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Posted at 11:25 AM ET, 04/16/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analysis: 'Some Like It Hoth'

By Liz Kelly

Miles (Ken Leung) ponders his daddy issues. (Image Courtesy GetLostPodcast.com)
Lost

In which Jen Chaney and I discuss our awesome theories about "Lost," a show we love so much we talk about it ad nauseum. Oh, and we even created this obsessive-friendly "Lost" hub. And we'd appreciate it if you'd join us at 3 p.m. ET to help feed our obsession in the "Lost" Hour chat.

Liz: We're moving closer to "the incident." We saw Hurley's fateful numbers embossed on the hatch door. We were teased with the tantalizing revelation that Ilana and her henchmen work for neither Widmore nor Ben Linus. And we're off next week.

But we have to start with Miles. We finally found out his back story, thereby filling the empty hole in my soul. But where the producers worked overtime to answer our time continuum questions last week, they kind of left us to work things out for ourselves in this episode. How is it that adult Miles and three-month-old Miles can co-exist on the same island at the same time? This is something we talked about earlier this season -- I think we used Charlotte as an example of a potential space/time continuum exploder. I know you didn't go to Ann Arbor, but you've probably been there at least once -- explain this to me, please, Jen.

Jen: Okay, before I address the time travel thing, I need to just paint a picture. I am typing my side of this dueling analysis while drinking tea from a "Desmond Hume is my Constant" mug, with my laptop in front of me and a copy of "The Empire Strikes Back" Storybook lying next to me on the sofa. If that doesn't officially earn me the title of Queen Nerd, I really don't know what will at this point. Frankly, though, I'm not sure it's a title I should really embrace.

But let's leave that aside. I know I keep referring to the novel "The Time Traveler's Wife," and I know that it's hardly the only work of fiction to address time travel. But I keep coming back to it because I read it very recently and the way it addresses the sort of sticky issues that you just mentioned -- bumping into a younger version of yourself -- makes a lot of sense to me.

Much more analysis after the jump...

----


Liz: By the way, Queen Nerd, I'd prefer to be addressed as "Java Kumala."

Jen: Fair enough. Who doesn't want to be named after a cup of coffee and ... whatever a Kumala is?

So 2008 Miles Straume saw 1977 three-month-old Miles Straume. It's totally possible for that to happen, if I use "TTW" as a reference point. It doesn't explode the space/time continuum, but it does mean that the version of a person farther along on the timeline has knowledge that other people still in, say, 1977 do not. But you can run into your younger self. Because it's as if time is bisected. They are running on parallel tracks. Is this making any sense? It makes sense in my head. And when Miles explained it to Hurley a couple of weeks ago.

Liz: Sure, knowledge like, say, the plot of "The Empire Strikes Back."

Jen: In other words, older Miles is still living out a 2008-forward timeline, he just happened to have been sent back to 1977. Baby Miles is living out life from 1977 going forward.

Liz: Though I can't help thinking that one would go insane or have his face melt when confronted with one's self in another time. But let's table that for now. I'm interested to see what everyone else has to say.

Jen: I'm sure our readers will tell us if we're totally off base. They're good like that.

Liz: I have another Miles-centric poser, though. It's about all those trendy piercings.

Okay, not. I'm interested in his mother's motivation in leading Miles to believe his father did not care for him. I'm extrapolating here so this is not a spoiler, but I figure Pierre is going to bite it in the incident, which motivates Mrs. Chang to take baby Miles and leave the island. I understand telling Miles his father is dead to avoid any questions, but why not say "He's dead, but he cared for you very much"? As things stand, it sets up Miles for a lifetime of daddy issues -- and we've got enough of those already on this show.

Jen: I'm not sure he does bite it in the Incident. Unless the dates were doctored, Chang appears in some Orientation videos dated in 1980. In one, he even talks about what happened in The Incident, so I would think he survives it.

Liz: Good point -- I got my timeline confused. This is what happens when Miles changes his own diaper.

Jen: Actually, my guess is that Chang (aka Candle/Halliwax) may still be alive on the island, or somewhere, and she simply doesn't want Miles to go looking for him. It's also possible he dies in the Purge.

Liz: Or his mom knows Chang is buried on the island and she doesn't want Miles to be able to hear his beyond-the-grave thoughts.

Jen: Right. When she said he was buried where he could never get to him, that thought occurred to me, too.

Speaking of Miles, let's talk about what we learned about our sarcastic friend this evening.

1. As we already implied, we got official confirmation that Chang is Miles's father. Which I can only mini-gloat about since my original theory after this season's premiere was that the little baby was Jin. But for the record, I also floated the idea that the baby could easily be Miles and that if it turned out to be, I would pretend it was my idea all along. So yeah, I was right from minute one! Suck on that, world!

2. The infamous $3.2 million. A lot of us were scratching our heads last season when Miles said he would tell his boss that Ben was dead if Ben would kindly gave him $3.2 million. Seemed like a random figure, other than being the reverse of one of the numbers (23), as well as double one of the numbers (16.) But that double thing was the crucial clue: Miles's fee from Widmore for going to the island is $1.6 million. So that wily Miles was merely trying to double it. So smart, he is.

Liz: So motivated by money, he is, Yoda. It fills the empty place in his soul.

Jen: Kind of like Han Solo! But I'll get back to that later.

There is a slightly less enticing third thing we learned. And that's that Miles's theories about time travel and not being able to change things seem to be breaking down.

The title of this episode was "Some Like It Hoth." We all know Hoth is the ice planet from "The Empire Strikes Back." Which, contrary to popular belief, was actually written by Hugo Reyes.

Liz: Who actually once ate a Tauntuan (sans special garlic mayo).

Jen: The whole idea that Hurley would try to rewrite "Empire" -- with "tweaks to make it better," mind you -- is not only a pretty funny joke, it's a commentary on Hurley's mindset. He thinks you can change the future, and you can repair things with your father, and that even Ewoks can be stopped if a young Jedi and his Dark Side daddy would just talk it out.

Miles didn't believe that. But I think it was clear that once he saw his lil' self reading a sweet polar bear story with his loving father that he was beginning to realize sometimes the things we think we know -- the truths we've held onto our whole lives -- can turn out to be dead (no pun intended -- oh, wait, pun kinda intended) wrong.

Liz: Interesting. And, as we said last week, the most direct statements made on this show seem to be the ones that are time and again revealed to be false.

Jen: This is also true.

Liz: I don't believe you!

Jen: You're right. I'm lying. Or am I???

Liz: Since we're talking about "Star Wars," I think you had some ideas about Miles vis-a-vis one Han Solo. Have enough breath yet to talk about that?

Jen: Okay, this may be a bit of a stretch. But I see some parallels between Miles and Han, as well as Miles and Luke (the Jedi, not my son). Han Solo was a smuggler. What was Miles asked to do last night? Smuggle a corpse to the Hatch construction site. This one's obvious, but Miles is also sarcastic as hell, as was Han.

Liz: So does that make Hurley Chewbacca or R2?

Jen: I gotta go Chewie there, just because it's so easy.

Liz: And who is Luke (besides your Star Wars-named kid)?

Jen: I also see Miles as a Luke figure -- as are several people on the show -- because he didn't know his father and, in a reversal of "Star Wars," has been told bad things about him that may turn out to be good. The daddy issue thing, as you know, is a recurrent phenomenon.

And for the record, my son is not named after "Star Wars."

Liz: (Wink.)

Jen:We actually named him after Luke Wilson! (Again, I am joking here...)

Liz: Indeed, and I was thinking about the notion, too, that we have many potential Luke figures on the show -- Ben, Locke, Jack. Even Walt. But it's especially interesting when you think about Luke growing up not knowing who he was and some of our characters having a similar experience.

Jen: And was I the only person who immediately knew what Hurley was doing when he asked how to spell bounty hunter?

Liz: No dude -- I was so there. I said to Mr. Liz, "He's writing "Star Wars," just like how Kathleen Turner tried to give Nic Cage an as yet unwritten Beatles song in 'Peggy Sue Got Married.'"

Jen: You see my "Back to the Future" with a little shot of "Peggy Sue Got Married." Well done. (P.S. "Back to the Future" is way better.)

But there are some things we still don't know about Miles yet, but I think we can guess about a couple of them. Why is it that Miles can hear dead people? That has to be because he was born on the island, right?

Liz: Absolutely.

Jen: But why would that be? Why would the island give him that power?

Liz: This island has a thing for kids -- Walt, Aaron and Miles. Even Charlotte. Maybe the electro-magnetism or, more likely, Jacob's gift. Which makes it all the more interesting that Mrs. Chang was able to get young Miles off the island.

So let's round out our Miles-related topics with a little bit more Pierre Chang. Or should I say Marvin Candle? Why is he using a different name on the Dharma instruction tapes when the current Dharma recruits know his real name? My thought was that the current 1977 batch of Dharmas were there preparing the island for another wave of recruits who would not know for whom they work.

