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Posted at 6:03 PM ET, 01/31/2008

Democratic Debate, Jan. 31, 2008

By Michael Dobbs


Clinton the "negotiator"

The Clinton campaign has provided various news clips to support Hillary Clinton's claim during last night's debate about "negotiating with governments like Macedonia to open their border again, to let Kosovar refugees in." The news articles make clear that Clinton visited Albanian refugee camps in Macedonia on May 14, 1999, during the NATO bombing war against Serbia. Macedonia had closed its borders the previous week, in order to stem the flow of Albanian refugees from Kosovo. The Macedonian government reopened the border on May 13, the day before Clinton toured the camps. According to this CNN report, only a few stragglers crossed the border.

Clearly, Clinton's visit to Macedonia helped focus even more international attention on the country and the refugee crisis that resulted from the forced expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Kosovo by the Serbian authorities. According to a May 16 Chicago Tribune report cited by the Clinton campaign, Clinton announced the "release of the first $ 2 million in a $ 21 million economic development package for Macedonia" at a meeting with Macedonian government leaders.

The question is whether Clinton personally negotiated the deal with the Macedonian government--or U.S. diplomats used her forthcoming visit as an additional incentive to persuade the Macedonian authorities to re-open the border. The sequence of events--first the border reopening, followed by Clinton's visit to the camps and her meeting with Macedonian government leaders--points to the second scenario.

This issue may seem trivial but it addresses the question of the nature of Clinton's White House experience. Was she the traditional First Lady or was she almost a co-president with Bill, helping to bring peace in Northern Ireland and negotiating with foreign governments? A truthful answer is somewhere in between. As a candidate, she has naturally tried to focus public attention on the trips she made to places like China, Northern Ireland, and the Balkans, and her meetings with foreign leaders. She claimed at one point that she was "intimately involved" in the Northern Ireland peace process. The record shows that she took an intelligent interest in all these issues, addressing conferences and meeting with victims of war, but did not get involved in diplomatic negotiations in any meaningful way. Her role was more symbolic than substantive.

10 p.m.


That's it for tonight. The debate was fairly civil and non-confrontational. There are a few items that require more checking. Seeking to demonstrate that she gained valuable foreign policy experience as First Lady, Clinton said that she had negotiated with Macedonia over the return of Albanian refugees. We have asked the Clinton campaign to elaborate on this claim, as we cannot find news accounts to support it immediately. Clinton visited Albanian refugee camps in Macedonia in May 1999, but no word on substantive "negotiations." Tune in tomorrow.

9:10 p.m.

Drivers licenses for immigrants

The subject that tripped up Clinton and Obama returns! Clinton misquoted herself from the Philadelphia debate on drivers licenses. She said tonight that she tried to support Governor Eliot Spitzer of New York in his plan to allow illegal immigrants to have drivers' licenses, "although I didn't agree with it personally." But that was not how she put it when the subject came up in the Democratic debate in Philadelphia at the end of October. She said then that plan "made a lot of sense," but refused to take a position on it one way or the other. On November 1, her campaign put out the following statement: "Senator Clinton supports governors like Governor Spitzer who believe they need such a measure to deal with the crisis caused by this administration's failure to pass comprehensive immigration reform." No word on her being against the idea personally.

8:52 p.m.

Obama and $1 trillion

Obama said there are $1 trillion in tax loopholes. This is a wildly inflated figure. The annual gross domestic product of the United States is about $13 trillion--and the annual tax revenue collected by the United States is about $1.6 trillion. Obama may have been talking about a figure of tax loopholes over a period of time--say, a decade--but that's also a stretch. Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY), the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, is looking for $1 trillion over 10 years in tax offsets for a comprehensive tax bill, but loopholes are not going to cover that gap. Politicians often promise to save money by closing tax loopholes, but the actual savings are usually much less than advertised.


Obama vs. McCain

According to Obama, McCain opposed the Bush tax cuts on the grounds that "we have never cut taxes at the same time as we are going to war." This was not the reason that McCain advanced for not voting for the Bush tax cuts in 2001, before 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. At the time, McCain said that he was voting against the tax cuts because they favored the wealthy at the expense of the middle class.

