concerning physical illnesses also.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 2:56 PM | Report abuse


Wading through the strange partisan vitiriol attending the Tuscon shootings, the most surprising thing I found that could have helped prevent this is that states are responsible for entering the names of the psychotic who are reasonably barred from gun ownership into the background check database and their is a huge backlog in many states. Arizona is by far from the worst.

Even NRA members do not want to see the psychotic armed. (No invitation to more partisan vitriol invited.)

The other question mark is about the parents of the perp. It doesn't seem that they acted reasonably to keep their son and the public from harm.


Posted by: edbyronadams | January 10, 2011 2:56 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, cowhand! yes, it was Moynihan and quoted by Frank. ... Since the 112th was seated a few days ago, I guess we need to have them read that line to everyone, as well.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 3:00 PM | Report abuse

Ivansmom

I thought I had read that somewhere, wasn't quite sure. Well, if the state doesn't really have the money for such a venture, it is sad that what money is there should go for such an exercise. I'm sure there are other holes that need to be filled. There are in North Carolina, lots of them. Here, education will take a big hit, already has in fact.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 3:03 PM | Report abuse


The folks in the ivory tower have done away with those pesky things like facts since Moynihan's days. They've deconstructed everything into POV.

Posted by: edbyronadams | January 10, 2011 3:05 PM | Report abuse

This goes back to an earlier topic about religious humour. Although I am no longer a practicing Catholic I was raised as one in a very Catholic family. I found this commercial very funny.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/is-this-doritos-ad-blasphemy/article1864103/?cmpid=rss1&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheGlobeAndMail-Front+%28The+Globe+and+Mail+-+Latest+News%29&utm_content=Google+International

Posted by: dmd3 | January 10, 2011 3:21 PM | Report abuse

It is funny that you would post that just a bit after SciTim's post. He is somewhat ivory tower. But, before I jump off on what you are saying there. can you provide a "for instance?"

I guess what you are saying may very well be true, but how about an example or two?

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 3:29 PM | Report abuse

That last post (3:29) was for edbyronadams.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 3:31 PM | Report abuse

Cassandra, thanks. As to not normal, the key word here is chemical imbalance, which in many cases can only be helped with chemicals. If your body does not produce enough or too much of some chemicals, you have to add or suppress them. Unfortunately our researchers are not so good yet that they can replace them perfectly, thus the side effects.

A standard mantra in this context is always the example of type A diabetes. When you are born with a insulin deficiency, it is obvious that you have to add some to be able to live, there is no stigma attached.

I read a report on group intelligence research today that found, that the more women in a group, the smarter the group became. The women did not have higher IQs, they were just better able to cooperate and let everybody participate and contribute. Yeah.

Posted by: gmbka | January 10, 2011 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Sorry for my randomness having a relaxing afternoon, just noticed this clip of Gary Trudeau on a show up here that many of you may not have seen, in this clip - talking about Bush (GWB).

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheHour#p/u/8/f92bnv3XRgQ

Posted by: dmd3 | January 10, 2011 3:37 PM | Report abuse


A simple example would be the deconstruction of the truism "Columbus discovered America." Of course there were natives here already who knew they were here and the Norse, possibly others visited the American continent earlier. That deconstructs the notion even if Columbus' discovery tied into a system of understanding that was larger than that possessed by the Norse or the indigenous natives.

The other use of deconstruction, as I imperfectly understand it, is the undermining of the idea of "progress". The axiomatic tenet is that all cultures are equally valid so that there is no standard by which to give directionality to human history. Hunter gatherers are just as valid as agriculturalists as industrialists. Any view of progress over the ages is simply stamping the victor's in conflict POV on any idea of history.

Posted by: edbyronadams | January 10, 2011 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Curt: Okay, fans, here with 2 minutes 38 seconds left in the third quarter, Wingnuts quarterback Dancing Rabbit has been helped to the sidelines after what looked like a pretty severe self-inflicted groin pull.

Troy: That's right, Curt, that wa some hit he took, but he's shown a lot of resilience today. I think we'll see him back on the field before this thing's over.

Curt. Right you are, Troy. And with the Rabster on the bench the Nuts have sent in their backup, edbryonadams. Let's see if he can get this spirited but unproductive moving, for a change.

Troy: Curt, the Nuts have taken a tremendous number of shots today, but haven't been able to score even once. As we remarked toward the end of the first half, the defense has pulled a lot of their starters and sent in their second team, but even so the Nuts' offense is still struggling. What do we know about this adams guy?

Curt: We don't have much on him, Troy, even though he's been around a lot longer than this new rookie wunderkind, the Rabbit. EBA has yet to complete a pass, though he's tossed some long ones in previous games. He's a three-year man out of Tinfoil State--

Troy: The Mighty Fighting Didacts!

Curt: --where he went oh for 97 in his senior year.

Troy: Oh, man that musta hurt.

Curt: You'd think so, Troy, but ed has shown some real tenacity even in the face of mockery and ridicule. Ya gotta like his toughness and density.

Troy: He really likes to play within the game, Curt.

Curt: That's true. Okay, the officials have marked the ball at the Nuts own 2-yard line, and Coach Limbaugh and offensive coordinator Glenn Beck have sent in the play. What would you do here, Troy?

Troy: Oh, no question, Curt, I'd go right after left-wing academia. It's always been the weak point of the defense. I'd challenge 'em right off the bat.

Curt: Even on your own 2-yard-line?

Troy: Sure. It's the only way they can get back in the game, go for the long ball. What's the worst that can happen? A safety? A fumble in the end zone? They're already further down than a woodland duck's pillow, so they've got nothing to lose.

Curt: Okay, here we go. Palin at tight end is in motion. She's been pretty quiet today. Here's the snap... wow, look at that!

Troy: The old Fake Statue of Liberty Play, Curt, but this time the defense was ready for it. I've never seen a team spend this much time in its own end zone.

Curt: Ed looks shaken up on the play. The officials are spotting the ball on the 20, where the nuts will get a free kick after the safety. Let's take this opportunity to go to a commercial...

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 3:55 PM | Report abuse


Once again I am reminded that I'm in the wrong place for the reasonable and rational. I don't enjoy being tied to a lunatic when I have made no lunatic posts.

Posted by: edbyronadams | January 10, 2011 4:02 PM | Report abuse

We'll be the judge of that.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 4:05 PM | Report abuse

Fact: In 1492 Christopher Columbus sailed from Spain to the island of Hispaniola.

Opinion: Christopher Columbus discovered America.

Rant: Christopher Columbus's 'discovery' of the Americas unleashed a genocidal wave resulting in the death of 90% of the aboriginal inhabitants of the western hemisphere.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Fact: No significant caches of weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq.

Opinion: George Bush led us into a war on false pretenses.

Rant: Dubya's daddy issues in wanting to right perceived failures of his father as well as the desire of Dick Cheney to hand over Middle East oil assets to his cronies have resulted in the death of thousands of US service members at the cost of trillions of dollars.

This game is more fun the F/M/K.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of football, here in Deutschland the big game starts at 0230 Tuesday. Mr. F plans to set the alarm and get up to watch, I'll pass.

The Stars and Stripes is covering the AZ shootings mostly with WaPo and AP stories. They did offer some original reporting on the alleged shooter's attempts to join the military (rebuffed) and noted that in the early rush to jump to conclusions it had been reported he was a vet (erroneous).

