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Posted at 10:43 AM ET, 02/15/2008

'Lost' Dueling Analyses: The Economist

By Liz Kelly

Sayid (Naveen Andrews) examines Naomi's bracelet. (ABC)

Post.com Movies editrix Jen Chaney and I write our 50,000th word about this dang show.

Liz: As I was trying (unsuccessfully) to fall asleep last night, I was overtaken by a wave of paranoia. "What am I missing?" I wondered. While "Lost" has always been all about working on multiple levels and teasing us with an enigma here or there, this season the show's creators seem to have steeped every detail -- from split-second shots to off-handed conversation -- with significance. And so the doubt sets in. Should we give undue weight to Ben Linus's passport name (Dean Moriarty -- a shout-out to Kerouac's "On the Road" or a comparison to Sherlock Holmes's lifelong nemesis) or dismiss it as a wink from the writing crew? It's confounding. Frustrating. I love it.

I think I have to agree with one of the chatters in last night's live "Lost" chat forum who said season 4 is shaping up to be as good as season 1 -- no mean feat for a show at this level of maturity. Others would be resorting to "very special episodes" or introducing mop-topped kids at this point in a bid to keep our interest.

Jen: Oh, you stole my thunder on "On the Road"! Dang you, Liz Kelly!

I actually would go one better -- I think this season is better than one because it's working on a basic level -- tight pacing, surprises, great action (can each episode start more strongly?) -- but the mythology is much more fully formed. So there are deeper levels at work than there were in season one.

Now that we have said this, next week will probably be an hour long ping-pong tournament.

Liz: Or, quite possibly, an hour of Kate and Sawyer playing house.

Jen: That might actually be a solid hour ... if this show were on Cinemax. I actually want to talk about Ben first.

Much more after the jump...

We left last episode with the main question being: What is going on with Ben and who is his man on the boat?

Liz: Right. That was the question coming out of last night's episode: Who is Ben ultimately targeting and why? His use of Sayid as an instrument of evil is diabolical and so significant considering Sayid's vow to never kill again. But it almost strikes me as a vendetta, rather than a matter of survival.

Jen: We still do not know the answer to that second question. Michael has been floated as a possible answer and I think that's a great guess. But here is what we do know: Ben can -- and has -- left the island.

Liz: Not only has he left the island, he seems to have made a mini-industry of it -- what with all those passports, money and vests.

Jen: Yes, Ben can and has left and is assuming at least one other identity: the above mentioned Dean Moriarty. To see what we mean, go to the good ol' "Lost" Easter eggs site and see their close-up on one of his passports.

It's been a while since I have read "On the Road," but the Wikipedia page reminds us that one of the opening lines in the book is: "With the coming of Dean Moriarty began the part of my life you could call my life on the road." It seems to me that line applies to Sayid; once he realizes who Ben is, he becomes his partner in crime and goes literally on the road -- to the Seychelles, to Berlin and God (or Damon Lindelof) knows where else -- to complete his missions for Ben. The question is why.

Liz: Blogger Doc Arzt noticed something interesting about the currency shown in Ben's secret room: the image on the currency was that of Michael Faraday, the physicist we mentioned last week. The one who is credited with inventing the "Faraday Cage."

Remember this from last week: "A Faraday cage or Faraday shield is an enclosure formed by conducting material, or by a mesh of such material. Such an enclosure blocks out external static electrical fields. Faraday cages are named after physicist Michael Faraday, who built one in 1836."

Which, of course, was first brought up because of the character Daniel Faraday (our jumpy physicist).

Jen: I have to wonder where that kind of currency can be used. Or what it can buy, besides awesome vests and a lot of African-style art. (See the walls of Ben's house).

Liz: Right. And copies of the Quran (Sayid noticed one on Ben's bookshelf). Speaking of Faraday...

We learned something new (at least to me) about him in the rebroadcast of last week's episode. The network has happily decided to caption the rebroadcast with interesting tidbits. One about Faraday was that the woman who calls him "Dan" in his introductory flash back/forward (?) was actually his caretaker. Who needs a caretaker? Sick people.

Jen: Right. We mentioned this in last night's chat. So clearly there is something up with Skinny D, though it only takes a pair of working eyes to see that. He weighs five pounds and he is nervous as a jackrabbit with a 15 painted on it.

Is it possible that D came to the island because he is ill and thought it might rejuvenate him? When Lapidus asked him if he wanted to go back to the freighter, he was in no hurry to leave.

Liz: Well, I took his desire to stay behind as an indication that he had more experiments he wanted to try.

Let's talk about Sayid's flash-forward. Is Elsa's employer (the man Sayid was trying to get to) Locke? Richard Alpert? Thomas Mittelwerk? The mysterious "RG"?

Jen: I am inclined to think that they are trying to get to Abaddon and the company he works for, since they seem to be intent on doing something sinister to or on the island. That company may be the Maxwell Group, which came up in the Find 815 game.

Liz: Yes, which is interesting because I'd argue that Ben is striking a pretty sinister pose himself -- what with menacing Sayid with threats about keeping his friends safe.

One thing we need to keep in mind as we watch the remaining episodes of this season (by the way, courtesy of the now working writers we'll have a total of 13 episodes this spring) is that Ben Linus makes it off this island. Whatever the freighter crew hopes to do to capture or kill him, we need to assume they are ultimately unsuccessful.

Jen: I think Ben has been making it off the island periodically for a while. Which makes me wonder if he was ever sick in the first place. If he could leave the island and get to what appears to be a vet clinic, surely he could seek medical treatment beyond Bailey's big brother from "Party of Five."

Liz: Right. Though allowing someone to do spinal surgery is going a bit far to keep up appearances.

I've done a cursory search and I'm coming up empty on the initials "R.G." -- those found on the bracelet worn by Naomi and, we assume, Elsa. Yet to be revealed?

Jen: I can't figure out RG either. But, having looked closely at the screenshots of the two bracelets, I don't think they are exactly the same. I think one triggered a flash in Sayid's mind, but they are not identical.

Liz: I would wager that they are made by the same jeweler or gifted by the same man.

Jen: Real quick re: Sayid's deal with Locke. They scanned over this quickly last night, but in order to get Charlotte back it appears that Sayid told Locke about Ben's super-awesome secret walk-in closet. Which means Locke can use this to turn the Others against Ben and become King of the Others.

Liz: Right. Sayid certainly did more than leave Miles there to get Locke to agree to release Charlotte. Oh, speaking of Miles, he was the target of one of Hurley's killer lines last night. When Miles called him "Tubby," Hurley shot back with "Oh great, the ship sent us another Sawyer."

Jen: That line was stellar. As was the reference to Sayid's breakdancing move.

Liz: Back to Sayid for a sec. At the end, Ben refers to someone else who knocked Sayid off his game and Sayid told Ben that was how he tricked him into working for him. Any ideas about what they could be referring to? Shannon? Sayid's Iraqi flashback love?

Jen: Yes, Ben says something about Sayid using his heart instead of his gun. So my best guess is that Nadia comes back into play somehow. Ben knows what pressure points to hit and Nadia is a big one with Sayid.

Liz: Right. And can I just say -- A+ for flash-forward Sayid. Yowza! Amazing what a well-tailored suit and a straightening iron can do.

Jen: Not to belabor the issue of the coffin from last season's finale, but I also wonder if Sayid might be the one who is in there.

Liz: Well, I started to assume that the coffin was either Sayid, Ben or someone who Ben targeted -- someone who the remaining Oceanic 6 would know by name.

Jen: If Jack and Kate know Sayid teamed up with Ben, that would explain the reticence about going to a funeral. And also explain Jack's extreme concern. I am not sure he would get that heartbroken over Ben's death.

Liz: So, let's talk about Daniel Faraday, time differences and "following the exact same bearings" on and off the island.

Jen: Yeah, the rocket being 31 minutes behind made me feel like I needed to reread "A Brief History of Time."

Liz: I sneaked a peek at Doc Jensen's post show review and he's got some typically convoluted theories about the time differential. Theories that are right up your alley. See, Doc thinks the times notes on the clock: 2:45 and 3:16 are biblical references.

"One said 3:16, while the other said 2:45. As it happens, Daniel 2:45 is the culmination of the story in which exiled Daniel earned an exalted place in King Nebuchadnezzar's court by interpreting a dream concerning the future of Babylon and how ''the fourth kingdom will be a divided kingdom.'' Hey -- that sounds like the fourth season of Lost! Meanwhile, Daniel 3:16 is part of the famous story of how Daniel's friends Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were thrown in the fiery furnace but were saved by God."

Jen: Wow, that's fascinating. I want to revisit something from the "Brief History" discussion. Someone brought up this really wild idea, which I will attempt to paraphrase.

That essentially at a certain point the universe begins to contract instead of continuing to expand. Since we are at the halfway point of the series -- and last season went through the looking glass -- perhaps the "Lost" universe is beginning to contract. When that happens, time as we know it goes out the window, which may explain why Desmond and perhaps Sayid see flashes from the future.

Liz: Hold on. I'm having some kind of "Lost"-induced seizure.

Okay. I think I understand you, but maybe someone out there with a better understanding of Hawking and the space-time continuum can comment on this.

Jen: I also am not sure we should assume the island is literally 31 minutes behind real time. I think the rocket was a clue that something funky is going on time-wise because of the electromagnetic issues on the island (see Skinny D's metal detector contraptions).

Liz: When Faraday's payload didn't make it to the island as expected despite Regina's report that it had reached Faraday's beacon my big blinking PARALLEL WORLD alert sign lit up. The light lit up again when Faraday (who I refuse to call Skinny D!) warned Frank (Lawnmower Man) to stay on the same heading when flying off the island... no matter what.

It's as if the freighters discovered a, ahem, "wrinkle in time" that allowed them to get to the island. A tesseract, if you will. Where's Mrs. Whatsit when we need her?

Jen: I completely agree. I also predict, right now, that Lawnmower Man does not stay on the bearings. I think something bad is going to happen to that helicopter, Sayid will survive but Desmond, I am not sure about it. Speaking of time, one other quick clue.

Jack says just before the payload shows up that he can't believe it's been 100 days since he has seen a Red Sox game. It's a funny, tossaway line. But we know there is no such thing on "Lost." Makes me wonder if it really has been 100 days that have gone by.

Liz: Right. I could be wrong, but I detected a pause and a furrowing of the brow from Frank when Jack said that.

Here's another idea to throw at you before we wrap up and one not necessarily directly related to last night's episode. I think you may have brought up Jacob's Ladder in previous analyses, but one reader over at Whitney Matheson's Pop Candy blog posits that the island could possibly be the mythic "bridge between heaven and earth" known as Jacob's Ladder. I know Lindecuse has dismissed the idea of the island as a kind of purgatory, but only in the sense of letting us know that the Losties are not necessarily dead. I mention this because I know you're fond of spiritual interpretations while I tend to err on the side of the scientific. So, what say you?

Jen: Well, as you know, I believe the spiritual themes are a huge, huge part of what is going on here. Although, in your dichotomy, this makes me Locke, which, given his behavior of late, makes me kind of nervous. It certainly seems like the ones who left the island of their free will have gone straight to their own personal hells.

So yes, I like it.

There are two more really crucial things I think we need to mention.

The first is the fact that Locke could not find Jacob's shack in last night's episode. The pop-up text shown in the rebroadcast of "Confirmed Dead" implied that one has to be "summoned" to Jacob's place. In other words, you can't just take 495 and hop off on the right exit and get there every time. The fact that Locke couldn't find it makes me wonder if he is losing some of his powers. And if, perhaps, Hurley is gaining them. In the future, he is the one seeing dead -- or here, but not here -- people like Charlie.

Liz: It made me wonder if Jacob -- or whatever it is that is pulling the strings -- is playing with Locke.

Jen: Well, we do not know whether Jacob is benevolent or evil. I'm erring on the side of benevolent, albeit kind of scary.

Which means he may summon the person he thinks has the most capacity to do good at a specific time. If Locke is misinterpreting what Jacob wants, Jacob may be saying, "Screw you, dude. I'm talking to good ol' fun times Hurley."

