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Posted at 11:15 AM ET, 03/26/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analysis: 'He's Our You'

By Liz Kelly
Lost

In which Jen Chaney and I write volumes in an attempt to make sense of yet another action-packed episode of our favorite show, "Lost." But what do we know? Join us at 3 p.m. ET to chat live about your pet theories.


It's all fun and games for Sawyer (Josh Holloway) and Sayid (Naveen Andrews) until someone gets drugged and lashed to a tree. (ABC)

Liz: If you haven't watched last night's episode yet, then please avert your eyes starting now.

Still with us? Good, then we can assume that you, too, nearly ruined your couch upholstery at the moment in last night's show when Sayid matter of factly gunned down young Ben Linus, the once and future sociopath.

But before we get too far down the wormhole of plotting what the future (present?) looks like if Ben was killed at "Wizards of Waverly Place" age, let's consider -- is he really dead? My guess is no. It would deprive the show of one of its best characters and, well, mess with our heads way too much.

Jen, what do you think?

Jen: I am inclined to think he isn't dead either, for the reasons you state. I also think shooting him is a colossal error on Sayid's part. And -- watch as Jen teeters and totters on spoiler tightrope -- I believe another character may attempt to save Lil' Ben in the near future.

Much more after the jump...

Jen: I do have to ask an important question, though: Upon seeing Ben in a hooded sweatshirt after he apparently caused a fire, am I the only one who thought: Man, that kid is Donnie Darko? I mean, he does hang around with rabbits and go through wormholes.

Liz: If he starts laughing to himself maniacally and listening to '80s new wave, I'll be worried.

Jen: I can so hear Michael Emerson saying, "The killing moon has come too soon."


Young Ben Linus (Sterling Beaumon). (ABC)

Liz: This may come as a shock to you, but I actually felt sorry for Lil' Ben. No kid deserves to have his chicken-salad sandwiches smashed against the wall by a butthead of a father. But it does certainly help explain why he's such a twisted sick little puppy.

And Sayid may have had a similar revelation. Although Sayid ultimately decided his purpose in returning to the island was to kill Ben, it wasn't necessarily because he wanted to save the world from the havoc wreaked by Ben in a possible future, but to save Ben from a fate like Sayid's own -- growing up a broken man, twisted by one's father and only good at one thing: destruction.

Too bad Sayid couldn't go the positive route and just start a support group.

Jen: Well, all of this Ben/Sayid parallelism is really important. I'm going to spew on about this for a few graphs, so bear with me. Have a chicken salad sandwich, if you like. I understand that helps to pass the time.

First, just to comment on what you said: I am not sure I agree that Sayid is trying to save Ben from himself. I think he genuinely loathes B to the L (the adult version) and he wants to eliminate the guy, period, so Sayid circa 2007 won't have to kill Russian guys, and all sorts of other bad stuff doesn't go down.

But bigger picture here. Sayid has dropped out of the sky (literally) onto the island in 1977, not unlike the way Ben dropped out of the sky onto the island in 2004. Sayid was taken prisoner and dubbed "hostile." So was Ben. Arguments about whether or not to kill Sayid ensued, just as they did about Ben. Obviously we all know Sayid is not a bad guy, he's a man who has done very bad things in his life but feels remorse about them. To put it in "Pulp Fiction" parlance, he's trying real hard to be the shepherd.

We have all assumed that Ben is a bad guy -- yeah, brace yourself, we're getting back to this again. And up to this point, it's a fair assumption since there is a key difference between him and Sayid -- Ben has yet to show real remorse for any of the murders he has committed. But I think throughout the entire series, the "Lost" writers have been coming back to this theme of "others," and how we make assumptions about who is good and bad and what their motivations are, based solely on our own perspectives. As we can see with what the Dharma-ites tried to do to Sayid, that is not always fair. Is it fair to Ben? We'll see. But I think all of this says something important about human nature and our propensity to judge when, often, we have no basis for doing so.

Liz: I understand that the end can sometimes justify the means and that Ben is using every tool at his disposal in order to accomplish his ends. Is that end good? We just don't know. I have waffled. I am a flip-flopper. But I think a possibility to consider is that one can start out with the noblest of intentions and tell oneself that sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good -- the truth, people's lives, ideals -- little things like that. But somewhere along the way, the means can obscure the end -- much like my muddled writing is obscuring my point. Which is: Ben may have started out with good intentions but he's become twisted along the way, unable to remain untainted by his continued justification for dissembling, manipulation and murder.

Tonight we had a prime example of that when Ben suggested to Sayid that John Locke had been murdered by someone allied with Widmore. He is utterly clouded by his own belief that he -- Ben -- is the only one who can save the day. And that isn't to say that Ben can't somehow redeem himself at some future (past?) point in the storyline -- much like Darth Vader renouncing the Dark Side as he died -- but he's just not there yet.

Should we move on?

Jen: Sure, but not without mentioning "A Separate Reality" first, right? I have not read said book by Carlos Castaneda, but I think that choice on Ben's part is significant for a couple of key reasons.

One: The book is supposed to be non-fiction, but many question that and think it's really fiction. No surprise, then, that a preteen Ben would be attracted to such a text. He learned at a young age that it can be very useful to pass off a narrative as the truth when it actually isn't.

Two: The story focuses on Castaneda's apprenticeship with a shaman/sorcerer-type figure, who helped him achieve some sort of enlightenment. Lil' Ben is desperately seeking some kind of father figure, since his Dad is Uncle Rico with an anger management problem. I would have to assume the person/entity who plays that role for him winds up being Jacob.

Liz: I like the way you think.

Jen: So now which way to go? Straight to Sawyer?

Liz: I think that makes sense since he also seemed to be having a bit of an identity crisis. Or, actually, not much of a crisis at all. As far as I can tell, Sawyer's made his decision. He's desperate to keep what he's got -- he as much as told Sayid that tonight. That he spent three years building what he has and didn't want to risk it all for Sayid. I was particularly surprised to see him going along with Sayid's interrogation by Oldham (a nice turn by William Sanderson, by the way, who folks may remember from HBO's "Deadwood" and "True Blood").

Jen: Right, and meekly raising his hand to go along with the group in their pro-death stance in re: to Sayid. He is clearly conflicted, though, otherwise he would not have attempted to let Sayid go.

Liz: Conflicted, but not willing to take any personal risks in order to save Sayid. He won't vouch for him and when he thinks Sayid has resigned himself to being killed by the Dharmas, he just walks away. That's not the Sawyer we know and love. The man has been lulled into complacency. Although based on the previews of next week's episode (and spoiler critics can hardly argue with us discussing plot points raised in broadcast promos), it looks like suspicion ends up falling on at least some of the Losties -- Jack and Kate, to be specific. Will Sawyer be as passive about Kate's safety, I wonder, as he is about Sayid's?

This might be a good point to mention, too, tonight's candidates for quote of the week since both involve Sayid and Sawyer.

Jen: Fair enough. I do have a point to make about Sawyer, but we can get to that momentarily, after this quote break.

Liz: The candidates:

1. "A 12-year-old Ben Linus just brought me a chicken sandwich. How do you think I'm doing?"

Jen: That's the winner as far as I am concerned. I burst out laughing when Sayid said that.

Liz: Agreed, though I also admired the subtle absurdity of this line, delivered by Sawyer to Sayid after the Dharma death vote:

2. "Even the new mom wants you dead."

Jen: That one was funny, too. I also have a third candidate, courtesy of Hurley:

3. "I thought it was kinda obvious. Who couldn't see that coming?" -- Hurley on the Sawyer/Juliet coupling.

They're all rock-solid. But the first one is most likely to make me spit out my McCutcheon's, even if it did cost 120 freaking dollars.

Liz: Good times. We can put this to a vote in the 3 p.m. chat. But let's get to your point about Sawyer.

Jen: Sawyer has moved into an authoritative role on the island. And we've seen time and time again that once people become leaders, their judgment starts to falter under the pressure. They're supposed to be thinking for the good of the group, and they clearly want to. But they also are motivated by selfishness as well. This happened with Jack and Ben and now it's happening with Sawyer. I swear, an ambitious sociology student could write a hell of a thesis about what "Lost" says about group dynamics.

Liz: Your point about thinking for "the good of the group" is an interesting one, though -- because Sawyer is a man caught between two groups. He's got to decide at some point: Is he a Lostie or a Dharma?

Jen: Ah, very true. I was just thinking of Dharma, because he clearly considers them his people now. But yes, his loyalty has to be torn.

Liz: I think that may become more pronounced in future episodes. But getting back to Hurley's Juliet/Sawyer quote -- how is it possible that Kate would not have known they were shacking up? That's a little bit hard to swallow. Did she really think Sawyer and Juliet lived together in their cozy Dharma cottage for three years and remained completely platonic? Puh-leeze.

Jen: She didn't know they lived together. She only saw Sawyer on the porch. And Jack didn't tell her Juliet was there when he visited Sawyer. Come on, Liz. Can't you believe Kate would be out to lunch?

Liz: She seems to be assigned to barracks next door to Sawyer's casa. How could she have missed them going in and out? They've been on island for a couple of days now. But sometimes we're blind to things we don't want to see. Which brings us to another question: Kate said she only knows why she returned to the island. Was it for Sawyer, do you think?

