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Posted at 9:30 AM ET, 05/14/2009

'Lost' Dueling Analysis: 'The Incident, Parts 1 and 2'

By Liz Kelly

In which Jen Chaney and I wade through time and space to bring you our final show analysis of the season. Read, digest, add your thoughts -- then join us at 3 p.m. ET for the "Lost" Hour live chat. Hungry for more? Visit "Lost" Central.

What lies in the shadow of the statue? Jacob (Mark Pellegrino). (ABC)

Jen: Liz, I have to be honest. I don't know where to start. When the island maybe blew up at the end of the episode, my brain sort of exploded with it. I don't know what to think going into the final season. But let's focus on the things we learned.

We learned that Vincent is alive and well, as are Rose and Bernard. (Bernard looked tanned, rested and a lot like Charlton Heston in "The Ten Commandments.") We learned that Jacob is a lot like the old woman who lived in a shoe, except he's a non-aging man who lives in a foot. We learned that Ben is a Pisces. We learned that Jack can't stop loving Kate; in fact, his love for her is atomic. And in that last cut-to-white moment -- a nod to "The Sopranos" cut-to-black perhaps -- we learned that it's going to be a long, hellish wait until they get this thing started again in 2010.

Liz: Since you gave us a thorough run down of what we learned, I'll take the other tack -- what we didn't learn or, as I like to call it, the things that blew at least one gasket in my already enfeebled brain.

Did anyone really die? Including Jacob? Sure, we saw Ben stab him and John Locke -- or Bizarro John Locke (BJL) -- kick him into a fire, but he's Jacob. He can make Richard eternally young, so who's to say he won't rise again in about eight months? We also didn't really see Juliet or Sayid -- the other two characters at death's door -- actually cross the threshold. (Though I should mention that Elizabeth Mitchell has apparently signed on to "V: The Series," so that could mean she's not planning to come back in 2010.)

Who, or what, is BJL? And, most importantly, why -- of all things -- would little Katie choose a New Kids on the Block lunchbox to boost from the gas station?

Much more after the jump...


Jen: Because Kate obviously had a thing for Donnie Wahlberg. Or perhaps she thought she could use it as a weapon, or sell it for twice the price to some silly boy-band-loving classmate.

Liz: Or maybe she was saving it to sell on eBay. Although bidding on this model seems to be stalled at 99 cents.

Jen: But let's talk about BJL. Based on the conversation between Jacob and his unidentified buddy at the very beginning of the episode (for the record, ABC officially identifies them in their press release as Man No. 1 and Man No. 2), it would appear that Bizarro Locke, or Evil Locke, is some form of that guy. BJL made a reference to the loophole that Jacob and Man No. 2 discussed initially. I certainly think we, the viewers, were meant to make a connection there.

Liz: And that brings up one more thing we learned -- Jacob and Man No. 2 predate the Black Rock on the island. And according to No. 2 it is Jacob who brings outsiders to the island to, as he says, "come, fight, destroy and corrupt."

Jen: And do it over and over again. Which pretty much summarizes what has happened on the island over the years, a point that also was made by Rose and Bernard later. The question is, why does Jacob invite these outsiders from the Black Rock? What's his motivation?

Liz: And what did Jacob mean when he replied to that statement with, "It only ends once. Anything before that is just progress." I have to admit that was a stumper for me.

Jen: Yeah, that was a bit cryptic. Not that this helps much, but I thought he was referring to the end of the cycle Man No. 2 was referring to. Perhaps the explosion at the close of tonight's episode put an end to the cycle of destruction and corruption?

Ben (Michael Emerson) sticks it to Jacob (Mark Pellegrino). (ABC)

Liz: So, after all the build-up were you satisfied with finally meeting Jacob or, like Ben Linus, are you feeling a bit stabby?

Jen: Well, in some ways it was kind of anti-climactic. I mean, we've been waiting to meet this God-like figure and it turns out he's just some blond dude who wanders into social occasions uninvited?

"Looking for that special random guest for your next funeral, Korean wedding or the moment after you get shoved out of a window? Then call Jacob at 1-800-GUY-IN-FOOT."

But he also certainly seemed to be an admirable God or Christ-like sort of entity. He offered comfort. He offered spiritual guidance. He gave Hurley a guitar case -- still a bit confused by that one. But he also caused Nadia's death, so he isn't always benevolent. Still, one could argue that he affected the course of everyone's destinies. But did he lead them toward the island or away from it? Or to be more specific, were we seeing flashes of all these people's experiences as they happened before, or were these encouters with Jacob glimpses into a new reality created by two variables: the (seeming) death of Jacob and/or the bomb's detonation?

If Jacob told Kate not to steal, and told Sun and Jin not to take each other for granted, and offered comfort to Locke after he fell, etc., it would seem that he gave them advice that might have changed the behavior that plagued them before they got to the island. If Kate listened to him, for instance, she might not have become a criminal. And Sun and Jin might never have found their marriage strained at any point. So by killing Jacob did Ben undo all the work Jacob may have done to put our Losties on a proper course?

Liz: I also couldn't help but notice that he physically touched all of them. That has to be significant. It struck me as almost a laying on of hands -- certainly in the case of reviving Locke after his skyscraper fall. So, he may have said one thing, but his touch could also have made a difference in their fates.

And I think he led them toward the island. He chose those people specifically. Could it be because Jacob has knowledge of the future and knows that that particular rag-tag group of misfits may just save him or the island or mankind? If you take No. 2's statement again, "they come, fight, destroy and corrupt," I have to also assume he could be talking about himself and Jacob. There's obviously no love lost there and Jacob seems to have been one step ahead of No. 2 at most turns. So he could have brought Jack et al there anticipating a need for a reluctant, incredibly flawed group of saviors.

I'm inclined to like Jacob, by the way. How can you not like a guy who sews? And he makes his own thread on a spinning wheel that looks remarkably similar to the Frozen Donkey Wheel.

Jen: He's a weaver, more than a sewer, right? This was probably just me, but when we first see him at the loom in the beginning, all I could think of was a variation of that Tom Waits song: "What is he weaving in there?"

Liz: Yes, he's weaving -- a form of creation. While No. 2, thus far, is all about destruction.

Jen: Jacob does seem pretty mellow. The only thing that gave me pause was the fact that he caused Nadia's death. That seemed pretty cruel.

My other question, and I apologize for skipping ahead, is who the heck has been hanging out in Jacob's cabin? Ilana said someone else has been occupying it. She based that on a note, which was basically a photo of the statue. That's how Jacob leaves notes: "Out running errands. Meetcha over at the foot."

Liz: I assumed it had been Ben Linus back in 2004. It didn't look like anyone had been there for quite some time.

My assumption was that Ilana was seeing the remnants from when Ben had used it to feign his meeting with Jacob. The note was left by Jacob as a forwarding address.

Jen: Well, how come Ben and Locke didn't notice it?

Liz: I would assume it was left after Ben and John had been there.

Jen: See, I thought perhaps someone else had been trying to pass himself off as Jacob. But I think Ben was the only one playing games on that score.

Liz: You could be right -- we still don't have any information about the Christian Shephard wraith. We've been assuming he's a Jacob manifestation. But I suppose he could be some kind of rogue wraith.

Jen: You know what? Let's give Ben some credit for not lying ONCE in this entire episode. That we know of.

Liz: Are we sure he's a Pisces?

Maybe we should switch gears. How about to the Swan and the convergence of Jack and his gang with Juliet, Sawyer and Kate?

Jen: Can I just say that Elizabeth Mitchell was phenomenal tonight? Her conflicted feelings about Sawyer and her sorrow about ending that relationship were so palpable. When she delivered that line about not wanting to have ever met him so she'd never have to experience losing him ... well, that was just a crusher.

Liz: Yes, and her lines -- and how they were delivered -- before she let go of Sawyer's hand and fell away into the electromagnetic vortex -- rivaled the Penny/Desmond "Constant" moment from last season.

Jen: That scene also was the inverse of the end of season two. Instead of people almost getting blown out of the Hatch, Juliet was sucked into it. It also reminded me of season one a little bit, which ended with Jack and Locke looking down into the darkness of the Hatch. Here, we saw what was in the bottom of this pseudo-pit, but we don't know what that white light will lead us to.

Liz: So, aside from Jack's heroic effort to right what he perceives as a vast cosmic mistake, the most important question from this reconvening of Jack, Sawyer and Kate is: Does this mean the triangle is back on? Sawyer sure did seem to be pining for Kate, which is of course what changed Juliet's mind. And Jack, as we learned, wants Kate back although he's not willing to actually tell her that and would instead rather detonate a hydrogen bomb and potentially kill several innocent people (if Dharma red shirts count as innocent people) in order to have about a 1 percent chance of meeting her in some kind of reboot of the clock.

Jen: Actually, I felt like Jack and Juliet were both motivated by the same thing. Both didn't want to experience the loss of the people they loved, so they preferred to have never met them at all. I felt like that's where Jack was going. So much for his generous desire to save Charlie, Libby, Boone, etc. from death by stopping the crash.

But I do think the triangle is back on. Why? Because the triangle is so season one. And season six is going to relate back to season one, as others have noted as well.

Liz: Hey, here's an idea: Maybe instead of John Locke, No. 2 could turn himself into a Bizarro Kate Austin and there'd be one for both Jack and Sawyer.

And before I forget I just want to note another instance of characters not asking natural questions or making rational statements. To wit, the five-minute parley between Jack and Sawyer. Why did Sawyer not say, "My, Jack, that's an awful lot of blood you've got on your coveralls. To whom did it belong? Anyone I know?" And, conversely, would Jack have not said something like, "Listen Sawyer, I'd love to sit here listening to your life story, but Sayid is bleeding to death in the back of a VW van. And it doesn't have air conditioning."

Pensioners Rose (L. Scott Caldwell) and Bernard (Sam Anderson). (ABC)

Jen: Totally! When Jack was like, "Fine. I'll give you five minutes," I'm like, "What do you mean you're giving him five minutes? Sayid's bleeding out and you have a nuclear bomb in the car. Kind of hard to imagine a more urgent scenario than that."

And for the record, Hurley easily could have gunned it and driven around the three of them. I'm just sayin'.

Liz: At last night's "Lost" Happy Hour (thanks to everyone who attended!) there was no clear frontrunner when we asked people who they thought would be the major character to die. I think I heard Sayid, Sawyer, Juliet and Kate. And, you know what? All were plausible candidates. Just another testament to the storytelling power of LindeCuse. They know how to keep us guessing.

In case you missed it, some scenes from the Happy Hour:

Jen: I know, I know. So do you feel Sawyer really isn't destined to be with Juliet even though he loves her?

Liz: I think that Juliet is right. Sawyer loves her, but he is not drawn to her, against his better judgment, as he is to Kate. As Juliet said, he would have stayed with her forever because it would have been the right thing. But Kate would have always been the one making his heart skip a beat. He knew he should have loved Juliet that way, but just didn't. It was a nicely done bit of pathos thrown into an action-packed sci-fi heavy episode.

Jen: I tend to agree. Also, while I love the notion of them being committed to each other, I never felt as invested in that relationship, mainly because we the viewers didn't see it evolve the same way we witnessed Kate's relationship with Sawyer evolve over several seasons.

I think season six is going to revisit a lot of season one baggage, though. And that means Kate-Sawyer-Jack is going to be central again. That triangle provides the best set of identity questions and should make Kate more interesting. Which I know you can't wait to see.

Liz: Although now I think some people might be moving over to the Juliet column. After that speech, I know I've crept a bit in that direction. And as I told several people last night, I love to hate Kate and would miss her were she to leave our happy little island.

So we finally got the payoff of seeing Pierre Chang's hand impaled by a flying piece of steel and Miles use superhuman strength to free his father.

Jen: Yes, kudos to our readers who insisted that would happen. The "Empire Strikes Back" stuff paid off big.

Liz: Aside from the Oceanic Six, Jacob also visited Ilana in a hospital in some unknown country to ask for her help. That was an odd scene. Why was Ilana in the hospital in the first place? And it wasn't lost on us, I'm sure, that her bandages were somewhat reminiscent of a mummy's wrappings.

Jen: It seemed like a military hospital to me.

Liz: Could be. But it did make it clear that she returned to the island because she had a personal invite. And we saw her finally get the answer she wanted to her confounded "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" question. From Ricardus, aka Richard Alpert. And Latin response translates as "He who will protect us all," according to reader ooyah32.

Jen: Okay, that makes sense.

I also need to point out something really important: All of Sun's dialogue consists of questions now. With the exception of her wedding flashback, every line she uttered ended with a question mark. "Who is Jacob? What's he like?"

Liz: Or "Do you have any alcohol?"

Jen: It was a little much. She went from being a vengeful, take-no-prisoners type earlier in the season to just running along after Ben and Locke asking questions. I like her better when she's hitting people with oars.

Liz: I'm glad we're not in the same room.

Jen: Before we go any further, I want to note that we still didn't get a clear answer to the central question of season five: can these characters change the future or will events play themselves out the same way regardless of what actions they take? In their pre-fistfight conversation, Jack and Sawyer revisited this territory with no resolution. And I think the writers left us hanging on that question because (I suspect) when we land back in season six, we'll be in a different time and space. And we'll have to figure out whether Jack's gamble with the bomb really did prevent Oceanic 815's crash.

So should we talk Flannery O'Connor? Jack Bender, who directed this episode, clearly wants us to. If the camera had focused any more tightly on that O'Connor book I might have been able to read it myself.

Liz: Yep, Jacob was spotted reading O'Connor's "Everything That Rises Must Converge," which according to our trusty friend Wikipedia is a book of short stories. I've never read the book itself, but in scanning the Wiki entry, I was led to one Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, from whom O'Connor took the title of her book. And de Chardin wrote, among other things, a book called "The Phenomenon of Man."

Here's Wiki's description of the book:

Teilhard writes of the unfolding of the material cosmos, from primordial particles to the development of life, human beings and the noosphere, and finally to his vision of the Omega Point in the future, which is "pulling" all creation towards it.

Jen: Sounds like the magnetic anomaly over at the Swan. I found the names of the stories in that book pretty interesting.

"A View of the Woods"

"Judgment Day"

And my personal favorite, "The Lame Shall Enter First," which reminds me of Locke. That, or it's a reference to the fact that we were the first people at last night's happy hour.

Liz: Speak for yourself.

Okay, so there were so many small details in tonight's show -- the Drive Shaft ring, James's letter to "Mr. Sawyer" -- there's no way we can cover them all. And hey, this isn't a recap, so we don't have to. But maybe we can each name our favorite moment from tonight's show and then make a quick list of what we'd like to see in episode one of season 6, eight months hence.

Jen: I need to divide my favorite moments into three categories.

First, pure comedy: It's a tie between Ben saying he's a Pisces and his response when Locke tried to point out that the door to the Hatch was behind them. "It's a door. How about that?"

For pure suspense: the last 10 minutes of the episode, when the electromagnetism got fired up, Juliet was about to fall, etc. That was thrilling and sad all at once.

But the most joyful moment of the night was when Vincent came bounding across that beach. I seriously started clapping.

Liz: I've chosen just one because in an A+ episode it just stood out: Juliet's monologue to Sawyer before sacrificing herself to the drill hole at the Swan. Elizabeth Mitchell did such an excellent job of making it heartfelt without crossing the line into sappiness. It wasn't revelatory or cerebral, but it was incredibly touching. I cried, dammit.

Jen: Oh, shoot! I forgot one.

Liz: Jen!

Jen: I thought Michael Emerson's speech to Jacob, before he got all stabby, was incredible. Ben was such a broken guy in this whole episode and I really felt the years of frustration he has felt in everything he said. It was just fantastic.

Jen: Now, what do we want from the first episode of season six?

Liz: Well, first off -- I'd like to know whose eye that was in the promo at the end.

Jen: I need to know if the island blew up. I mean, it's a small detail. But I feel it needs to be addressed.

Liz: And we need to find out who is actually dead since we have three potential corpses.

Jen: Actually, hang on. We have three potential corpses -- Juliet, Sayid and Jacob -- and one actual corpse -- Locke -- that has spawned an Evil Spirit Offshoot.

Liz: That's not too much to ask, is it?


Share your favorite moments, theories, frustrations, etc., below, then join us at 3 p.m. ET for the "Lost" Hour live chat.

By Liz Kelly  | May 14, 2009; 9:30 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Lost sure loves beating the piss out of people in season enders. I'm not sure who looked worse, Jack this season or Ben in Season 3.

Posted by: BPal | May 14, 2009 9:56 AM | Report abuse

I think Rose and Bernard were living in jacob's cabin in the 70s. The fact that the 2 scenes were back to back implies it. I compared their hut to the cabin in 2007 and they could be one in the same. The cabin may just be a worn out shell of the hut.

Posted by: skitch00 | May 14, 2009 10:03 AM | Report abuse

I do not think Jacob caused Nadia's death. I think he was acually saving Sayid from being hit by the car as well. If he didn't ask Sayid a question then Sayid would have been in the intersection. He needed to protect Sayid so that Sayid would ultimately end up on the island. I saw all of Jacob's encounters with the Losties as efforts to intervene at pivotal points in their lives so that they would be on a course that would lead them to the island.

Posted by: buffysummers | May 14, 2009 10:03 AM | Report abuse

The opening scene with Jacob and Un-Locke was nifty, conjuring up Spy vs. Spy images in my head.