Liz: Here's another interesting, possibly meaningless tidbit. Blogger DocArzt seems to have viewed a preview screener of last night's episode that contained a deleted scene. Not much of a scene, but it does show that Miles was able to use his sixth sense to determine that the "fence" surrounding the barracks was not armed.

Jen: So here's my second and last observation: This season, we have not gotten any flashbacks that occur prior to the crash. In the first three seasons, with the exception of the finale, every flashback told us something about the character before they boarded the flight to help us understand who they were.

Now the flashbacks are telling us who they become later (for the most part, episode two was a bit of an anomaly because it introduced new characters). Again, further proof that the "Lost" universe is contracting and, in the end, we'll be back to some kind of square one.

Hopefully, if this is an optimistic show, a chance for everyone to redeem themselves and escape the hells they have found themselves in.

Liz: Right, though one (so why not me?) could argue that even the flash-forwards are informing what is the viewer's reality: Which is life on the island.

Jen: True. I'm just thinking in terms of how the looking glass changed everything. Once we passed through it, the construct of the narrative flipped.

Liz: So, next week's network press release reads: Kate's need to get information out of the hostage may jeopardize her standing with Locke -- as well as with Sawyer.

Till then.

By Liz Kelly  | February 15, 2008; 10:43 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

Sayid works for Ben? Love it. The show rocks...although it's even better after a few glasses of Wine at v-day dinner.

Posted by: Da Plane Da Plane | February 15, 2008 11:28 AM | Report abuse

random:

Sayid is the Angel of Death (willingly or not - please reference the reluctant "Loki" from "Dogma")

Ben's final line about being glad that "they" now know that he and Sayid are after them was reminiscent of the end of "The Matrix."

Maybe I'll have more later, once I can mull and/or rewatch the episode without squalling children interrupting the evening...

Posted by: just one more | February 15, 2008 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Oh, and "The Economist?" also parallels the Matrix's "The Architect."

Posted by: just one more | February 15, 2008 11:30 AM | Report abuse

Sayid back in civilization in a suit and that hair... what an episode!

Posted by: hot hot hot | February 15, 2008 11:30 AM | Report abuse

There was a large wad of Australian currency in the drawer in Ben's house. $20s, I believe.

Posted by: Aussie | February 15, 2008 11:30 AM | Report abuse

OK, the flash-forwards clearly show that those who get off the island are unhappy with their fates. My theory about the show is that at the very end the future timeline will be changed somehow (by Desmond maybe?) and the sad future fate will be changed. Because there's no way the viewers would stand to see the final episodes if we knew these flash forwards would stand as the fate of the Oceanic 6

Posted by: Plays in Traffic | February 15, 2008 11:32 AM | Report abuse

One thing on the 100 days -- keep in mind Jack was in Australia for some period of time before the crash, so he probably hadn't seen a game for a week or two (at least) before hitting the island.

Posted by: ah | February 15, 2008 11:33 AM | Report abuse

a quick comment on the time distortion...

there are a lot of fun google hits if you search "slowing of time" and "electromagnetism"...

In physics, apparently time can slow if subject to intense gravity or radiation. Also the grand unification theory (not quite complete) is about connecting all forces with one another. So by extension intense electromagnetism may slow time as well.

If these principles were in effect on the island, then time would move slower on the island than off it.

But I think it gets even better. If time moves more slowly off the island than on, then there would need to be a recalibration when leaving the island. So there would be certain space around the island where time moves faster than the rest of the world. In such space, one would reach adolescence fairly quickly. Walt, anyone?

Of course I'm not a physicist, I just play one in this forum. But the idea of slowing and speeding up of time is a well played on theory in physics and would explain a lot of the phenomena on the island.

Posted by: slk | February 15, 2008 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Now that Miles the ghost-whisperer is hanging out in Othertown, I'm guessing he'll have a lot of dead people to chat with. Kinda creepy.

Posted by: Xopher G. | February 15, 2008 11:42 AM | Report abuse

I don't think Sayid would have been able to use the information about Ben's secret closet to negotiate with Locke -- wouldn't Locke have seen the closet anyway, since Sayid was walking out of it when Locke (and others) surprised him in Ben's house?

Posted by: MGT | February 15, 2008 11:42 AM | Report abuse

Interesting comment, SLK. All the more relevent due to the nod to CS Lewis mentioned in last week's episode discussion (Charlotte's name is very similar). As you'll recall, time in Narnia flew by much faster than time in the real world.

Posted by: mtm | February 15, 2008 11:43 AM | Report abuse

My theory is that Michael, is Ben's spy on the boat!

Posted by: Randi | February 15, 2008 11:46 AM | Report abuse

If time really does move slower on the island, maybe that explains why Richard Alpert looks so youthful. Maybe the longer you spend on the island, the slower time moves for you? That would explain why Ben did age and Richard hasn't.

Posted by: Renee | February 15, 2008 11:48 AM | Report abuse

I can't help but think the characters might be traveling back and forth in time (that's a really imprecise way of phrasing what I mean, but I don't know enough of the science). For some reason I got the idea that Sayid is Ben's "man on the boat". Somehow perhaps Ben is immune to the time slow-down on the island and that is how he is has information before any of the other islanders do.
Also, in the seaon 3 finale, when Jack said to Kate "here we go again", it felt like a clue of some sort. Does this seem possible to anyone else?

Posted by: Maybe Crazy? | February 15, 2008 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Re: Jacob's Cabin. It was Ghost Walt that told Locke to go there. What does this say about the infallibility of the boy wonder? Is it Locke or Walt that has fallen out of favor with Jacob?

Nice calls, SLK and MTM on the electro-magno-chrono differential. It's been said that experiments by Michael Faraday the scientist showed the effects of magnetism on light waves, and Hawkins talked a lot about the relationship between time and light and gravity. Time is relative, remember, and one person's measurement of time can differ from another's depending on where the two are located and other science stuff that I won't even begin to claim to understand.

Posted by: Not Shlomo | February 15, 2008 11:58 AM | Report abuse

I would also suggest that the imploding of the hatch did something to impact the way that time passes. time may have been moving even more slowly before this "incident."

I am curious to know if something already transpired between ben and sayid when they were locked in the room together. do you think that sayid knows who the "man on the boat" might be? I am not in the camp that thinks it is michael - only because I am not sure why Michael would choose to be loyal to ben at this point. if he is on a freighter and can be saved, why would he remain loyal to ben? it is clear that Walt has either died (and is half-alive) or returned of his own free will.

and thanks sawyer for asking why kate would want to leave the island! I still don't get that and hope that next week will offer some answers to the mystery of kate. she of all people should want to stay.

so where is richard alpert?

Posted by: work man | February 15, 2008 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Liz, I'm glad to read I'm not the only one who lies awake late at night pondering the puzzles of this "dang" show.

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 12:05 PM | Report abuse

I think this season we will finally get some answers to all of these mysteries that have been plaguing us. The new additions to the island, I believe (as Mr. Abaddon implied), have a specific purpose.

Dan (physicist)- could certainly help unravel all the expirements that Dharma has been tinkering with, maybe even the black smoke as well.

Charlotte (anthropologist)- where did the Black Rock come from? and why do the statues only have 3 toes?

Miles (psychic of sorts)- many of the Losties have been seeing strange visions (Jacks dad, Kates horse, etc), maybe he will play the key role in finding Jacob, after all, he "conveniently" ended up on Locke's end.

Frank (pilot)- we know at least 7 people make it off the island (the Oceanic 6 plus Ben [who wouldnt count because he wasnt on the plane]).

Jen and Liz are right, this is shaping up to be the best (and tightest) season yet!

Posted by: Adam | February 15, 2008 12:05 PM | Report abuse

Okay, Oceanic 6:
Sayid, Hurley, Kate, Jack, Jack's Father, and Micheal.

He's alive, we all know it!

Posted by: kevin | February 15, 2008 12:07 PM | Report abuse

"so where is richard alpert?"

The actor who plays Alpert, Nestor Carbonell, is a cast member on "Cane."

Posted by: mark | February 15, 2008 12:10 PM | Report abuse

According to the latest research, the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

Posted by: Science Geek | February 15, 2008 12:10 PM | Report abuse

"But, having looked closely at the screenshots of the two bracelets, I don't think they are exactly the same."

The two screenshots in the link are of the same bracelet -- Naomi's.

Posted by: mark | February 15, 2008 12:12 PM | Report abuse

"One thing on the 100 days -- keep in mind Jack was in Australia for some period of time before the crash, so he probably hadn't seen a game for a week or two (at least) before hitting the island."

But in Australia he would at least be able to keep tabs on the team. He definitely was referring to his 100 days on the island. I, too, thought he got a strange look from the Pilot. And with the tight writing on this show, there's NO WAY that Jack's mention of the 100 days isn't an accident or just filler dialogue. I'm wondering if time on the island is not just a constant 31 minutes behind "reality" but maybe is constantly slipping further behind? So if over a few hours (not sure the exact time from Daniel's phone call with Regina to the payload actually showing up, but probably a few hours) the island slips 31 minutes behind, over 100 days, it would be a lot further behind.... Maybe it's been a year in "reality" time but only 100 days on the island.

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 12:17 PM | Report abuse

ok, looks like SLK and others have more scientifically spelled that out already. but i definitely agree and i like how you all have linked it to the possible agelessness of alpert and the Tall Ghost Walt.
- anon at 12:17

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 12:18 PM | Report abuse

I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?

Posted by: VAtoLA | February 15, 2008 12:18 PM | Report abuse

Hey Jen - just wanted to say thanks for resurrecting my idea about the collapsing "Lost" universe. You did a great job of summarizing it.

Speaking of time, the diference in the clocks that Daniel compares is 31 minutes. My question to those more scientific and mathematically inclined - is the Island 31 minutes out of sync or is that a ratio in that if one minute passes on the Island 31 minutes pass in the outside world? If that's the case then how far out of whack is the Island universe with ours. I wonder if the Island is a bubble universe (I saw that once on Star Trek: The Next Generation) where time is going at a different rate.

Now a switch from the profound to the ridiculous. Was I the only one who wondered at the wisdom of conducting an experiement that involves hurtling a piece of metal that close to a helicopter? When that's your only means of return/escape I thought the incoming cylinder came too close to the copter for my taste. If it had hit the rotors then everyone would have to wait for the next freighter to come by.

dre7861

Posted by: dre7861 | February 15, 2008 12:21 PM | Report abuse

I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?

Posted by: VAtoLA | February 15, 2008 12:18 PM

Well, the fact that Oceanic 815 had been "found" and then the Oceanic 6 "rose from the dead" would probably freak a whole lotta people out. They may be celebs now but I'm sure some people just aren't buying whatever cover up story they are telling.

Posted by: Lost at Work | February 15, 2008 12:23 PM | Report abuse

"The Economist" episode begins w/ Sayid in the Seychelles. Do you think the writers of _Lost_ are aware that two of the islands in that archipelago just happen to be named Benjamim (as in Linus) and St. Anne's (as in Ben's childhood friend Annie)?

Posted by: HarryMerkin | February 15, 2008 12:23 PM | Report abuse

HarryMerkin - That is why the writers/creators of this show are GENIUS.

Posted by: Lost at Work | February 15, 2008 12:25 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone else think that Regina's voice (on the freighter) sounds a lot like Naomi? Could it be Naomi? Naomi's braclet says "I'll be with you forever. R.G." Kind of a strange thing to engrave on a braclet. The "R" could be Regina. She could have given the braclet to herself, maybe as an inside joke (i.e., you will always be with yourself). When Miles called the boat to inform them of Naomi's death, Miles wanted to talk to Minkowski, possibly to avoid Regina finding out over the phone.

Posted by: Elmo | February 15, 2008 12:35 PM | Report abuse

mark - scroll down for the shot of Elsa's bracelet on her wrist.

Man, I have so many questions & comments I can't even begin. Are we sure Naomi's bracelet said "RG"? I couldn't decide if that was a G or a C.

