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Posted at 10:20 AM ET, 02/12/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analyses: 'This Place Is Death'

By Liz Kelly
Lost

Daniel (Jeremy Davies) and Charlotte (Rebecca Mader). (ABC)

This week, Jen Chaney and Liz Kelly debate their way through the season's fifth episode and give a ringing endorsement to an hour that contained both the Frozen Donkey Wheel and the Smoke Monster. If only Taller Ghost Walt had shown up, it would have been a trifecta. Don't forget to join the "Lost" Hour discussion live at 3 p.m. ET.

Jen: Liz, before we start delving into all the time travel and island mythology stuff -- and believe me, we will -- I thought we should begin by praising something a little more basic, and that made tonight's episode particularly enjoyable for me: The actors.

We regularly sing the praises of Michael Emerson and Terry O'Quinn (as well we should), but I want to single out two ladies for what I thought were just shattering performances. First, Yunjin Kim, our Sun, who finally showed a glimmer of her former self during that conversation with Ji Yeon, who -- contrary to our theory from last week -- is indeed three years old. Her face betrayed every crack in her foundation when she spoke to her daughter, then immediately glued itself back together when she had to pull a gun on Ben. Just tremendous. And Rebecca Mader's work as Charlotte -- whose constant is apparently not Daniel -- was both heartbreaking and, at times, totally eerie. When she looked at Jin and said, "This place is death," I got an absolutely frigid chill. And it was 70 degrees in D.C. today.

Liz: Agreed. I thought the real standout was Mader, who managed to die without overacting. She hit every mark exquisitely -- right up to her last request for a candy bar before bed. And I know we spend a lot of time praising Terry O'Quinn and Michael Emerson, but after tonight's show I am so ready to see those two share the same set again. I'm hoping we'll get there next week.

But Charlotte is a good place to start. Our suspicion that she was an island baby was confirmed when she unburdened herself to Daniel about her Dharma upbringing. And I have to admit I was caught completely off guard when she said Daniel had been on the island when she was a child; that he was the "crazy man" who said she'd die if she ever came back. I'm guessing that was time-traveling Daniel, who went back in time to try to prevent that eventual end for his sweet Charlotte.

Much more after the jump...

Jen: A good guess. Her story -- that her mother made them leave and she never saw her father again -- intrigued me, too. We got into that whole Daniel-and Charlotte-as-Luke-and-Leia stuff at the end of last week's discussion. Is it possible they are brother and sister, or maybe half-brother and half-sister step-brother and step-sister, a la Boone and Shannon? Because the fact that Charlotte's mom left and took her back to England kind of rings an Eloise Hawking bell for me.

Liz: Me too. And Charlotte didn't mention her father's name.

Jen: No, she didn't. Maybe it's Widmore ... or even Richard Alpert?

Liz: Could be. Though, I'm intrigued by her fluency in Korean. Why would she be conversant in a language that doesn't seem to have much to do with her life-long pursuit? I doubt it was merely so she could warn Jin to keep Sun away from the island.

Jen: Ooh, good question. Maybe Dr. Candle taught her a thing or two. All the more ironic if Miles is his son. Especially since, in response to the translation question, all he could come up with was, "He's Korean; I'm from Encino." Don't kid yourself, Miles. You're more than an Encino Man.

Liz: Another thing we should mention here is that Sawyer has developed the dreaded nose bleed.

Jen: Yes, everyone has. There were too many flashes, one right after the other. Which makes me think the wheel initially wasn't grossly off its axis the way it is now. Or then. Or whatever. But maybe we should hold off on the wheel talk until later.

Liz: The only one who hasn't had the nosebleed is Daniel, I believe.

Jen: Right you are about Faraday. He's unbleedable.


Jin (Daniel Dae Kim) gets his bearings. (ABC)

Liz: The super-speeded up time travel flashes may have been hell on the Losties, but they really did help the writers to speedily fill in the blanks of Danielle Rousseau's storyline and give a little insight into the Smoke Monster -- who made a reappearance for the first time since he (?) ravaged Keamy and his mini-militia.

Jen: True. Jin saved Rousseau's life in that situation by preventing her from jumping down that smoke monster hole.

Now, for those of you wondering why Rousseau didn't seem to know Jin when she met him post-crash, even though we now know they clearly had a notable adventure back in the 1980s, the answer seems to be this: Rousseau could not have remembered Jin because, when she initially encountered him in 2004, he had not yet traveled back in time to 1988. EW's Jeff Jensen addressed this issue in more detail in this piece; please report to question No. 5 for a lengthier explanation.

Some other notable matters related to Rousseau and co. They could hear someone over their radio repeating the "Lost" numbers, which is in keeping with what Rousseau later related to the Losties about the transmissions she heard when she first arrived on the island. But who was sending that transmission? The voice was male and it sounded familiar to me, but I couldn't place it. Hopefully some clever person is doing a voice analysis as we speak.

Also, in the post-smoky flash, Jin stumbled onto the beach and saw some interesting items strewn about, including a violin and a music box with a ballerina in it. Not only was the ballerina a reminder of Sun and her glass ballerina from season three, but we'd actually seen that very music box before. Sayid fixed it for Danielle when she was holding him hostage all the way back in season one. I have to wonder where all that stuff came from (did the smoke monster throw up or something?) and whether it has greater significance.


The young Danielle Rousseau (Melissa Farman). (ABC)

Finally, Rousseau said she told Jin that they left for the island on Nov. 15, 1988. Which happens to be the same date that the Soviets launched the Buran space shuttle. What's the "Lost" connection? I direct you to the section of this Wiki entry entitled Video.

To quote, for those who don't have time for all that clicking:

"Part of the launch was televised, but the actual lift-off was not shown. This led to some speculation that the mission may have been fabricated, and that the subsequent landing may not have been from orbit but from a shuttle-carrying aircraft, as with the Space Shuttle Enterprise. Since then, the launch video has been released to the public, confirming that the shuttle did indeed lift off, with the poor weather conditions described by the Soviet media at the time easily seen."
Reminds me a lot of the movie "Capricorn One," and also the phony Oceanic 815 at the bottom of the ocean. I believe you have something to tell us about hieroglyphics, Liz? How's that for a segue?


Liz: Lovely.

The temple where Smokey seems to live -- which we saw for the first time in tonight's show -- was covered in what looked like ancient hieroglyphics. This set off a couple of alarm bells in my head. First, when I talked to Michael Emerson last week he strongly hinted that we should be keeping Egypt in mind as the show moves forward. Secondly, we've seen some of those symbols before. Remember season 2 when Locke and Jack let the clock run all the way down to 108 minutes without pressing the button on the Hatch computer? This is what happened to the timer.

Finally: Charlotte's statement that she knew more about ancient Carthage than about the present time (which is really amusing considering she didn't know when she was when she said that). But the Carthage thing is intriguing. Why mention that?

Carthage was located in modern day Tunisia. And you might recall Tunisia as the country where Charlotte found a polar bear skeleton and where Ben touched down at the end of last season after he turned the Frozen Donkey Wheel. It'll be interesting to see if John lands in the same place.

From what I can gather in a quick Web search, the Carthaginians were a seafaring people -- originally Phoenicians -- who had a thing for child sacrifice. Which is suddenly prescient given two things: Christian Shepard's specific reference to Locke as a "sacrifice" and the island's fascination with babies. And, according to Wikipedia, the Carthaginians didn't use their own children for the sacrifices. Instead, they would "buy children for the purpose of sacrifice or even raise servant children instead of offering up their own."

Jen: So are you suggesting that Locke's destiny wasn't really to lead The Others, but to be their sacrificial lamb?

Liz: I think that's a strong possibility, especially given Shepard's dismissal of Ben's advice. When Locke said Ben had told him (Locke) that he would take his place as leader, Shepard said something to the effect of "Ben's advice is about as worthless to you as a tub of Dharma mayo."

Jen: No, no. Christian would never be so disrespectful of mayonnaise.

Liz: I think you're confusing him with Hurley.

Jen: No, you're confusing mayo with ranch dressing. But he did dis Ben. Which is interesting. Whose side is Christian on?

Liz: Well, should we keep calling him Christian? I think a better question would be "Whose side is Jacob on?"

Jen: Do you definitely think he is Jacob? Just because he is shacking up in the cabin and ordering Locke around while holding creepy lanterns?

Liz: I'm just putting two and two together. But on the island, that probably equals 42, so who knows.

