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Readers Say No to Polls, Illegal Immigrants

Our Readers Who Comment today make two things very clear:
1) They don't trust polls.
2) They are angry about illegal immigration.

A new Washington Post-ABC News national poll finds Sen. John McCain now leading the Republican field and Sen. Barack Obama all but erasing Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's once-overwhelming advantage among Democrats.

And a story about the problems of illegal immigrants who graduate from U.S. high schools but then run into the realities of having no documentation has brought out the now predictable vitriolic responses from the send-them-home crowd.

I tie these two apparently unrelated stories together because one of the most unpleasant comments about immigrants came in response to the polling story. But most of those responding to that story either cheered for their candidate, blasted another candidate or blasted polling in general, which is not surprising after the New Hampshire misfire of last week.

As for the immigration story, most of the RWC want the border closed and all illegals sent home, but there are exceptions.

We'll start with the comment that sent me down this dual track.
buzzm1, in response to the poll story, said, "Hillary and Barack, "La Senora y El Senor Amnistia" and John McCain, "Varón de Amnistía" I will never support any candidate that is supporting amnesty for the many, many, millions of illegal immigrants in our country...
Crowded classrooms, and the need to build new schools, all due to the invasion of illegal immigrants."

FairlingtonBlade responded to buzzm1 a couple of hours later, saying, "I believe that Señor Amnesty would be Ronald Reagan. And you can see how that caused our country to collapse. NOT."

Now other more general comments on the poll story.
cdierd1944 wrote. "Given what happened in New Hampshire and the wide swings in opinion is such a short time, one has to question the validity of these polls."

ita8111 said, "Are you folks at the WP shameless or what? Just days after the New Hampshire primary taught us a valuable lesson about trusting polls or at least trusting the sample population would tell the "truth" - here we go again. Another meaningless poll!"

p_peppermint wrote, "BALONEY this paper will never stop, this is not what is happening out here in Voter Land, Dems every Dem I have spoken to and even I's like myself have hardened their choice and support for Senator Clinton."

truth2 said, "But...but...but...I thought John McCain was so....so...so...OVER! I read it in the WaPo last year. I'm so confused."

rcc_2000 wrote, "McCain will win the GOP, in the end most true GOP voters will realize he is really the only one with a chance to win. My feeling is that McCain beats Obama and narrowly looses to Clinton."

gwshening said, "...Obama can not win the general election because he can not win in the south and boarder states, and in the southwest because the tense race relation between the Blacks and the Latinos. Please, my Democrat friends, don't be fooled again by the liberal media. The media wants a cause. But we want a president."

Indeendent, who wrote, "...Tens of millions of Americans enthusiastically support Bush, the neocons and the war... Are we still confident that Obama has a good chance? Are we confident that there is a big difference between HRC and John McCain? Are we still confident that the democrats will win? I am not."

We'll close the discussion of polling with beth-wade, who said, "Here's an idea: why not stop with the polls already? Just report the results of the primaries and allow the people of this country to make their own decisions..."

Now to a few comments on the story of the Mexican immigrant who graduated from a local high school and was finally able to get legal admission to the United States.

RoboFlop said, "It occurs to me that WE should stop whining about this situation. I guess back in '82, they were really saying, "You must address immigration at the border; not at the local middle school." So, let's do it! CLOSE the borders and DEPORT the illegals (in that order). If we do this aggressively enough, there won't be any illegals around to sponge a free education."

partyanimalken said, "High school is not the end for illegal immigrants -- they can return to the land of their birth or to that of their parent's before they came across our borders illegally and gave birth to the child on this side."

highwaybluesoccer wrote. "Now that we have educated them, send them back to their countries to try and improve their own governments, this is not their country."

But Krazijoe said, "Kudo's to kid for getting his VISA. at least he is paying into the system that helped him out. Then again, he was working for Wendy's and paying taxes, unless he was paid under the table, which I doubt."

And we'll close with maryjo525, who wrote, "What a wonderful young man. We are lucky to have him. It is a joy to read about fellow Americans behaving honorably."

All comments on the Post - ABC News poll are here.

All comments on the immigrant story are here.

By Doug Feaver  |  January 14, 2008; 9:55 AM ET
Categories:  Illegal Immigrants , Journalism , Presidential Politics  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Metro's All-Old Problem
Next: An Appropriate Coverup

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Posted by: pricing girft baskets | May 11, 2008 8:26 PM | Report abuse

I am one of those people who are first don't trust polls and second are angry about illegal immigration. How could we become illegal? We were all born here, and that makes us legal "anchor babies". If someone living in his country illegally then YOU ARE A CRIMINAL. At some point you will be subject to be deported.


______
gianski
New York Immigration Lawyer Marina Shepelsky, located in Brooklyn, assists clients from the New York metro area and across the United States in all immigration and naturalization matters http://www.e-us-visa.com

Posted by: gianski | May 6, 2008 4:38 PM | Report abuse

American citizens are not illegal
european immigrants as the mexicans
claim.
We were all born here.
That makes us legal "anchor babies".

Posted by: Phil | April 28, 2008 11:50 PM | Report abuse

Illegal immigrant, I wonder how much easier my job would be if you didn't send your kids to my school where I have to try and teach them to read, write, and understand the values this country has held up for so long and then hope they pass mandated test so I can keep my job. Oh, yea it would be great. When did we start giving illegal immigrants the same rights we give our legal citizens? And no I am not a immigrant, my family tree can be traced back to throwing rocks at Columbus and saying go away we don't need you.

Posted by: robert | April 10, 2008 3:50 PM | Report abuse

I wonder when politicians will learn to listen to those whom they are supposed to represent and pass laws that will effectively curtail illegal immigration. Some states have already shown that legislation can help stem the tide of illegal immigrants. Case in point the Oklahoma law that denies public assistance to undocumented citizens of that state. What we really need is to amend the 14th amendment to only grant citizenship to those who are born to parents who are already legal citizens of America and not just because your parents happened to get across the border before you dropped out. And I might add usually at the legal taxpayers exspense.

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Posted by: w6vd6un8dr | February 17, 2008 7:03 PM | Report abuse

Jan is a liar. You do not travel around Europe freely, and get work. You apply for Work Permission, as well as a Permit to stay. The Permit to Stay costs $75 for the first year (a tax no illegal pays). The employer must advertise a specific position for six weeks before the HE applies to the government Labor Office to employ an immigrant. You do not get to stay if you do not pay heavy social security taxes and income taxes. The Work Permission must be renewed periodically. Non-Europeans who fail to comply with this scheme are jailed and deported. Ask any European embassy if you disbelieve me, who has worked in Europe.
The Justice Department is complicit in massive lawbreaking by illegal immigrants. It takes social security numbers and orders forms to be filled out specifically to use in enforcing the immigration laws. The laws are not enforced.

Posted by: bong_jamesbong2001 | January 31, 2008 2:40 PM | Report abuse

Do these illegals vote for racist officials in Mexico and other Hispanic-American lands who enact strict laws regarding immigration of both Anglo-Americans and other Central and South Americans into those lands? You know they do. LET'S SEND THESE IMMIGRANT RACISTS BACK TO WHERE THEY BELONG!

Posted by: bong_jamesbong2001 | January 31, 2008 2:29 PM | Report abuse

First of all... who are the real Americans? All of us are immigrants here except Indians.
And whoever shouts about the history... Common who are you kidding?

Posted by: Anonymous | January 30, 2008 12:28 PM | Report abuse


People are confused! It's not illegal immigration, it's invasion! Don't give real immigration a bad name.

They invade our country and we do nothing? They are here illegally, and it should be an enforced crime! No rent, no school, no healthcare, no welfare, period. They'd go home if faced with criminal prosecution.

No more amnesty! And no more 'anchor babies'. If they're born here, let them come back when they turn 18 instead of letting the whole family stay.

People think we can't survive without the illegals certain jobs. There are enough legal hispanics, and there are many people of all races who are unemployed and on welfare.

debredes: why the need to wonder how many trucks or railcars it would take to send the illegals home? most have a car or can share a ride with other illegals, but still, if the government can spend so much on their healthcare, education and welfare, that money could be spent on buses. And I agree: Let's focus on the issues that affect 1 in 6 Americans like HEALTHCARE. Imagine hospital and doctor waiting rooms without all the illegals, and how much cheaper our healthcare would be if we weren't subsidizing their healthcare.

Imagine the difference our kids education could be. I think schools should be required to check legal staus of parents of all children in public schools.

WARNING! don't stare at the hispanics wearing flags of their home country at high school graduation.

Imagine how our economy would benefit if we could stop all the dollars from being sent HOME via western union.

I fail to understand why we haven't secured our border yet. Deploy troops, protect US first. What would happen if 20 million Americans invaded Mexico?

I am not racist. I would not have any reason to not invite someone to my home because of their race. But if I caught someone in my house that snuck in a window, I wouldn't just send them out the front door so they can go crawl in the window again.

.

Posted by: Regulus63 | January 27, 2008 3:01 PM | Report abuse

In your analogy something is missing, its more like this. A family member in your house left the back door open and had a sign saying whoever walks through gets a job. Then you caught me using your bathroom and claim that was the reason I went there in the first place.

I'm not here to use your hospital or have kids to send them to school. I'm here because there are jobs that pay 10:1 compared to where I come from. Through my stay people get sick and have kids, so they are a consequences and need to use services. All I'm saying is close the door and also talk to your family members if you really want me to stop coming here.

When are you people going to realize that it is the US employer who is making all of this possible?

I'm not saying I'm inocent but there is more to the story than just me.

Yes, under those circumstances I should be allowed to talk and explain myself.

Posted by: Illegal immigrant | January 17, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

The way "Illegal Immigrant", aka "Criminal" tries to throw around his weight via his ridiculous comments, saying that now he has a "right" to speak his mind, is the same thing as a person breaking and entering into someone else's house then stating that he's allowed to be there.

Posted by: Krista | January 17, 2008 12:14 PM | Report abuse

"I believe that Señor Amnesty would be Ronald Reagan. And you can see how that caused our country to collapse. NOT."

Funny how the Post feels the need to close every immigration argument with a pro-amnesty/illegal comment.

By the way, O Wise Fairlington Blade: By subsidizing illegal immigration with amnesty, Ronald Reagan inflated the problem and has created the hissyfit we're experiencing today.

Posted by: JP | January 16, 2008 5:32 PM | Report abuse

My point was that I am an illegal immigrant talking about illegal immigration. What is this article about? I think my comments belong here. Its not only a US citizen right to post comments online, at least not yet.

Regarding Rosa Parks: If you were able to be so unjust to your own citizens based on the color of their skin and also their gender what can possibly expected be expected from your treatment towards someone who is from abroad?

Also this is like my 4th post here. If you are just reading my last one you are going to take things out of context and probably get upset. Have the courtesy to read them all if you are going to attack me.

Posted by: Illegal Immigrant | January 16, 2008 1:43 PM | Report abuse

How dare you compare them to you're situation.

Now I REALLY know you don't know anything about our country's history. Oh that's right-you're here illegally, didn't have to study and take the American History test to become a citizen. Just another proof to my point. Kepp racking them up...

Posted by: Ann | January 16, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

I'm sure at some point also an ignorant US citizen told Rosa Parks to sit down at the back of the bus because she had no right to do otherwise, and the same thing was told to women in this country when they weren't allowed to vote.

Posted by: Illegal Immigrant | January 16, 2008 12:40 PM | Report abuse

The fact that you are in this country ILLEGALLY right now, adding to this blog by making comments about issues about which you have no say is a SLAP to everyone here who is a LEGAL CITIZEN.

Posted by: Ann | January 16, 2008 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Ann:
You should know that road & highways are paid through a gasoline tax 42% which we illegals can't elude at the gas pump. Schools are paid through property taxes which we pay when we can afford a house, else we pay rent like everyone else. Like I said before when I had to go to the hospital I didn't see a check box that said "Free medical for Illegal people" instead the hospital billed me $3,000.

You guys are just upset because your government has eroded the value of your dollar, has a private health care system which is designed to make profits by giving less coverage to its member. A broken social security which can't support even its own citizens. And an endless trillion dollar war that was initiated under false pretexts. Not to mention, you guys have no international allies except for England and Israel which you bought, the rest have to be bullied into agreeing with you.

When things go bad and the population starts complaining the government just points out several things to blame and like the sheep you all are simply buy into it. You guys preach and preach of democracy yet voting turn out is worse than in 3rd world countries. People that run outside the two party system are simply ignored. Even if candidates that do run within the two party system like Kucinich and Ron Paul get treated as if they were non existent in the media.

Why don't you instead of spending money on a wall I'm going to try to jump over anyways. Enforce the laws making it illegal to employ me and you won't need a wall. Perhaps, use that money to get decent voting machines instead.

I'm sure the illegal immigration does not help this country as it stands, I'm not going to say it does. But we are not the problem, we are the consequence of what the real problem is "The policies of this government".


Posted by: Illegal immigrant | January 16, 2008 11:10 AM | Report abuse

Simply put:

If you are living in this country illegally then YOU ARE A CRIMINAL. We need to DEPORT ALL OF YOU. You are driving on our roads, living in our houses, going to our hospitals, and paying nothing for it. I resent it and I'm sure there are MILLIONS out there who agree with me. Illegals are NOT welcome in the USA.

Posted by: Ann | January 16, 2008 9:30 AM | Report abuse

Bettybb:
I'm an illegal immigrant who posted earlier and I don't know if you were referring to my comments. I said the same thing you did. Replacing the work force from illegals to US workers would increase costs of production in the agricultural sector. As a result the costs would be passed on to the consumer. I never said we are needed, I said we are part of.

The issue of immigration can get very emotional since the US citizens feel like they are being robbed. They keep bringing up that we don't pay taxes. Yet if they looked into their own IRS laws you would see that if the employer knowingly decides to hire an illegal person, then it is him who is by law required to report and withhold 30% in taxes, not the illegal immigrant. So who is robbing the US citizens?
In order for an illegal immigrant to be responsible for avoiding income taxes he would have to do the following. Trick the employer to hire him pretending he is a US citizen. This is impossible to accomplish if the employer has the person applying for the job fill out form I-9(Employment Eligibility Verification). There is no way to trick an employer to hire us, if he does what he is required by law. If he ignores the law and hires me knowing that I am illegal then it is him stashing the 30% of the income tax into his pocket, not me.

Now, lets assume the employer did not mean to break the law, he was just negligent and didn't require the person seeking the position to fill out the I-9 form. This actually happened to me. I did get the job and I also had to pay taxes. A year passed and then I got a letter notifying me of a discrepancy between my name and the ssn I had provided. It said that unless I corrected the problem I wouldn't be able to claim social security benefits. Since I obviously can't correct this, someone else got the money I paid for over a year.

