Network News

X My Profile
View More Activity
On Twitter: kcarrera and PostSports  |  Facebook  |  E-mail alerts: Sports and Redskins  |  RSS

Former Caps prospect Eric Mestery retires

In a bit of odd summer news, former Washington prospect Eric Mestery has decided to retire from hockey because "the game was no longer fun for him," according to the general manager of his WHL team, the Tri-City Americans. Mestery was a second-round draft pick in 2008; the Capitals cut ties with him in June.

The 20-year-old Winnipeg native asked that he not be traded, according to Tri-City Americans GM Bob Tory, who said Mestery "informed me that the passion and commitment needed to play at this level was gone."

Read more here and here.

By Katie Carrera  |  August 5, 2010; 11:12 AM ET
 
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Caps renew affiliation with Stingrays
Next: Roundup on the Ilya Kovalchuk arbitration hearing

Comments

Is this the definition of a bust?

Wow.

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 11:30 AM | Report abuse

Another brilliant draft pick, McPhee seems rather useless outside of the 1st round.

Posted by: PhilR | August 5, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

not to mention, he was yet another tall beanpole player who got easily pushed around on the ice. Looks to me like he had no stomach for the game. So we dumped one of our 2006 2nd rounders (Seabrook) to Calgary and now our 2008 2nd rounder busts out.

The 2006 draft is looking mighty weak after the 1st round; 2007 looks to be a complete bust outside of Alzner, 2008 has no real standouts outside of Carlson (and that one kid who got us our 4th line part time enforcer.). The 2005 draft was an utter bust.

tell me again how McPhee has turned into this incredible drafter after yrs of crappiness? Or are we hoping that Bouchard and Perreault will become impact NHL players to help salvage at least part of the aforementioned drafts? And don't even mention Kugryshev. He looks like another undersized soft skilled player in the making. And I've heard that if players aren't even in the AHL yet it means they apparently suck.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 11:45 AM | Report abuse

From previous thread:

@PhilR

I dont disagree that Niemi isnt better than the youngsters we have. However he has won in the playoffs and our two talented youngsters havent. Yes Varly won a series against the Rangers, a team who couldnts score goals even if we gave them an empty net that season.

Varly and Neuvy are more talented, but even just by 1 playoff season Niemi is more proven. Both of our guys are RFA's after this season, so if you could lock Niemi up with a 2 year $4-5M deal why not?? Trade Neuvy or Varly in a package for a Dman or a 2C. So Im not saying Id sign Niemi and trade one of them, but I could see the reasoning behind it if it happened.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 11:47 AM | Report abuse

George McPhee is a bust.

One more season before change.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 5, 2010 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Just to clear up any misconceptions about this notion that GM has figured out how to be a good drafter - all he's improved upon really is his choice of 1st rounders. He still is highly ineffective drafting after the 1st round. Cody Eakin may end up being a good player but he's one of the rare exceptions of a McPhee draft pick after the 1st round and is still unproven. MP may or may not turn out to be a decent player, I have doubts about that. Bouchard is also unproven.

So what other prospects are out there that proves McPhee has gotten the draft figured out?

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 11:56 AM | Report abuse

@ThePat,

I see your point but I would counter with this:

Put Varly or Neuvy in net with the D-corps that Chicago had last year and they would more than likely be Cup champions themselves right now. Goaltending, in my humble opinion, is not the problem.....a young/finesse D-corps is the problem.

Posted by: PhilR | August 5, 2010 11:57 AM | Report abuse

We need to improve our entire concept of defense before worrying about the goalie situation.

Until this organization makes a committment to defensive hockey, from the GM to the coaches to the players, it doesn't matter who is in net.

We'll continue to be the reckless, run and gun Phoenix Suns of the NHL that doesn't have the grit or discipline to lock it down come playoff time.

The GM is the most crucial component of a winning organization in the cap era. You can get top draft picks but balanced teams win when it matters. It's up to the GM to build a balanced team.

1 series win in GMGM's rebuilding era... and it was by the slimmest of margins. Sure, we lost close ones too but we've yet to win a series in convincing fashion because we don't have teams built to win in the playoffs.

Look at the teams that have won in the hard cap era. Look at their GMs and the moves those GMs made before and during their cup runs. Then, compare it to McPhee's resume.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 5, 2010 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Cstanton1,

dude are you serious? some players(kugreshev,eakin) aren't even old enough to play in the AHL,so they are in juniors

Posted by: Jgray85 | August 5, 2010 12:05 PM | Report abuse

And I really don't care what stats people want to use to try to justify this or that series loss. The Caps simply don't play committed team hockey in all 3 zones and that is due to McPhee failing to acquire the right balance of players and Boudreau failing to teach good habits. We're a fun, high-scoring team but we're soft and undisciplined at the same time.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 5, 2010 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Now there are minions.

Its an official movement.

We all are witnesses!

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

@PhilR

I dont disagree.

@tmac2yao

That isnt going to change for a while. The GM hired a coach who likes this type of player/style. Odds are GMGM would be gone before Bruce so the new GM would be responsible for getting the same type of player. So in respect to you blaming GMGM for that, youll be blaming whoever is GM as long as Bruce is the coach and this style is in play. At least thats my take on it and Ted is very very loyal so not sure changes are coming anytime soon.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

If GMGM does not draft well after the first round then why do people whine and moan when he trades one of the prospects?

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 12:09 PM | Report abuse

Cstanton1,

dude are you serious? some players(kugreshev,eakin) aren't even old enough to play in the AHL,so they are in juniors

Posted by: Jgray85 | August 5, 2010 12:05 PM | Report abuse

tell that to some of the folks here who claimed that because Della Rovere hadn't established himself at the AHL level yet it automatically meant that was a great deal for the Caps to trade him for King.

In other words, I was being a little facetious.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

If GMGM does not draft well after the first round then why do people whine and moan when he trades one of the prospects?

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 12:09 PM

because SDR was one of the very few prospects who actually looked like they had some potential to fill a much-needed quality role player void on this team. Nimrod.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

@PhilR

really? First off u can't blame GMGM for drafting someone who later decides hockey isn't for him...and why is it that all the PROFESSIONAL people involved in hockey think GMGM is one of the best GMs in the league.

Posted by: capscoach | August 5, 2010 12:12 PM | Report abuse

@Pat

Bruce doesn't establish his style of play without the GM's firm endorsement. A different GM could tweak the roster and force Bruce in a different direction.

I'm not saying Bruce isn't the problem as well. Just that he brings other good things to the table that under some better firm guidance, he could be steered towards a more balanced approach and roster. With Hershey, he had that counterpart in Doug Yingst. Here, its like letting frat boys run thru whorehouses with fistful of $50s. There's no restraint!

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:15 PM | Report abuse

First off u can't blame GMGM for drafting someone who later decides hockey isn't for him...
----

i don't know about that. Part of your research into a prospect should include how seriously he appears committed to hockey. I think if they'd done their due diligence on this guy they'd see he was always kinda soft in the head. He seemed to lack that fiery attitude that he wanted to be the best at what he did. I wouldn't put all the blame on McPhee for this because sometimes even players who seem serious about the game can flip on a dime. But McPhee's not blameless either. He went for a finesse type of player who didn't appear on the surface to be highly competitive. Lets just say that I'm not surprised Mestery quit hockey. I'd be more surprised if a Della Rovere type quit the game.


"and why is it that all the PROFESSIONAL people involved in hockey think GMGM is one of the best GMs in the league."

because they can keep the caps mired in reg season greatness.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Bruce doesn't dictate squat. He's gonna be on the hot seat along with McPhee sooner or later.

One more poorly constructed, poorly disciplined team that bails out in the 1st round and even the loyal Ted will feel compelled to make a change.

He may have sold out the building for the time being, but he knows that won't last forever if people are losing faith in the direction of this once-promising team.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 5, 2010 12:22 PM | Report abuse

@capscoach,

YES REALLY! Take a look at his draft history outside of the first round...can you name a player that has made a REAL impact at the NHL level that was drafted after round one?

Posted by: PhilR | August 5, 2010 12:24 PM | Report abuse

Now there are minions.

Its an official movement.

We all are witnesses!

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 12:08 PM | Report abuse

holy awakenings batman!

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:25 PM | Report abuse

cstanton...you are a work of art...yawn.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Who cares if some lower round draft choices do not pan out. The team is winning and is likely to keep on winning. I guess we will have to "listen" to the whiners until GMGM retires. I have come to believe that winning the cup will not cause them to cease and desist.

adhardwick

Posted by: adhardwick | August 5, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Now that you have minions, you have an obligation to set an example.

Rise above the petty name calling.

Speak nothing but truth.

Forget about the lunch money GMGM took.

And for gods sake, man up to at least a six pack before you call it quits.

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

@adhardwick

I think you are completely wrong. I think the people that you label as so called "whiners" are the ones that want the Cup the most and just arent afraid to speak their mind about things. If the Caps win the Cup this year or any other year, I wouldnt complain about anything the team does for a long time. We'd have a freakin CUP!!!!

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

We need a couple of guys who would kill their own mother to win a cup. We don't have too many of those guys on this team. It's one thing to be a skilled hockey player. It's quite another to have competitive FIRE!

Posted by: sca187 | August 5, 2010 12:35 PM | Report abuse

nimrodrsp,

You really should get youself checked out for a sleep disorder, that yawning could be a danger sign!

Posted by: PhilR | August 5, 2010 12:36 PM | Report abuse

lets just look at the proof.

McPhee's draft resume:

1998 - bust
1999 - bust
2000 - bust (sort of, we did get some mileage out of Pettinger and a little out of Sutherby)
2001 - bust
2002 - bust after 1st round
2003 - bust after 1st round
2004 - bust after 1st round
2005 - bust
2006 - bust after 1st round
2007 - bust after 1st round
2008 - bust after 1st round (and 1 of the 2 draft picks in the 1st looks to be a bust also)
2009 - jury out
2010 - jury out

--------------------

I don't ever want to ever effin hear again that McPhee is now a great drafter. A few of us could sit around and just select players based on draft rankings and come up with a few more hits than he did. What essentially allowed him to save face was the fact he was able to find some talented scorers in the 1st round over the past several yrs and got lucky with the lottery pick for Ovechkin. He has that going for him, and not much else. Backstrom, Green, Semin, Ovy of which Backs and Ovy were no-brain picks at that point in time. Carlson looking like his best overall pick considering where he got drafted.

Not an impressive resume at all. His only asset seems to be he can once in a while pick up a scorer in the 1st round. Whooptee fkn do.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:37 PM | Report abuse

The 1st round is the most important of all the rounds. Yes, a GM would like to do well in every round and there is always room for improvement in the NHL draft by all GMs.

But compare the Caps 1st round selections to those of all other teams since 2002.

They drafted:

Alexander Ovechkin(goes without saying),
Nicklas Backstrom(a top center),
Mike Green(two time Norris finalist),
Alexander Semin(one of the top goal scorers in the league),
Eric Fehr(20 some goal scorer),
Semyon Varlamov(good goalie who has played well in the playoffs, we will see how good he can become),
Jeff Schultz(solid 2nd pairing defenseman),
John Carlson(looks pretty good and possibly 1st pairing D-man),
Karl Alzner(TBD, will be a top 6 D-man this year and we will see how good he will become),
Boyd Gordon(eh, 4th line center).

MJ and picks this year it is too early to determine much.

Please find another team that has drafted that much talent in the first round since 2002. Pittsburgh and Chicago, maybe. But that's it.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 12:39 PM | Report abuse

Now that you have minions, you have an obligation to set an example.
-----------------

that's a horrible burden to bear.

To the minions: I am not a role model.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

Now that you have minions, you have an obligation to set an example.
-----------------

that's a horrible burden to bear.

To the minions: I am not a role model.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:41 PM

lol

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 12:42 PM | Report abuse

(In regards to GMGM's drafting and comments made by cstanton1) Ahh, sweet sweet contradiction. Drink it up.

And really? You are questioning whether or not they did their best to determine if the guy was committed. Because, its impossible to feign commitment. (rolls eyes) Grasping at straws are we?

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 12:44 PM | Report abuse

Please find another team that has drafted that much talent in the first round since 2002. Pittsburgh and Chicago, maybe. But that's it.
-----------

invalid comparison.
Other teams had to pick later in the 1st round by virtue of being better teams over the past decade.
And last time I checked, you judge a GM on more than just the 1st round. Its the ones who can make better selections past the 1st round that show their true worth. It takes more talent as a GM to find NHLers past the 1st round. So why lower the bar for McPhee and restrict this discussion to only the 1st round since he was the beneficiary of some decent draft position (considering he drove this team into the cellar for a while).

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse

On Varly:

He has a 10-9 playoff record(ok, but not great), but in the Rangers series he pitched two shutouts and two 1 goal games. He was the 1st star twice, 2nd star once and 3rd star once. His two losses were 2-1 and 1-0.

Varly was excellent against the Pens excluding game 7(his only bad playoff game) and was the only reason games 3 and game 5 against Pittsburgh went to OT as the Caps were outplayed in both of those games, he also played excellent in all of the Caps victories. The Caps were outshot and outchanced in that series. Varly almost helped steal it for the Caps.

Varly was the 1st star in games 3 and 4 against the Habs, then let up 2 goals, 3 goals, 2 goals against the Habs in games 5, 6, and 7.

He also had the 2nd lowest GAA in this past year's playoffs for goalies who played in at least two games. Again, pretty good.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 12:48 PM | Report abuse

drafting good/serviceable role players AFTER the first round is where GMs and the scouts really earn their money.

why would you even need a scouting staff if all you were worried about is the first rounds?? a monkey could pick Ovi with the first pick.

imagine how better this team would be if some of their lower rounds pick produced a couple good PKers. nobody is looking for offensive superstars after the first round, all we're looking for is good role players.. is that too much to ask MCPHEE???

Posted by: joek443 | August 5, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

And really? You are questioning whether or not they did their best to determine if the guy was committed. Because, its impossible to feign commitment. (rolls eyes) Grasping at straws are we?
--------------------

no, its not impossible to feign commitment. I do it all the time.
But considering the type of player Mestery was, he was largely a floater. A tall skinny kid who was asked to be a physical player, tried it vainly in the juniors, got pushed around quite a bit, then retreated from that style of play. In the WHL championship this yr he caved like a house of cards against the Hitmen. That's why without really knowing his internal thought process, it seemed to me that he was a bit soft in the head and didn't have the stomach for the game.

A kid with more tenacity may not have quit the game. That's why when you go drafting for certain qualities, you have to take mental tenacity into acct. Mestery didn't display much of that. Which is why I said I'd have been more surprised if an SDR type had suddenly quit the game because he plays hockey with a lot more gusto than Mestery did.

Do I blame McPhee completely? of course not. But I'm not willing to say he's "blameless" either. You draft enough softies, you'll have this kinda stuff happen to ya. And when you draft em high, that hurts a little more.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:51 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

No, the comparison is valid, you just refuse to do it because you know the results would look very favorably upon GMGM.

Either way, do not reply to me or my comments.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

we coulda had jimmy hayes, danick paquette, or zack smith with that Mestery pick. All 3 of those iirc were ranked higher on every public draft board and all 3 of them would've given us some more size and grit. Zack Smith already has cracked the NHL. Paquette got very favorable reviews in Atlanta's camp and looks on track to be in the NHL in a yr. Toronto was high on Hayes but dealt him this yr for a young power forward draft pick named Brad Ross who by all accounts has the size, skill and toughness to be a legit NHL power forward.

Mestery was just a tall soft dman. I guess they can't all be Schultzie.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

its gonna be a real looooooong summer in here

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

@sgm3

McPhee has had success in the first round, that is obvious. After that he hasn't had much. Its really not a big deal, he's had enough picks in round 1 to pile throughout the system. And if Perrault, A. Gordon or Pinner break through its good. But all those guys are offense, we need some D to be drafte in my opinion.

On the Varly side of things, the Rangers stunk that year and couldnt score goals. Versus Pittsburgh he was good for the first 2 games and after that average. Against Montreal he was good enough. His GAA for the playoffs will be low, Mtl and NYR werent offensive powerhouses. To say hes proven when his series record is 1-2 I don't think you can say that. If a goalie wins a Cup, keeps you in or steals a series on his own he is proven, those are my standards for the playoffs. Again just my opinion.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:00 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

No, the comparison is valid, you just refuse to do it because you know the results would look very favorably upon GMGM.

Either way, do not reply to me or my comments.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

i really want you to stop replying to my replies. Very aggravating.

Still, invalid comparison because you narrowed the scope to fit your point without taking into account other valid factors such as draft position. And of course, only a fool would judge a GM based only on one round of hockey. If that's the case he should just trade every pick after the 1st he can since he's proven he's useless picking after the 1st round.

again to summarize - McPhee el stinko after 1st round. And he only figured the 1st round out halfway thru his tenure. What a prize he is. That reminds me, I need to buy more darts for Marcel my blindfolded monkey. I'm getting his draft resume together to submit to Ted next month.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

cstanton...I can honestly admit (to myself) that any thing you have typed here is wrong. The problem is 'how you say it', and say it, and say it.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse

@sgm3

before you come back with D has been drafted, yes I know Orlov and Stevenson are projected to be good players so D has been drafted. But they arent here yet to prove what they got.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:04 PM | Report abuse

@joek443

If drafting in the 1st round was so easy then all teams should have about equivalent success. So then why do the Caps have such a higher success rate in the past 8 years in the 1st round? How have the Capitals drafted better 1st round talent than every other team if it so simple as you point out.

Then you do realize that based on first round draft picks in the '90s, a first-round draft pick has a 63 percent chance of being a career player(at least 200 games played in the NHL). Most of those are not at the talent level of the many of the Caps picks.

Yes, Ovie was an easy pick. The others, not really. Remember Erik Johnson was picked #1 in Backstrom's year and a good amount of people had Kessel ranked ahead of him. All others(except Alzner) were outside the top 10.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 1:05 PM | Report abuse

I think the "GMGM is the worst ever" crowd should consider the odds of a 1st round pick, let alone a 2nd rounder playing in the NHL. This is not an old Sega NHL game where your 1st round pick is a guaranteed All Star. Look:

Success rate of first-round draft picks

Of the 494 career players drafted in the 1990s, 160 were selected in the first round.

Based on the 1990s sample, a first-round draft pick has a 63 percent chance of being a career player. Not Ovy or Green- Jeff Schultz.

Results can vary widely from year to year:

The 1993 NHL Draft produced 22 career players from 26 first-round picks.

In 1999, less than half of the first-round selections went on to become career players (12 out of 28).

From 1990 to 1999, about ONE-QUARTER of the players selected in the second round turned into NHL career players.

From over 2,000 players selected in the third round and beyond during 1990s, just 261 made it as NHL career players. That's about 12 percent.

So- shocker! A skinny 18 year old stayed skinny and gave up at age 20. 75% of the second round will follow suit after Mestery.

GMGM had a great draft in 04 with Schultz and Green as late 1st rounders. Bust in 05-sure. Go look at the 06 draft Riku Helenius went before Varly- want to trade for him? Backstrom was not rated by HF to be where he is now either. He was no 8A. I think he was a 7.5 C in fact. How about Neuvy in the 2nd round of 06? Might want to GMGM some credt, actually. After Ovechkin he got the hang of it.

I am just as scared of being the Ottawa Senators of the next decade as the rest of you- but the come on! There is cap room and tougness to be had at the trade deadline for a lot less than what Toronto wants for Kaberle for less risk. So how about we stop freaking over the FA market and stop acting like SDR was a @#$!@^! piece to the 2014 Cup?

Posted by: brasidas422 | August 5, 2010 1:09 PM | Report abuse

you can't fairly judge the goaltending of this team till they have at least a top ten defensive team but to me their goaltending is BETTER than the D playing in front of them.

if Varly had the hawks D playing in front of him instead of this group, he'd be at least as good as Niemi and probably better.

Posted by: joek443 | August 5, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

imagine how better this team would be if some of their lower rounds pick produced a couple good PKers. nobody is looking for offensive superstars after the first round, all we're looking for is good role players.. is that too much to ask MCPHEE???
--------------------

he has a hard time finding role players via the draft. Bradley, Clark, Steckel, Laich, are all decent role players acquired in ways other than the draft. Pinizotto was also a FA signee. BGordo is the only role player (and he's not a quality grinder at all) that McPhee drafted. Using a 1st of course. But we'll give him a pass for that since it was a weak draft yr although he coulda had Talbot that yr :)

On defense, no role players or depth players drafted either. Its an unbalanced roster and system fed by an unbalanced drafting style. Fed by an unbalanced GM.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

Stevenson was also a FA pickup. Mostly for the minors. They expected him to play in the ECHL this yr. His camp was good enough that he's now being considered for a Hershey spot.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 1:14 PM | Report abuse

@ ThePat

The Rangers couldn't score, but still managed to put up 4 goals against Theo in game 1. Pittsburgh had good scoring depth, and Varly was the main reason that series went 7. Against Montreal, he was stellar in the initial onslaught by the Habs in games 3 &4. Had it not been for Varly, this team would have lost in 5 or 6.