From this vantage point the US seems to be almost completely populated by gun toting maniacs. Things that made me go "hmmmmm"-some politicians spend more effort on laws to make sure felons don't vote than to make sure guns are kept out of criminal and/or psychotic hands. Also, even if psychosis not politics was at the heart of this shooting, original thinking is in darned short supply. Perhaps no line can be drawn directly from Palin et. al. to this misdeed, but it sure normalized the idea for a not normal mind.

Auf wiedersehen boodle!

Posted by: frostbitten1 | January 10, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

eba,
As Limbaughian as your opinions of deconstruction theory are, I don't see how they are relevant to the current power structure in Washington. If anything, 'progressives' (not to be confused with the similarly named musical genre) are advancing the course of culture in a direction they perceive as being 'good', 'right' and/or 'fair'. Hardly the moral relativism you are accusing them of.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 4:20 PM | Report abuse

fb,
Have fun storming the castle!

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 4:25 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, funny but not fair. I was all set to defend the academy -- where, for the record, I have always learned and taught a respect for logical argumentation based on verifiable evidence (with an awareness of the possibility of errors of interpretation and methodological issues in data collection) -- but now I've got to defend ed instead. Please don't include me in your "we" who are equating him with ranting idiots.

Posted by: -bia- | January 10, 2011 4:26 PM | Report abuse

Fact: frostbitten1 wrote "Perhaps no line can be drawn directly from Palin et. al. to this misdeed, but it sure normalized the idea for a not normal mind."

Opinion: it looks like frostbitten1 is trying to say that even if this is not Palin's fault, well doggone it it's going to be Palin's fault.

Rant: Hypothetically - what if it is shown that Loughner never heard of the "target" website; never knew about it (I never knew about it until this incident) and was not influenced by it. Did the website still play a role in the shooting?

Rant, part deux: there are a number of people who won't let go of the idea that somehow, some way, this is the fault of Palin and the right wing.

You're right, yello, this is fun. :-)

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 10, 2011 4:28 PM | Report abuse

Lax gun laws in the state or Arizona sure didn't do much to ameliorate it. A 20 clip magazine is more than anybody other than a drug dealer or Hollywood action hero needs for self-defense.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Well, ed, satire has no business with being fair. As satire, I'd say that Mudge's 3:55 is pretty good. Funny, a little harsh, but basically not too extremely off target. As for fairness, I'll have to grant you that it goes a little over the line in that department.

Mudge, to be even-handed for ed, do you think you could work up some play-by-play and color commentary for problems experienced by the Moonbats? After all, we (yes, I said it: we) suffered some nasty setbacks in November. I'd say the score is in our favor, but the Wingnuts have shown some success of late, and they had several successful seasons leading up to their recent reversals of fortune. I can't think of anyone who could do a better job of writing that story.

And in soccer news: Real America United striker John Boehner is down on the field, holding his leg and weeping like a sprinkler. You can practically see the grass growing greener around him, which is impressive for Astro-Turf. The ref has delivered a yellow card against the Team Socialism enforcer, Nancy Pelosi, known for her brutal tactics in shutting down opponents' plays. Alright now, Real America is lining up for a penalty shot on goal against keeper Barack Obama, Kenyan ringer and captain of this scrappy pinko squad. Obama moves ever so slightly to the right, blocking out Boehner's strength, forcing him to shoot straight down the middle or even to go left if he wants to score... there's a hush as Boehner address the ball... and a flash of orange as he steps in and kicks with all his might! The ball shoots down the middle, flying past the Socialist's defense, heading for an open spot in the goal and an almost certain goal for Real America -- Oh. My. Goodness! Center Forward Harry Reid steps in from the left and blocks the shot, almost casually, in a virtuoso display of on-field skill! Reid is a master of this sort of subtle play, quietly dropping back down the field unnoticed, then appearing in just the right spot to get the job done. The Socialists now have the ball and begin to work their way back up the field, Pelosi throwing elbows left and right. She's flattened more than one opposing player, and so Real America stays alert to her slightest move. She's had a bit of a slump lately and no longer holds the title of lead scorer for Team Socialism, but she remains a formidable force on the field.

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 10, 2011 4:40 PM | Report abuse

Please, that was hardly a rant and only an unintentional jab at a solo Palin. Not Palin's fault, not his parent's fault, not our woeful health care so-called system's fault (therein lies a mini rant, within a rant denial FWIW) it was the shooter's fault. Everything else is context and enabling.

It is my opinion that course discourse makes course action seem reasonable. The et al includes any lefties who advocate violent action. I just didn't differentiate my observation as opion rather than fact because I loathe comments that start with IMHO. 99.99% of comments that state "facts" are just bs opinions anyway(pulled from the butt factoid, that most people will be afraid to post as their facebook status).

Or as my Apatheticism requires me to post as addendum-Or whatever. My lack of faith requires that I save rants for things like misplaced apostrophes.

Posted by: frostbitten1 | January 10, 2011 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Also, speaking as an Ivory Tower type in a field that confronts actual data, I can say that we are no more happy with deconstructionist "theory" than any other reasonably rational individual. Viz, Ala Sokal's hoax against "Social Text": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 10, 2011 4:43 PM | Report abuse

Okay, bia, you have a good point; I took a cheap shot (two actually) at ed, and I apologize.

I would agree EBA isn't in the same league with MH, although what they do have in common is their rightwing-ness. But no, ed isn't a raving lunatic, merely annoying (well, to me, anyway). It isn't his politics that bother me much, but rather his humorlessness, lack of general affability, friendliness, willingness to chat about inconsequentials, etc. By his own admission, he mistakes the Boodle as a place "for the reasonable and rational." It was never thus, not from the very first moment, and it tells me ed simply hasn't been paying attention to what we do here. To the extent he *is* aware of what we normally do, then I resent his coming in here like some Sunday School tight-butt insisting we all straighten up and behave seriously.

To a lesser degree -- if he were paying attention -- he'd also know by now we tend to be a pretty center-left outfit. He is welcome to come in here and discuss -- reasonable and with a certain amount of friendliness and courtesy -- his political views...but he doesn't do that, either. Of his own personality and background and history, likes and dislikes, he has given us exactly zero. So how can any of us grow to like a guy who *has* no personality and offers none? He is a cyber, and choses to remain so. That's his right. But we often describe this place as a corner taproom, whether people like that analogy or not. And so when somebody comes into the bar, insists we stop drinking, stop playing the jukebox, sit up straight, insults our politics, and expects us to behave like the Federalist Society, well, he can go... oh never mind. His error is that he mis-charactterizes this place -- and then criticizes it on the basis of that mischaracterization. Which he is free to do. And I am free to mock him for it.

The really ironic thing is that I intensely dislike deconstructionism myself, and a good bit of academia. I probably agree with him more than he suspects-- but he choses to politicize his criticism, whereas I do not. I dislike Derrida, I dislike PoMo, I dislike political correctness, perhaps as much as he does. But I don't demonize the people behind those ideas, and he does.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 4:46 PM | Report abuse

SCC: cyber should be cypher.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 10, 2011 4:49 PM | Report abuse

Tim - due to being born in Germany and living there for several years, I'm sort of familiar with the real game of "football." (The American military's Munich-area baseball and US-football facility, Harlaching Field, was shared with a football team named, um, let's see, oh yeah - FC Bayern Munchen. :-) And I'd have to say that:
1 - Obama moving right prior to Boehner taking his penalty is a yellow card; the 'keeper can't move until the ball's been kicked (although that one's let slide, a lot. But I suspect Referee John Roberts might not let it go.)
2 - Harry Reid rallying to block the shot is a major no-no. It's a straight red card; Harry's gone and suspended for the next three matches. The Pinkos will have to play the rest of this game with fewer players (wait, I've heard that somewhere) :-)

So, rewrite your satire with Referee Roberts dishing out the yellow to Obama, the red to Reid, and then Boehner retaking the kick. Let us know what happens. :-)

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | January 10, 2011 4:52 PM | Report abuse

SCC-my entire 4:42, of course Armybrat said my previous was opinion. Duh.

