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Posted at 10:37 AM ET, 04/ 2/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analysis: 'Whatever Happened, Happened'

By Liz Kelly
Lost

In which Jen Chaney and I, much like Hurley and Miles, ask ridiculously remedial questions in an attempt to understand the ping-ponging storyline of our favorite maddening TV time-suck. Go ahead, read it all (as long as you've already watched last night's show), then jump further down the worm hole at 'Lost' Central. Oh, and come back at 3 p.m. ET for the 'Lost' Hour live chat.


Kate (Evangeline Lilly) in a rare upbeat moment from this week's episode. (ABC)

Jen: Clearly there are numerous important things in "Whatever Happened, Happened" that are worth discussing, including the new, passive-aggressive Jack Shephard, the near-death of Ben Linus and exactly what Richard Alpert plans to do to steal Lil' Ben's innocence. But let's cover what really matters first: "Back to the Future." Liz, I believe your exact words to me a few weeks back were, "For the love of God, turn off the Huey Lewis, get over your George McFly fixation and shut the bleep up about that Robert Zemeckis movie already!" Or something like that. But lo and behold, Hurley brought it up again. So let's let the DeLorean references fly, and fly free!

Liz: No, I never would have remembered that Robert Zemeckis had anything to do it. I know Hurley's reference to "Back to the Future" really must have moved your island and I am overjoyed for you. Maybe next week he'll mention "Back to the Future Part 2." Oh, the anticipation.

But moving right along ... as we predicted, Lil' Ben wasn't actually dead -- despite Sayid's reputation as a killer shot. And although Evangeline Lilly told EW's Doc Jensen that tonight's episode would be Kate-centric, I don't know that it truly deserves that descriptor. If it was Kate-centric at all, it was in service to Ben Linus's backstory. Though, and this may surprise you, I liked Kate more tonight than I have in a long time. She did a good thing saving a kid.

But since you mentioned Jack, let's start there. I don't see his stance as passive-aggressive. Despite what he said to Kate about having saved Ben for her once already, he didn't stay out of the OR to spite her -- he stayed out because he didn't see it as his destiny. But, as Juliet hinted at later in the show, how will he recognize that destiny when it does come along?

Much more after the jump...

Jen: Okay, I am not ready to completely abandon our discussion of the "Back to the Future"/time travel conversation that Hurley and Miles had, because I think it's important. But I will put it on pause to address the issues you raise here, starting with Kate.

Her farewell to Aaron was just HEARTbreaking, and beautifully handled by Evangeline Lilly. Perhaps I felt the emotion in it more acutely because I just finished reading "The Time Traveler's Wife." While I do not want to spoil the novel for anyone who hasn't read it, I can safely say that there are episodes in the book that involve saying hello and goodbye to a child due to time shifts. So that idea was already in my mind this week, which made Kate's weepy adieu to Aaron -- "You were my baby" "Bye bye baby" -- that much more wrenching. But Kate's choice says something about her, doesn't it? She did that because it was the right thing for Aaron. It was a selfless act.

As for Jack, okay, maybe passive-aggressive wasn't quite the right term. I guess what I was trying to say is that he's become very decisive about not taking action. He doesn't want to be the guy trying to save everything and everyone anymore. He's giving it up to God... or in this case, the island. So I guess the question is: Does this mean Jack is becoming a better person -- enlightened and not so controlling -- or a worse one because, as Kate and Juliet suggested, he's not taking action to help people in need when he is the only person who can?

Liz: Another question: will he eventually run out of this newfound supply of patience and return to form as the old "shoot first, ask questions later" Jack?

It's worth noting the transformations taking place this season: Sawyer into a responsible, upstanding citizen of Othersville, John Locke into -- what? -- a dead man walking, and Kate into a selfless human being. Something tells me, though, that Jack's transformation isn't quite as complete.

Not to mention Roger Linus suddenly morphing into a caring father. Kind of a case of too little, too late, though. And Ben into some kind of soulless Other, or so Richard Alpert would have us believe.

Jen: I agree that Jack's transformation is not complete. As he told Juliet, he knew he had to return to the island, but he has no idea why. Locke's "death" seems to have convinced him that he needs to approach everything differently. I like to refer to this as the Costanza Effect, as one of our readers suggested in last week's discussion. Jack is doing the opposite of every instinct he used to have, not unlike George does in a classic episode of "Seinfeld." It won't be long before Jack orders a chicken salad on rye, untoasted, with a cup of tea. Hurley should be able to whip that up.

Liz: It keeps coming back to chicken salad, eh? First Ben's Sayid sandwich, now Jack and the Costanza Effect. Speaking of Sayid, I guess he's hanging out with Vincent somewhere in hiding.

Jen: Well, Vincent, Bernard and Rose. Yes, I expect we'll learn his whereabouts soon.

Another question to raise, this one about Juliet: Do you think she was really upset with Jack for not helping Lil' Ben, or because she still has feelings for him and was genuinely disappointed in him? When Kate told Juliet that she and Jack had been engaged off-island, Juliet looked visibly, albeit momentarily shaken.

Oh, and a related question: Is it me, or when Jack is refusing to help save future Machiavellian murderers, does he look even hotter?

Liz: What? Matthew Fox hot, you say? I hardly notice such things.

I don't think it was about having feelings for Jack. I think Juliet was genuinely disgusted that a doctor, who like her took the Hippocratic oath, refused to aid a dying child. As Juliet said, he's not Ben Linus (the dastard) yet. If anyone should have had motivation to withhold care, it would have been Juliet, who was basically trapped by Ben on the island, became the object of his sick fascination and had to sit idly by as he sent her lover -- Goodwin -- to his death. So, yes, she's genuinely peeved with Jack.

And I totally did not read Juliet's look as shaken when she heard of Jack and Kate's erstwhile engagement. I thought she had the slightest hint of a relieved smile, as in "Oh good, this is proof that Kate didn't spend the last three years saving herself for James."

Jen: Oh, I don't disagree that she's peeved with Jack. I just think there may be a whole host of reasons why. Personally, I think she kinda still digs the guy even though she loves her LaFleur. But before we get too love square-ish, maybe we should clear up something about Roger Linus.

Last week there was a big 'ol debate about whether Lil' Ben said he hated him (his dad) or hates him (still his dad) or just hates it here. Well, I still am not sure what he said, but this much is clear. He hasn't killed his dad yet. Uncle Rico is still alive, well and semi-hitting on Kate. So much for that little theory.

Liz: Right. I went back and re-watched that scene and I think Lil' Ben did in fact say he "hates it here." And we now know that even as Ben was edging closer to death, he was remorseful -- he wanted Kate to tell his dad he was sorry.

But maybe we should talk about Hurley and Miles.

Jen: Oh, well, lookee who wants to talk about "Back to the Future" now. Please. Proceed, Biff. I'll pull up a chair.


Hurley (Jorge Garcia) and Miles (Ken Leung) talk time travel. (ABC)

Liz: It was a funny exchange, but I couldn't tell if the entire thing was designed to elucidate the storyline, confuse us more or remind us -- as it did me -- of Nikki and Paolo and their compulsion to state the obvious.

Though Miles did put the kibosh on the "Back to the Future" version of time travel -- in which we can change the future by changing the past -- just like Faraday did in an earlier episode. But do we believe him?

And even Miles was stumped when asked why Big Ben didn't remember Sayid shooting him as a kid. Oh wait -- unless Richard's "he won't remember any of this" is meant to account for why Ben won't remember meeting the Losties when he was a kid. How convenient.

Jen: Back up the DeLorean for a second. (Enjoy, those DeLorean-style references will keep on coming.)

Liz: If only you could see the joy on my face.

Jen: 1. You cannot compare that Miles/Hurley exchanges to Nikki and Paolo. It's not fair or right. Nikki and Paolo were an affront to "Lost," a distraction. And they were never funny, even when they got attacked by a spider. Okay, that was kinda funny.

2. I was completely with Miles. I totally understood what he was saying. I think the writers did what they often do -- they use the characters to raise the questions the fans have been asking. That's exactly what Hurley was doing.

Liz: I compare them only in that Nikki and Paolo were meant to be an aid to new viewers and I think tonight Hurley and Miles were acting as viewers advocates as well. Both were very meta. In one instance (tonight) this worked. In another (Nikki and Paolo) it did not.

Jen: Exactly on-point on the meta thing. That's what I think, too, it's just that Nikki and Paolo were meta-sucktastic.

Liz: So, Lea Thompson character person -- we basically agree. We're just arguing the same points in different ways.

Jen: Yes. Re: the Sayid thing. That's the sticking point. Miles didn't have an answer to that question: Why wouldn't older Ben remember him? (The fact that he hadn't even considered that makes me wonder about Miles.) Are the writers suggesting that they don't know the answer either?

Liz: Could be. I don't think we learned anything from Hurley and Miles. They were channeling our (the viewers') collective frustrations. So, yes, they may be suggesting that, as Hurley said, "time travel is confusing."

And, as Miles replied to Hurley, and us, we should "get used to it."

Jen: Or is it what you said, that Alpert wipes all those memories away? My problem with that theory is that Ben seems to have a big picture view of everything. So it seems like he knows how important it is for him to get shot as a child. But maybe he doesn't realize that until after he turns the wheel?

Liz: Honestly, leaving some of the time travel questions unanswered probably works in the writers' favor.

Jen: Well, sure. I just hope they know the answers. Because someone around here should. And by the way, my name is not "Lea Thompson character person." It's Lorraine, thank you.

And actually, I do disagree with you on one thing: I think Miles and Hurley did clarify some of the time travel stuff. The idea that time isn't in a "straight line" anymore since the donkey wheel was turned, for example. Again, many people probably got that, but this was a way to clarify. You know, except for the Sayid part, which still doesn't totally make sense yet.

Liz: About Ben... did you ever read "Pet Sematary?" Because Richard's warning that Ben wouldn't be the same if he saved him sure reminded me of that book's premise -- that animals, and one child, buried on that freaky ground came back somehow changed and soulless.

Jen: No, I haven't read "Pet Sematary," but could this development explain Ben's contention that he was "born on this island?" He knows that isn't literally true, but figuratively, he may see the moment he joined Richard and the Hostiles as his born-again moment.

Liz: So what does Richard do? Does he have a fully-functional and staffed OR under the temple or will he trust Smokey to somehow patch Ben up?

Jen: Well, I think Smokey will enter into all this next week. It seems like Richard intends to do some sort of massive brainwashing on Ben. What that entails, I do not know. But I wonder if it involves excessive shopping from the J. Crew catalogue. Clearly Alpert is a regular customer.

Liz: We disagree again, Jen Chaney. I think Richard is aided in his remolding of Ben by the J. Peterman catalog, not J. Crew -- because Big Ben seems to always be wearing clothes appropriate to a safari. (Just sticking with the Seinfeldian theories you advanced already.)

Also, that other Other warned Richard that he shouldn't save Ben without asking "Eelie or Charles." Did he mean Ellie?

Jen: Ellie is a fair assumption, yes. Which suggests perhaps they were in charge and Richard -- and subsequently Ben -- usurped that power, something people have suspected for a while. And by people, I mean viewers.

Liz: One final point about Ben's fate and how he arrived in Richard's care: Kate made a big deal about saving Ben because he wouldn't have been shot if they hadn't returned and because he was only a kid and, as Juliet vocalizes, not yet that Ben Linus. But Kate has been given a pivotal opportunity. Richard's conditions for saving Ben could well be paraphrased as "If I save him, he will become a major pain in the rear and make your life and everyone else on this island's a living hell. Oh, and he'll be soulless."

Why would she go ahead and allow that to happen?

Jen: Do you think she knows something more about a connection between Ben and Aaron? Here's my theory, for now:

She knows that Ben's existence is crucial to the island. And she must realize that Aaron has to be born on the island. So by saving Ben and keeping the past preserved, she's saving Aaron, too. Although if we believe Miles, that would happen anyway, no matter what Kate does.

But all this has me thinking more about the title of the episode. "Whatever Happened, Happened." Faraday said that a few episodes back when he was convincing Sawyer not to meddle in the whole situation with Amy and her (late) husband. Sawyer dismissed it, and meddled anyway.

Well, Kate and Sawyer meddled here again. Couple that with Miles's inability to explain the Sayid/Ben situation, and I think maybe the writers are trying to suggest that we really should doubt Faraday's theory. Maybe this isn't how it happened before, and Sawyer and Kate have done something that will change everything. I don't know, I could be wrong. I'm very wishy-washy at the moment. My mind is just so focused on saving the clock tower, it's hard to think about anything else.

Liz: Speaking of Aaron... I think this question is on everyone's mind: Is Claire still alive? Kate seems to think so and it was never actually resolved. We just assume she is because she haunts illusory cabins with her dad, Christian Shephard. But I think this episode called that assumption into question again. Not that I think Emilie de Ravin is going to suddenly return to the show, but there may be some legs left in that storyline.

Jen: Yeah, I thought about that, too. I think we will see Claire again, not necessarily as a character in every episode, but she'll reappear again. As to why Kate says she's alive, well, she has no concrete evidence either way. But maybe she senses it somehow, since she's so close to Aaron? Anyway, I agree, we shouldn't be so quick to close Claire's coffin.

Do we want to talk about Cassidy at all? I guess Kate's delivery of a wad of cash finally confirms what Sawyer whispered to Kate on the copter: Take care of Clementine for me.

Liz: Yep, and we should talk about her since she seems to have become Kate's one and only confidante back on the mainland. But Cassidy struck me as a bit manipulative. You?

Jen: Well, she was -- and maybe still is, for all we know -- a con artist. So she may still have an untrustworthy side. Personally, I thought she was working for Ben or Widmore.

I was just waiting for that reveal. I totally thought when she poured Kate that liquor, she was setting her up to give Aaron to Widmore or one of Ben's people in exchange for money. But not to be. That disappointed me a little. I expected more intrigue in the whole why-Kate-gave-up Aaron backstory.

Liz: Agreed. It seemed like she kept subtly pushing Kate to return to the island and my thought was that she assumed Kate would leave Aaron with her to do so, meaning she could then hand Aaron over to the highest bidder. But Kate threw a curveball by thinking about someone other than herself for once.

Jen: This probably has nothing to do with anything, but did you think Kate totally looked like Dorothy from "The Wizard of Oz" the first time she went to Cassidy's? She had the red scrunchy in her hair -- at first I thought her hair might even be braided -- those white puffy sleeves and she was singing "Catch a Falling Star," which may as well be "Over the Rainbow."

Liz: I thought she looked like she was ready to jump out of a haystack on "Hee Haw." Does that count?

And she was listening to Patsy Cline's "She's Got You" in the car on the way there. One of the recurring lines in that song is "I've got your picture, she's got you." Which kind of foreshadowed Kate's leaving Aaron with grandma Littleton and taking off with only a snapshot of him.

Jen: Oh, nice catch on Patsy Cline. Great. I might cry again.

All right, we've gone around in lots of circles. Let's start looking to next week. But first, we really need to analyze the last words uttered in this episode, by one John Locke to one adult Ben Linus:

"Welcome back to the land of the living."

Liz: That was one loaded line. Kind of echoes that idea of being born again that we talked about re: Lil' Ben above, eh?

Jen: Yes. When Locke said "land of the living," I perceived a touch of irony there. As in, are they really living? Or are they only alive on the island?

Liz: Or -- this is just coming to me as I type -- has Ben truly been born again again? What I mean is, Alpert took his soul. Has he somehow gotten it back by returning to the island? (That theory, by the way, can be destroyed in about a millisecond. All it takes is Ben Linus committing one characteristically horrible act in next week's show.)

Jen: Interesting. Based on the teaser for next week's episode, Ben is going to try to redeem himself in some fashion. And -- given that we've now returned to that moment at the dock in "Rashomon" fashion several times now -- I suspect we'll go back there again to see what happens from Ben's perspective. But perhaps we can discuss that, and more, at 3 p.m.?

Liz: We can indeed, Teen Wolf. But first, let's share our candidates for quote of the week. Vote for your fave. Or, if we missed a good zinger, share it in comments below.

Next Week -- 'Dead Is Dead': To atone for sins of the past, Ben must attempt to summon the smoke monster in order to be judged.

By Liz Kelly  | April 2, 2009; 10:37 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Comments

Honestly, I thought the Greek Chorus/Hurley and Miles scene came very close to being over the top... it was jarring to me.

Posted by: AmberGale | April 2, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

I don't think Kate said "You were my baby" I just think she said "Good Bye my Baby" or just Good bye baby"

Posted by: nh26 | April 2, 2009 10:57 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, but last night’s episode was a total cop-out. The writers having to explain the time travel rules through awkward exposition between Hurley and Miles was amateurish. Even as a self referential wink to the bloggers it was not up to the standards we expect. What is happening to the Losties in the 1970s already happened but they don’t remember it because they haven’t experienced it yet makes no sense. The writers even admitted it made no sense because Ben would remember meeting them in the 1970s and being shot by Sayid since that was part of his “past.” Having Richard erase Ben’s memory when he healed him was lame. The writer’s had totally painted themselves in a corner with time travel paradoxes and this was a cheap way to get out of it.

Posted by: buffysummers | April 2, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

I thought Kate said, 'Goodbye baby.' What was Kate doing telling everyone who would listen (ok, only Cassidy and Mrs. Littleton) about the lie?

