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Posted at 5:56 PM ET, 12/ 3/2010

Congress should pass the DREAM Act

By Ezra Klein

Here's what the DREAM Act does: If you're an illegal immigrant who can show proof that you were brought to this country while still a child and have lived here since, you can apply for a "conditional" status that becomes permanent if you graduate from college or serve in the military. If you don't meet either condition within six years, your status is revoked and you can be deported.

This makes sense on a moral level, as whatever you think of people who decide to illegally immigrate to America, their 10-year-olds are rarely consulted. It makes sense on an economic level, as it means more educated workers (we want this Harvard graduate to stay in the country, for instance), and on a national security level, as it gives children of illegal immigrants a strong incentive to join the military.

But lots of things seem to make sense until you talk to the experts. So what does Gene Block, chancellor of UCLA, think? He's for it.

There are a lot of difficult calls to be made when it comes to economic growth and immigration. But this isn't one of them. We need more educated workers, more enlistees and fewer people living in the shadows and contributing less than they otherwise could. The DREAM Act helps on all fronts.

By Ezra Klein  | December 3, 2010; 5:56 PM ET
Categories:  Immigration  
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Comments

Amen

Posted by: andrewbaron78 | December 3, 2010 5:58 PM | Report abuse

no mention of ex ante incentive effects?

Posted by: stantheman21 | December 3, 2010 6:12 PM | Report abuse

This is the Congressional Oath of Office, "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same..."

This is a quote from a United States Congressman, "I have only one loyalty, and that's to the immigrant community. " U.S. Rep. Luis Gutierrez on November, 2010.

Posted by: mayaying | December 3, 2010 6:14 PM | Report abuse

The Migration Policy Institute estimates that 2.1 million illegal aliens could be immediately eligible for legalization should the DREAM Act pass into law.

Not one of these bills has been reviewed by the Judiciary Committee, nor have Senators been provided with a (CBO) Congressional Budget Office score. Senator Jeff Sessions has stated this is a cunning game that makes it not viable for members of this body, and their constituents, to properly evaluate and consider the legislation prior to a vote. It is an abuse of the process and on that basis alone members ought to oppose cloture. Sen. David Vitter (R-La.) also contacted the Congressional Budget Office today regarding (CBO) score of either the House version of the DREAM Act (H.R.1751) or the most recent Senate version (S.3992). Sen. Vitter's request is similar to one made last night by Ranking Member of the House Immigration Subcommittee Steve King (R-Iowa) says just the DREAM Act could cost as much as $20 billion dollars.

On Dec. 2, 2010 Sen. Jeff Sessions addressed a letter to his Senate colleagues urging them to oppose the DREAM Act.
Sen. Sessions also discussed the weaknesses of the DREAM Act by highlighting:

• the ability for individuals who qualify for the DREAM Act to sponsor their family members for (LPR) Lawful Permanent Resident or Legal Permanent Resident status once they (students) themselves have received LPR status; Years of chain migration has become a costly experiment for US taxpayers, as afterwards the sponsors have neglected their financial responsibilities and their charges have had to rely on support of welfare programs.

• individuals with criminal histories can qualify for the DREAM Act amnesty, and the Secretary of Homeland Security has the authority to waive eligibility requirements;

• DREAM Act applicants receive an immediate stay of removal proceedings, creating a safe harbor for illegal aliens facing deportation; and

• DREAM Act applicants don't need to complete college or fulfill their military service in order to receive LPR status.

So here is the full text of the Dream Act (S. 3827: Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act of 2010:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-3827

Call your Three Members of Congress through the Capitol Hill switchboard: 202-224-3121to stops this immigration travesty. Liberal-Democrats do not want the Dream Act to be reviewed.

A full mass Amnesty as according to the Heritage Foundation, is estimated at 2.6 Trillion dollars. Go to the Heritage Foundation website and it will explain with graphs, projections and text by the reputable in-depth analysis by Robert Rector and future costs of a ever encroaching possibility of mass AMNESTY.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/06/amnesty-will-cost-us-taxpayers-at-least-26-trillion

Posted by: infinity555 | December 3, 2010 6:16 PM | Report abuse

There are several versions of this Act, and they have crucial differences. The latest version disallows anyone from gaining status for their relatives if they are legalized through this program, which is an improvement. Here's the big problems:

1)The military does not want these individuals, nor according to polls of illegals, do they want to join the military.