Jen: Or is it possible that Chang goes rogue at some point? I sense that he lacks confidence in what Dharma is doing, between his comments a few episodes back to Jack about how "disorganized" they are, to his comment last night about the ridiculous experiments being conducted at the Hydra Station.

And -- because I can't let this Star Wars thing go -- that would make Chang a "rebel." And little Miles a member of his "rebel alliance," if you will. I also have to wonder if Chang might actually be fully aware that older Miles is his kid.

Liz: Well, we know he's clearly way more dialed in to the island's properties, but I'm not sure. If he did indeed love his son as much as we were led to believe last night, I should think he would have given Miles some indication in the three years he's been on island.

Jen: True. I could be off base on that one. It just crossed my mind for the same reason you said: He knows about the island's properties and the time issues. And the guy is named Miles and sort of looks like him, which could be a red flag. I don't know, just food for thought that may not be worth eating.

Should we talk about dead people now?

Liz: Let's. As long as you agree right now to keep Haley Joel Osment references out of this conversation.

Jen: Sweet! You said nothing about avoiding references to M. Night Shyamalan. So I'm just going to M. Night all over the place.

Liz: Ewww. That sounds messy.

Jen: So Alvarez, the guy who died because his filling got randomly yanked by something? Clearly another casualty of the electromagnetic anomaly. That's pretty obvious, but I thought it was worth saying, just in case.

Liz: Absolutely. Though it did look as if he had a gunshot wound in his head, which was a little odd.

Jen: Right. Miles noted that initially, but when he recounted what he heard, he said nothing about a gun.

Liz: Right. So was Alvarez shot post-death for the benefit of whoever else might see his body? So it could be blamed on the hostiles?

Jen: Maybe. Also, right after Miles asked his dad, "Hey, what happened to the body?" Candle said: "What body?" Was that just his way of saying "We shall never speak of this again"? Or did something else happen to Alvarez?

Liz: Good question -- one that hit me at the time, then instantly left my head. Why would Miles need to take a dead body to Chang at the Orchid? Why would Radzinsky not bury it somewhere near the hatch construction? That was definitely curious.

Jen: What did you make of the dead dude Naomi -- or Naomi With the Wig -- took Miles to see?

Liz: Well, obviously Felix was probably one of Ben's off island agents who had been planning to blackmail Widmore after finding documentation that he'd staged the Oceanic 815 wreckage featured on the news.

Jen: See, I wasn't sure if Felix was acting as blackmailer, or if he was delivering the props Widmore needed. First option makes more sense, I suppose.

Naomi used an interesting phrase when speaking to Miles. She said something to the effect of, "There are dead people residing on this island." That was an interesting choice of words, wasn't it?

Liz: I noticed that, too. But she did say that these dead people were all killed by "this man," who we assume to be Benjamin Linus. So, was she talking about those that perished in the purge or certain hostiles?

Wait -- okay, I'm thinking out loud here:

Naomi said Miles's special skill was needed to help find Ben Linus. We know Miles's special skill to be the ability to talk to dead people. Aside from hearing a few dead soldiers talk about radioactivity when he was careening through time with Sawyer et al, Miles has only sought guidance re: Ben's whereabouts from people who we assume to be alive.

Jen: Okay, what Naomi said was, "This island has a number of deceased individuals residing on it." And that "this man" is responsible for their being deceased. Is it possible she is talking about our Losties?

Liz: I think we're both getting at the same thing. People we assume to be alive = Losties.

Jen: And re: Miles: on at least one occasion, he did pause in the jungle and hear whispers. And he passed over that dead soldier earlier this season, too.

But you're right, the people they knew about, that they were looking for, were Jack, Kate, Sawyer and the whole gang.

Liz: I think it's up for discussion -- we'd have to fit in the whole wrinkle of the Oceanic 6 getting off island and returning to society.

Jen: The wrinkle being: on the island = dead. Off island = alive. Or something.

Liz: So the other really interesting bit of tonight's show was the Miles taco stand kidnapping scene. He's abducted by what appears to be four men. And one of those men is Bram (another interesting name), who we already know as one of Ilana's henchmen, who we last saw carrying a gun around the beach of the Hydra island.

The obvious question is who are Bram and Ilana working for, if anyone? Or are they, as I am starting to suspect, some kind of sect of spiritual guardians of the island's mysteries, like the descendants of the Knights Templar guarding the Grail?

Jen: Well, Bram made a point of telling Miles he'd be playing for the wrong team. To this point, we've all been largely assuming there is Team Widmore and Team Ben, but maybe, as you say, there is a third party at play here. And apparently they are very fixated on what lies in the shadow of the statue.

I think we need more info to know for sure.

Liz: One interesting tidbit from that Lostpedia Bram page

They have transcribed the supposed casting call for his character:

"Brian, any ethnicity, late 20s to mid-30s. Smart, charismatic and clever with the ability to be physically imposing. He is wise beyond his years. Capable of genuine charm, he is also the first person you'd want to help you out of any serious jams."
Doesn't sound too sinister.

Jen: Well, okay, but he kidnapped a guy while he was eating a fish taco and threw him in a van. So I wouldn't say he's all sunshine and roses all the time either.


Daniel Faraday (Jeremy Davies) returns to the island. (Image Courtesy GetLostPodcast.com)

Liz: You didn't find that genuinely charming?

Should we move on to the man in black? I'm referring, of course, to Daniel -- who has somehow managed to return to the island on the sub, though I'm not sure how he actually left in the first place.

Jen: See, when Miles went to go get a corpse, I thought for sure that would be Faraday. Then I thought they'd see him at the Swan construction site. But when they said new scientists were coming from Ann Arbor, I said, "Okay, this has to be Faraday." So he must have hitched a ride on one of the subs and gotten off the island. I am assuming he disappeared not long after the flashes ended, when they landed in 1974.

Liz: Hopefully we'll get more clarification in two weeks, but it is nice to see him back. He adds a certain quiet hotness to the show.

Jen: A skinny hotness, if you will.

I also think Faraday may be responsible for The Incident in some way, or at least play a role in it. So his character will be crucial.

Liz: One more Daniel point: When Desmond visits Theresa, the woman turned into a vegetable by Daniel's experiments, her sister says his research was funded by Charles Widmore. I'm thinking that at some point Daniel is going to make contact -- and some kind of agreement with -- the island Widmore.

Jen: Theresa, yes. I believe she returns in an upcoming episode. And not just the very special Troy McClure-hosted clip show we get treated to next week.

Two more issues on my end:

1. Sawyer and Juliet tying up Phil? No good can come of that.

2. Did you get a look at the chalkboard in the classroom ("Dharma students make learning fun!") where Janitor Jack got into that scuffle with Drunken Roger/Uncle Rico?

As this screencap reveals, Jack was erasing what appeared to be a lesson about Egyptian history, complete with some hieroglyphics that looked kind of familiar.

Liz: Re: Sawyer and his rope. I think his belief in his ability to lead is slipping and that shows in the untenable decision to detain Phil. And he seemed downright relieved last night when Jack told him he'd taken care of Roger Linus's suspicions re: Kate. I think he might be ready to turn over the reins. After all, he feels like a little Dutch boy.

Jen: Putting his finger in a ... Doc! Sorry, that little bit of wordplay amused me.

So I just wanted to share an interesting tidbit that a very nice reader from the University of Iowa, Tom Snee (how can you not be nice with a name like that?), passed along. In addition to noting that Terry O'Quinn and Michael Emerson went to rival colleges in Iowa (O'Quinn attended the University of Iowa and Emerson went to Drake), Tom recently forwarded a really interesting biblical point.

He noted that 316, our flight number for Ajira Airways, probably refers back to the passage of John (3:16) we discussed here before: "For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten Son." He further noted that perhaps Oceanic 815 refers to John 8:15: ""Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."

His conclusion, which I rather like? "Oceanic 815 brought the passengers to the island to be judged; Ajira 316 brings them to redeemed."

Liz: That is very well put. I will forego sharing my 4:20 theory. I will, however, remind everyone to vote in this week's Quote Poll.

Liz: So shall we suspend the discussion until this afternoon at 3 p.m. ET?

Jen: Well, not suspend. People can comment. But you and I will start running our online mouths more actively at 3. How's that?

Liz: To quote Hurley, "awesome."

----

In two weeks (April 29) on "Lost": "The Variable" -- On the show's milestone 100th episode, the time of reckoning has begun when Daniel Faraday comes clean regarding what he knows about the island.

By Liz Kelly  | April 16, 2009; 11:25 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

Wow, Hoth had nothing to do with the Egyptian god Thoth. Miles is Candle's baby. Kate's an idiot. Jack is mellow. Ben's father really is a bad person. My how speculation and expectations change. But at least we know now that two people can be in the same place at different times, like the two rabbits in Candle's experiment.

