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Posted at 9:47 AM ET, 02/ 3/2010

'Lost' Dueling Analysis: 'LA X, Parts 1 and 2'

By Liz Kelly

In which Jen Chaney and I return to our friendly debate (and dissection) of TV's densest (in a good way) TV show. Read, add your thoughts in the comments section, then join us at 2 p.m. ET for the first "Lost" Hour chat of the season.

The resurrected Esau (Terry O'Quinn, right) confronts Richard Alpert (Nestor Carbonell). (ABC)

Jen: Like Jack Shephard while on his rebooted Oceanic 815 flight, I can't quite shake the feeling we've been here before. Oh, that's because we have: sitting in front of our laptops at an ungodly hour, trying to tap-tap-tap our way into making some sense of what we just saw in a two-hour season premiere of "Lost." But something is different this time.

This time we know we're in the home stretch, hurtling toward the end (sniff) of "Lost" and, hopefully, some answers. The first indication we might be getting answers? We opened the episode with that leaked clip we all had already seen -- Jack and Rose on the flight, turbulence and then... nothing. And that meant: reboot. Do-over. "It's okay," says Rose. "You can let go." That seemed like a particularly meaningful choice of words, don't you think?

Liz: Indeed it did. And, by the way, hello Jen. I know I only see you like five days a week, but yet I feel as if I haven't really talked to you since last May. It's good to be back in the air, even if we are -- again -- hurtling into oblivion. That opening scene on flight 815 was eye-opening. But before we dissect its meaning and plunge beneath the ocean to talk about the underwater Dharma village, maybe we should give a shout out to all the old, familiar faces we saw on that flight. Frogurt, anyone?

Much more after the jump!


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Jen: Not just Frogurt. Frogurt in an eye mask.

Liz: An eye mask is definitely better than a flaming arrow in the chest.

Jen: When you spotted him, did you shout: "I can't believe it's Frogurt!" Or was that just me? Actually, I didn't dwell for too long because my wandering eye was distracted by ... Boone. Sweet, sweet Boone.

Liz: I was too distracted by Charlie to let my thoughts dwell on the comely Boone for too long.

Charlie (Dominic Monaghan) is escorted to his seat after almost choking on a bag of heroin. (ABC)

Jen: And then Arzt! And Bernard! And Cindy who, notably, only gave Jack one extra vodka bottle this time around instead of two. Yes, it was like one big, happy reunion at a cruising altitude.

Liz: The nods to nostalgia, though, really illustrate the fact that this show is no longer about attracting new viewers. And that's the least of it. I can't imagine the uninitiated sitting down to a nice evening of mindless television only to be confronted with that opening sequence.

There was one super unexpected passenger, though. I think you know who I mean, brotha.

Jen: I do know who you mean. And I'd like to talk about our Constant. But I think we need to back up. We can't go further, really, without talking about the "What what WHAAA??" moment from the first few minutes of the episode. And by that I mean, when we flew through the sky, then under the sea and saw Dharma village and the statue buried underwater, not unlike the fake Oceanic 815. So, like, what the hell was that?

Liz: Well, here's my thinking: The detonation, as Juliet tells Miles (and we'll talk about later) worked. Except instead of negating one possible reality, it spawned an entirely different timeline. One that is completely outside of the action that, we now know, is still unfolding on the island. So, in our new timeline, the island is basically the lost city of Atlantis. Or that's what I choose to believe until next week when I will, no doubt, be forced to adjust my theory.

Jen: I am more or less with you there. I would just use a more specific term for what we saw: wormhole. The way the camera spiraled us through the air and water really suggested that to me. And when Jack went into the bathroom on the plane and looked in the mirror, I was quite prepared for him to bang on it, reach in and start talking to a rabbit, "Donnie Darko"-style.

Liz: I can do without that particular rabbit. But getting back to Desmond's presence on the plane. Aside from showing off that snappy new haircut, what in the world was he doing there? And where did he disappear to before the plane landed at LAX? Jack almost -- almost -- recognized him. Desmond hinted at that when he said, "Nice to meet you, or to see you again."

Jen: Is it possible that Desmond is flashing between two worlds somehow? That was the first explanation I came up with as to why he'd be there one minute and gone the next. (Oh, and did you catch Des's reading material? Salman Rushdie's "Haroun and the Sea of Stories," a book Wikipedia describes as "set in a city so old and ruinous that it has forgotten its name.")

Liz: Well, as Daniel Faraday once said, the rules don't apply to Desmond. Dang. I hate to say it, but the premiere may have spawned more questions than it answered. That only makes me a little bit nervous. I'm hoping Juliet's mid-sentence death isn't a metaphor for where this season's headed.

Jen: That's funny about Juliet. I had the same thought: "I have something important to tell you." Then ... silence. That could be "Lost" in a nutshell, but I hope not. We did get a couple of questions answered.

We know now for a fact that the Man in Black (or as we’ll call him, MIB) assumed Locke's spirit. And I think it's fairly clear that he didn't do that until after Locke died, which hopefully will end all this "Locke's Been MIB this Whole Time!" nonsense. And we also know now that MIB = Smoky. Also, by my count we are now dealing with three John Lockes.

Liz: You're right. Dead island John, John possessed by Esau and LAX John.

Jen: And may I say that Terry O'Quinn is handling it beautifully? Granted, the corpse version is less of an acting challenge than the other two. But the contrast between Oceanic Airlines Locke and MIB Locke is pretty amazing.

What do you suppose MIB Locke meant when he said he wants the opposite of John, that he wants to go home? Could he mean he wants to go back to the temple?

Liz: That was my assumption, hence the rushing around done by the new Others to get their gunpowder perimeter in place. However, I'm wondering if perhaps Sayid isn't just the man to stop MIB Locke. After all, Jacob was pretty insistent that Hurley get Sayid to that temple. And, hey, if MIB can possess the body of a dead man, why not Jacob?

Jen: Well, Sayid certainly seemed like the man on the plane, when Jack needed help with ODing Charlie. "May I be of assistance?" Then BAM! He kicks in the bathroom door.

Our boy Ben Linus seems pretty undone by all this MIB business. When he saw dead Locke, I think he finally got the manipulative dishonesty scared out of him. I was still harboring a faint glimmer that somehow Ben really was clued into a master plan we didn't see. But it certainly doesn't seem that way. His world has been rocked.

Liz: Yes, and can I say that seeing Ben completely at sea (as it were), I've never liked him more?

But wait -- let's get back to Locke for a moment. We touched on MIB Locke on island, but what of John Locke, box company clerk, who landed safely at LAX and made the acquaintance of a very generous spinal surgeon?

Jen: He did his walkabout, unless of course he was fibbing to Boone. But he was still in that wheelchair. And I thought it was interesting that once John met Jack, John insisted that his condition was irreversible. And it was Jack who acted as man of faith and said, "Nothing is irreversible."

Liz: I'm thinking he was fibbing to Boone in an attempt to mess with our heads for just a little while longer. Though there was a distinct difference in this John Locke. The thwarted John Locke of yesteryear was weak, undone by his disability and his horrible history with dad. This John Locke seemed to be coming from a place of peace and power. When he talked to Jack about the airline not losing his father, but his body, he sounded like island John -- the island John who believed he had a purpose, a calling.

Jen: I mostly agree. But during the slow-mo montage of people deboarding the plane, when he was getting placed back into his wheelchair, he looked so incredibly sad. I think that's why Jack reached out to him later, because he sensed how unhappy he was.

By the way, I really appreciated the small allusions back to season one. The echoes of that first season were clear in both worlds, in the plane reality and the island one.

Charlie ODing on the plane took us back to S1. So did the presence (via PA) of Capt. Norris, our pilot. And I thought Boone's "Are you pulling my leg?" comment was a bit cheeky, considering what happened to Boone's leg on the island, thanks to Locke insisting he go up on that cliff.

Liz: Ooh, good catch re: Boone. Another: Boone's "I'm sticking with you if this plane goes down" comment to Locke.

Jen: Yes. And when Jack was trying to pump air into poor Sayid's chest toward the end of the episode? The dialogue between he and Kate was identical to the conversation they had when Jack tried to resuscitate Charlie. So it seems like "Lost" is telling us, you can change things. But also: history repeats itself.

Liz: True -- but this time Jack did listen to Kate and stop.

Jen: Anyway, they both wound up waking up.

Liz: True, though I think we can agree that Sayid was pretty dead before his return to the world of the living.

Sawyer (Josh Holloway) and Juliet (Elizabeth Mitchell) share a final moment. (ABC)

Jen: Should we talk about Juliet? And if so, can someone explain how she survived a bomb explosion and being buried under 80,000 tons of metal?

Liz: Oh I can explain that. Easy peasy. It's called the magic of TV. And in this case, I think maybe she was allowed to live a few minutes too long.

After last season's ultra-heart-wrenching finale when she and Sawyer shared such a passionate goodbye moment, well, tonight's version just didn't stack up. Don't get me wrong -- it was swell to see Elizabeth Mitchell again and I know she's a busy bee, what with "V" and all. But her presence didn't really add much to the narrative. All it did was remind me how well they did the goodbye at the end of season 5.

Jen: I agree. If she survived that, then let her survive for at least a full episode. To revive her and then immediately have her die again took the punch out of what we saw last season.

Liz: So, apparently Juliet's important message for Sawyer was "It worked." But maybe she'd have been better off qualifying that? I'm thinking "It kinda worked" would have been more accurate.

Jen: Do you think that's all Miles heard? And how the heck does Juliet know?

Liz: Good question -- because the ground seemed to heave a bit and rumble when Miles was, umm, communing. Something we haven't seen happen in the past when Miles is doing his listening to dead conversations.

Jen: I don't know. We may have to wait for someone to parse the audio of that scene before we can make a call as to whether something else was happening there.

Liz: Speaking of dead people, Hurley is still seeing them. Or at least one -- Jacob.

Jen: Which makes me wonder if that guy was ever really hallucinating. Maybe Dave really existed. But here's a better question: Why did Jacob come to Hurley with the guitar case and the all-important Ankh it contained?

Liz: Because Jorge Garcia needed to be placed on that island for something more than comic relief? Because he knew that once Hurley sets his mind to something, he's practically impossible to pull off mission? Or Because Hurley was the least likely Lostie to slow down Jacob with a bunch of questions about "who are you" and "why are we here" and "when's the next sub out?"

Jen: I don't know, I have to think there's more to it than that. I don't know what yet. In any event, Hurley got everybody to the temple, which allowed us to meet ... Hiroyuki Sanada and John Hawkes! Oh, and Cindy in weirdly retro clothing!

