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Posted at 10:30 AM ET, 02/26/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analyses: 'The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham'

By Liz Kelly

John Locke (Terry O'Quinn) lands in Tunisia. (Image courtesy Get Lost Podcast)
Lost

In which Jen Chaney and I -- women obsessed with TV's most exasperating yet intoxicating show -- attempt to wring every last drop of meaning from the latest episode. As ever, we'll miss something. Tell us what we overlooked today at 3 p.m. during the weekly "Lost" Hour chat.

Jen: So last night's episode of "Lost" -- with the exception of that killer (pardon the pun) scene between Ben and Locke -- was a series of largely uneventful encounters. Allow me to summarize them in dialogue form.

Locke: Sayid, we have to go back to the island.
Sayid: No. I am the first assassin in history to work for Habitat for Humanity, and I refuse to give up my post.

Locke: Hurley, we have to go back to the island.
Hurley: No way, dude. You're with that guy from "The Wire" and he's crazy!

Locke: Kate, we have to go back to the island.
Kate: I just realized you don't love anyone. And also, no.

Locke: Jack, we have to go back. It's fate.
Jack: No, you're lonely and old! And I don't care if you know my dad's name. Suck it, John Locke!

Locke: Crud. Guess I have to kill myself.

Followed by totally awesome scene with Ben, cliffhanger ending and ... scene.

Can you tell I was a little underwhelmed?

Liz: Me, I liked the episode, if only because it served as a bridge between the beginning of the season and the rest of the season, which starts with next week's show -- when we find ourselves back on the island and utterly awash in uncomfortable encounters. And, for the writers, this week helped to tie off a few loose ends -- why Walt doesn't return to the island, why Abaddon visited John in the hospital before his trip to Australia and -- of course -- exactly how John died. And, umm, how he dies has me moving further and further away from the "I love Ben Linus" club.

Video: Last night's pivotal moment...

Much more analysis after the jump...

Liz: And, hey, are you going to do that pithy dialogue thing for the rest of today's analysis?

Jen: Jen: Yes, I will do pithy dialogue for the entire analysis.
Liz: That will be awesome. You are always so smart and right about things, even Ben Linus, who is a heartless, homicidal freak but really, truly, is working for the greater good.

Liz: Liz: Please stop now.
Jen: You are right. This is annoying. I apologize and will never do it again.

Jen: But seriously kids, I agree that some loose ends were tied up, perhaps most importantly Widmore's explanation -- which I think we all saw coming -- about his desire to get back to the island and the fact that he is at war with Mr. Linus.

I think the encounters John had with the Oceanic 6 were what I found most anti-climactic. I mean, he wasn't terribly persuasive and no one wanted to go back. So those moments just played like the writers doing their duty to explain, and didn't push the narrative to exciting places. But maybe the bar has been raised so high with other episodes from this season that I am expecting too much. Anyhoo, should we go to Tunisia?

Liz: I agree. The O6 encounters were a bit formulaic, but they were necessary to get through and -- maybe this is important, maybe not -- set John up to doubt himself. Each of them made a point to tell John he only wanted to return because he had nothing else and Jack went so far as to tell John, as you pointed out above, that he wasn't special at all -- that none of them were. And as we now know, John did need to die to somehow be reborn on the island -- but I don't think he knew that, and I don't think Ben knew that either, when he was squeezing the life out of him.

But yes, let's go to Tunisia.

Jen: So as we suspected, when Locke pulled the donkey wheel he ended up exactly where Ben did when he pushed it: Splayed out on the sands of Tunisia, barfing. Widmore suggests that spot is where the exit is. The fact that there were cameras there -- is it possible Widmore put those in place once he realized Ben had plopped down there before?

Liz: But wouldn't Widmore himself have plopped there if he -- as we suppose -- left the island in the same way?

Jen: Presumably. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't remember the cameras being there when we saw Ben land before.

Liz: Agreed. And one would think he would have been particularly anxious to capture Ben and, that if he knew where he would land, would've been all over that. But yeah, I don't remember the camera being there when Ben landed.

Oh, and about that barfing. Can I just go on record here and say there has been entirely too much vomit on TV lately? Last week it was "Biggest Loser," this week "Lost." Enough.

Jen: See, I barf when I consider having to watch "The Biggest Loser." But that's a different topic. Besides, I think Locke's qualified more as spit-up than vomit.

Liz: I can't win -- either someone on TV is barfing (or spitting up or hurling or upchucking) or you are. I'm going to get some kind of waterproof suit.

As for Widmore, what do you make of his statement that there is "a war coming" and that if John's not back on the island the wrong people will win? Is he actually talking about a war or is he talking about him vs. Ben?

Jen: I assume he means him vs. Ben. But I guess it's possible that Ms. Hawking could be involved, too. Just as Locke was skeptical, I also am not sure we should believe anything Widmore says. He and Ben sound exactly the same. When they talk about the O6, they say, "I've been watching them, trying to protect them." I think both of them have their own agendas and they're just trying to stay one step ahead of the other.

Hey, can we back up a second? We should note something important about Cesar and Ilana, our new friends who joined the Oceanic 6 on the flight. Neither of them seemed aware of Dharma or all this island business. But Cesar also seemed to get access to a Dharma station -- where he was looking at all those documents -- pretty quickly. A lot faster than the Losties did when they first crashed.

I guess I wonder how much they really know and if they, too, are working for Widmore. Or if they even realize they might be working for Widmore.

Liz: And Cesar seemed pretty quick to hide whatever he found from Ilana. Speaking of which, when Caesar was searching that station -- which one was that, by the way? -- he found a couple of interesting items. One appeared to be a map of the island and the other that, on closer inspection, seems to be a schematic about the space/time continuum.

I was struck by its resemblance, though, to the the Sefirot of the Jewish Kabbalah. And I have to fess up that the only reason I'm familiar with said Sefirot is because of "Focault's Pendulum" -- the book I'm reading now in which it looms large. So is there a Kaballah connection? If so, how can we drag Madonna into all this?

Jen: Yeah, I can't tell which station that was or if it's a room we had seen before. And clearly I need to read that Umberto Eco book. Another aside, signifying nothing:

A reader sent in a note last week to remind us that Said Taghmaoui, the actor who plays Cesar, was in "Vantage Point" with Matthew Fox. Which isn't important, except that it's yet another way the show demonstrates connections between the key players, even in real life.

Liz: He was also in "Three Kings," I believe.

Jen: He was! And his name in Three Kings? "Capt. Said."

On another note, should we have a brief moment of silence for Abaddon?

Liz: Yes, let's.

Jen and Liz: [silence.]

Jen: We finally confirmed that Abaddon worked for Widmore. Which wasn't hugely surprising. Also, I think his presence should tip us toward the mistrust side of the spectrum when it comes to Widmore.

I mean, did you notice the licence plate on Abaddon's car when they were in New York?

Liz: I didn't -- what was it? And Abaddon came off as a pretty sympathetic character when he was talking to John at the cemetery.

Jen: The numbers on it were 766. That's close enough to the devil for me, my friend. And he did seem sympathetic. But then, so did Ben before he got all weird and strangly.

Liz: You have a point there, but I'm not buying the 766 thing. But since we're pointing out numbers, we should probably add that the number Widmore programmed into John's cell phone for emergencies was .... 23.

Jen: Yes, that was a nice touch. Again, as we know from the Jim Carrey film, the number 23 is ALL BAD.

Liz: Or is it Jim Carrey who is ALL BAD?

Jen: Please. Let's not speak this way about Ace Ventura. It's disrespectful to detectives and, less directly, to pets.

Liz: Anyway... As you mentioned above, we didn't get much out of John's visits to the few O6-ers he visited. But I think that was a pretty important scene for Jack -- and helped with his motivation later on, don't you?

Jen: Yes, the Jack scene was important. 1) We could see how that beard was beginning to evolve. 2) In all seriousness, we do understand Jack's guilt now. He told John he was old, lonely and useless. Then the guy dies. I mean, that's gotta make a fix-it man like Jack feel pretty low.

Liz: And 3) He passes on the message from Jack's dad, which obviously hit him hard enough to get him started on his spate of trans-oceanic flights in an attempt to re-crash on the island.

Jen: We should mention that Hurley was drawing pictures of Egypt when Locke visited him in the hospital. Which, as Michael Emerson told you, may be significant, no?

Liz: Indeed. Michael did say "hold that thought" when I brought up Egypt. So, hold that thought. I think between Egypt, Tunisia and the Sefirot we've got an interesting ancient storyline brewing.

Jen: Should we talk about Waaaalt? Not much to say. In fact, I wasn't sure why Locke went to see him. I mean, he didn't even try to play backgammon with the kid.

Liz: And Walt's dreams -- that he saw John on an island in a suit -- struck me as a little ham-fisted. Big revelation.