And Faraday's back! Guess they discovered the electromagnetic source (tooth filling through the head) and so brought in Faraday to start working on it. Seems like the story is moving along fine explaining what Dharma was doing. No revelation though that Widmore is behind Dharma though.

But did everyone see the Egyptian hyroglyph lesson on the board Jack was erasing? Including a lesson on the Egyptian gods? I need to find a screen shot to see what it said.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 16, 2009 11:41 AM | Report abuse

What did Miles mean when he said, "OK, so it really happened?" What happened?

Posted by: AmitDC | April 16, 2009 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Alvarez did not have a gunshot to the head. That wound is where his filling exited his head when being sucked out by the electromagnet.

Posted by: bluesette01 | April 16, 2009 11:57 AM | Report abuse

"I'm interested in his mother's motivation in leading Miles to believe his father did not care for him. I'm extrapolating here so this is not a spoiler, but I figure Pierre is going to bite it in the incident, which motivates Mrs. Chang to take baby Miles and leave the island."

Well, the incident and its aftermath may have opened her eyes to risks that she could not accept that Marvin/Pierre/whoever (where did 'Straume' come from? Rhymes w/ Rom doesn't it!) exposed them to. If he knew the risks and really cared about them, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Best line by the way was not a line at all but the look Miles gave to Marvin when he said he liked country music. Just like the look Dustin Hoffman gave Robert Redford in All The President's Men when Woodward said he was a republican.

Posted by: HardyW | April 16, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

It's time travel at all that's a stretch. But given time travel, why cavil at Miles intersecting with his past self?

In SF what Miles experiences is usually called a time loop. A parallel time track would be more like one baby Miles growing up on the Island without his adult self coming back and coexisting there, while there's another baby Miles in whose universe adult Miles comes back. But I'm not saying you're phrasing is wrong, as that's just SF conventional talk as far as "parallel" vs. loops.

Aren't fillings usually composed of silver, gold, and other nonferrous metals? Would an electromagnetic field send a silver filling rocketing through your skull? Or does it sound more like Alvarez was shot in the jaw?

They don't need Miles's talent to talk to presumbed-dead-but-actually-alive Losties, so Naomi couldn't merely have been referring to Kate and such. Why pay Miles $1.6M to talk to someone alive? Naomi can do that herself for free without costing Widmore another penny.

I'm not sure that we do know Bram's faction is distinct from Ben's side? It does seem likely, but last night's show hardly proved it.

Posted by: UniqueID | April 16, 2009 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Maybe Alvarez' body was brought to the Orchid for use in a time travel experiment?

Posted by: chombie13 | April 16, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

I agree that the silence Miles gave back to such musical predilection was the best moment, even if it didn't count as a line--not only made me laugh out loud, it also showed Miles learning more about his actual father, an enigma who goes by many names (like Darth Vader...) Wonder who else he fathered?

"Straume" = "master U"?

A more meta note--on next week's clip show, didn't the teaser say it would give a different perspective on the show's progress thus far? A la Rosencrantz and Guildenstern (or at least Lion King 1.5)? Could that mean it's actually worth watching? Or just the last chance to get the audience caught up before May sweeps?

Posted by: anotherex-reader | April 16, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

"Jen: ...There is a slightly less enticing third thing we learned. And that's that Miles's theories about time travel and not being able to change things seem to be breaking down."

Really? What event last night suggested this to Jen?

Posted by: UniqueID | April 16, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Jack is totally Luke, if anyone is. 'Dead' (but not gone) father, stealth sister, you name it. And! If Claire really is a ghost, she's perfect for Miles/Han.

Posted by: HardyW | April 16, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

One thing that struck me was Juliet's comment after Uncle Rico stormed out of the hospital. She looked at Kate and said, "here we go." Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it seems like she knows what is going to happen, as though this part of the Lostie story is something that Ben or future Others had already told her about.

And I like that idea of the filling be sucked right out of Alvarez's head. That's nasty.

Posted by: peteyamama | April 16, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

My Empire Strikes Back Theory:

I think last night Hurley set up the whole idea that, if Darth Vader and Luke had just talked no one would have had to lose an arm. But, we know that Pierre Chang does lose an arm. My theory is that Miles eventually tells Pierre who he is. Unfortunately, this somehow distracts or angers Pierre and at that moment "the incident" occurs. The incident kills Miles and causes Pierre to lose an arm. This causes Pierre to banish his wife and son from the Island and even change his name so that he is less likely to be found. It also inspires his time travel research.

Posted by: L8yF8 | April 16, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

On Sawyer laying Phil out, I thought that was a bit of quick thinking on his part. What choice does he have? He has no explantion that will satisfy Phil, so he has to keep him from going to Horace.

I agree that keeping Phil tied up is "untenable," so unless Sawyer kills him (unlikely) or hands him over to Richard (slightly better but still probably won't happen) this state of affairs can't last long. But at least it can buy them a little time to consider options for Sawyer, etc. Doing anything else means Phil goes to Horace right now.

Where I thought Sawyer, Juliet, and especially Jack dropped the ball is with Roger. THEY (LaFleur anyway) should get in first with Horace by warning him that drunken Roger is going around talking crazy about this new girl Kate. Now how Jack thinks that assuring Roger that Jack and Kate are great friends is supposed to win Roger's trust, I have no idea. Obviously that has the exact opposite effect on Roger.

Posted by: UniqueID | April 16, 2009 12:23 PM | Report abuse

So I was thinking that perhaps Miles does end up talking to his father (taking Hurley's suggestion) and Miles warns Chang about future peril. Then Chang gets his wife and son off the island to protect them, but doesn't tell them why, thus mom's animosity towards dad.

I was also thinking about Chang's experiments with the bunnies. Remember the bunny with the "8" on it falling out of the sky a few seasons ago? And the fact that the losties could not watch the entire video without it stopping? I was thinking that this might be related to the island self correction. Did the past change and that is why the tape doesn't work? And what was Chang's machine that Ben blew up in the lab?

Posted by: kschoen | April 16, 2009 12:32 PM | Report abuse

I too thought Jack's approach with Roger was stupid. Why not just say "look man, she saw u were bummed and trying to make u feel better... I think you're upset and reading too much into things." Instead he makes this vehement declaration about his friendship with Kate and how he has no doubts about her, which just makes both he AND Kate look more suspicious.

@L8yF8... when do we see that Chang loses his arm? I dont recall.

Posted by: chombie13 | April 16, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

Best line:

Hurley, after Miles tells him to keep quiet about the body, says to Dr. Chang "I won't tell anyone about the body", and does it like there was no problem saying it. Reminded me of Curly is an old Three Stooges episode. I was waiting for Miles to say "why I otta" and then smack him on the head.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 16, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

Somehow I get this feeling that Daniel doesn't come from the same time line as the rest of the Losties on the island now.

Posted by: kschoen | April 16, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

The sneak peek for the next episode: "Daniel Faraday comes clean regarding what he knows about the island" I believe backs up our thoughts that Daniel has been off-island finagling with things. Sounds like it will be an episode with lots of answers... possibly FINALLY saying that Daniel was lying when he said that you can't alter the future.

Love your Analysis every week, ladies! I'm a busy grad-school mommy who never ever usually gets here in time to "chat" but I'm an avid reader!

-Displaced Manassas-ian now living in Indy.

Posted by: sdp001 | April 16, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

sdp in Indy, have we seen anything at all that suggests Dan was knowingly lying about the past being unalterable? Until now the discussion has usually been over whether he's correct or incorrect. But lying?

Posted by: UniqueID | April 16, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Chombie13- In a station orientation video when Pierre introduces himself at Marvin Candle he is missing an arm.

From Lostpedia

"In the Pearl video Chang appeared to have use of his left arm; however, in the Swan and Flame films, he did not, for reason unknown. In the Barracks video, he did not move his left arm, suggesting it might have been a cosmetic device. In the Orchid Orientation video, he was using both his arms."

Posted by: L8yF8 | April 16, 2009 12:44 PM | Report abuse

Oooh, L8yF8, I like that idea (don't know about the arm, though). Miles was the one espousing "time is immutable," but now he seems to be swaying toward Hurley's "you can change things" approach, because now he wants things to be different. Funny how even folks who push the "you can't change the past" approach are willing to try anyway when it's their own life and loved ones in question (see Daniel/Charlotte). It would be totally in keeping with the other story lines this year (Daniel/Charlotte, L'il Ben) for Miles' attempt to change the past to bring about the very thing he was trying to avoid -- in this case, Miles distracting Chang (by telling him he's his son?), that distraction causing the incident, the incident killing Miles, and Miles' death, in turn, causing Chang to banish mom and son to keep them safe. Especially since we know that at least one character is supposedly getting offed this season. Though personally, I think Miles' mom was in on the whole thing -- she lied about dad being dead and never wanting him to scare Miles away from ever trying to find him, thus trying to save him from his fate.

