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The untruth about International Baccalaureate

Earlier this week, I tried to slip something past Lisa McLoughlin, the real estate broker/journalist/activist from Long Island who is leading a small but vibrant movement to stop the growth of the International Baccalaureate program in the United States. It is not a good idea to try to put anything over on McLoughlin. She caught me and forced me to write this column.

McLoughlin is the creator and chief promoter of the Truth About IB Web site, truthaboutib.com. On my Admissions 101 discussion group here at washingtonpost.com, I started a discussion recently of her site being mentioned in the New York Times, but that newspaper failed to mention her. I thought this would irritate her, which is good for me because McLoughlin slapping me around is interesting theater. Her often-acidic comments keep Admissions 101 page view numbers high, particularly when the subject is IB (which McLoughlin loathes) versus IB's much larger and more influential counterpart, Advanced Placement (which McLoughlin likes.)

This time, ColoradoCowgirl, one of the IB critics McLoughlin has brought to Admissions 101, challenged me to prove what, if anything, is incorrect on truthaboutib.com. Feeling lazy that day, I made a lame suggestion that the truthaboutib folks should read my book about IB, "Supertest," and tell me where I went wrong instead. McLoughlin called that "a really poor attempt at a dodge."

So I agreed to critique her Web site. I haven't read everything on it, but enough to report, somewhat to my surprise, that it is pretty good. Its raging paranoia about IB being a threat to American values and U.S. sovereignty is completely divorced from reality, but compared with other overheated ideological Web sites, it is remarkably fair, even balanced in a few places.

The "Overview" section of truthaboutib.com is clear and mostly straightforward. It declares right away that the site has an agenda, exposing flaws in the IB program.

IB is a group of introductory college level courses and tests. It was created in Geneva by some private school teachers, including Americans, to offer a consistent introductory college program for the children of diplomats and businessmen around the world. It has since become popular in U.S. schools, where it is found on more than 500 campuses, mostly public high schools.

It is well known in the Washington area, where I live and work. About two dozen schools have IB here. IB also has a Middle Years Program for middle schools and a Primary Years Program for elementary schools. They are growing but are not nearly as important or successful as the IB in high schools, so I haven't paid much attention to them and will ignore them in this critique.

I think AP and IB are both good. They provide the most challenging courses in U.S. high schools today. I think IB is slightly better because its exams are usually all free response questions, with few of the multiple choice questions that make up half of AP, and because a student who goes for the IB diploma in addition to her regular high school diploma must write a 4,000 word researched essay. (Students who don't want to get the IB diploma, which also requires taking six IB exams, can take fewer IB courses and tests and look just as good to colleges as students taking the same number of AP courses and tests.)

McLoughlin thinks IB is bad because it charges schools much more than AP does for its services, because it is more difficult to get college credit for good scores on IB exams, and because she thinks it promotes what she calls "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda."

The truthaboutib.com overview says its goals are to inform parents, educators and taxpayers about IB, advocate a return to "the 'traditional' American system of high schools with Standard, Honors and AP levels," "invest in American (AP) courses and examinations which have a longer record of acceptance, quality and greater national and global recognition" and "advocate for the retention of local educational control and U.S. sovereignty."

There is nothing wrong with giving out more information, which truthaboutib.com does well. Many of its items are, in fact, stories by me, about which I have no complaints, except that truthaboutib.com in a couple of instances distorts my meaning. A link to one column of mine was "AP or IB? Neither," when the real headline on the column was "AP vs. IB vs. Neither: A Plea for Peace and Love." I was trying to bring all sides together, but the truthaboutib.com made it sound like I am rejecting both programs. When I showed McLoughlin a draft of this column, she promptly restored my original headline.

I clicked on another link, "IB Math Fraud," and saw this headline: "Read Jay Mathews' coverage of Fraudulent IB Math Evaluation." That sounded like the IB organization was up to no good, but in fact the column was about a math professor who was angry not with IB, but with the Fordham Institute for too much editing of a report he did for the institute on AP and IB math courses and tests. McLoughlin, seeing this part of my column, said she disagreed with my interpretation and left the link as is.

I think IB has greater global recognition than AP, but that's not important. It is, however, wrong to say that advocating for AP is calling for "retention of local educational control and U.S. sovereignty." There is nothing the least bit local, as the term is usually used, about AP. Critics regularly mourn how AP courses discourage local high school teachers from creating their own advanced offerings. Many educators say AP squelches local initiative. Truthaboutib.com ignores that point. The Web site also appears to overlook the fact that AP is in the process of changing its courses to be more like IB, with more choices in test questions so teachers can explore some topics more deeply.

Truthaboutib.com is right to point out that college academic departments do not usually treat AP and IB equally, a form of inexplicable discrimination that I have been railing against for years. Essentially, the professors who make the rules about giving college credit for AP and IB know something about AP, but next to nothing about IB. Out of ignorance, apparently, they give more credit for AP than IB courses. That Fordham Institute report covered in the "IB Math Fraud" item shows that AP and IB single-year courses and tests in math, history, English and biology are similar in content and rigor. But the college professors don't seem to know that. When I ask them to explain why they discriminate against IB, they rarely give an answer. Their university spokespersons say they don't know, and in most cases are unable to find out.

To the credit of truthaboutib.com, my piece outlining the credit problem is all there. Less attractive is the Web site's habit of saying the difference in credit means IB is not as good a program, without mentioning that IB students report it has little effect on their college success. If they can't get formal credit, they take the college's placement test or have a chat with the professor, and still get the advanced course they are looking for.

Truthaboutib.com is full of accounts of community fights over IB. These are rare, but exciting in a way. Usually the IB supporters are portrayed as dark agents of intolerance and ignorance, and the anti-IB people are the heroes. Some critics think that IB is a threat to American life because some of its leaders have been associated with United Nations agencies. Some Americans also are bothered by an organization committed to teaching students about the wider world. In some instances, critics have charged IB with promoting unconventional, cult-like philosophies.

McLoughlin, however, rejects the charge that IB and AP promote different teaching styles. Some people say IB is more progressive and more focused on concepts and AP is more traditional and focused on content. Truthaboutib disagrees: "The individual AP class, like IB, is so much a product of the teacher that any IB or AP class can differ in terms of instructional methodology from one day to the next," which is exactly right.

Truthaboutib.com's best argument is about money. It exaggerates the cost of IB in some instances, but a careful reader will get a fairly accurate picture. In my book I calculated that an average public high school -- my example was Mount Vernon High in Fairfax County, Va. -- spent about $56,000 a year on IB, including subscription and test fees. McLoughlin estimates that the cost is about $200,000 per school on average. Whatever the case, it is much more than an AP program would cost.

IB is expensive, in part, because it insists that all IB teachers be trained (AP does not), and because all those essay questions on IB tests are more expensive to grade (half of AP exams are machine scored.) I argue that $56,000 was about the amount that school paid for its baseball and softball programs. As much as I adore those sports, which my children played, I think IB is more important.

But McLoughlin, and truthaboutib.com, are right to point out the cost as a vital issue. If a school can't afford IB, it should go with AP. The two programs are almost exactly as good. Truthaboutib.com would an even better information source than if it emphasized that point.

This post has been updated since it was first published.

Read Jay's blog every day, and follow all of The Post's Education coverage on Twitter, Facebook and our Education web page.

By Jay Mathews  | July 15, 2010; 6:00 PM ET
Categories:  Trends  | Tags:  IB critics Web site truthaboutib.com, International Baccalaureate vs. Advanced Placement, Lisa McLoughlin  
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Comments

Let's face it, anything that is so heavily influenced by the UN, which you have to admit is proven by simply visiting the themes for teachers section of the www.ibo.org can't be any good.

The UN agenda is at complete odds with America's way of life and form of government. I refused to teach world government and was branded.

I taught for 35 years and have never seen such dumbing down and politicizing of our school systems as I did since we have had Goals 2000 and OBE and a lot of other schemes work their way in, usually through some insidious federal program w/funding.

Sorry but I could never let my kid go near that dumbed down globalist constructivist anti-American nonsense of a program dreamt up by UNESCO, the most evil organization on the planet..

Posted by: username | July 15, 2010 7:40 PM | Report abuse

Jay why do you continue to ignore the constructivism approach IB uses in the classroom? Why do you ignore the studies that show this approach does not work: www.cogtech.usc.edu/publications/kirschner_Sweller_Clark.pdf

Why is it, IB doesn't share this information with students and parents when they sign up for IB? I thought IB was about critical thinking. How do you analyze a program when you are denied critical information?

My children have been subjected the constructivist approach in their prior school. It was a disaster. Of course the highly motivated students will do well, they will teach themselves the material and perform well no matter where you put them.

But could they have done better in a school that actually had teachers instead of facilitators? Where are the studies that students do better in IB than AP?

Are there some good aspects of IB? I'm sure there are. I'm familiar with a private school that expects seniors to also prepare a thesis and defend it in order to graduate. They didn't have to adopt IB to require this of their students, they simply required it as part of their graduation requirements.

IF schools are so pathetic that they cannot offer rigor without IB, that tells me something about the poor public education we have in our country.

I keep hearing how this program is rigorous....busy work and students teaching themselves via constructivism isn't rigor!

You have absolutely no credibility on this subject because you can't even bring yourself to admit the obvious problems with the program. Until you can look at this program with a critical eye, you have no credibility with me.

Posted by: MOMwithAbrain | July 15, 2010 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Wow, paranoia runs rampant with some folks. UN agenda? My younger son is in a PYP IB school, and I can attest to the fact that he is not teaching himself. He has had wonderful teachers. He is encouraged to explore ideas way beyond the county curriculum because of the PYP units. I don't love standardized testing, but this school is top ten in Florida, year after year. Because the school is IB, families from many cultures are also drawn to the school. This is a wonderful community and a great place for my son to be educated. (And don't forget Cambridge AICE - although the anti-IB people probably hate that program, too!)

Posted by: jennypalmer1 | July 15, 2010 9:57 PM | Report abuse

I just love how Jay and IB supporters cannot refute the fact that IBO is an NGO of UNESCO and promotes the UN agenda but must resort to calling those of us who oppose IB in American public schools, "paranoid". Just because IBelievers refuse to recognize what the IBO is dishing out, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Their only defense is to call those of us who can see the truth, paranoid.

And that is another point Jay failed to touch on. IBO should be free to sell its "programmes" to private schools to its heart's content. HOWEVER, U.S. taxdollars should not be going to this divisive, controversial program in our public schools.

http://truthaboutib.com/theibhiddencurriculum/ibandunesco.html

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 15, 2010 10:12 PM | Report abuse

Dear Jay,
Honestly, America was the greatest academic entity in the world. When we began to believe we should adopt world practices, we initiated American academic decline from prominence. America has only one course of action, eliminate IB or any other educational process that brings America aligned with the world. American education must be the leader, as it once was, not the follower of academic processes. Get back to basics and retain the highest command of academics using past methods that had us the envy of the world. Let the world follow us.

I am running for Governor of Nevada and I will completely terminate IB in Nevada if elected. Moreover, I will completely terminate the federal funding of Nevada education and we will not follow federal education directives. Nevada will rewrite the curriculum and end all social engineering, including sex education (incidentally, I highly recommend that you investigate the sex education content of IB, it is reprehensible).

Lisa has her facts right on target. I challenged many of them and she is quite correct.

There is not a debate as to whether IB is good because it is not. It is destructive to the American superiority of scholastic aptitude. I will not tolerate it or allow it. What I cannot seem to understand is why you and many others are willing to entertain alternatives that have historically taken America to a lower standard. I am not interested in global alignment or mediocrity for Nevada education. Nevada education will be the standard that the world must strive for.

Posted by: ginodisimone | July 15, 2010 10:13 PM | Report abuse

You may think that having Lisa slap you around makes for good theater Jay, but it's really a cheap way to keep your page view numbers high while unfortunately trivializing and obscuring important educational issues. It's pretty clear that both you and Lisa, though supposedly on opposite sides of the IB ideological fence, have an agenda that showcases a program that has no legs on its own (less than 3% of the hs even have IB after over 40 years).
Instead of sensationalizing a program that has little penetration in American public high schools, you should be using your platform to advance the national debate about education in a meaningful way.

Posted by: patrickmattimore1 | July 15, 2010 11:58 PM | Report abuse

Patrick,

The difference in our agendas however, is Jay gets paid by a major newspaper and magazine and receives benefits from IBO to promote IB, whereas I am an unpaid taxpayer who is trying to combat Jay's abuse of the press.

While IB's growth was delightfully minimal in the U.S. until Bush put us back in UNESCO, with the advent of the UN loving Obama and the $5+ billion in the 2009 Recovery Act that can be glommed by Title I schools to purchase IB (IBO's new "global center" is in Bethesda, MD.) those legs of which you speak, now have the money to make them bionic. We must work to cut off Federal funding for IB.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 16, 2010 8:17 AM | Report abuse

Jay still doesn't "get it" on the college credit issue. AP is designed with college representatives to obtain college credit. IB is a college preparatory program. The IBO has little, if any, representation of U.S. colleges on their board of trustees. It doesn't matter whether AP is changing their courses to be more like IB, it is that AP is working with colleges to ensure their courses contain content that is comparable to an introductory college course.

But the IBO really isn't in it to get college credit. Remember that college credit is different from college exemption. College credit saves money -- many AP kids end up with a year of credit by the time they enter college. Exemption just means you don't have to take a required course, but you still have to satisfy the credit hours some other way.

The "math fraud" issue isn't so much about the content to me. Ever look at the syllabus of the course in question (Math SL)? The real "fraud" is how anyone could think that any college would allow credit for that class! Fun class to take, I'm sure. But only 36 of 150 hrs are about calculus. 30 hrs were for probability and statistics. So, what kind of college class has that mix?

The other real fraud is that there is a Math Studies IB course that is often taken. That this course would qualify as any kind of "advanced course" (for example, with the "Challenge Index") is a joke.

In Fairfax County, the problem with this isn't so much the IBO, it is the school administrators who force IB on students, while telling them that college credit doesn't matter. Well, when their AP friends from other schools are able to graduate in 3 years, or take lighter loads, double majoring, etc., the IB kids start seeing (a little late) that it DOES matter. In Fairfax County, the administrators also talk all about how great the IB Diploma Programme is. Great! The problem is that only about 10% of the kids ever get the Diploma. If you are involved in sports or other time consuming extracurriculars, you're likely not going to be in that group.

Posted by: MG14 | July 16, 2010 8:36 AM | Report abuse

I'm not really interested in getting involved in the fundamental debate, but, Jay, you missed a trick here.

You say that AP teachers are not required to be trained. That is a half-truth. It's true, technically, but beginning (I believe) in the 2007-2008 school year, the College Board requires that all AP teachers submit their syllabus to them for approval. If the syllabus is not approved, the course cannot be described as, for example, "AP Calculus." Additionally, AP has several official AP institutes where teachers spend 4-5 days being trained to teach the courses.

Having been through this training for the AP Government and Politics: United States course, I would loudly advocate for it--and for whatever IB training is done. But it bears mentioning, and it is another area where (rightly, in my view) AP seems determined to become more like IB.

Posted by: Spergler | July 16, 2010 8:58 AM | Report abuse

"Critics regularly mourn how AP courses discourage local high school teachers from creating their own advanced offerings. Many educators say AP squelches local initiative."

I'm one of the aforementioned critics -- the recognition that has accrued to AP (and IB, for that matter) make it easy for colleges and thus parents to think they know what those courses "mean" on a transcript, at least in terms of rigor. Market pressures strongly discourage the development of any innovative new course because students move toward what's known. I don't blame AP (or IB), though; all of us (college admissions, parents, guidance counselors, students, teacher) need to know more and discriminate better. This takes a lot of time and energy, however.

Posted by: carlrosin | July 16, 2010 10:24 AM | Report abuse

I thought that one of the key goals of modern education was to develop critical thinking skills, including such things as media awareness, understanding propaganda, and deconstructing rhetorical strategies. I believe in this, which is why I find the fearmongering about the UN agenda so untenable.

If you don't like IB for cost reasons, I'm with you. If you don't like it because of the packaging or the college-credit-inefficiency or any of the other rational reasons, vaya con Dios. But seriously, if your only way to defend against what you perceive as an internationalist, pro-UN bent is to censor the course, your lack of faith in critical thinking is exacerbating the problem.

On the plus side, I thank you for providing the link to TAIB, which I will pass along to my students so they can make their own judgments (we are not an IB school, so the effort is purely academic for us). When they consider the documentation and arguments, I wonder if they end up seeing it as persuasive or biased.

The marketplace of ideas is enriched by this debate, but (because I am not at root a relativist) when I come to my own evaluation, I side with Jay: TAIB's "raging paranoia about IB being a threat to American values and U.S. sovereignty is completely divorced from reality."

Posted by: carlrosin | July 16, 2010 10:46 AM | Report abuse

The best part about AP is that it favors those who are good test-takers, as opposed to those who put in a lot of effort. For example, I got 4s on the BC Calc and US Government exams after having not sat through either course (I did take AB Calc, however).

I accumulated 1.5 years of college credit before ever having set foot on campus. This allowed me to avoid ever taking a full course load, register early for the best classes, and still graduate in 4 years.

AP is a slacker's dream!

Posted by: afsljafweljkjlfe | July 16, 2010 10:51 AM | Report abuse

Carlrosin,

And don't you see any irony in an educational program which is full of UN propaganda claiming to be able to teach how to identify propaganda and use critical thinking to "know" the truth?

Remember the words of Goebbels, chief propaganda officer:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Jay and IBO keep repeating lies about the IB product. IB supporters deny UN affiliation. Jay's insistence that IB only costs $56,000 a year is a bold faced lie. You agree with me on the cost factor. If IBO's main media mouthpiece repeatedly misrepresents the cost of the product, how can you side with him that our criticism of a program chock full of propaganda is "raging paranoia completely divorced from reality"? TAIB is bringing you the facts. Jay is attempting to grossly underestimate not only the one truly objectionable cost feature that everyone can agree on, but dismiss the program's bias out of hand without anything to back up his dismissal.