Jen: As you know, I keep holding onto this notion that Locke is Jacob, mainly because I was convinced when I paused my DVR during "The Man Behind the Curtain" that I saw Terry O'Quinn in that dang chair.

But here's the funny thing. I felt like Christian Shepard resembled Locke physically in this episode more than I ever noticed before. Not sure if my eyes were playing tricks or if there's something more to that. But I thought it was worth noting.

Now, let's play Wheel ... of ... Frozen Donkey!

It was really skipping like an old Willie Nelson record when Locke and Christian/Jacob/dude from "Full Metal Jacket" got to it. Which would explain why the flashes had gotten so frequent. But that also suggests it wasn't skipping quite as badly before, just after Ben turned it. And that raises the question: What did Ben think he was doing? Trying to set the island to a specific place? Or purposely causing all those flashes? I'm not sure about the purposely causing that many flashes option.

Liz: My thinking is that Ben only knew that he had to turn the wheel, but not how far or which way. He's like a three-year-old trying to drive a car (which I do not condone. I am firmly anti-toddler drivers). But the other thing that interested me there was the fact that John didn't push the wheel, as Ben did. He pulled it. So was he returning it to the place that Ben had moved it from originally? There's no way he could have consciously known which way to turn it or how far. And wouldn't pushing have been easier for him?

Jen: That's a great question. If it truly was Locke's destiny to do what he did, well, he would have known to pull even if he wasn't conscious of it, right?

Liz: Another elegant detail: Locke came somewhat full circle. He was again handicapped -- by a seriously fractured leg -- and had to overcome that fracture to reach the wheel and fulfill what we have been led to believe is his destiny.

Jen: And speaking of full circles, John falling down that well as a light gleams from down below? Well, that reminded me of Locke lowering Kate down into the hatch in season two, even though he clearly wanted to go first. He finally got his wish. And he was gleeful, wasn't he: "Where would be the fun in that?"

Liz: Good call. And Kate similarly fell, though she was lucky enough to only mess up her hair. So much easier to deal with than a compound fracture.

We also had Shepard's final comment to "Say hello to my son." Reminiscent of Ana Lucia's recent "Libby says hello," to Hurley.

Jen: Can I pause to point out something totally nutty about Christian S.?

Liz: As if I could stop you.

Jen: I may be off my rocker -- and yes, I do mean the one I keep at Jacob's cabin, you know, for when I summer there in July -- but I just thought more about the fact that the actor's name is John Terry. As in John [Locke] and Terry [O'Quinn]. Are the writers messing with us again, or do I just have too much time on my hands, sort of like Styx in 1981?

Liz: If you try to tie in "I'm Sailing Away" I will have you committed. And, no, not to the same hospital where Hurley was kept.

Ahem.

Since we've gotten as far as Ben's exit from the island, maybe we should follow him and talk about the Oceanic Six and their continuing adventures with Ben Linus.

We saw the rest of the dock scene -- and I'm sure everyone was surprised (not) to see Ben emerge unscathed. That man can talk his way out of anything. I've grudgingly joined the "Ben is Ultimately Good" team (no choice really when Michael Emerson himself thinks that's the case), but he still has some rotten ways of getting his job done. He lied to Jack about having talked to Locke before he died. And he's lying to Sun about why Locke didn't tell her about Jin and the ring.

Still, he's pretty much where he was before. He gained Sun, but he lost Kate and Sayid. And Hurley is still behind bars.

Jen: Hang on. Something important just happened. You just said you have joined the "Ben is Ultimately Good" team, of which, I believe, I am captain. Which means I am entitled to gloat. So here goes.

GLOAT!!!

Okay, I'm done.

Liz: Don't make me remind you of your Jen Chaney Jin Theory (see the season opener analysis for more on this).

Jen: See, now that was unnecessary. Especially since a sidebar of that theory was the Jen Chaney Miles Theory, which may be correct.

Anyway -- a couple of notes about Ben:

First, right after he flipped out and pulled over the van ("If you kids don't stop threatening to kill me, I will turn this car around right now!"), he said he had gone to great lengths to protect the Oceanic Six's safety. For some wacky reason (maybe because I'm team captain?) I actually took him at face value on that.

Second: I found an anagram! And it's an anagram that ... probably doesn't mean anything!

Liz: Does this have anything to do with Styx?

Jen: No, Mr. Roboto. When the group was at the marina, the camera quickly panned past a boat in the background with the name "Illusion" on it. Which is an anagram for Linus Oil.

What does Benjamin Linus have to do with oil? See, this is where the anagram starts to break down. But my first thought was of an oil freighter. And that made me wonder whether Ben somehow arranged for the freighter to show up, which would explain why he was so shocked when Keamy killed Alex and "broke the rules."

Liz: Hmmm. That isn't the only anagram you found, though, is it? What of Canton Rainier?

Jen: That was actually mentioned, either by a commenter or on another blog after last week's episode. But yes, Canton-Rainier, the name of the fake carpet company plastered on Ben's van, is an anagram for reincarnation.

Liz: Which is cute considering the van has mainly been used to cart around John Locke's shopworn corpse.

Jen: And that makes me wonder if Hawking is going to reincarnate Locke as part of the effort to send back the Six. That's in keeping with what Christian said about Hawking sending him back. Although he didn't say Locke would be alive, per se.

Liz: I was actually surprised at Ms. Hawking's nonchalance about Ben's showing up with only two of the Oceanic Six. In the season premiere she made it pretty clear that she needed them all or all bets were off.

Jen: Yeah, she was kinda like, "Oh well. What are you gonna do? Let's just get this party started." I wonder if Desmond's presence had anything to do with that.

Liz: So you're saying one Desmond is worth four Oceanic Six survivors? That sounds right considering the economy.

Jen: What I am saying is that we know Des is "special." And if Des is special, I wonder if his powers could be used to facilitate the stabilization of the island. Hawking didn't seem surprised to see him.

Liz: No, but we do need to keep in mind Desmond's promise to Penny that he would never return to the island. I don't see him breaking that promise lightly.

Jen: I totally have that in mind. And I am remembering the look on Penny's face, which said, "You are so going back, brotha."

Liz: I guess we'll find out next week. I think our work is done here... until 3 p.m.'s "Lost" Hour chat, that is. Plenty left to talk about, including what line deserves the "Quote of the Week" distinction. I think we can all agree on the winner of "Most Gruesome Scene of the Week" -- that would be when the nameless Frenchie's arm came off in Jin's hands when he was trying to rescue him from the Smokemonster. Yuck.

-----

Next week on "Lost": The way back to the island is revealed to members of the Oceanic Six, but there's trouble ahead when not all of them wish to return.

By Liz Kelly  | February 12, 2009; 10:20 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

first!

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Ew, Boone & Shannon were step-siblings, not half! She seduced him, remember?

Posted by: blahblah6b | February 12, 2009 10:31 AM | Report abuse

You say: Rousseau could not have remembered Jin because, when she initially encountered him in 2004, he had not yet traveled back in time to 1988.

But Charlotte remembered Daniel and he apparently has not yet traveled back to meet her? Or has he? I am so confused!

I also noted the bit about John pulling instead of pushing. I wonder if this is a problem too because Christian instructed him to push.

Posted by: hodie | February 12, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

What was smokey up to? He pulls the french dude into the temple, ripping his arm off in the process. Shortly thereafter the french dude starts calling for the others to come help him, that he's fine. The other frenchies go in, then presumably Rousseau has to kill them since they now want to kill her. What did the temple/smokey do to these guys?

The frenchies seem sane enough. Rousseau's boyfriend prOfesses love, then tries to kill her. So what happened in the temple and were the frenchies just sick/insane, or did they know something that made it make sense to try to kill Rousseau?

I'm guessing the later. Its like the Others, who feel killing people is just normal and a way of protecting something much greater, so great it overcomes the strongest human bonds. Whatever the secret of the island is, it must involve saving the world, as the Others have been saying from the beginning.

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 10:54 AM | Report abuse

The Frenchie who lost his arm was Montand; Rousseau mentioned the arm thing in Season 1, so as soon as Smokey started pulling on him I knew what was going to happen. Blecch.

Posted by: moonwatcher13 | February 12, 2009 10:57 AM | Report abuse

As for Rousseau not remembering Jin, that is interesting since Alpert remembered Locke traveling back to 1954 and giving him the compass before Locke traveled back. So I'm guessing Rousseau might have recognized Jin when she first met him. I'll need to find some archives to see how she reacted when she first meets him in a previous episode. If she understands the time travel aspects of the island she will know that Jin would not know her since he had not traveled back yet, but I'm guessing Rousseau has no clue about time travel. Does anyone know how she reacted when she first met Jin in previous episodes?