Jen: No. I think it has to do with Aaron, particularly since we should be learning more about what happened to the little tyke in an upcoming episode that perhaps -- not that I'm spoiling or anything -- airs next week.

Liz: WAIT!

Jen: WHAT?

Liz: Do you mean to tell me an episode of "Lost" will air next Wednesday at 9 p.m. ET? How could you? Ruiner!

Jen: You know what else? Tomorrow's Friday! And the sun will set later today!

Liz: I'm so disillusioned. Anyhow, I'm having some kind of "Lost" history lapse, but can you please explain Radzinsky's comment about asking Ann Arbor?

Jen: I want to discuss Ann Arbor. I do. But in light of your queries about Kate's cluelessness, I have another "what the?" sort of question.

Liz: Is it about how Kate totally didn't use the dipping sauce for her waffles?

Jen: When Sayid asked Sawyer who Oldham was, and Sawyer replied, "He's our you" (another great line, BTW), why didn't Horace or Phil hear him? They were standing, like, six inches from Sawyer and Sayid. Seems like they would have noticed that moment.

Liz: Well, as Doc Jensen pointed out in yesterday's pre-game analysis, the showrunners aren't perfect. They sometimes fumble. His example was Charlotte's age not meshing with the little red-haired girl we saw on island. Perhaps this is another instance. (Something that LindeCuse apparently copped to goofing up.)

Jen: Clearly. It's not such a big deal, it just bothers me when characters speak to each other in asides and no one else seems to notice. I say this as someone who always overhears and butts her way into other people's conversations.

But enough about that. Let's go to the University of Michigan! You asked a very good question about Radzinsky's suggestion that they might need to call Ann Arbor. He mentioned that because the founders of the Dharma Initiative were based at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. At least, allegedly.

Which raises the question: how in touch were Dharma people with their associates at U of M? Did the Ann Arbor people notice something was amiss after the purge?

Liz: We know that a drop of Dharma supplies reached the island as late as 2004. Why would they send supplies if they assumed their field crew was dead?

Jen: Well, who knows when those drops were coming from, though. Time on the island ain't exactly in synch with time off the island. Still, some mysteries there need to be resolved.

Liz: True, true. So we finally got some clarification on why Sayid was handcuffed when he arrived for the Ajira Airways flight. He was being led to Guam by Boba Fett, aka Ilana.

Jen: Boba Fett in go-go boots.

Liz: Right -- but that answer only raised another question: Who is Ilana working for? My money's on Widmore. After all, she mentioned that she was rounding him up because of his murder of Peter Avelino -- who we have to assume is one of the Widmore associates on Ben's death list. What say you?

Jen: I am on the fence, leaning toward Widmore. The theory being that Widmore -- who is all about changing the rules -- knows he can change them, get Sayid back to '77 and have him off Lil' Ben. But I wasn't totally convinced Ilana wasn't working for Ben. She acted like she didn't know his name, but she wasn't terribly persuasive.

Liz: No -- she just answered Sayid's question with a question: "Who would work for somebody like that?"

Jen: And she was all smirky when she said it.

Well, we've covered a lot of ground here. So I say we close out this bad boy with an exciting round of... Deja Vu-Apalooza! Many things happened last night that echoed previous episodes, so I thought maybe we should list some of them. In addition to Sayid as hostage/Ben as hostage parallels, we had:

1. A VW bus almost taking out some Others, just as it did when Hurley drove it onto the island at the end of season three.

2. A fire in the barracks, like the one that prompted Sawyer to save Claire last season.

3. Juliet making a comment about she and Sawyer "playing house," which echoed Kate's contention from last season that Sawyer only wanted both of them to stay on the island so they could "play house." (Guess Juliet actually likes that little game with Sawyer.)

4. And more bad parenting, courtesy of Roger Linus. Even cowboys -- and mini-Ben Linuses -- have daddy issues. I am sure there are more worth mentioning. Know when you can mention 'em? During our chat at 3 p.m. ET!

Liz: And one more interesting tidbit we can take up at 3 p.m. -- according to Doc Jensen, the shadowy blond seen in last week's episode at the wrecked Dharma compound (behind Christian Shepherd) was apparently only visible on the HD broadcast and Doc makes it pretty clear that this was probably a crew member who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Good thing Christian Bale wasn't guest-starring.)

----

Next Week on "Lost: "Whatever Happened, Happened" - Kate goes to extreme measures to save Ben's life when Jack refuses to help. Meanwhile, Kate begins to tell the truth about the lie in order to protect Aaron.

By Liz Kelly  | March 26, 2009; 11:15 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

Sayid killed Harry Potter!

Posted by: buffysummers | March 26, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

sci fi trivia and maybe there's a lost connection i just can't think of it: the guy playing oldham was JF Sebastian in BLADE RUNNER!!!

Posted by: itsnotabear | March 26, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

For those concerned about the age disparity problem w/ Charlotte, see:

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/03/lost-exclusive.html

In Episode #402 Ben suggests Charlotte was born in 1979, yet later plot events reveal she existed in 1974. According to this URL for _Entertainment Weekly_, Lindelof & Cuse originally blamed Rebecca Mader, the actress who plays Charlotte, for altering the script. The article goes on to relate that after Mader protested on her Facebook page, L&C then ‘fessed up and said they “misremembered” Mader’s involvement and took responsibility for the continuity error. (Misremembered? Sounds like L&C have been studying diction under Mrs. Malaprop at the Geo. W. Bush School.) Word choice aside, hopefully now the Charlotte age discrepancy is settled and now Mader & L&C can exchange a mutual “namaste.” Or maybe now the Charlotte age discrepancy is settled and now we know why Charlotte S. Lewis was killed off, while Miles (I’ve-added-nothing-to-this-show-yet) Straume is still alive.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 26, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

I think the shooting of young Ben Linus has to partially explain the condition of Dharmaville that present-time Sun and Lapidus encountered. Could it be that Ben was either not around to "purge" the Dharma folk or that being shot by who he thought was a "hostile" made him rethink his allegencies if he in fact survived the shooting?

Posted by: mastroj | March 26, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

My favorite line (from Ben): "Locke's dead! I think he's been murdered!"

Posted by: csteiger | March 26, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

Another option for best quote of the night:

“Three years with no burning buses. Y’all are back for one day….”

Posted by: caltexona | March 26, 2009 11:44 AM | Report abuse

Did Ben have any clue, when he brought Sayid back to the island, what Sayid would do? Did Ben need Sayid to shoot him - is Sayid Ben's Judas?

Posted by: mat00 | March 26, 2009 11:49 AM | Report abuse

No mention of the befuddling of the timeline?? Killing young Ben could change a whole host of things! And also, was the flaming VW bus a different death for Roger Linus? Didn't Ben sit there with him while he died in the purge? But yet last night, when Sayid said something about Ben's father, after the bus crash, Ben said "Yeah...I hatED him." Past tense. Was he in the flaming VW, now dead much earlier than he should have been?

Posted by: DaveB2 | March 26, 2009 11:50 AM | Report abuse

My favorite line of the night was "Take your lunch, Phil." And then again, "TAKE YOUR LUNCH, PHIL." Ha.

Posted by: RockStar | March 26, 2009 11:51 AM | Report abuse

I just have to say for the record that I totally called Sayid shooting Ben last week. I KNEW it! I was thinking that this might be "The Incident," but I know that (Possible spoiler) the season finale will be called the Incident.

I wonder what Sayid will do now?

And I loved the scene where he was on the truth syrum. It reminded me of True Lies - "I'm going to kill you soon."

Next wednesday is so far away!!

Posted by: eet7e | March 26, 2009 11:52 AM | Report abuse

I'm sure Li'l Ben will live. I'm a firm believer in the "whatever happened, happened" school of time travel theory, so he has to live.

I loved the parallels betweeen Sayid and Ben in this episode, the way Sayid is mirroring Ben's captivity in the hatch in season 2.

Posted by: moonwatcher13 | March 26, 2009 11:55 AM | Report abuse

I'm with caltexona, the burning bus line was the best of the night.

Posted by: kolbkl | March 26, 2009 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Ben's not dead. That would toss the whole "what happened has already happened" thing. I strongly suspect they're going a different way: the Losties inadvertently created the very thing that they fear (and that may ultimately destroy them).

I disagree with: "Lil' Ben is desperately seeking some kind of father figure, since his Dad is Uncle Rico with an anger management problem. I would have to assume the person/entity who plays that role for him winds up being Jacob."

First part is dead-on: Ben wants a father figure. But the person he looked to for that was Sayid (who he believed to be an Other there to follow up on Eyeliner Man's promise to help him escape). And Sayid betrayed him. It wasn't Ben's dad who turned him bad; it was Sayid.

I think it's the ultimate answer to the "do the ends justify the means" dilemma the writers have grappled with since, I dunno, the beginning. Sayid ultimately decides that the need to rid the world of an evil man justifies sacrificing an innocent boy who trusts him. But, in a perfect example of the law of unintended consequences, Sayid's decision instead creates Ben in his own image: someone who is willing to sacrifice anyone, or anything, for whatever he considers to be the "greater good."