Why would you believe the one who is telling the "untruth" over me?

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 16, 2010 11:58 AM | Report abuse

Before Jay published this article, we had an e-mail exchange. I hammered home the point to him that throughout Truth About IB, I have documented that the average cost of running IB in a single school is $200,000 per year. This is what he wrote back to me:

okay, so i add the 200,000. but i did get back to you on math fraud. i suggested you change it to IB Math Dispute. tell me what you are gonna do about that and I will make that change accordingly. ---jay

As you can see, that was not included in the article.


Posted by: lisamc31 | July 16, 2010 12:04 PM | Report abuse

oops, sorry Lisa . i was rushing to get home yesterday and forgot that . i will stick iin the $200,000 when i figure out how to get there from this hotel computer.

for MG14---I hope you will read the Fordham report before you make up yr mind that AP and IB are on a different level. you can find it as a link in my ap vs ib vs neither column linked above.

For Momwithabrain---Take a look at the quote from truthaboutib on the question of constructivist vs traditional teaching in IB. If Lisa the nations most energetic IB critic says it is not an issue, I dont see how you can argue it is. How many IB classes have you attended? most of the ones I have watched were pretty traditional. the only thing you might consider constructivist is that kids had to write a lot.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 16, 2010 1:02 PM | Report abuse

Jay,

Regarding IBO's use of constructivism to teach its "themes" - the quote that you culled from TAIB dealt with the DP. HOWEVER, you chose to ignore the PYP and MYP in this article which state point blank in their IBO overviews, that they use the constructivist method.

It is convenient for you to dismiss these other two money makers for IBO, since your educational focus is college admissions. Yet if you check the IB "growth" chart on my home page, you will see that IBO is exerting much more effort in expanding its PYP, than the DP. It is IBO's effort to "penetrate" U.S. public schools in order to indoctrinate our littlest students using the constructivist method to deconstruct what little ones have been taught at home and having them "re-learn" the IB way, which Mom with a Brain is pointing out. And as it applies to the PYP and MYP, I agree with her wholeheartedly.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 16, 2010 1:17 PM | Report abuse

for lisamc31---I cannot speak knowledgeably about PYP or MYP without spending more time in those classes, and I dont think you can either. But I can say that i have seen a lot of constructivist teaching in non-IB classes, in elementary and middle schools, and as you said so well in truthaboutib.com, it is the teachers style that rules, not the program. I would wager we will find no more difference in style there than inthe high school program. It would be nice to have some real data based on real classroom observations.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 16, 2010 1:24 PM | Report abuse

McLoughlin thinks IB is bad because it charges schools much more than AP does for its services
..............................
Not really fond of either IB and AP when many middle class and affluent public schools that do a good job in public education are forced to lay off teachers, and these programs are simply another added cost to the limited school budget.

What really is needed is funding for enrichment programs from the Federal government targeted to the students of public schools that are headed for colleges.

But this would require that the Federal government admit that the Title 1 poverty public schools are not the majority of public schools in the country.

...............................
It is interesting in regard to IB that opponents to this program are opposed because the program is not politically correct.

...and because she thinks it promotes what she calls "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda."

Political correctness appears to becoming a large issue in public education.

Public education becomes very difficult in the majority of public schools of this country where thought is being so largely shaped and restricted based upon political correctness.

One is troubled by the political correctness that is being imposed upon the publishers of textbooks by Texas but what is perhaps more disconcerting is that much of this political correctness is already in the public schools.

Texas may want to change "capitalism" to "free market" in the textbooks but this is already the case for most teachers in public schools.

Many public schools assign "The Communist Manifesto" in advanced classes with the political correctness of demonstrating a failed economic system, while there are no public schools that assign "The Wealth of Nations" in order to view our capitalistic system.

It is almost an absurdity to expect to promote creativity and lucid thinking when political correctness is shaping so much of public educational policy and teachers in the nation.

It would be better to bring back the strict banning of books in public schools based upon rigid sexual prudery, instead of the political correctness of our public schools that is banning lucid thought and reasoning.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 16, 2010 2:18 PM | Report abuse

for Jay -

"I cannot speak knowledgeably about PYP or MYP without spending more time in those classes, and I dont think you can either."

Really? Gosh Jay, you sound just like Nancy Pelosi - "We have to pass the bill in order to know what's in it."

your version -

"A school has to buy IB in order to know if it's any good."

... because there IS NO quantifiable data showing that IB's PYP and MYP programs actually improve student achievement. Which is why I say to American educators and parents: Caveat emptor. Don't be fooled by the "try it, you'll like it!" IBO sales pitch.

Spend the money on more teachers and smaller classes. Spend the money on an elementary science teacher and lab. Invest in tangible, time-tested resources for the students, not on fattening the pocketbooks of Eurocrats in Geneva.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 16, 2010 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Before Jay published this article, we had an e-mail exchange. I hammered home the point to him that throughout Truth About IB, I have documented that the average cost of running IB in a single school is $200,000 per year.

Posted by: lisamc3
.....................
200,000 is not a great amount if we are talking about 20 classes per year.

Present full costs and a break down in comparison to AP.

Mr. Mathews has stated already that IB is more expensive than AP.

Given your accusation that IB is not politically correct as convinced me of an advantage of of IB over AP which I am somewhat familiar with.

In reality I wish there was a program for exorcism of political correctness in the public schools. Teachers would be held down and forced to call a spade a spade and not a shovel. They would all be forced to admit that free markets and free trade in the past meant China being forced to allow free traders to turn the Chinese into drug addicts. The teachers would be forced to call our economic system capitalism. To prove that the exorcism can be ended teachers would be required to make up lesson plans for teaching the Shakespeare play Julius Caesar with emphasis on showing all of the various ploys of politicians.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 16, 2010 3:16 PM | Report abuse

bsallamack,

Not politically correct for whom? IB is totally politically correct for the Progressives, not for constitutional Conservatives.

Here are all of the IB fees:

http://truthaboutib.com/howmuchdoesibcost/ibfees.html

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 16, 2010 3:44 PM | Report abuse

It appears the Commonwealth of Virgina approves of the IB program or it would not have passed Bill 209 on April 11, 2010.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+SB209

Posted by: staciaz | July 16, 2010 3:49 PM | Report abuse

for patrickmattimore1---I am startled by yr reaction. Have you had any close contact with IB schools or kids who did the extended essay? I hope you will skim my book before you write IB off. It seems to me any program, no matter what its size, that engages kids and raises their level of achievement and appreciation of learning is a plus. And IB is distinctive in the way it approaches writing, doing much better on that one important skill than AP. Take a look at the comment from GlobalNomad after my thursday column on student writing.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 16, 2010 3:55 PM | Report abuse

@lisa mc: Perhaps you have not seen a PYP school that improves student achievement. The PYP school that my children have attended for the last 7 years is top 10 in the state of Florida every year. We switched to this school because my children were not challenged in the neighborhood school. That changed as soon as we changed schools. My 9th grader will be in Algebra II. My 4th grader reads at a high school level. He has had PYP units that teach about the solar system, the scientific method, recycling. How scary. These units have sparked myriad interests in my son that he has been encouraged to explore at school. He has been in Spanish language classes since Kindergarten. Is he more aware that there is a world out there beyond Florida because he is in an IB school? Yes, and I am thrilled that he is! Each grade focuses on a different continent each year. Is that part of your terrible UN Agenda? How about the year-long study of American History in 5th grade that includes setting up the classroom as a government? These students learn about America and the world. And they are the better for it.

Posted by: jennypalmer1 | July 16, 2010 5:46 PM | Report abuse

jennypalmer1,

Set up the classroom as a government eh? Oh THAT sounds interesting. I'd love to see that lesson plan. How many water conservation lessons did they have? Have your children scolded you for running the water when you brush your teeth? Do you have any idea how fearful and paranoid the radical environmentalism taught by this organization has made young children?

Look, you drank the Kool Aid. I'm very happy for you. Enjoy your public IB schools while they still exist. I hope to see IB offered only in U.S. private schools by 2015. That's my goal. 2015 - wipe out IB in U.S. public schools.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 16, 2010 6:00 PM | Report abuse

bsallamack,

Not politically correct for whom? IB is totally politically correct for the Progressives, not for constitutional Conservatives.

Posted by: lisamc31
.................................
The fact that you ask such a question indicates the problem.

It is interesting that you believe in political correctness which in reality is simply the old requirement of the communist party where members had to accept fully the party line.

Anyone who attacks others on political correctness are no different from the Russian communists or Nazi fascists who were willing to destroy anyone that questioned the party line.

Political correctness is for the opportunist sycophants with totally closed and deformed minds and it does not belong in the public schools.

................................
I stated that you should have presented "full costs and a break down in comparison to AP.

I am totally uninterested in a website recommended by an individual that believes in political correctness and does not understand that political correctness does not belong in public education.

I wish I could give you a website that does provide a program for exorcism of political correctness since you apparently need it.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 16, 2010 6:36 PM | Report abuse

If IB was truly about educational standards and not about indoctrination, it would allow any student to sit for its exams the way the College Board allows anyone to sit for the AP exams. But it doesn't- only those enrolled in an IB-approved course may sit for the exam.

Posted by: CrimsonWife | July 16, 2010 6:38 PM | Report abuse

jennypalmer1,

Look, you drank the Kool Aid. I'm very happy for you. Enjoy your public IB schools while they still exist. I hope to see IB offered only in U.S. private schools by 2015. That's my goal. 2015 - wipe out IB in U.S. public schools.

Posted by: lisamc31
.................................
The goal of lisamc31 who is a firm believer of political correctness is to wipe out free thought in public education.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 16, 2010 6:41 PM | Report abuse

If IB was truly about educational standards and not about indoctrination, it would allow any student to sit for its exams the way the College Board allows anyone to sit for the AP exams. But it doesn't- only those enrolled in an IB-approved course may sit for the exam.

Posted by: CrimsonWife
.................................
Wow apparently the political correctness wolves are out in full cry.

According to this logic if a student is not enrolled in a class at Princeton University or even at Princeton University, that student should be allowed to take the exams. Since Princeton University does not allow this, it follows that Princeton University is not about educational standards but is about indoctrination.

The rants of these politically correct attackers only add credibility to IB.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 16, 2010 6:48 PM | Report abuse

Crimsonwife,
I think MG14 hit the nail on the head re. a fundamental difference between AP and IB- the fact that AP is intended to replicate the intro college courses and IB is intended to provide an enriched hs curriculum. That doesn't mean that AP is better or more advanced than IB but it does suggest why AP would let anyone sit the exams and IB would not. Jay's push for IB college credit notwithstanding, I'm not sure that this really has much at all to do with what IB is about.
Also, somewhere here recently someone extolled the virtues of AP re. college credit and early college graduation. A 2010 book "AP A Critical Examination of the Advanced Placement Program," suggests that the "data provide no evidence that AP courses cause students to graduate more quickly than students who have not taken AP courses. Passing AP exams increases the likelihood of graduating in three years for a small number of students, those attending high schools that offer a wide array of AP courses and who have the support necessary to pass multiple AP exams." Klopfenstein, p. 190-191.
Jay,
I have not had any close contact with IB schools or kids who have done the essay. From what I've read here, it sounds like a really good program. I can understand why you support it but it also sounds like a really unnecessary redesign of American public high schools. I also fear that if as you suggest the program is AP equivalent that we are dictating a college-level program in high schools for which the students have been inadequately prepared.

Posted by: patrickmattimore1 | July 16, 2010 7:52 PM | Report abuse

A couple comments I actually think the difference between IB and AP may be more readily described as the difference between a large state university survey course say on American History versus the seminar courses offered at liberal arts schools on Role of Myth in English Literature for example. I don't think anyone would advocate eliminating either type of program, but would instead see them as essential bookends within higher education.

However Jay- I think you do a great disservice by not being more curious about the PYP an MYP programs for elementary and middle school. They are growing in the area and at least DCPS seems to have decided to create a track of themm that will feed eventually into Jefferson and then into Eastern High School. I personally have my doubts if they will truely invest in the training and money it will take, but at least for the moment there are some very intense attempts going on. If you are serious about understanding what happens at the class room level you should be thinking about what it means to pull these programs into more urban settings. As far as I can tell there is not a school in the metro area with the PYP or MYP that has any level of poverty or ESL population like they are now trying.

Posted by: Brooklander | July 16, 2010 8:21 PM | Report abuse


One of the benefits of AP is that it enables students to get a college-level class or two, which is all that the majority of kids who take AP in hs take. It's a much easier fit for hs than IB and enables students to do a sampler rather than be force fed an entire curriculum.
I also disagree with Jay about college credit for IB versus AP. When IB begins to set up the types of measures that AP has established to insure 1:1 equivalencies between the hs course and a college intro course it purports to mimic, then it deserves college credit. The onus should be on the group seeking the credit not the group granting it.
In any event, AP and IB are not largely about college credit or exemption but college admissions to selective and highly selective institutions.

Posted by: patrickmattimore1 | July 16, 2010 8:21 PM | Report abuse

Brooklander---good point. i am very curious but have had trouble finding the time. this blogging fills up the day. Maybe my giving up my 90 minute daily commute this fall will free up some. I did look at an MYP program in Va a couple of years ago and did a column about it. It looked good, a sort of long distance version of the independent assessments that I wrote about a couple of weeks ago related to those 28 New York state high schools. But there isn't much data, and I dont think it is significantly different from well taught non-IB schools I have seen, like the KIPP schools. PYP i also want to know more about, and will try to do so.

Crimson Wife---I havent thought about the possibility of non IB students taking IB tests until recently, but I am having breakfast with the IB director general, Jeff Beard, tomorrow. I will ask him about that and report back with a separate blog post. After all, George Mason High in Falls Church let me take the IB 20th Century history test in 1998 without my taking the course. That was just a journalist's stunt, but I learned something from it, and I don't think it did IB any harm.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 16, 2010 10:38 PM | Report abuse

Brooklander---good point. i am very curious but have had trouble finding the time. this blogging fills up the day. Maybe my giving up my 90 minute daily commute this fall will free up some. I did look at an MYP program in Va a couple of years ago and did a column about it. It looked good, a sort of long distance version of the independent assessments that I wrote about a couple of weeks ago related to those 28 New York state high schools. But there isn't much data, and I dont think it is significantly different from well taught non-IB schools I have seen, like the KIPP schools. PYP i also want to know more about, and will try to do so.

Crimson Wife---I havent thought about the possibility of non IB students taking IB tests until recently, but I am having breakfast with the IB director general, Jeff Beard, tomorrow. I will ask him about that and report back with a separate blog post. After all, George Mason High in Falls Church let me take the IB 20th Century history test in 1998 without my taking the course. That was just a journalist's stunt, but I learned something from it, and I don't think it did IB any harm.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 16, 2010 10:39 PM | Report abuse

"Political correctness is for the opportunist sycophants with totally closed and deformed minds and it does not belong in the public schools." ~bsallamack

Exactly so, which is why IB does not belong in American public schools. Maybe you can pass that tidbit on to Al Gore. ;-)

You seem a bit confused, ballsack. I'm about as "politically incorrect" as they come. .

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 17, 2010 6:33 AM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife---IB director general Jeff Beard, the first American to hold that job, says they would make some serious cash if they let students who had not taken IB courses take the exams, but that would violate a basic principal of the program---they are a curriculumn of which the exams are just a part. To them the curriculum is the most important part. He said the two are so bound together that the times that someone has taken an IB exam without the course are too few to mention. I am one of the few that have ever done it. The number of students who have taken an IB course without the exam is also quite small, less than one percent he estimated. It was interesting to me that that less than one percent number is also what Trevor Packer, head of AP, tells me is the portion of AP tests taken by students who did not taken the relevant AP course. (And most of those, by my reckoning, are IB students protecting themselves against the discrimination against some IB courses by many colleges. I will do a blog post soon with more.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 17, 2010 10:16 AM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife---IB director general Jeff Beard, the first American to hold that job, says they would make some serious cash if they let students who had not taken IB courses take the exams, but that would violate a basic principal of the program---they are a curriculumn of which the exams are just a part. To them the curriculum is the most important part. He said the two are so bound together that the times that someone has taken an IB exam without the course are too few to mention. I am one of the few that have ever done it. The number of students who have taken an IB course without the exam is also quite small, less than one percent he estimated. It was interesting to me that that less than one percent number is also what Trevor Packer, head of AP, tells me is the portion of AP tests taken by students who did not taken the relevant AP course. (And most of those, by my reckoning, are IB students protecting themselves against the discrimination against some IB courses by many colleges. I will do a blog post soon with more.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 17, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife---IB director general Jeff Beard, the first American to hold that job, says they would make some serious cash if they let students who had not taken IB courses take the exams, but that would violate a basic principal of the program---they are a curriculumn of which the exams are just a part. To them the curriculum is the most important part. He said the two are so bound together that the times that someone has taken an IB exam without the course are too few to mention. I am one of the few that have ever done it. The number of students who have taken an IB course without the exam is also quite small, less than one percent he estimated. It was interesting to me that that less than one percent number is also what Trevor Packer, head of AP, tells me is the portion of AP tests taken by students who did not taken the relevant AP course. (And most of those, by my reckoning, are IB students protecting themselves against the discrimination against some IB courses by many colleges. I will do a blog post soon with more.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 17, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife---IB director general Jeff Beard, the first American to hold that job, says they would make some serious cash if they let students who had not taken IB courses take the exams, but that would violate a basic principal of the program---they are a curriculumn of which the exams are just a part. To them the curriculum is the most important part. He said the two are so bound together that the times that someone has taken an IB exam without the course are too few to mention. I am one of the few that have ever done it. The number of students who have taken an IB course without the exam is also quite small, less than one percent he estimated. It was interesting to me that that less than one percent number is also what Trevor Packer, head of AP, tells me is the portion of AP tests taken by students who did not taken the relevant AP course. (And most of those, by my reckoning, are IB students protecting themselves against the discrimination against some IB courses by many colleges. I will do a blog post soon with more.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 17, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife---IB director general Jeff Beard, the first American to hold that job, says they would make some serious cash if they let students who had not taken IB courses take the exams, but that would violate a basic principal of the program---they are a curriculumn of which the exams are just a part. To them the curriculum is the most important part. He said the two are so bound together that the times that someone has taken an IB exam without the course are too few to mention. I am one of the few that have ever done it. The number of students who have taken an IB course without the exam is also quite small, less than one percent he estimated. It was interesting to me that that less than one percent number is also what Trevor Packer, head of AP, tells me is the portion of AP tests taken by students who did not taken the relevant AP course. (And most of those, by my reckoning, are IB students protecting themselves against the discrimination against some IB courses by many colleges. I will do a blog post soon with more.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 17, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife---IB director general Jeff Beard, the first American to hold that job, says they would make some serious cash if they let students who had not taken IB courses take the exams, but that would violate a basic principal of the program---they are a curriculumn of which the exams are just a part. To them the curriculum is the most important part. He said the two are so bound together that the times that someone has taken an IB exam without the course are too few to mention. I am one of the few that have ever done it. The number of students who have taken an IB course without the exam is also quite small, less than one percent he estimated. It was interesting to me that that less than one percent number is also what Trevor Packer, head of AP, tells me is the portion of AP tests taken by students who did not taken the relevant AP course. (And most of those, by my reckoning, are IB students protecting themselves against the discrimination against some IB courses by many colleges. I will do a blog post soon with more.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 17, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife---IB director general Jeff Beard, the first American to hold that job, says they would make some serious cash if they let students who had not taken IB courses take the exams, but that would violate a basic principal of the program---they are a curriculumn of which the exams are just a part. To them the curriculum is the most important part. He said the two are so bound together that the times that someone has taken an IB exam without the course are too few to mention. I am one of the few that have ever done it. The number of students who have taken an IB course without the exam is also quite small, less than one percent he estimated. It was interesting to me that that less than one percent number is also what Trevor Packer, head of AP, tells me is the portion of AP tests taken by students who did not taken the relevant AP course. (And most of those, by my reckoning, are IB students protecting themselves against the discrimination against some IB courses by many colleges. I will do a blog post soon with more.

