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Posted at 10:43 AM ET, 05/17/2007

'Lost' Dueling Analyses: Greatest Hits

By Liz Kelly

washingtonpost.com movies editrix Jen Chaney and I overanalyze ABC's little freakshow for the second-to-last time in 2007 and have an epiphany of sorts. Warning: Spoilers ahead.


Missing from last night's episode: John Locke (Terry O'Quinn). (Photo courtesy ABC)

Liz: Since our purpose here is analysis, I think we need to start by acknowledging that last night's episode didn't provide us with much fodder for discussion. It was a good episode. Not great, but good. In some ways it reminded me of the Death to Poochies episode in that it seemed designed to pay off loyal viewers who have long griped about things like the absence of Rose and Bernard (they're back!) and the whereabouts of Vincent (he's back!) and Jack's backbone (it's back!). The rest of it was one long Valentine to Charlie. By the time we reached No. 1 on his "Greatist Hits" list, I was ready for some Dharma whiskey. What say you, Jen?

Jen: I agree to an extent. This episode struck me as mostly preamble to the big whopper of a finale next week, a big intake of breath before the writers exhale a bunch of revelations on us next week. At least, I hope that's what they do. I saw last night's episode as the Nick Hornby version of "Lost" -- dude makes a top five list and finds there may be new reason to live. I do disagree about there being little to analyze, though. We can always dig up something. In fact, I have a couple of things I want to discuss.

Liz: Luckily we'll have J. Wood with us next week to analyze that massive two-hour finale -- which producers promise will make us realize that the "Lost" house has many more rooms in it than previously thought -- titled "Through the Looking Glass." I'm hoping we can match each Lostie up with a character from "Alice in Wonderland." I think Hurley would make an excellent Cheshire cat.

You're right, though, there is plenty to analyze -- though much of what I'm concentrating on is what was absent from last night's show. For instance, are we to assume that John Locke spent the episode slowly bleeding to death in a fetid pit full of Dharma skeletons? And how I wish that the writers had lingered a bit more on the new dynamic emerging between Ben and Alex or revealed at least a bit more to us about the suddenly interesting Richard Alpert. (One reader in last week's comments wondered if perhaps Alpert and the other Dharma killers might be the survivors of the Black Rock pirate ship, for instance.)

Also, a totally irrelevant observation: I watched last night's episode in HD and, let me just say, that Michael Emerson (Ben) has got some set of piercing blue eyes. Wowee. Who knew?

Jen: Doesn't it change everything to watch "Lost" in HD? Seriously, it's life-altering. And surround sound will throw your universe askew even further. Re: John Locke -- I don't believe for a minute that he's slowly bleeding with that skeleton crew, partly because I read somewhere that next week's finale involves a showdown between Jack and Locke. Of course, that could all be hooey, but I'm still not buying that Locke bit it in such unceremonial fashion.

Here is what struck me about last night, and I'm still mulling this over in my head: The notion of time. It seems like there is a deja vu thing going on, or that time on the island is on a continuous loop. When Jack and Kate looked at each other last night and said: "Here we go again," that phrase seemed more important than just toss-away dialogue. The notion of history repeating itself certainly was a factor in the "Flashes Before Your Eyes" episode and even harkens back to the Hatch, when the numbers had to be entered every 108 minutes. It's been a recurring theme over and over again this season and throughout the entire series and ties back into the whole fountain of youth thing we discussed last week. If time starts over again, that might explain why some people on the island don't age, although I still can't figure out why some people are affected by that and not others (like Ben).

Liz: Hopefully we'll get some answers next week and this notion of a jacked up timeline would be handy to explain certain plot points like the seemingly ageless Alpert and much of Desmond's storyline, but as you say, some characters seem to be immune from the loop and fully at the mercy of time. We know that Ben has aged and, for some reason, is utterly fixated on fertility and youth. Why? Again, I'm hoping we get some answers next week.

And we may. Now that we have a definite ending date for the show, producers and writers can start planning how to tie everything up into a nice little package. Maybe I'm reaching here, but I was struck last night by the fact that Jack's hair was a good quarter inch longer than it was the previous week and that Juliet's hair was at least a few shades blonder. Both of those little details had me wondering if the episode was shot much more recently than the rest of the season we've been watching. Which, of course, led me to wonder if they've changed the course of the show a bit to accommodate for the new endgame.

By the way, last week's revealing, well-done episode didn't help at all with "Lost's" ratings doldrums and I read somewhere this week that when the show returns for season four -- in spring 2008 -- it may be back in an earlier timeslot.

Jen: Interesting point about Matthew Fox and Elizabeth Mitchell. Didn't notice that about the hair, but it's very possible they shot those bits recently. I also read that the show may be get an earlier timeslot come January; personally, I don't take the ratings stuff all that seriously because I don't think it accounts for the number of people recording the show on their DVRs. (This is something ABC suits have noted, I believe.) A lot of people record "Lost" to watch it later, especially because it airs at 10. Maybe moving it earlier will alleviate that to some degree.

Here's another funny detail I found interesting: When Bernard was engaging in target practice (yay to the return of Rose and Bernard!), Rose said something about him shooting pheasant in Montgomery County. Is it possible that Rose and Bernard are from Montgomery County, Maryland? If so, that would explain why I like them so much -- they're my neighbors. Seriously, if I go out to run errands this weekend and I run into Bernard at Congressional Plaza, my brain may explode all over Rockville Pike.

Liz: I caught that Montgomery County reference, too, though a quick scan reveals Montgomery counties in at least 18 states -- Rose may as well have said "Springfield," though I can totally see Rose and Bernard happily living in Takoma Park.

Let's talk about the Looking Glass. Who were those two armed women who rushed in to subdue Charlie? Are there clues to be found in the '70s Looking Glass hit "Brandy (You're a Fine Girl)?" Are they some kind of Benry fembots or yet another constituency on the island? Or, perhaps, comrades of Naomi's who also ejected from the downed helicopter?

Jen: True, there are many Montgomery Counties. The one in Maryland probably boasts the fewest pheasant hunters per square mile. I just like the ideas of running into Rose and Bernard at White Flint Mall, arguing over how long it makes sense to wait for a table at the Cheesecake Factory. (Answer: No more than two minutes.)

I don't know what to make of the two fembots. I'm thinking they may be in cahoots with Ben since, based on Juliet's comments about the Looking Glass station, he has discouraged people from venturing there. Speaking of that, I was amazed that Sayid was so dismissive of Jack's question about how the station could be blocking the signal if it's badly damaged and partially flooded. Sayid said that question was irrelevant, but it was completely relevant. Why should anyone take Ben's word that the signal is being jammed? That guy bends the truth more than Orlando Bloom does when he's trying to convince people "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End" will actually be a good movie.

Liz: Hey, nice reference to the real world, but let's keep that sort of thing to a minimum before I start likening the island to life inside the Beltway (though one could argue that time stands still here, too). Maybe the "Alice in Wonderland" tie-in is meant to introduce the idea of the island being some kind of parallel world (similar to the idea in the Stephen King/Peter Straub novel "The Talisman." Oh, by the way, the main character's name in that book? "Jack Sawyer.")

I'm finding my mind drifting away from any questions raised in last night's episode to ponder the answers I hope to get in next week's finale. Here are the five questions I think we should reasonably expect to see answered:

1. What is Penny up to? I won't lie -- the press release lists her as guest-starring on the episode so we know she'll surface in some capacity. Has she made any progress in locating Desmond?

2. Is Locke alive?

3. Who is Richard Alpert, really?

4. Is Kate pregnant?

5. Is there really a ship, as Naomi says, 80 miles off the island?

Jen: I think that list of five questions is solid. I would add a sixth, bonus question: What's the deal with Jacob? Now, I don't think they're going to tell us the answer to that, but Lindelof and Cuse said in this week's podcast that Jacob will be a major focus of season four, so I think they'll set us up for that. I'll say this: There had better be a Holy Moses! moment in the finale. I am craving one of those in a big way.