Posted by: Trevor40 | May 14, 2009 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Jacob didn't kill Nadia, he saved Sayid. If he hadn't stopped Sayid they both would have been killed.

Posted by: StevenMaloney | May 14, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Written before reading the column or comments --

So, this is my thinking --

All this time we thought we were dealing with Jacob -- apparitions of Christian, Walt, Dave, etc. -- we were actually dealing with the anti-Jacob, the dark unnamed guy at the beginning, when the Black Rock was arriving. We thought we were dealing with the resurrected Locke, but "dead is dead," and the real Locke is deader than Marley. The NotLocke we saw was actually the anti-Jacob. And he has probably been misleading various factions of the Hostiles/Others into thinking that he is Jacob for a while. This guy is EVIL and DARKNESS.

The real Jacob, who we only now see, having interacted with various Losties at crucial times in their lives, is GOOD and LIGHT. His followers truly are "the good guys."

But the thing is this -- Ben did not kill Jacob. (Actually, it was more in the nature of a ritual sacrifice -- a stabbing followed by burning holocaust on the fire.) Or, rather, he did kill him, but Jacob will live again.

Jacob, being GOOD and LIGHT, is a Christ figure, an Aslan figure, while the anti-Jacob is the Satan/White Witch figure. (Especially when one considers this - What lies in the shadow of the statue? Ille qui nos omnes servabit - “He who will protect/save us all”)

Clearly, Jacob could have explained things to Ben, pointing out that NotLocke is not Locke, and he could have answered Ben's anguished questions. Instead, he remained mute (as Jesus mostly did at his trial) and seemed to invite Ben to kill him, but after reminding Ben that he had free will -- he had the freedom to choose the good or choose the evil.

Jacob accepted his own death as a sacrifice, but he will rise again.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 10:09 AM | Report abuse

Several comments.
First, showing Jacob as a weaver or spinner has to remind of us of the Fates who spin out destiny (Greek mythology). But Jacob repeatedly says, "you have a choice." So this echoes the central question of this season, is the future predetermined or is there free will? Jacob appears to be some type of supernatural force (if not actually a God, perhaps a demon or angel) and makes a decisive change in the lives of people he visits, but the individual still has a choice of what decisions to make after that. (Kate could have stopped stealing, which would have stopped the chain of events leading to her being on the Oceanic flight initially; Hurley could have stayed in LA, etc.)
Secondly, the scene with Elizabeth hanging on to Sawyer's hand was an replay of Hitchcock's trademark scenes in North by Northwest (Mount Rushmore) and Sabotage (on the Statue of Liberty). I was so hoping that there would be a cut to Sawyer pulling Juliet into the upper berth of a train compartment as in N by NW instead of the fatal fall! (Sob)
Overall, I loved the narrative structure of this episode, with multiple groups moving against deadline (and in different time periods) across the island towards a climax. This type of plotting is what Lost does best. (somewhat like the best of the plotting in the Lord of the Rings novels/movies).
There is a bit of a paradox for the viewer. Because we are viewing these separate plotlines concurrently, we have a sense that they are occurring at the same "time" (at least our consciousness of time)(even though separated by 30 years). So they present the question of interrelatedness: if Jacob is killed in 2007, will that affect the Losties who are in 1977? If Jack's explosion of the nuclear device prevents the Hatch, will that affect the Jacob confrotation in 2007, including Ben, pseudo Locke, Sun? The 1977 events would seem likely to affect 2007, as they are intended to modify the future, so that Locke and Sun and Lapidus (and Liana and her crew) would not have come to the island at all if Oceanic had never crashed there. But nevertheless we have a feeling that the 2 plotlines converge and affect each other, because they are affecting us as the viewer.
I was also struck with the vision of the 2 doctors, so concerned with preserving life and the Hippocratic oath, wildly firing guns and killing people at the Swan site, for the crazy and uncertain purpose of preventing the electromagnetic incident. Now some of those Dharma folks had beaten up Sawyer & Juliet (Juliet would have known this but not Jack), but still, I'm bothered by Jack firing away at anyone in a Dharma suit. Especially since his motivation supposedly is to prevent all the deaths he experienced on the island. (Or is he confident that these shooting deaths will be "undone" by changing the history, as he will then never be on the island,....? (my head hurts with this thought!)

Posted by: Lindytx | May 14, 2009 10:10 AM | Report abuse

You say Jacob caused Nadia's death...perhaps your perspective is wrong and Jacob actually saved Sayid's life. If he had not stopped him, they both may have been run over by the car.

Posted by: malay10 | May 14, 2009 10:11 AM | Report abuse

First of all, thank you so much to Liz, Jen and Lisa (the one sitting by the door?) for organizing last night's happy hour. Even though I couldn't stay long, it was great meeting you and swapping theories with other Lostophiles.

Loved it loved it loved it. 2010 is waaaaaaay too far away. I'm so happy for the resolutions and I do have some more questions. But I feel that if last night was the Series Finale, I'd be at peace with it. I know where Vincent, Rose and Bernard are, we found out who Jacob is, we found out about the Statue and the Black Rock. The only thing I had a question about was smokey. My big guess is that he was created from the incident, as was the pregnancy issue on the island. I'm glad that we saw that Chang's arm was really injured in the Incident. HA to those of you who doubted it. :)
I noticed the Jacob touching thing, too, which follows from a hint Lindecuse gave on Doc Jensen's Totally Lost, that this episode would be "touching" where touching is not necessarily emotional. It seems that the word "Promise" was tossed around a lot by Jacob last night. Every time he touched someone, it seemed to seal the promise, and if the promise wasn't fulfilled, they were doomed! Kate promised not to steal, Jin and Sun promised to not take their marriage for granted. I agree that it was kind of a "laying of hands," but also a method of marking the survivors. But did anyone realize that Jacob did not visit during Juliet's flashback? That was the first clue to me that she would die...she wasn't meant to be there in the first place.

I kind of viewed Jacob and "Man #2" as a kind of Christ/Antichrist dichotomy. Jacob was busy saving people and protecting the island. He seemed to have faith in people and kept bringing them to the island to see if they could live in peace. Man #2 doubted this approach and was trying to poke holes in Jacob's plan, saying "They're all trying to kill you" and "It's the same thing over and over again." (which has meanings on so many levels!!!!)
When Man #2 comes back as Locke, it's like the wolf in sheep's clothing. He took on the visage of Locke to earn the trust of Richard, Sun, Ben and the rest. Then he infiltrated Jacob's camp and convinced Ben "Judas" Linus to kill Jacob.
I'm still confused about who's on which side, and I wonder who is coming, per Jacob.
I've got so much more to say, but I have to write covertly as my job is in jeopardy and I have to do work.

Posted by: eet7e | May 14, 2009 10:13 AM | Report abuse

I think Man No. 2 is also the Christian Shepard wandering around the island.

What I got from jacob viting all of the losties pre-island was to show that they are part of a larger plan, that it is their destiny to come to the island this whole time. Jacob didnt really do anything obvious to steer them in the direction of getting on flight 815, but the visits showed the viewer that they have been tartgeting from an early time and that they all have a purpose.

Posted by: skitch00 | May 14, 2009 10:14 AM | Report abuse

** he also caused Nadia's death, so he isn't always benevolent **

Where did it show Jacob causing her death??

It only showed him SAVING Sayid's life. Nadia's death was caused by the guy who (perhaps purposely) ran her over.

If Jacob is some god-like being, let's not so quickly fall into the error of blaming God for causing evil in the world.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Fantastic finale! It even had a Western-style shoot-em-up. But one thing bothers me ... well, many things both me ... but I gotta wonder, if the plutonium bomb fits into a backpack and the whole bomb weighed 20 tons, and the only other component of a H-bomb is hydrogen, the lightest element in the universe, just what was that other 20 tons for?

But I was happy my prediction came true that Dan wrote instructions in his journal on how to detonate the bomb. I used it as an example to tell my daughter she needs to keep journals. But I got to wonder where Dan got that information from and then how Sayid follow the scrawled instructions, then set it to detonate on "impact". A stretch, but the tension of the story put that all aside.

And I loved the white screen at the end with the Lost logo. Nice touch...

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 14, 2009 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Ooyah32 not only provided us with the interpretation to the question "what lies in the shadow of the statue?" but in another thread also had a great theory that the anti-Jacob/UnLocke was really all of the dead people who appear on the Island like Locke, and Christian.

I like this idea, and wonder if he was also the voice Locke heard in the cabin that said "help me"? Was Anti-Locke also the manifestations of Alex and Yemi? If so, does he have a connection with the smoke monster?

Posted by: garton | May 14, 2009 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Could the "someone else" using the cabin have been No.2? And maybe the thing/person/spirit/whatever that Locke saw in the cabin with Ben was actually No.2 asking Locke to help him??

Posted by: AmberGale | May 14, 2009 10:18 AM | Report abuse

Also, it is pretty clear that Jacob did more than offer comfort and revive Locke - "revive" in the sense of bringing him back to consciousness.

Rather, Jacob "revived" Locke in the sense of bringing him back to life ("viva" in Latin is "live"). No one could have survived that fall. And guess what? Locke didn't. Locke died when he landed, but Jacob brought him back to life.

The question is, will the resurrected Jacob bring Locke in the Box back to life?

Similarly, by touching the others, he gave them some power to survive a plane crash that was impossible for anyone to survive.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 10:20 AM | Report abuse

What the h#ll is in that guitar case? Did Jacob leave it in the cab, or did someone leave it there before him? Perhaps it's Charlie - and maybe finding the driveshaft ring is a clue.

Posted by: jhusson1 | May 14, 2009 10:22 AM | Report abuse

All in all pretty satisfying. I thought the reveal of "Locke in a Box" was great. All season long, any and all of the characters who have special insight or vatic powers have said, dead is dead, including Richard in this episode. All along LindeCuse has been telling us that wasn't Locke.

And speaking of Locke, it turns out all of Richard's suspicions (that he voices to 1970s Jack) are correct: Locke is not special. We find out that all the pushing on Richard to think Locke is special really was coming from FakeLocke. I am impressed with the elegance of how the Locke stuff all fits together.

All of the apparitions of the dead on the Island seem logical to attribute to Jacob's rival "Esau."

I also think Jacob goaded Ben into killing him. Further shades of Narnia that Aslan has to die, so as to achieve his purpose.

All in all, a solid two-hours.


Posted by: cekrypton1 | May 14, 2009 10:22 AM | Report abuse

I believe that the guy with Jacob on the beach at the beginning is the smoke monster. He can manifest himself as un-buried bodies on the island (Christian, Alex, Yemi, Locke). For some reason he apparently can't kill Jacob himself, but he CAN have people who haven't been 'touched by Jacob' (like Ben) kill him.

What Im not sure of is if the Others/Richard have thought theyve been working for Jacob all this time, but have actually been working for Smokey? It seems when young Ben was brought to that temple he was healed by smokey, NOT the island/Jacob. Would also explain why Ben's tumor wasn't healed.

Posted by: chombie13 | May 14, 2009 10:25 AM | Report abuse

I think we can conclude that Smokey is also the anti-Jacob. Which means that the manifestation of Alex, upon which Ben is relying, was also the anti-Jacob.

Poor Ben and poor Locke. Both were insignificant nothings in their lives looking for meaning and purpose.

They thought they had found it in Jacob, but it appears that the "Jacob" they were following was only the anti-Jacob manipulating them and making them do his evil bidding. It is the anti-Jacob who has been pulling the "big con" on everyone for the last five years.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Esau. Evil twin.

Posted by: plderrick | May 14, 2009 10:28 AM | Report abuse

I kept thinking after the show, that everything that happened to our Losties was caused by #2. As in #2 "transformed" -if you will- into Locke's Dad in that hotel and pushed him out of the window, he was the psychic that sent Claire to Los Angeles, he was the one driving the car that killed Nadia, he was Mr. Sawyer, etc.

Additionally, he told Richard to tell Locke (the real one) that Locke had to die in order to come back, opening the door for #2 to pose as Locke.

Just a thought.

Posted by: Osteph | May 14, 2009 10:28 AM | Report abuse

Amazing amazing amazing finale!! I think I need to watch it again...but for the moment, one thought:

Jacob's comment to Locke #2: well, you found your loop hole (or something like that). Makes SO much sense! He's his island roommate from the beginning, embittered that Jacob had been living god-like for centuries. Obviously has strong ties to the Egyptian theories floating around. He at some point died/was imprisoned somewhere, was existing as the smoke monster, who took form of those who have passed (Eko's brother, Ben's daughter, Danielle's shipmates, Christian and finally, more permanently, Locke). This would explain all of their negative energy/attitude and their selfishness to get what they want... Also explains how Locke2 knew everything about the island.

killer episode.

Posted by: smd520 | May 14, 2009 10:29 AM | Report abuse

I am wondering if the smoke monster is a manifestation of man #2 - and if he also can take the form of Christian Shepard. That would explain why Alex ordered Ben to do anything John Locke told him to.

Posted by: dkgannon | May 14, 2009 10:32 AM | Report abuse

The final scene of Juliet hitting the bomb reminded me of the end of Dr. Strangelove.

Posted by: justplainsam | May 14, 2009 10:33 AM | Report abuse

I noticed Man No. 2 said "We will find a loophole." Perhaps he isn't alone, but rather represents team island. I wondered if he is either the "leader" of that era, or maybe the consigliere, like Richard. (Is Richard on the Black Rock or already on the island in that opening scene?)

And speaking of the Black Rock... it hit me last night during Jacob's opening lines that the Black Rock is just Oceanic 815 a couple hundred years ago. The cycle hasn't stopped...

Posted by: Matthias13 | May 14, 2009 10:37 AM | Report abuse

This episode was so good I don't know how we can possibly wait until 2010. I almost cheered when I heard Vincent bark. I think Rose & Bernard were this episode's voice of the fan. I really thought when Jacob touched Locke after his fall out the window that he had brought him back to life. It's something about that gasp of breath. The scene between Juliet & Sawyer as she was being pulled down the hole was superb.

Aside from all the other questions that need to be answered in the final season, I wonder how would Miles have helped Bram and Ilana?

The last few weeks I've been leaning toward the Dark Tower theory but I feel like last night blew that out of the water.

Posted by: jes11 | May 14, 2009 10:38 AM | Report abuse

Oh will you too give it a rest as to the relationship questions that EVERYONE (except the show's writers) wishes would disappear forever!

James is SO over Kate . . . and especially screw-it-up-every-time Jack.

James is going to have some MAJOR hate and resentment for the both of them.

With Juliet, he was finally allowed to be his real self, James, while with Kate he will always be the old self that he, himself, even dispised, Sawyer.

The real love is James' love for Juliet, not the counterfeit love that Sawyer had for Kate.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Re: Bizzaro John Locke...

If BJL is Man #2 occupying the body of Locke, it got me wondering if Man #2 was the same ethereal entity occupying the bodies of Christian Shephard and Claire. If that's so, then one of the main things I remember about those "apparitions" was that they did not touch anyone (ex: Christian couldn't help Locke get up after he fell down the well and broke his leg).

So it got me thinking: Did John Locke ever touch anyone after he crashed back on the island (the Ajira flight)???? My memory might not serve me that well, but I can't remember any instance where Locke (or now, BJL) actually touched anyone... No handshakes, shoulder touches, or anything like that.

Agree? Disagree?

Posted by: TaluFrell | May 14, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

Eko was killed by Smokey because he had found peace within himself, and couldnt be manipulated the way Ben and John Locke were.

Posted by: chombie13 | May 14, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

My favorite quote was Lapidus. "In my experience, the people who go out of your way to tell you they're the good guys, are generally not the good guys".

Posted by: emfzlx | May 14, 2009 10:43 AM | Report abuse

Do we need to assume that Jacob is good? I thought, in the opening scene, that the dark-haired guy who wished he could kill Jacob was the "gooder" one. He was against Jacob bringing people/outsiders in to fight destoy and corrupt - which Jacob passed off as "progress." It does look like Locke is a manifestation of the dark-haired guy - but does that mean that bizarro John Locke is necessarily evil?

(aargh must go back to work!)

Posted by: leaf29 | May 14, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

So, whose side is Widmore on?
I'm thinking he is a disciple of the anti-Jacob.

Interesting idea there that perhaps the anti-Jacob was the one to cause, or set in motion, the various bad things that happened to the Losties in the outside world, while the real Jacob was fixing things.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

When they first opened but did not show the contents of the box you could guess that it was a dead Lock in there, and that man #2, aka smoke monster aka BJL was using his shape changing abilities to manipulate Ben into being the loophole which could kill Jacob.

However, Lost has me totally lost about Jacob. By paying for the lunch-box, and not having Kate deal with the consequences, did Jacob assure that she would continue to a life of crime? (and didn’t it seem that the ‘you’re not going to steal again’ line was delivered almost half smiling like Jacob knew it wasn’t true?). In the same way, my providing young James the pen, did Jacob assure that he would become the conman bent on revenge (while the other adult tried to get james to ‘move on’)?

With Jacob dressed in white and man #2 in black in the opening, I think we were supposed to make good/bad connections, but was this total misdirection? Could #2/smoke monster/destroyer of Jacob be ‘good’, while Jacob is some sadistic entity who manipulates people lives so they can ‘come, fight, destroy and corrupt’ on the island?