Posted by: jaymathews | July 17, 2010 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Lisa, conserving water is radical environmentalism? Actually, it's about living in Florida with a depleted aquifer. My son does insist I use "green" lightbulbs. Is he under the influence of a radical energy group? I would be happy to enlighten you about the lesson plan teaching 5th graders about government. It is a wonderful plan, because in the America I live in, we have a, GOVERNMENT! It's been around since we became, let me think, an independent nation. Do the students in your "ideal" school not learn about this country's history and how it is run? Odd curriculum, that.

Posted by: jennypalmer1 | July 17, 2010 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Jay,

Thanks for demonstrating IBO's blatant hypocrisy. First, you say Beard claims if IBO let kids who weren't enrolled in an IB schools take IB exams, it would "make some serious cash". But then you quote Packer as saying the number of kids who take AP exams without the course are "less than 1%". Therefore, Beard is giving you a load of bull because it obviously wouldn't make some serious cash. IBO makes FAR more money selling its "programme" and on its teacher training fees. It is a snobby, elitist, non-transparent organization that refuses to put its DP course guides online for free the way AP does.

And I really, really wish you would STOP with the "discrimination" crap. PatrickMattimore stated it very clearly and correctly and I agree with him 100%. Please read it again Jay:

"When IB begins to set up the types of measures that AP has established to insure 1:1 equivalencies between the hs course and a college intro course it purports to mimic, then it deserves college credit. The onus should be on the group seeking the credit not the group granting it." ~patrickmattimore

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 17, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

jennypalmer1,

So you'll admit to being lectured to by your kid about what kind of light bulbs to use but not the tooth brushing restrictions. Ok. Please read about the UN's Agenda 21 and get back to me.

Did your child's IB classroom use the U.S. Constitution to establish it's little in-house government? Or did they make up their own?

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 17, 2010 12:56 PM | Report abuse

Wow. The multi-culturalist liberal invites a discussion and holds a hearing on the arguments of someone who finds liberal educational practice anathema; and we are all re-schooled in what extreme jihadism is in someone's post- 9/11 world.

"We aim to stamp out IB"

----lisamc31

I am as critical of the financial interests of the College Board as the IB critic is of those interests for IB. But, my, this "Battle Hymn of the Republic" approach and dedication!! Where, Lisa, do you found these vinyards loaded with grapes of wrath that must be rooted out with your terrible, swift (by 2015) sword?

----------
I wonder whether a different goal is attainable, to have a majority of HS graduates able to understand and appreciate the large number of non-self-books published every year in public policy and especially history -- American and otherwise. I wouldn't insist that the books be of interest by the majority; only that a majority understand that their education has been a failure if they believe the three poles of evaluation of ideas and data --agreement with their HS course textbook, agreement with their HS teacher, or agreement with their parents (or whoever possesses for them the truth) -- hardly map the dimensions of what is worth knowing or thinking about,or methods of thinking . IOW, you don't need to be interested or fascinated in these ideas, facts, and interpretations; but they are not on a Forbidden.

I'd say to lisamc31: Not every ecology is a battlefield of invasion and infection.

Posted by: incredulous | July 17, 2010 3:17 PM | Report abuse

Oh, Lisa, you are so amusing! Personally, I love "being lectured" by my children. I don't always agree with them, so I make them prove their points, ideas, to me, which makes for interesting discussions and makes them research their ideas. Yes, my son is "green". In part because of school. In part because his grandfather (a staunch Republican) worked in the recycled paper industry for 30 years. In part because he and his grandmother like to walk along the river picking up trash. No one has only one influence in their life. (His grandparents never went to an IB school. They just consider conserving the environment a no-brainer.)

And yes, the 5th grade curriculum is based on the US Constitution. From what I can gather from the parents of children at non-IB elementary schools, the students at the IB school go into US history in much greater depth.

I have shared some of your comments with my younger child and he wants me to tell you that he never heard of the UN. And that he loves his school.

Posted by: jennypalmer1 | July 17, 2010 5:24 PM | Report abuse

bsallamack,

Not politically correct for whom? IB is totally politically correct for the Progressives, not for constitutional Conservatives.

Posted by: lisamc31
...............................
"Political correctness is for the opportunist sycophants with totally closed and deformed minds and it does not belong in the public schools." ~bsallamack

You seem a bit confused, ballsack. I'm about as "politically incorrect" as they come. .

Posted by: lisamc31
.................................
jennypalmer1,

So you'll admit to being lectured to by your kid about what kind of light bulbs to use but not the tooth brushing restrictions. Ok. Please read about the UN's Agenda 21 and get back to me.

Posted by: lisamc31
.................................
I just love how Jay and IB supporters cannot refute the fact that IBO is an NGO of UNESCO and promotes the UN agenda...
Posted by: lisamc31
.................................
Political correctness is is for the opportunist sycophants with totally closed and deformed minds.

These are the opportunist sycophants who will use the acceptance of the political correctness of many on the far right who pretend there is world conspiracy of a UN agenda against the United States.

Not very different from the political correctness of the Russian communists or the political correctness of the Nazi party about the dangers of the world conspiracy of Jews.

The arguments of lisamc31 are the spittle of the political correctness of the far right or of constitutional conservatives as used by lisamc31, with automatic attack dog barking of the UN agenda, and concern for the environment.

The posts of lisamc31 should be used as a warning of political correctness of any form and especially of the far right.

Political correctness is for the opportunist sycophants and for the mindless who believe that spittle and ranting is debate.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 17, 2010 5:36 PM | Report abuse

CrimsonWife said, "If IB was truly about educational standards and not about indoctrination, it would allow any student to sit for its exams the way the College Board allows anyone to sit for the AP exams. But it doesn't- only those enrolled in an IB-approved course may sit for the exam."
-----
The problem with this is that the IB score is not just for the exam. The exam, called the "external assessment", is part of the score while the "internal assessment", which varies based on the topic of the class, is the other part. The internal assessment can be an oral presentation, lengthy paper, or some other form of assessment (performance and composition in IB Music for instance) based on the type of class. An English score is based on two papers, one junior year and one senior year, an oral, and two days of exam. This would make taking the exam without the class less feasible.

-----
Jay Mathews wrote, "Students who don't want to get the IB diploma, which also requires taking six IB exams, can take fewer IB courses and tests and look just as good to colleges as students taking the same number of AP courses and tests"
----
Just sayin', this is not true because IB classes are frequently two years. Taking the same number of IB classes, time-wise and effort-wise, therefore, yields half as many (maybe 65% as many) exams, and therefore significantly less credit with colleges, than equal amounts of AP time and work gets you.

Posted by: sarahee | July 17, 2010 6:12 PM | Report abuse

McLoughlin thinks IB is bad because it charges schools much more than AP does for its services, because it is more difficult to get college credit for good scores on IB exams, and because she thinks it promotes what she calls "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda."
.................................
From the posts of the opponents of IB perhaps Mr. Mathews should have never covered the website of McLoughlin since this web site is not based on improving public education but a political agenda in opposition to a supposed socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda.

We do not need the politcal cant of political correctness of the far right who now call themselves constitutional conservatives.

Neither do we need the cant of the political correctness of not admitting the problems of the Title 1 poverty public schools who now call themselves progressives and speak of achievement gaps.

What we do need is the ideas of the old school of liberals. Liberals knew that poverty if not dealt with became very expensive in crime, jails, more police, and a large drain on every aspect of society.

Poverty produced many individuals that were not useful for society and were only a drain on society.

These liberals would have known that government would have to deal with the problems of Title 1 poverty public schools to lessen poverty, since the expenses to our society would only increase with the increase in poverty.

By the way the old school of liberals would have placed birth control centers and abortion centers in the poverty neighborhoods of Title 1 poverty public schools as a cost effective method to lessen the poverty population.

But then the old school of liberals were realists.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 17, 2010 6:41 PM | Report abuse

IB is a cult, but a fairly harmless one. Snobby: yes. Expensive: definitely. Also, profoundly silly.

Seriously, would you shell out a bunch of money to a group that makes up words like "international-mindedness"?

Jay, you gotta write about the Wilson AP lit teacher who got "ineffective" IMPACT scores. What's the story?

Posted by: Nemessis | July 17, 2010 7:54 PM | Report abuse

"We do not need the politcal [SIC] cant of political correctness of the far right who now call themselves constitutional conservatives." ~ballsack

Oh, but you do. ;-)

Nemessis,

Excellent!

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 17, 2010 8:22 PM | Report abuse

I think the IB stuff sounds interesting and wish they had that when I was in school.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 17, 2010 9:18 PM | Report abuse

"We do not need the politcal [SIC] cant of political correctness of the far right who now call themselves constitutional conservatives." ~ballsack

Posted by: lisamc31
...................................
Quite right that political is spelt incorrectly.

Glad that you agree with everything else in my comment since your comment only concerns my misspelling.

Glad that I have been able to convince you of the emptiness of the political correctness of the far right who now call themselves constitutional conservatives and of all political correctness.

There is an movie called the The Farmer's Daughter which you perhaps should see. There is one scene at a political rally where someone tells Loretta Young that the crowd will yell approval if some one yells out fish, and then demonstrates this and the emptiness of political correctness.

Dig Baby Dig.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 17, 2010 9:21 PM | Report abuse

IB is a cult, but a fairly harmless one. Snobby: yes. Expensive: definitely. Also, profoundly silly.

Seriously, would you shell out a bunch of money to a group that makes up words like "international-mindedness"?

Jay, you gotta write about the Wilson AP lit teacher who got "ineffective" IMPACT scores. What's the story?

Posted by: Nemessis
..........................
Both AP and IB are over rated. This is especially true when middle class and affluent high schools are laying off teachers.

"international-mindedness" is a little pretentious but consider that in the 2008 campaign for Vice President there was a candidate that did not know that Africa was a continent and not a nation. This candidate could have used some "international-mindedness" or at least a class in geography.

The AP classes are also rather pretentious but are good for writing since students are forced to write essays in class. Pay a great of money for this does not make sense since any teacher should be able to do this.

If the economy ever does improve I could see programs to bring in public college adjunct instructors on a part time basis to teach at public schools. This would be less expensive than either AP or IB since the only expense would be textbooks and the salaries of the adjunct professor.

I did not go to a very good public high school but even in this school there were teachers with advanced degrees that were capable of teaching honor classes. Of course in the current climate of political correctness this would be viewed as undemocratic. Students in those days were actually placed in classes by their abilities and not tossed haphazardly into classes.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 17, 2010 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Oh Ballsack, how dysfunctional are you that you fail to understand that in the United States, when one refers to what is "PC", they are referring to what has been defined as "PC" by the Progressives. You and your ilk don't consider the Tea Party movement "politically correct". You feel the need to call us Nazis and racists. We laugh at the hypocrisy of your "political correctness" as it is based on fear and lies instead of the truth.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 17, 2010 9:49 PM | Report abuse

"but consider that in the 2008 campaign for Vice President there was a candidate that did not know that Africa was a continent and not a nation"

Bold faced lie. But we DO have a Vice President who thinks J-O-B-S is a 3 letter word and a President who thinks there are 57 States.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 17, 2010 9:52 PM | Report abuse

In their own words:
Biden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-eeWow_WU
Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

All you have are quips from disgruntled McCain campaign workers. Kinda like AP vs. IB. Facts vs. hearsay and propaganda.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 17, 2010 10:14 PM | Report abuse

"but consider that in the 2008 campaign for Vice President there was a candidate that did not know that Africa was a continent and not a nation"

Bold faced lie.
Posted by: lisamc31
........................................
Fox news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWZHTJsR4Bc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc0YPh7v-54

It really is impossible for the believers of political correctness to deal with reality.

Drill Baby Drill

Posted by: bsallamack | July 17, 2010 10:37 PM | Report abuse

LOLOLOLOLOL! That's great - you fell for it, I knew you were that much of an idiot. For you see, before I posted my Biden & Obama videos, I researched YOU TUBE for footage of Palin actually saying, in her own words, live on video, that Africa was not a continent, and guess what? IT DOESN'T EXIST!

So, a left-wing loon thinks just because Carl Cameron from FOX News reports that a disgruntled McCain worker said that Palin said something so stupid, I will believe it to be true? You assume that if I hear it on FOX, I accept it as the gospel? Well, that just shows what a fool you are. Even MSNBC used the FOX clip, hysterical!

"It is not a good idea to try to put anything over on McLoughlin." ~Jay Mathews

Remember Ballsack, this article is about Truth and Untruth. The Left and IB make ridiculous claims and then try and find one or two hearsay sources to back up their rhetoric. The Right, (or as you would say, the politically correct right like Glenn Beck) rely on actual video/audio footage of HISTORY. Truth vs. hearsay/propaganda. Learn the difference.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 6:45 AM | Report abuse

Some of these comments are insults and show that the person commenting has no interest in education.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 18, 2010 10:50 AM | Report abuse

celestun100,

When IB supporters with a left-wing agenda come in here and insult me spreading lies and propaganda, I have no qualms about insulting them. This proves what a SCAM the IB educational programmes are and this is all about education - education which I believe in public schools should be APOLITICAL.

Public education should be about improving achievement, developing skills, increasing core knowledge, not trying to turn kids into "global citizens". Because the people who believe THAT should be the goal of American public schools, are simply a few cards shy of a full deck. And so I will make again, the point that Jay seems to consistently avoid despite the FACT that 90% of the IB schools in the U.S. are public and that over 1/3 of ALL of the IB schools in the world are in the U.S. - the IB programmes are not worthy of our hard earned taxdollars. They are not worthy of disrupting systems which can be improved, but don't need to be discarded. IB calls itself "transformative education".

Well, we've seen the "fundamental transformation" this President seeks to impose on our great country and the majority of Americans don't want it. IBO can sell its snakeoil to private schools and Islamic madrassas all it wants. Keep IB out of American public schools.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

I think it is extremely important for our students to learn about other countries and how others think (to the extent that that can be taught).

Posted by: celestun100 | July 18, 2010 12:18 PM | Report abuse

What is wrong with being a global citizen? We are all global citizens on this planet.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 18, 2010 12:21 PM | Report abuse

I do have some direct experience with the IB program in our district. My teenager attends a small private school. Two years ago, my child pursued the IB program, because we wanted a higher bar and we did not want to be involved in the general curriculum in our "dumbed down" district, which has very few good schools and many behavior and violence issues in the high schools. We felt IB would be an independent curriculum that is accountable to IBO. My child is strong in math and science, so I asked questions about the "generic" IB math. The IB coordinator seemed to know nothing about the details of the classes so directed me to the guidance counselor. Our private school offers "regular" math classes in Honors and AP tracks: Algebra I, II, Geometry, Advance Math and Trig, AP Calculus, and Statistics. So when all I did was ask what IB Math is (which had a very nebulous description on the class listing), a moment of silence followed by, "Well, maybe your child would rather take AP math if he has a strong math ability." Then I asked about science - same thing. Then I asked about the scheduling. Apparently, my child would then be off the IB track because taking AP classes messes up the schedule of an IB student - who should be taking all the classes with other IB students. Needless to say, I was so not impressed.

While waiting for the IB interview, I glanced through a book on IB sitting on the side table. As a student and teacher of the Holocaust, I was appalled at IB's treatment of Hitler's reign of terror. Hitler was not evil or wrong, but simply "inconsistent". That was all I needed to know. My child was accepted into IB, due to excellent academic record, but we declined.

From what I have learned from other parents, most of the rigorous work involved is just busy work, with little content, meaning, or purpose. It is indoctrination in my opinion. To each his own, but IB in our district is extremely small, with fewer students "buying" into it each year. They only have it in one high school and one middle school. Parents are smart here.

Posted by: concerned36 | July 18, 2010 12:31 PM | Report abuse

Dear concerned36,

Thank you so much for your post. Would you mind sharing what State you live in?