2) You are thinking of on-campus type colleges, when in reality there is nothiing to stop them from sending money to diploma mills online. Depending on which version of the bill, they can or cannot borrow money in the same way as other prospective students. There are no specific enforcement mechanisms set up in the bill, nor will additional funds be authorized for it. In all likelihood, no investigations will ever be conducted.

3) You think they HAVE to graduate high school, but that is unlikely. The 9th circuit recently struck down Arizona's law requiring actual proof of citizenship for voter registration. The court said simply swearing that you are is enough. It is unlikely that this law will require more than individuals swear that they have completed high school.

4) The most recent version does not require graduation from college, only attending for a set number of years.

From Politico:


"The DREAM Act would provide a path to legalization for immigrants who were brought to the country illegally as children, if they go to college or serve in the military for at least two years.

The latest version, filed by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) and Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) late Tuesday night, would bar illegal immigrants from receiving in-state college tuition; drops the age of eligibility to 29 from 34; would not grant permanent legal status to anyone for at least 10 years; would restrict eligibility for those who commit certain misdemeanor crimes; and would limit individuals from being able to sponsor family members for U.S. citizenship, among other changes.

Those who receive conditional legal status under the DREAM Act also would be ineligible for Medicaid, food stamps and other government-funded benefits.

Among other requirements that remained in the latest version of the bill: Immigrants must have entered the U.S. before age 16, lived in the country at least five consecutive years before the bill’s enactment; been admitted to a college or earned a high-school diploma or GED certificate.

Under the latest version, DREAM Act applicants would be ineligible if they have committed one felony or three misdemeanors; engaged in voter or marriage fraud; or abused a student visa, among other offenses."


So no Ezra, you screwed up the details again as usual. You don't have to actually graduate with a 4 year degree under this act.

Remember, only between 55,000, and 65,000 illegals actually graduate high school each year. If proof is required, almost no one will be benefited.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 3, 2010 6:56 PM | Report abuse

It is really sad to deny these young people a future in our great country. I truly cannot believe why republicans don't see the potential these students have for joining our armed forces. To see our secretary of defense completely ignored by the GOP demonstrates how our govt ignores the real enemy out there in Afghanistan, Iraq North Korea and I could keep going forever. Discussing simple matters GOP have no idea about while recruits are urgently needed in America.Now we see all this great potential wasted while these truly great individuals looking for a simple chance for a better life prefer to go to France and join the army there.

Posted by: George72 | December 3, 2010 7:11 PM | Report abuse

Democrats are trying to push another huge blank check on U.S. citizens after the "health reform" that still is a blank check. These people are abusing the citizens of this country. Enemy governments are known to flood counterfeit currency into an economy to destabilize it. What do you think the open border chaos that cost in excess of $100 Billion a year is doing to us? I am a Democrat saying this.

Posted by: vickie105 | December 3, 2010 7:15 PM | Report abuse

george72:

You are misinformed. The Act requires a 2 year active duty committment, but that would be part of a larger 4-8 year one, versus a two year "committment" to a diploma mill online. Few will be joining the military based on this act.

Btw how did they become "great individuals"?

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying about France.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 3, 2010 7:30 PM | Report abuse

54465446:

Then it is my believe that you have far more knowledge than our secretary of state, the president himself and all branches of the armed forces.

About France, when I traveled with the army to a base in Djibouti, we did joined exercises with our fellow French soldiers. We received training by the French Foreign Legion, a formidable Elite military composed of foreigners, which I truly respect. Imagine the same idea on our Army but on a bigger scale, I am more than sure we would have far more people joining our ranks than in the French Armed forces.

Posted by: George72 | December 3, 2010 7:55 PM | Report abuse

geroge:

Well thank you for the explanation. The military does not want the Dream Act individuals. There are already paths to citizenship through the military, as you are probably/possibly aware.