Posted by: jes11 | April 2, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

i agree with you guys about liking Kate better in this episode. I was so happy to see that her reason for returning to the island was to find Claire so Aaron would have a proper mother and not because she wanted to go back to find Sawyer. It caught me off guard, in a good way. It adds depth to her character and really makes her grow up. I also am doing the "i was right dance" about her leaving Aaron with Claire's mom.

I adored the conversation between Hurley and Miles and almost choked when Hurley said "I'm seeing if I'm going to disappear." Woohoo, back to the future style! They were putting into words what we all have been thinking. And eventhough Hurley stumped Miles with the "So why wouldn't old ben remember that Sayid shot him?" the powers that be covered their asses when Richard said "He won't remember any of this."

A tad bit of irony I noticed. Jack refuses to help Ben because of what Ben had become when the Losties first arrived on 815. He said he had already fixed ben once (for Kate) and that he wouldn't do it again. Of course, as we found out when Richard said "he will be different [from the current li'l Ben]," the island healing ben basically makes him into the evil big ben. If Jack had just saved him, he probably would've continued to be good little Ben, his daddy issues would probably have been resolved thanks to the remorse of Uncle Rico, and he would have lived happily ever after.

Theory about smokey: Whatever Richard does to Ben is what created Smokey - whether it's Ben's old soul, or whatever magic is conjured to save him. That is why Ben has the power to summon Smokey.

And a new thought about Faraday: Sawyer asked RA if they had burried Jughead. RA took this info back to the Others - and to Ellie and Charles who, as we found out last night, are the leaders in 1977. I think they tried to bury Jughead between 54 and 77, but something is going wrong. Ellie realized that Faraday would be with Sawyer and sought him out for help with a solution. Faraday went with the Others as a favor from Dharma in order to protect both societies on the island. He is working with Radzinsky to build the Swan and has negotiated with the Others to locate the station in Other territory, circumventing the truce for this specific occasion.
Just a thought!

Also, since Inman and Radzinsky worked together, one of them must have survived the Purge. My guess is that it was both who survived. When Radzinsky found out that the rest of Dharma was dead, he shot himself. Or, Inman came in after the Purge and once Radzinsky trusted him to carry on, he shot himself.

Anyway, better get productive at work before I don't have a job.

Posted by: eet7e | April 2, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Actually, I think Kate said "bye bye, Baby"

Posted by: AmberGale | April 2, 2009 11:16 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the catch on Kate's parting words to Aaron! We've made the fix above.

Posted by: Liz Kelly | April 2, 2009 11:22 AM | Report abuse

The irony of Locke’s last line was not that Ben was back in the land of the living, but that Locke was. As in, “Hey, remember killing me, well it didn’t stick.”

Locke does not do well away from the island – fails his tasks, can’t walk, killed by Ben, etc., but you get him to the island and his confident swagger is “reborn”.

Posted by: Matt27 | April 2, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

I think Liz and Jen are giving Kate way too much credit in this discussion. Kate always acts on pure instinct. Which gets her in trouble, sometimes saves her, and was evident last night. Planning for the future and revisitng the past gives her migraines. But living right IN the moment is her thing. Let's say Ben Linus was Hitler, and she knew it. In that moment, when a kid had been shot, she would do the same thing to save him. Juliet did it because of her oath (and that was why she had to interrupt Jack's shower to lecture him). But Kate gave Aaron back to Grandma because it seemed like a good idea at the time. She said Claire is still alive and she wants to go back and find her because it sounded right at that moment. She will sleep with Jack or Sawyer (or Uncle Rico for that matter) if the moment presents itself -- because she has 20 minutes to kill and a mild attraction to anything with neck grunge and a brooding personality.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 2, 2009 11:29 AM | Report abuse

"Why wouldn't older Ben remember him?"

Didn't we learn/decide that 2004 Ben wouldn't remember Sayid because Lil' Ben didn't meet him until the equivalent of 2007? Just like future Dez didn't remember time traveling Farraday knocking on his hatch door until it happened in the equivalent past? I imagine when Ben wakes up from the paddling he got from Sun, he'll remember that Sayid shot him as a lad.

Posted by: beisbol | April 2, 2009 11:29 AM | Report abuse

Not sure that I understand why Jen and Liz don't understand the obvious. "What Happened, Happened" is the name of the episode. The writers aren't trying to tell us that what happened can be changed with that title.

In addition, Jack's decision not to operate on li'l Ben is what allows Ben to become what he is. By not operating, Kate and Sawyer have to take him to the others. If Jack helps, there's no sketchy Ben!

And also, who says that Ben doesn't know the Losties when he shows up as Henry Gale? Do we know that for sure? No.

Posted by: peteyamama | April 2, 2009 11:29 AM | Report abuse

i'm pretty sure Kate said "drill, baby, drill"

Posted by: wojoko | April 2, 2009 11:31 AM | Report abuse

How is Ben's not remembering Sayid shot him any different than Desmond not remembering Daniel knocking on the hatch until he was on the boat w/Penny?

At the time Ben first met the Losties Sayid had not yet gone back to 1977 and shot Ben so he wouldn't have recognized him.

Hurley's right, time travel is confusing and Miles is right we need to get used to it.

Posted by: jes11 | April 2, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Jack doesn't want to be in charge, except for the fact that he has to take charge in his act of not taking charge.

Jack ALWAYS has to be in control. ALWAYS.
In refusing to help gentle Ben, Jack was not staying out of it, Jack was not declining to take charge -- he was, once again, taking control in the hope/expectation that gentle Ben would die, thereby preventing adult nefarious Ben from coming to fruition.

Jack is a control freak, whether it is in taking direct control, or in indirect passive control.

Posted by: ooyah32 | April 2, 2009 11:33 AM | Report abuse

I would like to nominate another line for quote of the night: "You didn't like the old me, Kate."

Posted by: paujwill | April 2, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but that lose of innocence thing keeps bringing me back to Peter Pan (the book). Peter was able to go to and from Neverland because he never grew up. He never lost his innocence or his childish sense of wonder and excitement.
Now we have another island (not Neverland) full of wonders and also dangers. The DI are kind of the Lost Boys and the O6 are like Wendy. Jack especially was able to return to the Island by being able to believe in the unseen rather than by relying on science.
This thought is mostly unformed, but I believe it makes the Others the pirates. Not sure if this makes sense as Richard Alpert is the only onewho seems ageless. Ben even after his tranformation grows up.
Sorry if this doesn't make enough sense. I need to reread Peter Pan, but there is something about a loss of innocence meaning banishment. Maybe that's why Ben could not return on his own to the island after he left.

Posted by: L8yF8 | April 2, 2009 11:41 AM | Report abuse

Pauljwill - right on the money for the quote of the episode.

Posted by: SteelHop | April 2, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

If Ben loses his soul to the smoke moster.. Did Locke lose part of his when he was being pulled into the cave and then was let go? When younger Ben takes over the "OTHERS",does he make a deal with Wentworth to leave and Wentworth makes a ton of money knowing the future.....

Posted by: crudeone | April 2, 2009 11:46 AM | Report abuse

What Kate said when she left Aaron was, "Bye-bye baby", not "You were my baby."

I thought the scenes between Kate and Jack and Kate and Sawyer and Juliet and Sawyer and Juliet and Jack were mostly sort of "soap-opera-ish" this week. There was entirely too much emoting and not nearly enough thinking going on.

I was somewhat interested in the little chemistry between Roger (Ben's dad) and Kate, though. Maybe in this timeline, Roger and Kate get together and Kate turns into Ben's evil step-mother and THAT's how Ben gets so screwed up. I can totally see it. Kate is a very irritating character.

Posted by: RebeccaHartong | April 2, 2009 11:46 AM | Report abuse

I thought this was a great episode. The conversation between Hurley and Miles directed us to understand why Jack could not save Ben. It shows us that life is progressing on a predetermined path and no matter what we do, it cannot be changed. Jack thought he was taking an action that would change history instead it was that action that ensured that Ben would become who he is.

I think we learned that time on the island is circular rather than linear and that is why people who are dead can be alive on the island. Someone like Locke and now Jack are guided by what is supposed to happen based on a sequence/destiny that cannot be changed. Once you get linked into that you intuitively know what to do. It is not faith but instead science/logic that guides decisions (maybe). Which would suggest that there is not free will. But it kind of turns into a which comes first the chicken or the egg situation. The question becomes how did the path which cannot be altered ever get set? Is it a path determined by a higher being or was it done for a first time sometime and the laws of the universe dictate that those events cannot ever be changed

Posted by: suzsaf | April 2, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

>> Maybe this isn't how it happened before, and Sawyer and Kate have done something that will change everything. <<

Let's not forget the explanation by Mrs. Hawking, as demonstrated by Desmond and Charlie -- little things can be changed. Little nonessential things can be how they did not happen before, but eventually the universe will course correct, and whatever was/is supposed to happen happens.

Posted by: ooyah32 | April 2, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

When Kate visited Cassidy, Cassidy said that Sawyer hadn't done anything for his daughter. But I thought Sawyer directed the reward money (he got while in prison) to his daughter.

Posted by: crgr | April 2, 2009 11:50 AM | Report abuse

I think Ben won't remember 'any of this' because Richard's going to get all donkey-wheelie time-travelie to save his life.

I'm kind of annoyed at all the explanations that involve 'souls'.

Posted by: Arachnae | April 2, 2009 11:51 AM | Report abuse

I still just don't like Kate enough to like last night's episode, to be honest.

I agree Miles and Hurley were just being meta. I can't read too much into it, except that there's something in the fate of Daniel Faraday that makes Miles so secure in his time-slip knowledge. THAT is something I'm waiting to hear.

Honestly, when Kate didn't show up with Aaron, I thought she probably gave him to Claire's mother. It was so convenient that she showed up not knowing about his existence to be ignored.

Posted by: Chasmosaur1 | April 2, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

My favorite line(s): when Hurley points out that grownup Ben didn't remember Sayid, Miles said, "Huh. I didn't think of that." And Hurley just said, "huh." For some reason, that exchange (and the looks on their faces) just cracked me up.

Posted by: Janine1 | April 2, 2009 11:57 AM | Report abuse

A couple of coincidences I'd like to point out:

"The Green Mile" was on TV last night, too. One of the characters is Percy Wetmore, played by Doug Hutchison, who also plays Horace Goodspeed on "Lost". Both shows involve miraculous powers of healing, and both characters were done in by a poisonous cloud.

Also, Horus was an Egyptian god represented by an eye. Pharaohs were considered to be incarnations of Horus. So, is our Horace a pharaoh?

Posted by: kmsb42 | April 2, 2009 12:00 PM | Report abuse

Farraday telling Desmond something in the hatch in the past and then Desmond remembering it in the future is a red herrings. Farraday says that Desmond is unique (may be because of the electro hatch blast) and that is why he was able to learn something in the past and suddenly remember it in the future. It doesn't work like that for anyone else.

I think adult Ben does recognize the Losties when he's captured. He had files on all of them and asks for the four 06 that end up in 1977 to be brought to him. He has files on these people. He claims he has files on everyone but we never see that.

Posted by: L8yF8 | April 2, 2009 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Someone explain me this; Miles was explaining to Hurley about time travel and said, "when Ben turned the wheel...".
How does Miles know about the wheel and that Ben turned it? Only 2 (living) characters have been on the show that have seen the wheel and know what it does (that we know so far). Not much was made about the fact that Miles said this, so I'm thinking it was a script screwup.

Posted by: no2pencil | April 2, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Another coincidence: The lady that Aaron ended up with in the grocery store looked a lot like Claire, although she obviously was not Claire. Could it be that Aaron went to her because she looked like Claire from behind? I recall that Claire revealed herself to Aaron in an earlier episode (I don't recall which one - perhaps someone could do the research).

Posted by: jtr5579 | April 2, 2009 12:05 PM | Report abuse

There's a bon mot just waiting to be written somehow connecting the upcoming Land of the Lost movie to our LOST show.

(Watch the trailer on the Apple site - it's great - plus, remember the song from the show - "...living in the land of the lost...")

Posted by: HarlanStanton | April 2, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

I think you guys (and Doc Jensen) are being way too forgiving with this episode.

1. Killer-to-the-core Sayid being unable to successfully off Lil Ben from ten paces was an extremely weak contrivance, particularly after all that chicken-killing exposition from last week.

2. The big Sawyer-Kate helicopter whisper reveal was weak, and not just because it was widely predicted. To me, (and I could be wrong) the writers pitched it as a secret that contributed to tearing Jack and Kate's off-island romance apart, when it's really a fairly innocuous request in the end. (Really? Kate can't tell Jack that Sawyer's deep-dark-secret request was "look after my kid?")

3. I thought that explaining away Kate's Aaron obsession as healing her boo-hoo over Sawyer was weak, as was the resolution to the "what she did with Aaron" question. Again, it's a little ridiculous to set it up with Kate's super-dramtic "don't ever ask me" to Jack when the answer to Aaron's whereabouts is ... he's with his grandma.

4. I found Kate's desperate desire to save Lil Ben unconvincing. I get that the writers were playing with the old "if you could go back in time and kill Hitler" conundrum, since Ben is the source of so much Lostie suffering. But throughout the whole episode I kept asking myself "why does Kate care again?" Not to mention the fact that she didn't even seem to consider the moral implications of saving someone who may go on (if the timeline holds) to wipe out all of Dharmaville in the purge.

Don't get me wrong, I love the show, obviously. But this was a pivotal episode in a lot of ways and I think the writers dropped the ball with a lot of it.

Posted by: Johnny_Zen | April 2, 2009 12:13 PM | Report abuse

How do we know for a fact that Ben doesn't remember Sayid? What ep showed this? and why would Miles know anyway whether or not Ben recognized Sayid?

Posted by: skitch00 | April 2, 2009 12:17 PM | Report abuse

Well, we cannot make any reasonable judgment on Jack’s actions because
(a) Hippocrates, presumably, didn’t have time-travel on his mind when he wrote his oath, and
(b) the writers have frustratingly thus far failed to describe their garbled version of time travel.

For example, if EXACTLY “whatever happened, happened”, then Jack did not (the ‘first’ time round) help Ben and therefore should (once again?) not have helped in last night’s episode. Alternatively, if BROADLY “whatever happened, happened”, then Jack perhaps had a choice. If LaFleur really is a thinking leader (like all shirtless murdering conmen!) then he should have been able to work out, and therefore tell Jack, how the island time works after three years.

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 2, 2009 12:18 PM | Report abuse

Pauljwill - I second the motion. Best quote of the night.

Posted by: keeferph | April 2, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Ben has such a perfect poker-face that he could conceal his recognition of anybody, even an Iraqi who had blown him away at age 12.

Posted by: csteiger | April 2, 2009 12:23 PM | Report abuse

Cuse & Lindehof have said that Claire will be absent entirely from Season 5 but will return in Season 6.

Posted by: jhusson1 | April 2, 2009 12:27 PM | Report abuse

“At the time Ben first met the Losties Sayid had not yet gone back to 1977 and shot Ben so he wouldn't have recognized him.”

We’ll know the answer to this when the writers bother to tell us about how they see time travel. Perhaps Desmond is so special that he is the only one that can change what happened in the past (e.g.,, The Constant) and remember what has been changed in the past (e.g., being summoned by Faraday at the Swan).

Or, perhaps Ben would remember Sayid (apart from Alpert making him conveniently forget) because Sayid was always in Ben’s ‘past (i.e., Faraday was not always in Desmond’s past and so only remembered Faraday ‘later’). Because the Alpert line (~“he won’t remember any of this”) seemed clumsy and convenient, I fear that the writers are leaning towards the latter.

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 2, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

I thought the biggest point of the Miles/Hurley conversation was that they actually did not come to a conclusion. They were arguing opposite sides of "can change the past, and therefore our present/future" and "nope, the past is set in stone" and ended up looking at each other saying "huh?" They (the writers) very intentionally did not answer the question. We (the viewers) are not yet supposed to know if time travelers can or cannot change the past. We are given hints (Faraday says nope, Hawking says only in small ways, the changes at the Barracks suggest yes) but we have not been given the answer. That doesn't mean that the writers don't know the answer. Certainly it's possible that they will make a huge mess of the explanation and never satisfactorily explain it, but for now, I have faith that they know what they're doing, and I'm enjoying the mystery. If we actually knew which it is, it would take away a lot of the drama. The characters don't know for a fact if they can change things or not, so we should we?

Posted by: emfzlx | April 2, 2009 12:35 PM | Report abuse

Going back in time to last week, was anyone surprised that they "tased" Sayid? I don't remember stun guns in the 70's. I thought they became commercially available in the late 80's.

I think Faraday faded out, that's why Hurly keeps checking his hands. Also love all the sandwich references -- very Costanzaesque.

Posted by: lostinspades | April 2, 2009 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Johnny Zen -- I agree with you, especially about Sayid's not killing Ben and Kate's not being able to tell Jack that Aaron was with the grandmother. We were set up to believe something terrible happened (Widmore captured him, for example, by using a Claire-lookalike in the store).
Lame episode in my opinion.

Posted by: scandibaby | April 2, 2009 12:47 PM | Report abuse

"Miles didn't have an answer to that question: Why wouldn't older Ben remember him? (The fact that he hadn't even considered that makes me wonder about Miles.) Are the writers suggesting that they don't know the answer either?"