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 12:43 PM | Report abuse

celestun200

You don't need IB to learn about other cultures. You just need an opportunity to learn world history and geography. For an example of a curriculum that offers a lot of world history and geography without a lot of cult-like nonsense, take a look at the Core Knowledge sequence.

http://coreknowledge.org/

Posted by: Nemessis | July 18, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

lisamc31, I live in the Richmond, Virginia area. The IB program we pursued was in the public school system. I didn't even know it was offered in private schools.

Posted by: concerned36 | July 18, 2010 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, concerned36. Jay is over-obsessed with Maryland where his IBO bosses are moving to and Fairfax. For someone who advocates this "global" programme, it might improve his journalism if he bothered to listen to parents outside of Metro DC.

Nemessis,

Right on. I love E.D.Hirsch, jr. True brilliance. When my kids were little, I supplemented their elementary educations with Hirsch's books "What Every First Grader Should Know", etc.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 2:05 PM | Report abuse

celestun200

You don't need IB to learn about other cultures. You just need an opportunity to learn world history and geography. For an example of a curriculum that offers a lot of world history and geography without a lot of cult-like nonsense, take a look at the Core Knowledge sequence.

Posted by: Nemessis
.................................
Well, we've seen the "fundamental transformation" this President seeks to impose on our great country and the majority of Americans don't want it. IBO can sell its snakeoil to private schools and Islamic madrassas all it wants. Keep IB out of American public schools.

Posted by: lisamc31
.............................

The only cult-like nonsense I am seeing is the opponents of IB who make wild claims of a mysterious UN agenda.

We may laugh at the insanity of those in Texas who want to misrepresent history by rewriting the textbooks for public schools as reported by Valerie Strauss but when you see these kooks in action you start to see the danger they represent to our society.

No cogent or rational argument is offered by these opponents of IB except spittle and ravings and claims that IB is part of a plot of the President.

Apparently in this time of troubles and problems for America we see up close the tactics of the far right who have climbed out of the wood work as the Nazi party did in Germany.

Offer no reason but simply seek opportunities to attack with spittle and ranting.

Perhaps Jay Mathews should be praised for this opportunity to see these kooks close up.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 2:13 PM | Report abuse

My last comment on this issue is this. Everywhere I have seen IB offered, it is one choice among many. In my county, there are 58 public elementary schools - one offers IB PYP. We have 16 middle schools, 3 offer MYP, although there are also traditional classes in those schools. Of 16 high schools, 2 offer IB as well as other options. No one has to take IB. So my advice: if you don't like IB, don't sign your child up for IB. Pretty simple solution. However, many people do like IB, and we will continue to apply to these programs, and support them. You have every right to utilize other educational options for your family, and I have every right to go to IB, or Cambridge, or AP, or whatever my county has to offer.

There are costs associated with PYP. At my school, these costs are not covered by the county. We have numerous fundraisers throughout the year to pay for the Spanish language program, etc. Because this program, and others, are important to the parents, we are willing to support and pay for them. Again, this is our choice. This works for my kids. My goal is always to find the best possible place for my boys to learn. I am sure that is the goal of every parent.

Again, if you don't like IB, you have the right to keep your kids out of it. However, you don't have the right to deny it to my kids.

Posted by: jennypalmer1 | July 18, 2010 2:29 PM | Report abuse

Jay is over-obsessed with Maryland where his IBO bosses are moving to and Fairfax. For someone who advocates this "global" programme, ...

Posted by: lisamc31
....................................
Readers might know that I have opposed in the past the opinion of Jay Mathews with rational arguments, or at least an attempt at rational argument.

Apparently the politically correct far right that hide themselves with their claim of being constitutional conservatives can not offer rational argument about ideas but instead attempt to slur Mr. Mathews for being controlled by IBO bosses and advocating a global program.

These are the tactics of the party of political correctness of Drill Baby Drill, global conspiracies, and the Federal government can offer no solution except to stay out of the way of business.

They can not offer convincing argument in their opposition of other views or ideas, and but always have to fall back on slurs in attempts to enrage others.

They follow their party line of political correctness and are no different from the followers of the party of the old communists or of those who followed the party line of the Nazi party.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 2:51 PM | Report abuse

While waiting for the IB interview, I glanced through a book on IB sitting on the side table. As a student and teacher of the Holocaust, I was appalled at IB's treatment of Hitler's reign of terror. Hitler was not evil or wrong, but simply "inconsistent". That was all I needed to know. My child was accepted into IB, due to excellent academic record, but we declined.

Posted by: concerned36
...................................
I find this surprising since in European countries it is a crime to deny that the Holocaust occurred and Germany put on trial an English citizen that was a denier of the Holocaust.

As a parent you made a decision based on very little evidence which makes sense since parents do not have the time to research everything.

My daughter took an AP world history class that did not even cover the second World War.

My daughter at one point could have taken an elective class of the Holocaust and I advised her not to take it as any class that really covered the Holocaust would have been completely depressing. I remember the films of the bulldozers pushing the bodies into the mass graves and the shock of seeing a number tattooed on the arm of a college teacher.

I would have preferred if the public schools offered a course on Hitler that covered how Hitler came to power in Germany and was allowed to release his madness on the world.

It might help this nation when there are current political movements that are using the same tactics of hate and spittle against supposed enemies of the United States and their opponents in the United States that were used effectively by the Nazi with their attacks against the international conspiracy of the Jews.

It is interesting that the far right is claiming that we are a republic and not a democracy while totally ignoring that Hitler legally came to power in Germany when Germany was a republic.

This nation might not need programs such as IB or AP but it certainly needs history classes regarding modern world history.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 3:39 PM | Report abuse

The Weimar Republic in Germany was a parliamentary democracy. The Nazi party was a socialist party, which was put into power to lead Germany with only one third of the votes - a plurality of votes. The first thing Hitler did was create a state of emergency - he burned down the Reichstag - whereby he could suspend civil rights and rewrite just and ethical German laws with his own laws. As some say, "Never let a crisis go to waste." While Hitler (far right) opposed the Communists (far left), this is irrelevant since both are totalitarian fascist regimes and both crush dissent and cleanse out undesirables.

In reading through the discussion, it seems to we are having a discussion about IB program with varying opinions. The only one who is disparaging others is bsallamack, who is projecting his own tactics onto the "far right", whose opinions he does not agree with. We all have opinions without having to wear a label, such as the yellow star of David. Does everyone have to have the same opinion?

As far as conspiracy goes, there has always been conspiracy since time immemorial. Why does anyone think there is not a world conspiracy? What is the G20 all about? Why have a United Nations, when everyone knows the nations are not united? Why have summits? What is it about? Why have a European Union, when all of Europe is not united?

I have heard that when IB students write their papers, they must have the particular pc stance or get graded down. Is this true? This can also be true in some universities and colleges. I do not think this is fair - to say that one must have the "correct" opinion or get a bad grade. So students just go to school to "play the game" and lie to get the "right" grade.

Posted by: concerned36 | July 18, 2010 4:09 PM | Report abuse

The Right, (or as you would say, the politically correct right like Glenn Beck) rely on actual video/audio footage of HISTORY. Truth vs. hearsay/propaganda. Learn the difference.

Posted by: lisamc31
..........................
It is no surprise to find out that you are a believer in Glenn Beck.

By your reliance on only "actual video/audio footage of HISTORY" the claims of the brutality of Stalin should not be accepted, or claims that Hitler intended to kill every Jew in Europe should not be accepted.

Why without video/audio footage there was no such things as an American Revolutionary War and this war is only hearsay/propaganda.

The far right who take offense at being compared to the Nazi party while at the same time are so willing to show their willingness to distort truth and continuously repeat the distortion of truth.

The claims of Republican strategists of Sarah Palin not knowing that Africa was a continent and not a nation are supposedly lies because there is no video or audio tape. The far right continues this distortion even though Americans saw on national TV her almost non existent knowledge in foreign affairs.

Repeat the distortion of the truth continuously and it will be accepted as truth is clearly out of the playbook of Goebbels of the Nazi party.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 4:18 PM | Report abuse

"It might help this nation when there are current political movements that are using the same tactics of hate and spittle against supposed enemies of the United States and their opponents in the United States that were used effectively by the Nazi with their attacks against the international conspiracy of the Jews." Posted by: bsallamack

Can you explain what political movements are using hate and spittle against supposed enemies of the United States and their opponents in the United States? I know I am persecuted and ridiculed quite a bit these days for my belief in Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus), who I believe is the Anointed One who died for every sinner and is returning soon to save the whole world. I believe he is the ONLY Savior - the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that NO ONE comes to G-d the Father except through Him! He claimed this, in the Bible. I have never seen Him or the Father or the Holy Spirit but I do know that there is strong evidence that He exists, and many stories of miracles that you would probably laugh at. Nevertheless, one day every knee will bow. But today, this Savior has many, many enemies and His followers will be suffer much by these enemies soon. This is why we need to preserve our freedoms in this country as long as possible, so we can tell the TRUTH! Soon we will not be able to dissent or speak the truth!

Posted by: concerned36 | July 18, 2010 4:39 PM | Report abuse

I just think it's very scary that bsallamack has produced offspring.

God bless you, concerned36. Truth will prevail.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 5:09 PM | Report abuse

In reading through the discussion, it seems to we are having a discussion about IB program with varying opinions. The only one who is disparaging others is bsallamack, who is projecting his own tactics onto the "far right", whose opinions he does not agree with.
Posted by: concerned36
..............................
The Right, (or as you would say, the politically correct right like Glenn Beck) rely on actual video/audio footage of HISTORY. Truth vs. hearsay/propaganda. Learn the difference.

Posted by: lisamc31
....................
IB is a cult, but a fairly harmless one. Snobby: yes. Expensive: definitely. Also, profoundly silly.

Posted by: Nemessis
.............................
Your argument falls flat when your there appears to be no mention of the comments of supporters of your opposition to IB from lisamc31 and Nemessis that are simply claims of a UN agenda, cults and conspiracy.

...............................
Well, we've seen the "fundamental transformation" this President seeks to impose on our great country and the majority of Americans don't want it.

Posted by: lisamc31
...................................

Yes I am disparaging others who are offering what appeared to be far right rants and has been admitted to be from those of the far right.

Your only contribution to the discussion about IB is your report of not being happy with some information that you saw briefly regarding Hitler in IB literature.

You did not even provide a quote from this literature and only your opinion of the literature.

Your statement "The Nazi party was a socialist party..." simply shows your poor knowledge of history since this supposedly "socialist"party was just as willing to kill the real socialists along with the democrats and any other group that opposed their views.

Is there any surprise that political opportunist such as Hitler will use meaningless names to obtain power? Your knowledge of history does not appear to even be that Hitler joined an existing party and did not name the party.

From your words I can see that you would probably opposed to any course that did not portray and label Hitler as a socialist.

And you should reread the actual article that is under discussion.
...........................
In some instances, critics have charged IB with promoting unconventional, cult-like philosophies.
.............................
and because she thinks it promotes what she calls "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda."
..............................
So far the opponents of IB have provided rants against IB and no valid evidence against IB.

The only thing I have seen so far from the opponents of IB is rants and now we have reports of an "enemy" who is disparaging the far right and their rants against IB.

If the opponents of IB do not want anything else besides oppostions to their posts of rants and poor logic they should start to provide comments that are logical and not just party line doctrine of the far right.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 5:11 PM | Report abuse

I just think it's very scary that bsallamack has produced offspring.

God bless you, concerned36. Truth will prevail.

Posted by: lisamc31
.............................
The intellectual level of the far right and most of their prior comments in opposition to IB.

When the far right has to face critical exploration of their seriously flawed ideas they can only provide meaningless comments.

I wonder if lisamc31 is actually Lisa McLoughlin.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 5:22 PM | Report abuse

You wonder if lisamc31 is really Lisa McLoughlin? LOL! Yeah, okay ballsack. What deep thoughts. Sharp as a tack. Lisamc31 is really Lisa McLoughlin's evil twin. You figured it out. What a brainstormer you are!

Now back away from the shrooms..... slowly .....and take the red pill, no NOT the blue pill ballsack .....are you completely incapable of following directions? Good grief!

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 5:43 PM | Report abuse

"It might help this nation when there are current political movements that are using the same tactics of hate and spittle against supposed enemies of the United States and their opponents in the United States that were used effectively by the Nazi with their attacks against the international conspiracy of the Jews." Posted by: bsallamack


But today, this Savior has many, many enemies and His followers will be suffer much by these enemies soon. This is why we need to preserve our freedoms in this country as long as possible, so we can tell the TRUTH! Soon we will not be able to dissent or speak the truth!

Posted by: concerned36
.............................
Notice how it always "the TRUTH" and never the truth how I see it, or the truth that I believe in.

Apparently there is a supposedly collective truth that we are all supposed to accept and that those who know the "the TRUTH" are the arbiters of everything that is opposed to "the TRUTH".

Why do I see a similarity of these individuals to the extreme fundamentalists of Islam who know the "the TRUTH" and will not allow girls to be educated, to the Nazis with their "the TRUTH" about racial purity, and the Soviets with their "the TRUTH" of communism.

This nation needs free discourse on ideas in public education and not a public education system built on prejudice of ideas and thought from those who believe they know "the TRUTH".

Let those who know "the TRUTH" settle themselves with private schools and not attempt to inject themselves in the public schools in a nation built upon the principles of the separation of church and state.

The public schools already have enough problems with the politicians who want to teach views favorable to their political party in the distortion of history.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 6:09 PM | Report abuse

You wonder if lisamc31 is really Lisa McLoughlin? LOL! Yeah, okay ballsack. What deep thoughts. Sharp as a tack. Lisamc31 is really Lisa McLoughlin's evil twin. You figured it out.

Posted by: lisamc31
...............................
Does this mean that you are actually Lisa McLoughlin or just a clone?

A yes or no would really be quite simple.

It would be nice to know if the comments signed by lisamc31 are actually from the Lisa McLoughlin mentioned in the article.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 6:17 PM | Report abuse

Again, if you don't like IB, you have the right to keep your kids out of it. However, you don't have the right to deny it to my kids.

Posted by: jennypalmer1
.................................
Thankfully there are other Americans who see the value of free choice in public education and are not willing to listen to the opponents of IB who can not offer anything in regard to their opposition of IB except their unwillingness for students to be exposed to new ideas.

We have enough problems from the politicians in regard to our public schools.

We continually have the bashing of teacher unions in a nations where teachers in unions are doing a very good job in the majority of the middle class and affluent public schools.

I have never been a union member and not even a large fan of unions but when the teaching of facts and ideas in the public schools is being attempted to be controlled by political opportunists, I believe that teaching unions may be the only thing that will prevent politicians from firing public schools teachers simply on the basis that they are not willing to teach the party line.

We have already had cases of opportunist politicians wanting to fire librarians who did not want to censure books in public libraries.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 6:38 PM | Report abuse

I think the IB stuff sounds interesting and wish they had that when I was in school.

Posted by: celestun100
............................
Not if the party of the far right who oppose IB would have been around when you went to school.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 6:51 PM | Report abuse

ginodisimone, Please, please move to Virginia and run for Governor HERE!

Posted by: concerned36 | July 18, 2010 6:52 PM | Report abuse

"Again, if you don't like IB, you have the right to keep your kids out of it. However, you don't have the right to deny it to my kids." ~jennypalmer

Ah, the self-righteous sense of entitlement of the IB lovers. A little tip jenny, there are states where there aren't schools of choice. There are districts with only one elementary, middle and high school. Those are the districts where the insistence of people like you that you have the "right" to IB and if other taxpayers and parents don't like it can MOVE, is anti-American and selfish.

If you want IB so bad, then pay tuition to a private school for it. But you have no "right" to insist that people who oppose this expensive indoctrination have to provide it for your children.

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical". ~Thomas Jefferson

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 7:13 PM | Report abuse

ginodisimone, Please, please move to Virginia and run for Governor HERE!

Posted by: concerned36
................................
Gino DiSimone is an independent running for Governor of Nevada.

His websites indicates that he is fully known as a supporter of the opposition of IB.

"TAIB endorses Gino DiSimone for Governor of Nevada 2010."

I am surprise that concerned36 was not aware of this fact.

Viewing this website indicates that he is a candidate who wants to not accept any federal funds for public education.

He is a know supporter of the tea party.

Given the previous expressed religious views of concerned36, I am surprised at the support of concerned36 this candidate.

Nothing on his website indicates that if elected as governor that he will make prostitution or gambling illegal in Nevada.

The below is the website for this candidate.
http://www.ginoforgovernor.com/

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 7:33 PM | Report abuse

Gino for Gov! Go Gino!

That's right, TAIB, my website and I, Lisa McLoughlin, have endorsed Gino DiSimone for Governor of Nevada where tiny Incline Village on Lake Tahoe is mired in controversy over IB.

I'm a Libertarian, bsallamack. What makes you think Libertarians oppose legalized prostitution and gambling? Do you think Christians can't be Libertarians? There's an old saying, live and let live. Unfortunately, the left-wingers feel the need to create a Nanny state that controls every aspect of our lives.

God gave us free will. You seek to take that away. The line has been drawn in the sand. We WILL take back our country in November.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 7:51 PM | Report abuse

"Again, if you don't like IB, you have the right to keep your kids out of it. However, you don't have the right to deny it to my kids." ~jennypalmer

Ah, the self-righteous sense of entitlement of the IB lovers. A little tip jenny, there are states where there aren't schools of choice. There are districts with only one elementary, middle and high school.

Posted by: lisamc31
....................................
The nonsense of lisamc31 is really absurd.

Almost all of the public school systems in this nation choosing IB, AP, or some other form of enrichment program are paid for by the property taxes of the individuals that live there and the majority of parents support these type of programs.

Now we have the empty headed declaring it is unfair for parents who pay for their public schools to choose to spend some of the money on enrichment programs.

Apparently lisamc31 does not like the idea that majorities living in local communities make the decision on how their money is spent.

Apparently instead of majorities, individual like lisamc31 should dictate how the money of others is spent.

