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Explainer: How the Senate Rescue Bill Is Different

By Ben Pershing

Two days after the House failed to pass a financial rescue bill, sending the stock market into free fall, the Senate will take its own shot tonight by voting on a measure with extra sweeteners designed to attract additional votes.

The Senate bill encompasses the entire House bill, plus an attached "tax extender" measure as well as a proposal to increase the limits on bank deposits that are insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation from the current $100,000 to $250,000. Both Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Barack Obama (D-Ill.) have asked for the FDIC change, which is also popular with House Republicans.

As for the tax package, the Senate rescue bill will be coupled with the "Renewable Energy and Job Creation Act of 2008." The measure passed the House back in May and then passed the Senate in amended form last Tuesday. That Senate version will hitch a ride on the rescue bill tonight, and it includes extensions of expiriing business tax credits, tax incentives for clean energy production and a provision to prevent more taxpayers from being subject to the Alternative Minimum Tax.

A detailed summary of the bill can be found on the Finance Committee Web site, but here are the highlights:

• $18 billion in incentives for clean energy, including credits for production of wind, solar, biofuels and fuel-cell power as well as for "clean coal" and electric cars.

• An increase in the income threshold at which people are affected by the Alternative Minimum Tax. The AMT was originally designed to prevent the wealthy from avoiding paying taxes, but because it was not indexed to inflation, it has impacted an increasing number of middle-class taxpayers, so Congress has passed a series of "patches" to boost the threshold each year.

• Extensions and/or expansions of dozens of expiring tax credits for businesses and individuals, including for research and development, certain charitable contributions, investments in the District of Columbia, state and local sales taxes and school tuition payments.

• Tax breaks and incentives for businesses and individuals affected by Hurricane Ike as well as Midwestern floods and tornadoes.

The tax bill passed the Senate 93-2 last week, so it obviously has strong support there. It is also attractive to House Republicans, whose votes will be vital when that chamber takes up the rescue bill again, which could happen as soon as tomorrow. Republican leaders hope the addition of the extenders bill will give GOP lawmakers who voted no on the rescue bill Monday a plausible reason to change their vote.

But the measure could cause problems for House Democrats. The majority party is nominally committed to PAYGO, or "pay-as-you-go," budget rules, which mandate that any spending increase or tax cut be offset by a corresponding spending cut or tax increase. Democrats have sidestepped that rule frequently this Congress, but the Blue Dogs -- a coalition of conservative Democrats -- is particularly committed to PAYGO, and many of the group's members are opposed to the Senate tax bill because most of it is not offset.

Will that budgetary problem be enough to prompt some Blue Dogs to vote against the entire rescue bill the second time around? And would those opponents be offset by new Republican votes in favor of the package? House leaders are scrambling to figure out that calculus in the next 24 hours.

By Ben Pershing  |  October 1, 2008; 12:10 PM ET
Categories:  Agenda , Economy Watch , Senate  
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Next: How the Rescue Bill Politics Did (and Didn't) Change

Comments

Is there a "blue slip" problem with this approach by the Senate?

Posted by: JMD | October 1, 2008 2:35 PM | Report abuse

I sure hope they removed the provision that allowed securities to not be 'marked to the market' for valuation purposes. That would put our market credibility and transparency on a par with China.

Posted by: Mark in Spokane | October 1, 2008 4:11 PM | Report abuse

This is a bailout from hell! A "crap sandwich" is a good description. There has to be better "free market" solutions.We cannot let them ram this through.
The best ideas are coming from outside the two main parties. Bob Barr has been all over this from the start. He has some very good ideas for solutions. Check them out:
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/

Posted by: Texas T | October 1, 2008 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Cause and effect. My cat died today. Did that happen because the House didn't pass the bailout bill?

Someone couldn't get credit today? Is that because of the non passage of the BOB or is it because of years of deregulation, greed, etc...

Don't get scared. Don't panic.

DO NOT ACT IN PANIC.

We won't get fooled again.

Posted by: junglegym | October 1, 2008 7:24 PM | Report abuse

I cannot stand to hear one more word out of Dodd's mouth. Dick Durbin is talking now. Ohhhh, Dick.....you are caving. You caved.

Can't you all postpone your vote, to you know, deliberate some more, and do the people's business?

Posted by: junglegym | October 1, 2008 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Now Feinstein.

95,000 called her office from California.

85,000 opposed, and her explanation? "People do not understand it."

Wow, everyone BUT 10,000 didn't understand Senator Feinstein?

Keep whistling that tune.

Posted by: junglegym | October 1, 2008 7:30 PM | Report abuse

Obama is a traitor for supporting the bailout. He is supposed to be for the people, not the bailout of the rich and Wall street. He is a turn coat with Feinstein, sticking taxpayers now with $850 billion dollars, $150 billion dollars more than the House Bill!!!!

Posted by: Florida | October 1, 2008 8:24 PM | Report abuse

The Bailout and Us

Let’s say that I am of mixed feelings regarding this “bailout.” Wall Street wizards, overcompensated Chief Executive Officers created a problem that we, the taxpayers must resolve on our backs; passing the load unto our children.

We will be unable to solve our economic problems without job creation. A nation that does not manufacture goods is a “One Winged Bird”…..and I have yet to see one fly. Any bill coming out of Congress must contain a job creation feature. The Working Class must be put to work in high paying unionized jobs and the tax base of our nation must be expanded. Let’s not forget that it was the unions that created the American Middle Income group.

The Government should give away solar panels to all homeowners and tie them into the national grid. For the first three years, the homeowners will not see any remuneration until the cost of the panels and their installation have been paid back. The pay-back will be through free electricity received by the regional electric utilities. This would cut consumption of oil by thirty percent (30%) in five to ten years. This would also be coupled this with wind and hydroelectric power.

We could get hydroelectric plants built faster than nuclear reactors due to less legal maneuvering. We could demand that all vehicles built after 2015 be either hybrid or achieving no less than thirty miles per gallon in the city and forty on the highway. This would further reduce oil consumption by an additional twenty (20%) percent over the next seven years.

The “bailout” must also include protecting all homeowners facing foreclosure; ensuring that these homeowners do not lose their homes and stemming mass upheaval of working families. Any “bailout” that protects Wall Street must also protect working families who have been mandated to shoulder the cost burden.

Banks and other institutions that loan money to people that cannot afford to repay these loans must be held accountable for their actions. We cannot blame hard working families that tried to stretch their dollars for a better way of life. They were victims of the banking scam. It was intended to defraud them and they fell for it.

Funds should also be allocated to the re-building of housing stock in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast region to ensure the ability of the internally displaced citizens to be repatriated to their homes.

These are few of the necessary fixes that Congress must add to this “bail-out”.


F. Christophe Silvera, Secretary – Treasurer, International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Local #808 22-43 Jackson Avenue, Long Island City, NY 11101
Tel: 917-297-2241, blog: savukanow@blogspot.com

Posted by: F. Christophe Silvera | October 1, 2008 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: jud | October 1, 2008 9:47 PM | Report abuse

I tried to watch that little youtube thing. The music is so annoying and it seems BS-y in general.

That's an old canard about CRA and other groups that try to help low income people.

They aren't the cause. The cause is the lax banking practices with no regulation.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 1, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse


So...this little "rescue" bill is definitely going to fix things...right?

Oh yeah. UhHuh. Sure. Just you watch.

Posted by: T-Prop | October 2, 2008 12:25 AM | Report abuse

This is an outrage. The politicians are the real criminals and there is no one to make them obey the law, they'll just change the laws to suit them. These politicians are forming a social government. God help us.

Posted by: smeet | October 2, 2008 12:26 AM | Report abuse

Middle Class America just got the shaft. We need a 3rd Candidate for President. McCain & Obama kissed up to their rich buddies and sold the rest of us out. We (Middle class & Poor) pay the $700 Billion & get nothing, not even a kiss. Stand up anyone & run for President, you have my vote already. Where's Ralph Nader when we need him ?

Posted by: SadAmerican | October 2, 2008 12:27 AM | Report abuse

700+ bln - small patch it is, they still cannot monetize such amount (that would be money-printing our way into hyperinflation) - so they will borrow (in our name, as a claim on the American taxpayers' future labor). - From whom? In which form? On which terms?
still bipartisan cacata carta of a proposal - democracy in action - goes through under 100:1 against it in popular vote
If the inv bank system failed it may be temp replaced by a network of regional banks pending nationalization of banking - instead of this

Posted by: powerbar | October 2, 2008 12:28 AM | Report abuse

How can they even think of giving this money to the same people without regulations? They just hurt this country even more so when this money is gone what next?

Posted by: middle class mom | October 2, 2008 12:31 AM | Report abuse

I didn't see any mention of the extra powers arrogated to the Executive branch by this bill. While I could wish that this meant the offending provision had been removed. Unfortunately, Congress seems to have quite an appetite for converting this country to a dictatorship. Maybe it's because all the Senators think that they have a chance of becoming President some day.

Anyhow, I notice the feckless media putting the squeeze on conscientious representatives who wouldn't vote for this before because of its inflationary impact and its mockery of congressional power.

Face the music folks. The Dow is going to drop to 8000 or lower, bailout or no. So better not to have the bailout, and don't fall for post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies fed to you by an "independent" press that is wholly in the pocket of the Federal Mafia.

Posted by: Alan Lockett | October 2, 2008 12:32 AM | Report abuse

Extensions and/or expansions of dozens of expiring tax credits for businesses

and

Tax breaks and incentives for businesses and individuals affected by Hurricane Ike as well as Midwestern floods and tornadoes.

Breaks = Deductions. $500 = something like 12.00 Tax Credits are 1 for 1. If you owe $1,000 in taxes and have a $1,000 tax credit you owe nothing.. and they roll over year to year.

The real issue if the congress and senate are aged cronies looking at their own 401k's and retirement. they could care less what others think or feel.

The Scum has floated to the top of the US pond.

Posted by: Tom | October 2, 2008 12:34 AM | Report abuse

Posted by: junglegym | October 1, 2008 7:30 PM

"Now Feinstein.

95,000 called her office from California.

85,000 opposed, and her explanation? "People do not understand it."

==============================

Beautiful, Jungle.

Hey, these people in gummint are so superior to us lowly mouth-breathing serfs. Why, Look at the B$ they put out in their campaigns expecting us to uncritically lick it all up, panting.

We are privileged to give them our sweat and our toil.

Kick these clowns OUT.

Posted by: T-Prop | October 2, 2008 12:35 AM | Report abuse

"Obama is a traitor for supporting the bailout. He is supposed to be for the people, not the bailout of the rich and Wall street. He is a turn coat with Feinstein, sticking taxpayers now with $850 billion dollars, $150 billion dollars more than the House Bill!!!!" -- by: Florida

Agreed.

Posted by: Whys | October 2, 2008 12:37 AM | Report abuse

Conan O'Brian said it best, "A crap sandwhich with cheese."

Posted by: Whys | October 2, 2008 12:38 AM | Report abuse

I heard that Warren Buffet thinks this is a good plan, but I'd have a lot more confidence if it was him investing our money than Paulson.

Is there any way to draft him to run this? Maybe let him buy a 1% stake in it like he wanted. That would be 8.5 billion we wouldn't have to pay.

Posted by: JakeR | October 2, 2008 12:39 AM | Report abuse

This bailout will solve nothing. We need a new New Deal, not a crutch for corrupt corporations. We need new, clean energy and an improved infrastructure; health care and a renewed commitment to civil rights. We do not need ANWAR oil, foreign wars, and a new conquest of Africa. We certainly do not need warmonger McCain and that blowup doll Palin. We don't need Obama and his turncoat support for this awful appeasement of the ultra-wealthy. We need Ron Paul's ideas, Obama's charisma, and Kennedy's good looks and enthusiasm. Where is our real American Hero, anyway? Would the shadow powers ever allow such a person to rise? Are we truly doomed to kneel before the folly of the rich yet again, all for a few extra moments of decadence before the party's over?

Posted by: rockstardave | October 2, 2008 12:43 AM | Report abuse

I see real Traitors to our country.
I see people who deserve guantanamo bay.

The White house for Lies and deception to lead us into a pet war

The Seanate and congress for handing over all checks and balances lock step, violating the very standards they are supposed to protect in checks and balances

The Judiciary for being a puppet and firing AG's because they did not play proper politics.

and the Rapist profiteers. Realtors, Lenders, Stock market insiders and junk bonds, The Oil Barons who pushed food and the cost of goods up so fast we panicked and stopped buying stuff.. yea remember the $3-$4 a galon stopped all spending.

For the dictator we stand..

Posted by: Tom | October 2, 2008 12:45 AM | Report abuse

Won't this evil bill be helping every American with a 401k?

Posted by: ChrisGO | October 2, 2008 12:45 AM | Report abuse

"Won't this evil bill be helping every American with a 401k?"

Posted by: ChrisGO | October 2, 2008 12:45 AM

=========================

Please pass the Koolaid, Chris...

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 12:48 AM | Report abuse

"Won't this evil bill be helping every American with a 401k?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sure.. it will help people who have prefered stock.. wow not the general public.

It will help investors who can shift their portfolio. Not us suckers who our company gives us a choice of 7 or 8 investments

It will help milionaires and billionares who can ride and buy low to ride any gain up.

and as for making cares that get 30 mpg..
Thats insane when we already have made cars that get 70+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Lupo

But we must phase in any de-protection of oil..

Posted by: tom | October 2, 2008 12:52 AM | Report abuse

Looks like this is government of the Rich by the Rich 00
Of the Fed, By the Fed, for the poor (who will bear the burden).

I want to see Freddie and Fannie (and other greedy banks) execs get punished for all this.

Spend this trillion dollars to get some public works projects done and give the common honest man a stable job to pay his loans. Spend a few billion on finding alternative energy sources so we are not dependant on the crazy middle eastern dino juice to run our country.

Create opportunities for more small businesses create job and stop the walmarts from shipping everything to china.

Don't reward the bloody banks for not being able to stop their greed..

You are not fixing the cause.. but just treating the sympton.