Posted by: Different Liz | February 15, 2008 12:36 PM | Report abuse

I'm going to go out on a limb here, pushed little by Liz and her quasi-spoiler: I think the other two Oceanic 6 are Sun and Jin. Since Sun got preggers on the Island and will most likely die if she tries to give birth there, to prevent this from happening, she and Jin get a ride on the freighter and Golden Tickets from Oceanic.

Posted by: Not Shlomo | February 15, 2008 12:36 PM | Report abuse

Am I the only one who prefers sexy island Sayid to flat-ironed Sayid?

Posted by: jes | February 15, 2008 12:39 PM | Report abuse

What if Ben and Kate are together? Not Kate and Sawyer.

Posted by: ewwwwww | February 15, 2008 12:41 PM | Report abuse

Oooh, Elmo, I was thinking the same thing about Regina sounding an awful lot like Naomi! Then I thought maybe Naomi *did* have a sister & Miles was making that stuff about the code up, since Daniel didn't seem to have a clue of what he was talking about.

Posted by: Different Liz | February 15, 2008 12:41 PM | Report abuse

Oceanic 6: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sawyer and Locke

My thoughts: Ben somehow is the key to the 6 leaving the island. Obviously, the other Losties are left behind. But for reasons to be explained the island and its secrets need to be protected, and the 6 are guilted or forced to keep it that way.

Jack wants to keep it that way at first, and is happy to be back, but he feels guilty, and wants to go back.

Kate avoids the law, or is pardoned, ends up with Sawyer and tries to live a happy life.

Hurley goes nuts, sees the visions and just wants to be left alone.

Ben knows Sayid is the only one who can protect him and help protect the island, owes Ben for getting him off, and (in the future) does his dirty work.

Sawyer, despite not wanting to leave, changes his mind when his future with Kate becomes reality.

And just for fun Locke is forced from the island. Btw, he's the one in the coffin...

Posted by: AMS | February 15, 2008 12:41 PM | Report abuse

Michael Faraday was featured on the British 20-pound note from 1991-2001. It's still legal tender. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jbourj/money1.htm
How convenient.

Posted by: John | February 15, 2008 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, ?, ?.

I think it would be a great twist if John Locke were one of the Oceanic 6.

But for the safe bet, I'm going with Michael (I think he's on the freighter - though not sure if he's precisely "ben's man" - and eventually leaves with the other 5) and Sun (to have her baby in the regular world in hopes of saving the pregnancy... if she stays on the island, she definitely dies).

I like Desmond, but I think his chances these days are slim for survival. I'm betting he gets "offed" on the freighter. Sorry brotha.

Posted by: hello neuman | February 15, 2008 12:44 PM | Report abuse

I like Sayid all cleaned up, except I'm not sure about his Opera Man hairdo later in the episode.

Also, the coffee shop he meets Elsa in is called 'The Wall' in German. Which I guess isn't any big thing since he's close to where the wall actually stood, but I'm sure there's all kinds of symbolic significance there. Also with Potsdammer Platz being in no-man's land for years.

Posted by: Different Liz | February 15, 2008 12:48 PM | Report abuse

I'm not 100% convinced that was Ben in Sayid's flash forward. Sayid never actually used his name, and he looked somehow younger to me. Was he a "bad twin"? A duplicate or doppelganger caused by crossing over the island border? Smokey/Walt/Christian Shepherd?

I'm not saying it wasn't Ben either. Just that I feel like they were being intentionally vague about his identity, and a misdirect wouldn't surprise me at all.

Posted by: Adam | February 15, 2008 12:48 PM | Report abuse

Farady used to be on the 20 pound note from the Bank of England until he was replaced by the conductor Elgar

Posted by: araxie | February 15, 2008 12:50 PM | Report abuse

Several of the postings take it as given that the freighter is the way they get off the island. Why? For one thing it's too obvious, which this show never is, for another, Ben has been clear that the intention of the "boat people" isn't to save anybody.

Posted by: witchy | February 15, 2008 12:50 PM | Report abuse

As far as time goes...I think it's pretty good bet that time off the island is at real-world speed (i.e. for the people on the freighter, it's 2007-2008) and for the Losties it's still 100 days after the crash, or 2004.

Has anyone checked out car models, or other clues as to what year it is in the flash forwards? The flash forwards are taking place pretty soon after the Oceanic 6 return, judging from the fact that EVERYONE knows who they are, and I'm also convinced that the flash forwards are taking place around present day. Assuming the Oceanic 6 get off the island this season, my time theory would fit.

Posted by: jw | February 15, 2008 12:50 PM | Report abuse

Q: I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?

Posted by: VAtoLA | February 15, 2008 12:18 PM

A: Well, the fact that Oceanic 815 had been "found" and then the Oceanic 6 "rose from the dead" would probably freak a whole lotta people out. They may be celebs now but I'm sure some people just aren't buying whatever cover up story they are telling.

Posted by: Lost at Work | February 15, 2008 12:23 PM

I'd also add that after Sayid mentioned he was one of the Oceanic 6, he (Sayid) killed the golfer (whose name, IIRC was Avion, which is French for airplane). Of course, Sayid just didn't decide to kill him for the fun of it, he was on "the list". The golfer may have known this and *that's* why he got upset and tried to leave.

Posted by: Sam F. | February 15, 2008 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Re: "I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?"

That golfer obviously was involved someone with either the crash or the island, as Sayid was there to kill him, on mission directed by Ben, as we learn at the end. They don't say explicitly that golfer was a target but he obviously was, as Sayid knew what he was doing, came prepared to kill him and then did so. That's why he was creeped out. As for people being frightened by Hurley, he was super erratic and just engaged police on a high-speed chase. I'd be a little apprehensive talking to him as well.

The theories on time acceleration/deceleration are strong, I believe. It would answer a lot of questions, but of course raise more.

Posted by: Holly | February 15, 2008 12:53 PM | Report abuse

I'm pretty sure Jack asked the pilot about the World Series and the line is just "filler". Remember he saw the video tape of the victory while being held by the Others. Obviously after dealing with them he's probably just a wee bit skeptical... I would guess the writers are Sox fans and love giving it to even a fictional Yankees fan.

Posted by: baseball | February 15, 2008 12:55 PM | Report abuse

Are we sure that Jack and Kate are one of the Oceanic 6? I mean yeah, they are off the island, but they have never claimed to be one of them yet. I am all full of weird theories today so bear with me. But I think that there is a possibility that there are more than just the six of them off the island and that there are six who are considered to be "special" in some way....but thats just me going out on a limb.

Posted by: VAtoLA | February 15, 2008 12:55 PM | Report abuse

"Has anyone checked out car models, or other clues as to what year it is in the flash forwards? The flash forwards are taking place pretty soon after the Oceanic 6 return, judging from the fact that EVERYONE knows who they are, and I'm also convinced that the flash forwards are taking place around present day. Assuming the Oceanic 6 get off the island this season, my time theory would fit."

In the Season 3 finale, a huge clue that we were seeing a flaskforward Jack was his cool sleek phone (I think it was a Krzr or something that had just come out). Though we're actually not sure from that, or any, flash forward how far forward they actually are. Could be a month, could be years. And Hurley's comment to Jack of "you still getting asked to sign autographs?" in the HORSE game makes me think that it's been long enough taht the initial craze of them being back has worn off, but they're still not completely yesterday's news. Like, (in Celebritology terms) maybe they're now B-List stars.

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 12:55 PM | Report abuse

I'm pretty sure Jack asked the pilot about Q: the World Series and the line is just "filler". Remember he saw the video tape of the victory while being held by the Others. Obviously after dealing with them he's probably just a wee bit skeptical... I would guess the writers are Sox fans and love giving it to even a fictional Yankees fan.

A: Yes, but he SPECIFICALLY mentioned "I can't believe it's been 100 days since I've seen them play." In the world of Lost (combined with the "Payload" clock difference), that ain't filler.

Posted by: Quiz Master | February 15, 2008 12:59 PM | Report abuse

I agree - I think someone's a Red Sox fan & his confirming that they won the World Series was a shout-out to their winning again this year!

I don't think the golfer's name was Avion. I actually turned my close-captioning on to see what it said, and (of course I can't remember) it was something like Avallino or something. And of course, I can't seem to find his name anywhere on the web.

Posted by: Different Liz | February 15, 2008 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Not Shlomo - actually I think that it was figured out that Sun got pregnant BEFORE she got to the island. There was that episode with all the flashbacks and at the end of the episode Juliette was able to do an ultrasound and determine that the fetus was old enough that she would have gotten pregnant before landing on the island. However KATE got pregnant on the island, so she is at risk. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about her pregnancy this season.

Posted by: Andrea | February 15, 2008 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Could Naomi's bracelet's NG be a reference to Sayid's love, Nadia? I don't know if we've learned her last name. Also, could Sayid's idea to take Naomi's body with them on the helicopter be the "heart " mistake Ben refers to? If the island can bring the dead to life, wouldn't she have fared better there? In the real world, her body would already be crawling with maggots and flies.

Posted by: Scandibabay | February 15, 2008 1:04 PM | Report abuse

:::I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?:::

Did anyone catch the name of the man Sayid shot on the golf course? I swear he said something like Mr. Avalon (Credited as the Italian Man on the cast list)? And later, I thought Elsa said something about Avalon or the same name I'd heard earlier so I was wondering if the man he killed on the course was Elsa's "employer". Sayid was originally trying to get to him through her and he was presumably on "the list" of people he needed to kill. Even though he killed Elsa, she had already warned someone about Sayid so that person needed to be killed, too (esp.if they were on the list, right?).

If the Italian man was Elsa's boss and he had been warned about Sayid/knew Sayid was looking for him-- when he realized who he was talking to on the golf course, perhaps that is why he was so freaked out.

I also think it is entirely possible that while we are getting flash forwards now, some of the flash forwards may occur out of sequence. It would get boring if we could predict the pattern of the scenes off the island, no?

Anyway, no one had mentioned that so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Posted by: apfromal | February 15, 2008 1:05 PM | Report abuse

maybe kate decides to leave the island when she finds out that she too is pregnant. the avoidance of death is the only possibility that I can see for her actually wanting the leave the island.

Posted by: kate | February 15, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Actually, I think they proved that Sun got pregnant *on* the island - she was really happy b/c that meant it was Jin's, but also really sad b/c that meant it was probably her death warrant.

Posted by: Different Liz | February 15, 2008 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Q: Not Shlomo - actually I think that it was figured out that Sun got pregnant BEFORE she got to the island. There was that episode with all the flashbacks and at the end of the episode Juliette was able to do an ultrasound and determine that the fetus was old enough that she would have gotten pregnant before landing on the island. However KATE got pregnant on the island, so she is at risk. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about her pregnancy this season.

A: Nope, this is completely backwards. Sun got pregnant ON THE ISLAND, which Juliette confirmed. There was a question that her lover impregnated her off the island (since she and Jin had not recently slept together off island), but it turned out to be not the case by Juliet's estimates. Sun was crying and happy at the findings because it was Jin's baby, though that is currently being overshadowed by the fact that she is in danger because no woman has successfully conceived and then given birth on the island.

And we still have no idea if Kate is pregnant. It's a possibility since she was with Sawyer, but still unknown.

Posted by: Quiz Master | February 15, 2008 1:11 PM | Report abuse

I completely agree - the show has absolutely gotten back on track, as evidenced by the fact that I say "WTF?!?" at least five times per episode.

re: Jacob's shack - why did the gunpowder/ashy stuff stay, but the cabin didn't? Also, isn't Locke going to feel even more threatened by Hurley because he DOES know where it's at now? Or was that whole thing between them just an aside so that we'd buy into hostage-Hurley?

Posted by: 12345 | February 15, 2008 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Q: I agree - I think someone's a Red Sox fan & his confirming that they won the World Series was a shout-out to their winning again this year!

A: Yup, could very well be a shout out, but why not end with just "Did they really win? Yes? Alright!" They took it further with the 100 days comment for a reason.

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

I keep hearing people say that locke feels threatened by hurley seeing the cabin, but I swear (in rewatching last week's episode) that locke smiles when hurley mentions that he has seen the cabin. it is ben who looks shocked.

Posted by: john locke is good | February 15, 2008 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Oh, I absolutely agree with the 100 days comment meaning something!

