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Posted at 10:30 AM ET, 03/ 5/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analyses: 'LaFleur'

By Liz Kelly

Sawyer (Josh Holloway) and Juliet (Elizabeth Mitchell) settle into Dharma life. (ABC)
Lost

In which Jen Chaney and I rejoice in the return to a character-driven plot line and almost get through an entire analysis without debating the intentions of one Benjamin Linus. And don't forget to join us at 3 p.m. ET to continue the conversation in The "Lost" Hour chat.

Liz: As of tonight's show we are officially halfway through the penultimate season of the best show on TV (No, not "Rock of Love Bus") and finally, after dying along with John Locke last week, we have been returned to the island, reborn into a character-driven show.

There were definitely a few points of interest for "Lost" mythologists tonight -- not the least of which is the backside of that big honking statue we saw at the beginning of the hour -- but I am going to bet right now that this analysis and -- quite possibly this afternoon's chat -- will have us all taking sides. Forget Jater vs. Skater. We're talking Kawyer vs. Jawyer (pronounced Joi-yer).

And, you'll be happy to learn that I have no reason to mention "Focault's Pendulum" tonight, breaking what was turning into a weekly habit. (This mention doesn't count).

Jen: Question: Should it really be Sate vs. Suliet? I don't know, neither version has the best ring. The point is: Our love square is back! A sign that history repeats itself, again, and again, and again...

We'll get back to that later. But for starters, it would appear that, based on this episode, Faraday's time travel theories are definitely wrong. The past can be changed. Or are we to believe that Amy -- that's Michelle from "24" to you -- would have lived and her husband would have somehow died, even if Sawyer and Juliet hadn't busted out their guns?

Much more after the jump...

Liz: Yes, Daniel is an unreliable guide to the rules of time travel as it relates to our Losties, though he really knows a lot about the subject as it pertains to lab rats. So anything goes. But two more things come to mind about the beginning of the show and Amy's brush with the hostiles.

First, the abduction scene really reminded me of the season 2 episode when Sawyer staged a fake abduction of Sun. She, too, was hooded and I can't help but think that Sawyer had a little flash of deja vu himself -- and that flash may have motivated him to do right by Amy here.

Second, Sawyer's beard was growing and shrinking between takes in tonight's show. Look:


Sawyer's beard (l to r): At the well, just before rescuing Amy and making the case to Horace. (Screengrabs courtesty Get Lost Podcast)

When we first return to Sawyer and co. at the site of the former well his beard looked freakishly full and dark -- in fact, I made a snarky comment to Mr. Liz comparing the beard to one of those magnetic metal shavings face toys. Then moments later in the timeline -- when they come across a disoriented Daniel in the jungle -- Sawyer's beard is way lighter and shorter. Then, when they get to Amy -- again just moments later -- his beard is fuller again, though not quite as bushy as it was to begin with. It only returns to full bushiness that evening when Sawyer -- as Jim LaFleur -- is being questioned by Horace Goodspeed.

This is a huge mystery and one that the folks responsible for continuity better be prepared to defend.

Jen: Yeah, I definitely noticed the dark fullness during the well scene. It was sort of hard not to. I have no explanation for it whatsoever. But since we're discussing the well, we should mention that an old friend showed up in that scene, someone who has been the subject of much discussion. I refer, of course, to the backside of what we assume later became... the four-toed statue.

Please insert weekly reference to Egypt and the fact that the island civilization is super, ultra-ancient here.

Liz: Happy to oblige. Old four-toe looked familiar to me -- or as familiar as the back of a stone colossus can. Have a look at Anubis, the Egyptian deity linked to mummification and the afterlife.

Jen: So what you're saying is ... this place is death.

Liz: Or, well, this place is afterlife.

Jen: Or, better yet, this place is the groovy '70s, baby! But before we move away from all this Egypt business, we should talk about the necklace Paul -- Amy's late husband -- was wearing.

Liz: Yes, the wooden ankh. Ankhs are the Egyptian symbol of eternal life. I know this because when I was in college I wore an Ankh necklace. Not because I had any particularly strong feelings about Egyptian deities and beliefs, but because it was the next progression after the skull ring and fishnets. Don't ask.

Jen: Interesting detail about that Ankh, from the Wiki page:

The precise origin of the symbol remains a mystery to Egyptologists, and no single hypothesis has been widely accepted. One of the earliest suggestions is that of Thomas Inman, first published in 1869.

You may recall the name Inman. As in Kelvin Inman, the guy who once shared the hatch with Desmond.

Liz: Indeed I do. And what was Inman's suggestion?

Jen: This:

[It] is by Egyptologists called the symbol of life It is also called the 'handled cross,' or crux ansata. It represents the male triad and the female unit, under a decent form. There are few symbols more commonly met with in Egyptian art than this. In some remarkable sculptures, where the sun's rays are represented as terminating in hands, the offerings which these bring are many a crux ansata, emblematic of the truth that a fruitful union is a gift from the deity.

Liz: So we go from death to fertility, a known obsession of the Others if not the Dharma crew. And I can't think about representations of male and female unions without thinking of the Adam and Eve skeletons.


Dr. Juliet (Elizabeth Mitchell) takes over when Amy (Reiko Aylesworth) goes into labor. (ABC)

Jen: Speaking of fertility, let's talk about Amy's delivery. As her original doctor said, she was not supposed to give birth on the island. They were going to put her on a submarine (as apparently was customary), take her off-island and have her deliver there, presumably to avoid Amy's death, since mothers tend to not survive after giving birth on the island. But we now know that a child was conceived and born on the island, and the mother lived. At least, right after the birth she did. And I know Reiko Aylesworth is in at least three more episodes, so presumably this means that the island curse didn't work, at least in this case.

Liz: Any thoughts on that child's identity? I was surprised that we didn't get a scene where Horace was introduced to baby [insert shocking name of character we would be totally blown away by finding out was born on island here]. It seems unusual that they'd have a child born on island -- something we've been conditioned to think impossible aside from Aaron's birth -- and not have that child be a significant part of the storyline.

Jen: Agreed. The question is: Who would it be? If the boy was born in 1977, he would have been 27-ish by the time of the plane crash.

Liz: That's too old for Karl.

Jen: I'm just going to say it's Boone. Since, you know, people expect that of me.

Liz: You wish!

Maybe we should talk about the significance of Sawyer's name, "LaFleur." I could have spent hours researching the name, but why when Doc Jensen has already done it?

Jen: Ah, so true. Sawyer said he "improvised" and came up with because it's "Creole." But let the kiddies know what Doc says.

Liz: Here's where Doc landed:

"LaFleur." Which is flower in French. Which reminds me of Ulysses, the James Joyce novel that Lost dropped into its mix o' hyperlink literary references two episodes ago. In the book, there's a pathetically poignant bit of business in which Everyman mock hero Leopold Bloom — painfully aware that his wife is having an affair with another man — tries to get into the infidelity game himself by trading correspondence with a would-be mistress using the pseudonym ''Henry Flower.'' We learn all this while the Irishman wanders around his island town, lost in a daze, deliberating whether to open his potential lover's latest letter and pondering his father's suicide."
The intersection of Lost, ''LaFleur,'' Flower, and Ulysses leads us to another suggestive possibility. Each chapter in Ulysses correlates to a chapter in Homer's The Odyssey. The aforementioned Bloom chapter is modeled after ''The Lotus-Eaters,'' in which voyaging Odysseus and his crew discover an island community of peaceful, blissed-out people hooked on lotus flowers. Many of Odysseus' men get addicted to the narcotic plant themselves and lose their desire to go back home. Odysseus must resort to drastic measures to force his comrades to wake up and get back on point.

I'm going to go with Doc on this one. The only other significant LaFleur I could find was a Canadian hockey player and I don't see hockey coming to the island anytime soon.

Jen: Hey, you never know. I have heard Alexander Ovechkin may make a cameo appearance later this season.

Liz: Not only did Sawyer take on a false name, he concocted a pretty solid story to explain their presence on the island, eh?

Jen: Well, he essentially stole Rousseau's story. Which fit in nicely with the idea that stories we previously knew and understood were being co-opted and twisted throughout the episode.

Which brings us to Suliet -- or Jawyer: We always thought Sawyer and Kate might wind up together, and now it seems Juliet -- the one who was willing to stay on the island with him, which is worth noting -- may be his true love.

Liz: Sawyer, of course, went out of his way to say he was totally over Kate -- which kind of sounded like he was convincing himself, not Horace. This was, of course, just before he Jeeped over to the north meadow for the Kate reunion. Still, it would be hard to see him jilting Juliet at this point.

If only last week's rumors about Evangeline Lilly looking for new work come next fall had turned out to be true, we'd have our answer.

Jen: They could be true, and she could just be doing spin control. But we have to take her at her word. I think Kate needs to stay in this thing until the end.

Here's a question: Did you notice Sawyer was wearing glasses in the '70s?

Liz: I did -- but we've seen him wear glasses before -- remember his taped together pair of reading lenses?

Jen: I do, but that's exactly my point. In season one, which took place in 2004 narrative-wise, Sawyer started having headaches, at which point he realized he needed reading glasses. But apparently, he realized he needed these glasses back in the 1970s. It's just another thing that again raises the time-travel narrative questions that our readers have mentioned. I also noticed that he took the glasses off the minute he saw Kate.

Liz: Yes, but Sawyer in the 1970s is actually post-2004 Sawyer, right? And of course he took them off -- we needed an unobstructed view of his baby blues.

Jen: I mean, the glasses may also have been a way to telegraph the notion that Sawyer had become a "different" person and when he saw Kate, the glasses came back off. But on the '70s-Sawyer-is-really-post-04-Sawyer tip, here's another question: Could Juliet really have left the island on that submarine in 1974 if she had wanted to?

I say no.

Liz: I agree. The minute she said she wanted to leave, I started thinking about the impossibility -- if for no other reason than she'd have been faced with encountering an elementary school-aged self if she'd made it back to the mainland. And that just can't happen. Can it?

Jen: Well, not as they have laid out the narrative. But actually, since time is progressing differently off the island, she might have been able to return to some approximation of the life she left behind. It wouldn't be the '70s off the island in that moment, right? See, this is the kind of junk that keeps me up late at night.

Liz: I think it would have, though -- since the record had stopped skipping, leaving our castaways, as Daniel put it, on a song they didn't want to listen to.

Jen: Oh, we need to talk about Daniel. How heartbreaking was our skinny little champ tonight?

Liz: He's a man who seems to have lost his center -- he failed in his attempt to save Charlotte's life and, heart-wrenchingly, she seems to have died only minutes before Locke turned the donkey wheel and stopped their ping-ponging through time. If she'd only made it a few more minutes, she might have survived. Now he's reduced to a blubbering shell of a man who keeps repeating "I won't tell her..." And a good decision, I say. It isn't nice to go around scaring little girls with gloomy prophecies. People might get the wrong idea.

Of course, we know he eventually pulls himself together enough to work for Marvin Candle.

Jen: When he saw lil' Charlotte in '74, waving -- that was the most poignant image of the episode, by far.

Liz: Yes. Though I have to make a confession: I was utterly underwhelmed by that moment. We all knew it was coming and, I dunno, it was just so predictable. They should've had little Charlotte be a brat -- have her ask Daniel some wildly inappropriate question that only kids ask, like, "Mister, why is your beard so greasy?"

Now that's poignance, my friend.

Jen: Yes, it was a bit predictable. I guess the moments that I find most compelling on this show are the missed connections, those times when the characters want something that is just out of their grasp. I felt the same way about Jack using his Golden Ticket over and over, just praying he would crash. There was something gorgeously tragic about that to me, and I feel the same way about Daniel seeing a very young Charlotte even though, as you said, I knew it was coming.