I took Miles' thoughtful pause to mean that he was considering the possibility that Ben did remember it and knew what he was doing.

Posted by: HardyW | April 2, 2009 12:49 PM | Report abuse

"I thought the biggest point of the Miles/Hurley conversation was that they actually did not come to a conclusion. They were arguing opposite sides of "can change the past, and therefore our present/future" and "nope, the past is set in stone" and ended up looking at each other saying "huh?" They (the writers) very intentionally did not answer the question."

I was going to say this as well. That scene wasn't meant to be an exposition. It was meant to be a reflection of the audience, IMHO.

Posted by: VTDuffman | April 2, 2009 12:50 PM | Report abuse

"The idea that time isn't in a "straight line" anymore since the donkey wheel was turned, for example. Again, many people probably got that, but this was a way to clarify."

Stephen Jay Gould had a book called "Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle" about how some aspects of time are ... cyclical and others are linear.

Of course, in our world the cyclical parts are never repeated, it's just patterns that reemerge (spring always comes, and the crocuses bloom first, but individual bulbs don't bloom in the same order from year to year).

I guess I like the LP on the turntable analogy for Lost purposes.

Posted by: HardyW | April 2, 2009 12:52 PM | Report abuse

Man, I loved this episode. The whole Miles/Hurley thing just seemed like a designed shout-out, as they basically parroted all of the arguments and issues that are strewn across the web. And when Hurley stumped Miles with why Ben didn't recognize Sayid, I read that as a LindeCuse "d'oh!" Which they promptly resolved with the "if I heal him, he will forget all of this ever happened." Seemed to me to be a conscious nod that this was all deus ex machina to cover for their prior screwup.

But the best individual line was Locke at the end -- especially with that look in his eye. Right up there with "Heeeeere's Johnny" from The Shining (ok, well, without so much of the crazy).

I saw last night as a continuation of last week's theme, how the O6 create Bad Ben. First Sayid betrays him; then Jack refuses to help him; meanwhile, Kate's mommy instinct and Juliet's medical training kick in, which prevent them from letting him die; so they all end up with Eyeliner Man basically telling them that their actions are what will create the soulless monster they were trying to destroy. It's about how good intentions -- and our own inherent characters -- can together make for bad results.

I also like how they're playing with our own expectations by showing us only part of the story -- until last week, hadn't we all assumed that Bad Ben grew out of his dad's mistreatment? And that's certainly what Sayid saw, too. Now, two weeks later, it's clear we were all wrong -- and that, in fact, it was our assumptions about what we "knew" that ultimately led to disaster. Which is fun.

"When Kate visited Cassidy, Cassidy said that Sawyer hadn't done anything for his daughter. But I thought Sawyer directed the reward money (he got while in prison) to his daughter.

Posted by: crgr | April 2, 2009 11:50 AM"

Agree with this -- was wondering about the omission, thinking the writers missed something. But then I remembered Cassidy's history with the con. And if you flash a wad of cash in front of a conman, wouldn't he immediately start looking for a score, regardless of how much he had in the bank? So that really put me on edge about Cassidy in the rest of the story (ditto on the drink near the end) -- I think there's more to her that still needs to be revealed.

Posted by: laura33 | April 2, 2009 12:53 PM | Report abuse

Agree on the weakness of everything surrounding Kate's story last night. Could we have heard her say to Jack at least once, "Oh, if we can go back to the island, maybe we can save Claire, because I know she'll be a much more stable mother than I am" instead of screaming she won't go back until her last-minute change of heart?

I didn't find the departure from Aaron heart-wrenching at all beause I kept thinking of how Aaron was going to feel the next day, abandoned by the only mother he remembers, while he was sleeping, having only been shown a photo of someone called Grandma. Uh, child abandonment, emotional cruelty, anyone?

And ditto on the vote for Jack's comment about Kate not liking the old me.

Posted by: argon412 | April 2, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

peteyamama wrote: "In addition, Jack's decision not to operate on li'l Ben is what allows Ben to become what he is. By not operating, Kate and Sawyer have to take him to the others. If Jack helps, there's no sketchy Ben!"

Lets remember who thought up taking lil'Ben to the Others. Juliet. Otherwise Ben would have died. Ben is saved to become evil thanks to Juliet, Kate and Sawyer, but only Juliet could have know what would happen to Ben losing his "innocense", whatever that means but we know its not likely to be good. You could see it in Juliet's face as she came up with the idea. So in a nutshell, its all Juliet's fault and may be why Ben claims Juliet for himself.

I also found it convenient that the Temple was just a few steps away from where they brought Ben considering this is an island that can take days to get from one place to the other. I think the writers are getting sloppy.

It was also important to hear RA say he didn't answer to Ellie or Charles. This supports my theory that RA is an ancient god. And the Temple is smokey's place and I think smokey is the god of the underworld, the right god to take a dying boy to. And consider that RA did not just take lil'Ben. He told Kate/Sawyer about the loss of innocense and basically was prepared to give lil'Ben back to Kate if they would not agree to that. In other words, it seemed that RA was acting above board and not being devious or secretive, just as a god would act.

I agree with Jonny-Zen at 12:13 PM. The show was somewhat lame and it seems the writers may be having trouble wrapping up their plots from years ago. Why would Sawyer's secret be so vital that Kate would not tell her fiance leading to Jack breaking off the engagement? But I did find it interesting that Kate's obsession with Arron was simple love, to be loved. This was a turning point for Kate and really the only real character development in the show. I also thought the scene in the grocery store was a turning point. She thought she lost Aaron and with the lawyer threatening to take Aaron Kate realized she could never live with losing him, so gave him to grandma where he would be safe.

Now, my big question from years ago (my years, not Lost years): Why are Dharma and the Hostiles at war? I see no reason for one to either fear the other or feel a need to drive the other off the island. It would be simple enough for both to live on that big island in separate camps. So why the war, the truce, the lines that cannot be crossed with everyone carrying guns? And where are the Others getting their guns and ammo from if they've been there forever? They don't have a sub or presumably airdrops. Who is supplying the Others and what do they have to fear from Dharma? And where did the young men with RA come from? If they were in 1954 too they would be much older. Are the Others getting fresh troops? Do they not age yet Widmore/Ellie aged? I'm realizing we know little to nothing about the Others.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 2, 2009 12:57 PM | Report abuse

Spoilerish about Claire - I just wanted to clarify that Claire (Emily de Ravin) will be back on for season six. It was reported last year that the writers asked her to sit out this season but she is still under contract and we will find out what happened to her and I don't think it will just be a cameo since she will be a regular cast member again. She confirmed this on EW. http://www.ew.com/ew/package/0,,20045108_20223651,00.html?bclid=1764764835&bctid=1807599233

Posted by: Lost_Fan | April 2, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Candidates for best lines:

Jack to Kate after Kate says she liked the old Jack better: "You didn't like the old Jack".

Paraphrasing 'cause I can't remember the exact quote, Sawyer to Kate about his being with Juliette, " I've grown-up alot in three years".

Posted by: hodie | April 2, 2009 1:02 PM | Report abuse

"The DI are kind of the Lost Boys and the O6 are like Wendy. Jack especially was able to return to the Island by being able to believe in the unseen rather than by relying on science.
This thought is mostly unformed, but I believe it makes the Others the pirates."

Oh I like that.

Posted by: HardyW | April 2, 2009 1:03 PM | Report abuse

I didn't think they said "shouldn't we ask Charles and Ellie" I thought it was "charles and Keemey"...as in the commando that came back on the freighter...

Posted by: amybc291 | April 2, 2009 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Sometimes it seems as though through these discussions some Lost theories, posted enough times, are taken as Lost fact (such as Claire is Dead). Here are a couple others to revisit…

There is an assumption that Desmond only knew about meeting Daniel at the hatch after he “caught up” to the time that past Daniel told him. However, it is also possible that he just remembered it. The fact that Lost shows these two incidents back to back, does not mean that the exact same amount of time has passed for both characters (they are in different times). We often saw past Losties a few days in, while three years had passed for present Losties back home. For Desmond, many years had passed and a lot happened since Daniel knocked on the hatch door, and it is possible that Desmond had just forgotten until the memory came to the surface in a dream. I bring this up because there is discussion that a future self must catch up to a certain point to remember something that happened in the past (as people are theorizing for Ben to remember being shot), but other than the Desmond incident, I don’t see this being the case. As far as I can tell, whatever happened, happened.

Anther theory that has been posted a number of times is that the island saved Sawyer when he was shot by Others, but as far as I can tell the Other never got off a shot. Juliet shot from behind Sawyer before the Other was able to shoot him. Sawyer was surprised because he heard a gunshot and Juliet was behind him so he did not know she fired. This is important because this incident is often cited in other “island saving people” theories.

Posted by: Matt27 | April 2, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Oh, damn, bevjims, somehow I didn't even click to it before reading your abbreviations, but RA? Egyptian sun-god anyone?

I guess I'm the only one who isn't bothered by the "Kate not revealing Sawyer's secret" bit. He wasn't embarrassed about helping his kid -- he was embarrassed that he had a kid, who he basically deserted. We knew that be conned and dumped the woman who was pregnant with his child. But no one else on the island did. Think he'd really want that passed on to his main rival, who already hated him.

So, yeah, wasn't some big new "reveal" for us, but it still made total sense in the storyline. Of course Sawyer would ask Kate to keep mum on his daughter -- and of course Kate would realize that telling Jack (of all people) would have been a betrayal that Sawyer could never forgive.

Posted by: laura33 | April 2, 2009 1:10 PM | Report abuse

How do we know that Bed DID NOT recognize Sayid when he was torturing him? No one stated for sure that he didn't. Only Ben would know the answer to that anyway...I think that if we take the tact that whatever happened, happened than Ben has to remember Sayid. Unless of course his descent into the temple may change the rules on that.

Posted by: authorofpoetry | April 2, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

In response to Johnny Zen. Yes, this may not be one of the best episodes, but everything is relevant. Even something we once thought to be unnecessary could come back to be the key to the show.

"1. Killer-to-the-core Sayid being unable to successfully off Lil Ben from ten paces was an extremely weak contrivance"

I think this is because the island won't let him die. The same reason that Locke lived when he was shot by Ben and why Michael wasn't allowed to die. The island isn't done with him.

"2. The big Sawyer-Kate helicopter whisper reveal was weak, and not just because it was widely predicted."

I agree, but Cassidy turned out to be a huge vehicle for Kate's self-realization.

"3. Again, it's a little ridiculous to set it up with Kate's super-dramtic "don't ever ask me" to Jack when the answer to Aaron's whereabouts is ... he's with his grandma."

I think her dramatic goodbyes and what she said to Jack was more based on the fact that she realized she wasn't an appropriate or fit mother. She thinks she's failing, and she doesn't cope well with failure.

"4. I found Kate's desperate desire to save Lil Ben unconvincing."

I got the feeling Kate's motivation was more as a rebellion against Jack, especially after his "You didn't like the old me" conversation. She probably has also developed more of a mothering instinct, though only to the point of not wanting to see a kid die....not as far as being a good mother.


For the question about Sawyer leaving the money for Clementine and Cassidy saying he never gave them anything....I seem to remember that Sawyer asked that his "donation" be confidential. I could be wrong, but it's ringing true to me.

Posted by: eet7e | April 2, 2009 1:12 PM | Report abuse

I meant to say 'ben.' Not 'bed.'

Posted by: authorofpoetry | April 2, 2009 1:13 PM | Report abuse

RE: Kate not telling Jack about Sawyer's request.
If Kate just simply told Jack that she was helping Sawyer by making sure his daughter was looked after, don't you think it would have come out that Kate told Cassidy the truth about the Oceanic Six and what happened on the island? Jack was the one who suggested, insisted they lie in the first place so I'm sure she could not explain to him how she was able to help Clementine without having to explain to Cassidy why she was there or how she knew Sawyer, seeing that he was not supposed to have survived the crash.
Also, she probably knew Jack would get upset if she mentioned Sawyer or was helping him. Anyway, that is just my take on the situation. I do agree that leaving Aaron with Mrs. Littleton was probably more dramatic, not just because she was saying goodbye to the little boy she'd cared for as her own for three years, but also because she did realize she kept him for selfish reasons and really was not fit to be his mother.
I'm not a huge fan of Kate but I also thought it was a nice surprise to see her acting unselfishly for a change.

Posted by: apfromal | April 2, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

I think the island destiny angle also compounds maintaining the time travel rules. Think back to Desmond's futile attempts to save Charlie. If it wasn't one way, the island would find another way to make it happen. If the island is insistent that Ben was going to join the Others, then did it matter what the Losties did or didn't do?

In other words, are the 1970s events happening because that's the way they happened, because the island is forcing events to get back in-line with what it wants to happen, or is it a combination of the two?

Sorry, for the headache.

Posted by: BATFRND | April 2, 2009 1:23 PM | Report abuse

Do we know that Sayid was trying to actually kill Ben or did he just use him to escape the sonic fence? Do we know that Ben didn't recognize Sayid in the Hatch, or did Ben recognize him and keep that to himself?

I agree that the line of the night was Jack telling Kate that she didn't like "the old me." But the look in Locke's eye at the end of the episode was pretty chilling.

Posted by: kenzoan13 | April 2, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

“…and it is possible that Desmond had just forgotten until the memory came to the surface in a dream. “

Well, we cannot know yet. However, we know it wasn’t a dream because Desmond said so (Desmond: “It wasn't a dream, Pen… It was a memory”). Add in the drama of the ‘memory’ scene (from “Because You Left”) and the fact that he suddenly recalled the one specific ‘memory’ that a time-traveler had ‘caused’… let’s just say it’s pretty unlikely that the writers had Desmond suddenly and coincidentally recall a forgotten memory (though the coincident-timeline explanation of the Faraday-hatch and Desmond-memory incidents means that the writers weakly resorted to ‘snaking’ time on, but not off, the island).

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 2, 2009 1:25 PM | Report abuse

As to whether Ben remembers the Losties or not, I think he has the capacity to (if he doesn't already). Remember that Charlotte only recognized/remembered Farraday after she started getting time-travel loopy. Maybe there has to be a specific event to trigger old memories.

And it can't be the same as Desmond's suddenly remembering Farrady right after he knocked on the hatch door in the past. Charlotte mentioned seeing Farrady (and then died) BEFORE Farrady saw her little girl version. So I'm not exactly sure what the writers meant by putting the Desmond/Farrady scenes one right after the other. Could be as Matt27 stated. Who knows... Either way, I think it would be a great addition to the story if Ben has remembered everything.

Question: When RA said "Ben won't remember any of this," did he mean 1) he won't remember any of you Losties, getting shot, etc. or 2) he won't know that you tried to save him and will only remember getting shot by Sayid.
He has to remember Juliet, because when she first came to the Island she was speaking to Goodwin's wife (the therapist) and she explained that Ben's obsession with Juliet was because "you look like her."

Posted by: snmvf2 | April 2, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

I think Ben does remember Sayid shooting him (but not the healing in the temple) and it is premised the previous episode when Ben shows up in Santo Domingo and (to paraphrase) Ben "[Sayid], you are capable of doing some bad things" AKA - shooting a 12 year old boy.

Now, Ben would remember this b/c it happened but he might no remember being saved by Sawyer and Kate taking him to Richard.

Posted by: SteelHop | April 2, 2009 1:42 PM | Report abuse

I didn't think they said "shouldn't we ask Charles and Ellie" I thought it was "charles and Keemey"...as in the commando that came back on the freighter...

Posted by: amybc291 |
--------
No, it was Charles and Ellie. Use Closed captioning, people!

Posted by: doobrah | April 2, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

I was really disappointed with Richard's almost matter-of-fact disclaimer to Kate and Sawyer that the retooled Ben would be an Other for Life (sans soul) and would conveniently forget that pesky shooting incident. If it's supposed to be true, it's a pretty cheezy plot device - Presto-chango! Ben emerges from the Temple as the Prince of Darkness ready to eliminate the Dharma Initiative and wrest control of the Others from Widmore. Another point. Did anyone else think that when Juliet told Kate that there was nothing that could be done to save Ben medically but that the Others might be able to save him that she seemed to say it with a knowledge that they could help rather than "what the heck, can't hurt"?

Posted by: wednesdayschild1 | April 2, 2009 1:49 PM | Report abuse

Jen wrote: "Speaking of Sayid, I guess he's hanging out with Vincent somewhere in hiding."

Are Vincent, Bernard and Rose also in 1977? I guess they are, along with the rest of the Lostees most of whom we do not know. So what have they been doing for 3 years? And Vincent is 3 years older since the plane crash. That's a lot of years in dog years. Hope he's doing well.

My flat screen TV decided to die last night. It won't power up and I had to watch Lost on an older TV. Oh the pain. But thanks to the internet (not to the manufacturer) I found there are defective capacitors in the TV that many people have successfully replaced themselves and one person wrote up a how-to guide. I'll be doing that this weekend. Who needs gods and time travel when the internet can solve anything!

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 2, 2009 1:52 PM | Report abuse

I agree with RebeccaHartong, last night's ep was very soap opera-ish. What redeemed it was Richard taking Ben to the Temple and the surprise on Ben's face when we woke up to find Locke staring at him. Kate and Sawyer rushing into to Otherland to save Ben was a bit much. What's gonna happen when they return to the Barracks? Surely someone spotted them breaching the Sonic Fence. And the "I did it for me" line didn't do if for me. Weak. I can't see Kate giving up Aaron that easily.