Thank god for DVRs - I always have to go back & watch the whole episode again after all the stuff brought up here.

Posted by: Different Liz | February 15, 2008 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Q: Could Naomi's bracelet's NG be a reference to Sayid's love, Nadia? I don't know if we've learned her last name. Also, could Sayid's idea to take Naomi's body with them on the helicopter be the "heart " mistake Ben refers to? If the island can bring the dead to life, wouldn't she have fared better there? In the real world, her body would already be crawling with maggots and flies.

A: The bracelet say RC. Not NG. Keep up people!

Posted by: Quiz Master | February 15, 2008 1:17 PM | Report abuse

I just realized that an anagram of Mittelos is Lost Time. Wonder if this is another Lindecuse tease.

Posted by: doobrah | February 15, 2008 1:20 PM | Report abuse

oops! I meant RG. Keep up Quiz Master!

Posted by: Quiz Master | February 15, 2008 1:22 PM | Report abuse

So, if I remember correctly, when Farraday is initially looking for the 'payload', he is looking one direction, but when it lands, it comes in from the direction opposite from where he was looking (?)Is this right? Is it insignificant?

Also, I am wondering if Ben has been cloned?

Posted by: Teak | February 15, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Absolutley great episode. I too had trouble sleeping, in fact waking up at 3 am to rethink the show again. I'm scaring myself now, not just the rest of the family : - ) The good news re Richard Alpert is that I heard this week that Cane is not going to be renewed. Since Jen/Liz reported that there will be 5 more episodes shot this year (making 13 total) then perhaps we will see Richard Alpert back in a later episode. They can then use him as a vehicle to explain the Black Rock since I believe he arrived on the Island along with that ship.

Posted by: emcdoj | February 15, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Wait, Andrea. Wasn't it an "Island Miracle" that Sun got pregnant? Just like Locke walking again? So she couldn't have been knocked up before coming to the Island. Right?

Witchy: Good argument on the freighter being a red herring as a means of rescue. There may well be another route for them to leave, say, I don't, a submarine, perhaps?

Posted by: Not Shlomo | February 15, 2008 1:29 PM | Report abuse

Sun definitely got pregnant by Jin ON THE ISLAND.

Posted by: Lost at Work | February 15, 2008 1:30 PM | Report abuse

I agree that time on the island is moving slower than off the island. The powerful electromagnetic field on the island is the cause. While he know the losties believe they've been on the island 90+ days the rescuers have made no mention of the date. I suspect its actually been a few years. But not too long since Jack's ex-wife was not noticeably older in the flash forward from last season. Also, the list of people Sayid and Ben are killing are likely Dharma/Hanso people who are trying to figure out what happened on the island. The German woman was seducing Sayid to get him to talk about the island.

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 1:38 PM | Report abuse

DO WE REALLY KNOW IF ALL OF THOSE PASSPORTS WERE BEN'S? JUST WONDERING IF IT WAS SOME COLLECTION THAT HE MAY HAVE...LET ME KNOW IF I'M WAY OUTTA WACK

Posted by: Heather | February 15, 2008 1:41 PM | Report abuse

I also noticed the 100 days comment... 100 (3 months) days seems like an awfully short amount of time for Frank Lapidus to spiral out of control post-plane-I-was-supposed-to-fly crash, develop a drinking problem, move to the Bahamas, find a new job, memorize the entire passenger manifest, get recruited by Abaddon and co, and ship out to the middle of wherever.

Posted by: alex | February 15, 2008 1:42 PM | Report abuse

"While he know the losties believe they've been on the island 90+ days the rescuers have made no mention of the date. I suspect its actually been a few years."

This would make sense since Lapidus is a bit too hairy to have been the original pilot for the Oceanic flight. Airlines employees have to be clean cut, and it would have taken Lapidus a lot longer than 100 days to get that scruffy.

Posted by: Doobrah | February 15, 2008 1:48 PM | Report abuse

Someone above asked if we know if Jack is really one of the O6.

When he is talking to Kate at the airport he says he uses his Golden Ticket to fly somewhere every Friday night, hoping it will crash and he can go back.

Posted by: O6 | February 15, 2008 1:51 PM | Report abuse

Best line ever--
Liz: Hold on. I'm having some kind of "Lost"-induced seizure.

Posted by: lcwilson78 | February 15, 2008 1:53 PM | Report abuse

I like the wrinkle in time theory, because it conveniently explains how Walt--who has been off the Island--could have aged between the time they last saw him and he urged Locke to get up. So if time moves more slowly on the Island than in the rest of the world, Walt could be 3 years older even though Jack thinks it's only been 100 days.

Posted by: ref | February 15, 2008 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Someone referenced Kates' pregnancy. Have they said she is pregnant? If Kate is pregnant, then my guess is the "him" she has to get back to in the flashforward is her son.

I would guess Sun and Jin are part of the Oceanic 6, given her pregnancy and that all women who get pregnant on the island die.

Posted by: Cliff | February 15, 2008 2:04 PM | Report abuse

I can't place the accent of the golfer that Sayid kills - any ideas? It sounded to me like his name was pronounced "Avenue" to me.

Posted by: 12345 | February 15, 2008 2:06 PM | Report abuse

I think Ben was referring to Sayid trusting Hurley in Ben's house when he said he was fooled by following his emotions.

Also, if time slows down on the island, wouldn't it have taken longer for Claire to have the baby?

Posted by: roxygirl | February 15, 2008 2:19 PM | Report abuse

"Also, if time slows down on the island, wouldn't it have taken longer for Claire to have the baby?"

Dur...did you miss the day they spent teaching special relativity in advanced physics???

To an outside observer (the freighter) time is moving more slowly on the island. On the island, however, time appears to be normal. So clair had her baby within the expected time frame, but to someone off the island, it may have taken months or even a year to give birth.

This would all be more plausible if the island was actually a space-craft traveling at near light speed.

Posted by: jw | February 15, 2008 2:37 PM | Report abuse

The golfer's name is Mr. Avellino.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Economist

Posted by: Not Shlomo | February 15, 2008 2:37 PM | Report abuse

A: The bracelet say RC. Not NG. Keep up people!

Posted by: Quiz Master | February 15, 2008 01:17 PM

Okay, I messed up by misremembering the R as an N, but you've messed up thinking that it says RC not RG. Even our dueling analysts agree it's an RG! Keep up people, indeed. I think some of the better comments get posted to J. Wood's blog at Powell's.com.


Posted by: scandibaby | February 15, 2008 2:39 PM | Report abuse

::I can't place the accent of the golfer that Sayid kills - any ideas? It sounded to me like his name was pronounced "Avenue" to me.::

He's credited as "Italian Man". I thought his name was something that sounded like "Avalon" and also that I heard Elsa say the same name later in the episode, so I wondered if he was her "employer" that Sayid was supposed to kill.

Posted by: apfromal | February 15, 2008 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Could the RG on the bracelet be somehow related to the real Henry Gayle whose balloon crashed onto the island?

Posted by: cottagemom | February 15, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

There's a musical (can't remember the name) about a Scottish town that appears once every hundred years or so. When it appears, people from outside can enter it, but they can stay only a short time before the town disappears again. Clearly there's a time lag between the island and the freighter...perhaps Daniel is measuring how much time they have before the island disappears again?

Posted by: ckf | February 15, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

The clock-on-a-projectile test was Faraday's version of the classic Hafele-Keating experiment, where atomic clocks were placed in planes which flew around the world, then the time on the plane clocks were compared to clocks which remained on the ground. Since Einstein was right, the time on the clocks didn't match!

However, the difference on those clocks was measured in tiny fractions of seconds, and our payload experiment came up with 31 minutes!

So, there's got to be something else going on, other than just relativistic effects, but I thought I should mention it.

Posted by: pgomes@y! | February 15, 2008 2:43 PM | Report abuse


from Lostpedia:

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Mr._Avellino

Doesn't mention anything about a connection between this man and Elsa but I still think there must be. I'll have to watch again tonight to see if I hear her say that name during the episode.

Posted by: apfromal | February 15, 2008 2:47 PM | Report abuse

PREVIOUS: This would make sense since Lapidus is a bit too hairy to have been the original pilot for the Oceanic flight. Airlines employees have to be clean cut, and it would have taken Lapidus a lot longer than 100 days to get that scruffy.

ME: About Frank's scruffyness. I bet this has been dealt with on other message boards, but I am too lazy to look. How is Locke's head always perfectly shaven? What about Jack's beard always being at the post crash length? I am surprised I never thought about these things much before, but last night, for some unknown reason, they came to my mind and bothered me. Ok, so time movement might explain it. But its still been 90 island days. I know that my beard would grow a lot in 90 days! Does the Island affect people's physiology?

Also, it just occurred to me, unless there is a big deception going on as to when Ben came to the island, he came in the hippy 60s, as a kid, thus he has aged at a normal rate. Maybe the trips off the island have contributed to this, but his age doesnt seem far off from what it should be.

Posted by: JF2 | February 15, 2008 2:52 PM | Report abuse

Somebody theorized that Daniel discovered that one island minute is 31 minutes off the island, since the clock in the canister was 31 minutes faster. so this got me thinking.

If one island minute is 31 regular minutes then 100 days for the Losties - as Jack makes reference too with the pilot - is appx. 8 1/2 years in the real world. This would explain how the freighter crew has those futuristic sat phones, and why Walt is considerably older, and why the pilot gives Jack a look when he mentions its only been 100 days.

Posted by: bolevar2382 | February 15, 2008 2:58 PM | Report abuse

I don't know about anyone else, but I had total flashbacks of back to the future when daniel held the two stopwatches next to each other.

Posted by: doc brown | February 15, 2008 3:00 PM | Report abuse

ckf - the musical you're referring to is brigadoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigadoon)

Posted by: gk | February 15, 2008 3:08 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps the time discrepancy explains the reason why women cannot carry a baby full-term on the island...it develops at too slow a rate.

Posted by: sas | February 15, 2008 3:09 PM | Report abuse

I still think it's 2004 off the island. If you go back toe the screen caps from last week, where Miles does his ghostbusting there's a basketball schedule on the wall and the year 2004 is pretty clear. Now, perhaps the poster is 3 years old, but it's more consistent with the ghostbusting taking place in 2004, and 815 was found in 2004.

Posted by: ah | February 15, 2008 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Re: time on/off the island - think of it this way... we, in TV land, have spent 3-4 years watching "Lost" and the plot involving the Losties and the Others and everyone else has only advanced 100 +/- days.

(now, why that exactly is will be up to smarter persons than I to explain, as we've been seeing in these posts)

also, the whole thing about Naomi's and Elsa's bracelets... I don't think that it was the same bracelet per se, but identical bracelets given to two members of... what? Abaddon's crew? This obviously makes me think that Naomi and Elsa are linked (they're working for the same person or group), that both of them are bad guys, and that for some reason these bad guys are underlings to someone(s)/something bigger that Ben is trying to destroy.

Posted by: just one more | February 15, 2008 3:10 PM | Report abuse

just because the boat watch was 31 minutes ahead does not mean that one lostie minute is 31 real world minutes

Posted by: H | February 15, 2008 3:11 PM | Report abuse

Re the time theory - so how long does that make it that Penny has been looking for Desmond, since he has been on the island for a few years. 10 years? She didn't look 10 years older when she was talking to Charlie.

Posted by: cw | February 15, 2008 3:16 PM | Report abuse

1. My opinion is that the "flash-forwards" actually constitute a possible alternate future reality, one that could occur if certain things do/do not happen on the present-reality island.
2. Jacob..."Jacob's Ladder." Hello?

Posted by: BM | February 15, 2008 3:16 PM | Report abuse

I thought time is moving faster not slower on the island. Its 3:16 on the island and 2:45 on the rocket. Which means 31 island minutes for 1 outside world minute.
Then again, maybe it is slower. How about this?
When Jack asks Lapidus "Did the Red Sox really win the World Series?", Jack was referring to the 2004 World Series. Maybe Lapidus is talking about the 2007 Series (which the Red Sox also won).