These far right or tea party kooks should stick to their Drill Baby Drill slogans since when they are forced to write down their positions they only display the lack of thought that are in their half baked ideas.

They claim that it preposterous to compare themselves to the Nazi party while they show total contempt for the rights of others and a desire to impose their ideas no matter how ludicrous on others.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 8:17 PM | Report abuse

preposterous, is right!

Posted by: celestun100 | July 18, 2010 8:37 PM | Report abuse

The "majorities" in some communities are not being listened to. The "majorities" in some communities in this country are being FORCED by school administrators to have IB shoved down their throats.

http://truthaboutib.com/ibbuyersbeware/ibininclinevillagenv.html

http://truthaboutib.com/ibbuyersbeware/ibinmonticellony.html

http://truthaboutib.com/ibbuyersbeware/ibincoeurdaleneid.html

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 18, 2010 8:48 PM | Report abuse

bsallamack, did you see this post earlier? Here it is:

Dear Jay,
Honestly, America was the greatest academic entity in the world. When we began to believe we should adopt world practices, we initiated American academic decline from prominence. America has only one course of action, eliminate IB or any other educational process that brings America aligned with the world. American education must be the leader, as it once was, not the follower of academic processes. Get back to basics and retain the highest command of academics using past methods that had us the envy of the world. Let the world follow us.

I am running for Governor of Nevada and I will completely terminate IB in Nevada if elected. Moreover, I will completely terminate the federal funding of Nevada education and we will not follow federal education directives. Nevada will rewrite the curriculum and end all social engineering, including sex education (incidentally, I highly recommend that you investigate the sex education content of IB, it is reprehensible).

Lisa has her facts right on target. I challenged many of them and she is quite correct.

There is not a debate as to whether IB is good because it is not. It is destructive to the American superiority of scholastic aptitude. I will not tolerate it or allow it. What I cannot seem to understand is why you and many others are willing to entertain alternatives that have historically taken America to a lower standard. I am not interested in global alignment or mediocrity for Nevada education. Nevada education will be the standard that the world must strive for.

Posted by: ginodisimone | July 15, 2010 10:13 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: concerned36 | July 18, 2010 8:52 PM | Report abuse

Gino for Gov! Go Gino!

That's right, TAIB, my website and I, Lisa McLoughlin, have endorsed Gino DiSimone for Governor of Nevada where tiny Incline Village on Lake Tahoe is mired in controversy over IB.

I'm a Libertarian, bsallamack. What makes you think Libertarians oppose legalized prostitution and gambling?

God gave us free will. You seek to take that away.

Posted by: lisamc31
........................
Nice to have a final answer to my question.

It would be nice if you read my post since it was addressed to concerned36 who expressed deeply seated religious views.

Since the post was not addressed to you it does not seem like much purpose in you answering it.

I see very little relationship between free will and a political movement. Free will revolved around whether we were predestined for heaven or hell by God or whether there was no predestination and free will determined whether an individual arrived in heaven or hell.

Apparently you are using the phrase "free will" simply as a meaningless slogan for your political movement.

Please remember I am not the one telling Americans that the Americans who want to have the option of an enrichment program such as IB should not have this option, even if their property taxes pay for their public schools and the majority of parents want this option in their public schools.

Apparently you have no difficulty with legalized prostitution and legalized gambling but there is a real problem if Americans freely choose how to spend their money on the public schools that they directly pay for.

When you are forced to actually write down your position and not rely on empty phrases such as free will it is clear to Americans that your movement simply wants to remove free choice from Americans.

Stick to meaningless slogans.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 8:53 PM | Report abuse

bsallamack, did you see this post earlier?
Posted by: concerned36
....................
Yes I did and responded to it.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 8:55 PM | Report abuse

The "majorities" in some communities are not being listened to. The "majorities" in some communities in this country are being FORCED by school administrators to have IB shoved down their throats.

various websites of Lisa McLoughlin

Posted by: lisamc31
.........................
Lisa posting links to your website is not very effective.

I can assure you from my knowledge of local communities of public schools system paid for by property taxes no one shoves anything down the throat of the majority in these local communities. These are the type of communities where local government are out if they are not following the will of the majority.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 9:12 PM | Report abuse

ah, bsallamack wants me to take my kids out of public school because my beliefs are contaminating others. This was what I was afraid of. It has started already. Some are in; others are out. Those on left will cleanse out those who disagree. Betcha still want me to pay my property tax, though, huh? Just not allowed to send my kids to school because of my religious beliefs. Hitler kicked the Jewish kids out of school after Nuremberg laws were passed.

Here's the thing, bsallamack. You are not sure what the truth is. That's okay. You want to invent a new truth every day. That's okay, too. But if you say 2 + 2 = 5 and I correct you with the fact that 2 + 2 = 4 not 5, are you going to tell me that truth is what we make out of our experiences and that in your experience 2 + 2 = 5? I tell you the truth for your good not to your detriment. I tell others the truth because I want them to know the truth. But if you do not want to know the truth, then I shake the dust off my feet. You have the right to believe that black is white and white is black if you wish. But I also have the right to attempt to correct you for your own good. What you do after that is your choice.

Now I do not mind a bit if my kids go to school with kids of various other religions. We are not afraid of other beliefs.

But this world is moving toward a global government, a NWO, a New World Order. You may think this will bring peace and goodwill. I can tell you right now, you are not going to like it one bit. You are going to be told what to say, how to behave, what to believe, what to wear, where to shop, what medicine to take or not, what food to buy, what car to drive, where to livet, what doctor to have or not, what medical procedure to have or not - the government will control every moment of every day in your life. You WILL NOT like it. Remember that I told you this. For you will have to remain silent while your neighbors disappear mysteriously or you hear screams in the night and gunshots. You will be paranoid and will live in fear for your life. You won't have anyone to argue with, which is quite fun for you, for all must think like you.

So just remember this when the day comes. And just remember that you said you did not want certain kids to go to public schools. And btw, the very first ammunition that Hitler used was the public school system. He took the child away from the parents, stating that the children belong to the Reich. He dumbed down the curriculum and put an emphasis on SPORTS and physical health (not academic excellence). When youth are busy playing sports, they are dumbed down and don't have time to read to learn a thing. To this day, homeschooling is illegal in Germany, although it is a much different country now than it was during the Third Reich.

There will be NO peace until the Prince of Peace comes.

Posted by: concerned36 | July 18, 2010 9:19 PM | Report abuse

ah, bsallamack wants me to take my kids out of public school because my beliefs are contaminating others.
Posted by: concerned36
...........................
This nation needs free discourse on ideas in public education and not a public education system built on prejudice of ideas and thought from those who believe they know "the TRUTH".

Let those who know "the TRUTH" settle themselves with private schools and not attempt to inject themselves in the public schools in a nation built upon the principles of the separation of church and state.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 6:09 PM
......................
Pretty far stretch from telling a parent who is not satisfied with public schools that do not teach to their idea of "the TRUTH" in regard to religion of using the choice of private school.

Yes you do have a choice.

As far as your "beliefs are contaminating others" does this mean that you want to impose your religious beliefs onto public schools?

If your answer is yes, then you would be contaminating public schools. No one should be allowed to impose their religious beliefs on public schools.

The public schools are not there to mirror the views of any religious group or even groups that have no religion.

Parents that are not content with the policy of public schools in regard to religion should look elsewhere.

The public schools by law are supposed to be religion neutral and any parent not satisfied with this should send their child to a private school.

As far as Nazi Germany I did not see a nation destroyed by public schools. I saw a nation destroyed by the political opportunists that shouted that they knew "the Truth" when all they could offer were lies and hatred. The policies of Hitler in regard to public schools came after he obtained power and not before he obtained power, so how can anyone claim this was the cause of the rise of Hitler. How easy it is to unleash lies, distortions, and falsehoods in a pretense of knowing "the TRUTH".

For Hitler and his followers there was no peace until the arrival of the Prince of Darkness, and apparently this is true today with those who are so willing to use lies, distortion, and falsehood in an attempt to achieve their ends.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 18, 2010 10:19 PM | Report abuse

"As far as your "beliefs are contaminating others" does this mean that you want to impose your religious beliefs onto public schools?

Nice try, BSallnightlong, but that is not even close to what Concerned36 said. IB programs are contaminating our public schools. As established, our public schools should be secular and apolitical. You seek to force your left-wing indoctrination into the system. We oppose it. IB is the program that belongs in private schools, just as any sort of religious education belongs in private schools.

I said it before and I'll say it again. IB is free to sell its snakeoil to any private educational institution it wants. IB zealots can pay tuition to send their little "global citizens" to those schools. The conversations on this board perfectly demonstrate the extreme politics of those who endorse IB. Any program that is as controversial and expensive as IB does NOT belong in American public schools.

IB has the audacity to claim it knows how to teach children to identify propaganda and "know" the truth. IB IS a religion, it preaches pantheism, socialist economics and a one world view. IB is anti-national pride and anti-individualism.

IB's propaganda surrounding its programs is unparalleled in education. Has there ever been such divisiveness and controversy over a science research program like Intel? No. Have there ever been protests and petitions against offering AP classes in a HS? No. Since Jay and IB zealots like to compare the cost of IB to sports teams, have there ever been protests and petitions against running a HS football team? No.

IB ideologues need to take their fringe extremist program into the private market. You are not "entitled" to force your extreme ideological relativistic educational program on the rest of us and expect us to pay for it as well.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 8:24 AM | Report abuse

Jay,

I've read the Fordham report a few times. The purpose was to determine whether AP and IB truly deserved the "gold stars" in "pre-college curricula". It had nothing to do with whether there should be college credit given. Maybe introductory college courses are lousy. But at least you know what you're getting if AP is working with the colleges to develop the curriculum.

Don't get me wrong. I think IB Math SL would be more fun. I'd get to concentrate on specific issues that are my strengths -- kind of like doing a thesis. That just doesn't align with an introductory college course. In fact, other than calculus, I'm not sure WHAT an introductory college math course has.

The Fordham report, in its assessment of IB Math SL, says "gaps in the SL curriculum constitute a serious deficit" and "treatment of calculus in the SL course is also thin". In its conclusion, it says:

"if a student intends to take more math courses at the university level, it is not clear where that student should be placed. What university mathematics courses have as their prerequisites a small amount of calculus, but no exposure to complex numbers, almost no geometry, a spotty background in trigonometry, a smattering of linear algebra, and a good bit of statistics? Perhaps the answer is “more statistics courses.”" They even say there are "gaps" in the IB Math HL program.

Is that some sort of endorsement of the program?


Posted by: MG14 | July 19, 2010 8:39 AM | Report abuse

MG14,

It is also important to note that regarding IB's History of the Americas course The Fordham Report states:

"In short, this option is neither detailed nor rich enough to serve as the sole course in U.S. history for American high school students."

As to IB's World History course, Fordham gives it a 'C' for content.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 9:05 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the good information, lisamc31 and MG14.

Learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDyDtYy2I0M

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm

In order to teach in a public school in the U.S., one must read Bloom's Taxonomy and do what it says or risk losing their jobs. This is what "teacher certification" really means. You must be skilled in indoctrination techniques - to challenge students' fixed beliefs (i.e., what their parents have taught them at home!):

http://authorityresearch.com/ARTICLES_Other/Bloom's%20Taxonomies%20part%20one%20Quotations.htm

Posted by: concerned36 | July 19, 2010 9:38 AM | Report abuse

MG14,

Regarding Math SL course: what you and the Fordham reviewer don't seem to understand is that each IB course has a number of options a teacher/school district can choose from in addition to the core material, and what options are chosen determines the content of the particular course. In particular, one option is covering more calculus instead of some of the other topics you mentioned. Many school districts in the US in fact choose this option, so that Math SL course covers the same amount of calculus as AP calculus AB plus some additional topics. Similarly, Math HL with an appropriate choice of options covers AP calculus BC plus additional material like intro to linear algebra, number theory, etc.

So yes, in terms of comparison with the intro college courses the university has to look at the actual syllabus to compare with its introductory courses. But, like I said, these are the options chosen by many schools in the states.

One should also note that these days many universities include in their calculus courses material which strictly speaking goes beyond calculus (but is a good example of how calculus is applied and is expected in the subsequently taken science and engineering courses), e.g. elementary ordinary differential equations (ODEs), mathematical modeling etc. This material is now in most standard college calculus books but last time I checked, some of it, e.g. the integrating factor technique of solving linear first order ODEs, was not included in the AP BC syllabus. Yet it is covered in the HL Math course. And there is also material which is included in the intro college textbooks but appears in neither IB nor AP syllabi, e.g. second order ODEs.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 19, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

"what you and the Fordham reviewer don't seem to understand is that each IB course has a number of options a teacher/school district can choose from in addition to the core material, and what options are chosen determines the content of the particular course."

Well, that pretty much dispels IBO's claim that IB is an "internationally standardized curriculum" so that what is taught in an IB school in India is the same as what is taught in an IB school in Texas, now doesn't it? ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 12:09 PM | Report abuse

"Well, that pretty much dispels IBO's claim that IB is an "internationally standardized curriculum" so that what is taught in an IB school in India is the same as what is taught in an IB school in Texas, now doesn't it?"~lisamc31

The curriculum is standardized in the sense that core topics in each course, which make up the core of the curriculum, are the same, as is the list of options. The choice of options is up to the individual school. This flexibility makes it easy to incorporate IB curriculum in different countries with different systems of secondary and higher education.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 19, 2010 12:19 PM | Report abuse

"The curriculum is standardized in the sense that core topics in each course, which make up the core of the curriculum, are the same, as is the list of options."

LOL! Ya mean kinda like a Chinese menu? Every Chinese restaurant offers pretty much the same dining "options", but does every diner eat the same meal? ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 12:50 PM | Report abuse

IB - the Chinese menu of education with a Masa, NY, price tag.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 12:58 PM | Report abuse

No, I don't mean that. Reread my post.

For someone who claims to have done a lot of "research" on IB, you clearly know very little about the program and its structure. But I guess it is only natural, given that the only purpose of your "research" is to try to find, and having found none, make up, some "evidence" for your paranoid fantasies.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 19, 2010 1:03 PM | Report abuse

For MG14--- I agree heartily that colleges should examine both AP and IB and determine if they match their standards for credit. What galls me is what usually happens---they make no such examination, and then stick with old rules that give credit for a good score on a AP exam but not for a good score on an IB exam in a similar course. The Fordham study shows that some AP and IB courses and tests are nearly identical in rigor and content. That obliges the colleges to do as you suggest, look at the AP and IB courses and tests and make a judgement. If they are similar, but both below their standards, they should give credit to neither. But the vast majority of them don't do that, and when I ask them why they give credit to one but not the other, they have no explanation, because they have devoted no time or thought to the issue and can't stir themselves to do so.

Posted by: Jay Mathews | July 19, 2010 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Jay,

Given the disparity between introductory courses at different universities, I think by far the best solution, which some universities have already adopted, is to have placement exams that determine whether a student knows enough material to skip/get credit for a particular course. That way, if the student knows the material covered in the course, whether he/she was homeschooled, took AP, IB or a dual enrollment course, then she/he is ready proceed to the next level at that particular university. This especially makes sense for courses that are required for one's major.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 19, 2010 1:36 PM | Report abuse

"The Fordham study shows that some AP and IB courses and tests are nearly identical in rigor and content." ~Jay Mathews

This is a bold misstatement of the conclusions of the Fordham Report, a report which should be discounted and discredited in its entirety due to the fraudulent changing of the Math Professor's grading resulting in his request to have his name withdrawn from the report.

Did you not read what PatrickMattimore stated about IBO needing to do the work to prove a 1:1 of its courses with freshman university courses with the universities the way the College Board has done?

And I also refer you to the UCAS tariff table which provides equivalencies for a variety of diplomas (Welsh, French), AP, IB, etc. There's no reason U.S. universities couldn't adopt the UCAS standards here in the U.S.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 2:05 PM | Report abuse

No, I don't mean that. Reread my post.

For someone who claims to have done a lot of "research" on IB, you clearly know very little about the program and its structure. But I guess it is only natural, given that the only purpose of your "research" is to try to find, and having found none, make up, some "evidence" for your paranoid fantasies.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 19, 2010 1:03 PM
................................
IB ideologues need to take their fringe extremist program into the private market. You are not "entitled" to force your extreme ideological relativistic educational program on the rest of us and expect us to pay for it as well.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 8:24 AM
................................
OscarWilde you are wasting your time.

Lisa McLoughlin known as lisamc31 is not concerned with a comparison of different enrichment programs available to public schools but simply concerned with banning IB from public schools.

She is a card carrying member of the far right or constitutional conservatives and simply following the party line. Having a discussion with her is like having an open discussion about the benefits of free choice in a capitalistic society with an old style card carrying communist who will simply stick to the party line.

By the way according to the party line of the far right there is no such thing as capitalism in our nation as instead we have free trade.

It is amazing how the far right love to couple the word free with so much but abhor the idea of free thought.

In regard to Lisa McLoughlin think in terms of Sarah Palin who wanted to fire the librarian of a public library that would follow the idea of Sarah Palin to ban books.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 2:10 PM | Report abuse

BSallnight,

No need for you to "enlighten" your fellow comrade OW as to my political leanings. I'd share with you her real name, but I've been told that wouldn't be proper netiquette. We go way back, right Oscar? She's here to "police my propaganda". You can feel safe now, BSer. ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 2:26 PM | Report abuse

bsallamack,

You are right, discussing anything with lisamc31 is a waste of time, as I am well aware.

I was writing for the benefit people who are able to have a logical discussion of the issue.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 19, 2010 4:36 PM | Report abuse

BSallnight,

No need for you to "enlighten" your fellow comrade OW as to my political leanings. I'd share with you her real name, but I've been told that wouldn't be proper netiquette. We go way back, right Oscar? She's here to "police my propaganda". You can feel safe now, BSer. ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 2:26 PM
......................................
Good to know that there are others that recognize your attempts to remove free thought and free choice from the public schools.

Why not be honest and simply admit that you are opposed to "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda"?