Posted by: Just another conspiracy to give fed more powers.. Long live King Henry and his Chimp Ben | October 2, 2008 12:54 AM | Report abuse

Wake up America. We need to take swift action. The time has passed for us to trust our leaders to do the right thing in regards to the interest of the American people. Heads need to roll and fast. We have taken enough and I fear for my children. They are just starting out life and we are all in a mess. We can not stand idle by an watch the future of our children go down the tubes. Those that are accountable should be brought out into the light. The American people should not have to pay for someone else's evil. Our government or who ever is really running it has created this chaos. We are again are going to take it in the butt and allow them to take away more of our freedoms. How long will we have to bleed before we stop this madness. I had a dream last night that my great toe was infected badly. Some one told me that I had Osteomylitis (infected all the way into the bone). This is a very deep infection requiring an amputation. If it is not performed quick enough the whole body will become infected and will lead to death. I feel this dream is about the times we are in. We need to endure the pain of amputation in order to save the body. I will bare my share of the consequences for what is happening but we need to make our leaders and other involved in this scam of the American people accountable for this treason. A bail out is not the way to make the guilty pay for they evil. We should not put this on the backs of our children. Lets stop it now!!!

Posted by: A working mother | October 2, 2008 12:55 AM | Report abuse

Why everyone?

Stop now!

Listen..... Where is the harmony?

Do what you love....and the money will

come.

Trust your self...and talk to your

neighbor.

Do what you enjoy....and you will never

work another day.

Listen to your tempo.

Be you.

I'll be me.


Posted by: Me and You | October 2, 2008 12:56 AM | Report abuse

Why not give each citizen $2000-$8000 each and let them spend it as they see fit. This would be a more suitable solution. I never took out ridiculous loans or bailed on a bank. Why the hell am I being penalized? Giving money directly to these institutions is an unethical rip-off. This is bloody outrageous!

Posted by: Barry CONNOLLY | October 2, 2008 12:57 AM | Report abuse

And as the Roman elite wasted gold on luxury items and lavish parties, and no new income was flowing in, and unemployment was rising, and infrastructure was decaying, the empire began to crumble. Americans should set aside their arrogant vision of bringing about world peace for just a second and read some history. Might make us a lot safer than bombs over Baghdad. Do you think the Middle East needs our opinions on what will work long-term? Or how about China? Maybe we should be the audience in the lecture?

Posted by: Lucas | October 2, 2008 12:58 AM | Report abuse

You don't have to be a financial whiz to understand checks and balances.
The bailout might help the stock markets temporarily but as long as the same unsound busisnes practices...or should I say THIEFING CEOs and cooked books continue any money fed into the system right now would just be a temp. fix and the tax payers will end up footing the bill with no real long term relief.
In the end yours and my 401ks will still be effected. If not this year then the next. The market has to correct itself for the DEFLATION that is ongoing.
You buy your house for say 200k in 05 and in 08 your house is only worth 150k. That is deflation which was brought on by the Federal Reserve by continuing to lower the interest rate.
This disaster was brount on by the Federal Reserve, subprime lending, and corporate money funneling to CEOs.
If you don't stop the above..there is no solution regardless of the amount of money that is thrown at it.

Posted by: Tammie | October 2, 2008 12:59 AM | Report abuse

It's funny how we are always talking about not negotiating with terrorists. But yet we allow ourselves to fall victim to extortion and blackmail. Congress balks and the market immediately goes down. They reconsider and it's not the "end of the world " anymore. The day they started balking , Washington Mutual decides to go under. You think it is all a coincidence? It's like a spoiled brat doesn't get his way and starts crying " we'll stop lending".
If we give in to this do you honestly think it is going to stop?

Posted by: NCC1701A | October 2, 2008 12:59 AM | Report abuse

If it's not, I'd love to know why. This is an open invitation, not a challenge. I honestly don't know.

-------

I have no 401k. I'm too young, I have worked a bunch of crap jobs and not saved much over the few years I've working. But my parents (a state education employee and a printing press operator) have their retirement on the line seemingly. For instance, when Bear-Stearns was bailed out, it saved my mom a lot of money because of something to do with her 401k plan having a lot of their stock in it or something like that. I'm not an economist...

But if that is true, wouldn't that be a reason to help the banks. Does anybody know what happened the last time we had massive bank failure in America?

Posted by: ChrisGO | October 2, 2008 1:00 AM | Report abuse

The bank failures were a symptom. What ultimately was one of the root causes of the depression was that most of the wealth was concentrated in a small upper class. The vast middle class had little wealth. Credit helped for awhile. But eventually even though productivity was higher wages did not correspond and so the vast middle class couldn't buy anmore. Supply exceeded demand and it fell apart.
The point is wealth needs to be transferred to the middle class not the other way around. It will just make it worse later.

Posted by: NCC1701A | October 2, 2008 1:09 AM | Report abuse

I agree a bailout is completely against the free market system. I read about politicians saying their constituents were not complaining until they started losing in the stock market. Call me naive, but there is risk involved when it comes to investing. That would be like me asking the government for a handout because I lost $40k at the craps table this year. I hate to see the economy crumble, but a bailout would be unethical and Anti-American.

Posted by: schnealy | October 2, 2008 1:13 AM | Report abuse

Also, why is it that I never learned ANYTHING at all about fiscal responsibility, how to do my taxes, and what credit is during my public K-12 and university education? Not one dedicated class. And I went to a highly regarded high school, and ended up getting advanced degrees in science. Why is it that we have so little practical schooling? Maybe they should tie in an education component to the BOB that the CEOs should have to pay for out-of-(immensely large)pocket?

Posted by: Lucas | October 2, 2008 1:14 AM | Report abuse

Don't people understand. This is not just a bail out of the rich. In fact the rich stand to make a fortune, if the market falls. Working Americans will lose their homes, that will be bought for 20 cents on the dollar, to later be rented to them, or sold back when the economy improves. Small companies will be bought out at a fraction of value and small farms will be gobbled up because the farmers will not be able to borrow the money to continue to operate. I agree there needs to be serious controls on the corporate big shots that have been running things like a fox in the hen house; but lets not shoot ourselves for what the fox has done. Repair the damage and then place some serious controls on publicly held companies. The CEO's often appoint the board of directors, who then determine his salary and severance package. I'd sure like to be able to hire the people who determine my pay package. There need to be checks and balances.

Posted by: azjim | October 2, 2008 1:17 AM | Report abuse

Leaders Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid had the power as leaders to do something about America’s national financial crisis over their last couple of years in Congress. Bush is responsible for signing bills into law, but Pelosi and Reid have the responsibility to set the country's legislative agenda and provide leadership to pass financial institution laws and banking regulations, but they both ignored the looming loan crisis until the very last minute. They failed our nation big time and should resign.

The senators and House leaders on the senate and house banking committee's should also resign because they failed to take action, when they were fully aware the country would eventually face a liquidity and banking crisis. They failed the nation along with the rest of the senate and house that relies on their banking committee to hold hearings, write banking laws and provide legislative oversight of our banking institutions.

The leadership in the White House - Bush, Senate - Harry Reid, House - Nancy Pelosi, and both Democrats and Republican's on the banking committees have failed to provide leadership and foresight to protect and regulate our nations financial system and institutions. Over the years Greenspan warned them that the increasing national debt was unsustainable that could lead to a national financial crisis if other countries lose confidence in our financial system and stop buying our national debt.

Congress just continues to overspend the nations money, give political favors to financial company's that give them political contributions, and add billions of dollars of earmarks for unneeded pork projects and possible fraud.

Did Congress and Bush really think they could run up the national debt forever and the rest of the world would continue to finance all of the nation's debt with a falling dollar? What about worthless American housing loan securities that they bought that are now becoming worthless? No! Now the world is slowly stopping to buy our debt and our nation may go bankrupt. Our only solution is to print more money to make up the difference, only leading to a lower dollar. This in turn may require the fed to increase interest rates to a premium to eventually attract more foreigners to buy more of our risky national debt due to a declining dollar at the expense of our own economy.

Bush, Pelosi and Reid had the legislative and executive power to prevent this nation’s financial crisis but they simply ignored it until the nations financial institutions practically crashed.

Now all American's will suffer, but they will now just continue to blame each other or the other political party, when they were all to blame.

Bush, Reid and Pelosi should all leave office because they over time allowed the nation’s financial crisis to evolve and continue to get worse until it practically crashed, all on their watch as national leaders. There is a reason that both Bush and Congress have low national approval ratings, it is because they as leaders have failed to make America better over the years. When either Obama or McCain is elected, both Reid and Pelosi should step down so congress can start fresh with new House and Senate leadership, so congress once again can gain the confidence and approval of the American public.

The "time of change is now" and we need national leaders to put the "country first" over party politics’ and corporate political donations influences that have led the country to the biggest financial crisis since the great depression.

Posted by: Abe | October 2, 2008 1:18 AM | Report abuse

This bailout will solve nothing. We need a new New Deal, not a crutch for corrupt corporations. . . . We need Ron Paul's ideas, Obama's charisma, and Kennedy's good looks and enthusiasm.

Posted by: rockstardave | October 2, 2008 12:43 AM
=========================

Rockstardave, did you just associate the New Deal with Ron Paul? Because that's like associating the Great Society with Ronald Reagan. We might need some of Ron Paul's ideas, but those are pretty far from the New Deal.

Anyways, Congress can sweeten this bill as much as they want, but there should be no bailout for the bastards who got us into this mess in the first place. After all, if Wall Street figures out they can get a bailout whenever they lose enough money, what's to stop them from making the same mistakes in the future? If this bill passes, Wall Street will have no incentive to perform--they'll always be able count on taxpayers to stuff their wallets when those wallets start emptying. Just wait and see how much the secretary of the treasury asks for next time!

Posted by: Greg Hudson | October 2, 2008 1:20 AM | Report abuse

So, everyone suffers a lot for years to come EXCEPT our career politicians who oversaw this disaster. They continue to get their large salaries,numerous congressional perks (including free health care) lobbyist's kickbacks, leftover campaign funds, and speech fees. They have defaulted on creating a energy plan for 30 years now. Vote all incumbents out of office now, or drink your sour milk!

Posted by: Otto | October 2, 2008 1:20 AM | Report abuse

Nobody likes having to bail out the rich for gambling wildly with our money. However, the economy turns on credit availability, and as that dries up, it will affect everyone, not just the rich. The news today is that car sales have tanked. That is just a precursor to people in sales losing their jobs, not being able to pay their mortgages, buying less, others in retail losing their jobs, not being able to pay, and so on and so on. The only- ugly- solution is the bail out and then rewire this whole thing so that it cannot happen again. The alternative is hell for ordinary Americans who didn't cause the problem. I trust Obama to make the changes that will put regulation back in the market- I don't trust McCain one iota, since he is the one who took the regulations out. As far as a historic precedent, we had to do this same thing in the depression and it worked. Let's avoid a depression this time and then work together to get the people who caused this mess.

Posted by: Katharine | October 2, 2008 1:21 AM | Report abuse

They want you top buy. They want you to use as much credit as possible because that is how they make money. And they fabricate these ponzi schemes or bubbles and they get off at the top.
Investing should not be this much of a risk. These fluctuations are abnormal. The system is rigged and that's not fair or just.And that's why I think we can't give in and we have to take control.

Posted by: NCC`1701 | October 2, 2008 1:21 AM | Report abuse

Silk purse from sow's ear, right?

Here in Kentucky, we'd describe the Senate version of the bailout as painting stripes on an ol' mule to try to sell it as a zebra.

It's still a top-down "solution" when a bottom-up solution is in the American people's best interests.

Only Wall Street (and its friends in government) are going to profit from Paulson's scam. Period.

Posted by: Carmen Cameron | October 2, 2008 1:22 AM | Report abuse

I'm not sure how I feel about this "bailout" bill. I think most of the crashing is due comeuppance for the Wall Street fatcats that have played fast and loose with the rules for years, turned a blind eye to barely ethical lending practices, and have pushed for more and more deregulation so they could line their pockets before things went belly up.

Saying that - I can see the point of many in government that if they don't act, things might get worse for "main street americans". Maybe, maybe not, but if that's the case, then yeah - that explains all of the "well, we HAVE to do SOMETHING" we're hearing.

Personally, I think, we as a nation (individually and nationally) we have too much debt. A little "credit crunch" might be what we need to readjust our system of business.

One point that I think should be made, however - particularly to those going on and on about how angry people are that we are now having to bail out Wall Street because of the actions of these big companies - it's our fault too. We're the ones who kept electing people into the government who pushed through the deregulation and allowed the fiscal recklessness that got us to where we are.

Sure, we aren't the ones with the golden parachutes, and that sucks; but we haven't been paying attention to the actions of our government over the last several years when it comes to economic policy. We should have voted the crooks out of office, so they couldn't do favors for the crooks on Wall Street.

Posted by: K240 | October 2, 2008 1:26 AM | Report abuse

How is it that 80-90% of the People do not want this, yet our elected REPRESENTATIVES vote for this, brazenly against the will of the people?? I thought this was supposed to be a Democracy??

I think most of us know that not voting for this bailout means some hard times ahead, we are not as stupid as they would make us to be. But most of us would much rather deal with the fallout of predatory lending practices now than pass this problem on to our children.

This is turning into the Peoples Republic of the United States of America.

Posted by: stuman | October 2, 2008 1:30 AM | Report abuse

How can you write an article about the bailout bill and not mention that it is going to be bailing out foreign banks with our money. This bill is too important to let them Congress get away with doing it wrong. Insist them remove SEC 112.
SEC. 112. COORDINATION WITH FOREIGN AUTHORITIES AND CENTRAL BANKS

Posted by: Carri | October 2, 2008 1:32 AM | Report abuse

Lets take a moment to review this saving grace. O.K. now we vote;
#1 All Americans get shares of the companies we are bailing out
#2 ALL CEO,CFO,Congress are made to pick lettuce for a year in Yuma( for our salad)
#3 Banks must start paying 12% on every dollar in savings and can only charge 14% on loans
#4 All Mortgage companies employees that wrote crappy notes to anyone are deported to some third world country were they are forced to stand outside of a home depot and beg for work
#5 All wall street scum bags are now rounded up and forced to act as human oxen to grind our flour
#6 we hold a national lottery every year of which all Americans are included and the winners are the next years congress and president
SAD part is these stupid ideas are no worse than the crap they are trying to spoon feed us now

Posted by: jeff barron | October 2, 2008 1:32 AM | Report abuse

To Stuman
That is a really good question. Also why is the media not really representing the vast majorities will.