Posted by: Bowie | February 15, 2008 3:20 PM | Report abuse

All this reminds me of a book I read as a teenager called "Singularity" by William Sleator. It's about 2 identical twin teenage boys who discover a cabin (yes, a cabin!!) where time runs faster than in the outside world. The shyer twin gets sick of the bully twin & spends 'one night' (which = 1 year) in the cabin, so he comes out the next morning & he's basically gone through puberty, so he's bigger than his other twin. There's a lot more to it, but I haven't read it in years. I wonder if that book has anything to do with anything?

Posted by: Different Liz | February 15, 2008 3:29 PM | Report abuse

i think that there is an underlying assumption to many theories here and elsewhere that the +ending+ of the show is that the characters (four we know so far plus Ben) get off the island. Prior to the Season 3 finale, that was a fair assumption. But i thnk the flash forwards are just another point of time in the show. The final ending of the show will be the characters going back to the island and staying there, or finally leaving the island without secrets and bad vibes hanging over them, or something else. The post-island scenes are not showing us the unhappy end of the show but another point in time for these characters.

Posted by: lost_time | February 15, 2008 3:31 PM | Report abuse

From Wikipedia on Brigadoon -- "It tells the story of a mysterious Scottish village that appears for only one day every hundred years, though to the villagers, the passing of each century seems no longer than one night. The enchantment is viewed by them as a blessing rather than a curse, for it saved the village from destruction. According to their covenant with God, no one from Brigadoon may ever leave, or the enchantment will be broken and the site and all its inhabitants will disappear into the mist forever. Two American tourists, lost in the Highlands, stumble upon the village just as a wedding is about to be celebrated, and their arrival has serious implications for the village's inhabitants."

Posted by: ckf | February 15, 2008 3:35 PM | Report abuse

I just have to say that I will never be watching this stupid-a** show again because Jack is a Red SUX fan. I think its ridicljous that the writers are trying to shove the red SUX nation down our throats, whatever happened to the 2nd ammendemnt of america taht states that we can believe anything we want. ut just aleinates allt he yankee fans, and i know taht me freinds and i will no longer be watching this biased piece of garbage!!

Posted by: Nikki Holmes | February 15, 2008 3:38 PM | Report abuse

If the "time is slowing down on the island" is totally correct, then how old would Rouseau or Desmond be? Why would Penny not look more aged as we saw her video in the looking glass station?

Instead, is it possible that time has only been slowing down since the hatch imploded? I don't know the number of days this happened at, but at least it would add a bit more plausability to the theory.

Posted by: berndog | February 15, 2008 3:43 PM | Report abuse

"Somebody theorized that Daniel discovered that one island minute is 31 minutes off the island"

That would only be true if one minute had passed on the island (ground) timer and thirty-one on the freighter (projectile) timer. Unless I'm way off, the times were 31 minutes apart, but not at a 1-to-31 ratio. Does anyone have screen captures of the two clocks?

Posted by: J | February 15, 2008 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Just because they keep mentioning the Oceanic 6 doesn't mean that more people didn't leave the island, it just means that only 6 people from the PLANE make it off the island. If Ben, Juliet and Desmond make it off.. they're not part of the Oceanic 6 because they weren't ON THE PLANE.

Posted by: jennifer | February 15, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Bowie - excellent point about the Red Sox having also won the 2007 World Series. For all we know (at this point), that's the one the pilot thinks Jack is talking about, not the '04 Series.

Someone else asked why Locke's head is always shaved -- early on in this series, I remember a scene that showed Locke shaving his head with one of the many hunting knives he had in his luggage.

Finally, for those still pondering the Charlotte Lewis/CS Lewis angle, I suggest looking not to the Narnia books, but to his "Perelandra" sci-fi trilogy ("Out of the Silent Planet," "Perelandra," and "That Hideous Strength") - especially the first and third books in that series. Among other things, these books include a possible model for the smoke monster on "Lost."

Posted by: Doc | February 15, 2008 3:47 PM | Report abuse

OK...Elsa says on the phone "I expected your call 30 minutes ago"...
I believe that time is different on the island and thats why everyone's so freaked out by the "6". Faraday comments on how different light looks on the island, like its bent.
I think the copter ride goes horribly wrong and triggers the Indian Ocean tsunami of Dec 26, 2004.

Posted by: NanFan56 | February 15, 2008 3:53 PM | Report abuse

Here's an aspect of the time difference issue no one has mentioned. If time on the boat (off the island) moves faster or at least differently than time on the island, how are the people on the island able to hold perfectly normal-sounding real-time phone conversations with people on the boat? I would think there would have to be some sort of delay in the back-and-forth conversation because it should take a while for the people on the boat to hear the responses of the people on the island, but there is not.

Posted by: gig | February 15, 2008 3:54 PM | Report abuse

So who won the captioning contest last week? Or is the winner actually existing on another time/space continuum that we can't experience?

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Sayid comments to the German girl about how the pager is outdated technology; she respons "I've tried, but he's very old fashioned... you know how bosses can be." Later she talks to him on a cell phone. Why would anyone use a pager and what do they mean by "old fashioned"? Is this a clue as to the identity of Boss?

Frank to Daniel, who wants to use the phone to call Regina for his experiment: "If Michowski(sp?) gets on there, you hang up right away." Who is this?

Posted by: 2 Questions | February 15, 2008 4:03 PM | Report abuse

what about claire leaving the island? according to desmond's vision of charlie's death in the looking glass station, claire leaves the island on a helicopter. is she one of the oceanic 6? aaron wouldn't count as one of the oceanic 6 because he *technically* wasn't a passenger on the plane.

Posted by: lloosstt | February 15, 2008 4:22 PM | Report abuse

The Bracelet's Message:
-Although I'm not sure how this thought fits in to the plot, let me add a little wild speculation as to what the bracelet's message means. But first, from the screencap, so that there is no more confusion as to what it says:

"N, I'll always be with you, R.G."

Maybe this is a code for: "Nadia, I'll always be with you, Republican Guard."

Again, no idea how this fits in the plot if it were to be correct, but I thought I'd launch this trial balloon to see others with far more "Lost" knowledge hash this out.

Some other tidbits to chew on:
-There must be a reason that Sayyid is so affected by the bracelet, this suggests familiarity with it;
-The bracelet doesn't appear to be particularly feminine, maybe a man's jewelry? Unisex?
-Separate from whatever is the meaning of the bracelet's message: Since Sayyid's german adventure occurs in the future after he gets off the island, his running into the bracelet on Ilse/Elsa suggests that Naomi's body is delivered to someone (presumably Abaddon?) who then provides the bracelet to Ilse/Elsa, suggesting a connection between the two women (employer, colleagues?).
-No idea what that could mean to the plot, but nothing is supefluous anymore (I also realize this poses a serious conflict with my speculation on the meaning of the bracelet. Again, I did say it is wild speculation);
-This bracelet exchange suggests that the trip to the freighter was successful, since Naomi's body is on the helicopter, and the bracelet ends up with Ilse/Elsa later on;
-Lastly, this bracelet exchange lends some (albeit perhaps paper-thin) credence to the idea that Ilse/Elsa was connected to Abaddon in some way (maybe through an unseen third party?) and that Abaddon, or someone he is associated with are on Sayyid's list as provided by Ben.
-Ben is naturally malicious/ruthless, but at the end of the episode during his conversation with Sayyid, I really think his desire to eliminate the people on the list is motivated by revenge--so was Abaddon successful in damaging/destroying the island? Or able to prevent Ben from returning?

Re: Island is Eden Theory (which I really like, btw):
-Is Ben the snake, or the tree of knowledge (he does seem to know everything)?
-Are the Oceanic Six a metaphor for Adam and Eve being cast out of paradise? Hence their longing to get back/repent (See Jack's desperate hope to crash on his subsequent flights with the golden ticket)?
-If so, what was the "forbidden fruit" they sampled that got them exiled from paradise?
-Could it be that their unwavering desire to leave the island is the equivalent of rejecting any faith in the notion that they are on the island "for a reason," (note how all the passengers are somehow connected) and that they are supposed to stay there (see Sawyer's and Kate's conversation last night)?
-This would require faith in "fate" and in any of the unusual phenomena that occurs on the island--those that have been identified so far as part of the six have never accepted the phenomena they have witnessed. This is especially true of Hurley, who is sympathetic to believing in the idea that he has witnessed some of these phenomena, but has consistently gone out of his way to make efforts to convince himself he is delusional. In the flash-forwards, there is clearly a sense of regret among the six.
-Would the six leaving the island be the equivalent to their consuming the forbidden fruit?
-Could the attempt to scientifically understand/explain how the island works (talking to you, Skinny D and Charlotte) play in to the idea that scientific intrusion into areas of faith destroys that faith, even if the explanations are not fully conclusive? The point of faith is to believe in the absence of proof, and if the island is explained, then that which is worthy of faith is destroyed? It has long been argued that faith has its own value, much as science does; is this part of the "message" of Lost?

Ok, enough stream of consciousness--hope someone enjoys running with these ideas.

-Screwtape

Posted by: Screwtape | February 15, 2008 4:46 PM | Report abuse

Gig asked: "If time on the boat (off the island) moves faster or at least differently than time on the island, how are the people on the island able to hold perfectly normal-sounding real-time phone conversations with people on the boat? "

I thought that at first, too. But remember that radio waves travel much much faster than rockets, so the lag wouldn't be noticeable (a few seconds). I don't want to do the math to figure it out.

Posted by: Xopher G. | February 15, 2008 5:12 PM | Report abuse

VAtoLA -- I agree with you. I'm not so sure we should believe that Kate is one of the Oceanic 6. We know she's off the island, but she hasn't been referred to as one of the Oceanic 6, and we're not even sure she's famous. Now, you mention Jack too -- we know that Jack is famous (the guy in the drugstore said he was a hero [may have been b/c of his role in the car accident or may have been b/c he's Oceanic 6] and Hurley referenced the fact that Jack was famous in his flash forward) but we don't know for SURE that he's one of the Oceanic 6. I think Jack probably is one of the Oceanic 6, but am not so sure about Kate.

Posted by: SSN | February 15, 2008 5:40 PM | Report abuse

OK. It's Friday, so I'm bored and decided to do a little math. If Danny's rocket traveled just under Mach 1, say 1200 km/hr, and the freighter is 80 nm (160km) away, then...beep..beep...it should only take 8 minutes to get there.

It seemed way faster on the show, like 10 seconds until he was looking in the sky, but then that rocket would be coming in at like Mach 50. Not good to be hanging around wating for impact, I think. So I'm chalking it up to editing for TV time.

At any rate, the speed of light is 1,079,252,848.8 km/h, about 900000x greater than the rocket speed. If the delay in the rocket was over 30 minutes (about 4x the predicted time), then it was probably only a fraction of a second in delay for the radio.

Posted by: Xopher G. | February 15, 2008 5:51 PM | Report abuse

Xopher,
You win. You are the bigger nerd. I bow before you.

Posted by: other liz | February 15, 2008 6:31 PM | Report abuse

I think the time thing is not as clear cut as 31 minutes. I think it's a ratio.
Per this screen shot,

http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2008/02/4x03-a-wrinkle-in-time.php

2:45:03 Island time = 3:16:22 off-island time. This is a ratio of 1.1897 (i.e. time is moving slightly faster off island).
But is this a fixed ratio? Was it affected by the now-blown up hatch? Maybe the purpose of entering the code was to keep this ratio in check and now it's not in check and the ratio could be increasing or decreasing more quickly?
Ugh my brain hurts.
I love this show!

Posted by: Time is on my side? | February 15, 2008 7:01 PM | Report abuse

Maybe RG is a reference to RG Collingwood, an early 20th century thinker known for his philosophy of history. Just a thought.
http://philosophers.co.uk/cafe/phil_feb2004.htm

Posted by: G-Pop | February 15, 2008 7:02 PM | Report abuse

Ok-I think the time theories are on track, but how do you explain that there is no lag-time in phone coversations that happen between people on the island and people on the freighter?