Why doesn't this ever get brought up? Because US citizens are too busy feeling used and exploited to actually look at the problem. They rather blame someone.

I personally don't have diseases, the one time I had to go to the hospital was because I fell, there was no free medical services like everyone claims we abuse. They billed me for 13 stitches around $5,000 and since I had no insurance I had to pay for it. Because I paid quickly they gave me a discount so it ended being $3,000.

I don't think Spanish should be the official language in this country but I do believe you should learn how to spell in English.

Posted by: Illegal immigrant | January 16, 2008 4:23 AM | Report abuse

I can't resist telling this on-topic joke (grin).

An undocumented worker goes into a bank and pulls a gun on the teller, demanding all the money in her cash drawer. The teller complies but presses a foot-activated silent alarm to alert police. Police arrive quickly and arrest the man before he can get away. But as they're reading the man his rights, the man protests his arrest saying, "No, you don't understand. I wasn't robbing this bank. I was merely making an undocumented withdrawal."

Posted by: Herb Dunsel | January 16, 2008 3:59 AM | Report abuse

My ex was a legal immigrant from the Philippines. She was already in the US when we met. After we married, she became a naturalized US citizen. At that time, we petitioned her 4 siblings. And, at the time, the normal waiting period for petition approval was 3 years. However, approval took 6 years. Why? As an immigration officer told us, petition approval rates are revised downward to take the estimated influx of illegals into account.

When her siblings finally arrived here, 3 of them worked on a farm picking fruits and vegetables while 1 of them worked as a maid at a hotel chain ... jobs that most citizens say would ONLY be done by illegals. In short, illegal aliens took 3 years of income out of the pockets of my ex's sibling who would have otherwise held the jobs THEY held.

Shortly after the farm worker siblings were hired, the farmer decided on a change of policy to simplify his accounting. He decided that, on a certain date, daily cash payments would stop. All workers would receive weekly checks ... meaning that ALL workers had to fill out an I9 form and prove their identity. The day this change took effect, only a handful of his Mexican workers showed up in the fields. So, he went to his remaining coworkers (Filipinos, other Asians or Islanders, Kenyans, people from post-Soviet republics, etc.) and asked them to tell their friends that jobs were available. Within 48 hours, his fields were full of workers again.

It is a myth to believe that illegals are necessary to our agricultural economy. In many cases, illegals are merely taking the jobs legal aliens would take IF THEY COULD ONLY GET TO OUR SHORES IN A TIMELY MANNER. But as long as the estimated influx of illegals holds them back, that can't happen.

When will the preferential treatment of Mexican illegals stop? When will we begin to treat ALL immigrants equally under the eyes of the law without regard to race, color, creed, or national origin? When will we stop telling legal aliens to "go to the back of the immigration bus" to make way for the illegals who are stealing the jobs they would hold?

Posted by: Alec West | January 16, 2008 3:22 AM | Report abuse

To the illegal who said that they are need in the agricultural sector. WRONG.

UC Davis published a report saying there are enough Americans willing to take these jobs, but growers have to pay American rates.

Arizona also did a report on the loss of their illegals and found the same thing, they have enough Americans but the price goes up.

All the anti rule of law crowd's agruments/propoganda has turned out to be wrong:

1. There are Americans to do the work
2. Illegals are taking Americans jobs
3. Illegals are depressing wages
4. Illegals are costing the taxpayer a forture.
5 Illegals are lawless. 30% of our prisioners are illegal.
6. Give amnesty, get more illegals.
7. Illegals are not getting High school diplomas like previous generations - it is taking them FOUR generations where they have to be carried by the taxpayer vs. one for legal immgigrants.
8. Illegals are brining in disease (my son caught TD from an illegal as school).
9. Illegals want Spanish to be the language of the USA.
10. Illegals want to create Aztlan and kick non hispanics out.

Posted by: Bettybb | January 15, 2008 8:11 PM | Report abuse

To the illegal who said that they are need in the agricultural sector. WRONG.

UC Davis published a report saying there are enough Americans willing to take these jobs, but growers have to pay American rates.

Arizona also did a report on the loss of their illegals and found the same thing, they have enough Americans but the price goes up.

All the anti rule of law crowd's agruments/propoganda has turned out to be wrong:

1. There are Americans to do the work
2. Illegals are taking Americans jobs
3. Illegals are depressing wages
4. Illegals are costing the taxpayer a forture.
5 Illegals are lawless. 30% of our prisioners are illegal.
6. Give amnesty, get more illegals.
7. Illegals are not getting High school diplomas like previous generations - it is taking them FOUR generations where they have to be carried by the taxpayer vs. one for legal immgigrants.
8. Illegals are brining in disease (my son caught TD from an illegal as school).
9. Illegals want Spanish to be the language of the USA.
10. Illegals want to create Aztlan and kick non hispanics out.

Posted by: A | January 15, 2008 8:11 PM | Report abuse

To the illegal who said that they are need in the agricultural sector. WRONG.

UC Davis published a report saying there are enough Americans willing to take these jobs, but growers have to pay American rates.

Arizona also did a report on the loss of their illegals and found the same thing, they have enough Americans but the price goes up.

All the anti rule of law crowd's agruments/propoganda has turned out to be wrong:

1. There are Americans to do the work
2. Illegals are taking Americans jobs
3. Illegals are depressing wages
4. Illegals are costing the taxpayer a forture.
5 Illegals are lawless. 30% of our prisioners are illegal.
6. Give amnesty, get more illegals.
7. Illegals are not getting High school diplomas like previous generations - it is taking them FOUR generations where they have to be carried by the taxpayer vs. one for legal immgigrants.
8. Illegals are brining in disease (my son caught TD from an illegal as school).
9. Illegals want Spanish to be the language of the USA.
10. Illegals want to create Aztlan and kick non hispanics out.

Posted by: Bettybb | January 15, 2008 8:11 PM | Report abuse

It's too bad you're missing the boat and are succumbing to the media hype. Savage, Drudge and Tancredo are trying to KEEP the USA together as one, not divide it. They are against terrorism, illegal immigration and the infiltration of thinkers like you who want to destroy what was created 200+ years ago. What a shame. If you want to live as a sponge in the land of Socialism go to Europe.

Posted by: Ann | January 15, 2008 4:00 PM | Report abuse

A comprehensive immigration bill is a matter of when, not if. A Democrat will be the next President. Why? Because Billy Bobb's America is no more-we are a diverse country in which the GOP stands as the white-anglo-saxon-protestant party. Latinos will not forget how Republicans showed their KKK-like racism in the immigration debate last summer. And payback time comes as in November. The only people that should be deported are Nazis such as Senator Sessions(Alabama), Lou Dobbs, M. Savage, Tancredo and other monsters.

Posted by: Cohen | January 15, 2008 12:50 PM | Report abuse

Dave you naive! I am an American who has traveled allot to Central and South America and Europe and I was able to work in most countries without having to be a citizen of that country. Since I am an American, I get the benefit of flashing my passport and roam around freely with no borders. I have spoken to many locals during my trips and my understanding is that the US embassies would only grant visas to people that can demonstrate that they have allot of money in the bank and properties, just to make sure that they are not going to overstay their visas. Obviously poor people don't meet these basic requirements, and those are the people that are willing to break the law to feed their families. I wish we could welcome them the same way the have welcomed me and my family.

Maybe naïve people like Dave need to get out more and see the problem from the outside. Would it be good for America if Mexico was a superpower? Of course not, America cannot afford to have another superpower in the Americas especially south of the border. The economy needs illegal immigration to patch the holes and red necks take it personal, Just like when they were little kids and they were invited to a party and other kids unexpectedly showed up, they spend more time telling those kids to leave and that they didn't have the right to be there, rather then just live life and have fun.

Americans enjoy to telling people to go back to their country but are thirsty for their cheap labor. Hungry to go and visit other parts of the world. Those who don't respect humans for who they are shall not be fed and given water.

Posted by: Jan | January 15, 2008 10:42 AM | Report abuse

The US is no longer a nation of immigrants. Most people in this country are native born. There are those that want to deny the fact that even early "Native Americans" had their origins elsewhere. Most scientists concur that man did not originate on this continent
Early Native Americans failed to fight off the European invasion of this continent, because of disease, numbers and superior European technology. It wasn't because of lack of trying or wanting open borders.
People from other parts of the world have no legal or moral authority to enter this country. Wishing it, distorting the facts and bleeding hearts doesn't make it so.

Posted by: Brad | January 15, 2008 10:11 AM | Report abuse

I tried to post a similarity between the actions of Israel toward Palestinians and the U.S. towards Mexicans but of course the WP wouldn't allow it. That tells you alot about this so-called newpaper and the people who are allowed to post.

Posted by: esr | January 15, 2008 10:08 AM | Report abuse

Adios Muchachos, whatever see ya!

Posted by: rah1 | January 15, 2008 8:59 AM | Report abuse

Sorry, our standard of living would rise if the illegals are deported. We are spending 22,000 per year net in subisidizing illegals. In California that translates to 10.4 billion per year=.

Posted by: Bettybb | January 15, 2008 5:41 AM | Report abuse

Illegals who graduate from high school have a choice. They are 18 years old, adults, not kids. They can obey the law and return to their home countries and come back to the USA legally, or they can follow their parents down the life of crime.

Think. With international business, embassies, parents of different nationalities and 700 plus US military bases abroard, there are lots of students in this position.

Have you ever heard of our military kids demanding a subsidy from the country they are living in for college, plus citizenshp for themselves and their famlies?

Anyone else whinning?

Nope.

These illegals are parasites. They are out to ripe as much as possilbe from the USA system and could care less if they become American.

Posted by: Bettybb | January 15, 2008 4:40 AM | Report abuse

Amnesty in any form is RACIST.

It provides A HUGE PREFERENCE for Hispanic Americans over all other Americans in the number and timing of having their family and ethnic group in the USA.

The USA Constitution bans this type of discrimination and requires equal protecion under the law for all Ameicans.

Watch out for the polls.

Before Bush's amnesty bill vote, all the media was touting a specific poll for the fact that a majority of Americans were for the bill. The only problem was IT WAS NOT TRUE. The poll actually said only 24% were for it. Interesting .......

Within the past month or so I have started checking polls cited by national newspapers. One newspaper cited a poll for the proposition that a majority of Ameicans are pro amnesty. The poll itself had not one word in it about immigration.

Another article in a national magazine said two polls, without naming them, had found that a majority of Americans were pro amensty. I wrote the journalist to findout the name of the polls...no answer.

Another instance, again with a natioanl paper had an article that cited a poll I could not find, again for the proposition that Amreicans want amnesty. A couple of days latter, another jornalist did a critique of the article and, tongue in check, referred to the "secret" poll. My quess, the poll never existed.

Now the poll in New Hampshire was a dud.

Polls can be maniuplated by the questions asked, the sampling, and who nows what else.

It appears to me that polls are not finding out facts, but are being used for spin purposes. Everyone knows that RAsmussen leans right and Zogbly leans left.

So my solution? Check the poll they mention. And take it all with a gain of salt - it may well be just plain old propoganda.

Posted by: Bettybb | January 15, 2008 4:35 AM | Report abuse

We need to stop offering free, education, healthcare, and social welfare benefits, to illegal immigrants, and the citizenship for children they bear, here in the United States, and we need to start enforcing the existing laws against employers of illegal immigrants.

Send out the No-Match letters, but above all, BUILD THE FENCE, so that deported illegal immigrants can't come right back in to our country.

Posted by: Buzzm1 | January 15, 2008 4:25 AM | Report abuse

IDIOTS EDUCATE YOURSELVES

Ethnography

Indigenous peoples in Mexico


Mexico is ethnically diverse, and the constitution defines the country to be a pluricultural nation.

* Mestizos (those of European and Amerindian ancestry) form the largest group, comprising up to 60%-75% of the total population.[48]

* Amerindians called indigenous peoples (indígenas) are estimated to be between 12% (pure Amerindian)[81] and 30% (predominantly Amerindian).[48] Indigenous peoples are considered the foundation of the Mexican pluricultural nation and therefore enjoy self-determination in certain areas. Indigenous languages are also considered "national languages" and are protected by law.

* Whites make up 9%-15%[48][82] of the population, mostly descendants of the first Spanish settlers, although many have German, French, Italian, Portuguese, Irish, Polish, Romanian, Russian and British ancestry; many are found in major cities[83][84] after the waves of immigration that brought many Europeans at the end of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, along with some Canadians and Euro-Americans from the United States.

Mexico has also received a number of Lebanese, Turkish,[85] Chinese, Japanese[83], Koreans[86] and Filipino immigrants.[87]

Afro-Mexicans, mostly of mixed ancestry, live in the coastal areas of Veracruz, Tabasco and Guerrero.

Posted by: Ruben | January 14, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

FacelessONtheNet This Country was build by many legal Immigrants !! we where NOT a Country before the first settlers look it up there is a big difference between immigrating
and migrating .....All you pro illegal Supporters are lazy leaches we pay the taxes
for YOUR FREE services we need to make it so all people coming to this country have legal identification so they can pay for there use of our Services Stealing someone identity is not minor Crime it can hurt poor family's so don't give us your pitty
crap you lazy freeloaders should go back
to where your Ancestors came from Mexicans
Are no more native then you Are

Posted by: Ramone | January 14, 2008 10:27 PM | Report abuse

So many people say the illegals are peoples that need a chance, but I feel, that if I and my son, that have done without for the past 19 years, I have been denied medical for my very sick son when I could not afford insurance, yet, they get free medical, many, many, many, days we could not afford food to eat, yet the illegals would have 2 & 3 buggys of food at the check out with foodstamps for my hard earnings of the taxes that I paid, not them, money for a business is given freely to them, yet I an American tax paying legal citizen am not eligble. Our wages will never climb to the standard they need to be at just to survive as long as they continue to milk our systems. they need to go back to their home and leave our home to us.

Posted by: Sandy | January 14, 2008 7:52 PM | Report abuse

I have a new understanding of these things. We have been so terribly wrong for too many years regarding a right to be where a human being wants to be...! Do you understand me? Why not if in a dream one night you awoke and wished or believed that your true love would be met with you in a land far away from your own. Or if you awoke sweating and knew that your home was in Chad, Africa, would you want a government to declare you an alien, even dictate how long you are allowed to be there.