Liz: Glad you brought that up. So are we to believe that these new others -- the hippy dippie back-to-nature crew that's been guarding the temple -- is the same group of clean cut scouts who left Dharma-ville with Ben two seasons ago? And is it just me or did that temple have distinct Joseph Conrad/"Apocalypse Now" overtones?

Jen: I have to be honest, I had a hard time adjusting to the temple business. It felt weird. I'm not sure I can take any more new characters at this stage in the game. But to your "Apocalypse" point, this is the book that our heroes discovered when they entered the temple. According to Dark UFO, the title references this biblical verse: "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

So that sounds promising.

Liz: It also says the book was penned by one "John the Silent." Maybe that can be our handle for dead beach John.

So, what haven't we touched on, Jen? How about that missing coffin -- whither the body of Christian Shephard?

Jen: That seemed pretty important, especially in light of what a big deal it was for Locke's body to be on the Ajira flight. Without Christian's corpse on the flight, the plane didn't crash. I don't know that there is a causal relationship there, but if MIB or Jacob or the island attaches itself to bodies sans souls, well, maybe that's got something to do with how people wind up on the island. Which would suggest that our Losties lives were changed and their flight didn't go down, ultimately, because of poor airline service.

Liz: Well, poor airline service can indeed be life-changing. So, what say we wrap this up and table the discussion until this afternoon's 2 p.m. "Lost" Hour chat?

Jen: You're sick of talking to me, aren't you? You wish I was more like John the Silent ... or Jen the Silent.

Liz: It does have a ring to it...

Nah, I'm just interested in what everyone else's take is on what we've already talked about, plus some items we haven't -- like the return of dark Sawyer and whether or not Jack will be able to fix off-island John Locke.

So, until 2 p.m.?

Jen: See you there.


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By Liz Kelly  | February 3, 2010; 9:47 AM ET
Categories:  Lost  
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Since I'm first I guess I'll say it. Last night's epiosode was a huge letdown. It fact is stunk. As we enter the final season, they completely change thing up again and now we have two present day realities, or is LAX actually the future. Ugh. And why the heck did they introduce more characters at the temple. The Japanese guy was dumb. Can't they just answer the 100 outstanding questions instead of creating new ones.

Posted by: buffysummers | February 3, 2010 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Regarding "Lost"... Remember how Cindy the stewardess said "They're from the first plane" or something to that effect when Hurley et al showed up at the temple? I heard that and thought "Wait, there's another plane that crashes? There has to be another one if 815 was the 1st." So, as you said, if the new Flight 815 didn't crash because Jack's father's body wasn't onboard, that would have to mean that the flight that DOES end up with his body should crash on the island. So, maybe, that plane would be the second or whatever number plane to crash on the island?

Posted by: melindaboyd | February 3, 2010 10:21 AM | Report abuse

See, my thought was that Christian's body was originally on flight 815, but went to the island, not unlike how Kate, Hurley, and Jack "disappeared" from the later flight and went back to the 70's. I just figured his body vanished.

Posted by: Osteph | February 3, 2010 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Juliet knew "it worked" because she was somehow able to flash to the other reality. Before she died, she asked Sawyer if he'd like to get coffee sometime. He thought she was delirious, but it seems to me she was just talking to another (LAX) Sawyer. Now how she's in L.A. and not in the Dharma village, that's another question.

Posted by: kimmykat13 | February 3, 2010 10:44 AM | Report abuse

@melindaboyd - No, the first plane = the Oceanic flight, the second plane is the Ajira flight.

Posted by: Corn_Laden | February 3, 2010 10:47 AM | Report abuse

@Corn_Laden - ahhhhhhhhh... Thanks. But, dang, I thought I was on to something! Oh well.

Posted by: melindaboyd | February 3, 2010 10:50 AM | Report abuse

Wait, there's another plane that crashes? There has to be another one if 815 was the 1st."
umm or the plane with dead locke is the second one

Posted by: spg2 | February 3, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

re: Desmond on flight 815. Why shouldn't he be there? Since in that parallel timeline the Island appears to have been sunk, Desmond would have been able to complete his sailing race around the world and wouldn't be trapped on the Island.

Also, why the confusion about the "first plane"? As spg2 points out, Ajira 316 is the second plane.

Posted by: Ghak | February 3, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

About LAX Hurley, He said he was lucky, bad things don’t happen to him. So because the past changed, there wasn’t a guy in the mental ward with him muttering the numbers, because there was never a swan station to type the numbers in, etc. So did he still use those particular numbers they just aren’t cursed now, if so where did he get them from, or did he just use random numbers?

Posted by: spg2 | February 3, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

Did Juilet survive the bomb going off, or did they all time travel back to the present before it exploded, creating our two realities?

Posted by: dclibrarian | February 3, 2010 10:59 AM | Report abuse

Hello everyone. Just throwing it out there as well, not so impressed with the first episode.

However, I'm not buying the "two realities" bit. I agree that when Juliet said "it worked" she meant the bomb. If this is true (which I think it is) that means that the plane landed safely in LAX- hence the scenes from the episode not on the island.

I think that the bomb worked and the plane landed. However, the entire show is based on the fact that it is the group's destiny to be on the island. I am thinking that they only outsmarted the island a little bit. I think that this other story line is their new past (taking place in 2004), but eventually the entire group will end up back on a plane (Oceanic 815), just at a later time in their lives.

J.J. said there would be no alternative time lines, so maybe there are not alternative time lines.

So I am thinking that once they all get back on a plane, and crash on the island (can't explain why its under water), the same order of events will happen.

I hope this makes sense. Basically, my theory is:

-bomb worked
-send them back to 2004, landed safely
-will eventually get back on 815
-the same order of events will unfold on the island because it is their destiny to be there

Posted by: lilmissgiggles | February 3, 2010 11:02 AM | Report abuse

lil: that's an interesting theory. Although, I've racked my brain trying to figure out why we had the two different storylines, I agree that they are probably not two different timelines but more like two different points in time.

Posted by: ropespin | February 3, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

I'm trying not to be too thick here - but where was Boone's sister... 'the hot blonde', as my husband put it. How could she NOT have been on the plane. I heard him say he tried to get her out of a bad relationship but she didn't want to leave, but that is completely changing who was on the plane. And that's not right, right?
I don't know. It's just too damn much to think about.

Posted by: krazyj2472002 | February 3, 2010 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Giggles may be on to something, like Mrs. Hawking told Desmond, the universe will course correct.

But I don't like one tiny bit any hint of a Pam Ewing Dream scenario.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 11:21 AM | Report abuse

Thanks, Jen and Liz. On Des and Jack recognizing each other, that's because they actually had met while step running at the stadium.

Good point lilmiss; there aren't necessarily two timelines since the two scenes we saw last night were from 2007 and 2004 respectively.

I don't really think the smoke monster, Esau, regards the Temple as his home he can't find a way back to. Looks to me more like Esau (and Jacob) are extraterrestrials stranded on Earth, regarded by the ancients as gods. Esau wants to go back home, which is a lot further away than a few hundred feet.

By what justification is Esau disaappointed in everyone? Most of those addressed are recent Ajira crash victims, and most of the rest are Jacob's people.

Looks like Sayid's body will be inhabited by Jacob's spirit the way Locke's was taken over by Esau.

Are we supposed to think Shannon was in fact not on the plane? There was no sign of her, and Boone's words to Locke certainly implued she wasn't.

Posted by: UniqueID | February 3, 2010 11:28 AM | Report abuse

As for the latest alternate reality, just like we now have an 815-B in addition to the original 815-A universe, remember that going back to 1970s Dharmaville was not simply going back in time -- it created an entirely new timeline, so that we had the original 1970s Dharmaville without LaFluer, et al., and then we had the new version with them in it.

In any event, the idea of alternate universes, of "multiverses," has long been postulated in quantum mechanics -- or so Daniel would tell us if he were still around. For every possible outcome to an event, a new reality is created to account for that outcome.

We might be moving into Sliders territory. But if people start showing up with goatees, then we know that it is an evil parallel universe.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 11:31 AM | Report abuse

Cuse and Lindelof were on Jimmy Kimmel last night. Kimmel asked them questions and to answer whether they were a coincidence or not. Jack and Rose's roles were reversed, as Rose was comforting Jack, when in Season 1 he told Rose everything would be ok. Not a coincidence. It was not a coincidence that Shannon was not on the plane. Also, in an EW article... they made a point that Eko, Libby, and Ana Lucia are not seen on the plane.

Posted by: needmoredesmond | February 3, 2010 11:34 AM | Report abuse

It's really a shame that people are saying they didn't enjoy the first episode. I thought it was excellent. Give this season some time, people! I don't think Oceanic 815 landing in LAX is just an alternate reality as many are suggesting. There's much more going on here. I'm willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt that the LAX storyline is going somewhere and not just an excuse to bring back Charlie, Boone, etc.

The most interesting question of the episode revolves around Desmond. If Juliet destroyed the negative energy in 1977 and the hatch was never constructed, does this mean somehow that Desmond never took his boat race and therefore never reached the island? It would make sense then that Jack had not met Desmond before. But then why did he disappear?

Posted by: DCUMD | February 3, 2010 11:39 AM | Report abuse

I figure Desmond must be hopping from one world to another; they seemed to make a fuss about him mysteriously appearing and disappearing on the airplane...

Posted by: csteiger | February 3, 2010 11:40 AM | Report abuse

what is the timeline for the two alternative stories. I know th LAX is still Spe 22nd 2004. but what about on Island.. we know its after the datch was built and exploded (via desmond), but is it 2004 or 2007? or 2010?

Posted by: thetruckguy | February 3, 2010 11:43 AM | Report abuse

What about Locke aka MIB saying to Richard "haven't seen you since you were in chains". Suppose he was on the black rock? Suppose the black rock was a prison ship headed to Australia? It'd fit the timeline, since a ship with Dynamite and chained people had to be in the late 1800's. That would also fit with it being based in Portsmouth. Just a thought.

Posted by: Section406 | February 3, 2010 11:46 AM | Report abuse

What about Michael and Walt? I didn't see them on the plane either...

Posted by: No_Name | February 3, 2010 11:46 AM | Report abuse

By what justification is MIB disappointed in everyone?

Because they did not rise up in rebellion against his enemy Jacob.