Though Niemi won the Cup, he was not stellar throughout the playoffs. Twice he gave up 4 goals to the Predators who have less scoring depth than the Habs. The Canucks scored 5 on him in game 1 of that series until Chicago's offense remembered that it was the playoffs. The Sharks, hadn't played well against the Blackhawks all year, and he was below average against the Flyers.

Chicago has a MUCH better defensive core and play a much better defensive game than the Caps. Put Varly (or even Huet) in net, they still win the Cup.

Posted by: ablake70 | August 5, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

I know hes a FA pickup but FA's at that age are like late round draft picks. Still takes the eye to recognize them and bring them in.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Sgm 3. We were both typing at the same time. Does this mean I am skating on your team and marked for a big hit from cstanton 1?

cstanton1: I do it see it your way from time to as well- to be fair.

Not like I am an expert anyways.

Posted by: brasidas422 | August 5, 2010 1:19 PM | Report abuse

well if we're going to open up the door to how teams have done in the FA market (i.e the Dustin Penners of the world), we can do that as well. This is a draft discussion. We don't need scope creep :)

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

I wonder how many of the people who are saying that drafting in the first round is easy are the same as those who would have selected Kessel over Backstrom?

Just kind of curious, not trying to call anyone out.

Posted by: piratusus | August 5, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

@ablake70

Did Niemi win the series and then win the Cup????? Yes....winning series is the bottom line in the playoffs.

Rangers 4 goals in game 1 against Theo yeah I know. Did you notice how the boys played in front of Theo that night??? They played not like a playoff team, thats why the Rangers scored 4. And if you think Varly was stellar after game 2 vs the Pens than we are watching a different goalie. Before game 5 against the Habs this year I watched warmups and told everyone Varly was gonna let in goals early, he was shaky as hell in warmups.

To me Varly has all the talent in the world, I would never say he doesnt. But to be an elite goalie you have to be mentally there for 60 minutes a game as well, so when he proves to me he can do that I will back off in my criticism of him. I am much higher on Neuvy than Varly obviously.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:23 PM | Report abuse

@brasidas

no one's saying GM is the 'worst'. That term should be reserved for the Phil Espositos of the hockey world.

But I frequently hear how GM has finally figured out how to stock this system via the draft, and I don't see it. So unless you make a ridiculously narrow argument the way sgm is prone to do to fit his point, this is not what i would call an impressive resume of drafting. If McPhee submitted this resume ahead of time, how many of you would salivate over this?

1998 - bust
1999 - bust
2000 - bust (sort of, we did get some mileage out of Pettinger and a little out of Sutherby)
2001 - bust
2002 - bust after 1st round
2003 - bust after 1st round
2004 - bust after 1st round
2005 - bust
2006 - bust after 1st round
2007 - bust after 1st round
2008 - bust after 1st round (and 1 of the 2 draft picks in the 1st looks to be a bust also)
2009 - jury out
2010 - jury out

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 1:26 PM | Report abuse

@ThePat

I agree that GMGMs success after the 1st round hasn't been that great(Neuvy and MP may help change that but this is TBD). But like you said it doesn't matter as much if you hit on a high % of your 1st round picks.

I agree that the Rangers had absolutly no offense and the Habs offense wasn't that great either. But all a goalie can do is play well against the teams he faces and he did manage to keep those teams from scoring(especially the Rangers).

Varly was absolutely awesome in game 3(I think his best ever) against Pittsburgh too. That was the game the Pens had about 7 PPs to the Caps 2 and outshot the Caps 42-23. The OT goal was the one that deflected off of the Caps D-man. Varly was actually named 3rd star of the game that game.

They were also badly outshot in games 5 and 6 too(both OT). 42-31 in game 5 and 42-24 in game 6(Varly had 17 saves in the 1st period to keep the Caps in the game).

Varly had a horrible game 7 against the Pens but he played pretty awesome throughout.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 1:26 PM | Report abuse

its gonna be a real looooooong summer in here

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

long and cruel one my friend. I don't envy any of you. I've almost blown my load for the summer though so there's that to look forward to.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 1:28 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1: No need to bother with scope creep, I won't stick up for GMGM in the FA department. Pretty tough to do.

Posted by: brasidas422 | August 5, 2010 1:29 PM | Report abuse

I don't know why anyone even chooses to focus on the goaltending when everyone knows they couldn't win a 1-0 game even if they had Jacques Plante or Ken Dryden between the pipes.

Philly went to the SC finals with a career minor league goaltender, to me the goaltending is the least of their worrries.

Posted by: joek443 | August 5, 2010 1:33 PM | Report abuse

63% of 1st rounders play 200 or more games. If about 25% of 2nd round draft picks manage to play 200 or more games, and only 12% of 3rd or higher round picks do the same. So, if he's been involved in picks for 10 years, then in that context, have 3 of his 2nd rounders played 200+ games? and have 6 of his 3-7th rounders played 200+ games? If so, you're wrong and they've at least done an average job of picking. If you're right, the numbers will show it and you can properly indict him, because his philosophy is to build through the draft and if it takes him 500 picks to get the number of career players that other organizations need only 300 picks to acquire, he's not doing his job.

Posted by: hockeyweasel | August 5, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

@sgm3

On the Pens series. He was at his best in games 1 and 2. Game 3 he was good, not as good as the first two games in my opinion. Game 7 he stunk. Game 4 and 5 I didnt think he was very good either, despite the shots thrown at him. Just bc they are shots does not mean they were quality, look at us vs Montreal this postseason. Game 6 he woke up and played better.

So if you look at games 3-7 you can see why I think he was average after the first 2 games. He also only won 1 of the last 5 games and thats when I look at a proven goalie. A proven one could stand on his head and win one more of those games.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:34 PM | Report abuse

I've read that the Caps have more of their first round picks on their roster than any other NHL team. That should count for something, no? Would they be a better team if they had blown their first round picks and had success in later rounds? Are there any successful teams like that, that are build primarily on late round picks? It would be nice to have occasional success in the later rounds (I had high hopes for SDR), but what is the success rate overall for such players? Do a lot of them make all-star teams? Some of the complaints just seem to me like having a gourmet, 7 course meal and complaining we didn't like the color of the napkins.

Posted by: zmega | August 5, 2010 1:37 PM | Report abuse

FYI according to multiple sources Willie Mitchell has received a clean bill of health. Has taken physicals for a few teams and apparently wants to play in SJ or Washington.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:38 PM | Report abuse

cstanton,

2007 2nd rounder Neuvy is a bust?

Posted by: Steve_R | August 5, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

@ ThePat

if you agree with Al Koken and I do, Game 3 against the Pens last year was the best playoff performance from Varly. The team was flat and they lost the game in OT. they should have won that game and went up 3-0 in the series.

that game and Game 3 against Montreal this year were his best two games IMO. but they could only win 1 of 2. it just goes to show the goaltending can only do so much.

this team plays better when they're down 3 games to 1 than when they're up 2-0 or 3-1. at some point you gotta wonder why that is the case.

Posted by: joek443 | August 5, 2010 1:42 PM | Report abuse

no one's saying GM is the 'worst'.

Posted by: cstanton1

i think i just felt the world begin to spin backwards

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 1:46 PM | Report abuse

Last year the Caps showed in a number of that they were capable of playing a team wide defensive game. San Jose and Boston come to mind. Unfortuneately, there were not alot of them. On many nights it seemed like they were somewhere else mentally. Then someone would turn on the switch they skated like the best effing team in the world. Somewhere there has to be a balance and the coach needs to find it. No matter what GMGM does the rest of the off season, we all will know how the season will go in the first 2 weeks of the new season.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

The odds are that everybody is a bust after the 1st, so your chart is more the norm than evidence of a problem. I said after Ovy he seems to have figured it out, and I think that is fair.

Baby Gus was lame from the get-go though.

Posted by: brasidas422 | August 5, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

@Steve_R,

I would say the jury is still out on Neuvy. He really hasn't played enough at the NHL level to be judged a success as of yet. I truly am hoping he is the answer as the future #1 as I worry about Varly's durability. So yes, Neuvy may be a 2nd round success for McPhee but in my opinion we will have to wait and see.

Posted by: PhilR | August 5, 2010 1:48 PM | Report abuse

@joek443

Thats fine, I have no problem with people thinking that was his best game. Im just giving my opinion.

And they play better down because they are young and they get desperate. They dont have enough veterans to teach them what a killer instinct is and to step on someones throat when they have a lead.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:49 PM | Report abuse

cstanton,

2007 2nd rounder Neuvy is a bust?

Posted by: Steve_R | August 5, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

well, lets put it this way. He's largely unproven and it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't end up being a quality starting goaltender. But for the sake of fairness, lets call him an acceptable prospect to this point with some big question marks.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 1:50 PM | Report abuse

Did Niemi win the series and then win the Cup????? Yes....winning series
is the bottom line in the playoffs.

The Pat-Teams win the Cup, not individual players. Chicago won because they had a good team and favorable match ups. Had the Blackhawks faced the Redwings, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Posted by: ablake70 | August 5, 2010 1:52 PM | Report abuse

@ThePat

I agree that Varly didn't play that well in game 4 either.

If a guy played well or not is just a matter of opinion and I respect yours. I just want to add some info on here to show some things that helped me reach mine(viewing the games was the most significant factor but we all did that)

I was curious so I was reading the stories after each game and the writers were speaking very glowingly of Varly after games 3, 5, and 6(he also played great in games 1 and 2 as you said). Basically the writers were saying the Pens were completely outplaying the Caps except for the amazing play of Ovie and Varly.

But that's neither here nor there. I would feel comfortable going into the playoffs this year with a healthy Varly.

He does have 19 games of playoff experience which is more experience than either Halak, Niemi, or Leighton entered this past postseason with.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

@ablake70

Yes I know teams win the cup. But a goalie is a large factor in it.

And yes if the Blackhawks faced the Wings they definitely would have lost. Haha.

Just like if the Caps had faced the Canadiens they definitely would have won. Oh wait....

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

cstanton...I can honestly admit (to myself) that any thing you have typed here is wrong. The problem is 'how you say it', and say it, and say it.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 1:03 PM

hmmmm
This is a familiar sentiment buddy.
Think about your minions, they are counting on you!

REPRESENT

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 1:58 PM | Report abuse

@sgm3

Yeah I know, its just a difference of opinion. Like i said to joek, I have no problem with it. I might be wrong, Ive been wrong before.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 1:58 PM | Report abuse

This discusssion is silly. News flash: most draft picks bust. Its why there are many rounds in the draft.

But, one amusing tidbit about Fehr, who clearly had his development stunted so far based on injury: The player drafted immediately before him was Zach Parise and right after was Ryan Getlaf. Yowzer. Fehr is finally coming into his own, but imagine what either one of those guys could have done for us.

Posted by: oldtimehockey | August 5, 2010 1:59 PM | Report abuse

The player drafted immediately before him was Zach Parise and right after was Ryan Getlaf. Yowzer. Fehr is finally coming into his own, but imagine what either one of those guys could have done for us.

Posted by: oldtimehockey | August 5, 2010 1:59 PM

either one of those would have the caps in 'cap hell' right now

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 2:06 PM | Report abuse

@ ThePat

Look at the regular season records between the Habs and Caps/Wings and Blackhawks. The Habs were no give me win because the Caps (and Pens) had trouble against trapping teams all year. The Wings were able to contain the Hawks last season, unlike the Sharks who were crushed almost every time they met Chicago.

Goalies are apart of the team, but they cannot win the Cup alone. It takes a group effort. Put Vokun in net and this Caps squad still loses to Montreal.

Posted by: ablake70 | August 5, 2010 2:10 PM | Report abuse

@oldtimehockey...With either of those players we could be looking at serious cap issues. @cstanton..How can you be so adament about SDR value and so-so about Neuvy?

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 2:12 PM | Report abuse

@ablake70

You just effectively made my point....in the playoffs nothing is guaranteed. So to say Chicago wouldnt have beaten Detroit is stupid.

You do realize Chicago was 3-3 against Detroit in the regular season so not sure how they were contained. Two losses were in OT and two of Chicagos wins were 3-0 shutouts. Not sure exactly how that leads to Detroit beating them in a 7 game series.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 2:17 PM | Report abuse

I also saw that Mitchell will be deciding between the Caps and Sharks. He does live on the west coast now so that could enter into his decision.

An interesting tidbit is that since Mitchell was on the LTIR for over 100 days last year he can sign a contract with performance bonuses(I guess the CBA was vague and didn't state whether those 100 days cover only the regular season or playoffs also). So he likely will have a lower base salary. That could allow for more flexibility.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 2:19 PM | Report abuse

The player drafted immediately before him was Zach Parise and right after was Ryan Getlaf. Yowzer. Fehr is finally coming into his own, but imagine what either one of those guys could have done for us.
---------------

That's my point, said better than I have - I'm not a hater, but EF was drafted way too high for the production that's so far been had. IMO. And I also don't think the injuries should come as a surprise - if you don't have quick feet, guys don't miss checks, they hit you square. But enough about EF.

I think when you look at later rounds, the point upthread is inarguable - just look at DET - NL in 3rd, Zetta in 6th and Datsyuk in 7th [or vice versa but whatever]. Some teams consistently find gems in later rounds; the Caps aren't one. And waaaay too many 1sts / high picks are busts.

Now, maybe that's changing lately - Carlson at #27 was a steal, Kuz could well be also, and that 3rd-rounder from this year averaged a PPG for his rookie junior team. And no way STL lets a legit NHL heavyweight go for somebody they don't think will eventually cut it.

Posted by: Timbo_1 | August 5, 2010 2:20 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

The odds are that everybody is a bust after the 1st, so your chart is more the norm than evidence of a problem
---------------

ok, now we're finally getting into the meat of the discussion. The new question is, is McPhee lack of prowess after round 1 just the "norm", is he better than average, worse than average? Lets just look at 2003 thru 2007. A decent 5 yr sampling. Any more recent than that and the jury's still out.

Bergeron, Backes, Quincey, Bissonette, Stempniak, Dawes, Kukkonen, Crombeen, O'Sullivan, LaPierre, Jf Jacgues,C Fraser, Carcillo, O'Byrne, MacArthur, Carle, Kreps, Shea and Mike Weber, Eriksson, Klein, Fritsche, Stortini, Picard, Bitz, Hejda, Kukkonen, B Richardson, Dawes, JMitchell, Pavelski, Gervais, NThompson, D Miller, Bfyuglien, Brodziak, Enstrom, Paetsch (redraft), O'Brien, Tanner Glass, Halak!, Tarnasky, Bolland, Comeau, Bickell, Lisin, Booth, Grossman, V Oreskovich, Dubinsky, Callahan, Krejci, Goligoski, Edler, Prust, Sekera, Franzen, Boyd, Regin, Kennedy, Lundin, Versteeg, T Mitchell, Grabovski, Kaleta, Mike Brown, Pardy, Brouwer, Polak, Campoli, Yip, GStewart, Winnik, Streit, JHansen
Abdelkader, James Neal, Stoa, Boll, Bass, Repik, Moller, Galiardi, Simmonds, Latendresse, KRussell, Sobotka, Vlasic, PStasny, Franson, Fraser, Cumiskey
Stralman, Kennedy (ironically, our best pick we decide to deal away to Buffalo).
DHelm, Letang, Mcginn Kulemin, Nodl, Mathias, Lucic, Clutterbuck, Dorsett, Beleskey,Mcdonald, Stalberg, Peckham, Benn, Caputi, F McLaren, Gunnarson, Kalinski,
---------------

many strong role players on that list, and some kids with size and grit and skill for scoring lines, and some tough defensive dmen along with a few offensive ones.

Compare that to the Caps post-1st round draftees.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 2:28 PM | Report abuse

That's my point, said better than I have - I'm not a hater. Timbo_1

Oh but yes Timbo you are indeed a hater to many who post here because you are "questioning" one of the almighty GMGM's decisions. If you do that you are a "hater" and you are not a "reasonable" fan of the team. You just joined the club!

Posted by: PhilR | August 5, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1:

You stated/complained that GMGM does not draft well. You complained about the Stefan Della-Rouvre/D. J. King deal. You can't have it both ways bubba. So, what that shows me is you like to complain, are overly critical of GMGM, and are not objective.

Unlike you, and I suspect a lot of fans on this blog, I am objective and praise the good moves GMGM has made and blast him for the bad moves he's made. I'll give some examples:

Bad moves: 1) The hiring of Bruce Cassidy as an NHL coach. Real NHL coaches (Burns and Hitchcock) were available at the time. Instead GMGM goes with someone who draws up his systems on a napkin. GMGM should have been fired for that. 2) Trading away a good prospect (Osala) for a rental player (Corvo) that was damaged goods who arguably couldn't help the team even if healthy.

Good moves: 1) For my screen name sake I'll say that I thought that getting Fedorov when he did was an excellent move. Fedorov was the right kind of guy to get especially for a team with a couple of young, talented, impressionable Russians. 2) Acquiring Mike Knuble.

The bottom line is pretty much all GMs make good moves and bad moves. Fans tend to be more critical of their own teams than other teams. That's just the way it is. If you continue on your current course people will tune you out more and more. That's just the way it is.

Posted by: BetterOffWithFedorov | August 5, 2010 2:32 PM | Report abuse

@Timbo_1

Look at the collection of 1st round draft picks the Caps have had since 2002 and see if there are any teams in the NHL that can compare. I mentioned maybe Chicago and Pittsburgh, but that's it.

The have 4 top-6 forwards(Ovie, Backs, Semin, Fehr), at least 3 top-4 D-men(Green, Carlson, Schultz) and maybe a 4th top 4 d-man (Alzner, but wait and see) and a starting goalie (Varly). Throw in a 4th line center(Gordon). That isn't bad for a 6 year draft period. (too early to determine from '09 and '10 picks)

The Caps drafted:

Alexander Ovechkin(goes without saying),
Nicklas Backstrom(a top center),
Mike Green(two time Norris finalist),
Alexander Semin(one of the top goal scorers in the league),
Eric Fehr(20 some goal scorer),
Semyon Varlamov(good goalie who has played well in the playoffs, we will see how good he can become),
Jeff Schultz(solid 2nd pairing defenseman),
John Carlson(looks pretty good and possibly 1st pairing D-man),
Karl Alzner(TBD, will be a top 6 D-man this year and we will see how good he will become),
Boyd Gordon(eh, 4th line center).

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

i think we can clearly see that McPhee's drafting prowess post-round 1 is average or below-average or non-existent based on the above list.

where are our power forwards ? where are our gritty 3rd and 4th liners? where are our rugged defensive dmen? where are our lucic and backes types on the top lines? The very few exceptions that we did draft which fit one or more of the above categories have been dealt away. Tim Kennedy, Osala, Ruth, and SDR. Only SDR's value is still present via King (whom I expect the Caps to completely misuse but thats for another discussion).

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

@ThePat

Sorry, I should have said PROBABLY wouldn't be having this discussion. Better? You do realize that Detroit lost at least 6 key players to injury during the first half of last season? They didn't get back to full strength until after the Olympic break. In those games, they were back to terrorizing the league, including the 'Hawks.

My point still stands, Varly helped more than hurt because he covered the glaring holes in the Caps game. He let in a few goals, had a few off games, but name the goalie that hasn't. If the Caps need a superhuman goalie to win a Cup, it's time to trade Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, and Green.

Posted by: ablake70 | August 5, 2010 2:39 PM | Report abuse

No more draft talk and whether GMGM has been good or awful. We all get the point already.

Next....

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 2:41 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1:

You stated/complained that GMGM does not draft well. You complained about the Stefan Della-Rouvre/D. J. King deal. You can't have it both ways bubba. So, what that shows me is you like to complain, are overly critical of GMGM, and are not objective.
----------------------

so there's no shades of gray? If I say GM does not draft well, I can't give him credit for one late draft pick without it somehow sinking my own argument?

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 2:42 PM | Report abuse

@Timbo_1

Look at the collection of 1st round draft picks the Caps have had since 2002 and see if there are any teams in the NHL that can compare. I mentioned maybe Chicago and Pittsburgh, but that's it.
-------------------------------

lets tank for a few seasons, get some high draft picks and improve our draft position, make some easy picks and some decent picks, then lets blow the rest of the draft each yr. Bound to pick up a few fans who buy into this...

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 2:46 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

Talk about narrowing scopes to fit your arguement. First off, you dismiss 1st round choices...fine, argueable but fine. Then you talk about the later round choices and compare GMGM to the REST of the NHL teams. You kidding me? Of course if you list 31 other second rounders compared to GMGMs 1 or 2 you are going to see a bigger list of those that made an NHL impact.

Your arguement is vague and pointless unless you take all the GMs from 03-07 (your talent pool of choice above) and list their selections compared to GMGM. Then determine an unbiased (gonna be tough for you) rating system and score them. Until then, you are just making arbitrary vague statements....Well, GMGM took this guy, but the NHL got these other 31 guys. Durrr

I know you hate facts and such, but thats probably because a lot of your rants are based on opinions rather than "facts".