How long do we have to wait for next season?

Posted by: jmhii | May 14, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

I've got it: #2, or BJL, or NotLocke, whatever you want to call him/it, is the First Evil. Can take the form of anyone who's died. Isn't corporeal, so can't touch anyone. And exists just to manipulate everyone to its evil will.

LindeCuse, way to pay homage to Whedon.

Posted by: dbs3p | May 14, 2009 10:46 AM | Report abuse

Has anyone considered that Locke can both be dead and inside Jacob's chamber at the same time?

Remember from a week or two ago when Locke watched Richard Alpert remove the bullet from time traveling Locke's leg. There were two Lockes present in the same moment.

Skip to earlier this season... Locke could have been killed by Ben. That death may be permanent. But earlier in the timeline, Locke could have found a way back to the island and could have been waiting for the Losties.

Alpert said Locke had to die. He didn't say when. Once all of this is over Locke could go back to the mainland and get killed. Just to make sure the rest of the plan works out.

Posted by: ghokee | May 14, 2009 10:47 AM | Report abuse

Jacob visited some of the losties pre-island but some visits were after they returned- like Sayid and Hurley. I am more lost with each episode!

Posted by: njshore | May 14, 2009 10:47 AM | Report abuse

I thought the first hour dragged, but man did they pack a lot into the last ten minutes. The Locke reveal and the Jacob stuff were high points. The random fistfight while Sayid bled out, as well as the "I read some old scribbled notes so I am now an expert in plutonium and nuclear devices" angle, were low points.

Did NOT like Juliet changing her mind approximately four times in the span of one hour (we're leaving / we're going back / we're stopping jack / we're helping jack). I don't care how Sawyer looked at Kate. All that flakiness struck me as being out of character.

Posted by: Johnny_Zen | May 14, 2009 10:50 AM | Report abuse

I agree with the other commenters - Jacob was saving Sayid, not killing Nadia.
Also, I think Ben actually did lie in this episode, when he said the foot statue was like that when he arrived. Wasn't it, in fact, the full intact statue back then? Do we know exactly when that statue crumbled? I assumed it was during "the incident" in the 70s...

Posted by: antarc | May 14, 2009 10:54 AM | Report abuse

Jacob didn't visit/touch all of the Losties before the plane crash. He didn't visit Sayid and Hurley until after they had returned from the island.

I agree that No. 2 is the smoke monster, which is why Non-Locke wanted Ben to visit it and be judged -- so that he could tell Ben to do everything he wanted in a form that Ben believed must be followed.

Posted by: eve17 | May 14, 2009 10:54 AM | Report abuse

Great episodes.

My heart broke a little when I saw Sawyer look at Kate. It was after Rose and Bernard had achieved what he had wanted with Kate. To stay on the Island and play house. She refused and so he played with Julliet instead. That scene broke my heart so much that I was actually happy crying when Julliet was being pulled into Swan station. He did love her and she loved him. Yay- boohoo!

I think when Jacob said, that it only ends once and everything else was just progress, he was talking about end days. We have had alot of time travel/time loop discussions this year but I think the point he was making was that there will be an end (armageddon, reverse big bang) and everything up until then is building towards it. No matter how many recycles or replays or differnet groups behave the same way, we are always moving towards the end. Dead is dead and when the true end comes, then it is really over.

Also, Jack is an idiot. He thinks he can reset time and change everyone's destiny but when asked by Sawyer how he's gonna end up with Kate if he won't even know her, Jack replies, "If it's menat to be, it's meant to be."

Posted by: L8yF8 | May 14, 2009 10:56 AM | Report abuse

The 'Locke' is not Locke, but rather that first guy from the beach taking Locke's form. Which also makes me think that Jack's father and ghost Claire were not Jacob, but this other guy taking their forms. (I like the earlier suggestion that he is Esau). For some reason Esau can't become corporeal enough to kill Jacob himself, but he can become corporeal enough to pretend to be someone else, provided the someone else is already dead. It's taken him this long to successfully manipulate someone into killing Jacob for him. In the end, master manipulator Ben is the one being manipulated.

Jacob and his 'pal' seem to be meant to be the black and the white? Jacob is the 'god' figure and the other guy is the 'devil' figure?

Jacob and Ilana were somewhere in Eastern Europe, Bosnia perhaps. The language they were speaking was some sort of Slavic.

Posted by: Gonzai | May 14, 2009 10:56 AM | Report abuse

I also thought it was interesting that in Season 4 all the island shenanigans were cast as part of this massive chess game between Ben and Widmore - when, in reality, Ben and Widmore are just pawns in the massive chess game between Jacob and NotLocke.

Posted by: Johnny_Zen | May 14, 2009 10:57 AM | Report abuse

Johnny Zen -- you raise a point we have all forgotten --

WHY did Daniel write a "how to" manual for detonating the bomb?

Did he know that he was going to be killed, so that he would need to leave instructions for someone else to do it?

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 10:58 AM | Report abuse

"It only ends once. Anything before that is just progress."

Isn't this just a more eloquent way of saying "whatever happened happened" and "done is done"?

I think this has meaning both in the Lost universe and the real world. We're all moving toward some defined end-point, every action we take (whether we're going back in time to try and 'fix' things or just sitting back and waiting for a moment to arise) gets us another step closer to this end-point.

Posted by: distance88 | May 14, 2009 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, one more thing. I think Ben is the loophole. Richard said he would lose his innocence when he was cured. I think only someone with no innocence could kill Jacob. Kind of an opposite original sin type of thing. We are all born innocent and no innocent creature could kill Jacob.

Posted by: L8yF8 | May 14, 2009 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Guy #2 would appear to be Esau, but I more importantly I think he was living in the cabin and asked Locke for help back in season 3. When Ilana and her crew showed up, they noticed the ash was broken. This kept BJL a prisoner on the island and incapable of killing Jacob. He manipulated Locke into believing he needed help.

Posted by: billh1 | May 14, 2009 11:01 AM | Report abuse

ooyah32 is on fire. Great points, many things I've never thought of, and I agree with everything except one item.

Jen and Liz, thanks as usual, but I agree with many here who saw Jacob saving Sayid, not killing Nadia.

Good points ooyah and others on the contrast between Jacob and his Rival. Also note that now we see Jacob does not uses false guises. He appears as himself. The Rival is a liar and a deceiver. More eveidence yet that one truly is better than the other. And of course Jacob wants to share (the Island) with other people, whereas the Rival is selfish. Jen and Liz, I think you dropped the ball there if you saw the writers as approving of the Rival's position.

jmhii, I don't see Jacob as having encouraged little Kate toward crime by helping her once. He did warn her not to steal. He gave her another chance; the fact that she blew it doesn't invalidate his policy of generosity and forgiveness.

I think Claire has been living in the cabin. If she's just another manifestation of the smoke monster / Jacob's Rival, then what would be the point of real Locke having found her hanging out with Christian (whom we can now say seems likely to be a Rival doppelganger like fake Locke is)? I doubt that Rival needs to simultaneously animate TWO fakes, Christian and Claire, to hang out with each other. So Claire is real and alive.

ooyah32, unfortunately I think you're wrong about stupid and violent Sawyer and stupid and violent Kate. They have a lot of fans as a couple and we're bound to see more stupid violent romance next year.

Posted by: UniqueID | May 14, 2009 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Liz & Jen,
Nothing about getting another view of the statue, this time with more profile?

There seem to be some fans who feel that it definitely had a crocodile head (Sobek), whereas I was certain it was a hippo head (Taweret) when I was watching, probably because I'd bought into that fertility goddess theory earlier on this season. I'm now less confident after seeing a screen cap. Maybe Lindecuse is just mashing up Egyptian/ancient deities to screw with my mind.

What did you two see?

Posted by: gfl20010 | May 14, 2009 11:06 AM | Report abuse

Other than the Jacob vs. #2 storyline, I wasn't thrilled with the episode. In previous season finales we have seen a light turn on in the hatch, Pennie picking up a magnetic signal while searching for Desmond, the Jack-Kate flash forward. I didn't think anything in this episode led to a comparable revelation.

For next year, I am most interested in knowing more about the loophole. At what point did Jacob realize #2 had found the loophole? Is the loophole similar or related to Widmore "changing the rules" on Ben? How does Jacob define progress and what is the end: Juliet detonating the nuc, non-John killing him, or something we have yet to see?

Posted by: cbbjr | May 14, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

L8yF8 -- I like that too.

When the anti-Jacob says, "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same," he is speaking of individual endings and history repeating itself.

When Jacob responds, "It only ends once, every thing before that is progress," he is not speaking about individual endings, but THE end.

That makes a lot more sense.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Not-John-Locke never answered Ben's question about why he wanted Ben to kill Jacob. Not-Locke turned it around to ask how could Ben NOT want to kill Jacob. Um, maybe because Jacob may not have been responsible for all the bad things that happened to Ben? Ever consider that, hmmmm? Who's manipulating whom? Also, it's clear that the "loophole" is that while not-Locke couldn't kill Jacob himself--which he has apparently tried, unsuccessfully, many times--he finally figured out that he could get SOMEBODY ELSE to do it.

BTW poor John Locke, he really is dead, and he really was set up. He didn't send himself off the island to die, somebody else did.

Posted by: MrDarwin | May 14, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

My favorite quote was Lapidus's "terrific".

Posted by: Dr_Bob | May 14, 2009 11:08 AM | Report abuse

Perhaps we can think of Jacob and man #2 not as good and evil but as embodiments of destiny and free will respectively. That either of them participate in the deaths of the humans in their space is immaterial.

Posted by: cb201 | May 14, 2009 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Perhaps we can think of Jacob and man #2 not as good and evil but as embodiments of destiny and free will respectively. That either of them participate in the deaths of the humans in their space is immaterial.

Posted by: cb201 | May 14, 2009 11:11 AM | Report abuse

UniqueID -- I was thinking about agreeing with the idea from some others that the Island was some kind of Narnia, but now you have me thinking that the Island is actually a representation of Earth itself.

The Creator/Weaver Jacob in White, he who saves, wants to share the Island/Earth and give life, while the Deceiver/Father of Lies/Adversary anti-Jacob in Black, selfishly wants it all for himself and seeks to destroy.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 11:12 AM | Report abuse

Rewatching the opening scene, it seemed very Job-like to me, esp when talking about trying to prove each other wrong. Man #2 seems to think humans only end up corrupting and ruining nature, whereas Jacob has faith in humanity (and intervenes in their lives to help). Between Man#2's desire to kill Jacob, his wearing black, and the seeming taking the form of John Locke, he had a very devil-like quality to him.

Posted by: Dr_Bob | May 14, 2009 11:14 AM | Report abuse

gfl20010, I'm going with Sobek. Wikipedia says you prayed to him so you wouldn't get eated by crocodiles, but also this which sounds fairly Jacob-esque:

"Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part ..."

Posted by: Johnny_Zen | May 14, 2009 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Another extremely subtle thing -- we learned where Kate's toy plane came from. Her friend was playing with it in the flashback, so she'd certainly see it is something nostalgic after he dies years in the future.

Posted by: jf76 | May 14, 2009 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Man #2 is clearly not Esau. Esau was not a bad guy (actually, it was Jacob who wronger Esau). He was just on the dumb side.

Posted by: floof | May 14, 2009 11:16 AM | Report abuse

Maybe wishful thinking, but if they do go back to the plane, and remember what happened previously, then my man Sawyer has a bautiful Island lady who doesn't know he exists but is just waiting to be rescued and brought home to her sister and nephew. Kate can have Jack after she server her time.

Posted by: L8yF8 | May 14, 2009 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Regarding who was occupying the cabin, I assumed it was Rose & Bernard. (BTW wasn't that a painting of a dog in the shack?) But how on earth did they (plus a dog!) evade both the Dharmites and the Others for 3 years?

Posted by: MrDarwin | May 14, 2009 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Like the ex-Locke said when he saw the Swan Dharma training tape, "we're going to have to watch this again."

There is so much packed into this. So many little tid-bits. Like in the very beginning, when Jacob was cooking a fish on the shore. The first thought that popped into my head was the scene at the end of the Gospel of John when the resurrected Jesus is cooking a fish at a fire on the shore while the Apostles are out at sea.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 11:23 AM | Report abuse

Jacob is the human manifestation of "Sobek," the Egyptian crocodile-headed deity that is both a creator god, and whose mission is to undo evil. This, i think, explains his interaction with each of the characters at formative/determinative times in their lives. Can't wait to learn what "Man #2's name is," but he's some kind of Satan, tempter, trickster, etc.. don't know what the Egyptian counterpart is. You need the interaction/struggle of good vs. evil to have life. Otherwise, everything is flat. People struggle, make choices with limited information and create conseqences. It was interesting last night to see Ben as a tragic figure (my wife's observation). He reminded me of Job, seeking to be righteous, but feeling abandoned by God. In the end, he is able to accuse this divine power face-to-face for the neglect, and is tricked by #2, in the guise of Locke, into attacking and trying to kill what he once served. The master manipulator is the one who's been manipulated his whole life. Perhaps Jacob knew all about this, and the season's "ending" will undo the evil done to Sobek. Before the flash of light, Sobek tells #2 "they're coming." I wonder who they are. the ones who put Sobek and #2 there to start with?

Posted by: Tracy4 | May 14, 2009 11:24 AM | Report abuse

I'm glad to see that "the game" is potentially much bigger and more important than just between Ben and Widmore, something I suspected. Given the scope of this show, it's understandable that it will basically boil down to something with a more mythic feel.

I do wonder about Jacob and Esau -- who is good and who is bad? Did Jacob want folks to come to the island and if so, is it for "progress?" Is that really their destiny?

Perhaps Jacob, recognizing their potential, actually did not want these people to come to the island, thus some of the conflicting messages to Kate, to Sayid, and to Sun/Jin. Perhaps Esau is the one that needs them and their destiny is in destroying this place?

Guess a lot of this depends on what happens with time travel -- how many of the flashbacks last night are/were impacted by the explosion? What loop are we in? Good stuff.

Posted by: teamn | May 14, 2009 11:24 AM | Report abuse

Liz: And what did Jacob mean when he replied to that statement with, "It only ends once. Anything before that is just progress." I have to admit that was a stumper for me....
I think this is all about free will and redemption. It's not over till it's over, and until then, we can still get it right, learn from our mistakes, make the choice to not '...fight, destroy, and corrupt".

Posted by: PatrickinReston | May 14, 2009 11:26 AM | Report abuse

My husband pointed out that the entwined bodies found in an earlier season ("Adam and Eve") may well be Rose and Bernard.

Posted by: sunfleck | May 14, 2009 11:27 AM | Report abuse

ooyah32, Jacob's death is indeed reminiscent of Aslan's. And it's perhaps even more reminiscent of Ben Kenobi's. Pure guessing here, but I think that although Jacob knows he can't defeat his Rival, there's a potential successor who can, and Jacob needs to sacrifice himself to clear the way for this successor. Not an original idea or device, obviously.

cb201, interesting observation that the dichotomy perhaps isn't or isn't only between good and evil but between destiny / free will. That's what Miles and Daniel and Hurley and Hawking, among others, have been arguing all during this season (note BTW how no one pays attention to Miles's quite reasonable question!)

Another way of expressing the dichotomy is between cyclical time and linear time. Most ancient cultures and religions subscribed to the cyclical POV. The Jews were noteworthy in believing in linear time. For those familiar with ancient Egyptian culture and mythology, which side would they have fallen on?

Posted by: UniqueID | May 14, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

Lindytx said:

"There is a bit of a paradox for the viewer. Because we are viewing these separate plotlines concurrently, we have a sense that they are occurring at the same "time" (at least our consciousness of time)(even though separated by 30 years). So they present the question of interrelatedness: if Jacob is killed in 2007, will that affect the Losties who are in 1977? If Jack's explosion of the nuclear device prevents the Hatch, will that affect the Jacob confrotation in 2007, including Ben, pseudo Locke, Sun? The 1977 events would seem likely to affect 2007, as they are intended to modify the future, so that Locke and Sun and Lapidus (and Liana and her crew) would not have come to the island at all if Oceanic had never crashed there. But nevertheless we have a feeling that the 2 plotlines converge and affect each other, because they are affecting us as the viewer."

I think this plot tool was genius. Each group was still in the same time progression, just in different years. "They are coming," Jacob says right before the cutaway to Juliet beating on the bomb. Look at it as both climactic events were taking place simultaneously for the Losties in their "personal timeline" even though some were in 2007 and some were in 1977.

I was puzzled by some of the dialogue about time travel recently, where people (i.e., Hurley) had to ask how they had become uncoupled from time. As many mentioned, it did seem kind of hackneyed. But running two concurrent plot lines since the Flight 316 crash, separated only by one dimension, was as good an answer as Miles' to Hugo. And it served as a constant reminder that everyone was moving to some sort of important fate shared by all the Losties.

Brilliant storytelling, absolutely brilliant!

Posted by: megman | May 14, 2009 11:32 AM | Report abuse

Is there a screenshot showing the Statue from the front? My friend and I are arguing about whether this is Sobek or Anubis. It seemed pretty clear that it had a crocodile head to me, but I can't find a pic.