I am asking you.!? Is anyone really free? They come here because we advertise "Hey man look at us" We are free..!" But then when they get here, our soul mates are made to feel like they are criminals.
Naturally birds of a feather want to flock together. DONT YOU THINK>? that just maybe those we call illegals simply want what we want? To have an opportunity.. MAN JUST AN OPPORTUNITY to have what we have. You know the bureaucracy involved to get a freaking drivers license in our own localities and then to keep it! Imagine being a what we call "illegal" I know that your government has told you that they compromise security in the Motherland.. Oh wait another leader said that... I mean they say that you illegals compromise our sovereignty..But we are negotiating this ..?Ever heard of the North American Union.
When does it end.? I am free. My god lives in that illegal too! He has a right to be here.

DONT MISS UNDERSTAND ME.. If I find him squatting on my land, he will get the first assfull of rock salt from me.

But, if he/she will bring dignity to his name and ask me for a space, I will gladly grant it. Know my heart, and know that every MAN should be made to feel loved and feel FREE !!

Posted by: Norm Turner | January 14, 2008 6:56 PM | Report abuse

Reads like most of your posters are reality challenged, ultra right-wing freaks on the verge of aneurysms. Too much WP red meat for the anger management group flunkouts?
BTW: What's the difference between the WP and the Washington Times, other than that messiah dude? I mean Moon, not Murdoch.

Posted by: reed | January 14, 2008 6:37 PM | Report abuse

I'm an illegal immigrant and I'm going to tell all of you how to solve this "problem" to how finally getting rid of me.

One, Force every employer to have an I-9(Employment Eligibility Verification) on every employee exposing our real status. I mean, sure we can easily provide a fake ssn (social security number) at the time of hiring, but we can't hack the government databases.
Two, Make the Employer fire all of us that are illegal. Leaving us unemployed would force us to go back to where we came from. You can call it self deportation.
Three, You can make all of this if you simply enforced the laws already in place. According to the IRS "U.S. employers or payers who hire illegal aliens may be subject to various fines, penalties, and sanctions imposed by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. If such employers or payers choose to hire illegal aliens, the payments made to those aliens are subject to the same tax withholding and reporting obligations that apply to other classes of aliens."
Four, The reality of things is that most employers either don't really want to know or don't care about the status of their employees. All they know is that the wages paid are 20%-30% lower than what they should be.
Five, Realize the real problem. Yes, we did physically and inconspicuously cross the border to get here, but the breaking and ignoring of the laws was done in plain sight by you, which allowed me to stay here.
Six, If you are serious and really want to go after me, you need to go after the US employer first, he is the one that makes all of this possible. Whether you fine him or penalize him, is irrelevant. What you must do, is make him find another work force that is legally eligible even if it costs him more. That's ok, all of the extra costs will be passed on to the consumer.

I know my voice is not being heard, but I also know yours as an American citizen is not being heard either. You keep electing representatives that care more about making money than doing what is right. Therefore my presence in this country as it is, is indeed stable. I am here because I bring profits to special interest groups and they'll lobby congress to make sure that stays as such. We both know that they would only grant me amnesty, if somehow that translated to dollars in their pockets. The issue whether if it is fair or not would have nothing to do with it.

Illegal immigrants are a big part of the agricultural sector in this country. It represents 9.2% of the total exported goods. Making it almost a 100billion dollar industry. Whoever says lets deport all immigrants hasn't really stopped to think about the implications. Why would you want to affect an important sector of the economy like that? Did you forget about the weak dollar?

Posted by: Illegal Immigrant | January 14, 2008 5:27 PM | Report abuse

"Old Atlantic, surely there is MORE than one study to support your hypothesis... or is there?"

Its a theorem not a hypothesis.

" More importantly, though this is not true in all cases, scientific papers with a shelf-life of over 10 years are not typically accepted as current"

Theorems are always current. A theorem can't go out of validity.

"unless there are many more studies upon which the findings from the older study support."

This is a theorem not a study.

" Good job at finding one point to prove your thoughts, how about a few more.

Posted by: | January 14, 2008 01:08 PM "

"Results 1 - 100 of about 53,500 for "island model" migration. " From google search.

Search "island model" immigration as well

http://oldatlanticlighthouse.wordpress.com/2007/09/29/island-model-immigration-projection-software/

Has a link to a university web page with projection software based on the Island Model.

The Island Model was published in 1931 and is in standard textbooks on population genetics such as Spiess.

Posted by: Old Atlantic | January 14, 2008 5:01 PM | Report abuse

Illegal immigration discriminates based on origin, Latin Americans benefit at a rate 30 times greater than non-Latin Americans. See here for more info:
http://www.legalimmigrantsfirst.org/aboutamnesty.html

This means everyone who supports illegal immigration is a racist or bigot.

Posted by: Vinh Le | January 14, 2008 4:20 PM | Report abuse

Dave you naive! I am an American who has traveled allot to Central and South America and Europe and I was able to work in most countries without having to be a citizen of that country. Since I am an American, I get the benefit of flashing my passport and roam around freely with no borders. I have spoken to many locals during my trips and my understanding is that the US embassies would only grant visas to people that can demonstrate that they have allot of money in the bank and properties, just to make sure that they are not going to overstay their visas. Obviously poor people don't meet these basic requirements, and those are the people that are willing to break the law to feed their families. I wish we could welcome them the same way the have welcomed me and my family.

Maybe naïve people like Dave need to get out more and see the problem from the outside. Would it be good for America if Mexico was a superpower? Of course not, America cannot afford to have another superpower in the Americas especially south of the border. The economy needs illegal immigration to patch the holes and red necks take it personal, Just like when they were little kids and they were invited to a party and other kids unexpectedly showed up, they spend more time telling those kids to leave and that they didn't have the right to be there, rather then just live life and have fun.

Americans enjoy to telling people to go back to their country but are thirsty for their cheap labor. Hungry to go and visit other parts of the world. Those who don't respect humans for who they are shall not be fed and given water.

Posted by: Jan | January 14, 2008 3:48 PM | Report abuse

"Immigrant", as I understand it, is defined as one who has legally entered a country desiring to stay and become a citizen. Therefore, there can be no "illegal" immigrants, only illegal 'aliens'. Those who enter any country illegally are subject to that country's penalties.

Just try to stay in any European, Central American, or South American country as an illegal alien... Don't be surprised at the police reaction, the jail, the deportation. Those are the consequences of breaking the law...

The United States is supposed to be a sovereign nation, with the right to determine who may be called a citizen, who may or may not enter, and of those, who may stay. The law is not perfect, but it is fairly clear as to who is legally allowed to enter the country. All others are illegal and subject to the penalties of their illegal acts. Consequences are part of those penalties.

Enforce the law, deport illegal aliens when and as they are found. Enforce the law, punish employers that hire illegal aliens. No pogrom or witch hunt, just follow the law.

Some new law may be necessary to confiscate illegally obtained benefits (property, monies, etc) as is currently on the books for drug related offenses, thus making it extremely unprofitable to be here illegally. Yes, families would be hurt, just as in drug related cases. Those are consequences of illegal activity. An old saying: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

Consequences of illegal activity are not supposed to be beneficial. Make it painful and unattractive to break the law, and the illegal activity generally subsides.

Hoping for the 'rule of law' to be something more than an ancient aphorism or standing joke from the past...

Dave

Posted by: Dave | January 14, 2008 3:31 PM | Report abuse

So basically you are saying that we don't trust polls, but trust that this poll says such and such. Does anyone else find this ironic?

Posted by: Ronald | January 14, 2008 3:28 PM | Report abuse

Illegals break the law and should be punished, not rewarded. Americans still run this country, not Mexico.

I live in Dallas and have watched the crime way skyrocket as the illegals pour in. Dallas now has the highest crime in the nation. There is grafiti everywhere downtown. It's dangerous to go to the parks any time of the day. The illegals are in gangs, sell drugs and commit robberies.

Healthcare - why is it going up? Already nearly 1000 hospitals have been closed because they were bombarded by illegal aliens who don't pay for their health care. When they don't pay, healthcare rates to up to compensate for the loss. Did you know the hospital in the show scrubs is one of the hospitals that was run out of business. Here in Dallas, hospitals are barely able to keep their doors open. Illegal aliens flood the emergency room with their pregnant wives. Child birth is very expensive for you and me but free for illegal aliens.

It's time to turn things back around. Citizens should ALWAYS come before illegal aliens. NOT the other way around.

Posted by: Specter | January 14, 2008 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Illegal? Who says? They are undocumented, that's it. Is it a crime to want to come and work for you, bust your butt trying to here, deal with all the harassment by the racists and bigots. Not in my book of terrible crimes.

Wanna make all the Mexicans return to Mexico? Two words: Fix Mexico. I am sure that if there were jobs and less violence, nearly all would return. Do what the EU did for Ireland.

Polls: I believe them. I also believe any black candidate better be polling in the double digits to overcome the Bradley/Wilder(/Obama?) effect, or be prepared to go home the loser. A shame, a terrible shame. But a fact of politics in the US.

Posted by: reh | January 14, 2008 2:51 PM | Report abuse

"This is a country of all immigrants unless one descends from a red Indiian family. Arriving in this country a few or more years earlier than the others doesn't give anyone the right to call the late arrivals illegal immigrants.All those on the land on this country are equal and nobody is an illegal immigrant."

Pure childishness in that this is a complete fabrication of the argument. The statement above is what is known as a "straw man".

The point in time when the individual or individuals arrived on these shores has never been, nor will it ever be, the point of the topic.

It is how these individuals arrived here. I, and the law, care not whether the immigrants are Mexican, Chinese or German. All that matters is that the law is preserved. You cannot allow one law to be broken because it suits your needs then argue when another law is broken.

Is it is okay for people to enter this country without adhering to the laws then there should likewise be no problem with me taking that which belongs to you and you not having a right to complain.

There are no laws which are more or less important than another. All are laws and we are a nation of laws.

It's that plain and simple.

Posted by: Keith | January 14, 2008 2:39 PM | Report abuse

Vitriole and hyperbole show up on both sides. Why do we only hear about the so-called 'send-them-home' crowd? Why are knee-jerk accusations of racism, bigotry, and ignorance in the face of rational debate not labeled as vitriolic nonsense? Is it because those who give us this information are so blinded by their biases that they cannot even spot the irrational, sensationalist, and (dare I say it?) vitriolic rhetoric flying from their own camp?

The hyperbole is my favorite piece of the puzzle. We only hear about the accused racists who show no compassion or moderation; ignored are those of us who want the border closed, controlled, compliant with current US laws, and consistent with both American needs and considerations for stresses on infrastructure. Ignored also are those who apparently assume that only the utter collapse of the United States of America (possibly accompanied by a nuclear meltdown) is cause for concern. In fact, it is not the statements themselves that are ignored (as highlighted by the story as a witty retort--Reagan obviously did not end the nation by granting amnesty to illegal immigrants), but their message is: Don't bother us with your petty problems because we only care about your imminent death.

But all of this now predictable nonsense is, I suppose, to be glorified and not criticized. After all, the debate on illegal immigration is emotional and not logical; to force logic on it just doesn't sit well with certain media personalities.

Posted by: Byronic Hero | January 14, 2008 2:32 PM | Report abuse

Luckily for you "Americans", the "Native Americans" didn't have an immigration law.

Posted by: Jacqueline | January 14, 2008 2:28 PM | Report abuse

This is a country of all immigrants unless one descends from a red Indiian family. Arriving in this country a few or more years earlier than the others doesn't give anyone the right to call the late arrivals illegal immigrants.All those on the land on this country are equal and nobody is an illegal immigrant.

Posted by: SAM | January 14, 2008 2:26 PM | Report abuse

So many people in this country are simply screeming to deport all illegal imigrants but is anyone thinking what this would do to our already struggling economy? If we suddenly deported millions of illegal immigrants how many business would struggle and close because they don't have ENOUGH workers. I recently read an article from WaPo that was about a small town in Texas that had one of its major factors raided and had large percentag of its workers arrested and deported. Many of the local appartments lost most of thier PAYING customers. The deported workers also left behind families, children, with no way to pay for food, let alone a place to sleep. Now imagine this throughout all of Western and South-Western America. Think about it.

Posted by: Alexander | January 14, 2008 2:19 PM | Report abuse

I am an AMERICAN of mexican decent.Raised by a mother who immigrated here legally and a father who was born here but raised in mexico.I believe in LEGAL immigration and feel that those that are here illegally slap those that entered legally in the face. I also feel that nothing will change until mexicos' government changes. No wall will keep out those that want to come here, but the border indeed has to be secured so I guess a wall is a start. IDs' will be needed and severe fines for businesses that lure illegals here should be implemented. No ID = deportation. Felony offence = deportation. Those that have IDs have 5 yrs. of fines to pay before being considered for citizenship. Those that were brought here as minors cannot be punished for the sins of their parents, but the parents can be fined for each child they brought over with them. Total english emersion in schools is the best way for children to learn the language. Parents should also be required to have a basic english vocabulary.They will never succeed without it.All fines and a portion of their (not our) taxes should be channeled towards border security, and all costs associated with their assimilation. The vast majority of illegals are hard working, productive,and important contributors to the American economy. The biggest drain is on our education system. I'm rambling and I apologize for that but these are things I think of all the time and still wait to see if any of our pres. canidates will address in a similar manor.I believe this is the greatest country in the world and thats the reason everyone wants to come here. This is nothing new as this country has been built by immigrants from day one. The flood gates do need to be controlled. God bless and protect America!

Posted by: SPANMAN | January 14, 2008 2:17 PM | Report abuse

The reason people get so upset about illegal immigration is that it challenges their belief that a certain group of people has the "right" to control a certain parcel of land. Of course, we know borders are all man made and have no basis in the natural world, but we choose to ignore that fact because it would shake the entire system--a system that gives power to very few and oppresses most.

Animals can cross borders freely if they want. We choose to give our own species less freedom.

It's 2008. Enough with this territorial stuff. If we really care about making life better for all of humanity, we need to help everyone, regardless of what (artificial) country they're from.

Posted by: Matt | January 14, 2008 2:12 PM | Report abuse

Note to "Historian" regarding comments about President Polk. I have no doubt that Mexican children are taught what you say they are taught ... that Polk "stole" New Mexico, California, and Texas from Mexico. But, here's something they might NOT be taught.

Mexico borrowed $4.5 million dollars from us. In the 1800's, that was a heckuva lot of money. But then one day, Mexico decided not to make repayments anymore ... to stiff the USA on money that was rightfully ours. Did we start a war with them right away? Of course not. We sent a representative there who (A) offered to forgive the loan and (B) offered another $25 million dollars in payment for acquiring the land we wanted. The Mexican government refused to even see our representative ... and continued to stiff us on repaying the loan.

So, who was cheating who? By the way, speaking about stealing land from others, go back in Mexican history a wee bit more and you'll find a group of people called the Olmecs. You won't find them anymore, though. Why? Because the Mexican newcomers trounced them and took their land.