Dont get me wrong, GMGM aggrivates me beyond belief and I think he has his head up his a$$ most of the time. I am just saying your arguement is a lame one when its so generalized.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 2:50 PM | Report abuse

@nimrod and AZ Kirk, Oh no doubting that Parise and Getzlaf come with a huge cap issue. I'm just pointing out that while I still think Fehr will continue to develop, others from the same era have been really good.

Thre in lies the rub, though, doesn't it? Sure, you would love a team of 20 superstars but that's just not going to happen tin the cap era.

Posted by: oldtimehockey | August 5, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

Also, you would have to factor in draft order and such because some of those players from your list might not have been available. It's not like the Commish said, Washington picks first every round, and the rest of you follow.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

I will say BB is not a good NHL coach. I know he did better than Hanlon. Well hanlon was worse.

Posted by: pkme | August 5, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Also, you would have to factor in draft order and such because some of those players from your list might not have been available. It's not like the Commish said, Washington picks first every round, and the rest of you follow.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

i think you may have semin'd all over the ice one too many times because you may have expelled some logic along the way. I gave you a list of about 85-90 players over a random 5 yr sampling. How else do you expect me to show how many players were available post-1st round that were drafted by other teams? You can go do your own research as to which specific players were available when the Caps' turn to draft came around but I'd venture a guess and say they passed on most of those players.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

@Timbo_1...Okay, so Detroit got those players late in the draft, how did they do in the earlier rounds of those same drafts?

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

Talk about narrowing scopes to fit your arguement. First off, you dismiss 1st round choices...fine, argueable but fine.
--------------------

I didn't dismiss anything. If you read the entire thread you'll see that I started off defining the parameters of my argument. Primarily, that the Caps under McPhee don't draft well after the 1st round. So I'm not intentionally evading his 1st round record at all. My point is, he can't draft AFTER the 1st round, capische? Then when someone said that his draft record after the 1st round is the "norm", I provided a list of post-1st rounders drafted by other teams. What about this is confusing?

And when SGM (i still think that stands for superGM) brought McPhee's 1st round record into it, I said that judging a GM on his high picks isn't necessarily the best gauge of his talent as GM. I could sit here and make top 5 picks all day long. He's made some picks like I have given him credit for later in the 1st rounds. But making good top 5 picks doesn't impress me very much. The true worth of a GM is how he picks after that.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

The most painful offseason ever

I keep coming here hoping there will be a post about how someone mistakenly dropped a puck...

...and there was hockey.

sniffle

...hurts

HATE ALL Y'ALL! STUPID POSTS!


TIME FOR HAPPY HOUR...WOOOOO WHOOOOO!

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

@Timbo_1...Okay, so Detroit got those players late in the draft, how did they do in the earlier rounds of those same drafts?

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

since Detroit has been a better team than have the Caps over the last 20 yrs, I'm guessing their draft position hasn't been as favorable. Draft position matters a heckuva lot more in the early rounds than it does the later rounds. Pretty hard to argue that. Don't give McPhee a free pass because he ran his teams into the ground and ended up with good draft positioning because of that.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:06 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton...I would bet that alot of teams passed on those players before they were finally drafted. Mike Bossy was drafted around 27th. Looks like 26 others wer pretty lousy. You can't judge all selections made or not made because a team may have drafting for a specific need. You can't draft a 20 year old kid and get it right all the time.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:07 PM | Report abuse

and detroit also hasn't been a "seller" for quite a while. Which doesn't allow them to have many high picks like a team with a crappy record who is forced to sell off their players.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:08 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

Hurts to be wrong huh? Oh well. It's not my arguement, so there will be no research done by moi. Was just saying you throwing around useless and out of context datum to support your arguement is comical.

It would be like mocking Altanta's GM for drafting Boris Valabik instead of Ovechkin or Malkin. OMG...what a moron that GM was....fire him asap. Oh wait....he couldnt.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 3:10 PM | Report abuse

GMGM made two top 4 picks of consequence so far (Alner is still a TBD). Ovie was simple, fine.

Backstrom was picked 4th. Erik Johnson was the highest rated player in the draft and selected ahead of Backstrom(if it was so simple why did't the Blues draft Backstrom or Toews?). In addition, many teams and scouts had Kessel HIGHER rated than Backstrom. So going by ratings the Caps should've selected Kessel.

I'm not saying Backstrom was a steal or anything, but GMGM made the correct decision when making his selection(Backstrom over Kessel) that others questioned at the time.

ALL the other picks were outside of the top 10 (Semin, Fehr, Green, Carlson, Schultz, Varly).

From the 2002-2008 time period who has a collection of picks anywhere near that quality for 1st round selection outside of the top 10?

Please enlighten.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 3:11 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton...I would bet that alot of teams passed on those players before they were finally drafted.
-----

approx 90 players over a 5 yr sampling breaks out to about 16 or 17 players each yr. Those players were sprinkled thru from rounds 2 thru 7. So about half to a little more of the teams in the league seem to get it right at least. Are you content with a GM being average to mediocre with regards to drafting post-round 1?

he's the beneficiary of his team's own failings. Because his entire draft record is based on the 1st round which directly correlates to having a bad team (draft position, selling off players)

And he's still made questionable picks - Fehr, Gordon, Pokulok, Finley, AGus etc.

Bottom line is, he's not one of the better GMs in hockey. Most GMs with his overall record would've been fired a long time ago and some other GM would have benefited from taking over a team that finished low in the standings and therefore got better draft positioning in the top rounds. He was allowed to fail, then allowed to use his own failures to get some picks of the litter, still blew the rest of the draft, etc.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton...I am not giving GMGM a free 'anything'. I was merely asking timbo_1 how Detroit drafted in the first round the years they drafted Datsuk and Zetterberg. My only point was going to be that nothing is for certain in a draft.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:16 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1

Hurts to be wrong huh?
------------------

did that sound cool to you when you wrote it? you haven't proven it in any way except being sarcastic. So come up with a better effort next time.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:17 PM | Report abuse

please - Backstrom was the logical pick because WE HAD NO CENTERS!

How long did McPhee ignore the center position for? Which is he drafted Backstrom over Kessel because they were comparable talents and our need was greatest at center.

Now that his pick AGus is looking shaky, we went looking for another skilled center to fill out the top 2 lines in this past draft.

I would have been shocked if we'd taken Kessel. The need for centers in our system was well documented.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:21 PM | Report abuse

GMGM made two top 4 picks of consequence so far (Alner is still a TBD). Ovie was simple, fine.

Backstrom was picked 4th. Erik Johnson was the highest rated player in the draft and selected ahead of Backstrom(if it was so simple why did't the Blues draft Backstrom or Toews?). In addition, many teams and scouts had Kessel HIGHER rated than Backstrom. So going by ratings the Caps should've selected Kessel.

I'm not saying Backstrom was a steal or anything, but GMGM made the correct decision when making his selection(Backstrom over Kessel) that others questioned at the time.

ALL the other picks were outside of the top 10 (Semin, Fehr, Green, Carlson, Schultz, Varly).

From the 2002-2008 time period who has a collection of picks anywhere near that quality for 1st round selection outside of the top 10?

Please enlighten.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 3:11 PM

How do you know GMGM didn't plan to draft EJ? When he wasn't available, it was a no brainer between Kessel and Backstrom. The Caps needed a center for Ovi. What would have been more interesting is if Toews or Staal were still available. He probably would have picked Backstrom anyway because he's the better offensive player of the 3 and European.

Posted by: ablake70 | August 5, 2010 3:23 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton...I am not giving GMGM a free 'anything'. I was merely asking timbo_1 how Detroit drafted in the first round the years they drafted Datsuk and Zetterberg. My only point was going to be that nothing is for certain in a draft.
-------------

its like this - if McPhee had been putting together strong teams over the past 10 yrs, then he'd be picking later in the draft and also not selling his players for high picks. Therefore, in order to stay competitive he'd have to make very astute salient choices about who to select in the draft since he wouldn't be getting the picks of the litter.

That is the position Det has been in over the past decade and a half. Which is why McPhee's high picks will always look better than theirs.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:24 PM | Report abuse

And there you go, when someone makes you back your opinion without using generalizations, you result to deviating from the topic to go at them. It's your arguement. You are the one saying GMGM stinks at drafting. So PROVE your arguement. All I asked was state specific examples. See normally when you know you are right, you are armed with good evidence to back it...but in this case, not so much.

At this point, who cares about all the GMs out there, choose 3 from the same time period of GMGM and compare them individually with GMGM. I just want to see the usefull postings from you, not the ones most end up not liking you for.

My 2 cents.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 3:25 PM | Report abuse

ablake70...we will never know. I will keep Backy and be perfectly happy for it.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:26 PM | Report abuse

@ Timbo. The players you mentioned for Detroit were all taken in 1999 or before since and were not taken by their current GM,. Also that is as much of an issue with the scouting department as the GM. If the scouts don't find people who have that kind of talent that are going under the radar then the GM can't draft them.

Here are the players current playing in the NHL that the Wings drafted since 2000 and what round they were taken and what overall pick.

2000
Kronwall 1st 29th
Kopecky 2nd 38th

2001
None missing players like Tomas Plekanec (71st, 3rd) Craig Anderson (73rd, 3rd) Patrick Sharp (95th, 3rd) Christian Ehrhoff (106th, 4th) Kevin Bieksa (151st, 5th) Ryane Clowe (175th, 6th) Marek Zidilicky (176th, 6th) Jussi Jokinen (192nd, 6th) Brooks Laich (193rd, 6th) Cristobal Huet (214th, 7th), Brandon Bochenski (223, 7th), Marek Svatos (227th, 7th)

2002
Hudler 2nd 58th
Fleischmann 2nd 63rd
Filppula 3rd 95th
Derek Meech 7th 229th
Jonathan Ericsson 9th 291th

2003
Howard 2nd 64th (took so long to develop this was his first season in the NHL)
Kyle Quincey 4th 132nd

2004
Franzen 3rd 97th

2005
Abdelkader 2nd 42nd
Helm 5th 132nd

2006
Shawn Matthias 2nd 47th (74 career NHL games)

2007
None

2008
None

2009
None

So the last time Detroit drafted someone who played for them in the NHL was 2005 when two 4th liners were drafted. Of these players only Franzen, Howard,Filppila and Kronwall are major players with Detroit now and only Flash is a major player with another team. In the last 9 drafts only 13 players from Detroit have played more then 10 games in the NHL. The Caps have 14 who have had sustained NHL playing time since then. Yes the Caps have had more high picks but the draft is about getting good players. You don't get bonus wins for drafting someone later. Detroit also has had the ability to slowly develop many of their players which the Caps did not have the ability to do since they were rebuilding. In has been since 2005 since Detroit used one of their own draft picks other then as a part time injury replacement. That is part of the reason their team age is so high and why their
Cup window is closing very fast. They will have to overpay for free agents to replace their old players and will run into big cap issues.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 5, 2010 3:30 PM | Report abuse

He was allowed to fail, then allowed to use his own failures to get some picks of the litter, still blew the rest of the draft, etc.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:15 PM

"He was allowed to fail"
sounds like maybe Ted said - lets do it this way

"then allowed to use his own failures to get some picks of the litter"
if this was Ted's direction - then i don't think you should call this gmgm's failure

gmgm is certainly not a stellar gm, but you just hate him.
* he drafts the types of players you don't like
* he makes deadline deals you don't like
* his off season moves are ones you don't like
i'm starting to see a pattern

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 3:30 PM | Report abuse

so there's no shades of gray? If I say GM does not draft well, I can't give him credit for one late draft pick without it somehow sinking my own argument?

Posted by: cstanton1

You can easily qualify it by saying something like with the exception of Stefan Della-Rouvre or with the exception of a few players GMGM doesn't draft well past the first round. You seem to do a lot of typing. It's just a few extra characters, yet you chose not to type them. Often when people do things like that they don't want to acknowledge any credit or credibility.

Posted by: BetterOffWithFedorov | August 5, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

cstanton...I think you have missed the point about Detroit. The picks mentioned, Datsuk and Zetterberg were late round draft picks, (like 5th or 6th) not late first round picks. The question still is...Who did Detroit draft first those years?

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

the pattern is definitely there. But its his pattern, not mine. If he drafted the types of players I liked, and constructed a team a certain way, then my tune would change. I don't dislike him to dislike him. I dislike him because of the way he constructs teams and everything inbetween.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

to expound on icehammer's detroit draft post:

Detroit's drafting history: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html
Capitals drafting history:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008871.html

It is a misnomer that Detroit has "drafted very well" recently. Since 2002 (previous post mentioned by me as a baseline), the breakdown of players and games played is this:
Detroit...
82+ (1 season+): 3
164+ (2): 1
246+ (3): 4
328+ (4): 0

Washington:
82+ (1 season+): 0
164+ (2): 1
246+ (3): 5
328+ (4): 2

Posted by: FrankM73 | August 5, 2010 3:35 PM | Report abuse

It's your arguement. You are the one saying GMGM stinks at drafting. So PROVE your arguement.
--------

what the f do you think I've been doing with 10000 lines of text over the past yr? what pray tell me can i possibly do for you . Go ahead and lay it out for me. What aside from the stuff I've already posted would you like to see in black and white? And I'll try and accomodate. You say its not your argument but then you become a part of it when you say that the list of players I posted who were drafted after the 1st round isn't a good enough example of the point I'm trying to make. So how can I further clarify it for your benefit?

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:35 PM | Report abuse

Don't the Capitals have a scouting department as well? Why is everyone railing on GMGM? Granted, he announces the picks and probably has the final say, but there are other people at work here.

I'm not defending him at all, but spread the blame out to everyone.

Posted by: jwash4472 | August 5, 2010 3:36 PM | Report abuse

@ablake70

Yeah he may have selected Johnson. I was just using that as an example of why success in the top 5 isn't as simple as following who is ranked the highest.

And yes, the Caps need for a center was a significant reason they chose Backstrom. However, I resort back to the argument that some people were stating that selecting in the top 5 is easy because you select whoever is rated highest.

This was a case when GMGM overlooked the higher rated player (Kessel) and took a player based on judgments of his team's needs and organizational prospects along with the judgment of the player.

Hindsight is always 20/20 when saying how easy the pick was, but GMGM was the one who made it at the time.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 3:37 PM | Report abuse

You can easily qualify it by saying something like with the exception of Stefan Della-Rouvre or with the exception of a few players GMGM doesn't draft well past the first round
----------

considering I've been an overt fan of SDR's and numerous times have noted in the past that both SDR and Garrett Mitchell represent a recent new shift by McPhee (until this yr of course) where the CAps are finally going after quality grinders in the later rounds, I don't think I've intentionally avoided typing that into every post.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:38 PM | Report abuse

I think the Post should shut down the comment section for like a week unless we sign a player or make a trade. Hearing the same argument from all sides on GMGM is getting old. Everyone knows everyones opinions on the issue already. No more posting, keep your sanity.

Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

@icehammer97...thanks for that post. All I wanted to say was that no one is perfect. Stuff happens and some times draft picks quit.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

who's in charge of the scouts ? ted?

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

@icehammer97

Now thats how you back your side of the arguement. However, it would have been nice to see the Caps comparison for the same years, but alas, I am much too lazy to do my own browsing.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 3:40 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton- what does it matter who's in charge of the scouts?

My point is GMGM isn't drafting these players all by himself.There are other people involved, so blame them as well as GMGM.

Posted by: jwash4472 | August 5, 2010 3:45 PM | Report abuse

the draft is only a "crapshoot" for GMs who can't draft well past top rated players.

McPhee should look at his own record and trade every single pick he has past the 1st round to acquire players and add'l 1st round picks. Give the picks to teams who think they can actually use them and then maybe we'll get some quality in return. I'm being serious.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:45 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton1
Pretty sure I mentioned how you could...oh well, I tried.

@FrankM73
Again, another example of how to back your argument.

@ThePat
I think the Post should shut down the comment section for like a week unless we sign a player or make a trade.
Posted by: ThePat | August 5, 2010 3:39 PM

So what you are really saying is you want CI to shut down until the season starts. ZING (get it....no trades, no signings, cause GMGM wont do this....bah)

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 5, 2010 3:49 PM | Report abuse

@ sgm3

Kessel was rated higher, but the Caps had a greater need at center. With three highly touted centers in that draft, there was no way GMGM would pick Kessel over Backstrom (or Toews or Staal). If Backstrom was rated between 10-20 or if the Caps had the 2nd pick, the Backstrom pick would have been a bold move. As it is, Backstrom just fell into GMGM's lap.

I do agree that too much is being made of GMGMs draft picks. I have more of a problem with his free agents and development of young players than his draft picks.

Posted by: ablake70 | August 5, 2010 3:50 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton- what does it matter who's in charge of the scouts?

My point is GMGM isn't drafting these players all by himself.There are other people involved, so blame them as well as GMGM.

Posted by: jwash4472 | August 5, 2010 3:45 PM | Report abuse

you can't be serious. You do understand how the draft works, right? A lot of times the GM doesn't even see tape of the drafted players prior to him being drafted. McPhee himself has acknowledged that he has never seen tape of quite a few of his draft picks. The GM puts together the scouting dept. They then make recommendations to the senior scouts or director of player personnel, who then directly reports to the GM.
But it doesn't change the fact that at every level of sports, the GM is in charge of player acquisitions either directly or indirectly and if he doesn't like the job they're doing then he has to hire more competent people. For the most part also, the scouts are simply following thru on what their organization values in a player. And that does come down from McPhee, MacLellan, Mahoney, etc. If a scout knows that his GM is looking for highly skilled players and they don't have to provide a measure of grit, then thats how they go scouting their talent.

So to pass the blame around is a bit silly. The buck stops with McPhee. If his scouts suck, he needs to change them. It eventually will and should fall on his shoulders.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton...that is what scares me.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

giving McPhee a pass because his scouts may not be great is like saying a coach isn't responsible for his players scoring goals or a GM isn't responsible for how his coach leads a team, etc. GM is god. He directs everything, from playing style to personnel. If the scouts stink, and you don't blame McPhee for that, then you must expect the scouts to simply fire themselves and then replace themselves with more competent scouts. Because other than that, you'll never see any improvement.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton...that is what scares me.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

what? that ted may be in charge of the scouts?

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 3:56 PM | Report abuse

@cstanton...damn, my post fell in the wrong spot. I was talking about you being serious with GMGM and late draft picks. I however am not scared of GMGM getting fired if things don't work out for the Caps...soon.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 3:57 PM | Report abuse

i don't think ted fires GM anytime soon. I thought maybe with another postseason collapse it may happen but I don't think so. For ted to fire McPhee the Caps would probably have to go 1 round and out in 2 more consecutive yrs. One more yr won't cut it. A large part of Ted's comfort zone with McPhee is the same reason most of yous like him. He has provided an entertaining team, not blown the cap, and is the "talk of the town". Ted and George helped bring in many new fans and get the rest of the league to wake up and take notice of the Caps talent. That will be enough to keep GM's job safe for another 2 yrs at least.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Kovy hearing is done. A decision must be handed down by Monday.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 4:14 PM | Report abuse

Forsberg to Caps mid-season woudl be outstanding if he can hold up as a 2C ... http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/col100805.html

Posted by: flee001 | August 5, 2010 4:17 PM | Report abuse

Ted and George helped bring in many new fans and get the rest of the league to wake up and take notice of the Caps talent.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 5, 2010 4:02 PM

therein lies the difference between being a fan and owning/managing a sports franchise.

a good percentage of fans could give a rats *ss about the regular season - just bring me the cup

those that a responsible for providing a marketable product to those fans do have to care about the 82 regular season meaningless games.

i hope they win the cup on oct 8th

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 4:20 PM | Report abuse

Tim Kennedy, Osala, Ruth, and SDR. Only SDR's value is still present via King (whom I expect the Caps to completely misuse but thats for another discussion).

Posted by: cstanton1

Dude, you gotta give it a rest. If and when OO, Ruth and SDR actually make an NHL roster and contribute, please feel free to use them as examples of failed GMGM planning. Until then, they're nothing but ex-prospects and not worth gnashing teeth over. Just an opinion.

Posted by: Steve_R | August 5, 2010 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Here is a question and answer from a chat session with Blues hockey writer Jeremy Rutherford. Almost all questions were about the Blues(obviously), but a few were about the NHL in general.

This is good to just to get a feeling of how other, non-partisan, hockey people feel about the Caps. At another point in the chat he was raving about how talented the Caps top line was in a discussion about how the Blues really need 1st line scorers and not just 2nd and 3rd liners.

Anyways, here it is:


Steve: JR,
If you had to pick right now. Who are the five best teams in the NHL going into this upcoming season??

Also, what do you think is a realistic number of games for Halak to start next year?? Think he will make it to 65 starts (if healthy)?? Thanks
Jeremy Rutherford:
Off the top of my head ....

Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, San Jose (especially if they get Niemi) and Vancouver

Regarding Halak, I think I projected him for around 55-60 games next year.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 5:11 PM | Report abuse

@SeminAllOverTheIce: Here is a good list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Washington_Capitals_draft_picks but for a quick recap.

