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Posted at 9:36 AM ET, 03/19/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analysis: 'Namaste'

By Liz Kelly

In which Jen Chaney and I untangle (or tangle, it's all in how you look at it) the disparate threads that, taken together, knit into the stuff that addictive TV is made of: ABC's "Lost." Or a really ugly sweater. And be sure to join us for The 'Lost' Hour chat today at 3 p.m. ET.

Hurley (Jorge Garcia), Kate (Evangeline Lilly) and Jack (Matthew Fox) return to the island. (ABC)

Jen: I always wanted to get the whole "Losties" gang back together for some sort of '70s luau. And darn if we didn't come close tonight. I mean, they were wearing leis, and burgers and punch was being served. Sure, Sayid was in handcuffs and Jack, Kate and Hurley had to pretend they didn't know Juliet and Sawyer, but really, isn't that how most high school reunions go?

A lot of little things in this episode that may be significant, so many that I am not quite sure where to start. But how about with this idea: deja vu all over again. It seems like history is repeating itself here, but with some important variations. We saw another plane crash, and another pilot die in grisly fashion (though, thankfully, not Lapidus).

Then we saw some survivors on a beach, arguing about how to deal with living on this strange island, which totally reminded me of this awesome show that debuted on ABC back in 2004. We also are seeing Jack and Sawyer reversing roles (Sawyer is now the head of security -- the man in charge of keeping people safe -- and Jack is just a plain old janitor), but still at odds with each other. And, topping it all off at the end, we see another role reversal: Sayid is the prisoner this time, and the guy bringing him food? Good, 'ol Lil Ben.

Liz: Sawyer is doing so well -- he's calm, in control, Churchill-esque (if you ask him). Surely that means he's one of the two characters we will apparently lose by the end of this season.

Putting that grim thought aside for the moment, both he and Jack have had three years to grow. And while Jack used that time to become a pillhead, Sawyer built himself a life. A life that, as he told Juliet, he doesn't want Jack & co.'s return to jeopardize. But Sawyer's clearly harboring some resentment. Probably something to do with being left behind when the O6 took off, leaving him to careen through time and get nosebleeds and stuff. The question is, will this curve ball -- Jack and Kate's return -- throw him off balance or make him stronger?

Jen: Well, I would argue that Sawyer is in control, but was being kind of a jerk to Jack. He must sense that Jack had some sort of important off-island history with Kate, and that bothers him. Let's recall that even before Sawyer jumped out of that helicopter, he felt like Kate might choose Jack over him. I also kind of giggled about Jack's aptitude score, which clearly Sawyer must have rigged on purpose to put Jack in a non-authoritative role. But our Doc does seem relieved, doesn't he? It's a weight off his shoulders. And for once, he seems happy to accept that.

Liz: I don't know that he's necessarily relieved. Jack doesn't do relieved. I'll reserve my judgment. Speaking of encounters, the only tension more palpable than that between Jack and Sawyer was the ice cold reunion of Kate and Juliet. If looks could kill, this would've been a double murder. And judging by Kate's hanging out in the dark outside Sawyer's cottage and the preview scenes from next week, Juliet may have reason to worry.

Jen: Indeed. Kate clearly doesn't like what she's seeing. Which is completely not fair. I mean, she and Sawyer were on a break. It's totally within his rights to go back to the 1970s and hook up with someone else.

Liz: Juliet is just so much better for him. She does the laundry, helps him sneak random island arrivals into sub manifests and whatnot. If that isn't love then I don't know what is.

But one more telling detail: I thought it was interesting that Sawyer said, "Hello Kate," to Kate. It seems like he'd have said "Hello Freckles" if he wanted to pick up where they'd left off.

Jen: And she also said "Hello, James" instead of "Hello, Sawyer."

Liz: Though he spoke first, setting the tone. Anyhow, moving on from the love quadrangle, Juliet and Sawyer have taken a pretty big risk in covering for the returning Losties. It seems at least one, if not two, of the Dharmas are suspicious. Phil and Radzinsky, the keeper of the Flame.

Speaking of Radzinsky, where do we know that name from?

Jen: He was Kelvin Inman's old roomie in the Swan. And he's our friend who drew that nifty, glowing blast door map that Locke was so enchanted by back in season two. Tonight, it appeared he was in the process of designing the Swan (aka "The Hatch"). All of which suggests that we may be heading toward an understanding of what happened during The Incident. And I say that because (spoiler alert!) this season's finale is called "The Incident."

Liz: And next week's show is titled "He's Our You." Which is so coincidental, because next week's Lost Hour chat is titled "Jen's My Me."

Jen: Nice. Though all this talk of titles makes me wonder if tonight's, "Namaste," is worth noting?

Liz: It does function on a few levels. First, as a welcome to the island for the new recruits.

Jen: Right. But the word itself can be taken to mean "I bow to you," or "The light in me honors the light in you," which I think signifies two individuals or entities in balance with each other. And that plays in (sort of) with what I talked about before, about all those dual relationships sort of reversing themselves and (perhaps, we shall see) restoring balance in some cosmic way.

Liz: But we should be clear that, according to Wikipedia, it has a dozen different translations and the meaning has morphed as its become more of a globally used term.

Jen: Great, now I feel like I need to whiff some incense and listen to Geronimo Jackson.

Liz: Or to Blues Image?

Jen: Blues Image, you say? Dude, turn it up!

Liz Kelly: Which you might have recognized from tonight's "Ride Captain Ride" arrival music at the Dharma compound. At first I thought it was a little retro for '77, but then I remembered that the Dharma crew seem to be cut from the same cloth as folks who followed the Dead around for 30 years.

By the way, "namaste" can also mean "Your spirit and my spirit are ONE."

Jen: Ooh, creepy. I also would point you to these lyrics from "Ride Captain Ride":

Ride, captain ride upon your mystery ship
Be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip
Ride captain ride upon your mystery ship
On your way to a world that others might have missed

Sort of apropos. Also, that song has a very "Shambala" vibe to me. Sorry, just wanted to mention "Shambala," really.

Liz: Since we're talking about the Dharmas, should we touch on the under-18 set?

Juliet (Elizabeth Mitchell) cradles baby Ethan. (ABC)

Jen: Please, let's. Starting with Lil' Ethan?

Liz: Yes. Amy and Horace's baby, born in the last episode, is none other than one of our least favorite Other, Ethan Rom (later played by Tom Cruise cousin William Mapother). You might remember him from heartwarming moments like kidnapping Claire and trying to take her baby. I say "Other" because obviously Ethan survives the '91 purge. I wonder why. The best moment, though, was Juliet's look of disgust when she realized who she was holding. Hardly a bundle of joy.

Jen: Yeah, and several readers called this. So I have to give them credit, especially since I totally dismissed it. I thought Ethan was too marginal of a character, but obviously not. And it explains why he was so hellbent on getting his hands on Aaron. He saw the little guy as a baby brother, of sorts.

Liz: Well, he may still be marginal -- though his surviving the purge augurs against that -- we just happen to know his lineage now. Speaking of the purge, were you surprised that Sawyer wasn't set with a plan to survive it since he's obviously planning to stay there? Or, I should say, "hoping" to stay there.

Jen: A little, since he's always "thinking." Or maybe he realizes he can't die yet, which goes back to the point that was made by some re: the bullet that seemed to hit him yet had no impact during the "LaFleur" episode. I do have another urgent question about Sawyer, though.

Liz: Yes, he's hot. Oh, that's not the question...?

Jen: Not today. And if it was, it would be rhetorical. My question is this: how does he manage to keep his quips and nicknames retro-appropriate? I noticed that he used the terms "Kong" and "Quickdraw," which are fine for '77. But how does he stop himself from, say, busting out an Ewok reference? Or referring to someone as Chandler Bing? It would totally blow his cover, so it's impressive that he has such discipline over his sarcasm.

Liz: That is a great point, Chandler... I mean Jen. He's obviously just that good. So should we talk about the other kid -- evil Harry Potter?

Jen: Yes, please. I will point out the obvious first. He offered Sayid a sandwich, then apologized for the lack of mustard. Clearly the meat on that sandwich was ... ham. Actually, I watched that scene twice, praying Ben had said there was ham on the sandwich. And he didn't. But the thought of ham led me to pork, which led me to pigs, which led me to Piggy from "Lord of the Flies." And that made me wonder if Ben is our Piggy in "Lost": a character everyone loathes but who ultimately teaches them something important about their natures.

Liz: There you go. The ham proves Ben is ultimately good!

Jen: It's true!

Liz: Not buying it. Based strictly on gut feeling, that kid was a creep. He didn't go there to offer Sayid a sandwich. He went to check him out. And I'll bet you another thing -- I bet he knows Sayid isn't a Hostile because he's already in cahoots with the Hostiles.

Jen: Possible. See, I have my theories, but I remain open-minded. I'm a thinker. And a reader. And a lover, not a fighter.

Liz: To make sure everyone is accounted for -- where do you think Faraday has gotten to? He's no longer with the Dharmas, though we know he was with Sawyer and crew when they first arrived and we know he was at the worksite near the Donkey Wheel at some point.

Jen: Well, when Jack asked "Is Faraday here?" I believe Sawyer said he was but was gone now. I didn't know if "gone" meant missing, dead, in Tahiti or what.

Liz: Right. Hopefully we'll find out soon. Some readers posit that he turned the Donkey Wheel himself.

Jen: Could be. Some other retro details: The paintings at the Flame station looked like they might hold some fun clues. I wasn't able to make them out clearly, so hopefully a screencap will surface. Also, I tried to pause my DVR and discern the Dharma jobs printed on Kate's and Hurley's suits. But no luck. However, I noticed Kate's was blue. So maybe she'll be working on cars alongside Juliet. Awk-ward.

Liz: Kate's did in fact read "motor pool," though I missed Hurley's. You had some thoughts about that manifest Juliet altered, no?

Jen: Well, I had some thoughts that relate back to the manifest The Others had when the Losties eventually showed up. Remember, Ben had all kinds of info on Jack, Kate and Sayid, etc. That's because he had started gathering it back in the 1970s. This also may explain why The Others wanted to kidnap Jack, Kate and Sawyer at the end of season two. They knew how crucial they were.

Liz: Which is breathtaking considering that the writers have had to retrofit the story to mesh with the earlier episodes. Well done -- much like one reader's mention last week that the corpse of Christian Shephard was in fact wearing sneakers in the very first episode.

But poor Hurley -- so marginalized.

Jen: Well, they grabbed Hurley, too. But then they threw him back, remember? So he probably caused less trouble circa '77 than the other three.

Liz: Right -- he was dispatched to warn the Losties to stay away. Ready to jump over to the other island?

Jen: Hang on, bracing myself for the time shift. Okay, let's ... go!

Liz: We learned a few things tonight -- who took the dugout boat (Sun and Frank), why Ben was among the injured (Sun totally clocked him) and that something is utterly amiss on the main island in 2007.

Jen: Yeah, the barracks were a total mess.

Liz: Banged-up Ben seemed to be mending in record time. He threw off his sling and was ready to paddle across the open sea to the main island. Is this island healing at work or was he maybe not so injured after all?

Jen: I presumed that was island healing. Once he was there, he knew he would be okay again.

Liz: Though he was, technically, on the other island. It was also interesting -- at least to me -- to note that Frank made a big speech about being responsible for the crash survivors, then promptly took off with Sun once Ben was out of the way. I don't doubt his motivation, it was just an odd choice for the captain to desert his ship, so to speak. Or he might be intending to go right back to the other island. But that may not be so easy considering the run in with Christian Shephard.

Jen: Yeah, that's a good point. But maybe he considers the Oceanics his "people" and therefore thought it was more important to stick with Sun.

Always nice to see Christian Shephard, isn't it? That guy just always has to make an entrance. You know, you can come into the picture, Christian, without looking all shadowy and blowing wind around and stuff like that. Sheesh. My feeling was that Christian plans to send them to '77, too. Did you sense that?