I think Jen is dead-bang right about the "shaman" bit. But the "shaman" is Sayid (could Ben handing the book to Sayid be more symbolic?). And it's a bad, bad path that he inadvertently sends L'il Ben down.

Posted by: laura33 | March 26, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

If Lil' Ben is not dead, I will be a little miffed since one would think a professional assasin would be able to off an unspecting child from a few feet away.

Posted by: Dougmacintyre | March 26, 2009 12:04 PM | Report abuse

I have a hard time believing Sayid, the extremely competent and capable killer who's just decided his whole purpose in life is to kill Ben before he can grow up into an evil sociopath, did not take an extra couple seconds to put a bullet or two in his brain, to be SURE.

I guess I will just tell myself the island wouldn't let him do it. But I still don't believe it.

Posted by: emfzlx | March 26, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

If Li'l Ben is a goner, then Sun & Jin are going to find it difficult to reunite, being on different time streams. Somebody took a wrong exit on the temporal superhighway.

DaveB2 is right, Ben said "I hatED him."

But I'm betting Li'l Ben survives. Wait and see.

Posted by: csteiger | March 26, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

I heard Ben say "I hate it here" not "I hated him."

Posted by: emfzlx | March 26, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

I thought it was interesting that their version of Sayid was, in fact, not at all like Sayid. His methods involve violence and torture, while Oldham's is a sugar cube with truth serum that makes you really happy (and talkative). That says something about the Dharma Initiative -- not that they're actually good and utopian, but that they do like to think of themselves that way. I think just adds to the complexity of Dharma -- it clearly has a dark side, but sometimes it just doesn't seem that dark.

Posted by: Janine1 | March 26, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

No way is Ben dead! Actually, this will explain why he has such an obsession with Juliet...she is the one that saves his life as a child, thus causing the nightengale effect. Didn't the therpist say to Juliet, 'You look just like her!' Well, because she is her!

Posted by: authorofpoetry | March 26, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Call me hopeful, but I really thought Sayid was going to save young Ben from himself, not off him. Agreed, although Sayid is a pro and does not miss a mark, not so confinced Ben is dead. Can't wait to see this play out.

I really liked the use of flashbacks to tie Sayid's story together and to show yet again how manipulative Big Ben is.

Posted by: VAjyd | March 26, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Of course little Ben isn't dead. We already knew he grew up into an evil adult, and what HAS happened WILL happen. My guess is that his almost-death at the hands of somebody they assume is a "Hostile" will trigger a showdown between the Dharma Initiative and the real "Hostiles", leading to the incident they keep referring to. You can't escape fate. Of course Ben already knows all this, and has known it all along, because it DID happen and he remembers it. It's also why Ben had to keep the Oceanic Six safe, and why ALL of them had to return to the island: because at some point in the past, they all had a role in what happened. If by some chance they didn't all return, THAT would have had catastrophic consequences.

A more interesting question for me is when the Losties will realize that little Ben is going to remember them when he grows up, and what they will do when they do realize that.

Posted by: MrDarwin | March 26, 2009 12:28 PM | Report abuse

I'm actually really interested in how the leadership role that Saywer has taken on, and the sacrifices he has to make for the good of the group (sacrifising Sayid to keep the other losties safe) wil effect his relationship with Jack. Will they suddenly get along as Saywer comes to understand some of the motivation behind Jack's actions that he didn't agree with? Will the become buddy buddy because they are the only two people who understand the other.

Posted by: mcleve | March 26, 2009 12:31 PM | Report abuse

This ep had a few good lines but overall I was bored to tears.

Posted by: susannajoy | March 26, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

McDarwin - Nice post. I agree with your last paragraph. The only way the Losties could exact any sort of revenge (assuming history cannot change) would be in the future, or present if they ever get back. It sounded much clearer in my head than it reads!

Posted by: authorofpoetry | March 26, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

did anyone walk away from the opening scene of last night's episode wondering, for the first time, whether sayid was jacob? granted, the shooting (killing?) at the end puts it into doubt, but think of the similarities to the biblical story. Jacob and Esau were brothers (twins) and jacob, by a form of deceit, stole his brother's birthright, and because of that, became the man who he was (this is very general, sunday school was a while ago). sayid, on the other hand, while not necessarily through trickery, stole the birthright his father expected to give to his older brother. because of that, sayid was put on a particular path and his brother was likely forgotten about. thoughts?

Posted by: wormsparkly | March 26, 2009 12:40 PM | Report abuse

I think authorofpoetry may have it right, Juliet saves lil'Ben and Ben falls in love.

Either that or lil'Ben really dies but Marvin Candle tries an experiment, like the one with the rabbit with the number painted on it, to bring lil'Ben back from the past, alive. If that happens it may be how Ben gets his powers to know the future.

I did find it unusual when Juliet talked to Sawyer about "playing house", unless she felt Sawyer had no feelings for her, but from previous episiodes it seemed that Sawyer really did love Juliet, so her question seemed to come out of the blue. I can see her worrying about Kate's intentions but if she was in love with Sawyer and believed he was in love with her, that question made little sense, so either they've been just playing house or something else makes Juliet feel Sawyer does not care for her.

And it had to be Ben that tipped off the bounty hunter. He was not surprised when he saw Sayid on the plane in handcuffs. And since Ben knows the past and future he knows that Sayid shooting him would not change anything. What's happened has happened and cannot be changed. lil'Ben will live one way or the other.

One other thought. The reason Sun and Ben did not flash-off the plane to the island in 1977 was because they already existed on the island in 1977. That would likely mean that Candle's baby is Sun.

And did no one find it strange that Sayid hit Jin? Sayid is definitely rogue now, not trusting anyone. I'm worried for Sayid. I think his purpose in the story is fulfilled and does not have a future.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 26, 2009 12:45 PM | Report abuse

i would just like to comment that the writers do a good job of teasing everyone along... i knew the episode was called "he's our you" but thought that it would go in a totally different direction... i didn't know it was a sayid focused episode until yesterday afternoon... i thought it totally would go in a locke/aaron/ben/richard alpert direction.... fooled me... makes me wonder about the future episodes

Posted by: tjkass | March 26, 2009 12:45 PM | Report abuse

1. My feeling is that Ben is Locke-dead or Mikhail-dead, not dead-dead. Of course, given last week's change in the look of the barracks (it looked like the Hostiles/Others had never been there), perhaps he is dead-dead and history has been changed.

2. If young gentle Ben is only Locke-dead, then perhaps now is when he meets Jacob for the first time??

3. Of course, Ben assumes that Sayid is a Hostile, so wouldn't Sayid shooting him turn him against the Hostiles and not want to join them?

4. As for Sayid, presumably he is off to join the Hostiles, or going into hiding like Rousseau. If he joins the Hostiles, is Sayid the one who ordered the Purge?
Is Sayid Jacob?

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 26, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

MrDarwin: Will everything that HAS happened happen (again?) exactly though? For example, perhaps if Desmond had (somehow!) saved the man in the red shoes from the London scaffolding, course correction would have perhaps instead fed him under a bus a short while later. Same outcome for the fashion-challenged Londoner (i.e., death), but certainly not exactly the same sequence of events. So, SOME things can clearly change.

For example, rumor has it that Sun and Frank are in a time-place where the Dharm-ites are still purged, but not necessarily in the same way. How much is different?

If you’re special like Desmond, you can remember a time-jumping visitor (i.e., Faraday), but you only get this memory when you reach the same point in the visitor’s timeline when he made the visit (in the Faraday case, Desmond had to wait until >2005). If Ben is Desmond-like special, then would he only ‘remember’ the 1974 Losties (i.e., Sawyer and co) after Locke turns the Donkey wheel? If he’s not special, then perhaps he does not remember them at all from childhood… ever (or if he’s eyeliner-special, then perhaps he remembers everything).

Posted by: PatAbroad | March 26, 2009 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Sayid was not trying to kill Ben. The episode opened with Sayid chasing down a man in Russia, shooting him three times from a distance and then shooting him several more times at point blank range. In other words, Sayid knows how to kill people. If Sayid wanted to kill Ben, he would not have shot him in the stomach. And he would not have shot him only once.
Ben won't die. And it will not be Juliet that saves Ben, it will be Jack.

Posted by: GlennSG | March 26, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

bevjims1: perhaps Sayid hit Jin because Jin showed his loyalty was to Dharma-Sawyer (by calling LaFleur) and not the Losties? And who’d trust a no-good conman like Sawyer who let Sayid be tortured just because he wanted to keep his cushy (creepy) Dharma life?

Perhaps Sun is Candle’s baby. But wasn’t Miles also on the island previously? Didn’t Miles get his time-traveling nosebleeds shortly after Charlotte?

Posted by: PatAbroad | March 26, 2009 1:04 PM | Report abuse

It will be the Island/Jacob who saves Ben, not Juliet or Jack. That is why, years later, he is surprised that he has a deadly tumor -- he was already saved from death by the Island once before.