2000
Brian Sutherby 1st 26th
Matt Pettinger 2nd 43rd

2001
None

2002
Steve Eminger 1st 12th
Alex Semin 1st 13th
Boyd Gordon 1st 17th

2003
Eric Fehr 1st 18th

2004
Alex Ovechkin 1st 1st
Jeff Schultz 1st 27th
Mike Green 1st 29th
Chris Bourque 2nd 33rd
Sami Lepisto 3rd 66th

2004
None Although A. Gordon could this season or next

2005
Tim Kennedy 6th 181st

2006
Nick Backstrom 1st 4th
Semyon Varlamov 1st 23rd
Michal Neuvirth 2nd 34th

Also Oskar Osala (4th, 97th) who helped get us Corvo who no matter what you think of him was an NHL player and Mathieu Perreault (6th, 177th) who could very well be our #2 center this season.

2007
Karl Alzner 1st 5th

2008
John Carlson 1st 27th

Also got Gustafsson (1st, 21st) who could, if he stays healthy, be a full time second line center and Braden Holtby (4th, 93rd) who is our insurance policy incase one of the other two become Jim Carrey 2 or we decide to trade one to fill another hole.


So overall mainly first round pick but when so many of your first round picks make it to the NHL it does not leave as much roster space for other players which is why guys like Kennedy get traded is because they can be NHL players but we have enough young talent already. For many years to come the Caps have their top end scoring set with Ovechkin and Backstrom and most likely Green and soon to be top d-men in Alzner and Carlson and enough strong young goalies we are not putting all our eggs in one basket. Yes, the team will need some things over the next few years but our top talent is good and young. Detroit's top talent is all in their late 20s and early 30s and are already at or past their prime.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 5, 2010 6:01 PM | Report abuse

In short 11 guys on the current roster 1 (Eminger) traded for a pick that got us a pick (Carlson). One (Sutherby) traded for the pick that got us Huet who got us into the playoffs for the first time. One (Pettinger) traded for Matt Cooke who also helped us in that run to the playoffs. And one (Osala)who got us Corvo for the plaoffs last year. So good or bad that is 11 players still on the team plus another 4 that we got someone who was on or NHL team at one point in exhange for.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 5, 2010 6:10 PM | Report abuse

You want to talk about bad Caps drafting look at the time from 1994-1999. A time period that by now those players should have had full long careers. Yet in those 6 years the Caps only drafted 2 player show played over 100 NHL games Richard Zednik (1994, 10th, 249th) and Jan Bulis (1996, 2nd, 43rd). In that time the Caps had 6 first round picks that didn't play over 20 NHL games and several of those never made the NHL even for a game.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 5, 2010 6:15 PM | Report abuse

JEEBUS H. CRYS....ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

No matter what the title of the blog thread may be, some obsessive-compulsive buzzkills always keep circling back to same tired mantra of "GMGM = Fail".

Again and again and again and AGAIN.

It's getting really really old, really really fast. And the worst part of all is that, if and when these people mangage--no pun intended--to run GMGM (and BB, and all the players they don't like) out of town, or when the Caps win the Cup, or both...


NOTHING WILL CHANGE---THEY'LL JUST FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT!!!


Which again begs the question: WHY ARE THEY HERE? Is it because they are in love with Schädenfreude's prettier cousin Ihr eigenes Elend?

And don't anyone dare say I'm "drinking the KoolAid"--Yes, there are roster moves that GMGM has made or (failed to make) which I didn't like. And yes, I have been disappointed in the Caps' recent playoff outcomes.

The difference is that:

1) I am not prepard to throw anyone still in the Caps organization under the bus just yet,

2) The question of McPhee's performance as GM is open to debate, not relentless bashing;

3) I don't constantly belittle those who disagree with me, and

4) I acknowledge that none of us on this blog are really in a position to to pass judgement, simply because we are not--and can never be--in possession of all of the facts surrounding any given roster move.

Last season is history...
Next season is a mystery...
Let's wait and see...

'nuff said!

Now can we please talk about something else instead of bludgeoning these Eohippus fossils any further?

Posted by: Rhino40 | August 5, 2010 6:23 PM | Report abuse

Hey Rhino40

Nice post. However GMGM still has added nothing to this team this offseason to help get over the hump. No matter how great you think he is, he sees his team blow playoff leads of two games (twice), and does nothing to rectify.

He still sucks.

Posted by: underpants2 | August 5, 2010 6:31 PM | Report abuse

@Rhino

That was pretty well said. Good post.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 6:32 PM | Report abuse

AMEN RHINO!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't have said it better and I have actually tried to say it that well before and failed. I'll go ahead and name a few, Cstanton, Joke and U2 if we win the Cup this yr all 3 of you will have something negative to say about it. You're absolutely right Rhino, if it's not "x" they're complaining about it'll by "y".

I'm like most others here in that GMGM has done some great things and has done some more conservative things whereas I wish he were more aggressive but the bottom line is we have a very good team and we will contend this yr & for many more after that.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 5, 2010 6:53 PM | Report abuse

Rhino- my comment previously was that people around here will complain about the parade route after we win the Cup. It'll go down the wrong road I'm sure!

Some people just look at life and everything in their life as negative. They can't see positive in anything so they come on to some anonymous blog and just spew all their negativity around and never have to put their name to it. It's todays world.

Only 2 more months until the season starts! So there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train!

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 5, 2010 6:58 PM | Report abuse

Enough with McPhee bashing, I know he's the GM and has the final decision, but take a look at Ross Mahoney's draft record while he was in Vancouver...Just a thought.

Posted by: topshelf | August 5, 2010 7:06 PM | Report abuse

He still sucks.

Posted by: underpants2 | August 5, 2010 6:31 PM

@underpants2:

I tried to be a gentleman about this and yet you continue to act as though George McPhee:

A) P1$$3d in your cereal,
B) Took your lunch money,
C) Prongered your Prom date
D) All of the above.

...ergo, you asked for this:

'underpants2', eh? Interesting handle.


So, tell me: when was the last time you washed yours?

Posted by: Rhino40 | August 5, 2010 7:15 PM | Report abuse

I love all the idiots on this comment string who think they know more about drafting talent than Ross Mahoney (Caps chief amateur scout), GMGM, and all their scouting assistants. How many of you geniuses have driven all over Saskatchewan to view the youth hockey talent pool? How many of you rocket surgeons have drafted a John Carlson at 27th in the draft?
I thought so.
Idiots.

Posted by: pcalver1 | August 5, 2010 7:17 PM | Report abuse

Well said Rhino

Posted by: Steve_R | August 5, 2010 7:25 PM | Report abuse

@pcalver1:

Agreed 100%

"rocket surgeons...."...I love it!

So I guess this isn't brain science, eh?

Düüüde...I kid you! LWYNAY (Laughing With You, Not At You)

LMAO!

Posted by: Rhino40 | August 5, 2010 7:32 PM | Report abuse

WOW...

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 5, 2010 7:37 PM | Report abuse

Pcalver - just ask Cstanton, he stated in an early post that "out thinking the Caps brain trust isn't that hard".

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 5, 2010 7:48 PM | Report abuse

Rhino,

KDWYD!

I can dig it.

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 5, 2010 7:53 PM | Report abuse

Most players drafted don't make it to the NHL when drafted by any team. There are only so many spots and only the best of the best make it with the exception of some for salary cap concerns. I try hard to remain a loyal Caps fan, which I am. The August Whiner Wing of the Caps fandom is beyond ridiculous though. This stating of all these later round picks being busts is true of all teams generally. Even Detroit, just maybe less so.

Posted by: lornemyoung | August 5, 2010 7:55 PM | Report abuse

No Lorne you're absolutely right. Hockey is the 1 sport that drafts players at the youngest age. Who the heck knows how these kids are going to develope? The NFL for crying out loud can't draft anybody until 3yrs AFTER they've graduated HS!

It's a crap shoot and you're absolutely right in that most teams 2nd round picks and later don't amount to much.

But lets not be rational and logical, it's August you know.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 5, 2010 8:34 PM | Report abuse

Rhino, that was an awesome post. I just wish it would make a difference with some of the people who post on this blog.

Posted by: dccitizen1 | August 5, 2010 8:49 PM | Report abuse

@Rhino

It's ok, I can take it. A lot of us have been fans for a long time. We have seen this movie before, it's always the same.

1. We have a better team going into the playoffs, we lose
2. We have two game series leads, we lose
3. We have game 7 at home, we lose (Most of us have been to at least one or two)

This year, I thought it was different, but in fact, it never is. The hope was McPhee would see that we were just a few guys short, but he would add and subtract this summer.

He has subtracted, not nearly enough, he has added, nothing of significance.

At what point is McPhee going to be GMing like his job depends on it? It's funny, as a player, he was extremely aggressive. Now, as a GM, he's way too passive.

Where are the players that we NEED TO GET US THE CUP?
- Sloan/Eskine (God I hope not)
- MJ AND MP (Asking a lot from two rookies)
- Flash (Must be joking)

Posted by: underpants2 | August 5, 2010 9:00 PM | Report abuse

And one last thing. If any of my other posts have been offensive, I apologize.

Some of us have a different point of view. When mine differs for any of yours, I will try and do a better job in not ahole.


Posted by: underpants2 | August 5, 2010 9:03 PM | Report abuse

Some of us have a different point of view. When mine differs for any of yours, I will try and do a better job in not ahole.


Posted by: underpants2

I meant to say "not being an ahole"


Posted by: underpants2 | August 5, 2010 9:05 PM | Report abuse

Two weeks ago I posted that we were playing "smear the queer" and it was sgm getting piled upon and it was for him to "let go of the football."

At this point, cstanton, it is for you to give up the football.

I must admit, icehammer puts up a good argument.

Bottom line: 30 GMs in hockey. McPhee is probably between 10-15 in performance. He's definitely gotten better the last few years.

But for the love of God can he get us a #1D man and a #2C?

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 5, 2010 9:09 PM | Report abuse

And one last thing. If any of my other posts have been offensive, I apologize.

Some of us have a different point of view. When mine differs for any of yours, I will try and do a better job in not ahole.

Posted by: underpants2 | August 5, 2010 9:03 PM

up2:
i'm pretty sure every caps fan is frustrated, i know i am.
type a: sees everything (well almost everything) that is wrong and provides their opinion - which appears to others as spewing venom. referred to as 'haters'
type b: whats to see what is good/working now. these (me) are called kool-aid drinkers.

for the most part it is not what is being said - but how it is presented.

when you have an opinion, you should post it, that is what this forum is for

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

U2 - I can appreciate that and I have also been a fan for a very long time. I have ZERO problem with GMGM and BB getting their fair share of critisizm. I just have a problem with everything they do is so wrong and so ignorant and so foolish. Some of it is just over the top. I mean if you come on to this blog and have posted over 100 times and have said something positive less than 2 times, then you have problems that the Caps winning the Cup will never solve for you.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 5, 2010 10:32 PM | Report abuse

Not to mention when you sit on this blog ALL DAY LONG and respond to almost each and every post with your banter it's a bit overwhelming! Dr Phil might do Cstanton some good. I doubt he'd help Joek as he doesn't believe he has a problem yet! LMAO!

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 5, 2010 10:34 PM | Report abuse

Tom - I'm with ya buddy. Can we end the W Mitchell mystery and just sign him please?

Regardless we'll be OK for the regular season so if it means we sit tight til later in the season to make a bigger acquisition I'm ok with that.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 5, 2010 10:38 PM | Report abuse

Here's an interesting article about the arbitration process(normal contract arbitration, not the Kovy thing) and what happened in the Clarke McArthur and Tim Kennedy arbitrations.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/nhl-arbitration-in-crisis/article1663772/

I am still amazed that the Sabres would rather pay $333,333 to NOT have Tim Kennedy on their team than pay $1M to have him on.

Mind you, they will have to pay a replacement at least $500k to replace him too.

Then you add in that they were only off by $50,000 in negotiations (Sabres at $800,000 and Kennedy at $850,000).

I wonder if this was to set a precedent for later contract with the Sabres(not wanting a $1M precedent for that type of player) or if they knew something about him or if something bad came to light around arbitration time. It's just odd.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 5, 2010 11:20 PM | Report abuse

@pcalver1

You're full of it. There are plenty of guys on this site who've played enough hockey to know that GMGM drafts wimps, idiots, and skill-less players.Some of us actually played with guys like J.R. and Halpern, and damn well know what kind of drive and dedication it takes to make it in the league. If you can't see the difference between Mike Green and Toews attitude wise, you shouldn't be an NHL GM.
I'm sick of hearing from the Caps brass that Mike Green is young (24!!). Toews is 21. Green's not young, He's an idiot.(Another McPhee mistake)
Look at Guys like Shultz, Fehr, Steckel, Flush, Green. Do any of them have the heart of a champion? No! You just need to see them skate in a game for several minutes. Its obvious. This guy is a lawyer, and WAS a tough player. cstanton1 is right. He's a bad GM. The early exit will force Ted to dump this guy. He belongs over at GW teaching tort.

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 6, 2010 12:14 AM | Report abuse

@tomsocial1

McPhee is near the bottom. Look at his play off record. He built two teams with different strategies over ten years that couldn't compete in the playoffs. McPhee's teams can't even get out of the first round !!! It took a Herculian effort to get past a Ranger team that couldn't score against some of the better Reston Raider mite teams. David Poile's true grit guys made it to the finals while GM was GM. Then George was too important to even talk to Ollie at the end of his career. Ollie took us to the finals George ! Dump GMGM

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 6, 2010 12:27 AM | Report abuse

Off season additions and subtractions are vastly overrated. Look at the 2008 offseason. Detroit had just beat Pittsburgh in 6. They added Hossa and lost Hasek and Drake. Neither big parts of the team infact Hasek got yanked in the first round. Pittsburgh lost Hossa and their backup goalie. They struggled early the next year fired their coach and went on to beat Detroit in 7 IN DETROIT after they were UP 2-0. The point is Detroit looked like they had improved and Pittsburgh had lost their best winger and yet Pittsburgh turned out to beat Detroit that season.

You can say what you want about off season player movement but a lot of the time teams who might have looked good in the offseason end up doing bad and vice versa.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 6, 2010 12:40 AM | Report abuse

A short information on another former prospect: Matt Pettinger.

He will play for my hometown team, the Kölner Haie (Cologne Sharks):
http://www.ksta.de/html/artikel/1281013905309.shtml

So I have the chance to see one (former) Caps playing ;-)

Posted by: FCKoeln1 | August 6, 2010 5:31 AM | Report abuse

@FCKoeln1: Is there an English language version of that article?

Posted by: dccitizen1 | August 6, 2010 8:20 AM | Report abuse

Wow, this place turned into a war zone yesterday! The off-season is getting to everyone, can we please just drop the %$#@ puck!

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 8:26 AM | Report abuse

Ok, we'll miss Tarik, he was awesome...but let's see Katie's face and byline up there at the top.

C'mon WP online staff, get with it, do your job.

Posted by: soloman5000 | August 6, 2010 8:39 AM | Report abuse

@cstanton

You hate GMGM, we get it and you have a right to your opinion. However, please don't try to use circumstantial evidence to present your opinion as fact when by most accounts he is well respected by his bosses and peers. Remember, he is a hockey professional who has been involved in the sport for almost his whole life while you are a depressed moron with a keyboard.

Posted by: ds_kelly | August 6, 2010 8:50 AM | Report abuse

@ds_kelly,

That is not entirely fair, a lot of the critical comments about GMGM that Cstanton makes are very valid points but the presentation he chooses grates folks the wrong way. I personally agree with him on many of his points, IMO GM has not done a good job in the draft outside of the 1st round and his lack of FA signings/trades (especially this off season when the cap space is there and the wondow is wide open to make a run at the cup) is inexcusable.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 9:14 AM | Report abuse

type a: sees everything (well almost everything) that is wrong and provides their opinion - which appears to others as spewing venom. referred to as 'haters'
type b: whats to see what is good/working now. these (me) are called kool-aid drinkers.

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 5, 2010 9:22 PM

But what if you're a hater of drinking kool-aid...what does that make me???

Who am I??? (Zoolander face)

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 6, 2010 9:22 AM | Report abuse

Cstanton, PhillR, Joek:

I am sorry...I don't have the names in front of me and am sick, but just look at how many Hershey playes get called up...and how many more would if the Caps weren't so good! Everyone who is not a "fan" of this team thinks GMGM is a great GM...

I understand people who think we needed to draft more D men, but GMGM system is to simply draft the best players available and trade if you need something specific...if it is so wrong, then why do we have so many Calder Cups? I happen to agree withGM that u draft the best availabl b/c then Hershey becomes almost a checking account that is easy to draw from when we need a new "toy". Just b/c GMGM doesn't do it how u would doesn't make it dumb or even wrong...and yes I KNOW we havn't won a cup yet and mistakes have been made, and there are gaps that need filling...but GMGM and the Caps are a better than average team and I doubt blowing up the way we play and do things will bring us a Cup quicker than learning from the last 2 seasons and plugging in the few holes we have.

Posted by: capscoach | August 6, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Again I say, since the regular season is practice for the playoffs for us, why not "C" if we can fill the spot from within?

http://jumpingtheglass.blogspot.com/2010/08/taking-stance.html

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 6, 2010 9:34 AM | Report abuse

@Hunterforcoach

I get not liking Green (heck I don't!) but he HAS been nominated for Norriss 2x now...he doesn't suck...if we had 1 or 2 good shut down D men everyone would love him...he is NOT a shut down guy and you have to evaluate him for what he is.

And yes his playoff performance is a problem I am completely aware of...but BB overplays him in the regular season. I am hoping that a shut down D man plus Carlson and Alzner will allow Green to keep his regular season minutes to 20 or less. AO and Green may be immature A-holes, but they are awesome players.

Posted by: capscoach | August 6, 2010 9:40 AM | Report abuse

@icehammer--great posts. Factual and objective. Thanks.

@rhino--excellent. You put a temporary halt to the unrelenting and mindless negativity on this thread--briefly at least. cstanton disappeared yet hunterforce emerged.

@cstanton--you have no understanding of gray in your arguments. If a draft choice reflects well on McPhee then it was a no brainer of a selection. If poor then evidence McPhee has failed once again.

And for the love of the hockey gods would everyone stop with the haters vs koolaid drinking charges against anyone who disagrees with their argument. Posters here fall in the gray area.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 6, 2010 9:41 AM | Report abuse

@capscoach,

The thing is he isn't using that checking account to get the "toys" we need, that is my entire point! I'm not syaing that he is the worst GM in the league but I would say he is middle of the road and when it comes to pulling the trigger he seems to be gun shy.

@wtf_e_fehr

I am sort of with you on this one but thinking back to last years trade deadline and how the team never gelled from that point forward is a huge concern for me if the kids we have don't pan out. Dmen especially need time to gel with their partners and a 2C really must know where his wingers are going to be. Chemistry takes time and, as we learned last year, sometimes it won't happen in a short period.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 9:45 AM | Report abuse

@PhillR

I agree he can be gun shy on ocassion, but my hope is after the Kovy deal, more will happen...I think teams are kinda stuck until that happens.

Question...if we sign Mitchell and he then gets hurt...was it a bad move?

Posted by: capscoach | August 6, 2010 9:57 AM | Report abuse

@wtf_e_fehr

I am sort of with you on this one but thinking back to last years trade deadline and how the team never gelled from that point forward is a huge concern for me if the kids we have don't pan out. Dmen especially need time to gel with their partners and a 2C really must know where his wingers are going to be. Chemistry takes time and, as we learned last year, sometimes it won't happen in a short period.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 9:45 AM |


I think its a gamble any way you slice it.

Bring in a new guy, who knows if he will be the solution? Some thought we should have brought somebody in already this offseason, imagine if we shelled out the capspace and the guy could not cut it.

Also, a move could be made prior to the deadline. The one thing I think we have with this approach is options. Good ones if you ask me.

This is another decision for which GMGM is getting paid the big bucks, and he will be under a high powered microscope all season.

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 6, 2010 10:04 AM | Report abuse

Sorry guys, but I think GMGM is here forever. Leonsis is now occupied with the Wiz, which was his real interest any way. Patrick and GMGM are running the show. Do you really think Patrick will get rid of his bosom buddy? Especially while the team is doing well at the gate? It will take years for people to realize that this team just doesn't have what it takes to win a Cup and lose interest.

Posted by: poguesmahone | August 6, 2010 10:07 AM | Report abuse

Because W Mitchell missed more than 100 days last year his contract can be incentivized...which means low salary with big bonuses for games played etc. - Protects against a "bad signing" if he gets hurt (by the way I read this on another site so just spreading the message)

Posted by: jeets | August 6, 2010 10:14 AM | Report abuse

What jeets said as far as Mitchell, if you can get him to sign a contract with a low cap hit but has bonus incentives built in for performance then it is a win even if he gets hurt again.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 10:18 AM | Report abuse

@wtf_e_feht,

You may very well be right but I still think they need to deal Flash and a prospect or two and get that 2C that is needed sooner rather than later. Then sign W Mitchell and stand pat until the trade deadline and add a piece or two as needed at that time.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 10:23 AM | Report abuse

@ dccitizen1:

Unfortunately, there is no English translation.