Another thing. We have always wondered about the "virus". Rousseau said its what sickened her companions and made them crazy. Desmond was told about it. We now know it was smokey, or something in the temple. Maybe the whole virus thing was Dharma's reaction to some encounters with smokey that they wrongly assumed was a virus.

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Please do not try to tie in "Sail Away," because then you just bring aliens into the whole mess.

My favorite quote has to be Miles's "He's Korean; I'm from Encino" line. I actually burst out laughing at that one.

Posted by: Janine1 | February 12, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

Danielle likely doesn't recognize Jin because when she meets the losties, she's fairly off her rocker.

On the other side of time travel, Daniel is stunned by Charlotte's revelation about him which obviously suggests that he hadn't been there yet. But in an earlier episode, we did see him inside the Orchid. Presumably this Daniel is post-Charlotte's death. Which further raises the question, why would he, with his understanding of time, try so hard to go back to save her? I really am looking forward to seeing how LindelCuse permit the changing of timelines.

Posted by: megman | February 12, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

This is kind of a stretch, but what if Charlotte is the daughter of Ben and Annie? And for some reason Annie and Charlotte left the island, making Ben mad and leading him to gas the Dharma people? Would that fit the timeline or make Charlotte the wrong age?

I don't see how Eloise/Ellie could have been the mother of Charlotte AND Daniel, because C and D seem so close in age, and neither has mentioned being estranged from his/her mother, so if they shared a mother it seems they would have known each other.

Posted by: cgillesp | February 12, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

I don't remember how Rousseau reacted when she met Jin, but it's possible that she didn't remember him after that long. I'm not sure if I could remember the face of someone I knew for only a few hours 16 years ago, especially if I'd gone crazy in between.

Posted by: moonwatcher13 | February 12, 2009 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Push/pull, what difference does it make? They both made the wheel turn clockwise...

Posted by: PostReader4 | February 12, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

I thought when Rousseau saw her boyfriend on the beach that it was the Smoke Monster in disguise... same with the voice in the pit after Montand was pulled in - a Smokie. (That totally reminded me of "it's only a flesh wound" Holy Grail moment)

And what's with these comatose people - Claire's mom, Faraday's girlfriend - and how does that all fit in with the Island and time-traveling?

All in all, a rip snorter of an episode. I watched both hours since I missed last week's episode, so I was dreaming Lost (specifically Lost pirates) last night.

Posted by: mat00 | February 12, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

cgillesp - I wonderered the same thing about whether Ben was Charlotte's father... and did he kidnap Alex after/because Charlotte left the island.

Posted by: mat00 | February 12, 2009 11:16 AM | Report abuse

"Whatever the secret of the island is, it must involve saving the world, as the Others have been saying from the beginning."

I think the Others THINK they know the secret of the island (and thus are acting on Ben's plan based on that opinion), but I am more and more convinced that Jacob--the island itself, as represented by Christian--is the only source of TRUE information. His statement about Ben's reliability (and by extension the Others, who have been acting according to his instructions for years) speaks volumes. And the ancient temple reinforces for me that even the Black Rock people are just one in a long line of groups of people who have been drawn to the island and then developed their own interpretation of it and its powers and purpose (whether religious, philosophical, or scientific).

Posted by: PQSully | February 12, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

I thought maybe Daniel was Charlotte's father and she just didn't remember him as her father.

Posted by: memphis1 | February 12, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

A few things:

1. I got the impression that Jin somehow knew that Charlotte spoke korean, and was actually asking HER to translate, but everyone just assumed he was talking to Miles. Maybe that was just my imagination, though - I don't know how he would know that.

2. If Rousseau didn't remember Jin because he hadn't gone back in time yet, than how did Charlotte remember Faraday? He obviously hadn't gone back in time yet, because he didn't know about it.

3. You forgot Locke - he hasn't had a nosebleed either.

Posted by: anne_t | February 12, 2009 11:29 AM | Report abuse

Does the term "Christian shepherd" have anything to do with Christian Shepard?

Posted by: Jeannie8 | February 12, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

"I don't remember how Rousseau reacted when she met Jin, but it's possible that she didn't remember him after that long. I'm not sure if I could remember the face of someone I knew for only a few hours 16 years ago, especially if I'd gone crazy in between."

I totally agree with this, and would add that scruffy time-traveling Jin looks substantially different from newly castaway and still pretty clean and shiny Jin. Also, not knowing about the time-travel business, even if Jin looked familiar, I doubt Daneille would think "Hey, that's the same guy I met 16 years ago when I shipwrecked and he's still the exact same age!"

Posted by: PQSully | February 12, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

"I got the impression that Jin somehow knew that Charlotte spoke korean, and was actually asking HER to translate, but everyone just assumed he was talking to Miles. Maybe that was just my imagination, though - I don't know how he would know that."

The season where she showed up on the island, Jin noticed her laughing at a private conversation Jim and Sun were having in Korean and later confronted her and told her he knew she understood Korean.

Posted by: PQSully | February 12, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

anne_t, I thought the same thing (that Jin knew Charlotte spoke Korean), but it didn't occur to me that we don't know how he knows. Interesting. (At this point, I've forgotten how WE learned it.)

Posted by: Janine1 | February 12, 2009 11:36 AM | Report abuse

I didn't expect what happened at the temple at all. If this is the "lair" for Smokey, why is this the place Ben told his people to go as "the last safe place on the Island".

Posted by: skipper7 | February 12, 2009 11:54 AM | Report abuse

Great analysis by all.

Did anyone else notice that when Locke turned the donkey wheel the well no longer existed? Therefore the island should be locked in time before the temple ever existed. Yes?

Posted by: dickfncheney | February 12, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

>> This is kind of a stretch, but what if Charlotte is the daughter of Ben and Annie? <<

I know that the Dharma people were a bunch of free-love hippies, but what indication is there that Ben has EVER been "romantically involved" with ANYONE? (at least, voluntarily)

I would tend to doubt that he would be involved with any of the Hostiles/Original Others after he became the leader following the Purge, and before the Purge, Ben was an awfully awkward kid.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 12, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

>> Did anyone else notice that when Locke turned the donkey wheel the well no longer existed? Therefore the island should be locked in time before the temple ever existed. Yes? <<

No. Locke's turning of the wheel did not stop the time flashes. It is still flashing, but apparently Mrs. Hawking has determined when the Island will be in time-sync with the Oceanic Six, three years post-Island, thereby giving them a window to go back to the Island's time.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 12, 2009 12:07 PM | Report abuse

Just checked in with Doc Jensen's commentary. It seems Charlotte already revealed on a past episode that her father's name was "David Lewis".

Posted by: mat00 | February 12, 2009 12:07 PM | Report abuse

skipper7 wrote: "I didn't expect what happened at the temple at all. If this is the "lair" for Smokey, why is this the place Ben told his people to go as "the last safe place on the Island"."

It would be the safest place if smokey was on your side.

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Rousseau was obviously pregnant in last night's episode. Her boyfriend was certainly not Ben. But Ben claims to be the father!!

Anyone?

Posted by: peacock46 | February 12, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

Ben has been known to lie, a little.

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Push/pull, what difference does it make?

Posted by: PostReader4 | February 12, 2009 11:12 AM

------------------------------

Because nothing is coincidental on this show.

Posted by: fft5305 | February 12, 2009 12:29 PM | Report abuse

The voice was Hurley's, the implications of which are immeasurable.

Posted by: welshbt | February 12, 2009 12:31 PM | Report abuse

And really, when Des promised Penny that he would never go back, was it really a promise that anyone (including her) thought he would be able to keep?

Posted by: fft5305 | February 12, 2009 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Rousseau didn't recognize Jin because at the time she interacted with the Losties, she had not met him. Perhaps if she were still alive, the memory would now be present--just as the memory of Daniel was planted in Desmond's mind, or like the Richard/Locke/compass circle.

Daniel has been in Dharma time--in "Because You Left" we see Daniel in a Dharma outfit at the Orchid Station.

To me it sounded like Hurley's voice repeating the numbers on the transmission Rousseau's team heard.

Did anyone else notice Ben's reaction to Desmond's statement that he was there to see Daniel's mother. Maybe Ben didn't know?

Posted by: Burnie | February 12, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

I think John Locke is Jacob too. I think there is a lot of spiritual stuff going on and some souls are caught in different timelines and now many of them are bumping into each other.