Besides, not dying when fatally shot is likely to be a sign to Richard that Ben is special and someone who should be their leader.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 26, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Great background show with a terrific gasp-inducing conclusion. But I agree that Lil' Ben is not going to be dead. Just like Locke didn't die when shot by Ben and Michael couldn't kill himself. It's not time for Ben to go. I suspect next week we'll see why Ben doesn't die. The title of next week's show, "Whatever happened, happened" is the major clue. We know Ben doesn't die because he lives in the future (unless they are going down the alternate time line theory). Spoiler alert: we also know he lives because the actor playing Lil Ben is supposed to be in a 4-show arc. This was only show 2. Of course, we could only be seeing him lying dead on the ground for the next two shows : - )

Posted by: dojemc | March 26, 2009 1:10 PM | Report abuse

I can't believe people are even questioning if Sayid killed lil Ben or not. Not going to happen...at best we can speculate how he survives.

Did you notice that the gun shot wound on lil Ben didn't appear to bleed? Does anyone remember if Ben had a scar on his chest in previous episodes.

Posted by: pcvhawley | March 26, 2009 1:13 PM | Report abuse

bevjims1 and PatAbroad:
i think the reason sayid hit jin was so he could get jin's gun, with which to shoot ben.

Posted by: whymithinkinboutthis | March 26, 2009 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Wow, I feel like I am really not on the same page with everyone commenting here, including Liz and Jen. I really thought that last night was about not trusting what ANYONE said. I got the feeling from the hat-wearing Ben in the trench coat that those guys he had Sayid kill were actually not working for Widmore or related to any of this. It was just Ben controlling Sayid to 1.) get back at him for shooting him as a child or 2.) ensuring Sayid ends up back on the island in 1977. Everyone was lying last night and nobody was being honest about anything.

Young Ben is not dead. He's going to stagger to his feet and wander back to the compound because the island is "not finished" with him yet. That is why he worked so obsessively to get Juliet to come to, and stay at, the island (and meet the Losties). She needs to save him-as-a-child when Jack refuses to help. And just because the island isn't done with him doesn't mean that Ben not being dead will mean everything happens the same way moving forward from there... Maybe now the purge won't happen at all because young Ben will not trust or join the hostiles (given Sayid "the hostile" shot him). So rather than turning to the hostiles, he'll be a born-again Dharmite. There may even be a touching moment when his Uncle Rico dad rushes to young Ben's bedside to ask for forgiveness and something like, "If you pull through this surgery, little buddy, I promise I'll take you fishing and we can have a picnic -- complete with chicken salad sandwishes! I love you so much!!"

The best line of the night was missed by everyone! "I'll talk to Juliet." Uttered by Kate. Because Kate and Juliet were always such good friends in the past??

Posted by: a68comeback | March 26, 2009 1:15 PM | Report abuse

"And who’d trust a no-good conman like Sawyer who let Sayid be tortured just because he wanted to keep his cushy (creepy) Dharma life?"

See, I didn't think that Sawyer was making his decisions out of selfishness. He's the new Jack; he's the leader of the Dharma Losties, and keeping them safe is his top priority. So it's not about him; it's about Juliet and Jin and Miles, etc. Look at how he reacted when the other Losties showed: running around like crazy trying to find a way to bring them into the fold (thus keeping them safe) without blowing the cover of the folks who are already there. Then doing the same thing when Sayid showed up, including trying again and again to help him.

I'm really bummed about Sayid. He was always one of my favorites, with the pushme-pullyou of good Sayid/bad Sayid, will he find a way to overcome the bad things he's done in the past, etc. But my own sense is that one of the underlying themes of the show is that the ends do not justify the means. And Sayid is now the poster child for the opposite perspective. Which leads me to suspect that he's spiraling down a dark path that may well lead to him being the one who gets offed at the end of the year.

Posted by: laura33 | March 26, 2009 1:17 PM | Report abuse

I is clear that Ben is DEAD. Deader than Marley.

Future Ben will simply vaporize, while Locke will keel over dead and the 316 crowd will soon starve.

Back in 1977, Sayid will be dead soon too, having been killed by the Hostiles, who will then attack Dharmaville and kill everyone except Jack, Kate, and Sawyer.

The entire rest of the series will focus EXCLUSIVELY on the Jack-Kate-Sawyer triangle.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 26, 2009 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Long ago Back when sayid was torturing Ben who was saying he was henry gale...didn't ben have a scar from and old gunshot wound?

Posted by: spg2 | March 26, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

Whymithinkinboutthis: “i think the reason sayid hit jin was so he could get jin's gun, with which to shoot ben.”

Perhaps, perhaps. But surely it can’t have been his ‘plan’ since Sayid asked Jin to let him go firt? Presumably Sayid’s preference was to slip away into the jungle and do the deed as he ‘planned’. And once the radio call went in, he knew he had to ‘neutralize’ Jin, and easy gun access changed Sayid’s Ben-death plan?

Posted by: PatAbroad | March 26, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Couple other thoughts: Ilana may have been working for Widmore to bring Sayid back to Guam but I think Ben was the one who tipped her off as to Sayid's location so he could be captured in time to end up on the same flight as the rest of the Losties.

I also think Kate is going to be heavily involved in trying to save Ben and we will find out that it has to do with whatever Ben did to get Kate to get on the plane and abandon Aaron.

Posted by: dojemc | March 26, 2009 1:26 PM | Report abuse

I agree with caltexona. Best line was:

"Three years with no burning buses. Y’all are back for one day..."

Re: the comments above, I have to agree, Ben's not dead, it's weird that Sayyid didn't shoot him several times, but that can perhaps be explained by the amount of remorse he had over shooting a defenseless boy.

Posted by: charodon | March 26, 2009 1:27 PM | Report abuse

Did anyone pick what Oldham's first name is? I don't recall hearing it, and I am wondering if he will turn out to be Jacob. There are some similarities between Oldham and Don Juan in A Separate Reality. Both use psychoactive compounds to get to truth, both living in tepees.
After Sayid's line about Ben and a chicken sandwich, I thought Oldham's line about not using a full dropper was great.

Did Sayid's bullet actually hit Lil Ben? Maybe my TV is old, but I did not see any blood stains on lil Ben. Maybe Ben just passed out from fear, or the bullet was stopped by the seperate reality trilogy in lil Ben's pocket.

I don't think Sayid meant to kill lil Ben, He would rather kill the older Ben. I believe he instead wanted to frighten lil Ben into thinking the others were just as bad as his father and did not want him.

Posted by: adam_peritz | March 26, 2009 1:28 PM | Report abuse

OK. It seems like most people are in the you can't change history/everything is fated camp. And I actually am too and agree that it's likely little Ben was not killed.

However, to play devil's advocate, I wonder if the shooting of little Ben by Sayid could explain why in 2007 when Sun and Lapidus ended up back in the Dharma barracks, they looked dilapidated (like they hadn't been used in a really long time) and still had Dharma signs hanging up (suggesting the Others never occupied the barracks).

Could this mean that by going back and shooting little Ben, the purge was averted and the Others never came to take over the Dharma's? That would suggest that history could be changed. What I can't figure out is if we know Ben grew to be an adult, how could little Ben have died? All very confusing...

Posted by: BPal | March 26, 2009 1:29 PM | Report abuse

Why did he need the gun, anyway? In that last scene, I was sure he was going to kill Ben, but I was expecting a parallel with the opening scene -- just as little Sayid easily snapped the chicken's neck with his bare hands, I truly expected grownup Sayid (a trained and skilled assassin, to boot) to snap Harry Potter's neck. I mean, you KNOW he could do it.

Posted by: Janine1 | March 26, 2009 1:35 PM | Report abuse

I don't know how Sayid's gonna get out of this one, except by joining the Others. But will they even want him, now that he's tried to kill a child who wanted to join them (and who will be their future leader)?

Did you notice the exchange between Juliet and James, when she said: "All this is going to end, isn't it?" He replied: "What do you mean, all this?" She said, "Us. What we have together." He replied to the effect that he wasn't going to let things change. I'm paraphrasing there, but in watching the scene, I got the sense Juliet was worried that Kate's return would mean the end of her relationship with James. Whereas he interpreted her question as fearing that their life and security in Dharmaville would be imperiled by Jack and Kate's return.

Like so many couples, they seemed to be having two different conversations and not realizing it!

Posted by: jesharris | March 26, 2009 1:42 PM | Report abuse

Ok, I don't like big Ben and lil' Ben totally creeps me out but for some reason when Sayid said he wasn't going to leave because he now knew his purpose on the island I really thought he was going to kill Ben's dad.

How did lil' Ben know how to get the flaming van rolling across Dharmaville?

I think Ben paid the bounty hunter to bring Sayid in. She was adamant about having to be on that flight.

Posted by: jes11 | March 26, 2009 1:43 PM | Report abuse

laura33: Well, here’s how I see it. LaFleur was pretty adamant to Sayid that he wasn’t prepared to give up his new life, as opposed to saying he need to perpetuate the lie to protect the Dharma Losties (i.e., Sawyer has no life off the island, and won’t give up the pretense even if it harms other people). Further, I think, the real Lostie leader should be protecting all Losties and not just the 1974-Dharma crowd (this of course raises the Rose and Bernard question)… I mean, after two days they haven’t talked about why Jack et al. are back (even though Swayer/LaFleur knows that Locke was going to send them back to save everyone).

More importantly, didn’t Jack return to the island to save, amongst others, Sawyer? I think Sawyer’s a little out of his depth when it comes to keeping everyone safe – what happens when LaFleur finds out Ben was on 316? I suspect LaFleur’s long con is soon to backfire.