Posted by: CafeBeouf | April 2, 2009 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Regarding what Ben knows: When he's first introduced several seasons ago, he has files on the Losties. Is this because he knew them in the '70s or because he goes back and forth from the island?

Roger Linus: The first shot of him last night, he seemed to bear a resemblance to Desmond (mostly hairstyle). Are he and Kate going to get together and produce Desmond? (Although he looks older than 25 in 2006.)

If healing lil Ben causes Innocence Lost, does that happen to Locke when he's resurrected?

When the Losties crash on the island, the "others" are the hostiles plus Ben who moved in after lil Ben killed the DI in the gas attack. Perhaps no one is able to survive birth because they were contaminated by radiation leaking from Jughead.

My brain hurts. Hoping for more answers next week.

Posted by: doobrah | April 2, 2009 1:55 PM | Report abuse

Ok, so Richard said if he heals Ben "he'll be one of us for good", does that mean that anyone the island heals becomes an Other? Meaning Locke, Rose, maybe Jin (anyone else?) became Others basically the instant the plane crashed?

Not that I have any idea what that would mean...

Posted by: emfzlx | April 2, 2009 1:56 PM | Report abuse

1. I think Richard is wrong about Ben losing his memory, or being misinterpreted; looking back Ben clearly remembered knowing some of the 1977 gang in 2003/4. And don't forget, he told Sayid--I know better than anyone what you are capable of. And how could young Ben forget everything but still get back to Dharma-ville to drive in a van with his Dad, and gas everyone? Hmmmm. Maybe he could, now that I think about it.

2. Why is no one noticing: THAT IS NOT CLARE'S MOM. Clare's mom was played by a different actress. And she was last seen in a persistent vegetative state, as Christian begged Claire to take her off life support. Kate's good deeds always backfire--giving the baby to Clare's-fake-mom was a mistake.

3. Juliette 'n' Sawyer 4ever. You're seeing things if you think she was bummed Jack and Kate were engaged or he got misty-eyed when he saw Kate. Not.

Posted by: happy_looker | April 2, 2009 2:06 PM | Report abuse

what if when Ben woke up he now remembers being shot by Sayid and saved by Kate and Sawyer? sort of like how Desmond woke from the dream with the "new" Faraday memory? perhaps Ben realizes how terrible he has been and tries to rectify things?

Posted by: rbd4a | April 2, 2009 2:07 PM | Report abuse

Re: eet7e

All fair points. Although I took Juliet's comment to Kate about Lil Ben's condition ("medically he's dying" or something to that effect) to mean that we weren't seeing any Island voodoo in effect, i.e. his gunshot wound wasn't magically going all Wolverine like Locke's did.

Posted by: Johnny_Zen | April 2, 2009 2:11 PM | Report abuse

emfzlx, I agree with you totally. The writers WANT us to be confused about whether the characters can alter the future -- that was the entire point of this whole discussion. The writers aren't going to let this central secret just spill out of Miles' mouth -- it is THE central point of contention.

We all know that there is going to be an "incident" at the Swan station in another year (remember that Christian showed Sun the orientation picture for 1978, so we know the crisis is a year away). Now THAT is the real question -- can our heroes change the outcome of that "incident" to rescue the world?

Aaron is becoming more central to this show by the minute. Don't forget Locke's dream-warning to Claire in Season 1 -- "You gave him away -- now we all have to pay the price."

Posted by: jerkhoff | April 2, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

Just had a thought.

The plane trip back and events in 1977 had been prepared for by Ben for years. The airstrip built was just one part of Ben's preparations. And Ben used the excuse that they needed to go back to the island to save the Lostees left behind, but as Juliet pointed out they had been just fine for three years. So Ben had lied in order to get Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and Sun to come back. I think Ben also had Sayid killing Widmore's people in order to toughen up Sayid into the killer he needed him to be in 1977. He had the lawyer go after Kate to make her give up Aaron to grandma which made her a kinder person, one that would help a dying Ben. I'm thinking Ben remembered the Lostees were in his past, in another timeline, and they needed to come back in order to be in his past in this timeline, so he prepared everything, even the Lostees, which I think means he changed the rules and made what may have happened on another timeline happen on this timeline.

And Jack was onto something. What ever happened happened so why try to do anything? If Ben lives he will live with or without Jack's help. Jack has the right attitude, sit back and enjoy the ride because you can't do anything to change what has already happened (in the regular timeline). If everyone took Jack's attitude Ben would have died or lived in Dharmaville with a nicer father. Jack was not influenced by Ben as Kate and Sayid were, but he was influenced by his dad, who would appear to him now and then, and it was Locke who told Jack that his dad said Hi that got him to want to return. Jack was prepared by his dad, Kate and Sayid were prepared by Ben. Jack does the right thing, Sayid and Kate create bad-Ben. Maybe this is all about a timeline that does not exist until bad-Ben, using the island and Lostees, shifts the earth's timeline to be one where bad-Ben exists.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 2, 2009 2:18 PM | Report abuse

RA is taking Little Ben into the temple, like the members of Rousseau's team were taken into the temple. So, Ben will be changed the way that Rousseau's team was changed.

Posted by: Ghak | April 2, 2009 2:19 PM | Report abuse

I don't see any other posts about this, so let me share my anger with you...

Last week, Sayid shot Ben in the mid-left chest. Bullet hole is clearly visible.

Last night, Ben had a bloody hole in the upper-right chest.

Major production error or Island fixing things?

Re-watch the shooting if you don't believe me.

Other than that small(HUGE) miss-step, I thought the episode was excellent. It's the mid-point of the season, they've pulled us all the way to the top of the hill with the new questions, and next week we get to fly toward The Incident. Plus, Smokey v. Ben. Can't wait to see that one.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | April 2, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

"If only I knew *then* what I know *now* " oh yeah?
"be careful what you wish for!" that's my first comment.


Posted by: camis | April 2, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

NotForYou - I totally noticed that too. It was SO obvious, there better be a darn good explanation for it. Even if they have to cook up something after-the -fact like, oh, maybe Ben's heart got moved when he got shot which is why his heart is not in the right place for the rest of the show.

Posted by: camis | April 2, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, I definitely think the little clip we had of Rousseau's people will be important: they get sucked into the temple with the Smoke Monster and are changed (Jin saves Rousseau, though, right? And then Rousseau kills all of her changed friends?). Then, Rousseau's friends are compelled to kill Rousseau b/c she's not one of them? If the Smoke Monster is the island's protector and since going into the temple turns one into a "protector" (isnt Ben always trying to protect the island?), then the most base protector instinct is to fear outsiders? Thus, maybe Rousseau's team was being recruited by the island as a new set of "Others" and Jin mucked it all up...

Also, it's worth mentioning that a lot of people seemed to think Kate slept with Jack the night before the flight in order to be pregnant for the flight and take on Claire's role on the return trip...although if Kate decided to join the flight, not under duress from threats by Ben or Charles, but out of some new-found desire to track down Claire, then sleeping with Jack might not have had any ulterior motive other than, you know, comforting herself after giving away her kidnapped child to a strange woman in a motel...

Posted by: BilboB2 | April 2, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Two quick thoughts, sorry if they’ve been discussed before: I’ve always assumed that Ben as an adult remembered perfectly well everything that happened with him and the Oceanic Six as a young boy. When he meets the Oceanic Six again as an adult, he simply plays his cards close to his chest, subtly manipulating people based on the understanding of their personalities he gained as a child. But if Richard is about to brainwash him, perhaps that’s not the case. Also, it looked like he was having some intense dream before Locke woke him up. Perhaps he’s just now remembering.

Also, are we sure Locke, Ben, and the other survivors from Flight 316 are truly in the “present”? As I recall, it was night when the plane first hit turbulence and then suddenly it was the middle of the day when the plane crashed. If they are actually in the past (maybe not as far back as 1977, but say the late 1990s), it could explain Locke’s resurrection. He couldn’t be dead if he were still alive in the past—or something like that.

Posted by: kcp1 | April 2, 2009 2:59 PM | Report abuse

I think that the best part of reading the comments that follow Liz and Jen's blog is seeing how passionate the viewers are about this show. It's obvious that we "Lost" viewers are pretty fanatical. I get the feeling that I may be one of very few who likes not knowing what's going to happen next. I'm really enjoying the ride. And the site won't allow me to change my user ID now that the political season is over for a few minutes, but if I could, I'd be LostinTexas.

Posted by: texanforobamabiden | April 2, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

I am thinking that RA taking Lil Ben into the temple -- there was this unnatural-looking sunlight there -- but I get the sense that inside the temple there is some kind of regeneration process (Ancient Egyption Secret) that uses a technology or process that literally turns people into "other." What "other" means, who knows? But RA was willing to take Ben and make him other.

I'm curious about the whole notion of innocence. Richard Alpert seems to be a permanent fixture on the island, or at the very least, pretty damn old. And yet, he seems at a loss when new groups show up on the island, and seems willing to cede "leadership" to other people. Even though he also seems to be the guy who has knowledge of all the island's secrets. Ben, OTOH, well innocence isn't his problem.

Agree with the other poster who talked about how Kate couldn't tell Jack about Sawyer/Clementine/Cassady. Judging from last night's episode, she went to Cassady very soon after the O6 return to the real world. Later, when she and Jack play house, she can't reveal her activities on behalf of Sawyer because she would then have to tell Jack that she told someone else, Cassady, the truth rather than Jack's cover story.

Liked last night's show. I hope next week we see Ben and John as they formulate a plan to get back to the big island. I suspect they will have to work together to do that, and that we'll get to enjoy some cracking dialogue between them. I think John's eyes are finally open about Ben the manipulator. Amazing that it took being strangled before his (John's) blinders came off.

Posted by: NW_Washington | April 2, 2009 4:05 PM | Report abuse

I think there are various spiritual "world views" at work on the island, and what is most important is the way each character interprets what the "truth" is - which is being presented to them as a concept with multiple interpretaions.

Gotta do this again - If you look behind the tree where Oldham is about to constrain Sayid, you'll see Tibetan prayer flags waving in the wind. Not that a true Buddhist would torture people, but I'm just saying.

Role reversal (character changes) abound. Kate is all nice and generous all of a sudden, Sawyer is a responsible and in charge, Jack could care less, etc etc. Yeah, maybe everyone is up to something sneaky but I'm not so sure.

I go back to my original theory they they are all in a kind of Bardo, an intermediate state, suspended in time, where they have the chance to see the errors of their ways and get right. They won't all do it, but this is their chance.

Hurly is my current favorite - and here is his change - he no longer thinks he's crazy, he now KNOWS it's true that "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in [his previous] philosophy."

I think Oldham gave Sayid acid, LSD, given the sugar cube and the drops and the times. Sayid is tripping, man.

Posted by: camis | April 2, 2009 4:07 PM | Report abuse

NotForYou1, I was hoping Jen and Liz would bring that up in the chat (I asked a question). Lostpedia mentions it under bloopers and continuity errors, but that really just seems like an awfully important detail to be a mistake. But then again, I also can't imagine what it would mean if it's intentional. The island changed reality between the time Sayid ran off and Jin woke up?

Posted by: emfzlx | April 2, 2009 4:17 PM | Report abuse

I seemed to have missed a reference somewhere, perhaps to a character in some other show, but can someone explain the repeated references to Roger Linus as "Uncle Rico"? The actor isn't familiar to me so I just wonder where that's from.

Posted by: texanforobamabiden | April 2, 2009 4:21 PM | Report abuse

#1: Whatever happened, happened my friends. In 2002 there was yet another verson of HG Wells' story The Time Machine. This one, with Guy Pearce, was actually directed by Wells' great-grandson and so it comes by some credibility for how he handled the paradoxes of time travel. If you'll remember, Alexander spends four years building his machine and using it to prevent the circumstances of his fiance's death only to realize bitterly that if he prevents one means of Emma's death, another will always take its place. That is the premise I am going with when I watch LOST and it makes the most sense for me.

#2: "Henry Gale" knew everything about all of them already. He not only recognized Sayid, he knew it was pretty likely Sayid would torture him. That was the whole weirdness factor about him! When Ben was pretending to be Henry Gale, he already knew them all and already had files on most of them. That was why he was so creepy when he talked to them like he knew them... because he DID! He knew them, even if they didn't know him yet. And before he "escaped" them, he had learned everything left to know about them.

Stop letting the blog lore replace the actual events in the previous episodes! And it is NOT a donkey wheel!! Where is there a donkey down there?? It is not even big enough to strap a donkey to! It looks like the wheel of a ship, ok, right, that's fine. But just because you can turn a wheel doesn't mean there was ever a donkey attached to it. Start calling it a "polar bear wheel" if you must add a mammal to it. At least they had evidence of a polar bear having come out on the other side. Better yet, call it Dr. Halliwax's bunny wheel. Ggzzz.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 2, 2009 4:31 PM | Report abuse

Uncle Rico = Napolean Dynamite's uncle.

Not a huge fan of last night's episode or today's chat.

Hopefully next week will be up to my unusually high standards...

Posted by: distance88 | April 2, 2009 4:32 PM | Report abuse

I still don't understand why Ben has to be saved? That is, what is it about Ben that is so crucial to the Island?

It appears that, regardless of how you want to view "time travel", Ben would always be taken in by the Others.

So, what does Ben know as a child -- or think that he knows -- that drives him to so desperately join the Others? What is it about them that is so attractive? I don't think it's only to get away from his dad.

But, I think the only way we're going to learn that is by learning more about RA, Widmore, and Ellie.

It's easy to get sucked into the details of Lost, so much so, that we forget to think about the big picture. For me, that means figuring out why these two groups are even on the Island in the first place. It's still very unclear why this island is worth fighting over.

I also like the idea of the record on a turntable as a metaphor. If you tie this together with all the recording equipment in the various monitoring stations, it makes me think that what we see on the island is both something that already has been recorded (i.e. completed) but upon subsequent listens you always pick up something new. In essence, we perceive it as fresh with new each listen, but when the needle gets stuck we are reminded that it's only a recording, something that's already happened.


Posted by: lebowski | April 2, 2009 4:44 PM | Report abuse

a68comeback,

I stand corrected re calling it a donkey wheel. Thank you.


Posted by: camis | April 2, 2009 4:56 PM | Report abuse

camis: You are the only one and so you are the only recipient of my thanks. Can I count on you to start the trend referring to it as a "polar bear wheel" from now on? xoxo

Posted by: a68comeback | April 2, 2009 5:05 PM | Report abuse

you got it. if i slip up out of habit, just remind me.

xoxo right back atcha.

Posted by: camis | April 2, 2009 5:09 PM | Report abuse

Also, camis, you make a good point about what Sayid was given... that might have made him such a bad shot against a puny kid at 10 paces. If he was given LSD earlier that day, he was still feeling some of the mind-bending effects. Could have affected his aim, his judgement, how he felt about it, etc.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 2, 2009 5:26 PM | Report abuse

I suspect you and i have 1968 in common.

Posted by: camis | April 2, 2009 8:04 PM | Report abuse

Help Please - It was posted that Clair's mother was on life support. I seem to remember that. So is that womwn really Aaron Grandmother or not. I think this is important. Could someone explain this please

Posted by: crudeone | April 2, 2009 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Ellie? Isn't Mrs. Hawking's name Eloise? Hmm....

Posted by: thrh | April 2, 2009 10:35 PM | Report abuse

crudeone,
We only got a short look at Claire's mom after the accident that sent her into the coma. She was a mess and it could have been anyone. But the woman claiming to be the mom has Ben's lawyer, which is certainly suspicious. But if she isn't the mom then it would have to be one of Ben's people who may have set herself up as Claire's mom to take Aaron so Kate would willingly return to the island.

On the other hand we've seen sick family members get miraculous cures after their kids were on the island: Juliet's sister's cancer went away. Kate's mother was a terminal patient but did not die while Kate was on the island. So Claire's mom may have come out of her coma.

Right now I'm ready for this to fall either way.

Posted by: Fate1 | April 2, 2009 11:08 PM | Report abuse

I can't remember if Claire's mom was shown in the car with Claire before they wrecked, but the woman that has Aaron now is the same woman that came to Christian's funeral and told Jack about Claire. And said she was her mom.

If we want to get technical about things, it's the "Frozen Donkey Wheel." And that's just 'cause LindCuse called it that. And it's a better name than "wheel-in-a-wall." Well, maybe not.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | April 3, 2009 1:12 AM | Report abuse

"I can't remember if Claire's mom was shown in the car with Claire before they wrecked, but the woman that has Aaron now is the same woman that came to Christian's funeral and told Jack about Claire. And said she was her mom."
Posted by: NotForYou1

But she was the only family member of all the flight 815 victims to come to Christian's memorial, of course she had a child with Christian so that sort of makes some sense.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 3, 2009 8:31 AM | Report abuse

NW_Washington wrote: "I'm curious about the whole notion of innocence. Richard Alpert seems to be a permanent fixture on the island, or at the very least, pretty damn old. And yet, he seems at a loss when new groups show up on the island, and seems willing to cede "leadership" to other people. Even though he also seems to be the guy who has knowledge of all the island's secrets. Ben, OTOH, well innocence isn't his problem."