Liz: I get a lot out of those moments, too. I'm not completely immune to sap. But sometimes the absurdity of actual human interaction -- those moments when these characters remind us of ourselves by being totally irrational -- like Hurley downing the tub of Dharma mayo -- those are the moments for me.

So you mentioned "24's" Reiko Aylesworth above. There were a couple of other familiar faces in tonight's show. One was Patrick Fischler as Phil -- who folks may remember as ribald comedian Jimmy Barrett from "Mad Men." And looks like he'll be around for at least three more episodes.

Jen: Yes, I was thrilled to see him, as well as his partner in tracking Dharma crime, Kevin Rankin, who fans of "Friday Night Lights" will recognize as Herc. The "Lost" producers only pluck from the finest shows.

Liz: Agreed -- they have unerring casting instincts. If only the same could be said for the beard continuity department.

Jen: Beards aside, did you notice a pan across a hand playing chess at the beginning of one of tonight's scenes at the Dharma compound? We couldn't see who that hand belonged to, but I have to think it was Ben or maybe his dad?

Liz: We know he's around there somewhere, acting like the awkward sociopathic child that he was. Which brings up another point from Doc Jensen's piece:

Ben is actually a bad shepherd. Time and again, he has tried to lead Locke astray so that he could usurp his Island destiny. These efforts have always failed. Ben shot Locke in season 3. Fortunately, Locke wasn't killed. Ben tricked Locke into letting him turn the frozen donkey wheel in season 4. Fortunately, Locke got a second chance. Ben talked Locke out of killing himself -- because, I suspect, Locke was supposed to kill himself.

I have no additional commentary. Just adding it to the ever-growing record of our Ben debate.

Jen: Man, I thought we could get through one blog post -- just one -- without discussing this. And for the record, that was one of several theories in that piece.

Liz: Jen, I thought you could see into the future -- in which case you know that we will still be debating Ben Linus when our walkers bump into each other at the 2035 "Lost" convention.

Jen: Dude, I have already been to that convention via a flash. And you so don't have a walker. Also, and I don't want to upset Mr. Liz or anything, but you and Josh Holloway ... oh no, I've said too much...

Liz: Nice segue. So back to Sawyer and the island and the Dharmas and those hostiles. What do you make of the fragile "truce"?

Jen: Well, that word, truce. It made me think about Widmore and his comment to Locke that "a war was coming." Was that eventual breaking of the truce the war he was referring to, even though it happened, technically, in the past?

Liz: It certainly could be -- though, thinking this through -- we know that at some point Ben throws in his lot with the Others and kills off the Dharma members. Leaving... who... as the Others' opponents? Unless, of course, you mean that Widmore is sending Locke and co. back to the island retroactively to win a war that had already been lost -- or decided.

Jen: That's exactly what I mean, Doc Brown. He's going back ... to change the future. Or something. Unfortunately, Locke appears to have landed in the wrong time. He and Cesar and the rest of the gang don't seem to be in the 70s.

Liz: And here I thought we were going to get through this week without a "Back to the Future" ref.

Liz: Speaking of disjointed timelines -- we have a week off next week.

Jen: Hooray! But we'll still have a chat, right?

Liz: We sure will. This will be our moment to finally get ahead of the curve and beat LIndeCuse at their own sick game.

Jen: Let's not get carried away. It's their game, and we're just lucky they let us sit on the bench. So shall we reconvene at 3, at which point hundreds of people will bring up all kinds of important points we missed?

Liz: I'm counting on it. See you and your cockamamie ideas about Ben Linus there.

In two weeks (3/18) on "Lost": When some old friends drop in unannounced, Sawyer is forced to further perpetuate his lie in order to protect them

By Liz Kelly  | March 5, 2009; 10:30 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

>> Faraday's time travel theories are definitely wrong. The past can be changed. <<

The theories are sound. No reason to go all Minkowski and Regina on us.

If the past can be changed, then James, et al. are living in one time line (changed - 1974-77), while Locke, et al. are living in another time line (apparently post-2005), while the outside world might be living in a third time line. In short, three different universes.

If there is only one universe, the past cannot be changed and whatever James, et al. did in their present, they did in the past -- what happened, happened.

In order for the past to be changeable, there must be multiple universes, and each time there is a change in the past, a new universe with the new timeline is created. (And quantum theory does posit the existence of multiple universes, multiple realities.) Either that, or the entire previous universe (with its own timeline) is destroyed and replaced by the new one. If the past is changeable, then Lost has migrated from Slaughterhouse Five to Sliders.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 5, 2009 10:50 AM | Report abuse

Normally not a Sawyer fan at all, but loved his "eyeliner" line about Richard Alpert.

Posted by: susannajoy | March 5, 2009 10:51 AM | Report abuse

But that can't have been Charlotte! If she was in her mid to late 20s when she came to the island again in 2004, she had to have been born in the late 70s/early 80s. So she hasn't even been born yet when they're on the island in 1974.

Posted by: maedwa | March 5, 2009 10:58 AM | Report abuse

I do not understand why Daniel is wrong about time travel. Sawyer did not change the past. He was always there in 1974 to save Amy. What is happening in the now 1974 also happened in the then 1974.

As for the pregnancy, I think Amy was going to leave the island to have the baby because the DI does not have a resident ob-gyn. If the baby/momma killing curse was already present on the Island, then Amy wouldn't have made it past her second trimester (at least that was the time frame Juliet gave Sun). The mothers didn't die in childbirth, they died during pregnancy.

Posted by: L8yF8 | March 5, 2009 10:58 AM | Report abuse

I don't think Faraday is wrong at all. I don't think Sawyer and Juliet changed the past, I think they were *supposed* to save Amy, and it falls under the "whatever happened, happened" mantra. If they weren't supposed to save her, then I don't think the island would have allowed it, just as Michael couldn't kill himself, etc.

My big question at this point is when in the timeline are Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, and now the Oceanic three (soon to be five?). As in, when is Ben going to kill every single person in the Dharma initiative? Will this include Sawyer and Juliet or anyone else? I'm trying to remember, do they know what Ben did back then? Locke found out, but I'm not sure if the other Losties heard that story and know what may be taking place soon. Does anyone know when Ben did the dastardly deed? Was it in '74?

Posted by: Dr_Bob | March 5, 2009 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Loved the episode. About this "truce"...it appeared that the Others had already killed 2 Dharma people and were about to kill a 3rd before Sawyer and co. stumbled upon the scene. So why didn't Horace and/or Sawyer tell Richard that HIS people broke the truce first??

Posted by: vinyasa | March 5, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

>> Unless, of course, you mean that Widmore is sending Locke and co. back to the island retroactively to win a war that had already been lost -- or decided <<

This raises the whole question of WHY does Widmore want to return to the Island? After all, he appears to have a pretty successful life (wealth and power anyway) off the Island. It seems that the only thing he lacks is immortality, or does he?

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 5, 2009 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Great episode. One question. Where are Rose, Bernard and Vincent?

Posted by: qwerqwer1 | March 5, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

The most important thing I learned on Tralfamadore was that when a person dies he only appears to die. He is still very much alive in the past, so it is very silly for people to cry at his funeral. All moments, past, present and future, always have existed, always will exist. The Tralfamadorians can look at all the different moments just that way we can look at a stretch of the Rocky Mountains, for instance. They can see how permanent all the moments are, and they can look at any moment that interests them. It is just an illusion we have here on Earth that one moment follows another one, like beads on a string, and that once a moment is gone it is gone forever.
When a Tralfamadorian sees a corpse, all he thinks is that the dead person is in bad condition in the particular moment, but that the same person is just fine in plenty of other moments. Now, when I myself hear that somebody is dead, I simply shrug and say what the Tralfamadorians say about dead people, which is "So it goes."
--Billy Pilgrim

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 5, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Oh wait, I think Locke told Hurley what Ben did, although I still can't remember what year Ben killed everyone. Anyone else?

Posted by: Dr_Bob | March 5, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

My worlds would absolutely collide if Alex Ovechkin made a guest appearance on Lost.
Patchy's dad perhaps?

Posted by: stormblue | March 5, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Tralfamadorian speaker: We know how the world ends and it has nothing to do with Earth, except that it gets wiped out too.

Billy Pilgrim: Really? How does it end?

Tralfamadorian speaker: While we're experimenting with new fuels, a Tralfamadorian test pilot panics, presses the wrong button, and the whole universe disappears.

Billy Pilgrim: But you have to stop him. If you know this, can't you keep the pilot from pressing ...

Tralfamadorian speaker: He has always pressed it, and he always will. We have always let him, and we always will let him. The moment is structured that way.

******

Sawyer had always shot the hostiles, and he always will. The moment is structured that way.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 5, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Wasn't Horace married to Samantha Mathis when Ben was born? And Samantha was also Ben's teacher so maybe Ben Isn't born yet? He seems mid 30s though.

Posted by: L8yF8 | March 5, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Did everyone notice Juliet was wearing a wedding ring on her left hand when she and Sawyer embraced and said, "I love you"?? And what is marriage? Marriage is having your spouse's back even when everyone else might be against him/her. I love them together. The only possible way LOST can jump the shark (IMHO) is if Sawyer leaves Juliet for Kate. Kate who looks like a meth addict in rehab most of the time. Come on now Sawyer, be the man Jim LaFleur intends you to be...

Posted by: a68comeback | March 5, 2009 11:20 AM | Report abuse

I was mostly OK with the time travel timeline...until this episode. I'm not even really thinking about what year it is on and off the island, but the timeframe itself.

It has been my assumption that while the Oceanic 6 got home and lived three years off the island, the island people were only a few days later (a week or two tops) from when the freighter blew. This seemed to be verified when Locke left the island (again, not too long after the freighter blew) and Widmore told him that off-island three years had gone by.

But I don't understand if there are these two parallel time frames, why did the island people have to wait three years for the off-islanders to come back? Once they pass through whatever "wormhole" there is, shouldn't they be back in the island time frame? Aaaaahhhhhh!!!

Posted by: beisbol | March 5, 2009 11:20 AM | Report abuse

I think the problem Jen and Liz are having with the time travel is the problem of destiny versus free will.
Sawyer and co saved Amy in 1974 that means that their actions in 2004 were going to lead back to 1974. So why take action if time is already written. They will go back to 1974 because they were in 1974. They can't not because they were.
If that is the case and everything is written then why do we struggle? Fate is tough y'all.

Posted by: L8yF8 | March 5, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Loved the episode. About this "truce"...it appeared that the Others had already killed 2 Dharma people and were about to kill a 3rd before Sawyer and co. stumbled upon the scene. So why didn't Horace and/or Sawyer tell Richard that HIS people broke the truce first??

Posted by: vinyasa | March 5, 2009 11:02 AM

The Others had only killed the one guy - Paul. So yes, they did break the truce first. Then Sawyer shot the others and saved Amy. I believe Horace and Sawyer did convince Richard of this, which is why Richard agreed to leave as long as he could take Paul's body.

I believe Ben mentioned last season that Charlotte was born in '79 in England, so if they were in '74, Charlotte wouldn't have even been alive yet. Of course, we all know Ben's a pathological liar (sorry, Jen!) so who knows what's right? My guess is that Charlotte was the daughter of Horace and Olivia. Olivia left, taking Charlotte with her, leaving Horace to marry Amy, get drunk and blow up trees.

My guess about Amy's son is that it's Sawyer. We never saw his mother and she could've gotten off the island and gotten remarried to Mr. Ford.

Loved the view of the statue and the comment about Mr. Eyeliner. That kills me.

But other than that, I wasn't too pleased with the episode. It was all horribly predictable and cliche.