Liz: Same. Though now I'm kind of binging on this "Talisman" tie-in idea. From Wikipedia:

The premise of the novel involves the existence of a parallel world to Earth, called 'The Territories' (a strange fantasy world with ties to King's The Dark Tower). Individuals in the Territories have "twinners," or parallel individuals, in our world. Twinners' births, deaths, and (it is intimated) other major life events are usually paralleled, but in rare instances (such as Jack Sawyer's), a person may die in one world but not the other, making them a "single" and giving them the ability to switch back and forth between the two worlds if taught how."

Jen: Okay, what you just wrote about "The Talisman" may have been a Holy Moses! moment. That would explain so much about "Lost," and also why Jacob looked like Locke. I swear, watch it in slo-mo, he really does. And Doc Jensen said the same thing in his EW analysis last week, which therefore gives it validity. Or proves that we're both nuts, one of the two. Man, I have to read "The Talisman" now, I'm checking to see if the good ol' Montgomery County library has a copy available as soon as we finish chatting.

Obviously this week's Celebritology chat (today at 2 p.m. ET) won't be nearly as fun without Liz, but I'll do my best to make it a mildly amusing adventure. All we're doing is talking "Lost," kids, so bring your crazy theories and cockamamie predictions to the table. I'm also hoping someone can tell me why the British characters on the show always have to use such cliche Briticisms. Do real people in the U.K. really say "sodding" that often, or still refer to women as "birds"?

Next Week: "Through the Looking Glass" -- Jack and the castaways begin their efforts to make contact with Naomi's rescue ship.

By Liz Kelly  | May 17, 2007; 10:43 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

I'm sorry, but I thought this episode was the dullest all season. The ending with the James-Bond gun gals was intriguing, but otherwise there was nothing there.
What do people see in Rose and Bernard? Now that they're back, I wish they'd leave. I'd think they need they're own sitcom.
One question: What the hell was Alex doing to that Rabbit? If she and Carl were going to eat that, it's the strangest recipe I've ever seen.
Anyway, can't wait - looking forward to next week. And after that, to getting a life for a few months...

Posted by: Hungover | May 17, 2007 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Nestor Carbonell (who plays Alpert) is listed in the cast for next season's CBS drama Cane, which stars Jimmy Smits.

Posted by: Cosmo | May 17, 2007 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Jen, do you know if the season finale will be available on abc.com after it airs next Wednesday? I will have family in town and might miss the show, and we do not have TIVO (ack!).
THANKS!

Posted by: DKG | May 17, 2007 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Was it me or was Ben walking with his cane and more of a limp this week than he was at the end of last week's episode? I think having John around made him heal faster and I thought I remembered him not having the cane at the end of last week. With John not around him, will he slowly be degenerating back into a fragile state? I still think Locke is alive (he was shot in the vicinity of his left kidney that was given to Anthony Cooper), Ben is weakening, Locke assumes control of the others, and Jack and Locke battle it out in the finale.

Posted by: Dan | May 17, 2007 11:30 AM | Report abuse

I don't know why Jen doesn't take the ratings thing all that seriously, there are a ton of people out there have just lost patience with the show, plus, having a lot of people record the show on DVR's doesn't really count anyway, since only viewers who actually watch the ads matter to the network.

As to the schedule change, if Lost goes back to an earlier time, I probably won't be able to watch it since my kids are still awake and they're too young to watch the show.

I actually kind of enjoyed this week, even though I don't generally like Charlie, pretty well done, I thought.

Posted by: Chris | May 17, 2007 11:34 AM | Report abuse

What if the women in the looking glass are women who "died" giving birth on the island. Remember the dying women were taken to a "special" room. Maybe the whole women dying thing is just somehting that ben conjured up! Or maybe it's just somehting that i conjured up! Please give me some feedback people!

Posted by: Heather | May 17, 2007 11:38 AM | Report abuse

henry's not the only one with the bright blue eyes. watching on an old tv with rabbit ears, my girlfriend and i noticed henry, alex, charlie and claire all have eyes as clear and blue as the water above the looking glass. there's probably a new theory in there somewhere.

Posted by: jorduroy | May 17, 2007 11:38 AM | Report abuse

Was it just me, or did Hurley look a little bigger than ever...and a little more in slow mo? That was the cutest thing I've ever seen when he said "yeah, whatever, love you too". sigh...love my losties.

Posted by: Kate is Preggars | May 17, 2007 11:39 AM | Report abuse

Was it just me, or did Hurley look a little bigger than ever...and a little more in slow mo? That was the cutest thing I've ever seen when he said "yeah, whatever, love you too". sigh...love my losties.

Posted by: Kate is Preggars | May 17, 2007 11:39 AM | Report abuse

Was it just me, or did Hurley look a little bigger than ever...and a little more in slow mo? That was the cutest thing I've ever seen when he said "yeah, whatever, love you too". sigh...love my losties.

Posted by: Kate is Preggars | May 17, 2007 11:39 AM | Report abuse

I spent 4 months living in Cheshire England (halfway between Manchester and Liverpool) back in 2003; and I can assure both Jen and Liz, that the Brits do in fact talk that way. The only thing that would make the show more accurate to the UK culture would be to have Charlie and Naomi have a few drinks together and curse out Rousseau simply because she is French.

Posted by: Adam | May 17, 2007 11:41 AM | Report abuse

I'm excited for tonights Lost chat with the producers at 10pm after Grey's! That should answer some questions hopefully!

Posted by: LovinLost | May 17, 2007 11:43 AM | Report abuse

Well, last night was obviously the set up for the big season finale next week, and for that, I'm willing to give it a pass. The ep had me going for the most part, but seemed to end with a clunk. Expected to see "To be continued" flash on the screen.

That scene with Jack leading everyone in to field to watch the explosion was so lame--like, "look, we're all together again, just like old times." What was the point?

And I'm sorry, why isn't anyone drilling Naomi with questions about her chopper and the ship? The chick drops out of the sky and now everyone treats her like a campfire friend. Where's your curiosity, folks?

Enjoyed the Charlie's Angels surprise in the Looking Glass! There should be some fun in there next week. Were those the two who were in bed with Charlie in Helsinki!?

It looks like I should be putting away my Bible and pulling out The Annotated Alice in Wonderland. What symbolism lies in the bloody hands of Alex as she skinned that white rabbit? And why does she suddenly suspect that Ben is not her father?

And, Liz, I wouldn't worry too much about Lost's ratings. It was among the top 10 show last week. It can't be hurting that badly.

Posted by: Not Shlomo | May 17, 2007 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Not Shlomo:

Remember when Sayid, tied up on the swingset at Othersville, mentioned to Alex that she looked like her mother? That's when Alex started doubting whether Ben is her father. Also, recall young Ben bringing the White Rabbit into the jungle when he left Dharma camp...I think the symbolism in Alex skinning a White Rabbit is pretty clear -- she hates Ben and will work to help the Losties (as seen in her immediate move to make Carl go to the beach to warn everyone of the moved-up attack timeline).

Posted by: Dan | May 17, 2007 11:52 AM | Report abuse

I totally agree that they could be the pregnant women who died! Maybe one of the Others tricked Ben into thinking the Looking Glass is flooded and has been hiding them there with their kids!

Posted by: Wash, DC | May 17, 2007 11:52 AM | Report abuse

Sorry I forgot to bring this up last episode. I was wondering if there was perhaps an Easter Egg in the Ben episode where some saw the "crazy" person who gave Hurley the numbers he used in the lottery. I had to figure he was a member of Dharma, and that would have been a good episode to slip him in.

Back to this episode. I missed the actual showing of the rabbit, but heard the latter discussion between Alex and Carl. Is this the same rabbit Ben was showed with in his flashback, or maybe an offspring of that rabbit? (If it was an offspring, that would be interesting in that rabbits could reproduce but not the Others...)

Aside question: Just what is Carl's backstory? That would have to be inciteful.

I'm suprised Liz that you didn't mention whether the ending ruins Desmond's predictive ability, or if Charlie still dies in the manner that Desmond says Charlie will (i.e. the Looking Glass is about to become flooded). To use a baseball analogy (because Liz knows all about baseball) I have to think at some point Desmond swings and misses in his predictions. (or is Desmond the modern day Nostradamus where everyone find meaning in his predictions even if they aren't literally correct)

Posted by: Lost Viewer | May 17, 2007 11:52 AM | Report abuse

Like I said in the earlier comments, this week was like a nice palate cleanser for the death, destruction & doom that will reign on the island in the finale.