Liz: Oh, totally. If not "send them," at least "send them on their way." And speaking of spooky, some are positing that Claire was seen in the background during that scene. Here's a fuzzy screen grab. But the whole otherworldly entrance, the hint of the smoke monster, the whispering voices -- something is seriously wrong on the island. It reminded me of the entrance to Hades -- desolate, dangerous and forsaken. Kind of makes you wonder where the rest of the Others -- who we were led to believe are awaiting Locke somewhere -- actually are.

Liz: Oh, was Hades like that the last time you visited? Because I found it rather pleasant and colorful.

Liz: I was picturing it as I read about it last year when re-reading tales from Greek mythology. You know, I was reading. And thinking.

Jen: Right. And good question about the Others. I just wonder whose side Christian is on, or what he is trying to achieve. Why is he suddenly so helpful? Is he Jacob? Or is he just a dead guy in white sneakers helping out because he has nothing better to do?

Liz: He certainly seemed helpful tonight, though I don't know that John would have described him quite that way when he had to drag himself to the Frozen Donkey Wheel with a compound fracture in one leg.

Speaking of which -- we didn't get any Locke tonight. Here's hoping John resurfaces next week. Things are always a little more interesting when he's around.

Jen: And for the sake of some very concerned readers, I do hope we find out where Bernard and Rose are. Otherwise, these people may never sleep again. But I am sure we'll discuss that again in this week's chat at 3 p.m. today.

Liz: Until then, namaste.

Jen: Namaste back at you. And please... have a ham sandwich on me.

Liz: Sure, maybe just as soon as I give up the whole vegetarian thing, Ben.

Quote of the Week:

"I thought you trusted this guy." -- Frank to Sun re: Ben.

"I lied." -- Sun.

Next Week: "He's Our You" - Things begin to unravel when one of the survivors goes rogue and takes matters into their own hands -- risking the lives of everyone on the island

By Liz Kelly  | March 19, 2009; 9:36 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Hello! The last time Sawyer saw any of these people, he was selflessly jumping out of a helicopter to save their lives so that they could get off the island. Did anyone say thanks last night? I certainly didn't hear it! No wonder he's a little sour.

Posted by: allison777 | March 19, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

Here's my question: Why didn't Sun land in 1977 with the rest of the Oceanic 6? Do you suppose the Island has a task for her first? Could it be upset she didn't bring the child back with her?

Sawyer was very nice last night. Hair looked especially clean.

Posted by: hodie | March 19, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

I am interesting in seeing what impact Sayid will have on young Ben. In fact, I wonder if Sayid will tell young Ben about some of his (Ben's) deeds as an adult, and if that is something that starts his path into darkness: wiping out the Dharmas, recruiting the others, etc. I suspect that Sayid is going to determine that he has to kill young Ben to prevent future Ben from committing all those crimes.

Last night Christian indicated that Sun would have to go on a long journey to get to Jin. I wonder if she will have to travel to many different timestreams to get to him. I also wonder about how all of them will get back to the present time. Sure that Locke will have something to do with getting the 1977 losties and 2007 losties back on the same track.

Posted by: NW_Washington | March 19, 2009 10:56 AM | Report abuse

I think I know why Sun and Ben are in 2007. Maybe the rules of time travel (according to Lost) prevent the same person from being in the same place as another version of themselves. We know Ben is on the island in 1977. Maybe Sun is too, as the baby to Chang or in some yet unexplained capacity. If this is the case, than the rules say that they cannot travel to 1977...they could serve as the link for the others to get back to 2007.

Also, this may help explain why Charlotte’s body was left behind…because they had arrived in a time that she was already in (albeit a younger version of herself).

Posted by: authorofpoetry | March 19, 2009 11:05 AM | Report abuse

My thoughts on why Sun didn't jump to 1977. What seperates her from the rest of the O6? 1. Locke did not try to get her to return to the Island, 2. She had a baby.
I am not sure how either of those things would cause her to be out of sync with the Island or the O6. So my theory is, Sun wasn't allowed to land on the Island because she moved the donkey wheel. She may not have done it yet but I believe some time in her future she will be in the Island's past and turn the wheel. Because she did this thing in the past, the Island will not allow future Sun to land on it. If I am right, this means that she will travel back in time to sometime after the original plane crash and her return and in that time period she will move the wheel.

Posted by: L8yF8 | March 19, 2009 11:06 AM | Report abuse

Hurley's job is "chef" according to his jumpsuit.

Posted by: ah___ | March 19, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Technically, I don't think Sawyer said Faraday was "gone." Jack asked, "Faraday is here?" And Sawyer said "Not anymore." (Though there may be no real difference -- six of one...)

Posted by: Janine1 | March 19, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Btw, do we actually know that the Ajira plane landed in 2007? We know it's not 1977, but how do we know it's the present time and not another time jump?

Posted by: Dr_Bob | March 19, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, I want to know why Sun didn't flash back to 1977. It was fun to see her clobber Ben, anyway.

Posted by: csteiger | March 19, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Can I make a request for Liz and Jen to stop using spoilers (or rumors) within their analysis? Can't we talk/read about what you guys think about the show without having to see any rumors about main characters dying? It is always very fun to read, and I really appreciate all the work you guys put into this. You have never done this in the past, so I am wondering why you are doing it now?

I didn't click the link, and I didn't read last week's chat, because as soon as you mentioned it, I stop reading because I don't want to see that stuff. I think there is a difference between talking (in detail) about your theories, or guesses, as to what will happen versus talking about the actual rumors, or spoilers, or even discussing who is listed in future cast lists. Does anyone else agree with this?

Posted by: japhy_ryder | March 19, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

--Maybe the rules of time travel (according to Lost) prevent the same person from being in the same place as another version of themselves.--

I don't think so. Sawyer, Locke, et al traveled to the night Aaron was born and Locke found the hatch, even though they were already there in Season 1.

Posted by: emfzlx | March 19, 2009 11:26 AM | Report abuse

Okay, couple of comments:
1) Juliette had no disgust for Ethan - they were FRIENDS when they were in New Otherton together. When the original plane crashed, wasn't he working on something on her house? I think her expression was more shock and recognition.
2) We know that the second plane crashed in 2007 because the screen said "30 years earlier" just moments before Sawyer told Jack, Kate, & Hurley that it was 1977.
3) Best line of the night, at 9:05 "Uh, what?"

Posted by: CowgirlAdrift | March 19, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

I didn't get the impression that Faraday was literally "gone," but was figuratively "not there" (aka, a sandwich short of a sack lunch, lights on but nobody's home, a few quarts low, etc.). We know that Faraday was pretty addled when they arrived at Dharma in 1974. Doubtful that his psychiatric make-up has improved much in the 3 years hence, knowing what he knows about Dharma and its future. With Faraday working as a laborer in the Orchid Station construction, I think it's a safe bet that our Daniel will be heavily involved in trying to get the Losties to a better song on the record.

Fortunately, Lindelof and Cuse have indicated that we'll be getting heaping helpings of Faraday (and his history) and Miles (and his history) before the two-hour finale.

And was it just me, or was Benjamin Linus (adult model) acting particularly weird and creepy last night?

Posted by: MsGandhi | March 19, 2009 11:29 AM | Report abuse

To hodie and L8yF8:
I, too, wonder why Sun is not w/ the rest of the O6 in 1977 on the Dharma Island. Worse, when she arrives at the Dharma Island, the first person she runs into is Christian Shepherd. I worry if that means Sun will die. So many of the people who have been “with” Christian (Locke, Michael, & Claire) now appear to be dead (however that term is defined on “Lost”). My guess is that since Sun, like Claire, had a baby related to the island, Sun may not be allowed to “live.” If what appears to be a figure behind Sun in the Barracks meeting w/ Christian turns out to be Claire, then I’m even more worried about Sun’s F8, L8y.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 19, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

My favorite line of last night was when Sawyer asked about his bulldog sweatshirt and Juliett said, "It's in the wash." That was a perfect real domestic moment.

Posted by: L8yF8 | March 19, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Did LOST jump the shark last night? That conversation in the living room was completely stupid. When I've been away from work for one week on vacation there is more catching up. "OMG! Here's what I did...! What did you do...? What did I miss...? Here's what you need to know...!"

Last night, after three years of waiting, sending Locke down a dirt-filled well, all we get is:
"I got 'us' off the island."
"Well, I'm gonna read a book."


Posted by: a68comeback | March 19, 2009 11:41 AM | Report abuse

A ham sandwich doesn't seem appropriate for Sayid who is probably Muslim (even if he seems to be a mite back-slidden).

I do like the donkey-wheel theory as the reason why Sun can only travel to "present-day" island, but... she hasn't actually gone back in time and turned it yet. Maybe the island won't let her be separated from her daughter. I'm assuming that island Claire is destined to live real-time on the island with Aaron.

Posted by: GodFamilyNation | March 19, 2009 11:42 AM | Report abuse

***Re: japhy_ryder:
Your point about spoilers and innuendo regarding future episodes is very valid, but it’s Liz & Jen’s column and I say let ’em do what they want. Providing this forum for “Lost” fans is such a great service (and probably very time-consuming on their part) that they should feel free to express themselves as they want. It’s their prerogative (Both Bobby Brown and Britney Spears back me up on that last point, and who could ask for any higher authority?!)

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 19, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

i.e. Claire and Sun aren't allowed to jump to a different time zone without their kids...

Posted by: GodFamilyNation | March 19, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

So Sun, who is the only one of the O6 who has a real reason to go back to the island, gets left in 2007--that's just cold, island. But it seems like the island/Christian has a job for her. Which is interesting because Sun probably knows more about the island than any of the other O6--she's had contact with Widmore and knows there is a larger power struggle going on.

Whatever the reason, I love angry, vengeful Sun and I'm glad we get to see her longer.

Posted by: wojoko | March 19, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

I think Juliet absolutely looked at baby Ethan with disgust. Prior to Juliet coming to the island Ethan spied on her and her sister, which she later realized, and she always seemed to think he was creepy after that.

Posted by: wojoko | March 19, 2009 11:55 AM | Report abuse

Last night it appears that Ethan Rom is the son of Horace and Amy Goodspeed, which raises many questions for me (see end of this post). I don’t think Amy’s maiden name is ever given. Also, we don’t know for sure she is Dharma. I say that b/c when she’s first introduced, she and her then-husband are being held at gunpoint by The Others in 1974. The husband is executed by The Others and Amy is about to be shot, too, when Juliet and Sawyer intervene. By 1977 she is married to Horace and gives birth to a son, who was conceived and delivered on the island. (I didn’t think that could happen!) Before she allows her husband’s body to be taken by The Others in 1974, she takes an Ankh necklace, an Egyptian symbol, from her husband’s neck. How was Ethan able to be conceived and born on the island? Why isn’t his last name Goodspeed? Is Rom a pseudonym, punning on the computer term? Is Rom an Egyptian term, linking Ethan & Amy to The Others, who may have an Egyptian connection? Any answers anyone?

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 19, 2009 12:03 PM | Report abuse

Why didn't Sun get transported to 1977? Everyone one else from the O6 that was on the plane was transported but not her. Isn't this important to understand? But you gals AND Doc Jensen don't mention this fact.

Also, maybe Christian didn't help Locke because he he is not a physical being. I mean, have we sesen him actually touch anyone after his death?

Posted by: Dougmacintyre | March 19, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

I think the reference to Faraday was meant to indicate that he is mentally gone, not physically gone. The last time we saw him he was muttering to himself after having taken a look at a small redheaded child he assumed to be Charlotte. That appears to have sent him over the edge - at least temporarily.

Posted by: GlennSG | March 19, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

Dang emfzlx, why did you need to bring that up and debunk my theory? Haha! Your point is valid. Maybe it has something to do with not being able to travel into a time that is no longer shifting. When Sawyer saw Kate and Claire, they were only 'stopping by' that time but had Sun and Ben traveled to 1977 and stayed there, then you run the risk of creating a paradox...I may be reaching here but I did like my theory.