Has anyone noticed how they seem to "flash" to years ending in 4? 1954, 1974, 2004, I bet when Richard fixed up John's leg, it was 1994 (though I don't know the timeline of Yemi's plane crash). Are there any other 4's that are important? 1944 was the end of WW2, 1984 was the book, 64 was when my parents graduated from high school. :)

Posted by: eet7e | March 5, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

re: ooyah32 - time travel

You're taking too static or linear of a view on time travel. It is theoretically accepted that time travel is possible, especially when reaching the speed of light because we don't really know what happens at that instant other than the math completing breaking down.

As such, it is certainly possible, within the context of the show, to assume that while these planes of existence normally wouldn't merge (Sawyer seeing Kate on Island delivering Aaron, while Kate is actually living in Los Angeles) one can assume cross-over or interference of these strings of time. Hence the really large warning from Faraday about not interferring. Create a paradox while the island is unstable and shifting through time would be a dangerous thing. If everything is energy and energy cannot be destroyed than the past can be found again by navigating to the furthest reaches of time/space accelerating beyond the speed of light to come around and find yourself again.

Posted by: slashdot | March 5, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

"Loved the episode. About this "truce"...it appeared that the Others had already killed 2 Dharma people and were about to kill a 3rd before Sawyer and co. stumbled upon the scene. So why didn't Horace and/or Sawyer tell Richard that HIS people broke the truce first??"

Hazarding a guess here that part of the truce included the Dharma folks not venturing out past the pylons. If so, technically the Dharmans violated the truce first.

As to Amy's successful pregnancy, guessing that whatever causes pregnant women to die hasn't happened yet, but will occur sometime after the destruction of Dharma and possibly not until after Rousseau's group land on the island, since she also successfully gave birth.

Posted by: Gonzai | March 5, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Dr. Bob,

Ben could not have killed the Dharma people in 1974 because Sawyer, Juliet, et. al were in 1974 when they FIRST arrived at that time. It is now 1977 when Kate, Jack, and Hurley arrive and the Dharma people are stil around.
I think that is correct?

Posted by: Iowahoosier | March 5, 2009 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Dr_Bob you are right. Locke actually SHOWED the mass grave of the Dharma Initiative to Hurley and when Hurley asked what happened to them, Locke said, "He did" shrugging toward Ben. Did anyone else catch it last night when someone, maybe Juliet, said something about it being before Ben killed "most of them" -- meaning MOST of the Dharma people? Did I dream that?

Posted by: a68comeback | March 5, 2009 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Personally, I think Ben was doing something so that the women wouldn't survive child birth. After Juliette showed up, he kept doing that something to the women (poisoning with the "vitamin shots") so that Juliette would have to stay since her job was not finished...

Posted by: Osteph | March 5, 2009 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Maybe Ben's release of the poisonous gas during the purge caused the pregnancy problems and he was trying to fix it. After the air cleared, I would think there would still be particles of the poison in the water supply and earth, diluting enough to not be harmful to a healthy man or woman, but wreaking havoc on a pregnant woman and her fetus.

Posted by: eet7e | March 5, 2009 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Charlotte was already speaking Korean when we first see her right ? so, jin did not teach her.... i look forward to learning more about that in future episodes.

Posted by: tjkass | March 5, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

Also, Ben is definitely an adult when he orchestrates the mass murder of the D.I. So if he was a kid in 1974-1977, he simply has not killed them yet. Let's say Ben is 18 or 20 when he kills the D.I. people. He must do it in like 1984? If we're going by 4's maybe even it is 1994 when he kills them? That is plenty of time for our Losties to get away from 1977... having changed the course of history for Widmore?? Ggzzz.

Posted by: a68comeback | March 5, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

I seem to remember 1991 as being the year of the purge, though I may be completely wrong. I always thought Ben to be in his late 30s, early 40s, making him about 8-10 in 1977 and early 20s in 1991.

When did Ben arrive on the island? Was it in the early 80s? He may not even be there yet in 1977.

Posted by: Ellbeecee | March 5, 2009 11:42 AM | Report abuse

I don't think Widmore himself DOES want to return to the island; otherwise he would have been on that plane with the O6. He wanted to find it, and he has with Mrs. Hawkings help, but I think his goal is not to return but to alter or correct things.

Last night's episode revealed why Ben, Richard, and Widmore all are so keen to get the O6 to return: they already know that they SHOULD appear on the island in the 70s, and apparently will do... something.

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 11:42 AM | Report abuse

Ben committed genocide in 1992. Last season, cabin-building Horace tells Locke (in 2004, before the losties start time-jumping) that he's been dead for 12 years.

Posted by: emfzlx | March 5, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

Like Susannajoy, I loved the eyeliner line too. I thought it was a another nod to the Egyptian references.

Posted by: spasz | March 5, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

A late Abbadon question: when we first met him as Locke's orderly and later as a supposed Oceanic Airlines employee, he had an island accent. But in the recent episodes with Locke before he was killed, he definitely had an American accent. What's up with that?

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Regarding Amy's pregnancy: I agree with the comment that the gassing of Dharma may be behind the baby issues on the island. however, we're also assuming that Amy conceived on the island. At this point, Dharma has the sub and and can travel to the mainland, so conceivably (hahahahaha!) she and horace got busy off-island.

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 11:50 AM | Report abuse

A note about the truce and who broke it: we don't know what the terms of the truce are, so it's impossible to know who broke it. Possibly the Dharmas have agreed to stay within the pylons, but don't they only enclose New Otherton and not all the Dhara stations?

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 11:52 AM | Report abuse

"Great episode. One question. Where are Rose, Bernard and Vincent?"

qwerqwer1, I agree, great episode! And, I asked the same question to my coworker! She said she didn't care where they were... Expect for Vincent... I hope that they come back into the story and we get to see them again.

My coworker then asked me who I thought Amy's baby might be, and I don't have any idea! It can't be Sawyer, remember his dad killed his mom after Locke's dad conned her. Maybe it isn't anyone and they just die in the Purge?

Also, did I miss something? How do we know that it is 1974?

Posted by: aludholtz | March 5, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

If nothing else, for an episode that didn't have too much action in it, the pacing was insane. They packed so much in that it felt like a 2 hour ep, which is good since there's a break next week.

Juliete and Sawyer make for as good a couple as Sun and Jin or Penny and Des. Was glad to see that happen.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | March 5, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

And finally, LOVED Sawyer and Juliette. I think he's grown in ways that Kate has not emotionally. He's learned to trust, and he's learned to love not just Juliette but his friends like Jin. His recognition that Juliette has his back was, I thought, cute on the surface but moving in a deeper way as well. Whatever passion and similarlities of nature he shared with Kate, he's matured in ways she hasn't. She never reliably had his back.

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Sawyer sure seemed to recognize Amy when he pulled the bag off her head. But why???

Posted by: csteiger | March 5, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

I'm not sure that statue was Anubis. Over at Lost and Gone Forever, goklemez directs our attention to:

taueret, protectors of the pregnant women in egypt mythology.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2366/1236237056832.jpg

Posted by: eprice29 | March 5, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

The man bldg the cabin last season was Roger Workman (Ben's dad) - not Horace. Horace is the leader of the DI. Roger is the guy who ended up dead in the VW bus after Ben's mass murder.

Posted by: mmh37 | March 5, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

"The man bldg the cabin last season was Roger Workman (Ben's dad) - not Horace. Horace is the leader of the DI. Roger is the guy who ended up dead in the VW bus after Ben's mass murder."

Nope, it was Horace.

Which brings up all sorts of questions about how the Island feels about Dharma if it's sending their "leader" out as a ghost proxy to Locke in his search for Jacob.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | March 5, 2009 12:18 PM | Report abuse

Charlotte may have been born in 1979 in England, but when her mother took her to the island, the time may have reverted to the early 70's. She could have been time tripping long before the island was moved.

Posted by: doobrah | March 5, 2009 12:20 PM | Report abuse

Daniel wasn't wrong. Locke and Juliette were supposed to save Amy as it had already happened. However, 2004 versions of them don't know that because it hasn't happened to them yet. They hadn't gone back in time yet and therefore never saved her. Just like present!Daniel doesn't know that Charlotte died or have any memory of telling Charlotte that as a child as it hadn't happened till after though it's hard to think of in the timeline.

Also, Juliette was fantastic yesterday. I'm rooting for her and Sawyer.

Posted by: Catie87 | March 5, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Here're some screencaps.

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2008/05/episode-411-horace-goodspeed-lockes.html

Posted by: NotForYou1 | March 5, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

I am wondering about the little girl who is supposed to be Charlotte... If she was born in England in 1979 (as another post reminds us), perhaps she and her mother actually travelled back in time when they arrived on the island, as our O6 has.

Posted by: choeynanna | March 5, 2009 12:26 PM | Report abuse

I loved finally seeing the statue, though it was only the back. Reminded me of the movie The Time Machine (coincidence?), for some reason. Definitely a shout-out to Lost fans, as well as Sawyer's comment about Alpert's "eyeliner."

Posted by: Ellbeecee | March 5, 2009 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Things about Horace: He appeared in Locke's dream, chopping wood for a cabin, and told Locke that Jacob was waiting for him. Locke also got the map to Jacob's from his corpse. I wonder what this means. One could say Horace was passing the torch to Locke, from one leader to the next. but this is a little weird since the hostiles didnt get along with Horace, meaning that maybe Horace was not a destined leader of the island the way the hostiles think Locke is. I'm rambling. Any thoughts on Locke's dream of Horace and what it all means in light of last nights ep?

The purge happend in 1992 by the way.

Posted by: skitch00 | March 5, 2009 12:38 PM | Report abuse

PQ Sully -- Ditto. Love Juliet and Sawyer together and I agree that James has matured in ways Kate has not despite having to be a mom to Aaron.

Rose, Bernard, Vincent, who cares -- I want to know that Penny is alive and I also want to see Charlie again. Oh wisewomen of the LOST lore, say it will be so.

Wink.

Posted by: scandibaby | March 5, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Love the commentary, but if you are going to keep referencing Umberto Eco's book - please get it right. It's Foucault's Pendulum, not Focault's.

Posted by: Labradorian | March 5, 2009 12:46 PM | Report abuse

The Purge happened in mid-December 1994, when Ben was an adult. In 1974-77, when the Losties became part of Dharma, Ben would have still been a child. We are sure to meet up again with Ben and his dad, Roger "Workman" Linus, very soon!

I'm wondering what happened to Olivia Goodspeed, Horace's wife? She and Horace helped the Linuses when they found Roger with his newborn son and a dying Emily on the roadside, right after Ben was born. Then years later, on the Island, we saw Horace welcome the Linuses when they arrived, and we also saw Olivia as a schoolteacher in Ben's classroom. But now we are seeing Horace married to Amy. What happened to Olivia? Has something happened to change Horace's timeline?

Posted by: jesharris | March 5, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

We cannot trust that Charlotte was, in fact, born in 1979.

Although that is what was in Ben's file, she herself admitted that parts of her past were fabricated (to remove her prior history on the Island). If, so, her birth records easily could have been altered as well.

Charlotte could easily pass for 32-33 years old when she gets to the Island in early 2005.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 5, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Thanks to Catie87, ooyah32, and others who commented that (as far as I can tell) Dan's absolutely right about the time travel. I came here to say the same thing. As far as I can tell, there is not, has never been, will never be a version of 1974 when Sawyer and Juliet don't save Amy and kill the two hostiles. I think we have to stop thinking about this in Back to the Future terms. I think I mentioned this before, but the closest time travel model to the Lost situation is in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (movie and book.) What happened, happened: Sawyer and Juliet always saved Amy. Dan always scared young Charlotte. Harry always produced a patronus to save himself. Same thing!

Posted by: finestmuffins | March 5, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

Eye liner line was ok but the best quote of the show for me was when Daniel is dazed and spouting philosophical rhetoric about what will be - will be, and Saywer says - "Thanks anyway, Plato."