Posted by: NCC1701A | October 2, 2008 1:33 AM | Report abuse

Is there a provision that prevents stiffs from buying houses that the can't afford?

Posted by: Ed | October 2, 2008 1:35 AM | Report abuse

"serious controls on the corporate big shots that have been running things like a fox in the hen house; but lets not shoot ourselves for what the fox has done. "

The fox is in Congress, the fox is in the senate, the fox is in the white house.

Lets not suoot ourselves? You are a puppy being beaten by it's owner. You are a slave.

The only power you have is your own death and they limited that with Kavorkian too.

Everyone can be president, if you have millions to run.

The shot we have is the bullet to the head at the end of the line, as they resell our body parts (or kids futures)

Posted by: Tom | October 2, 2008 1:35 AM | Report abuse

"That Senate version will hitch a ride on the rescue bill tonight, and it includes extensions of expiriing business tax credits..."

...typo "expiiring" in paragraph 3.

Teehee.

Posted by: Dave | October 2, 2008 1:35 AM | Report abuse

Yep, it's a crap sandwich

Posted by: confused | October 2, 2008 1:37 AM | Report abuse

Either way we are screwed as a nation, We pay $700,000,000,000.00 or people lose jobs and retirees starve and lose pensions. We do not pay and We risk losing our economy and 401k's for a generation.

It now hurts when I sit down. does anyone know why?
Americans are going to be needing doughnut pillows for the foreseeable future.

Two doors one says: "Welcome to Socialism" The other says "Welcome to surfdom"

Funny how It took Wall Street to make America Socialist. After we won the cold war. How Ironic.

Now Where is my damn free Healthcare?

Posted by: hammer bangin' joe | October 2, 2008 1:37 AM | Report abuse

Of course, a tax extender measure. Thank you soooo much for writing this article, it's now completely clear.

Posted by: Al | October 2, 2008 1:38 AM | Report abuse

throw 'em all in jail...including our beloved congress

Posted by: the final horseman | October 2, 2008 1:43 AM | Report abuse

What the heck is going on with our government? The people clearly demand that this bill go away forever but they are pushing it to no end?

By the people for the people???

Posted by: Michael Ross | October 2, 2008 1:43 AM | Report abuse

"How is it that 80-90% of the People do not want this, yet our elected REPRESENTATIVES vote for this, brazenly against the will of the people??"
Posted by: stuman | October 2, 2008 1:30 AM
==============================

Very Good Question.

Posted by: T-Prop | October 2, 2008 1:44 AM | Report abuse

I don't believe anyone is a traitor for attempting to rescue a company who made poor financial decisions. Same thing happened to Crystler and the government bailed them out. All bail outs come with strings attached considering the tax payer is footing the bill. This doesn't mean the company isn't going to pay interest on what they borrowed. Maybe the tax payers should get a rebate from the interest borrowed to the company. In the end it is hard to believe the domino effect one company has on the whole financial sector. It sure does have a big impact on a lot of businesses.

Posted by: John | October 2, 2008 1:46 AM | Report abuse

Horrible. Just horrible. No way to play for the bill. This will saddle my children with debt for decades to come. This is a shareholder issue. Stop trying to bribe Congress. This is a double bail out measure and not a rescue. Most peoples that need rescues don't shot themselves in the foot with shoddy business practices.

Posted by: Scott Neuman | October 2, 2008 1:47 AM | Report abuse

Chancellor Merkel affirms that Germany, unlike her comatose democratic counterpart, would not issue a blank cheque for banks, “regardless of whether they behave in a responsible manner or not”.

Posted by: C Smith | October 2, 2008 1:48 AM | Report abuse

"Either way we are screwed as a nation, We pay 700,000,000,000.00 or people lose jobs and retirees starve and lose pensions. We do not pay and We risk losing our economy and 401k's for a generation."

Posted by: hammer bangin' joe | October 2, 2008 1:37 AM
===========================
Hammer Joe, don't want to be over cheerful, but there IS that third probability:

- We pony up seven bil;

- It all still goes bust.

Just watch.

Posted by: T-Prop | October 2, 2008 1:51 AM | Report abuse

So the old "spoonful of sugar will make the medicine go down" routine is the play of the Senate. My god, the Senate might as well act like the bill is an airplane and try to shove it down the throat of the House. Well, this is democracy in action I guess: a small kickback if you go along with the plan. I am sorry to say that this will probably be enough to persuade the House. You have to love amendments completely unrelated tacked onto the bills. The entire renewable energy was added like an earmark to bribe the House.

Posted by: Duke | October 2, 2008 1:51 AM | Report abuse

For John
Chrysler made something tangible. They created real wealth. These guys just manipulate paper. I don't think there is an easy solution that is not going to cause some pain. But I'd like to keep our money to help our people. I'd like it to be an American solution in the tradition of my parents and grandparents.

Posted by: NCC1701A | October 2, 2008 1:54 AM | Report abuse

"I don't believe anyone is a traitor for attempting to rescue a company who made poor financial decisions"

Lets see if we can find any historic paralells to this?

From 1925 to the 1930s, the German government evolved from a democracy to a de facto conservative-nationalist authoritarian state under President and war hero Paul von Hindenburg, who opposed the liberal democratic nature of the Weimar Republic and wanted to find a way to make Germany into an authoritarian state

The state was a major European power from the 1930s to the mid-1940s. Its historical significance lies mainly in its responsibility for escalating political tensions in Europe by its expansionist foreign policy which resulted in World War II.

On 30 January 1933 Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany by Hindenburg after attempts by General Kurt von Schleicher to form a viable government failed (the Machtergreifung). Von Schleicher was hoping he could control Hitler by becoming vice chancellor and also keeping the Nazis a minority in the cabinet. Hindenburg was put under pressure by Hitler through his son Oskar von Hindenburg, as well as intrigue from former Chancellor Franz von Papen, leader of the Catholic Centre Party following his collection of participating financial interests and his own ambitions to combat communism

The Enabling Act was passed in March 1933, with 444 votes, to the 94 of the remaining Social Democrats. The act gave the government (and thus effectively the Nazi Party) legislative powers and also authorized it to deviate from the provisions of the constitution for four years. In effect, Hitler had seized dictatorial powers.

Maybe exchange The Enabling Act with The Patriot Act?

No paralells here at all. I recind the question. *snaps my heels together*

Posted by: Tom | October 2, 2008 1:56 AM | Report abuse

It's been established that the poor are the ones who'll be holding the bag at the end of the raid.

Why then do the "sweeteners" not address the ones actually flitting the bill for this madness?

They all sat in their offices working out compromises for their own and their constituencies' own benefits- not the taxpayers'. And NOW it's going to pass?

"Tax breaks AND incentives" for "businesses and individuals" affected by Hurricane Ike? Oh, you mean like petroleum companies with facilities in the Gulf, who now cry every time it drizzles there?!?

I'm going to be sick.

Posted by: Saya | October 2, 2008 1:56 AM | Report abuse

Great comments. During the last six years, domestic nonfinancial debt has been rising faster than GDP. Much of it is highly leveraged. That means that any downturn could snowball into a major recession. That is the why the politicians are in such a panic.
The reason we are in this situation is that, over the last six years, the government printed, borrowed and spent too much money.
The solution is to lower our debt ratios, which may require a recession. The bailout bill, instead of lowering debt ratios, causes government to print, borrow and spend still more money, unprecedented amounts of money, and tries to get the private sector to go still deeper into debt. Does this make sense?
The bill may, or may not prevent a recession in the short run. That is all the politicians are interested in. Don't face up to reality. Just put off the day of reckoning for another month, six months, a year, as long as you can. But of course that makes the economy still more vulnerable and makes the crash, when it comes, still worse.
The House will likely vote on this bill sometime between now and the end of the week. Tell your representative to "just say no".

Posted by: Stefan Schreier | October 2, 2008 2:00 AM | Report abuse

"Will that budgetary problem be enough to prompt some Blue Dogs to vote against the entire rescue bill the second time around?"

======================
Go Blue Dogs.
======================

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 2:03 AM | Report abuse

Although I'm not a fan of Ron Paul's, I believe he described the situation best by stating (paraphrased) "it's like trying to put out a fire by giving the arsonist more matches and gasoline". I think time will prove him to be correct. Throwing money at a problem never solved anything......it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Looks like we're all out of geniuses.....heaven help us all!

Posted by: Will Stuhr | October 2, 2008 2:07 AM | Report abuse

Dump the 700 billion directly into the taxpayers lap. If we need to spend it to prop up the system lets invest in the people allow them to pay off these debts, those of use who haven't been drinking the financial kool-aid for the past ten + years would have money to spend and stimulate the econonmy. When you want to repair a house right you start at the foundation and work you way to the top. This proposal that Fienstien says we don't understand is just prolonging the inevitable.

Posted by: bigtom | October 2, 2008 2:12 AM | Report abuse

There are many problems with the bail out. 1. We cannot trust any of you because many of you continue to lie. Politicians are politically addicted to lying. So, there is no possible way we can know the truth regarding the bailout. To resolve lying addition, ban it. Any member that has been proven to lie must immediately be fired. 2. Political prostitution by special interest lobbyist. The resolution of lobbyists, ban it. Again fire all guilty members. 3. We demand open hearing sessions. After all we are supposed to lend the wealthy about one trillion and we cannot know the true facts. We are sure that you have nothing to hide from us, do you? 4. Foreclosures are the major problem, fix it. 5. The CEOs and top management are responsible for it. Fire them and make them pay severely for it in the name of justice. We the American people are also responsible for these economical crises. We continue to vote these deadbeats in. We do not demand term limits. My fellow Americans, please look at the devastating consequences we must endure if this bail out passes as is.

Posted by: Bob Vargas | October 2, 2008 2:22 AM | Report abuse

It's te "Emperor" George Bush and Darth Chaney. and yes the imperial Senate are just handing the powers over to the dark side.

Evil Jedi Mind trick they use, Fear is the enemy and the tool of the dark side.

Oh my, R2, the People are in the trash compactors.. I hear them screaming, shut down the communication and give me my banking funds!!

Meanwhile Jabba the hut The stock Brokers chuckle as people move mass funds in panic.. and still take a cut on every single tranaction.

Posted by: Tom | October 2, 2008 2:26 AM | Report abuse

I guess this is the part where we all save up a month's worth of groceries and take the whole month off. Let's see how much profit they can squeeze from 0!

Because that number represents the success factor of the bill being sent back to the House has at "fixing" something that should be taken out back and shot and cremated.

We shall begin again friends. Of course, we should all stop expecting the folks in guv'mint to do our thinking for us, and start getting a lot more wiser on economics, markets, and all the resources and logistics and networks and the inter-connectivity of all the above and of course the effect of the whole system upon our own decision-making.

I am in favor of a commonwealth credit economy. Each human gets a fixed annuity at a TBD rate multiplied by the average life expectancy of the gender of the individual in question in TBD area of space. Credit may be used to trade for goods and services or invested in pools, enter into loans. Access to annuity granted by parental consent or by age of majority. Access may be restricted by criminal or dishonest behavior. Annuity may be increased by investment in successful completion of training or education that enhances ones productivity. Of course, large-scale services will need to be contracted. The larger the scale, the more credit necessary. I would like for this to be a bottom-up solution, and I would like to get the whole continent and eventually, hopefully, South America in on this too.

If it does get really bad, things will get real local, real fast.

Posted by: Jason_Usborne | October 2, 2008 2:26 AM | Report abuse

I thought that "spending bills" were to originate in the House of Representatives, not the Senate. Oh... That's right it got changed under Reagan, as well as, Bank de-regulation !

Posted by: lee303 | October 2, 2008 2:28 AM | Report abuse

I'm surprised that a group of our Generals haven't gotten together to figure out a plan on marching into Washington DC to personally relieve our representatives and senators of their duties. It happens in lots of other countries!!

Posted by: Will Stuhr | October 2, 2008 2:31 AM | Report abuse

50% of Americans have solid jobs regardless, we will be fine, but not without conservation and sharing on a massive scale:
US could sell its gold, surplus ships, planes and lumber etc.. in tougher times. Buy the gold back in future.
The best banks will buy the weak banks. (Do NOT allow foreign investment.) No bank ever knew who I was or even asked- now very successful with no debt.
Bailout Fix: Govt loans directly to qualified people, business and farms based on need, success in business and lifestyle performance. Transactionreportsystem.com and similar tracking proceedures need to be employed in the future. It is not welfare, it is not socialism. It is the most perfect kind of bolstered free enterprise based on merit and skill.
It is just smart business. Eliminat some of the risk and waste.
Warren Buffet and Bill Gates: Please keep your money in America, we need it. The basic idea behind transactionreportsystem is the support and clarification of those entities that show reliability over time.
Lets hope the legislators are consulting with talent and brains - not money. I would finish the beginning transactionreportsystem.com myself IF I knew more about web design. For now it is just a proposal.
JW

Posted by: Time Out | October 2, 2008 2:34 AM | Report abuse

Yo lefties (and I am a fervent leftie) and non-Wall Street types (I am poor as s***)...so, this bailout bill is actually going to save our butts because we're the ones whose lives are tied up in banks (checking accounts, credit cards, etc.). If that collapses, the only people who will be doing okay are the a-holes on Wall Street. They're the only ones who will have enough money to get by (or get "buy," get it?) I hate Wall Street avarice as much as the next guy, but deregulation has caused a financial cancer. This bail-out-bill is bad news for sure...just like radiation and chemotherapy. (Going with the cancer metaphor) our economy is very sick, and the medicine we have to take is going to suck...