Posted by: floof | May 14, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

While a return to S1 would be a nice circle for the show to close in its last season, ENOUGH with the love circle/square/whatever.
Kate is not a love to hate character for me, she's just pure annoyance and waste of screen time, and I find it hard to believe that she inspires all this years-long longing and pain and inspiration to bomb islands.

If the J-S-K dynamic is central in the future it will be such a disappointment, because there are so many other relationships episodes could explore, romantic and not.

Posted by: peli | May 14, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

Man #2s warnings against corruption totally reminded me of Limbaugh/Cheney style purity.

Posted by: HardyW | May 14, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Regarding the cabin, Rose and Bernard ended up in 1974. If they spent any time in the cabin, it was between then and 1977. Ilana and her people get there in 2007. I'm not saying the signs of people living there couldn't be 30+ years old, but there's nothing that all that points to Rose / Bernard. It would be just as good a guess to say that Phil used to crash there while he was supposed to be out patrolling the jungle, or that Charles and Eloise used to meet there.

And why would Rose/Bernard leave a hanging of the foot?

Posted by: UniqueID | May 14, 2009 11:37 AM | Report abuse

I'm with Miles.

Jack caused the incident, he didn't prevent it. But then again, Jack caused it because he had always caused it. What was, was. What happened, happened.

As the Tralfamadorians say, the moment is structured that way.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 11:38 AM | Report abuse

What a beautiful, intense episode.

Rose and Bernard = Adam and Eve

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus (or taxi)
Trying to make his way home

Posted by: american_demeter | May 14, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

I don't think Juliet is dead. She did an abdomen pat that made it seem like she was pregnant.

Posted by: airhen | May 14, 2009 11:40 AM | Report abuse

I'm pretty sure that the Rose/Bernard retirement home is different from "Jacob's" cabin (which was probably actually the anti-Jacob's prison, what with the ash-line surrounding it), which was built by Horace.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 11:41 AM | Report abuse

"it hit me last night during Jacob's opening lines that the Black Rock is just Oceanic 815 a couple hundred years ago. The cycle hasn't stopped..."

Woah, that hadn't hit me until just now. Is it going to keep cycling through, next one will be a crash-landing of a geosynchronous space station node?

Posted by: HardyW | May 14, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

"This episode was so good I don't know how we can possibly wait until 2010. I almost cheered when I heard Vincent bark."

Me, too!

I dont' think this is too spoilery, because it's tongue in cheek thing that LindeCuse said, but if you don't want to read it, stop now.

The other day I read an interview with them. The interviewer said everyone's interested in Vincent. LindeCuse said that even if they kill every character off at the end of the series, Vincent will survive. I can now watch the rest of the show in peace. Love those big goofy labs!!! :)

Posted by: eet7e | May 14, 2009 11:48 AM | Report abuse

For me the best quote ever was Jacob's "What about you?" to Ben. Up until this point its been all about Ben. That was the perfect repsonse from Jacob to get the nedded result.

Posted by: cuestarey | May 14, 2009 11:55 AM | Report abuse

I agree with the idea that Smokey was created by the Incident. We've never seen any evidence that it existed before 1977, and last night when everything metallic was being pulled into the hole, there was a ratcheting sound at one point that really reminded me of the sound Smokey makes--seemed like a clue to me.

Posted by: moonwatcher13 | May 14, 2009 11:56 AM | Report abuse

OK, one thing: if smokey/fake cabin Jacob/Christian are all Man #2, how did Ricardus fall down on the job so far as to let Ben be completely taken in by Jacob's enemy?

Posted by: HardyW | May 14, 2009 12:00 PM | Report abuse

We're fairly certain that Richard works for Jacob and not Jacob's adversary, right? But it seems like the interior of the island, specifically the temple, is probably relegated to the adversary (hence Smokey being there). So what happened with young Ben? He still hasn't showed up since Richard sent him down to wherever he sent him.

Posted by: jf76 | May 14, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

I think one way of obtaining a clue as to what really happened in the end of the finale is to ask the question: What effect would such a massive electromagnetic source have on the hydrogen atoms that are the crux of the bomb's destructive capability? Could it either diminish or increase the effects? Any science geeks out there to provide insight on this?

Posted by: daward74 | May 14, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

I came across this link on Wikipedia just now:

Very interesting, since it ties weaving together with the eye that was flashed at the end of the episode.

Posted by: hiberniantears | May 14, 2009 12:07 PM | Report abuse

I'm still not sure what to make of Richard. The whole thing with bringing young Ben to the smoke monster's temple to be healed has me believing that he was the only one of the Others who really knew whose bidding they were doing (Smokey's), and that his purpose was to essentially guide the various leaders into carrying out the will of Man#2 (under the guise that they were working for Jacob).

Posted by: chombie13 | May 14, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

floof, I do not think there is a screenshot from the front, because I believe that's the first and only time we've seen the head of that statue. FWIW I watched the opening twice and it did look like a crocadile head to me too.

Posted by: garton | May 14, 2009 12:15 PM | Report abuse

Read your Dante!

Everyone posits that Jacob is a force for good, and Bizarro John Locke/Jacob's nemesis is a force for evil. I'm not so sure.

Jacob corrupted in the following ways:

1. Kate became a thief (greed)
2. Sawyer became wrathful but eventually just obsessed with material value (gluttony - well, arguably a bunch)
3. Jack didn't reconcile with his father (pride)
4. Locke became despondent and obsessive (acedia/discouragement)
5. Hurley got rich (extravagance? or at least gave him a guitar)
6. Sun had doubts and eventually an affair (fornication)
7. Sayyid turned bat**** crazy and became an assassin (wrath)

I admit pegging some to the right deadly sin is difficult, but you gotta love the coincidence of seven, right? Right?

Oh. And if BJL can change forms, what's to keep Jacob from having done the same?

Posted by: Boston11 | May 14, 2009 12:16 PM | Report abuse

daward, the following won't healp much directly. I don't know much about atomic weapons either, but I do know this much: A 1954-style hydrogen bomb like Jughead is a fusion weapon. Its main destructive power come from the fusion of hydrogen (2H and 3H) into helium.

However, it takes such intense heat and pressure to achieve this fusion that it requires first a different nuclear explosion, sepcifically an explosion created by the fission of a uranium or plutonium based atomic detonator.

IOW, an H-bomb explodes after the A-bomb inside it first explodes.

So what I think Daniel was talking about wasn't precisely exploding a hydrogen bomb under the anomaly as he put it, but using the fission bomb within the hydrogen bomb. Even today there are no easily portable fusion weapons - all suitcase nukes and the like are fission weapons less powerful than the Hiroshima bomb - so anything you can usefully take from a 1954 H-bomb and carry around in your backpack can only be a fission weapon. And of course they wouldn't have made Jughead weigh 20 tons to begin with if the only part you really needed for the full H-bomb experience weighed 50 pounds!

Now none of that addresses your basic question, and as I said I am no expert. Your original question still remains for those with technical knowledge: we know Daniel thought the nuke could confine the electromagnetic anomaly, but what about the reverse? What effect will the anomaly have on a nuke?

Posted by: UniqueID | May 14, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

I believe that in the first episode of the final season they will all open their eyes and be right back in season one when the plane crashed. now THAT would be awesome.

Posted by: az_zulu | May 14, 2009 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Help me out, folks...

During the 8:00 hour, I learned something new that I didn't know before. And now I can't remember what it was! Did anybody else get some new info from that recap?

Posted by: bluesette01 | May 14, 2009 12:25 PM | Report abuse

"I think one way of obtaining a clue as to what really happened in the end of the finale is to ask the question: What effect would such a massive electromagnetic source have on the hydrogen atoms that are the crux of the bomb's destructive capability?"

Actually, all Jack brought to the Swan was the plutonium core [detonator] of the hydrogen bomb. No hydrogen.

Posted by: thrh | May 14, 2009 12:27 PM | Report abuse

I don't know which I'm going to miss more, the show or this wrap-up. Honestly, reading the Wash. Post website has become an important part of the Lost routine for me.

First off, I think we can at least give a Biblical code name to Man #2 (and BJL): "Esau." I can't remember if that name has actually cropped up in the series, but it makes sense.

Second, I think there's a good case to be made that Esau has been behind a lot of the actions we thought were Jacob's. Namely, based on Ilana's dialog, Esau inhabited the cabin for quite some time. In fact, it may be Esau's cabin, not Jacob's. The picture of the statue may indicate where Esau's gone, not Jacob. That would mean that the line of ash was to keep Esau in a sort of jail. And it would be Esau who appeared to Locke (and not Ben). Esau who says "help me." And, as we now know, it's Esau who sends Locke back to the real world with the instructions to round up the O6 and then die -- all so he can settle scores with Jacob. Locke's mission was Esau's plan.

Third, as is usual on this series, it's not entirely clear what we should make of Jacob. Kind of the inverse of Widmore, where our first impressions were profoundly negative (shabby treatment of Desmond) but then got more positive (helping Locke, the science team). Jacob looks friendly and seems to be helping young Kate and Sawyer and Locke. But his actions are mostly ambiguous. He saves Kate from punishment -- but that punishment might have actually set her (or her mother) straight. He gives Sawyer the pen he needs to finish that letter and dedicate himself to a life of hate. He heals Locke, but only part-way (Locke looked pretty dead to me when Jacob walked up to him). You guys note Nadia -- does he kill Nadia or save Sayid? Either way, Sayid survives in torment and becomes an assassin. As Sayid notes at the end, he wasn't really "saved." (That I thought was a great double-entendre BTW -- it's clear to me Sayid wasn't just talking about his bullet wound.) His only real positive interaction is with Hugo. Sidenote, I'm pretty certain that's Charlie guitar.

And then there's his next-to-last line: "What about you?" Sort of a cryptic, and seemingly unfeeling, response to Ben's inquiry. It sort of convinced me that Ben had a point.

See you all next year!

Posted by: charodon | May 14, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

I thought of the song by Shriekback, Everything That Rises Must Converge, when I saw the book title. Here are the lyrics:

Honour among thieves, my crackling clothes
They cover me like leaves, roll up a sleeve and hold my hand
She's saying I, ai no corrida
Kick up the soil, spoil a pattern in the sand
He's saying me, I don't believe you
But then he can't tell the water from the land

And it's blue blue blue
A colour and a surge
Everything that rises must converge
She says one day soon
You and I will merge
Everything that rises must converge

Nothing is for free the story goes
You hear it and believe, now don't you grieve or look behind
He's saying why, why do we do this?
This is the very thing that's preying on his mind

And she don't know which way to go
She says if you find it darling let me know
And he says well, this could be so
Says I'm a car crash, now tell me baby does it show

And it's blue blue blue
A colour and a surge
Everything that rises must converge
She says one day soon
You and I will merge
Everything that rises must converge

Posted by: AmericanBadOZ | May 14, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

When Richard visited Locke as a child and had him choose items, he chose the compass, the vial of sand, and the knife, right? The vial of sand was the stuff that the cabin is surrounded with, right? Was it the same knife that NotLocke gave to Ben to kill Jacob? I don't think Richard is on Jacob's side or the "other" side -- I think he's just and advisor. He'll push back a little, but ultimately he'll answer any question or do whatever is asked of him.

Posted by: tig_coili | May 14, 2009 12:39 PM | Report abuse

What I want to know is Who built the donkey wheel? It was there before the Incident because Dr. Chang saw it or a shadow of it. Was it the same people who built the statue? Was the island at some point close enough to Egypt that they could have sailed over and established a colony there? Has Jacob always been able to go off island, if so can he time travel also? If so maybe he wanted lists so that he could go back and visit the people who had already landed on the island and visit them as children or at some other pivotal point in time. You guys are assuming Jacob has been plotting this all along, but the first scene implies that he is a kind of let-man-do-what-they-do kind of guy, maybe he waits to see who is lured in, then goes back to see what he can find out about them in their past. And who made these rules that Jacob/Esau and Ben/Widmore have to follow anyway?

Posted by: bf0068 | May 14, 2009 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Good call, Boston. I had totally forgot my divine comedy, even though it was sitting on my bookshelf directly in front of me during last night's episode.

Also good call to whomever said that it could be the Anti-Jacob being kept in the cabin surrounded by ash. That's why Ilana was so upset when she saw the line was broken.

I originally thought "Jacob's" cabin was the one Rose and Bernard had, too, but the I remembered the scene where Horace appeared to Hurley while he was building a cabin, and Rose & Bernard's cabin was surrounded by much more forest - much more Swiss Family Robinson - while Jacob's seemed to be in more of a clearing. I keep going back and forth about it.

Favorite line:
"We're retired." Reminded me of my parents.

Posted by: eet7e | May 14, 2009 12:44 PM | Report abuse

Fake Locke is corporeal -- he touched Ben a couple times on the beach last night, at least. Christian is also corporeal, having held Aaron and given Sun the photo of the Dharmies

Posted by: jamesriver229 | May 14, 2009 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and the Eye? Jack, first scene of the series. That's my guess.

Posted by: eet7e | May 14, 2009 12:50 PM | Report abuse

A few thoughts from last night's killer episode:

- The final scene where Hurley, Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet pulled up with guns blazing in the Dharma van at the Swan just as Jack was toast was very reminiscent of the final Star Wars scene with Han Solo coming to Luke's defense: "You're all clear, kid, now let's blow this thing and go home!"

- I have to wonder what difference there is between what Juliet did in setting off the bomb, and what Desmond did when he turned the failsafe key after the "System Failure." Perhaps they were the same thing, and in the pre-O6 1977, after the original Incident, Chang and Radzinsky determine that if they ever lose control of the EM energy again, the only way to negate it is through detonating a thermo-nuke device, and thus create the failsafe. If this is the case, then perhaps Juliet will end up wandering on the island in the buff (yay!) with crazy time premonitions.

- Ben was never selected by Jacob and assumed the role of leader of the Others for himself. This is why Jacob never paid him any attention. Ben only came to the Island because his father joined the Dharma Initiative and then he discovered the Others and wanted to be with them instead of DI. Ben then eventually usurped Widmore's (and Eloise's) control of the Others, but we still don't know Widmore's/Eloise's backstory - how did they get to the Island - were they selected by Jacob?

Just a few musings as I continue to wrap my head around everything that was thrown at us last night.

Posted by: mo7290 | May 14, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Also, did we figure out who Juliet shot in the second canoe? Presumably that woulda happened "by now," right? Hmmm.

Posted by: jamesriver229 | May 14, 2009 12:56 PM | Report abuse

re: whether Richard is with Jacob or #2.

I don't know that this tells us anything either way, but I think it's interesting to remember that Richard said that he's "this way [ageless] because of Jacob." So, whether becoming that way that was a gift from a benevolent god/Good being/whatever or a punishment from an enemy/Evil being I don't know...

Posted by: AmberGale | May 14, 2009 12:59 PM | Report abuse

Boston11, I like your list and am totally in agreement that Jacob's interactions with the Losties are all ambiguous -- well, mostly ambiguous. There's a problem with #5: "Hurley got rich (extravagance? or at least gave him a guitar)." Hurley is clearly being released from jail after Sayid killed 3 guys with dart guns, immediately before boarding Ajira 316. I.e., well after he won the lottery. It's not clear what if anything is negative about Jacob's interaction with him, unless convincing him to board the plane is negative, but Hugo had already come to the conclusion that they needed to go back.

Posted by: charodon | May 14, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

I competely agree with your observations about the bleeding Sayid - totally bizarre. Kate, Juliet, Miles, and Hurley are all standing around the side of the van like they're at the water cooler in the office while Jin is tearing up what look like full length window curtains and stuffing them into Sayid's gut. Sayid, who apparently was the mastermind of Sadaam's secret nuclear weapons program, reconfigures the plutonium core to work like a hand grenade while he's at death's door and returns to his spot up against the back of the van with his eyes rolling back in his head. When Jack, Sawyer and Juliet come sauntering back to the van following the rumble in the jungle, Miles is laying odds as to whether or not Sayid is going to make it. Very touching.

Posted by: WednesdaysChild | May 14, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

As for Jacob 'saving' Sayid, what show were you watching?

Jacob stopped Sayid; Nadia stopped to turn around and talk to the stopped Sayid, and was run over a few seconds later. If this was an accident, then Nadia would have been past the point of impact had she not stopped, as would Sayid if he'd been with her, and they would have safely crossed the street.

Besides, couldn't Jacob have stopped them both? Duh!

While this could have been an accident, it looked like a hit to me, as Ben told Sayid it was. But, if so, the hit was not on Sayid, as he was clearly not the target; it was a hit on Nadia. And, if a hit, then Jacob had to have set it up by stopping Sayid and letting Nadia have some distance from Sayid.

So, hit or accident, it sure seemed to me that Jacob caused Nadia's death.

Posted by: AmericanBadOZ | May 14, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

I loved the first scene too--it reminded me of the Book of Job, with God and the Devil (or whatever name he went by back then) betting over how strong man's faith is. (Oldest book in the Bible, I've read).

I disagree about Jacob killing Nadia--could we not also look at it as saving Sayid? Perhaps that crazy/homicidal driver would've gotten them both, otherwise.

That said, Jacob's not clearly always a benign influence--my favorite scene was his with young Sawyer, giving him a pen right before he got good advice to drop his hatred. I got the feeling he might have if that pen hadn't just arrived to finish the letter, and then he started his conning career by lying to that helpful man.