Posted by: tcurnow | March 5, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Well, I do also want to know what has happened to Penny and Des, and Aaron for that matter! But they weren't part of the direct story last night. They were back on the island in this episode and I wanted to know if there were any others that might have survived.

Posted by: aludholtz | March 5, 2009 12:54 PM | Report abuse

OMG- what if the baby Juliet delivered will be named JACOB! It could, because no one currently on the Island understands those implications.

Imagine that! Lost is the best show since the Cosby Show. Hands down!

Posted by: redraiderette | March 5, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Like Susannajoy, I loved the eyeliner line too. I thought it was a another nod to the Egyptian references.

Posted by: spasz | March 5, 2009 11:43 AM

I think it was more a reflection of the writers paying attention to the chatter on the boards about how Nestor Carbonell looks like he's wearing eyeliner. Which to me is even cooler than an Egyptian reference....

Posted by: susannajoy | March 5, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: skitch00 | March 5, 2009 12:38 PM

Good point. I have been thinking about this, too. I suspect that Locke is supposed to be the bridge between the two sides -- the healer, the one who brings the island back together into one whole instead of two warring factions. Alpert's team seems to look to him, and Jacob seems to be the voice of the island -- but then why would the voice of the island use Horace to tell Locke what to do if the Dharma guys are just "outsiders" who shouldn't be there?

I also suspect the "no children" thing is a result of this schism -- sort of a symbolic punishment for moving away from the unified "whole" that the island wants. The Dharma-ites had a bunch of kids. Sure, maybe they were born off-island. But then again, in all the time we've spent with the Dharma folks, no one has mentioned any kind of pregnancy curse, which seems odd if there really is one. So, yeah, maybe fallout from the gassing -- but whatever the mechanism, I suspect it symbolizes the lack of wholeness on the island, and can/will be cured if/when Locke does his "savior" job (whatever/however that may be).

So: why did Richard Alpert want the body?

Posted by: laura33 | March 5, 2009 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Oh- and total Kawyer or whatever. Sawyer and Kate were meant to be. Jack had his chance, and sorry, Juliet cannot be trusted. I mean, look at the picture on this page of the two of them hugging- even the photo lacks chemistry! Totally looks staged and fake. I mean, Sawyer's "baby blues" said it all when he saw Kate step out of the car!

"Eyeliner" is the second best Sawyer nickname reference- next to Hurley's "Stay Puft" reference!

Posted by: redraiderette | March 5, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the analysis, Liz and Jen. Good point that all Sawyer did was retell Rousseau's story. As a practiced liar I suppose he subscribes to the belief that it's best to stick as close to the truth as possible.

One request: could you please NOT put spoiler info gleaned from perusing imdb, etc. into the analysis? It's easy enough to break stories by going outside the Lost universe and passing on inside info, but that's not the point of watching the show or theorizing about what's going on.

Posted by: UniqueID | March 5, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Thoughts:

-I agree with eprice29 that the statue fits with the egyptian god taueret, but honestly when I first saw the statue I thought it was of Kate.

-Sawyer and Juliet. Nice. Seems Sawyer/James/Jim have grown up a little. And I don't think he has anything for Kate, but knows Kate can push his buttons, and that is what he fears.

-No one seems worried that the DI will be wiped out in 18 years. You'd think they would have a plan to get off the island one day, maybe talk to Richard. But they're acting like they haven't a clue as to what is coming, including little Ben.

-Why were Amy and her husband outside the perimeter? They must have know it was dangerous. And with her due in two weeks. Maybe they were trying to escape the DI?

-Was it me or was anyone else surprised that earplugs allowed you to walk through the sonic fence. What kind of security is that?

-I watched last week's episode again last night paying attention to the hotel room scene where Ben kills Locke. I'm now convinced that Ben went there to prevent the suicide AND kill Locke. There is an ancient notion that killing your rivel gives you power. Locke was told he had to kill his dad. Ben kills his dad, etc. But there is also the christian notion of giving one's life for others, which Locke was about to do. May it be that if Locke had committed suicide he would have returned to the island and replaced Jacob? And by killing Locke Ben prevented Locke from becoming something more powerful?

-Did anyone notice that Amy wanted/insisted the dead Others be buried, which Sawyer balked at, and that Richard wanted their grave locations? The egyptians believed the body had to be preserved (thus mummies) in order to make it to the afterlife. If you burned or decomposed you could not see the afterlife. And Richard wanting Amy's husband's body would be akin to capturing his soul, at least in an after-life sort of way.

-I did notice that Juliet said "most" of the DI were killed in the purge. I'm thinking that was to open the plot for our heros to escape the purge in future episodes. But it seemed pretty clear that the DI was "wiped out" in earlier episodes. So this whole 1974 time period may not have been in the original plotline.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 5, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

I would expect Charlotte to have been in her 30s, not mid/late 20s, when she went to the island. If she was a practicing PhD archeologist/anthropologist, that takes time.

Posted by: HardyW | March 5, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

went to the island on the freighter, I mean

Posted by: HardyW | March 5, 2009 1:07 PM | Report abuse

At first I wanted to Sawyer and Kate to be together, but now I realize that Kate and Jack are the 2 most annoying characters and are made for eachother, with their never-ending, unjustified temper-tantrums, about everything.

Posted by: skitch00 | March 5, 2009 1:08 PM | Report abuse

And what about the name Horace? Reminds me of Horus, son of Osiris and Isis in Egyption mythology. Perhaps the statue was Horus. Horus is the God that bestowed immortality on the pharohs.

Anubis looks like my mother-in-law's dog, Brutus, a miniature pinscher.

And agree, it was definitely Horace's ghost that met Locke. Forgot completely about that. You guys are good!

Posted by: hodie | March 5, 2009 1:10 PM | Report abuse

I suspect the losties wont get killed in the purge because they will leave the island and/or the 1974 timeline trajectory before the purge occurrs in 1992.

Posted by: skitch00 | March 5, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Liz and Jen: As for Locke, Ben, et al not being there at the same time...how can you be sure? The state of the station indicates disuse, not necessarily a later time.

I had some idea that they were on the other island (the "Hydra" island), and that they can see the main island from there. If that's so, couldn't they be in the same time?

Posted by: lostjesuit | March 5, 2009 1:12 PM | Report abuse

-Why were Amy and her husband outside the perimeter? They must have know it was dangerous. And with her due in two weeks. Maybe they were trying to escape the DI? bevjims1

Amy wasn't pregnant when she met Sawyer, etc. That was three years earlier.

Posted by: choeynanna | March 5, 2009 1:13 PM | Report abuse

I agree with L8yF8 and others who point out that the maternity thing in 1977 is obviously not the same thing that was going on in 2004. In 2004, pregnant women DIE before reaching the third trimester. In 1977, there's just a sensible feeling that the mainland is more appropriate for delivery than an island with one doctor who's not an obstetrician.

Also agree that Sawyer "saving" Amy proves nothing either way about Dan's assertion that the timeline can't be changed. Dan's claim is that this is the original/only timeline, which has always included Amy not dying, etc.

And I don't see why Amy's baby has to be important or even anyone we know. Sun's baby isn't central to the storyline, despite her unusual origin in having been conceived on the island. This kid's probably no more a plot nexus than JiYeon is.

Dan being reminded of Charlotte or even thinking this little girl might be her (and at that point, Dan might not have known they were as far back as 1974) doesn't make it so. Not every redhead is identical/related, and there's no reason Annie, Charlotte, and that little girl can't all be completely separate people. This urge reminds me of the insistence some had that Michael had to be Rose's missing husband (even if he is 25 years younger than she) and the idea that Matthew Abaddon must be Walt grown up.

Posted by: UniqueID | March 5, 2009 1:17 PM | Report abuse

And with infinite universes, you have an infinite degree of possible outcomes, in which "whatever happened, happened" becomes "whatever can happen, happened".

Posted by: hiberniantears | March 5, 2009 1:17 PM | Report abuse

"-Why were Amy and her husband outside the perimeter? They must have know it was dangerous. And with her due in two weeks."

No she and Paul were outside the perimeter in 1974, the birth was in 1977

"-Was it me or was anyone else surprised that earplugs allowed you to walk through the sonic fence. What kind of security is that?"

Lame! Although it does allow some dialog about getting them to turn the fence all the way up, explaining why on one setting people would just get knocked out, while on another their brains would melt.

"-Did anyone notice that Amy wanted/insisted the dead Others be buried, ... And Richard wanting Amy's husband's body would be akin to capturing his soul, at least in an after-life sort of way."

I was approaching it more mechanically, figured she wanted to bury the dead others to hide the evidence, and that Richard wanted Paul's body just to bring back as evidence that the violence had gone both ways.

Posted by: HardyW | March 5, 2009 1:17 PM | Report abuse

Why was the situation in regards the truce settled to everyone's satisfaction by the Others taking the Amy's husband's body? What would they do with the body once it was in their possession? Defile it? Eat it? Perform experiments on it? Wha? It seemed as if everyone accepted the request to take the remains as not abnormal.

Posted by: BlueSF | March 5, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

"Why were Amy and her husband outside the perimeter? They must have know it was dangerous. And with her due in two weeks. Maybe they were trying to escape the DI?"

She wasn't due in two weeks when they were outside the perimeter. There was a three year difference between when Sawyer et al stumbled on her and when she gave birth. When she was about to give birth (two weeks early), Horace was outside the perimeter, near the Flame(where we saw McPatchy kill Mrs Klugh) blowing up trees. Still unknown why Amy and Paul were outside, but I seem to remember her saying something along the lines of "We were just taking a walk."

Horace was the one who appeared to John Locke last season, while building his cabin. Did anyone notice his nose was also bleeding in that scene? Coincidence?

Posted by: eet7e | March 5, 2009 1:21 PM | Report abuse

"Why was the situation in regards the truce settled to everyone's satisfaction by the Others taking the Amy's husband's body?"

Richard said his people wanted (I can't remember which) justice or revenge. You killed ours, we killed yours. tit for tat, eye for eye, all that. Dead Dharma dude demonstrates justice/revenge for dead Other/Hostile dudes.

Posted by: emfzlx | March 5, 2009 1:25 PM | Report abuse

I also want to know what happened to Rose and Bernard! Apparently qwerqwer1 is the only one who also cares. I really enjoy Rose and Bernard; I liked their mature-couple bickering, and their expressions of deep love found late in life.

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Just remembered that we were also presented with proof that Richard Alpert is either otherworldly in a unique way, or that he knows a secret way to get into the compound: remember he told Horace that the sonic fence couldn't keep him out. (I assume that the fence was turned back up to 11 and that he didn't just wear earplugs.)

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 1:34 PM | Report abuse

can someone explain why Richard had no problem walking through the sonic fence? are time travelers exempt?

Also, the fact that Richard has no problem with it seems to indicate that the fence was built to keep other things (smokey) out and not the others, no?

Posted by: wormsparkly | March 5, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Amy wasn't pregnant when she met Sawyer, etc. That was three years earlier.
Posted by: choeynanna

Oh yea. Bad enough the island is flashing back and forth in time, the writers do it with the plot as well. So confusing. And with the switch of Lost episodes from Thursdays to Wednesdays I now think it is Friday when reading these comments, so my days are confused. Oh no my nose is bleeding!

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 5, 2009 1:37 PM | Report abuse

"At first I wanted to Sawyer and Kate to be together, but now I realize that Kate and Jack are the 2 most annoying characters"...

Whoa, you're just realizing how annoying those 2 are!!? It was so nice to see James and Juliet grow closer and eventually fall in love, no angst-ridden Sawyer, pining away for that idiotic broad who couldn't make up her mind. Just in love w/a woman who literally had his back (loved the spooning in bed moment). If he leaves Juliet for "freckles", I'll be livid

Posted by: plamar1031 | March 5, 2009 1:38 PM | Report abuse

Horace was the one who appeared to John Locke last season, while building his cabin. Did anyone notice his nose was also bleeding in that scene? Coincidence?