It's almost as if the Mexicans are saying to us, "Hey, what right do you have to steal the land we previously stole from the Olmecs?" Do you detect a teensy bit of hypocrisy in that question? I sure do.

Posted by: Herb Dunsel | January 14, 2008 2:12 PM | Report abuse

Hey, those of us against illegal immigration are not doing it from a Republican or Democratic perspective -- we're doing it from an American taxpayer perspective. All of you illegal sympathizers ought to head on down NOW to the Arlington or Fairfax County, or perhaps even Prince W. County health departments. Take a look at who is standing in line non-stop all day long to receive welfare benefits. Take a camera and take a picture of it. They're all there, illegals, mostly pregnant w/ about 5 kids in tow, claiming rights to benefits that they don't pay for, that Americans pay for, that they will NEVER repay, and that we CANNOT afford. Why are they here? They're NOT working like you think they are. YES, Bush let them in . ..but Hillary's going to let the rest of them in!! It's an American issue -- and Americans need to WAKE THE HELL UP or our country will be gone. California is all but gone to illegals ...who is next? Seriously, take a stroll on down to the Health Dept. in Clarendon and take a look. It's going on right under our noses, everyday. Millions just being given away to support these parasites, just so someone in Arlington can get their cheap lawncare. It's disgusting. And someone thinks McCain is going to do something about it? He's the Amnesty KING!

Posted by: Betsydog | January 14, 2008 2:09 PM | Report abuse

Well said! Polls have become yet another way for the media to control how the public thinks - I say we do away with them! Another method of determining what the public opinion is on issues of contention must be found, the current method is rife with error and as such, today's polls will have little value in the future.

Posted by: Philip Solomon | January 14, 2008 2:08 PM | Report abuse

To answer hamishdad, Jesus was a carpenter and seeing that the carpentry field is saturated with illegal aliens, I could see Jesus embracing Illegal's by hiring them under the books. (Let the flames begin)

But, on a serious note, what's this obsession with Green Cards? A GC is a tool to help the government collect taxes from you. I firmly believe that we should pay our taxes since it helps maintain roads, education, civil services (and corruption). After all, if you benefit from these things, then you should help support them. Therefore, lack of a Green Card can only mean that Illegal Aliens avoid paying taxes. This is not necessarily true. You see, many Illegal Aliens work under with someone else's Social Security. So, in actuality, they ARE paying taxes and helping to support the infrastructure.

On the other side of the coin are those Illegal Aliens that aren't paying any taxes because they work under the table. But, wait a minute aren't there plenty of LEGAL CITIZENS that do the same or worse? Like CITIZENS that lie on their tax forms, or evade taxes altogether, or do tax fraud? Or CITIZENS that leech off Welfare under bogus circumstances? With that said, do Green Cards make you more honorable? No it doesn't. Instead of whinning how Illegal's should "get Green Card or go back to your Country", we should fix the dishonorable LEGALS that are robbing us by not paying taxes. Is it more tolerable to let their children freeload off of us just because they are Legal?

Side note:
I once heard an American Indian tell a white man to "Go back to his country". I then realized that we, who claim to be Americans, were never legally invited to this country either. So are we all illegal aliens too?

Posted by: FacelessONtheNet | January 14, 2008 2:02 PM | Report abuse


everybody enrolled in school, legal or ilegal should apply to work hard; must of the students in this country are lazy and complain way too much.
legal immigration should be encouraged and enforced and also it is very important to issue a national ID that allows for a quick check.
it is the truth that most of the ilegal immigrants are very hard working, therefore allowing them to come and participate in the economy of this country should be done in a legal and organized way protecting the hard working people.

juan alonso

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 2:02 PM | Report abuse

I won't read all the flame posts but I wanted to add an opinion. This is one of the few issues I and the President agree on. You cannot stop illegal immigration without a comprehensive reform to a very, very broken system.

The sad part is that we cannot make headway on dealing with the millions that are already here and the million that will be following them into the nation.

I never understood an immigration policy that didn't simply ID all these people and force them to pay taxes one way or another. Whether or not you want them to have or use services no one in this country who works should be getting paid under the table. This practice has to end with a solid policy about Identifing US workers.

I'd also like it put into place that US corporations cannot go overseas and pay under the US min. wage to its employees or subcontract to foreign companies paying less then US Min. Wage to its employees. No one working for a US company should be paid less then a US citizen. You may find more skilled people willing to work at the US min. wage level but at least we wouldn't be exploiting those workers by not even being descent enough to pay them what our lowest paid workers are given to live on.

As for immigration, let anyone come in that wants to imo. I want them here, identified, paying taxes, working legally and I want criminals deported back to there country of origin. If you want to be a US citizen God bless you. Come in. Welcome to our great nation. You must fill out the paper work. You must pay taxes. You must obey our laws.

The Hannity's of the world have racial undertones to the discussion. We need more of an open door immigration policy and accept these people into our country. Our very limited immigration policy is the root of the issue. It causes the wage problems and the criminal activity. I never understood the no ammensity crowd. Ammensity with an appropriate fine should satisfy the law breaking no reward aspect. Why do they need to be deported? To show power, control and authority? Put these people on a path to citizenship, make them pay a hefty fine and force employers to document everyone.

Deportation is a severe punishment for someone who sneaks into a country to be a citizen. A fine isn't enough? You need to interrupt there new life and family? So they can go back to some Mexican processing station? They have nothing in Mexico or wherever they immigrated from. They moved here. Show some human compassion. Deport all the convicts. Lets work out a solution for the guy cutting our grass and doing our dishes and picking our fruits and veggies.

Posted by: Matt | January 14, 2008 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Washington Post reader are not representative of the whole country just a segment. Poll the people on the east coast and south and see the difference.

Posted by: Hakeem Krishna Smith Stein | January 14, 2008 2:01 PM | Report abuse

To all those who say what to do with the millions here illegally or that we can't send millions back, we don't have to. Design a tamper proof bio-metric ID card, decide how many "guest" workers we need and then provide for massive fines for employers who hire illegals, over a short period of time, the problem will correct itself. If they are here illegally and cannot get jobs and services, they will go home on their own. Next, after designing a "guest" worker program, tax these folks at a minimum flat rate of 30% to be paid 50% to social security and medicare and 50% to the states they work in. Until they become citizens, they are not eligible for tax refunds or SS benifits, if and when the become citizens, they start with a clean slate, no credit for previous amounts paid in. This is a win/win for everyone, we get the workers everyone says we need, they get decent wages, even after the 30% tax it is many time more than they would make at home, and the federal and state governments collect taxes. I believe this is workable and more than fair. Those that demand free rides and open borders have an agenda that does not include the best interests of these people.

Posted by: possum23 | January 14, 2008 1:59 PM | Report abuse

I am married to a beautiful Mexican girl who came here illegally in 1986 when she was 14 years old (I met her in 1991 and were married in 1992). She has never committed a crime other than following the direction of her family to come here and stay with her aunt and uncle through a hole in the border fence. They felt that she was better off here with family that had no children and were very well off financially (her aunt and uncle both worked in the high tech computer industry) than to stay on a Mexican ranch where decent living conditions were not extant.

I went through the several-year process to get her legalized and she became a citizen.

Se works part-time cleaning houses for $30.00-$50.00 an hour two days a week. We have always paid her quarterly taxes. It is amazing how many people are surprised that she does not take her money "under the table".

Some that are here (not just those from Mexico) have demonstrated bad traits such as was mentioned by the individual from Phoenix. However, as my wife demonstrates daily by her outstanding conduct, it would be foolhardy to make a blanket condemnation of all who have come here without proper documentation.

Posted by: Allen | January 14, 2008 1:59 PM | Report abuse

Christ. I suppose I don't typically read newspaper blog comments for good reason. The notion that so-called "illegals" are ruining this country is so incredibly preposterous it's hardly worth posting counter-comments. The inherent bigotry and total lack of understanding about immigration and labor is infuriating.

I did notice in Mr. Feaver's selected comments a common theme (other than the bigotry) -- extremely poor spelling skills. An inability to spell suggests a lack of education (although, of course, some well-education people really just can't spell). But more than that, you just look like an ass if you're an "English is the national language" type but you can't use English to properly express yourself.

I'd also like to know in what way "illegals" drain our resources. People keep saying they exploit education/medicine, but I've never seen any statistics showing this to be true. I used to be a newspaper reporter in a small Texas (read, border state) town and went regularly to the board meetings of the local hospital and school district. I saw NO evidence that either entity's resources were being drained by the local immigrant population. None whatsoever.

So please anti-immigration folks, either show us some real evidence that our country is being ruined or slink back into your compounds with your guns and C Crane radios and wait for the hostile takeover you believe to be imminent.

Posted by: Claire | January 14, 2008 1:56 PM | Report abuse

"this problem doesn't exist in Wisconsin."

NotanIdiot,

It is obvious to me that you do not live in Wisconsin, or maybe you just live up in Ashland. I will tell you this. If you live in any place with any amount of people so that there is the anonymity needed to employ illegals, you will find them. You can even find a few cases in rural farmland of farmers exploiting illegals (no pay, just food and a tent) because of the privacy they enjoy in a very rural area.

As for your "it was theirs" argument-- give me your house, or does your tune change when you are arguing with an Ojibwa?

I really mean it. I, or another native wants your house. Make good on your bs.

Posted by: WI citizen | January 14, 2008 1:55 PM | Report abuse

Illegal immigrants have taken my job opportunities when I was a teenager. They would hire illegals over me because they were willing to work below minimum wage for jobs I was willing to work for minimum wage.

Posted by: ZeNiTH | January 14, 2008 1:55 PM | Report abuse

I find it interesting that everyone saying there is data out there that supports illegal immigration just tells us to search for it. I have looked for it in the past and everything I have seen is not from a credible source or has no real data. Please quote some real figures or link to a website where I can read for myself. kthnx

Posted by: Ryan | January 14, 2008 1:53 PM | Report abuse

ILLEGAL does not mean Mexican's only; how do all of you illegal immigrants feel when you go through all kinds of loops unless you are a CUBAN? You need to ask the USA why a CUBAN gets all kinds of benefits, plus SS and you get nothing? Every country has it's own language and the USA 'was' English; isn't knowing/speaking English part of the test of becoming a citzen of the USA? CLose all Borders including CUBA; go through the correct channels of becoming a citzen; speak English, flag the USA Flag and WANT TO BE AN AMERICAN!!!!! (otherwise stay in your country and try and make it better)

Posted by: hightensil | January 14, 2008 1:51 PM | Report abuse

When the nation wakes up to the reality that polls are a marketing technique to push the election toward or away from a particular candidate, they won't even bother to read them anymore or they will read them as they would read a political ad. Preelection polls are nothing but marketing. They are almost always paid for by a candidate. The details may be hidden through PACs and what is called "soft money" but they are commissioned [ordered as a product] and paid for with taxpayer or private campaign money as part of the marketing or PR campaign to elect a politician. They have no value whatsoever in my opinion because the answers are almost always collected from their list of registered voters and the questions and the answers are very controlled. The poll itself is sort of like the true-false, yes or no type of questions that are written deliberately to achieve a predetermined result. Only GOD's laws are written in stone, the rest are man-made and they should be discussed to the nth degree by all citizens with the capacity to think. Let me think of an example i.e. poll questions the way I would write them since I am against Hillary Clinton: My Poll:answer these question yes or no: 1) is Hillary Clinton in favor of killing innocents? 2) is Hillary Clinton the wife of man who was almost impeached for adultery, perjury and sexual harassment of an insubordinate? 3) Is Hillary Clinton the NY Senator who has abandoned that post seeking a better paying job? 4) Is Hillary Clinton outspoken in favor of abortion? 5) do birds of a feather flock together? 6) Is a person known by the company they keep? 7) Is Hillary trustworthy?
I trust this makes my point in more ways than one. Polls are intended to accomplish an agenda. If the news really reported the news they would report the results in actual time, including who voted, how they voted, and with how many votes AFTER all votes were counted, and not predict/spin/push-poll the people. They would also label commentary as that and not as news, and they would not accept propaganda that is paid for by a candidate and label it "news". signed gloria poole, RN

Posted by: Gloria Poole, RN | January 14, 2008 1:51 PM | Report abuse

Yup, the Democrat agenda has been a long time to have a minority vote on their side in exchange of "benefits". Look what they did to Blacks with their tactics. Now they try the same with others, but I don't think it will succeed with Asians and Hispanics (i.e. too much drive to excel and / or honor to stay put and be spoon-fed by bunch of White schemers from Washington D.C.)

Yes, you guessed it right: I am Black, Republican, educated, and proud of it!

Posted by: Democrat Agenda | January 14, 2008 1:49 PM | Report abuse

Polls: Nothing more than a "media" created device to attempt to influence an issue (whatever that may be) toward the ultimate result that aligns with the "political correctness" of the day. Having lived 76 years now and I have never been polled even once so they damn well don't reflect my choices.

Immigration: In all my discussions regarding this dilemma I have not encountered one person against immigration. What everyone is against is "illegal" immigration. We are/were a nation of law but we have now succumbed to the law of "political correctness" which is being reinforced by the lack of integrity in our Congress and our federal judicial activist system. There is enough blame to go around but it falls directly on the federal government and its lack of intestinal fortitude to enforce the current and long standing laws regarding immigration. Reagan believed he could stop it when he granted amnesty to 6 million years ago. It did nothing more than intensify the determination of the millions that have followed. There truly would be no punishment. That's a deal that can't be beaten and they realize that fact.

Posted by: dave harper | January 14, 2008 1:48 PM | Report abuse

If you're a republican, you're an insensative money grubbing racist that wants to give breaks to the rich and big business.
If you're a democrat, you want to increase spending on people that don't work for a living and penalize the wealthy for working hard and creating jobs.
If you're something other than that, the polls won't talk about you because you're not a good enough story. That was not a plug for Nadar.
My family came to the US legally. We work hard. We pay taxes to live in a great country. I don't think I should be required to pay for social programs that support those that break the law. If I don't support breaking immigration laws, does that mean I hate Mexicans?