Jen: Yeah, even I -- someone who's a sucker for all this dream-fate-biblical-signs stuff -- kind of found that ridiculous. I feel like there should be more going on with Walt. The kid has super powers. And now they're just gone?

Liz: Yeah, and would John -- who always treated Walt as an equal -- really have wimped out on telling Walt about Michael's death?

Jen: Especially after going all the way to New York to find the kid. When, apparently, all he had to do was watch a Tyson chicken commercial.

Liz: One more thing I wanted to bring up before we talk about that grisly hotel scene. Back on the island, Cesar and Ilana said that the pilot and "a woman" took off on one of the long boats. We know that pilot is Frank Lapidus, but who is the woman? Sun?

Jen: Good question. That's the logical conclusion to draw, since we know where Kate is at this point.

Liz: And we didn't see Sun with the other survivors. Seems she'd have been pretty quick to notice John Locke wandering around.

Jen: Exactly. She doesn't seem to be injured. Only Ben was shown in the Dharma recovery room.

Jen: Speaking of Ben, let's talk about our lovable boy.

Liz: You say "lovable," I say "sociopathic."

Jen: He pulled a big switcheroo on us tonight. He breaks into Locke's hotel room, calls him off the ledge -- so to speak -- and offers to help. Then he strangles the dude. Why do that? Why not just let Locke kill himself and save himself the mess and hassle?

Liz: Either he needed information before offing him or something Locke said changed Ben's strategy. And that thing, logically, would have to have been the news that Jin was still alive.

Jen: Yes, you could practically see the frozen donkey wheel in Ben's mind turning when he got that information. But why would that change things? Didn't Ben also think Locke would have to die?

Liz: That's the $18 million question. And something I predict we'll spend much of this afternoon's "Lost" Hour discussing.

Jen: One thing, though. And I know you'll think I'm a gullible moron. But when Ben said, "I'll miss you, John," I think he really meant it.

Liz: I think he did, too, in his own sick little way. But remember, this is the guy who killed off all the Others Dharma folk when he was only a boy. I'm sure he missed them, too, but serial killers do find ways to reconcile their actions.

Jen: He had to kill him, but he didn't want to. Maybe his concern was that Locke would eventually go to Sun and tell her that Jin was alive. And Ben wanted to keep that information to himself so he could use it as leverage himself.

Liz: Seems that would have worked equally well if they'd gone to Sun together, though.

Jen: Yeah, I don't know. I was definitely not sure what was going on there. The bottom line is that Locke would have died either way. It was, indeed, fate.

Liz: And I don't think you're gullible -- you're just under the spell of a Jim Jones-esque charming megalomaniac.

Liz: Maybe, though, we should table the discussion until this afternoon. We can also save the symbolism of the show -- John as Obi-Wan, the shoes, etc. -- for the chat as well. I'm interested in hearing what everyone else made of last night's installment.

Jen: Okay, but I'd just like to note how quickly the worm turns, Miss Kelly. Two weeks ago you're all like, "Oh Ben, really is good." Then he does something minor like strangling the life out of someone for no apparent reason and you change your mind. Just like that. It saddens me. Deeply.

Liz: I know. I'm a fair-weather friend. So, until this afternoon?

Jen: Absolutely, Obi-Wan.

Liz: May the barf be with you. But not on you.

Next Week on 'Lost': Sawyer perpetuates a lie with some of the other island survivors in order to protect themselves from mistakes of the past.

By Liz Kelly  | February 26, 2009; 10:30 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

first!

Posted by: pugz1 | February 26, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

"But remember, this is the guy who killed off all the Others when he was only a boy."

He killed off the Dharma Initiative, not the Others.

Posted by: y1776 | February 26, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

awesome episode - good bridge.... biggest question of the night - what time frame did Ceasar, LLana, and Bentham land in ? and where did the couple O-6ers land ?

Posted by: tjkass | February 26, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Usually enjoy the Dueling Analysis, but must say that this week's installment mirrored the episode it reviews. Not a lot there. See you at 3pm.

Posted by: Qiezi9 | February 26, 2009 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Doc Jenson seems to think that they landed on the second island, and that they are at the Hydra station. Not sure how he figured that out.

Posted by: brooklynite | February 26, 2009 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Hm. Now, see, I thought it was the news that Locke knew about Eloise Hawking that sent Ben over the edge. Maybe...knowing that Richard had told Locke about Hawking showed Ben just how inconsequential he (Ben) really was to the island. Maybe that's why Ben killed Locke -- jealousy.

Or maybe not.

Posted by: RebeccaHartong | February 26, 2009 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Cesar and Ilana talk about the passengers who disappeared on the flight. Wouldn't Sun and Sayid have "disappeared" along with Jack, Kate and Hurley? I don't think Sun took off with Lapidus.

It looks like the plane crashed on the smaller island and Cesar found the Hydra station. Lapidus and mystery woman probably took off for the big island.

Posted by: wojoko | February 26, 2009 10:54 AM | Report abuse

Seemed to me it was when he heard the name Eloise Hawking that Ben decided to snuff John. But why???

Posted by: csteiger | February 26, 2009 10:59 AM | Report abuse

"Doc Jenson seems to think that they landed on the second island, and that they are at the Hydra station. Not sure how he figured that out."

There was a hydra logo on the folder that Ceasar was reading. I don't think that necessarily means they were in the Hydra station, though.

Also I don't think they are on the second island because the time-jumping losties hit that exact same spot on the beach with the boats and the Ajira wreckage. I wouldn't think that they would be hoppign through time *and* from island-to-island, but that may just be me.

Question: what are the chances that Lapidus and the mysterious "lady" are the ones chasing and shooting at our time-jumpers from a few episodes ago?

Posted by: VTDuffman | February 26, 2009 11:04 AM | Report abuse

See I thought it was John mentioning Eloise that caused Ben to kill him. I really did think he planned a nice little strategy session w/his old buddy until John said he had to find Eloise Hawking.

Posted by: jes11 | February 26, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

I think something changed when John mentioned Heloise Hawking, Ben had a strong reaction to that, the same way he did when Desmond said Heloise was Farraday's mom. I think it showed Ben that John was talking to Jacob (aka Christian) again and that reminded him of what a threat John really was so he killed him. Although does anyone actually remember Christian or Richard telling Locke to find Heloise Hawking - that seemed made up.
The only thing that does make the killing seems premediated is last week's episode why Ben is so careful with John's body and why he wants the body to go to the island.

Posted by: sr78 | February 26, 2009 11:06 AM | Report abuse

Question: what are the chances that Lapidus and the mysterious "lady" are the ones chasing and shooting at our time-jumpers from a few episodes ago?

Posted by: VTDuffman | February 26, 2009 11:04 AM

I think it was Caesar and his bunch who were chasing our beloved time-jumping losties. There appeared to be more than 2 people in the chase boat and we know Caesar has a gun.

Posted by: jes11 | February 26, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

wojoko, you are probabaly right. Remember John or someone asked about the boats of which there were two but found out there where originally three? Pretty convenient, don't you think?

Posted by: hodie | February 26, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Obviously that is the Hydra, since they can see the rest of the island from the beach. And Ben orchestrated the killing of the Dharma folk, not the others. Ya'll got to step up your game--it's not fun to speculate about things you should already know...

Posted by: AllisonERS | February 26, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

I didn't catch it in my first watching of the episode last night, but someone mentioned that the plane had landed on the runway that Kate and Sawyer were helping to build. I'll have to go back and watch, because I thought the Ajira plane had crashed.

It would make me think that the Ajira-folk landed in the future, after the runway was completed, while the Lagoon 3 landed in the 70's, in Dharma time (explaining Daniel in the FDW cave, Jin in the jumpsuit and van, and Sawyer in those super sexy brown glasses in the preview for next week). I guess it's those "unpredictable results" Mrs. Hawking discussed.

Posted by: eet7e | February 26, 2009 11:14 AM | Report abuse

You could tell they were at the Hydra station because Cesar holds up the thing with the Dharma logo on the back, and in the middle of the logo is the small figure of the Hydra (lots of snake-like heads, central body, etc...)

Posted by: notea42 | February 26, 2009 11:14 AM | Report abuse

"There appeared to be more than 2 people in the chase boat and we know Caesar has a gun."

I suppose that's equally possible, but FWIW - the gun that Caesar had was a sawed-off shotgun. The time-jumpers were being shot at with probably a rifle of some sort. SGs, especially sawed-offs, don't have that kind of range.

Oh, and: observation from this analysis. The girls commented on how hard it was for the original losties to get into a Dharma station, but remember - the Tailies got into their station no problem.

Posted by: VTDuffman | February 26, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Walt told John he said him standing on an island in a suit. But there was more. He said he would be surrounded by people who would try to hurt him. That sounds like a pretty important revelation that John would need to know.