Posted by: eet7e | March 5, 2009 1:21 PM

eet7e, Thank You! I kept thinking that in the scene with Horace and Locke, Horace's nose was bleeding but I couldn't recall for sure. I wonder now if that isn't significant in some way. And the site won't let me change my user ID, but if it did, you could call me LostinTexas. I am enjoying the show more this season than ever.

Posted by: texanforobamabiden | March 5, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

re horace nosebleed: There are different theories on why this might be. 1) it has something to do with time travel or 2) horace just looks like he did when he died of the gassing. you can find screen shots of him dead on the bench, with a bloody nose.

also interesting to note, when ben investigated the scene after the purge, he closed the eyes of horace, and only horace, as a sign of respect due to the fact that he brought ben to the island. It also might indicate that the purge wasnt his idea, that he was doing as alpert and the others wanted.

Posted by: skitch00 | March 5, 2009 1:51 PM | Report abuse

I agree with those who simply feel the Sawyer line about the "eyeliner" dude (referring to Richard) is nothing more than the writers shouting out to the fans. And I like that. I don't think it has anything to do with the Egyptian immortal line of thought (that is where the statue comes into play).

Posted by: dojemc | March 5, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

After last nights show I now believe that Ben has been used by Richard along. He needed someone on the inside to get the gas to kill everyone. Ben is just a patse(sp)... It seems everything Ben is trying is going wrong for him when he acts on his own.

Also Richard should not have been surprised to see Sawyer... maybe thats the reason he gets Ben to try and kill everyone

Posted by: crudeone | March 5, 2009 2:09 PM | Report abuse

"Why was the situation in regards the truce settled to everyone's satisfaction by the Others taking the Amy's husband's body? What would they do with the body once it was in their possession? Defile it? Eat it? Perform experiments on it? Wha? It seemed as if everyone accepted the request to take the remains as not abnormal.

Posted by: BlueSF"

I wondered about that too. All that is obvious is that Richard needed Paul's body so he could calm his Hostiles by pointing out that it wasn't that Dharma had gotten away with killing two of them with impunity, that they'd taken out a DI guy too (first).

But of course if that's the reason then it's still noteworthy that apparently Richard knows his people won't just believe him when he tells them "Paul is dead ;)" and he actually has to cart a body back to them. That doesn't speak well of the esteem RA is held in by his faction. They seem like a bunch of undisciplined hillbillies, and maybe they are.

Posted by: UniqueID | March 5, 2009 2:11 PM | Report abuse

"also interesting to note, when ben investigated the scene after the purge, he closed the eyes of horace, and only horace, as a sign of respect due to the fact that he brought ben to the island. It also might indicate that the purge wasnt his idea, that he was doing as alpert and the others wanted."
Posted by: skitch00

I never thought the purge WAS Ben's plan; I always figured that, since he was a boy and enountered Richard, Richard was grooming him to do his bidding. Which now makes me think: is there not evidence than Richard has been the leader of the Hostiles/Others all along, and that he just chooses different individuals to be basically be figureheads whom he manipulates to do his bidding? After all, how did Ben become Ben? Richard chose him and groomed him. Who has also encouraged Locke to believe he is special and to take over The Others and ultimately sacrifice himself? Richard.

OK, I'm falling in love with my new theory: What if the REAL war is The Island (Jacob) versus Richard??? And everyone else--Losties, O6, Ben, Widmore, etc.--are all just pieces on the game board moved around by Jacob and Richard??!!

If I'm right, you all owe me a Coke!

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

When time was skipping Sawyer, Juliette, Daniel, etc. experience only a few days. When Locke went through the portal her appeared in Tunisia 3 years later. Do you think the trip through the portal took three years, or was the moment he turned the donkey wheel 3 years in the future so that's when he popped up in Tunisia?

Posted by: buffysummers | March 5, 2009 2:15 PM | Report abuse

While it's probably a long shot (and also cyncial), I wonder whether Sawyer started the relationship with Juliet to convince her to stay on the island - at least at first. She gave him the 2 week ultimatum and obviously they didn't get off the island yet -- what convinced her to stay? He swept her off her feet in 2 weeks?

Why do people think that Locke, Cesar & Co. are in a different time than Kate, Jack, Jin, Sawyer etc.? I thought Locke & Co. aren't even ON the island proper, they're off on the smaller satellite island, so it's not like they'd be running into each other?

Posted by: allison777 | March 5, 2009 2:18 PM | Report abuse

>> Do you think the trip through the portal took three years, or was the moment he turned the donkey wheel 3 years in the future so that's when he popped up in Tunisia? <<

Actually, the moment Locke turned the wheel, we saw on the surface that the time was in the past, back when the four-toed statute was still standing. How he went from far in the past to three years in the future is a mystery.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 5, 2009 2:19 PM | Report abuse

One more thing... I think they want the bodies because clearly the island has some ability to resurrect people - Locke, Christian Shephard etc. - maybe they are sending them down the smokey hole like the French guy and they come out indoctrinated? Or they have some other way of resurrecting people? Pet Cemetery anyone?

Posted by: allison777 | March 5, 2009 2:21 PM | Report abuse

Maybe the baby is Jacob. Who knows what age Jacob is and that being the first baby conceived and born on the island who knows what that means.

Posted by: never2taxing | March 5, 2009 2:23 PM | Report abuse

If Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley can head to the island in 2008 yet arrive in 1977, I think it is possible for Charlotte to be be born in England in 1979 yet arrive at the island in 1974 or earlier.

I too miss Rose, Bernard, and Vincent. I hope the show gives there characters some sort of closure instead of disappearing into the jungle. I am surprised there was little effort to find them.

Two things about last weeks episode, and I apologize if they have already been talked about. Why did Locke and possibly Sun land with the plane, and not arrive on the island with Jack, Kate Sayid Hurley. Were they not suppose to return to the island (like Ben).

What year did the plane land at the Hydra? Jack et al returned to the island in 1977, but given that the Hydra station looks abandoned are Locke, Ben, and possibly Sun in present time?

Posted by: adam_peritz | March 5, 2009 2:26 PM | Report abuse

allison777- We think the Locke and Ben are in a different time period because Ceasar is in an abandoned station. If it was 1977 then the Dharma Initiative would be manning the station.

Posted by: L8yF8 | March 5, 2009 2:29 PM | Report abuse

Also Richard should not have been surprised to see Sawyer... maybe thats the reason he gets Ben to try and kill everyone
Posted by: crudeone

Am I missing something? Did Richard meet Sawyer during the 1954 flash? I don't think he did. I thought Richard only met Locke, Faraday, Miles and Charlotte. But Ellie met Sawyer and Juliet. So it didn't seem to me surprising that Richard did not recognize Sawyer, but he would have recognized Miles, or Faraday. But Richard should have understood, and maybe he did, that Sawyer was probably a time traveler like Locke, based on the question Sawyer asked: "Did you bury the bomb", and maybe that is why he agreed to the new truce.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 5, 2009 2:33 PM | Report abuse

does anyone else think it is significant that faraday is aware of something he is supposed to do (that is, tell charlotte not to come back to the island) in his future/the past and he is pledging not to do so?

i believe he is the first person who has time travelled who also has knowledge of something he has done in the past. in addition, he wants to change the course of events so that charlotte doesn't die. this makes me think that he may in fact refuse to tell charlotte not to come back.

if this is right and fate doesn't force faraday to cooperate, it could be resolved in a number of ways. one of them would be sawyer, hurley, jack or any other person who enters the compound being the person who tells charlotte not to come back (she doesn't seem to have remembered clearly that it was faraday), or it could cause a rift in the course of events on the island.

Posted by: acslater | March 5, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

But then it goes back to the theory of Charlie that what is destined (his death) will eventually happen. Her death on the island. I think she was doomed no matter what.

Posted by: never2taxing | March 5, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

Sully, your comments and ideas are always my favorite to read. I think you're onto something with this Richard Alpert idea. Perhaps Richard Alpert is Jacob, or Richard Alpert has simply convinced various people of Jacob's existence to suit his needs? Who are all of the Jacob followers, and have they all been convinced by Richard? The only Jacob followers I can think of are Ben and Locke, who were both influenced by Richard. Are there others?

Posted by: LostInSeattle | March 5, 2009 2:47 PM | Report abuse

I find it really interesting how the O6 were gone for 3 years (essentially in the future for the people on the island) and the losties went back 3 years in the past. Also that the core group had to stay together (sawyer doing a better job at DI then Jack did). Jack and Kate having a relationship and Sawyer and Juliet = relationship. Charlotte dying on the island. Locke dying off island. Nice symmetry. Interesting how the people on the island are much happier than the O6 and funny how the losties were "saved" once Locke left or is it because the O6 were on the plane in the whole time warp that is the show. :)

Posted by: never2taxing | March 5, 2009 2:49 PM | Report abuse

Am I missing something? Did Richard meet Sawyer during the 1954 flash? I don't think he did.

Posted by: bevjims1

That's is what I was trying to say... Time travlers are poping up on the island. Not that he meet Sawyer in person... So now he knows that others are coming back so he wants the DI folks killed to they are not outnumbered

Posted by: crudeone | March 5, 2009 2:49 PM | Report abuse

"Sully, your comments and ideas are always my favorite to read. I think you're onto something with this Richard Alpert idea. Perhaps Richard Alpert is Jacob, or Richard Alpert has simply convinced various people of Jacob's existence to suit his needs? Who are all of the Jacob followers, and have they all been convinced by Richard? The only Jacob followers I can think of are Ben and Locke, who were both influenced by Richard. Are there others? "

There is Whitmore.

Wonder how he got Whitmore in the first place.

Posted by: never2taxing | March 5, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

"OK, I'm falling in love with my new theory: What if the REAL war is The Island (Jacob) versus Richard??? And everyone else--Losties, O6, Ben, Widmore, etc.--are all just pieces on the game board moved around by Jacob and Richard??!!
If I'm right, you all owe me a Coke!"
Posted by: PQSully

Well, this jives nicely with my notion a few weeks back that the island is the rhelm of ancient gods: greek, egyptian, and/or roman, who knows, but those gods killed with impunity and fought amongst themselves and manipulated people's lives in godly chess games against each other. You only need to remember how the gods tossed Odysseus or Jason all over the seas as they played their games. I'm holding that theory until I get more evidence. The statue supports the idea. And in this theory Richard is one of the gods. Apollo is my initial guess. And smokey is the god of the underworld, Oriris is my guess there. Jacob is likely Zeus, dethroned and held in the underworld against his will. Christian Shepard is a god, which one I don't know. It happened in mythology, why not on Lost? But also there is the mythology where gods have children with mortals, making these children somewhat supermen. Hercules was such a half-man-half-god. I'm guessing Ben, Locke, Ellie, Jack, Kate and Widmore are all half-gods, many unknowingly so. All working or being manipulated to capture Mt. Olympus (the island).

If I'm right, you all owe me a Beer!"

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 5, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

Great Episode and Great Analysis (again...too many people criticize but don't realize that they get all of these extras for free!)

1) Timeline:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline:Pre-crash

This will help clear up a lot of the confusion as to when things are happening.

2) Juliet and Sawyer
I think that they'll stay together. I have no proof of this but I'm hoping that Kate will meet Dave (of Hurley and Dave) and jump off the cliff with him

3) Sawyer and Alpert
Of course Richard doesn't know Sawyer. They haven't met yet. When Sawyer and Locke came to his camp in '54, Richard was in his tent and Locke(alone) walked in. At that time Alpert had a similar reaction to Locke ("do I know you?")

4) The Flight 316 plane (and everybody at the Hydra) are in sometime post 2004. The plane is clearly using the runway that was built by Sawyer, Kate, and crew in Season 3. While the runway was probably not planned for a plane that size it did come in handy.