I read the Talisman so quickly so many years ago I'd totally forgotten about the "twinners" & most of that story. I really need to reread it & then read the sequel "The Black House."

The only thing I recall about the book is that I loved it.

Posted by: Bored @ work | May 17, 2007 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Not Shlomo, in regard to Alex wondering about her father, after Sayid said, "I'm sure that's what they told you" about her mom being dead, it must have started the wheels turning in her head.

Is anyone else troubled by the name of the new hatch, The Looking Glass, and the Dharma rabbit symbol (with the hole in it)?

For me, the most intriguing line in the episode was, "here we go again."

Posted by: Elsie | May 17, 2007 11:59 AM | Report abuse

DVR recordings do count if the show is watched in the 24 hours... "Live plus one" is how they refer to it I believe.

Posted by: DVR | May 17, 2007 12:00 PM | Report abuse

I was thinking along the lines of Heather with regards to the Looking Glass women. Perhaps women that were brought in for pregnancy experiments but managed to escape and takeover the station? Perhaps a safe house for women that Ben did not want experimented on (like his childhood sweetheart)

The other helicopter rescuers makes sense too since Desmond & co. were near the looking glass cable when they found Naomi.

Posted by: Buck Dharma | May 17, 2007 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Sadly, I think with the long swimming bit, they missed a fine opportunity to use the Dharma shark. :)

Posted by: YetAnotherLostFan | May 17, 2007 12:04 PM | Report abuse

Hmm. I wonder if Alex and Rousseau are able to communicate with each other. They seem to be in aliance even though they are separated. Hard to believe that Rousseau would be okay with Ben raising Alex as his own daughter--she doesn't even get visitation rights.

Posted by: Not Shlomo | May 17, 2007 12:05 PM | Report abuse

The episode would have been a whole lot better if Charlie had died. What a waste of flashbacks.

And the Talisman rocks.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 12:06 PM | Report abuse

I've read that there are studies showing that more than half of people watching shows recorded on DVR actually watch the commercials. I don't get why -- I certainly skip them unless I see an interesting one, like a new Mac ad, zipping by -- but you know the network and ad execs are taking that into account.

Posted by: jane | May 17, 2007 12:07 PM | Report abuse

RE: Desmond's prediction

Remember the football match in the pub? Desmond doesn't know exactly what is going to happen, he just gets flashes. This means two things: 1) Charlie's death may be in the finale or sometime into Season 4 and 2) Charlie may not die at all, but may appear to drown, thus yielding the happy reunion with Claire and Aaron that would be a crowd pleaser (though not this crowd). In the one "flash" we've seen, after all, we didn't really see Charlie die, just gurgling and my great great grandfather survived an arrow through the neck, according to family legend.

Posted by: Section 506 (After moving) | May 17, 2007 12:07 PM | Report abuse

I'm not a huge Charlie fan, but had to give him a huge "THANK YOU" when he was trekking across a field with the other Losties at one point last night and made a "why all the secrets? why can't we just be straight with each other" comment. Amen, brotha.

I think that Desmond lied to Charlie about how he dies. I think he probably does see Charlie flip the switch and then die, but I think that he didn't want to tell Charlie about whatever torture and agony he's going to have to suffer at the hands of those women in the Looking Glass before he can get himself to the switch, that he was making things "easier" for Charlie if he just told him that he drowns. Yes, he dies either way, and yes, drowning is an awful way to die, but probably easier to accept than gunshot, torture or a more drawn out battle, etc.

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Whoever came up with the theory that the Hostiles/Pre-Others are forever-young survivors from the Black Rock is a genius. It makes perfect sense. Perhaps, being a slaving ship, the crew was cursed in some way. That Richard guy creeps me out almost as much as Ben.

Posted by: Brandybuck | May 17, 2007 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Did anyone else think the ladies in the Looking Glass were dressed like Rousseau? (At least that's what my wife thought...big surprise...I don't tend to pick up on stuff like that). Maybe they're all from the same group? Not sure how it would fit in, but it's a possibility.

Posted by: DC | May 17, 2007 12:18 PM | Report abuse

YetAnotherLostFan: Good call on the shark. I absolutely expected to see it show up.

Can someone help my faulty memory? Didn't we see Charlie playing on that street corner in Desmond's flashback? (I especially love the Oasis reference, since their clearly a model for Driveshaft -- warring brothers, etc.) And who was the woman being mugged? Was that Sayid's lost love?

Posted by: jane | May 17, 2007 12:20 PM | Report abuse

Elsie - just noticed the White Rabbit logo for the Looking Glass station.....very interesting!

Screenshots on http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Fairfax | May 17, 2007 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Jane - I was totally expecting Desmond to show up in charlie's flashback. That was definitely the same corner, though, maybe Charlie worked there often.

And I'm pretty sure that was Sayid's lost love that he rescued. Nice inter-connection easter egg, but I'm guessing it's just one of those Lost coincidences and not something larger... though maybe whatever the ANSWER to Lost is will clear up these connections in one fell swoop. :)

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 12:24 PM | Report abuse

Going with the "Time Loop" theory, and the fact that the producers said there was something hidden in the pilot, I wouldn't be surprised if we figure out how Jack ended up alone in the jungle after the crash.

Posted by: saffron city | May 17, 2007 12:25 PM | Report abuse

Is anyone concerned about what the previews for next episode mean? Apparently the whole group comes face to face with Ben and they have no weapons (or fewer) since the shooters are at the beach. Did the Juliette betray them?

Posted by: Aimee | May 17, 2007 12:26 PM | Report abuse

This episode seemed like a long goodbye to Charlie, until the women with the guns showed up. I believe this is the writers way of saying to the viewers, "So you think you know what is going on? Now watch this!" For me, it immediately cast doubt on the credibility of Desmond's predictions--or maybe I am just supposed to think that. I thought it was a great twist.

I thought one of the more interesting lines came from Ben about how Jacob wanted them to go to the Lostie's camp a day early. I do not see how or why Jacob would have said that. Ben seems to be the one calling the shots and Jacob seems to be some kind of imprisoned spirit whom Ben is using for his own ends. Ben definitely seems to be losing his control over his group.

Posted by: lac | May 17, 2007 12:28 PM | Report abuse

Hurley was huge, and he looked kinda stoned. Maybe this episode was filmed out of order, as previously theorized. Those guys are getting too fat and happy in Hawaii.

Posted by: Hungover | May 17, 2007 12:30 PM | Report abuse

It actually wasn't the same corner....screenshots of that and confirmation that Charlie saved Nadia are on http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/ too....love that site!

Posted by: Fairfax | May 17, 2007 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Is it just me or did the woman who was pointing the gun at Charlie look an awful lot like Ben's mother?... Just curious!

Posted by: N. Backstrom | May 17, 2007 12:31 PM | Report abuse

What about the ring - a LOTR moment? What else does D.S. stand for (besides the obvious, Drive Shaft, Dharma Shark, etc.) Is the ring the talisman?

Posted by: m.a.t. | May 17, 2007 12:33 PM | Report abuse

Scenes and episodes are regularly shot out of order. Not just on this show, but most. It helps cut down on production costs.

Posted by: Buck Dharma | May 17, 2007 12:34 PM | Report abuse

Do you think we ought to speculate that Alex might be pregnant? The rabbit died?

Posted by: cb | May 17, 2007 12:36 PM | Report abuse

CB: I was thinking the same thing about Alex and the rabbit -- especially because of the interaction with Carl. On the surface, it appears that this episode is about Charlie. But I think if you dig deeper, there are sooooooo many more clues. It makes my brain hurt.

Posted by: polyester | May 17, 2007 12:38 PM | Report abuse

Awesome, cb! Great call. Ben will send her through the looking glass with Anne and Ben's mom.

Posted by: Hungover | May 17, 2007 12:39 PM | Report abuse

White Rabbits are apparently the Lost accessory of the season.

I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date...