Posted by: carolfeather | February 26, 2009 11:17 AM | Report abuse

They're not on the main island, they're on the little one with the Hydra station. They signaled that with the first view of John on the beach, looking across the strait at the big island. Same view Sawyer et al. had when they were held there. When you're on the big island, you can't see any other island across the way.

It also fits with the whole "you can't go back once you turn the frozen donkey wheel" storyline. Ben and John had to end up on the little island, or they'd break the island's rules, which can't happen. Also explains how the O6 aren't there -- they didn't turn the wheel, they needed to go back, so the island took them back, and just spit out John and Ben nearby.

Posted by: laura33 | February 26, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

I also thought they landed on the smaller island because in one scene Locke is looking from the beach at the larger island. I didn't know if this was because since they moved the island it has new geography and other new islands are closer or if they just landed where the Others used to work. Here is the problem. When did they land? Next week's teaser seems to show the O6 reuniting with those left behind including Ben and Locke. If they landed when the DI was still working then the stations on the smaller island wouldn't be abandoned. So they must have crashed in a different time. How then will Ben and Locke meet up with the Lostaways?

As for Ben and the murder. I think that he wanted the information, but his real intent was to prevent the suicide. He wants to take Locke's place as leader on the Island so he was trying to prevent Locke's sacrafice. Or, he knew thay Locke had to be martyred in order to be resurrected. I prefer the first theory.

Posted by: L8yF8 | February 26, 2009 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Walt also said that in his dream John would show up on an island in a suit surrounded by people who want to kill him. So, just who are these people??? Could Widmore be through with John? Why couldn't he have got on the same plane if he wanted to go back so bad? Maybe he did. Maybe he was in coach.

Posted by: hodie | February 26, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

I'll have to watch the Ben/John scene again, because what really seemed to be the turning point was Ben's shock that Jin was alive - and not a happy shock. His reaction to Eloise Hawking's name didn't seem as intense. It makes me wonder what it is about Jin, who must be Candle's son, and wonder why Ben doesn't like that.

And Abaddon's death-eyes seemed to say "I'll be back!" I hope so.

We know where Walt is, but where is Vincent? I've always thought that labby happy go lucky attitude was a bit suspect.

Posted by: mat00 | February 26, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Any episode without a single Sawyer sighting is inferior. I have to agree with Liz and Jen that (even with a SHIRTLESS Sawyer sighting) this episode was blah, until the last 5 minutes. By the way, we know that the new crash victims are on the smaller island because when Locke is standing on the beach at the very beginning of the episode he's looking across the water at The Island.

Posted by: kbockl | February 26, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

I agree that the Ajira plane crashed on the second, smaller island, which means that Cesar and gang have found either the Hydra station or one of the other outposts on the small island (like the place where Juliet's "trial" was held a couple of seasons back). If you recall, during the mango-eating scene Locke was standing on the beach looking across a stretch of water to another body of land -- a view similar to what Sawyer was shown when he was being held captive on "Island, Jr." We also know that the Others (or whoever) used outrigger canoes to commute between the two islands, so it makes sense that the Ajira passengers find these on the beach.

I also agree with those who thought that it was Locke's mention of Eloise Hawking that triggered Ben's decision to kill him. But why?

Perhaps Ben had already met with Mad Lady Hawking and been told that the only way to get back was to recreate the circumstances of the original "crash" as closely as possible. Thus, he already knew that Locke would need to stand in for the dead Christian Shepard (as Ms. Hawking said in last week's episode) and was afraid that Locke would back out if he was to meet Ms. Hawking and find this out from her directly.

A separate thought: Was it irony or mere coincidence that Locke and his father were both killed in the same way -- by strangulation?

Posted by: NotDoc | February 26, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Another thing. Apparently Ben didn't see any need for the losties to return to the island before his conversation with John. He was more concerned with making trouble for Widmore. But afterwards, he's pushing for the return like the fate of the world depends on it. Definitely it was the mention of Ms Hawking that rang alarm bells in his head somehow.

Posted by: csteiger | February 26, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

"If you recall, during the mango-eating scene Locke was standing on the beach looking across a stretch of water to another body of land -- a view similar to what Sawyer was shown when he was being held captive on "Island, Jr.""

I agree that it's possible that they're on the 2nd island, but I want to call shenanigans on this line of thinking. If the island moved, the view that Locke has wouldn't be the same as the view that Sawyer had, unless "Island Jr." moved with the island.

I think it's too easy: the obvious hydra logo on the folder, the "similar view" argument. They *want* us to think the Ajirians are on "Island Jr.," this just stinks to me like a Classic 'Lost' Switcheroo.

Posted by: VTDuffman | February 26, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Let's not overlook part of Ben's motivation for giving him the Carlo treatment, believing that he was removing Locke from the family business, was that he had apparently combined forces with Barzini.

Also, it may be the case that Christian not only died, but was actually murdered in Sydney, so that, for Locke to be his proxy, he also had to be murdered.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 26, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

I think the 06 are also in different times. Jin meets up with Jack, Hurley and Kate in a relatively new and clean VW bus and Dharma body suit, which leads me to believe those guys are in the past. But John tells Cesar that the station was a relic of the past so that means he, Ben, Lapidus (maybe Sun too) are in the future. Question, where's Sayid? Also, Walt dreamt that Locke is with people that want to kill or harm him so that's a prediction or warning for Locke.

Posted by: spasz | February 26, 2009 11:46 AM | Report abuse

I must be one of the few who liked the episode. I adored the interaction between Locke and Widmore, though the scene where they reset Locke's leg brought back some painful memories (I'm surprised he was awake so long after they snapped it back). Widmore saw John as we all see Alpert. He even mentioned (paraphrasing) "The last time I saw you, I was 17. Here you are so many years later and you look exactly the same."

I also loved how helpless and defeated John was. Here was the "great white hunter," so bold and confident on the island, who doesn't seem to have the confidence to convince the O6 that they have to go back. He is genuinely lost away from the island (no pun intended). He was losing his faith while Jack was gaining his.

I've always had a feeling in my gut that Ben is bad and Widmore is good. Yes, Widmore sent the freighter with those mercinaries. But remember, the mercenaries were only there to capture Ben. They pretty much left the Lostaways alone. Ben made everyone think that the people on the freighter would kill everyone on the island, but they had plenty of chances to do so off the bat and they didn't. Unfortunately, Alex was collateral damage, being the only thing Ben loved.

And I feel my long standing (since the last episode of season 3) theory that Widmore was a wheel turner has been validated!

Posted by: eet7e | February 26, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Well we know why they built the runway now :)

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/thumb/2/2a/Runwaybirdview.jpg/180px-Runwaybirdview.jpg

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/wp-content/gallery/5x07-easter-eggs/7.jpg

Posted by: shiplore | February 26, 2009 11:54 AM | Report abuse

I don't think Ben killed Locke, instead he strangled him to the point of unconciousness and then gave him some Nikki & Paolo spider coma serum. Even when Ben "hangs" Locke, Locke's body does not appear to be hanging limp . . .

Posted by: airish316 | February 26, 2009 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Best guesses:
The Ajira passengers are in present time on the small island (which would certainly be within the island radius that Faraday mentions and would move with the big island).

Lapidus took a boat to the big island and landed at the old beach camp. Who knows why at this point, other than he knew something was going on and the mystery woman will probably be someone who was also on the flight because of knowledge about the island.

Sometime soon, perhaps under the direction of Locke, other Ajira passengers will head in the other boats to the big island. When Sawyer/Juliet/etc found the boats there were more than 1. Sawyer et al will steal a boat and then be followed and shot at.

I would think that Sayid and Sun will be in the same time as Kate/Jack/Hurley and not showing them yet is just to keep us guessing. But keeping Sun away from Jin longer would make a certain kind of cruel sense from a storytelling standpoint as well.

The only thing bugging me is that Jack/Kate etc experience a flash on the plane and end up at what we believe is the 1970s. But it looked like Jin had been comfortably there for awhile. Did the flash only happen on the plane? That seems a little sloppy.

Posted by: wojoko | February 26, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse

2 things - a) I assumed that all the O6 vanished during the flash of light on the plane, so that would make me think Sun did not boat away w/ Lapidus. I can't think why Sun alone of the O6 would not have vanished. I do think that Ben's lack of vanishing reflects something to do w/ the island not wanting him back.

and b) it does seem more likely that Ben killed John rather than let him tell Sun not to come back to the island, i.e. Ben wanted all the O6 to return. But watching it at the time it seemed like it was Locke's dropping Eloise Hawking's name that set Ben off.

Oh yes, one 3rd thing, was the obit for John Locke or Jeremy Bentham? I guess Kate and Jack both knew who JB was anyway so it doesn't really matter.

Finally, I finally recognized Abbadon as Broyles from 'Fringe', which I missed this week.

Posted by: HardyW | February 26, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Liz - you noted "Cesar seemed pretty quick to hide whatever he found from Ilana."