And to call him "Esau" is really, really, really a disservice. Esau was not evil, he was merely the foolish brother of Jacob. This guy is EVIL. Call him Anti-Jacob, call him Not-Locke, call him Smokie, call him MIB, call him Satan (the Adversary), but don't call him "Esau" -- that name doesn't fit.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 11:48 AM | Report abuse

Desmond met Jack before the first Oceanic 815 flight, at the stadium at night (they were running)when Jack was younger, so they did meet before. This new time line keeps some of the previous events the same, but change others, (Hurley thinks he's lucky not cursed, even in the first show he thought he was cursed).

Juliet was connecting with her other self in the new timeline (we'll see her asking Sawyer to get coffee in the new timeline in a future episode), but the scene with Sawyer was long and drawn out, and was just to show there is a connection between the timelines. She was closest to the blast so she had the best connection between the two.

When Jacob told MIB john that "the others were coming" MIB John actually looked scared. So he's trying to go back home, but does he need to go back before the others get there?

Posted by: KevinAF | February 3, 2010 11:51 AM | Report abuse

Richard seems to be much, much, much older than the Black Rock.

But he definitely knows MIB -- and he definitely isn't a fan.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 11:51 AM | Report abuse

@ooyah32: I agree about the 815a and 815b. But NOT about the 1977a and 1977b. There was only one 1977, we assumed there was no La Fluer and gang involved since we didnt know, but in the one and only 1977m La Fluer and gang were involved. Other wise how would Ben have gotten to the others in the first place (to be treated and revived with sideeffects at the temple). How would Charlotte remember in 2007 that Daniel (in 1977) had warned her not to get back. Dr Chang in the videos has a fractured hand (fractured at the time of 1977 hydrogen bomb blast).. one 1977. two 815. :)

Posted by: thetruckguy | February 3, 2010 11:52 AM | Report abuse

am trying to compile a list.. help me with the list.

a list of who were not on the plane who were supposed to be.

1. The Group of Tailes.
2. Shanon.
3. Walt
4. Michael.
5. Nikki?
6. Paulo?
7. ???

Posted by: thetruckguy | February 3, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

We have established that MIB was in the cabin and Jacob was in the foot. Ben had taken Locke to see “Jacob” in the cabin a few seasons ago. Is that where Ben thought Jacob was or was Ben fooling Locke. Did Richard tell Ben that Jacob was in the cabin? Did Richard tell Ben that Jacob was in the foot? Or does none of that matter since Jacob never wanted to see Ben? If taking Locke to the cabin was a lie, what did Ben think was in the cabin? Richard (according to last night’s show) knows both Jacob and MIB. Was it not part of his advisor duty to inform the current leader of the Others (Widmore, Hawkings, or Ben) about MIB? I’m sure many of these answers have been spelled out, but I am having trouble recalling. It seems as if Richard is an important link.

Posted by: vaphotogal | February 3, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

ooyah, I was merely following common usage here (see the caption on the top photo) in referring to Jacob's enemy as Esau. It's convenient shorthand even though I too am not crazy about the name. Though I don't necessarily agree that this being is evil, evil (and he may not be any worse than Jacob).

I also agree with the skeptic who questioned you claim that there is necessarily an "original" 1977 that didn't include LaFleur. AFAWK, there may only be one 1974-1977 period, and it always had LaFleur.

Posted by: UniqueID | February 3, 2010 12:10 PM | Report abuse

There was no mention of the blood on Jack's neck when he looked at himself in the mirror on the plane. What do you think that is all about?

Posted by: ronphack | February 3, 2010 12:16 PM | Report abuse

Per the two timelines:

Remember the orientation "out-take" of the Orchid station? When the two bunnies were side by side and Chang freaked out?

I'm wondering if by blowing up the pocket, we ended up with two realities, a la the two bunnies.

Posted by: Chasmosaur1 | February 3, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Ok, first post too long, so will divide it up. The things that struck me last night were both Esau-related. First, when they flashed back to the Jacob/Esau conversation, where Esau's lecturing Jacob that it's always the same, that Jacob always brings people, and they always end up fighting, etc. And Jacob says something like, it only ends once, anything up until then is just progress. And second, when Esau says that Locke is the only one who understood just how pitiful and meaningless his life off the island is.

At the outset, I instinctively distrust anything that Esau says. Maybe the theme of the season is that their lives off-island really are pitiful and insignificant, and the 2004 folks will have to wake up to that and find their way back to the island. But I doubt it. Esau strikes me very much as the old vision of Satan: not some big red fire-breathing demon, but the subtle persuader -- the one who says things that sound appealing and "right," who uses people's baser nature to entice them to make self-destructive decisions. His whole just wanting to get home thing echoed Satan in Milton's "Paradise Lost." Which sort of fits in with the whole struggle between Jacob and Esau, with the humans as relatively insignificant peons.

So, if Esau's wrong, then perhaps the point of the season is for them to discover that their "real" lives do have meaning. Hypothesizing in the absence of facts: I am thinking that, now that Jacob is dead, the guys have one last chance to get it right on the island -- to not fight, to not get torn apart by petty disputes, but to figure things out the way Jacob had always had faith that they would. And that, in turn, proves Jacob's faith in humanity, and in some way frees their own better nature. Which will then somehow give them to get a second chance at their real lives, to find real meaning and connection there.

Posted by: laura33 | February 3, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

I was glad to see Claire again, but it prompts another question we get to revisit now: What is Claire going to do with Aaron? Remember, she was on her way to LA to give Aaron up for adoption to a couple the psychic had selected for her. Now she's Kate's hostage in a cab. I wonder if Kate will end up with Aaron in this revised reality too?

And, do you think Desmond boarded the plane in Sydney, or did he appear on it mid-flight?

And, Kate said the "hatch" looked like it did after Desmond blew it up, which places them in 2007, right? Remind me again how Desmond blew up the hatch? Is she referring to the events that caused Oceanic 815 to crash, or the time that left Desmond naked and seeing the future, or some other event I'm forgetting about? And since there's obviously a hatch, doesn't that mean that the Darma folks did continue building it after all, perhaps to contain the aftermath of the hydrogen bomb? How does THAT fit with the fact that Kate/Jack/Etc just found it recently exploded in 2007?

Posted by: LostInSeattle | February 3, 2010 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Part 2: So if they get it right on the island in 2007, they go back to the beginning in 2004, not actually remembering their time on the island, but fundamentally changed in a way to take advantage of the do-over. Thus, Jack reaching out to Locke at the end and giving his card -- very out of character for the "old" Jack, who was completely caught up in himself. But there are no guarantees; as we saw at the end of last season, Jacob is all about free will, so some will make the right choices and others the wrong ones. So, really, we have the same story playing out in two different settings in parallel: on-island in 2007, and off-island in 2004; but in both cases, it's all about making the right decisions, choosing to build up instead of tear down.

I still have no clue how they're going to wrap the 2007 timeline back with the 2004 one. I guess I was envisioning the bomb as the clean "reset," which starts everything over again, and sends us all back to a single timeline (whenever that is). But based on last night's 2007 story, it looks like the bomb just started that process -- it opened up the door, but now they still have to find a way to make the right choices on the island to "earn" their second chance at home.

And I can't even remotely explain the island at the bottom of the ocean in 2004. Unless their success in 2007 truly "ended it," as Jacob indicated, which then permanently closed the door to the island.

Also, anyone else think that the group at the temple came from the Black Rock, as supplemented by various other later arrivals?

Posted by: laura33 | February 3, 2010 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Why does Juliet say "it worked" instead of "it kinda worked"? I think it's because she's in the alternative timeline too. That moment when she talks about getting coffee and going Dutch was so reminiscent of Charlotte's "I can't have chocolate before dinner" that I think whatever happened (happened) and somehow got her back into the real world - with Sawyer? - too in the parallel universe. Which would mean we might see her again - yey!

I blog about Lost at - check us out!

Posted by: themothchase | February 3, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Maybe the big secret is just that the show stinks.

Posted by: vigor | February 3, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

As a Not-A-Lost fan, I went ahead and read this anyway. (Or, to be honest, read a bit, then scanned a bit, then drifted out).

Now I know EXACTLY how wifey feels when I get all StarWars-y on her.

Posted by: molsonmich | February 3, 2010 12:34 PM | Report abuse

Did anyone else notice that we didn't see Claire on the plane/only in the cab at the airport? It was also unclear if she was pregnant.

And I totally teared up at Juliet's second death scene. She is my favorite character.

Posted by: js2225 | February 3, 2010 12:37 PM | Report abuse

I think that Desmond disappeared because Jack and Sayid saved Charlie. Charlie said "I was supposed to die". On-island, he was, and Des tried to take his place, but it didn't work. This time, Charlie living meant Desmond couldn't. We don't see Desmond after Charlie is revived. Like the theory of Des bouncing between the two; maybe Charlie and Des can't be in the same place/time, so charlie living bounces Desmond to the other time.

Posted by: montinator | February 3, 2010 12:38 PM | Report abuse

While returning from overseas last week, I was laying-over in LA and viewing late night TV and got a Lost show I had not seen. In involved Hurly and his dad (Cheech Marin) and the car he restored for Hurly. Unfortunately, jet lag got me before the end. Did I miss an episode last year or was this a new episode posted early?

Posted by: michaelkpilgrim | February 3, 2010 12:40 PM | Report abuse

The revelation of MIB as smokie monster got me wondering about who smokey has killed previously and why. Eko -- who wasn't afraid of the smoke monster (perhaps because of his walking stick etched with bible verses) -- is the only person I can remember. Anyone else? You may recall that smokey tried to suck Locke down into a hole in either season 1 or 2 as well. Am I reading too much into this?

Posted by: clw96 | February 3, 2010 12:41 PM | Report abuse

When I heard Fake Locke tell Ben "I just want to go home" I thought of a fallen angel, wanting to get back to Heaven.

Posted by: PolarBear75 | February 3, 2010 12:45 PM | Report abuse

Had a long post, but thought it clear of any offending pieces. Don't know if I can recreate it, but maybe I'll save it for the 2 PM deal.

Posted by: lloydamy | February 3, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

Well, that'll teach me to use the preview function.

I look forward to the 2 PM discussion, if I can swing it. I'm new to this board, but not to Lost and have been an ardent follower of Doc Jensen's screeds in

The teasers up to now have shown both rebooted (Alternate) timeline and current (Prime) timeline, so I speculated recently that the parallel timelines construct is the new narrative device for showing us mythology and character development - i.e., just as flashback gave way to flash forward which gave way to two time periods, two time periods now gives way to two timelines. Since it is the Losties in the Prime timeline in which we have become emotionally invested, I assume that it is the one that will matter most going forward. However, we'll presumably get to see lost potential paths for the Losties, which will be revealing of mythology and character development.

