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Posted at 10:31 AM ET, 03/ 1/2011

Unions polling well, Scott Walker polling poorly

By Ezra Klein


Are unions popular? Sort of. According to a new NYT/CBS poll, a third of Americans view them favorably, a quarter of Americans view them unfavorably, and the rest are undecided. But are efforts to attack unions popular? Not at all. The same poll showed Americans opposed weakening the bargaining rights of union members by an almost two-to-one margin.

Nor does the public like the idea of cutting the pay or benefits of union employees to balance budgets: 56 percent opposed that strategy, while 37 percent supported it. You can find the reason for that in another question: Only 26 percent of Americans think public employees are overpaid. Another 37 percent think their pay is about right, and a further 25 percent think their pay is too low.

And that's not an isolated survey. A Pew poll released yesterday found the unions winning over the public in Wisconsin -- they led Walker by 11 points.

I've actually been surprised at how well unions have held up in the polling. My gut instinct was that Scott Walker's campaign would be popular, and resistance to it would be a minority sentiment. My gut was very, very wrong. I wonder whether Scott Walker is beginning to get the creeping suspicion that his gut was wrong, too? A new PPP poll of Wisconsin shows that if the Badger State's voters could do it over again, they'd elect Walker's opponent as governor. The change in sentiment is almost entirely attributable to self-identified Republicans who are also union members. They voted for Walker in November, and now wish they hadn't. According to the PPP poll, if the election was run again, 10 percent of Republicans would defect from Walker, up from only 3 percent who voted Democratic in November.

Photo credit: On Task.

By Ezra Klein  | March 1, 2011; 10:31 AM ET
Categories:  Polls  
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Next: What the GAO thinks we can do without


Later in the TImes story it emerges that a disproportionate number of those surveyed had a union member, and even more strikingly, a state employee union member in the household. Though why the TImes revealed this information that casts doubt on the integrity of the survey is a mystery.

Posted by: truck1 | March 1, 2011 10:55 AM | Report abuse

Your gut is not reacting to the difference between 4% unemployment and anything over 8% when you are a wage earner supporting a family. There is no bottom. Your negotiating position has been wiped out along with your retirement fund and the equity in your house.

When that happens and you see politicians across the nation explicitly pitting workers against workers who the hell do you think you would support?

Posted by: BobFred | March 1, 2011 11:06 AM | Report abuse

why does it not surprise us that Centrist like Ezra felt in his gut that Union Busting would be popular, or that a Sensible Centrist like Ezra is surprised how popular collective bargaining really is?

Posted by: johninflorida | March 1, 2011 11:13 AM | Report abuse

The point is the survey is to indicate how unpopular the policy to end collective bargaining rights to unions. If the households in the survey family members who were members in unions then that would strengthen the argument for weaken it. Fact remains that of those surveyed in WI the oppose the policy. Maybe the Walker did not anticipate how deed those roots went.

Posted by: cassandra77477 | March 1, 2011 11:18 AM | Report abuse

Ezra, I think you're spending too much time in the beltway. Most Americans that aren't wrapped up in politics and talking points 24/7 don't believe gov't employees are societal leeches and aren't around people that constantly profess that gov't employees are welfare queens.

In the beltway, I imagine a desire to lay off large numbers of gov't employees is a very acceptable desire.

Posted by: will12 | March 1, 2011 11:25 AM | Report abuse

None of this will make a rat's ass of difference the next time there's an election. The same people who failed to show up at the polls this time will be MIA next time, while the older, social security and medicare collecting right-wing whites will show up in droves and the outcome will be the same. Scott Walker, John Boehner and so on have nothing to worry about.

Can't say the same for the rest of us, stuck in the boat with these people...

Posted by: FosterBoondoggle | March 1, 2011 11:53 AM | Report abuse

"In the beltway, I imagine a desire to lay off large numbers of gov't employees is a very acceptable desire."

I want you to think about the largest employer "inside the beltway," and try to determine whether or not this comment makes sense.

To the extent you hear this public employee hatred coming from DC, it is from jagweed Congressmen who ardently profess that they come from "outside the beltway." To the extent you don't hear the people of DC pushing back, it's because they have no representation. The general populace of the Capital area consists of public employees and those they support, and they are some of the brightest, hardest-working people I know.

Posted by: KBfromNC | March 1, 2011 11:56 AM | Report abuse

"I've actually been surprised at how well unions have held up in the polling. My gut instinct was that Scott Walker's campaign would be popular, and resistance to it would be a minority sentiment."

You, the entire DC press corps, the beltway, and the affluent more generally.

This is the reason unionbusting has worked so well. The people affected aren't powerful or rich or connected. And the people who are, who would normally be sympathetic to them, aren't. The propaganda campaign against unions has worked on its key audience: well-off and powerful insiders.

It's left to the people who are barely making ends meet, who don't know anyone important, who don't have the time or savvy to explain what's happening, to connect the dots and to do something about it. Unsurprisingly, they haven't been able to.

The beltway needs to stop relying upon rich people like the Kochs to tell them what "real Americans" think. You need to let go of your false belief that you are out of touch with the "real America" because you're an effete coastal liberal and they are in touch with the "real America" because they have similar entertainment and artistic taste as older white people.

The Real America doesn't like what's happened with wages and inequality. They don't like that both parents have to work, and they STILL can't afford to send the kids to college and buy a decent house and have a stable retirement.

The Kochs would like to pretend that people don't blame them for these things. You can accept that the beltway will never put poor or working class folks before the interests of the Kochs', but don't believe that it's because the American people don't want them to.

Don't be a sucker.

Posted by: theorajones1 | March 1, 2011 11:56 AM | Report abuse

KBfromNC, it's those same jagweed congressman that try so hard to get federal buildings in their own districts in order to create more local jobs!

The public employee hatred makes no sense, but political commentators and politicians love to hate.

Posted by: will12 | March 1, 2011 12:04 PM | Report abuse

hurray! good news!!!

if walker doesnt capitulate soon, imagine, a universal strike in his state.....and thousands marching with thousands of american flags.

then, when the faithful union workers are not present for work, because of walker's arrogant willfulness, and he sees the safety, efficiency and lifeblood of his state, completely compromised, maybe walker will have a new-found appreciation for the devoted workers in his state, and around the country.
walker must be thinking to himself:
"well, at the time, it seemed like a really good idea."
he, and his supporters must be a little frantic about now, realizing he has so grossly miscalculated the way events would unfold.