5)The baby is probably not Jacob but could be somebody else we have met before, then again it could be nobody and just a device to show give Juliet back her faith in humanity.

6) PQ Sully, as always I love your insights. It very well might be all a big game of "Island Risk" (perhaps being played by Kramer and Newman!)

Sorry for the length this week.
(former screen name "DaPlaneDaPlane"

Posted by: deltaxi | March 5, 2009 3:05 PM | Report abuse

"Why did Locke and possibly Sun land with the plane, and not arrive on the island with Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley. Were they not suppose to return to the island (like Ben).
Posted by: adam_peritz

No clue where Sun is. Well, one clue is the unknown woman who grabbed a boat and left with Lopedis. Sun ending up in 2007 makes little sense when Jack/Kate/Hurley end up in 1977. It made sense that Locke/Ben had left the island and could not go back, and so are on the second island and separate from our Losties. It doesn't make sense that Sun would be in 2007 with the new survivors and not 1977 with Jack et al. Or does it? Maybe having a child in the present keeps you in the present?

And if it was Sun who left with Lopedis, keep in mind that Sun was working for Widmore and Lopedis was working for Widmore. Maybe Sun showed up for the flight because Widmore asked her to be on the plane, and put Lopedis on the plane to they could be his agents on the island.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 5, 2009 3:07 PM | Report abuse

"Well, this jives nicely with my notion a few weeks back that the island is the rhelm of ancient gods"
Posted by: bevjims1

Hmmm, I think our theories differ by a matter of degree: I see only the Island/Jacob and POSSIBLY Richard as being... well, not any fo the familiar gods per se but some sore of powerful beings. I think LOST in general has too many scientific elements to ultimately provide a "battle of the gods" answer to the series. BUT I do like your idea of Jacob/Island somehow being imprisoned (like Zeus) by perhaps Richard. Hmmm, I've got more thinkin' to do.

Let the Battle of the Beverages begin!

Posted by: PQSully | March 5, 2009 3:19 PM | Report abuse

I think Amy's baby is Ethan Rom. Amy could be Amelia whom we met at Juliet's book club meeting.

Do we know for sure that Horace and Olivia were husband & wife? They could have been siblings--need to rewatch that episode.

I agree that Richard Alpert may be manipulating Ben; in Season 3 when they first met, Richard was impressed with the fact that Ben could see not just dead people, but people who died off the island. My first thought was that Richard had been taken in by Ben, but now I'm not so sure.

Posted by: Burnie | March 5, 2009 3:32 PM | Report abuse

"Actually, the moment Locke turned the wheel, we saw on the surface that the time was in the past, back when the four-toed statute was still standing. How he went from far in the past to three years in the future is a mystery."

No, the statue time came from the flash that knocked Locke off the rope and killed Charlotte. The final flash that felt like an earthquake and left them in 1974 was the one from Locke turning the wheel.

Posted by: HardyW | March 5, 2009 3:35 PM | Report abuse

just a quick clarification here. It was said at some point today that Ben killed the Dharma folk in the Purge. However if you go back and read the "Man Behind the Curtain" notes on Lostpedia (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Man_Behind_the_Curtain) you'll notice that we only see Ben kill his dad (Rodger). He comes back into Eggtown to see Richard and the Others wearing gas masks and all the dead Dharma folk. Then Richard and Ben take off their masks.

Do we know FOR SURE that Ben actually initiated the purge? I know we saw all the bodies in the pit but did Ben actually say "I killed all of them"?

In "The Other Woman" when Daniel and Juliet and Charlote are in the Tempest, Charlote says: CHARLOTTE: Juliet... look me in the eye and tell me you are certain that Benjamin Linus wouldn't use this gas to kill everyone on this island! We know he's used it before."

But that doesn't mean he killed everybody with it. It could have been the same gas he used to kill his father.

Posted by: deltaxi | March 5, 2009 3:40 PM | Report abuse

I love this show, but NOOOOOO to Juliet and Sawyer. I do agree that Kate is annoying, but I cannot stand Juliet. Sawyer really does love Kate, and maybe this time apart will make them suck up their egos and be together. Juliet has no emotion, and is like a robot. She was having an affair when we met her, has double crossed everyone, and cannot be trusted. And her facial expressions look like a comedy-tradgedy mask.

Posted by: christina991 | March 5, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Ben told Hurley that "he'd killed them all" when Locke was in the mass grave searching for the map to Jacob's cabin.

Posted by: Burnie | March 5, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

At some point a couple of weeks ago, there was a discussion of our first glimpse of 1970's Faraday w/ Dr. Candle and how the dig team he was working for might have discovered Jughead or the donkey wheel. Do you think we're headed in this direction, i.e. our heroes need to re-discover the donkey wheel (and maybe avoid Jughead) and give it a good spin to get them back to the '00s?

My favorite line last night: Sawyer claims that Horace's drunken dynamite toss was going to be front-page news in the Coconut Gazette...who do we think writes for this rag?

Finally, Kate = unemployed murderer, baby napper, doesnt like to play house with Sawyer, and uses Jack as a baby-making machine.

Juliet = cutting-edge fertility doctor, has Sawyer's back, loves playing house, makes great pasta, and only periodically engages in mild forms of torture.

I dont really see a choice here for our man.

Posted by: StuartB | March 5, 2009 3:55 PM | Report abuse

I may be a week off (I watched the last two episodes last night);

I guess I'm the only one who loved the scene where Sawyer and the asian "death channeler" guy were debating about where to go. "Let's go to the beach" "But there's nothing there now" "well we'll make stuff"...I thought it was hilarious because that's all they seem to do is hike back and forth ad nauseum.

Oh and loved the Richard Alpert "mr. eyeliner" comment. I thought I was the only one who noticed how the guy always wears eyeliner. And for the leader of the others, Richard Alpert never seems to know anything.

Posted by: Heerman532 | March 5, 2009 4:06 PM | Report abuse

My theory which really doesn't mean anything is that Richard is a caretaker or a "number 2" who understands the island takes care of it and the others but is not the true leader. I think that Locke is the chosen one and was suppose to become the true leader when Richard came to see him when he was a child but he either wasn't ready or his free will overtook his destiny and he chose the wrong object.

In comes Ben and he was not destined to become the leader of the others but weaseled his way in. He either planned or was a major player in orchestrating the purge. The punishment for the purge was the inability to reproduce on the island anymore. In 1974 babies were a possibility (presuming the new character conceived on the island) since she lived well into the 3rd trimester (the women died at the beginning of the third trimester if I remember correctly).

The island is waiting for Locke to take his rightful place and change the island mojo for babies. The war will be between Ben and Locke (?) Widmore (?). As for Jacob, not sure where he fits unless he is truly the spirit of the island.

My two cents.

Posted by: qwerqwer1 | March 5, 2009 5:46 PM | Report abuse

Fellow Losties! Please help me figure this out.
Once the losties left behind (Sawyer, Juliet and Company) began having flashes and traveling through time, we can assume that only they were traveling through time and the outside world was seemingly unaffected as we saw the Oceanic 6 did not suffer from severe flashes off the island. What I don't understand is once Locke "fixed the problem" and the flashes ended when they were in 1974, why is it assumed that if Juliet or the others traveled outside the island on the submarine that they would still be in 1974?
We even saw that the O6 were in 2005(?) when they were returning on the flight to Guam, and they flashed for some reason to 1977. Now if they left the island why can't they return to 2005?

Posted by: VillageIdeot | March 6, 2009 1:36 AM | Report abuse

Great comments! I'm always amazed by what people notice.

I thought Richard said the sonic fence wouldn't keep "us" out. Not just him, but all the Others. This makes me wonder what (who?) else is on the island that they would be keeping out. I guess those wild boars and polar bears...

One thing that struck me that no one has mentioned is the chair... I think it was when the guys came running to get "LaFleur". Sawyer grabbed is jacket/shirt off a chair in the house before running off. What struck me was that the camera really seemed to focus on the chair. I need to rewatch it but it seemed like it wasn't even really showing Sawyer but it showed the empty chair for a moment. The totally out there thought that popped into my head at the time was of Jacob's chair... When Ben first took Locke to see Jacob, at first it was just an empty chair and then Locke saw Jacob. My thought was that this focus on the chair was meant to hint at some connection between Sawyer and Jacob. Of course I have no idea what that would be... ;-)

Posted by: lameal2002 | March 6, 2009 6:11 AM | Report abuse

why did Ben leave John hanging only to then take his body and store it at a meat facility later? Ben obviously intended to take John back to the island with everyone else. If John was alive, he could not get Sun to go back because John wasn't going to ask. Killing John gave Ben the ability to get Sun on the plane.

Posted by: humanrace | March 6, 2009 7:41 AM | Report abuse

Can't recall if this was already mentioned but... Richard Alpert = RA ... coincidence?
That statue could just as easily be of Ra. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra
Not sure what all this means, but clearly, along with the Horace/Horus parallel, there's a heavy dose of Egyptian mythology being injected.

Posted by: thirstycat | March 6, 2009 8:47 AM | Report abuse

I don't know whether Ben saved Locke from hanging himself with the intention of killing himself, or whether he meant to save him and changed his mind when he learned that Locke was told of Mrs. Hawking. BUT if it's the latter, the question becomes: why so upset? We know that Christian (i.e., Jacob) told Locke to find her. Ben may guess at that and be trying to protect his own status as Jacob confidant by killing Locke. BUT he could also assume that WIDMORE told Locke about Hawking, which I think would better explain his actions: if Widmore knows of Hawking, then he (to Ben's mind) was sending John to infiltrate Ben and Hawking's operation. Thus, Locke must die after all to prevent him from acting on Widmore's behalf. This would also explain Ben's fury at later discovering that Hawking is Dan's mother--Dan who was hired by Widmore, implying that Hawking may also be in the tank for Widmore. I wonder what may have transpired between Ben and Eloise between the time the O6 and Ben receive her instructions for returning to the island and the time Ben arrives on the flight, bloodied and beaten?

Posted by: PQSully | March 6, 2009 8:58 AM | Report abuse

Here is something that I've been thinking about since seeing this episode. When John was going down the well and the flash of light happened why did he fall? I thought when the flash happened whatever you were touching went with you. As we saw in the opener of this episode Sawyer was holding onto the rope at the top of the well after the flash so why didn't John have the other end in the well?

Posted by: plabrss | March 6, 2009 9:58 AM | Report abuse

"Can't recall if this was already mentioned but... Richard Alpert = RA ... coincidence?"
Posted by: thirstycat

Its been brought up. I'm leaning heavily toward Alpert being an ancient god, lost after years of his followers turning to other religions. That or a titan, the people who inhabited the earth before man was created according to the ancient Greeks. The question is whether the other Others are also gods. One thing is clear though, once someone, like Rousseau's crew or Cindy the stewardess are captured by the Others, they seem to accept the importance of the island and even be willing to kill those they love. Rousseau called it a sickness. What would you do if you found out the island was really the home of ancient gods who could provide everlasting life in a bountiful garden?

But one thing is bothering me. Where did Ellie and Widmore come from? They were 17 when Locke meets them on the island. What would 17 year olds be doing on an island, holding guns and able to break necks of friends?