Obama and the Dictators

8:43 p.m.

Sen. Clinton tried to suggest Sen. Obama is naïve on foreign policy, claiming he had said he would meet with five dictators without preconditions in his first year as president. This is a stretch. In July, Obama was asked a theoretical question, based on the fact that former Egyptian president Anwar Sadat traveled to Israel to make peace, "whether you would be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?"
Obama answered: "I would. And the reason is this: that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them -- which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration -- is ridiculous."
Clinton, in her response to the same question, said: "Well, I will not promise to meet with the leaders of these countries during my first year."
But Obama did not say he would promise to have the meetings or even that he would have the meetings. He simply said he would be willing to have such meetings, arguing it was wrong to shun any talks if progress could be made.

Obama and Health Care

8.25 P.M.

Senator Obama seems on shaky ground when he says that the only people who will not get health care under his plan will be people who don't want it. The figure of 15 million people who might be left out under his plan comes from projections based on a universal health care plan introduced in Massachusetts over the last year. The Urban Institute, a Washington-based think tank, gamed out various different models for health care reform in Massachusetts several years ago, and estimated that probably half the uninsured would be left out without a mandate. Extrapolated to the whole country, that would leave 22 million out of 45 million people still uninsured. Since the Obama plan provides for mandatory insurance for children, the total number of uninsured would probably come down to around 15 million. Obama's plan would reduce the cost of health insurance, but the cost would still be a stretch for many families.


Please join me, diplomatic reporter Glenn Kessler and researcher Alice Crites for live truth squadding of tonight's Democratic debate from Hollywood. It promises to be an exciting mano a mano duel pitting the two remaining candidates, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, against each other, just five days before Super Tuesday.

We will fact check whatever we can during the debate. If a statement is too difficult to fact check immediately, we will take note of it, and take another look at it tomorrow. Since this is a fast fact check, we will not be issuing immediate rulings. Please help us by using the comments and Contact the Fact Checker tools to flag questionable claims or statements.

--Michael Dobbs

By Michael Dobbs  | January 31, 2008; 6:03 PM ET
Categories:  Barack Obama, Candidate Record, Economy, Immigration, Iraq, Live Fact Check, Other Foreign Policy  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: GOP Debate, Jan. 30, 2008.
Next: Clinton and the Iraq Vote


check your title date. Its the 31st January. Fact. Good start guys.

Posted by: Dr KSH | January 31, 2008 7:01 PM | Report abuse

Isn't it somewhat amusing that the fact checker has the wrong date in the headline - "Democratic Debate, Jan. 30, 2008"?

And as an aside, we'll be liveblogging the debate over at

Regardless, thanks for the service...

Posted by: | January 31, 2008 7:02 PM | Report abuse

Who won the CNN Democratic Debate in California?


Posted by: PollM | January 31, 2008 8:45 PM | Report abuse

Can you document where you got that 15 million figure? I thought the 15 million figure came from a very rough estimate by a journalist in a New Republic article. Also, didn't Clinton essentially concede that her program won't cover everyone either? (I have to wait for the transcript to see this exactly.)

Posted by: Economists for Obama | January 31, 2008 9:01 PM | Report abuse

On the $1 trillion figure, Obama used this in his economic policy speech
, so it's clearly a figure his economic advisers signed off on.

I agree it sounds high, but it depends of course how you define loophole. The Obama campaign should be able to give you an explanation.

Posted by: Economists for Obama | January 31, 2008 9:16 PM | Report abuse

Ankleless Annie was asked the "experience" question, but avoided mentioning the husband's "experiences" during her years as First White Housekeeper...person.

Posted by: sawargos | January 31, 2008 9:30 PM | Report abuse

I wrote up the origins of the 15 million figure at Economists for Obama
, based on an article in the Washington Post and the two other fact check sites. I'm happy to change this if you can present any evidence that the figure comes from projections based on the Massachusetts plan!

Posted by: Economists for Obama | January 31, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

Obama just put up a howler that got applauded by the innumerate crowd.