Both Jack's and Juliet's cross-over moments (his on the Alternate timeline plane and hers in the Prime timeline) are the deja vu moments Fringe has described as instances when a person becomes subconsciously aware of other paths that may have been taken by other quantum instances of themselves. Juliet's, I believe will be revealed to be an upcoming coffee-sharing moment, hopefully with Sawyer.

With respect, Liz, I believe the bomb did not create the Alternate timeline because this would violate the various limitations of the grandfather paradox of time travel. I think, instead, Dharma penetrated the EM energy pocket and without the nuke to bleed off the energy until the hatch could be built, the Island blew up, and that is why it sank. The turbulence felt was the lingering effects of that event over the airspace of the now-sunk Island.

This means that the Alternate timeline has been underway since that timeline's 1977, so subtle differences have crept in, e.g., Desmond being on the flight since the Island was not there to prevent him from completing his circumnavigation of the globe journey in Penny's boat. Others will be revealed, I suspect, as we go.

What is really left unexplained, and annoyingly so for me, is the reason for the Jacob touches. I mean, the Prime Past Losties moved through time to the Prime Present, but only most of those were touched by Jacob. So, seemingly, the touches did not matter for their return and may not matter for their presence in the Prime timeline, much to the chagrin of many, I suspect. Since the Island was destroyed in the Alternate timeline, it seems to me that none of the touches could have been there, so I have no answer here.

Finally, I suspect that the Alternate timeline will prove to be disastrous for the world even though it has so far proved more/less decent for the Alternate Losties. I say this because I think Dharma started some kind of doomsday process when it inadvertently destroyed the Island.

Posted by: lloydamy | February 3, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

As for Boone explaining why his sister was not on the plane:

"Originally, Shannon was set to make an appearance, but Maggie Grace was unable to film any scenes due to her busy schedule. Thus, the backstory was rewritten to accommodate this."

[from lostpedia]

Posted by: dpnation | February 3, 2010 12:52 PM | Report abuse

@oohyah 11:31

Many Universes is hardly accepted in QM, and I would be incredibly disappointed if that's the way the writers went. As you say, that's Sliders territory, and I think such a move cheapens the whole show. Much more interesting would be a storyline based on John Bell's support for Hidden Variables, in which locality is abandoned to preserve reality. Locality is basically the idea that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. If something could travel faster than the speed of light, then it would go back in time. Means of faster than light travel (wormholes, black holes, etc) could create windows into the past, and I think that's the idea the writers are generally going for (whether they know it or not). Hence I think we're firmly in Bohmian Mechanics (Hidden Variables) here as opposed to some sort of Multiverse theory. There's obviously a tie to the Bohr idea of the importance of consciousness, though, as the same people had to be present on the plane to get back to the island, and the flashing from last season only transported specific people rather than everyone. So I guess that's some Copenhagen, too. As a writing device, though, both Hidden Variables and Copenhagen provide a much more compelling basis than a Multiverse approach, because the Multiverse interpretation suggests that there are infinitely many other realities, and we just happen to be looking at one (or maybe 3 or 4 as you say) of them. To me, that takes the drama out of the show. I want to believe that there's only one Desmond and one Penny, only one Sawyer and one Juliet, and only one Jack and one Kate, and we just end up seeing them at different points on their individual timelines. But, after last night's episode, I agree it does seem likely that the writers are heading in the direction of alternate realities, and I am only intrigued so far as I expect them to somehow straighten it all out in the end.

Posted by: crashinghero | February 3, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Count me among those bugged by Juliet's death take two.
And don't get me wrong, Sawyer is very HOT but he and his "I stab you with my eyes" glares were getting a bit annoying.

Posted by: hodie | February 3, 2010 1:10 PM | Report abuse

@clw96 - I kind of assumed there were 2 smokies, one each for Jacob and MIB. I assumed that the Smokie who killed Eko was not the one that he had earlier stared down.

Posted by: HardyW | February 3, 2010 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Juliet knew "it worked" because she was somehow able to flash to the other reality. Before she died, she asked Sawyer if he'd like to get coffee sometime. He thought she was delirious, but it seems to me she was just talking to another (LAX) Sawyer. Now how she's in L.A. and not in the Dharma village, that's another question.

Posted by: kimmykat13 | February 3, 2010 10:44 AM | Report abuse

KIMMYKAT ur amazing and my new hero for figuring that out!!! Very well done (sorry if it's Sooo obvious to others but it wasn't for me) but that was a great explanation - and probably the correct one too.

In the beginning I too felt a lil "meh" about the season premiere (possibly due to sky high expectations) but it won me over by the end of the 2nd episode. I was disappointed there was no scene of Michael and Walt on the plane - but that is to be expected as Walt's actor is an adult now.

Questions left screaming at the TV: WHO IS F-LOCKE !?!?!?! RICHARD ALPERT IN CHAINS?!! Why could Jacob leave the island but F-Locke/MIB could not? Can't wait for the impending reveal! Any one got any theories to suggest on this in the meantime?

Posted by: abdc | February 3, 2010 1:15 PM | Report abuse

"I can't believe it's Frogurt!"

Made me almost spit my coffee...

Posted by: susannajoy | February 3, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

Richard is much older than we thought. I think the reference to him being in chains is a reference to Prometheus. Here is the beginning of the entry from Wikipedia: "He was a champion of human-kind known for his wily intelligence, who stole fire from Zeus and gave it to mortals.Zeus then punished him for his crime by having him bound to a rock while a great eagle ate his liver every day only to have it grow back to be eaten again the next day. His myth has been treated by a number of ancient sources, in which Prometheus is credited with – or blamed for – playing a pivotal role in the early history of humankind." Sounds like our Richard and why he might have been terrified that MIB was on the loose.

Posted by: afar2988 | February 3, 2010 1:25 PM | Report abuse

Folks, Desmond did not disappear from the plane. He simply went back to his seat during the save Charlie drama. Remember, he only came up to sit with Jack b/c the guy next to him was snoring. No mystery there. The mystery is why was Desmond on the flight??

Posted by: hodie | February 3, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

We didn't see Walt, Michael, Shannon, Eko, Libby, Nikki, Paulo Christian (in the casket) and Ana Lucia. It's possible they were on the plane somewhere and just not seen yet-- although Boone gives us an excuse for Shannon, and the casket Jack found in the first season was empty, so is it possible Christain wasn't on the first plane either? Claire was seen after the fact but was presumably on the plane.

Also, the Nigerian drug-runners plane was the first plane--or doesn't it count as a plane to the Lost writers?

I suspect that when the people at LAX in 2004, reach 2007, and the people on the island succeed in defeating evil, there will only be one timeline again. Will the relatively good/happy timeline prevail (LAX 2004) or will the painful timeline prevail (2007 on the island)?

Posted by: KevinAF | February 3, 2010 1:39 PM | Report abuse

Hodie, good call on the "no mystery to Desmond's disappearance" issue. Makes perfect sense.

Posted by: LostInSeattle | February 3, 2010 1:44 PM | Report abuse

I just want to know how the marshal found Kate a women's restroom--in LAX no less!--that didn't have a single person in it.

Posted by: MrDarwin | February 3, 2010 1:46 PM | Report abuse

I'd be really disappointed if the LAX Lost was the new reality, though it probably is. The writers of Lost like to start the season in medias res (i.e. start by telling the story from midpoint and show how we got there)and we'll spend half the season to see how we get to LAX reality from "current" MIB reality. Then the rest of the series will be spent on how the Losties get out of their current predicaments. Sound familiar? JJA and his writers used the same device on the Star Trek movie last year. With the new reality, it seems my emotionial investment and wasted brain cells following the past story arcs are for naught -- I like the idea of a time/reality jumping Desmond so I'm holding out for that.

Posted by: Cal0074 | February 3, 2010 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Who says that Desmond was ever on the plane?

Jack?? Ha! We all know how reliable he is. No one else claimed to see Desmond. In fact, they made a point of Rose saying that she was asleep or something like that.

Now, I'm sure that Jack saw him, I'm just not sure that he was actually there.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 1:55 PM | Report abuse

Quote:"JJA and his writers used the same device on the Star Trek movie last year. "

Sorry, I meant using the plot device of resetting the former reality to create a new reality with the same characters in altered circumstances.

Posted by: Cal0074 | February 3, 2010 2:03 PM | Report abuse

Like I insinuated with the Pam Ewing Dream comment, Brian said the same thing to Stewie, that ending it with a "never mind" would be like giving a big middle finger to fans.

As for JJ Abrams -- is he back in the picture? WHY?? Get him the hell away from the series.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 2:03 PM | Report abuse

I think that Jack would have always been interested in checking out Locke's back injury. Spines are his specialization, and he is driven to fix things.

Posted by: Ghak | February 3, 2010 2:09 PM | Report abuse


So, you're saying that Ben Linus just isn't as good an actor as Michael Emerson?

Posted by: JMosesBrowning | February 3, 2010 2:15 PM | Report abuse

Some of the "changes" in last night's flight 815 seemed interesting including one that Liz and Jen hit on, "...Cindy who, notably, only gave Jack one extra vodka bottle this time around instead of two. "

If you hearken back to the pilot ep. The second bottle was used to sterilize Jack's wounds so Kate could stitch him up. No need for the extra bottle here.

I was surprised that there hasn't been more talk about Jack's "neck wound" aboard 815. It seems like he doesn't know where it came from. I've cut my self shaving before but the blood stops after a while. That looks like it was still fresh.

Also what was the deal with the water in the temple? It appears that the "other others" thought that it should've been clear but it was red (red=blood=Jacob's dead). So if that's the case, we can make the jump that Sayid revived as "Jacob" (as mentioned earlier).

Finally...thank's MrDarwin. I said the same thing to my wife. Kate should be allowed to go free if for nothing else then this guy is the worst special agent since inspector gadget. Would you believe....

Posted by: deltaxi | February 3, 2010 2:16 PM | Report abuse

I found the show really disappointing. Even the sets were weak.

That said, there were a few nice touches I appreciated like Charlie's "I was supposed to die" comment. I guess LAX was a possible world they created; both are going on at once.

There was an episode of Charmed (I know, I know) with some kind of place so magical both evil and good recognized it couldn't be opened to the world. So they each sent a rep to guard it. The two guardians basically sat around and played chess all day. Occasionally the bad angel would try to overthrow the good one. That's how I'm seeing the Jacob & Fake-Locke thing, though I'm hoping they didn't just take that off Charmed. (And you'll have to tell me if Charmed took it off something else in the first place.)