What he hid was a loaded sawed-off shotgun that he found under the desk. Remember way back in Season 1 when Sawyer having a pistol was such a big deal? (In Season 2 they gained access to the Dharma arsenal and have been armed to the teeth since)

Cesar is basically in the same situation our original Losties were in back in September of '04 -- where are we? what happened? what's going on? who are all these people I'm now stranded with? -- so it makes perfect sense that he would grab that gun and try to keep it to himself.

Laura33 - Good point (and good imagery) on Ben and Locke being "spit out" onto Island, Jr., so that they don't break the rules about returning to the main Island. PTUI!! PTUI!!

Posted by: NotDoc | February 26, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

Christian drank himself to death in Sydney - the Coroner said so when Jack went to get the body.

So a few things are bothering me right now, the first of which is Jack's beard. He had a couple days' growth in the hospital on last night's episode, but obviously had a much longer one when Locke's obit was in the paper. So what's the time difference between Locke in the hospital and Locke's death? The show made it seem like the followed closely together.

Also, didn't the place where Locke died last night have a different name than the one listed in the obituary at the end of Season Three? Was his body moved before it was "found"? The obit - if I remember correctly - also said that Jeremy Bentham was survived by a son. Who is that going to be?

Posted by: beisbol | February 26, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

I was wondering if the Cesar is the Jack of the new Losties and Ilana the new Kate. Although as the marshal she would be the anti-Kate I guess. Would Cesar be an anti-Jack.

Posted by: HardyW | February 26, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

I think Locke's on the small island.

Consider that Widmore was waiting for Locke in Tunisia. Not a place one just hangs out. So he must have known Locke was going to be there. The Others may have told him, or Christian/Jacob told him. Either way, Ben's look when he saw Locke with Abaddon said it all. Surprise and anger. Locke was with Widmore. So when Ben finds Locke ready to commit suicide he pleads for him to stop, thinking this was part of Widmore's plan. When he tells Ben about Hawking he realizes three things: The suicide was not part of Widmore's plan since Locke had more to do, Widmore is going to have Locke return to the island, and Ben can return to the island using Hawking. He killed Locke to stop Widmore's plan. Why he says his body needs to return I have no idea. Maybe to convince the Others that Locke is dead and thus Ben should become their leader.

Another thing. Widmore is not surprised by the time travel (Locke saw him when he was 17 years old just 4 days ago). But Widmore is amazed it works. More evidence for me that Widmore helped build Dharma to use the island for time travel. But now I'm wondering where Wimore came from. British 17 year olds on a south pacific island in 1954 just seems out of place. Why were they there?

It was nice to see Walt. It also reminded me that Walt did not return to the island. I wonder if we'll see more of Walt. Ben doesn't seem to care about him and either does Widmore, yet the Others said he was special. Why is he being ignored?

One last thing ... Widmore talked about a coming war on the island. Before the O6 returned there was the Others and Sawyer's group, and I guess Dharma considering its 1970. Could the coming war mean the purge is going to be replayed? Maybe the O6 will change the past by bringing information to save Dharma, which I believe Widmore financed. But that would go against the "what has happened has happened" law of Faraday. So I guess I'll just have to keep watching.

One last last thing. Ben always speaks of Jacob. He never mentions Christian. Maybe Jacob and Christian are working against one another?

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 26, 2009 12:09 PM | Report abuse

A lot to discuss this afternoon -- not the least of which is the Hydra station.

But also wanted to pass this along before the chat: According to zap2it.com Evangeline Lilly has been auditioning for TV pilots set to launch in the fall. If true, what does this mean for Kate's fate?

http://blog.zap2it.com/korbitv/2009/02/is-lost-letting-evangeline-lily-go.html

Posted by: Liz Kelly | February 26, 2009 12:12 PM | Report abuse

laura33 is right. There are no accidents on this show and for the camera to spend so much time showing John looking wishful across the srait to the Island, it definitely made me realize they had crashed on the smaller (Hydra Station/polar bear cages) island -- which apparently jumps with the main island, like the Looking Glass station. Probably because they are connected by the same sea bed. At any rate, once you turn that wheel you cannot go back. So John and Ben didn't materialize from the plane to the island. They crashed on the next best thing.

Speaking of those two: Why did Ben kill John? Simple. Up until last night, Ben always thought he was controlling John, can't imagine why, right? John consistently did what Ben told him to do even when he really didn't like him and was frustrated with him, or questioned his motives. But when John said he had to find Eloise Hawking, Ben knew he was losing John to the Widmore side. Sure Ben knows where to find Eloise and they seem to have some kind of relationship -- even if Eloise doesn't think very highly of him. But Widmore keeps Eloise's address in his personal leather address book. They have known each other since 1954 (if Ellie is Eloise). Ben knows how easy it is to manipulate John and last night he realized that's a problem in war. He cannot trust John to follow his ideas anymore because 1.) John has started thinking for himself and 2.) John was following Widmore's instructions to the point he was ready to kill himself over failure to execute those plans.

Also, Ben still doesn't "get" that John is Jacob. Or maybe he does and that's why he'll miss him, he'll miss Jacob. Ben tried so hard to convince John he's special. It doesn't get more special than Jacob. Jacob might as well be "God" to the Others. "I wish you would have believed (in) me."

And thankfully Widmore finally said it out loud: The Others are not "the others" to anyone except new people. Duh, they were on the island FIRST!

Posted by: a68comeback | February 26, 2009 12:20 PM | Report abuse

Maybe it doesn't mean anything. I mean, we know that next year is the last season, so everyone will need to move on to something else, and maybe the shooting schedules (as Lost will begin airing in January again, I assume?) can be reconciled.

Posted by: Janine1 | February 26, 2009 12:25 PM | Report abuse

good call ooyah32 I didn't think about Christian being murdered but that may be the right answer. I disagree with the peolpe mentioning the Hawkins name as turning Ben, he much more reacted to the mention of Jin to my eyes. I think Ben wants to be the "leader of the island" and thoguht by killing John that Jacob would take him back. I think he will be surprised to see John alive.

Posted by: sivwiz | February 26, 2009 12:27 PM | Report abuse

beisbol, I had the same question about the timing -- submitted a Q to the chat, hoping they'll address it. When we first met future Jack, he had the big beard, and wasn't there some comment that he had been taking weekly plane trips across the Pacific for months? When Locke met Jack this time, he had mini-beard, and Ben told Locke that Jack had just scheduled the first of those transatlantic flights. So I was thinking that Jack met Locke, which triggered the torment and sent him into months of cross-continental travel, and then after all those months, he saw Locke's obit on the return flight, which sent him off to the bridge in all of his full-bearded despair.

But last night sure implied that Locke's death happened shortly after he spoke to Jack. Which means the viewing Jack went to would have been after he returned from that first trip, instead of 6 months or so down the line. Which doesn't make sense with the full beard, the whole "Jack sinking into despair" storyline, and all those flights trying to get back.

The only thing I can come up with is that maybe Ben held on to the body for his own purposes -- maybe waiting until he thinks that Jack has hit bottom and will be willing to do anything to go back. But if that case, you'd have thought that Ben would have spirited John's body away into hiding. But last night showed him staging it for someone else to find. So I'm, um, lost.

Posted by: laura33 | February 26, 2009 12:28 PM | Report abuse

Seemed to me it was when he heard the name Eloise Hawking that Ben decided to snuff John. But why???

Posted by: csteiger

I think Ben was completely playing Locke. Because he knew that Locke is the next leader and would have to get back to the island, and since he didn't know how to get back, or couldn't get back, he had to keep him alive to find out how. So, he was nice and coaxed him down, got his info and then killed him.

THAT's why he was surprised when Des showed up and mentioned that Eloise was Faraday's mom. He didn't know.

I think he's been watching the O6, not to protect them, but to see how they get back to the island.

Posted by: choeynanna | February 26, 2009 12:40 PM | Report abuse

"Also, Ben still doesn't "get" that John is Jacob."

Locke isn't Jacob. Christian is Jacob.

Posted by: VTDuffman | February 26, 2009 12:41 PM | Report abuse

I agree this was one of the weaker episodes. It seems the production value was just lower. None of the 'reveals' were surprises. Even the set design was poor it was quite obvious they were in Hawaii. I remember a time when they transformed Hawaii into London wonderfully.

Posted by: skinsfan6465 | February 26, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Also, it may be the case that Christian not only died, but was actually murdered in Sydney, so that, for Locke to be his proxy, he also had to be murdered.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 26, 2009 11:33 AM


This is what I was just thinking.

Posted by: wadejg | February 26, 2009 12:44 PM | Report abuse

I think that there is still a lot more to learn about Jacob. Christian isn't Jacob. He speaks for Jacob. Not everyone can see Christian Shephard... at least... i don't think so. We don't know that for example, Ben has ever spoken to Christian Shepard/Jacob.