Posted by: lostlibrarian | February 15, 2008 7:19 PM | Report abuse

New to the conversation, but has anyone pointed out that the real John Locke is sometimes called "the father of empiricism" (science/observation as opposed to faith)? Why would the Lost John Locke be different?

Posted by: fs | February 15, 2008 7:55 PM | Report abuse

q8
```````

Posted by: ` | February 15, 2008 9:38 PM | Report abuse

Why does everyone assume that the "Oceanic Six" means that ONLY 6 people get off the island. It may only mean that there were 6 people who received some kind of publicity about being survivors -- not that more don't get off the island but in a way that doesn't generate the kind of media publicity that generates a tag line of "Oceanic Six." I also wouldn't make any assumptions about the time line of the flashforwards -- who knows when they occur in relation to each other. Finally, I'm convinced that some of the folks get off the island soon and that some of those flash forwards are not too far off into the future.

Posted by: colorado kool aid | February 15, 2008 10:48 PM | Report abuse

Another one of Jack Kerouac's famous novels: The Dharma Bums. Hmmmmmmm.......

Posted by: Andrew | February 16, 2008 3:45 AM | Report abuse

In physics, Maxwell's equations in curved spacetime govern the dynamics of the electromagnetic field in curved spacetime (or more generally, spacetime with a non-Euclidean metric). They can be viewed as a generalisation of the vacuum Maxwell's equations as they are normally formulated in the local coordinates of flat spacetime, but general relativity dictates that the presence of electromagnetic fields themselves induce curvature in spacetime, so Maxwell's equations in flat spacetime should be viewed as a convenient approximation.

The electromagnetic field also admits a coordinate-independent geometric description, and Maxwell's equations expressed in terms of these geometric objects are the same in any spacetime, curved or not. Also, the same modifications are made to the equations in flat Euclidean or Minkowski space when using local coordinates that are not Euclidean. For example, the equations in this article can be used to write Maxwell's equations in spherical coordinates. For these reasons, it may be useful to think of Maxwell's equations in Minkowski space as a special case, rather than Maxwell's equations in curved spacetimes as a generalisation.

However, this formulation of Maxwell's equations is only useful for the vacuum Maxwell's equations, also called the "microscopic" Maxwell's equations. For the macroscopic Maxwell's equations with inhomogeneous materials, the presence of the materials establishes a reference frame and the equations are no longer covariant.

Posted by: the anti-hero | February 16, 2008 3:54 AM | Report abuse

A few observations:

1) Given Locke's surprise and disappointment in not being able to find the cabin, it seems valid to conclude that it was not his eye that we saw when Hurley approached the cabin's window.

2) Perhaps the purpose of circle of colored earth around the cabin was to prevent it from moving itself to another location. And that preventive measure was somehow not enough.

3) I got the impression, by the exchange of looks between Frank (the pilot) and Dan (the physicist) when Desmond is pressing Frank about the Des-Penny photograph, that both of them knew about her, and chose to remain silent. So perhaps Penny is indeed on the boat.

4) I don't know much about lost islands where people from shipwrecks and plane accidents find refuge, but this island seems to have some areas very well manicured (short grass to play golf and land choppers). Somehow Sawyer's point of view with Kate (roof, electricity, ...) seemed quite reasonable.

5) How could Jack and Frank not ask Dan what he thought was the meaning of the projectile arriving with such delay. And why did Regina on the ship saw it reach target according to her instruments?

for

Posted by: for | February 16, 2008 10:38 AM | Report abuse

For anyone still reading...

I think there's some significance to the way Sayid treated Naomi. The way he looks at her, almost cares for her, and his interest in her bracelet. I don't think it was a coincidence that the episode revolved around Sayid and, in many ways, Naomi.

At times, I wondered if we were actually watching a flash-forward with Sayid. Sometimes it seemed it was a flashback. Certainly, Sayid doesn't appear to be able to escape his past. Again, he turns into a murderer. While he was on the losing side as a Republican Guard, we don't know what side he ends up on after he joins forces with Ben.

Also, there's something about Regina's voice that is just too similar to Naomi's.

Again, I ask, what is the real connection between Sayid and Naomi?

Posted by: latetotheparty | February 16, 2008 12:04 PM | Report abuse

In keeping with the expanding/contracting universe theory: Does anyone think it strange/significant that (so far) Hurley is the only one of the Oceanic 6 who is in the same mental/physical/emotional state (basically) in the flashbacks and the flash forwards - i.e., he is in an insane asylum. While Jack is a doctor both in the past and in the future, I don't think anyone would agree that his mental/physical/emotional state is the same. Same for Sayid (maybe). Could this whole adventure be somehow controlled by/ a product of Hurley?

Posted by: islandchild | February 16, 2008 12:17 PM | Report abuse

I'm finally giving in to my impulse to ponder the clues deeper...

Why would Ben say he's got a spy on their boat right in front of Charlotte? Of course, that adds simple dramatic effect. And it shows Ben's undaunted confidence and another endless trick up his sleeve. Don't know what to think of the Ben clone idea.

I think the end of the episode revealed that Sayid was working to protect his friends. From who? Ben, or the people Ben is having assinated? On the island, Ben said something to the effect of "with friends like that," when Sayid was made a prisoner. Like others I thought Sayid might be his man on the boat, but I haven't thought about the time issue. But why did he care so much about Naomi's body? That's dang confounding. Sayid tells Lock something like "the day I start trusting Ben is the day I sell my soul." I'm guessing he's made some deal with Ben to protect the other Oceanic people, whether on the island or elsewhere. Maybe those bracelets are trinkets from some Charlie-type figure behind the scenes.

Daniel first panicked when he checked his watch to the time piece of the rocket. Did the island get 31 minutes behind since Daniel arrived? Or 31 behind since the rocket took off? The time pieces were 31 minutes 17 seconds off. Daniel says that the time discrepancy is bad. He's a physicist. I would expect him to say fascinating. But he said it wasn't good at all. I'm guessing it took 31 minutes for the rocket to arrive instead of one. I looked back at the scene and the pilot doesn't give Jack a weird look after the 100 day remark. The weird look came from us, the audience. There are almost too numerous ways to look at those 31 minutes. The rocket should have arrived in just over a minute. It could be the outside world is working 30 times faster. But radio waves seem unaffected. That really would have helped Ben put those dossiers on the passengers so quickly. How can you listen to broadcasts and radio from the outside if the frequencies are speeding by thirty times faster than you (a person on the island)? Of course, if you're on the island for a while, you could develop radios and TV's processors that realign the signals. Anyone know the scientific sh** related to wave speeds. There's a big difference between some atomic clocks being seconds off from each other and time running extremely faster.

Jacob may have an ultimate motive, but he seems to be a bit of a malevolent trickster. There is the Jacob's Ladder aspect. I know the movie better than the biblical story. I remember staying up hours with friends after getting home from the theater after "Jacob's Ladder". I tend to get caught up in the science aspects, then there's all the super natural stuff that you can't use much logic with: ghosts, unexplained healing, the black smoke, pregnancy issues.

There's still all those people kidnapped off the beach at the beginning of season one. Where are they?

Wait... wait... the new people from the chopper. They all have reactions to the plane being found. Why would Daniel cry? Sure maybe he has a connection to someone that's a secret to himself. But what if he'd already returned from the island then later the boat is found. And they get emotional about remembering their experience on the island. The sub footage that finds Oceanic seems fake to me. The voices at least. It felt like a clue that maybe it was all faked by a powerful group. But someone said there's a 2004 calendar in a scene with Miles. The mom wants the spirit gone. Who knows how long the kid had been dead.

Off plot... Hollywood has a lot of Yankee fans. But in the writer's rooms there are much more Cubs and Sox fans. That's the most logical explanation for the Sox stuff.

Ahh, till Thursday.

Posted by: Lost Feliz | February 16, 2008 3:43 PM | Report abuse

I think a lot of people and myself believe that it was Sawyer who Kate was talking to in the finale of season 3, but after the latest episode, I was wondering if it could possibly be Ben. Maybe she is also working for him like Sayid. She is a tough woman who has killed before. I think the thought about it being her child is interesting but I think Jack had too much hostility towards whoever it was, which makes me think that it isnt a child or Sawyer. There is way too much going on with this show and trying to think it all out just gives me a headache. I guess I am the only one who really isn't thrilled with this season. I think there is too much being added to the show without ever answer questions from previous seasons. Maybe they will get answered eventually.

Posted by: bigchuckdogg | February 16, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

I'd just like to mention one thing that I thought of just now:
If it's true that the island is behind (space/time-wise) the rest of the world, then in order to visit it one would have to go back in time.
**Daniel becomes upset when the wreckage of 815 is found and he watches the footage on TV.
**When he is visiting the island, he and the rest of the crew already know about the wreckage being found.
**This means that when he's watching the footage on TV (and doesn't know why he's upset), his visit to the island is in his future. However, he has to go into the past to visit the island.
**Therefore, when he's watching the footage on TV, he has actually already been to the island, even though his visit will happen in the future. Since he's already been there, perhaps he doesn't directly remember, but he still has a emotional reaction about what happened there....

Does this make any sense at all??


Posted by: IC, IA | February 16, 2008 5:41 PM | Report abuse

"""**This means that when he's watching the footage on TV (and doesn't know why he's upset), his visit to the island is in his future. However, he has to go into the past to visit the island.
**Therefore, when he's watching the footage on TV, he has actually already been to the island, even though his visit will happen in the future. Since he's already been there, perhaps he doesn't directly remember, but he still has a emotional reaction about what happened there....

Does this make any sense at all??""""

Yes. That makes a lot of sense for all the sense memory stuff going on.

Posted by: Lost Feliz | February 16, 2008 5:45 PM | Report abuse

guys i calculated.


1 minute (outside the island) multiplied by 30 minutes (on the island judging by how long that thing flew to it) by 100 days makes 3000 days. which is 8,2 "real" years.

cool, eh? it could explain a lot.

Posted by: Tatiana | February 16, 2008 6:05 PM | Report abuse

** Re: Who's in control

Hey Bigchuckdogg - Yep, I think Future Kate at the airport could be referring to Ben.

Or, Kate might be referring to the same guy Elsa was working for. At the airport with Jack, the way Kate talks about having to get back to "him" sounds a lot like how Elsa is in a big hurry to get to her boss when her beeper goes off.

** Re: the 31 minutes -- Why are we assuming 2:45pm and 3:15pm on the same day? It might be 2:45pm and 3:15am (12 hours later), or 3:15pm on the next day, 2 days later, etc.

** Re: Oceanic 6
- Any connection to who was originally on Jacob's list?
- Just because 6 people are referred to as the "Oceanic 6" by the public doesn't mean those people were all necessarily on the original flight. Obviously the 6 are lying about various stuff to keep up with the deal that was cut to get them off the island.

Posted by: nikkil | February 16, 2008 6:35 PM | Report abuse

Another good point nikkil! Whoever it might be, I don't believe its Sawyer anymore. This means that Sawyer may not be one of the Oceanic 6. I also see the point that Ben, Desmond, or other people who are on the island but not in the crash may get off the island and not be part of the Oceanic 6, but I don't think that theres gonna be anyone who was on the flight returning that aren't one of the six. I think that we are clued in that some people are left behind on the island.

The thing I am most interested in, and creeped out by, right now is the cabin. I read an interview with Jorge Garcia talking about the seasoning opener and it being Jack and Claires dad in the rocking chair, but he said in the orignal script it was suppose to be himself (Hurley) in the chair. The only thing is, I watched the scene from season 3 where Locke hears the voice say "help me" and that voice seems to be the same as the actor who plays Jack and Claires dad. Garcia also said he didn't realize that Jack had referred to his dad being alive in the season 3 finale. So do you think he is a straight out liar or tries to confuse the viewers? I also really wanna know why Hurley says he should have gone with Jack instead of Locke.

There is so much more to go on about but it would be never ending. I'm glad I found a place where I can get additional thoughts on all the wackiness of Lost.

Posted by: Bigchuckdogg | February 16, 2008 7:53 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone recall when Ben showed Juliet (in season 2)her sister in the real world playing with her child? I believe Ben showed a copy of the date on a newspaper so Juliet would be convinced he (Ben) was not making up that they had helped her sister with her cancer. Juliet didn't notice any difference of time there could have been. It seemed to Juliet that the time on the island and off the island was the same. Juliet had been on the island maybe for a few months and thats what she saw in the video Ben showed her. This would do away with the times being years different. Just an observation.