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 6, 2009 10:24 AM | Report abuse

"As we saw in the opener of this episode Sawyer was holding onto the rope at the top of the well after the flash so why didn't John have the other end in the well?"
Posted by: plabrss | March 6, 2009 9:58 AM

What I remember was that John was having a tough time decending and was losing control even before the flash started. As the flash got brighter I thought he let loose of the rope and fell. And probably a good thing since if the flash completed while he was still decending he might have been stuck in the dirt of the undug well. But the rope went in time with Locke/Sawyer. That is why the rope was going into the ground. It traveled back in time with Locke/Sawyer since one or both were touching it. We didn't see it at the bottom of the well because it probably did not reach all the way to the bottom.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 6, 2009 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Perhaps the Island is Atlantis, or at least the original source of the Atlantis mythology. In this game of "what if," the Island's early history might be that, thousands of years ago, it was the home to a civilization more advanced than others in the world at that time as a result of the Island's "powers" or "special qualities." The civilization's religious and social structure was in turn based on an awareness of the Island's powers, which they worshipped and obeyed, even if they did not really understand it.

Then, some fateful event happened, such as a betrayal of the Island and its powers by the people or their leaders (a prideful ruler, digging in the wrong place, building big four-toed statues, etc.). In retribution, the Island destroyed this civilization. The people (or a small, select group of them) either escaped or were exiled via the portal that now lies under the Orchid Station. These people came out of the portal in Tunisia (just as Ben and Locke did) and began wandering/migrating along the southern coast of the Mediterranean until they came to the Nile River valley. There, they established their new "civilization in exile" using the same writing, art and architecture, religion, etc., that they had known on the Island. The result? The beginnings of the civilization that we now call "Ancient Egypt" -- a civilization that was one of the most advanced of its time.

Posted by: NotDoc | March 6, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Big thanks to Jen & Liz. And, great comments from everyone. Here's my contribution.

First, great hypothesis from NotDoc.

So, I think the reason Ben is bloodied is because someone was very upset that he actually killed Locke. I'm going with those who say that he acted irrationally once he learned about the Hawking/Widmore/Sun stuff or connection. So, that would mean the death of Locke would lead to some problems once he's back on the Island. That is, there'd have to be a consequence to Ben's emotional collapse.

Did anyone else hear, at the very beginning of the episode, the two "guards" (Phil & Jerry) joke about the polar bears? They refer to them as being underground and that made me think of last week's comments that the bears were trained for a task like pushing the wheel. Initially, I thought that was a pushing it a bit (even for Lost) but this week's episode makes it more likely.

Anyhow, I'm really trying to get my head around the motivation of these major players. And trying to avoid thinking about the time travel stuff, which nearly impossible, because it seems such a "distraction" in some ways.

In any cae, I'm guessing that one camp wants to somehow control the Island's powers, whereas the other camp wants to protect it.

This would be similar to faith versus science vs superstition question, which is the oldest question there is. In other words, is the Earth here for us to do as we want, to try to control it for our own ends? Or are we the stewards of this great planet? Merely travelers going along with it?

And finally, when did Sawyer start changing? When he started reading. And now look how far he's come. So knowledge, about one's self and one's surroundings, are the key to growth. He's no longer the center of his universe, and he's much better for it.

Posted by: lebowski | March 6, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Nice logic NotDoc. I like your thinking, that the island's culture lead to the establishment of Egypt's ancient culture as those who left the island ended up in Tunisia, then the Nile delta. Makes a lot of sense. And everyone in ancient Egypt used eyeliner so they would look more like Richard Alpert (Ra)! But I don't think Atlantis will be part of this. Its just too debunked that I don't think the writers would cheapen the story by bringing in Atlantis.

So Egypt will be important. Richard may be Ra. Horace had Paul's Ankh (the Egyptian symbol for eternal life). If you look at the picture of Ra thirstycat provided:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra
you will see Ra holding an Ankh. So the island does seem to have a connection to ancient egyptian religion.

I guess that means its time to re-read the Egyptian Book of the Dead ( http://www.thenazareneway.com/index_egyptain_book_dead.htm ). But I don't remember anything that is in any way similar to what we are seeing on Lost. Ancient Greek gods however, yeah, even imprisoning other gods (Jacob).

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 6, 2009 12:55 PM | Report abuse

I think that there is a fundamental flaw with the Tralfamadorian time theory as applied to this show. We have already seen at least one -- and I would argue two -- instances where characters changed events. Desmond bought the ring, and then he didn't buy the ring. He participated in the same exact event twice with different results.

I would argue that the second instance is when Faraday asked Desmond to look up his mother. Desmond has apparently gone for years without any memory of this episode, but at the exact same point in show time he wakes up with a vivid memory of this event. Now I know this doesn't prove anything like the ring episode does, but it clearly seemed to me that Faraday deliberately changed the past -- and now he's thinking of doing it again with Charlotte.

I will be very disappointed if Lost falls into the "time is amber" theory of time travel, because this is the realm of 50 years of stale science fiction. Once you get into the paradox of "ou can't go back in time and kill your own mother," you end up with ridiculous plot lines like Michael's inability to kill himself.

Personally I think that the Lost universe is not immutable but is instead self-correcting. Desmond could keep trying to save Charlie's life, but he eventually realized that the universe was bent on seeing Charlie dead. You can argue whether Desmond's flash-forwards were alternate realities or just visions, but I would argue that Desmond DID change events through foreknowledge of the future. The self-correcting universe theory gives you a lot more latitude to work with time travel, without stumbling over the obvious paradoxes of using knowledge gained in the future to affect previous events. As in, did the compass exist before Locke gave it to Richard in the 1950s? If so, did Richard already have the same compass, so now he has two of them?

- Steve

Posted by: jerkhoff | March 6, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and Anubis seems a lot like the smoke monster -- he is the guardian of the entrance to the afterlife. The smoke monster has been repeatedly described as a "protective device," although we now know that is a self-portrait -- this information came to the Losties through Rousseau who got it from her friend who had already been attacked/possessed by the smoke monster.

Does anyone remember when Locke first came face-to-face with the smoke monster and looked it in the eye? Do you think we'll ever find out exactly what happened in that scene?

Posted by: jerkhoff | March 6, 2009 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Continuing with NotDoc's idea, imagine an island of the ancient gods where powers of time travel and everlasting life exist, and then modern people start landing with powers of their own. Guns and technology. First the Black Rock, then the Americans, then Dharma realizes that through technology it can harness the ancient powers of the island and control them. Richard may be a god that was abandoned on the island. Jacob may be imprisoned by Richard or even Dharma. Then Dharma starts using computers, machinery, trained animals, etc, to control the islands powers. Richard cannot stop them alone. Jacob could but he is imprisoned. So Richard seeks out Ben to stop Dharma. He succeeds. The Others bring in people from the outside to protect the island. Most Dharma work stops, the polar bears and dolphins escape, training animals stops, other work stops except pushing the button every 108 minutes. Not sure that the fail-safe Des turned stopped anything. There is still a nuke buried somewhere on the island, and writers don't bury nukes unless they are going to go off in a future episode. That will be the end of the island, and the era of gods will end. Man will be on his own for the first time without godly protection. ... Maybe ...

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 6, 2009 1:09 PM | Report abuse

"Now I know this doesn't prove anything like the ring episode does, but it clearly seemed to me that Faraday deliberately changed the past -- and now he's thinking of doing it again with Charlotte."
Posted by: jerkhoff

Oh I like that idea. Des could have protected Charlie forever but Charlie decided he was destined to die and decided when it would happen. Dan is very broken up over Charlotte's death and then sees little Charlotte. I think you're right, he will work to protect her and maybe prevent her death, maybe by mind-tripping back to the freighter and keeping Charlotte off the frieghter or the island. Then Dan will have to spend the rest of his life protecting Charlotte from the universe self correcting. Poor Dan, since I don't think Charlotte cares as much for him as he does for her. Dan will be stuck protecting her forever. His own self imposed hell. Brilliant!

As for which egyptian god smokey is, I don't think its Anibis. But Apep was a snake who when you cut it into pieces reformed. It was in a stalemate battle with Ra for control. Also, Seth was in battle with Horace for control of Egypt. Horace controled the south, Seth the north. Seth eventually won the battle for control. Sorta like Richard and Horace's battle for control of the island, no?

Still, I don't see any strong links to what we see in Lost with Egyptian gods, just vague references, but too many to ignore. But since we are into this now, here is how Apep will eventually be destroyed accoring to Egyptian writings:
"Apep will first be speared, then sliced with red-hot knives so that every bone of his body has been separated, his head, legs and tail are cut off. His remains are then scorched, singed, and roasted, finally to be consumed by fire." A nuke would do that nicely. Maybe Richard knew what he was doing by holding onto that nuke.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 6, 2009 1:38 PM | Report abuse

I'm voting against the powers of the island having anything to do with Egyptian gods and here's why: the island has been skipping around the planet in time AND space all along according to Eloise, right? I think at one point it simply was in a time and location in which it sucked in some ancient Egyptians, just as it did the Black Rock and Oceanic flight 815. Those Egyptians, without the benefit of submarines and modern silence, had to settle down and build themselves a new society, including temples and hiroglyphics (sp!) and giant statues. Naturally, they would attempt to understand and define the phemomena of the island through their own beliefs, possibly as other chatters above have described. But I still content that they, Ben, Widmore, and all the others who think they understand the island are all off the mark.

Posted by: PQSully | March 6, 2009 2:21 PM | Report abuse

"I think at one point it simply was in a time and location in which it sucked in some ancient Egyptians, just as it did the Black Rock and Oceanic flight 815."
Posted by: PQSully

Okay, so we have dueling theories. NotDoc thinks the island spat out people into Tunisia who later formed the Egyptian empire. You think the island sucked people from the Egyptian empire in. Hmmm. I think Eloise said the island could move around in time AND space. If the island ever appeared in the Mediterranian Sea then that would allow your island sucks theory versus NotDoc's island spitting theory. Sounds like another beverage battle!

I can also see a war for control of the island in the past, say between Rome and Egypt, with the island being moved to the south pacific to get as far away as possible, only to be visited recently now that long range travel in the south pacific is possible. That would mean the Others have had about 2000 years of peace and quiet, until the Americans with jughead, then Dharma then the Lostees arrived. And Dharma provided a way for the Others, who were trapped on the island, to get to the real world for the first time.

Ok, its Friday afternoon. Time to stop thinking about Lost and start thinking about beer before my nose starts bleeding.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 6, 2009 3:00 PM | Report abuse

I can't get my head around all the god-stuff right now.

How do you guys KNOW so much ??

My question: why did Charlotte disappear? Seems like she could have just died without disappearing. Especially since the time flashes had finally ended (?). Maybe she's still alive ?

Posted by: camis | March 6, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

"My question: why did Charlotte disappear? "
Posted by: camis

I think it's as simple as she's dead, that only living creatures will travel in the flashes, plus the things they're directly touching. So even if Daniel was cradling Charlotte, unless he was skin to skin with her, she remains behind. At least that's what I 'spect.

Posted by: PQSully | March 6, 2009 3:31 PM | Report abuse

I just got a headache and finally figured out why. I was wondering how Richard got off the island in 1956 to see Locke being born. It was 1956, pre-Dharma I presume. No submarine. How did he get off the island to wherever Locke was born, then back?

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 6, 2009 3:34 PM | Report abuse

Can I please just say for the record that "the Others" are really gross hillbilly ignorant thugs at some point? Maybe left-over pirates or pirate children from the sailors of the Black Rock -- which is a stupid name for a ship anyway. So after the mass murder of the DI, there must have been some kind of enlightenment period for the Others who started living in the DI compound and using the DI resources and stations. But as with any society, there were still some big ugly thugs... why they were so hostile to the Oceanic survivors I do not understand. They have this nice little white-picket-fence-martha-stewart-bookclub life, but when the mood strikes them they like to dress up as dirty hilbillies, torment Rousseau, torture any wayward plane-crash survivors, and conveniently ignore Desmond -- who BTW lives in a Dharma station despite the fact that the Others have now taken over ALL of the OTHER Dharma stations?!?

The writers have A LOT to reconcile. I hope they are responsible about it and the finale doesn't end with it all being a dream in Richard Alpert's head.