The President's motivation as well as the Secretary of State is political not military.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 3, 2010 8:28 PM | Report abuse

As an American, a homeowner, and taxpayer, I support the DREAM Act. I am not alone, supporters of the DREAM Act include Republican-former Secretary of State Colin Powell, The College Board, Secretary of Defense Richard Gates, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis, Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano, DREAM Act co-authors Republican Senator Richard Lugar and Democratic Senator Richard Durbin, and many college presidents across the country.

In 1982, the US Supreme Court decided in Plyler vs. Doe, that undocumented immigrant children have a right to a public school education from kindergarten through the 12th grade. The Court reasoned that these children were brought here through no fault of their own. Furthermore, this country does not punish children for the actions of their parents. The Court asserted that to deny these children an education is to condemn them to a permanent underclass status.

In classrooms across the country undocumented immigrant students are indistinguishable from lawful permanent residents and US citizens. These students are products of American schools and communities. In 1985, in a class action lawsuit Leticia A. vs. UC Regents & CSU Trustees, a state court ruled that undocumented immigrant students could be assessed state fees and receive state sources of need based financial aid. Republican President Ronald Reagan then signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. As a result of the Leticia A ruling in state court, and President Reagan's legalization program, thousands of previously undocumented immigrant California students gained access to higher education and a pathway to lawful permanent residency and US citizenship. These formerly undocumented immigrant students are doctors, lawyers, law enforcement officers and professionals of every sort. As such they pay taxes, serve societal needs with compassion as highly qualified professionals, and are engaged in civic affairs in our communities.

These Leticia A. Alumni of the 1980’s are living proof that the passage of the DREAM Act is the right thing to do.

Dennis Lopez
Riverside, CA

Posted by: USCitizenDREAMActSupporter | December 3, 2010 8:36 PM | Report abuse

I want to know when Congress is going to pass the Bonn Unlawful Immigration Reform Act (BUIRA)? If you are not familiar with it yet, you can find the links to the main website on this old blog www.xelanbonn.com

I would love to see WP and others do news stories on it because that is the bill we should be trying to pass and debating.

BUIRA permanently ends illegal immigration in 12 months with no loopholes, no amnesty, no mass round-ups, no cost to taxpayers, and best of all, cuts $100 billion off our budget without changing our level of services. Win win for law and order and cutting the national debt at the same time, so why is it such a secret when it's been in Congress for weeks?

Posted by: teresapatriot | December 3, 2010 9:04 PM | Report abuse

I want to know when Congress is going to pass the Bonn Unlawful Immigration Reform Act (BUIRA)? If you are not familiar with it yet, you can find the links to the main website on this old blog www.xelanbonn.com

I would love to see WP and others do news stories on it because that is the bill we should be trying to pass and debating.

BUIRA permanently ends illegal immigration in 12 months with no loopholes, no amnesty, no mass round-ups, no cost to taxpayers, and best of all, cuts $100 billion off our budget without changing our level of services. Win win for law and order and cutting the national debt at the same time, so why is it such a secret when it's been in Congress for weeks?

Posted by: teresapatriot | December 3, 2010 9:06 PM | Report abuse

US citizen:

Powell's remarks are curious:

"Fifty percent of our minority kids are not finishing high school. We’ve got to invest in education. We should use the DREAM Act as one way to do it."

The Pew Hispanic Center states the following:


"Just one-in-ten Hispanic high school dropouts has a General Educational Development (GED) credential, widely regarded as the best “second chance” pathway to college, vocational training and military service for adults who have not graduated from high school.

The relatively low level of GED credentialing among Hispanic high school dropouts is especially notable because Hispanics have a much higher high school dropout rate than do blacks or whites. Some 41% of Hispanics ages 20 and older in the United States do not have a regular high school diploma, versus 23% of comparably aged blacks and 14% of whites.

Among Hispanics, there are significant differences between the foreign born and the native born in high school diploma attainment rates and GED credentialing rates. Some 52% of foreign-born Latino adults are high school dropouts, compared with 25% of the native born. And among Hispanic dropouts, some 21% of the native born have a GED, compared with just 5% of the foreign born.

Hispanics are the nation’s largest minority group; they make up 47 million, or 15%, of the population of the United States. As of 2008, there were 29 million Hispanics ages 20 and older; of this group, 41% are native born and 59% are foreign born."