So who thinks Miles' mom was dying from radiation poisoning (or something like) she suffered years before on the island from the incident? And maybe it was the incident that gave Baby Miles his powers in the first place? I mean, it's not like just being on the island turns everyone into Haley Joel Osment; I'm guessing it's something related to Big and L'il Miles being together on the island when the incident happens.

Posted by: laura33 | April 16, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Miles piercings were undoubtedly a reference to his character in X-Men, Kid Omega, who is a porcupine-y fellow.

Posted by: otherliz | April 16, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Jack said Kate is his "friend" almost like a threat. I don't think he was trying to persuede Uncle Rico to not go to Horace. I think he was saying, "Leave her alone or you'll have me to deal with too. And you just don't need all that right now, buddy."

I did NOT like it that Juliet had absolutely no cover story to explain Ben's missing status, much less missing-FOREVER-status. (And as an Other, she would know Richard was going to keep the kid, right?) "I turned my back just for a minute..." Really? You're going with THAT? And Kate looking sheepishly like, "Oh wow, this is the first time I've ever done a good deed, but I guess they really don't go unpunished? Maybe my emotional knee-jerk reactions don't always work out for me...". Ugh. Do we HAVE to go back to stupid girl mode on this show? Made me wish Shannon was still around.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 16, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps next week's clip show will be shown from the perspective of the smoke monster...

Posted by: bontster1 | April 16, 2009 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Liz and Jen are great, but sometimes they read into the lines WAAAAAAAAAY too much. For instance, they are questioning what Dr. Chang/Candle meant when he said "what body?" The answer is pretty simple. It is a figure of speech people commonly use. When someone says "forget about (insert anything) and then the other person says "what (insert something)" to point out he will definitely not say anything about it. Very simple, you don't have to read into it.

Then they are questioning if the dead body was shot "post-death." No, it is very obvious that Miles first thought it was a bullet wound. Who would originally think a wound like that is cause from a filling ripping through your skull? Of course someone will assume it is a bullet wound first. He then "talked" to the dead guy and found out what really caused his death.

So my point is, these analyses are nice, but I wish they wouldn't try to read into every little thing, especially when things are obvious.

Posted by: btisinge | April 16, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

kshoen: I bet you are right about the bunnies and about Daniel. Daniel has a pretty full notebook that he could have been collecting thoughts in for a very long time. And I think you are right that a lot of what we assume are technical difficulties with Dharma tapes are in fact the timeline on-hold awaiting course correction. Good thoughts!

Posted by: a68comeback | April 16, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

New entity that Bram, Ilana (+/- ceasar) are working for - Dharma Initiative reborn?? Ann Arbor is pissed and not going to takeit anymore?

Posted by: qwerqwer1 | April 16, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

btsinge,
I agree with both of your points. The wound from a filling flying through a skull would look very similar to a bullet wound. - Pretty obvious stuff.

Posted by: Iowahoosier | April 16, 2009 1:03 PM | Report abuse

Shannon rules! way to go bro

Posted by: SpikeiRule | April 16, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

best line:

You owe me a fish taco. (Miles)

Posted by: hodie | April 16, 2009 1:14 PM | Report abuse

L8yF8 beat me to it, not about the Empire Strikes Back because I don't like Star Wars and was pretty annoyed that the title of the episode was an allusion to it.

But she beat me to mentioning Pierre Chang's arm. I thought I remembered seeing a prosthetic hook arm in one of the Dharma videos, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure that he lives through the incident, but loses his arm.

I also believed that Alvarez had been shot in the jaw when Miles described the filling thing, but the magnetic forces pulling it out makes much more sense to me.

I think that Ilana and Bram are on the Island's side. I mentioned before that I thought the war was actually the Island against Ben in order to restore (?) Locke to power. Widmore et al are just soldiers, Alpert is the chief of staff, Jacob is a commander. I also think that Ilana and Bram are from Alpert's time.

(Someone, I think it was Doc Jensen, made the point that Bram could just be an allusion to J.J. aBRAMs. apparently the second J. stands for Jacob as well).

On a bit of a tangent, I've been getting Heroes and Lost confused this week. Heroes seems to again be mimicking lost - this week's episode had flashbacks, filming of powers, extermination of a certain people, digging up graves, the formation and re-formation of a rebel group. Even the "original" is becoming unoriginal. *sigh*

Posted by: eet7e | April 16, 2009 1:15 PM | Report abuse

"I did NOT like it that Juliet had absolutely no cover story to explain Ben's missing status, much less missing-FOREVER-status. (And as an Other, she would know Richard was going to keep the kid, right?) "I turned my back just for a minute..." ...Do we HAVE to go back to stupid girl mode on this show?:
Posted by: a68comeback

I get your point, but even with time to think, I'm not sure I could come up with a more plausible excuse than Juliette's. If you say he's dead, then what did you do with the body? If you say so-and-so's taken him to another station for treatment, you will be quickly disproved, right back where you started, AND under suspicion for lying. At least pleading ignorance doesn't send poor old Roger immediately to someone/someplace where he'll know quickly you lied.

I will, however, agree vehemently that Kate is pretty dopey. "I have a feeling everything will be okay." Really?

Posted by: PQSully | April 16, 2009 1:19 PM | Report abuse

Does anyone think Ilana, Bram, Caesar and others work for Ms. Hawking? Could that be the 3rd team? Eloise has been connected to both Ben and Widmore, but seem to favor neither. Eloise and Farraday seem much more concerned with what the island does, than being in a custody battle over it like Ben and Widmore. Ilana, Bram, and Caesar could be there simply to protect it? Obviously Hawking knew that Aijira 316 was going back to the island and purposely put the third group and the Oceanic 6 on there, i.e. sending Ilana to get Sayid, two birds with one stone.

Posted by: SpikeiRule | April 16, 2009 1:21 PM | Report abuse

The magnetism is probably a red herring. Most likely, Alvarez was simply shot. Either by the Hostiles for trespass, or by his superiors for being too nosy.

Tooth fillings are specifically not made with iron or other magnetic elements.

Even if they were, magnets would attract them, not repel them (magnets and magnetic fields are capable of repulsion only of other magnets of the same polarity; they can only attract unmagnetized steel, for instance).*

*True, Alvarez might have been bending over digging and thus an attarcative force could have been oriented so as to pull a filling toward his brain. Maybe.

But I think this is the writers being cute, knowing viewers will try to steal a base and leap to a magnetic explantion. Wait till the Incident for that. In the meantime, there is no shortage of death by gun on the Island.

Posted by: UniqueID | April 16, 2009 1:29 PM | Report abuse

I agree with PQSully that Juliet playing dumb is better than a lie. Any specific lie can be disproven. If Juliet just says she's as puzzled as anyone else, who can call her on it?

On Kate, as much as it pains me to defend her, I don't think her comforting Roger was risky or dumb. So she pats him on the arm and says she has a feeling his son will be okay. Big deal. Anyone might plausibly do the same in the circumstances, just telling an anxious parent what you think he wants to hear. Only because Roger is a paranoiac drunkard does he read anything suspicious into that - and Kate could easily explain as much if Jack didn't go around clumsily trying to cover up for her.

Posted by: UniqueID | April 16, 2009 1:35 PM | Report abuse

Good call SpikeiRule.

So Bram and his mystery machine gang Scooby Doo Miles and tell him he's working for the wrong people. But they didn't tell him he's *not* supposed to go to the Island, they just want him to be ready for it. Until he knows what lies in the shadow of the statue, he's not ready. Mrs. Hawking is just sitting back teaching some Island school while she talks to Widmore and Ben? Seems a solid idea and fun too.

Just sayin' here... If Daniel is back next episode, we damn well better get his Constant back too. 20 seconds of Des beating the face off of Ben was great and all, but he needs to get back into the mix soon.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | April 16, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Okay, I either have a big clue or I found a prop mistake. While looking at a screengrab of the blackboard Jack was erasing that was evidently a lesson on the ancient egyptian religion and some hyroglyphs I spot a periodic table in the upper right hand corner of the screengrab:

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/wp-content/gallery/5x13/c-users-thad-pictures-lost-season-5-5x13-5x1300014.jpg

This periodic table has the element Ununhexium, atomic weight 116, an element discovered in July 2000, yet Jack is in 1977. The element is the brown square on the far right in the sixth row. The periodic table in not circa 1977 but circa 2001-2005. In 1977 the heaviest element known was seaborgium, atomic number 107. Maybe the directors did not know the periodic table has been growing as atom smashers have been finding new and heavier elements as they smash other elements together.