However, in short:
- The GM of the team speaks very high of Matt ...
- He will play an important role on the team ...
- They hope, Matt can put them over the hump and into the playoffs ...

Posted by: FCKoeln1 | August 6, 2010 10:25 AM | Report abuse

I don't comment much but I would like to say the following:

I understand the frustration, but to say XYZ has happened the last 3 yrs, then XYZ will happen this year is flawed.

To pass judgement on this upcoming year TODAY is silly. The roster hasn't been completed, training camp hasn't concluded and the season hasn't started. And we haven't reached the trade deadline yet.

I'm not drinking the koolaid, I'm just certain I don't know what the future holds for this team.

To sling insults back and forth on opinions is, in my mind, a waste of time.

The nay-sayers have valid opinions. The Koolaid drinkers have valid opinions. and we're all armchair coaches, GMs and players. Nothing more.

"Enjoy the sport of hockey" is my mantra and I think the Caps have a good team that has a chance to compete...

Posted by: jeets | August 6, 2010 10:34 AM | Report abuse

@Hunterforcoach

I don't think playing midget with Halpern makes anyone an expert. I'm a beer leaguer who is pretty much impressed with anyone better than me. When did you play with Green to determine that a 2X Norris nominee is a total waste of a roster spot? D-men don't mature as fast as forwards.

Posted by: brasidas422 | August 6, 2010 10:39 AM | Report abuse

@brasidas422

One day on XBox Live playing NHL2010...duh.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 6, 2010 10:47 AM | Report abuse

How can anyone say that "toys" weren't used from the minor league club? During the 2008-09 season we had injuries on defense and the holes were filled with Helmer, Collin, and Alzner (played many more NHL games during the 2008-09 season). That is a perfect example of using your depth or toys.

Posted by: fanohock1 | August 6, 2010 10:55 AM | Report abuse

@fanohock1,

Try reading my post before you start your typical bs rants. I said that the "toys" were not being used to ACQUIRE pieces we need on the big club NOT that they weren't being used as call-ups. Now go crawl back under you bridge, you left it unprotected.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

I think everyone here will agree that the Caps need a #2 center. No arguments? Ok, Mike Green is NOT a shutdown defenseman. He is a powerplay quarterback. To expect him to be anything else is futile. With the current roster of defensemen it is pretty clear that another body is necessary. A physical type of d-man would be nice, but having ONLY one such d-man will not make alot of difference. The whole team needs to pick up that mind set. Only then will the Caps get the big prize. imo.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 6, 2010 11:22 AM | Report abuse

@fanohock1

I think you misunderstood...I used the term "toys" to refer to players needed to fill holes...ex)knuble,Chimera,Huet...the idea being that by simply drafting the best players, we create a surplus of valuable prospects in Hershey to serve as good trade bait to get what we need later...I refered to Hershey as our booming checking account which allows to make withdrawls for the "toys" we need.

Posted by: capscoach | August 6, 2010 11:25 AM | Report abuse

PhilR: Not sure how it could be classified as a rant, didn't call anyone names and provided facts. Anyhow...toys recently used from the system but not liked:

Osala for Corvo
SDR for King
Ruth for Fedorov

Posted by: fanohock1 | August 6, 2010 11:47 AM | Report abuse

Who uses checks anymore? Silly analogy :P

jk

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 6, 2010 11:48 AM | Report abuse

PhilR: Screw you too. If you have a problem with me I attend about 30 games a year and sit in section 430. Instead of sitting on the other side of a computer launching insults plan on talking to me at the game. Tired of computer geeks acting like tough guys.

Posted by: fanohock1 | August 6, 2010 11:49 AM | Report abuse

@fanohock1,

You are the one who comes on here and starts in on people every time you post. You may say you didn't attack anyone but there were only two individuals talking about "toys" and I have been the target of your rants in the past.

As far as meeting you at a game.....wow, are you 13 and have to settle you battles violently? No thanks, I am a bit more mature than that.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 11:57 AM | Report abuse

PLAYGROUND AT RECESS BI$#HES....Two men enter...one man leave....

And for the record....Im the toughest cat in 430, lets get that right. :)

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 6, 2010 12:04 PM | Report abuse

thunderdome?

is it really that serious men?

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 6, 2010 12:07 PM | Report abuse

And for arguments sake...wouldn't it be safe to assume that someone that is attributed the title of “computer geek”, most likely blog? And this being a blog, anyone who posts on here regularly could then too by definition be said "computer geek"?

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 6, 2010 12:11 PM | Report abuse

It is easy to see why so many folks are leaving this blog and heading to Japers'

Posted by: Redwolf1 | August 6, 2010 12:18 PM | Report abuse

"its gonna be a real looooooong summer in here"

I concur. I used to like reading the comments section. Since the end of the season, it's just been some people trying to speak reasonably, and cstanton and his minions mucking things up with irrational hatred for a team they're supposed to love. Oh well. Football's coming soon, and hockey's not far behind.

Posted by: TheDoubleAlex | August 6, 2010 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Redwolf nailed it...
I'd re-post my diatribe but its useless..

Good luck Katie

Posted by: jeets | August 6, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Hey, great post, Rhino (the first one, the big one, that is). That made this thread worth reading.

Posted by: TheDoubleAlex | August 6, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

Drafting in Hockey has always been a "CrapShoot" after the blue-chip prospects. Every year there are 10 to 12 excellent prospects, then what your doing is drafting KIDS with some skills. When you talk about drafting kids in later rounds, you never no how they will develop physically, and mentally and if they continue to develop there skills. If not like your drafting college football or college basketball players who have had time to completely develop.

Posted by: Capsfannmiss | August 6, 2010 12:47 PM | Report abuse

cstanton is the boogeyman

i aint scared of no cstanton

im stayin...right...HERE!

GMGM took cstanton's lunch money when they were younger, did you know that?

He aint so tuff!

Posted by: wtf_e_fehr | August 6, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

PhilR: Take a look at how many entries I have had recently, not many. I didn't even recognize your login, so not sure how I start in on you every time. I am a homer, kool-aid drinker, and wear Caps colored glasses so I typically lock horns with cstanton1. To be honest, I'm not a violent person, just tired of comments like:

"Try reading my post before you start your typical bs rants. I said that the "toys" were not being used to ACQUIRE pieces we need on the big club NOT that they weren't being used as call-ups. Now go crawl back under you bridge, you left it unprotected."

Those are the type of comments, when made in person, incite violence. When sent here, are meant to tick people off without having to deal with it. To launch unnecessary comments with internet cover is pathetic.

The person that used the term "toys", was capscoach, and he or she didn't come out with an insulting post in response.

Now, I did provide a short list of examples of using young players from the system that people that just will not give GMGM a break at all have complained about even though none of the players traded have proven anything yet. The list was:

Osala for Corvo
SDR for King
Ruth for Fedorov

Yup, I know Corvo was a mess, the jury King trade is still out, and Federov, even though he was at the end of his career, was extremely helpful during his time here.

All three of those players may very well have decent NHL careers. However, some of the same people that state we need to trade assets for players to help the team now dislike the moves. Can't trade prospects for anything worthwhile if they're not considered propects by other teams, right.

Posted by: fanohock1 | August 6, 2010 12:57 PM | Report abuse

@fanohcok1,

If it was not an intentional tirade against me then I apologize but you have taken jabs at me before so I guess it just rubbed me the wrong way.

Two of the three transactions you site I have absolutely no issue with.....the Corvo one went HORRIBLY wrong though. Feds was an important player in Semin's development even though mentally I think he still has a very long way to go. And SDR for King I am actually neutral as we really do not know what we get in King. If he can step in and play 40-60 games as a contributing and not just fighting 4th liner then it is a success in my opinion.

Everyone knows I am not a GMGM fan, I just don't think he has made enough moves to get this team over the hump. Of course BB not adjusting his system in certain circumstances has hurt the team as well.....

Once again, if I took you post the wrong way and went on the offensive half-cocked, I apologize.

Posted by: PhilR | August 6, 2010 1:14 PM | Report abuse

PhilR: No worries, I apologize as well.

I wasn't happy with last year's trade deadline deals either because IMO it didn't make the Caps a better team. I guess it added a couple of players with experience, but that was the only upside I saw. The strange thing is, hockey experts always grade the trade deadline and give an up and down arrow. The Caps actually got an "A", and an up arrow, and their moves supposedly made them even bigger favorites to do damage in the playoffs last year. Now, we all know how that went. Was that directly Corvo's or Walker's fault, not really, but I was still hoping for much more at the deadline last season. Deals don't always pan out and as fans we have to accept that. I have no proof that GMGM was going after another player (Volchenkov at the deadline was one that I believe a lot of Caps fans hoped for) but if something fell through GMGM would never throw a fellow GM under the bus for pulling the rug out from under a deal.

Posted by: fanohock1 | August 6, 2010 1:26 PM | Report abuse

@underpants2:

OK...truce then.

FWIW, please consider this: After the Game 6 loss to the Habs, GMGM was observed stomping down the concourse, growling "Another #$^&@%&** Game Seven!", or something to that affect.

From this tiny snippet, however, we can draw some concrete conclusions:

1) GMGM is as frustrated and angry as any of us about these outcomes, if not more so.
2) GMGM is fully aware that something has to be done to rectify matters.
3) What he--or any GM, for that matter--can do about it is subject to many possible constraints. Some of these are public knowledge (e.g., salary cap, player availability, etc.), while others are not.
4) Whether or not GMGM's moves for the coming season are "correct", remains to be seen.

And that has been the thrust of my argument all along: Some of the moves have been good. Others not so much. Both can be supported or refuted by numbers.

Just keep in mind that 30 teams all want to win the Cup. Of these, only 16 teams qualify for a chance at it, and of those only 1 will triumph. Should all of the other 15 teams in the playoffs be regarded as abject failures? I don't think so. FTR, I want the Caps to win the Cup as much as anyone. And I was deeply disappointed by their falling to a team everyone expected them to beat. That said, I simply cannot--in fact, I will not--call the entire season a bust solely on that basis.

The fact is, we watch sports because of how it makes us feel...and the 2009-2010 Caps gave me a lot of good feelings because, throughout the regular season, they won more often than not.

Bottom line, the OUTCOME is what sucks, not GMGM, not BB, not the players. And I remain hopeful that the situation can change. #^#*$ happens sometimes, and there isn't always a person that can be held responsible. For example: would you blame Bob Marbourg (WTOP) for I-66 being backed up? I should hope not.

Posted by: Rhino40 | August 6, 2010 1:38 PM | Report abuse

Calling the Corvo trade as horribly wrong might be overstating a little bit.

Corvo was a serviceable 3rd pairing defenseman in the playoffs(his play was actually ok in the playoffs, but he was only a 3rd pairing defenseman). So he was pretty inconsequential.

They gave up Pothier(now in Europe and at best was Corvo's equal last year), Osala, and next year's 2nd rounder. I'm actually more upset about getting rid of the 2nd rounder than Osala because that could have been something to use at this year's deadline.

Osala is a mid-level aging prospect(almost 23) who was never going to get a chance in Washington due to the depth the Caps have on the wing.

If he ends up becoming something, then the deal can delegated as horrible.

But if not, the deal pretty much ends up as just inconsequential with a slight loss, nothing really gained and nothing really lost(except 2nd round pick for trading purposes).

Posted by: sgm3 | August 6, 2010 2:11 PM | Report abuse

Here is a good article about perspective that some of the angry fans on here should read.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jeff_pearlman/08/06/angry.fans/index.html?eref=sihp

Posted by: sgm3 | August 6, 2010 2:16 PM | Report abuse

Rhino...you are the MAN!!!

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 6, 2010 2:21 PM | Report abuse

"...and a peace settled upon the land! Feuds were settled, neighbors once again hugged neighbors, and a fatted penguin was slaughtered 10-0 in honor of the peace upon CI blog-land!"

*blink, blink* :-|

Posted by: FrankM73 | August 6, 2010 2:34 PM | Report abuse

@sgm: regarding article...

"With rare exception, the notes are anonymous. And grammatically inept. And some sort of cry for help/loneliness/meaning."

the above is just priceless!

Posted by: FrankM73 | August 6, 2010 2:39 PM | Report abuse

Calling the Corvo trade as horribly wrong might be overstating a little bit.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 6, 2010 2:11 PM

i never thought corvo was picked up to 'improve' the team. i saw him as insurance (depth) in case green got banged up and was ineffective as he was the year before.

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 6, 2010 2:44 PM | Report abuse

Looks like Madden is going Wild... sorry for the bad pun. I thought we could have really used a defensive forward who knows how to win the big games on our team.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 6, 2010 2:54 PM | Report abuse

@icehammer97

I agree. Especially at that price, a cap hit of $1.25M.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 6, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

Bottom line, the OUTCOME is what sucks, not GMGM, not BB, not the players. And I remain hopeful that the situation can change. #^#*$ happens sometimes, and there isn't always a person that can be held responsible. For example: would you blame Bob Marbourg (WTOP) for I-66 being backed up? I should hope not.

Posted by: Rhino40


My problem with this is that the OUTCOME is the direct result of GMGM, BB and the players. What we have is not the right mix. McPhee's job is to find the right mix. It doesn't appear he is looking.

@SGM3

IMO, the Corvo deal was dreadfull. We needed a stay at hutdown dman, he brought in Corvo, and gave up way too much to get him.

Posted by: underpants2 | August 6, 2010 3:23 PM | Report abuse

There we go with the "go be a fan of another team" comment from TheDoubleAlex. Thanks for the advice man but I have been a Caps fan since their inception and think I will stick around and be considered a "hater" by all you "reasonable" fans. And if GMGM continues to sit on his thumb and makes no moves I will still be here next May screaming for him to be fired as the players break out their golf clubs again prematurely.

Posted by: PhilR | August 4, 2010 2:32 PM | Report abuse

You're welcome for the advice. I don't even know what your views are, and I don't remember ever talking specifically to you, but I guess if you want to assume that, go right ahead.

If you're like cstanton, I just don't understand why you're still a fan. Why not go follow a team that doesn't piss you off with everything they do? That's all. I get upset with players, coaches, and GM's at times, but there's no need for the vitriol voiced by cstanton.

But again, I have no idea whether you're like him or not. I haven't paid that much attention.

Posted by: TheDoubleAlex | August 6, 2010 3:27 PM | Report abuse

Yeah if ya wanna get mad at GMGM now would be the time. There isn't anything about Madden that couldn't help this team and he went to the Wild for a lowly $1M for 1yr! Are you kidding me? I never thought he would accept a salary that low but he obviously did. He woulda helped in many many ways. This tells me that GMGM really thinks he's got his centers taken care of internally via Flash, MJ or MP. Not sure I agree with that but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 6, 2010 3:45 PM | Report abuse

@underpants2

I completely agree that there were many other D-men out there better than Corvo. But the trade itself will only be horrible, IMO, if Osala becomes something.

If he doesn't then the Caps basically gave up almost nothing(2011 2nd round pick) and got nothing in return.

So I look at it as the trade as a slight loss because it didn't really help the Caps but it didn't really hurt them either.

This would obviously change if Osala becomes something. However, if he stayed in Washington he probably would have never became anything because he would've been behind so many wingers in the organization.

I hope this doesn't sound argumentative because I am not trying to be that. I just want to try to expalin my thinking when rating the trade.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 6, 2010 3:57 PM | Report abuse

http://www.downgoesbrown.com/

Check the last 3 or 4 posts...ROFLMAO

Posted by: Rhino40 | August 6, 2010 5:17 PM | Report abuse

I'd be surprised if Osala pans out. He could never dominate at all in the AHL, so I doubt he'll do anything in the NHL. We'll see.

I've been on vacation for a week, and I just realized the Kovalchuk thing is unresolved?

I agree that Madden for 1.25 would have been a fine #3C. At least then we'd have one pivot (other than Backie) with defensive skill.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 6, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

I dont know if any of you remember Greg Joly, nuff said.
Also, I too thought Alexander Daigle was going to be the real deal but then again, nuff said.
GMGM cant be totally blamed for Mestery and the ills of our playoff woes rest more on the bench braintrust then GMGM.
He has done his job better then most GMs but uncle Ted needs to sway his loyalty and go with winners at the NHL level soon.
It always starts with the owners and he has to have a coach and GM reach there pinnicles together, at the same time in order to hoist The Cup. We seem to have one or the other seasonally and if Leonsis does not get the formula right, well nuff said. If we had a true marquee coach this past season we would have gone deeper in the playoffs.

Posted by: BernieWolfeFan | August 6, 2010 7:19 PM | Report abuse

How many cups does Madden have? He could have really helped the young guys here. Veteran leadership. Also, helps the PK. The kind of guy we need on the ice and off.

No way Madden ever gets scratched in a game 7. $1.25m?

Posted by: underpants2 | August 6, 2010 7:55 PM | Report abuse

I must admit, I thought Modano or Madden would end up here. It just sucks that both signed for $1M for 1yr. How could adding either of them to our roster hurt our team? One argument could be that it delays the development of our young guys but I think they could both use veteran proven champion leadership in these guys. Modano's won 1 Cup and Maddens won 3.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 6, 2010 8:10 PM | Report abuse

I was all for Madden, Modano not as much but I could see the positive in adding him for that price.

However, before we bash GMGM. Does anyone know know if either of those players would have accepted an equal contract to play in Washington.

I know Modano has ties to the Detroit area and wanted to be there so I don't think Washington was ever a place he wanted to go.

Madden, I have no idea, but it is possible he didn't want to go to Washington. Maybe he didn't want to live in the city? Maybe he prefers Minnesota? I don't know.

I'm not saying any of this is true, but we can't always assume a player would have signed in Washington given an equal contract offer.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 6, 2010 8:42 PM | Report abuse

Modano and Madden both off the board is very disheartening. Hopefully Willie Mitchell ends up here at least.

Posted by: ThePat | August 6, 2010 8:46 PM | Report abuse

@sgm3

You are right, Modano I dont think wanted to play here. A deal was in place for him at the deadline and he wouldnt waive his NTC.

Madden on the other hand, I dont know for sure, but I dont know why he wouldnt have considered the Caps. Odds are we probably didnt even pursue him would be my guess. An above average 3C with 3 Stanley Cups to his name, have to imagine hed have wanted to go to a team that is towards the top of the league before Minnesota but thats just my opinion.

Posted by: ThePat | August 6, 2010 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Good lord, people. The kid is 20 years old. This is a very common age for "kids" to burn out on hockey. A little unusual for a second round draft pick. But very common for Junior and college players. It is a rare and special person that will endure the life sacrifices, the pain, the injuries that will be with them all of their life, the all-consuming passion that it takes to make it to the NHL.
Scouts can identify most young players that just don't have the completed dedication. But there are many that think they want to be pros, but a little maturity and introspection and they finally realize the things they really want out of life. And sometimes they decide a life of professional hockey is not what they want.
Don't lay this on GMGM.
Kids start bailing out at the Midget level. A significant number enter Juniors only to start really assessing their futures. My son did this after 2 seasons Juniors and into his second season in college. He was good. He had great hockey vision. He had the attention of scouts. But he had spent 10+ years of his youth devoted to hockey and developing physically. He missed out on a lot of things that he no longer wanted to miss out on.
Kudos and best wishes to Eric! He achieved much much more than many guys his age could have ever imagined. He should always be proud of how far he made it.

Posted by: gewhiteva | August 6, 2010 10:35 PM | Report abuse

@ThePat

I am not so sure that the Caps didn't at least contact Modano. He said when he was introduced today that he would have retired if Detroit hadn't offered him because it didn't make since to play anywhere else.

Madden also could have told the Caps he wasn't interested as well. He has spent almost his entire career on defensive minded teams and then signed witht the Wild another defensive minded team. I don't think the Hawks would have just walked away from him at his new price without at least trying to get him back. I know they are up against the cap but he is making so little. Also I doubt the Pens didn't at least talk to him since they are thinking about moving Stall or Malkin to wing either of which would leave an opening at their #3 center position.

My point is we don't know if the Caps considered these guys or not. They very well could have offered much more then anyone else and the players just said no. Both have made plenty of money in their career so they could choose to play where they want to play instead of who pays the most money. They are not Kovy who is looking for his big payday. They are looking for the best fit for them.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 7, 2010 12:15 AM | Report abuse

I believe Modano probably wanted to stay in Dallas or Detroit was his only other option maybe Minnesota since that's where the franchise started so I'm kinda ok with that. Madden on the other hand, why in the world would you go to a team who didn't make the playoffs last yr and probably won't this yr over the Caps? Like you guys have said we may never know but I sure would like to think we coulda gotten him.