Posted by: Christopher | October 2, 2008 2:40 AM | Report abuse

good comments all... except poor abe...
blaming pelosi, reid...and bush is just a pen pusher... your comments are rudderless... so sad our culture has become so anesthestized... with bud of both kinds... or just give me more stuff...what do we expect...really.. cheers!

Posted by: shark | October 2, 2008 2:47 AM | Report abuse

calculus? WTF

learn math

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 2:48 AM | Report abuse

What really is the problem ... Bush / Cheney & all of their cabinet members and appointees are going to be out of office soon. Aren't they owed something for keeping us safe!!! I believe there are a few empty cells down in GITMO that we should certain insist that they occupy.... I hear that there are water attractions I'm sure they should experience as well!! It's the only right thing to do. I wish I had enough money to buy another six -pack ......

Posted by: Joe -Six- Pack | October 2, 2008 2:51 AM | Report abuse

Dear Senator Grassley,

I am deeply concerned about the provisions in the Bailoout bill, Sections 19 and 100, which state that homeowners assistance may include "Principal Write-downs".

This provision means that the gov't will purchase a mortgage with my tax money, and then write-down the principal balance, thus subsidizing other people's homes with my tax money.

THIS IS TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION, because you are taking my money and using it to provide for someone else specifically.

This is robbery.

You cannot penalize me for being a renter or a homeowner who has been prudent and thrifty and resisted the temptation to purchase an expensive home.

You cannot reward people who get too deep in credit and then face bakruptcy by taking my money and helping them pay their debt. That deprives me of my ability to purchase my own home, to pay for my children's college, to save for my retirement.

If principal is written-down, then these greedy consumers have succeeded in a coup d'etat wherein the state assists them in robbing me for their benefit.

I have no incentive to work if my money is going to be taken away and given to others.

I am outraged.

If you write down principal, then it means my tax dollars are paying for parts of these homes, it make those homes public property, it means I part own them and should retain the freedom to use these homes at my leisure. If I do not get these benefits, then you cannot write down these principal balances.

The consumers who "paid too much" for a home must live with the deal they struck. They must pay back their principal balance.

I believe it is fair to rewrite their mortgage into a 30 year fixed with a reasonable interest rate. Such an approach does not transfer my tax dollars into their home equity.

But to write down their principal balance is to transfer my money into their equity.

This is an outrage.

This provision must be removed from the bail-out bill. You are robbing hundreds of millions of people in order to benefit a small number of greedy consumers.

Posted by: Mike Rains | October 2, 2008 2:58 AM | Report abuse

If we do not give the $700B to the financial market. The stock market goes down only temporary. It will move up again over long time.

But if we give the $700B now then market will not go up but stay or slowly move down for a long period.

What is important is that if we do not give, the powers in Financial sector who fund most of our politicians and media and of course consumer lending will punish us, the normal people.

You only have 2 choice. Start a revolution against the whole system or just shut up and endure and continue do our job but at lower pay that is on par with our comepetitors in China. In 50 years from now maybe the powers will give us something of a better live under this trickling down capitalist economic system.

Personnally I am very glad a lot of my American friends have finally understood that Obama and McCain are the same. Not enough really but still a lot have understood who this Democrats and Republicans both are. Good start.

Posted by: Velshan | October 2, 2008 3:03 AM | Report abuse

Bush and Paulson and Bernanke and Congress have destoyed our economy.
Only Jesus can save our Economy now.
Let us pray:

"The fundamentals of our economy can be sound again. Please save us, Jesus, from those who have cheated the system and undermined our nation's liquidity."
Amen.
God Bless America.

Posted by: Tammy P. | October 2, 2008 3:05 AM | Report abuse

The bailout is finally something the liberal east coast, the left coast and the conservative middle of this country can agree on. We shouldn’t be bailing out the rich investment bankers. And we should be free-market capitalist, let the dead wood burn, baby burn. The socialist proved that government is a poor manager and allocater of capital. Why do we think that the US Federal government would manage capital better? They purchased $500 hammers and $1,000 toilet seats and now we are going to give them $700B to purchase financial instruments. Riiight!?

Posted by: Riiight | October 2, 2008 3:05 AM | Report abuse

First of all this is not a Wall Street Bailout Bill. This is concerning the C.R.A. approved by Clinton in the late 90's.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were mismanaged. Packaging bad mortgages and selling them to banks. In 2004 the Republican Party tried to put stronger regulations on it, but the Democrats believed they were doing just fine. While Raines was cooking the books at Fannie so he could get a bonus.

The only reason you believe it is a Wall Street Bailout is that it has to do with Credit.

Mr. Raines received in a little over 6 years over 90 Million dollars in salary and bonuses. And the following Senators lead the list by receiving campaign contributions.

1.Christopher Dodd
2.Barack Obama

Both Dodd and Barney Frank should be impeached and investigated. Raines should be in jail. And Raines is a financial advisor for Barack Obama.

Without this bailout you and I will be affected in many ways.

We all must investigate where this began before judging it as just a free ride for rich people.

Posted by: Bruce | October 2, 2008 3:06 AM | Report abuse

There is no difference between this bill and the house bill. Paulson still gets handed a blank check for $700 billion. No oversight. The senate just handed a lame duck bureaucrat $700 billion with no strings attached. He can spend it all on whatever he wants in the next two months.

These senators have just sold out there country for a few tax breaks. This senate should be known as the Judas senate. Unlike Judas they do not realize the enormity of their mistake.

Posted by: Southen Hoosier | October 2, 2008 3:09 AM | Report abuse

The SH** LIST

These are the Senators that are up for re-election in 2008 and voted for the bailout bill. For those that would like to vote for someone else this year, here are their names:

Alexander, Lamar- (R - TN)
Baucus, Max- (D - MT)
Chambliss, Saxby- (R - GA)
Coleman, Norm- (R - MN)
Collins, Susan M.- (R - ME)
Cornyn, John- (R - TX)
Craig, Larry E.- (R - ID)
Domenici, Pete V.- (R - NM)
Durbin, Richard- (D - IL)
Graham, Lindsey- (R - SC)
Hagel, Chuck- (R - NE)
Harkin, Tom- (D - IA)
Johnson, Tim- (D - SD)
Kerry, John F.- (D - MA)
Landrieu, Mary L.- (D - LA)
Lautenberg, Frank R.- (D - NJ)
Levin, Carl- (D - MI)
McConnell, Mitch- (R - KY)
Pryor, Mark L.- (D - AR)
Reed, Jack- (D - RI)
Rockefeller, John D., IV- (D - WV)
Sessions, Jeff- (R - AL)
Smith, Gordon H.- (R - OR)
Stevens, Ted- (R - AK)
Sununu, John E.- (R - NH)
Warner, John- (R - VA)

Posted by: jw360 | October 2, 2008 3:13 AM | Report abuse

Bruce Almighty has been drinking the kool-aid again.... To think that STUPID democrats could stop King George.... who for most of the past 8 years controlled every branch of goverment.... from scamming and swindling us out of our and our childrens birthright (the American Dream)... How naive... Or is GREED GOOD ??!!

Posted by: Joe- Six- Pack | October 2, 2008 3:17 AM | Report abuse

Dear Mike Raines,

you are absolutely right about the section 19 and 100 being similar to robbery. But you are totally wrong about the so called greedy consumers.

That consumer bought a house which he tought was the correct price. The companies that sold it to them also promised easy financing if he canot pay for a few months, with short term loans based on the same house. But today the value of house is down and all those promises has no meaning. That is why the consumer has given up and let in forclousre.

If the Government buy the house at higher value then what the buyer can pay or what the forclosure can achive then it is really wrong on the part of the Government.

The Government is not baling out the consumer here but actually those property developers and Financial Institutions which sold the houses for such high prices. The property developer already got his money from the financial institution. Now the Finnancial institution must forclosure and sell the property which would get them by current standards a very low price. It is this losses that the Government is trying to bailout.

If we allow market mechanism to work, only the Financial institutions and those who lend those financial institutions to play property game for high profits wil suffer. The normal consumer will actually gain in sort term and in long term.

But those who put in money with these financial institutions are very rich and very aggressive bastards who will not easily lose in any business. They wil fight. by bribing the senate, congress anyone to bail themselves out.

That is the truth.

Posted by: Velshan | October 2, 2008 3:19 AM | Report abuse

Easy fix....since small business accounts for the majority of our workforce and they provide the majority of the nations business sector, why would you not invest in their growth and security so they can create more jobs. Is it not obvious yet that big business....corporate giants are greedy and corrupt? Don't believe everything you read and see. Remember, the most effective sales tool is triggering emotion, fear and threat of survival.

Posted by: Ladycobra | October 2, 2008 3:34 AM | Report abuse

Rescue bill? When you commit a crime you are detained, put on trail, judged and sentenced accordingly. While you are being detained you can get "bailed" out.

When Wall Street commits a crime, you go straight to the bailout and skip everything else. And then your accomplices in Washington have the audacity to change the language and call it a "rescue" as if Wall Street is somehow the victim of circumstances!

Perpetuating a artificial housing boom and floating a credit market that has destroyed itself only stands to make things worse and devalue the dollar. Let free economics make the corrections - politicians just make it worse.

Posted by: B | October 2, 2008 3:38 AM | Report abuse

This new bill is like coating a rotten tomato with whipped cream and a cherry. The tomato underneath is still rotten no matter what the topping.

Posted by: Joe | October 2, 2008 3:44 AM | Report abuse

Dear Senator Grassley,

I am deeply concerned about the provisions in the Bailoout bill, Sections 109 and 110, which state that homeowners assistance may include "Principal Write-downs".

This provision means that the gov't will purchase a mortgage with my tax money, and then write-down the principal balance, thus subsidizing other people's homes with my tax money.

THIS IS TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION, because you are taking my money and using it to provide for someone else specifically.

This is robbery.

You cannot penalize me for being a renter or a homeowner who has been prudent and thrifty and resisted the temptation to purchase an expensive home.

You cannot reward people who get too deep in credit and then face bakruptcy by taking my money and helping them pay their debt. That deprives me of my ability to purchase my own home, to pay for my children's college, to save for my retirement.

If principal is written-down, then these greedy consumers have succeeded in a coup d'etat wherein the state assists them in robbing me for their benefit.

I have no incentive to work if my money is going to be taken away and given to others.

I am outraged.

If you write down principal, then it means my tax dollars are paying for parts of these homes, it make those homes public property, it means I part own them and should retain the freedom to use these homes at my leisure. If I do not get these benefits, then you cannot write down these principal balances.

The consumers who "paid too much" for a home must live with the deal they struck. They must pay back their principal balance.

I believe it is fair to rewrite their mortgage into a 30 year fixed with a reasonable interest rate. Such an approach does not transfer my tax dollars into their home equity.

But to write down their principal balance is to transfer my money into their equity.

This is an outrage.

This provision must be removed from the bail-out bill. You are robbing hundreds of millions of people in order to benefit a small number of greedy consumers.

Another alternative is to purchase the loans at a written-down amount from the banks. let the banks absorb the loss, because they are the ones responsible for loaning indescriminantly, for loaning against specualtive inflated house prices. The banks allowed appraisers to continually drive up home valuations and justify loaning too much money, let those banks suffer the losses to their bottom line and to their executive management. Do not make us taxpayers subsidize the profits of these bankers.

Posted by: Mike Rains | October 2, 2008 3:48 AM | Report abuse

Dear Velshan,

Incidentally, I incorrectly identified the sections as 19 and 100, that was a typo, the sections are actually 109 and 100.

I agree in principle with your response. But I differ in the opinion of responsibility of the consumers. People are not idiots. Anyone can perceive that the housing prices were speculative, and anyone can understand the risk of taking on a debt under circumstances of artifically low short-term payments and a huge balloon payment on the horizon. These consumers accepted that risk knowingly, because they wanted a luxurious home.

I certainly had the opportunity to do just that, but consciouly avoided doing so. I explained that to my children, that I was confronted with this decision. I understood that in a few years time there would be a glut of foreclosures, and I told my children "the whole country can't go bankrupt", so everyone will get to keep their assets and somehow the tax system will be used to offset it. I said that I am faced with the decision to get in on the debt side so that I am not ripped off later in order to "rescue" these people.

However, my endearment to my Eagle Scout laws,in this case law # 8 "to be thrifty" prevents me from doing just that.

And so now it comes to fruition. I am being robbed to pay for others to live in a luxurious home. Others will live in the lap of luxury at my expense.

These people are not victims, they are just as responsible, and they should suffer bankruptcy and/or the loss of the home that they cannot afford. It is unfair to take away my earnings and my ability to live in a home that I could otherwise afford because my money is being given to them.

Posted by: Mike Rains | October 2, 2008 3:58 AM | Report abuse

The principal write down is a good idea plus an afordable interest rate. It just needs to be balanced by a lein for a like amount against the equity when the property sells. It should be the lender that continues to carry the loan and not John or Jane Q Public. Money spent to keep people solvent is well spent if you implement some institutional oversight to minimize the problem in the future. The institutions that wrote the loan or aquired the loan should shoulder the majority of the burden of the principal write down. Keeping a loan active is much less of a burden on the economy then letting it foreclose and be sold for a huge loss for nearly everyone (read you and me if J Q Public ends up with the bad loans).

Posted by: KickMeAgain | October 2, 2008 4:00 AM | Report abuse

Car markets slumping didn't just crop up because of this financial crunch!!! The auto industry has been failing because of their dishonest, lazy, antiquated business models.

The automobile has changed little for over a century - they are still 4 wheeled, gas guzzling, inefficient forms of transportation that clog our streets and pollute our air - no wait a minute, the first cars Ford put out ran on bio-fuel that were to run on Ford's proposed ethanol economy! So actually we've regressed.

To Detroit, progress means redesigned headlights, new marketing schemes, and planned obsolescence to squeeze every dime out of consumers. That worked last century, but today if a company wants to stay alive it needs meaningful innovation.

Ask the movie and music industry what happens when you rehash the same formula over and over again in the face of a changing technological and demographic landscape. You lose billions in sales - their downfall must be part of the rejected bailout too even though it started 10 years ago ... right???

America needs to wake up, get the facts yourself - if you want to survive the last thing you should do is listen to the news or politicians!