I believe that Ben is clearly trying to stop John from doing something that he is destined to do. What, I don't know. I think Ben thinks he killed John for real this time / just like he thought he was doing when he shot him in the dharma/purge grave.

Posted by: tjkass | February 26, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

If it was Ben that forced Widmore from the Island, does that mean that Widmore is present during the Dharma days? Are we going to see him with Horace or Roger Work Man?

When he is forced out, is Widmore still part of the Hostiles/Others, or did he help create the Dharma Initiative?

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 26, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Even though the scenes were close together, I think it's likely that the Locke/Ben encounter came several weeks or months after Locke's meeting with Jack.

Ben's statement about Jack having bought a ticket is suspect and shouldn't be relied on for timing -- remember, Ben has never hesitated to lie or to significantly bend the truth when it suits his purposes. Ben never said WHEN Jack bought the ticket. Also, Jack could have already taken several flights without BUYING a ticket, since he had that Oceanic "Golden Pass" giving him free travel on their airline for life -- perhaps he only just now BOUGHT a ticket because the Oceanic routes weren't getting him to the Island, so he decided to try another airline.

Posted by: NotDoc | February 26, 2009 1:03 PM | Report abuse

One thing that got into my head while watching the show was about Widmore in relation to Penny and Desmond. I was just thinking during the show, that if Widmore knows all these things like that John is special and needs to be on the island and about the donkey wheel and whatever, maybe there was something he knew in regards to Penny and Desmond's relationship. Maybe somewhere along the way, Widmore knew that Penny would meet an untimely death if she were to be with Desmond.It would then make sense as to why he didn't want Desmond anywhere near Penny. But with fate being fate, there was really no way for Widmore to really pull Desmond and Penny away from one another.

Posted by: lostatwork | February 26, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

I'm new to this but here it goes. I thought the most recent episode was one of the best yet. I was able to draw a number of things. (1) Ben did want to save Locke's life but had a change of heart when he learned Locke was working with Widmore; (2) The meeting between Locke and Walt was significant because as Locke was Ben's successor, Walt will one day become Locke's successor; (3) The war Widmore warned about is between the survivors and Ben's former followers led now by Locke, and the new survivors who will be led by Ben. If fact, Walt's vision of Locke being surrounded by angry people, are the very survivors that Ben will turn against Locke from the recent plane crash.

Just my thoughts.

Posted by: vcwright_vcwrightyahoocom | February 26, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

It seemed to me that John's mention of Jin sparked Ben. However, what really made Ben pissed was when Locke said that he had promised Jin that he wasn't going to tell Sun that Jin was alive. Ben then said something like, "well, a promise is a promise."

Those on different sides of this tiff over the island agree that all six of them have to go back. If Locke had told Sun that Jin was dead and that he'd seen Jin's body, why on earth would Sun go back? She wouldn't.
So, Ben must make sure that Locke never gets a chance to keep his promise to Jin.

Posted by: peteyamama | February 26, 2009 1:13 PM | Report abuse

vcwright_vcwrightyahoocom wrote: "(3) The war Widmore warned about is between the survivors and Ben's former followers led now by Locke, and the new survivors who will be led by Ben. If fact, Walt's vision of Locke being surrounded by angry people, are the very survivors that Ben will turn against Locke from the recent plane crash."

Well, Locke is now a ghost, like Christian. Ben may know how to contain ghosts, like Jacob seemed contained in the cabin with that grey dirt around the cabin. But the idea that these new survivors are going to be Ben's army set to fight Locke and the Others is genious. Maybe when Jack asked Ben about the others in the plane and Ben said "who cares", he was planning on them being his army and, like the Losties, who cares about them when it comes to ruling the island.

I'm assuming Locke/Ben and the new survivors are in regular time and are not in 1970, like Sawyer, et. al., and now Jack, Kate and Hurley, with Sayid and Sun missing. Its going to get confusing if they keep bouncing back from the present to 1970, but we've been through worse...

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 26, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

"Even though the scenes were close together, I think it's likely that the Locke/Ben encounter came several weeks or months after Locke's meeting with Jack."

Nah, the scars from the car crash and maybe the broken leg would have healed by then.

Posted by: HardyW | February 26, 2009 1:30 PM | Report abuse

John is on the other island because they showed a night scene with the two islands in it, with a distant light shining on the smaller island - the next scene cuts to the Dharma station with John talking to the new guy.

As for Liz and Jen, you guys need to lighten up. You describe dissapointment when a scene plays out as you expected - well, what did you expect?? The show has to portray the scenes you're guessing will be played out - thats how we understand the progression of the plot. And saying Walts scene was boring and meaningless - as others have said in their comments, John is warned that those around him mean him harm. Worthwhile.

Posted by: csh1 | February 26, 2009 1:30 PM | Report abuse

There's one thing that I found confusing about last night's episode. Back in season three Ben shoots Locke and leaves him to die. Later in season four, after Locke has recovered, Ben reflects on the incident and says something along the lines of "I should have known then that it wouldn't work" meaning to kill Locke. So why does Ben think killing Locke this time will "work"? It only makes sense if killing Locke is part of a grander plan, like having him resurrected on the island. Maybe Ben won't be so surprised to see Locke alive...and maybe Jen is being too hasty in moving away from the "I love Ben Linus" club.

Posted by: kcp1 | February 26, 2009 1:40 PM | Report abuse

Ben may also be of the mind that, if the Island doesn't want Locke to die, he won't die, even if I strangle him (e.g. Michael), but if the Island does want him to die, then it really isn't an evil thing for me to do it.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 26, 2009 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Well, Locke is now a ghost, like Christian. Ben may know how to contain ghosts, like Jacob seemed contained in the cabin with that grey dirt around the cabin. But the idea that these new survivors are going to be Ben's army set to fight Locke and the Others is genious. Maybe when Jack asked Ben about the others in the plane and Ben said "who cares", he was planning on them being his army and, like the Losties, who cares about them when it comes to ruling the island.

I usually agree with most of your posts bevjims1, but do not agree with this. The new group of survivors all see John, he is not a ghost he is alive.

Posted by: sivwiz | February 26, 2009 1:58 PM | Report abuse

I agree in part. I think Ben knew that Locke couldn't be killed on the island. I'm not sure that Ben knew Locke would be resurrected. I think there is some doubt because why then would he say "I'm really going to miss you" when he otherwise knew he'd see him again in a few days back on the island, assuming his plans worked? I disagree that Locke is a ghost like Christian/Jacob. He is an immortal on the island like Mr. Egyptian eyes. Immortality, Egyptian, Pyramids, ressurection, fighting "gods"?, mmmmm can you see where this is going? Hope those writers are clever about the ending or it could end up pretty corny.

Posted by: hodie | February 26, 2009 2:08 PM | Report abuse

No one else has mentioned this, but when John is standing on the table, his arms are stretched out and Ben bows down before him. I was definitely thinking of all the biblical references and John being the resurrected messiah.

Posted by: lost1234 | February 26, 2009 2:15 PM | Report abuse

hodie: Ever since they showed the hieroglyphics on the temple wall I've wondered if Jacob is a god. I don't know why, but I'm thinking about the story of Osiris and Set who were Egyptian gods (also brothers). Set killed Osiris but Osiris was resurrected by his wife Isis. Could be irrelevant but I'll be checking out the Egytian myths.

Another thing, hearing Widmore say that Tunisia is the exit point made me think of Stargate.

Posted by: linda1413 | February 26, 2009 2:22 PM | Report abuse

The only way Ben could get back to the island was to kill John. Once he learns the way back is through Eloise Hawkings he has all he needs. None of the O6 would follow Ben without John and John was leaning towards Widmore. If John had lived and actually convinced the rest to return, Ben wouldn't have been invited.

I would think Ben visits Eloise in John's place, after his death, and convinces her to show him the way back. But it's Widmore who knows the way back beforehand. And Christian/Jacob has said before that listening to Ben never got John anywhere.

Ben needs the island as much as John and Widmore and will do anything to get back.

Posted by: longterm | February 26, 2009 2:25 PM | Report abuse

>> I was definitely thinking of all the biblical references and John being the resurrected messiah <<

But Locke isn't The Won.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 26, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

>> The only way Ben could get back to the island was to kill John. <<

I like that idea.