So in effect and Powell is asking us to pass an Act that will have no effect on the community it is supposed to help, due to lack of eligibility. How does this make sense?

Here's the answer, no one will actually be required to have passed high school, only to swear that they have, in keeping with the ruling of the 9th Circuit this fall.

Also Dennis Lopes writes:

"These formerly undocumented immigrant students are doctors, lawyers, law enforcement officers and professionals of every sort. As such they pay taxes, serve societal needs with compassion as highly qualified professionals, and are engaged in civic affairs in our communities."


Well, I'm sure that's correct, but the Dream Act doesn't REQUIRE any of that to apply.

It really has quite minimal standards, some residency, HS diploma, two years of college. Thats' it. Those things MAY lead to the above but there's no direct connection.


Posted by: 54465446 | December 3, 2010 9:29 PM | Report abuse

The WaPo's Kaplan Higher Education diploma mill is going to make big bucks offering low value educations to high school dropouts.

Six years after we pass this we are going to be asked for another 20 year extension for all these poor people who couldn't juggle having children, studying for the GED, working, taking English as A Foreign Language, and taking remedial college algebra.

There probably aren't enough legitimate University seats for all these people to fake studying.

Posted by: kevin9 | December 3, 2010 10:54 PM | Report abuse

MYTH: The Dream Act is intended for "children" of illegal aliens that have graduated from a U.S. High School, arrived in the U.S as a minor and and have been in the country continuously for at least five years.

FACT: Most experts agree that nearly 80% of all illegal aliens would be eligible for the Dream Act since the age limit is 35 and it's not possible to determine how long an illegal has been here, if they attended high school here or even verify their age. Less than 1% of the millions expected to apply for this amnesty will legitimately meet the requirements.

Posted by: hunter340 | December 4, 2010 4:18 AM | Report abuse

hunter:

With you , but one correction, The latest version lowers the age limit to 30, but who knows which version will be submitted at the last moment.

Also agreed that without a birth certificate, no meaningful age verification can take place.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 4, 2010 11:25 AM | Report abuse

Just what we need. More competition for jobs, in the middle of 10 percent unemployment (that the government admits to; the real figure is closer to 20 percent.)

Let's start with finding a DREAM act amnesty recipient who will do Ezra Klein's job for less money.

Posted by: MaryJessel | December 4, 2010 11:36 AM | Report abuse

How does a simplistic Polyanna moron like this get a job as a columist? Children my ass. One version of the Dream Act hands amnesty over to "children" up to 36 years of age. And of course, the idiot who wrote this fails to mention that the "children" target of this amnesty can then sponsor in their mother, father, sisters, brothers, grandma, grandpa, etc. from the toilet of Mexico.

Every liberal S.O.B. favoring the Dream Act should bring their white asses into Arizona and live with the consequences of a Mexican invasion, so they can experience seeing their communities turning into Sonoran outhouses. I am sick of well-to-do mongoloids like this writer spewing their badge of humanitarianism while living completely removed from the consequences. Give me a baseball bat and pitch me Ezra's head.

Posted by: ZOO1 | December 4, 2010 12:32 PM | Report abuse

Whoa, that is one angry dude. I disagree with the words "mongoloid" and "humanitarian." Neither is appropriate. The motivation of Klein and the administration is to change the demographic of the electorate. Period. That way, and only that way, will they stay in power long enough to get as much of your money as they want.

Posted by: truck1 | December 4, 2010 1:29 PM | Report abuse

I cannot fathom the unbelievable cruelty of the liberal elite in pushing for taxpayer-funded freebies for huge numbers of foreign lawbreakers while law-abiding, tax-paying, American citizens are suffering so much during this time of massive bankrupcy and unemployment.

Why do they hate us so much? Don't we faithfully hand over huge portions of our paychecks every April 15?

It's time we started charging the liberal elite with treason and acting accordingly. A few prominent members of the treason lobby in the dock and they'll soon get the message that they'd better start putting Americans first, or else.

Posted by: MaryJessel | December 4, 2010 2:47 PM | Report abuse

Re: "The military does not want these individuals"

What a lie. The Pentagon is in favor of the Dream Act. The original version of the Dream Act didn't even include military service until the Pentagon lobbied for it.