Jet lag. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Posted by: frostbitten1 | January 10, 2011 4:58 PM | Report abuse

OK, Ed, first off, I apologize, I am trying to actually work here. Sorry for the delay.

I am far from a scholar at this English thing, but I don't think that "Columbus discovered America" is a truism. At best, it is an incomplete thought, short of a truism.

I would peg it in the category of Prof. Irwin C. Corey, "World's Foremost Authority."

In the case of Academics, don't you get credit for discovery, if you can prove it in a peer-reviewed journal first? In the Norse v. Columbus deal, I guess you go to pier-review. (bows to mudge ... or is it prows?)

The second truism, I think that I understand your point ... but I don't understand your concern for the opinions of feelings of the long gone hunter gatherers. My concern here is that it "seems," but I don't know, that you are ascribing a preference to an academic analysis of societal infra-structure that one economic system may have over another.

There are clear survival advantages of one over another. I studied economics, stat and math and only did one required class in Anthropology--and the only reason that I went to class was that our professor was from Boston originally and she made me laugh every time she said the name "Raymond Dart."

My point would be, that I just don't see (1) what the issue here is; and (2) do you think that people at Universities spend much time studying this stuff? I would think that possibly what you are relaying is a caricature of what academics do.

Ed, you point this out and, for you, it seems to make some large political or social point and I hear it and I do the RCA puppy head tilt. WHAT?

Hey, I just don't get your point.

Of course, I mean no offense. At the same time, I feel that our country faces all sorts of problems that shouldn't be political in nature, but they devolve straight into a pool of hyperbolic statements within seconds.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Well, ArmyBrat, that's why I decided to stop playing even non-competitive league soccer. Because I stink at it. Really, really, badly. I will have to leave the rewrite to you.

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 10, 2011 5:02 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of the Sokal Hoax, the Rosenhan Experiment exposed psychiatric diagnoses as being rather fluid and inconsistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

My earlier rant on the rigor of psychiatry as either a medicine or a science stands.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 5:04 PM | Report abuse

Tim, non-competitive soccer? for you and AB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79vdlEcWxvM

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 5:11 PM | Report abuse

OK, Mudge, I can get that.

Funny about the whole deconstruction thing -- is that something the right-wing ranters rant about? I don't pay enough attention to know. Because I'm woefully ignorant of deconstructionism myself, having hardly encountered it in my many ivory-towered years. So I had the impression that it was pretty passé. Was this something that the ranters ran into back when they were in college? Is it part of re-fighting the culture wars of the '60's and '70's? I see scholarship and academia, when done right, to be centrally about examining assumptions, and I see how that could be troubling to a literally conservative point of view. But asking students to examine their preconceived notions is hardly deconstructionism.

Posted by: -bia- | January 10, 2011 5:12 PM | Report abuse

Actually Derrida had some good thoughts, but like everything and everybody, he's no good if taken seriously to the extreme.

"Contrary to what some people believe or have an interest in making believe, I consider myself very much a historian, very historicist [...] Deconstruction calls for a highly "historian's" attitude (Of Grammatology, for example, is a history book through and through)." -- Derrida.

And I think studying the historical context is a great thing.

But that stuff about cultural relativism isn't deconstructionist or about Derrida. It's from anthropology as early as 1887-- Franz Boas. This was an effort to overturn racial viewpoints in a highly racist age and to try and look at the culture objectively without all the "shoulds" in place. Like most subjective human endeavors, it's an ideal, not a reality.

Some overapply this ideal, some underapply it, and so on.

Where this goes wrong is when academics try and apply this to human inquiry-- that is, science.

They do so because they fail to realize that humans are, in the end, biological creatures in a physical world and do not vary infinitely in how they think about the world. They also often overapply this to human behavior, again from the same intellectual error, which may lead to moral relativism.


I found "On the Origin of Stories" interesting, and I think it helps undercut cultural relativism by pointing out some constants of human desire, and that religion in fact plays a pivotal role in human society for good reasons, and some behaviors are good-- adaptive and helpful to the group, and some are bad.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 10, 2011 5:14 PM | Report abuse

Lots of people wearing green and yellow around here on the left coast. I have to work tonight from 3:30 to midnight. But got the game scheduled on the DVR. Which isn't so bad because I can skip the commericals. Just have to warn my fellow custodians not to to tell me the score.
Been unseasonably extra cool around here lately in the banana belt. Been having freezing fog over a week. Makes for pretty landscapes in the morning. Wierd, at 4:00 AM it will be crystal clear but at 6:00 AM I can't see the mountain across the way. Luckly we are high enough the the sun breaks through about eleven. It's in the low twenties in the morning and not getting much above freezing in the afternoon. There is still a couple inches of frozen white stuff on the deck and in the back yard from the new year's eve snow.

Posted by: bh72 | January 10, 2011 5:14 PM | Report abuse

@bh72: Quack!

Posted by: MsJS | January 10, 2011 5:21 PM | Report abuse

... and, Confucius, he say, name go in book.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 5:22 PM | Report abuse

... and, Confucius, he say, name go in book.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 5:26 PM | Report abuse

Bia, yeah, I only encountered it in one course-- a different way of teaching literature and the arts in a historical context, including the prevalent philosophies in force then.

I loved that course to death, made all that "art movements" gobbleydook comprehensible to me at last; I saw what historical events those people were influenced by and commenting on, their relationship to each other. I really like history and this was fantastic for me.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 10, 2011 5:31 PM | Report abuse

"Selective use of Vattel's Law of Nations out of context is specious thinking."

"Law of Nations" is written in the Constitution, it gave the Founders the idea and justification to begin their revolution against England.

We know the copy of Law of Nations Washington borrowed from the library in New York, where he was sworn in, was never returned. If you want to locate the book..open Washington's crypt.

Why do liberals want to diminish the importance of the Law of Nations in the founding of the United States....the answer is simple..Obama as President is a crime against the Law of Nations.

Heck..lets take it another step..Obama is not a citizen according to the Law of Nations.

Jefferson wrote.."we must look to Vattel".

Several US Supreme Court Justices have stated..The Law of Nations is law of the land.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 5:44 PM | Report abuse

Well yello, it looks like the Arizona shooter had the Zombie Invasion magazine after all, I was apparently wrong to deem that possibility a low probability event. Details are coming out slowly but the local authorities say 31 shots were fired and the guy never switched magazine. So he must had the 33 rounds magazine sticking out of his gun but he couldn't load the last 2-3 rounds against the spring.
Personnally, I see 3 useful applications for a 33-rounds magazine in a hand gun: it makes for a snazzy drive-by shooting, it's coming in handy in case of a Zombie Invasion and homicidal lunatics can really pad up their tally. (see Fort Hood massacre)
Makes you yearn for the good old times when murderous maniacs like Sirhan Sirhan or Lee H. Oswald were limited to 5 or 6 shots before reloading.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 10, 2011 5:54 PM | Report abuse

It's just like the right wing suspected all along: Chomsky is correct!

ooops...

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 10, 2011 5:59 PM | Report abuse

The Law of Nations gave the Founders the idea states can form into a republic with out losing their sovereignty.

The Law of Nations was used by the Founders to form and create the United States.

Pamphlets quoting Vattel were printed and distributed to the Colonists giving reasons to revolt against the King.