Posted by: Alice | May 17, 2007 12:39 PM | Report abuse

I hope Sayid will finally get to meet up with his Nadya. She keeps "popping up" - she already met John and Charlie. I loved the "Nadya connection" in Charlie's last night's flashback.

Posted by: oceana | May 17, 2007 12:39 PM | Report abuse

A couple of thoughts...why did Juliette mark three tents? We know about Sun and Kate, but who is the third?

We never saw Desmond's flash regarding Charlie's death...is it possible that he saw his own death and used this as a convenient way to fulfill the Charlie prophecy?

Interesting insertion of Naomi from S1, but where was Desmond when Charlie was playing his guitar on the street?

Line of the night - Rose to Bernard: "Let's get you into something dark."

Posted by: Lester Burnham | May 17, 2007 12:40 PM | Report abuse

did anyone else get the impression that the person mugging the woman in the alley was charlie's brother? the grey hoodie reminded me of liam.

Posted by: jorduroy | May 17, 2007 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Based on the Alice in Wonderland allusion, my theory is that the Looking Glass station is a way through to the "outside world," and that Charlie is now in a different place and/or time.

Posted by: Lisa | May 17, 2007 12:45 PM | Report abuse

I was enjoying the fakeout. "He's going to die! Oh, no! He's . . . not dead yet." Unless the *real* fakeout is that he gets shot and killed five minues into the next episode . . .

Posted by: BTM | May 17, 2007 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to simply use some dynamite to blow up the cable than to visit the underwater hatch?

Posted by: CheekyMonkey | May 17, 2007 12:47 PM | Report abuse

I don't know if I really buy into a Talisman-esque reading of Lost -- but for you two, who seem to enjoy that type of stuff, The whole mythology created by King through the Talisman and Black House (with Peter Straub in each) and his Dark Tower series (and other books -- Hearts of Atlantis being one of many) provides interesting comparisons to Lost in that he weaves storylines together in a similar way that the Losties stories have that neat way of brushing, sometimes biting, into one another. The critics be damned, but King's works along those lines also has the synergistic element that has hit me in some episodes of Lost, that only by paying attention to the nuances of each story and thinking about them does the full power of the reveal hit you. To be able to do that to a watcher or reader, wow, now that's something . . . I look forward to the punch in Lost.

Posted by: Ben | May 17, 2007 12:47 PM | Report abuse

CheekyMonkey -- the cable wasn't the power source, it was merely a guide to the station.

Posted by: Fairfax | May 17, 2007 12:48 PM | Report abuse

One of the other Lost allusions that my husband has pointed out is the look, feel & plotting of the Myst games. The underwater station is evidently quite like one of the Myst or Riven settings. The time travel, island, embedded clues, etc. are also part of the Myst game scenario.

I also thought that there was a bit of current events political commentary in the set up of the violent confrontation of the Others, Sayid's confrontation with Jack, if you want to be the leader, start acting like one, etc. (I think the writers are setting Jack's violence solution up for a fall). One of the themes this season (in addition to failed fathers) is the theme of the effective leader (or perhaps hero). We see Ben, Locke, Sawyer (in a nascent stage), Jack, Charlie, Desmond, and Sayid in various versions of this. I think this week's episode really contrasts Charlie's growth from feeling doomed to being the altruistic volunteer hero, taking on a fatal task for love of Clair & Aaron, with Jack's violent approach, apparently motivated by personal revenge and hatred. Of course Ben is the other end of the spectrum, the evil manipulator who uses "spiritual power" and lies to motivate & mislead his followers for his own ends (not clear what those are exactly, other than self-preservation & self-aggrandizement).
What I like about this series is some actual personal growth in the characters' maturity and self-knowledge, with the glaring exception of Jack and Kate, who seemed to stay pretty shallow & fixed & studid in their approaches to problems.

On a different note, one of the promos of the extra show next week with the creators showed excerpts that had a "living" Locke; don't know if that was a clip from a prior episode or a clue to a risen Locke (I hope).

Posted by: Lindytx | May 17, 2007 12:49 PM | Report abuse

m.a.t. the DS on Charlie's ring stands for Dexter Stratton, his great grandfather.
http://en.lostpedia.com/wiki/Dexter_stratton

I'm still thinking about the rabbit Dharma symbol. Maybe the black mark on the rabbit isn't just a hole but a black hole? I know that's stretching things a bit but this is Lost!

Posted by: Elsie | May 17, 2007 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Lisa - My very first thought just before Charlie popped up out of the water in the Looking Glass was that he was about to pass through the time/space portal. I was really anxious that we were going to see him pop into the "real world" or something crazy. It was something about the way the water was reflecting above his head, it looked strange.

I wonder, if the station is not some sort of portal, what the function of it is and why it has the sub dock at all, and not just a ladder to a boat, etc. And clearly the station is not flooded, as Ben told his followers. (I assumed from the looks of it that the sub dock was always underwater and that the top door of the sub would fit into the hole Charlie came through)

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Hmm now I am starting to think that maybe the Looking Glass station is the way off the island.....

Posted by: Fairfax | May 17, 2007 12:54 PM | Report abuse

Fairfax, if the cable is simply a tether to the hatch, how is it controllingjamming the signal from the radio tower?

Posted by: CheekyMonkey | May 17, 2007 12:55 PM | Report abuse

Lindytx,

The Answers extra show is TONIGHT, not next week. On after that insipid show Grey's Anatomy season finale.

Posted by: Procrastinator | May 17, 2007 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Before we go too crazy dreaming up alternate explanations for the two women in the Looking Glass, let's start with the most obvious possibility -- that they are just more Others. Lest we forget, the Others had their own submarine until about three weeks ago, and the Looking Glass just happens to have a sub docking station. Coincidence? I think not...

Also, don't start doubting Desmond just yet. We know that Claire and Aaron are not going to be rescued next week, since this show is going to run for another three seasons. So far we have been given no reason to doubt the accuracy of Desmond's visions, so the most logical assumption is that something is going to go wrong like it always does with Charlie. Maybe Desmond goes down to rescue him and pushes the button himself?

I agree -- Rose and Bernard are a waste of valuable air time. Here's hoping that they get bit by a spider -- and soon...

Steve

Posted by: Steve | May 17, 2007 12:58 PM | Report abuse

CheekyMonkey -- I am not sure. I just remember in the episode they said the cable was a guide...hmmmm...maybe Lostpedia can help haha

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Looking_Glass

Posted by: Fairfax | May 17, 2007 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone think there's symbolism to Charlie's ring being left behind when Claire took Aaron?

Locke is sooo not dead, I think he'll be back.

Posted by: petal | May 17, 2007 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of Hurley's size, Sayid seems to be getting a little bigger around the middle too. Ah, the good life in Hawaii. Or maybe he's pregnant.

Posted by: Monk0127 | May 17, 2007 1:05 PM | Report abuse

If the Others can spy on all the activities in any of the hatches, why can't they see what's going on in the Looking Glass station too?

Same question, different season: Why couldn't they see when Benry was captured and imprisoned by the Losties?

Posted by: slow-to-the-table | May 17, 2007 1:07 PM | Report abuse

Symbolism to the ring being left behind? I just thought Charlie had left it on purpose for Aaron, to keep it in the family, as his brother made him promise. Aaron's not his real family, but he loves him and Claire, so it's next best. Hopefully it is found if/when the Losties return to the beach. If you mean symbolism beyond that, it's beyond me.

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 1:07 PM | Report abuse

Going with the Ben fertility thing... Jen and Liz, do you recall the saying "the rabbit died"? It was an old expression to refer to a woman being pregnant! So, we have Ben with a white rabbit, Alex skinning one, the Lookiing Glass logo is a white rabbit and rabbits dying as an old pregnancy test. Those ladies in the looking glass have got to be mommies!

Posted by: Lost Dad | May 17, 2007 1:07 PM | Report abuse

If I'm not mistaken that was Sayid's girl who Charlie saves in the alley.