Posted by: sarahabc | February 3, 2010 2:27 PM | Report abuse

I too was not a fan of last nights episode. Hopefully things will get better throughout the season.

Not to be anal but Liz and Jen say that Jack saved Charlie from ODing but he was not ODing. Charlie was choking on a bad of heroin. So this is different from the original flight, Charlie wasnt actually doing the heroin. Does this mean that the actions of the island(Charlie going clean) are now present on the new 815 flight? It seems to me that the choking is suppose to be reflective of Charlie drowning. I like the previous post about Charlie's and Desmond's presence being related. Werent Charlie, Desmond and Ms. Hawking all together in one episode?

As with most episodes of Lost there were more questions created and not too many answers. :(

Posted by: charlesnoe | February 3, 2010 2:38 PM | Report abuse

imagine if we all put this much thoughtful analysis into fixing what's wrong with the world we actually live in...LOL!

Posted by: alisamkeith | February 3, 2010 2:58 PM | Report abuse

Was the temple also where Charlie was when he and Desmond were diving and Charlie eventually died? The area around the water hole/spring or whatever it was looked a lot like the same place.

If so -- then might Charlie's dip in the water mean that he too might come back to us?

Posted by: kate36 | February 3, 2010 3:01 PM | Report abuse

Hi everyone. I think I missed this blog just as much as I missed the show. seriously. i'll be back with some thoughts when i have them.

Posted by: camis | February 3, 2010 3:18 PM | Report abuse

I'm pretty confident that Jacob has come back in the body of Sayid.

It seems likely to me that Jacob identified Locke as the smoke monster and allowed himself to be killed so he would poof away and defend the temple by occupying another human, in this case Sayid. He knew Sayid wasn't going to make it and basically had Hurley take the body to the temple where it could be finished off (drowned) and prepped for the transfer. Not really inconsistent with Jacob being a good guy, since Sayid was all but dead anyway, not to mention begging for an opportunity to redeem himself for a lifetime of evil acts. It would explain Miles' confusion with the dead Sayid. It would also explain the temple Others' expectation that it would be bad for them if they didn't take Sayid and the gang into the temple.

I suspect we're setting up for a battle between Sayid (Jacob) and Locke (Smoke monster/MIB).

Posted by: Menidia | February 3, 2010 3:23 PM | Report abuse

The Locke that is walking around is actually the Man in Black we’ve seen talking to Jacob disguised as Locke. He’s not inhabiting Locke’s body because Locke’s body was in the box on the beach, still dead and um…inanimate.

Sayid did in fact die. Also, he did in fact come back to life. Probably in a similar umm…process as Ben did when Kate took him to the temple as a boy. But Ben’s attitude was different when he came out of the temple. I suspect Sayid’s will be different too.

At first I thought maybe Sayid’s body had been inhabited by dead Jacob, like dead Locke is inhabited by the Man in Black. But Locke’s body isn’t inhabited by the Man in Black because Locke’s body is in a box on the beach.

So, confusion.

But, what if Sayid’s body is now inhabited by a Sayid from a different alternative reality? So, he might be a bit different because his experiences are different and he might know stuff about people, but he’s still Sayid. Same as when Ben came out of the temple as a little boy. He was different, but still Ben.

What do you think? Logical at least? Am I totally LOST?

Posted by: ideallydc | February 3, 2010 3:28 PM | Report abuse

If Jacob needed Sayid's body -- to repeat Ben's question -- why did Jacob let Ben "kill" him?

If Jacob wanted a body or a soul to inhabit, he already had one -- his own. And yet, he did virtually nothing to stop Ben -- Jacob didn't try to make a convincing argument, Jacob didn't simply slap Ben aside. Indeed, Jacob egged Ben on with "what about you?"

The whole "Jacob needed Sayid's body" theory doesn't hold up.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 3:28 PM | Report abuse

A prediction: The characters that landed safely in LA must do some time traveling pretty soon, at least within three years. Why? Because in three years they will catch up to the characters on the island, who are about three years ahead of the ones who landed in LA. How do they time travel? Any guesses?

Posted by: scott888 | February 3, 2010 3:28 PM | Report abuse

**what if Sayid’s body is now inhabited by a Sayid from a different alternative reality?**

There was a Star Trek episode where an alternate reality Chief O'Brien or Geordi or somebody traded places after that person in the original reality had died.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 3:32 PM | Report abuse

Alright I have a strange thought here. Someone mentioned that Christian may have never been on the first plane in season 1 right? Did it seem odd to anyone else how the oceanic people handled that in the alt reality? Almost feel like they never put him on the plane in either scenario? Maybe they were worried about MIB usurping his body? (which i guess he did anyway) I know this theory is shaky, but can't help but think these guys are involved (oceanic) with widmore and the whole MIB/Jacob battle. I feel the pieces are coming together but there is still so much unexplained.

Posted by: pacifist1984 | February 3, 2010 3:33 PM | Report abuse

scott888 -- Mrs. Hawking is going to show up and, like in the jewelry shop, tell them all that arriving home safely isn't what they do.

She will tell them they have to go to the Island. They won't listen (especially know-everything-but-get-everybody-killed Jack), but eventually, the universe will course correct and they will end up on the Island.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 3:36 PM | Report abuse

Here's a thought: in the alternate no-crash reality, Jack et al. will somehow begin to realize "it wasn't supposed to happen this way", i.e., the plane was SUPPOSED to crash, and do something (who knows what) to set things right... and actually manage to somehow re-create the did-crash reality. The problem is that once they do this, they've recreated the reality where the survivors go on to negate it, resulting in the no-crash reality all over again... and thus alternating between the did-crash, didn't-crash loop for all eternity.

No wonder MiB got so tired of it. Heck, maybe even Jacob is tired of it too, and will do anything, even allow MiB to kill him, to get out of it--thus the "loophole".

Posted by: MrDarwin | February 3, 2010 3:37 PM | Report abuse

kate36 asked "Was the temple also where Charlie was when he and Desmond were diving and Charlie eventually died? The area around the water hole/spring or whatever it was looked a lot like the same place."

Charlie and Desmond were offshore diving down to an underwater Dharma station called the Looking Glass, and that's where Charlie died (or did he?).

Posted by: NotDoc | February 3, 2010 3:46 PM | Report abuse

I'm still not convinced about MIB's role. Is MIB really the bad one? Is he really smokey? Or is smokey someone/something else?

If we accept that MIB is kept out/in by a circle of ash, and if Hugo broke the circle of ash around "Jacob's cabin," then who/what was the smoke monster that roamed around scaring the bejezzus out of everyone, killing people, and getting stuck at the electric fence? Or did Hugo break the circle in an earlier time? (arrgh. can't. keep. time(s). straight.)

I still keep thinking that MIB isn't the bad one of the pair (though I love Richard and his eye liner and would hate to see him on the wrong side). In the Jacob/MIB conversation, MIB seems to be questioning why all the human suffering is being not just allowed but encouraged (kinda like a coliseum show, no?). Jacob completely shrugs that off - he doesn't say that it's a pity that humans suffer so, or that he'd like to be able to assuage some of the suffering, he just tosses it off as progress. To me, Jacob seems pretty cold and cynical.

I wonder if there is more than one smokey - is the smoke a form that the Jacob/MIB beings can take on - the same way that they can take on human form? Or is the smoke monster - who we already know can take on other forms - completely separate from Jacob and MIB?

Does any of this relate to why Locke has a dead body and a walking manifestation and why Sayid may or may not still be Sayid, but is definitely an animated body?

Posted by: leaf29 | February 3, 2010 3:50 PM | Report abuse

**MIB seems to be questioning why all the human suffering . . . **

leaf -- Satan likes to blame God for suffering also. It's like Al Pacino in The Devil's Advocate, where he actually believes that he's the good guy.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

I wasn't disappointed with last night's episode, it held my interest, but the new, possible reality of the LAX timeline raises more issues than it clears up.

And since there's so much about Egypt and the Bible wound up in this show, it's worth pointing out that, in relation to a comment upthread about the temple's spring water being red, instead of clear, perhaps that's a reference to one of the 10 plaques to hit Egypt, where the river water turned to blood.

Aaron, in addition to being the name of Clare's son, was also the name of Moses' brother.

But MIB/Smokey left me confused. If Ben wasn't aware of that connection until after Smokey's rampage last night, then how did he know enough to unleash, and control, Smokey on Widmore's goon squad after they killed Ben's daughter?

And, what happens if Locke's body is submerged in the temple spring, will we see both the real Locke AND MIBLocke at the same time?

The only lesson I've learned from Lost is it's insistence that nothing is set in stone, even if it's already happened, which suggests that we'll be seeing Faraday again this season, and I'm guessing he'll know about his death in an alternative reality.

Posted by: kingcranky | February 3, 2010 4:01 PM | Report abuse

I thought NotLocke made some kind of comment about how it's hard to stay in that form for a long time. I always assumed that NotLocke was just a physical manifestation of Smokey, and that the reason why getting Locke's body back to the island was important was to have the others have their "uh oh, something's really wrong here" moment. If we're assuming that it's Jacob in Sayid's body (which isn't a given at this point), then he may be inhabiting a corpse, but that may also be because he's actually now 'dead' himself and can't manifest himself. Smokey/Esau/NotLocke may have other powers stemming from whatever it was that he inherently is. Jacob may have lost some powers when Ben "killed" him. (That death seems cheesy to me somehow -- he didn't fight it, so it may be that it doesn't matter that much. He doesn't seem to be all that upset about being dead.)

Posted by: lilyg25 | February 3, 2010 4:04 PM | Report abuse

Is it possible that when Juliet said "It worked" she was not referring to the bomb, but to the cancer treatment of her sister?

Posted by: pamax25 | February 3, 2010 4:08 PM | Report abuse

Another thought on alternative realities. It appears the Juliet was either time traveling or reality traveling right before she died. If we assume she's alternate reality traveling then we can explore that the Juliet we know may still be in that alternate reality having coffee with Sawyer. Could the same be true for other people who've traveled and then died?

When Desmond traveled he was able to change things. Maybe that's how Ben is able to get on and off the island too - by inhabiting himself in an alternate reality.

If you have a constant you can control the travel, if not you get stuck in the alternate time line.

Posted by: ideallydc | February 3, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Obviously somebody has power over death here.

Locke died, not merely when Ben strangled him, but when dear old dad threw him out the window, but Jacob brought him back to life that time.

Similarly, let's not overlook the obvious from day one -- surviving that plane crash was IMPOSSIBLE. Everyone should have died. In fact, if I remember right, a couple of people asked, "why aren't we dead?" Why didn't they die? Again, I nominate Jacob and his power over death.