Vattel wrote a nation cannot perpetuate its self unless its citizens are born from citizens. A nation should desire this. A natural born citizen is born to citizen parents.

This is a tragedy in the making we..have a foreigner as President.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 6:02 PM | Report abuse

Yello, much of medicine is subjective, unless you deal with a broken leg. But even in psychiatry some objectivity, as opposed to self-report, is achieved with the help of MRIs. I don't know a lot about it, but I have read that in people suffering from depression the hippocampus is reduced in volume by up to 10%. What is unclear is whether this is a cause of the illness or a consequence of it. MRIs are expensive and it is not likely that they are used for screening purposes. Unless somebody coughs up the money for a controlled study the finding of the reduced hippocampus will remain unexplained. My point is that psychiatry is
a young discipline and it will become more accurate over time.

Posted by: gmbka | January 10, 2011 6:14 PM | Report abuse

If we slather Grey Poupon all over the boodle, set a heavy frying pan with hot golden butter and show him we have white wine for braising and heavy cream to finish the sauce will it scare the rabbit away?

http://thefrugalcook.blogspot.com/2009/03/lapin-la-moutarde.html

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 10, 2011 6:19 PM | Report abuse

Curiously, Law of Nations is titled Rights of People in French, followed by a long subtitle that could be construed to mean Law of Nation.

"Droit des gens; ou Principes de la loi naturelle appliqués à la conduite et aux affaires des nations et des souverains"

I looked at the copy in the Google library last weekend: boring. As it was noted by many historians since its publication it is a minor work. It's a summary of the practices of diplomacy and government in the early-mid 18th century in Europe. There was not a democracy in sight; it's all about kings, queens, princes and their vassals. Great model to follow.

Overall, I prefer Sebastian Vettel over Emerich.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 10, 2011 6:36 PM | Report abuse

Vettel, Vattel, what's the difference?

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 10, 2011 6:38 PM | Report abuse

I suppose I should try to understand all this discussion, but I'm eating my third bowl of snow cream.

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 6:45 PM | Report abuse

sd,
Concur. Law of Nations is no The Prince or Wealth of Nations. It's no more 'law' than the Communist Manifesto is.

For some white supremacist to latch onto it like it was some sort of holy grail is as ridiculous as all those potential assassins devouring Catcher In The Rye. Which seems to be the one staple of nutball literature not glommed onto by our Arizona psycho.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 6:48 PM | Report abuse

Um, do allow me to poke my head in here to suggest that the theory of psychiatry is a whole lot different from psychiatry as practiced. Those who practice it come to it with a huge excrement-load of their own biases and carrying a like-sized cudgel of control which they tend to use to keep their patients where they want them to be. Generally speaking, of course. I have a family member (gene pool only) who is a psychoanalyst and is -- as we say -- *nucking futz*. Truly, he is. His second wife had a license to practice psychiatry, and if she wasn't the most mentally disturbed person I ever met, she certainly ranked in the top two. I mean, she was bizzzzzzzzare. As Ann Landers used to say, the rocks in her head fit the holes in his (or vice versa). The profession tends to act as a magnet to those who need it the most, but don't exercise it on themselves.

I think self-awareness is a wonderful thing to have, and it's continual through life. It's not easy, either. Not all practicing "therapists" are good, and not are bad. Just takes some good old fashioned due diligence to find someone who fits.

Howzat????

Posted by: ftb3 | January 10, 2011 6:50 PM | Report abuse

That is why neuro-psychology is so fascinating; getting objective clinical insights into states of thinking/being that were the realm of philosophy and spirituality until quite recently (I include Freud and Jung and their cohort in the ranks of philosophers).

Posted by: Yoki | January 10, 2011 6:51 PM | Report abuse

Mudge, I don't know that edbyronadams deserved that, but BOY was it funny. ScienceTim, you too - and I'm ignorant of soccer so was amused by the whole thing. Yellojkt, very nice fact/opinion/rant examples. A risible interlude all around.

EdBA, like bia, I wondered about your deconstructionist rant. I have a few ivory tower credentials myself, though they're aging. It has been at least since the '80s since I've heard any real effort at deconstruction, and it didn't look quite like what you describe. Based on my almost worthless experience I'd assure you there is little to worry about. Deconstructionists aren't going to take over the minds of our children any time soon. In fact, it is inherent in the discipline, such as it is - if you can't agree on what you're taking over or how, it won't happen. [That was a joke.]

I also note you did just what I predicted earlier that someone would: suggested that Loughlin's parents must not have done a good job of protecting him or the public from harm. As I mentioned, oftentimes parents in these situations are well-intentioned but truly do not know what to do. Faced with what seems like an array of bad choices, they sometimes choose the worst, which is to wait. I only see this stuff after a crime is committed. As I'm sure gmbka would agree, this stuff is complicated.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 6:53 PM | Report abuse

I thought you guys could use a little sunshine.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/tom_delay_sentenced_to_prison.php

Posted by: Boomslang | January 10, 2011 7:04 PM | Report abuse

Don’t you think we’re not keeping score, brother” – Obama

“Bring it on”- Obama Regime to The American People.

“Get ready for hand-to-hand combat with your fellow Americans” – Obama

“I want all Americans to get in each others faces! – Obama

“You bring a knife to a fight pal, we’ll bring a gun” – Obama

"Republicans are our enemies"--Obama

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”

** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“

** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”

** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”

** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

“the Cambridge Police acted Stupidly” ” – Beer Summit Gaffe Leader

“God Damn America” – Barrack Hussein Obama’s Spiritual Advisor

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 7:04 PM | Report abuse

Yes, I've always preferred the neuroscience approach, although cognitive psychology is a great discipline in its own right. The difficulty in focusing on reductionism alone is figuring out quite how to deal with disturbances in the gesalt, though.

I think sensory psychology is going to yield a lot of insights-- not just in the wiring (which is slightly modifable-- I think of those pathways more as rivers that can change courses somewhat rather than thin, fixed wires), but in how chemical disturbances affect that.

Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia all yield identifiable changes on the MRI or fMRI. But so does multiple sclerosis and many other disorders traditionally considered neurological, not psychological.

There are a few dozen genetic disorders that yield psychiatric symptoms-- often in syndrome with physical symptoms.

I myself think bipolar disorder should be pluralized, because it's a catch-all category for a variety of genetic issues often conflatuated with real changes resulting from childhood-onset PTSD, etc.

I'm sure if we approached mental illness like we approached cancer and did serious workups and investigative work we would discover many more metabolic disorders that cause psychiatric symptoms.

To me, depression is not a diagnosis. It is a symptom; depression (anergia, withdrawal, negative mood) is a characteristic of illness. It's like a cough, really. Sometimes it resolves, sometimes it doesn't, but it always indicates something is wrong--either mild or terminal.

Never stop at the cough.

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 10, 2011 7:04 PM | Report abuse

Where I live, parents don't have the resources or really don't know what to do when their children or relatives have mental health issues. There's not much out there for poor folks because so many of us rely on the state for that kind of help. I suspect if one has enough money, perhaps something can be provided, not sure about that either.

According to the description given by the reporter on CNN for the hearing before the judge, the suspect came in quite calmly and answered questions politely. In other words, he wasn't a raving maniac. The reporter sounded surprise. Of course, that mug shot is a different story. He seems to be smiling.

I believe even people with mental health issues may have strong political views, but can't control that or any other situation going on in their lives.


ftb3, that 6:50 comment of yours was funny, excuse me if it wasn't meant to be. I couldn't help myself, I laughed.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 7:09 PM | Report abuse

"The heartland strategy begins by choosing likely targets for Democratic gains. Let's go to the map":

"behind enemy lines"


http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 7:17 PM | Report abuse

How's the snow cream, Slyness? Send me some.