He wants to lower health care premiums by an average of $2500 per year per family.

Well, 80 million families times 2.5 grand is $200 billion he's going to have Uncle Sam distribute. Plus more, as the typical annual increase in health care will implicity be borne by the Fed as well. Plus more, if you understand that costs will also rise as people are less stingy with others' (i.e. taxpayers) money than they are with their own.

That's at least two pinocchios worth of Obama nonsense right there.

Posted by: The Angry One | January 31, 2008 9:58 PM | Report abuse

Are you guys fact checking Hillary too or just Obama? Looks awfully one sided to me.

Posted by: Bob | January 31, 2008 9:59 PM | Report abuse

i am so sick of the new medias darling obama i just wish he would go away i have stopped watching television news because i am sick of hearing about him i have also quit reading the newspaper i only check news on the internet then i can click on what i want to read i may never go back to watching the news because of this i use to enjoy watching the news but not anymore i am so sick of obama being pushed down peoples throat i just hope it stops soon or i may never watch the news anymore enough is enough go away obama go away

Posted by: linda | January 31, 2008 10:15 PM | Report abuse

She lied. Baldfaced. She said that Saddam Hussein kicked the U.N. Weapons Inspectors out of Iraq. BILL CLINTON kicked the U.N. weapons inspectors out, before the December 1998 bombing.

It's all part of her rewriting of history. Why she didn't have to read the intelligence report before voting for war and the aggressive, hostile occupation, why she supported the occupation from the Pork Zone in 2005.

And why is she in unqualifed by her experience to be President.

Posted by: moo | January 31, 2008 10:17 PM | Report abuse

Fact check this, How about what the Clinton's turn the White House into with that Monica lady. How about checking on The Arkansas scandel where Mrs Clinton was a attorney. The who ever becomes President needs to look into then Gov Clinton and his security in Hot Springs. These facts should even get either of them elected for dog catcher.... But they are wanting the White House again.

Posted by: cc | January 31, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse

The facts...Not a Washington Insider, Romney has a sophisticated understanding of the challenges we face in both the national and global economies. He is a highly educated and successful leader in business making money by turning around floundering companies such as Staples and helping to produce thousands of jobs, understands the importance of people, organization, research, planning, communication and direction. He was class valedictorian at BYU, MBA and LAW degree from Harvard. While Governor of mostly Democrat Massachusetts, he brought the fractured constituencies together and they became the first state with a universal health care plan that seems to work, official figures indicate that roughly 200,000 previously uninsured residents have gained health coverage, a 45 percent drop in minimum premium costs and a 34 percent reduction in the uninsured. He took no salary at all as Governor because as he said, I have enough. He lowered state taxes, most of what Romney raised was in the form of fees, not taxes, such as court filings and firearm licensing fees. But he also closed loopholes on corporate taxes. Increased funding for education, Massachusetts students ranked #l in the nation in education. Increased penalties on drunk driving. Never supported the release of criminals convicted of serious crimes. Never was first to bring up religion. He turned around MA's economy from deficit to surplus, balancing their budget in less than 4 years. How dare he do his job well and for no pay on top of it!!! When the Salt Lake City Olympics crumbled under corruption/scandal and financial disaster he went to Salt Lake, took over for a one dollar salary, saved the Olympics and made it profitable. He led a massive security mobilization at the Olympics in the wake of the 9/11 attack and, as governor, helped build up Massachusetts' homeland security efforts. He supports a strong military. He is concerned about illegal immigration and what it means to the security of the United States. He wants to retool America and bring the jobs back home. I can certainly understand liberals hating Romney, after all he's been married to the same woman. He's from a close knit family and values family first. Regarding his flip-flopping on big issues? He may have flipped but not flopped! Everyone, and that means everyone in politics makes mistakes, gets to change their mind once after gaining more knowledge, and most politicians seem to change more than once. Stand all of the candidates up next to each other in a direct comparison of what they really have done and then vote for the best person to make good change and run the country in the right direction.