Posted by: sunnyday1 | December 4, 2010 3:29 PM | Report abuse

The Congressional Budget Office has found that DREAM will save 1.4 billion dollars over the next 10 years.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/119xx/doc11991/s3992.pdf

Also, DREAM-eligible students aren't getting anything free. They won't qualify for financial aid (which means they pay everything they spend on school out of pocket, unlike most citizens who have financial aid) and they scrimp and save in ways most Americans can't even imagine - sleeping on floors and in libraries, working two or three jobs, taking buses to school.

Age verification is pretty accurate - INS has a terrifyingly comprehensive biometric system to make sure those naturalized are healthy and of age.

Finally, the requirements are much more restrictive than the astro-turfing liars on this comment thread realize: Age limit is at 30, residency for 5 years, good moral character (defined in immigration law: http://www.pappaslaw.com/index.php/citizenship/good-moral-character/) and serving two years in the military or in college - again, without financial aid.

DREAM is painfully moderate, painfully sensible, and is the complete opposite of a liberal power grab. it saves money, rewards hard work, has strict restrictions and time limits, and encourages military service - I mean, it's essentially the most conservative, anti-handout, pro-work immigration bill I've seen in my lifetime.

Of course, bashing immigrants ranks higher on the GOP's to-do list than actually making or saving money. Pandering and xenophobia FTW.

Ezra, thanks for the column; however, I'm sure the DREAMers would appreciate it if you used "undocumented" instead of "illegal." The branding of human beings as "illegal," while being a fallacy also gins up the dehumanizing, disgusting blather thrown up in this thread and invites us to mistreat and disrespect those who've committed a civil offense and not a criminal one.

As Elie Wiesel asked, how can a human being be "illegal?"

Posted by: spsook | December 4, 2010 3:34 PM | Report abuse

Re: "Some 41% of Hispanics ages 20 and older in the United States do not have a regular high school diploma."

They are not dropping out of US schools at that rate. If a 40 year old immigrates here without a high school diploma, he is classified as a "dropout." These statistics reflect upon the school system in their country of origin.

Posted by: sunnyday1 | December 4, 2010 3:38 PM | Report abuse

Re: "Every liberal S.O.B. favoring the Dream Act should bring their white asses into Arizona and live with the consequences of a Mexican invasion.."

Arizona is a toilet bowl because the state is run by incompetent Republicans like Jan Brewer, Russell Pearce, Jon Kyl and John McCain. It's already the Mississippi of the Southwest, and soon it will be even worse than the real Mississippi. And you guys deserve it.

Posted by: sunnyday1 | December 4, 2010 3:48 PM | Report abuse

spsook wrote:

"Age verification is pretty accurate - INS has a terrifyingly comprehensive biometric system to make sure those naturalized are healthy and of age."

Your description is completely inaccurate, perhaps based on something you read somewhere. Please provide a valid reference, if you have one. I understand that you support the legislation and that is a morally defensible position. However nothing you have written has in any way challenged or changed what we have written.

Lack of financial aid is one thing, but they WILL be eligible for student loans. You think there will be some crushing financial burden, but there won't be. Look around the web at the costs of for profit college and diploma mills. It will be about $5,000-$10,000 for the cost of those two years. Less than the price of a good used car.

As I posted before few are expected to actually choose the military, and there are existing paths to citizenship already in the military.

We're not bashing immigrants by refusing to accede to bad legislation.

Finally, quoting Wiesel is cheap pathos in a debate where it doesn't belong. It's not the person that is illegal, but the location of the person. If you came home one day and found someone building a shelter in your backyard, you'd damn well tell the police that they were there illegally without your permission. It would be good in fact if ALL of the major supporters of this legislation woke up tomorrow with people living in their garage. I would love to be the police officer , so I can tell you that they're not trespaasing, they're just living on your property in an undocumented way. You can imagine how that would turn out.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 4, 2010 5:15 PM | Report abuse

sunnyday wrote:

"They are not dropping out of US schools at that rate. If a 40 year old immigrates here without a high school diploma, he is classified as a "dropout." These statistics reflect upon the school system in their country of origin."