Posted by: KG | February 16, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Or, KG, Ben could've just showed her an "old" -- in real time -- newspaper.

Posted by: polly | February 16, 2008 10:46 PM | Report abuse

Okay, this is a bit off topic, but this seems to be the most intellectual group of LOST fans I've found. I have been completely unable to find anyone talking about one clue that is very telling.

On find815.com, one of the clues is the map Ben (Henry Gale, Dorothy Gales uncle and balloonist extraordinaire.) drew to find the balloon. He drew it on the back of a piece of paper and you can see a book title through the paper. The book is called "The Brothers Karamazov" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brothers_Karamazov). It is about a russian family. The brothers all have issues with the father and eventually one of them kills their father.

"The book is written on two levels: ostensibly, it is the story of a parricide in which all of a murdered man's sons share varying degrees of complicity but, on a deeper level, it is a spiritual drama of the moral struggles between faith, doubt, reason, and free will."

Lost follows this two level approach also, as we all know. The thing that catches my attention here is the "spiritual drama of the moral struggles between faith, doubt, reason, and free will" which sounds like it came straight out of Locke's mouth and that statement is a metaphor of the look on Ben's face in every scene.

This sounds very much like the struggles faced by Ben, Locke, Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Hurley, Jin (claiming his father was dead) and probably others I am not thinking of right now. Ben killed his father as a way of moving past him. Locke had Sawyer kill his father who was the reason Sawyer's father was dead. Jack wanted to hurry and bury his father so he could move past it. Kate found out the redneck scumbag she killed was really her father. Hurley would like to see his father gone. And Jin made up his father's death because Jin was ashamed. Claire wished she never met her father and walked away as if leaving him for dead.

Has anyone else thought through this much? Just curious what others might be thinking.

Posted by: Rotpada | February 16, 2008 11:11 PM | Report abuse

I would be careful not to "over analyze" the significance of the 31 minute time difference. According to DocArtz, who got a preview screening of the first four episodes.

DocArtz: "I was delighted by a few key differences in the final version of The Economist vs the cut I was fortunate enough to see in advance of airing. For one thing, the time difference between the rocket and Daniel's timer was 31 minutes instead of 31 seconds, and we all know bigger is better."

http://www.docarzt.com/lost-news/lost-403-the-economist-a-delet.php

So this puts possibly puts into question the significance of 2:45 & 3:16 along with the 31 minutes. This means they either haven't fully determined the scientific implications of this, or they showed DocArtz an altered episode.

Posted by: Clan | February 17, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Someone earlier commented that maybe Regina is Naomi's sister on the boat since they sound so similar and because of a weird look Daniel gives Miles when he says the "tell my sister I love her" was a code. Maybe she really does have a sister on the boat and maybe it's Regina and maybe the RG on the bracelet means it was a gift from her sister Regina . . .

Posted by: ??? | February 17, 2008 2:35 PM | Report abuse

Rotpada, I've heard Find 815 referenced a lot but I've never spent any time with it. "The Brothers Karamazov" tie-in sounds like a classic "Lost" literary homage. Father/child relationship are major themes as you point out. Thanks for bringing this clue to everyone's attention. More food for thought.

Posted by: Not Shlomo | February 17, 2008 3:26 PM | Report abuse

Without additional information, Sayid may be considerate of Naomi because of Shannon's death. Maybe he just wants to see her returned to her family (if she has any) and respectfully put to rest, unlike the circumstances surrounding Shannon's death.

Posted by: LA | February 17, 2008 9:24 PM | Report abuse

How about this scenario?

a) Mr. Avellino (sorry, I'm not sure that that is his correct name) became frightened when Sayid said that he was one of the survivors of the Oceanic 815 flight. The reason he became frightened is that Mr. Avellino (perhaps through the news) KNEW that Sayid was NOT one of the Oceanic 6, and therefore Sayid was there looking for him with a very definite purpose. These scenes I think were a flash-forward.

b) The scenes of Sayid with Elsa (and later with Ben treating his wound) were flash-backs. On the Island Sayid (at least in a few scenes before going to the barracks to exchange Charlotte) has a scar from the gunshot he received from Mikhail. I am not sure that he has the scar when he is with Elsa. So perhaps these scenes are before 815 hits the Island.

One possible interpretation is that the Dharma organization was working on the island to develop a time-travel machine. That would explain the remains of the polar bear in the Sahara , and the apparition of a second bunny (coming back from another time) while the person (I'm sorry, perhaps his name is Mr. Mitellos) is making the training movie (shown before the season began). I think that those were failed time-travel experiments. But eventually Dharma (or Ben's group) managed to make the machine work, and now Sayid/Ben are time-traveling attempting either to settle scores or to "correct" things.

This interpretation receives some support from the argument that the numbers are related to the Valenzetti equation, and that Dharma has not been able to change them, and therefore the prediction from Valenzetti's theory that the world's end is inevitable (according to the equation). So, in attempting changing the numbers and save the world from its fate, Dharma realizes that the only way is to go back to the past and alter some events.

Within this context, perhaps Desmond is a person that was brought from the future, and thus his ability to predict it to some extent (he is actually remembering it). And also maybe this explains how the others have such detailed information about the plane people: they were able to go back in time and witness some of their live's events.

I realize that the argument is probably too wild; I'm sorry,but it is the best that I could do.

for

Posted by: Anonymous | February 18, 2008 7:39 AM | Report abuse

I'm sorry; with regards to the post by "for" above I forgot to mention this.

The time-travel idea also explain Sayid's reactions to the bracelet. After killing Elsa (in the past), for the first time Sayid's sees the bracelet. In his future in the Island, Sayid has memories of the bracelet when he finds a similar one in Naomi's arm. At that point in the show, Sayid doesn't know that he will eventually time-travel with Ben, but he has "memories" of the bracelet.

The possibility is that Sayid and Ben never leave the island permanently, but that instead they are time-traveling, and the island is their base.

I apologize again if people find this too wild.

for

Posted by: for | February 18, 2008 7:59 AM | Report abuse

Alright, 100 days? I think Jack was telling the audience how to calculate how long they were on the island.

The rocket should have taken 28 seconds, but it took 31 minutes to get to the island.

If time passes at that speed on the island...that would mean that they've been there for 18 years!

That would explain the funny looks when they say they are Oceanic 6.

Posted by: Angelo | February 18, 2008 9:57 AM | Report abuse

All the recent time travel theory posts, especially about Sayid and Daniel having "emotional memory" on certain events (the bracelet for Sayid and the plane crash footage for Daniel) seem to make sense and are very interesting. Can't wait to see how this all plays out!

Posted by: Lost at Work | February 18, 2008 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Rotpada,
Thanks for reminding us of _The Brothers Karamazov_ reference. This book, written by Dostoevsky, is one of the central texts analyzed by Russian literary theorist Mikhail Bakhtin. I continue to believe that Bakhtin's ideas may help us understand some of the competing truths and competing understandings of time that seem central to Lost and to this season especially.

For example, Bakhtin builds on theories of relativity to think about how time and space in stories are not separate but are united in an idea called chronotope. He also theorized the use of many voices - polyphony or heteroglossia - in narratives and that because of these many, differently situated voices, no understanding was ever final. All talk and all stories continue to be open to further response and different understandings, perhaps like the writing of Lost itself. Check out the wikipedia site for more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtin

Posted by: clr5f | February 18, 2008 4:28 PM | Report abuse

I would hesitate to extrapolate the time change (or time discrepancy). Still, since people are going through the trouble of using it to make calculations, I thought it worth pointing out that if one showed 2:45 and the other 3:16 and they are both running clocks, you still want to factor in travel time if you are looking for a ratio of time elapsed. So, if we assume the expected travel time was 1 minute, it was launched ~2:44, so 3:16 would really be ~32 minutes afterwards.

I thought it was a good point that argued we are assuming a half-hourish difference when we could be talking about different AM/PM or even different days really. Obviously it doesn't look like 3 o'clock in the morning on the island, but this could be some normalized time, like GMT rather than local time anyways.

If you care to chase the rabbit down the time tunnel, it is important to separate the two explanations:
(1) offset, meaning one source is "ahead of" another
(2) scaling, meaning one elapses faster relative to another

Posted by: 31+1 | February 18, 2008 4:45 PM | Report abuse

I'm worried about getting too wrapped up in the science, but it's too tempting. Sayid and Ben's scene and the thing with Elsa may have been a flashback, but I don't think they're jumping around time traveling. When they talk about knowing they're after them, and Ben says 'good,' it would then have to imply that they're all time traveling. The idea of the polar bear being sent back in time makes a lot of sense. Saving the world... interesting. It seems more about power struggles than committing acts for the good of all. Interesting about the ideas of Bakhtin. I think one of the ideas of time and space is that they can't exist without each other.

I'm really stuck on the pilot's ring being missing. Are we talking cover-ups or alternate realities/futures/pasts.

I'm going to shut up till Thursday.

Posted by: Lost Feliz | February 18, 2008 8:21 PM | Report abuse

Some thoughts:

It seems obvious that there is a war of sorts going on between the Others on the island led by Ben and those who want to get onto the island, people I've been calling "Other Others". In the flash-forwards, it seems the war is being played out now by Ben with the Oceanic 6 where Sayid, and I believe Kate, are hired killers to battle the OtherOthers, Hurley has sought refuge in an insane asylum to get away from it all, as did the guy in the earlier episide who gave Hurley the "numbers, and Jack is doing things to alter the timeline, as Desmond did in his dream (or was it a dream?) and the pressure to continually alter the future to save it is driving Jack mad. Remember that Jack reads an obituary and Jack has a breakdown. That person may have been someone Jack was supposed to save, but failed, leading the world closer to destruction.

Kate? Kate is with Ben, the "he" who she needed to get back to. It seems obvious now that we know Ben is in the real world. She seemed worried that "he" would notice her missing. Ben could invoke that type of fear.

The 31 minutes needs some facts to go with it:
-Regina reports the missile landed but it arrives 31 minutes later.
-Time is something that would be needed to know the future and then alter it. That was part of the Dharma initiative, working to alter the future to prevent the end of the world.
-Time must be running parallel, not faster, or radio communication would not be possible. So he talks with Regina as the missile is launched, and HER view of the missile reports it landing a minute or so later, but that is just her view. The 30 minute difference is the 30 minute difference in the time of the island and the "freighter". If the island is 30 minutes ahead of the freighter, then imagine how someone on the island could see what they are doing on the freighter and have 30 minutes to alter it to prevent it. Very powerful. Now extrapolate that to the rest of the world. Sayid knows this guy is going to be playing golf and knows exactly where to be in order to kill him because he has a 30 minute view of the future. Alpert knows Juliet will not come to the island because of her husband then sets up events so her husband is hit by the bus. Desmond had a much longer view of the future, predicting Charlie's death by days and the lightening by hours. Maybe the closer you are to the island the more the time difference is. Anyway, it seems clear the island is in the future, but not a normal future or Dan would not have been able to speak with Regina without 30 minute communication gaps. Light (electromagnitism) somehow gets through ok but matter is affected, which might be why they looked at the sky when the newcomers landed. That might explain how O815 broke up as it flew near the island, also Naomi's plane and the helicopter. Dan has figured a bearing to get to the island because he understands the nature of the timeshift, but the rocket showed he is not confident he understands it completely.

As for electromagnitism, well, it would take a lot of it to alter time, maybe not at all. But it could provide a huge amount of power to allow something else to alter time.

Polar bears. I can't stop thinking about Locke saying the polar bears saved them when the hatch imploded. These bears are either trained very well, are very intelligent, or are the ones actually in charge on the island and using humans to alter the future.

Posted by: Sully | February 18, 2008 10:31 PM | Report abuse

I don't think the polar bears time travel. I think they may have been teleported. If the bones found in Tunisia were truly fossils, the Dharma collar would have completely decomposed. Textiles are rarely found among fossilized materials. It makes more sense (to me) that there is some kind of portal on the Island that can transport beings to different locations. I'm not convinced that time travel theory holds water.