Posted by: DDinnell | January 31, 2008 10:48 PM | Report abuse

Hilary's response to "If you can't control Bill during your campaign, how will you control him if he's back in the White House" was an extended cackle.

How do you fact-check a cackle?

Posted by: Roland Stone | January 31, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

I don't belileve Obama said that McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts because one shouldn't but taxes while going into war. I understood Obama to be saying that he himself believed that. He was posing the arguments he would use against the Republicans in the fall election, I think. Check it.

Posted by: Dave Southern | January 31, 2008 11:26 PM | Report abuse

Speaking as a Republican...I think the only canidate coming into this race on either side who wasn't wearing a phony mask was Obama.If you look at our past voting record and who we impeached liar followed by one weasel...I would have to predict Hillary Clinton...

Posted by: Kent | January 31, 2008 11:26 PM | Report abuse

Obama will always look like a breath of fresh air in these debates, because he doesn't have any baggage, nor no one really knows him. An experienced Senator HAS BAGGAGE. Just look at Ted Kennedy (and his track record). Ironic is it? All the other candidates need to do it point this out and Obama's experience is a hope and a prayer.

IL senate is not as complex as NY, CA, PA, FL, or even VA. And a 1 term senator, you don't have much of a network, so you can easily follow the popular color of the week.

In the end, it's still a new set of fresh heads and I look forward to voting for a Obama-Clinton '08 or Clinton-Obama '08 campaign (HINT).

Posted by: cww | February 1, 2008 1:23 AM | Report abuse

The debates were designed for the two contenders to distance themselves from being antagonist toward each other.The responses were pretty equal.The problem I have with Mrs Clinton is her husband who has poor morals and will be a confidant to Mrs Clinton.She stood up for "her man";this was poor judgement and now seems political and not truthful.Hence my vote for Mr.Obama.

Posted by: jeffphillips | February 1, 2008 2:22 AM | Report abuse

hey utard, i mean ddinnell, thanks for the romney propaganda, it sure was swell. but now now the swellings going away. ctr

Posted by: david lee | February 1, 2008 4:22 AM | Report abuse

At the beginning of the debate, Senator Clinton said that one of the main differences between her and Senator Obama was that she was not willing to meet with dictator countries such as Iran. But when she was asked a question about what strategy to take in order to end the Iraq war,she mentioned that part of the solution was to meet with countries surrounding Iraq, such as Iran, during her first year of presidency. NOW WHAT KIND OF FLIP FLOP IS THAT???? FACT CHECK THAT!

Posted by: evelyn | February 1, 2008 7:07 AM | Report abuse

I absolutely loved the debate last night! For the first time actual policy possitions were laid out and the bickering that transpired over the last couple of weeks has gone away! There truly isn't any major policy differences between these two canidates, and I believe either one will be a step above anything the Repubs can put forward! These two have made the voting process actaully worth taking part in! Clinton/Obama '08 has a winnging ring to it......

Posted by: JamesNPhi | February 1, 2008 7:33 AM | Report abuse

Begging to differ just a tad:

In the back and forth about Hillary supporting drivers licenses while Gov. Spitzer was trying to get it done in New York, there was a point where Hillary was pressed about it in a debate, she said then that she understood the problems the governor had, but she did not say she supported it.

Until that point I thought she had sounded like she did support it. I believe it is telling that Governor Richardson has done it in the state of New Mexico, it is a safty issue.

Posted by: dutchess2 | February 1, 2008 7:59 AM | Report abuse

Does anyone remember when Bill was running for office how everything was Hillary's fault? And now it seems Bill did all the bad things and we should elect Hillary.

Please, lets end the dynasty. Anyone but a Clinton.

Posted by: Karen, Pasadena, California | February 1, 2008 8:57 AM | Report abuse

We would like to vote for Hillary Clinton because she has enough experience to be the next President of the US. A message for people who blamed about Mrs. Clinton: "Everybody can make a mistake, we have to forgive whatever people did in the past." Now, it's time for the Clinton to correct everything.