If you are correct (I used Pew because of their reputation for accuracy. They don't make the distinction that you ask for) that they failed to finish schooling in their country of origin, how does that affect this debate?

Posted by: 54465446 | December 4, 2010 6:03 PM | Report abuse

sspsook wrote:

"The Congressional Budget Office has found that DREAM will save 1.4 billion dollars over the next 10 years."

True enough as far as it goes, but don't you think you should quote the next paragraph too in fairness? You know, the one that states the Act would INCREASE deficits by 3-4 times that amount in the following ten year period!

"Although the legislation would not have a large impact on deficits over the 2011-2020
period, the eventual conversion of some of the conditional nonimmigrants to legal
permanent resident (LPR) status after 2020 would lead to significant increases in spending
for the federal health insurance exchanges, Medicaid, and the Supplemental Nutrition
Assistance Program (SNAP). Pursuant to section 311 of the Concurrent Resolution on the
Budget for Fiscal Year 2009 (S. Con. Res. 70), CBO estimates that the bill would increase
projected deficits by more than $5 billion in at least one of the four consecutive 10-year
periods starting in 2021."

Finally I know that you're parroting others with your post. However if you want to be taken seriously, you should really refer to an existing agency. There is no such thing as INS, and hasn't been for the past 8 years. You are referring to the BCIS, and more specifically ICE. Accuracy makes would make your case more credible.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 4, 2010 6:17 PM | Report abuse

The Dream Act is not amnesty, the Dream Act's fifth version will not include financial aid, it will not include government grants, and finally it will not allow sponsoring of immediate family members, please people understand. Also keep in mind that the age was lowered to 29 instead of the original 35. All applicants will have to have proof of early education in the US, going back to Elementary, Middle, and High School to request official paperwork. I see it very hard for anyone else qualifying, I agree the previous versions of the Act included the sponsoring part, which was going to allow that, but not anymore the 5th version is extremely hard for anyone else to qualify or commit fraud. Another thing can just be; The Racism towards Hispanics that many people have. I support the Dream Act.

Posted by: hendelap | December 4, 2010 6:21 PM | Report abuse

hendelap wrote:

"All applicants will have to have proof of early education in the US, going back to Elementary, Middle, and High School to request official paperwork"

Now you're just making things up out of thin air, since there is nothing in the Act that would require that individuals have even attended either elementary or middle school in this country.

In fact all the act states is that the individual must prove eligibility by a preponderance of the evidence. In other words, Janet Napolitano's office will decide what is sufficient. I think you know how that will turn out.

Can't blame you for trying with the disinformation campaign though.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 4, 2010 7:28 PM | Report abuse

I agree that we should not use the term "illegal" to refer to a human being. The more precise term would be "foreign lawbreaker."

Posted by: MaryJessel | December 5, 2010 11:57 AM | Report abuse

If there are exceptional students who were brought to our country illegally, let's deal with them on the individual basis.

Dream Act is another blanket amnesty. "The comprehensive immigration reform" didn't work, because we protested, so now there is an attempt to break it down to smaller pieces.

A big chunk wouldn't go through our throats, so let's small - spoon fed us. Sorry, but no chunk of amnesty is small enough to digest.

No Dream act.

Deal with the exceptional students on the individual basis.

Posted by: wggodek | December 6, 2010 7:44 AM | Report abuse

Is it any wonder why everyone from around the world does not take our immigration laws seriously? We look like the biggest push overs in the world as far as our immigration laws are concerned. Our government is too lazy to secure our borders and now are too lazy to enforce our laws. Take names and numbers of anyone, whether republican or democrat who does not choose to finally start enforcing our immigration laws. The time for change is now. Enforce our immigration laws now and forever.

Posted by: Edie3 | December 6, 2010 8:24 AM | Report abuse

I used to support the DREAM act for what it would do legally if enacted, but I think now I support it solely because it enrages such a wide swath of fearful bigots. Any law that brings such cowards out of the woodwork is worth support, regardless of what it says. What patriots you all are, attacking children. How brave.

Posted by: andrewbaron78 | December 6, 2010 1:11 PM | Report abuse

What patriots you all are, attacking children. How brave.
---
Kind of cowardly to use children as the face of yet another backdoor amnesty, don't you think?