Like I said in my follow statement, this tells me that GMGM really thinks he has his 2C and 3C internally. Whether that holds to be true or not we'll see. Hey if we can do it with the kids I'm all for it. I haven't seen MJ at all but I know MP was very shifty and could dish the puck well so I'd almost like to see him between Semin and Fehr. Then again he could also be waiting for the Kovy thing to go down and then make his move.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 12:59 AM | Report abuse

@wtf_e_fehr

@Rhino 40

stanton is not the boogeyman. His analysis of the problems with this team are clearly seen in their playoff record. As for the organization, we have AN NHL RECORD 7 GAME 7 LOSES AT HOME. The Wings have 6 home game 7 losses, BUT 16 GAME 7 HOME WINS. We need to change that now. GMGM needed to make a move this off season. Sick of hearing about next year.

Rhino 40, What was GMGM doing after and during game 5 at home? The team wasn't playing team defense. They were flat in an elimination game. They acted like the series was over, while the Habs were scoring the first two goals. I don't care about game 6. This team should have played like the building was on fire in game 5. People like Cstantion want the "passengers" off the team, and the GM who signed or drafted them out of here. We want a Stanley Cup. Not "Maybe next year the guys will have learned from their past playoff mistakes" Alan May said some guys weren't playing their hardest on TV after game 7. That's amazing that former admired players think that, and the coach and GM are still here. It means we still are NOT a hockey town.
Lastly, why fear a game 7 if we are a team built of strong, driven men ? Caps fans fear game 7's because we are never built to kick ass.(We let the biggest ass kicker ever go: Scott Stevens. That's 3 rings Scott Stevens)

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 7, 2010 1:08 AM | Report abuse

Oh good Lord Hunter get over yourself! Why don't you and Cstanton go start your own blog then you can both share in each others misery. GMGM can't do anything about our past game 7 history. Nevermind, it's unfair of me to try and speak rationally to you. You won't get it.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 2:46 AM | Report abuse

It's funny reading some of the comments here, like every prospect has a chance to make the NHL club.
If your team is relatively strong, as a team finishing with over 100 points the last two seasons is...they aren't going to have a lot of prospects making the NHL team. If your team sucks, you will likely see prospects get lots of playing time.
It's hard to get it through to CapsFan, but this isn't the NFL where every draft pick makes the team and plays. If a hockey team has a bust, it isn't JaMarcus Russell level fail.

Posted by: pga6 | August 7, 2010 8:48 AM | Report abuse

GMGM can't do anything about our past game 7 history. Nevermind, it's unfair of me to try and speak rationally to you. You won't get it.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 2:46 AM | Report abuse

actually he's the only one who CAN do something to fix it, it is we who can't do anything about it.

seriously, isn't that his JOB??? LOL

Posted by: joek443 | August 7, 2010 8:53 AM | Report abuse

@ pga6

NOBODY is looking for superstars, they already have them on the team.

all we're looking for is a few ROLE players who can do a better job killing penalties and play better defense... is that too much to ask?

there are 7 rounds in the draft for a reason and if you bother to look at the rosters of every team in the NHL, NOT every player was picked in the first round. you wanna know what else? sometimes late round picks or guys who don't even get drafted have very productive careers.

NAME one such a player who GMGM discovered in his 12 friggin' years here in DC???

Posted by: joek443 | August 7, 2010 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Speaking of Halpern, what about bringing him back to play 3rd line center?

He's a solid two-way player that fist better at 3C than any of our current options. Coming home would probably invigorate him a little as well. He's a high IQ player that can do a little bit of everything while adding a vet presence. He'd also probably come at a reasonable price, too.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 7, 2010 9:12 AM | Report abuse

*fits (not fist)

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 7, 2010 9:14 AM | Report abuse

No--cstanton, hunterforcoach, and other posters who are unrelenting in their criticism to the point of obession are not bogeymen. Rather you are are tiresome posters who waste a lot of time writing the same things over and over and over, and don't engage in a discussion but rather belittle those who disagree. When all else fails those with a different view are accused of drinking the koolaid and you are are quick to accuse others of calling you haterz whenever they are in disagreement.

It's tiresome and old. It's a boring mantra of "I told you so" when the team fails and a disappearing act when the team does well.

I've been reading this blog for years and nothing ever changes from some you. There is no one solution to any problem. Not all ills can be laid at the feet of McPhee, Bruce, Green, Schultz, or whomever is the whipping boy representing years of disappointment as a Caps fan. For those of you who long for the years of Langway and Stevens and others, I respect your pain with such great players not being able to bring home the Cup. I was not so fortunate to have been a fan back then but I respect the history of the Caps.

However I think some of you need to stop looking at the history of the Caps through rose-colored glasses and to stop judging the current team by the past.

I am interested in the here and now. I am just as frustrated as any fellow Caps fans. But I am also realistic and reasonable and patient--with our current team.

I also recognize that this team is still incredibly good. We have the best player and a top center in the NHL. We have the two most important players on this team committed to remaining Caps through their prime years.

If Ovi and Nicky believe in the Caps then why can't some of you.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 9:29 AM | Report abuse

"all we're looking for is a few ROLE players who can do a better job killing penalties and play better defense... is that too much to ask?"

Hey Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the problem vs the Habs a PP that sucked a@@ and a complete lack of a second line?

2C is critical in my opinion, not role players.

Posted by: Steve_R | August 7, 2010 9:33 AM | Report abuse

The Caps pipeline is filled with prospects who were drafted after round one. Many players now have a chance to make the Caps. Whether some of you agree or not the Caps roster has been pruned back of depth and holes need to be filled. Let's give these youngsters a cup of coffee for a change. Keep the ones who work, trade or return the ones who don't. The lineup this fall will be different.

My concern is more with getting a veteran d-man to guide Carlson and Alzner and help Green and Schulz get over the hump.

I want our understudies to try out for the 2nd and 3rd center holes. We need a top notch center, not another maybe such as Belanger. I didn't think any of the UFA centers out there were of a high enough calibre to throw money at them. That's what FA is like--bidding wars. Keep the money. Let the young guys try. Then acquire the center you want at a later date if or when our young guys aren't ready.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 9:54 AM | Report abuse

Boy did the PP go bad--1 of 34 if I remember correctly. The PK actually improved during the playoffs. Just one or two morenPP conversions would have made all the difference in that series.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 10:00 AM | Report abuse

@Joe--Neuvy--2nd round--off the top of my head. He proved during his long stint with the Caps during the streak that he's ready. Eakins who still has another year before he is allowed to turn pro is another late rounder who is very promising. Can't do research until I get home but I will more than happy to draw up a full and accurate list when we do.. And of course I will include the busts too.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 10:16 AM | Report abuse

Matty P was a 6th rounder.

We'll see if Kugryshev gets a look in the A this year.

Posted by: Steve_R | August 7, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

You're right. How could I forget Perrault! Otherwise known as our 8.5 and possible center option. That's what
vacation does to the brain cells.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Holtby another late rounder 3rd IIRC-- designated no. 1 goalie for Hershey this upcoming season.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 11:45 AM | Report abuse

@Capsyoungguns,

Don't think you can say that Neuvy is "proven" as of yet. Now if he comes in this year and plays 35 games or so and has a good year, then yes at that point I would say he is a proven NHLer as a 2nd round pick.

MP also can not be considered a proven commodity at this point as he was fine for five or six games but seemed to weaken and disappear after that hence BB sending him back down. His size is an issue and it is unknown if he can take the rigors of the NHL on a regular basis ala Martin StLouis.

Being a starter in the AHL and stepping to the NHL are two different things so saying Holtby is a success at this point is also impossible.

I do hope they can solve their center issues from within or we will think back on Madden signing for that tiny amount and be very disappointed later this year. I still say package Flash and a prospect or two and solve that 2C issue through a trade before the season starts so he can have the entire season to creat chemistry with Semin and Fehr. Oh, and sign Willie Mitchell already!

Posted by: PhilR | August 7, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

@ Capsyoungguns

none of those guys are proven NHL players yet and McPhee didn't just become the GM of this team. He's only held that job for the last dozen years.

there is a fine line between building a team good enough to make the playoffs and taking that next step to win the Cup. there have been plenty of GMs in hockey as well as other sports who have NEVER been able to take that "next step".

are you and others willing to give him another dozen years to take that next step??

Posted by: joek443 | August 7, 2010 1:12 PM | Report abuse

if this team is as talented as Ted, GMGM and BB say they are, it's time for them to either put up or shut up.

Posted by: joek443 | August 7, 2010 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Katie, It's your job now. Can we see a different picture than Tarik's. It's kind of strange seeing his face and your article

Posted by: daveink44 | August 7, 2010 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Katie, It's your job now. Can we see a different picture than Tarik's. It's kind of strange seeing his face and your article

Posted by: daveink44 | August 7, 2010 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Katie, It's your job now. Can we see a different picture than Tarik's. It's kind of strange seeing his face and your article

Posted by: daveink44 | August 7, 2010 2:57 PM

They should take a snapshot of her with a Penguins jersey on... that'll go over well.

I kid... I kid...

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 7, 2010 3:14 PM | Report abuse

I'll ask again...

What about bringing Halpern back to play 3rd line center?

He's a solid two-way player that probably fits better at 3C than any of our current options. Coming home would probably invigorate him a little as well. He's a high IQ player that can do a little bit of everything while adding a vet presence. He'd also probably come at a reasonable price.

If not, who will be our 3C? That to me seems to be an issue along with 2C.

I'd prefer Halpern at 3C over Laich, Steckel or anybody else they're thinking of using in that role.

Halpern is good at face-offs, can be used in all situations and has more offensive ability than the other options. I don't think Perreault has the defensive ability to be on that line. Johansson likely isn't ready.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 7, 2010 3:23 PM | Report abuse

And I left out Flash as a 3C option because that's just a silly idea, one that I hope BB and McPhee aren't seriously considering.

His lack of face-off prowess isn't even the biggest issue. He simply doesn't have the two-way game to handle the position, or at least he hasn't shown that ability at all. You can hide his defensive limitations better on the wing.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 7, 2010 3:51 PM | Report abuse

joek/tmac/steve r:

You are all three right. First, tmac, Halpern is not bad as a #3C. Second, joek is right we need defense and PK. Third, Steve R is right we need a #2C.

The #2C and the defense/PK can be the same person. Saku Koivu would have been perfect since he could provide vet leadership, #2C and #1PKC.

At this point, moving Flash and say a #1 pick if need be could get you someone. I'd still like Umberger, but I understand maybe the team doesn't want him.

Then of course we need the #1D man. Move Flash and Ersk and you have roughly $7M to pay the center and the defenseman. So, you could afford an Umberger and a Willie Mitchell. Not out of the realm of possibility.

I am not a GMGM hater or lover. I put him in the middle. He's had some great moves and some real lousy moves. His drafting I'd say is below average, all things considered.

Very likely Halpern could be had for near $1M so he fits also. Then MP and King can be your 12th/13th/14th forwards along with AGordo, Beagle or Pinner.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 7, 2010 3:57 PM | Report abuse

I don't know anybody who liked this pick when it was made. I heard from some junior hockey fans that they didn't think Mestery would even be drafted, much less the second round.

Posted by: alanb1 | August 7, 2010 4:59 PM | Report abuse

GMGM can't do anything about our past game 7 history. Nevermind, it's unfair of me to try and speak rationally to you. You won't get it.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 2:46 AM | Report abuse

actually he's the only one who CAN do something to fix it, it is we who can't do anything about it.

seriously, isn't that his JOB??? LOL
*****************************************

The elevator doesn't quite reach the top with you does it joke? Do I really have to explain that I was talking about the game 7's he WASN'T our GM or do you think he should be responsible for those too?

LOL ha ha whatever Why don't you go to your real team blog like Pensblog? I'm sure you'll find more fans who share your view there.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 5:38 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: sgm3 | August 7, 2010 6:09 PM | Report abuse

GMGM can't do anything about our past game 7 history. Nevermind, it's unfair of me to try and speak rationally to you. You won't get it.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 2:46 AM | Report abuse

actually he's the only one who CAN do something to fix it, it is we who can't do anything about it.

seriously, isn't that his JOB??? LOL
*****************************************

Unless GMGM is actually Marty McFly and has access to a Dolorian then no, he cannot go back in time and "fix" past game 7s. He can do stuff about future game 7s, but not past game 7s.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 7, 2010 6:13 PM | Report abuse

well let's see... wasn't McPhee the GM of this team last year when they made yet another dubious playoff history??

instead of fixing/erasing the past playoff blunders, he's been doing a great job of ADDING to the misery.

but then again we have brainwashed people like pokey on here who think he can do no wrong... LOL if criticizing the failures makes me a Pens fan, I'd much rather be that than be BRAIN-WASHED.

Posted by: joek443 | August 7, 2010 6:49 PM | Report abuse

The team has lost 3 game 7's in 3 years, all at home, all under BB and McPhee.

With a record like that, wouldn't a John Madden help?

Posted by: underpants2 | August 7, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

@philr and Joe--I hear you both, and I agree we have no idea how these young guys are going to work out, but they are really good prospects who need to be brought up to the NHL. (I am personally a huge fan of Neuvy and believe he certainly proven that he needs to be in the NHL. Whether he's elite remains to be seen, as well as with Varly.)

I see a difference in evaluating pre- and post-team blowup so I have remained focused on the later draftees. And many of them have maturated enough. It's time to give them a look.

Personally I'm of the mindset that McPhee is above average on drafting--some great, some terrible-- but very good at trades. With the thinned out roster I expect to see different prospects at the beginning of the season and who knows after the deadline. I guess I expect some trades to be frank.

As for patience, well yes I guess I am feeling it right now. Check back with me at the trade deadline and I'll let you know if I feel any different.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 9:34 PM | Report abuse

Underpants,

How would Madden have helped vs the Habs when the problem was the PP and the second line not scoring? Madden is a 3C, no?

Joe,

What specificly led to the loss vs the Habs? To me it was a) the pp which was great all year long failed in the playoffs b) the second line and c) Gabby's seeming lack of adjustments. What's your take on it and what should GM have done leading up to this season?

Posted by: Steve_R | August 7, 2010 9:45 PM | Report abuse

As for Nuevy being "proven", just look at Alexander Giroux. He has proven anything and everything w/Hershey at the AHL level yet finally at his age, he gets a 1 yr contract w/Edmonton. Hope he does well this year and wish him the best.

Posted by: BernieWolfeFan | August 7, 2010 9:53 PM | Report abuse

@pokerface
@capsyoungguns

Pockerface, how does GMGM have nothing to do with the last 3 game 7 home performances? That disaster against the Pens at home was an epic collapse against a bitter rival. (i.e. Bill Guerion should have been on the Caps, not scoring a back breaking third goal.)He picks the players for the coach.

We've sat in the stands and watched how the Isles, Pens, Rangers, Devils, Bolts, and Canes were slowly constructed during their Cup runs. We don't have the hockey toughness of any of those teams. WE'RE NOT CONSTRUCTED LIKE A STANLEY CUP CHAMPION.GM's roster can't and won't play play off hockey. That's why our power play scored one goal. That's how we got down 1-3 to a poor Rangers team. Until "the passengers" are traded, we exit early again.

I love the Caps, but I'm a hockey fan. Stantion analysis of GMGM is unfortunately correct. I hope he's wrong, but I've seen too much play off hockey. I hope GMGM can move guys like Flush and Semin before another home game 7 disaster. I believe that Ovi and Backi are winners at heart, and they'll force a GM change eventually. The fans can also force a GM change too. Just like we forced action on Hanlon. Unfortunately, this won't come until this group collapses again. I hope I'm dead wrong, but many of you are afraid I'm right.

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 7, 2010 9:54 PM | Report abuse

@underpants2

I was a big proponent for signing Madden. If he would have come to the Caps for the same contract then, IMO, it was a mistake for GMGM not to sign him.

However, we do not know if Madden wanted to sign with the Caps or if he would have.

@Steve_R

Your listing of the 3 biggest reasons for the Caps loss to the Habs is about dead on. On BB, I would also say his refusal to do more line matching was also a factor.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 7, 2010 10:00 PM | Report abuse

Hunter,
I also have been watching The Caps way too long and very much agree with your and Stantions analysis on the Caps braintrust. Sure, the players can influence the glaring deficiencies but it needs to come from TLeonsis first and more so. The owners do have a major role in the on ice product and to ask us, the fans and the players to step up is way past the point of no return.

"Just like we forced action on Hanlon. Unfortunately, this won't come until this group collapses again. I hope I'm dead wrong, but many of you are afraid I'm right." Props dude or dudette.

Posted by: BernieWolfeFan | August 7, 2010 10:10 PM | Report abuse

SGM - that is my 1 knock on BB as well. I'm not sure of his coaching past but he has stated that he doesn't like to match lines. I don't know if this is due to current personnel or if he's always been this way. Maybe somebody who saw him down in Hershey can elaborate on that. The thing is tho, this past yr OV and Backy weren't the problems so getting them out there and double shifting them wasn't the issue. It was the PP. BMo made a comment a month or so ago stating that BB made no changes and that hurt us. I tend to believe this more than line matching being a problem. Bottom line this is the 2nd yr in a row where BB has been dealt critisizm for his lack of changes, creativity or spontanaety whatever you want to call it. I remember watching us against Philly and I really felt BB was out coached and over his head but felt like it was a learning lesson for him as well. I didn't have the same feeling these past 2 yrs. I've felt like he did an adequate job but hearing there was ZERO changes made on a PP that went 1 for 34 isn't a good sign.

There are many that feel the "style" of play he coaches will never succeed in the playoffs. I for one believe it can depending on the personnel. It just sucks when you have elite talent like Semin and then good secondary talent like Flash and they decide not to show up for a series.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 10:23 PM | Report abuse

Poker,
Exactly, we were outcoached by Montreal big time. No one style wins cups. That is why it is called Playoff Hockey and players and coaches need to step it up and play/coach like the playoffs. Yeah, we had a great reg season but BB kept the same theme against Montreal. We lost early, BB made adjustments, and came back. Montreal made adjustments, came back and BB did not know how to adjust beyond that and paniced. The rest is sad, painfull history.

Posted by: BernieWolfeFan | August 7, 2010 10:36 PM | Report abuse

@hunterforcoach--I respect that you have a different philosophy for how a contending team should be constructed but the truth of the matter is that each Cup winning team since the lockout has been built a little differently.

There is no magic bullet for winning the Cup. And if anything the Caps are IMO built much more like the Hawks but the Hawks had better balance of skill between forwards and defenders. With the addition of Alzner and Carlson the Caps balance is much better. I worry about the youth factor. But I'm excited to see them for a full season.

Finally, although it is a poor substitute the Presidents' Cup is still an achievement. They didn't have a good regular season but an historic, record-breaking one. If anything goals came too easily and then when they didn't the players nor the coach made enough adjustments. A season of working with making systems adjustments and having to work a little harder for the wins will be just fine for me.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 7, 2010 11:03 PM | Report abuse

Capsyoungguns - you're right. For a team that had never even come close to winning a President's trophy it was a great accomplishment. Now that we've been there now and have accomplished that it's on to bigger and better things. I predicted last yr at the beginning of the yr we'd win the President's tropy but I also thought we'd go a lot deeper into the playoffs. We've accomplished about all we can in my mind outside of the playoffs. It's time to grow up & win in the real season now.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 11:23 PM | Report abuse

@pokerface

After the series I had the same feelings as you about the PP and BB not making changes.

However, I watched the replays of the playoff games a few weeks ago when they were on the NHL Network and I was amazed to see how many glorious scoring chances the Caps had on the PP that they just didn't cash in on.

The Habs basically put a man on Ovie. The Caps actually adjusted and had Backstrom setting up Knuble and Semin in the slot. They were both getting a lot of wide open shots from about 7 feet away, directly in the center of the ice in front of the goalie.

Unfortunately it seemed that they missed the net on an absurdly high amount of shots and the few actually hit the net were saved by Halak. The missing of the net obviously means none of them went in but it also meant they didn't create rebound opportunities.

On the PP you can't really ask for much better shot opportunities than that. So the system was fine on the PP, the execution was just off. And it was basically only the execution of the shots that were off.

By the last few games of the series you could see the lack of scoring getting in the minds of the players on the PP and they seemed to be gripping their sticks tighter and shooting at every opportunity instead of waiting as they were doing earlier in the series. This seemed to be caused by the players mindset being effected by their previous failures and not a change in coaching because the plan to create shot opportunities still remained the same.

So after seeing the replays I am now in belief that the PP did not fail because of a coaching failure but failed because of a lack of execution. All a coach can do is put the people in the right spots(like getting shots from 7 feet from the goal), it is up to the players to shoot those shots accurately.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 8, 2010 12:03 AM | Report abuse

@pokerface
@capsyoungguns

I agree with you both. It's time to win "the real season". Let's take a chance on Mitchell. Lets attack the playoffs like the Flyers did last year. "Every shift is the last shift of your life" (Mike Richards)

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 8, 2010 12:17 AM | Report abuse

I agree with Mitchell. He'd be a nice addition. Once again we don't need a lot of help for the regular season so if he can only give us 5-60 games fine. Just be healthy for the playoffs. He's coming off a pretty good concussion so I'm really thinking he'll be had for cheap and may wind up being a great addition. If he bombs out it won't cost us so much so I'm all for it.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 8, 2010 1:05 AM | Report abuse

I'm all for signing Willie Mitchell. I just hope he is willing to come to DC.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 8, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

@sqm3--wow, you have a high threshhold for pain to rewatch those games, but from what I recall I agree with much of your assessment.