I have this theory that gods are involved on the island, the ancient Mediterranian type like Apollo, Ra, etc. (e.g., the statue). It may be that losing innocense means gaining the knowlege of their existence and their powers. Richard had no problem telling Locke he had to kill the American soldiers. It was an off-the-cuff remark, no remorse. If Richard is a god that makes sense. And once a person knows about the gods and their powers, maybe other people, civilization, and morality are irrelevant. Thus Ben cares less for the other people on the Ajira flight, or shooting Locke, or the Dharmites he gasses, since he knows there is something much more important to protect.

So what I think he learns in the temple is that humanity is not at all as important as the island and its gods and so is willing to do anything to protect it. That makes Ben a good guy but with the lost innocence of humanity. Hmm, I wonder if "Lost" refers to lost innocence and not lost on an island.

But I'm conflicted about Widmore. It seems Ben tosses Widmore off the island at some point. But while Ben is off-island and at war with Widmore, Ben uses Sayid to kill Widmore's people while Widmore has his people using tranquilizer darts. Is Widmore more humane even though he most likely has lost his innocence too? Are both Ben and Widmore good guys who use different methods and so are enemies?

The innocence issue also may explain what all the secrecy is about. Even Richard considered Ben's innocence to be a major step. The knowlege which takes away your innocence changes you. We saw it in Danielle's crew who presumably also lost their innocense once dragged into the temple. Even Danielle's fiance was ready to kill her, presumably to protect the island. Powerful mojo, and Ben's full of it.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 3, 2009 9:00 AM | Report abuse

OK, some points to those who are confused by the "single timeline theory" (including Jen and Liz):

- re: "course correction" This only is relevant when somebody knows the future (i.e. Desmond). I can't change an action about which I have no foreknowledge. If Jack thinks "I won't operate on Ben because that will cause him to die" he has ALWAYS refused to operate. Course correction came into play with Desmond because he could see the future.

re: the Barracks being "different" when Sun and Frank find it, which could mean that things changed - Sun and Frank were *not* at the Barracks. They were at the Processing Center. As seen in a previous episode, the Barracks are far inland. Sun and Frank got to the dock and almost immediately went into the Processing Center. There is no way this is at the Barracks. See http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Processing_Center

re: somebody (beside Desmond) suddenly having a "new" memory - Let's all repeat ... "Desmond is special. Desmond is special." Desmond is the only one that ever does this, and it has only been conclusively shown happening once.

re: because the conversation between Hurley and Miles ended with "Huh?" shows that time travel rules really aren't set - Are you kidding me? Did you watch the rest of the show? While the question stumped Miles, it was clearly answered in the episode when Richard said that Ben wouldn't remember "this."

A previous poster said "We’ll know the answer to this when the writers bother to tell us about how they see time travel." This entire episode *was* the producers telling us, over and over, that "what happened, happened".

Posted by: washpostemail | April 3, 2009 10:13 AM | Report abuse

I don't remember that much about 1968, Camis, and for good reason. But I can tell you that the last time I dropped, err ate, something that had been added to a sugar cube, I was not a reliable driver the next day. I was not even a reliable conversationalist the next day.

I'm just sayin' that Sayid probably was not sure he had shot the gun, or had shot a kid, or a giant penguin, before he staggered into the jungle. He's sitting on an enormous mushroom right now staring into the blossom of a hibiscus flower and talking to imaginary cartoon characters of swans, orchids, pearls, arrows and hydras. He might even be talking to Jacob right now. About salt water taffy. So let's just suspend our disbelief that Sayid didn't stop to put two bullets in young Ben's brain pan. Sayid is not himself right now.

That WAS Claire's Mum from the car accident. Same Mum. No Ben-foolery there.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 3, 2009 11:16 AM | Report abuse

washpostemail,

I agree with most of what you wrote but you are forgetting the numerous times Ben looked under a rock and found just what he needed at that time. Remember in the motel room with Jack where he opened a vent and pulled out a bag or briefcase, or when heading to the Orchid to confront Keamy he looks under a rock and pulls out a box with just what he needed? You are also forgetting the airstrip the Others built that just happened to be in the right place for the Ajira plane with Ben to land safely.

So Desmond is not the only special one that can see the future and prepare for it. The Others must have at least one person who can see the future, and Ben is a very good candidate. Tom may also have had that ability since the bomb Michael was carrying had the "Not Yet" message in it. But Tom was run over by Hurley's bus so maybe he did not have the ability.

Richard though seems to be unable to see the future, which I find very interesting. Richard is not an Other. He's something else.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 3, 2009 11:16 AM | Report abuse

washpostemail: You don’t seem to be watching Lost very closely! I did get a chuckle by the way you supported your definitive statement (“[t]here is no way this is at the Barracks”) by posting a link to an article recommended for deletion specifically because there was considerable doubt as to where the processing center was!!

First I doubt the writers will be naïve enough to deliver us a timeline whereby exactly “whatever happened, happened”. Why? Because we would have to discard, amongst other things, free will, science, and religion (i.e., the whole base of the show). Since time travel is pure fiction, the writers will undoubtedly be a little more adventurous than this in their fiction.

Second, the Lost producers have NOT clearly told us that “whatever happened, happened”. Your ill thought out (fictional) single timeline theory relies on the future and past, down to the atom, already being set. And nothing can change that. And yet, we have seen Desmond (twice) and Eloise being able to change the past, and Faraday change Desmond’s future (that’s three people). But I’ll be generous to you and allow you the possibility that the producers will tell us that Desmond had always ‘changed’ the past….

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 3, 2009 11:25 AM | Report abuse

Fate1 - Thanks, I forgot about the family members getting better while loveones were on the island. That would also make her more likly to believe Kate's island story. I also agree, I'm ready for it to go either way.

Posted by: crudeone | April 3, 2009 11:47 AM | Report abuse

bevjims1,

The single timeline theory does not preclude any of the items you mentioned. First of all, we have no idea that Ben finding the box under the rock or in the hotel room was based on foreknowledge of the future (WRT the hotel room, my take was that Ben placed the box there for safe keeping when he checked in and was simply removing it when he left)

Second, having foreknowledge of the future doesn't automatically equate with somebody else having Desmond's special ability, or the ability to change memories in the future. Obviously, somehow, somebody in the past finds out that Ajira 316 would crash in 2007 (we know that Sun has a "long journey" ahead of her in her quest to be reunited with Jin. It's possible she travels back and provides this foreknowledge). Therefore a landing strip needs to be built. But in the single timeline, that person ALWAYS finds out about this, and their action (or inaction) ALWAYS leads to the airstrip being built.

Posted by: washpostemail | April 3, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

everyone keeps talking about whether ben remembers sayid -- but no one wonders why the o6 don't rmember each other when they meet in 2004. would that not also be a logical question if the 1st one is?

Posted by: whymithinkinboutthis | April 3, 2009 12:34 PM | Report abuse

back before ships had diesel engines that operated windlasses that would hoist anchors up - they had animals on board..... donkeys actually... that would be attached to a wheel and they would walk around it... the donkey walking around the wheel would pull the anchor back up onto the ship... so, it probably is a donkey wheel....

its appropriate then, that turning the frozen donkey wheel, moves the island, because the islands anchor becomes free, allowing the island to 'move'

thats the story of the frozen donkey wheel... why its frozen, i can't answer that

the crewmember of the ship that attended to the donkey would be known as the donkeyman...

So, its very appropriate that turning the donkey wheel moves the island.... the wheel is hoisting the islands anchor up allowing it to 'move'

thats the explanation for donkey wheel.... why its frozen, I can't answer that

Posted by: tjkass | April 3, 2009 12:55 PM | Report abuse

tjkass,
Did you travel back in time a minute or two and type the same thing twice? ;-)

washpostemail,
We can disagree on the finding of convenient items in strange places, such as the box under the rock, but its happened so often I'm convinced Ben is sending his thoughts back in time and putting these things in places where he know's he'll need them later. Faraday has already shown via his rat experiments that what I call mind-travel is possible and Desmond has shown it can happen too. Desmond may very well be special. Ben probably is too. If Desmond ever gets his abilities under control he could be a threat to Ben, though Ben seems to care less about Desmond, which I find interesting. Although, Ben did get beaten up when it is presumed he went off to kill Penny. Out maneuvering Ben is a real feat, something Desmond could do if his abilities were in tune. Can't wait for that flashback.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 3, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

i think i'll just call it The Wheel from now on. 68 -?

Posted by: camis | April 3, 2009 1:36 PM | Report abuse

PatAbroad,

If you'd actually read the discussion on the Processing Center page, you'd see that only one person voted to delete the article, so your point is specious. So, you believe Sun and Frank paddled over to the island, arrived at the dock, then in a very short period of time, miraculously walked directly to the far-inland barracks, whose location neither of them new? Here's the Barracks:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x01-cities/1/twocitiescap-0089.jpg

"Because we would have to discard, amongst other things, free will, science, and religion (i.e., the whole base of the show)." No, we wouldn't have to do anything of the sort. Simply saying it does not make it true. Besides, claiming that the "whole base" of the show is science and religion really doesn't mean anything. They are making up the show to tell a story, not as a treatise to religion or science.

The whole "writers will undoubtedly be a little more adventurous than this" defense is based completely on supposition.

Of your "three" people who have "changed" the past, I see Desmond involved in all three instances. So, once again, Desmond is special.

So, again, just because you say something is "ill thought out" doesn't make it so. Please show me some non-"one timeline" evidence where somebody changed the future. By this, I mean where they show exactly what happened in the past, the outcome of this action, then re-showing the same event in the past when that person does something different, which changes the future. Now, the while the writers may show this in future episodes, it has not happened as of yet. Therefore, the is currently no evidence that anything but the "one-time" theory is true.

Posted by: washpostemail | April 3, 2009 1:52 PM | Report abuse

washpostemail: I’m being lighthearted in the following comments, so don’t be offended…

Did you hear the story about an Australian judge (Marcus Enfield) who, in trying to dig himself out of a small hole ($50 speeding ticket) ended up in a very large hole (2+ year jail sentence)? Let’s address your points…

If you had actually read the processing unit page like you said, you’d know that there is no consensus where the processing unit is, or any of the docks, in relation to the barracks. I say again; backing your definitive statement with a source that specifically debates the location is chuckle-worthy. Shame you didn’t change your statement to, “[it is rather unlikely that] this is at the Barracks”, because now you’ve dug yourself a little hole (NB, I don’t think it’s the barracks either, but that’s beside the point). Point 1 to me!!

Oh no, my goodness, I used ‘supposition’ to guess what the writers will write next! Perhaps next time I will use… no, wait, I was correct to suppose. I’ll call this “Point 2 to me” because (a) you’re being silly (come on, you know a single timeline make’s a boring storyline), and (b) it’ll make your blood boil a little more and you’ll dig your hole a little deeper (I really being lighthearted here).

Your support for a single timeline used Desmond as being the ONLY one to deviate from “what happened, happened”. I listed three people that I recall so far that have proven your single timeline statement incorrect, and my ‘supposition’ is we’ll soon learn of more (I even gave you a way to back out of this point). Oooh, it’s getting hard to see you down in your hole. I’ll take Point 3 then!

Of course you have to abandon freewill, science, and (at least the point of) religion. Freewill is gone since you cannot ‘choose’ anything. Absolutely nothing. Science is gone because the only rule—“whatever happened, happened”—overrides everything (I’m guessing you’ll understand that science, amongst other things, is used for predicting things that haven’t happened…). And religion, well, what’s the point of religion without free will? I’ll take Point 4 too if that’s OK with you?!

I’ll take Point 5 right up front. Of course Lost is about, and I quote myself, “AMONGST other things” “freewill, science, and religion”. What show have you been watching?!

Your last paragraph really turns your hole into a tunnel!! I comfortably disproved your one-timeline theory (the show’s pretty clear if you watch it carefully)—you even disproved it yourself by mentioning course correction AND Desmond—which, although you won’t admit it, makes your theory both ill thought out and false (but that’s OK, I have plenty of ill thought out and ultimately ‘false’ Lost theories). All you had to say in your post was, “broadly speaking, everything that happened, happened, though that’s not exactly a single timeline”.

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 3, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

tjkass: Thanks. Got it. (Locke is nowhere near the size of a donkey, but okay...) BTW, the show's creators also referred to Season 2 as "bagel" so cryptically picking "frozen donkey wheel" kind of doesn't instill me with faith in their ubiquitous terminology. But I'll give you this: yours was the absolute BEST explanation I have seen yet. If turning "the wheel" (thanks for the support camis) actually does raise the island's anchor and we eventually meet a "donkeyman" I will donate $100 to Turning Pointe Donkey Rescue. http://www.turningpointedonkeyrescue.com/sponsor.htm

(Is it me or do those donkeys look like they live in Dharma-inspired pens??)

Maybe that's why the Others are so angry all the time. They spent their careers aboard the Black Rock shoveling donkey poop?

Posted by: a68comeback | April 3, 2009 5:03 PM | Report abuse

Kate was just plain smoking hot. What a beautiful woman.

Posted by: sommer11 | April 3, 2009 5:05 PM | Report abuse

PatAbroad,

I learned a long time ago not to let an online discussion about a TV show "make my blood boil." I prefer to stick to logically discussing the facts shown during the show. The fact is everything shown onscreen supports the "what happened, happened" or "single timeline" theory. We could go back and forth, with me presenting facts and you ignoring them, throwing out strawmen, or presenting your opinions as facts, but that would grow tedious.

How about this. Keep posting to these "Dueling Analysis" after each show. We'll eventually see who is correct.

Posted by: washpostemail | April 3, 2009 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Here is a fact. Evangeline Lilly is still hot.

Posted by: sommer11 | April 3, 2009 6:00 PM | Report abuse

"Here is a fact. Evangeline Lilly is still hot."

*That* is an indisputable fact.

Posted by: washpostemail | April 3, 2009 6:49 PM | Report abuse

"everyone keeps talking about whether ben remembers sayid -- but no one wonders why the o6 don't rmember each other when they meet in 2004. would that not also be a logical question if the 1st one is?"

Posted by: whymithinkinboutthis | April 3, 2009 12:34 PM |

Hey Whymi,

I think you have it backwards. When the plan crashed in 2004, that was genuinely the first time the O6 and other Losties met. In 1977, they have their 2004 knowledge of each other and also are hmmm, living a lie that would be impossible to explain to most people (huh, just like the O6 did off-island). I can't really explain the larger implications of what this means or why, but I'm sort of going by what Miles said, that the sequence of events in the lives of the Losties was their pre-island pasts, their initial island existence after the crash (2004 future), the off-island lives of the O6 (2004-2007) and concurrent lives of the Losties remaining on the island (1974-1977), and their present is their 1977 lives, which is weird but I take to mean it is the first time they are experiencing it. How this all will be accounted for is a brain-hurting mystery to me.

Posted by: Kellygirl | April 3, 2009 6:55 PM | Report abuse

“I prefer to stick to logically discussing the facts shown during the show. The fact is everything shown onscreen supports the "what happened, happened" or "single timeline" theory.”

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the facts are clear already and we don’t need to wait. The timeline is NOT exactly “what happened, happened” (like you think) because we have THREE exceptions to that theory already (Faraday at the Swan, Eloise and the engagement ring, and “The Constant”). Three. It doesn’t matter if you think only Desmond is special (he’s not, at least Eloise is special too remember). Add in Eloise’s ‘unpredictable’ statement and that’s FOUR (i.e., timeline is, according to you, perfectly predictable because it’s already happened).

So, apart from these FOUR exceptions (FOUR facts you conveniently ignore, huh!), you’re still sticking to your theory? You still try to pretend ONLY your facts are correct? Come on, is it really so difficult to say (online no less!) that your timeline theory should be “mostly what happened, happened”? Serisouly!

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 3, 2009 7:27 PM | Report abuse

Remember how Ben had a special childhood girlfriend and she made those two wooden dolls for his birthday? Even as an adult he cherished those two dolls. He remembered this girl. I think he remembers everything given this point. We never saw how he went over to the "other side" and now we know how it happened.

I think.

Posted by: profwormwood | April 3, 2009 7:51 PM | Report abuse

PatAbroad,

1- Faraday at the Swan - He was using the fact that the Desmond was special (gosh, he even says so in the episode) so Desmond would have a memory. Without Desmond's "special-ness" this doesn't happen. So this is a Desmond incident.

2- Eloise and the engagment ring - This was during one of Desmonds' flashes directly after turning the failsafe. It was Desmond that "chooses" to take or not take the ring. So once again, a Desmond incident.**

3- The Constant- Entirely concerning Desmond, so obviously a Desmond incident.

4- Eloise's "unpredictable" statement - How exactly does this prove anything about changing the past? It doesn't. The people and manner of how they got on Ajira 316 is exactly how it has ALWAYS happened. This re-inforces the single timeline theory.

So you are really 0 for 4


** Interestingly enough, in this episode, Eloise says the following to Desmond:

"You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to."

What was that you were saying about free will?

Posted by: washpostemail | April 3, 2009 10:17 PM | Report abuse

I'm starting to like you washpostemail. I don't think you're right, but I can't really find where you are wrong, yet.

And sommer11, Evangeline Lilly is only hot after she cleans herself up like when she was states-side. Maybe its the freckles, I'm not sure, but the grungy jungle Kate is just, mmmm, well its like the beer jokes. A sweaty beer is better than a sweaty Evangeline. Even Dharma beer.