Posted by: authorofpoetry | March 19, 2009 12:09 PM | Report abuse

This was a great episode. Juliet's initial reaction to news of the O6 return was spot on, as was the fact that icy, calculating Juliet returns in about 30 seconds; Sawyer's character transformation is both plausible and interesting.

But here's something that desperately needs addressing: 2007 Ben knows the future. That runway was built in 2004 in exactly the place the plane needed it in 2007, so Ben could land safely. That was totally something out of "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure." Ben knew that he would need a runway there, and built one.

He also knew Sun was going to whack him on the head. He turned his back to her and spouted off the very information she needed to know (re: where the dock was on the other side of the channel). Ben's not an idiot, or someone who blabs important information without wanting anything in return -- he did that on purpose.

Judging from Emerson's acting, Ben also totally knows where Jack et al. went, and probably knows why Sun didn't go back.

So, how does Ben know the future? Did he travel forward and then back in time? Is he getting that information from someone else? He can't be from the future because we know he grew up in the 1970s. Also, why is Ben's knowledge of what's going to happen in 2004-2007 imperfect? He was totally surprised when his "daughter" was killed, because Widmore "changed the rules." He seemed to believe up to that point that there was zero chance that she would be shot -- i.e., that he knew the future and she was in it.

Posted by: charodon | March 19, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, my comment about Sun not being transported was a repeat of what was already being talked about, but when I got on, I could only see 1 comment. Sometimes the Post system doesn't allow you to see all the comments unless you post a comment!

Posted by: Dougmacintyre | March 19, 2009 12:12 PM | Report abuse

This episode explained a lot for me, in terms of Ben's interest in certain survivors from the beginning. We've seen that Widmore remembers meeting Locke in the 50s and Charlotte remembered Daniel from when she was a child. So, assuming that young Ben was in contact with Juliet during her three years in the 70s, that explains a big part of his fixation on her and why he was so determined to get her on the island (I'm remembering her backstory episode). It also explains why he has always seemed familiar with Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Hurley, and Jin. And finally, Sayyid who I definitely think was weighing whether or not he should kill young Ben (that was a great moment).

The other significant element, to me, was the fact that Christian Shepard appeared to Sun and Frank at all. He's only really seen by a select few: the "gifted" ones who are Ben, Hurley, and Locke and his offspring: Claire and Jack. And, his role seems to be to make sure that certain events that are important to the grand scheme, I assume. So, now I want to know why reuniting Jin and Sun is important enough to warrant Christian Shepard's intervention. It makes me remember the look on Ben's face when he found out that Jin was alive before they all flew back. It was one of the few times he seemed GENUINELY caught off guard and that has to be important.

Posted by: linz2 | March 19, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

The last time we saw Faraday, at least in terms of time-line, he was working for Dharma at the newly found Donkey Wheel. He seemed like he had most of his wits about him there.

Sawyer's lines about him made it seem like he'd gone off to do some time-traveling. He's gotta get them kids to kiss at the Fish Under the Sea dance.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | March 19, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

Jen, Liz: Thanks for the analysis but again, PLEASE STOP BLURTING OUT SPOILERS WITH NO WARNING! We know you're TV reporters and you can find out inside show info, and of course anyone can troll imdb and find out who's appearing when. But most of us aren't trying to "cheat" that way, we're trying to enjoy the show as it airs. Not everyone is the type of person who reads the last five pages of a book first to find how it ends, okay?

Posted by: UniqueID | March 19, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

I echo hodie's sentiment, and shame on you Liz and Jen for not mentioning it! Why why why is Sun the only one from the Oceanic Six who did not go back in time?? Nobody addresses this in the Doc Jenson chat either. I don't get it, that was the question that stood out for me the most last night. But that could be because I want Jin and Sun to find eachother again so so badly...

Posted by: kirkpatrickkg | March 19, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse

well well well, someone goes "rogue" next week, do they? I'm betting it's good ol' Kate. At the checking I was waiting for Juliet to tell her "and your job will be...let's see here...STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM SAWYER, SKANK!"

Posted by: Sam888 | March 19, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Christian must have physical form, to judge from how he was handling that old framed photograph.

Posted by: csteiger | March 19, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Dougmacintyre: "Also, maybe Christian didn't help Locke because he he is not a physical being. I mean, have we sesen him actually touch anyone after his death?"

I thought that too, but now I'm having doubts. Last night, didn't we see him open the door? (And Doc Jensen pointed out that he carried a flashlight.) And I can't remember whether we saw him holding Aaron in the episode where Claire joined him.

Posted by: Janine1 | March 19, 2009 12:17 PM | Report abuse

jeez people; liz and jen (although they NEVER answer my questions during the chat) are getting too much grief about the spoilers in their analysis. They do actually say when they are going to give a spoiler alert and they have addressed this in previous analyses by rightly saying that if you're going to follow a detailed analysis/blog/whatever about such a popular show then you have to be ready for certain spoiler alerts. If you don't want to see spoiler alerts or read theories that may turn out to be accurate, then don't read the chats. Plus it's not as if they are revealing top-secret information, I'm pretty sure that everything they 'spoil' is within the public domain.

Posted by: seanbredbenner | March 19, 2009 12:20 PM | Report abuse

re: Sun and Jin in different time periods

It's a soap opera, people. Couples can't reunite happily and successfully until there's at least a cliffhanger episode.
And even if they eventually do reunite, their kid is still off-island so how happy are they going to be anyway?

Posted by: olivertray | March 19, 2009 12:25 PM | Report abuse

csteiger, good eye -- Christian has some sort of physical form.

Posted by: charodon | March 19, 2009 12:27 PM | Report abuse

Spoilers? About Lost? That's a bit of an oxymoron. This show has more twists and turns than the Pacific Coast Highway.

Posted by: lebowski | March 19, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Here's the thing, and correct me if I'm wrong. In order to return to the present time, don't they only need to align the Stargate so that the wormhole travels through a sun, and thereby shifts them in space-time? Or was that shifts them into a different dimension... hmm... Maybe that won't work. But if they have a time traveling donkey wheel, should we really be surprised to find a Stargate on the island if we just looked hard enough?

Posted by: hiberniantears | March 19, 2009 12:38 PM | Report abuse

On Frank, I don't have a problem with him leaving his passengers and accompanying Sun to the main island, because he knows this isn't any old desert island. He knows he can't just sit back and wait to be rescued by search planes, because they're not going to find them. His best chance to help the passengers is to go to the main island with Sun and try to contact the outside world.

BUT, where Frank's actions were really questionable was when Jack et al got on the plane a few episodes back and Frank asked rhetorically, "We're not going to Guam, are we?" Knowing this, and knowing people on the plane would likely die as before, he should have flown way around the normal flight path. Complacently going along with Jack's plan to get back to the island caused his copilot's death, at the very least.

Posted by: UniqueID | March 19, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Per the Barracks being a mess - remember, the last time we saw them (in the current, 2000ish time stream), Ben unleashed the Smoke Monster upon them as vengeance for the death of Alex.

I'm thinking no one ever went back.

Posted by: Chasmosaur1 | March 19, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

ok, new theory, gonna go off the deep end and tie in all this Eygptian stuff:

So the island is this ancient mystical place where a bunch of seemingly immortal people live led by Alpert. The "Lost" bunch (primarily the Oceanic 6 and maybe some others) may have in former lives been part of this immortal community. The island is now calling them back(unbeknownst to them) to defend against those who have discovered and will exploit the Island's powers (the Dharma initiative). They have recruited mercenaries, like young Ben, to do their dirty work but it now appears that they may have done a deal with the Devil and are having a hard time getting rid of him. I think if the losties are still there at the time of the purge, they will have something to do with it themselves if they don't do it sooner (thinking of next week's preview). I think they will all eventually have to "die" to return to their old immortal beings. Not sure where Locke fits in. It seems that the others who have died and were seen again were more "spiritual" whereas we know that Locke also came back in the physical. Its out there, I know but I keep readin' and thinkin'...

Posted by: hodie | March 19, 2009 12:44 PM | Report abuse

I want to know if the 1997 future has somehow been changed by what the Losties have done or will do back in 1977. New Otherton did not look like the New Otherton that I remember. The buildings were all boarded up and abandoned, the dock was falling apart, and there was Dharma stuff all over the place (signs, the pictures, etc.). It almost looked like Ben and the Others never took over the place post purge. Did the 1991 purge not happen?

Posted by: mastroj | March 19, 2009 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Is it me, or does it seem that only the Oceanic 6 to time travel back to 1977 are the ones that Locke met with, except for Ben (for whom rules don't apply)? What is the significance of that? Does Sun not get to meet her husband again until she meets with John?

Posted by: pisham | March 19, 2009 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Little Ben was indeed creepy and in that screenshot, he's got his eyes open wide just like old Ben does when he's being psychotic.

I wish Kate had been left in 2007 and that Sun got transported to 1977, but would she really be able to reunite with Jin as she wanted? There'd be a lot of questions about how they know each other.

I've been thinking about the flashes and their occurances. Before Locke reset the Donkey Wheel, it seemed that the time in between flashes was a bit erratic, but the flashes seemed to hold out until something was accomplished during that time period. Faraday found Desmond, FLASH! Juliet shot the other in the outrigger, FLASH! Faraday told Ellie to bury the bomb and Locke introduced himself to RA, FLASH! Sawyer saw Claire give birth, FLASH! Charlotte died, FLASH! Locke started down the whole, FLASH! They saw the statue, FLASH!

The people in 1977 obviously have things to accomplish in that time (imo, I think Sayid has to kill, or attempt to kill, Ben. Juliet had to deliver Ethan, etc). Sun has more to accomplish in 2007 before she can go back, whether it's turning the wheel, reconstructing newOtherton, or whatever. Locke has already accomplished everything in the past, his duty is now in 2007, probably to become the true leader of the Others.

I've also been thinking about what Widmore said about the impending war. I don't believe it's a direct war between Widmore and Ben or The Others vs. Dharma. I believe it's The Island vs. Ben. Between the strained relationship with Jacob, the failed murder of Locke, the getting kicked off from the wheel. Widmore, as a protector of the Island, is participating in the war, but I think he's more of a soldier than a commander. Since the Island couldn't get rid of adult Ben, they're sending the Lostaways back in time to deal with him then.

Phew, I hope that made sense.

And I'm questioning Miles' ability. Did he lose his "Mr. I Talk To Dead People" skills during the flashes? Wouldn't he have been able to communicate with Paul to figure out the details of his death at the hands of the Others? Kind of strange....

Posted by: eet7e | March 19, 2009 12:47 PM | Report abuse

I am curious about Faraday... I wonder if he left on one of the submarines to build the Lamppost??

Posted by: choeynanna | March 19, 2009 12:47 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and I think Faraday bites it sometime between 74 and 77 and we'll see how in a future episode.

Though choeynanna also has a good point, as he might be the "very clever man" who designed the pendulum.

Radzinsky was building a model of the Swan. I wonder what he knows....

Posted by: eet7e | March 19, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

I'd like to see Desmond reappear. He's actually a major (and likeable) character, unlike Frogurt, Vincent, Rose, Bernard, etc. Do people really keep asking about smug know-it-all Rose and whiny Bernard?

Posted by: UniqueID | March 19, 2009 12:53 PM | Report abuse

mastroj: That is what I thought happened as well. The place looked completely abandoned, post-Dharma. It was as if they were seeing what Christian (Jacob?) wanted them to see...or, in the alternative, the 1977 Losties changed the "rules," and changed time, thus the purge never happened, the Others never took over Dharma-ville, etc.