Plus, a periodic table today would have two more elements, atomic number 115 to the left of Ununhexium and 117 to the right. So either this is a simple prop error or the people building Dharma are not from the 70s but from the time the table was printed, around 2004, just like our Lostees.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 16, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Man, if Miles really was named after Miles Davis in 1977 (as Hugo's conversation w/ Marvin allows, Miles' mom likes jazz, Marvin prefers country), his mom must have been extremely hip, that was some very deep stuff Miles Davis was laying down from 72-75 (I guess he was something like retired by 77, or on hiatus anyway)

Posted by: HardyW | April 16, 2009 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Favorite Line:
Miles: "I'm in the Circle of Trust."

Posted by: stive21 | April 16, 2009 1:46 PM | Report abuse

Favorite Line:
Miles: "I'm in the Circle of Trust."

Posted by: stive21 | April 16, 2009 1:46 PM | Report abuse

That reminded me of Meet the Parents. I was thinking "....so Jacob is Robert DeNiro?"

Posted by: eet7e | April 16, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

bevjims1: "This periodic table has the element Ununhexium, atomic weight 116, an element discovered in July 2000, yet Jack is in 1977."

Or maybe the Dharma Initiative discovered Ununhexium on the Island during or prior to 1977, and did not release the information to the world at large until July 2000.

Posted by: Ghak | April 16, 2009 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Screencap of Alvarez's injury/gunshot/filling hole/whatever:

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2009/04/15/lost-episode-5%C3%9713-%E2%80%9Csome-like-it-hoth%E2%80%9D-screencaps-easter-eggs-audio-analysis/

It's clearly on his forehead & it does look like an exit wound. Whether that's a bullet or filling I'll leave up to youse guys.

Posted by: wadejg | April 16, 2009 1:57 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Naomi using the terms "dead people existing" on the island. I'm not sure just being on the island means that one is dead. (Plus I'm pretty sure the producers have told us the Losties are not dead.) I think they need Miles to find the back story on, not only the victims of the Purge, but also people like Alvarez. I also think we should doubt that Naomi knows the full story. Why would Widmore trust so many people with the real deal? Most characters in the saga only know half of the "story" at any given point anyway; leading the viewers taking information as solid truth only to have the exact opposite proven later in the story.

Posted by: stive21 | April 16, 2009 2:01 PM | Report abuse

What if Pierre Chang gets "the sickness" and turns bad like Rousseau's husband did?

He might have done some pretty despicable things after his transformation, which would explain Miles' mom saying that he never cared about them and her apparent hostility toward him.

Posted by: cep37 | April 16, 2009 2:01 PM | Report abuse

RE:I agree with both of your points. The wound from a filling flying through a skull would look very similar to a bullet wound. - Pretty obvious stuff.
The only problem is that the bullet hole is clearly an entry wound, if the filling or bullet exited there, 1/3 of his face would be gone.

Posted by: bproulx45 | April 16, 2009 2:10 PM | Report abuse

I think Alvarez was already a time travel experiment - one that failed.

And Daniel Faraday may be the one that worked. I think I remember Miles having said to the new Dharma arrivals (Jack/Kate/Hurley) that Dan was "there, but not really there" or some such thing - and I assumed then what he meant was "he's here; but he's gone crazy [because Charlotte died en route]".

But now I think Miles may have meant something else - although he seemed genuinely surprised to see Daniel step off the sub.

As for Chang/Candle - maybe he gets back on that sub when it returns to Ann Arbor so that he's not there when the Purge occurs. He already seems disenchanted with the Dharma folkies - and if new scientists are brought in (perhaps to "perfect" whatever experimentation he's "failed" at), that might tick him off enough to leave and let them have at it.

Posted by: jqw3827 | April 16, 2009 2:20 PM | Report abuse

I'm under the suspicion that something occurs that leads to Chang sending his wife and baby Miles off the island for their own protection. If you remember Hurley asked him if he can even tell his wife what he does, and he says no.

Since he can't tell her the actual reason, maybe he make something up like he doesn't love her or Miles anymore to encourage her to leave. Which ultimately leads to both Miles and her bitterness with regards to him.

Posted by: pcvhawley | April 16, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

Considering the multiple names of Dr. Pierre Chang aka Dr. Marvin Candle aka Dr.
Edgar Halliwax aka Dr. Mark Wickmund, whose to say there are not four of them? We have two number-8 rabbits after a time travel experiment and now two Miles. If Chang was doing time travel experiments on himself, and from the rabbit it looks like they were short term experiments of just a few minutes, he could essentially clone himself (as happened to rabbit-8) by moving just a few minutes into the future or past (probably past but please don't make me explain).

Once you had these four identical people whose lives are only a few minutes apart but on differing timelines as are the two Miles, giving them different names would help avert confusion. It also might explain Miles' mom's instance that his father walked out on them. Imagine your spouse totally hung up on their work and cloning themselves. Might cause some marital strife. Didn't Chang keep saying the project was behind schedule? Four of him could help get the project back on track.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 16, 2009 2:39 PM | Report abuse

So my comment just got lost in the ether, but the short of it is --

Writing this before reading other comments, where it is probably pointed out a million times.

Given the clue of Star Wars, it is likely that Bram and Ilana third group is "The Return of the Dharma Initiative"

Posted by: ooyah32 | April 16, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

I think Illana's team are Ben's. I like the idea they could be Eloise's people, considering the only Others that knew of the flight were Ben, Widmore and Eloise. Bram is not working for Widmore or he would not have harassed Miles so they have to be from Ben or Eloise.

I'm leaning heavily toward Illana's team working for Ben. All of Illana's team must have been in the "coach section" of the plane. Chavez was in 1st class and I'm guessing not part of Illana's team. After the crash Chavez was proving himself to be a leader. Ben shooting him got him out of the way for Illana's team to get started without Chavez getting in the way and that is why Ben killed a defenseless Chavez.

It also might explain, a little, Ben's quip about not caring about the other people on the plane when Jack asked about them. It could have just been Ben getting Jack to stop paying attention to his mercenary force back in coach.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 16, 2009 3:03 PM | Report abuse

But Ben did not recognize them, and they did not recognize him (or at least they did not appear to recognize Ben).

Posted by: ooyah32 | April 16, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

"Or maybe the Dharma Initiative discovered Ununhexium on the Island during or prior to 1977, and did not release the information to the world at large until July 2000."
Posted by: Ghak

I doubt they went to the trouble of building a particle accelerator on the island when perfectly good particle accelerators existed in the US, Europe and USSR. Particle accelerators are not cheap and require lots of power. I think either its a prop error or a clue that information from 2004 is feeding the Dharma initiative.

Remember Toomey (I think that's his name), the Australian guy who told the numbers to the crazy guy in the institution who told them to Hurley who then used them in the Lottery? Well, he's probably there in 1977. And considering the numbers were imprinted on the hatch in this episode, and they seem to be a serial number for the Swan, I'm guessing the future incident has to do with the Swan, Toomey leaves the island with some other people distressed over the incident, and the numbers read by Hurley over the radio are a warning to stay away from that station.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 16, 2009 3:22 PM | Report abuse

did NOT like it that Juliet had absolutely no cover story to explain Ben's missing status, much less missing-FOREVER-status. (And as an Other, she would know Richard was going to keep the kid, right?)

Posted by: a68comeback | April 16, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Richard isn't keeping Ben forever. He'll need Ben w/the Dharma's to cause the purge in 1994. Ben will go back to Dharmaville but he'll never be the same.


Posted by: jes11 | April 16, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Nothing about the writing on the blackboard in the classroom that Jack was cleaning? The third board (R to L) was already erased. The second board was clearly shown and had somethin about the evolution/differences between Egyptian heiroglyphics during the three kingdoms. the 1st board was barely shown and had something about deciphering glyphs and seemed to say that the wheel looking thing represented god.


oh, and Miles' punk phase was so out of time. how could he have a 2000 era pop-punk look at least a decade before it came around? punks in the 90s did not look at all like that. wardrobe malfunction or was miles traveling through time before he knew he was traveling through time?

Posted by: PindarPushkin | April 16, 2009 4:37 PM | Report abuse

jes11: Richard Alpert said, "If I take him, he’ll never be the same again. His innocence will be gone…he’ll always be one of us." Juliet knows this. That was what I meant by her knowing he would be missing forever.

But you are right: maybe Juliet also knows that it's in Ben's history that Richard will bring him back in a few hours... And we just don't know that yet.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 16, 2009 4:58 PM | Report abuse

PindarPushkin: Not so - I knew people that looked like that in the late 90s...