IMO the players blew it in game 5when they didn't come out like they were going to crush the Habs but rather that it should be an easy win. In game 6 it was Bruce who IMO blinked by messing with the first line--the only reliably scoring line at that point--by putting Belanger with Ovi and Knubs and moving Nicky to jumpstart Semin.

I think it got into their heads. And sticks got gripped too tightly and too many blown opportunities near Halak. I recall Alzner later saying that the locker room for game 7 was incredibly tense and unnaturally quiet. By the time Ovi's goal was ruled a nongoal I'm sure they all felt as though the hockey gods had abandoned them.

What I hope this team including Ovi learned was to never assume anything and to grind your opponent into the ground. Don't even let them think they have a chance kind of attitude is what I want to see from the players. As Gretzky said this past spring of the Caps is that sometimes a team has to lose in order to figure out how to win. They have the skill and hopefully they have now learned what they need for their mental toughness.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 8, 2010 2:49 PM | Report abuse

@Capsyoungguns

I completely agree with you about the first period of game 5. IMO, if the Caps came out and took a lead in the 1st period of that game Montreal would have folded. But the Caps came out incredibly flat and played horribly in the 1st period, like they thought they alread won and only had to go through the motions.

The blame for that falls on everybody.

It falls on the coach for not doing a better job for not better instilling the need to play game 5 as they played the previous games.

Blame also falls on all the players for coming out in the 1st period amazingly flat and thinking they already won.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 8, 2010 3:31 PM | Report abuse

SGM - supposedly Mitchell is considering us and San Jose. I've heard he's a west coast kinda guy but who knows? I've also heard that we're his #1 choice. Like with most things in life we'll have to wait and see.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 8, 2010 5:12 PM | Report abuse

@sqm3--indeed true.

@sqm3 and pokerface-- I really like the idea of Mitchell in a Caps jersey primarily for veteran experience on the blueline. Lots of rumors out there, but this one makes more sense to me than the Niemi ones. Heard there was a third team in the West in play but can't remember which one. Guess it will boil down to health and cash.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 8, 2010 6:07 PM | Report abuse

Just listened to Japers rink radio episode from yesterday on iTunes. As usual it was a good show. Katie Carrera was their guest. Very
personable and interesting. She's definitely into hockey. She's got some great ideas for CI once the season gets underway, which cannot come too soon for me. Who cares if what's his name on the Skins passed his fitness test or not!

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 8, 2010 6:15 PM | Report abuse

Steve R: I posted awhile back the six reasons the Caps lost to Habs. Can't remember for sure but think it was:

25% BB got outcoached.
20% Habs skaters simply played their overall game better than Caps played their game.
20% Halak super goaltending.
15% Caps PP failed to click.
15% McPhee failed to properly configure Caps.
5% bad bounces.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 8, 2010 9:00 PM | Report abuse

Tom - sorry bro I don't agree. About 75% of your equation should be the PP and the Caps Offense in general. BB is a small part for not making adjustments to the PP. Another part would be Halak standing on his head. Lets not forget that the ref owns a small part as well for calling off a very legal goal. Who knows what happens if that goal was allowed. You did say 5% due to bad bounces so I'm sure that's what you're referring to.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 8, 2010 10:03 PM | Report abuse

You know I just had another thought. We have about 4-5M in cap space last I looked. We're not counting Nylander in this as he obviously won't play for us. Regardless we still have to pay him 3M this yr so I wonder if GMGM hasn't done anything due to an internal cap hit of Nylander. Maybe Ted doesn't want him spending over that limit regardless if it counts against the cap or not. They obviously can't come out and say this as it would be bad PR. If this is true then we have 1M or so to play with and maybe he's saving this for injury call ups etc or deadline moves.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 8, 2010 10:08 PM | Report abuse

pokerface: I think we agree more than you think. The 5% was the called-off goal. The failure of the PP manifests itself in the 25% BB outcoached; the 20% Habs playing better; the 20% Halak on head; and the 15% Caps PP failing to click.

First off, how many here can use the word "manifests" w/o it sounding like it was contrived?

OK, how many can use the word "contrived" w/o it sounding contrived?

I have given myself too much credit. But who cares?

Anyway, what I tried to do, in the earlier post, which I didn't copy, but rather just above summarized (and how many can use the word "rather" in that English way?) was consttruct an explanation for the failure of the Caps without simply saying it "was just the power play."

OK, for a second, just think how simple it is to say, "1 for 34 on PP...what if it had been 3 for 34...or 5 for 34...or the season average 25% 8.5 for 34..."

So then, we can conclude, very simply, "The Caps lost cuz the power play failed."

But, you know, this is like saying the US economy failed in 2009 because homeowners didn't make their mortgage payments.

Sure...but...sometimes in life we need to peel back that onion.

So, pokerface, you wiley ol' devil, I tried to dissect that PP failure to its root causes (notice I properly used the possessive of it) and assign percentage blame to the components of the failure.

Now, to wit, why did the PP go 1 for 34? For one reason? Or many? I say, to paraphrase Mister Spock, the failures of the many outweighed the failures of the few.

I say, most times in life, the reason something happens isn't just because it happened but due to some underlying reason.

Anyway, let's perform that dissection. First off, McPhee failed at the deadline to come up with anyone who helped the PP. OK, he got Belanger, and he did well in a defensive role, but that was it. Second, compared to Hershey, who also faced a slot-clogging opponent, the Caps totally failed to adapt to what Montreal did after Game 4. Third, Halak was great and who can deny it. So, in the end, I assigned the causal effect over several areas rather than just say "Caps failed on PP." Because it ISN'T THAT SIMPLE (see, I can be serious, and I am, for one of the very few times I've ever posted).

Bottom line: 1) Caps via McPhee failed to acquire all the right pieces; 2) Martin backed up 3-1 employed the slot-clogging defense; 3) BB failed to recognize and left the Caps firing long range (mostly) last three games; 4) Halak was superb; 5) Far too many shots from bad angles; 6) Bad break on a goal that maybe should have counted.

It was a perfect storm of bad luck but then again we made our own bed so how can you complain when you slept in it.

I agree with some of the naysayers: Even had we gotten past Round 1, where's the evidence we'd have gone any further?

Simply put, there's no evidence, just conjecture.

Which I don't buy.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 12:03 AM | Report abuse

By the way, should anyone be interested, I shall entitle the above post as my "Second Treatise on Power Play Failure." It would be my objective at this point to form a collaborative effort interweaving various viewpoints on both Washington Capitals and NHL hockey and publish a textbook explaining, to the laymen, the hows and whys to building an NHL powerhouse.

He-heh.

Naturally I'm just kidding as the only way I'd know an NHL powerhouse is in arrears after it has won multiple championships.

It is, however, fun to pretend, even if just for a fleeting moment.

I remain, predictor of all but knower of nothing, yours,

nostrathomas

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 1:04 AM | Report abuse

@tominsocal1

After watching the games again I really think lack of execution has to be somewhere and has to be a considerable amount. Guys(usually Knuble and Semin) were set up in perfect open spots(7 ft. from the goal, in the center of the ice), but they just misfired on a high percentage of their shots. I don't mean not scoring, I mean missing the goal entirely.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 9, 2010 7:27 AM | Report abuse

@sgm3

Perhaps the goal wasnt regulation size.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 8:55 AM | Report abuse

@tominsocal--I agree that no one thing such as the PP failure was the reason for the Caps' loss, but I don't think the infusion of outside talent at the deadline would have helped the PP. It was one of the best PP units during the season with the same group.

Personally I believe it was a systems error thus the fault lies with BB for not adjusting it effectively enough. He moved players such as Ovi around but it still relied on a rush entry--such as Ovi's one PP goal--which was usually broken up by the Habs, and the Caps then couldn't get it set up properly.

I want and hope BB addresses the underlying systems for both the PP and the PK (which actually improved during the playoffs) this upcomng season.

Posted by: Capsyoungguns | August 9, 2010 9:11 AM | Report abuse

@SAOTI

Yeah, I think they did use a minature goal against us.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 9, 2010 9:43 AM | Report abuse

@sgm3

you mention that Semin and Knuble were both in perfect positions wide open in the slot. That is a perfect position for Semin to be I agree. But Knuble should never be there and thats on BB. On a PP Knuble should be right on the crease and nowhere else. Knuble's shot is not very good, to be in the slot on a PP you need to have a good shot and a quick release. Put Ovi in the slot and give Carlson or B.Mo more PP time at the point should have been the coaching move in my opinion.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 10:15 AM | Report abuse

LOL ha ha whatever Why don't you go to your real team blog like Pensblog? I'm sure you'll find more fans who share your view there.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 7, 2010 5:38 PM | Report abuse

Joe, you should take him up on that. You'd probably be exposed to more objective criticism re: the Caps.

-----------------------------

Tom: I agree with some of the naysayers: Even had we gotten past Round 1, where's the evidence we'd have gone any further

-- we'd have gotten waxed in the next round. Its only a pipedream that some Caps fans and our GM/coach like to hold onto that oh gee if we'd just gotten a few breaks and gotten past this one team then watch out!

I read some of the breakdowns on why we apparently lost the series. Gripped the sticks too tightly? ugh, is that what we're down to now for excuses? Whether a Flash missed an open net or two wasn't the difference. This team simply took the Habs too lightly and we gained a 3-1 series lead even though it could've been 3-1 in their favor very easily or at worst tied at 2. No killer instinct. That's why we blew it. We let other teams push the pace and then we try and react to it. When you watch other teams play, some of them won't slow the pace down even when they're up by a comfortable margin. Late in the 3rd they're still going at their opponents with everything they have. That's how you carry momentum over to the next game. In contrast, the Caps always look like they're trying to conserve as much energy as possible. You know that most of the Caps (not named Bradley or Ovy) will stop finishing checks in a game that they're comfortably ahead in. That's just their style, and that's why they get the tag for lacking a killer instinct. And you can rest that squarely on the shoulders of the coach. He allows that dropoff in effort. And then wonders why we come out in the next game a little slow.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 9, 2010 10:18 AM | Report abuse

Regardless we still have to pay him 3M this yr so I wonder if GMGM hasn't done anything due to an internal cap hit of Nylander. Maybe Ted doesn't want him spending over that limit regardless if it counts against the cap or not. They obviously can't come out and say this as it would be bad PR. If this is true then we have 1M or so to play with and maybe he's saving this for injury call ups etc or deadline moves.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 8, 2010 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Gee I thought Ted and GMGM were all about winning the Cup according to you and other apologists on here, no???

now you're saying they're just cheap-skates?? welcome to the club, pokey!!!

Posted by: joek443 | August 9, 2010 10:47 AM | Report abuse

Kovy decision due today. Place your bets folks.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 11:03 AM | Report abuse

@ThePat

The reason those shots were open were because Montreal had a man shadowing Ovie. So Ovie moved closer to the blue line to draw his man out and open up the slot area.

The time Knuble took the shots were when he moved back two or three steps from the crease and received a well timed pass. Then other times Semin would move in to take the slot area. They did both so the opposite side defender did not know what was coming.

By slot, I mean dead center in front of the net, 7 ft. out.

Yes, Knuble doesn't have a brilliant shot but he can score from there or at least hit the net.

But the main problem wasn't just the lack of scoring on those shots, it was the high percentage of shots missing the net completely. Which then led to no rebound attempts and often killed the momentum of the PP(with many shots leaving the rink or bouncing around the boards and out of the zone)

Posted by: sgm3 | August 9, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

@sgm3

I know what you are saying. And i know the shots werent hitting the net. Knubles not the guy to put it on net, hes the guy to put it in once it hits the goalie. So it makes no sense to have him 5-10 feet from the crease.

Like you said they had a guy shadowing Ovi. You put him in the slot that takes a guys attention off the point, creates more shots from there. Theres more traffic with Ovi and his shadower in the slot, more distraction for Halak. Plain and simple that was the move to make, once your PP hits 1 for 15 and you have no traffic in front it doesnt take a genius to figure it out in my opinion.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 11:18 AM | Report abuse

@ThePat

We differ on this which is fine. But the scoring chances they had were glorious.

Which, IMO, is all you can ask for when setting up a PP. The players at some point have to hit their shot, just like in basketball. You can run a perfect play that gives a guy a wide open 5 foot shot, but if he misses the shot it doesn't mean the play was bad, just the execution.

Knuble actually has a decent shot and Semin's is amazing. The shot opportunities were amazing, the just missed them(some of Semin's shots were taken with Knuble in front of the net and even a few of Knuble's were take with Laich in front of the net).

I have to disagree with you on the Ovie idea. If you have a choice to have a 5 on 4 PP or a 4 on 3 PP you choose the 4 on 3.

So we will agree to disagree on this.

I don't think the NHL Network is showing the Caps/Habs series anymore but if they do I highly recommend watching the replays. It definitely gives a different, and clearer persepctive on what happened.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 9, 2010 11:44 AM | Report abuse

@sgm3

I agree youd rather have a 4 on 3 but thats not how the Caps exploited it. Ovi still touched the puck a lot on the PP, I did watch some of the replayed games not all. One of the problems for our PP was Halak saw every shot that got to him. If you placed Ovi and the shadower down in the slot area thats more traffic to look through, could create more deflections and bounces giving us better chances. We did have glorious chances, no argument there. But Halak saw almost all of those glorious chances with no one blocking his view. The couple times that we had traffic, we got rebound opportunities or the non goal in game 7. I'd take more chances with bodies in front than the shots in the slot with Halak seeing everything.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 11:55 AM | Report abuse

I have to disagree with you on the Ovie idea. If you have a choice to have a 5 on 4 PP or a 4 on 3 PP you choose the 4 on 3.

@sgm3,

I have to disagree with this statement....by Ovie taking a defender out to the point with him it may have created a 4 on 3 PP in your eyes BUT it is restricted to one side of the ice surface which pretty much takes away any advantage. By placing Ovie in the slot as ThePat suggested you can swing the puck around the points freely as teh D will collapse to Ovie. Quick passes back and forth beween point men will eventually open a lane to the net for a slapper where Knuble can lay in wait.

To me that would have been the more advantageous strategy to employ.

Posted by: PhilR | August 9, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

@ThePat

I agree with having net presence.

I guess my point of the entire thing was the amount of shots that were missing the net. It doesn't matter how much net presence you have or don't have if the shots consistently miss the net.

From what I saw, it seemed as if an extrodinarily high percentage of great opportunities(within 10 ft. of the net) missed the net completely.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 9, 2010 12:00 PM | Report abuse

Kovy odds:

I will just repeat what I put about two weeks back.

50% chance arbitrator changes the contract and/or parties modify the contract.

30% chance arbitrator rules for league and voids contract.

20% arbitrator rules for NHLPA and upholds contract.

So, in summary, 80% chance contract is modified or voided and only 20% chance the contract stands as is.

Those are my odds, and I'm basing them on the section of the CBA that says a contract cannot circumvent the cap. Mind you, this section doesn't say it has to have been done intentionally, it just says that nothing can be done contractually that circumvents the intention of the salary cap. I believe this clause gives the arbitrator just enough wiggle room to either modify the contract (he can do that), work with the parties to amend it or simply void it.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 12:33 PM | Report abuse

Can the arbitrator modify the contract to stipulate that GMGM trades away Flash, Sloan, and Erskine and in return gains a 2C and 1st pairing D-man?

Cause if so, that'd be kinda cool...

Sorry GMGM, the ruling clearly states you have to do this. Now get on it.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 12:39 PM | Report abuse

@tominsocal1

I really hope your predictions are off. If the contract is voided we are headed right for another lockout. Circumventing or not, they allowed all the other contracts. This one should stand and fix the issue next time the CBA comes up. You cant take everything away from the players.

My prediction 80% the arbitrator allows it. 15% he allows it with a slight modification and 5% he voids it.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Katie.

Please create another post as this one is getting to be as long as the Obamacare bill!

Posted by: PhilR | August 9, 2010 12:49 PM | Report abuse

To my understanding, I thought Kovy's violated the current CBA and the others didnt. Granted they all were intentionally violating the principle stipulated in the CBA, but the others met the criteria.

Something about price drop between years being too great and amount saved on cap hit were too great. Can anyone clarify this? I was under the impression it was violated by the NHL for legit reasons outlined in the CBA about circumventing the cap hit.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 12:55 PM | Report abuse

@all:

Absent a new thread, Let s discuss this possibility:

--Sign W. Mitchell to 1- or 2-year deal.
--Trade Fleishcman + pick to Vancouver for Kevin Bieksa.

This makes sense for the following reasons:

--Vancouver has a plethora of quality defencemen (note Canadian spelling), but needs help up front, which they get relatively cheap by acquiring Flash.
--Our over-abundance of wingers and shortage of mean defencemen are both addressed.
--Mitchell and Beiksa have been effective together as Vancouver's shut-down pair...both are big & mean.

We can then deal both Erskine and Sloan, keeping Alzner up as a 7th D, freeing up cap space for a good UFA 2C.

Also, I would keep Belanger for the third line.

Lines might then look something like this:

8-19-22
16-[2C]-28
21-18-DJK/15
25-39-10.

Green/Schultz
Bieksa/Mitchell
Carlson/Poti

Alzner


Varlamov/Neuvirth


Please discuss.

Posted by: Rhino40 | August 9, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Vetoed not violated.

Stupid brain, going to have to stab you with another q-tip to teach you not to fail me.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 12:57 PM | Report abuse

@SAOTI

The only way his contract violates the CBA from a legal perspective is if you can prove he won't play out the length of his contract and thus it would be circumvention. At least that is how I interpret it working at a law firm. So I fully expect it to be held up.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 1:00 PM | Report abuse

@Rhino40

Im all for Willie Mitchell. Vancouver is not going to trade Bieska right now due to Salo hurting his achilles and being out for a few months, maybe the season. At this point I wouldnt mind seeing Belanger back but Id prefer a C that has won in the playoffs before.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Not a bad proposal Rhino, however I think it's going to be hard enough for GMGM to bring us 1 dman, let alone 2. Fingers crossed for 1, 2 is just being greedy I think.

I also agree that Belanger would be a decent 3C, but not sure we could get him cheap enough to make it worth our while. Would rather see us sign a solid 2C and fill 3C with something in house.

And thats me just being a realist. In a more hopeful world...your scenario is a decent one...just dont see that happening with GMGMs track record.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 1:05 PM | Report abuse

@ThePat

Thanks. However, I could have sworn Tom "Voltar" Insocal/fl linked a particular part of the CBA that said a contract cant drop more than like $5 mil from one year to the next and it seems the way Kovy's deal was laid out he drops from 10ish mil a year to 550k a year at around the 11/12 year mark. Also I thought same said oracle, pointed to something saying that the highest year salary can be more than like 2-3 mil below the cap hit. And in his big money years he is going to be like 4 below the hit. Again, just looking for the legality of the contract.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 1:11 PM | Report abuse

KovyRama....again???


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Rhino40 | August 9, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Ugh, brain failed again....2-3 above the cap hit...and he will be 4ish above in his max salary years.

Sigh...Mondays.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 1:16 PM | Report abuse

@SAOTI

The part of the CBA he linked to, I guess you'd say is not legally clear. It can be interpreted in one of two ways. The way Tom did and the way NJ did. So Im not saying Tom is wrong, but the language there is iffy at best and I dont think legally will hold up when the league tries to use that as its arguing point. And I think Lou knew exactly that and thats why he did the contract like this. To prove a point to the league, while at the same time saying this needs to be fixed and amended the next time the league and PA sit down.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 1:18 PM | Report abuse

The difference is that some of the other contracts, like Hossa's, the teams could point to Yzerman contract as a for instance and claim, "some far-fetched basis in reality." Kovy though has like final six years at min salary. It would be categorically impossible for a former superstar to sink to min salary performance level and stay there six years.

The CBA is not black and white. It clearly says you can't have agreements that circumvent the cap. I believe the arbitrator will rule that 11.5 in payment and 6.0 in cap hit is a de facto circumvention. And, again, it doesn't have to be intentional and you don't need a "smoking gun" for the league to win. BTW, several other contracts have been changed because they didn't match the CBA. They just weren't big deals so they didn't get the press.

We shall see if ThePat or nostrathomas turns out to be the better prognosticator.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

SeminAllOverTheIce:
i can't remember exactly how the cba reads, but there is something about how much a contract can 'drop' in the declining years and i think this is related to the beginning of the contract. i also think this is why the first two years are at $6M before it jumps to $11M+ and then back down at the end.
none of the other 'circumventing' contracts do this.