And I have to disagree with Jen. I do not think Sawyer was being a jerk to Jack, I think it was presumptuous of Jack to expect to return and become the leader and "fix" everything. Full disclosure, I am on Team Sawyer. Jack is at a loss right now, the only place he had purpose, really, was on the island where he made decisions, led everybody, and everybody depended on him. Post-island, he was a mess, drug addled, and lost without a mission. Locke and Ben led him to believe that if he went back to the island, he would again have purpose and again fix things. He didn't count on Sawyer now being the leader and fixing things...I think he was thrown, and I think we are going to see a big Sawyer/Jack showdown.

Posted by: bmmarr | March 19, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

As enjoyable as it was to see Sawyer slap Jack down - and I agree with his characterization of Jack merely reacting - I don't think Sawyer's own attitude is 100% correct either. And I don't think we're meant to think so. It seems like he's become a little too comfort-loving in the past three years. He has a cozy situation and he doesn't like Jack and Sayid showing up and threatening his idyllic desert isle suburban existence.

Meanwhile Sayid is languishing in jail. Yeah, he's "safe," but that's still not an ideal situation. And where his self-comparison to Churchill breaks down is that Sawyer KNOWS this cozy lifestyle can't continue indefinitely or even for very long. To just keep plugging along pretending the only issue is how to integrate Sayid and the others into Dharma is deliberately refusing to confront the elephant in the living room, the impending massacre.

Posted by: UniqueID | March 19, 2009 1:12 PM | Report abuse

The prohibition against anyone returning to the island, after that person has turned the wheel, seems to be a matter of custom alone, as it doesn't seem Ben is too scared to stay away from the island.

Or is the prohibition a result of someone turning the wheel not being able to return to the same time they were in when they turned it?

Posted by: kingcranky | March 19, 2009 1:16 PM | Report abuse

True, there is an impending massacre, in 14 years. While I completely agree that Sawyer is just as flawed as every other character on this show, I think the real issue the Losties will have to deal with in 1977 is not the purge in 1991 (or 1992, I forget), but how to get back to their own time without messing up the whole world's timeline. They must know they don't belong there, not just because of the impending massacre.

I do think that seeing Dharma-ville abandoned and wrecked shows us that they may have avoided the Purge, but brought on another massacre (perhaps the war Widmore alluded to when he spoke to Locke?).

Posted by: bmmarr | March 19, 2009 1:18 PM | Report abuse

I bet Sayid in the end is going to team with young Ben and help kill the Dharma Initiative. Always Ben's accomplice, maybe not willingly, but I believe that is his purpose.

And I loved how Sun clocked Ben. She should have swatted him a few more times for good measure.

Posted by: SameDifference | March 19, 2009 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Check this site out..its a great theory on whats actually is going on.

Posted by: rdy4all2000 | March 19, 2009 1:30 PM | Report abuse

I don't think that Dharma-ville being abandoned has anything to do with the purge, but that it's 2007 and that no one has been living at Dharma-ville for three years.

Remember, it's the end of 2004 when the O6 get onto the helicopter. Ben turns the wheel, the island disappears, and the O6 spend three years in "real time" before succeeding in return. Meanwhile, on the island, our Losties (Locke, Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Daniel, Charlotte) are time-jumping all over the place and don't live those three years until they get to 1974 after Locke jumps down the well and turns/stops the Donkey Wheel from spinning.

The questions are: what has happened to the Second Tier Losties (Bernard, Rose, etc.) when the island was moved. How did Ben know that the boats - and they are Ajira Air boats from that episode where our Losties time jumped to the beach, briefly - were there? I think that Ben has been able to come and go from the island more easily than we think, but I don't know what his crinkle in time travel is yet.

Posted by: CentreOfNowhere1 | March 19, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

True, bmmarr, that the massacre isn't the main thing that immediately threatens Sawyer et al. Good point, thanks. "The Incident" is more likely to propel Sawyer into another time (where he belongs). I don't seem him and the rest hanging out in Dharma all through the 80s.

On Ben meeting Sayid, I thought it was just his curiosity about the Hostiles and his desire to join them at work. He's probing Sayid as he'd like to know how he can join them. He hates his father and likely Dharma as well Has he yet seen his dead mother outside the barrier?

Posted by: UniqueID | March 19, 2009 1:37 PM | Report abuse

"I don't think that Dharma-ville being abandoned has anything to do with the purge, but that it's 2007 and that no one has been living at Dharma-ville for three years."

True, but I think the earlier commenter is on to something. The Others had been living in the compound for some time (up to 10 years, though we don't know how soon they moved in after the purge), with their perfectly civilized ham dinners and book clubs, but in 2007 we see the old "Processing" and other Dharma signs still hanging. We've never seen that before, and surely the Others had cleaned all that up when they moved in. So in the timeline in which the Ajira plane crashed in 2007, it does look like the Others may never have moved in.

Posted by: Janine1 | March 19, 2009 1:44 PM | Report abuse

I'm seeing something different w/Jack than everyone else. At the end of their conversation Sawyer is talking about being in charge & says, 'ain't that a relief?' I think Sawyer is very surprised when Jack's response is, 'Yeah'.

It seems Jack has changed to some extent. He may not be a man of faith yet but he's definitely more willing to wait and see.

We also need to remember that Sawyer's specialty pre-island was the long con. He was patient enough to wait a long time for the ultimate pay off. Maybe that's what he's doing at Dharma, pulling the ultimate long con.

Posted by: jes11 | March 19, 2009 1:55 PM | Report abuse

I think Sun didn't go back to '77 with rest because she was no longer pregnant and obviously wasn't going to bring her kid. Faraday's mom stated unless all the original survivors were on the flight and the results would be unpredictable.

Posted by: croaker69 | March 19, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

Yes!! Folks c'mon take it eazy.. Jen & Liz should do what they want.. and if they are giving out spoilers I've seen them Warn.. and there is no mention or no agreement that this analysis shall or shall not include spoilers.. so if you think this is a spoiler blog and you wudnt wanna be here then so.. but c'mon 2 weeks ago everyone picked on how much unnecessary chatting they did and poor their analysis it was.. i see its like improved now.. read the analysis again.. therez so much info that one wudnt have caught even after being a lost fan and learning to "observe" instead of watching TV. Its such a hard task to critic LOST.. they dont need another audience to critic their work now.. So Liz and Jen, I think you are doing a great job. Keeep it coming and I think you should talk what you feel like it as long as it involves more LOST then personaly jabbery! LOL!!

Posted by: thetruckguy | March 19, 2009 1:58 PM | Report abuse

Two things:

If Lil' Ben meets Sayid while he's still Lil' Ben, then surely he knows who Sayid is before Sayid beats the snot out him when he;s Big Ben in Season 2 (I think) and all the rest of the Losties will be familiar to him when they show up since he met them as a child, only not yet. You know?

2 -- I think I saw whoever it is who plays Charles Widmore as the Australian Ambassador on The Flight of the Conchords.

Posted by: bethesdaguy | March 19, 2009 2:05 PM | Report abuse

I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice that those looked like the ruins of Dharmaville, not New Otherton. There was no indication that the Others had ever lived there.

On another note, if James, et al. are still on the Island at the time of the purge (early 90s?), then it is clear that there are only two possibilities -- either they join up with the Hostiles/Others, or they end up in the Dharma deathpit.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 19, 2009 2:11 PM | Report abuse

Regarding whether adult-Ben recognized or already knew the Losties based on having seen them as a child in 1977 ... wouldn't Ben only "remember" having met them as a child in 2007? As of 2004 (or whenever the original plane crashed), the Losties hadn't gone back to 1977, and had never met Ben. I thought that their 1977 encounter only becomes part of the fabric of Ben's memory in 2007, after the Losties go back in time. ... Which sort of suggests that Ben could be sitting on the Hydra island in 2007, post-Ajira crash, having "memory" flashes of his childhood which actually depict what is going on across the street at the main island. ... My brain hurts - no wonder this causes nosebleeds.

Posted by: DCnative8 | March 19, 2009 2:16 PM | Report abuse

I do have to disagree about those who think Jack was OK with his diminished status. That is not Jack.

Jack has to be in charge. Jack always has to be in charge. Indeed, Jack was back to his old tricks of being in charge with information, brushing off James when he asked about Locke's death.

And, both Jack and Kate being Jack and Kate, they are sure to rush into something without thinking and screwing everything up.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 19, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

I thought Dharmaville = New Otherton because the Others took over Dharmaville after the purge. Or, we can just call it The Barracks, like they do.

2 -- I think I saw whoever it is who plays Charles Widmore as the Australian Ambassador on The Flight of the Conchords.

Posted by: bethesdaguy | March 19, 2009 2:05 PM

He was also Bradford Meade on Ugly Betty. And Gen. Ross in the latest massacre of the Indiana Jones series. He's pretty accomplished.

Posted by: eet7e | March 19, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

"I think I saw whoever it is who plays Charles Widmore as the Australian Ambassador on The Flight of the Conchords."

Yep. I forgot about that, but IMDB confirms.

Other fun facts: though his breakthrough came in an Australian TV show, he is in fact from New Zealand (and therefore in on the Conchords' constant ribbing of Aussies).

Posted by: Janine1 | March 19, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

eet7e --

New Otherton WAS Dharmaville in past episodes, but it appeared last night that the Others were never there. Which would mean that the Purge did not occur and Dharmaville was simply abandoned by Dharma or, if it did occur, the Hostiles never bothered to move in and become the Others.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 19, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

Much as I love Lost, I do sense it has, if not actually jumped the shark, come very close to making the leap. The story lines are spinning out of control. The puzzles been broken into too many pieces and scattered too far. It's become so muddled that I can't see how it can be resolved in a logical fashion. The time paradox, especially, seems to be taking on water. Lindecuse are a couple of smart guys, but I don't see how they can pull this off with out disappointing a lot of fans with a Deus Ex Machina (or worse, a Dallas-esque "it's all been a dream")finale at the end of season 6.

Posted by: CafeBeouf | March 19, 2009 2:33 PM | Report abuse

So, like, who was president in 1977?

Posted by: droog9000 | March 19, 2009 2:38 PM | Report abuse

I'm curious to see how this Sawyer leadership experiment works out. His critique of Jack's leadership I found laughable considering: He repeatedly stole from corpses and extorted other survivors, assaulted Sun in order to get access to the guns, and generally did everything in his power to undermine the losties. He choose to follow Locke in Season 4, was he thinking then.

I find it very interesting that Jack fell apart in the 3 years since leaving the island. I believe it is because we couldn't handle the guilt of leaving Claire, and blaming himself for Jin's "death". Jack generally puts the needs of other's before his own. Sawyer is able to flourish because he has always looked out for himself. How much remorse does he feel for the man he murdered in Australia? Sawyer can move on because ultimately he is about Sawyer. How will the return of Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid effect his life with Dharma?

I think the character study is in how the characters deal with guilt and redemption more than how they react to change.

Posted by: apollo8234 | March 19, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

I have to agree with Cafe Beouf. The time travel thing is getting crazy, and I feel like there are so many open story lines that still haven't been resolved, and I wonder if they ever will be resolved. For example, was there ever resolution as to why the Others were terrorizing the Losties during the first couple seasons? Dressing up in weird masks, stealing kids, why Walt was special -- did we ever get an answer? And why the Others kidnapped Sawyer, Kate & Jack (seems like Juliet could have answered that by now since she was one of the captors). Of course there's still Richard Alpert, the smoke monster and Jacob, though those themes appear to still be relevant, so maybe they will be explained in upcoming episodes. I do like the idea of going back into the past to explain how we got to the present, but if the Losties' presence changes a past that we haven't even fully learned, then this whole thing will get too difficult to reconcile. I guess that's where "this is just a tv show" has to be the explanation.

Posted by: DCnative8 | March 19, 2009 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Technically, Locke had an open fracture. Compound means multiple fractures. FYI. ;-)

Posted by: tim30 | March 19, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

I'm glad someone else got the ham sandwich = Sayid is Muslim connection.