And there had better be a good explanation for lil'Ben being shot in the left chest by Sayid then having Juliet try to repair a gunshot to the lower right abdomen. I can't imagine the production crew made such a mistake. Something weird happened that needs to be explained. If not I'll assume Lost has taken a major turn as happened with 'Lost in Space'.

For those too young (<40) to remember, 'Lost in Space' was heavily advertised before its first showing as a pretty cool sci-fi. The first episode, that lasted 2 hours if I remember right, was amazing. The scene where they realize the planet they are stranded on has an elliptical orbit and thus has a close pass by the sun was accurate and very cool. Then we were hooked and the new production crew moved in and it became the lamest show on TV. Star Trek moved in and blew Lost in Space off TV. I'm starting to worry that Lost has a new production crew to make money off a hooked audience. Say it ain't so.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 3, 2009 11:26 PM | Report abuse

There were two things I got from the Lost episode and the time travel stuff.
1. The age old question of time travel is would you travel back in time to kill Hitler. Here the Losties get a chance to answer that question with Ben. They know what Ben will do. Juliet, Sawyer and Kate go one way seeing only the child at that moment in time. Jack maybe sees the whole picture and his future actions. I also wonder is Jack is a little curious about what will happen if Ben dies.
2. I kept waiting for Faraday or someone to reference Dr. Who with a "Time is not a straight line but a big gooey, wobbly ball of timey wimey stuff."

Posted by: raperceful | April 4, 2009 3:53 AM | Report abuse

1) I didn’t get a chance to read this forum until today (Saturday). I really enjoyed the number of new writers (at least new to my memory). I enjoy and learn from the postings by familiar names (e.g., L8yF8, bevjims1, camis, a68comeback, PJSully, et al.), but I really enjoyed hearing the new “voices,” too, especially the back and forth between whymithinkinboutthis and Kellygirl about why the O6 didn’t recognize each other after the Oceanic crash in 2004 considering they met in 1977.

2) When I viewed the episode, I saw the irony and foreshadowing of the Patsy Cline tune Kate listens to in her first flashback, and I thought I was going to be able to “break” the news about the use of “[I’ve Got Your Picture,] She’s Got You,” but Liz beat me to it. Liz noted that this song is appropriate b/c Kate only has Aaron’s picture while another woman (Claire’s mother) has Aaron. But I see the song as appropriate in two other ways, too. First, Kate currently only has Sawyer’s (mental) picture b/c Juliet now has him. Second, Kate only has a “picture” of Jack and no longer has him. When Kate says she doesn’t like the new Jack, he reminds her she didn’t like the old Jack, either. Ouch!

3) I’d like to nominate a “line of the week.” When Kate tells Cassidy about losing Aaron in the grocery store, Kate says, “All I could think is it’s about time.” What a great line for “Lost,” in general, and especially for this episode about time. Some posters to this forum sounded disappointed that LindeCuse didn’t reveal more about how time is supposed to work (and not work) in this episode, but remember: LindeCuse are trying to string us along not just until THIS May but until NEXT May.

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 4, 2009 10:28 AM | Report abuse

bevjims1,

I don't if I'll be right (ultimately) either. Nobody does (besides the writers). But based on the evidence we've seen so far, everything points to the one timeline theory.

Posted by: washpostemail | April 4, 2009 10:34 AM | Report abuse

TIMELINE 1
Below is a timeline I put together. Hope it helps as we try to keep track of when we are as well as where we are. The one thing I couldn’t put in the timeline is The Incident. Even _Lostpedia_ could only offer that it apparently occurred before 1980.

TIMELINE
1845-1881 – The Black Rock is grounded on the island. Magnus Hanso possibly captained the ship on its final voyage.
1954 - Jughead period. Widmore (wearing GI fatigues w/ a “Jones” nametag), Alpert & the Others reportedly killed 18 U.S. Army soldiers stationed on the island for nuclear testing & took over the soldiers’ camp. Locke gives a compass to Alpert & tells Alpert to visit Locke on Locke’s birthday, 30 May 1956.
1956 – John Locke born on 30 May. Alpert seen at hospital.
1961 – Alpert visits a five-year-old Locke & shows Locke several items, including a knife & a compass. Locke chooses the knife, not the compass. Alpert, irritated, leaves.
1965 – Ben Linus born on 19 Dec. & his mother dies from labor.
1971 – Locke’s h.s. science teacher tells Locke a Dr. Alpert from Mittelos Labs has offered Locke a chance to attend a science camp. Locke declines.
1973 – An eight-year-old Ben comes to the island with his father, Roger, a Dharma recruit.

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 4, 2009 2:54 PM | Report abuse

TIMELINE, Part 2

1974 – In “LeFleur” Juliet & Sawyer find Amy held at gunpoint by the Others/Hostiles & her husband Paul killed. Sawyer & Juliet kill the Others/Hostiles & rescue Amy. Sawyer meets w/ Alpert, admits to the killing, tells Alpert he is from the future, & assures Alpert the truce has not been broken by Dharma. Goodspeed allows Sawyer & Juliet to remain w/ Dharma for “two weeks.”
1974-77 – Sawyer (under the pseudonym LeFleur), Juliet, & Jin work for Dharma. During construction of The Orchid, workers discover an underground chamber (containing a wheel) that Pierre Chang warns them not to open. Faraday observes the excavation (“B/c You Left”). Faraday sees a redheaded girl, presumably Charlotte Lewis, in the Dharma compound. Faraday leaves the Dharma Initiative under unknown circumstances (“Namaste”). In 1977 Amy, now the wife of Horace Goodspeed, gives birth to a boy (named Ethan) with assistance from Juliet.
1977 Day 1 (see also Jan. 2008 Day 1) – Hurley, Kate & Jack land on island & are reunited w/ Jin & Sawyer. Jin finds Sayid (& so does Radzinksky). Sayid jailed. A 12-year-old Ben offers Sayid a sandwich in jail.
1977 Day 2 (see also Jan. 2008 Day 2) – Sayid is interrogated by Oldham. Young Ben continues to feed Sayid in jail (drawing his father’s wrath). Flaming van speeds thru Barracks. Young Ben helps Sayid escape from jail. In jungle Sayid shoots young Ben in the chest.
Nov. 1988 – A pregnant Rousseau & her team find Jin floating in ocean off the island. Jin takes Rousseau’s team to the radio tower. On the way, the smoke monster drags Mont& into a cave. Jin stops Rousseau from entering cave.
Jan. 1989 – Jin arrives on beach to find two corpses of Rousseau’s team & sees her shoot Robert.
19 Dec. 1992 – the Purge (Ben Linus’ 27th birthday). The Others use gas from the Tempest station to wipe-out most of the Dharma Initiative (although some appear to have survived & joined w/ the Others/Hostiles).
2001-2002 – While time shifting, Locke sees Yemi’s Beechcraft pass over him & crash into the jungle. Faraday tells Desmond that the latter is special & the rules don't apply to Des. He then tells Des that if he ever gets off the island, go to Oxford & find Faraday’s mother. A time flash occurs before Faraday can tell Desmond the name of his mother.


Posted by: MrMerkin | April 4, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

TIMELINE, Pt. 3

22 Sept. 2004 – Oceanic 815 crashes onto island.
Nov. 2004 – While flashing thru time, Sawyer sees Kate delivering Claire’s baby in the jungle.
30 Dec. 2004 – Ben turns wheel that moves the island & transports Ben to Tunisia.
31 Dec. 2004 - A lifeboat containing the O6 is found by the Searcher. Jack tells the O6 they must lie in order to protect everyone else on the island. Desmond is reunited with Penny, & Jack tells Penny they need to talk.
circa 2005 - Alpert finds Locke, who was shot in the leg by Ethan as Locke climbed to Yemi’s Beechcraft. Alpert removes bullet from Locke’s wound & gives Locke a compass that he says Locke must return in another time. Alpert tells Locke that the people on the helicopter (the O6) are already back home, an indication that this encounter takes place post-helicopter crash. Alpert also tells Locke that the only way to save the Island is to get the O6 back & that Locke will have to die to do that.
Jan. 2008 Day 1 (see also 1977 Day 1) – Ajira Flight 316 crash-lands on a makeshift runway on Hydra island. Ben heads into jungle, followed by Sun & Lapidus. Sun whacks Ben w/ oar & takes an outrigger w/ Lapidus to the main island & meets w/ Christian Shepherd at the Processing Center & Christian shows them a picture of the 1977 Dharma new recruits.
Jan. 2008 Day 2 (see also 1977 Day 2) – Locke comes upon Caesar & Ilana looking thru maps in Hydra station. Caesar shows Locke a group of injured passengers, including Ben.
*These dates are adapted from timelines & information contained on the website _Lostpedia_ .

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 4, 2009 2:56 PM | Report abuse

68,

Whoah! Nice description!! (not that I ever..) PLUS you might just have solved the entire mystery of the show: It's all just one big magical mystery tour.

And, when you think about it, Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?

Perhaps all we can know in a given moment is that Time has come today. And maybe that's enough.

(I'm taking a break from the time-line discussion)

I've been wondering about Juliet's suggestion that they get Lil Ben to The Others. Medical reasons aside:

Juliet has revealed that she IS one of The Others (that's why she speaks Latin). So, does she have a "secret" affiliation with The Others at this point in the story? Is that one reason she sends Ben to them?

Sawyer may be connected with them too.
He has to be Anti-Others when he's with the Dharma People, but he's on his own when he finds Kate at the gate, and he's quick to help her get Ben to The Others.

And on the topic of secrets in general, I don't believe Kate could become so wonderful so suddenly. Something's up.


Posted by: camis | April 4, 2009 3:17 PM | Report abuse

MrMerkin - THANKS !!!

Posted by: camis | April 4, 2009 3:24 PM | Report abuse

Camis -
The Beatles, Chicago, and the Chambers Bros. Do I win the music trivia quiz?

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 4, 2009 3:30 PM | Report abuse

MrMerkin,

You totally win!! Welcome to the sub-group!

Time, Time, Time, see what's become of me.


Posted by: camis | April 4, 2009 4:54 PM | Report abuse

Once free will stops, once you stop trying, things happen. Events occur off the time line or a new one is created. Think the Swan station and the constant need to type numbers. Once you stop trying it implodes. Jack it seems has stopped trying, he has given up - things may happen when they shouldn't have.

Posted by: nier | April 4, 2009 7:07 PM | Report abuse

"I don't if I'll be right (ultimately) either. Nobody does (besides the writers). But based on the evidence we've seen so far, everything points to the one timeline theory.
Posted by: washpostemail"

Just remember that Widmore changed the rules and its looking like Ben has recently changed the rules, whatever the rules are, but I'll bet they break the one-timeline theory.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 4, 2009 9:37 PM | Report abuse

Time, Time, Time, see what's become of me.
Posted by: camis

...while I look around for my possibility,
I was so hard to please
So look around, leaves are brown now,
and the sky is a hazy shade of winter!

By Simon & Garfunkel, 1966 in the album, Bookends, the first album I ever bought with a week's worth of lawn-mowing money.

Here are three. Good luck:

No time left for you
On my way to better things

Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way.

It's the time of the season
When the love runs high

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 4, 2009 9:59 PM | Report abuse

And sommer11, Evangeline Lilly is only hot after she cleans herself up like when she was states-side. Maybe its the freckles, I'm not sure, but the grungy jungle Kate is just, mmmm, well its like the beer jokes. A sweaty beer is better than a sweaty Evangeline. Even Dharma beer.

Well then we will have no arguements on the island. You can have the sweaty beer and I'll take sweaty Evangeline, freckles and all 7 nights a week!

Posted by: sommer11 | April 4, 2009 10:53 PM | Report abuse

1. The Guess Who

2. don't know

3, The Zombies.


Posted by: camis | April 5, 2009 2:00 AM | Report abuse

google: Pink Floyd. Slightly after my formative rock years.
google answers shouldn't count, but i changed the rules.

re time: I hope there's an episode called "Then's Our Now"

I'm still wondering how Juliet and The Others. Ideas?


Posted by: camis | April 5, 2009 2:25 AM | Report abuse

I didn't have a chance to read all the comments so this might have already been addressed but...

Isn't it possible that Ben did recognize Sayid later in life, and just chose not to let anyone know? I think that Ben didn't hold a grudge against Sayid because he realized that because Sayid shot him, he became what he did. And Ben knew that Sayid was a killer because Sayid tried to kill him as a kid. That's why Ben hired Sayid later in life as an assassin, because Ben already knew Sayid was a killer

Posted by: guhoya115 | April 5, 2009 2:50 AM | Report abuse

In three consecutive postings MrMerkin compiles a very useful tabulation of all events on the island as we have come to know them. I would like to comment on one of the items on the first part of the timeline. It refers to Richard Alpert's visit in the early 60's to Locke's foster parents household. In the timeline (as well as in many other discussions) it is remarked that Locke makes the wrong choice by picking up a knife instead of a compass. I haven't seen the episode recently, but I believe that such statement is incorrect. Richard Alpert presents young Locke with a number of items: a knife, a compass, a glass container with seemingly sand inside, a book, a baseball globe, and a comic magazine. I would like to emphatically point out that Locke does chose the compass (together with the glass container with sand, I think also the comic magazine). When Locke seemingly "fails", at least from Richard's viewpoint, is when he chooses the knife over the book, and the baseball glove.

At the time the episode was shown the book was identified as something like "The Book of Laws", and I remember there was some discussion about the contents; sadly I don't remember much about it. However, "the book of laws" is mentioned explicitly by Mr. Eko in the episode where he gives Locke the book found by Ana Lucia's group in the Dharma station on their side of the island; The book, which Mr. Eko tells Locke that he would know it as The Old Testament, is hollow inside, and contains the section of the instruction movie in The Swan that Radzinski had cut off (as Kelvin told Desmond).

And come to think of it, the glass container with sand inside was always interpreted as being sand from the island. But hourglasses, that measure time, have sand inside also. Given the Egyptian context suggested a number of times in the show, shouldn't we be seeing a sun clock at some point?

Posted by: for33 | April 5, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

A number of posters raise the question of whether Ben remembers being shot by Sahyid as well as the "Losties" that have integrated into the Dharma group. I don't know about Ben, but it seems to me that Richard Alpert will remember Sawyer, Kate, as well as Faraday, Locke, and Miles, to say the least.

Posted by: for33 | April 5, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

TIMELINE 1 (revised)
Below is a timeline I put together. Hope it helps as we try to keep track of when we are as well as where we are. The one thing I couldn’t put in the timeline is The Incident. Even _Lostpedia_ could only offer that it apparently occurred before 1980.

TIMELINE
1845-1881 – The Black Rock is grounded on the island. Magnus Hanso possibly captained the ship on its final voyage.
1954 - Jughead period. Widmore (wearing GI fatigues w/ a “Jones” nametag), Alpert & the Others reportedly killed 18 U.S. Army soldiers stationed on the island for nuclear testing & took over the soldiers’ camp. Locke gives a compass to Alpert & tells Alpert to visit Locke on Locke’s birthday, 30 May 1956.
1956 – John Locke born on 30 May. Alpert seen at hospital.
1961 – Alpert visits a five-year-old Locke & shows Locke several items. One of the objects Locke chooses is a knife, which appears to irritate Alpert, and he leaves Locke.
1965 – Ben Linus born on 19 Dec. & his mother dies from labor.
1971 – Locke’s h.s. science teacher tells Locke a Dr. Alpert from Mittelos Labs has offered Locke a chance to attend a science camp. Locke declines.
1973 – An eight-year-old Ben comes to the island with his father, Roger, a Dharma recruit.


Posted by: MrMerkin | April 5, 2009 12:25 PM | Report abuse

clarification:

I'm not wondering HOW Juliet and The Others

I'm wondering ABOUT Juliet and The Others.


Posted by: camis | April 5, 2009 1:40 PM | Report abuse


camis,
How could you not know about Pink Floyd's album "Dark Side of the Moon" and the song "Time"? One of the greatest albums and songs in rock history. You would not have survived well in the 70s. Betya you think "Jethro Tull" was a rock star.

"camis wrote: "I'm wondering ABOUT Juliet and The Others."

Yea, me too. She knows a lot but doesn't say much. She knew about the Latin Widmore was speaking and also knows that Richard is very old. She also seems very comfortable wherever she is. I've always thought it was a quiet confidence, but now I'm starting to think the Lostees first impressions were right, she is a spy and working for the Others. And she was the one who came up with the idea of sending Ben to the Others to save his life. I'm thinking she is working for the Others, reluctantly, and must keep Ben alive, maybe to keep her sister well, and when Jack refused to operate on Ben she thought of the only other possibility, and its ramifications, the evil Ben. That would explain her anger toward Jack who could have saved him and kept him from the Others.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 5, 2009 11:02 PM | Report abuse

"camis,
How could you not know about Pink Floyd's album "Dark Side of the Moon" and the song "Time"? One of the greatest albums and songs in rock history. You would not have survived well in the 70s. Betya you think "Jethro Tull" was a rock star. - Bejims1"

Hey! Ouch! The slings and arrows! Jethro Tull was a band, featuring the guy Ian something on the flute. The band also had a guy who played mandocello, which my brother plays. I saw them on the Sunset Strip, although most of my time was spent in Berkeley in the late 60's, early 70's.