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 1:27 PM | Report abuse

i guess this is old news and noncaps related but holey crap did anyone ever see this GQ article on the Marvin Harrison shooting? Its fascinating. I could see a Mike Irvin doing this. But Harrison? I thought he was like a Darrell Green type. Quiet and religious or something. There's a Dixon and a Nixon in this story so it can get confusing. But Dixon is the 300lb dope dealer who gets clipped and Nixon is the witness to the 1st assault that occurred a yr earlier.

http://www.gq.com/sports/profiles/201002/marvin-harrison

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4826851

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 9, 2010 1:27 PM | Report abuse

@ThePat

I agree.

@SAOTI

The CBA does have loose guidelines with how much a salary can increase and decrese from year to year, but Kovy's contract complied with all of those.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 9, 2010 1:29 PM | Report abuse

Detroit just signed defenseman Ruslan Salei. It would now seem unlikely that they would also sign Mitchell, maybe clearing the way for GMGM to sign him for a reasonable amount. Let's hope that GMGM gets this done.

Posted by: MReilly9 | August 9, 2010 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Go get Willie!!!

Posted by: lylewimbledon | August 9, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

interesting sidenote to the Wings getting Salei right after they get Modano. Salei almost broke Modano's neck 10 yrs ago on a cheapshot hit from behind. I think he broke his nose and cheekbone on that hit. And Brett Hull of all people went over to challenge Salei to a fight. I wonder if Modano still harbors some bad feelings.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 9, 2010 2:37 PM | Report abuse

And then he crashed the White House dinner with his less than attractive wife.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse

nice

she's just a meatier version of ann coulter

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 9, 2010 3:04 PM | Report abuse

Sweet...R. Cote retired. One less d bag to take runs and cheap shots at our guys who can play. Probably said, "First Boogaard AND now King. How the heck am I going to run Gaborik and Semin now?...F that, Im out".

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 9, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

ahh cote was an honest fighter. Like any other rough and tumble player he probably took his share of runs at skill guys (who doesn't!) but for the most part he played the game hard and honest. And never backed down from a fight even though he ended up having to fight all the heavies and he wasn't built as big as them. Anytime anyone challenged him, he'd take em on. That's one of the reasons George Laraque agreed to fight him once. Laraque had nothing to prove but he had a lot of respect for the way Cote played his role despite going against much bigger heavyweights and he wanted to give Cote a chance to impress his coach and teammates. Making that jump from the AHL is pretty hard when you have to go against guys who are 4 inches bigger and much stronger.

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 9, 2010 3:50 PM | Report abuse

I wonder if Modano still harbors some bad feelings.
------------

I vividly remember that hit, it was ugly - and its aftermath [and Salei's weaselly defense 'I didn't hit that hard' - c'mon dude you hit him straight from behind directly into the boards, head-first]. The Stars IIRC had some very tough customers at the time, many of whom were itching at the chance to come to the defense of their popular, still-in-his-prime superstar; instead Modano said something to the effect of, "He could have killed me, but two wrongs don't make a right, I don't want anybody going after Salei," but probably more eloquently than that.

I was stunned, needless to say, and quickly realized Modano's a bigger man than I probably would've been in that situation.

So, I'm guessing not - my respect for Modano shot up after that; he seems like a pretty classy guy.

And as a postscript - I'll be Salei's in Det's top-4 come next spring. He may be a d-bag, but that guy can play some D.

Posted by: Timbo_1 | August 9, 2010 5:05 PM | Report abuse

And as for Modano - that line of MM-Hudler-I'm guessing Cleary is one helluva 3rd-line; they could definitely create match-up problems for some teams.

Posted by: Timbo_1 | August 9, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse

Kovalchuck is a UFA once again.

Tom you were correct and I was wrong. Not a good sign for the league and NHLPA moving forward in my opinion when they have to sit down for next set of talks.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 5:27 PM | Report abuse

ThePat:
where did you see the ruling. i've been checking nhl.com and tsn.ca and haven't seen anything yet

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

All over twitter...where all the news breaks first.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

ThePat:
never mind - nhl.com has it now

"According to multiple reports"...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=535755

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 5:32 PM | Report abuse

All over twitter...where all the news breaks first.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 5:31 PM

haha - i don't 'tweet'

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 5:33 PM | Report abuse

Now the only question is does the NHL fine NJ which they can up to $5 million and whatever they do fine them counts against the cap.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 9, 2010 5:35 PM | Report abuse

a little more detail - not much though

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=535745&navid=DL|NHL|home

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 5:47 PM | Report abuse

Now this is disastrous:

Arbitrator Bloch says " this is a retirement contract" in his report. said deal "well beyond the typical retirement age for NHL players".

That was apparently part of his justification. If thats the main part of his conclusion this is a complete joke and the NHL should be ashamed. The NHLPA could take this to court but obviously due to time that is extremely doubtful. It all spells 2012 lockout sadly unless things change.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 6:04 PM | Report abuse

ThePat - regardless of what the arbitrator said publicly the contract shouldn't have been approved. There's only 1 thing to consider here, do you honestly thing it was intended to circumvent the cap. If your answer is no I don't think you're being very honest with yourself.

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 9, 2010 6:24 PM | Report abuse

@pokerface

Was it done to circumvent it yes. But so was Hossa, Pronger, Luongo and others. The NHL's main argument wasnt circumvention, just that it went beyond predicted age of said player. They cant predict the age to which Kovy will stop playing. Recchi, Selanne, Chelios, many players have played into their 40's. Based on their argument the Kings 15 year 80 million offer would have been void to. Look I dont care if he's a Devil or where he plays, I care about the league. With this ruling and the way the players are treated they wont be playing in 2012.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 6:32 PM | Report abuse

I don't see why the players should care that they lost. The players get a fixed piece of the pie. The money Kovalchuk just lost simply gets redistributed to all the other players. If I'm Ovechkin, and I already have my contract, I'm pleased by this.

To think, ThePat, you actually questioned the prediction of nostrathomas?

Remember, I had seen this result predicted in the ice chips at the bottom of a Bombay Sapphire martini.

Read the ice chips, my friend; read the ice chips.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 6:34 PM | Report abuse

Read the ice chips, my friend; read the ice chips.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 6:34 PM

yes - before they get too blurry

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 6:37 PM | Report abuse

ThePat: I read the particulars in the Kings offer and it would have passed. They used real values from Kariya and Yzerman contracts for the last few seasons. I found the Devils contract absurd but I found the Kings offer logical.

Bottom line: six years of min salary at the end too much to swallow. Yes, Chelios and others played to 44 but they DID NOT make min salary for the last six seasons. Had the NJ deal tapered off over those last six years to maybe 17 yrs, $119M (and then a $7M yearly hit) with maybe 6-5-4-3-2-1 for the last six, maybe it would have been approved. At that point, you can argue it would be at least somewhat plausible.

BTW, are there any openings in your law firm for someone who can predict the future? :)

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 6:41 PM | Report abuse

@tom

The money wasnt the issue the contract got denied. It was the age he would be that the contract ended which was the justification. Thats why the players are mad. They are basically being told when they can and cant play. If Marc Recchi were to sign a 4 year deal today based on todays ruling it could be vetoed. They denied the contract based on an assumption of his playing age, not for circumventing the cap. The NHL basically making up rules as they go along, thats what infuriates the players.

Posted by: ThePat | August 9, 2010 6:57 PM | Report abuse

if Recchi signed a five year deal:
yr1 $3M and yrs 2-4 @ $550K (cap hit $1.162M) - i think it would get rejected.
this would look like a one year deal and then retirement to me.

if it was $3M, $1.5M, $550K, $550K with a cap hit of $1.4M - it might pass

i don't think the arbitrator had a problem with how long kovi might play - only what $ he would actually play for at those ages - i can't think any players that played that long and took the league minimum for all of those years.

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 7:09 PM | Report abuse

Both the NHL and the NHLPA knew that this loophole was going to be closed in the next CBA anyway. All this does is stop teams from doing it until then which is a good thing. If this was allowed to continue for another offseason then when the loophole was changed there would be more players in this void of now illegal contracts that the league and NHLPA would have to figure out what to do with. Now there are only like 5-8 of these deals (Pronger doesn't count since he is a Over 35 contract and they are stuck with it if he retires). If there were 20 or more then this would have been an even bigger issue.

Posted by: icehammer97 | August 9, 2010 7:29 PM | Report abuse

Portion of arbitrator's decision - http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=330008 .

Posted by: zmega | August 9, 2010 7:33 PM | Report abuse

Several times, after Kovy rejected Atlanta's 12 yr/$101M offer, I posted that Kovy "would never again see $100M unless he went to the US Treasury to watch them print money."

How prescient that statement has become. :)

And, after sgm stated that "everyone who was anyone" said the league had no leg to stand on, it was only one person, and one person alone, nostrathomas, who said the Kovy deal had only a 20% chance to stand as is.

Amazing.

And now, a fresh prediction from your favorite soothsayer:

(I'll bet you are leaning forward to read.)

The league will not, will NOT I say, fine the Devils, or Kovy's agent, or take draft picks from the Devils over this.

As it is written, so it shall be.

"But, but, nostrathomas, if the arbitrator ruled for the league, surely they can fine the Devils."

Ha! So you think! But, to void the deal, the arbitrator need only rule that the "effect of the agreement" (the contract) would circumvent the intended purpose of the cap, whereas to fine anyone and have it hold under appeal the league would need that "smoking gun."

The league hasn't challenged the other deals (like Hossa) because they weren't 100% flagrant and victory wasn't all but assured (like in this case).

Perhaps I could tell you that Bettman consulted with nostrathomas before voiding the deal, but I'm forbidden from revealing such details.

And this prediction has just appeared in my ice chips:

George McPhee will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING tomorrow.

You all gasped at that one, didn't you, but it's TRUE!

signed,
knower of nothing; predictor of all:
nostrathomas

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 8:05 PM | Report abuse

BTW, if Recchi signed a 4-yr deal tomorrow, nobody would care, because he's over 35 and as such the full cap hit would happen if he played it out or not.

Kovy's deal was voided by the league and upheld by the arbitrator because it was a blatant, 100% attempt to circumvent. The other deals were only 95% blatant so the league didn't challenge.

The league didn't want to go to war unless they were certain they'd win.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 8:13 PM | Report abuse

George McPhee will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING tomorrow.

You all gasped at that one, didn't you, but it's TRUE!

signed,
knower of nothing; predictor of all:
nostrathomas

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 9, 2010 8:05 PM

i shall blame you for any and all gmgm bashing/love fests posts from now until there is a new post

Posted by: Capt_Kirk_in_AZ | August 9, 2010 8:14 PM | Report abuse

This is really unfortunate for Kovy. All his agent had to do was ask sgm to call Bettman. sgm would have explained to Bettman that the NHL had zero chance of winning the arbitration case. Hearing that from sgm, Bettman would have immediately run up the white flag on Kovy's appeal,and Kovy could have had his money.

Posted by: zmega | August 9, 2010 8:17 PM | Report abuse

laughing out loud!

Posted by: cstanton1 | August 9, 2010 8:54 PM | Report abuse

you guys are funny as "way lower purgatory" sometimes... (pretty sure the filter wont take the h word)...

Posted by: FrankM73 | August 9, 2010 9:13 PM | Report abuse

Oh Tom! LMFAO! Now I know that there are few completely sober moments in your life and for that I'm very glad!

BTW, when the ice chips show GMGM making a move will you please let us all know prior to it happening? Hey if all else fails you can start a website like Eklund! You've already been correct on more of your predictions for sure!

Posted by: pokerfaceI208 | August 9, 2010 9:37 PM | Report abuse

@zmega

I said "almost" no chance. Not "no chance". There is a difference.

I misjudged the ability of the NHLPA to get an arbitrator(which was not selected at the time of our discussion) who was not known as one who always sides with the leaague as Bloch is(Terrel Owens arbitration and his contract record)

I also thought the Pronger, Luongo, and Savard contracts were considered completed and precential and not still open to being rejected. This is from the arbitration:

"(23) It is true, as the Association observes, that the NHL has registered contracts with structures similar to the Kovalchuk SPC PA Exh. 8 reflects a list of 11 multi-year agreements, all of which involve players in their mid to late 30's and early 40's. Most of them reflect reasonably substantial "diveback" (salary reductions that extend over the "tails" of the Agreement). Of these, four such agreements, with players Chris Pronger, Marc Savard, Roberto Luongo, and Marian Hossa reflect provisions that are relatively more dramatic than the others. Each of these players will be 40 or over at the end of the contract term and each contract includes dramatic divebacks.

Pronger's annual salary, for example, drops from $4,000,000 to $525,000 at the point he is earning almost 97% of the total $34,450,000 salary. Roberto Luongo, with Vancouver, has a 12-year agreement that will end when he is 43. After averaging some $7,000,000 per year for the first 9 years of the Agreement, Luongo will receive an average of about 1.2 million during his last 3 years, amounting to some 5.7% of the total compensation during that time period. The apparent purpose of this evidence is to suggest that the League's concern is late blooming and/or inconsistent.

Several responses are in order: First, while the contracts have, in fact, been registered, their structure has not escaped League notice: those SPCs are being investigated currently with at least the possibility of a subsequent withdrawal of the registration."

If those comparables are also rejected that does change things as the relied precedent were actually rejected.

Now it will be intersting to see where the NHL proceeds from here.

Unfortunately for all NHL fans this looks like the start to more animosity between the NHL and NHLPA and another possible lockout in 2012-2013. It's unfortunate.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 9, 2010 11:56 PM | Report abuse

@captkirkinaz

I'm gonna' keep bashin' GMGM until they take Tarik's sorry puss off this site.
One last word on GMGM: Butch Cassidy !!
(Is BB the Sundance Kid ??)

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 10, 2010 12:04 AM | Report abuse

@captkirkinaz

I'm gonna' keep bashin' GMGM until they take Tarik's sorry puss off this site.
One last word on GMGM: Butch Cassidy !!
(Is BB the Sundance Kid ??)

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 10, 2010 12:05 AM | Report abuse

GMGM, get Mitchell !

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 10, 2010 12:08 AM | Report abuse

Incredible how empty it is in here tonight.

Amazingly, all those who declared "certain doom" for the league on the Kovy case are nowhere to be read.

Just so you all understand, the league doesn't make a penny over this. The players still get their percentage of the pie. Kovy making less means the other 700 players get fractionally more. (In Ovechkin's case, starting in 2012-13, with Kovy making 11.5 and cap hit of 6.0, it would have cost Alex roughly $30K/season, which is $5.5M divided by player's share of $1.65B/yr or 1/3rd of 1% of $9.5M.)

Now, next up on the new CBA, and you heard it here from nostrathomas ABSOLUTELY first:

Now, admit it, when you've read it, you heard it nowhere else...

For the next CBA, the owners will not only close the loophole on these front-loaded contracts but it will move to stop the waiving of players and sending them to the minors to avoid the cap hit. First we had Lamoriello doing this with Mogilny I believe. Recently we've had the Caps benefitting by getting Nylander's cap hit off the books. Now apparently the Hawks will do this trick with Huet. And, additionally, the Rangers are threatening to demote Wade Redden.

The idea when the league negotiated the cap was to fix the percentage of revenue they had to pay the players (and thus allow for fiscal control) and also keep a level playing field between the clubs. The scheme to put players on waivers and sent them to the AHL doesn't affect the revenue sharing amount the players get (again, guys like Ovechkin get less due to not only cap chicanery like Hossa but players waived and on LTIR as they all take up part of the players' share).

Example:

League revenue $3B
Players' percentage 54%
Players' share - $1.62B
If actual salaries equal $1.62B players get 100% of their contracts
If however actual salaries equal $1.7B due to $80M in guys waived to minors and front-loaded, cap circumventing contracts, players each get 95% of negotiated salaries (1.62/1.7).

For Ovechkin, this would cost him $45K.

Second, the ability of the "haves" to pay guys like Huet, Nylnader and Redden to not play lets the haves make mistakes and then essentially replace those players with others. So, the objrective to level the playing field is foiled to some degree by this tactic; therefore, just as the league has moved to stop the Kovy-type deals, I'd expect them to close the loophole and allow teams to waive players but be forced to absorb the cap hit. (Actually, the buyout was supposed to do this, but teams figured a way around that costs more in dollars paid but less in cap hit.)

So, you heard it here first, and when it comes to pass, you will gasp, wide eyed, and exclaim, "By God! Nostrathomas said that would happen!"

I came; I saw; I predicted.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 10, 2010 12:29 AM | Report abuse

Well, sgm showed up while I was typing my latest treatise. And, apparently, he posted some of the arbitrator's rationale.

Would be interesting to see if the league revokes registration on the Hossa contract.

Will they revoke the Hawks winning of the Cup?

sgm, I don't think this has anything to do with potential lockout. As long as the league proposes, in the next CBA, to give the players the same percentage of revenue, why do the players care? 54% of $3B is 54% of $3B. If actual salary payouts drop, the players actually get an increase in their negotiated salary. Ovi's $9.5M gets increased by 1, 2, 3% or whatever if that's the case.

If I'm the NHLPA, I fight for one thing and one thing only - to maintain that percentage at a time when TV contract revenue is all but certain to increase.

Ovi, under his current deal, could end up with take home pay before tax of $11-12M in 3-4 yrs.

You will say, "Who could possibly have foreseen this?"

Ahem - one of us has.

Posted by: tominsocal1 | August 10, 2010 12:42 AM | Report abuse

@tominsocal
OK, you are the man !(until cstanton rips you a new one. he's been killing you lately)

Posted by: Hunterforcoach | August 10, 2010 1:01 AM | Report abuse

I think hunterforcoach and cstanton are good twin/evil twin.

Posted by: nimrodrsp | August 10, 2010 7:06 AM | Report abuse

Can't NJ and Kovalchuck just go back to the table now and draw up a contract more similar to the exisitng loophole contracts?

If so, they could still end up saving $2-3 million in cap space which is still a huge advantage over teams that didn't take advantage of the loophole, e.g., the Caps.

$3 mil = approx. 5% of the cap = huge advantage

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 10, 2010 7:06 AM | Report abuse

@tominsocal1

I think that many players (and their agents) are going to feel very disgruntled by this decision and by the power of the NHL to pretty much do as they want.

I could see the NHLPA now fighting to remove the "spirit of the rule" clause(that will be a nice fight).

In addition,many players are going to be very unsettled by the now being unabile of to ever know if his contract will stand. To quote James Mirtle: "How can an agent and team negotiate a deal that doesn't circumvent the cap if what constitutes circumvention is unclear?"

The animosity will grow even deeper if the league revokes Luongo's, Pronger, or Savard's deal more than a year after those deals were signed and counted on by the player(i.e. purchasing homes, investments, whatever)

Posted by: sgm3 | August 10, 2010 7:40 AM | Report abuse

No way they revoke any of the older contracts such as Pronger, etc. This one just went beyond the realm of ridiculous I guess and I think Lou new that and was expecting this. I would think you will see an amended version of the contract in the next couple days more in line with the Pronger's and Hossa's of the world which the NHL will have no choice but to accept.

Posted by: PhilR | August 10, 2010 8:48 AM | Report abuse

@tmac2yao

Yes, the Devils could sign another contract more similar to the Hossa/Pronger/Luongo/Savard contracts and pretty much say to the NHL, "if you want to block this then you have to block all".

It would be very dangerous for the NHL to block any of the Hossa, Pronger, Luongo, or Savard contracts because of the possible legal ramifications.

Such as the NHL getting sued for damages because the extended, and unnecessary, delay(over 1 year) in voiding the contracts left the player unable to negotiate a new deal and the extended delay then led to a severe loss in compensation. That could get messy.

Posted by: sgm3 | August 10, 2010 8:52 AM | Report abuse

Wouldn't have been an issue if the players didnt cheat. Cheaters never win, or so I was told as a kid. Apparently they can win on occasion, but everyone knows they cheated (see Maradona for example).

I doubt they will go back and veto the other contracts, chalk it up to grandfather clause like. But all ones from now on, that are clear attempts at circumventing the cap, will get struck down. But if they do, so what. Adjust them slightly to make them legit/fair and be done with it. Cheaters never prosper. Unless you count the millions of dollars these cheaters are making, in which case, they prosper. Bleh.

Posted by: SeminAllOverTheIce | August 10, 2010 9:17 AM | Report abuse

@SeminAllOverTheIce

Tell that to the Blackhawks who just won a cup after manipulating the rules.

Posted by: tmac2yao | August 10, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Unlike the NFL, most draft picks after the 1st round either never make it to the NHL or are fringe players. McPhee has done pretty well with our No. 1's and we have some other prospects such as Johanson and Perrault who may be on the opening night roster. As evidenced by the trading of a No. 2 pick for a player who was here for two months, draft picks aren't that highly valued after the 1st round.

Posted by: wizfan89 | August 10, 2010 2:53 PM | Report abuse


vibram fivefingers hot sale. you will find vibram five fingers at our website.welcome to place an order of fivefingers shoes. http://www.shoeinstore.com

Posted by: 171718022 | August 11, 2010 7:39 AM | Report abuse

The comments to this entry are closed.

 
 
RSS Feed
Subscribe to The Post

© 2010 The Washington Post Company