Also, Charlie was singing Wonderwall when it started raining again but there was no Des coming over all crazy and pissed which has to be enough for everyone to accept that time is looping both on the Island and elsewhere.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Daddy issues: Last night's episode was the first time we saw Charlie's dad. At first when he was begging Charlie to jump, promising him he would be caught, I got all worried thinking that he was lying to young Charlie and he was about to be emotionally scarred by his father... Then is jumps, his father grabs him and he's all happy... so no father issues for Charlie? Is this significant?

Ben and Alex: I wonder if Ben told Alex that her mother died in childbirth. If he did, is he trying to make her feel guilty for this, the same way his dad did?

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 1:12 PM | Report abuse

Steve, based on what we've been told about a snake in the mailbox and a game-changer, I am reluctant to make assumptions about what TPTB have planned. Clearly, there are some time issues with this story. As Jen pointed out, there was that odd line from Jack, "Here we go again."

Posted by: Elsie | May 17, 2007 1:12 PM | Report abuse

"a snake in the mailbox and a game-changer"

huh?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 1:14 PM | Report abuse

in re: Brandy

"There's a port/on a western bay/ and it serves a hundred ships a day/ lonely sailors/ pass their time away/ they talk about their home.

Would much rather waste my time desconstructing this lyric over the mind numbing talk of Enlightment Period philosophers, Bible references and other grad student hubub. You hearing me J. Wood? Just what does the J. stand for anyway? And if you tell me Jacob I'm done.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Anon those comments were made by Damon & Carlton either in the last podcast or the one before. You can find them on abc.com.

Posted by: Elsie | May 17, 2007 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Re: The looking glass - Did notice what the looking glass looked like from the top? Was it what we saw in the water when Hurley was led to the edge of the cliff in a previous season by his imaginary friend (Charlotte's husband from Sex & the City)? Or was that just a manhole cover added in the water with photoshop in the screenshot like some have theorized?

Re: Mugging - I could have sworn that the guy mugging her looked exactly like Liam, not just because of the hoodie, but his face strongly resembled him, if indeed it wasn't.

Posted by: J | May 17, 2007 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Why are so many people confused with the "Here we go again" line between Jack and Kate? This is what, going to be the third time that they have gone to "battle" with the Others? (first time being when they met Tom with his beard at night), the second time when they trecked off with Michael at the end of last season. So they're going off to battle with the Others again...what am I missing here?

Posted by: Dan | May 17, 2007 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Why is everyone suprised Charlie made it into the looking glass without drowning? I thought he had to push the yellow button, THEN he will die.

Posted by: confused | May 17, 2007 1:21 PM | Report abuse

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcast?pn=podcast

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 1:22 PM | Report abuse

cool, i've just not heard the expression 'snake in the mailbox' before, so you threw me off.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 1:23 PM | Report abuse

Whoa...is the blonde from the Looking Glass Hatch Ben's mom?? See the screen schots from losteastereggs, where you can see both their faces close up. they look like the same person (although I am not 100% sure). We did see ben's mom on the island as a "ghost" and there are theories about the women in the hatch being "dead mothers." hmmmm....not sure this makes sense but perhaps worth exploring.

Posted by: mm | May 17, 2007 1:24 PM | Report abuse

I think Charlie's a goner. He's had moments of being a very unlikable character, so for maximum emotional effect, they gave him the "awwww" flashbacks this week so people wouldn't be cheering when he died. His resurfacing in the underwater hatch is just that brief "phew" moment in horror movies that they do to get you to relax, so that when the person actually dies, the viewers are all surprised. The producers like to redeem people before they kill them off & that's what this whole ep was for. The spolier sites say someone major is gonna go, and I'd sure rather it be Charlie than Locke... he's much less essential to this plot & his back story seems like it can be distinguished from the other "important" Losties (e.g. no father issues, no murder, etc.)

Posted by: bye bye charlie | May 17, 2007 1:24 PM | Report abuse

How about this "out there" thought on the Looking Glass hatch...it really is a portal to the real world which our survivors find their way to (still not sure how). The show begins in the fall by exposing that the first three seasons have been one giant series of flashbacks as told by (Jack, Kate, someone else?)and they are living in the present day. Since most of the backstories and flashbacks are exposed, the "flashforward" style will be an accounting of how how they survived on the island and their efforts to expose (help?) Dharma. There is still a lot of island story to tell, but why not do it from 2004 forward?

Posted by: Lester Burnham | May 17, 2007 1:32 PM | Report abuse

1. What is Penny up to?
Good question. If Naomi is really from that a ship with Penny, where are they? I'm starting to think Naomi is from the Looking Glass, only a little.

2. Is Locke alive?
Of course. If he dies I stop watching the show and ad revenues drop. The writers wouldn't dare. I'm expecting him to show up next season.

3. Who is Richard Alpert, really?
A pirate from the pirate ship of course.

4. Is Kate pregnant?
If not she is certainly trying like hell.

5. Is there really a ship, as Naomi says, 80 miles off the island?
Maybe.

I agree Hurley look incredibly huge this show.

I also wondered what Alex was doing to the rabbit. Didn't look very skillful. If she was making rabbit meat for Carl, well, good thing Carl had to go save the Losties where they have canned goods.

As for the lovelies in the Looking Glass, they acted very disciplined and militaristic, much like the Dharma folks. I'm guessing they are original Dharma, left stranded in the Looking Glass when Benry killed the Dharma people. Hmmm, poor Charlie stuck on a stranded station with at least two women ... and he's a rock star. Better keep the show at its 10pm slot!

One thing I'm keeping in mind is that while the island has these crazy powers, smokey, etc, the Looking Glass is not on the island. Maybe Jacob and whatever power the island has cannot reach the Looking Glass. Maybe the Looking Glass and its fembot former Dharmies will launch a counter attack once Charlie tells them what's happening on the island.

One thing that I keep noticing ... Desmond is once again out of the loop. Everytime a mission is lead by Jack, Locke, etc, Desmond stays behind. Now he's unconscious in a boat while Jack leads people to safety, Sayid prepares for war and Charlie is in wonderful danger. Why is Desmond always on the sidelines?

Good catch on the three stones marking the tents of pregnant women.

One thing I learned on the fuselage site is that Ben's mom had Ben in her 7th month of pregnancy and died and now on the island women die when they reach seven months. Someone here pointed out that Ben told Alex her mom had died. Could Ben's psychosis about his mother be making, though the island's powers, women die in their 7th month as well? I think its time to kill Ben to see if anything changes. If not, well, good riddence :^)

Posted by: Sully | May 17, 2007 1:35 PM | Report abuse

According to lostpedia, we've seen Charlie's father before -- he was not happy with Charlie & Liam being in a band or something, but that's the extent of his "father issues". And, yes, I think that's significant, since everyone without father issues seems to die. Seemed like they were driving home the point that Charlie didn't have the same sort of issues.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 1:37 PM | Report abuse

Jack is the one who looked particularly beefy to me. Perhaps the Dharma brand food needs to consider cutting back on the trans fats.

Posted by: Thomas | May 17, 2007 1:42 PM | Report abuse

Was anyone else really annoyed when Jack wasted perfectly good dynamite with his little explosion demo? Like the time setting that up wouldn't have been better used actually rigging up something that would protect them against the others? Argh.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 1:42 PM | Report abuse

The woman in the Looking Glass might also be the woman in the red car that picked up Ben's family off the road from Portland in the flashback scene? As I recall, she looked a great deal like Ben's mother. And I didn't see her dead after the suburb was gassed.
(This is a gas, really i'nt it?)

Posted by: NM | May 17, 2007 1:43 PM | Report abuse

When Jack, Kate, and Sawyer were held captive wasn't Jack kept in an underwater facility? That would mean that Juliet knows about it as well...

Posted by: clearlylost | May 17, 2007 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Good pointer about father issues. And Ben is the father of father issues. I also noticed that when young Charlie jumped into the pool there was a slomo moment where he looked like he afraid of drowning but his father grabbed him and brought him up. I wonder if something like that will repeat itself. They did make it a major focus of that scene.

Posted by: Sully | May 17, 2007 1:44 PM | Report abuse

What makes you think it's not going to be Desmond that goes when he wakes up and decides to try to save Charlie?

Posted by: Section 506 (After moving) | May 17, 2007 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Hey Lester,
You shouldn't pass off possible "spoilers" as original ideas. You aren't the only one who reads darkufo...