That Ben should "kill" him is of little concern to Jacob. And he really would not "need" to have Sayid's body if he does, in fact, have that kind of power.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 4:27 PM | Report abuse

I think you've got something with the power over death theory ooyah32. Jacob's touch changed them in some way.

Posted by: ideallydc | February 3, 2010 4:33 PM | Report abuse

I don't think it's a coincidence that this episode aired on Groundhog Day. I recently rewatched the Bill Murray movie of that name and couldn't shake the feeling that Jacob described that movie perfectly when he said, "It only ends once. Everything that happens before that is just progress." It's only because Murray's character remembers his experiences from the previous Groundhog Days that he's able to learn from his mistakes and become a better person.
Several people have noted that Jack (and maybe some of the others) seemed aware of things being different on the plane in the alternate flight 815. I agree. I think they're experiencing something like Murray did in the movie--remembering the alternate timeline events so they can make better choices this time.

Posted by: NYKelly | February 3, 2010 5:04 PM | Report abuse

When Jacob dies their "pool of water" in the temple is no longer clear (hello connection) indicating that the healing powers of the water are gone too. AKA annoying Japanese man cutting himself - emerging his hand in water - saying "it doesn't work" because his hand did not heal. And yet they submerged Sayid in the water regardless... meaning they didn't heal Sayid. They killed him. Yet unnecessary-Japanese-translator-hippie man said Jacob's note read: If [Sayid] dies - tehy're all gna be in for some trrrrouble! CONFUSION ! Did the "hippie others" mess up? I think this story line is crucial to the season- when Sayid 'woke up' at the end of the episode he said "what happened?" I don't think eternally-calm-Jacob (who was even calm during his own murder) would deliver such an opening line. Sorry I'm not really answering questions as I am raising them.

Posted by: abdc | February 3, 2010 5:06 PM | Report abuse

Then again, Jacob told Hugo to take Sayid to the Temple. He did not say: go do this and go do that and take your sweet old time, waiting until Sayid is literally drawing his last breaths before you bother to get him there. Had Hugo gotten him there sooner, it might have been easier.

As for those at the Temple, were they treating the water as if it were "magic," rather than realizing that any restorative power it had came from Jacob? Were they lacking in faith in "he who will save us all"?

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 3, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Took me a while to realize that the timelines weren't parallel but sequential. What I struggle with is how can the new events in 2004 (safe landing in LAX) reconcile with the aftermath of the explosion. Also, took me a sec to realize that apparently, the Losties who blew up the island were transported from the 1970s to 2007. At least it seems that way. Having said that though, I guessing that the show will somehow reconcile the two timelines. In other words, the "safe" 2004 Losties will somehow find themselves in the exact position we find the 2007 Losties in this episode. The LAX folks are already beginning to form relationships and connections to each other. I'll predict now that they're all going to be on Ajira Flight 316 in 2007. The only thing that makes this problematic, that I can see, is the sunken island in 2004. Pretty tough to raise an island, I'd imagine. Though, they've moved it before.

I do believe that all of these Losties are pawns in a cosmic chess game between Jacob and MIB. The characteristics of the two certainly compare to many historical myths. Personally, I believe Jacob represents a more outward and selfless motivation; and MIB's motivation is inward and selfish. Jacob repeatedly reminds folks about making a choice; MIB focuses folks on the choice he wants them to make.

Posted by: NeedAMap | February 3, 2010 6:09 PM | Report abuse

Sayid coming back as Jacob...

Remember: Dead is dead.

Richard: "I've seen a lot of things on the Island, but I've never seen someone come back from the dead"

And he still hadn't, since The Man In Black (aka, the smoke monster) was masquerading as Locke.

So, we know that people can't come back from the dead. So either he wasn't dead yet (just very very close) or he has been taken over by someone/something else.

Perhaps Jacob.

Earlier we saw in a preview Sayid appearing to be tortured, or branded, or both. Are they testing him?

I thought I had it figured out until I read some of the very insightful comments in this blog. I thought multiple timelines, but I now agree that it's unlikely, I think the plane (LA X) is the 'future', after they have defeated the Man In Black. Of course, I also like the theory that its the failed future, and things go to hell after because the man in black wins.

One thing that always got me is Jacobs and TMIB's talk (they come, they corrupt, they destroy... it always ends the same) Jacobs response tells me that they are stuck in a loop, it has happened time and time again, and he has been nudging it towards the finish he wants.

Thats why he nudges Ben with the line "What about you?" into killing him. Almost suicide. He doesn't fight back. Ben even mentions that. Because Jacob clearly required his own death in order to 'save' the world.

I liked the episodes, but I am not surprised some didn't, there was a LOT of built up eagerness for the show. I wouldn't say hype, unless it was hype of our own making.

Posted by: miked789 | February 3, 2010 6:41 PM | Report abuse

Random ponderings:

The loophole: Ben was saved from death at the temple as a child and possibly imbued with some aspect of Jacob or the island, thus empowering him to kill Jacob on behalf of MIB. But only if he chose to.

Jacob and the cabin: Was the ash circle keeping MIB in or keeping him out? If it was MIB in the cabin all along, then perhaps that is why he never showed himself to Ben all those years – perhaps some rule disallows that particular deception. But if MIB was trapped in the Cabin until Hurley came along, then was Jacob the smoke monster who killed the French guy, the flight 815 pilot, Eko, etc?

Or maybe it was Jacob in the cabin after all, and he only fled to the statue after the ash was broken? For that matter, why did Locke/MIB look surprised last season when Richard revealed that that Jacob was under the statue? That’s where he was weaving the strands of our lives or whatever the first time we met them both, a few hundred years ago.

God vs. Satan analogy: No, I’m not suggesting Jacob and MIB are God and Satan, but some of the parallels fit in the way that mythic story lines are often recycled. For example, Jacob “ignored” Ben all those years, while MIB actively seduced him. Also the story of Jesus allowing himself to be killed, or at least making no effort whatsoever to dissuade anyone from doing so. And, of course, Satan had been thrown out of heaven and wanted to return “home.”

But I also agree with the earlier poster, maybe we have Jacob and MIB confused – maybe it is Jacob who appears benign but is ultimately a cold, alien force playing these humans to amuse himself.

As someone else mentioned, Desmond could easily be on the plane because there would have been no island (above water) for his sailboat to crash into three years earlier.

Posted by: MeriJ | February 3, 2010 6:43 PM | Report abuse

Someone asked how Desmond blew up the hatch. Locke (I think it was Locke but somone else was there too...)chose not to key in the numbers because he had lost faith -- he came to believe that the hatch was merely a Dharma psych experiment/hoax.

He thereby triggered a magnetic crisis like the one that brought down Flight 815. Desmond had a failsafe key which he used to save the day, but with explosive/ sky-flashing/time-travelling consequences. At least that's how I remember it.

Posted by: MeriJ | February 3, 2010 7:03 PM | Report abuse

MIB is Set.

Jacob is Osiris - and is now in Sahid's body.

MIB lied about being Smoky. Just as he lied about being Locke when he killed Osiris/Jacob in Hastur's temple (which is who the crocodile god is).

That said, I like the idea that the reason Jack had a small cut was he got it shaving off his evil twin beard ... (grin)

Posted by: WillSeattle | February 3, 2010 7:34 PM | Report abuse

oh, can't remember the name of Smoky, but he's the one that judges the souls, weighing them against a feather. More of a servant than a god, really. Which is why he killed off certain people (they had gone too far to the dark side) and left others alone.

Sadly for Osiris, while he does good, he has also done evil, which is part of why he's on the Island.

The whole moving island that is invisible to mortal eyes is part of Egyptian mythology as well.

Posted by: WillSeattle | February 3, 2010 7:37 PM | Report abuse

That hippie translator in the temple: I loved him in Deadwood. So far this translator character is pretty flat.

I also like the new Locke/MIB. I know I'm supposed to root for Jacob, but MIB/Locke is much more charismatic. That rogue...

Posted by: MeriJ | February 3, 2010 9:16 PM | Report abuse

"If Jacob wanted a body or a soul to inhabit, he already had one -- his own. And yet, he did virtually nothing to stop Ben -- Jacob didn't try to make a convincing argument, Jacob didn't simply slap Ben aside. Indeed, Jacob egged Ben on with "what about you?""

Because I think Jacob is interested in progress, and that this, finally, is something new.

Posted by: auntiemare | February 3, 2010 10:35 PM | Report abuse

A couple of things...

*Esau and Jacob were brothers in the Old Testament
*Richard Alpert was an actual man, who researched LSD at Harvard in the 60s
*Jack did meet Desmond before the island. They were working out by running stairs in a stadium at night.
*The alternative/split reality seems likely, since now Hurley is lucky, etc.

Is any of this important? Who knows?! :)

Posted by: Moosehead2 | February 3, 2010 10:52 PM | Report abuse

Ok, MIB was in the cabin but someone broke the ash-circle and let him out. MIB had Ben convinced he was Jacob, and has been telling Ben what to do all these years. All part of MIB's plan. Ben is a pawn, duped into believing MIB, in the cabin, was Jacob. This allowed Ben to hate Jacob who Ben had never actually met.

Now a theory ... Ben was brought back to life in the temple when he was a kid. I'm guessing Jacob did that, meaning that while MIB was telling Ben what to do, Jacob knew what MIB was telling him because a little of Jacob was in Ben. Jacob has been matching MIB move for move and has prepared for the moment when Ben would kill him (the loophole), which is why he did not resist being stabbed as Ben noted.

Ok, is anyone still not convinced Jacob and MIB are ancient gods? As for Richard, he's an "advisor". Hmmm, I'll need to check up on those who advised the gods. Richard might be a lesser god, or a demigod (half-god half-man).

As for the two timelines, the airplane landing in LAX is the future, when all really is fixed and the island is under water, destroyed by the bomb. Just as LOST has taken us to show glimpses of the past, and later the future, this episode showed us the ending of the series in the opening episode. Kinda cool.

Someone way backed asked about Widmore, and that he had been battling Ben. Well, if Ben was duped by MIB, Widmore may actually be a good guy. Actually Ben may be good too, just duped.

Oh I'm so glad Lost is back!