Posted by: jkaren | March 1, 2011 12:05 PM | Report abuse

here is an instructive gift for governor walker....
a cautionary tale:

Posted by: jkaren | March 1, 2011 12:13 PM | Report abuse

This is not surprising to me at all. No matter how the GOP trys to frame this one, the last group of people that the majority of Americans, who are overwhelmingly middle class, have a problem with are other middle class workers. Most Americans have no problem with shared sacrifice, but it has to be shared on both sides of the economic spectrum. In 2011, after everything that we have been through economically, you are not going to be able to convince most middle class people that they are the ones that need to make the sacrifices, while corporations and the wealthy continue to get tax breaks. No matter how many times you have an attractive person in a $3000 suit and bright white teeth on a TV screen tell people that tax cuts will "trickle down" to them, the majority of Americans are not buying it. We've been working in the "trickle down" theory in action for the last 30 years, we are a complete mess economically with the rich getting richer and the middle class staying right where they are. You can only promise that it will "trickle down" for so long before people begin to realize it's total bull. Here's a hint, corporations are all about profit (shocking, I know) and right now they are benefiting from corporate socialism and pocketing any savings or tax breaks that they get. The middle class is not their primary concern, profit is. And good for them, I suppose they don't have to be concerned with the middle class. At least not yet, because we still have enough money to buy some of their goods. It will be interesting to see what happens when we don't. The last few weeks of watching the mainstream media has been a shocking peek into how corporate and political reporters have become, not the opinion people on either side, but the ones that you actually think are still real journalists. The reporters actually believe the corporate talking points they are being spoonfed by corporations and their political allies. One thing that the mainstream news media coverage of the Wisconsin protests has taught me? How extremely out of touch the news media is when it comes to some issues. When the Tea Party conducted protests related to the Health Care debate, you saw tons of coverage related to the townhalls, tax day and general protesting. Why? Because corporations and their political allies pushed the mainstream "liberal" media to cover it. Convincing them that this was an important "uprising". The Tea Party could gather, 3000-4000 or even 10K-20K people at any given time and it was presented as this massive uprising of the "grassroots". Citizens protest in the hundreds of thousands across the Country and with the exception of opinion news on Fox and MSNBC, it's crickets from the national "liberal" media. This past few weeks has made me realize why exactly television news is set to become irrelevant over the next decade. They are simply so out of touch they are bound for failure. Did you see the lineups for the Sunday "news" shows last week? My god...

Posted by: jdrewd | March 1, 2011 12:20 PM | Report abuse

the ppp poll of 768 people seems a bit stilted right out of the gate when you see that the group of 768 people broke even in the 2010 election... One would think that a representative poll would start off with a group of people who voted as Wisconsin did in the 2010s.
I wonder, how, if you randomly call 768 people in Wisconsin, you end up with a test group that is so dtramatically different than Wisconsin, a more union family, a more public employee and more "I voted for Barrett" group than the general population of Wisconsin?
I'd bet that, that would all become clearer if you knew just exactly who paid for this poll. It also seems interesting, that a poll like this one, with it's clearly stilted test pool, can suddenly become national news.
I wonder if, at some level, the media is loving the public union bosses to death? If, instead of jumping in line and calling Walker villianous, these journalists and bloggers took an honest look at the situation and expressed the point of view of the folks who shoulder the burdens of the public unions rather than the folks who enjoy the largess of the public unions, maybe there would be positive changes, a long term good.
As it is now the media seems more like a pack of dogs trained to bark at anyone who offends the status quo. It would be refreshing if there were polls of the teachers asking whether or not they want to pay dues to their union masters? That would be blasphemous wouldn't it.
Actually asking the teachers how they feel about all of this, now that would be cool...
A.) "would you rather pay you're dues voluntarily or have them deducted whether you like it or not?"
B.) "would you like a yearly chance to re-affirm your union by voting for it?"
C.) how about this... "would you rather have the school board purchase your health insurance on the open market and use the $68-$143 million in annual savings to help the students become better citizens and help the school districts pay for the cost of the local schools? or do you prefer that the premiums are syphoned trhrough a union "insurance company" which charges more money for an equal amount of coverage and distributes huge profits to nameless faceless union bureaucrats?"
D.) "would you like to have the salary and benefit package of the head of the wisconsin education association be public information? and would you like to be made aware of any sort of multiple payroll scheme or multiple pension deal that she has arranged for herself?"
E.) "do you think that the head of the Wisconsin Afscme should make more money and recieve more benefits than the governor of the State?"..
I think that the polling by the union of the citizens must be continuous (why wouldn't it be, they've got more money than God?)... they must be asking... "how do you feel about the dem state senators fleeing the state to protect the union bosses?"... and since we're not hearing about that I have to assume that the polling doesn't look favorable for them.

Posted by: Cheesy1959 | March 1, 2011 12:33 PM | Report abuse

This article is misleading it's readers. They only polled 900+ democrats. Be fair to your readers. Ezra lies !! Ezra lies !! LOL

Posted by: market4life | March 1, 2011 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Ezra is like many other liberals lately picking and reporting on his favorite polls that superficially seem to support his notions while ignoring other polls that paint a much different picture. Dig deeper even in these liberal biased polls and even these do not show the overall level support for unions in all their aspects that Ezra seems to imply. Democrats are oversampled in these polls, especially in the NYT/CBS poll.

Posted by: commonlogic | March 1, 2011 12:48 PM | Report abuse

I disagree regarding Ezra's role.
I don't think that his goal is to accurately report the national mood. I think his stuff is more like a weather vane showing which way the wind is blowing in the beltway itself, among a class of folks who get paid 100k to sip coffee and have lunch. The bureaucracy is not like the folks out in the hinterland and I think that Ezra is like the local reporter for the beltway's daily rhetoric.
It's almost uncanny how the stuff he points up becomes part of the media onslaught a few hours or a few days later.
Stuff like this poll, it's the eqivilent of mud thrown at a wall to see if anything sticks. Look at the comments, the folks who are defending the union bosses need rhetorical grist for their rumor mills and Ezra seems to know what's coming down the tube.
The david Cay Johnston piece, (what a load of excrement), worked it's way through the blogosphere. none of the folks who were repeating it really cared if it made any sense or not, it was just the daily talking point and if even one hick out in hooterville bought into it, well then it had done it's job and DCJ was richly rewarded with the thousands of hits which he apparently craves.
So Will, I am becoming an Ezra fan, I think he is just repoprting what he sees and what he sees is an endless parade of bureaucrats oozing the rhetoric of self-preservation.