I'm assuming that in the next episode or two, the island gang will jump again back in time and Daniel, fresh from his despair over losing Charlotte, will bump into her as a little girl and it will result in a "new memory" like the one Desmond had when Daniel told him to find his mother. With any luck, we will see who little-girl-Charlotte is hanging out with and she won't just be wadering around in the jungle alone. AT LEAST a young Candle/Halliwax offspring should be there and we should find out if his name is Jin or Miles...

What is more compelling to me is if these jumps back in time can influence the future. Like if Jin had warned Rousseau to hide and protect her baby from the Others, would that have prevented Ben from stealing Alex in the future? Then Alex never would have been shot... and so Ben wouldn't be out to kill Widmore's daughter Penny?

Also, what IS with the sins-of-the-father stuff? There are a lot of parent-child dramas on this show. There must be more to the Christian Shepherd story. Perhaps he was a drunk when we first met him because he had been to the island before and like the later-Jack, he kept trying to get back?

Anyway, Locke is Jacob and someone needs to shoot Ben. Sun should have done it last night. Whoa!

Posted by: a68comeback | February 12, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

"I didn't expect what happened at the temple at all. If this is the "lair" for Smokey, why is this the place Ben told his people to go as "the last safe place on the Island"."

Remember that after Keamy killed Alex, Ben unleashed the smoke monster on Keamy and his men. Perhaps the smoke monster is controllable and acts at the whim of the Others to protect them and the island from intruders.

Posted by: GlennSG | February 12, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

It's good to know that I'm not the only one that has Lost dreams after the show.

I agree with the theories that Rousseau had a case of the "spaaaace maaaadnessss" when she met up with the Losties later on therefore she wouldn't recognize Jin.

It also just ocurred to me last nite that Locke has no idea that Christian Shepherd is Jack's dad when he asked "Who's your son?" For all we know Christian IS Jacob.

Or not.

It could be ANYTHING with this show.

Posted by: wadejg | February 12, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

It looked like Ben didn't know.

And how about that creepy look on Mrs. Hawking's face at the end?

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 12, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

I usually lurk but I just wanted to throw in a thought that popped in my head last night. When the temple was shown with the hieroglyphics I wondered...could Jacob be a god? Does this island's mystery go further back than Blackrock? Could Richard be like a eunoch of Jacob's and that's why he never ages?

I was talking to a coworker about Charlotte remembering Daniel warning her when she was a little girl and I had speculated that it could've been when he was time-jumping.

Would the Losties be experiening these time flashes if John had turned the wheel instead of Ben? This might be irrelevant but I can't help but wonder...

Posted by: linda1413 | February 12, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Let us step back for a minute and look at the bigger picture:

Charlotte, in her fugue-like state, tells Jin "that this place is death" and says it as though she is channeling, this is not just Charlotte babbling.

So if the grand theory is that the island is death, or purgatory, and that the people still on the island actually died in the plane crash and the oceanic 6 actually survived, we have the island-bound folk trying to lure the 6 to return to the island.

Now a microscosm of this is the smoke monster pulling one of the French guys down the hole and (arm ripped asunder) presumably killing him, but then, his purgatory self luring his friends down into the hole too. They did not succumb immediately, but they were not themselves when they came out, to take Danielle's word for it.

As to why the dead (or half dead) would want to persuade their still living companions to join them, I can't venture a guess.

Posted by: jmonk1915 | February 12, 2009 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Has anyone else been thinking about Atlantis?

Posted by: Burnie | February 12, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Rousseau was obviously pregnant in last night's episode. Her boyfriend was certainly not Ben. But Ben claims to be the father!!

Anyone?

Posted by: peacock46 | February 12, 2009 12:13 PM

Part of the reason Danielle is crazy is because the others stole her child. She told the Losties about the white smoke (or was it gray) that suddenly appeared shortly before her daughter Alexandra disappeared. When the Losties saw it they thought the others were coming for Aaron. Ben is NOT Alex's biological father (or even adoptive father if you want to get technical). He is simply the leader of the group that kidnapped her when she was a baby. Alex did not know until Ben introduced her to Danielle last season.

Posted by: jes11 | February 12, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

When Charlotte was about to die, she was telling Daniel that someone told her never to return to the island or else she will die and that she thought it was Daniel.. could it be that in the episode 'Jughead' when Daniel was at the site of the bomb and the suspicious girl pointing the gun at him (cant remember her name), was that her? Or am I just getting confused... Cant wait to see next week!

Posted by: msmurtle | February 12, 2009 12:50 PM | Report abuse

I think that when Ben saw Desmond at the church, he assumed that Desmond was there to try to get back to the island as well. As I recall, their exchange went something along the lines of:

Desmond - "What are you doing here?"

Ben - "The same thing as you."

Desmond (surprised) - "You're also looking for Faraday's mother?"

Based on Ben's reaction to that last line, I think Desmond caught him by surprise. Ben also probably guessed that the only way Desmond could have known about "Faraday's mother" and where to find her would have been from Charles Widmore -- who Ben knows to have been Faraday's employer and backer.

Posted by: NotDoc | February 12, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

"

The voice was Hurley's, the implications of which are immeasurable.

Posted by: welshbt | February 12, 2009 12:31 PM "

Which voice are you referring to? The one repeating the numbers on the transmission??

Posted by: thrh | February 12, 2009 12:55 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, burnie, i've been thinking atlantis, but I don't know enought about atlantis to prove my point. It's just a hunch. I had actually written about it the comments from last week's analysis, but when I hit "submit," my computer froze and the post got lost in cyberspace.

Robert was Rousseau's lover (did anyone catch the lapse in accent where another frenchie pronounced his name with an english accent rather than "Row-bear"?). She was pregnant when she got to the island and gave birth. A week later is when the smoke appeared and the others came to get alex. I liked her devolution into madness last night and thought her water was going to break when she went to shoot Robert.

This show makes my brain hurt.

Posted by: eet7e | February 12, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Would the Losties be experiening these time flashes if John had turned the wheel instead of Ben? This might be irrelevant but I can't help but wonder...

Posted by: linda1413 | February 12, 2009 12:42 PM

Christian said as much to John. He said, 'I told YOU to move the island John'. Locke's response was something to the effect of Ben said he'd do it & I should stay and lead his people and Chrisian said, 'Now when did listening to Ben ever get you anywhere' (or something similar).

Posted by: jes11 | February 12, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

When Charlotte was about to die, she was telling Daniel that someone told her never to return to the island or else she will die and that she thought it was Daniel.. could it be that in the episode 'Jughead' when Daniel was at the site of the bomb and the suspicious girl pointing the gun at him (cant remember her name), was that her? Or am I just getting confused... Cant wait to see next week!

msmurtle - the woman holding the gun on Daniel in "Jughead" was Ellie, who I suspect (and I believe others have also speculated) is a young Eloise Hawking. In that scene, Daniel was talking to his own mother, although it was prior to his birth. See, you just thought you were confused! With this show, I'm always confused. And sorry for the political moniker - i haven't posted on this site in several months and haven't changed it.

Posted by: texanforobamabiden | February 12, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Hurley reading the numbers is spooky. But if I remember correctly Hurley first heard the numbers from a guy in the institution, who freaked out when he learned Hurley "used" the numbers and won the lottery. The guy was so freaked out they had to sedate him. Then fate started destroying everything Hurley did with the money, leading Hurley to consider the numbers cursed.

If it is Hurley's voice it will be interesting to see what made him make the looped tape pre-1988 on the island, which also means they time travel when they return, or they simply return pre-1988, which is where Sawyer and gang may be now considering the well disappeared on the last time flash. My guess, the numbers are a code, or a combination, that opens something or deactivates something, like Jughead. Hurley reads the numbers over the radio to get the numbers to whomever needs them.

Another guess, Sawyer digs the well to try to save Locke.

Still wondering about the hiroglyphs. No egyptians on the island, yet, unless the Others are ancient egyptians as per my ancient god theory of the Others, though Ellie and Widmore do not look egyptian. Richard with those eyes on the other hand...

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

The boat's name was Illusion? That's obviously the writers' homage to "Arrested Development," which also took place in SoCal, and had many scenes at the Long Beach Marina. Plus, one of G.O.B.'s most famous tricks - or rather, illusions - was to make the family boat disappear!

Thank you. I tie pretty much everything to "Arrested Development."