Posted by: PatAbroad | March 26, 2009 1:44 PM | Report abuse

While I did like the three quotes above, my favorite quote of the episode was when the bus came through. Sawyer: Three years with no burning Dharma busses, and you're back one day... I'm not sure if that's the exact quote, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Posted by: Sommery | March 26, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

spg2 wrote: "Long ago Back when sayid was torturing Ben who was saying he was henry gale...didn't ben have a scar from and old gunshot wound?"

Anyone got a picture of that? I can't find anything online.

And it had to be Ben who tipped off the bounty hunter. It makes sense since it was Ben who had Sayid go to Guam to execute someone. The person may not have even been important in any way, but it allowed Ben to force Sayid on that plane in the typical Ben-setting-up-the-situation sort of way.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 26, 2009 1:46 PM | Report abuse

did anyone walk away from the opening scene of last night's episode wondering, for the first time, whether sayid was jacob? granted, the shooting (killing?) at the end puts it into doubt, but think of the similarities to the biblical story. Jacob and Esau were brothers (twins) and jacob, by a form of deceit, stole his brother's birthright, and because of that, became the man who he was (this is very general, sunday school was a while ago). sayid, on the other hand, while not necessarily through trickery, stole the birthright his father expected to give to his older brother. because of that, sayid was put on a particular path and his brother was likely forgotten about. thoughts?

Posted by: wormsparkly | March 26, 2009 12:40 PM

I totally was thinking the same thing! I also was thinking about the fact that if Sayid really did kill Ben in some form (Locke-dead or dead-dead), perhaps he is made to carry out everything Ben had to set into motion (ie- The Purge). My guess is that the island's fate is set to a certain extent, but the major activities that occur (The Purge) still have to happen some way, and if the person that originally did it is already dead, someone else takes the place.

And Glenn SG:
I am pretty sure that Sayid shot Ben in the chest almost directly where the heart is. If that is the case, he has to be dead unless the island doesn't allow it.

Posted by: Ohyouknow | March 26, 2009 1:59 PM | Report abuse

I agree with the comments made by Laura33. Sayid said he knew why he had to come back to the island. He thought it was to rid the future of Ben. But the real purpose for returning Sayid was to turn a "lost" Lil' Ben, looking for a friend (Sayid), into the psychopath of the future. Lil' Ben will survive because his destiny has not yet been fulfilled. But Sayid has fulfilled his purpose for the island, making him, I believe, the number one candidate for the obituary column at the end of the season. Such a pity, cause Sayid so easy to look at.

Posted by: carolfeather | March 26, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

Interesting bit of trivia: The actress Elizabeth Mitchell (Juliet) had a supporting lead in the movie Frequency - a movie about a father and son who communicate across time to right a wrong and save the future of their loved one - and in that film, the name of the bad-guy character was Jack Shepard. Not saying it means anything... just trivia :-)

Posted by: daward74 | March 26, 2009 2:10 PM | Report abuse

I'm starting to think that by Sayid shooting little Ben, he allowed him to resurect like Locke. The hostiles will find out about his resurection and eventually make Ben their leader.

Posted by: cashink2003 | March 26, 2009 2:27 PM | Report abuse

I couldn't help wondering why Sayid, when Ben in the coat and hat told him he was done with 'the list', that Sayid was so sad.
It seems that he had remorse about killing, but that one scene now makes me question. His "well what will I do now?" doesn't match up with a person that didn't want to kill.

Posted by: JLRGG | March 26, 2009 2:35 PM | Report abuse

I'm thinking that lil' Ben has mirror image internal organs, which is rare (less than 1 in 10,000 people) but does happen in real life. It's called Situs inversus (I had to look it up). So his heart is on the right side, not the left. So Sayid's perfect shot at where he expected Ben's heart to be actually hit where his heart isn't.

Posted by: Ghak | March 26, 2009 2:35 PM | Report abuse

Wow - I am *so* bummed - I watched (I thought) the entire episode last night, and waited for the previews which did not materialize. The strange thing is - the last scene I saw was of Sayid still behind bars and Lil Ben asking if he would take him to "his" people; i.e., no shooting!!! I am so surprised to be reading about this! Weird, huh??

Posted by: dj15 | March 26, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

And it had to be Ben who tipped off the bounty hunter. It makes sense since it was Ben who had Sayid go to Guam to execute someone. The person may not have even been important in any way, but it allowed Ben to force Sayid on that plane in the typical Ben-setting-up-the-situation sort of way.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 26, 2009 1:46 PM


This kind of irks me. When did Sayid go to Guam to kill someone? When he shot the guy in on the golf course, it was in the Seychelles, an archipelago off the coast of Madagascar, far from Guam. Ilana even mentioned it during the episode last night.

I still think Ilana was hired by Ben - perhaps under the guise that he was family of the golf course victim - and he convinced her that Guam was a good middle meeting point for Sayid to change hands.

Posted by: eet7e | March 26, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

Along the line of Faraday's "what happened, happened" theorem, I think that in one timestream Lil Ben wipes out the Dharmas, but in the other (newly created?) timestream where the Losties become the Dharmas and Sayid kills Lil Ben, I think the Dharmas will also be wiped out, not by Ben but by something. The Dharma compound that Sun and the pilot see in 2007 has clearly been ravaged by something and abandoned. So I think that even if there are several different timestreams or parallel universes, they all trend toward "self correction" where the same major events happen, but may be triggered by different means.

God it's hard to talk about this stuff that makes sense when you start writing it down.

Personally, I don't think Sayid managed to kill Lil Ben. I think it's the same island effect that prevented Walt's dad (blanking out on his name) from shooting himself. I think maybe the kid fainted from shock. He had the same stunned look on his face as James did last week, when James should have been shot point blank, but wasn't.

Posted by: NW_Washington | March 26, 2009 2:53 PM | Report abuse

The time travel ideas are all messed up. I don't buy this idea that what is happenning now in 1977 is part of everyone's past in 2007. The idea that old Ben remembers Sayid, Juliet as a child makes no sense, because that would mean that the Losties would have to remember their time on the island in the 70s as well which they clearly don't. There is no way that when the plane crashed in 2004, the Losties had already been to the island 30 years earlier and knew everything about the island already.

Posted by: buffysummers | March 26, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

***SPOILER WARNING: I’m going to cite the names of the next two upcoming episodes in this post.***

1) Ben is going to live b/c the island will heal him just as it healed Rose and Locke (both his paralysis and when Ben shot him). Last week when Ben removed the sling from his arm w/in a day or two of arriving back on the island suggests the island has special healing powers for Ben.

2) I think we’re finally at the point when LindeCuse are going to reveal what is meant by the cosmos “course correcting” and define what can and cannot be changed in the past (which so far has only been hinted at by folks like Desmond, Faraday, and Mrs. Hawking). This coming week’s episode is entitled “Whatever Happened, Happened.” Although LindeCuse can be clever and deceitful in their titles, I’m hoping the “rules” of what can be changed and what cannot will be better defined by 10:02 EDT on April 1 – or it will be a cruel April Fool’s joke, indeed.

3) The Apr. 8 episode is “Dead Is Dead.” Hopefully that episode will shed some light on the “rules” of why folks like Locke & Christian Shepherd seem to come back to life and others on the island die and remain dead.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 26, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

So I've got a question about the Dharma compound that Sun and Frank visit in 2007 a couple of episodes ago. That isn't the actual Dharma compound where the losties are living in 1977. Isn't that the receiving area just off the dock where the submarine docks? The Dharma living quarters compound is much further inland, i.e. why Sawyer was able to drive Jack, Kate, and Hurley into the compound.

So it wouldn't be that much of a shock that it is abandoned and in disrepair just like many of the stations have been found.

Posted by: pcvhawley | March 26, 2009 3:43 PM | Report abuse

Jack is jacob. Duh... Jack/Jacob. Maybe they need to spell it out for us! By the way, John is another name for Jack. Any change, Locke is an older version of Jack?

Posted by: brooksie78 | March 26, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse

jesharris: I just thought of another place Sayid could go if he doesn't join the others... Is Rousseau there yet? Is it coincidence that Sayid was the one who found Rousseau in the first season and her primary instinct was to tie him up and shoot him full of drugs? And then she goes on to get along just fine with all the other Losties. It was only Sayid she seemed to have a problem with in Seasons 1 and 2. I just cannot remember now what year Rousseau came to the island. She might not be there yet.

Posted by: a68comeback | March 26, 2009 4:06 PM | Report abuse

buffysummers wrote: "The time travel ideas are all messed up. I don't buy this idea that what is happenning now in 1977 is part of everyone's past in 2007. The idea that old Ben remembers Sayid, Juliet as a child makes no sense, because that would mean that the Losties would have to remember their time on the island in the 70s as well which they clearly don't."

No, you have it wrong, at least with Lost, not the standard model of the universe :-). Lets take Jack for instance. Lets say he is 35 years old in 2007. He went back to 1977, but Jack is still 35 years old. His memory of 1977 was as a 5 year old in wherever he lived as a 5 year old.