Posted by: labels | January 14, 2008 1:47 PM | Report abuse

When the nation wakes up to the reality that polls are a marketing technique to push the election toward or away from a particular candidate, they won't even bother to read them anymore or they will read them as they would read a political ad. Preelection polls are nothing but marketing. They are almost always paid for by a candidate. The details may be hidden through PACs and what is called "soft money" but they are commissioned [ordered as a product] and paid for with taxpayer or private campaign money as part of the marketing or PR campaign to elect a politician. They have no value whatsoever in my opinion because the answers are almost always collected from their list of registered voters and the questions and the answers are very controlled. The poll itself is sort of like the true-false, yes or no type of questions that are written deliberately to put a spin on the results. Only GOD's laws are written in stone, the rest are man-made and they should be discussed to the nth degree by all citizens with the capacity to think. Let me think of an example poll questions the way I would write them since I am against Hillary Clinton: My Poll:answer these question yes or no: 1) is Hillary Clinton in favor of killing innocents? 2) is Hillary Clinton the wife of man who was almost impeached for adultery, perjury and sexual harassment of an insubordinate? 3) Is Hillary Clinton the NY Senator who has abandoned that post seeking a better paying job? 4) Is Hillary Clinton outspoken in favor of abortion?
I trust this makes my point in more ways than one. Polls are intended to accomplish an agenda. If the news really reported the news they would report the results in actual who voted how and with how many votes AFTER all votes were counted, and not predict/spin/push-poll the people. They would also label commentary as that and not as news, and they would not accept propaganda that is paid for by a candidate and label it "news". signed gloria poole, RN

Posted by: Gloria Poole, RN | January 14, 2008 1:46 PM | Report abuse

america is a melting pot, not a chamber pot.

like the mexcrement toilet on our southernborder.

....or the greater los angeles area.

Posted by: filthywetback | January 14, 2008 1:45 PM | Report abuse

Immigration will never go away, nor will the theft of services. So here is a possible solution.

Since America is standing on the shoulders of the immigrant because of our over-inflated lifestyle; illigals will always be present.
There needs to be a defined method to obtain the billions of dollars the earn and TAX it. So anytime a wire transfer or money is mailed to say MEXICO, tax it at 33%. This TAX can be recovered when they show proof of U.S. citizenship or a valid TAX ID number. If there is no claim, put it in the education fund and bilingual services (i.e. EMT, Fire and Police).

See problem solved, they get education and we get reimbursed.

Posted by: CYberPunk | January 14, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

Can anyone come up with a number of immigrants that America could, would, or should be accepting per year? When is America considered "full"? Even without any more immigrants, our population figures will naturally expand and grow, and the government will have a hard enough time finding the money to pay for the infrastructure to support our own growth, as well as the upkeep of the existing infrastructure. Every city, county, and even the feds are in the red, no budget surpluses anywhere.

Seriously folks, you have to take emotion out of this, and look at the hard and fast facts. Until we fix our own problems and take care of our own citizens, we just shouldn't be looking how we can take care of others. It's sad, but again, take the emotion out of this discussion because we have to deal with reality. Someone comes up with a logical solution to how we support our own citizens first, and also have a way to financially support new immigrants coming in (since they typically use more in social services than they put in), then I'll be ready to listen. Until then, I think most of American citizens say "enough is enough".

Posted by: Sean Addams | January 14, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

I have a right to expect that my government will screen immigrants so that my fellow citizens are reasonably assumed to be honorable. Whether you come here or your own or brought here by your parents, if you are not here legally, you are not honorable by any normal standard and you never will be.

My Italian grandparents each applied for immigration and waited 3 years prior to coming to the USA. My Scotch grandparents each applied in Scotland, renewed application in England a year later and again in Ireland another year later. They moved to Canada after two years in Ireland and reapplied finally arriving here after four years and with the first 5 of 13 children.

Strung together that's 22 years of individual perseverance just to be able to enter this country honorably. I refuse to agree to share this country with any fence-jumper who expects to dishonorably wishes to slap my ancestors in the face AT ANY COST.

Posted by: Late | January 14, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

I have yet to hear a practical solution to the 10+ million illegal immigrants here now. Sealing the border won't solve the problem of those here already. I hate to make legal what was illegal, but see no other realistic alternative because the numbers are so large. They need to be integrated into the country (English language, work permits, SSN, taxes, drivers licenses, path to citizenship, etc.). We can absorb them, just can't tolerate them in hiding. Let them contribute to the greatest country with the strongest economy in the world.

Posted by: Jonathan | January 14, 2008 1:44 PM | Report abuse

In reply to Jeff, who thinks that illegals only do so because of our nasty habit of having immigration laws, let me provide you with some basic information. First, the USA is a sovereign nation . Second, the USA has a right to restrict immigration. Third, NO ONE HAS THE "RIGHT" TO COME HERE! THIS IS A NATION WITH BORDERS. OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE NO WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE'S INCLUDING MEXICO!Fourth: By controlling immigration we protect our country from overpopulation, from diseases (illegals carry polio, TB, and even Bubonic Plague) , and we make certain that public welfare benefits go to IMPOVERISHED AMERICANS. Your racist comments about "white immigrants" are typically stupid. The "whites" who came here in the 1700's and early 1800's came to a land that was vastly underpopulated, and as often as not "passed through" the United States to settle in western territories that were not yet a part of the union. Times change, Jeff, and immigration laws change with them. Finally, when will some of you learn that the United States is not "the world's communal money pile" , and the fact that we have generated a wealthy economy does not require us to allow everyone in to share in the profits? This is especially true (like it or not) of ignorant illegals from 3rd world countries who, upon arrival, will vote their "stomachs" without any grasp of capitalism or even democracy itself. The political ramifications of illegal aliens cannot be minimized as we are slowly changed from a free market economy to a socialist refugee camp.

Posted by: MarkC | January 14, 2008 1:42 PM | Report abuse

Simon666, that's what I've been saying all along. An oh-so-simple solution, yet oh-so-difficult for bureaucrats to understand.

Posted by: Hortdork | January 14, 2008 1:41 PM | Report abuse

The problem with Illegal Immigration is that in the early 80's we had very few and today we many millions. I live in Houston, Texas where there are millions alone and they are devestating our Hospitals and Schools. For example, I rushed my little boy to one of the best Pediatrics hospitals in the country to find that the waiting room was over whelmed with Illegals to the point that I had to leave and go to another hospital down the street. The waiting room literally had at least 110 Illegals waiting to see a doctor. Who was paying for all of this? My tax dollars - and guess what - I did not get to use the service that I pay for but the Illegals use it for free!!! In Houston they have a system where Illegals get to go to Pre-School at the public elementary for free and the tax paying Legal Citizens have to pay and send their children to private PreK. What is the deal with this? I was in South Texas this weekend and the rancher/farmer I know carries a Rifle at all times because of the Other Than Mexican that is crossing across his land! America better wake up and wake up quickly!! If you live in a place where you do not have the Illegal Immigrant problem and don't think it will effect you then you better wake up because the Mexicans are having 4 children for every 1 child the African American and Caucasion is having. Come to Houston and I'll show you the very large areas where the Illegals are living and they look exactly like the horrible areas directly across the Texas border. You should see the drugs, poverty, crime, gangs & filth they bring with them. Wake up America before you become them!!! Will Mexico take Texas over without fireing a shot?????

Posted by: Jimmy | January 14, 2008 1:41 PM | Report abuse

Howcome no one talks about helping Mexico be a better country so people won't even WANT to come here?

Also howcome when people talk about illegal immigrants they say and think "Mexican"? There are PLENTY of illegal Canadians in the US...but since they're white they get left alone.

We don't need a black president...we need a Mexican one for a term just to give the country a kick in it's own ass!

Posted by: DaveOner | January 14, 2008 1:41 PM | Report abuse

BWLundgren you are an idiot for believing a lie. The truth is employers (like farmers) do not want to pay taxes on their labor. They do not want to pay for benefits to their workforce. They do not want to pay for the record keeping, nor the paperwork, nor anything extra to maintain a federally funded operation (read subsidies). This ALSO means they do not want to pay fair wages. Look, you and I would be in Watsonville, CA to pick strawberries in no time if you had been offered full benies and $20 an hour. So rephrase your lack of education to the truth. Employers want to rape you, and the gvt wants to back them up, not you, because they pay more taxes than you or I ever will. THE TRUTH is employers do not want to pay, and illegal aliens don't care if they are underpaid (they'd make a less than a tenth back home), so the gvt paves the way to allow this, and puts in the words Mexican nationals to confuse the issue towards racism. BTW, If you are an African American, does your allegiance lie first with Africa, then America? More politically correct crap to confuse the issue that we are all here to work and live together as people - why the wierd classifications?

Posted by: wellinformed and I WILL VOTE FOR RON PAUL | January 14, 2008 1:38 PM | Report abuse

Totally absurd.
Why do you think the democratic party Wants all the illegals to be welcome here??? Because they KNOW that %90 of them when given the chance WILL VOTE Democrat.
Totally agenda driven from the left.
The left cares NOT if they destroy the country as long as they have the POWER....
And the Right is NOT far behind..
Face it our Political system is CORRUPT to the Bone..
Politicians are in it for their own benefit and Special Interest MONEY.....

Posted by: TommyD | January 14, 2008 1:36 PM | Report abuse

I think referring to people concerned about illegal immigration as the "send-them-home crowd" subtlely paints everyone as harsh and uncaring. I would rather be called part of the "either enforce the immigration laws or change the law" crowd. What we need is an intelligent discussion about what our immigration laws are, and whether they should be changed, or not. Having laws, and then not enforcing them, and providing amnesty after they are broken, is crazy, and it sends the wrong message about whether our laws are important. It's time we have an open and honest discussion about what's important to us, and have our laws reflect that. What we are doing today - having laws, but not enforcing them, is gutless.

Posted by: BeavertonBob | January 14, 2008 1:36 PM | Report abuse

What if that illegal immigrant didn't have a choice to be in america?? What if that choice was made by parents when she was 14? What if she graduated as one of top 10 in class with 3.9 GPA? What if she has a clear vision of where she wants to be and what she wants to be in the future? There are so many American students in college who come to school to party party but to party... Wearing pearls, coach bags, and lily dresses make them so cool, they can put down the others. I think I contributed to this country more than those who have no idea how to live their lives.

Posted by: Listen to your self | January 14, 2008 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Nice to think at this point, that humans had the habit of being in the look out for better places to live. They behaved that way even when they were primitive. This explains how the Euroamericans and also the so called illegal immigrants came into existence.

Posted by: Thomas Matheoos | January 14, 2008 1:35 PM | Report abuse

McCain is leading AND the top priority is illegal immigration!!?? Does anyone understand what he tried to push through a few months ago!!??

Anyone who has ever lived in a country other than their own for several years please raise your hand.... Oh, that would be me. If your minority group was less than 1% of the population raise your hand... me again.

When I lived out of the states, if I didn't register with the foreign government EVERY TIME I moved into a new city, I would have been deported. When someone my father was managing got caught breaking and entering, my dad was given a simple choice: Put the idiot on a plane out of the country, or the next time he breaks the law you BOTH go to jail!

There is a BIG difference between those who are LEGAL vs ILLEGAL. To move to another country you need to get your passport, wait several months for your visa, then if it does come through you better comply with all the rules and regulations of that country or you will be thrown out I don't care how many kids you have. Having kids does not somehow justify breaking the law.

I am sick and tired of people calling others who are against breaking the law racist. We need to enforce the laws we already have, Arizona is enforcing existing law against businesses that hire illegals and ILLEGALS are leaving in droves.

Lets enforce laws we have drive illegals out, not legals. Then expand the guest worker program like crazy, let people come back as DOCUMENTED workers, that we track and tax. If they move and don't notify the govt. Deported plain and simple.

WE DON'T TOLERATE STEROIDS IN SPORTS WHY TOLERATE THIS ISSUE IN REAL LIFE. ITS LIKE SAYING ANY ATHLETE THAT IS ILLEGAL CAN USE STEROIDS, BUT ANYONE ELSE CAN'T! WHY THE DIFFERENT RULES AND TREATMENT!

If I have a heart attack tomorrow, I walk out of the hospital with $100,000 bill, if I'm illegal its free!!!???????????

Posted by: James | January 14, 2008 1:34 PM | Report abuse

I just got my Citizenship in late 2007 and I must say that it was the best day of my life. I am originally from Finland and moved here 1998 legally with a Student Visa, which converted to Work Visa, which converted to Green Card, and finally after 9+ yrs I got my US Citizenship, which I hold in the highest regard.

And yes, since 1998 I have diligently gone through every interview, background check, paid my process fees, and taxes from my earnings like any law abiding citizen would do.

And no, I don't agree with amnesty, because it sends a message that "heck, jump the border because they will give you amnesty at some point anyway." Plus I did it the right way and paid my dues and I was also checked by the US Officials that I don't have a criminal background, volunteered my fingerprints, etc. So I am securely in the US Govt database if I happen to go "bad" at some point -- which I highly doubt -- but if I do then it is easier for the Law Enforcement to take me down.

However what is not said is that living outside the society means that many have to resort to illegal activities to support themselves as well as to tap into tax money because they have no other means to take care of the medical expenses, food, etc. My former country is a Welfare State (READ: Socialist to be more accurate) which I loathe for supporting lazy parasites and I really wish not to experience any of that in the US of A -- ever.

Before I worked my way to where I am today (Sr. Engineer) I worked in supermarket as a bagger/checker with a College degree and I watched these people using food stamps and it made me sick to my stomach: I couldn't communicate with any one of them because they didn't speak English (or Finnish, Swedish, German, French) and they were dressed better than some American families who came through my check lane and paid with cash (sometimes counting pennies even). And I was also there working in the check stand because no other job was available, but yet some people got benefits from my tax money that I could have used to pay my family's rent, food, insurance coverage, etc.

THIS IS WRONG!

If there is even one POOR ***American*** family who could use support then I don't want to see a non-American to be able to show up and abuse the system.

And please don't tell me I am wrong because I watched this circus on my very own eyes and it was terrible and *VERY* real.

I am not directing this to any particular ethnic group, because while some people point fingers to the South of the US I can point fingers to the East and West where, for example, Russian Mafia and their illegal hitmen roam the land.

And like said I am not singling out Russians either (or anybody else), but merely want to make a point that all illegal immigration must be discouraged with heavy hand and who ever tries to enter this country without a legal permission to do so should be punished for it to the fullest extent of the law.

Why? Because it is a huge problem to all of us legal Americans -- native or naturalized and a massive bill in terms of tax dollars!

GOD BLESS THE USA, THE US GOVERNMENT, AND THE MEMBERS US ARMED FORCES HOME AND ABROAD!

Posted by: New Citizen | January 14, 2008 1:34 PM | Report abuse

As a non American, I always find it interesting how the entire immigration debate, whether legal or illegal, always centers around the "Mexican invasion".

What about the aspirant immigrants from other parts of the world? I am the only member of my family that is not an American citizen or permanent resident. In addition, I am a majority shareholder in our family business, which employs Americans and pays hundreds of thousands in taxes every year.