An unanswered question -- what effect is there from only five of the O6 going back? (the whereabouts of Aaron yet to be revealed)

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 26, 2009 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Herez my few things..
1. Ceaser is holding the Hydra logo folder, and it does look like a runway and knowing our expert pilot was lapidus, i can imagine it was landed and not crashed.
2. But, the sawyer-juliette were on the main-island, how did they find the same boats then? so thats waaaaay in future... so maybe the ajirians take both the remaining boats and go to the main island and leave the boats there and go wandering when is the time sawyergroup steals 1 of their boat and the ajirians follow the sawyer group.. but then if locke went with the ajirians to the main island, that means locke was present on the ajirians as well as in the sawyergroup.. hmm..
3.What time are the ajirians in right now?
did anyone notice the Life Mag that Ceaser flips thru, I have screenshots of it. There is hydrogen test, Dave Beck, and Hanes Ad.. all that belong to 1954.. but only the Mag maybe from 1954 and they can be in 2007 or whenever
http://s459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/bluetruckguy/IMAGE_362.jpg
http://s459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/bluetruckguy/IMAGE_361.jpg
http://s459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/bluetruckguy/IMAGE_363.jpg
4. Ben had to kill Locke, because remember last week when Locke is Jesus.. so he needs to be crucified.. he cant kill himself.. but maybe someone (Alpert) had told Ben, that he has to kill that person who tells him how to get on the Island and so Ben was following orders. Now, new question, if Ben is the one cruifies our jesus... so do we know who is the bad guy then?
5. Sun/Sayid maybe in 1970s too somewhere that Jack and team need to find.. maybe hanging from the tree.. or if they took Eko and Ana Lucia's roles they have a hike before they come and reunite.
6. Lapidus and some other woman.. if it was sun, Ilana wud say some asian woman.. if it was an airhostess (some lapidus' new found love) Ilana wud say the pilot and the airhostess.. so who else? some new entry maybe..

Posted by: thetruckguy | February 26, 2009 3:03 PM | Report abuse

I thought the show was a good one. Yes, the scenes between Locke and the individual 06ers were abbreviated but, time is really running out on the show and they had to fit it in one 42 minute show. I liked the way the writers gave us the answers to how Locke did meet with the folks. I must say though that based on earlier episodes I actually thought there wee multiple contacts between Locke and individual 06ers rather than one each. Apparently not; certainly they didn't have time to show those multiple meetings in one show. But, if Locke only met Jack the one time, I'm a bit disturbed by the time line. Jack doesn't learn about Locke's death until on the flight when he sees the clip in the newspaper. I think we have seen Jack tell Kate that he has been regularly flying on Oceanic trying to get back to the island, hoping the plane would crash. The scene with Jack had to have been the last in the line of such flights. Thus, there has to have been some time difference between his meeting with Locke and Locke's subsequent death. Certainly a period of several weeks since he told Kate he was flying every weekend. But the comment by HardyW has merit to it; we still see Locke disabled because of his broken leg (which is understandable due to the severity of it) and the scratches of the car crash (which should have healed faster, I would think). So that scene in the hotel room impliedly happened sometime shortly after Locke's meeting with Jack. That logically couldn't be the case based upon what we have been told up to this point. Could this be a writing gap/error?

I like the idea that Ben and Locke ended up on the smaller island because they couldn't return to The Island due to having turned the donkey wheel. That would also apply to Widmore if he tried to get back, I suppose. The bigger question is, does this mean that they can never cross the channel to the larger island for some reason or has that problem now been solved by them going thru an intermediate station (small island) first?

I too believe that Ben and Locke are in a different time than the 06ers. I believe we will see that Sayid and Sun will end up on The Island in the same time as the rest of the 06ers. Cesar saw the flash of light on the plane and saw some of the 06ers disappear before the crash. That implies he and the remainder who crashed on the island did not jump time, to include Ben and Locke. The clips from next week may be a diversion. I think we we're seeing action involving different people in different time zones.

Posted by: dojemc | February 26, 2009 3:13 PM | Report abuse

I meant to say different time periods, not zones.

Posted by: dojemc | February 26, 2009 3:18 PM | Report abuse

Is it a donkey wheel or a polar bear wheel? Isn't the exit point where the red head found the polar bear in the desert?

Posted by: never2taxing | February 26, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

I didn't read through all of this yet, but how does Locke know that Jin is alive?

Posted by: SSDF1 | February 26, 2009 3:58 PM | Report abuse

Because Jin and Locke met up again during the timeflashing right before Locke moved the donkey wheel

Posted by: tjkass | February 26, 2009 4:14 PM | Report abuse

SR78- totoally agree with what you said "does anyone actually remember Christian or Richard telling Locke to find Heloise Hawking - that seemed made up" I got that same feeling

another thing that bugs me about the reveal of Locke/Bentham's visits to everyone......part of Jack's reasoning for trying to get everyone back to the island is that "Bentham" came to vist him and told him how (paraphrasing) "really horrible things happen to everyone that was left behind". But Locke's meeting with Jack was actually quite dull (aside from the father mention). Locke didn't really say anything beyond telling him they they needed to go back and that everyone back there needed them- no specifics. So I wonder why Jack got this in his head that really terrible things were happening back on the island and everyone was gonna die if they didn't all return. Locke didn't tell him any of that. Do you think the writers just missed the mark on this one? Normally I wouldn't even begin to doubt the writers, but we obviously now know that Locke/Benthan didn't go visit Jack a second time to elaborate. And I remember Jack telling Ben when they were in the funeral home with Locke's body that Locke had come to him and told him all these terrible things- so it's not that Ben was the one to tell him of these horrible things.

???

Posted by: Britt046 | February 26, 2009 4:17 PM | Report abuse

never mind, i remember they were together at the well before Locke jumped in to turn the wheel.

Posted by: SSDF1 | February 26, 2009 4:20 PM | Report abuse

"Is it a donkey wheel or a polar bear wheel? Isn't the exit point where the red head found the polar bear in the desert?"
---never2taxing

Exactly! Polar bears are trainable and expendable. They are used to turn the wheel, poof the bear disappears and ends up in the desert where they die (and found by Charlotte), and the island is moved. Maybe they have run out of polar bears.

One thing about them bears. When the Swan station imploded after Locke not hitting the button, Desmond and Locke found themselves outside the station. Locke says the polar bears saved them.

So we have polar bear training facilities, polar bears saving Locke/Des in an emergency, and a wheel in a very cold place too big to be turned by people, but easy for the polar bears. However Sawyer killed a polar bear that was attacking. Did it escape or was it performing a function to protect the island, as trained?

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 26, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

as for the length of jack's beard, here is my thought. perhaps locke's spirit visited jack and told him the terrible things that would happen (remember claire visiting kate in a dream?). jack thinks it's just locke being crazy . . . until he finds out that locke had killed himself x days/weeks prior. so it's possible there's another meeting haven't yet seen. just a thought.

bentham's son? why not ben linus? he has a ton of passports in different names, so presumably it's not that tough for him to get fakes. he could easily get some documentation saying he was bentham's son. heck, ben might have written the obit.

finally . . . who is good and who is evil is ben good? or is widemore good? perhaps they're both evil. we have seen the lengths both men will go to control the island. can either one really be described as good at this point?

Posted by: andillformthehead1 | February 26, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

The time loop theory has been updated for Season 5!

http://www.timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.html

Posted by: skinsfan6465 | February 26, 2009 5:03 PM | Report abuse

I think the moment that Ben decided to kill Locke was when he realized that he (Locke) wasn't going to try to bring Sun back to the island. Since they *all* had to go back (except, apparantly, for Aaron??), Ben was getting him out of the way so he could be free to manipulate Sun as well as the other 06ers.

It just dawned on me that "Ellie" from the 1950s-era Others is Eloise Hawking. So when Faraday tells her she looks familiar, it's because she's his mother. I'm guessing I'm the last one to realize this. Perhaps this is part of the reason that Whidmore is funding Faraday's work... because he and Faraday's mom are old friends (or more).

Posted by: floof | February 26, 2009 7:54 PM | Report abuse

Wow, after reading some of these posts I figured I missed a little at the beginning. I turned it on at 9:05 Wednesday but evidently missed the very beginning, so I watched that tonight.

Cesar was definitely looking for something, meaning he is on a mission, probably for Widmore. But I don't think he's the new Jack. I think he's the new Keamey. Sorta like sending in the CIA after the army screwed up.

Ilana does not have Sayid shackled to her, meaning he probably disappeared during the flash, yet she doesn't mention it. I think she's working with Cesar on a mission.

Since Sun and Sayid are O6 so they are probably in 1970. So I don't think Lopedia ran off with Sun. Who the mystery woman is though will be interesting. Maybe a stewardess he has a thing for. Remember, Lopedis knows where he is. Or he may have been paid by, like, Widmore, to fly the plane and was told where to go after he landed.

The building did not look like the Hydra station. I didn't see bear cages, etc. It might be something else. And if the plane landed on the air strip they were building, it ended up in the trees. Maybe they just built enough for a relatively safe landing.

One thing about those canoes. It sure seems coincidental that someone left those canoes where they crashed. Looks like an invitation to come visit the big island.

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 26, 2009 8:00 PM | Report abuse

Hey everyone - I haven't had time yet to read all the posts. so it's not too cool of me to toss in a thought of mine yet but that wont stop me ---- Locke's flat approach to asking everyone to go back to the island was so blatant it makes me think it was deliberate on the part of the writers/producers. I don't know why. But they are quite meticulous, and so I wonder. Locke almost seems dead already in his resigned manner. Or - dreaming in a way.