The far right always claim that they are not like the Nazi party while they believe in not allowing free thought or free choice in the public schools, and also the banning of books and ideas.

Why not come out and admit the admiration of the far right for the Nazi party since apparently the far right is so willing to adopt their methods?

How about a little honesty and courage for a change lisamc31.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 4:42 PM | Report abuse

"Why not be honest and simply admit that you are opposed to "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda"?" ~BSallnightandday

Why not be honest? Why don't you learn how to read, dipwad? From Jay's column:

McLoughlin thinks IB is bad because it charges schools much more than AP does for its services, because it is more difficult to get college credit for good scores on IB exams, and because she thinks it promotes what she calls "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda."

I'm as honest as the day is long, comrade. Darn tootin I'm opposed to the NWO. I am an American citizen, NOT a global citizen and I will fight to defend our Constitutional liberties with everything I've got.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 4:56 PM | Report abuse

bsallamack,

You are right, discussing anything with lisamc31 is a waste of time, as I am well aware.

I was writing for the benefit people who are able to have a logical discussion of the issue.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 19, 2010 4:36 PM
.................................
lisamc31 is like most of those on the far right who are so willing to fully adopt the methods of the Nazi party and yet do not have the courage to admit their admiration of the Nazi party which was clearly far right.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 5:01 PM | Report abuse

I'm as honest as the day is long, comrade. Darn tootin I'm opposed to the NWO. I am an American citizen, NOT a global citizen and I will fight to defend our Constitutional liberties with everything I've got.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 4:56 PM
.................................
Why is it that the far right are so willing to adopt the methods and ideas of the Nazi party and so unwilling to have the courage to admit that the Nazi party was a far right party?

Are you so lacking in courage that you can not admit that the Nazi party in Germany was a far right party?

Let us know your answer.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 5:12 PM | Report abuse

You elected a President who has just authorized THE ASSASSINATION OF AMERICAN CITIZENS SUSPECTED OF TERRORISM. Don't you DARE compare me to Nazis you lowlife scum. We must IMPEACH Obama NOW!

You left-wing loons carried on when Bush passed the Patriot Act and didn't utter a peep when Obama renewed it. Now, you really DO have Hitler in the White House. Except instead of Jews, the terrorists are white Conservative Christians. Because we all know that jihad is a "legitimate tenet of the Islamic faith" and that there is no "war on terror", those homicide bombings are just "man-made-disasters".

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/07/assassinations

If this doesn't outrage you, then you ARE my enemy and an enemy of the United States.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 5:22 PM | Report abuse

lisamc31

You still have not answered my question whether the Nazi party under Hitler in Germany was a far right party or not.

Why do you not have the courage to answer a simply question?

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

I'm as honest as the day is long...

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 4:56 PM
.................................
lisamc31 we are still waiting for your answer.

Are you so lacking in courage and honesty that you can not admit that the Nazi party in Germany under Hitler was a far right party?

Let us know your answer.

Was the Nazi party in Germany under Hitler a far right party?

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse

I hope that Mr. Mathews will be more careful in the future.

The article concerning the views of Lisa McLoughlin or lisamc31 was inappropriate considering that this individual can not answer a simple historical question such as Was the the Nazi party in Germany under Hitler a far right party.

There appears to be little sense in an educational programs featuring such individuals with out qualifications.

Would it be appropriate to have a column of the views of an individual regarding the teaching of geography when the individual did not know that Africa was a continent and not a nation?

Would it be appropriate to have a column of the views of an individual who believes in banning books from public libraries?

I have repeatedly requested lisamc31 the question if the the Nazi party in Germany under Hitler was a far right party and apparently her knowledge of history is so shallow that she can not provide an answer.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 5:59 PM | Report abuse

For OscarWilde

Looks like the constitutional conservatives like lisamc31, are like the cockroaches running from light when you ask them a question that requires a simple yes or an no.

These are the pretenders that claim "I will fight to defend our Constitutional liberties with everything I've got".

Ask them if the the Nazi party in Germany under Hitler was a far right party and they run.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 6:14 PM | Report abuse

I am happy that lisamc31 and bsallamack have gotten together to enjoy each other's company. I hope they haven't frightened anyone else away. For those who desire a sense of perspective, this string has broken the month's record for comments on this blog, but here is a similar string that has been on my admissions 101 page for more than four years, and is about to hit the 8,100 comment mark.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/community/groups/index.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aa70e3396-6663-4a8d-ba19-e44939d3c44fForum%3a5093b309-eb0a-47e2-b777-ea68b9dd478eDiscussion%3ab75543d9-7206-4ad7-94a1-5918de85d565

Thankfully, the Post will in a few days close this column to comments, as is its policy, and we will not get near 8,100 posts. But we will have learned much from this exchange.

Posted by: Jay Mathews | July 19, 2010 6:21 PM | Report abuse

Hey ballsack,

Believe it or not, I have other things to do than sit in my mommy's basement and blog all day like you.

No, Hitler's party was not of the far right. It was the National Socialist Party. Hitler was a democratically elected monster and tyrant.

I am not racists, not violent, just no longer silent.

40 days and 40 nights till 8/28. Time to restore Honor in this country.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 6:26 PM | Report abuse

No, Hitler's party was not of the far right. It was the National Socialist Party. Hitler was a democratically elected monster and tyrant.

Posted by: lisamc31
....................................
Does fascism not mean the acceptance of the political policies of the far right?

Yes or No.

Was the Nazi party of Germany under Hitler a fascist government like Italy and Japan at that time?

Yes or No.

Answer these questions or are you willing to deny the definition of fascism and pretend that the Nazi government was not a fascist government.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 7:35 PM | Report abuse

I am happy that lisamc31 and bsallamack...
Posted by: Jay Mathews | July 19, 2010 6:21 PM
............................
Well I am not.

Do not give national coverage to far right advocates. They get enough coverage.

Apparently you have a hard time providing columns about public education.

The public schools have enough problems without having to start telling teachers not to teach that Hitler was a fascist and that the United States in World War II was fighting the fascist governments that accepted far right wing politics.

This column should have never appeared in the educational section of the Washington Post.

You have hit a real low.

Oh and by the way look at my comment regarding your latest column.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 7:48 PM | Report abuse

I am happy that lisamc31 and bsallamack...
Posted by: Jay Mathews | July 19, 2010 6:21 PM
............................
Well I am not.

Do not give national coverage to far right advocates. They get enough coverage.

Apparently you have a hard time providing columns about public education.

The public schools have enough problems without having to start telling teachers not to teach that Hitler was a fascist and that the United States in World War II was fighting the fascist governments that accepted far right wing politics.

This column should have never appeared in the educational section of the Washington Post.

You have hit a real low.

Oh and by the way look at my comment regarding your latest column.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 7:49 PM | Report abuse

"Do not give national coverage to far right advocates. They get enough coverage." ~ballsack

LOL! Wow, how open-minded of you, BSer! So tolerant!

To Jay's credit, he has presented "balance" on the IB issue by allowing my postings to his forum and incorporating my opinion when he wrote Supertest. Now, I don't want to be too complimentary to Jay because it will go to his head and IBO is Jay's education sugar-daddy, but he hasn't attempted to censor me. He's stuck to his misguided and rewarded pro-IB position, but he hasn't silenced mine. For that, he deserves credit, despite his snarky and obnoxious comment about my "paranoia" and being "divorced from reality". He can't help but reflect the politics of his main boss, WAPO, by portraying those who don't march in lockstep (uh oh, another Nazi reference) with left-wing ideology in a negative and demeaning light.

The Progressives have incorrectly and desperately sought to attach the horrors of Hitler's regime with right-wing ideology in the U.S. I highly recommend Jonah Goldberg's book; Liberal Fascism, for a better definition of Hitler's evil political ideology.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 19, 2010 8:52 PM | Report abuse

Jay,
What we have learned is that one person is insulting other people on the blog because they disagree with her. I think this issue is practically a non issue. Many people find things to disagree about when it comes to schools. Implying that the IB is some sort of foreign menace is peculiar.

I don't think this has anything to do with the educational problems that real schools face and this lady is using the Washington Post to spout her fear of foreign ideas.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 19, 2010 9:22 PM | Report abuse

She is attacking a reputable program that may not be for everyone, but she is dangerously ignorant, in my opinion.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 19, 2010 9:23 PM | Report abuse

I read these comments normally because people who comment here have opinions about education and they are interested in what is going on in education. If I wanted to read the birther type garbage, I would go elsewhere.

You can differ with the President on education here and many do, however this person is calling our president Hitler! What the heck is that about!

Her opinion at 5:22 is offensive and she calling the other commenter rude things, like "low-life scum". I strongly disagree with many posts, but do not usually call names.

This sort of person is spouting off foolish ideas and is the Post is complicit in letting her use this space.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 19, 2010 9:47 PM | Report abuse

I read these comments normally because people who comment here have opinions about education and they are interested in what is going on in education. If I wanted to read the birther type garbage, I would go elsewhere.

You can differ with the President on education here and many do, however this person is calling our president Hitler! What the heck is that about!

Her opinion at 5:22 is offensive and she calling the other commenter rude things, like "low-life scum". I strongly disagree with many posts, but do not usually call names.

This sort of person is spouting off foolish ideas and the Post is complicit in letting her use this space.

Posted by: celestun100
............................
Jay Mathews should have never have given national attention to Lisa McLoughlin known as lisamc31.

The article clearly indicated a problem "and because she thinks it promotes what she calls "a socialist/NWO [New World Order] agenda".

We have already seen the far right nationally portray the President as Hitler with a pretense that Hitler and the Nazi party were not fascists were socialists even though there is a tremendous amount of evidence that Hitler targeted and killed socialists.

Comments have indicated the continuous distortion and repetitions of lies that were hallmarks of the Nazi party.

The far right commenter have spoken of "stamping out" IB with total disregard that Americans who pay for their public schools through property taxes should have the right to chose enrichment programs and not denied this by a minority that claim they know "the TRUTH".

The only concern of Lisa McLoughlin known as lisamc31 in regard to public school education is to rewrite history according to the views of the far right and stifle free thought.

Jay Mathews should never allowed the far right to have this national attention. Our public schools should be teaching history and not a place of political brainwashing.

Posted by: bsallamack | July 19, 2010 10:46 PM | Report abuse

My comments are mainly directed towards the anti-IB posters here.
Wow, you people need to calm down and get in touch with reality!!! I'm mad at the high school in the city I had a business in for 6 years (and lived and worked in for many years before that) because the AP, IB, and Honors students pretty much get the best of everything and the kids in the lower track courses are lucky if they get books. Any school district where one the main problems is having an IB program has a luxury problem, even if IB is as bad as you say. Just a few other comments:
- Nobody would suggest getting back to basics in medicine, technology, farming, or transportation, so why would getting back to basics be good for education? In the 19th century we had the best rail system in the world and now ours stinks. Does that mean we should go back to basics and use coal powered steam engines? We need teaching methods to get all the way out of the 19th century and into the 21st century.
- If a so called New World Order ever comes to pass(which I doubt) it will be controlled by the super rich and multi-national corporations. It won't be socialist, unless people here are using a different meaning for that word.
- National Socialism was not socialist in the sense that most Americans understand that word. Germany under the National Socialist Party(Nazis)was capitalist. People owned their own homes, and in general worked in privately owned businesses and corporations, just like they do in the U.S. today.
- You are giving way too much credit to the typical High School teacher and way too little credit to your typical college bound American teenager if you think the teachers are going to indoctrinate these kids into joining some "One-World-Order Socialist Conspiracy".
- We need better ways of testing and tracking the effectiveness of teachers and programs and the progress of students during school and after they go off to college or into the work force. Some of this testing must be independent of any given program and must objectively test and agreed upon set of important knowledge and skills. If IB doesn't measure up it should be canned, if its good it should be propagated around the country.

Posted by: david_r_fry | July 20, 2010 1:08 AM | Report abuse

david_r_fry,

Interesting post and one which clearly demonstrates how Progressives are relying on 20th Century definitions of socialism and fascism in order to deny what is happening in front of your very eyes. We are witnessing the destruction of the U.S. economy by the uber-rich NWO (Soros, Buffett, Gates, Kissinger, Rockefeller) in order to collapse the dollar and force us into a global currency controlled by the IMF and World Bank. Obama is a puppet of the NWO who was handed the Presidency of the United States by the duped American people on his empty Hope and Change slogans. Obama and his minions are shredding our rights daily using socialist policies which will enslave our children and grandchildren to an unsustainable debt.

IB is NOT 21st Century education. Its main theme (internationalmindedness) is derived from a 1948 paper written for UNESCO by Marie Therese Maurette. IB is extremely limiting for students interested in engineering or advanced sciences. In the U.S., IB is being used for "social justice", often placed in the most ghetto school in a district which they hope to lure wealthier white students to from the suburbs. Busing in the wealthier whites for IB results in higher overall scores for the now IB school. The 2009 Recovery Act contains over $5 BILLION for Title I schools that implement "innovative programs". School administrators view these Federal funds as "free" money without a care to who has to pick up the tab once the "free" money runs out.

I, for one, am not impressed by IBO's elitist rhetoric and fearmongering. It is beyond ridiculous to accuse those of us who oppose IB that we are "afraid" of our children learning about other countries and governments. Did you know in the IB Saudi Islamic Academy in VA, they have a map which doesn't include Israel, along with textbooks which show the proper spot to amputate a thief's hands and feet?

IB is 20th Century, UN education. It has only evolved in the sense that it has incorporated more and more Muslim "academies" through the uber-rich Aga Khan in the Mid East and foolish Progressives in the U.S. who think they are so much more worldly than those of us who KNOW what to really fear - the loss of our American liberties.

SAY NO TO IBO!

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 7:56 AM | Report abuse

Oh goodie. More IB student hate-email. I am going to re-post one I just got this morning because it is so typical of the lack of originality of IB students, they all say the same thing (kinda like they've been BRAINWASHED). I particularly "like" the line with its melancholy nostalgia refers to The League of Nations and Woodrow Wilson, (the most racist and evil President in U.S. history). This is what IB produces. Critical thinker? I think not. And for the record, I am not opposed to community service. Both of my children performed community service in school BEFORE IB. I am opposed to MANDATORY community service.


"I don't remember the last time I was as angry as when I was going through this website. Your accusations are incorrect and ignorant. I suppose you "Concerned citizens" are a bunch of xenophobic helicopter parents. IB has been the best experience of my life. I will not accept this horrible website. You're a bunch of stupid, ill-informed idiots. IB is not a socialist agenda, comrades. As a student in America, I'm astounded by your ignorance. IB is not a UN plot! Do you know that the first version of the UN, the League of Nations was thought of by President Wilson? America didn't join, so the UN was formed so we could. I learned that in my History of the Americas class, thank you. I refuse to be called brainwashed. I have my own mind, my own thoughts. I am not an IB puppet. My opinion is that you need to get a life, and stop criticizing an internationally presigious education to this extent. CAS has a basis of community service.!
From what I understand you're against that? You're crazy. HOTA teaches us about places we wouldn't have learned about in just US history, but teaches about the US as well. They teach us about Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, Brazil, and Canada. But to you these countries don't matter. Get your heads out of the sand, there are other countries out there! There are other kinds of people out there! The United States isn't the only place in the world with power. Every where else isn't some third world country. Read a newspaper. Learn something. Oh wait, you're too busy maintaining this website "concerned citizens". TOK is a brilliant class. You are so scared of what is different than your white Christian selves. I bet you think every Muslim is a terrorist too. TOK teaches you about knowledge and ways of thinking. It is not there to brainwash your children. So what if other people have different beliefs, and your child has to listen to it? Secular humanity is bad? Please read the first amme!
ndment. I'm fairly certain freedom of religion is in there (something
else I learned in HOTA). Your agenda is ridiculous. You claim to be patriots, but it's people like you that make me think that maybe the US isn't as great as I thought. I dearly hope your children take every religion, philosophy, russian history, and political science class in college. Maybe then they won't have to suffer the same ignorant fate you have." - anonymous

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 8:24 AM | Report abuse

I refuse to comment here anymore because in doing so I am "rewarding" the Post for having this garbage here.

By the way Lisa, nothing was wrong with that student's letter, except it was written in anger and he or she didn't capitalize Russian.

To anonymous, good for you!!

Posted by: celestun100 | July 20, 2010 8:35 AM | Report abuse

Many school districts have mandatory community service-that has nothing to do with IB. Your facts are all mixed up.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 20, 2010 9:15 AM | Report abuse

Awwwww, don't go away mad celestun100. Gosh, you IBelievers are soooooooo sensitive. And defensive. And angry. And ignorant. The power of IB groupthink is impressive.

Where's your sense of inquiry? Where is your tolerance for the opinions of others who "even with their differences, can be right? I guess you only tolerate the opinions of terrorists, dictators and those who think IB is the best thing since sliced bread, huh? You claim all of this worldly knowledge yet refuse to question what you are being spoon-fed by the UN?

This is the hypocrisy of IB. And for this, you want to pay higher property taxes? Seems pretty dumb to me.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 9:23 AM | Report abuse

p.s.

Clearly the IB student who wrote that lovely rant doesn't have a clue what the phrase "secular humanity" means or an understanding of our Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 9:46 AM | Report abuse

IB = UNsustainable

http://www.the-daily-record.com/news/article/4861753

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 10:03 AM | Report abuse

Please note the $210,000 a year for just the IBDP in the above article which confirms MY cost estimate of IB, not Jay's low-ball $56,000. It is unconscionable that a leading educational reporter would use his column to deliberately try and mislead American consumers as to the cost of IB with a figure that is 75% UNDER the current cost.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 10:09 AM | Report abuse

I'm amazed that there's so much outrage about the IB system.

I can understand the funding issue; this is real reason for debate. However, how is it that so many people are opposed to the idea of an international cirriculum?

This is not an indocrinization of some anti-american agenda, this is meant to prep our children to compete in the modern workplace!

Furthermore, it's supplemental to the education they receive regarding American history and government, it does not completely overhaul any understanding they may have of this nation!