Now Ben in 1977 is on the island and so when the Losties show up, Lil'Ben would then have memories of them that he would carry into adulthood, but it is not clear to me when those memories would appear in Big'Ben's mind. After all, before 2007 the Losties had not been back to 1977. Were lil'Ben's memories always there or, like Desmond, would they appear in Big'Ben's memory as they happened, so Ben would get the memories in 2007 since a 2007 aged Jack made the memory.

buffysummers wrote: "There is no way that when the plane crashed in 2004, the Losties had already been to the island 30 years earlier and knew everything about the island already."

Right, because when the plane crashed in 2004 Jack was 32 years old and now he's 35 in 2007 and then ended up in 1977. His memories of 1977 on the island happened when he was 35, not before he was 32.

Hope that makes sense.

Got a thought about Ben and the bullet. Maybe he was wearing a bullet proof vest. But then I thought the vests were not around in 1977, at least as thin as they make them today and Lil'Ben did not look like he was wearing a 1977 bulky bullet proof vest.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 26, 2009 4:12 PM | Report abuse

Ben says "I really hated him," referring to his father in the past sense, whom he murders in the future. This is among the evidence that Ben has perception of events past, present, and future. Other evidence: Ben knows where the three outriggers will be, Ben knows about people's lives in depth even after meeting them for only a few moments, Ben understands motives and subtle events and can use those to manipulate others. Two explanations for this perception: A) past, present, and future are really all happening at the same time, and Ben has a gift to perceive this, or B) past, present, and future are looping (like a broken record) and Ben has recollection of things befor the skip. Locke was expected to have this perception ability, too, when Richard Alpert visits the young Locke and asks which of the items he recognizes as his own, one of which is from Locke's future. I think the test of Locke's metal to see if Locke will kill his father is also somehow a test to see if Locke has this special perception, and the ability to alter past and future events that goes with it. Desmond also has it, his remembrance of the past changes when Faraday alters it, and Faraday says its not himself who is special, but Desmond.

Posted by: PeoriaAndrew | March 26, 2009 4:14 PM | Report abuse

This goes back 2 episodes but I think you wonderful gals got something wrong re Sawyer being shot while rescuing Amy from the Hostiles. Sawyer was never shot - what happened was - Juliet shot first at the Hostiles and then Sawyer looked back over his shoulder at Juliet. This was the 1st example of where Juliet demonstrated that she 'had Sawyer's back' which was one of the themes for that episode.

Posted by: heidivedder | March 26, 2009 4:23 PM | Report abuse

I think after next week there will be a new set of "rules" laid down. Remember the "rules" that Widmore "changed?" He didn't break the rules by killing Alex, just changed them. That suggests that events can be significantly altered from the way they had occurred the first time. I think.

"Whatever happened, happened" doesn't have to mean that it always has to happen the way it did before, but that it happens how it happens at whatever time it happens. Thus, happened.

I'm subscribing to the time-loop theory here that has the Losties stuck until they course-correct themselves out of it.

And now I have a headache.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | March 26, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Ghak:
Interesting idea. Not sure I'm with you, but it's a nice parallel with Locke surviving the gunshot that hit him where his kidney would've been had he not donated it to his convict father.

Posted by: tig_coili | March 26, 2009 4:52 PM | Report abuse

I'm trying to read the transcript of the chat, and it's formatted all weird. Maybe it's just me, but that's the only page I'm having an issue with. Help!

Posted by: talleyl | March 26, 2009 4:54 PM | Report abuse

"Another option for best quote of the night:

“Three years with no burning buses. Y’all are back for one day….”

"

*Totally* the winner!

Posted by: HardyW | March 26, 2009 5:10 PM | Report abuse

"I'm worried for Sayid. I think his purpose in the story is fulfilled and does not have a future."


Agreed

Posted by: HardyW | March 26, 2009 5:14 PM | Report abuse

Did anyone else think that Ben looked surprised that Sayid was on the plane, almost scared even, I have to go back and watch, but it really seems to me that Ben was slightly astonished that Sayid made it on the plane.

Posted by: tjkass | March 26, 2009 5:38 PM | Report abuse

Also, loved the fact that it was MacCutcheon scotch made an appearance again -- love this show

Posted by: tjkass | March 26, 2009 5:41 PM | Report abuse

I have to agree that Lil' Ben was shot where his heart would normally be (with Ben you have to wonder if he ever had a heart), not in the abdomen, and that we saw no sign of blood. I'm not sure that there will be a bullet proof vest for an explanation (I think it will be the island healing powers) but a vest would be ironic in that Old Ben shot Charlotte whose initial death was prevented by a bullet proof vest. We still haven't found out why she showed up on the island in 2004 with the vest on. That couldn't be because of a warning by Daniel; he was going to warn her about never going back to the island.

Posted by: dojemc | March 26, 2009 5:49 PM | Report abuse

I don't think Ben showed surprise that any of the Losties were on the plane. Rather they showed surprise when they saw each other on the plane. And surprise at Ben being on board.

Posted by: dojemc | March 26, 2009 5:51 PM | Report abuse

I don't remember Ben showing any surprise when he entered the plane. dojemc is right, everyone else was surprised. But did anyone notice that all were in first class? Not one was in coach. I know they all have money from the settlement but how did they all decide to get first class tickets? Its probably nothing, just one of those little things that keeps me watching and wondering.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 26, 2009 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Wow - I knew Sayid wanted to kill Ben, but I was not expecting little Ben to be shot this episode. I agree that he is not dead. I saw a post on E!online that mentioned the episode where Ben's tumor was operated on by Jack. This post said that Ben had a gunshot wound and Jack asked what happened and he said that he had been shot (can someone verify this?). If true, then that explains why Ben was using Sayid as his personal killer...not just to mess with him for personal revenge, but because he knew that Sayid would be perfect for the job. That chicken sandwich line was priceless.

Posted by: linz2 | March 26, 2009 6:25 PM | Report abuse

I think one of the key "major clue or massive continuity error" issues that I haven't seen discussed is that Alpert appears to be an exception to the "changed stuff isn't remembered until after the change happened" principle -- he know when he gives Locke the compass that he will have had seen him (was it _Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe_ that pointed out that one of the major problems of time travel is verb tenses?) back in the Jughead days before knowing who he was (he says something like "Next time you see me I won't know who you are.").

Posted by: Karl3 | March 26, 2009 7:23 PM | Report abuse

If we're trying to find out whether Ben has a bullet wound scar, why not go back to the time when Jack was doing surgery on him? I bet there'd be a pretty good abdomen shot in that scene. I'm too lazy to check.

Also, I second the predictions that both Jack and Juliet save Ben, not unlike the way they both saved him back in the earlier eps with the surgery. That'd explain why he sought their help the next time he had a major medical problem. Good call on 'lil Ben getting Nightingale sydrome w/ Juliet.

I also think that the events have shifted somewhat, but Dharma is still getting wiped out one way or another. Not unlike how Desmond kept saving Charlie from various forms of death.

Completely unrelated -- 'lil Ben wears glasses. Did old Ben get lasik or something? He isn't wearing glasses all that often (but still does, sometimes, I think) and I can't imagine it being too easy to get contact lenses on the island while living amongst hostiles.

Posted by: allison777 | March 26, 2009 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Several posters have said Ben told Sayid, "I really hated him," referring to Ben's father in the past tense. Actually what Ben says just before he leads Sayid from the jail cell is, "I really hate it here." There is no past tense to suggest Ben killed his abusive father before freeing Sayid or that Ben's father may be in the flaming Dharma van.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 26, 2009 7:44 PM | Report abuse

A lot of great quotes last night, and I think burning buses was tops. But I also loved Sayid's, "Are you sure we're going to Guam?" Nicely echoed Frank's, "We're not going to Guam, are we?", which to me is the all-time best line of the show so far.

Posted by: jhusson1 | March 26, 2009 8:11 PM | Report abuse

I can't believe I just made an account just to post this.

Ben doesn't say "I hated him" he says "I really hate it here." Watch it again.

Posted by: verhext | March 26, 2009 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Ben looks totally surprised and concerned when he comes onto the plane and sees Sayid. Maybe because he knows Sayid shot him as a boy and was hoping to return with the other Losties and create a different past.

Posted by: alisamkeith | March 26, 2009 11:21 PM | Report abuse

A bit late on commenting, but:

If time travel is possible, then what makes it "historical fact" that l'il Ben didn't get killed by Sayid. And, trust me, Sayid aimed directly for the heart - the kid IS dead in that particular time zone.

However, assuming we're traversing time folks, what makes anyone think that particular "shooting" can't be undone? History may have a way of repeating itself, but at the same time - with the gift of time travel and all - someone (pick your favorite Lostie here) could simply travel a bit further back in time and stop the shooting of l'il Ben.

It's called time travel for a reason...

Posted by: CaptainJohn2525 | March 27, 2009 8:19 AM | Report abuse

And it was a "van" - not a bus. And the first time Hurley drove it into the "others" it wasn't burning.

Posted by: CaptainJohn2525 | March 27, 2009 8:24 AM | Report abuse

Ummm... Obviously things are not totally linear anymore. So, let's not forget that there is a different scenario potentially on the horizon...

What if it's 2007 Ben that gets back to meet up with the other Losties (w/Sun & Frank) to be the Ben that facilitates the purge??