Little Creepy Ben is smart enough to be a little a-hole and give a Muslim some pork.

Posted by: chunche | March 19, 2009 2:51 PM | Report abuse

Well, presenting ham to people he wants to get to know better does seem to be a theme...

Posted by: Janine1 | March 19, 2009 2:57 PM | Report abuse

Droog9000 -- Jimmy Carter was president in 1977.

Posted by: scandibaby | March 19, 2009 3:07 PM | Report abuse

ooyah, I agree with you that Jack should have filled Sawyer in about Locke (and Hawking, Ben, etc.) But the flip side of that is Sawyer needed to share info too. Leader or not, he should have warned Jack to be ready to meet a young Ben, for instance! He should fill Jack in about Daniel. Actually both of them were very much at fault for getting into a p----ing match instead of sharing vital info. Jack was taking a big risk going there (and likely aroused Phil's suspicions, especially if Phil then saw Jack and Juliet hug out in the open) and they should have made the meeting more productive. Instead Sawyer insulted Jack then basically shoved him out the door.

And while I agree with you (and Sawyer) that Jack was formerly very bossy and officious, he does seem to be genuinely relieved now that the spotlight is on someone else. And apollo is dead right that Sawyer's in no position to criticize, as on-target as he may have been re Jack. He himself and his scams and thefts and selfishness were half of Jack's problem back in the day. And from what little we've seen of his leadership, he's quite Jack-like himself. He won't explain things to Miles when Miles asks, he just orders him around. He ignores Jin's obvious concern for Sun.

I don't think the show has good leaders, or is meant to. It has autocrats who refuse to explain anything but expect instant obedience. We saw it with Jack/Locke, and one being a poor leader didn't make the other a good one. The same thing is true with Jack/Sawyer. Ben, Widmore, Christian, likely Jacob; almost everyone in any position of authority immediately displays this behavior. Richard may be an exception, I haven't seen enough to be sure. And Penny seemed to be quite a reasonable employer, likely because she's a woman.

Posted by: UniqueID | March 19, 2009 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone else think Kate sucks now? Cuz i do.

Even now when's back on the island she's a total pill! She's not even hot anymore. When she was shower deprived and on the island she looked real good, now she just looks like she ate a poop sandwich all the time.

Posted by: SpikeiRule | March 19, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

With people switching roles (Jack/Sawyer) and acquiring analogies (Cesar/Jack, that marshall/Kate, Sayid/Kate, Locke/Christian, oh it goes on...), I wonder if Sayid will kill Li'l Ben and somebody else (Locke? Jack?) will then become the next Ben.

Posted by: HardyW | March 19, 2009 3:13 PM | Report abuse

Only after Inauguration Day -- if they arrived in early January, it was still Ford. (But I'm just being finicky.)

I assumed the previous commenter was kidding -- but maybe not?

Posted by: Janine1 | March 19, 2009 3:13 PM | Report abuse

I wonder if Christian is genuinely alive and corporeal and stuff, like Locke. Maybe Christian (and Locke) weren't really DEAD dead, maybe they were just 'mostly dead' like from the Princess Bride, and getting to the island brought them back.

Posted by: HardyW | March 19, 2009 3:31 PM | Report abuse

It really bugs me that Amy and Horace's son turned out to be Ethan. William Mapother was nowhere near 27 in age or looks during the first season.

Posted by: mlsl | March 19, 2009 3:39 PM | Report abuse

They could be simply "mostly dead" and they were resurrected for true love, or it could be that the Island is saying "to blave." And, as we all know, "to blave" means "to bluff."

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 19, 2009 3:42 PM | Report abuse

eet7e --

New Otherton WAS Dharmaville in past episodes, but it appeared last night that the Others were never there. Which would mean that the Purge did not occur and Dharmaville was simply abandoned by Dharma or, if it did occur, the Hostiles never bothered to move in and become the Others.

Posted by: ooyah32 | March 19, 2009 2:31 PM

Yeah, it just clicked to me about 10 minutes ago why it differed from New Otherton. I remembered the intake sign (I can't remember exactly what it said and don't feel like searching for a screengrab) was swinging in the breeze and the Others would have probably torn it down. And then there's the whole "Why would the Others have pictures of Dharma?"

Totally a Back to the Future vibe coming off this episode, though, what with the allusions to changing history and the picture of the Lostaways in the Dharma house.

Posted by: eet7e | March 19, 2009 4:26 PM | Report abuse


UniqueID noted:

“ooyah, I agree with you that Jack should have filled Sawyer in about Locke (and Hawking, Ben, etc.) But the flip side of that is Sawyer needed to share info too. Leader or not, he should have warned Jack to be ready to meet a young Ben, for instance! He should fill Jack in about Daniel. Actually both of them were very much at fault for getting into a p----ing match instead of sharing vital info. . . . I don't think the show has good leaders, or is meant to. It has autocrats who refuse to explain anything but expect instant obedience. We saw it with Jack/Locke, and one being a poor leader didn't make the other a good one. The same thing is true with Jack/Sawyer.”

I agree. And this has been the modus operandi of _Lost_ from the beginning. Instead of people talking and sharing info to solve mysteries/problems, _Lost_ characters get more lost by keeping secrets, going rogue, and failing to communicate, in general; all of which causes more conflict & problems. Art imitating life? That depends on your view of humankind. To me it’s been a bit of a cheap way to create more drama and create more episodes. With the genius Lindelof and Cuse have shown in creating their _Lost_ world with its incredible depth of allusions and themes, I’m surprised they resort to these character “cheap tricks” at times to create drama. Yeah, I know all TV shows do it. But in all other ways that’s what makes _Lost_ special: it’s superior to the usual shows on TV.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 19, 2009 4:28 PM | Report abuse

SpikeiRule: What is a poop sandwich? I just think she looks like a meth addict in rehab. Especially when she is pacing on front porches at night.

Locke and Ben can't come back to the island because they turned the donkey wheel. Sun can't either because she WILL HAVE TURNED the donkey wheel at some point on her "journey" to find Jin.

Sayid will kill young Ben and prevent the purge so the series will end with some boring scene where the Dharma people trickle back to the mainland saying, "Well it was fun while it lasted."

Then Dr. Chang hands Kate a poop sandwich.

Posted by: a68comeback | March 19, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

UniqueID wrote: "On Ben meeting Sayid, I thought it was just his curiosity about the Hostiles and his desire to join them at work. He's probing Sayid as he'd like to know how he can join them. He hates his father and likely Dharma as well Has he yet seen his dead mother outside the barrier?"

I disagree. This is Ben, well, lil'Ben. Ben knows everything. He came to visit Sayid because lil'Ben knows Sayid from big Ben, just as Ben knew a plane would be crash landing and had an airstrip built (Lopedis was great "Is that an airstrip!?!"). Ben knew the outriggers would be where they were. I think Ben also know Sun would hit him and let it happen because he did not want her following him. I think Ben mind-trips back to his former life and so Ben is someone with accumulated knowledge all the way until he dies. Lil'Ben knows what is going on, who the Losties are, and is planning. He knows the Losties know his plan for 1991. This may be the war Widmore refered to. Sending the Losties back to 1977 to fight Ben on equal terms since both know the future.

And I suspect lil'Ben has already been in contact with Richard Alpert at this time. He looked older than the Ben who met Alpert in the woods in a previous episode. One thing bothers me though ... Richard did not recognize Sawyer. Richard seems to be moving through time normally, unaffected by flashes and not mind-tripping information back in time. Ben seems to be able to do these things. Why does Ben have abilities Richard does not? Maybe this is why Richard needs Ben to lead. Having someone who knows the future makes a great leader!

I think Jack agrees with Sawyer. People did die when Jack tried to lead. Jack is not trying to lead anymore. He's on the island for two reasons: Locke said he wished he had believed him and Locke said Jack's dad said hello. Jack is now a believer in Locke's vision of the island and is back to see his dad.

As for Sawyer, he's wised up. Still a survivor, he "thinks" now to survive. He has matured. Jack never matured. Jack drank and became depressed. Both Jack and Sawyer understand this now. Jack is a janitor, showing what Juliet, who forged the manifest, thinks of Jack. And Sawyer has wised up to Kate. She's a user and a loser. His look at he on the porch showed it, disappointment.

And I like the idea someone wrote saying the future "incident" will be the point where our Losties will go forward in time to 2007 and reunite. And I'm guessing lil'Ben or big Ben has something to do with it and will probably be the season finale. If true then the purge would still happen.

As for Sun, well, when Sun asked where Jin was I was expecting Christian Shepard to bring out a 60 year old Jin. I think she is stuck in 2007 because she did not talk to Locke, but Locke is in 2007 and she can find him and maybe then she will shift to 1977.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 19, 2009 4:55 PM | Report abuse

"I agree with you that Jack should have filled Sawyer in about Locke (and Hawking, Ben, etc.) But the flip side of that is Sawyer needed to share info too."

Seriously, people, when has anyone on Lost ever shared information openly? I mean, the whole show is built around people not communicating - you didn't see Locke saying "Hey, I've been healed!" or "Hey, I found a hatch out in the jungle!" back in the first season, that's just not the way Lost works.

Posted by: LizaBean | March 19, 2009 4:58 PM | Report abuse

As to where Faraday is, I have no idea, but when this video got leaked during Comic-Con last year:

Many speculated the voice in the background was Danny boy. So I am assuming he blabbed to Candle about everything (which hasn't seemed to happen as of "Namaste") which means he is still on the island and not dead.

My guess? He's with his mommy and the Mascara Man.

Posted by: WilsonWelch | March 19, 2009 5:07 PM | Report abuse

Another thought on Faraday: we still haven't learned why, in his first scene ever (as we were introduced to the freighter people), he was a complete mess and under the care of a home nurse. I'm sure he has more to do on the island this season, but at some point we'll also learn more about his life in the 5 to 10 years before the freighter adventure, and how it all ties in.

Posted by: Janine1 | March 19, 2009 5:32 PM | Report abuse

a68comeback: Locke and Ben can't come back to the island because they turned the donkey wheel. Sun can't either because she WILL HAVE TURNED the donkey wheel at some point on her "journey" to find Jin.

I might be screwing this up royally, but...

This was what I thought at first, Sun couldn't go back because she is (or was) a donkey-wheel turner. But both Locke and Ben were allowed on the island at one point, even though they also eventually turned the wheel. So a future turning of the donkey wheel shouldn't disqualify her now, because by that criteria neither Ben or Locke would ever have been allowed on the island. After all, in order to turn the wheel, she'd have to get back on the island -- if she's not allowed on the island how could she turn the wheel?

She would have had to have turned it in the past at some point to be DQ'd now. Sun apparently has no memory of turning the wheel as we know her now, so it hasn't happened yet. I guess it's possible that she was on the island as a child and turned the wheel at some point, but that seems pretty unlikely considering that Dharma seems to be just now excavating it.

So I'm inclined to think that there are other reasons why she was singled out of the O6. Maybe her alliance with Widmore?

Posted by: allison777 | March 19, 2009 5:49 PM | Report abuse

mlsl said: It really bugs me that Amy and Horace's son turned out to be Ethan. William Mapother was nowhere near 27 in age or looks during the first season.

I think this was around the time JJ Abrams was working on Mission Impossible or trying to get the director's job for that movie, so he was probably doing a favor for Tom Cruise (Ethan/William Mapother's cousin). Just a theory.

Posted by: allison777 | March 19, 2009 5:53 PM | Report abuse

Hurley's jumpsuit said "Chef". Seems to be a flashback to when he had to divvy up the food. Or just a dig at his size...

Posted by: Lizzerbear21 | March 19, 2009 6:14 PM | Report abuse

Hell - LOW?
"William Mapother was nowhere near 27 in age or looks during the first season."
Right -- and Richard doesn't look 450 years old, either.