Posted by: Fate1 | February 3, 2010 11:41 PM | Report abuse

Here's a thought ... Widmore sent the freighter to land on the island and the soldiers kill Ben, who it now seems was doing what MIB told him, thinking it was Jacob giving him instructions. Everything the Others did was under Ben's instruction. They used Michael to blow up the freighter, smokey killed the soldiers. This means Widmore is a good guy. I think it also means that Ben, though he is doing MIB's bidding unknowingly, is also unknowingly keeping Jacob informed, maybe since Jacob saved Ben's life as a child. Not solid about this, but Jacob seems pretty confident, even confident enough to allow Ben to kill him, which I think is because he knows the events to follow will lead to MIB's death, the sinking of the island, and the end of the last of the ancient gods.

Posted by: Fate1 | February 4, 2010 12:14 AM | Report abuse

All part of Jacob's plan.

You guys joke in the dueling analysis about why Hurley was sent back... for comic relief? No... because he can speak to the dead. Then in your chat you talk about how calm Jacob was when talking to Hurley. Because... it is all part of Jacob's plan. Jacob knew he was going to die, so he needed Hurley on the island so he had a way to communicate with them.

On that note, what does it say that in whatever dispute Jacob & MIB has, Jacob was willing to give his own life for his cause. That is eerily similar to the journey our Losties have taken. They have all had to learn the errors of their ways, overcome them, and have faith in whatever to the point of a willingness to give their life (charlie, sayid ready to die, the losties ready to a-bomb themselves). This also ties into Ben. Ben is now a part of the Losties figuratively speaking. He saw real (dead) Locke and is now on a journey to learn the errors of his ways, will have to overcome them to defeat MIB, and possibly give his life for it.

Posted by: RG19 | February 4, 2010 1:53 AM | Report abuse

I'm not so sure that Locke's impersonator was being literal we he said to Richard "I'm happy to see you without the chains" (or something like that); it seems to me that he could also have meant "I'm happy to see you free from having to serve Jacob".

It also seemed to me that Richard realized that Jacob was dead when he saw the fireworks launched by the temple people. Then his face revealed him being really scared, and that he finally comprehended the identity of Locke's impersonator.

Richard was the one who guided the group to the statue's foot, and therefore stands to reason that he must have been in some kind of contact with Jacob. This suggests that he was not duped over the years by the dark character, as it seems to have been the case all along with Ben, perhaps Widmore and/or Elle, as well as the new Japanese guy in 2007. To me this is a contradiction, unless it is the rule that when the others have a leader Richard stops any type of communication with Jacob. I think that Richard told Locke in 1954 that he was not the leader; that the actual leader was at a one day distant camp. Or maybe I'm misremembering, and Richard was at the time the leader or the regent of the others, at least until Widmore and Elle grew up, and during that time he had to be in contact with Jacob or he was also duped by the usurper.

Either Jacob completely neglected dealing with the others and let the not-Jacob man usurp his place and trick his followers, or else Jacob is really not such a good character. The other's reflex reaction after finding strangers has always been to kill them. Why? How can a leader be benign, as Jacobs is represented to us, when his followers seem incapable of second thoughts unless the keyword "Jacob" is mentioned?

Posted by: for33 | February 4, 2010 9:11 AM | Report abuse

Was I the only one who saw them carrying Sayid out of the water, arms extended, and thought of Jesus on the cross? And now he has apparently resurrected?

Posted by: PostReader4 | February 4, 2010 9:52 AM | Report abuse

One thing I noticed about the 815b group - things generally didn't go well for them when they landed. One could even argue they might have been better off crashing on the island. Jack with a funeral but no corpse, Jin in deep doo-doo with immigration, Sun alone, Kate on the run again, Claire (and Aaron) as hostages and you know that can't end well, Charlie arrested for heroin...there's definitely an argument they were better off not getting to LAX.

Posted by: Gonzai | February 4, 2010 9:57 AM | Report abuse

My favorite statements in the episodes were:

After Jin explains why the corpse is missing an arm in the underground tunnel Hurley says: "This is gonna be awesome".

Jack to Locke at the airport: "Nothing is irreversible".

If taken out of context, it is so not true.

Posted by: for33 | February 4, 2010 10:57 AM | Report abuse

QUESTION: I thought in the episode "Man behind the curtain" where Ben takes Locke to Jacob's cabin and Locke hears "Jacob" (right now there is a debate whether Locke heard Jacob or MIB speak) say "HELP ME" - doesn't Ben admit in that episode that he's never heard or seen Jacob? Hence why he was so angry in the scene where he murders Jacob and says "so now you stop ignoring me." Thus how could MIB/Jacob be using Ben as a pawn if he's never heard Jacob that means he never heard MIB posing as Jacob (as some suspect). Or am I getting this all wrong?

Posted by: abdc | February 4, 2010 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Obviously, the writers rely on Egyptian mythology.
For example,
"In the original tale of the fight between Set [MIB] and Horus [Jacob], the Egyptians believed that the two would continue their battle until the end of time itself, when chaos overran ma'at [order/constant, pattern] and the waters of Nun would swallow up the world. It was only when Set was vilified that this changed, and the Egyptians began to believe that Horus won the battle, defeating Set as a version of good triumphing over evil." []

In LAX time line, the waters have swallowed the island, and we are led to believe there is a new future (with the LAX crowd). However, this new future should be more chaotic if true to the egyptian myth.

Set was a red-haired god (associated with evil, chaos, night), and Horus (the elder, sometimes associated with Osirus) was his brother and associated with good, order daytime. Osirus was resurrected after being killed by Set (actually his followers), and allowed others to live again in the afterlife. (seems similar to Jacob)

Tawerat (the statue on the island)is a goddess of child birth (women on the island can't have children) and rebirth, and she was a partner to both Set and Osirus (as Isis).

Esau (brother of Jacob) means red and had red-hair like Set teh egyptian god. Set could/did take on many animal forms at will (like MIB). One of which was a giraffe--remember Hurley's comment about the smoke?
Tawerat was also a goddess of protection (for the island?) and she kept Set chained up for a time so he couldn't spread evil/chaos. it appears MIB can not leave the island, but how did he know what Locke's last thought was--unless he's lying?

Cerebus is a three headed dog from Greek mythology that protects the entrance to hades (death, underworld) and seems to also be used in reference to the smoke which at times becomes three puffs of smoke and is thought to be protecting the island.

Jacob is obviously not chained to the island as he has traveled all over seeming to give people the ability not to die or ressurect from dying. (like Horus/Osirus)

I still don't know which one took the form of Christain Shepard, I can make a case for either MIB or Jacob. Probably MIB as I don't know that Jacob has ever taken on the form of anyone else.

What will keep me watching it this season is to see how they resolve the main two storylines to create chaos out of order, or order out of chaos.

Posted by: KevinAF | February 4, 2010 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Ack! Nose is bleeding again! And gah! do I have a headach now.

Posted by: hodie2 | February 4, 2010 2:04 PM | Report abuse

I went to Lostpedia to read up on Jacob's Cabin.

I forgot that it moved around and only dated back to the 1970s, when Horace Goodspeed built it for his family prior to the purge. At one point, Locke found the ash circle but could no longer find the cabin within. And Hurley saw both Christian and Claire there at the same time. All very odd.

I'm less and less sure I have any clue what's going on with Jacob and MIB. Who's "good" and who's "evil," etc. We all assume white is good and black is evil.

Posted by: MeriJ | February 4, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

Aside from the Google Earth-reminiscent underwater graphics and Juliet's anticlimactic death, I was pretty happy with this episode. There are sixteen episodes left. They aren't going to answer every major question in the first two episodes. I'm going to give it a few episodes before I get annoyed.

KevinAF's description of Jacob's (who may be Horus or Osiris) ability to resurrect people made me think about when Ben shoots Locke into the mass grave in a previous season. If I remember correctly, as Locke is laying in the pit, bleeding out, a vision of Walt comes to him (don't remember what he says) and then Locke's wound is healed. Every other time, the visions/hallucinations were dead people, and the visions never healed people (if I'm remembering right). And, as we now know, Locke was resurrected by Jacob after his father pushed him out of the window. I now think that was Jacob who appeared as Walt to Locke.

I also see similarities to the The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe - specifically, the resurrection of Aslan, the lion. He allows the white witch to kill him with the knowledge that he will return/be resurrected because of a deeper magic he is able to use. I feel like that is similar to what is going on here. Jacob helps the MIB's "loophole" (MIB using Ben to kill him) to occur by setting off Ben and he didn't fight his fate. I think Jacob has his own grand plan and needed to die(his own "loophole"). The MIB may even be aware of this loophole because right before Jacob dies, he says "The others are coming", which I think is referring to the 1977 Losties. MIB looked freaked out after Jacob told him that.

Whatever Jacob's plan is, clearly the temple Others aren't entirely priivy to it. They were thrown by the bloody(?) water in the spring (which I think was a response to Jacob's death). They were also thrown by the knowledge of Jacob's death, and they were EXTREMELY thrown by Sayiid's seeming "resurrection". This is why I believe that Jacob went into Sayiid's body, as opposed to the spring simply healing him, like it usually did. I think Jacob knew Sayiid was beyond saving but he needed a dead body to enter. So, he told Hurley that the spring would heal Sayiid to ensure that Losties would bring Sayiid's body to the temple, allowing Jacob to enter it. That's why the Others were confused by Jacob saying they could heal Sayiid when he was clearly beyond saving. Maybe this is a "deep magic" that Jacob never informed them of.
The question is, why are the Oceanic 6 + Sawyer, Jin, and Miles specifically necessary to Jacob's plans?

Posted by: linswilliams | February 4, 2010 4:13 PM | Report abuse

It's good to have Lost back. I was slightly let down by the premier but, in my case, I think it was primarily due to the high stage of anticipation of the event (8 months is a long time). I at first agreed with several posts that Juliet's death was too dragged out but I now think it was for a reason. The reason was for her to tell Miles that "it worked." I agree with several above that we are likely to see a scene on the final show where Sawyer is having coffee with Juliet. They have likely even shot that scene since she was only in Hawaii for a short time in between filming "V".

Talking about other cameo's, does anyone expect to see Boone in any subsequent shows? His brief scenes on the plane seemed to be final. I'm not sure what the purpose was for bringing him back for such a miniscule role. Charlie's was only slightly more detailed. I guess that the answer will be to set up the alternate reality timeline by demonstrating subtle differences with the initial Lost timeline. Those differences are: Boone not bringing Shannon back from Australia; Charlie going thru, and not succeeding, with his attempt to OD/choke to death (why he attempted to choke himself rather than taking a fatal hit, I'm not sure of); Bernard returning from the bathroom!; Rose being calm during the turbulence; Jack, not. Other differences?