Despite all of this, it is virtualy impossible for me to join my family legally in the US. As a result, I have been forced to apply for permenent residence in Canada and have no choice but to relocate my business and the jobs and the taxes to that country.

In the meantime, all anyone in the US cares about are the Mexicans.

Posted by: mornem | January 14, 2008 1:33 PM | Report abuse

I guess I am just out of touch, but I care very little about the illegal immigration debate. It just sounds like more scape-goating: Chinese, Jews, Italians, Irish, ...

We need workers to make the economy grow. Sorry to say this, but someone who has the gumption to come here from another country to work (and pay taxes!) may contribute more to the US economy than a born-in-the-USA citizen. Yes, there is a hugh problem with the current laws, and no I am not in favor of everyone in the world moving to the US. Still we need skilled and unskilled workers in the US, and our citizens are not enthusiastic about the fields most in demand.

Perhaps we should throw open the whole citizenship game--revoke everyone's citizenship and then award citizenship to those who contribute most to the strength, well being and growth of the USA. We could send all those pesky minutemen back where they belong--to (socialized) Europe!

Posted by: SDR | January 14, 2008 1:32 PM | Report abuse

Simon666 for President! That it the most logically, well thought-out, well-compromised solution presented. Without piss and vinegar you addressed the problem and MORE IMPORTANTLY provided a solution. Thank you for the smart post!

Posted by: Steady State | January 14, 2008 1:31 PM | Report abuse

Send them home, and go through the 2 year system like I did, then Learn the language, stop hanging around your own people, be a real American

Posted by: Kaare Bye | January 14, 2008 1:30 PM | Report abuse

Jeff's post was absolutely on the money - reposting it because everyone needs to read it:

There is only one way to fix illegal immigration, and that is to improve the legal immigration process. People immigrate illegally because it is almost impossible to immigrate to America legally. 95% of illegal immigrants are a great asset to this country. The ones causing the problems are US, who fail to provide a reasonable means for people to immigrate into the US. By the way, how many people are aware of the fact that the immigration laws on the US make it harder and more expensive for someone to immigrate from Mexico than from Canada? By making it harder for Mexicans to legally immigrate all we do is foster illegal immigration.

Posted by: Jeff | January 14, 2008 01:20 PM

Posted by: Tim B | January 14, 2008 1:30 PM | Report abuse

to: christopherm

the same reason police often do not enforce laws that prevent GPS units, notepads, etc, from being attached to your windshield: it's impractical and burdensome most of the time.

Posted by: simon666 | January 14, 2008 1:30 PM | Report abuse

Don't listen to xenophobes...

They're just "Racist-Lite". The fact that they think they have economics backing up their position doesn't change the fact that they enjoy hating brown people...

Posted by: BanjoBill | January 14, 2008 1:30 PM | Report abuse

Your readers make another thing very clear....they are drama queens. It reminds me of a liberterian/conservative supporter who told me 5 years ago that if the price of oil reached $80/barrel that the economy would collapse. It is at $100...we are getting by. For all the passionate comments, the reality is that everything is just fine. The country is not going into ruins. Actually, the opposite is true. The only reason we have a "weak" dollar isn't because the US is doing terribly, but because the world is doing great...it is because *their* currency is getting stronger.

That is a good thing--we want everyone in the world to be as well off as we have been. Unfortunately, it may cost us lower level jobs and higher prices as the foreign work force becomes educated and demands higher pay. But we will get through it. We are Americans.

Posted by: Henry S. | January 14, 2008 1:29 PM | Report abuse

I really didn't have much of an opinion on illegal immigration till the day they had their immigration march on downtown Phoenix. On that day, unlike any day before or any day since... there was hardly any traffic on the freeways at rush hour. Think about it. Also, today in Phoenix they caught the Chandler Rapist. He was linked by DNA to the crimes. Guess what? He's an illegal immigrant deported 2 times before. Oh wait, that reminds me of the illegal that shot a Phoenix cop 4 months ago... oh wait... I dislocated my shoulder 3 weeks ago and had to wait in an emergency room for over an hour in agonizing pain... what did the nurse tell me the reason for the long wait was? Ohhh illegals... Please let's send them all home!!

Posted by: Jerrod | January 14, 2008 1:29 PM | Report abuse

I'm a liberal democrat. But I disagree with my party on the immigration issue. I think the right thing to do is to amend the constitution so that the children of illegal immigrants don't automatically get citizenship. No more anchor babies. Then deny benefits to illegal immigrants. No more free high school education to their kids, no more free health care. We can't even provide health care to our own citizens. And most importantly we need to crack down HARD on those who employ illegal immigrants. Some would say my policies are racist. This is not to punish any particular race or group. But a nation that cannot control it's borders is in trouble.

Posted by: Regor | January 14, 2008 1:28 PM | Report abuse

First off do any of you who are writing for illegals, realize the difference is ILLEGAL VS LEGAL!

Most people want only that it is done right. After 9/11 and the expired visa's we as a country need to know who is moving in and out of our borders. Find me a country that just lets people come and go as they please. It is a security risk. We got a wake up call. Why wont the rest of you remember that and WAKE UP. Illegal citizens get benefits that should be redirected to homeless, those who cant afford medical care.

We must change the laws to ensure that what changes we are making are geared in the right direction.

We shouldn't be paying taxes and letting any worker not pay taxes due to their citizien status.

Posted by: KitchenWitch | January 14, 2008 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Wow. We just LOVE our stupid laws in America. We are so self righteous and have such contempt for our brothers and sisters south of the border. Its amazing. And yet we all think we're a great, hospitable and righteous country. Simply amazing.

We have Hitler Bush at the helm. Worse, we sort of voted for him. He was ALMOST the winner. We don't give a spit about healthcare and the poor. Our greedy corporations have paid off the government and most of our jobs are gone. We are paying for an ILLEGAL WAR. And you idiots are all talking about Mexicans who came here to do stupid dirty jobs that NONE of YOU would ever do. The USA has become a really bad Jerry Springer show.

Posted by: Joel | January 14, 2008 1:28 PM | Report abuse

First: Illegal immigration is a crime, so why do people continue to justify the crime with discussions about jobs or "illegals doing work americans won't"? Should we not prosecute corporations that violate the law (like Enron) if they contribute some of their earnings to charity? People need to remember that we are a sovereign nation and a nation of laws. Laws are to be enforced. In reply to the comment regarding buses, boxcars and Hitler, again, the defeatist attitude "Gee, the problem is huge, so let's ignore the law" is not a solution to anything but is a mark of slovenliness that is beneath contempt. Here, folks, is what we do: (1) By executive Order, the President should announce that all illegals must leave (voluntarily) within 90 days. (2) After 90 days, as illegals are caught, they should be immediately deported and should have all property and bank accounts confiscated by the government (just as in Drug cases) to cover the costs. (3) Corporations that hire illegals should suffer the same consequences (asset forfeiture) . Once illgals start returning home without any money or property the incentive to sneak accross should die off. Finally (and this is unfortunately draconian) repeat offenders should have the words "illegal alien" tattooed on their foreheads so they will not be able to cross over a third time.

Posted by: christopherm | January 14, 2008 1:27 PM | Report abuse

Get of the "it used to belong to Mexico" thing... Yes, it did but had the southwest remained in Mexican hands it would be just like Mexico today... a third world, lawless, corrupt slum.

Posted by: Dale | January 14, 2008 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Reply to: "Too bad this young man couldn't have behaved honorably from the start by getting a visa BEFORE he came here at age 15."

Well, if he had applied for a visa and waited to immigrate legally he would never make it to America in the first place. He would certainly have been turned down. When you don't allow people to immigrate legally, they will do so illegally. All of the people who complain about illegal immigrants have zero understanding of immigration law in the United States. If it were easy to legally immigrate then don't you think these people would do it? Of course they would. They risk their lives to come over illegally because it is the only way, unlike the ancestors fo most whte American's who only had to come over and a ship and get their papers stamped as soon as they got off. If it were as easy to immigrate today as it was 100 years ago then there wouldn't be an issue.

Posted by: Jeff | January 14, 2008 1:26 PM | Report abuse

agree with dbredes: divide and rule... is what is in action when candidates talk of eliminating immigrants. They don't want you to realize even if you are insured that doesn't ensure you will get the care when you need it, the expensive one, not the morning after pill. Get a clue people.

Do you realize Americans want to buy Toyota and Nissan and not the US brand names, lazy, demanding union workers who want to be paid for not working are killing the economy. India is taking our business and investments are heading south east. europe started a program of blue card to recruit the best talent in the world and US cuts their numbers to 60K visas. Who you think will reign the world economy in 10 yrs from now. I wouldn't be you because those who compalin of immigration will be jobless and without social security or health coverage... then you will go to Mexico to get treatment.

I know it is quite ridiculous as it sounds but i said that to make a point.. GET your priorities straight based on evidence not because some politician tell you so. Americans rule the world because each individual is smart and make decisions on their own so please just do that and stay on top of everything.

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 1:25 PM | Report abuse

I here in the US to spread the world of Allah. No boddy has the right to ask me for the papers. When we conquer Amerika than they can ask!!!

Allah Akbar!!!!

Posted by: Allah Akbar | January 14, 2008 1:23 PM | Report abuse

i think most are well aware, and i hate to use such a cliche, 'the media', be it television, and most newspapers excluding i suppose now, the tribune company and few others, are setup to make money, not report in an unbiased way. ultimately playing to peoples emotions rather than their minds. my father said it best; when he travels he said, he never sees a sign that says 'welcome to a blue state' or 'welcome to a red state'.

in regards to immigration the solutions is as follows: invest in mexico's economy so people wont have to come here to make a living, streamline a process for illegal immigrants to get visas and or apply for citizenship so we can at least have documented people being introduced into the system and our society, deport illegal immigrants to who break the law, enforce border security without going overboard in terms of practicality or economics (aka 2000 mile fence), and educate the US citizens to not feel threatened by foreign language speaking peoples coming here and to realize no matter how they think things SHOULD be, that people will always want to come here, and that is the way things ARE.

And we will need to work within that reality (framework) to have a comprehensive solution.

Posted by: simon666 | January 14, 2008 1:22 PM | Report abuse

Todd: a quick search of the page reveals you were the first person to use the word "racist", so good job on that. Secondly, your demands for logic conflict with your gratuitous use of the emotionally-loaded term "invaders", so good job on that too. Finally, despite all the freely-available evidence that traditional media is failing due to the internet and issues of relevance and timeliness, you make up a claim that it's due to the media's hatred of America. Awesome work, you're batting 1000 for the FOX team!

Posted by: Tim B | January 14, 2008 1:22 PM | Report abuse

I support immigration as long as it is LEGAL!! Obviously some here do not understand the difference between Legal and Illegal.

John McCain will NEVER make it through the Primaries as the GOP Nominee. He is where he is now simply because of the independents. When you bring in the REAL Conservative voters he is TOAST, and he should be.
I respect his service to our country with no reservation but John is no conservative. His RECORD in the Senate is PROOF of that.
Look at the FACTS not the Media SPIN!!!!!

Posted by: TommyD | January 14, 2008 1:21 PM | Report abuse

I have no problem with any race or immigrant as long as they come to this country and pay the same share of taxes as I do each week.

Posted by: coldsnap | January 14, 2008 1:21 PM | Report abuse

All the socialists commenting here about illegals want to ignore one thing-the term illegal. They avoid it on purpose. They lump all immigrants into one, legal and illegal. No one, abosolutely no one is refering to legal immigrants. We are the most generous nation on earth. The facts are we allow more legally here annually than all the nations on planet earth combined. Ilegal is breaking the law, something you socialists don't have any concept of. I am hispanic and want all illegals where ever they came from to leave and come back the legal way. It is a fact they are a drain on all our resources-more than they are giving back. Because if they were not working a legal person would be. There are not anywhere near 20 million agricultural jobs in the whole nation. They come here get these types of jobs and now are leaving them for better jobs. Look out you socialists, that job they are taking may be yours in the future or worse yet your kids or grandkids if you care.

Posted by: Quark | January 14, 2008 1:20 PM | Report abuse

There is only one way to fix illegal immigration, and that is to improve the legal immigration process. People immigrate illegally because it is almost impossible to immigrate to America legally. 95% of illegal immigrants are a great asset to this country. The ones causing the problems are US, who fail to provide a reasonable means for people to immigrate into the US. By the way, how many people are aware of the fact that the immigration laws on the US make it harder and more expensive for someone to immigrate from Mexico than from Canada? By making it harder for Mexicans to legally immigrate all we do is foster illegal immigration.

Posted by: Jeff | January 14, 2008 1:20 PM | Report abuse

It's amazing how most people and pundits blame the polls for being wrong, but few question whether the vote count itself was accurate, especially considering problems with recent presidential elections. About 80% of the votes in New Hampshire were counted by Diebold electronic scanning machines which have been demonstrated and proven to be highly insecure. In areas where votes were counted by hand Obama beat Clinton and in fact the polls were extremely accurate for most of the other candidates except for Clinton.

In fact post elections polls are so accurate that are often used in other democracies to ensure that an election was legitimate. AS Stalin observed long ago -it doesn't mattter who votes, it only matters who counts the votes.

Posted by: TomK | January 14, 2008 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Don't grant a illegal anything ? They are breaking the law! They don't pay for the services they get and put a huge amount of pressure on all the social systems we have and pay for! Come legal or don''t come at all!

Posted by: HVW | January 14, 2008 1:20 PM | Report abuse

You really have to wonder why people from Mexico would want to pack up all their things and move to a land of rich resources - you know, the one that used to belong to Mexico less than 200 years ago?

I am neither for or against reform, being somebody that went to school and has a job that requires greater than a high school education, but I say kudos to any Mexican living in America that has been able to take a little bit back. You can't be surprised, and you certainly can't blame a Mexican for seeking the resources that were once his - this problem doesn't exist in Wisconsin.

Posted by: NotanIdiot | January 14, 2008 1:20 PM | Report abuse

Maybe the GOP should punish businesses for hiring illegals? HAHAHA, yeah right!

Bush has fined like 20 buinesses for hiring illegals. I think Clinton fined a few hundred in 1999 alone.

Call your GOP senator if want illegal immigratin to stop, and listen to them squirm when you mention this fact and big business.

Posted by: JasonMcJ | January 14, 2008 1:19 PM | Report abuse

We have got to stop living in the clouds... how can we say our workforce is over educated? Most Americans only have a high school diploma then take some kind of technical training... We are importing top scientists, lawyers, nurses, engineers from many foreign countries... Ilegals arent driving the cost of labor down... they are doing the jobs no one else wants to do... We have a serious problem in that we want to get paid more than what the job is really worth... Us americans are overpaid big time!