Posted by: Tricia | May 17, 2007 1:47 PM | Report abuse

I don't think that Jack's hatch was underwater as much as it had access to the ocean. It was probably much like the Swan and Pearl, but with some sort of piping system with valves that could be used to flood a tank or two for observing sealife.

Posted by: CheekyMonkey | May 17, 2007 1:51 PM | Report abuse

We know Rose and Bernard are from Buffalo, NY, so it is more likely the Montgomery County mentioned last night is Montgomery County, NY, which is close-ish to Albany. Sorry dudes.

Posted by: Shawn | May 17, 2007 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Hey guys, can we keep the future-episode spoilers to a minimum? You're more-or-less giving away that Locke will still be alive and Penny will be back; an offhand mention of the former created a big hubbub in another message board last week, and I was unaware of the latter (purposely staying away from the guest-star list to avoid this kind of info).

Not that it'll make much difference after the finale anyway, but I come here for nut-bag analysis of the current episode, nothing beyond.

Posted by: Will | May 17, 2007 1:56 PM | Report abuse

maybe somebody already said this, but did anyone think that the woman with the gun trained on charlie looked an awful lot like that little girl Annie?

Posted by: anony | May 17, 2007 1:57 PM | Report abuse

Albany is on the exact opposite side of New York as Buffalo.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 2:02 PM | Report abuse

I didn't think that Jack was behind held in an underwater location by the Others - it was my impression that he was in an empty aquarium tank, basically. It could have been anywhere on their island, not necessarily near the water either.

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 2:06 PM | Report abuse

Clearly, much like the Addison Shephard GA nonsense the other week, Rose and Bernard are back to set up their spin-off series -- Rose and Bernard: Love Island. The euphemism was pretty obvious when Rose told Bernard, "This isn't pheasant hunting in Montgomery County."

Don't worry, Rose. The days of sweet love making off in the jungle will be back after this season finale silliness is over.

Posted by: A | May 17, 2007 2:06 PM | Report abuse

Naomi is not what she purports to be. It's highly unlikely that she would have been flying a helicopter (especially doing search and rescue) by herself. Ask a helicopeter pilot how hard it is to fly on esolo and if they'd routinely go out over open water without at least one other crew member. She probably came from the Looking Glass station.

Posted by: Green Rich | May 17, 2007 2:09 PM | Report abuse

Will:
See top of the page: Warning: Spoilers ahead

The only page I really can recommend that is able to keep those who "don't want to know" anything that's coming up is the Fuselage. They have a special Spoiler font where you can choose to highlight it and read it or not.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 2:12 PM | Report abuse

For me, the highlight of the night was the reprise of "You All Everybody." I can not get enough of that song.

Will, THANK YOU! Please don't tell me what's going to happen...but I do love the nut bag analysis.

Posted by: NM | May 17, 2007 2:13 PM | Report abuse

re: the women in charlie's underwater hatch. On lostpedia, they are named as Greta and Bonnie - supposedly per an ABC press release.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 2:15 PM | Report abuse

Is there any chance that the song Des hears on the jukebox is a Driveshaft tune? Also, I do think there has to be a parallel between getting hit with the cricket bat and getting hit with the oar. I have been saying for awhile that when Charlie dies will coincide with Des looping again.

Posted by: Jeff | May 17, 2007 2:16 PM | Report abuse

I think the station where Jack was kept was called the "Hydra."

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 2:24 PM | Report abuse

I love the "women in the looking glass are women who "died" giving birth on the island." theory! Way to go. I'll bet it is.

Posted by: Sam888 | May 17, 2007 2:25 PM | Report abuse

Lost at Work,

I should have typed "anything significant" instead of sybolism. It just seemed sad that he thinks of Aaron as his son and passed the ring to him but now Aaron might not get it. So the passing down this ring maybe broken.

Posted by: petal | May 17, 2007 2:27 PM | Report abuse

NM: Yes!!! I was just wondering a few weeks ago if we'd ever hear "You All Everybody" again!

I'll have to go back and look at the stills to see if the purse-snatcher looked like Liam to me. How weird and sad would that be. If I remember correctly, Charlie did seem to have an odd expression on his face as he watched the mugger run off. And I could not place Nadia at first but recognized her as someone we'd met before.

Per something my husband read on one of the spoiler blogs, I have a theory about the "Here we go again" comment but for Will and others, I won't share (just as I wished my husband hadn't shared it with me!!! He didn't even give me the chance to ask if I wanted to hear or not, just came right out with it!)

I can't remember which blog he was looking at but if I can find it, I'll post a link.

Posted by: Acting like those stupid people wearing expensive clothes | May 17, 2007 2:30 PM | Report abuse

How's this for a spoiler?

Five cast members including one major one are supposed to die in the finale. Any guesses? I'm going with Charlie, Rose & Bernard (so that people will stop hounding TPTB to make them regulars -- also Rose is the third pregnant one, I bet), and some random Others.

Posted by: uh oh | May 17, 2007 2:35 PM | Report abuse

I think it was definitely a time loop with Charlie singing on the sidewalk. Why would they have a scene that is so similiar to the one where Desmond shows up in the rain on the sidewalk if it wasn't to let viewers see that something in the time continuum has changed. And for what it's worth, had Desmond come out and gone all crazy on Charlie as in the other episode then Charlie would not have been able to rescue Sayid's girlfriend from the mugger.

Posted by: rnm | May 17, 2007 2:41 PM | Report abuse

I know Buffalo and Albany are on different sides of the great state of New York. What I said was "...Montgomery County, NY, which is close-ish to Albany."

Montgomery County New York is near Albany. See this webpage - http://geology.com/state-map/new-york.shtml - scroll down about halfway to the map of the counties. Montgomery County is next to Schenetady County, which is next to Albany County.

Posted by: Shawn | May 17, 2007 2:42 PM | Report abuse

He said the spoiler blog was http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com

Go there at your own risk. It has some major spoilers about the finale (what I was referencing above). I will try to forget what I read before next week so I can be surprised if it is an accurate blog. I like to be surprised!

Posted by: You.All.Everybody | May 17, 2007 2:47 PM | Report abuse

I need to figure out if it's my dish or something actually put in the show and you folks are the ones to tell me. During this current season has anybody else noticed the video occasionally (very briefly) slows down and almost "ripples"?

If this is my dish/DVR then I'm going crazy but if not it certainly yields itself to the time warp/alternate universe theory.

Thoughts?

BTW: check out the lost eastegg site mentioned earlier for some cool screen grabs from last weeks episode where Annie gives young Ben the Candy Bar. It says something about Pollo (Spanish for chicken, the same chicken that Hurley loves)....is Jacob really a skinny dead Hurley ghost??

Posted by: Black Box Finder | May 17, 2007 2:51 PM | Report abuse

How's this for an alternate ending for all you Charlie haters: He's all excited when he sees the light at the bottom of the Looking Glass, then slams headfirst into a giant glass door. The episode could've ended with a camera shot of the two Bond ladies aiming their guns at him as he pounds on it, slowly sinking down as the camera fades to black. But no, we're likely left with another season of him mispronouncing Aaron as Errin. Damn.

Posted by: Charlie | May 17, 2007 2:56 PM | Report abuse

Can someone remind me where/when Sayid got the map of the Looking Glass?

Posted by: The map | May 17, 2007 2:59 PM | Report abuse

Black Box Finder, the candy was an Apollo bar. You can read about them on Lostpedia.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Apollo_Candy_Bar

Posted by: Elsie | May 17, 2007 2:59 PM | Report abuse

Sayid took the map from McPatchy's station.

Posted by: Fairfax | May 17, 2007 3:00 PM | Report abuse

Apollo bar...A "Dancing with the Stars" Easter Egg, perhaps? Hey, maybe Jacob is Tom Bergeron.

Posted by: Oh No! | May 17, 2007 3:06 PM | Report abuse

i'm not sure if this has been mentioned by anybody here or elsewhere, but does anybody remember whether desmond has any "visions" of scenes where he wasn't present? it seems like he actually was actually there when he saw charlie's tent get hit by lightning, charlie drown trying to save claire, charlie get struck in the throat by an arrow. it seems to me like he's supposed to actually be *there* when he sees charlie hit this button and then drown. either that or he's just lying to charlie about the whole scene for some reason. any thoughts?