Posted by: Cheesy1959 | March 1, 2011 1:01 PM | Report abuse

Too bad elections have consequences.

Posted by: jgower2 | March 1, 2011 3:21 PM | Report abuse

Klein is right! The public loves to be held hostage by people who want taxes high so public worker can be paid more than the people who are taxed to pay them. Why would the public want anything else? Why were we so dumb to think the public wouldn't like getting screwed?

So if Klein is right, the Left has nothing to worry about. Their messiah will have a landslide victory and their enemies will be vanquished.

Me? After I think about it, I think I'll take the opposing bet.

Posted by: josephpturner | March 1, 2011 3:32 PM | Report abuse

Ezra... ezra...ezra... Wake up, boy. The New York times lies, along with CBS.

Get out and talk with people. Leave Washington DC, or New York, or wherever you call 'reality' and go talk with the real world.

People don't like being blackmailed by those that are supposed to be serving them.

Posted by: wilsan | March 1, 2011 3:35 PM | Report abuse

"I've actually been surprised at how well unions have held up in the polling."
-Ezra Klein

Why be surprised in light of the favorable coverage the mainstreem media have given to union thugs since -forever? When has The Post covered the SEIU assaulting Tea Party people in Missouri during the healthcare townhalls, or their herassing bank executives in Maryland, or the union supporters in Wisconsin trying to keep Fox News from reporting on the scene in Madison?

They gloss over events like those and then are "...surprised at how well unions have held up in [their] polling."

Posted by: leatherman1 | March 1, 2011 3:37 PM | Report abuse

The poll is bunk and BS. The truth can be seen in the fact the Fleebaggers are capitulating. That says it all. The reality is the opposite of Ezra's dream world and skewed polls.

Posted by: geraldmerits | March 1, 2011 3:37 PM | Report abuse

You folks in the MSM have been skewing polling questions and respondents for so long, half of the country now dismisses them outright. A "NYT/CBS" poll? Now there's an unbiased coupling.
Klein needs to realize that the cat's out of the bag, and that the avg American taxpayer is outraged as they learn more about the largess that these union parasites acquire, particularly since he is the one paying for their marginal performance. Everybody knows that if most of these folks were any good at what they do, they'd have jobs in the private sector.
Delude yourself as you wish, but the voters are going to be watching every penny awarded to these folks, be it in salary or entitlements, from here on. You might as well tell the yoongoons that the party's over.

Posted by: Rocks66 | March 1, 2011 3:39 PM | Report abuse

This is appalling. First of all, this poll chose an unrepresentative group of respondents who were nearly 50% union members, far higher than the population, and then fewer than a thousand of them.

Second, it matters how you ask the poll question. This one said do you approve of collective bargaining? Fine, who doesn't? But other polls have posed more nuanced questions that ask respondents to make a choice between higher taxation for massive and skyrocketing unfunded liabilities and the right to collective bargaining, and the results tilt far in the opposite direction.

But worse is that we just elected Walker here, by a 56% margin. When Obama's initiatives were criticized by conservatives, his answer was "I won." Well, "we won" in Wisconsin with Walker and two months into this you're trying to mount a recall of an honorable man who by WaPo's own reporter's account packed his own paper bag lunches, drove a beatup Saturn to work, and gave back hundreds of thousands of dollars from his salary as Milwaukee's county exec. Our previous Democrat governor, Doyle, did run us deep into debt, but made none of the personal sacrifices that Walker has. Further, in Democrat-heavy Milwaukee, where we had a socialist mayor in the 50s, Walker won three elections with ever-increasing margins, the last a 59% vote.

With this kind of article and that of Greg Sargent today calling for a recall, WaPo is fomenting revolution in America, not a responsible thing to do.

It's possible that responsible adults will win this battle, but we might not. We will, in either case, win the war because you are just booting the can down the road with this nonsense.

Posted by: tom75 | March 1, 2011 3:48 PM | Report abuse

Good old Ezra...he finds the US Constitution to puzzling to understand because "it was written like a hundred years ago". He now seems to think he can decipher the meaning of a poll done by left-leaning, left-tipping, NYT and CBS. Well I could have told you what that poll would conclude a week before the first person was polled. If you want to know what people think look at election returns...Walker campaigned on reigning in unions...he won...and unlike most politicians, he is fulfilling his promise...I think that plays well with Americans, except those feeding on the government teet. Ezra should go back to naval gazing and wondering aimlessly what those pesky founding fathers could have meant by all powers not specifically delegated to the federal government are reserved to the various states.

Posted by: PSOG | March 1, 2011 3:56 PM | Report abuse

"NYT/CBS poll, a third of Americans view them favorably,.."

Even with a rigged (largely union member) poll, they could only achieve a tie? And they proclaim it a "victory" for unions? Desperatly dillusional is closer to the truth.

The shredded remains of the NYT and CBS remaining credibility continues to crumble. (I LOVE it when they expose themselves as Dem Party hacks like this!)

Posted by: wncchester | March 1, 2011 4:01 PM | Report abuse

Nope. Sorry. Once again, I am sick of the left, namely the NYT and CBS using polls as propaganda and then putting it out there for shills like Klein. The poll has 25% of the respondents as PUBLIC EMPLOYEES..hellooo?...
That is literally like asking public employees what they think of themselves. So, there just might be a great big bias, a skew and a little liberal bias given that the poll also has an extra 10% of Democrats in the sample above the Republicans, when in the last election the level was about even. So, this article is pure nonsense. The problem is that these guys all know that...get a clue America and wake up to the tactics. In fact, the real news here might be that Union support was a little as it actually was..which is an entirely different spin on the data.

Posted by: statsman | March 1, 2011 4:03 PM | Report abuse

The only thing that NYT/CBS poll shows is their continuing loss of relevance. Gone are the days when those organizations could manufacture a bogus push-poll and declare the left the winner of the public debate.

That power no longer resides with the "MSM".

Posted by: IUT1 | March 1, 2011 4:07 PM | Report abuse

Absolute trash, biased baloney, but par for the course for the utterly dishonest Ezra Klein. See those two words in a by-line and know you're going to be treated to selective facts and disjointed logic, leading inexorably to a perfectly clear conclusion that's perfectly false.