What is so wrong with teaching youths on an international scale? Our own education system is severely lacking. What's more, core parts of our nation face a crisis wherein the current models are not working. If we fail to move forward with new ideas on how to fix our problems, we will quickly fail as a nation! An IB (or any supplemental source of education) will provide the next generations with a greater perspective on how to tackle current issues!

I'm baffled that people see this as a problem. Also, I will stop short of making accusations, but I would like to point out that a core tenet to fascism is blocking outside ideas, influences, and doctrines from reaching its citizens, so as to preserve a national identity.

Posted by: mmrick | July 20, 2010 10:36 AM | Report abuse

mmrick,

you said:

"Furthermore, it's supplemental to the education they receive regarding American history and government, it does not completely overhaul any understanding they may have of this nation!"

This is where you are incorrect. IB does not "supplement", it supplants. In most U.S. HSs, U.S. History is required for 11th grade. IB's History of the Americas barely touches on the American Revolution and our founding documents. If an IB school doesn't offer IB Economics and students only take HoA, they also miss out on detailed instruction in U.S. Government and Economic so that they can study Lenin and Mao "in depth".

A key tenet of fascism is also to censor criticism. You can see how IB supporters decry WAPO giving me bandwidth. In IBO's case, its fascist tactics seek to destroy national identities and enforce an international, ONE WORLD identity of global citizens. It's just fascism on a larger scale, global fascism. Try thinking outside the box. ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 10:58 AM | Report abuse

Lisa,

IB cirriculum does not erase any notion of our national history. Furthermore, American students largely get this information by way of daily life.

An IB 11th grader may not have an in depth knowledge of the Supreme Court cases, but will still be at an advantage when it comes to understanding social institutions on a broad scale: their makeup, their structures, and the reasons behind their creation.

I did not attend a school with an IB option, and I feel the disadvantages I face as a result - my lack of knowledge of our world and society have severely crippled my chance of success. The students with an IB education have many more opportunities and abilities, but unfortunately it takes a high level of education to understand the difference.

As to the indication the UNESCO promotes fascism on a large scale, I fail to see your point. Fascism operates by way of sheltering, not striving to connect different ways of life along a similar level of understanding.

IB supporters and IB facilitators are not censoring debate surrounding its existence - sure, I'm sure that there are some people who don't want to hear your viewpoints, but that doesn't mean they're denying the existence of negative views to the IB system.

You and yours are the ones fighting to erase IB from the playing field. IB and theirs are trying to be.

Posted by: mmrick | July 20, 2010 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Lisa,

IB cirriculum does not erase any notion of our national history. Furthermore, American students largely get this information by way of daily life.

An IB 11th grader may not have an in depth knowledge of the Supreme Court cases, but will still be at an advantage when it comes to understanding social institutions on a broad scale: their makeup, their structures, and the reasons behind their creation.

I did not attend a school with an IB option, and I feel the disadvantages I face as a result - my lack of knowledge of our world and society have severely crippled my chance of success. The students with an IB education have many more opportunities and abilities, but unfortunately it takes a broad perspective to understand the difference.

As to the indication the UNESCO promotes fascism on a large scale, I fail to see your point. Fascism operates by way of sheltering, not striving to connect different ways of life along a similar level of understanding.

IB supporters and IB facilitators are not censoring debate surrounding its existence - sure, there may be some people who don't want to hear your opinions, but that doesn't mean they're denying the existence of negative views to the IB system.

Posted by: mmrick | July 20, 2010 11:20 AM | Report abuse

lisamc31,
Just a little advise here. I'm probably the kind of person you're going to have to convince if you want school districts to "Say No To IBO". I'm just a retired computer programmer and failed internet cafe owner who got to see first hand what happens to kids from poor families in a urban school district like the one I had my cafe in. I just want these kids to have a chance. They didn't put themselves in the horrible situation they're in and they don't deserve to have life in general kick them around, then go to a public school and get kicked around again. I just want them to get as good an education as possible.

Now let me make an analogy. Let's say I developed a horrible rash that over-the-counter cream wouldn't cure, so I ask around to find out who's a good dermatologist and they tell me, go to Dr. lisamc31, she's really up on all the latest. So I go to Dr. lisamc31's office and she walks out to the waiting room wearing a Bozo The Clown outfit and is jumping around and drooling. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm leaving right then and there. My time is valuable and I'm not going to risk wasting my time with her when there's a normal Dr. who probably has a treatment that's nearly as good as the realistic best that I'm likely to get from her. Sorry to say it but you're wearing an intellectual Bozo The Clown outfit, and if you want people like me to even give you a hearing you're going to have to drop all that Wing-Nut rubbish about the NWO order and Obama being a socialist. Personally it sounds to me like you are in general a caring and intelligent person, but you've let yourself be brainwashed by these psycho wing-nuts. Do yourself a favor and divorce yourself from them completely and just focus you're energy on "exposing" the IBO. If you do that I think you will thank me later.

Posted by: david_r_fry | July 20, 2010 12:59 PM | Report abuse

Dear David R. Fry,

I'm so sorry you are having clown acid flashbacks and haven't had your eyeglass prescription checked in sometime. Even though I have the "cure", it looks like your kid is going to keep suffering from that nasty rash because of your close-mindedness and prejudicial preconceived notions of what constitutes reality. Now run along and get one of Obama's fake doctors in their white lab coats to help your poor kid.

- Dr. Lisa

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Oh correction, not your kid, you. I do hope its not in an "inconvenient" spot. ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 1:43 PM | Report abuse

Jay, this lady is insulting everyone. Is that journalism?

Posted by: celestun100 | July 20, 2010 2:59 PM | Report abuse

lisamc31 is spot on concerning nwo. It is being pushed by the uber-rich around the world. G20 is plotting to collapse the dollar as the world standard currency. We will have a common standard of currency. Both Dems and Repubs are involved in this conspiracy, which has masterfully pitted lefts against rights to throw everyone off and keep us all so busy arguing with each other, all the while the owners of the Federal Reserve and World Bank are moving closer to their goals, with a dumbed down citizenry clueless. This country has had a puppet President since JFK. JFK was the last U.S. President. The ones since have been handpicked by the Federal Reserve and the rich global powers. The U.S. is bankrupt, it is owned by others.

There seems to be some confusion about socialism. Nazi party was Socialist and Nazi Germany did control and own almost all production within it's Occupied territories. Socialism has to do with government control and ownership of means of production. The Nazi party ran on a platform putting German workers (aryan) back in control. It employed Social Darwinism to further racist goals of world domination of the Master race, the Aryan. (There is no such thing as an Aryan race - this is a term long used to describe people of Northern Europe who living in cold climates have blond hair, fair skin, and blue eyes. Because those surviving harsh conditions must, according to evolution, be a fulfillment of survival of the fittest, naturally any one with darker skin and hair must be inferior. Notice the respect and adoration U.S. showed Charles Darwin by celebrating his 200th birthday this year. He was a racist and too bad most don't bother to read his Descent of Man just like most Germans didn't read Hitler's Mein Kampf. ) The reason Hitler killed so many socialists and trade unionists is because they spoke out and didn't agree with Nazi policies. Many Nazi party members didn't like Hitler- such as Oskar Schindler and Martin Niemoler.

When the Nazis began to deport undesirables, such as the Jews, to ghettos and camps, it then gave Aryan citizens the keys and told them to move in and make themselves at home. Also, confiscated were businesses. Kristallnacht resulted in the destruction, by the government, of over 10,000 Jewish homes and businesses.

The means of destroying individual rights, making them subservient to the supremancy of the government, makes little difference whether it is carried out by far left or far right. These are just man-made labels we throw around. Who came up with these labels? They referred to where French policy makers sat in assembly - very one dimensional. There are plenty of evil governments along the full spectrum. How would you define the Hutus and the Tutsis? Or the Taliban? or the Islamic radical terrorists? Are they far left or far right, and what a ridiculous way to have to categorize people. Why can't we just say some like to tramp over the rights of others?

Posted by: concerned36 | July 20, 2010 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Well said, concerned36. Our fight is one of Liberty vs. Tyranny (by whatever label you want to put on it).

I stand with Liberty. Glad to have you by my side. ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 3:16 PM | Report abuse

I wonder how many IBers know that Persia changed its name to Iran (Farci for Aryan) to appease the Nazis?

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 3:18 PM | Report abuse

You are claiming that nationalism leads to liberty.

You are comparing our democratically elected president to Hitler.

I think you have mixed up ideas and not just about this IB curriculum.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 20, 2010 3:58 PM | Report abuse

Lisa, I do not understand how you think an international-focused cirriculum leads to tyranny. Tyranny is possible when the populace is uneducated and ignorant of issues, especially issues on a global scale. In short, these people most prone to tyrants lack perception and an understanding of the world... and often tyrants, once in power, work hard to supress outside ideas...

This isn't some concpiracy to build an army of America 'haters'. This is an effort to bring understanding to the younger generations! This is not a bad thing; without a sound educational system and well-educated populace, we are doomed to lose our place as a global power. We are already miles behind in the education realm. Stifling any organization that strives to enhance education is only compounding the problem.

Furthermore, a lot of students opt into international universities after high school, or study abroad. Are you opposed to these actions as well?

And how about private elementary and high schools that already teach an international-based cirriculum, without the introduction of IB or similar system. Do you think these schools should be shut down?

Posted by: mmrick | July 20, 2010 4:47 PM | Report abuse

mmrick,

I have said repeatedly that my objections to IB in the United States lie with its infiltration of our public schools, its grab for Federal grants to be used for "social justice", its lack of transparency, outrageous cost and affiliation with the UN. Private schools can buy IB to their heart's content. If IB is so wonderful, why is only 10% of its U.S. market private schools?

You said:

"Tyranny is possible when the populace is uneducated and ignorant of issues, especially issues on a global scale."

I agree. And the majority of educators and parents in this country are ignorant of the plans of the NWO. Organizations like IBO play on this ignorance with its promises of worldly enlightenment. By marginalizing American exceptionalism and placing the focus on internationalism, IBO accomplishes a weakening of national pride.

The IB tyrants work hard to suppress my ideas. I have been mocked by the former Director General of IBO in a 2005 IBNA plenary speech. In that speech, George Walker told his minions to "stand up and be counted" against people like me.

You want to know how many IB students from my HS have attended universities in other countries in the past 5 years? One. The APID option would have served that one student equally well at a savings of well over a million dollars.

I am not the tyrant. I am the defender of liberty, free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and freedom from oppressive taxation. And I will never apologize for defending our Constitution.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 5:16 PM | Report abuse

I am by no means an expert on IB, but I'll try to explain why I believe there are such disparate opinions regarding IB. I think how you feel about IB depends upon your world view. I believe that the idea of IB has merit. It has merit if and only if you believe that it is possible for all nations around the world to get along, work together toward common goals, all work together for world peace. Obviously, these are noble goals. But some of us have a world view whereby we believe some nations have policies, traditions, and goals that are fully incompatible with those of fair-minded nations such as the U.S. Some nations are evil and carry out major human rights violations on a daily basis and have no intentions of discontinuing this practice. Do these nations offer IB programme in their schools? So if you think all nations think like Americans, sure we can all work for world peace and common ground. But some of us believe there is no common ground with some nations, for instance those under Sharia law such as Iran who want to destroy the Great Satan and the Little Satan and who will unceasingly continue to do so no matter what. The problem some of us see with IB is that this programme basically teaches moral relativism which we strongly disagree with. We believe right is right even if no one does right and wrong is wrong even if every single person does wrong. Some of us believe in moral absolutes. For this reason, there will be no common ground among all citizens and thus no common ground among all nations. But that does not mean that a powerful entity cannot and will not obtain means to bring the world under a global government through force.

Posted by: concerned36 | July 20, 2010 5:25 PM | Report abuse

Lisa,

I am not calling you a tyrant. I was under the impression that you were suggesting tyranny was somehow connected to IB 'indocrinization'.

I am sorry to single you out in this, because I understand that you are not wholly against the idea of an international cirriculum. However, I have recently read several articles, and several of the above comments, that argue that any sort of international cirriculum is 'poison' to our youth. In particular, they suggest that IB is some sort of campaign to undermine America, which I find baffling. Therefore, I've been directing my confusion toward the wrong source, it seems.

Posted by: mmrick | July 20, 2010 5:29 PM | Report abuse

@concerned36
I agree with you that not all governments or nations at any given time want world peace. That is no excuse for not learning about how others think and about world history. There is nothing about being able to understand others' perspectives that is necessarily naive.

Posted by: celestun100 | July 20, 2010 6:29 PM | Report abuse

mmrick,

Perhaps I have not been clear, if I haven't, I apologize.

I certainly don't oppose children learning foreign languages, reading a variety of literature by authors from other countries, or learning about foreign cultures and governments. I don't believe that we need an outrageously expensive, UN affiliated program in order to accomplish these ends in our public schools. So when you talk about an "international curriculum", IBO seems to have the claim of being the chief Kahuna in terms of "owning" an "international curriculum". So I would say that I am opposed to an "international curriculum", just as I am opposed to a National curriculum. Public education is not mentioned anywhere in our Constitution. As such, the responsibility of setting "standards" has fallen to each of the individual States. The Federal Department of Education was established by Jimmy Carter in 1979, and I'm all in favor of abolishing it. We don't need it, it's an over-reach of the Federal government and a tremendous waste of taxpayer funds.

To reiterate, private schools should be allowed to teach whatever they want. If there are people who want to pay tuition to have their kids receive an "international" education, God bless, pay away. But I do NOT want my taxdollars going to support an educational program with an agenda, be it political or religious, in our American public schools.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 20, 2010 8:49 PM | Report abuse

What started as a seemingly up front debate deteriorated quickly into name calling and political ideology. Too bad. I think that lisa showed her true colors and for many of us that was her crazy, paranoid, parroted Beckisms which reared their ugly head once she realized that debate is never one sided.

I work at an institution that values both IB and AP accomplishment. We certainly value the writing experience that IB students (especially IB diploma completers) bring with them. At our institution, we value students who have a sense of their place in the world, who can see not just their immediate locale but how their actions can affect the larger world around them. And if they don't come with that already, we encourage them to seek it out because we do not live in an isolationist society. These are important values.

I feel both AP and IB have strengths and a place in our educational world. I do hold some initial mistrust of anything College Board spits out (see: SAT) but that aside, a student that can get some advanced learning in some of the high schools we deal with, more power to them. Our institution and now university system provide a great deal of college credit for IB, so to say that IB isn't of value due to lack of college credit vs AP is becoming less true. I have also seen internal numbers that suggest IB students(and more so IB diploma)graduate at a much higher rate than typical college students. I don't have numbers that address AP due to the fact that a student could have any number of AP courses so drawing a strict comparison isn't easy. I feel the rigor of the IB experience overall lends itself to the preparation one needs to be successful in college especially at a research university such as mine.

Posted by: vawterb | July 21, 2010 10:48 AM | Report abuse

vawterb,

Why is it IB supporters always point to:

"I have also seen internal numbers that suggest IB students(and more so IB diploma)graduate at a much higher rate than typical college students"

... yet none of these "observations", in 40 years, have ever been tallied and made public?

It all "sounds" very impressive, but IB doesn't have the data to back up its claims the way AP does. (and AP never makes the claim that its students graduate at a MUCH higher rate than "typical" college students)

I mean seriously, what kind of claim is that? What constitutes a "typical" college student in your university system? You claim you don't have the AP numbers so you can't make a fair comparison? That seems odd. Compare AP Scholars with IBDPers. Aren't there "typical" college students that earned a B- average without either AP or IB attending one of the lower tier schools in your system?

A little more hard stats and data and less unsupported claims and bravado, please.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 21, 2010 11:11 AM | Report abuse

"... yet none of these "observations", in 40 years, have ever been tallied and made public?"~lisamc31

Actually, they have been made public. There were studies and even doctoral dissertations written on the subject. Not that you would care to look for and study these findings in your so-called "research" of the program. They do not fit your agenda, so why bother?

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 21, 2010 2:32 PM | Report abuse

So link them, OW. You haven't done so in 3 years, why not turn over a new leaf and try being honest?

(oh, but that wouldn't fit in with YOUR agenda)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 21, 2010 2:55 PM | Report abuse

I am not doing your work for you, lisamc31. This information is freely available to anyone who is serious about researching the program. Go find it if you want to show that you have any credibility as an "expert" on IB.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 21, 2010 3:09 PM | Report abuse

How many years do you think you can play your stupid disingenuous game, OW? If these studies of IB superior graduation performance existed, you or Jay would have plastered them all over the internet. Playing your "I know and you're too lame to find it" game is soooooo over.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 21, 2010 5:18 PM | Report abuse

Don't try to trick me into providing the material for you, lisamc31, like you did with so many other people. It will not work. The material exists right under your nose but you are either unable or unwilling to do any real research to find and study it.

I have no time or interest in "plastering" all over the internet something that anyone who is truly interested in the matter can readily find. I did my own research and have long since moved on.

Thanks for proving once again your lack of credibility on the subject. How many years did you say you "researched" IB?

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 21, 2010 5:31 PM | Report abuse

How many years do you think you can play your stupid disingenuous game, OW? If these studies of IB superior graduation performance existed, you or Jay would have plastered them all over the internet. Playing your "I know and you're too lame to find it" game is soooooo over.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 21, 2010 6:22 PM | Report abuse

The only one playing games here is you, lisamc31. Now go off and do some real research for a change.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 21, 2010 7:17 PM | Report abuse

Put up or shut up, OW.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 21, 2010 9:20 PM | Report abuse

So... how is that research going, lisamc31? Kind of hard without practice, I bet, but you'll get used to it if you try.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 21, 2010 9:27 PM | Report abuse

What is it about put up or shut up you are incapable of understanding, Professor?

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 21, 2010 9:47 PM | Report abuse

I understand it perfectly. I agree it is well past time for you to, using your own words, "shut up" and admit you have no idea what you are talking about. I knew you would not look up any studies - why would you? So much easier to create conspiracy theories all day long.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 21, 2010 9:59 PM | Report abuse

I have a well worn copy of Grimm's Fairytales, OW. Why on earth would I waste my time searching for yours?