I like the thingy by Mudge too, it was funny. I mean some of this stuff that's being told is funny, but the subjects aren't actually funny. I don't know, maybe we just need to laugh sometimes and not be so serious. And I don't mean laughing at the tragedy that happened in Tuscon, no, no, because that isn't a laughing matter. I mean some of the comments here.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 7:20 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Cassandra. I think humor can be found anywhere, regardless of the circumstances. That the new resident wabbit, exhibiting pretty clear OCD habits (a wabbit with a habit) makes me laugh, too. Does the wabbit actually believe that he/she can convert us to his/her way of thinking? I guess he/she is merely responding to the voices in his/her head. Such as it may be configured.

I have met more than my share of truly humorless people -- you know, the kind you have to actually explain humor to -- and I make it a point not to stick with them for long. But that they simply cannot process humor does make me laugh.

Posted by: ftb3 | January 10, 2011 7:24 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps staying in this apartment all this time is getting to me. Alrighty, let me see if I can find my meds. There must be something in my stash for "stir crazy".

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 10, 2011 7:25 PM | Report abuse

LOL, Cassandra! When you figure what works for stir crazy, let us know. You'll be sitting on a gold mine!

Snow cream was good and I ate too much. However, make sure your fax is on, 'cause some is coming your way! (I make it with sweetened condensed milk [reduced fat, of course], a little vanilla, and clean snow.)

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 7:31 PM | Report abuse

Fine, I'll concede that America is going to hell in a handbasket, and that it's largely because of all of the liberals & foreigners. Heck, I'll even concede that the current President is not a citizen. But what are you gonna do? He controls all of the really big guns.

Mostly, I think you'll have to do what you'd have to do even if he were a real American: Convince others of the rightness of your views (as you're so eloquently attempting here) and vote him & his minions out of office in order to get some policy changes going. My earnest best wishes for you as you proceed with the effort!

Posted by: Bob-S | January 10, 2011 7:33 PM | Report abuse

Thanks boko, I've seen that. No doubt it will go all the way to the Supreme court though, Tom trust his buddies Bob, Tony, Sam and Clarence.

Slyness, don't eat the yellow snow. It's not lemon-flavoured.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 10, 2011 7:36 PM | Report abuse

Having lived in academia most of my life, with a few years out to play in the fields of electronics and performing arts, I've judgments to spare on recent comments, based on empirical experience.

edbyronadams is simply wrong. Facts are very important. We spend our careers arguing over facts, asserting facts, taking them apart again to see how they work, what they work for.

The great majority of academics in the great majority of their work do this naively, with no more question than the driver raises in asking whether the light is green or red. Other time it appears in the form of normal argumentation. EBA made a factual statement. Is it a true statement or not? I am disputing it. Are my statements true or not?

And sometimes students of literature, language, philosophy, history, etc, like to look under the hood at how the making of facts is achieved. They may recognize an inherent irony in their attempt at a description of a machinery they can't give without using the kinds of statements they analyze. This is, however, a specialized study within a small group, perhaps like string theorists within the scope of physical scientists and engineers. So at a minimum, we might wonder why EBA's statement of fact uses this group to characterize the whole of academia. What is the genesis, what is the use of this "fact"?

Science is a human activity, and we bring our biological, social, communicative and dominance-seeking behavior to it as much as any other. You can learn by applying a relativism about the truth value of factual statements made in science, as Bruno Latour demonstrated in his analysis of scientific practice constructs and deconstructs facts, playfully positioning himself as a Martian anthropologist studying an alien society.

For ScienceTim - yes, Sokol tripped up the editors of Social Text - by playing a different game, intentional deception. We've also had the recent BJM disavowal of a published article linking autism to vaccines. Nevertheless, the more a field of inquiry becomes self-referential, the easier it is to slip free of moorings in empirical or verifiable foundations. Fad does play an easily observable role in the humanities, but the bulk of those in the field keep doing the same work, fashionable or not.

And a question for EBA: What is wrong with hunter-gatherers? Their main problem may have been that agriculturalists and pastoralists could support larger populations, more warriors, and take over their ranges and resources. They often lived healthier lives than those who replaced them. What criteria do you use to judge which societies are more advanced than others? What values do you assign priority in deciding those criteria? It's not that POV is everything; instead POV is at least something, and as the Loughner debate shows, it's often a dominating factor.

Posted by: j3hess | January 10, 2011 7:48 PM | Report abuse

To la lapine, I make only one suggestion to you, we will forever think you an idiot until you take something that you post and make a statement of purpose. At this point, you may want to make a point or just go away.

Posted by: russianthistle | January 10, 2011 7:55 PM | Report abuse

Got it, SD. The snow Mr. T brought in was pure white.

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 7:59 PM | Report abuse

What jhess said. As someone else around here said recently, it is nice to have so many different kinds of expertise hanging out on the Boodle.

And I could almost feel grateful to dancingrabbit. I haven't read any of its posts after the first one - I find humorless gibberish tedious, and life is short - but its posts have inspired some great responses the past few days.

I may also say that Beatrice appears unamused by this misappropriation of lagomorph terpsichore.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 8:01 PM | Report abuse

"He controls all of the really big guns."

The majority of combat soldiers are White conservative Christians. The more liberal soldiers and blacks seek combat support roles.

90% of direct combat soldiers, infantry, armor and special ops, and pilots do not like Obama and his socialist agenda.

Since Obama was elected..a study needs to be done..regarding the placement of officers and soldiers who are considered liberal in leadership positions.

We know he placed a non qualified black female NCO to be in charge of the Drill Sergeant school.

Posted by: dancingrabbit | January 10, 2011 8:04 PM | Report abuse

White supremacist rabbit is a perfect example of the supremacists I have run across in my day. They spend all this time and effort trying to show how they are superior or try to build up all these silly unrelated factoids and hundred-year old statements to make them feel better. They actually somehow believe that the collection of junk they carry around in the beaten-up suitcase of a brain proves something.

I just look at them, what they do, how they act, how incoherent they are and think: this is a superior being? To what?

Posted by: baldinho | January 10, 2011 8:05 PM | Report abuse

Ducks or Tigers? what does everyone think?
I had to go with the Tigers because my neighbor in west by god is a pac-10 fan.We bet a rack of wood if I win and I dogsit his dog if the ducks win.

Posted by: greenwithenvy | January 10, 2011 8:12 PM | Report abuse

According to Wikipedia, Derrida was a member of the Village People:

Derrida was a member of the Village People. Although his membership in Class IV, Section 1 (Philosophy and Religious Studies) was rejected; he was subsequently elected to Class IV, Section 3 (Literary Criticism, including Philology.) He received the 2001 Adorno-Preis from the University of Frankfurt.

Posted by: -pj- | January 10, 2011 8:15 PM | Report abuse

I gather you are speaking of teams playing a sporting event, gwe. Normally I would pick ducks over tigers any day, since ducks can fly. However, I see that flying from your opponent might not be considered sporting, and might not result in a win. So, on name alone, I'll go with tigers.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 8:19 PM | Report abuse

I believe that Barack Obama was also a member of the Village People, when they first got started in Kenya back in the early 1970's

Posted by: Bob-S | January 10, 2011 8:20 PM | Report abuse

I was born in Oregon, so I have to go with the Ducks. Considering my luck last weekend, I just guaranteed their loss tonight.