Posted by: The Lifsons in Illinois | February 1, 2008 9:08 AM | Report abuse

For the life of me I can't figure out who could have watched that debate last night and conclude that Clinton would be better than Obama. They both went toe to toe on the issues almost to a stalemate. But everyone knows he is more inspirational and will not engender the same amount of hostility from the Republicans. And he was absolutely right in saying he can debate McCain better on Iraq because he wasn't flip flopping on the necessity of going to war. This isn't to say Hillary would be bad, I just really don't understand what people think they get with her that they don't get with Obama plus a little more. And I hate the experience argument. Abraham Lincoln was only a U.S. Congressman for two years, as well as a state legislator, before becoming President and almost everyone agrees he was one of our best Presidents of all time.

Posted by: Tyler | February 1, 2008 9:33 AM | Report abuse

Both are fairly simular and the debate proved that but my question is if Obama is the delegate, can he survive the machine, despite everything the dems debates have not really been that harsh, but the republican machine will make what everyone think Bill Clinton said seem light. They will find every find every cobweb, they will exploit his past drug use(and not in a nice way), they will talk about his family even his girls may not be protected. Look what they did the Chelsey, I am not sure he is really ready for this

Posted by: Andre | February 1, 2008 9:39 AM | Report abuse

moo is correct. Hillary out & out lied. Bill Clinton kicked the weapons inspectors out of Iraq in Dec '98 - not Saddam. The Washington Post reported the story correctly at the time (Dec 98-Jan 99), and the proceeded to ignore the facts in every subsequent story on those events for the last 9 years. In fact, at the time, the Post actually BROKE the story about what was behind the '98 bombing. It didn't have anything to do with WMDs - Clinton was trying to assassinate Saddam.

The other out & out LIE about this that Hillary made last night was that she voted for the Iraq authorization in order to pressure Saddam to let inspectors back in. Saddam had ALREADY let the inspectors back in a month BEFORE the Oct '02 vote.

Posted by: ray42 | February 1, 2008 9:54 AM | Report abuse

This is the problem with Hillaray... she spent a good deal of time last night trying to justify many erroneous decisions she made in the past: voting for the war - here Obama showed us she was trying to "misrepresent the truth". Hillary said, I was voting on a resolution... Obama said, Hillary the Title of the Bill was; "Authorization to use force in Iraq". How unclear can you be about that title? Hillary supported NY Mayor for illegals to get driver's licenses, there was public uproar and she changed her mind, Barack says, I know my decision is a politically difficult one, but I STAND BY my decision from day one and have not changed till today. The point here is that, we may not agree with Obama on some of his policies but the most meaningful aspect of his campaign is his INTEGRITY!!!! After what Americans have been through with Bush, we sure need a leader who will stay true to his word !!!!!! Another big thing which I dont hear many people discussing is that Obama is the ONLY candidate who wants to bring the AMERICAN PEOPLE into the decision making process ... TRANSPARENCY OF GOVERNMENT. Hillary could not agree with that last night.... why? Clearly, only a man with honest and decent intentions would be able to say, let the people know what is going on in government, let the people know their choices... put the power back in the hands of the people. We need Obama to take the filth out of Washington. OBAMA... FOR THE PEOPLE... BY THE PEOPLE

Posted by: nerakami | February 1, 2008 10:06 AM | Report abuse

Is it okay for me to vote for whomever I want? I hate to think that race is irrelevant because I want it to be so! I was so encouraged in those years preceding the OJ Simpson trial, that our country was getting ahead of the race issue. Then the race issue reared it's ugly head!

Race played an important part in S. Carolina. I did not make it so. I like Obama but the reality he will not become president even if he get's the nomination. But it is politically incorrect to say so.

The only way for a Black, or Hispanic to become president of this USA is to find themselves as a running mate to become the VP and then proceed from there. Other than that I don't see it happening.

Posted by: deon ganesh | February 1, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

I think it's GREAT for these reporters to check the facts on what candidates claim. When you have PROVEN LIARS and SPINNERS like Hillary and Billary, you had better check every word that comes out of their mouths.