If they had any honor at all they'd go home and try to fix their own countries to be better places to live in, now that they are grown up and have received a free K-12 education, courtesty of unwilling U.S. taxpayers.

Posted by: MaryJessel | December 6, 2010 2:27 PM | Report abuse

andrewbaron:

Invective is always good. Do you have any factual arguments to make in ADDITION to the invective?

Posted by: 54465446 | December 6, 2010 3:46 PM | Report abuse

Mr. K: Your advocacy for amnesty would carry more weight IF 1) we were in a full employment economy; 2) the welfare roles were near zero; 3) NO food stamps were necessary; 4) the highschool (then college) graduation rates in the U.S.S.A. were near 100%; 5) American citizens were given preference over illegals. Since all of the above are pipe dreams, bring the 'dream act' around again when all of the ablove points are fact.

Posted by: IQ168 | December 6, 2010 4:19 PM | Report abuse

@ MaryJessel: The DREAM Act is not a 'backdoor amnesty', it is a specifically written law that would do specific things, namely help the children of undocumented immigrants who were brought to the U.S. by no choice of their own to have some semblance of a decent life in the only country they know. Attacks on the legislation using a bunch of tired meaningless terms like 'amnesty', and calling people 'illegals'(which you don't, but which plenty of the people I refer to do) is thus an attack on the children who would benefit from the law. And as for their free education, I'm a taxpayer and I'm more than willing to provide kids with an education. So not all taxpayers agree with you, which means you probably shouldn't speak for them as one big group.

@54465446: Yeah, there are plenty of actual arguments, including the very basic one Ezra outlines in his post. There's the argument made by military leaders that the DREAM act would help the military. There's the argument made by countless representatives of the business and technology communities that all these kids out there getting half an education for the lack of some piece of paper is a giant waste of our country's brain power. And there's the argument that basic human decency holds that you don't punish children for the mundane transgressions of their parents. Problem is, the people I refer to in my post aren't interested in those arguments because they don't align with their fundamental fears and bigotries. I'll say in fairness that you don't seem to be among them , much as I disagree with your position.

Posted by: andrewbaron78 | December 6, 2010 5:41 PM | Report abuse

andrebaron:

Thanks for the reply. As you can see I've addressed some of those things in my above posts. If you're basing the argument on the moral equation, well then there is no counterpoise for that. You believe it or you don't.

We will meet again on another thread I hope.

Posted by: 54465446 | December 6, 2010 9:57 PM | Report abuse

If this Nightmare Act is approved there will be 2 million less American kids going to college over the next 4 years because the democrats want to give those slots to illegal aliens.

However we American citizens do get one thing out of it, the bill. Yup the democrats want the American taxpayer to subsidize their education while cheating our kids.

Why do democrats hate American kids so much???

Posted by: fury60 | December 7, 2010 2:24 PM | Report abuse

DREAM Act, is the Trojan horse amnesty program. Yes, please do make exception of exceptionally bright students, I am all for it. But do we really think these exceptionally bright students would only get a 2 year college. I would expect them to finish PhD or atleast a masters degree.

Posted by: srikanth_ | December 7, 2010 2:40 PM | Report abuse

@andrew baron: "And as for their free education, I'm a taxpayer and I'm more than willing to provide kids with an education. So not all taxpayers agree with you, which means you probably shouldn't speak for them as one big group."
--
Well, that means you can pay for my share and the share of all other taxpayers who are unwilling to pay for freebies for more illegal immigrants (above and beyond the numerous freebies they've already gotten.)

Let's see you put your money where your mouth is. Very easy to spend other peoples' money.

Posted by: MaryJessel | December 7, 2010 9:11 PM | Report abuse

Yes, pass the Dream Act (what a name for it!) and then we will be told it is unjust, unfair, unamerican, un-everything that all the ILLEGAL parents of these individual cannot qualify as citizens as well since their kids are citizens. Where is the justice for all the people who play by the rules? The Dream Act is just a Dem ploy to get more voters in their camp, or so they think.

Posted by: jfgerald | December 9, 2010 11:17 AM | Report abuse

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