Posted by: Bingchudie | March 27, 2009 9:34 AM | Report abuse

And it was a "van" - not a bus. And the first time Hurley drove it into the "others" it wasn't burning.
Posted by: CaptainJohn2525

Oh, Captain John, you're either showing your youth or your aged forgetfulness: that style of VW van was commonly nicknamed "bus" or "microbus" back in the day.

Posted by: PQSully | March 27, 2009 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Interesting idea about Ben's internal organs being reversed (although this is uncommon enough that Jack would surely have remarked on it when operating on Ben). It's a common saying that somebody's "heart is in the right place." One of the (implicit) debates is whether this is true of Ben. Maybe his heart is in the wrong place, literally as well as figuratively!

Posted by: MrDarwin | March 27, 2009 10:43 AM | Report abuse

I thought Ben very clearly said "I hate it here."
Since we know that Juliett and now Kate work at the motor pool, it should seem obvious that Dharma has several vans like the one Hurley drove. Just because one burnt up means nothing.

Posted by: Iowahoosier | March 27, 2009 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Couple things:
I heard "I hate it here."

I think the "bullet proof vest" we saw on Ben was probably just the miniature explosive device worn by the actor to simulate a gsw. I would find it hard to believe that the peacful Dharma-ites would just happen to have an anachronistic child-sized bullet-proof vest on hand in case something happens.

But it's definitely not an accident when Charlotte is shot. I think the answer is pretty easy. Charlotte was recruited to go on the freighter by Widmore through Abaddon. Widmore, as we have recently learned, is very familiar with Ben & co and knows that they are dangerous. Widmore made the science team freighter folk wear bullet proof vests for when they ran into Ben and the Others.

I can't make up my mind about what Sayid shooting Ben will mean for the timeline. It could either cause the events of the future or change the events. It could either trigger Ben to become the way he is, or it could keep that from happening. I'm trying not to think about it until I get more information.

Agreed on the Nightengale effect on Ben vis a vis Juliet being a good theory, but I've read in press releases for the show that another character will fight to keep Ben alive. I won't name names to keep from spoiling it, but if you look at the episode summary from ABC for the April 8 episode, it'll say who it is. So maybe the fact that it won't be Juliet will change the future as well...???

My brain hurts. I think I need some waffles with dipping sauce to help me.

Posted by: eet7e | March 27, 2009 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Oh! And I'm also not convinced that Roger was in the burning van, but I am convinced that Ben torched the van and sent it rolling in order to create a diversion to get Sayid out of his cell.

Posted by: eet7e | March 27, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Several people have been busting on Sawyer for his behavior last night. I agonized about it, too. BUT one thing to recall is that, while the Losties spent 100 days together in 2004, Sawyer et. al. have now spent over 10 times that amount of time as part of Dharma--first just trying to survive and not be found out, but then getting to know the people, forming relationships and attachments, and as Sawyer said, apparently making a pretty good life. So while I was definitely muttering "No no no no no" during the Dharma vote when James reluctantly raised his hand, I think it's understandable that his loyalties are extremely divided, and I understand the difficulty in trying to figure out the right thing to do for everyone.

Posted by: PQSully | March 27, 2009 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Re: Lil' Ben. I agree that Sayid may have just provided the turning point in Ben's life: the event that pushes an already vulnerable abused young man over the edge. Up to now, his desired solution to his unhappy life has been to run away--to Richard, or with Sayid, to simply escape. I think Sayid's attempted murder of Ben (and yes, I'm sure he'll live) will plant the seeds of Ben believing the destruction of his unhappy life (i.e., of his father and dharma) as the solution to all his problems.

Now, my beloved spouse disagrees with me and believes that Ben was born a sociopath, and thus had no sympathy for 12-year-old Ben getting slapped around by his dad. Me, I found that heart-wrenching--not just because any child abuse is horrible, but also because of how I think it will mold him into the monster he becomes later.

Posted by: PQSully | March 27, 2009 1:48 PM | Report abuse

PQSully,

I agree. Also the fact that if he didn't, he would look shady and some of the Dharmas are already questioning him I think with everything else that has gone on recently...He has to maintain the trust of Horace and keep his job in order to have any leverage later on if they need it...
If he doesn't keep the peace, so to speak, he and the Losties could be in serious trouble...
And plus - It's not like he didn't give Sayid a MILLION chances to lie or run away...Sayid was stubborn and so Sawyer had to start thinking about himself.

Posted by: Ohyouknow | March 27, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

Ohyouknow,

Exactly. Another thing that struck me about Sawyer was when he declared "These people trust me." His tone didn't say "I've tricked these people and now they trust me and I don't want to mess up my con." To me, his tone said "I have earned these people's trust, I value it, I value them, and I have a responsibility to them as well as you." A far cry from the Sawyer we knew originally, who hoarded drugs and supplies and looked out only for himself.

Posted by: PQSully | March 27, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Now, my beloved spouse disagrees with me and believes that Ben was born a sociopath, and thus had no sympathy for 12-year-old Ben getting slapped around by his dad. Me, I found that heart-wrenching--not just because any child abuse is horrible, but also because of how I think it will mold him into the monster he becomes later.

Posted by: PQSully

Oh, I have sympathy over his getting smacked around by Broots (as fans of "The Pretender" will remember Jon Gries), but yes, I think Ben would have been a sociopath even if his dad wasn't an abusive drunk. Living on that island would twist any impresionable kid.

Posted by: louiesully | March 27, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

Oh, I have sympathy over his getting smacked around by Broots (as fans of "The Pretender" will remember Jon Gries), but yes, I think Ben would have been a sociopath even if his dad wasn't an abusive drunk. Living on that island would twist any impresionable kid.
Posted by: louiesully | March 27, 2009 2:45 PM

DON'T LISTEN TO HIM HE'S WRONG WRONG WRONG!!

Posted by: PQSully | March 27, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

Gotta lightheartedly disagree with those Sawyer supporters!!

First, LaFleur told Sayid that he wanted to maintain his long-con because he liked his Dharma life so much (he’s previously noted that Sawyer has nothing to go ‘home’ for), and not because it was the best thing to do (for the Losties and Freighties) . Saying, “you’ve gotta lie for me so I can maintain my con” was hardly going to go down well with an in-transit criminal who just fell out the sky 30 years into the past. The goal of Jack’s leadership was easy—get everyone off the island. But what is LaFleur’s role?

Second, perhaps LaFleur should actually try thinking and use his Sawyer-island knowledge a little more. He has enough information on the hostiles and Dharma to be way more in control! He also has knowledge of, for example, technology 30 years in the future. And he’s had three years. His leadership skills get a ‘D’ from me!

Third, LaFleur needs to wise up pronto and realize he’s out of his depth. For example, he needs Sayid and co’s help to maintain his long-con—perhaps he should ask Sayid and co for that help and not tell them what to do? Further, LaFleur knows (from when he was Sawyer!) that Locke was sending ‘them’ back to save, amongst others, Sawyer (don’t you think LaFleur should be a little interested in what ‘they’ have to say?) Instead of trying to play leader, LaFleur should be asking what he can do for ‘them’? Why didn’t LaFleur think about why Sayid refused to leave the jail cell? Why didn’t he assign Jack a job that was useful for Dharmaville (he would have if he was NOT just thinking of himself).

Fourth, we all knew Dharma-life was going to rapidly unravel (as should a thinking-LaFleur), so what is LaFleur trying to protect?

I humbly rest my case!

Posted by: PatAbroad | March 27, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Ha! I remember William Sanderson from Larry, Darryl and Darryl!

Posted by: doobrah | March 27, 2009 3:15 PM | Report abuse

I'm interested to hear thoughts / theories on the 15 years between 1977 and 1992 (when its estimated that the purge takes places right??) 15 yes one of the numbers... If Ben has just been shot by someone who he believes is a hostile (other), how come he continues to want to join them.... Will he be visited by someone who explains that Sayid was not one of them? Widmore and Ben still have not met on island... When will we see that take place.... and just a random question, Who is funding Mittelos ? Not Widmore, not Dharma..... Is there a third big player out there? possibly Paik?

Posted by: tjkass | March 27, 2009 3:19 PM | Report abuse

Is no one bothered by the fact that Sawyer had a taser in 1977?

Posted by: mmsdc | March 27, 2009 3:32 PM | Report abuse

PatAbroad: I respectfully disagree about Sawyer. Some people (especially probably people who have experience with long con games) tend to keep their ideas very close to the vest. If you ever watch a season of Survivor, you will see all kinds of people making alliances and trying to ensure their survival from one situation to the next. The people who usually go home first are the ones who talk too much. I think Sawyer IS thinking. He ia also LEADING. He has to maintain his persona and relationships as a Dharmite in order to ensure Kate, Jack and Hurley will be ok. He just doesn't blab about it to everyone.

And honestly, why should he confide in Jack? What did Jack ever do for him?? Basically last week he told Jack, "Follow my lead or back off. And you're a smart guy, so if you don't want to follow my lead, where will you be exactly?"

But I think you are right that he is out of his depth. The thing about con men though, and being the child of one I can tell you, is that they will NEVER ADMIT they are out of their depth. There is an almost religious element of faith in any con -- and Sawyer knows exactly how much you have to believe in your own lie or risk losing everything.