Posted by: beisbol | February 12, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

RE: Would the Losties be experiening these time flashes if John had turned the wheel instead of Ben? This might be irrelevant but I can't help but wonder...

Posted by: linda1413 | February 12, 2009 12:42 PM

Christian said as much to John. He said, 'I told YOU to move the island John'. Locke's response was something to the effect of Ben said he'd do it & I should stay and lead his people and Chrisian said, 'Now when did listening to Ben ever get you anywhere' (or something similar).

Posted by: jes11 | February 12, 2009 12:57 PM

I wonder, too--did Ben purposely push the wheel off center to cause the time slippage so that he would be required to return to the island without dying & thus perhaps retain his control? Ben always has a plan.

Posted by: Burnie | February 12, 2009 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Yes, thrh the voice saying the numbers was Hurley's. Comes through very clear when he says 23. And now after reading the Doc Jensen riff on Dave and Toomey it seems to follow. Makes me want to go back to my Season 1, all in Hurley's head theory but I won't. Though there is something to it. The idea of the numbers going around like that is pretty crazy.

Posted by: welshbt | February 12, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Jin knows that Charlotte speaks Korean because he and Sun realize this in Season 4 when Sun takes Daniel and Charlotte to the medical station to get supplies for Jack's appendectomy. Sun and Jin are talking in Korean about whether Charlotte realizes that Daniel likes her and Charlotte blushes and smiles a little. That is how they figure out that she speaks Korean. Later, Jin confronts her and tells her in Korean to make sure that Sun and their baby get off the island. So, when Jin is reunited with the group and has a hard time understanding Sawyer's explanation for what is happening with the time-shifts, he pleads with Charlotte the translate for him. But Sawyer and the gang assume he means Miles. They did not know that Charlotte could speak Korean either.

Posted by: apfromal | February 12, 2009 1:12 PM | Report abuse

If that is Hurley's voice reading the numbers, is it possible that at some point Hurley traveled back in time and recorded himself reading winning lottery numbers in an attempt to get rich quick? I'm not sure what the implications are there in terms of why or when(?) he would think that winning the lottery would be a good thing...

...but it would explain his horrible luck after wining. If he wasn't supposed to win the lottery in the first place, the universe might self-correct by destroying anything he gained through his winnings (comet hits his restaurant, mom's house burns down, etc.)...whoa...

The time travel also explains how the Losties all ended up in the island. If Ben can freely travel through time (and given what we know about his ability to manipulate people and events), it seems likely he could have rounded up the Losties he needed once before (on Oceanic flight 815 which he crashed on the island)--then they got away--and now he has to get them back again. The question is what is the connection between the Oceanic 6, and why does Ben/Jacob/the island need them in the first place? Are they all originally island babies?

Posted by: Plix | February 12, 2009 1:18 PM | Report abuse

RE: If that is Hurley's voice reading the numbers, is it possible that at some point Hurley traveled back in time and recorded himself reading winning lottery...Posted by: Plix | February 12, 2009 1:18 PM

Maybe it would be more accurate to say "at some future point Hurley travels back in time and records the number transmission.

Posted by: Burnie | February 12, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

I think Doc Jensen's theory about how Rousseau hadn't yet encountered Jin and thus couldn't recognize him when she's older is a bit flawed. If we remember The Constant, though Faraday seems not to remember Des initially, he did have written in his notebook that Desmond is his constant-a signal that their interaction previously did happen.
The past doesn't change. Everything that we are seeing now has already happened. That's sort of the point. Rousseau would not have crashed if Ben hadn't moved the island. Eko's brother wouldn't have crashed if Ben hadn't moved the island. I for one certainly don't remember Jin and Rousseau interacting, so I won't accept this "didn't happen before theory."

Posted by: peteyamama | February 12, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse

In addition to my previous point about this Doc Jensen theory being flawed is evidence from Charlotte. She "suddenly" remembers as she's dying that Daniel is the crazy man who told her not to come to the island. We may presumably see this in the future, given that we've already seen Faraday walking amongst Dharma folk, but it has clearly already happened.

Posted by: peteyamama | February 12, 2009 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Hmmm, a thought. If the last flash moved the island to a time before the well was built, they could be back in the 1800s, and the island just appeared under the Black Rock. Not too many episodes left in Lost to show that happening before it all ends next year. Now who will be on the Black Rock? Hmmmm, Widmore and Ellie?

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

The purpose of the transmission of the numbers may be so that someone always knows what numbers need to be entered into the computer so the hatch doesn't explode.

Posted by: skitch00 | February 12, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Is it possible that Christian Shephard/Jacob "caused" or somehow created the crash of Oceanic 815 so that he/his body could return to the island?

Posted by: MDfan1 | February 12, 2009 2:13 PM | Report abuse

How come Daniel couldn't help Charlotte find her constant, like he did for Desmond?

Posted by: dclibrarian | February 12, 2009 2:13 PM | Report abuse

"Eko's brother wouldn't have crashed if Ben hadn't moved the island."

Well, this brings up an old question. How did Eko's brother's plane travel halfway around the earth? Or was the island also physically moved to continental Africa, around Nigeria/Congo, where his plane was flying?

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 12, 2009 2:20 PM | Report abuse

Well, this brings up an old question. How did Eko's brother's plane travel halfway around the earth? Or was the island also physically moved to continental Africa, around Nigeria/Congo, where his plane was flying?

___________
My feeling is that the island must have moved physically.

Posted by: peteyamama | February 12, 2009 2:30 PM | Report abuse

Here is my take..
First (older one) Is the Island moving in time? or is it the people are moving in Time? There maybe or maynot be any significance to it, but in Daniels words (a couple episodes ago, which was also REPEATED in Previously on LOST).. "Either the Island is or WE ARE".. so the Island moved in time once when it disappeared, but people are moving many times..
Christian/Jacob: I think Christian is Christian and Jacob is something else. Christian came on the Island as a corpse only during the crash and since he cant walk around as a normal living all the time Jacob has chosen him to do this dirty work. Locke will also come back as corpse and become friends with Christian.
Locke/Ben.. Locke was maybe supposed to move the Island, but Ben did it as he wants to go out and avenge Alex's death.. or atleast threaten Widmore to do so.. or since he just didnt trust Locke can do what he was supposed to.
The Wheel: I think has started flipping out so quickly.. causing the frequent flashes quickly.. maybe thats the reason only 70hours.. or maybe the frequent flashes is because they are very near to the wheel. Also, like above mentioned, john pushed the wheel the anticlock when Ben pushed it clockwise.
Charolotte/Korean: Last week someone said jin meets baby charlotte and teaches her Korean.. that was interesting.. but doesnt seem so yet.. but Charlotte surely knows more than korean, anyone remember what language she understood for the news paper article in Tunisia when she was first introduced.. which said the locals are againt entering some high ground for polar bear remains or so?
Desmond: may still have to return to the Island.. It was never emphasized the O6 need to return.. it was always said everyone who left.. so am guess desmond too.. Also.. Desmond never promised Penny anything.. when she asked for the promise, he just replied with something like "why in gods name would i go back?"
The Well: How did Charlotte know the wheel is inside the well? what time is she from? before the Dharma? becoz Dharma build the orchid (am guessing on thw Well) with Daniel as construction worker..
Daniel/Charlotte: Someone said charlotte could be an (earlier version) of Daniel's daughter.. now.. since she made it clear a crazy guy and stuff maybe not.. but maybe half/step sister brother.. because.. when Daniel told Elli she reminded of someone, and Elli taunted him (since he'd just professed love for charlotte) as "arent you the romeo?" line.. Daniel replied.. "Far from it.. believe me" so it could be because Elli is Eloise Hawking aka Daniel's mum and so far from being romeo.. or since Daniel loves charlotte as sister (or daugther).. so far from being romeo..

Hmm.. overall good episode..

Posted by: thetruckguy | February 12, 2009 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Don't count me in the Ben is good club. I believe he deliberately left the donkey wheel off track. He wanted the island to skip in space/time in order to manipulate Elloise Hawkings. It is his only way of returning to the island. At the end of season 4 when Claire told Kate don't you dare bring him back, I wonder if she meant Ben instead of Aaron. Does the island really want Ben back

If it is Hurley who is reading the numbers, isn't Hurley then responsible for his own fate? If I remember correctly, we learn Hurley obtained the numbers from a guy who was stationed in the Pacific and listened to the Broadcast of the numbers.