Posted by: L | October 2, 2008 4:06 AM | Report abuse

You should always listen to your politicians and the news the trick is to know when to believe them. Always be informed.

Posted by: NotAlways | October 2, 2008 4:15 AM | Report abuse

Mike Rains,

That would be the only provision I'd agree with. Writing down home values should be the first priority. This bill isn't doing that. Bailing out Wall St for their foreclosures last priority. They caused this mess. They overinflated home prices. The banks should have worked with the homeowners instead of kicking them to the curb. They wouldn't have kept foreclosing on people if the didn't think they'd be bailed out. Just look how they reacted when Lehman Brothers wasn't bailed out. They expect to be bailed out. Luxorious homes? Maybe some people thought they'd get rich quick. Some people like me bought the most basic of the basic homes around. Nothing special and ended up losing more money in value than I'll probably ever be able to save in my lifetime. I've also heard that illegal immigrants were buying homes with fake social security numbers and simply walked away. A congressman on CSPAN was explaining this scam the other day. Apparently Realtors and Lenders were letting illegals use fake IDs the purchase homes. Hundreds of thousands did and simply walked away and moved back to Mexico. Makes me wonder if that's why CA, NV, AZ, and FL are the worst off in this foreclosure mess.

Posted by: jw360 | October 2, 2008 4:44 AM | Report abuse

I am, as a voter/taxpayer/parent/investor, currently Putting-Up or Shutting-Up. I have written (and sent) my senators/rep with my POSITIVE suggestions on ideas to keep everyone’s heads afloat without turning the country more socialist (heck feudal may start to be appropriate in some states) than it already is--staying dry is NOT an option folks!

Though I do NOT agree with the details of this bill, and do wish they would "keep it private" instead of getting government involved this deeply in the "solution", it irks me to see so many people from the neighbor to our "elected representatives" totally miss the fact that each and every American who has taken out a home loan or carried a balance on their credit card IS part of the cause of our wonderful situation today. Yes, there were predatory lenders (Sorry, am I the only one who actually reads contracts and asks questions before I sign?) and loose regulations (as an Investment Bank, I only have to report my losses if I notice them in time for my financials?!) as well as pressure from upstairs to make sure "every American has a home" (Gee, I am not that old and I was raised to 'Never live somewhere that costs more than 20-25% of your NET income'...why does that guy have a 300K home and a 1.5K/month GROSS paycheck?!). And yes, packaging concentrations of assets together without understanding the spider-web of risk was just silly; but the assets had to come from somewhere. So, while many sit on their couches talking about how this is the "fat-cats" just-desserts and it will "cost we taxpayers for ages", I am actually out here trying to DO something about it. Pick up a newspaper different than what you normally read, change the channel or heck, please go to the local library and study. Make informed and educated comments to your reps/senators (note I did NOT say leaders, I pay their salaries!!), please don't just sit their and whinge.

Concerned for the preservation of what used to be America's moral fiber and gumption.

M. writing from a cab

Posted by: Constructive Feedback to our Government (PUOSU) | October 2, 2008 4:54 AM | Report abuse

OUR BAIL OUT CRISIS WAS CAUSED BY A HANDFUL OF CORRUPT CONGRESSMEN AND A HANDFUL OF EQUALLY CORRUPT FANNIE MAE OFFICIALS WHO BOUGHT UP $7 TRILLION IN BAD DEBT IN ORDER TO PAD THE BOOKS AND COLLECT HUGE SALARY BONUSES FOR THEMSELVES.

HERE ARE THREE VIDEOS THOSE CORRUPT FANNIE MAE OFFICIALS & AT LEAST FIVE CORRUPT GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS DON'T WANT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO SEE:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMouthPeace


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2WKtp01yOw

Lets Make Them Famous. Will You Do Your Part And Pass These Videos Along To Everyone You Know?

Posted by: GeraldD | October 2, 2008 4:58 AM | Report abuse

I hope this awful creature of a bailout is voted into oblivion.

I don't doubt that the government needs to intervene to convert some of the bad mortgages into new money, which the banks can then lend. This is the point of the bailout, after all.

But there are two problems here.

First, the government is not allowing these institutions to go bankrupt, and then buying the assets. This approach would tend to reduce the cost of the assets to the government, and also give the government far more control over the failed institution (via the bankruptcy process). Executives making out like bandits would be far more difficult in this model as well. Bankruptcy is the capitalist punishment for stupidity, and, believe me, severe punishments must be meted out! No "sorry you poor $2 million executive...here, let me take those baaaad mortages here and give you a lolipop and a few million newly created dollars...now be a good boy next time" crap. WE WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE, UNDERSTAND?

The second problem was learned about way back in 1934, after the government devalued the dollar and flooded the banks with money. Just like a bailout. The problem? The banks STILL didn't lend. The depression still continued. Then they realized that, hey, the guy in the street needs spendable money in his pocket...he needs a job, and so forth. Otherwise, all that money will just sit there. And so the New Deal was born.

Until we are told about a possible new New Deal, and the need for one by these lying SOBs, we should do everything we can to make sure these ridiculous bailouts keep getting voted down.

Posted by: Roger Josek | October 2, 2008 5:41 AM | Report abuse

so the bale out is so important that if not done by friday the world will end that was last friday we are still here and you can still get a loan as long as you have good credit.the thing is how can anyone elect any one of these sell outs and its gets better the only way they passed it was not looking out for us but by adding pork for themselves they bought the vote anyone voting no got a nice peace of pork

Posted by: wtobias | October 2, 2008 6:04 AM | Report abuse

"85,000 opposed, and her (Senator Feinstein?) explanation? "People do not understand it."

I have to agree with her, people don't understand, they keep reelecting her.

Did I overlook something? Isn't there at least one posting on here supporting the bailout?

Posted by: Southern Hoosier | October 2, 2008 6:14 AM | Report abuse

Washington Shysters Strike Again!

Here's an idea. Vote out the incumbent House Rep and Senator. Do it regardless of party. Stop thinking "But my guy/gal is OK".
They're not OK. They're corrupt with an over inflated sense of power that only we, the voter, can beat down.
I assure you my friends (my friends) ridding ourselves of at least 50% of the incumbents in the house and 50% of the incumbent senators running this term will shake Washington to its core.
Unfortunately, we won't do it. Most people don't have the guts or moral fiber to be anything other than the partisan they are.
Still, I can hope. I'll be voting against every incumbent this November.
I'll vote for a Dem for the Senate and GOPer for the house.
I will practice the same in my local and state races.
Time to sweep out the trash.

Posted by: Hunter in Texas | October 2, 2008 7:18 AM | Report abuse

Look, folks: You DONT understand.

There HAD to be a rescue plan, in some form. This one protects the middle class and stimulates small business better than the last, and we WILL see some of the money come back from those mortgage assets.

Some of you don't realize the extent to which the credit crisis impacts normal folks, so you think this was a "bank bailout." Fine, but I have brother who finally got a new job after two years of searching, and then finally got his house sold after he was forced to relocate and his home sale might fall thru because the buyer's mortgage company can't lend the money because of current credit crisis.

It's not just that banks are crumbling -- there's a domino effect, hurting normal folks and the world economy.

If you UNDERSTOOD this, you wouldn't be crying "TRAITOR" at the Senators who did.

Posted by: SueP | October 2, 2008 7:48 AM | Report abuse

Well, it appears the Congress is going to take at least 800 billion dollars of our money to bail out their rich buddies. Both Presidential candidates are in on the take. So, here's a unique way to vote against this bill in a language every politician understands--stop paying your credit cards.

After all, the banks will surely get their money from you via this bail out. No sense paying them twice. Don't give them any more. Stash your money in a safe place and wait, because the next step the Fed will take is to shore up the dollar so the rich don't lose too much valuation--count on it. So, vote with your wallet and remember to vote against all the senators and representatives who voted to enslave you. But keep your money in your pocket, save it to give to your children who will need it worse than you once their future has been sold down the river by the Congress. This is the only protest you have left to you, and this is the most powerful message you can send.

Posted by: M.L. Bushman | October 2, 2008 7:51 AM | Report abuse

By the way, this "credit crisis" is a fabrication, a tool to herd us all into believing this bail out is the only acceptable course.

Banks are presently withholding credit from normal citizens to whom they would otherwise lend in order to facilitate this "crisis." Once the banks, most notably those of the Federal Reserve, get what they want via their courtesans in the US Congress, lending will resume as before. The banks could lend now, but that would be releasing the hostages--us--prematurely.

Don't ever think this isn't a scheme. It is. And our children and their children will pay for it with their lives.

Posted by: M.L. Bushman | October 2, 2008 8:06 AM | Report abuse

If 80-90% of the people are against this bail out (with or without sweetners) who are our representitives representing???? Surely not us little folks.

As ANONYMOUS so aptly put it the other day:
"blame it on the jews"

I almost fell off my chair! It was the best laugh I had had in a worrying time for the american people!

Posted by: LYNN PARKER | October 2, 2008 8:29 AM | Report abuse

If 80-90% of the people are against this bail out (with or without sweetners) who are our representitives representing???? Surely not us little folks.

As ANONYMOUS so aptly put it the other day:
"blame it on the jews"

I almost fell off my chair! It was the best laugh I had had in a worrying time for the american people!

Posted by: LYNN PARKER | October 2, 2008 8:31 AM | Report abuse

I took out two substantial loans this week at 5 and 5.5% interest with no problems and no headaches. Sorry but I won't shed a tear for those poor folks living beyond their means or a give a penny for those greedy bastards ready to make a nickle off folks with a penchant poor choices. Regardless of whether the eggheads say my motivations are purely out of spite for those evolutionally challenged, tough love serves its purpose.

Posted by: Uncle M | October 2, 2008 8:31 AM | Report abuse

GeraldD,

At most I'd say the underlying bad debt is around 1.3 trillion. It just snowballed. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water, securitization is not a bad thing in and of itself.

Posted by: Uncle M | October 2, 2008 8:38 AM | Report abuse

Get a LIST OF SENATORS who voted for this bailout and VOTE THEM OUT OF POWER. They are digging the hole deeper.

www.takebackthefed.com

Posted by: yard80197 | October 2, 2008 8:52 AM | Report abuse

Maybe Israel wants to drain the last drop while they still can. They're going to ride this gravy train right off a cliff.

Posted by: Israel | October 2, 2008 8:53 AM | Report abuse

Raising the FDIC insurance from $100,000 to $250,000 is supposed to "sweeten" the deal? I don't know about most amuricans, but I sure don't have $250,000 in my savings account!!!!
This does nothing for me.

Who is this for, the RICH?

Rob from the poor and give to the rich!

Posted by: yard80197 | October 2, 2008 8:55 AM | Report abuse

We, the working class have bailed out the Wall Street elite, have been gouged by the oil companies, and have had all of our good jobs exported now we are going to be gouged by taxes. We have broken the camels back. Take a look at this http://www.BuyMyHouseBeforeTheBankTakesIt.com ; this is the future for America’s working class.

Posted by: Economic Blunders | October 2, 2008 9:02 AM | Report abuse

I'd like to make the point that we are not going to make ANY money off of this deal. They are buying illiquid assets at inflated prices rather than stakes in the actual institutions. In fact, here is an excerpt from a recent SEC release:

“In a document on the matter, the SEC reaffirmed that management's internal assumptions can be used to measure fair value when relevant market evidence does not exist.”

If the assets were such a great deal at their current "fire sale" prices then companies that aren't struggling would be snatching them up. WE ARE GETTING HOSED!

One more thing about the current mess.
Credit contraction is exactly what this country needs. Do you need a new car? Save up and buy a Hyundai. Do you need money for college? Work a job and set up a payment plan. Do you want to buy a new house? TOO BAD, THEY ARE STILL 400,000$. Prices have to adjust negatively as a natural reaction to the ridiculous spike that has happened in the past few years. Not everyone "deserves" a house, just as not everyone "deserves" a Ferrari or "deserves" to go to college. Wage/Price ratio's have been skewed for far to long because of this credit bubble and now it's coming home to roost. MORE CREDIT MEANS MORE DRUGS FOR THE JUNKIE.

To people seeing their 401k's falling:

If you have so much invested in your 401k and are getting close to retirement, maybe you should adjust your portfolio to more stable investments. Even if you did lose, the stock market is not a bank, it's a casino. You make bets and you generally win but there is always the chance for loss. That is the gamble you take.


We need to reject this bill. It will be tough at first but people may actually start saving and living within there means.

Posted by: Chris | October 2, 2008 9:37 AM | Report abuse

I'd like to make the point that we are not going to make ANY money off of this deal. They are buying illiquid assets at inflated prices rather than stakes in the actual institutions. In fact, here is an excerpt from a recent SEC release:

“In a document on the matter, the SEC reaffirmed that management's internal assumptions can be used to measure fair value when relevant market evidence does not exist.”

If the assets were such a great deal at their current "fire sale" prices then companies that aren't struggling would be snatching them up. WE ARE GETTING HOSED!

One more thing about the current mess.
Credit contraction is exactly what this country needs. Do you need a new car? Save up and buy a Hyundai. Do you need money for college? Work a job and set up a payment plan. Do you want to buy a new house? TOO BAD, THEY ARE STILL 400,000$. Prices have to adjust negatively as a natural reaction to the ridiculous spike that has happened in the past few years. Not everyone "deserves" a house, just as not everyone "deserves" a Ferrari or "deserves" to go to college. Wage/Price ratio's have been skewed for far to long because of this credit bubble and now it's coming home to roost. MORE CREDIT MEANS MORE DRUGS FOR THE JUNKIE.

To people seeing their 401k's falling:

If you have so much invested in your 401k and are getting close to retirement, maybe you should adjust your portfolio to more stable investments. Even if you did lose, the stock market is not a bank, it's a casino. You make bets and you generally win but there is always the chance for loss. That is the gamble you take.


We need to reject this bill. It will be tough at first but people may actually start saving and living within there means.

Posted by: Chris | October 2, 2008 9:39 AM | Report abuse

This bailout is a B.O.M.B. (Bush-Obama-McCain-Bailout) from hell.