On the lame side--uh, given the fancy door into the shadow of the foot, did anyone else find it weird he could see the sky? If that was the real sky, it would mean all you hadda do to get in was climb atop the base...but perhaps I'm being too picky?

Posted by: anotherex-reader | May 14, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

A few comments:

Christian summed up Jack in a nutshell when he said just before Jack met Jacob at the vending machine, "I think you got it wrong about who doesn't believe in you". He of course was trying to point out that Jack's problem has always been that he didn't believe in himself. I think his determination with the bomb is manifestation, finally, of his change in character. And I'm pretty sure that vending machine is now in my office breakroom.

Favorite line from Miles- "Glad you thought this through".

I am very confused about Locke, NotLocke. NotLocke being Essau/Man#2 or whatever we call him, would explain why Locke seemed to suddenly know so much. But he still seemed to be genuinely Locke as well, with all his mannerisms, personality, and memories. Found it interesting that Locke fell out of the box in a fetal position. Is that on purpose or bad directing. He was in a casket and stiff as a board. No way he would bend like that. I'm sure there is much more to this than we think.

And what I really would like to know 1st episode season 6, is what really happened to Claire. Will we get a flashback?

And one more thing....Jacob is HOT!

Posted by: hodie | May 14, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

i assumed the people who had been inhabiting the cabin (and left the note - which i actually saw as a picture of a golden retriever but may have been imagining to support my theory) were rose and bernard who took up shop there in 1977 (and possibly later went to the caves to die - those are the two bodies).

i see smoky as a the puppet-master-like being that can take the bodily forms of the dead. and that it is now Locke.

so if bad smoky is the evil-doer and touchy jacob is the force of good, and they are forced to live together on a island for all time - but cannot eliminate one another (well ok - until now) - perhaps this is indeed purgatory with god and the devil as actual participants fighting for the souls of those who pass through.

there is only one end - everything up to that is just progress (sounds like something god would say)

Posted by: jlh815 | May 14, 2009 1:20 PM | Report abuse

I had a hard time taking Jacob seriously. did anyone notice that he was the loser husband of Rita in Dexter? I kept seeing him in that role instead of as Jacob (he inhabited the other role in all of its loser heroin addict bully glory!)

Posted by: caroleg1 | May 14, 2009 1:29 PM | Report abuse

I'm very puzzled about why Ben was allowed to be leader for so long if Jacob seemingly did not approve of him. Just thinking out loud here...

1) We know at least that Widmore, Eloise (and maybe I'm wrong here, but is this not what RIchard said when he hit Eloise over the head? That she was the leader and although she'd be made at him when she woke up, better her mad than dead?), Ben, and now Locke have all been "appointed" leaders of the tribe that Richard is with, yet besides Locke, I don't believe we know HOW exactly the other three become leaders? Were they chosen by Jacob? Because we THOUGHT Locke was chosen by Jacob when Ben brought him to the cabin, and yet now we know Ben never talked or saw Jacob, and the voice Locke heard in the cabin perhaps could have even been the Anti-Jacob's? So has Jacob ever chosen the leader of Richard's people or does he stay out of it and let things happen as they happen?

2) Perhaps Jacob was setting up Ben all along to kill him for a greater purpose? Hence he allowed him to be leader yet ignored him for his entire time there. While in the end he gave Ben a choice to kill him or not, his question (though wise) "What about you?" certainly would only further enrage and almost taunt Ben to kill him. I do think Jacob IS the highest power on whatever side he's on (I believe it's for good), and that his "death" will only make him stronger/more powerful.

Posted by: garton | May 14, 2009 1:33 PM | Report abuse

was Locke ever appointed leader of the others?

wasnt it man#2 as BJL who set in motion the process of him being killed (BJL told richard to tell real JL that he would have to die to get everyone back on the island; BJL wanted JL dead so he could take JL form!)

I cant remember but was it the same process for being appointed leader of the others?

now my head is hurting

Posted by: jmhii | May 14, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

OK, let's work on Jacob and "Esau". I'm actually figuring this out as I type. First, we know from the first scene that Jacob and Esau have been having a debate a long time. The debate seems to be about whether the future can be changed -- the very same debate fans have been having for all of Season 5. Esau says, "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same." I.e., inviting humans to the island always ends in disaster -- humans are fated to be divided by conflict. Jacob's view is different -- that even if several attempts have failed, that doesn't rule out the possibility of ultimate success, which will end the cycle: "It only ends once. Everything before that is progress."

Esau believes in destiny, Jacob believes that people have a choice. It's Jack vs. Locke, Daniel vs. Eloise, constants vs. variables. It's the whole theme of the show, and I suspect this conflict (or "war") will be the subject of Season 6.

That just leaves up in the air what they are fighting over. What's "success" for Jacob? Success in harnessing the Island's power for peaceful ends? It's not clear.

Second, there's these weird rules that govern Jacob and Esau, one of which is apparently that they can't kill each other. They do seem to mirror the rules Ben referred to governing him and Widmore, which Widmore somehow "changed." We don't know much about the rules (such as, who enforces them?), but we do know a little bit about Esau's "loophole." It seems to involve either Esau getting into the statue, or Ben getting into the statue. Richard states one "rule," which is that only the leader of the hostiles can seek an audience with Jacob. I'm running out of facts at this point, but my guess here is that the loophole is that Locke could have gotten entrance to the statue, but not Ben for some reason; Esau manages to manipulate this by posing as Locke and bringing Ben in with him. Possibly Jacob can only be killed by someone inside the statue (except Esau, or he wouldn't need Ben at all). Jacob tells Ben he has a choice, but he winds up fulfilling his destiny, which would seem to make the score at this point Esau 1, Jacob 0.

Posted by: charodon | May 14, 2009 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Did you guys forget that the other person occupying the cabin was Christian? Maybe #2 turned into Christian for one of his prior (or current) loophole searching expeditions?

Posted by: racimperman | May 14, 2009 1:46 PM | Report abuse

"Found it interesting that Locke fell out of the box in a fetal position. Is that on purpose or bad directing. He was in a casket and stiff as a board. No way he would bend like that."

Rigor mortis comes and then goes, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Posted by: HardyW | May 14, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

UniqueID - rather than a mini-nuke, more likely what Sayid extracted and Jack used was probably more like a dirty bomb -- too little to initiate a fission reaction, but enough fissionable material to contaminate the area. Which would be a really bad idea in an area of "exotic matter."

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Did John want Ben to kill Jacob so Ben could finally get his reward--the new owner of the island--for all of eternity? Maybe there needs to be two co-owners and Ben is the best "candidate" (a loaded word I know)

Posted by: racimperman | May 14, 2009 1:49 PM | Report abuse

TaluFrell, regarding Locke touching anyone since he got back, that would explain why he asked Richard to help time-travel-locke with his bullet, and explain why he needed Ben to get stabby.

Posted by: racimperman | May 14, 2009 1:54 PM | Report abuse

Bizarro-John-Locke seemed surprised when Ben said he(Ben) would do whatever Locke told him to because Smokey/deadAlex ordered him to. If that was genuine, it would imply that Smokey and BJL are NOT both manifestations Man#2.

Posted by: emfzlx | May 14, 2009 1:58 PM | Report abuse

I'm not buying the Esau thing. I'm sticking with egyptian/greek/roman gods. Jacob is one, Man#2 is one, Richardus is one (what kinda name is Richardus???).

Now Locke clearly is not Locke. I believe he is smokey since it seemed obvious when Locke took Ben to be judged, Locke excused himself to find some rope to pull Ben out after the floor collapsed, Ben meets smokey, smokey disappeared and THEN Locke came back. I think smokey has also been Christian and possibly Yemi and maybe even wet-Walt. And as non-Locke said, "you wouldn't believe what I had to do to make it" [the loophole].

And Jacob's mentioning of "here they come" when the Black Rock appeared indicates they've been through this before, which is also referred to as only one ending with everythig else being progress, the progress of human development.

But based on Jacob's actions he worked to get the Lostees to the island, and even back to the island on the Ajira flight. That has led to the nuke going off under the Swan. This may be what Jacob wanted and in a way has already won. But that was in 1977 and along another time loop. The People in 2007 are on a different time loop. Sorta like going back 10 minutes and not writing this. There would be two versions of history. The universe would need to correct. I think we'll see in season 6 that the universe slowly corrects with, at the season 6 finale, flight 815 arrives safe in LA, with Jack asking Kate out, Sawyer hooking back up with the mother of his kid, Juliet having a normal life, and Hurley enjoying his millions won with numbers that just "came into his head".

And Jacob went out of his way to get Illana to work for him but Illana has nothing to do with events leading up to Jacob being stabbed. Illana will finish Jacob's plan. I agree with the Obywan Kanobi analogy. Non-Locke thinks he has won as Darth did when he "killed" Kanobi. But he is wrong as the future will show.

Oh, and the statue may have been blown away by the nuke, but I'm thinking that the energy sucked in the nuke as it was sucking everything else in but the nuke sealed it. I like the idea that Radzinsky survives and understands a nuke can seal the energy and so builds a nuke to act as the failsafe under the Swan.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 14, 2009 2:02 PM | Report abuse

cekrypton1 is right. these turn of events make locke's story even more elegant than it already was. it's a chronic history of being used and manipulated by playing off a a desperately lonely man's desire to feel "loved" and "special." but here we are again. it was a kidney before, but now it's locke's entire body.

but all this begs the question of why locke is the loophole. i mean, if the loophole is just a matter of anti-jacob inhabiting another body, why doesn't he (or can't he) kill jacob as christian shepherd or yemi or alex?

locke may very well be "special" after all.

that's the storyline i'm most looking forward to seeing play out. what we've discovered from this season just enriches "walkabout" from season 1, which is our introduction to locke and still my favorite episode. it got me hooked on the show.

Posted by: plathman | May 14, 2009 2:04 PM | Report abuse

"but all this begs the question of why locke is the loophole. i mean, if the loophole is just a matter of anti-jacob inhabiting another body, why doesn't he (or can't he) kill jacob as christian shepherd or yemi or alex? "

Because he needed to inhabit someone who was "the leader"- only that person could request an audience with Jacob.

Posted by: floof | May 14, 2009 2:09 PM | Report abuse

What I wonder is that while Locke went back to bring back the O-6 because Richard and BLJ told him, it was actually the WIDMORE'S who helped him carry it out (hell, Charles set him up with files and a chauffeur to take him all over the place for the purpose of convincing them to go back, and it was Eloise who told them HOW to get back). How Eloise and Charles play into all of this remains to be seen.

I also think that Desmond's role in everything isn't over yet ("the island isnt finished with you yet, Desmond")

Posted by: chombie13 | May 14, 2009 2:10 PM | Report abuse

I don't think Man 2 is evil. I think they are both gray. I say this because Man 2 is seriously hating that Jacob keeps bringing people to the Island for his own entertainment and he doesn't seem to care that they all die. I think we will find that they are great rivals and humans have been their pawns for centuries.

Posted by: mwalkerg | May 14, 2009 2:12 PM | Report abuse

Next I want to focus on Ilana. She already knows Jacob when he comes to visit her in the hospital, and she certainly knows a lot about the Island, although her information is dated: e.g. referring to Richard by his Latin name (which also indicates that Richard pre-dates the Black Rock). He recruits her for a mission, and probably heals her injuries when she agrees. Her mission appears to be to first round up Sayid, the only one of the O5 who does not agree to go back willingly -- which would appear to mean that it's not just Esau's plan, but Jacob's plan also that all five return. (Including Hurley, who -- crucially -- can speak to dead people, possibly including Jacob himself now, although Hurley's in 1977.)

Then the mission is to bring Locke's body to convince someone what they are up against, in Bram's words. That has to be a reference to the Others -- they need to show Locke's body to Richard et al. so that the Others know that they've been duped by Esau. They first go to the cabin, either to find Jacob (if it's Jacob's cabin), or to confirm that Esau in fact escaped some time ago (my theory).

The whole fact that they are lugging Locke's body around to show it to Richard must mean that Ilana's team KNOWS that Locke is not Locke before they even leave Hydra island, and Bram's quote seems to indicate that they know that it is Esau. I would assume they know all this because Jacob told them, which would mean Jacob was aware of Esau's plan, but for some reason didn't or couldn't stop it himself. It must also be that Ilana's team can't stop Esau themselves, or they wouldn't need Locke's body -- the "help" Jacob asks Ilana for must be help in convincing Richard and the Others to fight Esau.

Posted by: charodon | May 14, 2009 2:13 PM | Report abuse

Have the people who are calling man #2 Esau read Genesis lately? Esau is a total shlemiel who sells his birthright for soup. His biggest claim to fame is that he's "a hairy man." He is HARDLY any kind of villain.

Personally, I'm going with Anubis (who we see in the temply heiroglyphs) vs Sobek/Jacob (who the statue is), which is a death vs creator duality.

Posted by: floof | May 14, 2009 2:29 PM | Report abuse

Ricardus is simply Richard's name in Latin, bevjims.

charodon, I'm not sure that proves Richard predates the Black Rock. Jacob's faction, Ilana and Bram that is, had a Latin answer to their identifying phrase. They could refer to Richard as Ricardus even if his origins are 18th/19th (or 20th_) century.

Posted by: UniqueID | May 14, 2009 2:29 PM | Report abuse

"Bizarro-John-Locke seemed surprised when Ben said he(Ben) would do whatever Locke told him to because Smokey/deadAlex ordered him to. If that was genuine, it would imply that Smokey and BJL are NOT both manifestations Man#2."
Posted by: emfzlx

Maybe both are smokeys and Jacob judged Ben. Plus we do not know that smokey=deadAlex. deadAlex could have been Jacob, who seemed like he wanted to be stabbed, or Man#2. Two smokeys would explain why one smokey read Eko and let him go but later smokey killed Eko.

Also, Jacob lived under the statue. The cabin therefore must have been where this other thing lived, Man#2, which had been imprisoned by the ash. Maybe that is what Jacob was refering to by it always having one ending. It always ended with Man#2 imprisoned. And that is why Man#2 told Jacob he really hated him.

Ben killed Jacob after being told he had free will. Ben's a goin' ta hell. That should be a satisfying episode. Ben thinks he's doing good but because he can be so manipulated and filled with hate he willingly kills Jacob. Ben's doomed.

And, consider that Widmore put up a lot of effort to kill Ben, sending Keemey's team to do the job. Maybe because he knew one day he would kill Jacob, making Widmore the good guy. Nice to have my theories torn to pieces every week. I'll need a 7 month rest...

Oh, and the statue sure looks like Tawaret, godess of fertility. The head cannot be a crocadile since it has ears and crocs do not have ears, but hippos do.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 14, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

As tempting as it might be, it's impossible to effectively analyze or rationalize this series. "Lost" is an amalgamation of a series of "Deus ex machina" episodes. Plot stuck in an impossible loop? Bring in another god-like character to rectify the incongruities and add even more absurd possibilities. Rinse and repeat.

Posted by: haroldb1 | May 14, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

"The head cannot be a crocadile since it has ears and crocs do not have ears, but hippos do. "

Real ones don't, but the depictions of Sobek typically do, and they usually show him holding an ankh as well.

Check these out:

Posted by: floof | May 14, 2009 2:52 PM | Report abuse

MrDarwin - Because they are content with their lives?

Boston11 - Yes! Dante captures it all. Maybe Jacob=Virgil?

Nel mezzo del'camin di nostra vita
Mi ritrovai per una selva oscura
Che la diretta via era smarita

every single character... LOST... facing existential choices.

Posted by: camis | May 14, 2009 3:15 PM | Report abuse

I wept unabashedly when Juliet was sucked down the hole. Sawyer, you had that coming. Looking at Kate - what were you thinking?

Of course the biggest question of the night is WHO IS JACOB?! And can this super awesome powerful guy really be killed with a mere knife and some fire?

Major theological themes, too - Ben demanding his audience with Jacob reminded me of Job. But instead of hearing "gird your loins and I will answer you," in response to "what about me?" Ben just got "Well, what about you?" Well, that and, "Ow - urg - robble - you stabbed me!"

Many great lines, but I laughed hardest at this exchange, because it has become SO typical of this season:
Sawyer: "Are you sure I can't change your mind?"
Jack: "No."
Me: (here it comes)
Sawyer: PUNCH!

Posted by: Sam888 | May 14, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

"Esau. Evil twin."

aka THE BAD TWIN!! :-o

Posted by: allison777 | May 14, 2009 3:22 PM | Report abuse

I don't know how to start, but I felt that many parts of the finale were a bit cheesy. This includes the writing, the topic, and the acting. The flip-flop of Juliet (in the sub, during the SawJack fight, having Kates back), was silly, and I feel took away from the series. Frankly, 1/2 way through I was thinking "am I going to be one of those fans that gives up on Lost?". Anyone else see any of that. I think I liked the Rose/Bernard scene the best - 'Oh sh*t, they found us' - that was great. (I'm paraphrasing, but still).

Posted by: Michael_A1 | May 14, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse

ok, it could be Sobek. Sobek would make more sense for Jacob, assuming he's a relatively good guy, though he did let Nadia die as though he could have cared less, like Richard's reponse to killing the Americans. These guys (gods) are very cold, just as they have been described.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 14, 2009 3:39 PM | Report abuse

over at the Lost hour --

the white light was actually time-shifting, not a bomb explosion

I like that theory!