Posted by: therestherub | March 19, 2009 7:29 PM | Report abuse

Random idea: What if the Christian Shepard that we always see on the island is actually Jack. If Jack stays on the island after 1977 and just ages normally he would look just like his dad in 2004, when young Jack shows up. Just a thought...

Posted by: fdufour | March 19, 2009 9:39 PM | Report abuse

"...two characters we will apparently lose by the end of this season."

Could you please use spoiler tags in the future or avoid putting them in the column completely? Throwing in that random spoiler was completely unnecessary and not relevant to this episode.

Posted by: Axana | March 19, 2009 11:39 PM | Report abuse

fdufour wrote: "Random idea: What if the Christian Shepard that we always see on the island is actually Jack..."

I think that's a stretch, even for Lost.

rdy4all2000 wrote: " Check this site out..its a great theory on whats actually is going on."

It looks like an old theory. We are pretty sure why the polar bear is in the desert because that is the "exit point". The theory also ignores the donkey wheel having been discovered by Dharma, meaning someone else built it. Before Dharma there was just the Others and before them presumably the people who built the statue.

But one thing popped into my head today. The island is tropical, the exit point in the Sahara is desert, but 6,000 years ago it was tropical. Egyptian civilization began around 5,000 years ago. Could the island have been an island in the area that had a great civilization, then been moved by an ancient culture 5000 years ago? Might they have made the donkey wheel to control the island's power as well as the statue? Then, once they first moved the island, it moved in space and time, stranding the people on the island and separating them from the rest of their civilization. Attempts were made to move the donkey wheel to get back, but people who moved the wheel disappeared (went to the exit) and the island appeared in random places. The statue eventually crumbled away. Eventually the people on the island gave up. Then comes Dharma and they rediscover the donkey wheel. Faraday and other Dharma scientists try to learn to control it, which they do. They start sending back rabbits. They train polar bears to turn the wheel and have them end up in the desert instead of a person. The Others find out what they are doing and get Ben to help eliminate them. The Others will want to get back to their time 5000 years ago and now they have a controllable time machine to do it with.

Ok time to sleep on this idea. It doesn't explain RA not aging nor where 17 year old Ellie and Widmore came from unless RA moved the island and somehow picked them up. I think we still have a lot to learn, but I'm thinking the island and donkey wheel are from 5000 years ago and so are some of the Others like Richard, who may be an ancient egyptian god since he does not age. Still, none of this explains the latin they speak.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 19, 2009 11:49 PM | Report abuse

Was Aaron considered one of the 06? If so, was he supposed to go back to the island too? If so, maybe Sun has been tossed off track because she was involved with some nefarious plan involving Aaron.

Maybe she left him with Widmore , and is really going back to the island for reasons other than finding Jin.

Cause SOMETHING sure happened with Sun, Kate, and Aaron, right before the flight. As I recall, Sun was babysitting Aaron, then she showed up at the dock with Aaron in the backseat, then she got on the plane the next day, and Kate also got on the plane but was super freaked-out acting, and as far as I know we still don't know where Aaron is.

I just have the feeling that if Sun messed something up, it has more to do with Aaron than her own baby.

If Aaron was NOT meant to return to the island, then ...... never mind.

Also, when I found out they were making Jack a janitor I thought he might be Ben's father but they can't ALL be each other's fathers can they? And overlapping in time?

favorite line: Sun: " I Lied" made me laugh and root for her but also made me wonder what else she could be lying about - i just get the feeling that she has her own agenda going on and is not "with" the other Returnees.

Posted by: camis | March 20, 2009 12:04 AM | Report abuse

I have been watching Lost since the first episode and this one just through me for a loop. Back and forth between now and 1977. Ugg Where are they going with all of this. I'm a dallas wedding photographer for a dallas wedding photography company and I had a photo shoot to do this morning and I couldn't concentrate because my head was still spinning from going in and out of time!

Posted by: dallas-wedding-photos | March 20, 2009 1:07 AM | Report abuse


Posted by: dallas-wedding-photos | March 20, 2009 1:08 AM | Report abuse

I think Ben and his father arrived to the island before 1974. In the episode that showed them arriving, while Ben was in a class taught by a lady who we thought was Horace's girlfriend/wife, the alarms sound and gunfire is heard. This suggests that Ben's arrival predated 1974, when Sawyer's group assimilated into the Dharma initiative, and by which the truce (however precariously) had already been enforced. If this interpretation is correct, we could perhaps conclude that Ben made contact with Richard Alpert before 1977 (and could potentially had been interacting with the others for about three years).

Although I can't give any example, I believe that it used to be common that the two sides setting a truce would exchange a few of their people with the other side, so that in the interest of their security both parties would be more motivated to respect the agreement. We haven't seen anybody in the Dharma Initiative camp that may be recognized as an "other". Amy seems to be a Dharma person to the core (Horace said to her that they had known each other for a very long time), but why is it that she is the only person that doesn't use a Dharma uniform?

Finally, please forgive me to say this, but it seems to me that the actor that pays young Ben has the physical profile of somebody who'll grow up to be very tall.

Posted by: for33 | March 20, 2009 8:06 AM | Report abuse

I'm pretty sure Aaron came with Sun to the dock where Sun threatened Ben, then Kate took Aaron, put him in her car and left. So Aaron was with Kate. Kate later shows up at Jack's and says never to ask about Aaron, so I don't think Sun has any connection to Aaron. Kate did something with him that she won't devulge.

Did anyone notice Dr. Marvin Candle had a different name when he spoke with Jack? I think the guy has about four names now. According to Lostpedia he is known as:
Dr. Pierre Chang
Dr. Marvin Candle
Dr. Mark Wickmund
Dr. Edgar Halliwax
Maybe he's cloned (just kidding, though this is Lost).

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 20, 2009 8:39 AM | Report abuse

janine1 wrote:

"Another thought on Faraday: we still haven't learned why, in his first scene ever (as we were introduced to the freighter people), he was a complete mess and under the care of a home nurse. I'm sure he has more to do on the island this season, but at some point we'll also learn more about his life in the 5 to 10 years before the freighter adventure, and how it all ties in."

An idea occurred to me while watching this week's episode about what was going on in that first scene with Faraday. Perhaps Faraday's stint with the Dharma Bums in the 1970's resulted in another instance (or two) of time jumping for him, with him ultimately winding up in the early part of this decade and mentally addled.

If so, then the first scene of him may have been from a much later point in the story arc (I've given up trying to reference time with resepct to the story's progression) -- he had already done and been through all the experiences we have been shown, and his reaction to watching the news about the crash of Oceanic 815 is a combination of "oh no, it's starting" and sadness for the tragedies and deaths that he already knows are about to occur.

Posted by: NotDoc | March 20, 2009 10:18 AM | Report abuse

Allison777 you are right! Thanks!! So for my theory to work, Sun would have to jump back to 3+ years ago to when they were all on the island together (following the Oceanic crash) and from that time she could turn the wheel to be prevented from landing on the island now. I have no idea how that could be expressed in the story, unless...? Is that why we have Frank following Sun around? Does HE move the wheel to put them back 3+ years ago (and why he decides to cancel his piloting of the Oceanic flight at the last minute even though he was supposed to do it)? THEN he would only able to get "back" to the island by flying the helicoptor along Faraday's bearings from the freighter, and further explaining why this most recent event put HIM, Ben and Locke on the research island instead of the 1977 island.

Okay, so Frank follows Sun on this C.Shephard "journey" and turns the wheel for her. She pops into the past and sees herself with all the Oceanic survivors and perhaps imparts a message to someone, perhaps something Widmore told her to do... she ends up in the desert NOW and has to wait with Eloise and Widmore knowing she cannot return to the island for real now. At least it would explain why she landed on the research island with John and Ben and now, Frank instead of popping into 1977 Island with her fellow Losties.

Who termed it "the donkey wheel" anyway? It is nowhere big enough to harness a donkey to. To me, it looks like the ship's wheel from the Black Rock. The x-ray of the other side of the wall we saw earlier this season certainly showed a ship's wheel. Call me crazy, but the discussion can only be helped by ubiquitous terminology.

bevjims1: When you refer to Richard Alpert as "RA" are you using his initials or calling him the Egyptian Sun God, RA? Because I have a theory about Richard "RA" Alpert and I think the 4-toed statue we saw from the back was RA also. Richard seems soul-less. He seems like maybe a priest or caretaker or some kind of guiding observer. He does NOT seem like a leader or a "doer" to me. Like a god, he picks someone to put into a position of leadership and then subtlely guides them, helps when necessary, but he sure as $#*% was not on the doc when Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley had the burlap sacks on their heads and got to watch Michael and Walt sail away. He fills in during the absence of a leader, but he is NOT a leader. Like ancient Egypt: Anubis was a god, but he let Ramses II make a lot of mistakes. Richard may be RA the god, but he'll let Widmore, Ben, Locke make a lot of mistakes.

NotDoc: You are right about Farady!

Posted by: a68comeback | March 20, 2009 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Just had a thought about Fraday and his mental breakdown early on (thanks for shaking my mind about that janine1). I think Faraday may be going through a time loop. He's obsessed with saving Charlotte's life. His breakdown at the beginning, like NotDoc says, is probably due to him knowing what is coming. But I think its also due to him not being able to stop himself from going through time again and again to try different things to save Charlotte, and each time she dies. He knows he cannot change "what has happened" but he can't help himself from continually trying, and so he has one purpose in life, to continue trying to save Charlotte and find a way to alter fate. The last time he tried talking to her as a child to never come back to the island. This time he tried to get her off the island to the freighter but failed. And to make it worse, if she loved him he would be her constant and survive, at least survive the nose bleeds. But she seems to not really care about him that way. Faraday is a poor old sod.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 20, 2009 12:09 PM | Report abuse

When little Ben first meets Richard Alpert in the jungle, wasn't RA all dirty, wearing torn pirate-like clothes and long hair? But when RA comes to talk to Horace about the truce after Sawyer/Juliet shot his people, he is dressed nicely and clean-shaven. What is the deal? I'm confused why Richard looked that way when meeting little Ben for the first time...

Posted by: VT2003 | March 20, 2009 12:31 PM | Report abuse

a68comeback asked: "bevjims1: When you refer to Richard Alpert as "RA" are you using his initials or calling him the Egyptian Sun God, RA?"

Well, both. I'm convinced he is a god of ancient times. I'm guessing the gods were all the same but call by different names. Ra in Egypt, Apollo in Greek, something else in Rome, etc. As for the statue, someone pointed out that its features matched a statue of Tarawet. Check out the comparison halfway down this website:
Tarawet was the god of fertility, which certainly makes sense on this island.

RA being a god also made sense when he told Locke, off the cuff, that he killed the Americans soldiers because they would not leave. No emotion, just "we had to kill them". That's how ancient gods acted. Just think about Jason and the Argonauts, The Osyssey, etc. In fact, maybe ancient gods are playing games with our Losties, Dharma and everyone else. I would put Jacob and Christian Shepard in the god category, making Claire a demigod as well as Jack, though he does not know it while Claire understand it now.

My big question though is where did Widmore/Ellie come from. Being 17 they are very young to be on a lost island, unless they were born there, maybe the son and daughter of Richard and thus demigods.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 20, 2009 12:39 PM | Report abuse

Great episode, lots of question with few answers. I'm Lost. And I think I like it.

Posted by: CaptainJohn2525 | March 20, 2009 3:06 PM | Report abuse

bevjims1 - you're right about the sequence of events the night before in the flight vis-a-vis Aaron. Still, Sun's visit with Kate was very odd, so I revise my thoughts to suggest that Sun was alone with Aaron long enough to arrange for someone to take him away from Kate some time between when Kate left the dock and when they all flew off to the island.

I can't anticipate what the writers are up to, obviously, but I do think Sun is resentful of Aaron, and we know she has sided with Widmore in some way (apparently.