Love Sawyer..., but it does not explain the taser. Good catch mmsdc!

PQ and Louie: You can agree to disagree. Just don't go to bed angry. LOST is not worth tearing apart the Sully household!!

Posted by: a68comeback | March 27, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

In this week's episode, Sayid kills a Russian apparently named Andropov. As Sayid exits the building, there are reverse Cyrillic numbers at the round window over the exit doors. My brilliant husband wrote them down and reverse engineered them into European characters and found that the translation from Russian is "Oldham Pharmaceuticals." This may just be a very inside joke by the writers, since the "He's our you" torturer/truth sugar cube guy was named "Oldham".
I tried to watch the murder again to see if the victim could have been the Oldham actor aged and chunked up to be the older Russian. I really think it is probably 2 different actors. But nevertheless a good inside joke, and perhaps an implied back story of what happens to Oldham (does he leave the island and go into the pharmaceutical business?) Does he link up with Widmore at some point? This is so subtle that I don't expect an answer.

Posted by: Lindytx | March 27, 2009 4:02 PM | Report abuse

a68comeback: We shall respectfully disagree!

But, who is LaFleur looking out for? (I say, mostly, himself) What is his goal? (I say to stay in Dharma-wonderland as long as possible) What is his leadership role? (I say to feel useful for the first time in his life)—it’s not to get everyone off the island, and he can’t have a plan to save everyone (or anyone) because he doesn’t know who to save and from what etc. (those answers, potentially, come from the Ajira Losties, which means LaFleur humble pie). If you don’t know what your leader’s role is (I say), you can’t be a good leader. The only path of redemption I see is if LaFleur has been in contact with Alpert.

LaFleur shouldn’t necessarily be confiding in Jack and co, but certainly should be finding out information (‘they’ have been their two days(?) and all he knows it that Kate knows why she came back). Again, LaFleur’s Dharma-life relies on the Ajira-Losties as much as them. Don’t you think LaFleur needs to get some input with Ben back on the island?

With all the information he has (1950s to 2005), has LaFleur really made the best use of his situation? I mean, Dharma has an interest in space-time experiments and here is someone with knowledge of 20 or more years in the past and present?

Good insight to the conman life. However, with Smokey, time-travel, serial-killing-sociopath(s) on the loose, etc. I think a conman must even know he’s out of his depth!

Posted by: PatAbroad | March 27, 2009 4:18 PM | Report abuse

While everyone is taking a whack at Sawyer, I'll add it hit me funny that he hasn't asked Kate, "Did you do what I asked: check on my daughter, Clementine?" Presumably that's what Sawyer whispered in Kate's ear before he jumped from the helicopter and that's who Kate was seeing for Sawyer that enraged Jack after the O6 returned to the U.S. from the island.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 27, 2009 6:23 PM | Report abuse

To all who have been frustrated by Sawyer's lack of questioning and the new arrivals lack of explanations (and I am one of them), just remember that this is Lost we are talking about. The characters never ask the questions we are dying to hear them ask : - ) That is why we participate in this blog - to see if we can figure out what's going on before they finally reveal the answers on the show.

Posted by: dojemc | March 27, 2009 7:11 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and I'm casting my lot with those who feel Sawyer is a lousy leader : - ) He's not even the true leader of the Dharmaites. Apparently it's Horace and he has leadership issues as well.

Posted by: dojemc | March 27, 2009 7:14 PM | Report abuse

I can't believe I just made an account just to post this.

Ben doesn't say "I hated him" he says "I really hate it here." Watch it again.

Posted by: verhext | March 26, 2009 10:28 PM

LOL - I also wanted to create an account (luckily I already had one) just to post this, I am so tired of people misquoting it and going off on ridiculous tangents! It's called Closed Captioning people.

Posted by: ewitch | March 27, 2009 8:49 PM | Report abuse

dojemc wrote: "Oh, and I'm casting my lot with those who feel Sawyer is a lousy leader : - ) He's not even the true leader of the Dharmaites. Apparently it's Horace and he has leadership issues as well."

I feel Sawyer is doing what he's always done, surviving. As long as buses don't burn and Lostees don't show up unannounced all is well. He's happy to live that way forever. He knows that Dharma is doing strange things and the Others are out there, with smokey lurking, but none of that bothers him as long as his survival is ensured. I think this is what Juliet was getting at. They were playing house and not working to solve the bigger problems on the island and in the future. She find's Sawyer the equivalent of the happy couch potato, and we know how women don't like the happy couch potato. And Sawyer's "saving" the Lostees really means incorporating them into Dharma so they can be as happy as he is. But Jack, Kate and even Hurley are not looking forward to living in Dharmaville for the next decade. Actually, I'm wondering what they are thinking about the next 2 months. None really have an agenda, well, Kate said she came for "one reason" and I don't think it was to see Sawyer. She's on a mission from Widmore is my bet. But Jack seems to care less. He just hopes to see his dad after hearing from Locke that Locke talked to his dad. Hurley? I have no idea why Hurley got on the plane and no idea why he seems to be happy as a cook. So, it seems that except for Kate the other Lostees are just kinda hanging. Makes one wonder why they came back at all.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 27, 2009 9:44 PM | Report abuse

doobrah wrote: "Ha! I remember William Sanderson from Larry, Darryl and Darryl!"

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I couldn't remember what show I had seen him on before. Newhart was a great show and had one of the greatest lines ever uttered on TV:

"Hi, this is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother Darryl"

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 27, 2009 10:22 PM | Report abuse

I don't know what's going to happen to lil Ben in the storyline, but just thinking strategically, the writers would be Crazy Eddie Insane if they killed off such a deliciously evil character as Ben.

My bigger questions is: Where is Desmond? They're still running Henry Ian Cusick's name in the opening credits. At some point they're going to have to explain why Ben was so beat up between the marina scene and getting on the Ajira flight. Won't they?

Posted by: doobrah | March 28, 2009 3:56 PM | Report abuse

This is a little nit to pick (and I may have missed a critical explanation), but if a "bounty hunter" from one country captured me in a second country to take me to a third country, and I found myself in handcuffs in a crowded airport, I'd scream, "HELP, I'M BEING KIDNAPPED!!'

Posted by: argon412 | March 28, 2009 6:44 PM | Report abuse

The Returnees seem to be waiting for someone to tell them what to do. Ben told them they have to return to save the other Losties, but Ben was probably lying and anyway he's not with them to give further instructions.

I think they needed to return to finish learning their "lessons" and find redemption for past misdeeds. The island isn't done with THEM yet.

Jack may be thinking ahead, in some way, more than we realize. At least I hope he is. Seems like there is a lot of role reversal going on, it's his turn to figure things out.

I agree it's weird that Kate has not updated Sawyer about what she promised to do for him. But, as someone else pointed out, these guys rarely ask the obvious questions - and when they do, they rarely get a straight answer.

I wonder if Kate and Juliet, working in the shop, had something to do with the burning bus.

Ann Arbor. I was born there. Mystery solved.

Love the Dueling Sullys. Look out, Jen and LIz!

Posted by: camis | March 29, 2009 4:21 PM | Report abuse

oops - I meant SAWYER may be thinking ahead...

Posted by: camis | March 29, 2009 4:22 PM | Report abuse

"PQ and Louie: You can agree to disagree. Just don't go to bed angry. LOST is not worth tearing apart the Sully household!!"
Posted by: a68comeback

Never in life! Besides, we always agree on the most important issues (Hurley is the show's heart, Kate is very annoying, we miss Charlie something awful).

Posted by: PQSully | March 30, 2009 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Just had a thought. What if shooting Ben was like Danial's placing a memory in Desmond? The memory did not appear until the same timeline Danial was on, so even though it happened in the past Danial found himself in, it did not appear until 2007 or so in Desmond's mind.

So if this follows, Sayid killing lil'Ben would not have an effect until the same time as Sayid's age, 2007. So we might expect to see adult-2007-Ben clutch his chest and fall over in the next episode for example or maybe the universe will correct itself and kill Ben in some other way and he must work to prevent the universe from killing him as Des did for Charlie. Maybe that is what Ben has been doing the whole time, preventing his own death by altering the universe at any cost.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 30, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

Bevjims,

You could be on to something. The entire show is nothing more than Ben trying to save himself. Maybe his learning from Widmore that the rules can be changed will work out in his favor. Of course, Ben is such a nice guy it would be a trip if he fails in the last show of next year. And dies.

Posted by: dojemc | March 31, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

dojemc wrote: "Of course, Ben is such a nice guy it would be a trip if he fails in the last show of next year. And dies."

No, I'm already convinced what will happen in the last episode. I knew it the minute they buried that nuke. People don't write nukes into scripts for 3 minutes of drama on what to do with the nuke. Nukes do one thing really well in a plot like Lost's.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 31, 2009 6:54 PM | Report abuse

I don't disagree. And Ben will die : - )

Posted by: dojemc | April 1, 2009 12:07 PM | Report abuse

Ben will be redeemed or vindicated. Okay, maybe not.

But if that nuke ends the whole thing, I'm going to push my own personal donkey wheel and bail.

Posted by: camis | April 1, 2009 1:48 PM | Report abuse

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