Posted by: adam_peritz | February 12, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Faraday claims that the "rules" of time travel prevent them from affecting the future, but then he goes and does it three times. He has Des go back and meet him at Oxford, he tells Des to find his mother in the future, and he goes back in time in an attempt to save Charlotte's life by warning her not to return to the island. While time travel is cool as a literary device it is impossible to logically explain even if you suspend scientific disbelief. The Lost writers are really making a mess out of it as well.

Posted by: buffysummers | February 12, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

buffysummers:

You don't know that Faraday wasn't supposed to tell Des about his mother. I think the whole point is that everything that Daniel did was supposed to happen/has always happened. It's not that he's changing anything.

Posted by: peteyamama | February 12, 2009 3:52 PM | Report abuse

RE: Would the Losties be experiening these time flashes if John had turned the wheel instead of Ben? This might be irrelevant but I can't help but wonder...

Posted by: linda1413 | February 12, 2009 12:42 PM

Christian said as much to John. He said, 'I told YOU to move the island John'. Locke's response was something to the effect of Ben said he'd do it & I should stay and lead his people and Chrisian said, 'Now when did listening to Ben ever get you anywhere' (or something similar).

Posted by: jes11 | February 12, 2009 12:57 PM

I wonder, too--did Ben purposely push the wheel off center to cause the time slippage so that he would be required to return to the island without dying & thus perhaps retain his control? Ben always has a plan.

Posted by: Burnie | February 12, 2009 1:10 PM

jes - Christian saying that is EXACTLY what made me wonder. Guess my thought wasn't so irrelevant. LOL :)

Burnie - You reminded me of a theory I have regarding Widmore: I think he turned the wheel before and that is why he is trying to find the island. Knowing he was an Other has helped maintain my theory. I think he coveted the power of the island. Still working out the kinks so please forgive me if I confuse.

Posted by: linda1413 | February 12, 2009 3:54 PM | Report abuse

both Locke and Ben turned the wheel the same way, just Ben pushed and Locke pulled

I don't think Daniel and Charlotte are related, of course, I didn't think Ms. Hawking was Daniel's mother, either, so maybe I'm naive.

I'm SO shocked Sun agreed to go back to the island with Ben. one explanation from him and she overturns the hate she's been feeling for him for the last 3 years? I don't think so ...

I foresee them being able to get Kate (with Aaron), Sayid, and Hurley to join them going back to the island, though. if only they can make it happen in the small window of time they have open. Window, ha ha ...

Posted by: flutterbyjen | February 12, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

I have the beginnings of a theory with Ben & Locke.
Ben: killed his father.
Locke: too chicken to kill his father, but got him killed anyway.
Ben: turned the wheel.
Locke: didn't/wouldn't/couldn't turn the wheel, but it got turned anyway.
Ben: bringing the O6 back.
Locke: died, but the O6 is being brought back anway.

Locke is like an ineffective Ben. I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

Posted by: blahblah6b | February 12, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

1) I still can’t decide if Ben is “good” or “bad.”

2) The thing that confuses me most in “This Place is Death” is after Locke falls to the bottom of the well, Christian Shepherd appears and reprimands Locke (albeit kindly) b/c in Jacob’s cabin Locke was told to turn the donkey wheel, but Locke let Ben do it instead. It also appears Locke is the one tasked w/ returning the Oceanic Six to the island, but, again, it is Ben who is actually doing that work this season. Why would Locke again allow Ben to carry out a mission assigned to Locke, especially after Christian Shepherd made it clear to Locke that when Locke is given a task, Locke should do the task and not Ben. Is it possible Ben killed Locke after Locke returns to the U.S. from the island so Ben can return the Oceanic Six to the island for Ben’s purposes and not necessarily for Jacob’s purposes? Any opinions on this topic from anyone?

3) Like a68comeback in a 12:34 p.m. post, I’m curious about biblical allusions. For example, in the name “Christian Shepherd” it’s easy to see fairly direct ties to Christ / Christian / and [the Good] Shepherd. Further, Christian Shepherd arrived on the island in a coffin, the same way John Locke presumably will be returned to the island by Ben & the O6. Also in the bottom of the well, Christian Shepherd confirms what Richard Alpert previously told Locke: Locke must “sacrifice” his life so other people can live (a la the Easter story). Is Christian a forerunner who, like Locke, had to be returned to the island (and Jack was a pawn in this act)? Is that why Christian appears to be resurrected on the island and allowed into the house of Jacob? (By the way, the name on the van Ben currently is driving in L.A. is “Canton-Rainier,” an anagram for “reincarnation.”) Locke has father/son issues; Jack & Christian have father/son issues. (And, to cloud the point further, Ben has father/son issues.) And then you have the God/Jesus father-son thing. Anyone out there who can take this idea any further?

Posted by: MrMerkin | February 12, 2009 4:31 PM | Report abuse

The father-son thing is everywhere! Name a character on the show and it seems like we have been introduced to at least one of their parents, even if only in flashback. I kind of like the idea that many of these people where Dharma babies who got off the island and have been cosmically drawn back.

So help me remember... a few episodes ago, when we saw Dr. Candle/Halliwax wake up and feed a baby (Jin or Miles), wasn't that the same episode when the magic teleporter was being built in the Orchid Station? And wasn't Daniel Faraday one of the workmen building that station? So either he doesn't age (like Richard) or else at some point he time-travels to Dharma-era island time and steals a Dharma jumpsuit so he can fit in... and for some unknown agenda. The name on the jumpsuit wasn't his, right? It must have been at that point in time that he sees the young Charlotte and warns her?

Best scene last night: When Jin finds Sawyer and they hug it out. I had just said out loud, "Jin you'd better find Sawyer soon."

Still getting chills from: Hurley's voice saying the numbers on the recording that Rousseau records over 16 years ago!

Posted by: a68comeback | February 12, 2009 5:07 PM | Report abuse

Could the Smoke Monster be a manifestation of Jacob? Maybe the smoke monster "works" for Jacob similarly to the way that Christian Shepard does.

Posted by: Jeanne923 | February 12, 2009 5:20 PM | Report abuse

I have to say I thought Locke jamming his femur back into his thigh had me cringing more than the French Forearm.

I was also trying to back-calculate how much time had to pass after the flash when Jin found the arm in some state of decay but not just skeletal. I was wondering if it was rotting or if it had dried out.

Posted by: HardyW | February 12, 2009 5:26 PM | Report abuse

ok so everyone is assuming that Rousseau's crew were indeed infected with "the sickness" because we finally saw the final fall out where she shoots them all. But maybe SHE was really the one that became "sick" and she was going crazy paranoid and robert was going to kill her because he realized she had just killed everyone else.

What if Ben was right after all and he really did steal Alex from "a crazy woman" and the scene last night was just to throw us off.... If she was the one that was really crazy that could also clear up any of the questions on why she would not have recognized Jin later on

Posted by: Britt046 | February 12, 2009 5:55 PM | Report abuse

To HardyW:
Between the bone protruding from Locke’s leg to the arm popping off the Frenchie, I agree this episode is the most extreme for graphic depictions. As for how much time intervened between the time the Smoke Monster “disarmed” the Frenchie and a time flash threw the next scene into the future, I’m guessing the time jump could have been as brief as a few days. Remember these folks are on a TROPICAL island with high heat and humidity. Decomposition would occur very quickly. As you note, “the arm [is] in some state of decay but not just skeletal,” suggesting perhaps the shortest time shift out of the myriad of time shifts this season. You point also leads me to a question. Why is it that some folks like Rose can seemingly be cured of cancer on the island and Locke can walk again and survive a serious gut shot wound from Ben and Christian Shepherd apparently can rise from the dead, yet others die just as in “the real world”?

Posted by: MrMerkin | February 12, 2009 6:36 PM | Report abuse

Yemi's plane can get to the island because he flies from Nigeria NORTH. What's one of the countries north of Nigeria? TUNISIA.

Somehow the wormhole/rift/magicschoolbus opened in the air over Tunisia as the plane flew over and BAM they're over the island. Problem is, the EMP from spacetime travel knocks out the plane's engines (a la the hatch and Flight 815) and boom. You've got island Yemi with real cocaine transporting action.

What I want to know is...the Hatch's EMP blasts, they made the same sound as the time travel flash does no? Was the island traveling through time and happened across Oceanic's flight path? Does that mean that the Losties were in a different time than they thought they were?

Boggles the mind. Either way, the Hatch EMP needs more explanation.