In this case, the poll numbers were cherrypicked from partisan sources pushing agendas. PPP is a bought-and-paid-for Democrat poller. As posters have pointed out, the NYT/CBS poll has no credibility because it skewed the polling population with a disproportionate share of union and Democrat respondents and failed to represent WI voters accurately. You might as well ask the White House staff what they think of the job Obama is doing.

Frankly, Ezra, what should have surprised you is how *low* the support is for WI public sector unions, which are now usefully exposing the purity of their self-interest and disregard for the taxpayers who are nominally their employers.

Want an honest reading on public opinion about unions? Go to Gallup and check the trends. Whether the press can continue to prop up the Wis. union mobs and portray them as hard-working innocents whose human rights are teetering in the balance is merely a sideshow, a dog-bites-man item in the long slide of unions inn the public's estimation. From Gallup: "There has been a decided decrease in approval of labor unions in recent years. As recently as the 1990s, two-thirds of Americans approved of unions. Now, that approval figure is 52%. Last year’s 48% was the all-time low for this labor union approval measure... Also, given three choices about the influence of labor unions in the United States today, 40% say that unions should have less influence, 29% more influence, and 27% about the same amount of influence they have today. The 'less influence' percentage is near an all-time high level. Again, this is highly related to partisanship."

In other words, Democrats like unions because they pay for Democrat politicians. That is the essence of the problem. Private sector unions have natural adversaries that balance their overreach (except when that power is subverted by -- guess who -- political favor buyers). But as FDR himself said, public employees should not be granted collective bargaining rights. That philosophical truism lost out to Democrats' campaign fund calculus.

Posted by: Imperfections | March 1, 2011 4:11 PM | Report abuse

Sample appears seriously skewed. 47% say voted for Walker, but reality of election result was 52.3% so seriously underweight Walker voters. Also, sample is 32% from union households, but only 26% in Wisconsin from union households, so overweight union households.


Ezra, instead of being a left wing shill and repeating propaganda from a democratic polling firm, why don't you actually read the cross tabs of the poll before writing a fabricated story next time.

How is it that 47% of the people in this poll said they voted for Walker when in reality he received 52% of the vote. It wasn't sampled properly.


Posted by: KBJ2 | March 1, 2011 4:11 PM | Report abuse

Ezra is delusional.
I hope he realizes that people do get their information from alternative sources beyond WAPO/NYT/Newsweek and he looks foolish with his leftist opinions.
If I am only in my twenties and I am consistently on the wrong side of every issue, and my employer is in perpetual subscriber declines, I would adjust to realities rather than commit career suicide.
Supposedly super whizkid still doesn't get it.

Posted by: vatodio | March 1, 2011 4:12 PM | Report abuse

If you purposely skew the poll to include a disproportionate number of Union members or DEMs, then this is what you get. Garbage in is garbage out --- sort of like most of WAPOs opinions.

Posted by: pab11111 | March 1, 2011 4:18 PM | Report abuse

If you purposely skew the poll to include a disproportionate number of Union members or DEMs, then this is what you get. Garbage in is garbage out --- sort of like most of WAPOs opinions.

Posted by: pab11111 | March 1, 2011 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Baloney, Klein. Try reporting without an agenda Mr. Journolist.

Posted by: dfox71 | March 1, 2011 4:21 PM | Report abuse

I just realized that I don't have a dog in this fight since this is a Wisconsin issue (contrary to the meddling of the president) and I live in a right to work state.

Still, I hope that the Governor wins.

Posted by: dfox71 | March 1, 2011 4:23 PM | Report abuse

How do you spell collusion? MSM. They put out polls, with dubious methodology, then all of them trumpet the results. Ironically, the MSM has already proven itself to be untrustworthy, now they want to make their polls untrustworthy also.

Let me give you some advice, if you're going to do a poll and display the methodology, perhaps you should do the job right in the first place.

It is rather improbable that the voters, in Wisconsin, voted in a governor who said he was going to do exactly this, he does it, and they don't agree with him. Try again.

Posted by: bflat879 | March 1, 2011 4:26 PM | Report abuse

When the left lost the abortion debate, they turned it into a
"woman's right to choose" debate.

Now they're losing the municipal union debate so they turned it into a "collective bargaining" debate.

Aren't they clever?

Posted by: kurtmudgeon1 | March 1, 2011 4:26 PM | Report abuse

More complete bullcrap. Heavy union households polled, while union voters only make up 12% of the WI electorate. Shows you how terrified the dems are they're losing the argument. These buckethead union goons aren't fooling anyone.

Posted by: uberrich | March 1, 2011 4:32 PM | Report abuse

Can someone tell me why the Wash Post lets a kid write an adult column? Another lib who has barely had a real job in the real world. Give me a break.

First, I had to read that this near-adult stated that the Constituion is old, so it’s irrelevant to many (not me by the way), now he simply regurgitates Union propaganda. Hey Ezra, Scott Walker was elected after clearly stating he would follow through as he has (unlike the Junior Varsity President we now have in office whm I know you worship). That tells me all I need to know about his popularity. An electoral poll beats the NYT any day.

Now go get your editor a cup of coffee.

Posted by: alecat62 | March 1, 2011 4:43 PM | Report abuse

And in other news, Colonel Gadhafi reports that his people love him.

Posted by: paulthiel1 | March 1, 2011 4:53 PM | Report abuse

This poll shows why the Democrats won such a sweeping victory last November. To those who say these uber-lib media companies wildly oversampled Democrats I say,"PSHAW!" The Democrats won a huge victory in November; there are no budget deficits, federal, state or local; everybody in the country thinks that Gov. Walker should resign and that the Public Employees ought to get a great big raise. Thats what I call polling. I guess that last election was just the Koch Brothers duping all us poor misguided Tea Partiers and doesnt really count.

Posted by: skep41 | March 1, 2011 4:54 PM | Report abuse

The true test of leadership is ignoring the push polls and other propaganda and doing what is right for America. For too long, public unions have been used as a money laundering operation that converts tax dollars to Democrat party money. The issue is not pay, benefits, or pensions. It's the corruption of coerced union dues that are used for political purposes. Follow the federal model and prohibit member dues from being used for any political activity. Union members can make their own private contributions if they wish, but not by means of union dues. The federal model protects workers and prevents them from being manipulated and forced into supporting one political party.