Posted by: -pj- | January 10, 2011 8:33 PM | Report abuse

slyness, could you spare a little of that snow cream because I would really like to throw a few well aimed snowballs, too cold here to make snowballs from our snow.

j3hess and others are such a nice antidote to the rabbit.

ftb I am still giggling at "wabbit with a habit".

Posted by: dmd3 | January 10, 2011 8:33 PM | Report abuse

Cassandra, thanks for mentioning ftb3's 6:50. Ftb, I think my experience with those who practice in that field is very similar to yours.

J3hess, I am with you on hunter-gatherers. I have read a lot of Jared Diamond's stuff. The people he has spent time with in New Guinea seem to have achieved somewhat a happy steady-state existence. They'll be just as happy in a month as they are today. There is a lot to be said for living an existence where your equations and algorithms don't have a lot of variables.

Posted by: baldinho | January 10, 2011 8:34 PM | Report abuse

dmd, I'll have to send Mr. T out to get some more, we ate it all. But that's not a problem, there's plenty. Make sure the fax is on and waiting for it!

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 9:10 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of snow cream ...

Some are lucky enough to have the snow delivered to their doorsteps, and get a day off of school or work into the bargain! I had to load the family into the auto, and go to the mountain! Driving on freeways! With traffic and everything!

And then I didn't hardly think about bringing any back for snow cream. A few others may have been thinking of it as they scooped snow into the back of their vehicles. We just thought they were slightly loopy.

So, I deserve what I brought - and wouldn't dream of asking any of you to fax me any. Just saying, appreciate what you've got.

Posted by: j3hess | January 10, 2011 9:13 PM | Report abuse

We have alternated between light snow and light sleet all day. So far it hasn't really been a traffic hazard. While we need the moisture, I hope any ice holds off awhile. It is supposed to get, perhaps, into single digit cold weather here. 9 degrees F is very cold for us.

This evening I had to borrow a heavy-duty extension cord from a neighbor. Our well water tank is in our shop, behind the house. If the temperature gets into the low teens it freezes. Fortunately we discovered running an electric heater on low in the shop will prevent the tank from freezing. Sadly, when I went out to turn on the heater, I found out late this afternoon that something had chewed through both our heavy-duty extension cords. I suspect squirrels or (shudder) rats, based on scatological evidence. We have never had rats before. They didn't poke their heads out while I was there, which suggests squirrels. I think rats would gloat.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

My son had the first day of the spring semester called off. He had to go from Baltimore to Atlanta for a snow day.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 10, 2011 9:38 PM | Report abuse

I think even such hearty specimens as Alaskans & Russians will tell you that 9F ain't exactly toasty warm.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 10, 2011 9:39 PM | Report abuse

The Girl has reached 10 weeks. She now has a lot of personality, and shows lots of emotions.

She recognizes people and, if you are talented, you can make the correct series of googlyfaces at her and she'll grin from ear to ear and coo.

I have been working on my technique a lot, and am quite adept at googlyfaces. It is addicting.

Posted by: baldinho | January 10, 2011 9:40 PM | Report abuse

I guess I meant "hardy" specimens. But they're hearty (& hale) too.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 10, 2011 9:42 PM | Report abuse

One of the main problems with gathering and hunting is the prospect of occasional severe famine, or perhaps disease. Agriculturists, until recently, probably were somewhat better off in terms of food security, but at least populations were larger. I'd be reluctant to call gathering a steady-state means of existence, except that it can be sustainable over very long periods. Notwithstanding that when humans showed up in Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, the Caribbean, and perhaps the rest of the Americas, they set off all sorts of extinctions and changes in the vegetation. In NZ, research published last months shows that burning replaced forests with grasslands long before the English showed up with sheep.

I think Napoleon Chagnon commented that the Yanomamö people he knew lived more interesting lives than most folks back home.

Steve Martin had young Einstein chatting with young Picasso at a bar called the Lapin Agile. Maybe they were drinking absinthe and becoming deranged?

I've gotten introduced to Kickstarter, an online system for funding arts projects. It's somewhat like the 18th and 19th century practice of selling subscriptions for a project like Audubon's birds or Catesby's birds and plants, then using the money to do the work. Assuming the naturalist survived, the subscribers got a valuable return. A printmaker, now in Canterbury, New Zealand, has a Kickstarter project to make etchings of the scenery.

Posted by: DaveoftheCoonties | January 10, 2011 9:57 PM | Report abuse

I don't think my weather here has been as cold at 9F, yet this year - that is cold.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 10, 2011 10:05 PM | Report abuse

It's the ducks... it's the tigers... it's the ducks... it's the tigers... I tell ya, my mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 10, 2011 10:11 PM | Report abuse

I watched this video earlier in the day and it is somewhat on one of the topics discussed. About the man who discovered the Norse settlement in Newfoundland, quite an interesting guy who spent a lot of time in the far north of Canada, including spending time with a tribe that hunted caribou - in the video he describes their feast, famine lifestyle.

Perhaps not the best NFB film but interesting.

http://www.nfb.ca/film/man_discovered_america

Posted by: dmd3 | January 10, 2011 10:13 PM | Report abuse

Yello, normally when we get snow, it comes from Atlanta and follows I-85 northeast. That's what happened today. One of Elderdottir's friends is in Raleigh, and she posted on Facebook around suppertime that they hadn't seen any snow yet.

Exciting, baldinho! The best part of babyhood is watching them learn about the world.

Ivansmom, darn rodents. Doesn't really matter what they are, what a nuisance. I haven't seen any rats around here, but we used to get mice in the house once in a while. I suppose we've cleared out enough in the backyard that they don't come near any more. I'm cool with that.

Mr. T and I saw three deer under a streetlight on one of our walks last week. They are a nuisance too.

Posted by: slyness | January 10, 2011 10:19 PM | Report abuse

For a couple of years (when I let some of the flowers get out of hand) I had enough hummingbirds buzzing by (at unpredictable moments, from unpredictable angles) that I considered them a nuisance. It's somewhere between disconcerting and heart-stopping to have something that sounds like, and from the corner of the eye looks like, the mother of all wasps go zinging by your head.

I miss that.

Posted by: Bob-S | January 10, 2011 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Awwwww, baldinho. I have a certain bias towards daughters, of course, but in spite of that your ladybaby-report made me smile softly to myself.

Posted by: Yoki | January 10, 2011 10:32 PM | Report abuse

Congratulations, baldinho, on developing an essential skill for entertaining The Girl. She is training you well.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 10, 2011 10:38 PM | Report abuse

Bob-S, I was startled to see hummingbirds up here in Minnesota when I first came. They usually migrate south by around week two of September, and sip the jewelweed just before they go.

Ladybabys are year-around residents, and survive the harsh climate by hibernating in heated caves, and occasionally going out in thick coccoons transported by others. No matter the season, ladybabys are completely darling and never emulate angry turbo-charged wasps.

Continue your googly facial calisthenics, Balinho. It's doing your circulation and sense of humor good :).

Posted by: Wilbrod_Gnome | January 10, 2011 11:16 PM | Report abuse

cool stuff, baldinho. something new every day. that will continue, even through transescence. 7.1" of snow and layered ice on top of the latter, and a ful day of being in it. dog duty early in the am., sledding through the middle of the day, 4 wheeling and unearthing the vehicles in the pm, dog duty again. noisily through the ice and snow. temps in the single digits by friday. oy, and this is the south? as in the title, no country for old men. doughnuts on the 4 wheeler sure are fun though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAngg5v4hxo&feature=related

never knew that bowie did many covers. wonders of the ethernet.

Posted by: -jack- | January 10, 2011 11:40 PM | Report abuse

Good evening, all.