Posted by: NattyDelite | February 12, 2009 6:41 PM | Report abuse

Great series of posts today people. Clearly a great show last night. A couple things: I like that theory that the Island Losties may now be in the time of the Black Rock because the well into which Locke fell was not in existance/closed up after the last flash that we saw. This may be the move which brought the Black Rock to the island. Of course, it could simply be to a jump into the past before the Dharma folks started building the orchid station and digging out the well.

I agree that the requirement is to bring back those who left the island. That doesn't have to mean just the Oceanic 6. But if it means Desmond has to go back then it would also have to mean that the pilot would have to go back as well. He, too, "left" the island.

Try this theory out: Christian Shepherd is going to be a crew member (Captain? ship's docter?) of the Black Rock. For some reason he too ends up moving the wheel which results in him being ejected from the island. He then spends the rest of his natural life trying to get back to the island. Along the way he "fathers" Jack and Claire which then leads to their fate being tied to the island as well. He only gets back to the island after he finally dies. I don't think he is going to be revealed as Jacob.

I'm with those who believe that Rousseau doesn't remember Jin in 2004 after we know she did meet him in 1988 simply because it was 16 years later and she has gone severely off her rocker. You would too if a smoke monster led to the killing of your husband, killed or lead to the killing of your associates, your baby was stolen days after its birth, and you've lived alone in a jungle with whispering voices around for 16 years : - )

Simply a great show last night.

Posted by: dojemc | February 12, 2009 7:18 PM | Report abuse

Two quick points:

Peteyama, I think you're wrong about the idea that time has always been. The clearest argument against your theory is the way Desmond suddenly wakes up with a fresh yet years-old memory, which occurs directly (in show time) after Faraday has implanted it in his mind. We have also seen Desmond replay the same scene twice -- once he bought the ring and the next time he didn't. I think that this also explains why Rousseau didn't recognize Jin in earlier seasons. She's not that crazy -- it's that Jin has not yet met her in "show time." On some level, all of the characters are always simultaneously at the same point in show time, and it really helps to view the time travel through that lens.

The Lost universe is self-correcting, however. Desmond could save Charlie's life over and over, but the universe was going to keep trying to restore its balance. So although this theory of time travel is flawed, it is workable.

There is no reason I can see to believe that present-day Richard remembered meeting Locke in 1954 at the time he gave him the compass. He just sent an object back in time which had significance or usefulness to both his newer and older self.

Secondly, if you want to understand the smoke monster, go back to the episode where Mr. Eko died. He was speaking to the apparition of his long-lost brother, who said "I am not your brother" and killed Mr. Eko. Mr. Eko's brother was the smoke monster.

In a very early episode, you saw the smoke monster taking actual snapshots of a character's experiences, so presumably it can somehow absorb your appearance and personality.

Finally, to those of you who seek insight: watch Claire's season 1 episode with the psychic and listen to what he tells her. Watch the episode where Claire dreams of Locke with one black and one white eye, saying "you gave him away -- now everyone pays the price." Which came true when Claire walked away from Aaron last season. Finally, watch Charlie's season 2 episode where he has the nightmares about saving the baby. Ultimately, the key to this show is Aaron, and don't you forget it...

Posted by: jerkhoff | February 12, 2009 7:56 PM | Report abuse

When Jin stepped on the beach, right next to the music box with the dancing figure, did anyone else immediately think of the closing animation for Heel & Toe productions? I wish I could find a link - its shown at the end of House, a shoe steps on dancing ballerina figurine.

Posted by: Maiz47 | February 12, 2009 8:10 PM | Report abuse

RE: beisbol- Arrested Development

When I heard Sun say 'annyong', my mind was expecting Buster to tel her to shut up.

Posted by: nier | February 12, 2009 9:06 PM | Report abuse

doesn't it seem odd that we're led to believe that there are some dire consequences connected to bringing the oceanic 6 back to the island only to find out in this episode that:

1) jin intentionally wants to make it difficult to bring sun back and locke complies

2) we see the disintegration of any sort of collective effort to go back

3)we see that ben's actions can't be trusted (like they ever were), and he's the one getting the oceanic 6 together

4) ms. hawking says something like, "well, this will have to do" when ben doesn't produce all of the oceanic 6

this goes back to the central axis of the show: man of science vs. man of faith. either there is some sort of transcendent connection between the island and these people, or there are powerful people maneuvering and manipulating them to get a product (the power?) they want. i'm sure the resolution will be ambiguous and somewhere between these, but i'm not sure the oceanic 6 are as central as we think they are.

we went through the looking glass. i'm betting there will be a confrontation on the island between jack and locke where they have switched positions on this issue. just sayin'.

Posted by: plathman | February 12, 2009 11:38 PM | Report abuse

Jen Chaney: Well, Maryland, I have to quote from the astute observations of producer Paul on this one. We were discussing this earlier today via IM -- the only way to have insightful debates -- and Paul pointed out that in the "Lost" universe, things course correct. As Ms. Hawking mentioned back when she met Desmond in season three, the universe will right itself to arrange for the preferred outcome.

So if Jin wasn't there to save Rousseau, someone or something else would have.

The universe self corrected when Rousseau and Alex were murdered NOT someone or somthing else would save them. You have the understand the time-travel which it looks like many people don't. People shouldn't be so confused about Charlotte and Daniel - it make perfect sense. I don't get the confusion.

Posted by: KPaige1 | February 12, 2009 11:58 PM | Report abuse

Hello

When Christian says to Locke at the end

"Say hello to my son"

could he instead be saying

"Say hello to my Sun"?

Might there be a connection between Jack's and Sun's family in the past? It seems that Locke did not keep his promise to Jin. I think that it was implied that Locke met Sun in the present out of the Island but he did not give the ring to Sun. So Locke must have been following Christian's instructions to get everyone back, and indeed went to say "hello to Sun", and not waited for Sun to get in contact with him.

for33

Posted by: for33 | February 13, 2009 7:52 AM | Report abuse

KPaige1,
Right, the universe self corrects. But as Desmond showed by saving Charlie, he could prevent Charlie's death indefinitely if he continued to work at it, but the universe would continue to try to kill Charlie, and Desmond could not stop it.

This made me think that was the purpose of the island, to continue to correct something that would destroy the world. For example, lets say Dharma, or something to do with the island, prevented the 1962 Cuban missle crisis from growing into a full nuclear war, which could have destroyed civilization and poisoned the earth. Then, those who saved the world find out the universe tries to self correct. They must now continually work to save the world from destruction, which is why pushing the button was described as needing to be done to save the world. That, and all the people around the world involved with the island (Ms. Hawkings and all the friends Ben has in the real world) work to prevent the universe from correcting itself by working to prevent war, killing the future leaders of war for example. This would be why time travel is so important, getting the information on what destroys the world back into the past where someone can change that future.

This was an early theory of mine that I'm holding in reserve. It still might be part of what is going on, but considering that Richard does not age, Jacob is spooky and smokey is, well, smokey, I'm now leaning toward ancient gods being involved. Right now I got smokey pegged for the god of the underworld. I think the temple will be the key. And I keep in mind the religious ritual lead by Hawking(?) where Juliet was branded for helping the Losties. That ritual seemed very much like something from ancient Greece, as does the four toed statue. But hey, theories are a dime a dozen in Lost world.

Posted by: bevjims1 | February 13, 2009 9:28 AM | Report abuse

John was reincarnated into Ben's body. It is actually Locke who is trying to get everybody back to the island not Ben.

And I suppose Ben Linus must be dead.

Posted by: papakia | February 13, 2009 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Some people are wondering whether the island is moving through time or the Losties. I think this is pretty obvious because Mrs. Hawking is using that pendulum and map to calculate where exactly the island will be at the end of the time period she gave Ben. Also, it would account for whoever is coming to the island (or back to) would need to find a new bearing to get there.

All of this talk about Hurley reading the numbers doesn't make sense to me. He hates those numbers and doesn't want anything to do with them. So why would be decide that he is going to read them on a transmission. I didn't think the voice really sounded like him, but would be interested in finding out who.

We didn't know how far back in time we were when they got to the well. It seemed that when Sawyer freaked out after the next time jump, the rope he was holding seemed more aged. Like perhaps when the Orchid was built, there was no need for the well to be there anymore. (Although, perhaps because whatever you are touching shifts with you, I guess that would explain the rope as well...)

I TOTALLY am on the same thought as Britt046 @ 5:55pm. To me, Rousseau looked a little crazy. What if she was the one that actually was and the others knew that? She was always a little wacko to me anyway. :-)

I would like to give a shout out to this Sawyer that we are seeing as well. I teared up a little bit when he ran up to Jin and gave him a HUGE hug. I like this Sawyer.