Posted by: doctorfixit | March 1, 2011 4:57 PM | Report abuse

Ezra there is nothing wrong with your gut, wish I could say the same for your brain. The NYT pole sample had 25 percent with a union member in the family even with nation wide union membership running around 6 or 7%. What did they do ask the Teamsters for a mailing list? This pole is worth less than an Ezra Klein article.

Posted by: mogar | March 1, 2011 5:16 PM | Report abuse

So let me see....

CBS News has a current online poll showing only 15% support for the unions....

MSNBC had an online poll that one would expect to be a blowout for the unions that ended up with 44.6% support vs 46.1 not supporting the public sector unions.

But somehow the NYT comes in with completely different results?

Besides polling almost 100 more democrats than republicans, before Ezra trumpets the obvious public support this poll is supposed to reflect, he should read or re-read paragraph 7 of the article, where it states....

The nationwide telephone poll was conducted Feb. 24-27 with 984 adults and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points for all adults. Of those surveyed, 20 percent said there was a union member in their household, and 25 percent said there was a public employee in their household.

So when I take the NYT poll and combine it with the today's USAToday article stating how those in pubic sector unions earn more that those in the private sector in 41 states?....I guess I am suppose to draw the conclusion that most Americans WANT their taxes raised so that can get make sure public union sector employees continue to get paid more than they do?

Ezra and the NYR editorial staff really need to come back down to the real world...

Posted by: KeithnCaryNC | March 1, 2011 5:20 PM | Report abuse

Did the poll distinguish between public and private sector unions? There are significant differences. You'd have to have a strong political bias to lump them together.

Did they only poll their own readers/viewers? I guess completely ignoring both sides of the issue is working out for them.

Posted by: fallsmeadjc | March 1, 2011 5:36 PM | Report abuse

@ Cheesy1959, if you can show any error in my column at it will be corrected quickly and forthrightly. Pleaseemail me at with any errors you can identify.

Posted by: davidcayjohnston | March 1, 2011 5:38 PM | Report abuse

"According to a new NYT/CBS poll" - the left-wing Ezra Klein....

Hey in the hell is going to believe a NYTimes poll? The NYTimes endorsed Obama for prez in 2008.......a little conflict of interest,

Ezra when can we expect a COOKED poll from Newsweek and the left-wingers at the POST/ABC News........?

Ezra....... our dirty dishonest liberal/progressive MSM wolfpack press isn't taken serious by MOST Americans, today......

Posted by: allenridge | March 1, 2011 5:42 PM | Report abuse

Ezra whoever you are, the majority of America now wants to see all 14 Democratic cowards on hands and knees begging for paychecks which will happen after this bill passes into State Law. Messer’s Walker and Fitzgerald have ice water running through their veins and collective bargaining Ezra will be eliminated which will be mirrored by the balance of the 25 Republican Governors if not already.

Elections have consequences and should you folks feel frogish? Jump! Of course as susual you all will until that fateful hour when you say “Whoa, where did all these people come from?” at which time it will be too late. No? Try us.

Regardless, this event will be over in the next 12 or so hours but again, now that we’ve all witnessed the cowardly acts by the infamous 14 I’m not going to be happy until we see all 14 in front of Mr. Fitzgerald desk requesting their checks.

Julie Lassa is pregnant and will begin ripping heads off to get home and Jon Erpenbach is broke. It’s fracturing Ezra but Walker and Fitzgerald are not.

Go sell young and crazy someplace else until you have a few more election cycles under your belt. By the way, who are you or who do you think you are?

Posted by: spiderbyte88 | March 1, 2011 5:56 PM | Report abuse

At some point reality sets in.

Following policies that reward real wealth creation for leaving results in declining national wealth and tax base. Eventually that will result in a what we are seeing now - public sector workers following private sector workers into the abattoir.

Posted by: katorga | March 1, 2011 5:58 PM | Report abuse

Big news----recent polling shows that an overwhelming majority of union households support unions' grant to force their employer to collectively bargain.

More big news-----recent reports indicate that an overwhelming majority of Wisconsin legislators support limiting the public unions' collective bargaining grant to wages only.

Soon, very soon, Walker gets his law, the yahoos go back to their homeless shelters, and this becomes second page news.

Posted by: FriscoDB | March 1, 2011 6:05 PM | Report abuse

Do I get to laugh at this article now or later? Holy cow, just the fact that the NYT and CBS released this poll as news when they readily admit that the poll participants leaned heavily on having a Union member in the family should be enough to nullify the results. Of course when you put PPP, a left wing partisan polling group up as your qualifier it becomes even worse. I know of no one outside of those employed by Govt who don't think Govt employees are a joke.

Posted by: jwbeuk | March 1, 2011 6:22 PM | Report abuse

"How is it that 47% of the people in this poll said they voted for Walker when in reality he received 52% of the vote. It wasn't sampled properly."

Buyers' remorse. If you were to poll a representative sample on the 2004 general election, you won't find a majority admitting they voted for Bush. (Nor would you find 53% saying they voted for Obama in 2008.)

Once again, Ezra attracts the dumbest commenters on the internets.

Posted by: pseudonymousinnc | March 1, 2011 6:22 PM | Report abuse

My father was an IBEW guy for 46 years before he retired. I have been a member of 6 unions and worked on two organizing campaigns when I was younger. But unions have far outlived their usefulness... and if you think I believe the average school teacher should be paid $86,000 for 9 months of work, and produce the type of mediocre minds American public schools produce (or worse) you're nuts!

Posted by: stanman1 | March 1, 2011 6:31 PM | Report abuse

Little baby Ezra pushing the Marxist propaganda again. Please little baby Ezra grow up past puberty before you write another article. Make sure to check in with Soros and the Journalist list before you spew your garbage.Remember don't leave NYC you are not wanted in working America.

Posted by: harley2002 | March 1, 2011 6:37 PM | Report abuse

pseudonymousinnc: Wrote Once again, Ezra attracts the dumbest commenters on the internets.

Damn right you posted that proves it LOL.