I've been more busy than usual lately and just finished my days (work and paternal).

Somewhat disappointed that I wasn't able to participate in discussions of the terrible events in Tuscon this weekend, but it's probably for the best.

The more I learn about it, the sadder it becomes to me. And gives me more consideration for the nature and importance of personal and public responsibility in this Brave New World of ours.

Good night, all.

bc

Posted by: -bc- | January 10, 2011 11:44 PM | Report abuse

Let me just note that the popular vote today has 6 Tucsons (not counting 3 in the kit and one in a link up top) and 8 Tuscons. Contrary to the popular vote, however, the correct spelling of the city's name is "Tucson", spelled "Tuck-sin" (as in "tuck in, son, there's plenty o' sin for everyone!") but pronounced "too-sahn."

As the automated 411-lady says: "Thank you. Please make a note of it."

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 11, 2011 12:48 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, Tim! We all feel better when we're corrected by a peer. So that's Tucson, pronounced Too-sahn? See, I've always thought it was pronounced toosawn. But I'm probably wrong. Not even probably, but for sure.

Posted by: Yoki | January 11, 2011 12:57 AM | Report abuse

For the birther rabbit:

http://forumromanum.org/literature/cicero/arche.html


Marcus Tullius Cicero
The Speech for Aulus Licinius Archias, the Poet


translated from Latin to English by C. D. Yonge (London: Henry G. Bohn, 1856)

"10. And as this is the case, what reason have you for doubting about his citizenship,..."

Read it all, Rabbit. George Washington didn't limit himself to Vattel or Cicero - and certainly didn't use out-of-context sound bites to prove a point.

Your specious and illogical reasoning applied universally would disenfranchise the citizenship of the vast majority of people in this nation of immigrants and their descendants of mixed national heritage.

Your reasoning would very probably show that YOU are not a citizen.

Posted by: -tao- | January 11, 2011 12:59 AM | Report abuse

*Bowing* Ah, Too-San!

Posted by: Yoki | January 11, 2011 1:05 AM | Report abuse

"Bring in bad act." Fun with anagrams.

Posted by: Jumper1 | January 11, 2011 2:21 AM | Report abuse

I promise not to decode that one, lest we encourage.

Posted by: Yoki | January 11, 2011 2:53 AM | Report abuse

I promise not to decode that one, lest we encourage.

Posted by: Yoki | January 11, 2011 2:53 AM | Report abuse

I promise not to decode that one, lest we encourage.

Posted by: Yoki | January 11, 2011 2:53 AM | Report abuse

I *really* promise! Sorry, all.

Posted by: Yoki | January 11, 2011 2:57 AM | Report abuse

DaveoftheCoonties: I have also read a couple of accounts of the earlier and current lifestyles of the hunter/gatherers (if you count eggs as gathering) of northern Greenland. It is a very hard existence, and is prone to weather-induced tragedy.

It seems modernity has crept into their lives as well, with the typical battle between the "let's adopt" and "let's stay traditional".

Posted by: baldinho | January 11, 2011 6:04 AM | Report abuse

Now that it is 04:00 my time, I shall crawl away hoping to sleep until 11:00. And since it is 06:00 am in DC, I shall leave some porridge and yogurt and brown sugar and 1% milk and fruit salad on the Ready Room table. Steel-cut oatmeal is in the chafing-dish. Milk, brown sugar and yogurt in the cool-table, and coffee (both caffeinated and not) and tea in the urns.

Help yourselves.

Good morning, darlings.

Posted by: Yoki | January 11, 2011 6:10 AM | Report abuse

'morning all. We have achieve Oklahoma temperature; -12C/10F. I hope it doesn't last as there is very little snow on the ground to prevent deep freezing.
Me too, son.

Posted by: shrieking_denizen | January 11, 2011 6:21 AM | Report abuse

Rumor has it that we are due for some snow today...

Posted by: ScienceTim | January 11, 2011 6:45 AM | Report abuse

Good morning. The backboodling made me sufficiently awake to start the daily chores. But before I do that, I want to point out to Wilbrod's 7:04pm yesterday, that depression can be both, a symptom as well as a disease, very similar to hypertension, for instance. But unlike hypertension it sadly leads sometimes to sudden death.

Posted by: gmbka | January 11, 2011 6:49 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, all. Hi Cassandra! I hope you are warm and comfortable. Since the sun's not up yet, I can't tell the state of the yard, except that it's white. My new weather station says that it's 28.9 degrees in the carport. Cool enough.

Thanks for the lovely breakfast, Yoki, and I hope you sleep well.

Posted by: slyness | January 11, 2011 7:06 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, you all. It's just too dern for dawn patrol today. First light, I expect I'll see birds at the feeder soon.

Posted by: VintageLady | January 11, 2011 7:34 AM | Report abuse

'Morning, Boodle.

Can anyone render a theory as to why, in Loughner's mugshot, presumably taken Saturday, he has a roundish face and a completely shaved head, whereas in the artist's sketch of him (presumably made Monday) he has a long, thin Ichabod Crane face and head shape, and the caption says his face is swollen and bruised (but doesn't appear to be either, in the sketch).

Excellent David Brooks column: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/opinion/11brooks.html?hp

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 11, 2011 7:47 AM | Report abuse

I really liked Eugene Robinsons column but I was not going to take the slightest peak at comments on that one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011004763.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Posted by: dmd3 | January 11, 2011 7:52 AM | Report abuse

I saw what you did there, Bob -- Hedley's lawyers will be calling, no doubt.

I'm left wondering which code monkeys I need to talk to in order to properly revise the storm models and get more snow around here.

*setting-a-reminder-for-11:11 Grover waves* :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 11, 2011 8:20 AM | Report abuse

God loves us so much more than we can imagine through Him that died for all, Jesus Christ.

Good morning, friends. Dmd, I read Eugene Robinson this morning also, and made the fatal mistake of reading some of the comments. I shouldn't have, nasty! I mean, really nasty! Everyone I read folks were defending the use of guns.

Slyness, can't hear a thing this morning, ears ringing to beat the band. I took cough medicine last night because the cough has come back really bad. I couldn't find anything for "stir crazy". We have ice everywhere. Ice on top of snow, not a good match for getting around.

bc, so glad to hear from you. Hope you are well, and the family too. The news is sad, and some of the stuff coming out people's mouths makes it even sadder.

I don't think I'll be traveling today, much too dangerous, unless the ice melts, but I don't believe it will get warm enough to do that.

My daughter sent me a picture of the baby on my cell phone, and in the picture he is sleeping and smiling, a real big grin. My daughter texted me and said he's faking! I thought I would fall out the chair laughing. She always says he's faking. I guess she knows, she's the mother. He just looks like a little angel to me.

For those of you surrounded by snow and ice, be careful if you're brave enough to go outside and have war with the elements. Please check on the elderly. And in spite of the bad weather, have a lovely day. Love to all.

Posted by: cmyth4u | January 11, 2011 9:05 AM | Report abuse

Guten tag boodle!

Today's exciting event, thus far, was watching Germany's highest peak disappear. The sun is now on the Austrian side of the mountains. After a bright sunny morning/early afternoon it sank just a smidge and everything was instantaneously enveloped in fog. One of the coolest weather phenomena I've ever seen, and I've watched tornadoes skip across North Dakota wheat fields.

Fighting, and losing, a battle against an addiction to Oldies Radio in Deutsche.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9qco36cmKM&feature=related

Posted by: frostbitten1 | January 11, 2011 9:23 AM | Report abuse

Howdy y'all. It is just darn cold here. Thanks to a simple extension cord we have water this morning. Ah, the miracle of electricity. It pumps the water from the week, and provides the energy to warm the tank.