Posted by: kschoen | April 16, 2009 5:07 PM | Report abuse

People with piercings sure did look like Miles in the 90's. From the Northwest grunge scene to the East Village in NY, you could find guys just like that at any indie record store or punk rock show. What did your punk rockers look like in the 90's Pinder? Hot pink leather jackets with teal-green chuck taylors, and black lipstick? Those "punks" were only standing on King's Road for photo ops or maybe as extras on Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 16, 2009 5:12 PM | Report abuse

"One thing that struck me was Juliet's comment after Uncle Rico stormed out of the hospital. She looked at Kate and said, "here we go." Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it seems like she knows what is going to happen, as though this part of the Lostie story is something that Ben or future Others had already told her about."
Posted by: peteyamama

I completely agree. The look on her face should have been one of fear of being found out, or Horace coming to interrogate her. But she just smiled like she had set something in motion and she knows the outcome. Kate had the proper expression. Add to that Juliet asking Sawyer in a previous episode what they were doing together "playing house". She's acting like she is living in a timeline where she knows every outcome and is bored to tears. So I'm convinced she is on some sort of mission but not sure if she was sent to 1977 to be on this mission or whether she invented this mission after finding herself in 1977, but on a mission she is.


Posted by: Fate1 | April 16, 2009 10:36 PM | Report abuse

Enjoyed reading all of the posts above. Here are my two pennies for tonight.

1) As bevjims1 pointed out, Dr. Pierre Chang’s aliases are Dr. Marvin CANDLE, Dr. Edgar HalliWAX, and Dr. Mark WICKmund [emphases mine]. What is the significance of the candle references in his names? Any relation to the fact that Eloise Hawking/Farraday works in the Lamp Post Station?

2) LindeCuse can sometimes be so exacting w/ even minute details and then other times . . . . Am I the only person bothered by the fact that Jin, Sawyer, Miles, and other Losties time tossed to Dharma ’77 are so lax about how they talk over the walkie-talkies? Why would they think that only the intended person can hear their transmission and not realize that ANYone on the same frequency could hear? In several episodes in previous years the Losties made use of over hearing walkie-talkie transmissions among the Others so you would think they would know how dangerous it is to talk about sensitive things on the walkie-talkies.

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 16, 2009 11:06 PM | Report abuse

Observations:
Opening scene, time on the microwave is 3:16 ... wasn't it funny to see Miles as a punk & pierced teen ?! Hurley confides to Miles he can "talk" to dead people too, but is that only because of his experience with seeing dead Charlie ? ... talk about branding, the freakin' Dharma logo is on EVERYTHING, vehicles, buildings, classrooms, notebooks, food, drinks, etc ... interesting to hear about dead Felix carrying a purchase order for an old plane for Widmore, presumbly the staged plane that's later "found".

I've never been one for proposing theories of what LOST is all about, but we were tossed some significant clues last night as well as years before. Is it possible that this is all framed in a game of some sort, even a scavenger hunt ? We've heard of "the rules", Bram now talks about teams and his being the "winning team", Ben's describing his people as "the good guys". Anyone else seeing it this way ???

And who else died just a little when they announced next week was a clip show?! Ugh. Does that count as one of the 17 eps of this season ?! That's just smoke-monster-evil if so.

Posted by: Eludium-Q36 | April 16, 2009 11:09 PM | Report abuse

The only person who has had the continuous contact with the island over the years is Hanso. Hanso funded the entire Dharma Project and is obviously in tune with the Egyptian origins of the Island. This episode provides evidence that Dharma is teaching the children on the island about the Egyptian origin that Iliana and her group is trying to protect. Hanso has been wronged by Ben and he brought Iliana back to the island to right all of the wrongs that have occured over the past thirty years. Hanso might hold the true key to the island.

Posted by: gordogato2 | April 17, 2009 2:40 AM | Report abuse

To Eludium-Q36:
I like your “game show” theory. Ben Linus, C’mon down! Charles Widmore, C’mon down! What’s your bid on the island Showcase Showdown?

To gordogato2:
I’m going to need more evidence before I can agree that “Hanso might hold the true key to the island.” While I’m currently leaning toward the theory that Bram and Illana work for the Dharma Initiative and are trying to regain control of the island for the DI, I’m not impressed w/ the DI from what I’ve seen. Instead of being a bunch of ‘70s hippie idealists establishing a Utopian society or using science to create a more peaceful world, the last five seasons have revealed the DI as being mad scientists (like Radzinsky), duplicitous leaders (like Horace and his Nixonian “circle of trust” & Chang & his aliases), malcontents (Roger Linus), and folks disposed toward violence (like their treatment of the Others and their unanimous vote to execute Sayid). Further, instead of being a benevolent organization bettering the world, the DI usurps land (building the Swan in the Others’ territory in violation of the truce) and exploits the island’s resources much as Exxon does for oil or as companies do that deforest the Amazon rainforest. Instead of preserving the island, DI seems willing to rape the island for its resources; therefore, I have a hard time seeing that Hanso or his DI “might hold the true key to the island.”

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 17, 2009 6:37 AM | Report abuse

MrMerkin,
I agree the current DI is not a utopian experiment though I thought it was earlier. Its seems very purposful in getting at the island and exploiting it, teaching the hyroglyphs, setting up stations like the Swan to exploit the island's resources, and knows about the potential for time travel. So it seems they came to the island with that purpose in mind, meaning someone had to know about the island. I think it was Widmore who is behind the DI and when that was discovered after the purge, which was done to save the island from the DI, was banished by the Others.

Who Hanso is I think is anyone's guess. It could be Widmore under another name. It could be a who Illana/Bram are working for though right now I think they work for Ben. But someone is keeping the Others and Lostees in Dharma food (in 2004) and that might be Hanso. I doubt it would be Widmore. And lets not forget the large support network Ben was able to use when he was off island. It could be that Hanso was working for Ben, started the DI as a peaceful project that Widmore, by influencing Horace and Radzinski, started exploiting the island. Right now I think anything is possible so its hard to speculate. That or maybe I've been so wrong so many times I'm giving up :-(

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 17, 2009 8:18 AM | Report abuse

"Hurley confides to Miles he can "talk" to dead people too, but is that only because of his experience with seeing dead Charlie ?"

And Dave (Evan Handler - in the bathrobe and slippers). And the scene when Sayid comes to get him in the mental institution. Hurley's playing chess, apparently by himself, but then says to the empty chair "Your move, Mr. Eko."

Posted by: eet7e | April 17, 2009 8:29 AM | Report abuse

But Hurley talks to the dead off-island. He does not talk to the dead when on the island, where he seems very sane. Miles can talk to the dead anywhere and as Hurley said, its different. Miles needs a body to talk to. Hurley is visited by a ghost, again, only off-island, and cannot talk to a dead body.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 17, 2009 9:17 AM | Report abuse

Did you see Michael Emerson’s interview with Jimmy Fallon Thursday night (actually early a.m. Fri.!)? I really enjoyed it. You can catch it at:
latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/clips/michael-emerson-part-1-41609/1087731/
and at
latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/clips/michael-emerson-part-2-41609/1087762/

NOTE: Remember to add the prerequiste www in front of the addresses above. I did not type it here in an attempt to fool this website, b/c I notice it sometimes blocks URL references.

First, I loved the song the Roots used to play on Emerson: Blind Faith’s “Can’t Find My Way Home.” (Aside: I wasn’t that familiar w/ the Roots before the Fallon show, but they have impressed me as his house band. They’re right up there w/ the other NY Late Nite bands from Letterman and the old Conan show.) Sorry, Camis. I lapsed into music again on this _Lost_ website.

Second, I didn’t know acting was Emerson’s SECOND career. He began as an artist and the Fallon showed some interesting Gahan Wilson-type art from Emerson’s past.
Some other cool things in the interview, too, but why offer more spoilers? Watch and see for yourself.

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 17, 2009 9:51 AM | Report abuse

To Eludium-Q36 (Take 2):
I like your “game show” theory.

Ben Linus, Come on down! Charles Widmore, Come on down! What’s your bid on the island Showcase Showdown? You say $1.6-million, Charles? And Ben, you say $3.2-million? Well, the actual retail price is . . . . Wait a minute our announcer Johnny Lang has an announcement. What's that you say, Johnny Lang? We're breaking the rules today?! There may be a THIRD mystery contestant to bid on the island Showcase Showdown? Well, stay tuned. We'll be back to find out to find about our mystery bidder right after these words from Ajira Airways. Ajira: You CAN go home again.

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 17, 2009 10:16 AM | Report abuse

This may be apropos of nothing, but I think that either just before the "incident" or immediately after it, we are going to see all the women on the island with small children leave the island with those kids. We know that Miles and his mother leave. We also know that Charlotte and her mother leave. The only children we know, so far, who stay behind are Ben and Ethan and that appears to be because they are with the Others/hostiles and are separated from their parents. Why did those who left, leave? Probably nothing more than it gets too dangerous for them. Not sure that it is tied into woman no longer being able to conceive and deliver on the island. Of course, if they got pregnant again it would be dangerous for them.