Posted by: harley2002 | March 1, 2011 6:40 PM | Report abuse

Walker is not feeling that his gut instincts were wrong. He knows this wouldn't go over well and thus, the unethical and illegal actions we have seen him take to push this bill through. Obviously, rejecting a court order and continuing to block the people from entering the Capitol and sneaking tea partiers in to support him with cheers during his speech, along with violating law sending troopers after the 14, the prank phone call ethical and legal issues, are a clear signs that Walker could care less about keeping his job. He continues to push. Why? Because Scott Walker is just a pawn in a Pinky and the Brain scheme and his pay will come later. Corps sent jobs over seas, say wages are TO EXPENSIVE, all the while pocketing BILLIONS, Corps pay to get Repubs backing their plan into office, Repubs say if jobs are lost "so be it" across the nation....

create massive unemployment
Crush Unions
Lower Wages
Bring back jobs from over seas
Offer starving families low paying jobs
Lose more houses
Rich take houses
Poor pay Rich Rent
Poor can only afford ESSENTIALS
Rich are lined up to sell those Essentials
Small Business goes out of business
Big Business eats them up

Has anyone looked at the products koch has to sell? ESSENTIALS.... remember the clause in the bill that he can sell to whoever he wants, without bids, the utility/power plants etc.?

Pinky and the Brain, or Walker and the Brain?

Posted by: TessTy | March 1, 2011 7:32 PM | Report abuse

Isn't this the same Ezra that was on that conference call with other "journalists" as they decided how to slant/change their political coverage in order to benefit democrats? The only poll that really matters is the one we just had in November. Libs have a difficult time understanding conservative leaders who do what they promised and who stick to their principles. Let the libs put their "fingers in the air" to see which way the wind is blowing.

Posted by: freedomliberty13 | March 1, 2011 7:43 PM | Report abuse

Forget the intentionally skewed and flawed polls. Pollsters of every stripe game these things to get the desired result. The issues here are clear. We are talking only about PUBLIC employee unions and the ability for these unions to "buy" the person on the other side of the negotiating table who can then repay the unions and ensure their future support with taxpayer money. That is about as corrupt of a system as Bernie Madoff could imagine and it is pretty much the "right" that these complicit and corrupt partners are fighting so hard to retain. A "right," by the way, that FEDERAL employees don't currently have. Heck, Walker in Wisconsin isn't even asking to take away the public union's right to collectively bargain for their salaries. He is only talking about stripping away the subterfuge around the massive and growing pensions and benefits packages that our corrupt politicians saddle future generations with paying as the inevitable kickback for union contributions. The politicians and union officials that put these massive debts on the back of taxpayers should be tarred and feathered and put in the public square for the humiliation they deserve as the thieves and crooks they are.

Posted by: MildlyAmused | March 1, 2011 8:01 PM | Report abuse

The teachers in Wisconsin would have a lot stronger argument if test results for Wisconsin students wouldn't have been cratering for the last 20 years. Hard to justify lavish pensions and benefits when your work product is terrible. Just saying.

Posted by: MildlyAmused | March 1, 2011 8:06 PM | Report abuse

George Meany (a union founder) and that moron FDR were BOTH against public sector unions!!! The Public Sector Unions negotiate with the same CROOKED DIMOCRAT politicians they have bought and paid for using union money!!!!! In the private sector you have labor on one side and management on the other negotiating in good faith. In the Public Sector, you have unions forcing members to pay dues to finance (BUY and PAY for) the very political slime-balls they will be negotiating with at the bargaining table!!! The taxpayers are SCREWED as the bought and paid for DIMOCRAT POLITICIANS turn around and rape the taxpayer on behalf of the UNION THAT BOUGHT THEM!!!! It is for this VERY REASON President Jimmy Carter BAN collective bargaining for Federal employees in 1978!!!!!!!! Even after Governor Walker gets done doing what Mitch Daniels did 6 years ago in Indiana and put the state in the "BLACK" ever since, the public sector unions in Wisconsin will still have MORE so-called "rights" than do Federal employees!!! So SHUT-UP you bunch of leeches and we will let YOU know what we (the taxpayer) are going to pay you!!

Posted by: rmram | March 1, 2011 8:36 PM | Report abuse

Scott Walker is on his way to wrecking Wisconsin state government and making life worse in that state. He has the full support of the rightwing Tea party. No wonder the numbers for the unions look good: at least they've worked to improve the standard of living for all in Wisconsin.

Posted by: dudh | March 1, 2011 8:59 PM | Report abuse

Shocking that Journolist Ezra would think this way!

Posted by: lightnin001 | March 1, 2011 9:22 PM | Report abuse

Shocking that Journolist Ezra would think this way!

Posted by: lightnin001 | March 1, 2011 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Too bad you only cite left-leaning polls. Rasmussen Reports shows reverse numbers of the ones you just referenced.

Posted by: ethanlantz | March 1, 2011 9:29 PM | Report abuse

Wasn't there a poll last November?

As I recall, that poll used the most accurate method we know of...i.e. voting!

Who won that poll?

Posted by: FastEddieO007 | March 1, 2011 9:29 PM | Report abuse

This isn't about polls. It's about breaking the power of public unions and forcing them into oblivion.

If I were Scott Walker, I'd drive this issue to victory and take my chances with the electorate in 4 years.

If he caves, he caves for everyone who has stood up for fiscal sanity. Caving hurts himself, as the media and union hacks will make him their b-t-h for the next four years.

This is what happened to Arnold, who boldly put 4 good ideas on the ballot, and was abandoned by craven Republicans, flaccid business wusses, and a state of moochers who thought they could vote themselves into prosperity by all becoming greedy government employees.

These people killed CA and IL, and it's nice of Walker to have the courage to try and reverse the tide of red ink caused by public unions.

Break them in WI, and the next 3-4 states will follow this year. The rest will go before 2012. Drive unions from the public sector while we can.

This is a battle between a solvent America and a declining "Greece-on-Steroids"

Posted by: BrunoBehrend | March 1, 2011 9:33 PM | Report abuse

Ezra has lost all credibility. The poll over-sampled union members and Democrats. Did you read the entire poll, Ezra? Or did it not matter because the results fit your leftist agenda?

Posted by: ronald7 | March 1, 2011 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Ezra.Ezra. Ezra..The way you cherry pick biased polls makes your case very confusing. It's like you wrote this over a hundred years ago.