Only Bob Barr is talking sense about the bailout.

How come the Washington Post isn't pushing for Barr to be in the debates? America deserves to be able to vote for someone opposed to a bailout plan, but McCain, Obama and the media don't want us to have a choice.

Vote Barr to oppose the bailout.

Contact the media to demand that Barr be included in the debates.

Call your congressman to demand that he votes no on this new version of the bailout bill when it goes to the House.

Posted by: George Smithers | October 2, 2008 9:45 AM | Report abuse

There is a better solution.
All securities have a unique CUSIP number that identifies each without error. A reverse auction where one owner competes with others to sell thier asset can be held by the FDIC/Treasury/Fed for each number and, depending on how much spending is set for that day, the lowest offers will be accepted.
If an institutiuon (NO hedge funds!) needs CAPITAL, they can offer shares to the above or in the public markets like every other company.
Much better than this bloated, buy at any price $700 BILLION waste plus $150 BILLION more as 'sweeteners'.
Fire these legislators who have to have sweeteners/pork/some extra incentive to do what's right and urgent for our citizens and businesses.
Never, never, vote for an incumbent.

Posted by: bgreen2224 | October 2, 2008 9:56 AM | Report abuse

The government just kind of does its own thing now, doesn't it?

Posted by: The Government | October 2, 2008 10:06 AM | Report abuse

"Sweetener"? Is that another word for "bribe"?

Posted by: hc norway | October 2, 2008 10:08 AM | Report abuse

So the House bill died because it lacked pork? Let me try to understand this: our elected representaives show outrage at $700 billion funding; their reaction? Spend more money.

Was Rome like this prior to its collapse?

Posted by: Jobo | October 2, 2008 10:23 AM | Report abuse

I like many Americans feel I need to speak up against this legislative bill. We the MIDDLE CLASS Americans are disgusted with the way the American GOVERNMENT has driven our finances, our future, the future our our children and their children INTO THE GROUND by constantly stepping in to bail out the RICH. HELP THE AMERICANS that work hard and keep this country going. MIDDLE CLASS America is becoming an obsolete term because we are the ones who get stuck paying for all of the mistakes that the greedy make. High energy bills, high gas prices, my health insurance alone rises 9% for 2009 while my raise, BECAUSE OF YOU RUINING THE ECONOMY, will only be MAYBE 2%. How is that going to help me get ahead? This crisis is due to the greedy who took a chance to make all kinds of money at once and then never looked back. Why should the rest of us be punished? I dont trust one lawmaker in the United States anymore. NOT ONE. We dont' even know who to vote for. You're all dirty, liars and despite what you say about "helping the American People" and "helping us from going into recession and our economy going into crisis mode" you're only out for yourselves. Half of the stocks that have crashed, you have investments in, NOT US THE MIDDLE CLASS. We can barely save a buck, make minimum payments on our credit cards, and feed ourselves. If any laws should be passed it should be to PUNISH the CORPORATIONS that caused this mess and laws set into place so that shady, greedy practices cannot be adopted in the future. Then you need to tackle rising health costs and energy gosts, tackle education needs for our children, and tackle tactics that can help our economy stay strong during natural disasters, tackle the fact that my generation will retire with NO SOCIAL SECURITY when we're paying it out of our checks every pay. TACKLE THOSE ISSUES, not bailing out corporations, that screwed up, so that the stock you have invested in doesn't lose money. After all, this is what this is all about isn't it? Quit fighting everyone elses wars, and think about your own people for a change. What' sad, is as I type this, I still have no choices as an American. I can vote all day every day, and nothing will make a difference in this country. NOTHING. You have lost the faith of MANY, MANY Americans who count the most in this country, the ones that are the FOUNDATION of this country and that is MIDDLE AMERICA, which doesn't even exist anymore. It isn't like you give a damn anyway. My teenager cares more about what happens to EVERYONE in our country more than you people do. You just care about YOUR security.

Signed,

EXTREMELY ANGRY AMERICAN.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:54 AM | Report abuse

So.. We don't have ANYBODY to represent us.. What are WE, THE PEOPLE, going to do? Stop the credit cards, stop buying imported goods, stop getting in car credits every five years. Pay your CC and do not get in another one. If you are going to buy a house, buy it for the right price, if not, don't buy anything.. retire in Costa Rica, where your SS check is worth something.
How can we, tell them that the PARTY IS OVER?!!!
Ideas anyone?

Posted by: Rita | October 2, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

That does it. I'm writing in Ron Paul.

Posted by: M Rhodes | October 2, 2008 11:41 AM | Report abuse

Investing in education, R&D, infrastructure, tooling, and the means of production normally sustains economic growth into the future. Investing in the mortgage industry is like throwing newspaper in the fireplace. It will burn hot for about 15 seconds.

Posted by: THINK ABOUT IT | October 2, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

These financial organizations took investor's money in good faith and knowingly originated bad paper with the intent on selling it to suckers or dumping it onto the backs of the citizens. Most citizens are struggling to pay their loans and mortgages, and 75%+ of the sub-prime mortgages are performing also. Massive interest income is still flowing in, and responsible people can still get loans.

With bilked investors moving their cash to other markets, these financial organizations want more cash to originate more bad loans to people who should not be borrowing money. This minority of citizens that is addicted to credit and loans are like drug addicts. They need to live within their means and adjust their lifestyle, not look to the responsible majority to adjust their pocketbook for them. Enough is enough, turn off the tap!

Call your elected officials like I have been folks! Lets tell them they are out of a job if they do not stop this insane scam!

Posted by: Enough is enough! | October 2, 2008 11:58 AM | Report abuse

If at first you don't succeed... Re-Write, Lie, and entice the opposition with empty promises. That's politics I guess.

First of all...

http://www.naturalnews.com/024381.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/024353.html

Second...

How the same bill is all of a sudden more popular can be explained only by people's ability to ignore a previous negative connotation and consensus in congress, and associate the newly crafted positive notion of a "rescue" to the same horrible plan. Hold no one accountable, or all of us, those are our choices. Again, that's politics.

I like how the Washington Post refers to this next vote as the "second time around", at the very least I would expect a news organization to have the brains to count to THREE. This will be the THIRD house vote. Notice the PEOPLE's comments on the this article, almost Unanimously against it. What do the people know right?

Impeach Bush, I am done watching his mentally-deficient plans get bullied through congress. And forget waiting for him to be replaced, impeach him now, send the message that he is the world's all-time biggest failure.

Don't forget to write-in Ron Paul for president in November, you will watch his numbers soar if you inform others, he is the only man that can save this country. McCain and Obama may as well be sock puppets on Bush's filthy hands.

PS - I drink your milkshake... I drink it up.

Posted by: Daniel Plainview | October 2, 2008 12:00 PM | Report abuse

Not to worry. This bill is from the same folks that brought us the Patriot Act and Homeland Security.

Posted by: lastgryphon | October 2, 2008 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Thanks to the person who posted the statistics for the calls to the Feingold office in Cali, yes, that sounds very much like something that makes sense. 90% of the people in the country do not appear to understand basic finance. There was a piece in the WSJ yesterday pointing out a similar statistic for your government representatives Yes, 90% of them do not know the difference between commercial paper and printer copy paper. Trained in the humanities, creative writing and the law. All you need to do is watch Senator Dodd speak to the Senate last evening where he strayed off his beaten path into the common language of finance and proceeded to speak nonsense as he said that LIBOR had risen 400 percent overnight. Clearly, this verbose creative writer had no idea what he was saying. But, there it is on tape and no one points out the error. Cluelessness not the root of this problem, it is the fertilizer in the soil that allows the root to propagate. That is what needs to be addressed in the longer term once the situation is stabilized. Fortunately, for the nation, the Secretary of the Treasury does not need to go to Investopedia.com to understand what Libor is.
If you don't have a clue, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and get one before you spew your opinion of another clueless opinion.

Posted by: winston smith | October 2, 2008 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Yup,
The smell coming from Senate is unusually bad today.
Definitely a health hazard.
Let's see if Congress can match it on Friday.

Posted by: wardropper | October 2, 2008 12:44 PM | Report abuse

While we are complaining about bailing out "WALL STREET", our elected officials have passed a loan to the auto industry for $25B to convert factories to "green". This is specifically designed for the underwater US manufacturers and we are unlikely to see any of that money again.

Complaining about Wall Street bonuses?

Check out the golden parachutes for the execs at GM and Ford. There were NO clauses on that loan to restrict their pay packages. The company can go completely under and they will all receive millions

Posted by: NJ VOTER | October 2, 2008 12:53 PM | Report abuse

jobo asked:
Was Rome like this prior to its collapse?

100 percent.
We even have our own Neros, fiddling away like Paganinis:

Rovius et Foxius Newsicus.

Posted by: wardropper | October 2, 2008 12:53 PM | Report abuse

Funny the article doesn't mention the 6 million for wooden toy arrows. Exactly how is this supposed to increase tax payer confidence?

Posted by: RetCombatVet | October 2, 2008 1:06 PM | Report abuse

I'm glad one of my two Dem Senators voted against this bill.

But now will the Congressman from Seattle do the right thing and VOTE THIS DOWN?

You, Jim, I mean you. Sure, I've known you for nigh onto 20 years, and we go to the same parties - but we here in Seattle are asking you to JUST SAY NO!

Please, consider doing the correct thing, don't back the Bush Bailout Bill!

Posted by: Will in Seattle | October 2, 2008 1:34 PM | Report abuse

Or ... at the very least consider scaling it down.

Think about it - why are we buying the CDOs when we could spend one-eighth the money to buy out only the underlying US-only Residential-only mortgages - and only from US firms, not ones in the Bahamas or Cayman Islands, or UK/France - and then refi those who can prove income as fixed 30 year or 40 year mortgages?

Problem solved, the ultra-rich don't get richer, the American middle class gets saved, and the rest of the world can bail out their own firms!

Posted by: Will in Seattle | October 2, 2008 1:37 PM | Report abuse

I think that Everyone should go to http://www.votenic.com and see what America thinks.

Posted by: Brandon | October 2, 2008 2:27 PM | Report abuse

I'm an educated person who recently graduated from college. Yet, I really cannot say I understand this credit crisis / bailout bill. Here's what I do understand:

- People say this bill will put a huge burden on "our children" (which I believe includes my generation). What about this war we are in? What about the TRILLIONS of dollars we will spend in Iraq? Personally, given the choice, I'd rather spend MY money at HOME attempting to help a DOMESTIC problem.

- It was corporate america who had a hand in this credit crisis. But it was also the EVERYDAY person who bought homes they could not afford, spent money they did not have and let the fat coporate pigs exploit them. Corporate leaders were greedy, but so were the citizens who bought what they could not afford and got themselves into debt.

- The reason people went along with such horrbile lending practices is because most were not schooled in areas of finance. What we need in our K-12 educational system is more focus on the areas of life which we will encounter once we are out of our parents' shadow: financial responsibility, mortgages, interest rates, smart credit practices, saving, etc. I know I would certainly sign up for that class; as I said, even after reading up on this issue I still do not understand the complexities involved. That is not a good sign.

- The world, whether this bill passes or not, will not be ending anytime soon.

Posted by: Lara | October 2, 2008 3:54 PM | Report abuse

Yep, your friendly democrat controlled Senate has serviced you the taxpayers again. Here are a few of the gems that are in the Senate version. Lord knows what else. This is just from a once over.
These corrupt sleazy criminals ought to go to jail, and anyone voting because of the crisis scam ought to be turned out of office. There ought to be riots in the streets because of this chicanery.


What started as a three-page “blank check” request for $700 billion to buy “toxic” assets on Wall Street, has now passed the Senate as a 451-page pork-laden piece of detritus. Someone sifted through the table of contents for tax exemptions and picked out a few of his favorites:

Sec. 101: Extension of alternative minimum tax relief for nonrefundable personal credits.
Sec. 102: Extension of increased alternative minimum tax exemption amount.
Sec. 201: Deduction for state and local sales taxes.
Sec. 202: Deduction of qualified tuition and related expenses.
Sec. 203: Deduction for certain expenses of elementary and secondary school teachers.
Sec. 204: Additional standard deduction for real property taxes for nonitemizers.
Sec. 205: Tax-free distributions from individual retirement plans for charitable purposes.
Sec. 304: Extension of look-thru rule for related controlled foreign corporations.
Sec. 305: Extension of 15-year straight-line cost recovery for qualified leasehold improvements and qualified restaurant improvements; 15-year straight-line cost recovery for certain improvements to retail space.
Sec. 307: Basis adjustment to stock of S corporations making charitable contributions of property.
Sec. 308: Increase in limit on cover over of rum excise tax to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.
Sec. 309: Extension of economic development credit for American Samoa.
Sec. 310: Extension of mine rescue team training credit.
Sec. 311: Extension of election to expense advanced mine safety equipment.
Sec. 312: Deduction allowable with respect to income attributable to domestic production activities in Puerto Rico.
Sec. 314: Indian employment credit.
Sec. 315: Accelerated depreciation for business property on Indian reservations.
Sec. 316: Railroad track maintenance.
Sec. 317: Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility.
Sec. 318: Expensing of environmental remediation costs.
Sec. 319: Extension of work opportunity tax credit for Hurricane Katrina employees.
Sec. 320: Extension of increased rehabilitation credit for structures in the Gulf Opportunity Zone.
Sec. 321: Enhanced deduction for qualified computer contributions.
Sec. 322: Tax incentives for investment in the District of Columbia.
Sec. 323: Enhanced charitable deductions for contributions of food inventory.
Sec. 324: Extension of enhanced charitable deduction for contributions of book inventory.
Sec. 325: Extension and modification of duty suspension on wool products; wool research fund; wool duty refunds.
Sec. 401: Permanent authority for undercover operations [as related to tax provisions].
Sec. 402: Permanent authority for disclosure of information relating to terrorist activities [as related to tax provisions].
Sec. 501: $8,500 income threshold used to calculate refundable portion of child tax credit.
Sec. 502: Provisions related to film and television productions.
Sec. 503: Exemption from excise tax for certain wooden arrows designed for use by children.
Sec. 504: Income averaging for amounts received in connection with the Exxon Valdez litigation.
Sec. 505: Certain farming business machinery and equipment treated as five-year property.
Sec. 506: Modification of penalty on understatement of taxpayer’s liability by tax return preparer.
Sec. 601: Secure rural schools and community self-determination program.
Sec. 602: Transfer to abandoned mine reclamation fund.
Sec. 702: Temporary tax relief for areas damaged by 2008 Midwestern severe storms, tornados and flooding.
Sec. 704: Temporary tax-exempt bond financing and low-income housing tax relief for areas.
Sec. 709: Waiver of certain mortgage revenue bond requirements following federally declared disasters.
Sec. 710: Special depreciation allowance for qualified disaster property.
Sec. 711: Increased expensing for qualified disaster assistance property.