Posted by: JD | January 14, 2008 1:19 PM | Report abuse

As a man closing in on retirement I see a poor future for all in America. We spend tax dollars to educate illegals and fail to educate our own children to the extent needed. Our abilities in math, science and technology at the pre-college level is dismal.
Stop complaining and get out into your neighborhood schools and see for yourself what you can do to change the future for our kids and grandkids. Or are you expecting the "government to do it" just like they have for the last 30 years? What is the definition of insanity? Ans: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Only you can make a difference - get out and get involved in teaching our children, our grandchildren and quit complaining that no one is doing it - NO ONE also includes YOU!

Posted by: JimS | January 14, 2008 1:19 PM | Report abuse

The Pilgrims were the first illegal immigrants let's remember that our country has been built upon immigrants and that they are the backbone of our nation. Many of the illegal immigrants who arrive here come from countries where they would most likely be dead either from horribly poor living conditions (has anyone really studied the countries these people come from, including Mexico?) or from extreme political regimes . America is known for the "American Dream" are we going to take that away from us and the world? Let's not remain the laughing stock of the world.

Posted by: awoods | January 14, 2008 1:19 PM | Report abuse

The naked bigotry and viciouness of the radical right is clear in some of these comments. If these people think that the right wing media is liberal (read Fox, WSJ and others) they must be sofar to the right that they are in danger of falling off the political landscape.

Oh, wait. They are.

Posted by: rs1199 | January 14, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Illegal Immigration...

People have forgotten our country opened the borders during World War 2. Has any one every wondered who kept this nation moving while most young, healthy men where either in Europe, Northern Africa or Asia. It was the U.S. that asked Mexico for help and once they opened that door.... well you folks no the story.

Every Mexican child is taught how President Polk, illegally went about capturing half of Mexico. Grant (who later became President) called it an "unjust war". This is history that is not taught in our schools.

The result is most of Mexico believes the land in morally and justly Mexican.

Read a History Book. Learn about President Polk and how he suckered congress to support him.

Prove me wrong.

Posted by: Historian | January 14, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

Why can't Euroamericans understand that you can not go around stealing land and then calling the natives illegals? This is what Jews are doing to Palestinians. Then afterward you want to build walls to keep them out of their own land and justify it by saying it's to keep terrorists out. Did you people get this stuff out of the AIPAC playbook?

Posted by: esr | January 14, 2008 1:17 PM | Report abuse

The problem as I see it is that there are way too many stupid white people in this country. What's worse, these stupid white people are allowed to breed with other stupid white people, creating more stupid white people. There are two possible solutions to this problem. This country either needs to adopt a "One stupid white child policy" or we allow immigrants into this country.

Posted by: hamishdad | January 14, 2008 1:17 PM | Report abuse

It is true that blue-collar jobs aren't the only kind of jobs sent overseas. Indian and Pakistani accountants are performing work that used to be done by college-educated Americans. Indians have learned the U.S. Tax Code, and have work electronically sent to them by American CPA firms. So a college degree and higher education will not save America's young people. I realize that America is in a decline while China and other countries are rising economically; but American politicians cannot tell their constituents the truth.

Posted by: tabaS | January 14, 2008 1:16 PM | Report abuse

So...who here has lost a job to an illegal? I didn't think so.

Also, they pay taxes, but do not get ebenefits, because they use fake SSN's. Has anyone thought about that? It the truth...look it up.

That does not mean there are not other problems, there are...but illegal immigration is being blown way out of proportion.

Posted by: King | January 14, 2008 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Yeah of course those immigrants may take over this country just like the "Americans" did centuries ago. The outlaws from UK .. shouldn't we round them (us) up first because they (our ancestors) came over, killed and overpowered the natives and took over as "Americans" and dictate who should and should not come this country.

Aren't we just afraid of what will happen to us because we did the wrong first and karma will bite us now?

I know this sounds ridiculous so is the thought of kicking out immigrants who actually do contribute in big ways, n ot by taxes, as much, but they contribute to well being, yours and mine in many ways.

Its 21st century folks! google it and you shall find the economic benefit of immigrants. the very people who favor this sentiment are the industrial and business giants who will send the work overseas and you will just keep talking of rights.
Geez people

Posted by: realist | January 14, 2008 1:16 PM | Report abuse

Polls are being used for propaganda. Criminals did NOT build America; Citizens and LEGAL immigrants built it. Illegal Aliens and Immigration is NOT the same thing. 80% of the American people want an end to anarchy! This is NOT a Democrat, Republican, Independent issue. It's an American Issue.

Illegal aliens are criminals, those who hire them are criminals and those who aid-and-abet them are criminals.

Illegal aliens in America have NO rights. We are required by law to arrest and prosecute, deport them. (Title 8 U.S. Code) To report illegal aliens call the DHS National Hotline 1 866 DHS 2ICE. (1-866-347-2523)

No, matter your political party affiliation, and setting aside your thoughts on issues. We all need to remember what it is to be an American Citizen. We need to make sure our elected representatives obey their Oath of Office and keep their Oath of Allegiance. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl Know whom you are voting for.

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 1:15 PM | Report abuse

I beleive that most people feel the easiest solution (ie removal) to the illegal presence of foreigners in our country is somewhat disconnected with the reality of their contribution to our society. While the average American born teenager wishes of a college education, new car, social status, etc., most illegal immigrants are struggling day to day working jobs I prefer be left to those more physically inclined. Any reasonable economist would agree that a strong economy is one that has an equally strong manual workforce. My solution: NOT amnesty, but a temporary work authorization that requires annual renewal and reports income realized by the permit holder for taxation purposes.This way we reap the benefit of an able bodied worforce - WILLING TO WORK - and have them pay for such a priviledge ( ie fees and taxes)... Just my opinion

Posted by: Inmigrante | January 14, 2008 1:15 PM | Report abuse

You really have to wonder why people from Mexico would want to pack up all their things and move to a land of rich resources - you know, the one that used to belong to Mexico less than 200 years ago?

I am neither for or against reform, being somebody that went to school and has a job that requires greater than a high school education, but I say kudos to any Mexican living in America that has been able to take a little bit back. You can't be surprised, and you certainly can't blame a Mexican for seeking the resources that were once his - this problem doesn't exist in Wisconsin.

Posted by: NotanIdiot | January 14, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

What part of "illegal" in illegal immigrations does the Pukey Post not get?

Posted by: phoaglan | January 14, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Whats sad here is that Obama won't win the nomination. Simply because there are too many americans with outdated views and fear a black president. Clinton will somehow win the democratic nomination with a "surprise" surge.

Pathetic, that woman can't be trusted any more than the current president.

Posted by: Ryan | January 14, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Okay...So how many trucks would it take to get those illegal aliens out of our country? About 400,000?

So let's see...400,000 trucks start driving though American neighborhoods...Knocking down doors and loading up the immigrants...

But they won't fit...and it's too many trucks... I know...how about railroad cars...How many jews did Hitler fit in those cars...maybe that would work...

Come on folks...The immigration issue is a "red herring"...Like abortion or flag burning...

Which presidential candidate is advocating rounding up 12,000,000 citizens?...

This is just another way of "dividing us"...

Get a clue...Let's focus on the issues that affect 1 in 6 Americans like HEALTHCARE...

Posted by: dbredes | January 14, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

I would dispute the fact that our workforce is OVEReducated at this point. Is this why we have a large number of immigrants over here from China and India studying in undergraduate and graduate studies? For those companies who do not require citizenship to start in research positions, I would argue that we are losing ground in all jobs because America as a whole is getting more lazy.

Let's not even go into the grade inflation and self-esteem driven education our children receive in public schools as well. These days, I'd not be surprised to find a high school student (who most likely worked hard) with a 4.5 GPA.

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Boy, the vitriol is poisonous here.

Sadly, a lot looks like agenda post. I live in Maryland, and I do not know where some of these poster live, but in MD, I know nobody, DEM or I, who will vote for Hillary.


Regarding another post, the facts show that it is the GOP who has done WAY MORE to let illegal immigration run rampant in this county.

When you are in the pocket of GOP speical interests, beleive me, you want illegal immigration to lower the wages of all employees, so your GOP friednly business can turna much larger profit, further seperating rich and poor classes.

Posted by: JasonMcJ | January 14, 2008 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Shark, obviously you don't know the history of America either. The many immigrants who arrived on our shores from various countries came to Ellis Island FIRST, were documented and given thorough medical exams. They WANTED to learn English and worked very hard in their chosen professions. They didn't hide in trucks riding over the Rio Grande or other roads at night, nor did they "milk the system" by receiving free medical benefits, education, etc. For you to dare to compare the current illegal immgrants to those immgrants that followed the laws back then shows us how naive you really are.

Posted by: Ann | January 14, 2008 1:12 PM | Report abuse

It's been my experience that illegal immigrants fill positions that Americans refuse to work at. They're not taking jobs away from us they're filling jobs most Americans consider to be beneath their dignity to perform.

Posted by: BWLundgren | January 14, 2008 1:12 PM | Report abuse

If we cannot legally require illegal employees (something of an oxymoron!) to speak English in a predominately English speaking country, how do we delude ourselves into thinking that we can accomplish anything substantial regarding these invaders? We are strangled by greed and an ideology of political correctness. As long as we are so straitened there will be no deportations, no justice done to these criminals--but strangely, after the media and special interest groups and corrupt federal judges are through a dangerous legal precedent will have been set: Millions of ILLEGAL third world invaders will be granted amnesty. At that point American will already be, or can look forward to becoming, a balkanized sink of corruption, disease and poverty within 20-50 years. Look at the American southwest now and think ahead.

Posted by: simplyillegal | January 14, 2008 1:11 PM | Report abuse

Okay...So how many trucks would it take to get those illegal aliens out of our country? About 400,000?

So let's see...400,000 trucks start driving though American neighborhoods...Knocking down doors and loading up the immigrants...

But they won't fit...and it's too many trucks... I know...how about railroad cars...How many jews did Hitler fit in those cars...maybe that would work...

Come on folks...The immigration issue is a "red herring"...Like abortion or flag burning...

Which presidential candidate is advocating rounding up 12,000,000 citizens?...

This is just another way of "dividing us"...

Get a clue...Let's focus on the issues that we affect 1 in 6 Americans like HEALTHCARE...

Posted by: dbredes | January 14, 2008 1:11 PM | Report abuse

LETS BE FAIR. IF WE ALLOW MEXICANS TO COME TO DO YARD WORK FOR CHEAP, LETS ALLOW THE CHINESE TO COME BY PLANE TO DO YARD WORK FOR CHEAPER!

IF WE REWARD THOSE WHO BROKE THE LAW, HOW ABOUT REWARDING ME FOR NOT PAYING MY PARKING TICKETS!

Posted by: GW | January 14, 2008 1:10 PM | Report abuse

This may be a bit off subject but it really surprises me to see how much the media has an effect on everyone. Reading through these posts I did not see one single post that talked about immigration that did not talk about Mexicans or Mexico. Mexico is not everything south of border people. We don't ONLY get Hispanic immigrants either. Why do we assume that every immigrant comes from Mexico? Because that is what the media focuses on; and I know what someone is going to reply if there is a reply to this, you will probably bring up some statistic about how may immigrants from each country, etc. But that's not the point. The point is that we need to learn more about what we are talking about before we do so. One of my favorites, and I'll close with this, are those people that say that immigrants don't pay taxes, they are just stealing from the system. As a former illegal immigrant to this country I can say that no, I was NEVER exempt from taxes, I have always paid taxes, the only difference is, I never got any tax returns or any benefits from the government because I was not legally in the country. I think most illegal immigrants are in this situation.

Posted by: Ad Man | January 14, 2008 1:09 PM | Report abuse

You said "one of the most unpleasant comments about "immigrants" ..... Sir do you know what an immigrant is? I believe it is someone who applies to the host nation and upon getting permission and physical checks, background checks is allowed to enter the host country and obeying all the rules they can be a citizen.
What laws am I allowed to break in this country? I'm sick of you apologist for these criminals. David /Las Vegas

Posted by: david harcourt | January 14, 2008 1:09 PM | Report abuse

I can honestly say that illegal immigration is something I am not in favor of. I have lived in this country for 10 years. Working as a International Student. I felt that illegals get more priority than those who actually come here following the law. People who don't follow the law are rewarded while students like me from foreign countries who help develop this country are forced to leave with time and money they've invested in this country. I agree with many, this country was built on immigration. But not illegal immigration. If you want to promote immigrants, promote it via the legal right way.

Posted by: Harry | January 14, 2008 1:09 PM | Report abuse

I'm for sending all the hundreds of millions of illegal Europeans back where they came from. They must learn that this is a nation of laws.

Posted by: esr | January 14, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Old Atlantic, surely there is MORE than one study to support your hypothesis... or is there? More importantly, though this is not true in all cases, scientific papers with a shelf-life of over 10 years are not typically accepted as current unless there are many more studies upon which the findings from the older study support. Good job at finding one point to prove your thoughts, how about a few more.

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

When the British soldiers were shooting at us George Washington as a Commander in Chief was always on the Battle Front, on the line of fire, bullets were flying near his head, the sound of Cannons going off and dead soldiers all over the field.
A brave man George Washington was.

John McCain by his own words tells the world how he is going to lead our troops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wru8NRLdFE

You be the Judge.

John McCain for President!

Posted by: Roger | January 14, 2008 1:07 PM | Report abuse

"I am going to get a great job in the future and I am going to pay taxes and give much more to this country for helping me accomplish my dream."

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE!

Our workforce is already overeducated and there are not enough jobs for graduates now. What makes you think there will be enough jobs for you when you graduate? Oh, that's right, it's because you are not in touch with reality.

Combine the not-enough-jobs problem with the illegals-driving-down-the-cost-of-labor problem and anyone out there right now that's looking for a job or making less than their parents made 20 years ago can see that we, as a country, are royally screwed.

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Yes, by all means, let's build huge walls and lock ourselves away from the rest of the world. Recreate the Kremlin-style police state with national identity papers, checkpoints at every internal as well as external border, eavesdrop and spy on everyone (especially anyone with an accent). Then 95% of all American residents can be safe from that pesky 5% illegal immigrant population and we'll be prisoners of our own stupidity at allowing ourselves to be conned into believing this is a major problem to begin with. The "illegal immigrant" brouhaha is simply the GOP's new wedge issue and works on the same basis as its Southern Strategy, using race and class warfare to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Posted by: windrider | January 14, 2008 1:06 PM | Report abuse

One thing everybody misses because they are so busy listening to the illegal alien lobby is that to not want illegals here is NOT racism. It is nationalism, pure and simple. Most of the Mexicans who come here are actually nationalists in favor of Mexico. Why is it so wrong for Americans to be nationalist?