Posted by: jadams76 | March 1, 2011 9:59 PM | Report abuse

david cay,
I think your article, the "taxpayers aren't paying for this the union members are... it's all their money!" implies that deferring some compensation and getting the money plus interest later (like some sort of 401k, a defined contribution without a defined benefit) is the eqivilent of the sweetheart deal the public unions have, putting away some negotiated sum of money in return for a pension that is a defined benefit which is guaranteed by the state's taxpayers.
From what I read the state workers often demand that any sort of surplus from a good year be sucked out as a "thirteenth check" and handed over right now, virtually insuring that someday the taxpayers are going to get stuck holding the public workers pension bag.
You reasoning seems faulty and designed to misled rather than enlightened...
The overwhelming arrogance within which you wrap your ... shall we say.. "stuff" is almost humorous. I especially liked the part about your imaginary little differential being the "the most troubling thing" in your world, that was hyperbolic genius.
Your "my research" data link points to a bureau of labor statistics page which doesn't have any date to support your conclusions... and David, your "finding" was everywhere, just like the PPP poll, it was foolishness fed to a gaggle of geese hungry for psuedo facts to justify doing things like screaming at the children of the Governor of Wisconsin (if they were in fact at home during that shameful display).
David, you're not alone, there are fake intellectuals pumping out this junk by the gigabite... the union bosses have deep pockets filled with money and politicians, they can afford 200 polls a day and a thousand guys like you.
David, tell me this, do you find any problem with the methodology of a poll which purports that it indicates the outcome of an election "do-over" even though it doesn't start it's calculations with a sample that represents the 2010 electorate? ... yup,yup ,yup, I know, you're really smart, I'm really dumb and anything that anybody less smart than you thinks is "simply nonsense"

Posted by: Cheesy1959 | March 1, 2011 10:09 PM | Report abuse

You can get polls to say anything you want when you manipulate the people you poll or the questions. Most of the honest polls show Gov Walker with strong majority support for what he's doing. The corrupt deal between the public employee unions and and the democrats has plunged the state deep into debt despite high taxes. FDR opposed collective bargaining for public employee unions because he knew how corrupting it would be! Gov Walker must do his duty. The good people of Wisconsin will support him and bring this insanity of corrupt spending, deals, and debt to an end. The public employee unions can't be allowed to bankrupt the entire nation!

Posted by: valwayne | March 1, 2011 10:39 PM | Report abuse

Can you imagine the sort of nation wide muck raking operation that the dems and their union bosses must be running in an attempt to dig up some dirt on Scott Walker? I bet that there are millions of dollars being spent in an attempt to besmirch him in any way possible.

Posted by: Cheesy1959 | March 1, 2011 10:51 PM | Report abuse

One factor in unions polling so well in this survey is the terrible job the media has done in covering this issue.
1. Collective bargaining is not an inalienable right, it is a "legal right" that was granted by government, therefore it can be taken away by government. Unlike Wisconsin state employees, most federal government employees don't have the ability to collectively bargain for wages.
2. The money from the 2009 stimulus was primarily used not for "shovel ready projects", but to bail out state and local governments so that they could kick the budgetary can down the road a couple of years.
3. Workers in the private sector have been dealing with a bad economy for 2 or 3 years. Government employees have largely been spared.
4. The agreement by Wisconsin unions doesn't apply to the political subdivisions (cities, counties and school districts). In fact, unions have been scrambling to complete contracts with political subdivisions in order to subvert the state budget.
5. One of the primary issues with unions in general is that they are government protected monopolies. When government protects a monopoly, it's only a matter of time before it starts acting like one. An employee who doesn't agree with a union's goals is still forced to belong to and pay dues to the union. An employer faced with a union that makes excessive demands is severely restricted in the actions it can take. Given this monopoly status, the endgame of any unionized organization, public or private, is collapse. The steel industry in the 70's, most heavy manufacturing in the 80's and 90's, GM and Chrysler last year, and now government.

I wonder what the survey results would have been if these points were the media narrative?

Posted by: Dkovar6501 | March 1, 2011 11:35 PM | Report abuse

And Ezra was so right about how Obamacare polled, was polling, and would poll, wasn't he? The truth is that Governor Walker did not propose pay cuts as cited in the poll. The only question then, is whether the public unions are biting the hand that feeds them, and when push comes to shove, do you really believe middle class voters will opt to reduce benefits to themselves and the poor, over cuts to government workers - with whom most of them have had negative dealings at some point - who are making more than they are, with better medical and retirement packages? Keep smoking that hookah, my friend.

Posted by: INTJ | March 1, 2011 11:46 PM | Report abuse

Seriously, this guy is not only inexperienced and biased in the extreme, he has become a fraud! No one believes this and it is pure propaganda. Astonishing that the Post survives! Sad that David Broder and Dan Balz, serious thinkers, liberal though they may be, are demeaned by the association with baby Ezra! Public employee unions take money from taxpayers, pay themselves handsomely (more than private sector employees in 41 states) and then give over 90% of their political contributions to Democrats who when elected expand the union benefits to the detriment of taxpayers and future generations. That is just corrupt and there is no other word for it. There is no philosophical justification for public employee unions. collective bargaining for public employees is outlawed in half the states. It is not a right. Most police officers, fire fighters and teachers do their jobs because they love them and the real service they provide, not for the Cadillac union health plans, most of which have now received waivers under Obamacare, or for the pension plans which historically, of course, have been the piggy banks of organized crime. Is this child fabricator at the Post long for journalism? Shouldn't he just go straight to the DNC or pimp more transparently for Rezko, Wright and Obama? Sad....

Posted by: Panther50 | March 1, 2011 11:49 PM | Report abuse

Seriously, this guy is not only inexperienced and biased in the extreme, he has become a fraud! No one believes this and it is pure propaganda. Astonishing that the Post survives! Sad that David Broder and Dan Balz, serious thinkers, liberal though they may be, are demeaned by the association with baby Ezra! Public employee unions take money from taxpayers, pay themselves handsomely (more than private sector employees in 41 states) and then give over 90% of their political contributions to Democrats who when elected expand the union benefits to the detriment of taxpayers and future generations. That is just corrupt and there is no other word for it. There is no philosophical justification for public employee unions. Collective bargaining for public employees is outlawed in half the states. It is not a right. Most police officers, fire fighters and teachers do their jobs because they love them and the real service they provide, not for the Cadillac union health plans, most of which have now received waivers under Obamacare, or for the pension plans which historically, of course, have been the piggy banks of organized crime. Is this child fabricator at the Post long for journalism? Shouldn't he just go straight to the DNC or pimp more transparently for Rezko, Wright and Obama? Sad....