I liked the episode and suspect there was more to it that meets the eye. I'm willing to wait... to see. More later - Camis

Posted by: camis | February 26, 2009 8:02 PM | Report abuse

When Locke went on his modern-day walkabout to see his Losties, why didn't anyone of the O6 ask John 'how' he got back? No one was even curious. Bizarre.

Posted by: therestherub | February 26, 2009 9:15 PM | Report abuse

Ben kneeling before Locke before killing him. Overall I think Ben knows he's losing control, and that Locke is becoming a threat because he has been deemed the special one and also because he is now aligned with Widmore.

But also - I was waiting for an image that would relate back to the Doubting Thomas story. But Jack seems to be the Doubting Thomas now. If my biblical references are correct (and I'm not sure).. Ben could be a kind of Judas figure. The old debate - Judas as villain betrayed Jesus and got him killed vs Judas the most trusted who helped bring about Jesus' fate, at Jesus' request.

Jesus knew he had to die. Judas helped make that happen. Locke knows he has to die. Ben makes it happen. Except that Ben was PISSED off. Big difference. Also, I didn't buy Locke's tears over being a failure, unless HE is the Doubting Thomas.... well. now I don't know what I'm getting at here.

If I were Locke, I would have a big problem knowing who to trust at this point and who to align myself with. He doesn't believe in himself really, he relies on outside feedback. (don't we all). Plus he sure has a big mouth - he tells everyone everything.

Just thoughts... nagging thoughts...

Posted by: camis | February 26, 2009 9:45 PM | Report abuse

I think that both Widmore and Ben are evil. After awhile the leaders go bad, the power goes to their heads. So the island picks a new leader from new groups that are selected to come to the island. The war is not between good vs evil it's evil vs evil. They will wipe each other out and a clean new leader will be appointed.

John did have to die, but he could not kill himself, that would be against the rules. Ben knew this and therefore he killed John

Posted by: crudeone | February 26, 2009 10:19 PM | Report abuse

First of all, the Post needs to fix this site so we can reply to others' comments while we go through them.

To sr78... Christian did tell Locke about Ms. Hawking.

Posted by: PlzGodCome | February 27, 2009 1:24 AM | Report abuse

therestherub: ".... why didn't anyone of the O6 ask John 'how' he got back? No one was even curious. Bizarre."

GREAT POINT. And.. that's another reason those visits didn't feel "real" (even by Lost standards). Also - the way they all lectured John about how lonely he was.... could these visits have been in his imagination? Doubtful but...

Then again, none of the 06 wondered why Ben was so banged up when he got on the plane, either. Maybe they have just stopped noticing things.

But the fact that no one asked Locke how he got there, or why he's back in a wheelchair is super weird.. thanks for pointing it out!

Posted by: camis | February 27, 2009 1:55 AM | Report abuse

I think crudone nailed it. Locke had to die in order to get back to the island (maybe Christian had to die to get back to the island as well). Locke's dieing also had some effet on getting the 06 back to the island as well. Ben knew that Locke had to die. Ben also knew that Locke could not kill himself. My theory then is that Ben always intended to kill Locke. He had to coax Locke off the table so that Locke would not inadvertently slip and hang himself. Ben then intended to kill Locke so that Locke could fulfill his destiny (whatever that destiny is). The writers thru in a couple of reveals (Locke not going to see Sun/finding out Locke is working with Widmore/Locke knowing about Ms. Hawkings) to bring Ben into the loop story-wise and let us see that Ben is ticked when he learned that Locke is working with Widmore. This is nothing more than confirmation that the two (Widmore and Ben) are engaged in a "war" and Ben got pissed when he thought Widmore might be gaining the upper hand.

Posted by: dojemc | February 27, 2009 8:10 AM | Report abuse

Well, here's the thing about Ben and Widmore, and which is evil, good, or whatever. Widmore left the island. We don't know why. He may have left to save the island or he may have been forced to leave. The Others seem to trust Ben. They had him as their leader though I get the feeling, via Alpert, that not every Other was happy with Ben. We'll have to wait for the episode where Widmore/Ellie grow up and they leave the island.

On a parallel note, I find it interesting that this war extends off the island. Ben has Sayid killing Widmore's people. Widmore has tranquilizer happy guys going after the Lostees (why not bullets?). Yet Hawkings appears neutral. My guess is there are other people who are neutral too, like that butcher that stored Locke's body. This off-island infrastructure of support I find fascinating. It must be Dharma since it was Dharma food drops the Lostees were receiving. So Dharma survives I think, just not on the island. Why they would be willing to help Ben could only mean Ben did something he had to. Otherwise why would Hawking help Ben, the butcher help Ben, etc.

Ok, one more thing. Widmore says he was 17 when he saw Locke in 1954. I'll assume Ellie was about the same age. What were 17 year olds doing on the island? They were too young to be in the military and the army uniforms they were wearing were most likely from the Americans they killed. So how did Widmore/Ellie get to the island? Were they born there? If so then not being able to have children is something new to the island. If they were not born there, then they either came to the island like others have (plane crashes, boats, etc) or the have always been there, immortal, at least as long as they stay on the island, but they seem to be in no hurry to get back.

Ok, one very last thing and I swear I'll stop. The polar bears and dolphins. Trained to do something. The polar bears seem to have been trained to push the donkey wheel and provide emergency services, like saving Locke/Des from the imploding Swan station. This training seems to have been adandoned with the purge but it means Dharma knew about the donkey wheel and trained bears to push it, which may be why the purge was necessary. What did the dolphins do? One may have been involved in saving Michael/Sawyer when the Others took Walt. But we haven't seen much of the dolphins. But its clear the training stopped with the purge, yet Tom talked about how the bears were smarter than Sawyer at getting fish biskets. How could Tom, an Other, have worked at the Hydra station training bears with Dharma? My guess is he infiltrated Dharma and handled the purge on the small island where the Hydra station is.

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 27, 2009 8:46 AM | Report abuse

"First of all, the Post needs to fix this site so we can reply to others' comments while we go through them.

Posted by: PlzGodCome | February 27, 2009 1:24 AM"

The stream of conciousness entries on this site are what makes it special. It is not broken - and does not need to be 'fixed'.

Posted by: BraleyPJ | February 27, 2009 9:58 AM | Report abuse

1. Several people asked why none of the O6 asked Locke how he got off the island/what about the apparent time problem in which Locke seems to hang himself IMMEDIATELY after these meetings.

My answer: we are seeing the FINAL visit Locke makes to each of the O6: this explains why they aren't surprised, and why he appears to give up immediately after.

Posted by: PQSully | February 27, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

2. Several folks are debating who is good and who is evil: Ben or Widmore.

My answer: I continue to believe that both are acting according to what they believe is RIGHT, and damn the consequences. I'm further convinced after this past episode, where both claim to be doing the exact same thing: protecting the O6, trying to save the island. I had a revelation: Ben and Widmore both are like religious extremists. Whatever they believe the island to be, they are so devoted to what they perceive to be The Rules (like a religious canon) that they have both reached a point where they will do anything to defend their belief. Like the Spanish Inquistion. Like religious terrorists today. In a more comic vein, they reminded me of Life of Brian, where two opposing groups of Brian's followers argue over whether his lost footwear is a shoe or a sandal.

In the end, I think neither Ben nor Widmore is "the good guy" because I think neither really DOES understand the true nature of the island; they just think they do. I think the only reliable source of information is The Island itself, as personified by Christian, Charlie, and the others who have died there.

Posted by: PQSully | February 27, 2009 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Ok, this is a bit old but I got to thinking about when (ugh, forgot his name, Other that told Locke that he would have to die) he went to visit Locke as a boy to "test" him, he looked disappointed that he chose the knife. Maybe the test was to see what kind of leader he would be, like the inkblot test. What draws him. By choosing the knife he thinks that Locke is drawn to violence and thus isn't excited about him being the next leader. Just a thought. Course I don't think Locke IS that type of leader in the end. Would love to go back and take a look again at those items. :)

Course its really interesting Locke's affinity to knives and yet he's such a calm individual, not sure I'm expressing myself clearly. Would be interesting to find out why that would be the case.

Posted by: never2taxing | February 27, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

On the Chat, you raised a question about Jeremy Bentham's Canadian passport. It said he was BORN in New York - which explains the obit saying he was "from" New York - but it begs the question about how he came to be Canadian - not that it really matters (I think), other than this program seems to have characters from most of the British Commonwealth.