Posted by: gk | May 17, 2007 3:12 PM | Report abuse

I must be in the minority for thinking a lot happened last night - or at least to cement my reading of "Lost" as a re-telling of Francis Bacon's "The New Atlantis."

In TNA, the lost sailors come upon the mysterious Island - but they are not allowed to enter Bensalem. They are first held out in their own ship (where they are visited by various of Bensalem's leaders/emissaries) and later they are put into a segregated, special visitors' quarters.

That is not unlike what happened in real history in, say, China or Japan, where the native population wanted to protect themselves from "pollution" of all kinds - physical, cultural, etc.

The analogy to Alice in Wonderland was icing on the cake. The Looking Glass portal (to Wonderland) is undersea (as is now Atlantis) and with its submarine access, would make a good first stop for quarantine on the way to The Island. If all incomers are required to be "examined" there - then it makes sense that they are drugged for the voyage so that they can't see it or know it or find their way back to it.

After they are "cleared", then incomers can be brought by submarine to The Island itself - though Otherville may, indeed, be some segregated enclave to keep them from the Island Natives.

The killing of the rabbit symbolized to me the anti-utopia that actually developed there - and it was a pretty funny "You're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice" moment.

In "The New Atlantis", after having the island and how it works explained to them, some selected ones of the shipwrecked sailors were allowed to stay, whereas others were allowed to return to the Real World where they were free to tell whatever they wanted to tell or whatever would be believed. In the end, I think "Lost" will offer the plane wreck survivors the same sort of choice.

I can see Locke staying - and perhaps Rose and Bernard. For them, what the island can do for them outweighs any other opportunities (like death) back in the RW. But for younger ones, like Claire and her son, they'll board the chopper all right. They have plenty of RW living yet to do.

"The New Atlantis" is available on-line in full-text from several university libraries and I encourage anyone interested to read it. I think you'll see a lot of parallels to "Lost" - though the whole Fall from Paradise anti-utopia doesn't really happen in that story.

Posted by: Jean | May 17, 2007 3:12 PM | Report abuse

Charlie: That is what I first thought as Charlie approached the entrance to the Looking Glass, especially the way they filmed the shot. I was sure he was about to bump into a giant glass door and that would be it but then he wouldn't be able to fulfull his mission to flip the yellow switch.

Re: Aaron vs. Errin. How is he supposed to pronounce it?

Posted by: YAE | May 17, 2007 3:20 PM | Report abuse

There's definitely something up with the timeline. Rousseau lands on the island in 1988, and there's no one there (she says). But the Dharma Initiative brings Inman to the island sometime after the end of the Gulf War in 1991; Mikhail says the purge happened in 1993, which fits. I.e., 5 years after Rousseau landed.

Posted by: Charodon | May 17, 2007 3:22 PM | Report abuse

I think there is something to the Talisman thread and Stephen King in general. Don't forget that the Other's Bookclub was reviewing a Stephen King novel at the beginning of this season and we saw it again in the Juliette flashback episode

Posted by: emcdoj | May 17, 2007 3:25 PM | Report abuse

"Naomi is not what she purports to be ... She probably came from the Looking Glass station."

Actually, I think she came from Goldfinger's lair in Kentucky with the rest of Pussy Galore's flying circus.

Something I couldn't remember : why did Sayid have detailed plans/blueprints of the Looking Glass station? How did he acquire them?

Posted by: Nan | May 17, 2007 3:30 PM | Report abuse

I still think there has got to be more to the ring than just as a family heirloom getting passed along to Aaron (& then being left behind). The camera focused on the D.S., so there's either more to the ring or more to Dexter Stratton or something. I am sure that it will come up again.

Also, with the mugging, it wasn't just Charlie who looked at the mugger with a strange expression. There was a moment when I thought the mugger was going to go after Charlie (mugger had a weapon or something in his hand), but he stopped, looked at Charlie, and ran off. Charlie looked very discomfited - he had 2nd thoughts about helping the woman, and afterwards looked very discombobulated.

Yet, he listed the incident in his list of 5. Was it because he really thought he was a hero, or was it because it was the first time anyone had ever seen him in that light (deserved or not)?

Posted by: m.a.t. | May 17, 2007 3:33 PM | Report abuse

Does anybody else think that since Desmond has been knocked out again (think hatch explosion) that he will travel back in time again?

Posted by: Viann | May 17, 2007 3:34 PM | Report abuse

"Sayid took the map from McPatchy's station."

I thought that station was blown up before they could save any of the documents discovered there. Why would Sayid have that particular one?

Posted by: Nan | May 17, 2007 3:49 PM | Report abuse

People are noticing Jack and Hurley gaining weight. I notice Elizabeth Mitchell/Juliet getting scrawnier--stick-out ribs and a wiry neck. Yuk! Maybe she's LA-based.

Posted by: Weight Watchers | May 17, 2007 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Sayid took a bunch of them when they left...he said it out right before it blew up.

Posted by: Fairfax | May 17, 2007 3:58 PM | Report abuse

Before Locke blew up Mikhail's station, and while Locke was playing the Chess game and talking to Patchy, Sayid was in the basement checking things out. He came across a huge bookself of Dharma manuals and notebooks and selected the one used in this episode, obviously a good choice and good forward thinking on Sayid's part - why isn't Sayid the leader? He's never wrong! But I digress...

So that's where/when he got the manual.

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Totally agree, Lost at Work. Sayid has great instincts. Unless Sayid thinks he can do the things he wants to do better by operating in the background (and not be burdened with leadership) he should totally be the leader. He is my favorite character.

Posted by: Greg | May 17, 2007 4:26 PM | Report abuse

When Ben got back to camp last night, Richard Alpert asked him very excitedly, "So, did he see him?" or something to that effect. Clearly, the Others know Locke is special, and I'm assuming if Ben let on that he did see Jacob, his time as the man in charge would be over. His grip on the group is slipping...

Posted by: Jacob | May 17, 2007 4:27 PM | Report abuse

The two women in the Looking Glass Hatch must be the two from Helsinki!

Posted by: dr | May 17, 2007 4:46 PM | Report abuse

Re Charlie's ring: I thought it was a kind of subtle hommage to Hobbits & LotR; after all the actor playing Charlie was a member of the Fellowship of the Ring, even though not actually a Ring Bearer.
H & I thought the ring bit was a bit revisional, especially the flashback of C's first meeting of Clare, where the ring is very visible, but we doubt it was in the original 1st season shots; we can't recall Charlie wearing rings before.

Posted by: Lindytx | May 17, 2007 5:01 PM | Report abuse

Skip Black House. It sux.

Posted by: other liz | May 17, 2007 5:10 PM | Report abuse

I'm no electronics expert, but if Ben is in fact jamming Danielle's transmission, how was Sayid able to pick it up on the radio in the first season? I doubt that the Looking Glass casts some sort of radio-wave umbrella over the island where people can pick up signals somewhere on the island from the tower but not off the island.

That leads me to my "Juliet isn't on anyone's team but her own" theory, and she's going to double-cross the Losties or double-cross the Others...whatever makes her get the heck off the island quicker, she doesn't care.

Posted by: Dan | May 17, 2007 5:25 PM | Report abuse

A couple things from last night's episode:

1. Charlie's flashback while he was playing guitar on the street. This time, Desmond did not run into him.

2. Charlie's subtle comment to Claire that she was a 'newbie' to airplane crashes, and also - to paraphrase - "you mean this is your first plane crash."

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2007 5:25 PM | Report abuse

Charlie was flirting with Claire. I don't think the "first plane crash" comment was significant.

Posted by: Hobbit | May 17, 2007 5:30 PM | Report abuse

"...if Ben is in fact jamming Danielle's transmission, how was Sayid able to pick it up on the radio in the first season? I doubt that the Looking Glass casts some sort of radio-wave umbrella over the island where people can pick up signals somewhere on the island from the tower but not off the island."