Posted by: a68comeback | March 6, 2009 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Sully - right. so maybe I'm confused. I could end my comment right there, and probably should today.

I thought that last flash was "different" which I took to mean that it did not move them through time. That it was more like an earthquake that shook everything but left them in place, in time.
Did they move again? And she was already dead by then?


Posted by: camis | March 6, 2009 3:55 PM | Report abuse

Hey! Are you Sully the Pilot ?

Posted by: camis | March 6, 2009 4:15 PM | Report abuse

And if so... that plane never would have crashed in the first place and we would have a VERY different, if shorter, story on our hands.

I know personal stuff is uncool on these blogs, but I'm just saying.

And if I'm right about you being the pilot, everyone buys me some Pinot Grigio.

Posted by: camis | March 6, 2009 4:25 PM | Report abuse

correction: I've I'm WRONG about you being Sully the Pilot, everyone buys me some Pinot Grigio.

Posted by: camis | March 6, 2009 4:41 PM | Report abuse

my theory on charlotte's date of birth is that much like Aaron the time difference between island and the "real" world required an altered date of birth for her once she returned to England.

Posted by: J33Edwards | March 6, 2009 8:57 PM | Report abuse

I think there may be more to Amy's baby than we've seen.

Alpert insisted on taking the baby's father, a custom that also required future leaders of the group to kill their father and display the remains, as we saw when Ben killed his father, and Locke provoked Sawyer into killing Locke's truly evil father.

If this theory is correct, then Amy's son is a future leader of Alpert's group.

The time-travel concept almost ensures we'll see exactly what happened when Locke looked right into Smokey, and, I'm guessing at some point, some of the Losties watching Oceanic 815 break up over the island.

Something about Smokey, it seems to be a sentient.....security device(?), as the first time it ran into Eko it didn't attack, but killed him on their second encounter.

Agree with an earlier observation about the hydrogen bomb not being introduced unless it was going to explode at some point, although the time-travel concept would allow for someone to try and stop it from happening.

While Faraday claims that what's happened can't be changed, he still tried to disprove that theory by trying to protect Charlotte.

And if the island is what will bring Locke back to life, why wouldn't it do the same for Charlotte, or is the island's healing ability only possible in certain times, but not others?

Has it been explained yet why whoever turns the wheel can't come back to the island?

Because if it's a matter of custom, or honor, then there's nothing stopping Ben or Widmore from coming back.

But if returning is lethal to Ben or Widmore, then maybe the way around that problem is to be already dead to get back on the island, like Locke did.

Posted by: kingcranky | March 6, 2009 11:36 PM | Report abuse

Did Alpert take the baby's father? He took Paul's body, and Paul was Amy's husband at the time. But she gave birth three years later. The story implies that Horace is the father but there are so many "who's-yer-daddy" issues in Lost, maybe Horace isn't really the father. In any case, though, I don't think Paul was.

Posted by: camis | March 7, 2009 12:05 AM | Report abuse

Quoting Liz's quote from Doc Jensen:
"'The Lotus-Eaters', in which voyaging Odysseus and his crew discover an island community of peaceful, blissed-out people hooked on lotus flowers. Many of Odysseus' men get addicted to the narcotic plant themselves and lose their desire to go back home. Odysseus must resort to drastic measures to force his comrades to wake up and get back on point."

Watching the ep, I thought Sawyer in 1977 Dharma time looked way too happy -- blissful is the perfect word for his expression. Maybe seeing Kate was the splash of water in his face, the first step in coming down from his artificial high.

The Egyptian symbolism and talk about fueling the birth of that civilization made me very afraid that the smoke monster was guarding the Stargate. But, no, I can rest easy -- we've also had Christian symbolism, Dharma of course covering the major Eastern religions; I think I've seen Beowulf references, and the polar bear suggests the North, or Norse mythology (I know, no polar bears in Scandinavia). Does the wheel bear any resemblance to the Round Table? Maybe our heroes are taking all the journeys of the world's major theologies/mythologies.

Gotta give a shout out to last week's poster who drew the parallels between Lost and BSG. Got a big grin out of that one and spread it to many others who would appreciate it.


Posted by: argon412 | March 7, 2009 12:19 AM | Report abuse

Buddhism talks about "turning the wheel of Dharma"

Posted by: camis | March 7, 2009 12:33 AM | Report abuse

I knew it was too good to be true that in the first five or so episodes this season so many things were being revealed so quickly. The last two episodes have been payback. (And you know what they say about payback!) In the last two weeks we have all kinds of new characters, old characters in inscrutable new situations, and new plot lines evoking all kinds of new questions. I currently have so many questions and so few clues.

Here's what intrigues me the most, tho, right now: for the first time we saw that giant (presumably Egyptian-style) statue in its entirety - but only from the back. I want to see its face. I am no Egyptologist, so I have no idea which Egyption god it might be modeled after, but will it have a face that looks like Locke? Like Widmore? Like Alpert? Like Christian Shepherd? Or even like an adult Aaron? Seeing the face of that statue is my current grail quest. (But like so many red herrings in _Lost_, it may turn out to be a fruitless quest.)

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 7, 2009 11:45 AM | Report abuse

a68comeback - That was a GREAT summary! Send more!

(I'm still laughing about your observation that Black Rock is a stupid name for a ship - that is so true, but I hadn't noticed)

Posted by: camis | March 7, 2009 3:14 PM | Report abuse

MrMerkin - exactly. i'm trying not to get my hopes up either, as i suspect we will find out that the face has been smashed to bits and then everyone on the island will have a different story about what the face used to look like, what the statue represents. So far, I'm just getting Easter Island vibes. And that's enough for me for now!

Posted by: camis | March 7, 2009 5:05 PM | Report abuse

"Hey! Are you Sully the Pilot ?
And if so... that plane never would have crashed in the first place and we would have a VERY different, if shorter, story on our hands.
I know personal stuff is uncool on these blogs, but I'm just saying.
And if I'm right about you being the pilot, everyone buys me some Pinot Grigio."
Posted by: camis

Why... I have no id--... How could I possibly... No comment.

Posted by: PQSully | March 9, 2009 7:43 AM | Report abuse

"my theory on charlotte's date of birth is that much like Aaron the time difference between island and the "real" world required an altered date of birth for her once she returned to England."
Posted by: J33Edwards

Well, that assumes time cannot be altered. Both Ben and Locke left the island and ended up in the future by a couple of years. Locke was talking to a 17 year old Widmore then 4 days later talking to a 60+ year old Widmore. Nothing time-wise is out of the question...

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 9, 2009 8:13 AM | Report abuse

Jumping into the ancient Greek/Egyptian broo-ha-ha going on: If the island can jump around in time and SPACE, as suggested by many above then the island could indeed be the remains of Ancient Atlantis. Many believe that the ancient Atlantis legend got its geneis when what is now the present-day Greek island of Santorinai/Thera blew up in 1672 BC. When that happened the major civilization of its time, the Mycenean era, came to an end. The island of Thera today has fabulouos ruins remaining of that civilization. The center of that civilization was on the island of Crete just a ways south of Thera. The Mycenean civilization was heavily influenced by the more ancient civilization of Egypt further to its south. So where am I going with this? What if the volcanic explosion of ancient Thera, which left a nice island sized lagoon in the middle of present day Santorini/Thera, simply tranposed the remnants of the island into the South Pacific, coincidentally half way around he world? There could be something then to the Greek God/Ancient Egypt idea after all. Except rather than ancient Gods at war, its really the descendants (or the survivors) of the ancient Mycenean/Egyptian race.

Posted by: dojemc | March 9, 2009 8:27 AM | Report abuse

"There could be something then to the Greek God/Ancient Egypt idea after all. Except rather than ancient Gods at war, its really the descendants (or the survivors) of the ancient Mycenean/Egyptian race."
Posted by: dojemc

A couple of issues:
-It does not explain Alpert's old age and not aging.
-Why would the Mycenean's have built the donkey wheel? Probably not to move the island. It would have been much easier to move people off the island if they knew it was about to blow.
-Myceneans would look Greek. Ellie does not look Greek and even Alpert is on the edge.
-I think they spoke Greek in Mycenea, not Latin, and wrote in "Linear B", not hygroglyphs.

For Latin to be the language of the Others and hyroglyphs the written language, it has to be Egyptian and Roman, or pre-Roman culture. But so far everyone looks very northern European. Maybe bad casting?

One other thing. Dharma seems to have adopted the Egyptian language as evidenced by the hyroglyphs on the doors and walls, including the countdown clock, when it went red after not pushing the button. These were not ancient writings. So, who in Dharma decided hyroglyphs would be the written language of Dharma? It might be that you write instructions for what people can understand or will be able to understand in the future. The Government puts pictographs where nuclear waste will be buried so people 10,000 years from now can understand it. Maybe Dharma wrote instructions for the future inhabitants of the island, people who lived 4000 years ago.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 9, 2009 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Good questions Bevjims. Actually, I may have misnamed the ancient civilization that was destroyed when Thera blew up. It may actually have been the Minoan civilization whose capital was at Knossos on Crete at the time There blew. They were a pre-Greek civilization that was heavily influenced by the Egyptians. Their artwork and building styles were very heavily Egyptian in orientation. This civilization came to an end when There blew (it may be the genesis of the Atlantis story as well as the genesis of the 40-day biblical flood). After the decline of the Minoans came the Mycenaeans who were primarily located on the Peleoponnese on main-land Greece. Then came a wave of northern invaders known as the Ionians and Dorians (I don't recall the order of invasion). It was these groups who were the true first Greeks, I believe, and had the first Greek language etc though the ancient Greek language of Homeric times is radically different than modern day Greek. They did use an early version of our current day alphabet though. This is a long-winded way of stating that I would not be surprised if the Minoans (and maybe even the Mycenaeans) may have used a form of Linear B alphabet.

Re the inconsistencies in the storyline, well, it is only a story so I wouldn't expect all the others to really look like Egyptians or Minoans.

Posted by: dojemc | March 9, 2009 1:14 PM | Report abuse

I've been dying to know for 4 years how Hurly's lottery numbers matched the numbers for that punch-clock that rocked my world back in season 1

Posted by: dmls2000 | March 9, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

re casting: As an English writer once said to me: You don't expect Hamlet to be played by a Dane every time.

Posted by: camis | March 9, 2009 3:34 PM | Report abuse

It just occurred to me: when Ms. Hawking explains to Jack, Sun, Desmond, and Ben the origins of the Looking Glass LA Dahrma station, she said that the idea of how to locate the island was proposed by a "very smart man", who focused on predicting where the island would be in the future with high probability. This smart man derived several "equations". So, could it be that the smart man is Horace, a mathematician?

Posted by: for33 | March 9, 2009 5:38 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, in the last post I meant the "lampost" LA Dahrma station, not the "looking glass". I apologize.

Posted by: for33 | March 9, 2009 5:40 PM | Report abuse

Hmmm, some people are saying Faraday is the smart man, but it could have been Horace I guess. It could also have been Marvin Candle. Come to think of it, not that many "smart" people on this show. You'd think if someone discovered an island that moves through time and has special properties that it would be flooded with top NASA engineers and the entire faculty of MIT. Yet all we see is Faraday and Candle and maybe Horace, and the rest really don't inspire much in the way of smarts but are really good at handling guns. Maybe after finding this island the "smart man" put in a call to NASA but misread the phone book and got the NRA instead?

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 9, 2009 10:45 PM | Report abuse

bevjims1 wrote:
"Maybe after finding this island the 'smart man' put in a call to NASA but misread the phone book and got the NRA instead?"

Great line!!!

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 10, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

The guns - No kidding! They ALL know how to use guns. (maybe I'm the only human being who doesn't know how...)

sully - don't worry, your secret, whatever it is, is safe with me.

Posted by: camis | March 10, 2009 10:47 PM | Report abuse

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