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 22, 2010 12:02 AM | Report abuse

Lisa,

Out of curiosity - you mention that you are opposed to a 'National Cirriculum', but you are a supporter of AP (especially when held against IB).

We've all heard the differences between AP and IB (focus, acknowledgement among universities, funding, testing, etc...), but these differences are largely superficial.

Given that you are opposed to any sort of beaurocratic-led education initiative, why do you single out IB?

Posted by: mmrick | July 22, 2010 10:13 AM | Report abuse

MMrick,

Fair question. I single out IB because IB is not transparent (proprietary), because you have to purchase the entire "programme" and because its exams are mandatory. This is diametrically opposed to AP where a school can choose to offer one or 28 AP courses, where the AP syllabi are available online for free, and where the end of the course exam is not only optional, but can be taken by a student who has not taken the course.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 22, 2010 11:08 AM | Report abuse

To Jay and Oscar,

I realize there are issues and issues with each of the programs and their rigor, etc. But AP has at least tries to coordinate their standards with colleges and IB doesn't. If they did, there would be more public college educators on their board. We would both agree, however, that the courses are only as good as the teacher.

But one thing that educators in Fairfax county are very misleading on is their insistence that the courses are identical and you can just go ahead and take the AP exam after taking the IB course. Wrong. The students who express an such an interest will receive a "supplement" of additional topics to study for the exam.

Another thing they don't tell you is that if you are in an IB school and are a whiz at math, you are basically held back. Whiz-kid math students at AP schools can take Calculus BC as a junior and then take Multivariable Calculus and Matrix Algebra as seniors. Both MC and MA are legitimate college courses (are they included in the Challenge Index?).

For IB students, in almost every case, Math HL is the furthest they can go. Math HL does have some after-calculus topics in there, but not much. I was told by an IB student that those IB students who were on the "super fast track" before getting into the IB program usually take a year off (usually sophomore year) from math and take statistics.

I wouldn't have a problem with that if the administrators would just be upfront about it. Unfortunately, if they were upfront about it, all the parents would flip.

Posted by: MG14 | July 22, 2010 1:08 PM | Report abuse

MG14,

We had one of those super-Math whiz kids in our HS when IB was introduced. Our school only offered IB SL Math to begin with and he wanted to take it in 10th Grade. IBO said it "couldn't guarantee that he would be eligible for the Diploma" because the IBDP courses are restricted to 11th and 12th Grades, unlike AP which can be offered 9-12. The boy ended up doing AP Maths as independent study and was our only AP Scholar that year. One other thing, that same student went to Duke and felt like a complete fool in his Econ class at Duke because he knew NOTHING about economics as he had take IB History of the Americas which replaced 12th Grade Econ and U.S. Government in our school.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 22, 2010 1:21 PM | Report abuse

MG14,

Clearly, it all depends on what courses are available. My school district does not offer separate courses on vector calculus and linear algebra, although some of this material is included in the second year of HL Math. This is the highest-level math course available, so the best math and science students usually end up taking it. (The first year is cross-listed with AP Calc BC.) I should that that prior to adopting IB the high school offered no math beyond calculus.

Most students, however, either take no college-level calculus at all or take it in 12th grade. In fact, this is the only option for a student who is on the "regular" track in the district's math curriculum. So, while I agree with you that administrators and teachers must be upfront about the district's offerings, the reality is, sadly, that only a very small percentage of students, at least out here, ends up taking advantage of the most advanced math courses.

Posted by: OscarWilde | July 22, 2010 1:59 PM | Report abuse

Yeah. That's so sad. It's even more sad that public school districts are wasting millions of dollars on a program that results in a tiny percentage of students < 10% of a graduating class earning the IB Diploma while dumbing down the rest of the school.

Did you know a kid can earn an IB Diploma with 24-28 points and still technically FAIL half of their exams?

Did you know you can "buy" yourself an IB Diploma with $200 in an "appeal" process if you fell just shy with a 22 or 23? Yep, IBO will magically adjust a couple of exams and presto! You earned the IB Diploma!

In fact, in 2008 in my district, with an abysmal 50% pass rate, our district bought 4 appeals so that the final result was 14 out of 20 students earning the IB Diploma.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 22, 2010 5:00 PM | Report abuse

Wow, this topic has dug up more angst than it warrants. As an educator that has taught at various levels, and with a child in the educational "system", I find reading through Jay's pieces entertaining. I rarely agree much, but do get a sense of the depth of commitment he has for topics in education. One of the things that I admire in his work, is the open mind he portrays while pushing for his own preferences (hence rarely agree much, but read nonetheless).

Ms. McLoughlin poses none of those virtues. I found her website and the fallacious arguments she makes repugnant (but interestingly compelling). I do not have a problem that she has an axe to grind - fine / that is what the web is for - nor her specific passion to denigrate IB, but her total lack of an open mind undercuts her argument. It is simply not possible that any topic such as the costs and benefits of IB can be as completely demonized fairly as her website's stated purpose. She is not looking for error, but demanding it!

There are compromises that exist with incorporating an IB curriculum into a school. The expenses lie with the additional training and personnel that are required to facilitate the IB education. Yes, this does incur some additional cost, but it also protects the school from likely budgetary constraints if systems want to keep IB. These costs are IMPORTANT to fundamentally alter how targeted schools work. And the cultural changes to these schools, if they are implemented appropriately, do transform schools into children-first institutions.

This is not a bad or evil thing. It is not anti-American (an unsupportable premise). It is not educationally unsupportable or unresearched. It is a way to educate that does pose some benefits for some students. It is a way to challenge and transform schools, often struggling ones, to commit themselves to doing their educational business better. Some of these IB schools have use the opportunity to shift their educational paradigm from failing to success. The ones that embrace the IB philosophy correctly are better than when they started.

That does not mean that IB is the only way. But then, there is no true "correct" way" in education. Ap classes are great for many students. My child will take AP classes with my blassing. However, IB does challenge schools and students to apply meaning to their education and that is never a bad thing.

Ms. McLoughlin. Passion is a good thing. But your campaign to solely denigrate IB is misguided because you have no eye for the good things that IB does. There are plenty. Good Luck all - Fun Read!

Posted by: RealFind | July 22, 2010 5:57 PM | Report abuse

Why do I have to find positives about IB to warrant your "open-minded" seal of approval? That's ridiculous.

You said:

"There are compromises that exist with incorporating an IB curriculum into a school. The expenses lie with the additional training and personnel that are required to facilitate the IB education. Yes, this does incur some additional cost, but it also protects the school from likely budgetary constraints if systems want to keep IB. These costs are IMPORTANT to fundamentally alter how targeted schools work. And the cultural changes to these schools, if they are implemented appropriately, do transform schools into children-first institutions"

This makes absolutely no sense, fiscally or ideologically. You have no proof that a IBO's socialist cultural changes result in a "children-first" institution. Furthermore, the outrageous cost of out of state 3 day training jaunts for IB teachers have not demonstrated a significant improvement in overall Diploma pass rates or participation. Therefore, the entire IB system is superfluous and unnecessary.

IB is elitist, eliminates choice, promotes a left-wing ideology and raises property taxes. That's a NO, NO, NO and NO in my book.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 22, 2010 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Lisa,

I believe that you are too caught up with the tangible rather than with the essence of IB. Diplomas, costs, facts and figures, are superficial to the core of IB's mission.

As many have argued, IB is designed to challenge students, and transform the nature of schools. It's meant to raise standards that other schools will want to achieve. The success of an IB program is not represented by the number of students that pass, or receive a diploma. Speak with an IB student five years after high school and you will see that IB does succeed in its mission - chances are that this individual will be miles ahead of his peers, in terms of critical thinking, thoughtfulness, and real-world skills. Ths type of success you cannot transform into quanitative "proof".

IB may not have an impressive outreach, it may not be overly recognized or understood by universities, but I don't see that as a reason to demonize it. It's a reason to enhance its transparency, which, as far as I know, is a goal of IBO.

When you examine 'the big picture', it's not essential that IB courses are recognized for credit by universities, and it doesn't truly make an impact if some of the students are receiving their diplomas - what matters is that the students walk away with a deeper understanding of the human condition. And they will no doubt benefit by it.

Posted by: mmrick | July 23, 2010 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Lisa,

I believe that you are too caught up with the tangible rather than with the essence of IB. Diplomas, costs, facts and figures, are superficial to the core of IB's mission.

As many have argued, IB is designed to challenge students, and transform the nature of schools. It's meant to raise standards that other schools will want to achieve. The success of an IB program is not represented by the number of students that pass, or receive a diploma. Speak with an IB student five years after high school and you will see that IB does succeed in its mission - chances are that this individual will be miles ahead of his peers, in terms of critical thinking, thoughtfulness, and real-world skills. Ths type of success you cannot transform into quanitative "proof".

IB may not have an impressive outreach, it may not be overly recognized or understood by universities, but I don't see that as a reason to demonize it. It's a reason to enhance its transparency, which, as far as I know, is a goal of IBO.

When you examine 'the big picture', it's not essential that IB courses are recognized for credit by universities, and it doesn't truly make an impact if some of the students are receiving their diplomas - what matters is that the students walk away with a deeper understanding of the human condition. And they will no doubt benefit by it.

Posted by: mmrick | July 23, 2010 9:36 AM | Report abuse

MMrick,

Facts and figures are superficial to the "core of IB's essence"? DOH! That is my major beef with IB!

You say:

"Speak with an IB student five years after high school and you will see that IB does succeed in its mission."

I'll do you one better. My daughter just spent a year sharing a loft with an IB Diploma student in her major at NYU and 2 other guys. While the kid is pleasant enough, they had to hound him for his utility payments, he was a complete and total slob and thought nothing of his girlfriend walking around naked in front of the other roomies. He didn't need to work PT because he had received a large settlement in a lawsuit. He thought nothing of telling one of his friends that they could crash at their apartment for a month without contributing any rent or utilities. And he's a hardcore leftist. Did he graduate a year early? Yes he did. But not with the summa cum laude honors my daughter will attain.

So much for the "caring" and "thoughtful" essence of IB. ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 23, 2010 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Ms. McLoughlin,

You have an extensive website loaded with all sorts of information. You should know better then most how hard it is to conclusively demonstrate anything ineducation. One of the great problems with educational research is the difficulty in making comparisons between schools, districts, states, and methodologies of teaching, etc... to find "better ways" and answers in teaching students. Making decisions about implementing any changes in a school's outlook and mechanics of instructional are always difficult and largely guesswork.

You are right, I cannot prove that IB develop children-centered schools with data to which I have no access. However, I have been in IB schools and seen the results. They are tangible. I know that if you spent time in an IB school that has truly worked to make IB accessible, even you would have to recognize the worth of an IB diploma. Earning that diploma is a real challenge and something that only the best students can target. They make tangible progress and are "elite" not because of IB, but because of their hard work.

AP classes are no less elitist because they are usually restricted to only a small subset of students. And I bet you would be distraught by the current trends to open AP to lower level students since that would impede your desires for tracking in school. Since colleges are becoming more resistant to accepting AP scores unless they are 4's, even 5's in some cases, suggesting that AP is more universally useful is no longer even true.

You are really good at finding anecdotal examples of the problems with IB - the slacker roommate, math whiz, strident liberals - but such isolated examples have no context. I assume that if "we" found AP examples of indolence, incompetence, and narrow-mindedness, (easy to do in any school) you would have another aggressive diatribe to spew about our lack of understanding.

The problem here for all of us is that you do not really care about the argument/data/perspective/whatever, you have your answer and demand that everyone fall in line with you regardless of whether YOU are right or not. You are not offended by IB because of IT'S agenda or ideology. You are offended by IB because of YOUR ideology.

The original discussion should have been about the relative benefits of IB and AP, not about whether you hate the President (clearly you do), hate taxes (clearly you do), hate the UN (that one is clear too), and of course loath muslims and everyone else who will not agree with you. None of those things have anything to do with IB or educating students. That was a discussion worth having and you are a person to have that discussion with, but you cannot have that discussion without suspending your hatred.

I wish you luck in the future.

Posted by: RealFind | July 23, 2010 2:35 PM | Report abuse

RealFind,

There are so many contradictions in your post, I don't have time to go through all of them. The fact that IB supporters can only rely on hearsay or their own biased perceptions of how IB "improves" a school has nothing to do with the outrageous cost of this controversial, divisive and disruptive program. IB supporters just want the taxpayers to spend, spend, spend on their ideological program and if you dare to disagree with their sense of entitlement, then you are a "hater".

Give me a break. Open a private school and offer IB. Keep your hands off of our hard-earned taxdollars.

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 23, 2010 2:44 PM | Report abuse

I waded through the many comments here and would like to offer one of my own.
Having taught both AP U.S. History and IB History of the Americas over the past 25 years, I would have to disagree with Lisa on many points. For starters, IB is markedly superior to AP on several levels. The former stresses depth versus breadth. In History of the Americas, a 100-year period is covered while AP stretches over a 500-year span. IB History is a two-year course while AP taught in one year. The AP History exam is three hours and five minutes long. The IB Higher Level exam is five hours in length. In the IB exam, students write five essays over four hours. AP allots 70 minutes total for two essays.
And then there is the question of choice.
For the History of the Americas exam (one of three History exams), students choose three essays from 24 possibilities. AP students must write two essays, each with two choices.

I am also one of those unfortunate few who read History of the Americas essays from around the world. If Lisa actually read the 24 questions, she would be shocked to find that more than half deal exclusively with U.S. History. 95% of the 501 essays I marked this year were on U.S. History. And, no, I did not mark down because a student chose a point of view that did not match mine.

And no, there is no conspiracy out there to sap the vitality of American youth and brainwash them. The goal is for students to be critical thinkers and to be able to write coherent and analytical essays.

Sadly, the adoption of the IB program by several hundred U.S. public schools is not a smashing success. The U.S. ranks near the bottom in diploma scores. The reason for this is that not enough money is directed towards education and class sizes continue to skyrocket. I am sorry to report but a teacher who has 33-40 students in one History class cannot fully prepare his or her students to write well, especially as the teacher probably teaches another four classes. So, perhaps what we need to do is devote much more money to education instead of making cutbacks. An article in today's New York Times detailed the gravity of the situation. The U.S. now ranks 12th among 36 developed nations of 25-34-year-olds with college degrees. Not so very long ago, the U.S. ranked first.

American exceptionalism does not serve our students and our country. We fall further behind in most economic and social rankings. Setting higher academic goals for our students is one way to reverse the trend but this won't happen without massive amounts of money. Harkening back to the good old days just doesn't cut it in today's world.

A couple of other points: 1. many universities do give credit for IB scores if they are in the high range. 2. Invectives and fulminations are not very persuasive. They tend to indicate mediocrity of thought. 3. It is ridiculous to rank schools according to the number of IB or AP exams taken instead of the results.

Posted by: clio6 | July 23, 2010 4:55 PM | Report abuse

"If Lisa actually read the 24 questions, she would be shocked to find that more than half deal exclusively with U.S. History."

No, Lisa would not be shocked because the questions deal with MODERN U.S. History, as you yourself said:

"In History of the Americas, a 100-year period is covered while AP stretches over a 500-year span."

Now, I COULD be wrong on this, you know, because I'm such a hater, but I'm pretty darned sure the American Revolution took place more than 100 years ago and our Constitution was adopted in 1787, which again, I could be wrong, Math isn't my best subject, but I'm pretty sure 1787 was more than 100 years ago, thus proving my point that IB does NOT provide American students with either a good foundation in U.S. history or in depth look at anything other than MODERN U.S. history.

Glad you agree that Jay's List is stupid. ;-)

Posted by: lisamc31 | July 23, 2010 5:13 PM | Report abuse

Other points:
4. I'm not sure why Lisa raised the issue of UCAS but they certainly give IB better marks than AP. For example, a student who scores a 7 in IB receives 130 tariff points. An AP 5 receives 120. An IB 6 receives 110 while an AP 90.
5. IB is by no means perfect but it is the best overall curriculum in the world. In order to understand our deficiencies and strengths, it is important to have tangible measurements from across the globe.
6. Unlike what some have posted on this thread, there is no IB-sponsored "truth." Wanting to help prepare young people for a world that is rapidly changing, no matter where they live does not mean an end to national identity. In fact, I hold that the opposite is true.
7. If one were really serious about the differences between AP and IB, he/she should check out the 564-page report at:
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10129&page=R1
In the case of Biology and Physics, IB comes out superior to AP. For Mathematics and Chemistry, the academics concluded that both AP and IB had serious gaps.
8. By preventing at least the option of taking IB courses, we do a great disservice to our students. Such shortsightedness in the richest nation will not preserve the accomplishments of the U.S. but will assist in its decline.

Posted by: clio6 | July 23, 2010 5:39 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, Lisa but you are off base here. The 24 questions on the History of the Americas exam cover the time period from the 1750s to the 1990s. IB recommends that students study a 100-year period. That could well mean they cover the early years of the American Republic in far greater depth than they would in the AP History course. So, instead of trying to impress us with your mathematical skills you might actually research the exams themselves before letting us all know when the Constitution was adopted(you mention 1787 but it wasn't ratified until 1788). If you were worth your salt, you would go to the IBO website and purchase previous exams and their markschemes. Furthermore, you will be pleased to know that quite a few essays were written on the U.S. Revolution. Those same students wrote on the Civil War and the impact of World War Two on the U.S.
In other words, I don't get your beef. You are looking for malfeasance and conspiracy when little exists. You should be thrilled to know that many U.S. public schools actually teach the History of the Americas as though it were a U.S. History course with a little Mexican Revolution thrown in for good measure. But instead of being thrilled, you should be appalled that our educational system is failing. I think that because you want no tax dollars to go towards an in-depth program/curriculum you are actually contributing to the problem.

Posted by: clio6 | July 23, 2010 6:02 PM | Report abuse

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