Pink Floyd was off our radar - what can I say - I knew their work, saw the film but just wasn't into them. More into Janis Joplin, Hendrix, The Dead, Led Zepplin, The Beatles, Ritchie Haven, Taj Mahal, Buffalo Springfield, Chambers Brothers, The Band, Cream, The Who, Blood Sweat And Tears (when Eric Clapton was lead singer)...

etc etc.

Berkeley, San Francisco, The Filmore, The Avalon. Pink Floyd just didn't click with me - nothing personal !

ANYWAY I keep trying to get back to Lost here. Yes, Juliet SAID she was "An Other" and I think she is secretly allied them at this stage in the story. It will play out...


Posted by: camis | April 5, 2009 11:47 PM | Report abuse

Camis-
If you remember Eric Clapton as being the lead singer of Blood, Sweat & Tears, that's proof to me you were in SF, Berkeley, & The Haight in the '60s (and that you know exactly what was in those sugar cubes Oldham used on Sayid)!!!!
:)

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 6, 2009 1:07 AM | Report abuse

thanks MrMerkin,

So, if you know what it means that I know....

do I know you ?

Posted by: camis | April 6, 2009 1:13 AM | Report abuse

MrMerkin,

Wait. I think I'm wrong about Eric Clapton. Was THAT your point? If my memory of the sixties is faulty, that is proof that I was there? Oh no, I'm so confused. Never did those sugar cubes, but I'm still confused. Help!

Posted by: camis | April 6, 2009 1:58 AM | Report abuse

With regards to Juliet: From all her past history, I find it unlikely that she's working with Ben. Instead it seems more plausible that she's working on Widmore's side or, perhaps, on Richard Alpert's side.

On Widmore's side: She was off the island in the 90's (at least in the first time iteration that we know) and I think it is likely that Widmore knew that Ben would try to recruit her. So somehow Widmore recruited her first, and Juliet became Widmore's "very long term agent" on Ben's "others". We don't know that Ben's "others" speak latin; only the older and "ragged" others seem likely to do so (to me, of course). Widmore's "others" and Juliet know latin. And Naomi seemed to be capable of knowing latin too (as well as Mikhail, oh well?). Both Widmore and Ellie saw Juliet in 1954, so they would remember her, especially given that Ellie learned that Juliet came 50 years from the future. I still don't understand the episode on season 4, when Juliet tries to stop Daniel and Charlotte from neutralizing the poison gas in The tempest. There I thought that both Daniel and Charlotte knew Juliet (or her role in the big scheme of things). All the other disagreements between Juliet and Daniel/Charlotte/Miles were always in front of witnesses, Jack particularly.

On Alpert's side: It is also conceivable that Richard Alpert would have tried to turn Juliet to his side, and slowly but progressively against Ben. We know that Richard helped Locke against Ben, by pointing out that Sawyer could help killing Anthony Cooper. So Richard clearly has his own agenda, and doesn't lack diplomatic skills.

Still another possibility, though less likely, is that secretly Richard is still in contact with Charles Widmore. When recruiting Juliet, Richard was with Ethan, who in that episode appears to be spying Juliet in Florida. Again, it is not clear what we know about Ethan, but one of the possibilities is that he is also ageless like Richard (remember that apparently we saw him shooting Locke at the time, early 90's, of Yemi's plane crash, looking exactly the same as in 2000 and in 2004). If Ethan is Amy's baby and loyal to Ben, both Richard and Juliet could have been "acting" in front of Ethan at the time of the recruiting.

For what is worth I currently think that Juliet has been always on "surviving mode", though she clearly cares about the safety of other people, and unlike Jack, self-doubt does not compromise what she considers "civilized grown-up behavior". Of course I could be wrong.

Posted by: for33 | April 6, 2009 7:48 AM | Report abuse

After my previous post of Juliet above, I'd like to say that I can't escape from the impression that both Juliet's and Jack's were not consistently well characterized roles in season 4, while on the island. They are both trained in science. However both never seem interested (they never asked questions) on what Daniel had to say, however outlandish, about time on the island (the experiment of sending a load from the ship)/time-travel (Desmond-Faraday conversation in The Constant), etc. Even if it goes over their heads, scientists would be asking questions, and not just treat Daniel as hopelessly affected with the "mad scientist" syndrome. Later in season 5 Sawyer, Miles and Juliet, though more insensitively at times, treated Daniel with more respect. At least they asked questions.
They behaved as grown-ups!

Posted by: for33 | April 6, 2009 7:50 AM | Report abuse

Camis wrote:
"MrMerkin,
Wait. I think I'm wrong about Eric Clapton. Was THAT your point? If my memory of the sixties is faulty, that is proof that I was there?"

Yes, that was my point, Camis. Eric Clapton was never in BS&T. Al Kooper (not to be confused w/ Alice Cooper) was the singer for BS&T before he got booted from the band, and David Clayton-Thomas is the singer for BS&T's Top 40 hits like "Spinning Wheel" and "When I Die." I was just good-naturedly poking a little fun at your expense and sure hope you took it that way. In addition, I am indeed playing on that Robin Williams line that if you remember the '60s, you probably weren't there.

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 6, 2009 7:59 AM | Report abuse

Hi washpostemail: I figured you’d keep on digging! Here’s my jovial response.

1 - Desmond and Eloise are indeed special. Special because they can, at least temporarily, change the future (or past)—correct? But you are arguing for a single and unchangeable timeline. We now know of two people that can, albeit slightly and temporarily, CHANGE the timeline. Therefore, your theory is wrong (unless, as I gave you the way out before, Desmond and Eloise always ‘changed’ the timeline). So stop bleating about ‘specialness’ and simply rename your theory: BROADLY “whatever happened, happened”.

To continue though. Faraday helped Desmond ‘change’ the future (my guess is we will learn that, broadly, he always ‘changed’ the future). But evidence right now says that a non-special person was involved in changing the timeline, correct?

2 – Same as above. Desmond is special, so special in fact that he has singlehandedly demonstrated the falsehood of your theory once again. Your theory has an exception! Even if that exception is JUST Desmond and Eloise, your theory is still wrong!!

3 – Are your really saying your theory is right as long as we ignore any incident that proves it incorrect? Seriously?

4 – Sorry, I thought this was obvious. Elosie can see the future (we’ve seen that). And you’re saying that you would like the future to be fixed and unchangeable. Therefore the events can NOT be UNpredictable for Eloise (unless she was telling Jack(?) what he needed/was supposed to hear). Is that a little clearer?

OK, 4 to 0 for me. Again, just change add the word ‘broadly’ to your theory and you’d be correct (and out of your hole too).

Yes, freewill. Desmond freely chose to buy the engagement ring in the flashback and so Eloise pointed out what he was supposed to do to BROADLY maintain his destiny/timeline. This is when we learned about course correction. How can one have course correction in a fixed and unchangeable timeline – there’s nothing to EVER correct, right?

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 6, 2009 10:38 AM | Report abuse

Honestly, I cannot leave you guys alone for a weekend. You actually put yourselves into your own time warp? Music is a powerful tool -- it should not be combined with other psychotropic drugs. I'll date myself here and say that I used to "buy a book" from time to time from this guy who lived above Cody's Bookstore in Berkeley. He was the ONLY person in Northern California of my aquaintance that listened to Pink Floyd. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing (certainly he was a weird thing), but I am with camis on the LOST top-40 playlist.

Also writing to look for the Sullys this week! PQ and hubby (louie louie louie), we need your voice of wisdom! Side with me here and remind everyone that Ben Linus, as Henry Gale, DID recognize Sayid and the others. That was part of his creep-factor... Riiiight???

We'll find out much more in t-minus 55 hours and counting. Ben must summon the smoke monster in order to atone?? Start preparing for your nose bleed right now. I'm just sayin'.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 6, 2009 12:28 PM | Report abuse

"Also writing to look for the Sullys this week! PQ and hubby (louie louie louie), we need your voice of wisdom! Side with me here and remind everyone that Ben Linus, as Henry Gale, DID recognize Sayid and the others. That was part of his creep-factor... Riiiight???"
Posted by: a68comeback

Hi! And I agree that, unless whatever Richard does to save Ben wipes his memory clean of the last few days, Ben MUST recognize the Losties in 2004. In fact, this would finally explain why Ben immediately sends minions to make a list of any new island arrivals (which never made sense to me): he's waiting for them to arrive and wants to know as soon as they get there!

I also agree with washpostemail that the writers are telling us that whatever happened, happened, and that the Losties are not changing history (this "single timeline" theory allows for those tiny variations that are course-corrected, and yes, I know that technically means there are slightly different timelines, but I think we are meant to think of this being a single timeline that is basically unchanged). So far, I don't see anyone's knowledge of future events being inconsistent with this.

HOWEVER, there ARE hints that, while this is how time does work normally, that something unexpected may have affected things--Widmore's "changing the rules," Desmond being "special." How, why, or by whom is up for grabs at this point.

Posted by: PQSully | April 6, 2009 1:42 PM | Report abuse

"Also writing to look for the Sullys this week! PQ and hubby (louie louie louie), we need your voice of wisdom!"
Posted by: a68comeback

Aw, shucks! We may not be as vocal the next few weeks: we just adopted a puppy this weekend! No, we didn't name him Vincent, but he is as entertaining and frustrating as anything to be found on Lost. But much fuzzier. And snuggly.

Posted by: PQSully | April 6, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

I wish we could submit drawings here. A lot of people seem confused about why, when the Losties are on the island in 1977, they don't remember each other in 2004. I think of it this way:

Each location on Earth (for instance, the island) travels in time in its owm personal timeline. Likewise, each of us travels through time in OUR personal timeline. These can operate independently of each other.

The time travellers of Lost are always travelling forward in a straight line in their individual personal timelines, BUT they are visiting different locations in, for instance, the island's timeline. (Thinking of it like a location helps me.)

So at 12 years old and having so far lived in a single Earth timeline without traveling through time, Ben cannot know that he's a scary but well-meaning sociopath as an adult because he has not yet experienced that in his personal timeline. In the same manner, Sayid in 2004 does not know that he attempted to kill Lil' Ben in 1977 because, although this happened in the Earth's timeline years ago, he has not yet experienced it in his personal timeline.

Well, it makes sense in my head...

Posted by: PQSully | April 6, 2009 2:03 PM | Report abuse

MrMerkin !!!

Man am I busted !! I think I just lost all my 60's music cred. And I have nothing else to live for. But THAT'S okay. You are my island, course-correcting as needed. I'm not saying you are a rock you are an island. Just an island, my own island of truth.

Your response was very funny. Merkin's Law: If you CAN'T remember the sixties, you WERE really there.

I admit I'm a tad embarrassed and completely paralyzed by self-doubt, but I'll try to recover and carry on (and carry on, and carry on - is that BST?)

68,

Boy am I glad you're back. Things always get out of hand when you're away. We need the grownups. Thanks for the back-up about Pink Floyd in that time and place. Cody's ! Wow! Mario Savio used to work there. I think. But I digress again. Maybe the Sully's bailed because we all stated wandering off in our own little directions this week.

I WILL get back to the show.

I love you guys....

Posted by: camis | April 6, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

And now Sully's back ! It's a Beautiful Day !

Posted by: camis | April 6, 2009 2:45 PM | Report abuse

i'm curious as to what peoples thoughts are about why the time jumping sickness and the purge victims share the same sympton of the nosebleed...

i think that it has to be signficant... anyone else think so?

i have a theory, and it doesn't work in the whatever happened, happened, theory though... but it does need part of it for support...

for example, in one time loop, charlotte leaves the island, grows up in England and later returns to the island...

however, then something happens, the wheel is turned... 'rules changed' people travel through time, possibly try to interfere... and there is another time loop where charlotte never leaves the island and is on the island at the time of the purge....

however, because there is only one past now, where charlotte dies on the island in the purge, the charlotte that grew up and left, actually dies of the gas attack at thirtysomething because all time happens simultaneously and her youth self died in the purge... there can only be one charlotte, and she never grew up so her older self died of the same disease...

Posted by: tjkass | April 6, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

just to clarify... all the above is my theory... i don't think there is any evidence on the show that supports it... just none that dispute it... in my opinion

Posted by: tjkass | April 6, 2009 3:24 PM | Report abuse

never mind just read about temporal displacement...

Posted by: tjkass | April 6, 2009 4:10 PM | Report abuse

PQ Sully,

You've stated the Lost theory of time correctly. I don't understand why people are still confused about it. Especially if they are regular followers of this chat.

I also agree with you that Washpostemail is most likely on the right track up to this point in the show's storyline. It is a single timeline with slight variations. But Patabroad could be correct in the end and this is forshadowed by Widmore "having changed the rules" and Ben, perhaps, trying to do so himself. This changing of the rules might result in a non-unified theory of time. But we haven't seen enough evidence of that yet.

How's that for splitting the baby between our two disputants this week : - )

That being said, I must say I was a bit disappointed by this episode. I generally agree with the comments by Johnny-Zen above. The particular point that really bummed me out was Kate simply turing Aaron over to Claire's "mother". That was a let-down. I really thought the explanation would be that she was being threatened into going back to save Aaron, nothing as simple as going back to find Claire. But, the comments by some that Claire's "mother" might not be her mother could add that twist back to this event to make it more enjoyable.

Finally, for the record, I'll always be in the Kate is hot column, sweaty beer and all.

Posted by: dojemc | April 6, 2009 4:46 PM | Report abuse

camis wrote: "Hey! Ouch! The slings and arrows! Jethro Tull was a band, featuring the guy Ian something on the flute."

Sorry camis, I meant no disrespect. I went to college on the east cost in the early 70s and Dark Side of the Moon was played out of the windows of every dorm on campus. Oh, and Clapton was with Cream and Ian is Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull, who is to this day taking Bach and racking it up as he did 40 years ago with Bouree. You see, I do remember the 60s so I must have missed something according to Merkin's Law :-)

But back to really important matters, what I think is Juliet's mission. I'm leaning toward Juliet being on a mission, probably from Widmore but maybe on her own, to change Ben in the past. Juliet likely knows Ben's past and his loss of innocence. The plan involved getting the Lostees to 1977 when Ben is shot and taken to the Others to be mended causing his innocence to be lost. Juliet was to save Ben so he did not have to go to the Others to be saved. Ben gets shot but Juliet cannot save him according to the plan. The plan is failing so she goes to Jack and pleads with him, but he will not work on Ben. The failure of the plan explains Juliet's real anger with Jack. Juliet keeps trying to save Ben but Ben is dying, so she sends him to the Others because for some reason Ben cannot be allowed to die. The plan to prevent Ben from losing his innocence fails because whatever happened happened. Maybe they thought saving Ben instead of the Others saving him would be a small enough change as to be allowed by the rules, but it failed either because it was not a small change, or Ben actively prevented the plot.

The key to this theory is that Juliet's reason for originally going to the Lostees and living with them was to ensure she got the Lostees to 1977. Its also possible the bounty hunter who captured Sayid was hired by Widmore since she did not recognize Ben and Ben seemed a little surprised when he saw Sayid. And, since the mission is now over I expect the 1977 Lostees to return to 2007, probably via the upcoming "incident".

Congrats on the new puppy Sully. Hope you are getting some sleep. Our puppy, now 11 years old, whined non-stop throughout the night unless he was in bed with us. It took about a month before the whining stopped. Our daughter took only took 3 days to stop crying at night. Our next dog will be from the pound because you gotta have a dog in the house.

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 6, 2009 7:28 PM | Report abuse

bevjims1 wrote: "I expect the 1977 Lostees to return to 2007, probably via the upcoming 'incident'."

Ditto.

Posted by: MrMerkin | April 6, 2009 8:59 PM | Report abuse

for33 wrote: "Again, it is not clear what we know about Ethan, but one of the possibilities is that he is also ageless like Richard (remember that apparently we saw him shooting Locke at the time, early 90's, of Yemi's plane crash, looking exactly the same as in 2000 and in 2004). If Ethan is Amy's baby and loyal to Ben, both Richard and Juliet could have been "acting" in front of Ethan at the time of the recruiting."

I agree though I thought the date of Yemi's plane crash was undetermined, something like anywhere from 1994 to 2002. But, if Ethan was born in 1977 then he would be 27 in 2004 and he looks older than that, in his 30s anyway. And his name is Rom, not Goodspeed. And the icing on the cake for me is that Ethan Rom is an acronym for "The Roman". If Ethan and Richard are "old", then if Richard is Ra, then Ethan is a Roman god, or something like that. I think we'll be seeing Ethan again since you cannot kill a god.

And I think Kate is on her way toward redeeming herself, which seems to be the underlying theme in this show. Her turning point was losing Aaron in the store. She realized she needed something to take care of and Aaron was not hers to take care of. Claire is alive as far as she knows and so she went back to the island to find her and bring her back to Aaron. I don't remember her doing anything so unselfish before. Add to that Kate volunteering to save dying Ben by taking him to the Others. Whoa, wait a minute! Did she return to the island to take lil'Ben to the Others? Could Ben have made a deal with Kate, return and save lil'Ben and he'd call off the lawyers trying to take Aaron? That could explain Kate telling Jack never to ask about Aaron. Oh man I don't trust anyone anymore...Kate is either on her way to redemption or becoming more devious. I'm ... LOST!