Posted by: jqw3827 | February 27, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

PQSully. You may be on to the answer but I still have some doubts. The meeting with Sayid and Hurley seem to be first time meetings but those may have been the only meetings Locke had with them. The meeting with Kate could be a last meeting with her based upon a total lack of surprise on her part in seeing Locke and lack of interest in what he had to say, as if she had heard it before. The meeting with Jack is what is causing me doubt. That seemed to be a first meeting, rather than a last meeting - based upon the facial hair and what I can remember without watching it again of the actual conversation between the two in the hospital.

Re Widmore being 17, perhaps he was born on the island but that doesn't mean he was conceived on the island. Thus, his birth wouldn't be in violation of the Island's rules. But I'm still holding out that he was a crew member on the Black Rock. They did use very young boys on ships in the period of time in which the Black Rock was sailing (I'm assuming the 1600-1700s). The question then is why didn't he age while on the island, assuming he was several hundred years old in 1954. Perhaps he has the same gift of ever-lasting life as Richard (at least while he is on the island). But this gift doesn't seem to apply to everyone living on the island. For instance, Ben himself. He came to the island as a young boy and he aged into the man he is now while living on the island. So why do some people age and others don't? Could it be due to the fact that Ben seemed to have the ability to leave and return to the island at will. Well, so did Richard; why didn't he age? This seems to be pointing to Richard being someone truly special. Sorry about the random thoughts. This aging thing is aging me.

Posted by: dojemc | February 27, 2009 12:40 PM | Report abuse

PQSully: "My answer: we are seeing the FINAL visit Locke makes to each of the O6: this explains why they aren't surprised, and why he appears to give up immediately after."

Wow. I think you nailed it. And when I think about those scenes in this way, I can see a great deal of poignancy in them. Locke is, also, saying "goodbye"

Posted by: camis | February 27, 2009 2:01 PM | Report abuse


At the risk of sounding like the leader of the PQSully fan club, I also like your idea that much if this is like how different religions (and individuals) can all "look" at the same thing and interpret it in different ways. The interpretations can grow to become full systems of thought, which can then be taken to be The Truth. Rules ensue.

But there are still different systems, and they clash, each side genuinely believing that they are Right and therefore others are Wrong. I know this is way over-simplified. But...

if The Island is a kind of living entity, you can interpret it 'til you're blue in the face but IT will decided what's going to happen. Course correcting along the way.

What I like best about Locke right now is that he is a man of faith who is no longer sure who to believe or what to believe in. I think he comes close to suicide not because he failed to rally the troops but because he has become confused and has, for now at least, LOST his way.


Posted by: camis | February 27, 2009 2:38 PM | Report abuse

I haven't been able to read through all of the comments above yet, but it seems to me that the NEW plane folk are perhaps in a different time period than Jack, Hurley, Kate, etc. Just as the Others don't seem to move separate from the island, maybe the planies are actually in the present, but the flash took the people that the island needed to use and put them back in Dharma times. That might be why Jin is still there, etc.
The station that the new folks went into seems to be older and run down and I immediately started thinking that there are now two different time periods that we are seeing...just like when we were watching the island Losties and the O6 off island.

Posted by: Ohyouknow | February 27, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

I think the visits from Locke were summed up nicely in the Lost Chat:

When Locke is off the Island, he's a wheelchair-bound chump. He has no skills, he can't walk, and he can't even kill himself.

That's why the scenes with the O6 played as they did. Locke was just pathetic.

never2taxing: I was having the same thoughts about the knife test. Both Widmore and Ben have killed their own people when it suited them. Ben set up Goodwin when he was hooking up with Juliet and Widmore neck-snapped random-Other-kid when he was going to lead Locke to their camp.

Once Locke knew Widmore was an Other he didn't shoot him because "he's one of [his] people."

Even though he had just stuck another Other(yeah, it's fun to say)in the back, I think the important distinction is that he doesn't kill his own people once he knows who they are. Hence, Alpert is upset when he chooses the knife.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | February 27, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Just wanted to say that I agree with the person above who said that what put Ben over the edge (what spurned him to kill Locke) was Locke's mention of Hawking, not Jin's status.

Ladies, I think you should watch that scene again...

Posted by: kmac119 | February 27, 2009 3:46 PM | Report abuse

I think Ben is unraveling in general because other people now know more about what is going on than he does. No matter what he finds out, he gets that stunned look in his eyes - each bit of "news" has its own significance, but overall I think it is freaking him out that he is losing control of things. That may be one reason HE wants to return to the island - to be the "boss" again.
I think it's too late for him to regain his power, but ... ?

Posted by: camis | February 27, 2009 6:45 PM | Report abuse

1. Didn't Widmore tell John to look up Ellie Hawking?

2. In the hotel room, note that Ben takes his jacket off long before John mentions Ms. Hawking. The jacket doesn't go back on until after Ben finishes up cleaning the room. Perhaps Ben sees the murder as "helping" John keep his promise to Sun. It sounds about right for BL's twisted thinking!

3. In the casket / on the hydra island again, John's scars (and leg injury) are gone

Posted by: aes4 | February 28, 2009 8:32 AM | Report abuse

The reason Richard Alpert is disappointed that Locke picks the knife is that he wants him to pick the compass. He wants him to pick the compass because he gave it to Locke during one of the flashes for Locke to give back to him to prove that they have met. If Locke would have recognized it as a child, it would have meant that he "remembered" the future.

Posted by: mmsdc | March 1, 2009 8:32 PM | Report abuse

Yes, what you said above. My "Locke doesn't kill Others so he has to be their leader" theory actually pushed the entire compass thing out of my mind. This is what Lost does to me...

But still, I think the fact that Locke doesn't kill his own people has something to do with why he's supposed to be their leader.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | March 2, 2009 12:51 AM | Report abuse

mmsdc wrote: "If Locke would have recognized it [the compass] as a child, it would have meant that he "remembered" the future.

Right, and Richard seemed very upset that young Locke does not "remember" the future. Maybe someone who remember's the future is the leader the Others are looking for. And, for someone that young to remember the future, you'd need to mind-travel, as Desmond did, but back to your infancy. I think this is what Ben can do and is why he can outwit almost everything (except his daughter being killed).

But I suspect the Others are not happy with Ben, but need him because of his abilities. When Richard finds Locke in 1954 with a time travel ability he hopes Locke will be "the one" to lead them in the future. But the compass test (and later meetings with Richard) showed he did not mind-travel and thus did not have the leadership skills the Others need, which they later found in young Ben. I'm guessing Aaron will be the "the one", or possibly Desmond since he is "special" according to Faraday and may have been mind-traveling back to his youth without understanding it.

I'm thinking that everything that the Others have done is to get a less crazy replacement for Ben who can mind-travel and thus know the future. So, until they find that replacement, Ben is tolerated.

One last thought on this: When Carl was hooked up to what seemed to be a torture/brainwashing machine, it might have been an attempt to have him become a leader through mind-travel. It is likely why children were kidnapped, to train them to become leaders. But handling such mind-traveling is tricky. Desmond is totally confused but seems to be getting a handle on it lately. Carl may have just not understood what it was about. Walt seemed to show some promise, but probably not enough. I wonder if other children are being "trained"?

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 2, 2009 10:32 AM | Report abuse

Whatever happened to the "other" children who were on the original plane crash and were subsequently captured by the "others"? We saw them kidnapped in the first season and we saw evidence of them one more time (or their feet at least) as they were walking thru the jungle. But we've never seen them at New Otherton or the second island or on the main island with Richard's crew. I would hope that there is some resolution to what happened to them by show's end. Perhaps later this season when there is a show dedicated to Aaron (so I've heard). Maybe he gets back to the island and leads the children in a revolt against the warring adults : - )

Posted by: dojemc | March 4, 2009 7:49 AM | Report abuse

From what I could find there were only three children who survived the crash of flight 815. Emma, Zach and Walt. Emma and Zach are brother and sister who were on the flight without parents, going to see their mother in LA. Emma and Zach made an appearance in a scene along with Cindy, a stewardess the Other's captured, when Jack was held in the bear cages on the second island. Here is info on them and other children associated with Lost:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Children

One theory about Emma is that Emma is short for Emily, and a grown up who looks like Emma is seen at a Dharma station in an episode when Ben is young. Emily is also the name of Ben and Locke's mother. Some theories have Emma being Locke and Ben's mom and that the kidnapped children are time traveling with the Lostees, not the Others, meaning that they are alone somewhere on the island with Cindy, who since she was a Lostee too would be time traveling with them. So, if true, expect our heros to stumble upon Cindy, Emma and Zach, probably real soon now.

And Zach is the young boy who carries the teddy bear we see when we only see their feet walking through the jungle.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 4, 2009 9:22 AM | Report abuse

Wow. Great response Bevjims. Thank you for the update on the kids. I forgot about the scene with the Cindy. Yes, you would think that they and Cindy would be time traveling as well since they were on the plane.

Enjoy the show tonight all. Looking forward to the comments tomorrow.

Posted by: dojemc | March 4, 2009 1:37 PM | Report abuse

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