Posted by: StephenT | February 1, 2008 10:39 AM | Report abuse

It's interesting to me that a couple of posts here question whether a black man could win the national election. HERE ARE A FEW FACTS:

First: a recent study found that Americans have more of a problem voting for a WOMAN PRESIDENT than for a BLACK PRESIDENT.

Second: The focus on whether Barack Obama, a black man, could win, rather than whether Hillary Clinton, a woman, could win, comes directly from the Clinton campaign. They have constantly tried to marginalize Obama on the basis of race, hoping for a white backlash vote against him.

Third: Several recent polls have indicated that Barack Obama has a better chance of winning the national election against John McCain than Hillary does.

Posted by: MichelleHyde | February 1, 2008 10:49 AM | Report abuse

It's clear from the fact-checking that her White House "experience" was extremely limited. Madeleine Albright was the real hero to Kosovars in 1999, not Hillary.

Posted by: jemd | February 1, 2008 11:13 AM | Report abuse

THANK YOU for reminding everyone that Sen. Obama only said he would be WILLING TO meet with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea--not that he definitely would. Sen. Clinton distorted his answer as soon as he gave it, and too many in the media published stories using her words instead of his. She steered attention away from the notion that not talking to our enemies can never lead to progress (Cuba is the perfect example of this), while talking to them might. Even the Bush administration eventually came around on this point when it decided to open negotiations with North Korea..

Posted by: Kelly | February 1, 2008 11:54 AM | Report abuse

Clinton suggested the Levin amendment which she voted against before authorizing the use of force would relinquish some of the USA's sovereignty to the U.N. That is silly. Carl Levin was the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Comm. His amendment was designed to slow down the march to war by directing the Administration to use U.N. inspectors one more time.
Remember, 23 Senators voted against authorizing force. Clinton acts as if misgivings about the intelligence at the time was unheard of. She voted for the invasion to show how tough she is.

Posted by: dennisE | February 1, 2008 11:57 AM | Report abuse

Fact checker: good job. Thanks.

DR. KSH--Review the difference between its and it's. (One pedantic comment deserves another.)

Posted by: PC | February 1, 2008 12:21 PM | Report abuse

Another "Fact Checker" column, another squandered opportunity to raise the quality of our political discourse. I suppose it would be disappointing if it were not par for the course at this tabloid rag.

Posted by: Anonymous | February 1, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

I actually saw John McCain say on camera that it doesn't make sense to cut taxes in time of war, so Obama was correct on that one.

Posted by: Nancy | February 1, 2008 1:15 PM | Report abuse

When is the press going to ask Hillary about Bill's brokering of a uranium deal with the president of Kazahkstan and his Canadian friend Frank Guistra in 2005? He received $131,000,000 for it and is now denying any wrong-doing after trying to keep it a secret for these last two years.
Looks like the same ol' same ol' stuff from the Clintons and we're doomed for more of the same if they get into the White house again.

Posted by: meggotty | February 1, 2008 2:18 PM | Report abuse

Getting close to the truth here. The 1998 years were a good indication of the future. The US attacked Iraq in an areial bombrdment, earlier the US attacked the buildings in Somalia and in Afghanistan (both soveriegn lands) with cruise missles. All of these attacks seem to have led to further retaliation by the enemy under attack. Now, for the record this was a Democratic leader authorizing this action, and yet, the Democratic candidates (including President Carter, Clinton, Roosevelt, Kennedy, and Wilson always seem to be the anti-war proponents.

Posted by: david | February 1, 2008 4:07 PM | Report abuse

The Clintons are big-time corperate dems...Hillary earned about 100,000k serving as a non functional on the board of wall mart...she says she was there to promote wage increases and womens rights. Do a fact check on that! You will be suprised that she did nothing! Another point, why doesnt anyone call on her on the following when she touts about "the fabulous clinton years" The Clinton's have been huge supporters Bushes and the Neocon's view of NEW WORLD ORDER. Clinton passed NAFTA. Nafta has proven to be probably the single most contributing factor of job losses in America, let alone how it has almost wiped out Mexican farmers! Ask yourself why Rupert Merdock sponsored a fund raising event for Hillary...ask yourself why big corps love the Billary!!! Please look into these facts. Shelly

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