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 3:44 PM | Report abuse

Does anybody have a suggestion on the reason why the scene of Juliet and her sister as young girls being informed by their parents of their divorce was included as a flashback? Just to offer a possible rationalization for Juliet's change of mind?

Posted by: for33 | May 14, 2009 3:53 PM | Report abuse

My theory:

As others have said, Jacob had to die to clear the way for his successor, who will ultimately defeat or at least re-contain Esau/#2. Who is his successor? The GOOD John Locke (who was being carreid around in the "ark of the covenant" box, by the way) who will finally get to fulfill his destiny and prove that all of Richard's instincts that he was the good guy were ultimately correct. Why do you think they're toting his body around the island? If the so-called "Good Guys" are going for shock value, wouldn't it have been easier to just cut of his head and carry that? They need the body. Cue the ultimate showdown of Locke vs. Locke, with Ben standing around looking extremely confused.

Posted by: allison777 | May 14, 2009 3:57 PM | Report abuse

Everyone who keeps saying that the spectral Christian Shephard on the Island must be the anti-Jacob because he could not touch anyone: WRONG. Christian picked up and held baby Aaron, just before disappearing with Claire -- remember?

Posted by: jesharris | May 14, 2009 4:03 PM | Report abuse

While Sun has gotten the short shrift this season dialogue-wise, Christian Shepherd/Man#2 told her she had a long journey ahead of her. So hopefully, her asking so many questions means that next season she'll get some answers, and an interesting journey to whenever/wherever Jin ends up after the Incident. Their relationship seems to be in the plans of both Jacob and Man#2 (if that indeed was Christian), and I predict we'll see a lot more of her next yr.

@for33: yes, I think the divorce scene was simply to explain that sometimes people may love each other, but aren't meant to be together. It provides a basis for Juliet succumbing to an unfortunate fate; even though she wanted a happy ever after ending, that wasn't in her stars.

Posted by: gracedc | May 14, 2009 4:07 PM | Report abuse

Like many children of divorce, Juliet has relationship issues, unable to believe in permanence and, therefore engaging in self-destructive behavior that makes breaking up a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

"Does anybody have a suggestion on the reason why the scene of Juliet and her sister as young girls being informed by their parents of their divorce was included as a flashback? Just to offer a possible rationalization for Juliet's change of mind?"
Posted by: for33

I think so. Juliet quited her mother almost word for word from that scene when she told Sawyer that loving each other was not enough to stay together, or something like that. The mother was saying she loved her husband but they could not stay together. Juliet learned that love does not keep people together, unlike Bernard/Rose/Vincent, where love is all they need. Juliet still has a lot to learn. She just might make a return next season.

"the white light was actually time-shifting, not a bomb explosion. I like that theory!"
Posted by: ooyah32

Me too! It would allow Juliet to be saved. I had always assumed the incident would propel out Lostees into 2007. Maybe it will. Yea, Jin/Sun reunite, Juliet/Sawyer reunite, Jack/Kate get together. Sounds good, but one thing ... Hurley has not yet read the numbers onto the tape loop at the radio tower. That has to happen before Danielle and the frenchies arrive. If its a time jump, maybe they just jump a few years. We'll see.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 14, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

I'm liking that white light was a time-shift theory more and more.

That would preserve the time-line, but would transport the Losties back to 2007 where they belong.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 4:10 PM | Report abuse

Jacob is clearly the God/Christ figure and Bad Locke is the antiGod figure. Both represent different views about humanity, with Jacob espousing the humanity's redeemable qualities and BL believing in their innate depravity. I think that all of the supernatural sightings on the island (Christian, smoke monster, etc.) are all the work of Bad Locke. I think even this whole turning the wheel so the island moves business is all of Bad Locke's doing (remember, it was Christian who told Locke to move the island). Jacob brings people to the island (as alluded to by BL in the opening scene dialogue), maybe to redeem them somehow, but it devolves into conflict. Jacob sees this as progress. But he doesn't want to intervene. Why? Because we always have a choice. Its our choice. Free will given by "God." BL tries to manipulate our choice, which causes conflict. Bernard and his wife...separated from BL's influence, lives a life Jacob wants them to live, in peace. Hurley, who has the strongest moral compass of the losties, always seems to buck the trend in terms of refusing to go along with things he doesn't agree with, no matter how much metaphysical support there seems to be. He seems kind of immune to BL's manipulations. He always makes his own choice based on his morals. This is probably why Jacob talks to him directly about going back to the island.

Posted by: shong31 | May 14, 2009 4:16 PM | Report abuse

Great episode, except no Desmond and Penny. I hope we have not seen the last of them.

mwalkerg, I agree. I think neither Jacob or the other is evil. This is like the other characters in the show. I don't believe the show is about a battle of good vs evil.

Jacob and the other may be representations of Egyptian Gods, but they reminded me of Randolf and Mortimer from Trading Places. Interfering in others lives for there own benefit or entertainment.

I believe Sebok was a god of Fertility. I wonder if the preganancy problem on the island is related.

I don't believe Jack and the bomb was the cause of the incident. I think after the bomb went off the time line will change. If there was no change, how would the show fit Locke into the last season? If the time line did not change, then everyone who was at the swan site would have been killed by the explosion. There would be no Dr. Chang training films, no swan station.

I wonder what role Aaron will play in the final season. The spirit Claire, who I assume is aligned with the not Jacob entity, was very adamant about not bringing Aaron back (unless she meant Locke). Is this because he could play a key role in the feud between Jacob and not Jacob.

Posted by: adam_peritz | May 14, 2009 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Also, if the white light was a time-shift, not an explosion, then Dr. Chang would have witnessed the Losties vanishing into thin air, which would lead him to further investigate the Island's exotic matter properties with the time-travelling bunnies.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 4:29 PM | Report abuse

“the white light was actually time-shifting”… “It would allow Juliet to be saved.”

However, detonating a fission bomb at arms-length (and starring in a new series) casts significant doubt on Juliet’s continued contribution. Shame, since many of the major-ish female characters have died early (Shannon, Ana Lucia, Libby, Charlotte…), disappeared (Claire), had their characters trashed (Kate, Juliet to a degree too), or the writers simply forget to give them a meaningful storyline (Sun, maybe Rose). On the other hand, the producers have been very heavy-handed in exposing charcter flaws in many of the main characters, mixed in with unfortunate doses of stupidity (e.g., Jack).

Personally, I was disappointed that we didn’t see who could change the ‘past or ‘future (in addition to ‘changes’ we’ve seen revolving around Desmond) and by how much (since we ‘know’ events can be changed). I suppose the producers wanted us to keep guessing if the season five version of The Incident was always thus… or if ‘previously’ someone (e.g., Stuart!) built a failsafe key into The Swan that triggered an un-detonated fission bomb that happened to be lying around…

Posted by: PatAbroad | May 14, 2009 4:33 PM | Report abuse

OF COURSE Jacob wanted Ben to kill him! I mean, all show long, he's entering the Lostie's lives at critical moments and offering words of encourgement and trying to uplift spirits. Then Ben pours his heart out in probably his (Ben's) most vulnerable moment, and Jacob's response? MEH! knifeknifeknife....

THIS is the storyline I am most looking forward to next season: WHY did Jacob need Ben to kill him?

Posted by: therearenonamesleft | May 14, 2009 4:43 PM | Report abuse

Maybe we're not being clear.

By the white light being a time-shift, we mean that THERE WAS NO DETONATION! The bomb DIDN'T go off, at least, not with an explosion (which is hardly surprising since it is an extremely complex device).

Rather, the fissionable material started some time-shifting reaction, leaving Dr. Chang, crazy Radzinsky, and the others alive and well to fill in the hole with copious amounts of concrete and have to build "the button" to prevent a real fission explosion, which, combined with the Island's exotic material, would have "caused the end of the world," as was feared by Desmond.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 14, 2009 5:04 PM | Report abuse

What is it with Ben and his Daddy Issues? Grow up already! BJL (Bizarro John Locke) played him like a cheap violin.
And wouldn't that just royally piss him off if and when he finally figures out that he's been played?

We don't really see too much of the island in the Jin-Ben-Lapidus-BJL/present time. That may be due to the bomb that the past-Losties/Juliet detonated. So I think they did change things. The island was in good condition when the Losties originally landed on the island. But it wasn't in good condition after the Ajira flight crashed. So things have changed...

Anyone going to ComicCon this year? I'm wondering if there will be any previews there of next season.

Posted by: olivertray | May 14, 2009 5:11 PM | Report abuse

Sorry for the double post but didn't your heart just ache a little when Rose asked Juliet if she would like some tea just before they went storming off into the jungle? I just wanted her to say "yes" and sit down and just forget about everything else for awhile and sit there with Bernard and Rose.
Moments lost...

Posted by: olivertray | May 14, 2009 5:44 PM | Report abuse

An H-bomb uses water, preferably heavy water (containing H3 instead of H2) as the source of hydrogen. That's why Jughead is so heavy.

Posted by: Ghak | May 14, 2009 6:59 PM | Report abuse

"bevjims1, An H-bomb uses water, preferably heavy water (containing H3 instead of H2) as the source of hydrogen. That's why Jughead is so heavy."
Posted by: Ghak

This is a joke, right?

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 14, 2009 7:23 PM | Report abuse

Ben's discussion with Jacob "why not me", where he's the whiny, sniveling, short-sighted mortal talking to the benevolent god etc. seemed like it could have come right out of the Old Testament. Fascinating. And I just want to say again how awesome Michael Emerson is as an actor and what a great character that is. Jacob & #2 are almost certainly some minor gods or god-like entities like the ones in just about every mythology.

It seems like the consensus is that the Locke we know is gone for good. So this means he was really just being naively manipulated by bad Locke this whole time (in the form of smokie, jacob, etc.)? Just like he was manipulated by his own father and even the undercover drug agent? If so, what a tragic figure he is; it means he never learned and just got taken advantage of by people over and over and over again because he was too trusting, had too much faith in the good of humanity. How sad.

Also, if the nuke did go off and the future DID change - we still aren't sure whether that's possible - doesn't that mean that Jacob is never killed by Bad Locke & he's still alive? What happens then?

And I would posit that the future has already been changed by the people in 1977, by shooting 'lil Ben. Now that the "incident" has occured and a big chunk of Dharma is off the island or killed by the electromagnetic power (right?) is Ben's purge still going to happen? Where does that all fit into this timeline?

Posted by: allison777 | May 14, 2009 7:46 PM | Report abuse

Ya know, it seems the writers of Lost require people to come on line, rely on those who translate, inspect photos, research ancient mythology, etc. Who would know what Richard's response was to Illana unless they knew Latin or read the translation on a blog. I think LindiCrus are alienating a lot of older people from Lost, people who remember shows that you needed a brain to watch. Though I like the blogs I feel the show needs to stop relying on hiding so much people get frustrated. My two sisters gave up on the show years ago and they are Jeopardy fanatics. They love to solve riddles, but why hide info and expect people to go out and find it? I mean, imagine Jeopardy requiring you to look everything up in a dictionary and encyclopedia.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 14, 2009 8:40 PM | Report abuse

SO is it agreed that Bernard and Rose are the Adam & Eve skeltons from season1?

Posted by: skinsfan6465 | May 14, 2009 9:19 PM | Report abuse

The nickname for BJL is easy; the guy has an obvious "Lockeness" to him.

Posted by: beisbol | May 14, 2009 9:44 PM | Report abuse

It's worth revisiting Charodon's post:
1. Esau (Bizarro-John-Locke) inhabited the cabin for quite some time.

2. The line of ash was to keep Esau in a sort of jail. And it would be Esau who appeared to the Real-John-Locke/RJL in the cabin. Esau says "help me." And, as we now know, it's Esau who sends Locke/RJL back to the real world with the instructions to round up the O6 and then die -- all so Esau can settle scores with Jacob. Locke's mission was Esau's plan." Posted by Charodon

So, what happened to Bizarro-John-Locke's plan? Just as Jacob collapsed in the fire, we see (in a parallel universe albeit 30 years earlier) an event that could change something or everything in the "present", even Jacob's death.

Season 6 will open with *the usual scene*: Jack laying face up in the jungle, breathing heavily. As the 0-6 regroup, they need to figure out what has changed, and what hasn't.

Posted by: Makaha | May 14, 2009 9:45 PM | Report abuse

I still think that Desmond plays a critical role in the outcome of the island and the lives of the Losties. He seems to be called to the island as well, and yet we know nothing of his life story apart from Penny. We know that he met Libby at the coffee shop and she gave him her boat, which lead him to crash on the island. But other than that we don't know if Jacob has chosen him as well or why he is not subject to the same laws of the island as Daniel mentioned earlier. Furthermore, why is Charles Widmore so desperate to keep him away from it really such a shallow reason as "you are not good enough for her"? It must be tied to something related to the island.

How sad for John Lock. Was Jack's comment to Richard about "not giving up on him" a hint to us viewers? Or was it showing how mislead Jack is because of his guilt over John's death and his lack of faith in him? Is he just another pawn in Bad John Lock's plan? I hope it is the former. I want to believe John Lock is special.

Maybe Jack was willing to let Sayid bleed to death because he was on his way to blow up the island and figured it wouldn't matter if he changes the future.

Thank you Jen and Liz for a great season of posts!

Posted by: Sassyfras | May 14, 2009 9:46 PM | Report abuse

"What ABOUT you?!"

Harken back to the reunion flight back to the island...Jack looked at Ben, and asked, "what about all the other people on this plane?"

didn't Ben respond, "What ABOUT them?"


Posted by: therestherub | May 14, 2009 10:12 PM | Report abuse

The plot hole that was really bugging me was this: the problem was that the release of energy was going to kill people and cause the plane to come down eventually. The obvious solution would be to kidnap/kill the mad scientist looking guy that was the only one adamant about drilling. Instead, they devise a complicated plan involving nuking the island to counteract said energy.

The quip "using a sledgehammer as a fly swatter" doesn't begin to describe the amount of overkill in this plan.

Posted by: Booyah5000 | May 14, 2009 10:19 PM | Report abuse

Based on what we apparently have "learned" in these two episodes, that man #2 could be the smoke monster, that he most probably had been impersonating Jacob ever since the Black Rock times to Richard Alpert, and through him instructing the Others' leaders, probably inhabiting body-copies of Christian and Locke, I wonder if he (the "bad" guy) could be behind all apparitions on the island, including Walt to Shannon and Sayid, Dave to Hurley. And what about the whispers?

All throughout the show we have been pondering about Ben, and now it seems that, like many other characters, he has been manipulated all along. I think that wherever the show goes from now, Ben's future doesn't look very promising.

Posted by: for33 | May 15, 2009 7:42 AM | Report abuse

"SO is it agreed that Bernard and Rose are the Adam & Eve skeltons from season1?"
Posted by: skinsfan6465

There is this "black&white" theme that has been going on since the beginning of Lost, even in the white LOST logo on a black background. A pouch was found on one of the skeletons that contained one white and one black stone. Jacob was wearing a white shirt on the beach, Man#2 was wearing a black shirt. And, the LOST logo changed after Jacob was killed to a black logo on a white background, I think signifying evil now rules the island.

So, assuming the two stones are significant, I'm guessing the skeletons are of Jacob and Man#2. Yea I know, they died decades ago, but what is time in Lost?

I agree UnLocke is probably also the smoke monster, but I think Jacob is also another smoke monster. We've seen the smoke monster be very violent, like when it killed Eko, and benevolent, like when Eko stared it down from just inches away and the monster backed off. I think Jacob/Man#2 are the same type of thing, gods in my opinion, and can express themselves as smoke. Smokey-Jacob attacked Keemey's men after Keemey killed Alex. Smokey-Man#2 killed Eko and the pilot.

And I think when Jacob said to Man#2 while looking at the Black Rock "Here they come", he was refering to something they had already experienced. They had been through this before, many times, and it was beginning again. Here they come. Its starting. And Jacob refers to it ending the same way while Man#2 talks about needing to make a loophole, a hole in the loop to escape or change the ending. Then the dialog about how people come and corrupt, etc. Jacob says its progress. What is about to happen has happened before. A time loop which Jacob is prepared for, or at least resigned to, and Man#2 hates. I don't think its as simple as good/evil or black/white though, but, in the end, humans have to decide which to support, the good or the evil, and I think that is at the center of the whole story.

As for what happens next, well, like we knew introducing a nuke had to have some significance in the future, carrying Locke's body to the statue has a significance. I think Jacob will inhabit Locke's dead body, giving us Locke and UnLocke in a war throughout season 6, with Ben becoming the good guy he thought he was but really was not and the ultimate defeat of evil/Man#2. A Jacob is dying he tells Man#2 "They're here", as though the crowd outside the statue was expected. As before its happening again and Jacob is not surprised nor does he seem worried that Man#2 found a loophole. 2010 is too far away.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 15, 2009 8:27 AM | Report abuse

If you want to know what people are saying in the non-english dialog, turn on closed captioning. it translates everything.
Ilana was talking Russian in the hospital. which is odd, since Ilana is not a Russian name, nor does she look Russian. Unless she's a Chechen or something.
The candy bar Jack was trying to buy was called "Apollo" -- which I thought was significant at the time, but now I can't remember why!