I thought of another reason to thank annoying rabbit. It has done a lot to increase Joel's comments for this Kit. I hope this is a one-time offer; surely it can go work it's comment-producing magic on some other, more deserving, blog.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 11, 2011 9:23 AM | Report abuse

Ivansmom, - Perhaps it's a rabbit that chewed through your extension cords. My sister once had a bunny that she let freely roam through the house and it chewed through all the power cords behind the furnature. I seriously think the silly wabbit got a thrill out of the 120v 60hz electrical shock from biting through the insulation on the cords.

Posted by: WhackyWeasel | January 11, 2011 9:40 AM | Report abuse

While looking at a story online of a (suspected) armed standoff in downtown Toronto this morning (all ended OK) I noticed the commuter updates from the various modes of transport and this one jumped out at me - best commuter update ever!

A fleet of parked beer vats will affect the Tuesday morning commute in the Halton area, police said.

They will be parked on the east shoulder of Trafalgar Rd., north of Derry Rd. in the Halton until 9 a.m., then travel north to Steels Ave. north to Trafalgar Rd., as well as to Winston Churchill Boulevard into Peel region.

The Halton Regional Police Service is reminding the public of these disruptions so commuters can plan accordingly

Posted by: dmd3 | January 11, 2011 9:41 AM | Report abuse

Well. Electricity pumps water from the well. Although I'm very taken with the image of pumping water from the week.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 11, 2011 9:43 AM | Report abuse

Good morning, y'all.

Warm muffins. coffee and OJ on the table.

TWC will get about 5 inches of snow today and tonight. Glad I ran lots of errands yesterday.

baldinho, thanks for sharing news of The Girl.

Interesting college football game last night. Could've gone either way, but Auburn prevailed.

Cassandra, cute story about the little one!

Off to play in paperwork (is that possible?). Everyone stay safe and snuggly.

Posted by: MsJS | January 11, 2011 10:01 AM | Report abuse

Just remember, dmd, that those beer vats are empty. Not at all worth the effort of hijacking them...

Posted by: byoolin1 | January 11, 2011 10:13 AM | Report abuse

How about kidnapping them?

"If you want to see your vats again, unharmed, you'll deliver a dozen gross cases of the finished product, unmarked, to..."

:-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 11, 2011 10:16 AM | Report abuse

Anyone in the Richmond, VA area that could update me, are there a lot, any closures due to weather - thanks.

Posted by: dmd3 | January 11, 2011 10:20 AM | Report abuse

Scotty - Glad to see my hard work was appreciated! I spent several minutes trying to do it from memory, then surrendered and looked it up.

Posted by: bobsewell | January 11, 2011 10:34 AM | Report abuse

I thought Michael Gerson's column this morning was thoughtful.

"Is Arizona shooting an empty search for meaning?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011004603.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Posted by: bobsewell | January 11, 2011 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Whackyweasel, if the cords were in the house I would certainly blame a rabbit. Beatrice, alas, developed an early taste for electrical cords, including computer power cords. She's a chewer of opportunity, so her movement inside is restricted to rooms where the cords are hard to reach. It would be bitter irony indeed if a wild rabbit had taken up residence in our shop, the better to chew through cords.

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 11, 2011 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Wouldnt' that be a wascally wild wabbit, I-mom? :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 11, 2011 11:08 AM | Report abuse

OK, so it's 11:11 on 1/11/11 and I really don't have anything to add to that.

Thank you.

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 11, 2011 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Happy 11:11:11 1/11/11.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 11, 2011 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Hi from India...yes, having homes in three continents is a bit excessive I know...
Haven't finished backboodling yet, so please forgive misunderstandings and irrelevancies, but I did want to note that I take extreme pleasure having corrupted hundreds of natural born minds with science.
As a non-natural born.
Bwahahahahaha!

Posted by: DNA_Girl | January 11, 2011 11:17 AM | Report abuse

Missed it by *that* much.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 11, 2011 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Well, in keeping, did you miss by 1, jkt?

Posted by: russianthistle | January 11, 2011 11:23 AM | Report abuse

George Will was parroting the Booth-Hinckley continuum on This Week but I'm not to what end except to exculpate Palin and her ilk. But it seems to be solidifying as a conservative talking point.

I read a tweet long lost in the stream but it was along these lines:

Right wingers: Don't reflexively blame us for the actions of a crazed nut.

Typical Muslims: Welcome to our world.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 11, 2011 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Also, I'm setting up a buffet chaat stand for lunch. Feel free to pick up your plates of choice (hot/medium/mild):

Bhel puri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhelpuri
Pani puri/Golgappa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pani_puri
Dahi alu puri
http://www.hookedonheat.com/2008/04/23/home-is-where-the-chaat-is-alu-dahi-puri/

contd.

Posted by: DNA_Girl | January 11, 2011 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Wada pau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vada_pav

and fresh fruits for dessert,
Chikku
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manilkara_zapota
and
Peru
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guava
are in season

Posted by: DNA_Girl | January 11, 2011 11:46 AM | Report abuse

DNAGirl,
Thanks for the golgappa. They're delicious. Where I'm from they're called 'hush puppies'.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 11, 2011 11:50 AM | Report abuse

I read the WaPo comments so you don't have to:

Gerson lists "The Communist Manifesto" and "Mein Kampf" but omits "We, The Living" by Ayn Rand. Perhaps not crucial to his thesis, but telling.

And for historical nit-pickers, John Wilkes Booth was shot by Union soldiers sent to capture him, and was not hung as claimed by Gerson.

Posted by: yellojkt | January 11, 2011 11:59 AM | Report abuse

In the central time zone it's now 11:11 on 1/11/11.
*cue the confetti*

Posted by: MsJS | January 11, 2011 12:11 PM | Report abuse

I agree with you that Booth was shot at Garrett farm, yello -- but did you know there's an entire little cult of people who claim Booth escaped. They're like Grassy Knollers or Elvis Is Still Alive types. There's an entire town in Texas (where else), Granbury, that thinks Booth escaped and went to live there. There's even a mural on the wall of a store there celebrating the fact. Then there's a couple of other theories as well. Nobody claims he went to Bolivia with Butch and Sundance...but that gives me an idea...

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 11, 2011 12:29 PM | Report abuse

SCC: Using the word "fact" loosely.

Posted by: curmudgeon6 | January 11, 2011 12:34 PM | Report abuse

What? Are you suggesting Elvis isn't alive?

Posted by: Ivansmom | January 11, 2011 12:46 PM | Report abuse

I do now. I can't recall if the Booth Lives conspiracy was covered in 'Assassination Vacation.' Between Sarah Vowell travelogues and Sondheim musicals one could get the impression I'm oddly obsessed with the topic, but it ranks pretty far down on the list of my interests.

[Disclaimer just in case the Secret Service is monitoring the boodle.]

Posted by: yellojkt | January 11, 2011 12:48 PM | Report abuse

Been reading intermittently, but so struck with sorrow that in this in-between-semester time, am praying and meditating on the pain and challenge here.

May this time, if we are brave and resolute enough, be later known as a sea change in our political discourse and respect for one another.

Posted by: CollegeQuaParkian1 | January 11, 2011 12:58 PM | Report abuse

New kit, yonder:

Posted by: byoolin1 | January 11, 2011 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Oh my, 1:11 on 1/11 How unusual. :-)

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 11, 2011 1:12 PM | Report abuse

New Kit!!!

Posted by: Scottynuke | January 11, 2011 1:13 PM | Report abuse

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