Posted by: Ohyouknow | February 13, 2009 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Liz and Jen, I'm surprised there was no comment about Charlotte's reference to Geromino Jackson, since the band is a link to prior seasons.

Also, I told you last year Jin was alive! However, what if he is only alive until time is reset to the "present," which is last season's finale? Is it possible that he and Sun would still be separated by his death if the O6 come back at the time of the first flash, which could coincide with Jin's death from the blast?

Posted by: GJreference | February 13, 2009 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone else feel at this point that everyone integral is somehow genetically related? That was tossed around a bit after season 1 but now I am thinking it more than ever. With the time travel ability its plausible. If not genetically - then definitely connected in some way from the past.

Posted by: tcurnow | February 14, 2009 8:51 PM | Report abuse

Not to beat a dead horse, but In Tibetan Buddhism, they teach that everyone and everything is related, connected in some way - as an obvious process of nature (the tree comes from the seed etc) or as a process of eons of reincarnation, during which we all cross paths many times in different ways, different kinds of relationships.

Usually we don't remember, but you know that strong reaction you have to some people (positive or negative)? Or the deja-vu thing? That's from past encounters, or current connections we may not know about.

In this show, there is a lot of criss-crossing of people through different times and places, and these connections are coming to light.

I'm not saying Tibetan Buddhism is the key to the whole story, I'm just saying.

Meanwhile, can someone give me a summary of the connections between Jacob, Christian Shepherd, Richard Albert and Locke? They are central to the mystery, but I can't remember the relationships among them. Plus, have we ever even met Jacob?

Favorite line: Miles: "NOW what-? "


Posted by: camis | February 14, 2009 9:27 PM | Report abuse

Cami:

The best way to review the “relationships” w/ Jacob, Christian, Alpert, & Locke is to read about each character on LostPedia. My hat is definitely off to the people who compile that website! What an incredible resource.

As for my non-expert answer, first, what do you mean by relationships? If you mean family/biological relationships, I don’t know of any – at least as the most recent episode(!).

If you mean by “relationships” encounters, I know of few.

We know Christian was sitting in the chair in Jacob’s cabin when Locke went there for advice last season; however, there is no conclusive evidence Christian IS Jacob. Also, it does not appear Alpert is Jacob b/c in the “Jughead” episode Locke greeted Alpert by Locke saying he was sent by Jacob. If Alpert were Jacob, Locke would have said something like, “I’m here b/c you (Jacob/Alpert) told me to come.”

The only relations I’m aware of between Locke and Alpert are best portrayed in “Jughead.” Locke met Alpert in 1954 and showed Alpert the compass Alpert had given Locke circa 2004. Locke said he would be born in 1956 and Alpert could check it out. We know Alpert then visited a childhood Locke circa 1960 and laid out a number of objects, including the compass. Whatever the test, Locke presumably “failed” it.

Locke does not seem to know who Christian really is, otherwise when Christian told Locke to “say hello to my son [Jack],” Locke would not have had to desperately ask Christian who his son is.

The only common denominator of a connection I know is Locke. He has “heard” Jacob, he has seen Christian in Jacob’s cabin and at the bottom of the well, and he has talked several times w/ Alpert. We also know Christian supposedly spoke for Jacob to Locke in Jacob’s cabin.

The only other connection I can think of is Christian was brought to the island in a box (coffin) when Oceanic Flight 815 crashed. Christian appears to have been reincarnated or resurrected on the island. Ben talked w/ Locke about a “magic box” in “The Man from Tallahassee” and it appears so far this season that Locke will be returned to the island in a box (coffin). Will Locke be reincarnated/resurrected when returned to the island? Perhaps the van Ben currently is driving in L.A. is a clue. The words painted on the side of the van are Canton-Ranier, an anagram for reincarnation.

Posted by: MrMerkin | February 15, 2009 9:28 AM | Report abuse

MrMerkin -

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Your answer clarified many things for me, and I will check out LostPedia. I missed the first couple seasons of the show (where was I?), and you pulled lots of the pieces together for me. Yes, Locke sure does get around.

I have become increasingly fascinated by Alpert - he seems a little hypnotized, like so many of them, but he seems kind. The way the show works, that probably means he'll turn out to be totally evil... but we'll see.

Thanks again. And by the way, I've really enjoyed all your posts.

Camis

Posted by: camis | February 15, 2009 2:23 PM | Report abuse

I think the reason Charlotte is (was) fluent in Korean is because she used to work for Sun's father, Mr. Pak. I'd even venture a gues that he was the one paying for her trip to the island. I am pretty sure Mr. Pak had been to the island himself, maybe even met and got acquainted with Mr. Whidmore there, circa 1950-s. Plausible theory?

Posted by: alina_estis | February 18, 2009 11:38 AM | Report abuse

Alina, You could be right but I suspect it may be that she learned it from Marvin Candler (Miles father?) when she was living on the island. Anyway, I suspect we haven't seen the last of Charlotte much as we haven't seen the last of a lot of people we thought had died : - ) Maybe we'll have some answers shortly. Enjoy tonight's show all.

Posted by: dojemc | February 18, 2009 6:13 PM | Report abuse

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I think everyone is connected some how. Jack went to Australia to get his father’s body. Sawyer went to Australia to kill the man who killed his mother or father or something like that. Please excuse my lack of details… Did Sawyer actually kill Christian? Is Christian the person both Jack and Sawyer went to find???

Also, didn’t Jack mention early on something about Christian owning shares or something in a box factory somewhere? Would that be the same box factory that Christian has stock in or owns. That would indirectly connect Locke to Christian.

Kate was hiding in Australia at a farm. Was this near or the same farm that Rose, the dentist’s wife, went to see for an attempt at healing her cancer? I think that might be a stretch but who really knows.

Posted by: iluv2hash | February 19, 2009 9:22 AM | Report abuse

BTW, what about all the people that have left the island, the others, Michael, O6 and the fact that they cannot seem to kill themselves. Remember when Michael (or was it Said?) tried to kill himself and the "Other" guy, the big grey haired guy, asked him what happened, did the gun jam, and so on... Jack tired to kill himself on the bridge and it didn't work... Now you all noticed that the van ben is driving spells out reincarnation, Christian, whom we know died, keeps popping up... I don't know what all of this means yet but I bet some of you have theories.
I'm a willing audience. :-)

Posted by: iluv2hash | February 19, 2009 9:30 AM | Report abuse

iluv2hash:

“Connected” is a loaded word. With each new episode it does appear that characters are “connected,” but to what degree? Is it a loose connection like the one that has all of us within six degrees of Kevin Bacon? Or, is there some religious/metaphysical higher power that connects these “Lost” folks in a tighter way? Certainly last night’s episode with Mrs. Hawking located in a church and Ben’s Sunday School lesson on the apostle Thomas hints at a religious/metaphysical connection. But, as always, Lindeloff and Cuse are cagey. Later in the same episode they raise questions about “fate” when Jack and Kate are talking on the plane. Jack suggests its “crazy” that all of the O6 (except Aaron) are together on the same flight. “How did they end up here?” asks Jack (a man of science who, in this episode, may be becoming a man of faith). Kate replies matter-of-factly, “They all bought a ticket.” Jack pushes further. “You don’t think that it means something somehow that we’re all back together?” Kate replies, “We’re on the same plane, Jack. It doesn’t make us together.” So, are there “connections” on “Lost”? Absolutely. To what degree and to what “power/force” do we attribute that connectivity? That’s what Lindeloff and Cuse have yet to reveal.

Your second point about reincarnation and that some of the O6 are unsuccessful in trying to kill themselves is related to that religious/metaphysical power issue – a question I’m not smart enough to figure out yet. And maybe “Lost” will never give us an answer to that question, just as life doesn’t seem to be able to answer the question empirically. Maybe “Lost,” like life, will leave us to ponder if God (or some higher power) created Man or if Man created God (in an attempt to explain a random, desultory world (i.e., draw connections)).

Posted by: MrMerkin | February 19, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

Something that has driven me nuts ever since the "freighter" appeared is, that is not a "freighter". It's a large oil supply boat like the ones used in the Gulf of Mexico to take crews and supplies out to the oil rigs.

Other than that, the greatest mystery to me is, will it be Kate and Jack or Kate and Sawyer? And will poor Hurley ever find peace?

Posted by: Katy5 | February 19, 2009 3:06 PM | Report abuse

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