Posted by: DuBuri2000 | January 14, 2008 1:06 PM | Report abuse

"I am going to get a great job in the future and I am going to pay taxes and give much more to this country for helping me accomplish my dream."

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE!

Our workforce is already overeducated and there are not enough jobs for graduates now. What makes you think there will be enough jobs for you when you graduate. Oh, that's right, it's because you are not in touch with reality.

Combine the not-enough-jobs problem with the illegals-driving-down-the-cost-of-labor problem and anyone out there right now that's looking for a job can see that we, as a country, are royally screwed.

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Well, these issues really are unrelated. Let's take them one at a time.

I question whether polls are news. It's tempting for a news service to try to appear smarter than the others, but reporting poll data has two big problems. One: poll data, however inaccurate, can influence others - to take a candidate more or less seriously, to race to or not bother the polling booth, and more. It purturbs the process. Two: reporting polls displaces real coverage of the candidates. What do they believe? What are their positions on real issues? Polls, along with all the other process stories we wade through have all but masked the real news.

As for illegal immigration, let's remember that it is, in fact, "illegal". Further, we know that as a whole illegals drain more from our economy than they produce. Yes, some are good people, but that's not the issue. The issue is the legality, economic impact and social impact of illegal immigration.

We are a county of laws. If it's appropriate, let's change the laws; until then, let's enforce them. Doing less is unfair to all of us.

Posted by: dthop | January 14, 2008 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Reading these comments makes me wonder if any of you know the history of your country. America was always made greater by immigrants coming to enhance this land. Your hate for Mexicans shows you do not know that the Irish, Poles, Germans, Italians all went through the same hate and discrimination. They all got told to swim back home and stay out. And they all became fine Americans. Remember, any one who is not 100% american indian is a decendant of an immigrant family that took their chances in America. Shark

Posted by: Shark | January 14, 2008 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Perhaps we should look at why so many illegal immigrants cross the border from Mexico. Their plight of low wages and lack of jobs is also attributed to the economic policies of the US, particularly free trade policies pushed through NAFTA and elsewhere that sent American companies into Mexico and bankrupted Mexican companies replacing them with low paying jobs (e.g. all the offshoring outsourced jobs from the US) as well as small farmers (who now have to resort to working in the farms in the US).

Posted by: One voice | January 14, 2008 1:04 PM | Report abuse

If one were foolish enough to try to live in the EU or anywhere of one's choice without proper papers, then you cannot get defensive when discovered and required to return. That's part of the chance taken when undertaking illegal immigration. I am sorry that there are so many people here who have decided to do it that way. Also immigrants from central america should consider not riding around in convertibles with super size foreign flags prominently attached and displayed from the back of their automobile. If I were lucky enough to be able to live in any country of the EU, I wouldn't be so stupid as to ride, walk, or bicycle around the city waving the stars and stripes. Native persons observing my behavior would have every right to think that I should just take my sorry whatever...right back to where I came from and who could blame them? By the way, I'm not a republican.

Posted by: Marg01 | January 14, 2008 1:03 PM | Report abuse

It's interesting how Doug Feaver starts talking about illegal immigration, and then switches to using "immigrants" and "immigration", without the modifier. Let's just say that's sloppy "journalism", and not an attempt to deceive.

Regarding the linked article, Feaver is probably unaware that there have been dozens of highly similar articles printed about illegal alien students. These articles are basically just sales jobs for a certain piece of legislation (the DREAMAct). Because there have been so many, and because they're so very similar, the natural conclusion is that they were planted by one group or other.

For instance, here are two such articles compared side-by-side:

http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/003576.html

The linked article is a bit different, in that it doesn't promote the DREAMAct. However, it shares other things in common with the other articles.

If Feaver would like to do some real journalism, perhaps he could look into where that type of article comes from.

Posted by: LonewackoDotCom | January 14, 2008 1:02 PM | Report abuse

I SAY SEND ALL THE CAMEL JOCKIES BACK WHERE THEY BELONG. THEIR COUNTRY, WITH A WET BACK AND A MOON CRICKET UNDER EACH ARM.

Posted by: the prof. | January 14, 2008 1:01 PM | Report abuse

There is no humanly possible way to round up TWENTY MILLION people and throw them out of ANY country. Whether the borders are closed and secured is moot as long as laws exist that provide for the children of illegals to become US citizens. What decent parent wouldn't risk their life and liberty for their child? Once we take away this "freebie" law for immigrants, they will have a severely reduced desire in wanting to come AND STAY within US borders. Let's close the borders now, remove automatic citizenship for children born here (unless the child is born to CITIZENS of the US), and find a way to quickly naturalize, educate, and teach English to the 20 million that are already here.

Posted by: the fisch | January 14, 2008 1:01 PM | Report abuse

I SAY SEND ALL THE CAMEL JOCKIES BACK WHERE THEY BELONG. THEIR COUNTRY, WITH A WET BACK AND A MOON CRICKET UNDER EACH ARM.

Posted by: the prof. | January 14, 2008 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Get real. You can't build a fence from Coast to Coast. Sure, the corps would love it but Canadians have ladders, ropes, shovels etc...

Recall the only known terrorist came across at Wa.

Illegal immigration issue

Simple: National ID card far all. It would show driver history and link to a FED web site that when you swipe it The Fed site would show Pic and confirm to hire.
Repeat only diver history as your license now and then for hiring person goes to
FED site which only has pic of person and if can hire.

Illegal here now.

Give them a card and 5 years with no felony can apply for citizenship.

We can't afford the loss of these workers.

Posted by: Bill | January 14, 2008 12:57 PM | Report abuse

EVERY ONE INVOLVED IN THE MEDIA SUCKS
POLITICIANS SUCK
OUR ALLIES SUCK ESPECIALLY THE MUSLIM?ISLAMIC ONES
WAKE UP PEOPLE
STOP SHOPPING/BUYING BS & START THINKING

Posted by: Jb | January 14, 2008 12:54 PM | Report abuse

How can you punish kids for their parent's wrongdoing? I am one of those kids you are talking about. My parent brought me here at the age of 1 and I am 18 now. 17 years in this country which I consider to be my home and my country. I am patriotic and see myself as American in heart even though I don't a paper that says I am. I have not committed any crimes and I am currently attending college. I am going to get a great job in the future and I am going to pay taxes and give much more to this country for helping me accomplish my dream. I don't believe in amnesty but at least give those that deserve a chance.

Posted by: John | January 14, 2008 12:54 PM | Report abuse

Amnesty is a good thing. So is Liberty. Almost ALL "illegal immigrants" were, are, and will be invited to work in the US by US businessmen. So don't get too flustered about the immigrants. It's not their faults that American jobs have gone offshore it's the Neo-con republicrats. By making this a hot topic it empowers those morons in Washington to write expensive IOU's to the FED for more "technology" to stop immigrants from coming. But it will never ever ever work!

Posted by: george | January 14, 2008 12:53 PM | Report abuse

Illegal immigration would not exist if cheap labor it provides was not sought for by American business. It's not that hard to shut the borders completely: the Soviet Union was doing it very efficiently for the most part of the XX century with the borders 10 times longer than the US-Mexican (the flow was in the opposite direction, but it's not essential). The fact that Washington has been silent about this problem for decades means one thing: there's a powerful lobby that doesn't want it to stop, period. You people can discuss it on top of your lungs as long as you want, but you just don't get it: illegal immigration is not a natural disaster, or an unfortunate chain of events, it is a government policy, and the liberals have nothing to do with it!

Posted by: Alexander | January 14, 2008 12:51 PM | Report abuse


Absolutely no illegal immigrant, they drain our resources.

Posted by: Tran | January 14, 2008 12:51 PM | Report abuse

I will be voting for ron paul who remembers the constitution and rule of law. All illegals need to be thrown out of our country. And along with the illegals toss out the u.s. chamber of commerce, who actually has been promoting this onslaught of illegal invasion. Who wants to give them amnesty. And we the people have been paying for it with our jobs, and taxes. Back to RULE OF LAW!

Posted by: mcj | January 14, 2008 12:50 PM | Report abuse

Obviously, there should be stricter immigration control. Just think what a better place this would be if Columbus and all those other nasty European people had been stopped.
It's also obvious that polls are good. Why else would Congress allow poll takers to be excluded from the national No Call List? And if media outlets don't have polls, they might have to report on what's actually happening. Oh my.

Posted by: David | January 14, 2008 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Unpleasant...? What's so unpleasant about that response? Other than the reality of the situation that is.

Posted by: LittleOlMe | January 14, 2008 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Diengenous libs are bending over backwards to kiss black butt, while playing the nasty race card, both directions, for their political gain. Hypocritcal Demos are self-destructing before our very eyes. Clear thinking blacks will wake up soon, tired of being used, and will join the GOP.-----Meanwhile, those who consider illegal immigration to be the major problem it is, will reject McCain.

Posted by: V Racer | January 14, 2008 12:48 PM | Report abuse

If we can't legally require the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS to speak English on the job, how can we really delude ourselves that anything substantial with be done about their other more damaging illegal acts--such as entering our country illegally and stealing soc. sec. #'s?? What a Farce!

Posted by: simplyillegal | January 14, 2008 12:48 PM | Report abuse

close my borders...reduce my taxes...fix my country's reputation...

Posted by: bob123 | January 14, 2008 12:46 PM | Report abuse

Wright Island Model Sustained Immigration is genetic replacement immigration.

http://oldatlanticlighthouse.wordpress.com/2007/06/30/population-genetics-island-model-one-way-migration/

"We investigated various cases of the island model with stochastic migration. If the population is infinite, the immigrants have a fixed gene frequency and the alleles are neutral, the gene frequency on the island converges to that of the immigrants."

Genetics. 1979 January; 91(1): 163-176.


The Island Model with Stochastic Migration

Thomas Nagylaki

Department of Biophysics and Theoretical Biology, The University of Chicago, 920 East 58th Street, Chicago, Illinois 60637

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=12139


The theorem doesn't say you get a mixture of old and new. The theorem says you get complete replacement of the old by the new. The old goes extinct. This is pure genetic replacement. It doesn't matter if there is an intermediate mixture or not. Over time, the initial stock is replaced completely. Promises of a mixture are false.

Posted by: Old Atlantic | January 14, 2008 12:45 PM | Report abuse

I think the press should just SHUT UP and let the the candidate talk for themselves. And the reason people have now opinion about "illegal" immigrant and not the War is because the press is talking about it more. Press should only REPORT and provide no extra comments. Specially they have no business endorsing anyone. PRESS should not sponsor "debates" either, if you call Fox "new" press.

Posted by: markux | January 14, 2008 12:43 PM | Report abuse

Regarding the polls: the polls are only as good as the the people reporting them. If you are listening to Fox then it's republican bias ... if you are listening to CNN it's Dem bias... so you have to learn to ignore them, think for yourself and vote with your own conscious. period.

Regarding the illegals who continue to come into this country on a daily basis ... it has to stop being accepted as uncontrollable and start being managaged or we will not longer live in America, a land of immigrants from all over the world, we will instead live in The "new" Mexico, a land of a majority of hispanics who invaded our nation while we sat back and watched.

Posted by: norah k | January 14, 2008 12:42 PM | Report abuse

Todd, you appear to be the one who hates the United States since you seem to have a good deal of trouble handling the fact that patriotic Americans don't always have to agree with each other (or with you) and that the free exchange of ideas is one of the pillars upon which our democracy was built. The debate over immigration is not a matter of being for or against the "rule of law" but a debate about what that law should actually be. Laws in this country change over time.

Posted by: Dan | January 14, 2008 12:38 PM | Report abuse

I don't understand how Americans can be so passionate about the illegal immigration issue and at the same time support all the presidential candidates who can only be expected to be *soft* on the issue ?

Posted by: Brent | January 14, 2008 12:36 PM | Report abuse

A lot of Republicans are very hostile to illegal immigrants, but we should be thankful that most of them are here. If it wasn't for illegal immigrants, America would soon realize that it's standard of living is falling. Republicans should be more compassionate because one day their children or grandchildren may be sneaking across the border into Mexico to look for a job. They should ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?"

Posted by: hamishdad | January 14, 2008 12:36 PM | Report abuse

maryjoe525 wrote:" "What a wonderful young man. We are lucky to have him. It is a joy to read about fellow Americans behaving honorably."

Too bad this young man couldn't have behaved honorably from the start by getting a visa BEFORE he came here at age 15. Now, just what are his siblings back in Mexico going to do? Jump the border and hope for someone to get them visas after they're here? Or, apply to come legally from the start?

Posted by: Anonymous | January 14, 2008 12:26 PM | Report abuse

You guys should stick to printing the facts and leave your biased opinions to yourselves. I am sick of it and sick of your prejudged and premeditated usage of these news articles in working to sway the minds of the public, as though we are sheep following cowardice of your pen. The more you negatively speak of one particular candidate, the appealing they look. It is human nature. So knock it off and put some intelligence into your work and some positive energy..........

Posted by: Sher | January 14, 2008 12:23 PM | Report abuse

Hopefully with the help of bloggers enough Americans will become educated to not trust the media, the polls, the biased opinions that artfully hide in a 'news story'.

If the media wants to divide America even further, I think they are running out of time. I don't think we can get much more split. Which means one of two things will happen:

1.) America will wake up and unite against the media machine, becoming the strong independent nation we were founded as.

2.) America will implode, beyond repair, and our citizens will suffer. We can only tell stories of how great our country 'used' to be.

Posted by: Jeff | January 14, 2008 12:14 PM | Report abuse

Your poll results state "Americans voted for..." well, I certainly did not vote in your poll and I do NOT "vote for..." whatever result you state! And I damn sure am an AMERICAN!

Posted by: 61WHITEFEMALE | January 14, 2008 12:14 PM | Report abuse

Predictably, your left-wing hatred for America, white people and the English language spurs you to deride as racist anyone who disagrees with your opinion.

When will you "journalists" comprehend that your bigoted, deluded hatred for Americans is part of the reason your subscription levels are falling faster than proof of global warming?

Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between opposition to ceding our country to invaders and hating ALL immigrants, including LEGAL immigrants?

Clearly you have no logical basis for your arguments; hence you can only support homeland invaders by calling people who support THE RULE OF LAW as racists.

Perhaps if you would open your mind and open your heart you would learn something.

Posted by: Todd | January 14, 2008 11:53 AM | Report abuse

All these polls are, are a mechanism used by the media to control our thinking and lead the public around by their collective noses.
If you looked hard enough, you could actually find a poll claiming Ron Paul solidly in the lead. Give us a break!

Posted by: Lary | January 14, 2008 11:50 AM | Report abuse

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