Ummm, why wouldn't the Looking Glass station be controlling some sort of blanket over the island? We've heard several times that the sub used some sort of beacon to even find the island, so I'm thinking that a umbrella over the island where only certain signals get in and out (signals controlled by the station), isn't really that far-fetch.

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 5:37 PM | Report abuse

"Charlie was flirting with Claire. I don't think the 'first plane crash' comment was significant."

It's only significant/relevant to the discussion is the whole time-loop theory proves correct, then it would be a clever clue... along the lines of "Here we go again", etc. (Personally I don't buy that theory, but it's out there, and it does carry some weight...) Otherwise, yes, it's just a flirty comment, or TPTB trying to throw us off track for those of us that love to overanalyze :)

Posted by: Lost at Work | May 17, 2007 5:49 PM | Report abuse

though i'm sure that some will argue that the entire event was changed, not just desmond's presence, but over on losteastereggs, they posted screen shots from last night's episode together with some from the episode where desmond saw charlie singing on the street...

here's their side-by-side comparison:
"In "Greatest Hits", we see Charlie in his flashback standing on a corner, performing an Oasis song when he is interrupted by a sudden downpour. At first look, it seems this is the same scene from Flashes Before Your Eyes. But if so, where is Desmond? On closer inspection, however, it is evident we are witnessing two separate, independent events. Charlie's shirt is different, he doesn't appear to have the sign, the surrounding buildings are different (although there is a NewsAgent stand in both, the font is different on the two stands)."

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/

Posted by: hello neuman | May 17, 2007 7:28 PM | Report abuse

there are also screen shots of the robber that charlie thwarted. it's not liam, but it another close match might be another bandmate or the guy from locke's flashback who told locke that his dad was conning his mom. it could be someone else, or it could be neither.

Posted by: hello neuman | May 17, 2007 7:31 PM | Report abuse

Now that it has been mentioned, I do not recall Charlie wearing rings before either. He used to have white tape on his fingers on which he wrote F A T E. I think the ring is just supposed to symbolize his feelings for Aaron and Claire. He wanted to pass it down to his "son." I did think it was a little careless to leave it in the crib where the baby could choke on it.

Desmond did not see the women with guns, as far as we know at this point. I expected Charlie to find the switch, flip it, and then somehow drown. The women showing up and delaying the switch flipping and drowning is the twist that caught me and I am guessing at least several others off-guard. That is why people are commenting about it.

Posted by: lac | May 18, 2007 3:43 AM | Report abuse

I'm the guy who suggested last week that the ageless Alpert, et al, might be survivors of the boat. What a nice parallel it would be that they are marooned on the Island and followed by others who suffer the same fate. Perhaps the island likes to keep it enemies close, eh?

Posted by: Alan | May 18, 2007 8:54 AM | Report abuse

I want to say that Rose and Bernard met in Bethesda, Maryland if I remember their backstory correctly. Maybe someone can check this out - that would be the reference to Montgomery County.

Posted by: Mama | May 18, 2007 9:34 AM | Report abuse

ok, did anyone recognise that the girl charlie helped in the alley outside covent garden as sayid's girlfriend - the one he helped escape from the torture cells??

Posted by: tk | May 18, 2007 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Actually when Desmond elaborated on his flash to Charlie he said he saw him in a room with WOMEN, a blinking yellow light, he flips a switch and then he drowns.

Posted by: Stella | May 18, 2007 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Yes, at least as recently as 2000, Brits do still call girls "birds." It is actually a little charming. Must be the accent.

Posted by: bird - yes | May 18, 2007 11:28 AM | Report abuse

I just had a flash thanks to last night's overview by the writers. They showed the scene where Sawyer is in the cage and just figured out how to get a fish bisket. Tom laughs and says "The bears only too two hours". Now how does Tom know that if he is a hostile? This points to Tom being Dharma, like Ben, but we saw how Ben killed the Dharma people, at least at the suburbia site. Did Tom survive and join Ben? Does Tom know Ben killed them? I'm thinking that Tom and others were told something else. If word gets out that Ben and Richard killed those people, I'm guessing Tom won't be happy.

As for Richard coming from the pirate ship, I've changed my mind. I now believe the security fence is akin to the Berlin wall, meant to keep the Dharma people in and not something out. I think Richard is a deserter from Dharma who was in hiding when he came upon little Ben. With other deserters and Ben they destroyed suburbia and everyone in it because they were building an authoritarian Orwellian society. People were told what job to take, not asked which job they wanted. Discipline was rigid. And in the book 1984, authoritarian rule was maintained due to continual war. So I'm leaning now toward the "hostiles" being a fiction created by Dharma designed to maintain a state of fear and support for the authority, with the security fence to keep anyone from leaving. By the way, if this is true that would make the Others relatively the good guys. Its also probable that those lovely women in the Looking Glass are not with Ben but left behind Dharma people. In this case Charlie is going to get the snot beaten out of him since in an Orwellian society everything foreign is considered hostile. Charlie will be considered a threat no matter what he says.

Posted by: Sully | May 18, 2007 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Scully, there's a major hole in your theory: if the fence was meant to keep the Dharma people inside its perimeter, then why would Dharma provide its people with the security code for the fence, thus enabling them to turn it off and cross the boundary?

Recall that young Ben had obtained this code (changed daily, according to the island orientation video), used it to disable the fence, and then went walkabout in the jungle, whence he encountered our Mr. Richard Alpert.

This suggests that the fence is indeed meant to keep someone/thing out, rather than the Dharama folks in.

Posted by: Raoul Duke | May 18, 2007 2:21 PM | Report abuse

anyone buy into the idea that desmond himself actually wanted to get down into the looking glass? people have theorized before that we don't know how much of a connection to the others he has since he's an an actual lostie. perhaps nadia had said something as well and that's why he wanted to go out there. why he brought charlie, i'm not too sure though...

Posted by: jboss | May 18, 2007 3:12 PM | Report abuse

in re: The ring. I noticed in the early scenes from The Answers that Charlie is wearing the ring. Not sure if it was something they added but would seem like a lot of trouble considering.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 18, 2007 4:26 PM | Report abuse

I really want them off the island. Get them off, get them to the CIA and the Terrorist Prevention Group or whatever it is that Jack Bauer works for, and then go back to the island and do away with the Others. I want to see what Jack Bauer can do to Benjamin (do you think FOX will loan him to us?).

Seriously, the women in the Looking Glass looked very military. Is it possible that Ben has no control over that place and that he made up the lie about the transmission being jammed?

Posted by: susancpv | May 18, 2007 5:36 PM | Report abuse

Maybe Penny is hiding out in the Looking Glass with her team of female avengers ("Fox Force Five"). I won't be a bit surprised if Uma Thurman shows up in the Season Finale...

;^)

Steve

Posted by: Steve | May 18, 2007 9:35 PM | Report abuse

"Whoever came up with the theory that the Hostiles/Pre-Others are forever-young survivors from the Black Rock is a genius. It makes perfect sense. Perhaps, being a slaving ship, the crew was cursed in some way. That Richard guy creeps me out almost as much as Ben.

Posted by: Brandybuck | May 17, 2007 12:12 PM"

I think I'm "the genius." Thanks for the compliment, Brandybuck. I'll probably turn out to be spectacularly wrong, but it's fun to contribute one of the many engaging ideas that're floating around out here.

Posted by: Alan | May 19, 2007 2:36 PM | Report abuse

"Whoever came up with the theory that the Hostiles/Pre-Others are forever-young survivors from the Black Rock is a genius. It makes perfect sense. Perhaps, being a slaving ship, the crew was cursed in some way. That Richard guy creeps me out almost as much as Ben.

Posted by: Brandybuck | May 17, 2007 12:12 PM

I think I'm "the genius," Brandybuck. I'll probably turn out to be spectacularly wrong, but it's fun to contribute to the speculation here.

Posted by: Alan | May 19, 2007 2:38 PM | Report abuse

Oh my gosh, has anyone thought about the biblical implications of Jacob being the Twin to Esau (Who was the "hunter")?

Sounds like Jacob is Locke's Twin -- but which one is the Bad Twin?

Posted by: Sixagon | May 22, 2007 12:02 AM | Report abuse

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