Posted by: Not Shlomo | February 19, 2008 11:34 AM | Report abuse

My head still hurts and I love this show. Try this one out (if anyone is still reading the posts), Ben's spy on the boat is Sayid. If, as Sully posits in his post, that the island is in the future, then when Ben and Sayid were alone in the room where they were being held prisoner by Locke, Ben could have instructed Sayid on the overall nature of what is going on and enlisted his help in going back in time to the freighter. This might also explain Sayid's fascination with Naomi's bracelet. But, I guess this doesn't make as much sense as I thought because then the freightor folks would have recognized Sayid when they got to the island. Anyway, it does make my head hurt : - ) I do agree that the polar bear incident is more explainable by teleportation rather than time travel.

Posted by: emcdoj | February 19, 2008 1:13 PM | Report abuse

So I was watching a documentary this weekend about the universe and in it they were talking about how time moves at a different rate in space. They had two highly accurate atomic clocks, one on earth and one on a rocket. They discovered that they moved at different rates. I didn't totally get it because that seems more like a problem with the mechanisms than with actual time but it did remind me a lot of the last ep. Could explain the problem with births...the mother's body tells it 9 months have passed but the fetus isn't finished developing. Pretty complicated stuff to have on a prime time drama but who knows...

Posted by: chad | February 19, 2008 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Are you sure Jack's dad is alive? Jack refers to him, but he's drunk/crazy when he does, and no one else mentions him that I can recall. Maybe that's a sign to everyone that Jack is either drunk or crazy because he's talking about his dad as if he's around.

Posted by: m.a.t. | February 19, 2008 5:05 PM | Report abuse

Regarding the new relationship between Ben and Sayid, I keep thinking about Ben's comment to Michale before he left the island. Michael asked "Who are you people?" and Ben replied, "We're the good guys, Michael."

Perhaps this is why Sayid is working for Ben. It turns out that Ben represents what passes for "the good guys."

Some questions: Where are the remaining "others?" I recall that Ben sent them to "the temple." I'm guessing that the temple has some connection to the remains of the statue with 4 toes.

Posted by: Stan Denski | February 19, 2008 9:11 PM | Report abuse

The writers may not necessarily be Sox'fan but perhaps the 2004, 2007 Sox' wins and Jack's father quoting Sox fits in the story and the dates as someone mentioned above that Frank may be referring to the 2007 win and not 2004 win so Yankees fans out there don't deprive yourselves of such a good show.

Posted by: lostINlost | February 19, 2008 11:34 PM | Report abuse

to 2 Questions: someone earlier posted "When Miles called the boat to inform them of Naomi's death, Miles wanted to talk to Minkowski, possibly to avoid Regina finding out over the phone." Now Frank wants Dan to hang up immediately if Minkowski answers. This seems like a suspiciously important comment.

Posted by: S | February 20, 2008 3:25 PM | Report abuse

Not Shlomo wrote: "It makes more sense (to me) that there is some kind of portal on the Island that can transport beings to different locations. I'm not convinced that time travel theory holds water."

Well, not just time travel but space/time travel. The polar bear skeleton looked like it had been there a long time in Tunisia. Charlotte had to use a hammer on rock to get below the skeleton. If Dharma had sent it there, somehow, in te 1960s, then it would not be encased in rock. It looked like it was ancient. And the Dharma collar looked like it was made out of plastic, which can last millions of years. My guess, an early experiment at teleportation in space and time using a living object the size of a human. An experiment, though one that failed in hitting its target space/time. Also, wasn't the Sahara desert once the south pole? Maybe current and former magnetic poles are the portals.

I always thought the "sub" seemed too slow to get from where they were to the US or elsewhere. I'm now guessing the sub is fake, used to make people who came to the island, like Juliet, think they had traveled by sub. They put Juliet on the sub in the US, injected her with something to make her sleep, teleported her to the island where she was placed on the sub at the island, then woken up. Her, and probably many Others, were brought here that way and do not know the real secrets of the island. It also explain why Ben did not get too upset when Locke blew the sub.

Yea, I thought about my little time-shift theory to explain how the missle landed 30 minutes later but Dan could talk in real time to Regina. It makes little sense. I'll have to wait for more info. But it seems clear time, and altering it, and possibly space as well, are involved. I just hope its not some alien living under the island making all of this happen using star trek technology, or worse, magic.

Posted by: Sully | February 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Report abuse

Not sure if this idea has been mentioned, but consider if the hatch exploding altered the time difference; the hatch exploded on Day 67, meaning 67 days passed normally both on and off the island. Jack says "over 100 days" since they've been there, meaning at least 33 days where time is passing differently on and off the island. 33 days with a 1:31 ratio is 1023 days, plus the first 67 is equal to just about 3 years. In other words, "Did the Red Sox really win the series?" would be Jack referring to 2004 in the amount of time that has passed for those on the island, but would be interpreted as 2007 by Frank. So yeah, I wouldn't interpret the Red Sox mentions as the writers trying to alienate fans of other teams!

Posted by: jay | February 20, 2008 6:26 PM | Report abuse

to 2 Questions: someone earlier posted "When Miles called the boat to inform them of Naomi's death, Miles wanted to talk to Minkowski, possibly to avoid Regina finding out over the phone." Now Frank wants Dan to hang up immediately if Minkowski answers. This seems like a suspiciously important comment.

Posted by: S | February 20, 2008 03:25 PM

Yeah, Minkowski is definitely important, we just don't have enough info on him yet (and I don't think there are any obvious name connections to try to get a frame of reference for who he's going to be... anyone got one?) to figure out who he is. A leader of some sort, but it's still too early to surmise much about him.... I don't think we've met him before...I can't wait to, though!

Posted by: Lost at Work | February 20, 2008 10:06 PM | Report abuse

Hmmm, jay you got me thinking. Maybe there is a three year difference between the island and the real world. Ben Faraday got there by some technology he came up with, and now that he is there the rocket experiment shows the freighter is slipping back in time, which as he said is not good and thus the warning to the helicopter pilot to stay exactly on course. Maybe he's worried they will end up like the polar bears.

Actually, I don't think there is a freighter. If you can transport bears to Tunisia and through time you can probably get to the island from other places. My guess is there is some lab in DC trying to get to the island through some technology, probably similar to what Dharma set up on the island.

Did you ever wonder why Penny had the guys stationed near the north pole to try to detect the location of the island? More magnetism me thinks. The earth's magnetism, which is not a simple north and south pole has many anomalies. Remember that the island was mentioned as having an unusual magnetic field in the orientation film. Some magnetic anomalies cause compasses to change for pilots, etc. Magnetism is definitely needed either for power ,time displacement, teleportation, or all three.

Posted by: Sully | February 20, 2008 11:43 PM | Report abuse

Prediction: Sayid lands a few minutes after leaving the island in Washington state, at the building where Juliet boarded the sub. But I've been wrong before.

Lost is the best name for this show since it describes the characters and the viewers!

Posted by: Sully | February 20, 2008 11:46 PM | Report abuse

Daniel Faraday is the person in the coffin at Hoffs Drawlar (anagram for Flash Forward) in last year's season finale. If you look at a closeup of the newspaper article Jack is reading you can see 'araday' and that he committed suicide.

Posted by: Amy | February 22, 2008 12:42 AM | Report abuse

My theory about all of this is that the island is "The Garden of Eden." It would explain why some people want to protect the island and make sure no one else knows about it.
1) In some religions it is believed that all life was created there, so that is why anything can survive there (Polar Bears).
2) Adam and Eve were banished from the island, is that why the humans have been unable to procreate there?
-speaking of this, where does that leave Aaron? Is he the only child to be born here? If it does, what does that mean? Did Kate take him with her (she did call "her son" Aaron)?
3)In leaving the island has Sayid (who is working for Ben) become the modern day "Angel of Death"? If so, does that mean that Ben is somehow working for God or the Creator of the island?
4)From the island it seems they are able to locate anyone in the World and have their life history. Is the person running the island somehow playing God?

This has to be it. Don't you think?

Posted by: Maggie Cote | February 22, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Not so sure Maggie,

>My theory about all of this is that the island is "The Garden of Eden."

I doubt it.

>It would explain why some people want to protect the island and make sure no one else knows about it.

Why? It would just be another island. But this island evidently allows people to transport elsewhere, babies not to be born and their mothers to die, healing to happen fast, etc. Most of what is extraordinary about this island seems man made.

>1) In some religions it is believed that all life was created there, so that is why anything can survive there (Polar Bears).

Unless they did not need to eat I would think these polar bears need a lot to eat, and I don't see any seals on the island. We've only seen one polar bear, the one Sawyer shot. I've been wondering where all the polar bears are.

>2) Adam and Eve were banished from the island, is that why the humans have been unable to procreate there?

If they were banished was God not looking when they came back with lots of guns?

>-speaking of this, where does that leave Aaron? Is he the only child to be born here?

No, Rousseau says her daughter was born there.

>If it does, what does that mean? Did Kate take him with her (she did call "her son" Aaron)?

That's still a mystery which we got a small clue about last week when Claire told Kate about babies and Kate seemed to distance herself, though got upset when Sawyer was happy Kate was not pregnant ... women!

>3)In leaving the island has Sayid (who is working for Ben) become the modern day "Angel of Death"? If so, does that mean that Ben is somehow working for God or the Creator of the island?

He's working for Ben in the future. Ben made it clear Sayid is a killer of those trying to get onto the island, and Ben will do anything to protect the island. Ben did not create the island, that is clear from last season when we say Ben arrive as a child and grow up on the island with the Dharma project building the island's infrastructure.

>4)From the island it seems they are able to locate anyone in the World and have their life history. Is the person running the island somehow playing God?

In previous episodes McPatchy sat at a computer screen and pulled down all the data about the O815 passengers shortly after the crash. It was technology, not God. And I don't think anyone is playing God. Murder is certainly an accepted method to protect the island, and the reason stated by the Others is to "save the world", so if the stakes really are that high, what Ben has done all of these seasons may seem mild once we know what is really going on.

>This has to be it. Don't you think?

Not even close.

I'm convinced, considering the possibility the island is in the future but communication happens in real time, that the island allows a way to see the future, then go back and change it. As in Desmond's flashback/dream, he was about to buy a ring and was told if he bought it the world would end. He needed to buy another. Imagine if 3 hours before Kennedy was shot that you were sitting on an island and heard about it, then had three hours to get your agents around the world to stop it. Imagine that this is your life's work, stopping the events that will lead to the world's destruction. Why, I think you'd act as crazy as Ben and probably be willing to take the measures he has to protect the island from those who might use such power to change the world for the worse, or simply get wealthy, or worse, stop you from continually saving the world.

But remember, when a change is made, the world, or fate, tries to correct the change. For example, Hurley wins the lottery using the "numbers". Everything he buys is destroyed, the house for his mom, the chicken fast food place hit by a meteor, etc. Hurley calls the numbers a cursed, but its just the world trying to correct what improperly happened. Later Charlie is saved by Desmond. He should have died and events continue to conspire to kill Charlie. Charlie accepts his fate.

So imagine the world was saved by some intervention by the Dharma people and WW3 was prevented. But now the world is trying to correct things. The Others and their agents around the world, which will soon include Sayid, will watch from the future and instruct the agents what to do, including killing people, since not doing so will lead to the end of the world. That's where my money is. The Others on the island are protecting the world from a destruction that was prevented in the past but events continually conspire to make happen again, and its a full time job that if stopped will doom us all. Charlie asked Desmond to stop saving him and fate caught up to Charlie. Ben is half crazy knowing that he cannot make a mistake or everyone on earth will die. In the end Ben will be the hero, in the end we will understand the beatings he took, the risks he took, the cruelty he handed out, and most of all, that while Sayid looks pathetic and Jack is hitting the bottle, Ben has the guts to stay focused and battle to save the world, using the island and also protecting the island from those who would stop his job of guardian of mankind.

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