Posted by: Panther50 | March 1, 2011 11:51 PM | Report abuse

Whoa, lotta teabaggers here! You rightwing racists have allota nerve calling into question the numbers from The Paper Of Record. It's completely legitimate to have oversampling of one side or another from time to time, so long as you clarify the pool demographics, as the NYT did on page A17.

Rasmussen does this sometimes, & Faux, & you don't make a peep. CNN, ABC, USA Today, & Gallop (all part of the Vast Rightwing Corperate Disinformation Machine) have all oversampled Repukes in the past, & yet you b@st@rds don't condemn it!

Face it, you just don't like how te media is covering this. But hey, their just holding up a mirrors, showing you your ugly mugs. Just cus the sampling happens to be a little skewed, doesn't nessisarily invalidate the polls findings. The NYT wouldn't jeopardize it's 150 year credibility if their wasn't some truth to there story. It,s hardly "liberal", more Banksters on WS read it then Working Families.

Your just afraid you might lose the PR Campaign, cus us Union Workers won't let you fatcats take away our money & our well deserved privileges.

We work for the public good, its time te public started working for us. You owe us for the 5 day work week, the 8 hour work day, minimum wage, collective bargaing rights, maternity leave, etc. Black rights, brown rights, womens equality would all be trampled without a strong union workers movement in this country. If not for us, you'd all be slaves to the Corperate Thevies who stolen this countries wealth. Capitalism kilss. You may be broke, but at least your not slaves, or dead. How bout a little gratitude.

Posted by: ThisMachineKillsFascists | March 2, 2011 12:55 AM | Report abuse

I hate to pile on..oh, who am I kidding? In this case, I LOVE to....
Ezra, you remind me of the old adage."never ascribe to malice what can just as easily be explained by ignorance". In your case, however, the issue remains that you're already known for your "progressive" (read: neo-Marxist) bias, your willingness to distort numbers to suit your agenda ("JournoList" anyone?) and your complete and repeated failure to acknowledge the slightest thing that might ever-so-slightly damage your pet causes.
That being the case, this article only serves as yet another reminder of the total absence of journAlistic integrity and objectivity in both your and the Post's coverage of the wisconsin debacle.
Good luckfinding relevance somewhere. Perhaps Mother Jones has an opening for their Op-Ed section...

Posted by: OttoDog | March 2, 2011 12:58 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for your post. What a telling example of the "hey, give us your money, you OWE us!" attitude that public employee unions have.

Posted by: OttoDog | March 2, 2011 1:01 AM | Report abuse

"If not for us, you'd all be slaves to the Corperate Thevies who stolen this countries wealth. Capitalism kilss. You may be broke, but at least your not slaves, or dead."
I have relatives who fought hard for real unions (UMW), who got attacked on a regular basis by company goons.
Don't you dare include yourselves with them. Public and private unions are 2 completely different animals.

Posted by: invention13 | March 2, 2011 2:11 AM | Report abuse

There seems to be 2 under-currents to everything happening:

1) public employees exist because they somehow can't "find a job" in the private sector, or are "gaming" the system in some way.
2) public-sector jobs are not desirable and entail risk which requires additional compensation.

Neither are 100% true. There are jobs which people don't want to do, there are jobs which people are forced into because of circumstance. I have a graduate degree and personally would need "more" compensation to even think about becoming a public-sector employee. At the same time, another person might be very happy serving the public good. Call me selfish. I doubt many kids would say "I want to become an elementary school teacher when I grow up". This our major problem - it will be our downfall.

It's about incentives. What problems are we trying to solve and where are we going to find the people to solve them? What incentive do we need to provide? What is it worth to us?

We have to seriously answer these questions otherwise we will go under as a country. Unions or no unions. Every structure has its own place, time and appropriateness.

Posted by: niraj2 | March 2, 2011 2:53 AM | Report abuse

Since the people who pay Ezra know that he is a hack who started JournoList, has since changed it's name and moved it to another site, and continues to write fiction...

Why don't we all make sure that any article by Ezra gets the same respect as one buys into it.

Drive the numbers down.

No more hits on Ezra articles.

Me first. I'm sick of this kid.

2012 cannot come soon enough.

Posted by: letscheck | March 2, 2011 3:38 AM | Report abuse

Soviet crop reports have more credibility than that NYT/CBS poll. Remember all their polls telling us how much America wanted Obamacare? Americans loves it so much that not one Democrat ran on it in the last election.

Posted by: carolinadreams | March 2, 2011 6:24 AM | Report abuse

Klien's statistics demonstrate why our Founders opted for a Constitutional Republic rather than a democracy.

A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Public Sector unions are unjustifiable and proven to corrupt our electoral process from fraudulent voter registration through fraudulent voting and vote counting.

What gives public sector unions any authority to dictate to non-union taxpayers how services will be provided or what they will cost?

Public sector unions and politicians are complicit in a kick-back scheme that the Mafia can only salivate over.

Posted by: fbanta | March 2, 2011 7:55 AM | Report abuse

Election do have consequences but thank God for recall petitions.

Walker might not have been elected if he had campaigned against unions and presented this plan during the campaign. Bait and switch doesn't work very well with an informed electorate (if their information goes beyond the Fox/Rush/Savage/Boortz echo chamber)

Posted by: DougH1 | March 2, 2011 8:51 AM | Report abuse

Basically what the unions are asking is that we take the money we would otherwise use to pay for our own healthcare and retirement and give it over to the state so we can pay for those of union members. Many of us reviled small businesspeople are paying 100% of both, yet all anyone can talk about is taxing us more - to pay for heavily subsidized benefits, fare more generous than any private sector organization.

Bottom line is the unions overreached for years and now drastic measures are required. I commend Walker for his restraint, I would have terminated the contract and begun hiring new teachers already.

Posted by: ted22 | March 2, 2011 9:29 AM | Report abuse

Bogus poll. You know it, I know it, why quote it? Oh, yes. Democrats increased voter affiliation since 2008, the last election proves that huh?!?!

No, the public does not support monopolistic, public unions who "negotiate" with the same Democrats they elected and are forced to contibute union dues, errrr, campaign contributions to. Talk about the fox guarding the hen house... There's no honesty or integrity here people move along. Ezra Klein has no credibility.

Posted by: dmorris1 | March 2, 2011 11:41 AM | Report abuse

Not all 65-year old Medicare/SS folks are non-voters.

Posted by: ShirleyHall | March 2, 2011 7:01 PM | Report abuse

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