Posted by: beta1 | May 15, 2009 8:47 AM | Report abuse

One other thought--I don't agree that Christian is a manifestation of #2. When Locke is trying to turn the donkey wheel and tells Christian that Richard told him (Locke) that he'd have to die, Christian looks surprised and says something like "Why would he tell you that? You don't have to die." So maybe anti-Locke and Christian are not the same.

Posted by: beta1 | May 15, 2009 8:51 AM | Report abuse

You may be onto something. Christian being Jacob makes more sense to me. Thanks for pointing that out.

Anyone have an idea as to who broke the ash circle around the cabin? On other blogs they say it was Hurley when he visited the cabin, but I don't remember that. I think it was Man#2, releasing Jacob as part of the plan to kill him. And the pitcure of the statue Illana found in the cabin stuck to the wall with a knife was a weaving, and we know Jacob likes to weave, so that was likely left by him.

And speaking of weaving, if Jacob is the egyptian god Sobek, Sobek's mother (can't remember her name right now) was the goddess of weaving.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 15, 2009 9:28 AM | Report abuse

Perhaps this is either an aimless trail of thought or something that has already been expressed, but… does Smokey only take the form of dead people on the island? (apart from Walt and the Medusa spider). Therefore Locke had to be brought back to the island dead, which meant he had to be told he had to die (the loophole?). And wasn’t it Hawking basically ensured dead-Locke was returned to the island. Does this constitute some connection between Smoke/Man #2 and Hawking? Or has Jacob-following Hawking accidentally led to the downfall of Jacob?

Posted by: PatAbroad | May 15, 2009 10:31 AM | Report abuse

Well, shoot, my comment got the "held for approval" sign, which means it's too long, so I'll break it up and try again. Disjointed thoughts:

I don't know that it's a question of good vs. evil. I think it's more fate vs. free will (which fits into the bigger storyline). I like the Sobek angle -- i.e., Jacob isn't an active force for good, but simply helps people heal from the bad. The past stories were enlightening on that score: he visited everyone at a critical juncture in their lives, in a way that gave them a choice on how to go forward. You can see that as good or bad, based on how the choices played out. But the key aspect was to give them the opportunity to live their lives as they choose.

That is also the crux of the struggle between Jacob and Esau (for want of a better term). Esau believes that humans are fated to repeat the same mistakes, as the cycle has played out on the island for millennia. Jacob believes that one day, humans will make the right choices and break the cycle for good.

But then again, Jacob was the one spinning the thread and weaving the tapestry (my husband saw that and said, "gee, can you make the "Fates" thing more blatant?"). And Esau is the one who is overtly trying to manipulate events. Clearly there is some rule that equivalent god-like creatures can't take each other out. So rather than trusting fate (as Esau's purported beliefs would seem to lead him to do), Esau instead concocts this complex scheme to manipulate people to ensure that their baser motivations prevail, so he can convince them to do what he cannot and kill Jacob. So ironically, it's Esau(mr. "destiny rules") who in fact attempts to interfere with events to change Jacob's (and his own) destiny, and Jacob (Mr. free will) who effectively leaves it to fate in his belief that humanity's better nature will ultimately prevail.

Posted by: laura33 | May 15, 2009 11:24 AM | Report abuse

beta1 and bevjims1: I do not think that Christian looked surprised when Locke told him that Richard said he had to die. In fact he seemed to support Richard's statement. Christian told Locke:
"That's why they call it sacrifice".

Posted by: for33 | May 15, 2009 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Part 2:

The whole Jacob/free will thing also makes Jacob's last line to Ben so fitting. It seemed very cold. But what if it was a challenge? What about you? What's your choice? Who do you choose to believe, and what are you going to do about it? Jacob could have explained everything in a few words. But he intentionally chose not to try to influence Ben's choice (again, the opposite of Esau, who had been manipulating things for years).

It also makes me wonder about Christian. One thing that has always bugged me is how Claire was very specifically told that Aaron must be raised by her, and her alone, and how protective she was of him as a result of that. And yet, Christian appears, and that all goes out the window, and she happily leaves him behind without so much as looking back. That doesn't seem to be a Jacob-type thing -- more like Esau manipulating things so the "bad" prophecy comes true. And, of course, it was Christian who told John that all he needed to do was to leave the island himself to set things right (which, again, is different from the "bring everyone back" line he was told earlier). Again, setting him up to leave and be killed so Esau could assume his body?

I hope this isn't the end for the real Locke. I really want him to end up having that purpose he was so desperately seeking, not to have just been a tool in the ultimate game, like he always had been before.

Posted by: laura33 | May 15, 2009 11:28 AM | Report abuse

Are we sure Jacob is a benevolent god/character? I did not like him at all. He allowed young Kate to get away with theft, thus never learning the lesson that what you do has consequences. He gave a pen to young Sawyer, encouraging him to live a life of revenge. He planted a temptation in newlywed minds that there is an alternative to happy, faithful marriage. He revived a dead man, who should probably have been allowed to rest in peace. And finally, anyone who causes Nadia to be hit by a car is a villain. Period. Watch it again folks. Jacob did not stop Sayid in order to save him from being hit by a car. If he had not stopped Sayid, the couple would have been nearly across the street -- or at least into the far lane. Jacob stopped them and made Nadia pause in front of oncoming traffic. I was hearing the Rolling Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil" the whole time we saw Jacob.

Posted by: a68comeback | May 15, 2009 11:36 AM | Report abuse

Also, What if John Locke has been Man No.2 ever since he first "looked the island in the eye" and was confronted by the smoke monster in Season One? We don't know what the rules of possession are for these gods/characters. Maybe Man No.2 was able to possess Locke's body when convenient, maybe the entire time, and left the body dead when he didn't need the shell.

This is mean and off-topic: but was it just me or did Locke totally need a man-bra during the pilgrimage to the statue-foot? The directors need to make sure they aren't having him carry a backpack over both shoulders next season.

Posted by: a68comeback | May 15, 2009 11:42 AM | Report abuse

So many great comments, I really can not wait till 2010. Agreed about Sayid being saved and really more confused than ever about the origin of this good (Jacob) vs Evil (not Locke) struggle, how did it start, and why?

FWIW, I cried like a baby when Juliet fell. I was crying when Jack and Kate exchanged a look and James and Juliet did the same after the bomb was dropped in the shaft. I am still crying that I have to wait to see what happens!

Posted by: cheekymonkey | May 15, 2009 11:42 AM | Report abuse

The actor that played Jacob also has a pig nose. I hated that guy. Pigs are connected to satan somehow. If you don't believe me, re-read the original Amityville Horror.

I will be disturbed if Jacob's soul inhabits Frank Lapidus next season.

How do we know that he who will protect us all isn't Man No.2 anyway??

Posted by: a68comeback | May 15, 2009 11:48 AM | Report abuse

"How do we know that he who will protect us all isn't Man No.2 anyway??"
Posted by: a68comeback

Because what lies in the shadow of the statue is he who shall protect/save us all, and the base of the statue is where Jacob lives according to Man#2.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 15, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

a68comeback wrote: "Are we sure Jacob is a benevolent god/character?"

No, but I think Jacob's actions while visiting the Lostees in the last was similar to Eloise's attitude when she explained to Desmond that she could not help the man with the red shoes killed because if she did something else would have killed him. Jacob seemed to have this attitude that he had a boring job of making the rounds. But he did not watch Locke fall, something a bad dude would do. He just waited for the thump. So while I'm not sure he's a good guy I don't think, within the context of Lost, that he is a bad guy.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 15, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

I seem unable to stop thinking about this. I am persuaded by the fate vs free will theme (and its embodiment by Jacob and Man #2), but unlike Doc Jensen and others, I feel it is Man#2 who is representative of the free-will side of the dichotomy. Man #2 seems to be the prisoner of Jacob. He embodies the arguement for free will precisely because it is denied him. And his dialogue is that of an insurgent. Whichever one of these characters we viewers choose to describe as good depends on our own prejudices and philosophies--way to go Lind/Cuse for putting it all on us. One last literary reference (perhaps already made above), Jacob could be a Prospero and Man #2 his Caliban....

Posted by: cb201 | May 15, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

a68comeback: I agree with your analysis, and add one more thing. It was the death of Nadia that caused Sayid to become a hit man for Ben.

Any theories on how the statue of Sobek is destroyed? I don't believe it was the Abomb, because the Statue is on the other side of the island.
I also agree the detonation of the bomb did not trigger an explosion, but rather some sort of time distortion event. My question is who does the event effect? Is it only the 815ers an Miles or does it affect Chang Radzinsky and every one else on the island. I was disappointed with the finale, not just because there was no Desmond and Penny, but because we did not learn why only the 815ers and Mile, Dan and Charlotte were affected be the time jumps, and no explanation was given why Sun was not transported back to 1977.

Do you think the fail-safe switch that Desmond turned at the end of Season 2 also triggered another Atomic bomb? Is it possible that in other time line Farraday installed the switch.

I wonder if the final season will be about the 815er's and the others, tired of being pawns in the game between Jacob and man #2, rebelling to regain control of their lives.

Wasn't the look on Radzinsky's face as he tried to drive away from the swan site in the Jeep priceless.

Posted by: adam_peritz | May 15, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

What I find it somehow difficult to accept is the ease with which Ben was manipulated by the Locke-Man#2 entity. Especially given the dialog they had with Jacob when inside the statue. All throughout the show Ben has shown being educated to an extent that seems inconsistent and beyond the Dahrma education: he can quote Steinbeck, he can play Rachmaninov, he can extract bullets from Sayid, he can explain Thomas the Apostle to Jack, and most of all he can be incredibly calculating. It is hard to believe that he missed the setup at the end, when he was first goaded into violence by the Locke-Man#2 entity, and then practically run through the motions by the Christ-like Jacob (if you watch the episode, Jacob even seems to be tear-eyed at the moment of the "What about you?" question).

Posted by: for33 | May 15, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Another point on Jacob and Man #2 being neither good or evil.

It may have been me, but I thought when Locke/Man #2 told Richard to take care of the 316 survivors there was some disgust in his voice. It seems to me that man #2 is not fond of the way Jacob has instructed the others to kill and kidnap people who arrive to the island, even though they have not done anything wrong. The only reason he wants the 316ers dead is for self preservation.

Posted by: adam_peritz | May 15, 2009 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Just one more thing. With the suggestion that Man#2 and Jacob can not do physical violence on each other, what's up with the Locke/Man#2 entity kicking Jacob into the fire?

Posted by: for33 | May 15, 2009 1:46 PM | Report abuse

a68comeback's list of accusations against Jacob got me to thinking --

With Kate, Jacob ransoms her and pays her debt
With James, Jacob gives him the word
With Sun and Jin, Jacob blesses their marriage
With Locke, Jacob raises the dead to life
With Sayid and Nadia, Jacob does not cause the evil, but allows it to exist
With Jack, Jacob feeds him
With Hugo, Jacob gives him a mission
With Ilana, Jacob asks her to serve him

Each and every one of these encounters has a parallel in Christ. Add into that the fish on the shore, the creation of the tapestry, the sacrificial death, and other incidents, Jacob is undeniably meant to be a Christ-like figure.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 15, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

for33 -- your noting Ben's extensive education also triggers something:

The smartest and most educated of the Apostles was Judas. Too smart for his own good, thinking that he knew better than Jesus.

Both Judas and Ben, in arrogantly putting themselves first, end up betraying their master and causing his death.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 15, 2009 2:42 PM | Report abuse

Why would a Christ-like figure live under the statue of an Egyptian God?

Posted by: adam_peritz | May 15, 2009 3:03 PM | Report abuse

Adam --

It's called TV. I don't think anybody expects a totally retelling of the Bible. Neither the Narnia books or the Lord of the Rings books were -- both were heavily dosed with fantasy.

What is to be expected here is that the writers would mix in a variety of religious ideas and concepts. But it cannot be denied that Christian images and ideas are pervasive in Lost.

Posted by: ooyah32 | May 15, 2009 3:15 PM | Report abuse

I'm coming late to this thread and haven't read all of the above but I think Jacob's "dieing" words that "they're coming", or something like that, refers to the 1977 Lostees and has something to do with the explosion in the well/hole. I believe Jacob orchestrated their arrival on the island to save him and/or the island and to prove to the Un-Locke that there is worth in mankind.

Posted by: dojemc | May 15, 2009 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Jacob knew Ben was going to kill him (as evidenced by the tears in his eyes) even though he told him that he had a choice. He was giving Ben one last chance to change the timeline/loop.

I think Charlie is coming back (clues: the DS ring found in the cradle and the guitar case Hurley brought back to the island). Perhaps he will be Jacob resurrected.

And UnLocke/Man #2 could push Jacob into the fire because he was mortally wounded by Ben and was basically dead already.
By the way, pushing Jacob into the fire...very phoenix-like.

Anyone have a link to a cap of the tapestry in Jacob's room? I wonder if there are any clues on it.

Posted by: olivertray | May 15, 2009 3:51 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: csh1 | May 15, 2009 4:09 PM | Report abuse


You may see the ideas and images on Lost as being based on Christianity. However, other viewers, like myself, may have different opinions of the imagery presented in Lost.

In the case of Jacob and Man #2, I believe they do not represent good or evil, Christ or Satan, but rather free will vs destiny.

Posted by: adam_peritz | May 15, 2009 4:28 PM | Report abuse

bevjims1: "This is a joke, right?"

It wasn't meant as a joke, but a little research found nothing to support my clearly wrong theory that the hydrogen is in a bomb in the form of water. So I revoke my previous answer. Sorry.

However, the plutonium explosion that who cause the hydrogen to have a fusion reaction needs to be contained (briefly) and focused on the hydrogen (actually heavy isotopes of hydrogen, either deuterium or tritium, that will still be lighter than other gases) that is in the bomb. I would assume that the extra weight is the hardware that is required to contain and focus that plutonium fission reaction.

Posted by: Ghak | May 15, 2009 5:24 PM | Report abuse

I am wondering if Man #2 is not Jacob's brother but instead is his son.

Locke had to kill his father in order to gain access to the secrets of the island. He did not do it himself, he had it done by Sawyer. Locke, in effect, found his own loophole. He presented his father's body to Ben and never explained what happened, leaving Ben and Alpert to think he did it himself. I think Ben did not think it could be done (Locke killing his father) so he was surprised and dismayed that he would have to share power.

Now Man #2 has killed Jacob through the proxy of Ben - his loophole. I am wondering if the murder was intended to get Jacob out of the way because he had been clinging to power for so long, manipulating people and conditions to preserve his position and deny that power to his son. For whatever reason, he could not be killed by his son's own hand, so Ben had to do it.

Other random thoughts - is it possible that the man Ben produced on the island was not actually Locke's father but was an apparition, a physical manifestation of the spirit that is Man #2?

Also, most of our heroes have serious daddy issues where they either kill or are killed by their fathers or have such violent or unpleasant relationships that they are always at odds. Further evidence that the relationship between Jacob and Man #2 is father and son...

Posted by: uchideshi | May 16, 2009 12:54 AM | Report abuse

Interesting that Locke was wearing a black hoodie when he first appeared on the island after his "resurrection". Wasn't Christian also wearing a black suit every time he appeared after death? Wondering if all the Man #2 manifestations are consistent? Black smoke monster? Was Alex wearing black when she appeared in the smoke to Ben? Just wondering if they've made that consistent.

Posted by: jerasher | May 16, 2009 11:32 AM | Report abuse


With a 1954 H-bomb you are right that the tons would the the explosive, and electronics, that would drive the plutonium into a critical mass and then shape that fission explosion to implode the tritium. Today's nukes might be small enough to fit in a back pack, but back in 1954, even the fission bomb itself would have weighed tons.

In other words, the bomb was not well researched by the writers, or they simply used literary license. And for crying out loud, rigging it to detonate on impact? And hitting it with a rock did that when falling down a long hole did not? But then again, people are going back in time, polar bears turn donkey wheels, islands move, people don't age, somehow Vincent is getting a good meat diet, etc. I guess I can give them a pass on a badly contrived nuke and I will just let it go...

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 16, 2009 12:08 PM | Report abuse

...I think Jacob's "dieing" words that "they're coming", or something like that, refers to the 1977 Lostees and has something to do with the explosion in the well/hole."
Posted by: dojemc

Oh I like that idea. That dovetails well with the other idea, that the white light at the end was a time-jump-flash and not the nuke exploding. Still, Hurley has not yet read the numbers into the tape loop that Danielle will hear when she arrives on the island. So I'm thinking that our Lostees need to stay back in 1977 for at least another day. If this is the case I can see how the energy sucked in the nuke explosion and sealed the energy, making a nuke the "failsafe" Radzinsky will build into the Swan.

But that would not affect your idea. In this case season 6 will open up with our Lostees realizing they surviced the explosion, they sealed the energy in the process, and eventually end up with Chang sending them into 2007, right when Jacob says "they're coming".

And maybe it was Man#2 who had them end up in 1977 in the first place, to get rid of them, and Jacob set up circumstances to bring them back to 2007, so why Jacob is dying he tells Man#2 they're coming, meaning he has not won yet.

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 16, 2009 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Please please pardon me if these theories have been posited already but: the blast sent the 77-ers to 2007 or whenever Sun et al are. Jacob will be reborn/reincarnated as the Locke in the box (there will be two Lockes). Or maybe as Frank (the candidate??) The big battle between good and evil will commence. Jacob's diciples/soldiers include Richard (of course), Jack, kate Sawyer, Hurley, Sun, Jin, Miles, and Illana and company. All the folks he touched and then some.