Posted by: dojemc | April 17, 2009 12:47 PM | Report abuse

How come no one mentioned another great line from this week's episode?

Hurley to Dr. Chang, after being threatened to not talk about the body in the van ever again:

"Polar bear poop. Got it."

Posted by: apfromal | April 17, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

favorite line : "I'm in the circle of trust"

68: Kings Road ? In L.A.? We're neighbors?

MrMerkin: please lapse into music anytime, all the time.
Blind Faith AND Miles Davis - well done, sir!

new theories: none.

Posted by: camis | April 17, 2009 2:14 PM | Report abuse

The reason you see so many "Luke" characters and parallels is that it can be easily argued that all of our favorite Losties in one way or another fit into Joseph Campbell's monomyth archetype, just as Luke Skywalker does. Campbell's own summary of the concept:
"A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man." -The Hero With a Thousand Faces
In the monomyth, there are various challenges and stages. Our characters are obviously still going through their "road of trials". We'll see if their success, in the end, benefits all of mankind. I suspect they'll end up saving the world in some manner. What's interesting with "Lost" is that through the use of the multiple back stories we can see many of our characters as the "Hero". In the monomyth, the Hero can journey alone or with assistance, so on "Lost" we have Heroes going through their individual adventures and trials (from their own point of view) while simultaneously acting as an assistant to another hero’s adventure.

Posted by: Matt_in_Austin | April 17, 2009 2:27 PM | Report abuse

People with piercings sure did look like Miles in the 90's. From the Northwest grunge scene to the East Village in NY, you could find guys just like that at any indie record store or punk rock show. What did your punk rockers look like in the 90's Pinder? Hot pink leather jackets with teal-green chuck taylors, and black lipstick? Those "punks" were only standing on King's Road for photo ops or maybe as extras on Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

Posted by: a68comeback
---------------------------------------

they certainly didnt look like that here in DC. maybe out in california but around here there wasnt that weak ass pop-punk look. and those spike bottom lip piercings didnt show up for at least a few years after that scene was sposed to take place. that scene would have been somewhere b/w 93-98 (he would have graduated high school in '95 based on a 1977 birthdate).

Posted by: PindarPushkin | April 17, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

punk look was all around, here, in the 90's.

OR.... Miles was ahead of his time haha.

Posted by: camis | April 17, 2009 4:46 PM | Report abuse

1. I can't agree w/ btisinge's April 16, 2009 1:00 PM post enough. Good discussion but reading into some obvious things way too much.
2. At this point I am in the camp that Ilana/Bram are working w/ Ben, and they talked in code when they met on the beach. I like both new characters and actors that play them.
3. I also like theory that Dr. Chang/HalliWAX/CANDLE/WICK may be future versions of Chang and/or has something to do w/ smokey ("smoke from candle").

Posted by: gvlahos9 | April 18, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

I theorize The Island sent a subset of the Oceanic Six back to the 70's precisely because one or more of them CAN change something. The questions then are these:

Who is the change agent?
What will s/he change?
What will happen when s/he makes the change?

The season finale will lead us to these answers.

btw: Like it or not, it's obvious Ben is forgiven for his transgressions.

Posted by: Makaha | April 19, 2009 12:37 AM | Report abuse

then again, perhaps their efforts to "change" the future actually sow the very seeds that RESULT in the SAME future. They can try to change things all they want, but for all they know they are only setting the wheels in motion for the same future to happen. At best, they will see how their decisions created their own future.

So "What Happened" INCLUDES the decision they are making in 1977. They might make "better" choices later on, in their REAL present time, back home, once they see how every little decision leads to future results.

I like the way Hurley is playing around and having fun with everyone. Mischievous. He is the only one enjoying himself. He knows he'll be around in the future, (and his future will be tough) so he can relax and play now.

Also - a big shout out to the composer on this show. The music is consistently wonderful and perfect for the story.

Posted by: camis | April 19, 2009 2:33 PM | Report abuse

Pindar, fair enough, DC explains everything. I don't think straight-edge cop Ian MacKaye would allow anyone with piercings to be fans of Minor Threat (or any of his other PC punk bands). But I would have thought that by the 1990's all those Dischord elite would have welcomed even the Lollapalooza scenesters. I mean, Miles looked exactly like he just finished playing hacky sack at Lollapalooza or Burning Man -- which puts the pierced Miles somewhere between 1991-1997 (although Burning Man was no longer cool after 1993 IMHO).

camis: Kings Road in West London, not West Hollywood. But I'll claim you. We're all neighbors in this LOST community.

Dr. Chang is an evil scientist and Dharma is a cover story for whatever he is actually doing there. He hates those hippies and the fact that he has to go along with any of it in order to work on whatever his secret research is.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 19, 2009 4:07 PM | Report abuse

yes, we're all, like, Smokey Ghosts manifesting as we do. Thank you for claiming me, i liked being claimed. Ditto.

agree about Dr. Chang, and suspect that whatever he is up to will lead to "The Incident" and/or create Smokey.

Posted by: camis | April 19, 2009 5:57 PM | Report abuse

I'm convinced the sonic fence is from the future. No way they could have built that today much less in 1977. And the power source, whatever it is, that provides electricity, clean water, and everything else. I haven't seen a power plant on the few plans we've seen. It would have to be a good size to power all the Dharma stations. Anyone seen a gas pump for the vans? Or how the gasoline would get to the island and then to a filling station?

Ok, maybe I'm expecting too much, but so far the show has been very detailed. So I'm leaning toward some parts of Dharma coming from the future, right now their power source, the sonic fence and maybe some computers that looked to have more modern keyboards (Tempest). Even Locke once asked Ben where all the power came from and Faraday once wondered about it. Ben quipped that it was two giant gerbils on running wheels. Hmmm, Ben has been known to lie...

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 20, 2009 7:28 PM | Report abuse

"This may be apropos of nothing, but I think that either just before the "incident" or immediately after it, we are going to see all the women on the island with small children leave the island with those kids."
Posted by: dojemc

I think you are correct. But I think there may be another factor in causing them to leave, the need for very high levels of secrecy once Chang discovers he can control time.

I won't be surprised either if some of the Dharma folk start fearing the consequences of Chang's work and join the Others in the purge. Tom talked about training the polar bears and how they were smarter than Sawyer, meaning he was likely a Dharma member. I mean, imagine you are a working grunt on an island and a discovery is made where time can be controlled. Experiments are done, one producing a rabbit (number 8)from the past, now there are two of those rabbits. Maybe Chang does the same with himself three times, creating Candle, Halliwax, and Wickmund. People in Dharma start getting worried, then the "incident", possibly sending our Lostees and maybe a few others (and maybe Chang's arm) into 2007. People are evacuated. Its too dangerous for spouses and children. Only essential personnel are to stay on the island. Then some of them start to fear the work being done and the expected temptation to control the future by altering the past. Some Dharma people start talking with the Others, then a plan, then the purge.

The purge was done using the Tempest station and its toxic gas. Faraday and Charlotte later neutralized it. That was a Dharma station. It most likely wasn't built by the Others. Maybe rebel Dharma members built it in order to carry out the purge and also built Dharma stations to withstand the gas, as the Swan was built with sealed doors, to protect the rebels and Others who it seems survived the gassing. The Dharma rebels and Others commit themselves to protecting the island from misuse and so continue to build and use Dharma facilities such as the Looking Glass station to shield the island.

Question: Locke was born in 1956 and in 1954 future Locke told Alpert he would be born in two years and he should visit him. Alpert does in 1956 and later in 1964 when Locke is 8 years old, to test him. How did Alpert get off the island to visit Locke? Dharma and its sub came later. How was Alpert able to get off the island? If he had a way it indicates Alpert and the Others have always had access to get off the island and back, unless Alpert is, like Christian, a ghostly person who can appear anywhere.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 21, 2009 9:59 AM | Report abuse

Assuming the purported Swan incident occurs in 1977, that Chang loses half of his arms, and that the Swan orientation film is recorded (or at least copyrighted) in 1980… what happens in the intervening three years?

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 21, 2009 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Has it been stated the incident happened in 1977? It is said to have happened shortly after the Swan was built and Radzinski is just starting the work on the Swan, so I would imagine its at least a year away.

The theories I've read talk about the Swan sitting on top of a large electromagnetic source and essentially corks it so it can be used. By corking the energy the Swan becomes a bomb of sorts. This may be what caused the Incident. After the incident they realized the energy must be released occassionally to prevent the buildup, like a pressure valve, thus the need to push the button every 108 minute. What that does is anyone's guess. And when the button is not pushed, the electromagnetic buildup causes all the metal to fly in the Swan station. Desmond turns the fail-safe key to not just release the energy but to permanently uncork the energy, preventing it from building up again. The purple sky was the energy being released.