There is also a tax credit for businesses who pressure their employees to ride bicycles to work.
Seriously, did they think no one was going to read this thing? “Increase in limit on cover over of rum excise tax to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands”? “Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility”? “Extension and modification of duty suspension on wool products; wool research fund; wool duty refunds”?


These corrupt individuals are largely responsible fo the situation, and they ought to resign for the good of the nation.

Posted by: Larry G | October 2, 2008 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Answer me this. Why did it take months to pass a $300 billion dollar housing bailout bill A bill that is voluntary for banks to participate in, and comes with all kinds of qualifications for the homeowner, and banks would have to agree to write down a loan's principle to like 85% of the homes appraised value. It took months, was only going to help out a small percentage of homeowners in the long run. Wasn't going go cost the governement much of anything when it's all said and done. The bill was supposed to go into effect yesterday, and what Countrywide is telling me HUD isn't ready to begin the plan yet. So Banks and Wall St, get to unload all their bad foreclosure mortgages on the Govt, without question, without any qualifications. After they've deystroyed the hopes and dreams of milliions of Americans and they get a sweet deal from the Govt. and taxpayers to take care of their their bad mortgages. What about the bad mortgages of the people? $700 billion to infinity for Wall St. $0 for Main Street.

Posted by: jw360 | October 2, 2008 4:15 PM | Report abuse

This is the result of trickle down economics without regulation. It never did work and it never will. Sure it trickles...to off-shore jobs, off-shore banks, and to the richest of the rich. Where's the oversight in this bill? Why are there more tax breaks for businesses in this bill...they don't pay their fair share now. They also don't invest the money in this country which would create jobs and help us sustain a middle class. These decisions are being made because our politicians are bought-and-sold by corporate interests and their lobbiests. Although campaign funding reform isn't exactly the most exciting issue, it's really at the bottom of everything. If our politicians weren't beholden to the corporate interests, they might actually be able to do their jobs and represent the people of this country.

Posted by: SUEL | October 2, 2008 4:17 PM | Report abuse

I thought John McCain was going to veto pork barrell spending? Well guess what this bill contains pork barrell projects. I thought McCain was against that? Shouldn't he have voted against it until they took those items out?

Posted by: jw360 | October 2, 2008 4:36 PM | Report abuse

And do we really want this bill passing while Bush is still in office? Ever hear of a line item veto? Hmm let's see. Let's just cross out that part about writing down home values. And let's cross out the part about oversight. Ok bill is good now!

Posted by: jw360 | October 2, 2008 4:40 PM | Report abuse

There is one question, maybe one of you can answer. WHO DETERMINED THE AMOUNT THE BAILOUT WOULD COST AND HOW? Did someone just come up with a price that appeared in their mind? How does the public know just how much will be used for the buyout? We never know what the government does until after it is already done, therefore we have no saying in what they do. When the money is given to Congress, where does it all go? Many people believe it goes into the pockets of the Politicians, does it?

Posted by: Smaggie | October 2, 2008 4:47 PM | Report abuse

About 50% of people don't vote in elections. If we can increase the number of non-voters; then the government will have no choice, but to let people vote on real ISSUES, instead of what rich & powerful person can make decisions for them.

Posted by: Black Cat | October 2, 2008 5:03 PM | Report abuse

Smaggie,

Who knows what all goes on in Congress? They probably had to add the additional $150 billion onto the already enormous $700 billion bailout, because they have to work overtime. You don't expect them to work for free now do you? Aren't they supposed to be on vacation now for the rest of the year?

Posted by: jw360 | October 2, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

If this country needs a "bail out" shouldnt the people (CEOs & commpanies) that caused the situation be the ones to bail it out? I mean look at the big companies that have deleted jobs in this country in order to move the production lines into another country creating jobs there--of course they get to pay lower wages and do not have to pay the import taxes and they get huge tax breaks; not to mention the fact that most of the "commpanies" invovled are connected with the gas companies -- all of the automobile companies are a good example -- and as almost everyone knows the gas companies reported approximately 16 BILLION profit for one quarter and expect to exceed that with each new quarter. What, 16 BILLION is not enough profit? They also get tax relief/breaks each year!
Where is the money for the $777 billion going to come from? Well, I guess the people of this country will just have to suck it up and expect higher taxes. How much longer will it be before everyone is working to pay them for their job or to just pay their taxes?
The Government can not seem to find a way to tax the companies but have no problem taxing people or Social Security --by the way -- the money the people receiving Social Security are being double taxed. If you dont think so, look at it this way, they are getting money back from the Government that THEY paid in and have already paid taxes on while they were working. Double taxation for the common person, free ride for the billionairs -- makes sense -- but only if you happen to be one of the billionairs.
The people who work, pay their taxes, and obay the laws are being punished more every day. The judges of this country hand down light sentenses for the guilty or place them in prisons with "extras" like cable TV, computers and internet, give them a library next to none, a gym -- hell if they need to get into shape -- make them work -- the same with the CEOs of these damn companies who are ruining this country -- we had best look at Russia -- do we really want to follow that country's example?

Posted by: Woody Boydston | October 2, 2008 5:20 PM | Report abuse

We should not continue to condone corrupt and self-serving politicians. Vote them out! Politicians like Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Stevens are a disgrace!!! They are the ones who have diminished out great country because of their greed for money and power. They are the kind of corrupt politicians that create distrust of Congress in the common Americans. This corruption in politicians is contagious because we have similarly lost our trust in the media to report the truth to us (they are all biased)- trying to brainwash us toward WHO they want to support politically.

Vote! NOT according to what the media tells you. Vote according to what YOU want. We are the people. We are Americans.

Posted by: Vote | October 2, 2008 5:28 PM | Report abuse

NEWS FLASH!

According to Countrywide / Bank of America, the $300 billion dollar homeowner bailout bill (FHASecure refinanace program) has not been passed. It was supposed to go into effect yesterday. I called them about it, and they are saying the legislation has not yet been approved. They said someone still needs to pass it. I told them the President signed the bill, who else needs to pass it. They told me that they don't know. I asked to speak to a supervisor to ask her who else needs to approve the bill and was given a voice mail.

Posted by: jw360 | October 2, 2008 6:09 PM | Report abuse

Get a LIST OF SENATORS who voted for this bailout and VOTE THEM OUT OF POWER. They are digging the hole deeper.

go to www.takebackthefed.com

Posted by: yard80197 | October 2, 2008 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Staged "debate" dance now ready for 24/7 consumption -
Bailout Barack Obama w/partner Bailout John McCain.

Full-spectrum media suppression/distortion
target Ralph Nader and Ron Paul.

Your vote is your power,
they fear it, use it.

Posted by: Paul & Nader v Bailout! | October 2, 2008 7:28 PM | Report abuse

Some of this is happening because of the devalued dollar, cost of petroleum, etc. BUT one of the non-noted reason..
* To keep the Baby-Boomers in the work field, in order not to take out a lump sum to retire with soon. Everyone knows that this BIG generation of people was about to retire soon (and of course this now has to be postponed). Just think if this generation all started to retire and "withdraw". That's a whole lot of taxes no longer being collected. Longer working days and shorter retire days til death = more taxes being collected and less being paid out to this huge generation in our population.

Posted by: ABigConspiracy | October 2, 2008 7:37 PM | Report abuse

Alan L. great post at 12:32 a.m.

"Unfortunately, Congress seems to have quite an appetite for converting this country to a dictatorship."

Nailed it.

Man, there are a ton of comments here! I don't know if I can make my way through the rest of them.

If the Post reporters could, maybe they'd drop the new line: the calls are turning in favor of voting FOR the bailout.

Incredible.

Posted by: junglegym | October 2, 2008 7:45 PM | Report abuse

It's true.

The reporters tend to be left, and that is because their owners and managers are conservative, and they know that well-educated, liberally minded reporters are MORE apt to disseminate their ultimate goals which are conservative, serving the interests of the powerful.

Conservative commentators and reporters do not do as effective a job in getting through a conservative agenda. Imagine if ALL the media were like Fox. It just wouldn't work for the wealthiest 1%.

Posted by: junglegym | October 2, 2008 7:48 PM | Report abuse

I'm a poor student going to school while living in my car. Here's my $0.02 . I know that Wall Street and Corporate pigs that live by the Greed ethos. However, your typical "middle-class" is also to blame for all this mess. I saw these so-called middle-class members (income $40,000-150,000/yr) who were living way beyond their means. Habitual credit card users, people trying to flip houses (2-4) at a time, taking out equity, etc. So when it comes down to it yeah, trickle down economics worked. The GREED ethos of trickle down economics. So NO, I don't feel sorry for anyone in this mess who lived beyond their means. I don't care if you head Wall Street or are Head of a household in Suburbia. GREED is GREED. Hopefully Americans will again learn how to SAVE instead of SPEND (especially if we don't have the money to spend). Sometimes, all of us need a dose of strong medicine we might not like. Americans don't need a BAILOUT, we need a lesson on financial responsibility.

Posted by: Don'tJustBlameCorporate | October 2, 2008 8:03 PM | Report abuse

don'tjustblamecorporate - aGREED!

Posted by: junglegym | October 2, 2008 8:28 PM | Report abuse

Wow, this is an amazing discussion thread, I hope it is preserved for future historians who are researching what they might call "The Greatest Theft by a Government of All time".

It really enrages me that congresspeople will say " ... the people don't understand ...". Once can see from these readins that we, the people, are responsible and do understand. Saying we don't is just a cover up for the real reason 90% of us are against it, and that reason is "because it is wrong".

The most popular theme I glean from the postings so far is that the bailout should not result in rewarding anyone. Consumers who over-spent must pay their balances, any write-down must be at the expense of the Banks and not at the expense of the Tax Payer Money which funds the $700 BILLION money.

Let the bank executives suffer the losses, let the government consider buying their assets AFTER the bank goes under, when those assets can be bought at a reduced price. A move like that would reduce the principal balances at the expense of the bank.

This approach preserves the "natural law", meaning those who made imprudent decisions (being the Greedy Lenders and the Greedy Citizens who let themselves be exploited by speculating on continued over-inflation of house prices), those people bear the costs. Any money the gov't puts in it gets back with interest enough to cover the interest on the $700B we'll be adding to the National Debt.

If the govt pays full price for the mortgages and then writes down the principle, it means they are making each of us help buy some small number of idiots a luxurious home, depriving us of our money to raise our own families, pay for housing, and college, and food.

To use our tax dollars to buy *some* people a home is TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. In case you don't remember from grade-school History classes, "taxation without representation" was a major reason that our Founding Fathers revolted against the King of England.

So it's not just that I am greedy about my money. It is that is breaks our country's founding principles.

When my tax dollars build a road, I get to use it. When my tax dollars buy a fleet of Air Force jets, I am protected. And so on. But when my tax dollars buy someone else a house that's probably a better house than I will ever have, then that is robbery commited by the government.

The bailout could happen in a way that does not rip-off We The People, but of course it's not happenning that way. Instead, the bank executives continue to get their outrageous incomes, and profit from our tax money.

This is George Bush's fairwell gift to the ultra-rich who control are government. When in history has the congress ever voted AGAINST a popular vote that is in the 80% range?

Posted by: Mike Rains | October 2, 2008 8:39 PM | Report abuse

Bush/Cheney called 800 Battalions to harass Remaining House Members to Vote for Bailout Tomorrow!!

Just heard this - hot off the press at 9:30pm, Thursday night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will Bush/Cheney start WW III over this? We know they have been itching to start a war to counter/cancel November's elections so they can stay in power for the past year. Is this it?

The House members whom voted against are those who represent poor and low income areas throughout the country and areas that do not benefit from bailout. They are enough in numbers to make a difference in Monday's voting. Let's keep supporting them!!!

Pass this around to others so they know they have and are supported by the public!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 11:16 PM | Report abuse


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Posted by: David Plof | October 2, 2008 11:54 PM | Report abuse

For those that vote for this bill. Everyone will know your names and I'm going to help make them famous. You just gambled your political careers away. And John McCain I'm making you famous. You just voted for a bill that's full of pork and everyone should know it.

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 12:06 AM | Report abuse

The SH** LIST

These are the Senators that are up for re-election in 2008 and voted for the bailout bill. For those that would like to vote for someone else this year, here are their names:

Alexander, Lamar- (R - TN)
Baucus, Max- (D - MT)
Chambliss, Saxby- (R - GA)
Coleman, Norm- (R - MN)
Collins, Susan M.- (R - ME)
Cornyn, John- (R - TX)
Craig, Larry E.- (R - ID)
Domenici, Pete V.- (R - NM)
Durbin, Richard- (D - IL)
Graham, Lindsey- (R - SC)
Hagel, Chuck- (R - NE)
Harkin, Tom- (D - IA)
Kerry, John F.- (D - MA)
Landrieu, Mary L.- (D - LA)
Lautenberg, Frank R.- (D - NJ)
Levin, Carl- (D - MI)
McConnell, Mitch- (R - KY)
Pryor, Mark L.- (D - AR)
Reed, Jack- (D - RI)
Rockefeller, John D., IV- (D - WV)
Sessions, Jeff- (R - AL)
Smith, Gordon H.- (R - OR)
Stevens, Ted- (R - AK)
Sununu, John E.- (R - NH)
Warner, John- (R - VA)

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 12:08 AM | Report abuse

You know this is a bad bill if Larry Craig is voting for it. You can bet these guys are some of the most corrupt politicians of the bunch. Just look at who's on it. Rockefeller, Durbin, Kerry, Hagel, Sununu. Vote these guys out. Send a strong message to Congress we're not putting up with this anymore.