Ben's wonderful monologue was a perfect set of questions about why God has forsaken christians et al insofar that he refuses to appear to us and we must follow him blindly and on pure faith.

I saw Jacob's answer to Ben on several levels: 1. it goaded Ben into "killing" him (he is not dead and will take another form) Christ was killed but arose in anew form. 2. it told Ben what he thought of him, for Ben is a mass murderer let's not forget, and if Jacob is a "good" force then surely he can not permit mass murder and all the other awful things Ben has done.

Widmore was sent from the island b/c he had something to do with the statue being partially destroyed.

There is NO doubt in my mind that next season will take place w/ everyone back in the same time frame/year and it won't be LA.

Juliet is another interesting proposition. Clearly Desmond survived the same type of blast she has encountered but her being on another tv show next year queers the deal. I could even see Jacob coming back as Juliet but her unavailability makes that scenario much less likely if not impossible.

I also think it has been bad Esau all these seasons as Jacob/Smokie et al that has been pulling all the strings with the Losties not the good Jacob.

Richard is from The Black Rock originally. Esau and Jacob have been playing with all these different washed up entities on the Island for centuries in their game of cat and mouse. It is as simple as that. The only thing for us to sort thru the last season is: b/c we have come to identify and love and root for certain characters whether they will end up in a situation that is to our satisfaction.

Who will be the skeletons in the cave? Bernard and Rose? Jack and kate? Sawyer and kate? Least likely Jin and Sun.

Posted by: LMichael1 | May 16, 2009 6:01 PM | Report abuse

can't take in all these posts yet, but that won't stop me:

Jacob weaving also reminded me of " Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive "

not that HE'S deceptive, we don't know yet (I don't think so) but most of the other characters have been at some point. Speaking of which, I STILL don't like Kate.

I think the flash is the big time jaunt that takes all of them back to the 815 crash, eyes opening on the island as if fo the first time, perhaps having all become better people along the way (at least some of them). They won't remember the details of the past, but we will, and we will see how previous experiences influence present choices.

I still see these different periods of time as different reincarnations, or rebirths, slowly but surely leading to moral progress through time. Not to get religious haha.

Posted by: camis | May 16, 2009 11:44 PM | Report abuse

eet7e - i lOVED your post, the one way up there, the one you decided to stop in order to keep your job. You're nailing down the symbols of good and evil on the show (even if all the "sides" are not clear yet). At least for me, what you're saying makes lots of sense.

Jacob touching people- also - The Hand of Fate ?

Jacob gave each character some kind of specific guidance, and with his touch he gave then reassurance, perhaps an invitation to faith.

But they still have free will, and they will go astray. And that's the really cool part - we know enough about them to know WHY Jacob addresses certain issues with each of them - he knows and we know that they will disregard the advice, end up on the island, and have to learn their lessons. or something.

Mostly, I wanted to say how envious I am that you were at the Lost Party . I live in Los Angeles, and I think it's a little unfair.

Liz and Jen (if you're still reading these increasingly dense posts) - I propose that you organize a Traveling Lost Party so we can ALL share the fun.

Posted by: camis | May 17, 2009 1:42 PM | Report abuse

In the season finale of season 4 Sawyer referred to Frank Lapidas as a Yahoo. In the season finale of season 5 Bram referred to Frank as a Yahoo also. Perhaps somebody could explain me what a Yahoo means?

Also, both in seasons 2 and 5 characters (Jack and Juliet) make the statement "Live together, die alone". Again, please, could somebody explain what the statement means.

I apologize that my questions are very silly, but english is not my native language, and I'm not sure that I understand the meaning of some of the dialogs. Thank you.

Posted by: for33 | May 17, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

Yahoo: someone who just doesn't get it, a flake, out there, oaf, weirdo...

Live together, die alone: if we stick together, we'll be ok; but if we separate, do our own thing, we'll die. United we stand, divided we fall.

hope that helps!

Posted by: smd520 | May 17, 2009 8:37 PM | Report abuse

If anyone is still reading, I had a flash the other night: when did they break the circle of ash (sand, whatever) around Jacob's cabin? I have been debating the whole "is Christian Jacob or Esau" thing. I buy the "ring of ash was designed to keep something in" argument. And Ilana seemed to expect to find Jacob, but then said someone else had been living there for a long time. So that leads me to believe that No. 2 was imprisoned there and kept in place by the ring. But at some point in our story, the ring was broken (by Hurley, I think). And I think that was after John first visited the cabin and heard the "help me," right? Was that after they saw Christian there? Because if they heard the voice and saw Christian there while the ring was still intact, and if the ring was designed to keep Esau imprisoned there, then I'm thinking that pretty much implies that the voice and Christian's appearance were manifestations of No. 2.

Posted by: laura33 | May 18, 2009 8:56 AM | Report abuse

smd520: Thank you very much for your explanations on the Yahoo word and on the phrase "live together, die alone".

Would the apparition of Ben's mother to Ben (season 3, the man behind the curtain) be a trick by man#2?

What about the apparition of Harper to Juliet and Jack in season 4, or was Harper the real Harper? Can anybody integrate what went on in the Tempest/Harper episode with the rest of the story? Was the instruction that Juliet had to stop Daniel and Charlotte Ben's idea, or was it from somebody else, perhaps man#2?

Posted by: for33 | May 18, 2009 1:56 PM | Report abuse

did anyone notice Juliet is pregnant? rose asked her to have some tea, and then bernard asked her if she was "sure" she didn't want any tea, and she patted at her stomach, as preggies often do, and said no. it ties in to her comment to Sawyer that he would have stayed with her forever because it would be the "right thing to do".

Posted by: mcsimp9299 | May 18, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

If this was mentioned before, sorry for the repeat, but I had to wait until Sunday to watch Lost.

Can someone please explain the timelines to me for the finale?

Since Anti-Locke sends Richard over to talk to time traveling Locke, then Ben, Richard and Anti-Locke are on the island BEFORE Locke brings any of the O6 back to the island. Are there two timelines going at the same time? Anti-Locke came over with Locke's dead body, so how does he bump into himself before he has even left the island or died?

Posted by: mcsimp9299 | May 18, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

I wanted to comment on an earlier post--someone wrote:

"Read your Dante!

Everyone posits that Jacob is a force for good, and Bizarro John Locke/Jacob's nemesis is a force for evil. I'm not so sure.

Jacob corrupted in the following ways:

1. Kate became a thief (greed)
2. Sawyer became wrathful but eventually just obsessed with material value (gluttony - well, arguably a bunch)
3. Jack didn't reconcile with his father (pride)
4. Locke became despondent and obsessive (acedia/discouragement)
5. Hurley got rich (extravagance? or at least gave him a guitar)
6. Sun had doubts and eventually an affair (fornication)
7. Sayyid turned bat**** crazy and became an assassin (wrath)


I thought that was insightful--but I had a different thought about the appropriate mythology here. Specifically, I don't think its Christian / Catholic mythology at all. Jacob isn't Christ aor the Antichrist. He is neither evil nor good. Jacob instead seems like a capricious, idiosyncratic diety-figure, who raises Locke from the dead after his fall but doesn't blink about Nadia's death and doesn't apologize to Ben for not caring about him. He meddles in the affairs of men for entertainment, pissing off his peers. He acts like a Greek God. I think Jacob is Apollo, and the Island is Mt. Olympus, and the other guy--who appears as Ben--is supposed to be Zeuss.

Posted by: MABfrom1960 | May 18, 2009 4:39 PM | Report abuse

I've finally had the time to read all the posts. Great job folks. I'm looking forward to 2010 and seeing this experience thru to a conclusion with you all and the show.

The show this week met my expectations for a Lost season finale. I disagree with a couple of the folks above who were disappointed by the episodes. I thought they were quite good.

Now for some comments:

1. I do think that the cabin/hut used by Rose and Bernard was the same as the cabin in which Bizzaro John Locke (BJL)/Esau/Not-Locke/Man #2/the other guy!, was emprisoned. At first I thought they were different but in watching it a second time, I believe that the same large nearby tree was in both the 1977 scene with Rose and Bernard and the 2007 scene with Elana and her group.

2. I think the prisoner in the 2004 cabin was BJL, not Jacob. I distinctly recall speculation on this blog when the show first aired that the form/person sitting in the rocking chair resembled John Locke. I didn't think so at the time but, in retrospect, we now know that it very well may have been "John Locke".

3. I agree the eyes are going to be those of Jack. It will be the third time we've seen his eyes opening in shock/surprise while laying flat on his back on the island.

4. As I posted above, I believe Jacob said to BJL that "they are coming" and by that he meant the Losties from 1977. Jacob, apparently knowing either JBL's method of operation or being able to devine the future, specifically went out into the greater world to select a group of people to "save" him. That group is the Losties in 1977.

5. I think Juliet is not going to survive the incident. She was the only one in the flashbacks in the season finale who didn't meet/have a one-on-one with Jacob. It's nice also to be right for once as I had predicted that Juliet was going to be the other major lostie to die! But, of course, I won't really know that for sure until we see who shows up on the first show of next season

6. I'm not quite sure why Elana and her group are carrying dead Locke in their box (I like the ark of the covenant theory noted above) but it may be simply because they knew his dead body is a serious inconsistency as they had previously met a supposedly living Locke on the beach where they were assembling on the smaller island. Long sentance there. They were sent to the island apparently on a mission by Jacob. What that mission is we don't know yet. But when they see a living Locke and then a dead Locke they figure out that this had to mean something in the greater scheme of their mission, whatever that mission is.

7. Finally, my prediction for how the show ends: we see Jacob and BJL on the beach in some indefinite future looking out to sea observing a (Name the vessel) heading towards the island. BJL asks Jacob, you're doing it again aren't you? Jacob, turns, smiles, and says, "maybe this time I will be able to convince you as to mankind's worth."

Posted by: dojemc | May 18, 2009 4:51 PM | Report abuse

A little bit of speculation:

It is interesting that based on what (we think) we learned on the last two episodes, a few things would seem to fall into place.

In season 3 (Left Behind, I think) Juliet and Kate, handcuffed to each other, take refuge from the monster in the vegetation. While hiding, the Monster "flashes" on Juliet's face. Let's assume that by that process the Monster identifies and "learns" all about her.

Then in season 4, in the episode where Daniel and Charlotte go to neutralize the poisson gas at The Tempest, through Harper, the Monster, Man#2, or Jacob (I personally favor the monster/man#2 option) instruct Juliet that she has to stop Daniel and Charlotte, even if she has to kill them. Harper tells Juliet that it is Ben that demands she to do so. But that is extremely unlikely, as Ben is being held prisoner by Locke at the time and, aside from being very smart, he doesn't seem to have superpowers. It would seem then that Harper was a messenger or impersonator for the monster/Man#2/Jacob to manipulate Juliet and Jack.

Another puzzle to me is that Richard Alpert has not given us any hint that he's aware that there are two sides (say, Jacob and Man#2). This is in marked contrast with Charles Widmore (who tells Locke that a war is coming) and Eloise Hawking (who tells Penny that what is at stake is far beyond their control). If this interpretation is correct, it suggests that at some point since they left the island, both Charles and Eloise might have been contacted by Jacob and/or Man#2.

An in the context of the new things we have learned, who was Mathew Abbadon? And to whom were his allegiances?

Posted by: for33 | May 19, 2009 7:51 AM | Report abuse

I think we know that Abbadon was working for Widmore. Why, we don't know. I don't think we'll see him again as he is currently on another show I believe.

I don't know how many shows they have planned for next year, though I seem to recall it could only be 16. I would hope that we finally get the backstory on Richard Alpert as well as on Widmore and Hawking. That will probably take up two of the shows. I don't think we are going to get a show on the Black Rock now since we saw in the last episode that it was just a previous version of flight 816 manipulated to the island by Jacob. I could be wrong if in the telling of Richard's backstory we find out that he was on the Black Rock. Widmore and Hawking couldn't have been on that ship as they clearly age. Finally, I am assuming that we will now get a backstory/origin story of Jacob and BJL at some point. If we don't, that would be a major failure of the story telling.

Posted by: dojemc | May 19, 2009 9:11 AM | Report abuse


Posted by: SpikeiRule | May 19, 2009 10:48 AM | Report abuse

Though it took some time, I have read through all the posts and there are some interesting theories that get you thinking! It got me thinking and i started to remember some unanswered questions from previous seasons that led me to come up with some ideas.

I like the idea that the BJL is also the smoke monster and is able to take form of dead people on the island, christian, john locke etc. This got me thinking does jacob ever take form of anyone? There was the theory someone suggested that there may be two smoke monsters, which again i liked. This would be apparent when it shows ben the error of his ways n then just leaves as apposed to the violence we have come to see from it before. Then perhaps alex, another dead person on the island who then appereared to ben after the smoke monster had left was the BJL. Jacob could have been again interfering in someone's life to warn them about doing bad things and to change whereas the BJL was then manipulating him in to telling him to do everythin BJL wanted him to do.

It then got me thinking whether the BJL takes shape as dead characters from the island and there may only be one smoke monster which can be manipulated by either BJL or jacob and that's why we see to different attitudes from the smoke monster. So then i thought, if this is true then can jacob take the form of anything else, if they both can manipulate/control the smoke monster and BJL can appear as dead people what can jacob appear as? Can he? Or does he just stay as jacob? Then i remembered... what about the animals that have appeared to people on the island over the seasons, the black horse to kate, the bird who flew by and squarked hurleys name?? Could this be jacobs actions?? Perhaps?? Something to think about anyway.

And finally the whole good john locke who is now a corpse in a box! I believe there is a very simple way of the losties finding out if he is definately dead, and that's take miles who talks to dead people to the corspe, they should also take him to the two corpses in the cave then we would know who they were as well. Miles you need to get your act together and help us answer these questions please!

Hope I've thrown some ideas up that get you thinking more.

Posted by: Clarkey1966 | May 19, 2009 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Miles is currently in 1977 and not available to talk to Locke-in-a box. And what would that help with anyway? Locke died in a hotel at Ben's hands. I don't think that will help anyone right now.

I think season 6 will open up without picking up from where they left off. I think the writers will start the story with the Balck Rock landing, giving us the histories of jacob and Man#2 and maybe even Richard, who I think is not on the Black Rock but is like jacob/Man#2 based on his name (Richardus). I think we'll learn the Black Rock came to the island specifically to get to the energy under the Swan/Orchid, and have slaves they bring to do the work. We'll see the energy found, the wheel installed and the Black Rock crew start time traveling for fun and profit. We'll see them move the island putting it under the location of the Black Rock, stranding it far inland and dooming themselves to live on the island or escape by turning the wheel. We'll see generations go by on the island until Widmore/Hawking are born. We may even see some familiar faces among the Black Rock crew, like Horus, Locke's dad, Christian, and other Lostee parents.

I think we'll then get to the nuke and jacob's murder in the second or third episode as the Black Rock legacy is fully explained and the story continues toward its end.

And let me say, I'm very happy the story will have an end. For those who remember "The Fugative", the last episode was so fulfilling and fantastic (in a 1960s TV way) that no one missed the show when it was over. That poor man had suffered, as have our Lostees. We, as the audience, want to solve this mystery and see them get back on with their lives. When it ends I think we'll feel as though we were part of it and glad to see it end. Too bad more shows are not like this. I'm still wondering if Pebbles Flintstone ever married Bam Bam. What would they be ... almost 50 now?

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 19, 2009 1:10 PM | Report abuse

Don't know if anyone mentioned this, but on the official recap of the episode, the 4-toed statue is identified as Taweret... and according to Wiki, one of her attributes was seen as one who protected against evil by restraining it.

Jacob living in the statue, a soldier for Taweret! keeping the evil one at bay....until he found a loophole!

ugh! can't wait til 2010!

Posted by: smd520 | May 20, 2009 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Is it 2010 yet?
Is it 2010 yet?
Is it 2010 yet?
Is it 2010 yet?

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 20, 2009 7:27 PM | Report abuse

Bevjims, I'm with you. I'm off to Greece and the island of Santorini, the legendary home of the Atlantis myth. I hope to find out if the ancient Mycennean culture, which was destroyed by the volcanic explosion on Santorini, included worship of some form of Taweret. They were heavily influenced by Egyptian culture at the time. Anyway, have a great summer everyone.

Posted by: dojemc | May 21, 2009 6:43 AM | Report abuse

The derivation of a Yahoo comes from "Gulliver's Travels". In the final part of the book, Gulliver travels to the Land of the Houyhnhnms, who are intelligent horses. There are also creatures there who look like humans, but have no speech or reason, and exhibit all of the baser traits of humans with non of the better traits.

I don't believe that the use of the word Yahoo in Lost is supposed to be a reference to Gulliver (though with all of the other book references, who knows). The word became a part of the English language long ago to refer to someone uncouth.

Posted by: Ghak | May 21, 2009 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Wow dojemc, you really are hooked on this show to travel looking for where the Lost island may have come from. Just keep saying:
"Its just a show"
"Its just a show"
"Its just a show"
Awww who am I kidding ... its more than a show, its a puzzle, a game, a brainteaser. Good luck on your hunt for Lost references in Santorini. See you next year!

Posted by: bevjims1 | May 21, 2009 3:56 PM | Report abuse

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