So I still think there are Sun/Aaron/Kate secrets yet to be revealed. We'll see!

Posted by: camis | March 20, 2009 7:59 PM | Report abuse

Remember that Sun has had contact with Widmore. She may be following his direction and doing something for him with a promise of seeing Jin. So I agree she is on some sort of predefined mission, but I think its Widmore's.

Kate may also be working for Widmore, who I'm guessing kidnapped Aaron from Kate and gave her instructions to do something on the island in order to get Aaron back, which explains her attitude and might explain the person who goes "rouge" in the upcoming episode.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 21, 2009 9:53 AM | Report abuse

I'm currently rewatching the episode and in the first 5 minutes noticed something I hadn't before. When Lapidus' copilot sent out the mayday call, what should come back? The broadcast of the numbers - in 2007. How is that possible? Rousseau recorded over, or at least replaced the recording, with her own. The Lostaways then turned off her recording - in 2004 - to make contact with the freighter. My guesses:

1. Someone turned the numbers recording back on after they shut Rousseau's off.
2. The numbers recording was never actually shut off by Rousseau.
3. My favorite - when Jin was flashing and met Rousseau, he caused something to happen so that she never actually recorded her message and the numbers recording stayed on as usual.

I, too, thought that Christian Shephard was going to be an older Jin. I guess that's too Back to the Future-y.

Posted by: eet7e | March 21, 2009 10:33 AM | Report abuse

Many posts ago, people were answering the question about who was the prez in 1977. The poster didn't put it in quotation marks but that was what Hurley said.

Posted by: chunche | March 21, 2009 8:18 PM | Report abuse

I think there's something that doesn't quite fit.

1. Many people have pointed out that Ethan could not have been born in 1977, as he would be 27 years old in 2004 when flight 815 crashes on the island, and he appears to be older than that.

To support that view, I should mention that we have seen Ethan in 2000, when Richard Alpert and Ethan were recruiting Juliet. We have also seen Ethan shooting Locke at the time that Yemi's plane crashed on the island, and that I think is in the early 90's or so. And Ethan still looks the same. So, if anything, I think Ethan is like Richard Alpert; he doesn't seem to age. That brings the question of who is Amy's baby, with name Ethan?

2) The Amy's baby issue is also strange. We are given to understand that the arrival of Jack to the island is a few hours after Amy has had the baby. In fact Pierre Chang apologizes to Jack for the confusion, because the recruit's coordinator has had a baby the night before. Yet that very same day, before Sawyer brings Jack to the Dharma camp we see Juliet talking to Amy, who is resting OUTDOORS with a baby that looks considerably OLDER than a few hours. How is it possible that they took a just born baby outside practically to take a sun bath? How about the baby's eyes?

3) I'm beginning to think that there are two tribes of people on the island; those who are against contact with the outside, and are extremely attached to their culture. These people are the hostiles. The other tribe, which at some point, at least in part, might have left the island, but have now returned, are open to external influences; their sense of tradition is weaker. These are the Dahrma people. But I have the feeling that all of them are "others". The coming war is between the two tribes; it has had an outcome in a first iteration with the hostile's victory; we'll be watching a second iteration it seems.

Posted by: for33 | March 22, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

One more thing that I would like to say. I thought that Frank Lapidas was awesome in this episode. And I also thought he had the best line. When he tells Caesar that the island is not on his charts Caesar asks: "Really?". And Franks answers with an incredible "Really". And he makes a would partner/father figure with Sun.

But it won't look good for him that he left the survivors behind.

Posted by: for33 | March 22, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

To for33:
You’re correct. Lots of questions about Ethan, like why is his last name Rom when he was born to Amy and Horace Goodspeed? Are the things you mentioned continuity errors? While possible, it doesn’t seem plausible on a show that is known for its meticulous writing and plot cohesion. Are these discrepancies intended to keep the audience lost? Not surprising on a show known for its twists and turns.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 22, 2009 3:28 PM | Report abuse

Who gave you the week off? I enjoy your insights and have missed them, especially considering the number of questions raised in this forum this week.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 22, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

for33 - I agree you've brought up some really good points. There are so many questions, and you've articulated some of the key ones really well. You're hired.

One point you made is that Amy is dressed in normal clothes instead of the DI uniform. I think she's also being TREATED differently. At first I thought it was because she was pregnant, but now I think there is more to it.

Under the terms of the truce, each side has prisoners (liked chess pieces), apparently so that both sides are assured that their people will be treated right. Could Amy be a captive Hostile? Maybe? Not sure the other bits we know about her fit in with this, but it's a thought.

MrMerkin - I'm with you on missing Sully and his/her insightful comments. Sully, come out and play!

Posted by: camis | March 22, 2009 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Good questions about Ethan.

for33: Considering Yemi's plane crash, he may have left Africa in the early 90s but who knows when he crashed. So far we see planes leave and arrive in different years. But if we assume it crashed in the same year it left that would make baby Ethan about 15 at the time of the crash, unless there was a flash after the crash and before Ethan arrived. Does anyone know if that happened?

camis: Good call on the dress, but I don't think everyone wears a uniform all the time. When Jack showed up at Sawyer's place Juliet was not wearing a uniform if I remember correctly. So I think the uniforms are for work, not their only clothing.

for33: I wouldn't worry too much about the baby's size. Newborns in hollywood have always been an issue since they must use babies older than a few weeks, like three months if I remember correctly. No real way to get around that. In hollywood, all newborns look 3 months old.

Good call MrMerkin on Ethan's last name being Rom when Goodspeed is the parent's name. That and Ethan's age when Yemi's plane crashed may mean that lil-Ethan is not Ethan Rom, but he may be named after him.

for33: I think you may be on to something about two tribes. I'm starting to think, as Lost tends to make me do, that the island is in a continual time loop war, where when the war is over, those outside the island bring in new people and circumstances are set up to send them back and re-fight the war. This could have gone back centuries, with the Black Rock crew brought in to fight, Widmore/Ellie and other people brought in to fight, Dharma brought in to fight, Danielle's people, Henry Gail and wife, Desmond, the Lostees, Keemey's people, etc. And so, over many island time loops (the real world's time continues normally), people are added and removed (killed or get off the island), but some people exist for many loops and Ben has been around for multiple loops. And all these people looping would of course see people from their past and even themselves from their past. These would be the whisperers. Or something like that...

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 22, 2009 11:11 PM | Report abuse

Ive been noticing that only certain people were watches. Miles, Daniel and charlotte ALL were watches. The camera made it a point to show Jack wearing a watch when he was off the island.

Posted by: mregan1 | March 23, 2009 11:01 AM | Report abuse

I have to agree with Cafe Beouf. The time travel thing is getting crazy, and I feel like there are so many open story lines that still haven't been resolved, and I wonder if they ever will be resolved. For example, was there ever resolution as to why the Others were terrorizing the Losties during the first couple seasons? Dressing up in weird masks, stealing kids, why Walt was special -- did we ever get an answer? And why the Others kidnapped Sawyer, Kate & Jack (seems like Juliet could have answered that by now since she was one of the captors). Of course there's still Richard Alpert, the smoke monster and Jacob, though those themes appear to still be relevant, so maybe they will be explained in upcoming episodes.

I’m in agreement with these posters. I’m ready for some answers. I feel that the answers we have received so far are FULL of holes. It started with the episode of John trying to lamely convince the 06 to return to the island. 1) First of all, everyone had to come back because everyone was in danger (which we never even hear John convey). Well, I would be ticked to return to find everyone just fine and happy. They’re even worried that the arrival of the 06 will upset what they have going there. 2) Did Jin try to leave on the submarine? Do we know for sure it would return them to the 1977 time period? It would seem to me that Jin would at least give it a shot. 3) Sawyer wanted to stay on the island. So, did they return to save him only to have say him say thanks, but no thanks. With one season left, I think we should be getting some answers now so it’s the big reveal is not rushed or lame. I justed needed to vent a little.

Posted by: lost1234 | March 23, 2009 2:25 PM | Report abuse

Really liked the show (just watched it last night as I was on travel for the past week and missed it live; love DVR). Good comments above.

My thought on the Baby Ethan paradox is that the only way that Baby Ethan could be the older Ethan we have seen in numerous episodes would be if an older Ethan had himself time jumped to the period where we saw him interacting with the Losties and the Others in the 2004 time frame. Or we are dealing with a timeloop variant that has yet to be explained. I suppose though that it could be nothing more than a writing gap which would be disappointing.

Posted by: dojemc | March 23, 2009 5:17 PM | Report abuse

mregan1 wrote: "Ive been noticing that only certain people were watches. Miles, Daniel and charlotte ALL were watches."

I think this show is slowly causing us all to lose our minds. I mean, people are now seeing who wears watches. I was in a meeting today after reading the above and noticed who at the meeting was wearing watches. It was only the older people (cause everyone under 50 has a cell phone to keep time). I snickered and someone asked me what I was laughing about. I told them it would take too long to explain but Lost had made me crazy. They all agreed, which I'm hoping meant they understood how Lost can make one crazy and not that they simply agreed I was crazy.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 23, 2009 6:50 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, but I think mregan1 has a point, because this is so much about time and because so many standard time/space gadgets don't work properly on the island. (?)

they also made a point of Sawyer looking at his watch in one of the recent episodes. What I've wondered is if the watches WORK on the island, and HOW they work given all the time shifts. I assume they self-correct, but not sure.

I believe the watch thing is a minor dramatic device to 1) underscore the issue of time and its possibilities and 2) reinforce our sense of who is "in charge" at any given point in the story. Like stage managers, always checking the time in an effort to keep thing under control.

Disclaimer: I worked in the film business for about 30 years as a script consultant, editor, and writer so I am obsessively fascinated by the details. that doesn't make me special, lots of people are drawn to the details, this blog is proof of that, I'm just saying that for me it is a habit to wonder about them, and the watch thing is interesting. It all feeds the story.

But ya it can make you feel crazy, and make other people think you're crazy when you try to talk about this stuff.
I tried to explain the show to someone the other day and I sounded like a total nut case. Only you guys understand.

Bevjims! Are we getting into a shadow dueling analysis?
I love your comments and they often make me laugh, which is much needed these days. I try not to get into personal things here, (well that's obviously not true - cf the above) but I want to say I have you pegged as a professor of Egyptology, or HEY perhaps you're an ancient god yourself come to save this poor old world.

Posted by: camis | March 23, 2009 7:48 PM | Report abuse

camis wrote: ...but I want to say I have you pegged as a professor of Egyptology, or HEY perhaps you're an ancient god yourself come to save this poor old world."

No, I'm no Egyptologist, just someone who has Google at the fingertip and knows how to use it. And I'm no god but I'll take credit for the 500 point gain in the Dow today. :-)

I really did like the post by someone, maybe it was last week, that had the theory that the island started out near Egypt and was "moved", ending up in the Pacific. The city of Alexandria was destroyed by earthquakes. That's what destroyed the great lighthouse of Alexandria (okay, I watch a lot of the history channel too). Maybe moving the island did that for example.

So I like this idea that someone thousands of years ago discovered the power of the island, put in place the donkey wheel (someone had to put it there, maybe gods) and moved the island into its current state of being out of sync timewise. That would connect the Egyptian hiroglyphs, the statue, ancient gods, Richard not aging (immortal), speaking latin (Romans and their gods), references to biblical passages (Mr. Eko), and even smokey (god of the underworld). And, when the island moved, the gods went with it (maybe Jacob was trapped and then the island moved).

Without the gods the ancient religions (Egyptian, Greek and Roman) collapsed and possibly allowed Christianity to rise. The "war" may be to return the old gods to power.

If so then Ben IS a good guy, if you think the gods should not return to their almighty powers. Jacob would be like Zeus, king of the gods, and captive (gods use to fight among themselves and put each other in prison since you could not kill an immortal god). Since Richard is also immortal that makes him a god and probably the one who imprisoned Jacob. Widmore however may want Jacob released so the powers of the gods will return.