Note however that little has changed on the island. The island was detectable at the time of the purple flash but was again hidden. The donkey wheel still works. New Otherwille still has power. So just what the Swan station was used for is a mystery except it is very important for Radzinski to keep it secret, maybe because its in the Other's territory and by building the Swan there they are breaking the peace treaty with the Others.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 21, 2009 4:50 PM | Report abuse

Just curious, for those who think the hole in the corpse's head was caused by a tooth, do you think he was digging a ditch upside down? I don't seen another option for how a gravitational pull exerted by the island could pull a tooth "up" at a nearly vertical angle from the jaw through the forehead.

Posted by: 1ofamillion | April 21, 2009 8:13 PM | Report abuse

nope. in Tibetan Buddhism it is understood that people who die a sudden, violent, unexpected death are confused about what happened. It was the bullet; the dead guy might not realize that yet and so has connected what he felt with a filling he knew he had. He will come to understand what really happened. He needs time to get out of the shock and sort it out.

write about what you know about..

Posted by: camis | April 21, 2009 8:25 PM | Report abuse

1ofamillion -

i just realized that my last sentence may not have come across as intended. What i meant was that *I* was writing about what I know about, suggesting theories based on what I know... Sorry if it sounded like a dig at you or anyone else! It totally wasn't meant that way.

Posted by: camis | April 21, 2009 9:44 PM | Report abuse

I think we saw Hurley and Miles filling up the van when they returned it last week. My mind seemed to pick up on a gas pump, but I have no point of reference as to where the storage tanks would be under the grass.

I also think the reference to Ann Arbor and the Sayid death-sentence-vote were important pieces intended to make us question Dharma motives at this point in the story. They are showing us the dark underbelly of the DI right now and I think we should keep in mind there are no accidents. Jacob said, "Help me." Maybe because from the time the DI arrived, he has been unable to protect the island from their dark endeavors?

Just curious, do we have a complete lists of dead people Hurley has talked to? Either on or off the island? I would say he has been able to see Jacob on the island, right? Or at least communicate with him?

Hurley's dead friends:
Charlie
Eko
Christian
Ana Lucia
Jacob
Libby? (or just said, "hi")
Abbadon?

Posted by: a68comeback | April 21, 2009 10:50 PM | Report abuse

Also, I'm having a lot of trouble with this site. Anyone else receiving an error screen that registration is required -- even after registered and signed-in? About 1 in 9 comments are making it through. (Perhaps that's just as well since I am certainly no expert!) Still enjoying reading everyone else as usual...!

Posted by: a68comeback | April 21, 2009 10:55 PM | Report abuse

Yea a68, I was having that trouble a few days ago. I closed the browser and started a new one. The problem continued. This was on a PC. I went to a Mac and used firefox with no problem. I'm guessing it was a problem on the web server side and maintaining cookies on the browser. Seems to be ok today.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 22, 2009 8:43 AM | Report abuse

Just curious, do we have a complete lists of dead people Hurley has talked to? Either on or off the island? I would say he has been able to see Jacob on the island, right? Or at least communicate with him?
Posted by: a68comeback

I don't think Hurley has spoken with anyone dead on the island, only off the island. You can add "Dave" to your list. Dave was Hurley's imaginary friend at the institution. Well, he was imaginary, not necessarily dead.

Hurley's dead friends:
Charlie - Yes, spoke to a dead Charlie at the institution after returning from the island.
Eko - Don't remember him seeing a dead Eko.
Christian - Nope, don't remember Hurley seeing him either.
Ana Lucia - Yes, when stopped by the police car while driving Sayid who had been shot with drugs.
Jacob - I don't remember Hurley speaking with Jacob. I think he saw the cabin though.
Libby? (or just said, "hi") - Yea, Ana Lucia said Libby just said hi. But he did see a live Libby at the institution before he went to the island. That's why Libby looked familiar to him though she never let on she was at the institution.
Abbadon? - Abbadon was alive when Hurley saw him at the institution.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 22, 2009 9:43 AM | Report abuse

I just tried to post and it erred as while... will try to redo this....

There must be some sort of yin-yang relationship or symbiosis between the swan and the orchid stations... i did some quick googling and as a fun side note discovered that the 'swan orchid' is unique in that it has separate male and female flowers which is unlike most plants which are like hermaphrodites....

anyway... in my opinion pushing the button resets time back 108 minutes or something like that... or maybe you can't turn the wheel while the button is being pushed... there just has to some relationship...

How much time passed between when the hatch exploded and when Ben turned the wheel... The sky turned purple both times... and we know that time moves differently on the island than it does in the real world....

It is my belief that the incident relates directly to some sort of time jump

Posted by: tjkass | April 22, 2009 9:48 AM | Report abuse

tjkass,
If pushing the button resets time back 108 minutes the Lostees should have noticed that when they returned to the real world time would be off by weeks or months. Nothing like that was noted.

I'm happy with the explanation that the Swan corked an electromagnetic anomoly that builds up some sort of electromagnetic pressure that must be released every 108 minutes or it grows too large and dangerous. The question is, why did they cork it and what does the Swan station do. It may be the source of power for the island including the power Chang was using in time travel tests with the rabbits.

The orchid is probably another station over what was thought to be another electromagnetic anomoly but that turned out to be the donkey wheel, meaning someone else a long time ago had found it and harnessed its power for time travel, which didn't just move rabbits through time, but the whole island.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 22, 2009 10:54 AM | Report abuse

“Has it been stated the incident happened in 1977?”

Not that I’m aware of. I also assume it’s not canon that the swan has is “the incident” later this season. However, assuming it is the incident I would guess that we are not going to live-out or jump three years into the future(to 1980) in the next few episodes. (On the other hand, three whole years in Dharmaville have already been, in my opinion, unnecessary and ill-thought out).

Perhaps the incident propels some people, including the Dharma Initiative, 2+ years into the future giving Chang enough time to be able to record the orientation video with prosthetic arm and for it to be 1980. And, also, short enough time that we don’t have to worry about what happens between the incident and the development of the 108 minute button.

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 22, 2009 2:39 PM | Report abuse

http://www.bullz-eye.com/television/interviews/2009/lost.htm

A neat interview with LindCuse. Maybe a little spoiler-ish on some of the more obscure questions, so don't read if you don't want to know.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | April 23, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Just realized something last night (even though it was a pretty boring clip show). I'm thinking Eloise's map is a map of when the island appears and it only appears during a move (flash). When Desmond did not push the button an electromagnetic buildup caused flight 815 to crash. I'm betting the donkey wheel being off its axis, and thus the numerous time jumps, caused the island to move all over the place, allowing Eloise to pick a point when a plane would be right overhead, Ajira 316.

Guam and Sydney are not on the same flight path so a Sydney to LA flight does not go near a LA to Guam flight, yet both ended up on the island proving the island has moved and possibly continually moves.

Faraday had written a graph of real time versus imaginary time in his notebook. If real time is what we live in and imaginary time is what the island is in, then intersections must be possible using electromagnitism and lots of it. Faraday used electromagnitism to send a consciousness back in time. It looks like the island, with a huge electromagnetic anomaly, can send the whole island through time, or at least some of the people on it. And since land is always moving (continental drift), as time moves the island moves.

So I'm thinking that, considering Eloise and Ben both said the island is always moving and thus cannot be found, it can be found if you find an electromagnetic event in the future (real or imaginary time), making it "stick" in real time. Since Eloise seems to know when these will happen using the Lamppost, it indicates she can see the future, real or imaginary but most likely imaginary. Imaginary time may explain why people die in real time but can be alive in imaginary time, like Locke. It also may explain why Michael could not kill himself, because he was to eventually intersect with imaginary time again (when he went to the island on the freighter) and so could not die in real time and not be there. Once there, in imaginary time, he could then die.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 23, 2009 1:43 PM | Report abuse

I realized something last night, too. I'm confused.

Does the island move PHYSICALLY Or does it move IN TIME?

Posted by: camis | April 23, 2009 2:38 PM | Report abuse

"I realized something last night, too. I'm confused. Does the island move PHYSICALLY Or does it move IN TIME?"
Posted by: camis

Evidently both. At least it moves in real time and physically. Consider that when Yemi's plane crashed on the island the plane was not somehow transported to the island but that the island moved close to Africa, maybe appearing while Yemi's plane was flying over water. A move long ago may have had the island appear right where the BlackRock was, stranding it.

And consider the line between Sydney to LA is northeast/southwest while LA to Guam is pretty much east/west. You'd have to be many thousands of miles off course if the island were stationary. And we know it moves through through some sort of time when a flash occurs because they would go from a sunny day, then a flash, to a rainy night for example.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 23, 2009 3:17 PM | Report abuse

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