Posted by: Fate1 | April 6, 2009 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for bringing up some Juliet questioning, bavjims. I've been meaning to, but I keep losing my train of thought once I try to type it out.

A few minutes ago I had a brand-new brain-flash about her that I can explain without a headache.

Juliet chose Carrie as her book-club selection. Oh, ***SPOILERS*** about Carrie follow.

Carrie White is pretty much held captive and tortured by her mom and the kids at school. Sue Snell takes pity on her, has her boyfriend take Carrie to prom where bad things happen and Carrie kills pretty much everyone, including her date. Sue Snell lives, but if I remember correctly, she miscarries.

So now I'm thinking that Juliet will be the cause of The Incident. And will end up killing Sawyer while she's at it.

Posted by: NotForYou1 | April 7, 2009 12:09 AM | Report abuse

bevjims1,

No disrespect taken. All in good fun.

I like your ideas about Juliet. So, what does she know about The Others that makes her so sure they can cure Lil Ben? The Others have magic powers of some kind?

Fate1,

I agree there is something goofy going on with Kate. I want to think she's redeeming herself by becoming less selfish, but her transition was waaaay too abrupt to be credible. And she seemed very distressed on that plane ride back to the island, which flies (haha) in the face of the notion that she is turning her life around, getting honest and getting happy. Something's up.

Sully,
What a great explanation of the timeline(s) that are at work in the story. Thank you!!

Posted by: camis | April 7, 2009 12:29 AM | Report abuse

"Sully,
What a great explanation of the timeline(s) that are at work in the story. Thank you!!"
Posted by: camis

You're welcome! It's easier to explain if you can draw a picture. But if I could post a picture, then i'd end up posting pictures of our puppy who is not named Vincent, and then WaPo would kick me off, so i guess it's for the best.

Posted by: PQSully | April 7, 2009 7:50 AM | Report abuse

re: all the Juliette suspicion. Mr. Sully also suspects Juliette, and I did in the beginning when she first joined the Losties (and she was truly playing spy), but I believe she's totally up and up now. The reserved mannerisms that have caused such suspicion I interpret as her reaction to all the horrible things that happened to her once she came to the island and 1) her lover was killed, 2) she realized she wasn't allowed to leave, 3) she was being pursued by an evil but well-meaning ham-baking sociopath, 4)she could not save a single mother and child on the island. Pre-island Juliette was relaxed and emotional. And I find 1977 Juliette more relaxed and emotional, although a tinge of her reserve returns when the O6 appear to possbily (in her mind) bring a return to the scary bad times.

While of course anything is possible on this show, I just don't get any vibe from the writers that Juliette is currently anything other than what she presents herself as: a doctor/mechanic who's found happiness with Sawyer in their little barracks in the jungle.

p.s. Our puppy killed a worm.

Posted by: PQSully | April 7, 2009 7:58 AM | Report abuse

“I also agree with you that Washpostemail is most likely on the right track up to this point in the show's storyline. It is a single timeline with slight variations.”

I realize I shouldn’t have used the phrase “single timeline” since it’s a red herring. Washpostemail and I both think there’s a single timeline; the alternative would be, likely, parallel universes which is ‘less realistic’ (requires an infinte universe) and makes for pretty boring TV!

What we differ on is whether the timeline is mutable. EXACTLY “whatever happened, happened” is an example of an immutable timeline (Washpostemail’s contention) where absolutely nothing can ‘change’; there cannot be a single misplaced death, chicken salad sandwich, or quark. Change is prevented by, say, Novikov’s self-consistency principle or some other force. You cannot have course correction in an immutable timeline because there are never any changes to correct. An immutable timeline (whereby Desmond always ‘changed’ the past/future) could give us a very unsatisfactory end to Lost, such as returning to the very first seen and have Jack realize he just, Dallasty-style, dreamt six seasons of action-packed drama.

Since we are led to believe that Desmond (and Eloise and others… or Others?) has changed both the past and future (as can anyone, perhaps, like Faraday, who interacts with Desmond in the past/future) the timeline cannot be immutable (ANY change makes the timeline mutable). From the evidence we have seen thus far, we have a mutable timeline where BROADLY “whatever happened, happened” (my contention). We have also learned about course correction (and why not to wear red shoes around scaffolding in London) which broadly maintains the timeline. Course correction only works if the timeline is mutable, albeit in an inflexible and temporary manner.

Perhaps the overriding reason to use a mutable timeline in an entertainment show is that it is more entertaining, such as Back to the Future and Dr Who!

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 7, 2009 9:00 AM | Report abuse

I would love to see the visual version of your timeline idea, Sully. How about a YouTube video ? Seriously.

Not-Vincent Killed A Worm? How adorable is that!

Posted by: camis | April 7, 2009 2:00 PM | Report abuse

p.s. Our puppy killed a worm.
Posted by: PQSully

Just remember that the puppy will grow and so will its taste in prey. And to keep the inorganic prey, like socks and hose, away from the puppy unless you want to find out what it costs to remove something like that from a puppy's stomach as we did. To bad we didn't have a donkey wheel to push and go back in time to prevent it but whatever happened happened and the universe would just find another way for our dog to need stomach surgery, so I'm with Jack, why bother when the universe is against you. Darn that immutable cosmic timeline! I might have been able to keep the dog from eating the big bag of M&Ms too...

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 7, 2009 2:33 PM | Report abuse

"Not-Vincent Killed A Worm? How adorable is that!"
Posted by: camis

I think the word you were really looking for there was "terrifying"! (Or so the 7-lb pup would have you believe.)

Posted by: PQSully | April 7, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

hah!

Posted by: camis | April 7, 2009 3:12 PM | Report abuse

"Just remember that the puppy will grow and so will its taste in prey. And to keep the inorganic prey, like socks and hose, away from the puppy unless you want to find out what it costs to remove something like that from a puppy's stomach as we did."
Posted by: bevjims1

Oh poor puppy! Luckily, Not-Vincent's daddy is working from home and is keeping his eagle eye on him. Right now his taste runs to, well, anything he can get his little teeth into. We're trying to get him hooked on chew toys.

And just so that I don't hijack the chat talking about my puppy, here's another Lost thought: To my knowledge, Ben has never shown any guilt for any of his actions. He appears to believe that the ends (whatever he really thinks they are) justify the means, no matter what he does. So what is Ben coming back to the island to be judged for? OR was he yet again just blowing smoke? (ha ha ha! see what i did there? with the smoke?)

Posted by: PQSully | April 7, 2009 3:13 PM | Report abuse

smoke !! hah !!

over and out -

Posted by: camis | April 7, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

I had composed a brilliant post about time travel and my new KATE vs JULIET comparison hobby (like how we know everything there is to know about Kate, but Juliet will only reveal information after careful consideration of the consequences )... but then WaPo censored me! I think maybe I cited too many other UserIDs in my comments and they didn't know if I was being sarcastic or not? (I wasn't.) Anyway, there have been some GREAT theories posted in the past few days.

PQ Sully: That was a GREAT explanation of the time travel experience on any given individual.. Thanks! Glad to have you back!! And BTW, you have to name your new dog "Ben." He already tortured and killed an expendable lower life form. Come on! Did the puppy show any GUILT about it? I ask you!

bevjims1, NotforYou1, tjkass, and dojemc: Great stuff as always!! I think we are on to something with the recovered memories = simultaneous events, but significant incidents (yes, pun intended) cannot be changed -- no matter whatever happens, it happens. Small details CAN be changed and strangely infulence the future, but serious stuff will happen the way it has to happen. (Like my previous HG Wells rant.)

camis: I was worried you were officially off the reservation on your magical mystery tour bus of LOST soundtrack, and we would have to call in MrMerkin to talk you down. You seem recovered.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 7, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Camis and Fate 1. I am in agreement with you that something more has to be going on with Kate going back to the island. I can also understand the redemption theory of Fate 1 as well. However, the redemption theory involving Kate as experienced in the last episode was weak. So my hope is that Kate is really on some other mission to save Aaron which we haven't seen yet.

Bevjims, good thoughts on Juliette. My thinking is that she is in 1977 on a long-term mission which will play out during the "incident." If not, I think that Juliette has been extremely underplayed by the actress playing her (temporary memory loss not due to any antics in the 70s . . . that I can recall). Her genuine anger at Jack leads me to believe she's got a deeper agenda going on.

Finally, Patabroad, your last post finally brought home your point most clearly. Your mutable vs. non-mutable argument is clear and the differences between yourself and washpostmail are fairly minor. The question is whether a slight course correction makes the timeline mutable. The next question becomes then does any course correction, no matter how small, really result in an entirely new timeline, even if the same result occurs (Charlie's death for instance). That would involve the concept of parallel universes. I'm not sure that it does but it is something that does have to be considered.

25 hours til the next show. As usual, can't wait.

Posted by: dojemc | April 7, 2009 6:06 PM | Report abuse

To my knowledge, Ben has never shown any guilt for any of his actions. He appears to believe that the ends (whatever he really thinks they are) justify the means, no matter what he does. So what is Ben coming back to the island to be judged for?
Posted by: PQSully

Well, I'll bring back my gods theory to attempt an explanation. According to the ancient Egyptian book of the dead, when one dies his soul starts a long journey through the underworld where it is tested. When he successfully passes these tests the last step is to stand before Osiris and have your heart weighed. Here are the basic steps the soul takes in the book of the dead (from Wikipedia):
* Chapters 1-16 The deceased enters the tomb, descends to the underworld, and the body regains its powers of movement and speech. (Locke can walk, people heal quickly)
* Chapters 17-63 Explanation of the mythic origin of the gods and places, the deceased are made to live again so that they may arise, reborn, with the morning sun. (lil'Ben is saved but his innocence is lost)
* Chapters 64-129 The deceased travels across the sky in the sun ark as one of the blessed dead. In the evening, the deceased travels to the underworld to appear before Osiris. (to be judged, where Ben will go before Osiris [smokey] to be judged by having his heart weighed against the feather of truth)
* Chapters 130-189 Having been vindicated, the deceased assumes power in the universe as one of the gods. (Ben's intent and why he stops at nothing)

I can taste that beer now...

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 7, 2009 8:02 PM | Report abuse

PQ Sully: That was a GREAT explanation of the time travel experience on any given individual.. Thanks! Glad to have you back!! And BTW, you have to name your new dog "Ben." He already tortured and killed an expendable lower life form. Come on! Did the puppy show any GUILT about it? I ask you!

Posted by: a68comeback |

Actually, his name is Charlie. He's trying to overcome his worm addiction. Really.

Oh, and I STILL don't believe Claire is dead. Maybe mostly dead, but mostly dead is still slightly alive.


Posted by: louiesully | April 7, 2009 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Yes, Bevjims, sweaty beer and Evangeline Lilly. It doesn't get better than
that : - )

Posted by: dojemc | April 7, 2009 10:53 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and I STILL don't believe Claire is dead. Maybe mostly dead, but mostly dead is still slightly alive.
Posted by: louiesully

Well this brings up another point of speculation. Just what sort of dead are Christian and Locke, and possibly Jacob, Richard and maybe Claire. Ya know, a lot of people speculated that the island was purgatory when Lost was in season 2. Lindecruse said that was not the case, but purgatory is a Christian concept. The ancient Egyptian concept is similar and called the underworld where many tests are performed to determine whether you reach heaven and even become a god yourself.

Consider that a plane broke up into three pieces high in the sky over an island and crashed in three places, and over 40 people survived. That's always been something I only accepted as possible since, well, its a TV show. But think about it, its not possible and the Lostees are not survivors but are in the underworld being tested with Osiris (smokey) now and then weighing their hearts and passing judgement (like on poor Eko). Of course not everyone is in this state. Juliet is alive as are those from the freighter (Miles and Faraday). Sort of an "I see dead people" sort of existence. And Claire had it all explained to her by dear old dad, which is why she seems happy to just hang with dad and cares less about Aaron. It seems once you know the truth about the island, lives and survival are a joke, which only makes sense if no one is mostly alive but instead are mostly dead. And if I keep on this line of speculation I see Desmond indeed being special and has been made a god by Osiris after Des spent years pushing the button and then turned the failsafe key saving his fellow man at a high risk. Des just doesn't know it yet but Ben may have found out when he tried to visit Penny.

Or maybe not...

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 7, 2009 11:25 PM | Report abuse

"It seems once you know the truth about the island, lives and survival are a joke, which only makes sense if no one is mostly alive but instead are mostly dead."
Posted by: bevjims1

Hmm! I confess I'm not into the whole gods theory, but the rest is interesting, most interesting. But then the question I have is: how can the O6 return to the real world and build lives as dead people? UNLESS... what IF everyone on Oceanic 815 DID die except the O6? That would mean... um... okay, I haven't had my tea yet this morning, so I'm not awake enough to know what that means.

Posted by: PQSully | April 8, 2009 7:35 AM | Report abuse

bevjims1: you are always blowing my mind, but in light of the episode description for tonight my nose is ALREADY bleeding. Thanks a lot. Your Egyptian Book of the Dead info, especially for chapters 64-129, was really helpful. And scary.

louiesully: I love the puppy's name! Charlie is perfect! And I am with you about Claire. Just because she vanished and hangs out with a dead guy doesn't mean she's all dead. They kind of owe us a resolution about her. And note to writers: the chocolate coating makes it go down easier.

Posted by: a68comeback | April 8, 2009 11:11 AM | Report abuse

"how can the O6 return to the real world and build lives as dead people? UNLESS... what IF everyone on Oceanic 815 DID die except the O6? That would mean... um... okay, I haven't had my tea yet this morning, so I'm not awake enough to know what that means."
Posted by: PQSully

Because they are only dead mostly. As people on their way through the ancient egyptian journey toward the afterlife they would still be around though not as lively as they appear, including giving birth as Sun did. So I'm not very confident about this possibility.

That leads me to another related idea, that the O6 and other survivors are children of gods and demi-gods (hybrid of a god and a mortal), which is why they can survive plane crashes, disappear from planes flying over the island, heal quickly and even be able to walk again as Locke did. Christian, Jacob and RA and possibly Ethan (acronym for The Roman) would be gods. The Lostees would be demi-gods, brought to the island for the coming war Widmore (another demigod) spoke of but do not know they are demigods, except Claire who seems to know what's going on now. But even if Claire is a demigod I don't understand why she doesn't seem to care about Aaron. She's still a mother and the gods loved their children as mortals do, so I'm not sure why Claire seems so aloof about Aaron. Ben is not a god or demigod, but he can become a god if he follows the book of the dead and becomes pure of heart. Don't see how that is going to happen, unless he was judged as a child and found to be pure and Osiris (smokey) made him a god or demigod.

Can't wait for tonight!

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 8, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

one more before tonight:

Was Cassidy Kate's shrink? She sure talked like that, and Kate sure listened to her. And the last time we saw them together, Kate was on the couch!

No comment about Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassidy. Or how Kerouac was so lost in his life (wandering around looking for meaning) and how he idolized and trusted Cassidy, which turned out to be a big mistake.

68, I've recovered. You could say i've made a 68comeback. I really like MrMerkin, often wish I could meet you guys but I guess the anonymity is part of the deal here. Camis is an old nickname based on my high-school obsession with Camus. Put that in your pipe and.. oh never mind. Enough of that stuff.

This show suddenly reminded my of a screenplay i read years ago by Dennis Potter, the late great British writer, who was unfortunately sexist but had other qualities. He wrote a wonderful a script (never produced) called The Man Who Could Not Die.

About a young medical equipment salesman who flies to Denver to sell the latest life support machine to a hospital. Then is killed when his helicopter crashes - and ends up being the first ever patient on the life-support machine. He can hear the doctors, who keep bringing him "back" but he wants to go. In his suspended state, his etherial body visits all the people he had conflicted relationship with - he resolves all the loose ends - and finally gets to die then. I know it's an obscure reference but this may be a universal theme also found in Lost.

Special shout out to Charlie. (Guess I'll eat some worms).


Posted by: camis | April 8, 2009 2:19 PM | Report abuse

Could our favorite puppy be the reincarnation of Charles Widmore? I mean, "Widmore' is an acronym for "Die Worm". Oh, now my nose is bleeding...

Enjoy the show tonight!

Posted by: bevjims1 | April 8, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

Will we learn more about time jumping and memories tonight?

We know Rousseau remembered Jin as he flashed through 1988 (and would perhaps remember him in 2004 if she was in a better state of mind). We know 1974 Alpert remembered meeting 1950’s Locke (and perhaps ~2007 Widmore remembers meeting 1950’s Locke too). And perhaps they (Rousseau, Alpert, Widmore) remembered because they (Jin and Locke) were always meant to travel back.

But Desmond only suddenly remembered Faraday’s unscheduled visit to the Swan (early 2000’s) much later (at least 9 months into the year 2005). And this, presumably, was because Faraday (using Desmond) changed the timeline.

Posted by: PatAbroad | April 8, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse

"Could our favorite puppy be the reincarnation of Charles Widmore? I mean, "Widmore' is an acronym for "Die Worm"."
Posted by: bevjims1

Thank goodness LouieSully read this first and warned me; otherwise my morning tea would be shooting out my nose right now! I can never look at Charlie the same way now.

Posted by: PQSully | April 9, 2009 7:16 AM | Report abuse

Where is this week's analysis?

Posted by: hiberniantears | April 9, 2009 10:45 AM | Report abuse

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