My biggest quesion from the opener, is how many different groups of Others are there. Are they all the same people? I mean, there are the others, including Juliet, who lived comfy lives in the Dharma village. There are the others who apparently are living in the temple/stockade. There are the others who are trucking around with Richard. Then there is Richard himself. If they are all the same people, why are the Temple others dressed in what I would describe as Black Rock swabbie gear? Whereas the villager others (Village People) were always wearing fairly modern day cloathing when they weren't wearing jumpsuits with their occupations stenciled on it. The Temple seems to have been a place of refuge thruout Lost, or at least this is how it seems to have been referred to. Perhaps, the Temple group were the original Black Rock crew and they were charged with maintaining and protecting it. But, why the Village Others?

Posted by: Emcdoj | February 4, 2010 6:16 PM | Report abuse

I thought that the piece of paper in the Ankh/Guitar Case was a list with the Losties names on it. The Japanese leader guy seemed to be mentally checking them off the list as they said their names. This is perhaps Jacob's List from earlier? Wasn't this given to Ben/Others at some point?

Posted by: allison777 | February 4, 2010 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Emcdoj said:

> Whereas the villager others (Village People) were always wearing fairly modern day cloathing when they weren't wearing jumpsuits with their occupations stenciled on it.

The jumpsuited ones weren't Others. That was the Dharma Initiative, pre-purge.

Posted by: MeriJ | February 4, 2010 7:03 PM | Report abuse

Emcdoj said:
> My biggest quesion from the opener, is how many different groups of Others are there.

We've seen the flight 815 children and the stewardness in each of the Other locales at one time or another, including the high tech station on the 2nd island, and, now, the temple. What that means, exactly, I don't know...

To linswilliams: Aslan's sacrifice in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is basically the Jesus story. But I agree totally with what you said. Obi Wan Kenobi's death in Star Wars felt that way as well -- an unexpected path to a deeper game.

Posted by: MeriJ | February 4, 2010 7:19 PM | Report abuse

Am I the only one who got the hourglass's reference to the Wizard of Oz? The Wicked Witch set the hourglass and said Dorothy would be dead when the sand had emptied. Dorothy managed to escape the chamber she was locked in just in time. Sayed did not. No one came to his rescue. He died to become Jacob. Dorothy survived to kill the Wicked Witch.

Posted by: CafeBeouf | February 4, 2010 9:10 PM | Report abuse

I'm not buying that Sayid is dead. If Jacob was resurrected in Sayid he would not wake up startled asking what happened. Jacob is way too cool a character to act that way. But something is amiss. The water did not heal LoPan's hand for instance so it would not have healed Sayid's wounds. Will have to wait for more information, as usual.

I called the asian guy "LoPan" because when I first saw him he was a dead ringer for the ever-living character LoPan in the movie "Big Trouble In Little China". One of my all time favorite movies. He was dead/undead, seeking to come back to the land of the living by marrying a not so willing green eyed girl (hard to find in China, but he did). If other characters/stories can be referenced in this show, why not this one? The question is, who is the girl with green eyes in Lost? :-)

Posted by: Fate1 | February 4, 2010 11:32 PM | Report abuse

Gonzai wrote: "One thing I noticed about the 815b group - things generally didn't go well for them when they landed. One could even argue they might have been better off crashing on the island."

I agree, which tells me that Jacob's plan was not about making their lives better. Of course, Locke was given some hope for a recovery he never realized was possible. Looks like Sawyer and Kate might hook up. But overall I agree, blowing up the island in the past and never crashing did not make their lives better. How could it, they are right where they were in 2004, well, almost...

I was struck by the differences on the plane. Where was Shannon? Not with Boone! What was Des doing on the plane? I assume he finished his yacht race, never landed on the island because it was sunk, and so might be available to be on the plane, but that would mean the island has to have sunk long before 2004. The bomb in the 1970s might explain it. As Julia said, "it worked".

But there are differences, meaning time was altered far enough in the past to allow these changes seen in 2004. So, assuming the island sinks in the 1970s, where is Shannon? Was she ever born? Did her parents die when the island was destroyed? Why is Des not with Penny, etc? It also means the crazy guy with the numbers would not be around to tell Hurley about them, so how did Hurley win the lottery? Maybe, some of our Lostees never crashed, others did. Maybe some end up having lived in one timeline and others another, all coming together later, with for example Jack knowing nothing happened, Hurley knowing everything, others maybe some of it.

OK, nose is bleeding, gotta go...

Posted by: Fate1 | February 4, 2010 11:58 PM | Report abuse

The only green-eyed girl I'm aware of Fate, is Kate.

Posted by: ooyah32 | February 5, 2010 12:01 AM | Report abuse

Fate1 said: where is Shannon? Was she ever born? Did her parents die when the island was destroyed?

Boone explains on the plane that he left his sister in her abusive relationship in Austrailia--so he must not have paid the $50,000 to the guy to leave her, a different choice. I wasn't aware that Shannon and Boone's parents were on the island.

Fate1: Why is Des not with Penny, etc?
Desmond may not have even taken the round the world sailboat trip because it was for Penny. Because the island blew up, he may not have met Penny or Charles Widmore (her father and also key to that relationship) as one or both may have been on the island when it exploded.

Fate1: It also means the crazy guy with the numbers would not be around to tell Hurley about them, so how did Hurley win the lottery?
I can't help you on this one, unless Hurley really is lucky and won a lottery based on a gamble.

What will be interesting is to see how these lives are different--will those that died on the island also die anyway about the same time? Will anyone's life turn out any better? I'm sure we'll see this season.

Posted by: KevinAF | February 5, 2010 8:53 AM | Report abuse

To Fate1:

Re Shannon: I think someone already mentioned that Maggie Grace was not available for these first episodes so the writers adjusted Shannon's back story on 815b to fit. Btw, I like that "815b" bit that Gonzai used - is that a term they use on the Lost fansites?

Crazy guy and the numbers: Hurley got the numbers from a fellow crazy guy who heard them being transmitted from the island while in the navy (a decade or so earlier) along with another guy whom Hurley tried to visit in Oz. Which is why he was on flight 815 in the first place. However, neither of these guys were ever on the island. But you're right -- 2004 minus 10 to 20 years would be after the bomb went off, so there shouldn't have been a radio transmission to hear.

It's all so complicated! I can't wait to read the book they write after the dust has settled: how the writers kept track of all these details over the years; how much they truly planned ahead vs. how often fans caught continuity errors which the writers then resolved via major or minor plot twists...

Posted by: MeriJ | February 5, 2010 11:45 AM | Report abuse

I was thinking that the new situation in the 2007-island was also extremely costly for Miles, as he lost his father. Through the events leading to the incident last season Miles judgement about his father, Mr. Chang, changed to the point that he saved his life in the incident . This fact was missed by Hurley and Jin, who knew about Dr. Chang, in the LA X episodes.

Posted by: for33 | February 5, 2010 3:06 PM | Report abuse


Good catch re the jumpsuited folks being Dharma people, not Others. However, Julia, Ben and the other Others living in the Village after the massacre of the Dharmites were wearing modern cloathes and the Temple others aren't. Why the wardrobe differences? Certainly, there must have been some access to off-island cloathes. Probably Ben taking off on a Nieman Marcus shopping spree periodically while doing Jacob/MIB bidding. Or brought back by sub.

Also, good catch re the flight attendant and kids being on the small island. Clearly they do move around. Weren't there more than two kids taken from 815a? Not counting Walt of course.

This raises another question. Why did the Losties never run into the Temple in all the years they were on the island (other than the time young Ben was taken to Richard to be healed)? Were there other times when they were at or near the temple? I don't recall. Certainly, they were never in the fort portion of the temple. How could such a large structure have remained hidden all this time?

Posted by: dojemc | February 5, 2010 4:54 PM | Report abuse

MeriJ wrote: "Crazy guy and the numbers: Hurley got the numbers from a fellow crazy guy who heard them being transmitted from the island while in the navy (a decade or so earlier) along with another guy whom Hurley tried to visit in Oz. Which is why he was on flight 815 in the first place."

Right, and the numbers came from the serial number on the hatch installed when they built the Swan. So, if the bomb blows up the island before they complete the Swan, how did the numbers get transmitted. Actually, I don't think we've seen anyone transmitting the numbers yet, right? Maybe that's coming, done so in order for Hurley to win the lottery (circular).

MeriJ wrote: "However, neither of these guys were ever on the island. But you're right -- 2004 minus 10 to 20 years would be after the bomb went off, so there shouldn't have been a radio transmission to hear."

Well, we're now into multiple timelines, and I'm starting to think all are real, and the people in them will converge in the end. So the crazy guy who told Hurley the numbers is in an original timeline. Hurley was in that same timeline but is now in another. Remember, whatever happened happened. The numbers were transmitted, but only those who were in that timeline heard them.

MeriJ wrote: "It's all so complicated! I can't wait to read the book they write after the dust has settled: how the writers kept track of all these details over the years; how much they truly planned ahead vs. how often fans caught continuity errors which the writers then resolved via major or minor plot twists...

Books written after-the-fact about TV or movies are usually not as good as other books. I think we'll be reviewing past episode for decades, not to mention a course or two in college about LOST, maybe even a graduate degree. With such a degree you could make millions touring the world explaining it all.

Posted by: Fate1 | February 6, 2010 12:13 AM | Report abuse

dojemc said: However, Julia, Ben and the other Others living in the Village after the massacre of the Dharmites were wearing modern clothes and the Temple others aren't. Why the wardrobe differences?

True. And such cheesy clothes! Maybe the Asian dude savors the taste of Western apparel about as much as he enjoys English...

Posted by: MeriJ | February 6, 2010 2:04 AM | Report abuse

Lennon? Jonh Hawkes's character is named Lennon?

Posted by: reader14 | February 6, 2010 1:30 PM | Report abuse

Ben stabs a completely accepting Jacob. Therefore Jacob intended his own murder. It is a ruse.
He then says "they are coming" (did I get that right?) at which MiB kicks him into the fire in anger.
Jacob is quickly and COMPLETELY consumed by the fire, which in all subsequent shots shows not the slightest remnant of the body.
Wonderful season opening - lots of drama, romance, humour, mystery, boys-own-adventure. The spirit is strong. Never seen Kate so beautiful both in LA and on the island. Gonna miss Juliet like mad.

Posted by: grantft | February 8, 2010 9:08 PM | Report abuse

Argh, stop calling him Esau. There's no parallel beyond the phrase "Jacob and Esau".

MIB is a far better name. Stick with it.

Posted by: charlesbakerharris | February 9, 2010 6:05 PM | Report abuse

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