So this idea makes the island a prison for Jacob and maybe other gods. The Others are the jail guards. Such high stakes would explain why Richard would kill the Americans without a care. It also might explain why no one is telling the Lostees about this. Keeping the ancient gods bottled up on the island would be a major secret. A secret Widmore knows about. He wants to use the island's powers and to do so must free the god(s), and so the upcoming war.

Oh, and why can't women become pregnant? Because someone angered the god of fertility, Tarawet, which the four-toed statue looks an lot like.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 23, 2009 10:53 PM | Report abuse

Comment to Allison:

You are right that Jack might want to act a bit more appreciative to Sawyer after all these years and the fact that Sawyer risked his life for all of them by jumping out of the plane...Well, maybe he did that for Kate.

Posted by: Noelle9 | March 24, 2009 1:02 AM | Report abuse

One of the big puzzles of the last episode is why Sun was not taken from the plane to arrive in 1977 to the island. Instead she landed on the side island with the plane and people, seemingly in 2007. Some interesting speculation proposed that people overlaps might be forbidden (perhaps by the rules), so Ben and Sun had to land elsewhere in space and time. The argument is that Ben is already in the Dharma compound in 1977, and that Mr. Candle's baby is also there (well, presumably). The baby was initially thought to be either Miles or Jin, but now to take care of the time/space occurrences of people in the island we are contemplating the possibility that Candle's baby could have been Sun.

I do not have any argument to dispel this interesting (and likable) interpretation, but I would like to point out that Sun, Locke, and Ben have one thing in common that the people who landed in 1977 did not: they met personally with Charles Widmore while they were off the island (apparently an island outcast who has been condemned for eternity, as we are not aware that he has attempted to return to the island himself, always sending surrogates instead). It is plausible that Frank Lapidas has also met Widmore in the intervening years, and is now working for him, thus explaining his partnering with Sun (and leaving behind the plane survivors).

I would also like to suggest that Christian and the Monster (I think it was clear from the sounds that the smoke monster was around) are waiting on the main island to test (any) new arrivals from the small island, to decide whether or not to grant their entrance. It seems that Sun and Frank earned their entrance and guidance perhaps because they asked for Jin, instead of giving the "wrong" answer.

Two questions:

a) In the current sequence of events, do we know that the two islands are at the same time, or is the main island in a different epoch?

b) Do we know that arrival place of Sun and Frank to the main island is in the right place? Could it be that the camp we're seeing is an "itinerant" camp (with Christian in it), much the same as in season 4 Jacob's cabin was on the move?

Posted by: for33 | March 24, 2009 7:49 AM | Report abuse

It is also worthwhile to point out that, through Christian, we were given some interesting information. The earliest photograph of Dharma crews hanged on the wall was from 1972. The last one was from 1978 or 1979 (can't remember). Is the year of the last photograph an indicator of coming events in Christian's version of the island timeline?

Posted by: for33 | March 24, 2009 8:15 AM | Report abuse

for33 asked: "a) In the current sequence of events, do we know that the two islands are at the same time, or is the main island in a different epoch?"

We have not been given any reason to conclude that the two islands are in different epochs. No storms when going from one island to the other nor flashes of light. So for Sun both islands are most likely in 2007.

I agree that the Widmore connections of Sun, Lopedis and Locke might be what puts them in 2007 on the small island. It could also just be due to Hawkings saying that there would be unpredictability if they all did not go back, and not all went back.

But I'm surprised no one has mentioned in a bigger way the airstrip that Sawyer/Kate helped build where Lopedis landed. It seems the Others are carefully working night and day preparing for a future they know will happen. Its happened too many times, mainly with Ben just looking under a rock and finding exactly what he needs, just as they built an airstrip exactly where the plane would be coming down.

So I think its pretty well established that the Others not only know the future but work to prepare for and alter it to some advantage, or to prevent something worse. The most glaring example was when Michael opened the box with the bomb to start the timer at the instructed time, and a message in the box said "not yet". Like someone put the message there in the past after events in the future changed. This shows me that the future can be altered by making changes in the past but I wonder why a message was inserted in the box instead of Tom telling Michael a diffrent time. Maybe because some things in the past cannot be changed.

So it seems the Others, under Ben, are altering the past to shape the future. The problem is Locke does no know how to do this, so how can he become their "leader". Ben is the one skilled in this department. Maybe they only told Locke he would be their leader to get him to do things he would not otherwise have done, giving him a purpose which serves their purpose.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 24, 2009 9:30 AM | Report abuse

ETHAN ROM can also spell
Think about that one

Posted by: mregan1 | March 24, 2009 9:41 AM | Report abuse

I would also like to add this in regards to the wearing of watches.....
the last "job" Jin was to preform for Mr. paik was to deliever 2 rolex watches one to Sydney and one to LA, he delievered the first to austrilaa and he and sun were on flight to LA when the plane crashed.
Michael found the watch and started wearing it, he eventually pawned it in NY were the inscription was reveled.
Jack also recieved a watch from christian on his wedding day that Christian himself said he never had worn.
Jack is shown removing the watch at airport security.
it also shoud be noted that Time is used on the island as Jake gave it to Hurley to time Claires contractions but upon the second landing on the island Jack taps the watch as if its broken.

Posted by: mregan1 | March 24, 2009 10:00 AM | Report abuse

mregan1 wrote: "ETHAN ROM can also spell
OTHER MAN. Think about that one"

It can also spell:

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 24, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Thanks Bevjims for recalling my comments about the island being moved, perhaps, from the Mediterranean Sea to the South Pacific as part of the legend of Atlantis. As I noted, some speculate that the Atlantis legend grew out of the volcanic explosion of the Island of Thera (present day Santorini) in apx 1670 BC. At the time of the explosion, the civilization living on Thera (and Crete) were heavily influenced by the Egyptians. If your theory about a war among the Gods is coming, the legend of Atlantis could play an integral role in the pre-history to the war.

Posted by: dojemc | March 24, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Kudos to the people contributing to this forum. I’ve really enjoyed the theories about:
1) the origin of Ethan and his name as an anagram;
2) the watch/time observation – I certainly never saw that connection, but it is a good catch;
3) why Sun had to land on the other island;
4) the earliest photograph of Dharma crews hanging on the wall (1972) and the last one from 1978 or 1979. Makes me wonder if “a change is gonna come” by ’78 or ’79 (apologies to Sam Cooke).
There are some impressive brains contributing to this forum, which makes it fun (and enlightening) to read. Here we are just 24 hours from a new episode and there is still great discussion about last week’s episode. Thanks to all who contribute here.

Posted by: MrMerkin | March 24, 2009 12:29 PM | Report abuse

dojemc wrote: "If your theory about a war among the Gods is coming, the legend of Atlantis could play an integral role in the pre-history to the war."

I agree with your analysis, but I hope Atlantis is not part of this story. Atlantis is right up there with UFOs, ancient astronauts and the Bermuda triangle theories. They've been debunked more or less and I think if Atlantis is mentioned you'd hear some groans just as if a UFO landed.

But there is evidence of a once thriving civilization on and around Thera and a vast trading system ranging between Greece, Rome, Egypt and Carthage. Carthage (Tunis) by the way is not far from the island's exit point.

And when you read about the greek, roman, phoenician and egyptian gods, they were very similar. But its passages like the following that have me convinced the ancient gods are on the island:

Hannibal was a believer in the Phoenician god Melqart, god of the underworld. The following is a vision Hannabal had that sounds a lot like smokey in action:
"A youth of divine beauty appeared to Hannibal in the night. The youth told Hannibal he had been sent by supreme deity, Melqart, to guide the son of Hamilcar to Italy. “Follow me,” said the ghostly visitor, “and see that that thou look not behind thee.” Hannibal followed the instructions of the visitor. His curiosity, however, overcame him, and as he turned his head, Hannibal saw a serpent crashing through forest and thicket causing destruction everywhere. It moved as a black tempest with claps of thunder and flashes of lightning gathered behind the serpent. When Hannibal asked the meaning of the vision Melqart replied, “What thou beholdest is the desolation of Italy."

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 24, 2009 1:22 PM | Report abuse

re: the list of losties Ben had from Jacob (this was discussed in the chat that Ben made the list of the ones who infiltrated the DI when he was a kid) however, it hasn't been mentioned that in Season 3 when Ben needs Jack to do his surgery, Pickett says to Ben that "Shepherd wasn't even on Jacob's list."

No thoughts on the significance of this, just wanted to mention it.

Posted by: quincy83 | March 24, 2009 3:03 PM | Report abuse

Bevjims wrote: "I agree with your analysis, but I hope Atlantis is not part of this story. Atlantis is right up there with UFOs, ancient astronauts and the Bermuda triangle theories. They've been debunked more or less and I think if Atlantis is mentioned you'd hear some groans just as if a UFO landed."

Of course a war among ancient mythological Gods might be considered to be in the same category as UFO's etc : - ) My point is that the legend of Atlantis is about the abrupt disappearance of an ancient civilization which sank into the sea. But what if it didn't sink into the sea, but really was teleported to the other side of the world? In the context of the Lost mythology, though a stretch, it could be a plausible explanation.

Posted by: dojemc | March 24, 2009 5:59 PM | Report abuse

and let's not forget the Buddhism symbols, which must fit in somewhere in the island scenario. Someone (sully?) suggested that if the island can move, it may have picked up all sorts of cultures and symbols from all sorts of places. I hope it doesn't turn out to be one huge mish-mash, but a cohesive whole.

on that note - they stay on the island for 100 days, is that right? Malas (prayer beads) have 108 beads on them. When you say mantras, you move one bead for each mantra. It's a prayer counting system. BUT when you finish all 108 beads, your "count" is 100 -(they figure you'll screw up a couple mantras through lack of focus)

108. 100. Hmm. Just a reminder.

Posted by: camis | March 24, 2009 6:19 PM | Report abuse

dojemc, I agree with your Atlantis idea, I just hope it ain't so. I mean, after 5 years I would hope they would come up with something more original. Plus, if the island was Atlantis or even Thera, where are all the people, houses, animals, etc. There should be more than just jungle and a broken statue, even after thousands of years.

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 24, 2009 9:22 PM | Report abuse

MrMerkin - I'm with you on missing Sully and his/her insightful comments. Sully, come out and play!
Posted by: camis | March 22, 2009 7:23 PM

aawww, shucks, don't know if anyone's still reading, but i've had a very very bad week that's kept me away. only now reading last week's anaylsis. nice to be missed, though!

Posted by: PQSully | March 25, 2009 3:13 PM | Report abuse

"and let's not forget the Buddhism symbols, which must fit in somewhere in the island scenario. Someone (sully?) suggested that if the island can move, it may have picked up all sorts of cultures and symbols from all sorts of places."

Yup, that was me; I'm looking forward to all the Cokes everyone will owe me when my theory is revealed to be correct. :-)

Posted by: PQSully | March 25, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

I'm still here and glad to see you back PQ. Sorry to hear about your week.

I was looking at the map on the Lamppost floor to see if it showed the island in different places, as you suspect, via the pendulum marks and if so where. It does, but they are all in the pacific, except one in the carribean and maybe on in the indian ocean. But what really struck me is that the map is not a map of the whole world. Just from the US east coast to the Indian east coast. And it includes the whole south pole with no north pole visible. The current location of the island was right in the middle of the map, making me wonder of the map on the floor would change if the island moved somewhere else, adjusting the world map to be centered on the new spot. I have no idea but it seems strange for the map not to be of the whole world.

After finding that description of the god Melqart by Hannibal that sounds a lot like smokey I'm more excited about my war of the gods theory. I'm looking forward to all the beer everyone will owe me when my theory is revealed to be correct.

Mmmmmmmmmm beeeeeeerrrrrrr

Posted by: bevjims1 | March 25, 2009 4:17 PM | Report abuse

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