Yes, I even said John Kerry. Did you know John Kerry supported the Bush Line Item veto bill? Pretty much give the President to modify any bill however he wants. Are you serious? I guess the Skull and Crossbones guys really do stick together.

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 12:10 AM | Report abuse

Here how the bail-out will work, mathematically, in dollars.

Let us start with the premise that there are approximately $700 billion in sub-prime mortgage loans which are about to default. The government proposes to buy those assets with taxpayer money.

The theory is the govt won't foreclose, and the buyers will get "time" or whatever to pay off the house, meaning they pay principle and interest to the government.

The problem is, Sections 109 and 110, which provide for "writing down" the princple balances.

Here's where the math comes in.... ready?

There are approximately 135 million taxpayers, but 45 million of them do not pay taxes due to low wages, so that leaves 90 million taxpaying taxpayers.

There are approximately 50 million mortgages in the country, with about 2 million mortgages at-risk (per AP story week of 9/22/2008). $700 billion divided by 2 million = $350,000 per home.

So, if the gov't "writes down" 1/3rd of each mortgage, it means that portion of the mortgage is not paid back by the homeowner, which means that money comes from the rest of us tax-paying taxpayers.

Since the average mortage is #$75,000, that woudl be a $125,000 write-down. Multiplied by 2 million rescued mortgages, that's $250 billion in taxpayer doallars. $250 billion divided by 90 million taxpayers is about $26,000 each.

But the bankers get to keep all of their earnings, the tax payers are giving them shelter. This is Taxation Without Representation.

CONCLUSION:

WE CANNOT ALLOW THE BAIL-OUT TO "WRITE-DOWN" PRINCIPLE BALANCES, UNLESS IT IS THE BANKS WHICH ABSORB THOSE LOSSES.

Posted by: Mike Rains | October 3, 2008 12:14 AM | Report abuse

Mike Rains,

I don't see how you think this bill is going to write down the principles of 2 million at risk mortgages. That would be a much better bailout bill if that was the case, because it would be preventing more foreclosures and putting out the fire. This bill is going to absorb all the foreclosures the banks have on the books already. All home prices are coming down with or without this bill. That means Americans are going to be paying a big price for the banking systems relaxed rules. Home values are overinflated, because it was too easy to get the loans. That caused demand to skyrocket along with home prices. Smart and or lucky people have sold their homes prior to this bubble and getting out of the market and did alright. Everyone else? Prepare to lose alot of money. Yeah some just in value and some don't care that have their homes almost paid off anyway or have alot of equity. But for those that bought their first homes interest only, nothing down and lost 50% value for the home withing the last 4 or 5 years, have not missed any payments, didn't buy more than they could afford, now can't even sell their homes, unless the principle is written down. Only option is to live their for another 10 years and hope it goes back up, or foreclose. Those are the people that need bailed out, not Wall St.

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 12:33 AM | Report abuse

Mike Rains,

The problem with this bill is that by taking over the banks foreclosures it going to give them even less incentive into writing down the principles of these homes that are in trouble. They will simply allow even more homes to go into foreclosure and then maybe 6 months or so down the road, we'll be seeing another request for an additional 700 billion dollars to take care of even more foreclosures. Then home values of course will continue to drop. People will continue to lose equity, the economy will get even worse because people will have even less money to spend and so on. Instead the banks should hold on to the foreclosures themselves and sell them, while the goverment prevents even more foreclosures from happening and keep the people in their homes. This is the big flaw of this bill and really makes no sense why it's passing in this form. It needs to be directed at homeowners that are underwater and that's it. Then at least they can sell their homes, otherwise we're looking at foreclosure just so people can move. In order to make up the loss to taxpayers, then their should be some kind of penalty they should pay. Insurance policy like Republicans were saying. I don't know, something. But yes I do agree the banks should somehow end up paying for it, not taxpayers. How is the question.

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 12:47 AM | Report abuse

And here's another thought. If the government buys all these foreclosed homes from the banks and they don't sell, who is paying for the upkeep? The banks? I don't think so. If they are destroyed and need fixed up in order to sell who's going to pay for it? The Taxpayers that's who. If these foreclosures don't sell right away the governement will have lost more in upkeep of the homes than they are worth and will never recover taxpayer money. This is not the same situation the government is gettting into like the Chrysler Bailout where they made money. In my neighborhood there are homes that are available for a significant discount and have not sold for over a year or even two years. No joke. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep people in their homes? Maybe even put people back in their homes that were foreclosed on, because of being underwater. This plan stinks. There is are better alternatives and they know it. That's why over half of Congress voted against it. And now they are going to be for it, because it has some pork and a little horderv added on the side? Come on. This bill stunk from the beginnining and still is a stinking pile of Sh**.

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 1:13 AM | Report abuse

The MSN is now deploying notions like the calls are favoring the bailout supporters and phrases like “sweeteners” in order to seize control from the thousands if not millions of citizens who’ve been calling the Capitol in order to get “this thing” passed.

They are tired of the drama, of drama period. This past year has taken a heavy toll on those covering it, and perhaps like Congress, they want their break too.

We all like our little routine: we like to wake up in the morning and have a good idea of what will happen in the next x number of hours in order to get us out the door and on our way.

The reporters are no different.

However, the impact of this desire of theirs is quite huge, disproportionately so.

We have broken our routines by following this story as none before (not Obama, not Palin – gosh, who CARES about the silly VP debates? Two more irrelevant people never walked the planet IMO), and by calling and by surfing the net to find out what else we can do. Some have even made the time and effort to get out there and protest.

I’ll stop, because I hate to read long posts and others feel the same, too.

Posted by: junglegym | October 3, 2008 7:41 AM | Report abuse

Get rid of the pork in the bailout. Motorsports racing track facilities,Rum producers,Building renovating restaurants, Book donations. In the bailout why?

Posted by: xthat | October 3, 2008 11:11 AM | Report abuse

You guys are fools if you don't see what just happened.

We just made trillions of dollars off the Chinese.

Posted by: Otis | October 3, 2008 12:46 PM | Report abuse

REPEAL FINANCE MODERIZATION ACT
Subject: 1929 Glass-Steagall Act, 1989 RTC bail out, 1999 Long Term Capital Mgmt bailout, 2000 FSMA approval, 2008 wall street bail out

No one is questioning how the bad Real-estate paper got to the stock market or into banks or why this is not limited to continued Resolution Trust Corp type bailouts. Its time to discuss cause. "...the financial services modernization act that finally did away with the Glass-Steagall Act, the Depression-era law that limited the ability of banks, invenstment firms and insurance companies to enter one another's markets." page 198 "Age of Turbulence". Was this turning point/deregulation a mistake?
Banks made bad loans in a rust to get big enought to get bought by other banks, & other banks and other banks. The combined geed of mortgage sales has culminated to the point the all those bank mergers that brought great stock gains are now exposed. If mortgages were limited to nonstock companies (credit unions) and finance savings & loans, we would be limited to S&L failures & credit union failures. It would limit the greed effect.
Where is this proposal discussion in congress???

Sent to ABC news 10-2-08

Posted by: DAN BREWER | October 3, 2008 1:04 PM | Report abuse

jw360

Thanks for writing back.

All the people that bought homes during the "bubbe" are the ones that now owe more than their home is worth (it's caled being upside down).

Personally, I do not want the bail-out to happen. But I am assuming it is going to happen, because you can't stop the rich from wanting and taking all that money, with the help of their puppets a.k.a. congresspeople.

So, I am advocating that if we must have this rip-off bali-out, then the gov't should buy the mortgage at reducded rates, at tne sell-off value of the mortgage, making the banks take the loss in the difference in values. It was the banks faults for loaning too much money on over-valued homes, the banks fueled the fire, don't let them profit from it, make them absorb the losses.


Someone else earlier in this thread had the idea that we should wait until a bank "goes under", and then buy the mortgages at a very reduced rate. That would save the bank, and let the govt take the mortgages at fair-present values (not at over inflated balances), and make the bank take th elosses. It would mean we buy up only the loans that truly fail, and prevent banks from profitting from the bail-out. If we must do something, I would hope it would be more like this.

I have no pity for the 2 million greedy consumers who overspent. I drive past those same luxurious homes and wish one was mine, but I did not let greed make me get a negative-interest loan and all that because it is obvious that later when the house payment goes up 50% I would not be able to afford it. These people did it to themselves, let them enter bankruptcy if they must. Just like a person who runs up 10 credit cards on a buying spree, or anyone who mismanages their credit. If you don't make them suffer, then they and more people will do the same thing over and over.

Posted by: Mike Rains | October 3, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

Wow this explains alot:
"
In other words, with fewer foreclosures the value of mortgage-backed securities increase ? a big financial problem if you bet a few billion dollars that the value of mortgage-backed securities would fall.

We are now seeing complaints from hedge fund managers that their bets are being distorted by new foreclosure practices. One claim is that those who manage mortgage backed securities can manipulate outcomes by modifying mortgage agreements to avoid foreclosures and by taking other steps. In effect, hedge fund managers want lenders to return to the tougher and costlier practices of the past because saving the homes of people who have fallen on hard times is now reducing profits for billionaire hedge fund operators.
"

http://www.ourbroker.com/?p=2217

I think I'm finally understanding this now. Can anyone confirm this for me? Greedy billionaires on Wall St that are worried about their bets that MBS will go down in value, have been putting pressure on banks to not work out loans with people who got into sub-prime mortgages. The more mortgages that the banks let go into foreclosure the more these greedy Wall St guys are making, because they bet they would go down in value. If the bank works out these loans, these guys lose money. Alot of money. That's why so many banks are refusing to keep people in their homes. The FBI is involved now, as they should be. Because they are looking in to bribes or some kind of unethical profits being made by these billionaires and banks by manipulating the market. It's in the interest for banks to work out these loans with people, because they lose less money if they do, so it doesn't make sense why they are continuing to foreclose. That's why the bet down rule on Wall St is being talked about being abolished, because it's what's driving more foreclosures and therefore everyone's homes to drop in value. Thanks to corrupt, greedy billionaires on Wall St, everyone's home values are dropping and everyone is being kicked out of their homes.


So if the governement buys mortgage-backed securities then it would be in the taxpayer's interest to prevent foreclosures, because then they are worth more. So the government also buys at-risk mortgages and rewrites the loans and or writes down the principles and does what it takes to keep people in their homes. Then sells the new stable mortgage. This then increases the values of the MBSs and then they can be sold possibly at a profit? I hope this is what the plan is. Maybe this bill isn't so bad after all. I just wish the government would explain what exactly their plan is. The way it is now it sounds like the banks are underpressure to actually make a certain percentage of homes go into foreclosure for the sake of Wall St billionaires? Wow what a system we have.

What makes no sense to me is if it is in the lenders best interests to work out loans with people and keep them in their homes, then why aren't they doing this? They should know that foreclosures are killing their business, especially right now. They are sitting on the market and no one buys them. The more there are the worse it gets. The more money they lose. It would only make sense that somehow the lenders may actually be betting against MBSs too. The more foreclosures there are the more money they are making on their bets that the value of MBS will go down. If this is what has been going on then these people need to be sent to prison. This has to be illegal.

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 3:05 PM | Report abuse

Woman, 90, Shoots Self During Foreclosure Eviction -
Fannie Mae forgives loan for woman who shot herself

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/03/eviction.suicide.attempt/

Is this what we have to do in order to get the banks to write down our loan principles?

Posted by: jw360 | October 3, 2008 7:22 PM | Report abuse

I am confused. Doesn't the House have to pass financial bills first per the constitution? Are the House and Senate bills identical?

Posted by: BD | October 3, 2008 9:20 PM | Report abuse

THIS BAILOUT BILL IS NOT ABOUT AMERICAN BANKS OR ASSETS; IT IS A SELLOUT TO FOREIGN INVESTORS AND BANKS. THE TRUTH WAS OUTED ON KUDLOW'S 9/30 SHOW BY BRAD SHERMAN (D-CA) AND WILL BE UPDATED ON 10/4 TO INCLUDE THE EVENTS SURROUNDING THE PASSAGE OF THE BILL.

"Hundreds of billions of dollars are going to bail out FOREIGN INVESTORS. They know it, they demanded it, and the bill has been carefully written to make sure that can happen." - Brad Sherman , D-California.

The Bill says:

(9) TROUBLED ASSETS.—The term ‘‘troubled assets’’ means—

(A) residential or commercial mortgages and any securities, obligations, or other instruments that are based on or related to such mortgages, that in each case was originated or issued on or before March 14, 2008, the purchase of which the Secretary determines promotes financial market stability;

and (B) any other financial instrument that the Secretary, after consultation with the Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, determines the purchase of which is necessary to promote financial market stability, but only upon transmittal of such determination, in writing, to the appropriate committees of Congress.

Note carefully - there is no "Made in the USA" requirement, and nothing prohibits a non-US institution from "selling" a security to a US bank, which then immediately resells it to the TARP. Nor is there any provision to prevent Secretary Paulson from defining any other financial asset as "promoting financial market stability", and while he must notify Congress, they cannot block his purchase.

As for the Senators and Reps who voted for this bill - we'll soon have a "Hall of Shame" nametag gallery for you. America will not forget that you intentionally concealed a foreign declaration of economic warfare against the United States.

ALL 435 MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WERE FAXED THIS LETTER (10/2 11:14 AM); NO CONGRESSPERSON HAS AN EXCUSE FOR VOTING FOR THIS BILL GIVEN THAT IT IS DRIVEN BY FOREIGN EXTORTION, NOT MAIN STREET USA.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 6, 2008 9:27 AM | Report abuse

We (Middle class & Poor) pay the $700 Billion & get nothing.
Really? The top 1% of income earners pay 39.89% of the personal income tax paid to the federal government each year. The bottom 50%, they pay 2.99%
Know your facts.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 9, 2008 10:41 PM | Report abuse

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