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Posted at 7:35 PM ET, 10/ 2/2008

Vice Presidential Debate: St Louis

By Michael Dobbs

Iraq
11:15 p.m.
One of the sharpest exchanges in tonight's debate took place over Biden's insistence that he thought it was a "mistake" to go to war in Iraq and that he only supported legislation authorizing war "to keep the U.N. in line."

Palin scoffed at that as a typical "Washington" explanation. "Here you voted for the war and now you oppose the war," she said.

Indeed, it was widely understood at the time, October 2002, that war was a likely outcome of a "yes" vote, as President Bush was already massing a major invasion force in the Persian Gulf.

However, in his speech on the Senate floor in October 2003 explaining his vote, Biden did explain his view that the Senate resolution would help spur the United Nations to stiffen its efforts to compel Saddam Hussein to give up weapons of mass destruction.

"I do not believe this is a rush to war," Biden said at the time. "I believe it is a march to peace and security."
--Michael Abramowitz


Hamas
10:17 p.m.
Biden claimed that Obama warned against the administration's decision to push for Hamas participating in Palestinian legislative elections in early 2005. Obama had only been a senator for a few days when the election took place, but if he made such statements they did not appear in news reports or transcripts that are contained in the Nexis or Factiva news databases.

Obama was one of 70 members in the Senate who signed a letter a month before the Palestinian election expressing concern that Hamas was participating without disarming. The letter did not say a victory in the election would give Hamas credibility, but urged Bush to insist that Hamas adhere to "a basic set of principles before they can run for political office." Biden did not sign the letter.
--Glenn Kessler



Military
10:06 p.m.
Sarah Palin just asserted that Sen. Joseph Biden backed John McCain's military policies until this presidential race. That is flatly false. Biden was an outspoken opponent of President Bush's troop increases in Iraq as soon as Bush announced them after the 2006 elections. As Foreign Relations Committee Chairman, he led the most heated hearings before the troops were actually deployed.
--Jonathan Weisman



Diplomacy
10:00 p.m.
Biden said that McCain said he would not "sit down with the government of Spain." This is an overstatement. Biden is referring a recent interview McCain gave to a radio station, in which McCain did not appear to recognize the name of the Spanish prime minister.

"I'm willing to meet with any leader who is dedicated to the same principles and philosophy that we are for human rights, democracy and freedom and I will stand up to those who are not," McCain said, in comments that riled the Spanish government.

But in In an early-April interview with a reporter from Spanish newspaper El Pais, McCain said, "This is the moment to leave behind discrepancies with Spain" and said he would like the prime minister to visit the United States.
--Glenn Kessler


Iraq
9:55 p.m.
Sarah Palin oversimplified Obama's vote to stop funding U.S. troops in Iraq. She was referring to a Senate vote on May 24, 2007, on appropriations bill funding operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Obama was one of 14 senators who voted against the bill on the grounds that it did not set a timeline for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. Obama made clear that he was in favor of funding the troops, but could not agree to an indefinite extension of the war.

The previous month, most Senate Republicans voted against a Democratic bill (supported by Obama) that linked funding of the troops to the establishment of a timeline for withdrawal. McCain missed that vote.
--Michael Dobbs


Iraq
9:49 p.m.
Palin repeated a standard line offered by the McCain campaign--that Obama has not admitted the "surge" of additional troops in Iraq worked.

But in a September interview with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News, Obama said "the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated. . . I've already said it's succeeded beyond our wildest dreams."

Obama has not, however, retracted his opposition to the surge, and he has said political reconciliation still needs to take place in Iraq.
--Michael Abramowitz


Oil
9:47 p.m.
Gov. Palin suggested that the nearly $700 billion the U.S. spends a year on imported oil could be replaced by domestic sources. CNNMoney.com took estimates from various government agencies to conclude that crude oil production could be increased at most between 1 and 3 million barrels per day, on top of the 5 million barrels a day already produced domestically. The United States currently consumes about 20 million barrels a day, so an expansion of domestic drilling would make barely a dent in that amount unless consumption also is reduced.
--Glenn Kessler


Iraq
9:46 p.m.
Gov. Sarah Palin was erroneous when she claimed U.S. troop levels in Iraq are now at "pre-surge" levels. When President Bush announced last month that he would withdraw an additional 8,000 U.S. troops over the coming months, he committed to leaving at least 138,000 troops in the country at the end of his presidency, 3,000 more than there were before the troop increases known now as "the surge."
--Jonathan Weisman


Taxes
9:33 p.m.
Joe Biden mischaracterized McCain's proposal for giving Americans a tax credit to pay for their own health insurance programs in return for taxing the health benefits they receive from employers. He suggested that the average American family would lose around $7,000 on the deal, receiving a $5,000 tax credit in return for having to pay $12,000 for their own health care program.

In fact, the non-partisan Tax Policy Center has calculated that most American families would come out slightly ahead for the next decade at least. Higher-income Americans with expensive health care plans would be somewhat worse off after 2018.
--Michael Dobbs


Taxes
9:29 p.m.
Sen. Joseph Biden accused John McCain of offering big oil companies $4 billion in tax breaks. That is misleading. The figure comes from the share that the oil companies would get from McCain's corporate income tax cut proposal. He has not proposed a tax break solely for oil companies.
--Jonathan Weisman


Taxes
9:25 p.m.
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin signaled early she would go after Barack Obama all night on the charge that he had voted 94 times to either raise taxes or fight against tax cuts.
Fact check.org, a non-partisan watchdog, has analyzed the charge.

Of the 94, 23 of those votes were indeed votes against proposed tax cuts. Eleven of them were increases on families earning over $1 million to help fund programs such as Head Start and school nutrition. And 53 were on non-binding budget resolutions that foresaw allowing tax cuts to expire as scheduled. Such out-year projections are meaningless, since non-binding budgets are passed each year.
Fact.check.org ruled the claim misleading.

On another point, Palin said a tax hike that hits earners over $250,000 would hit "millions of small businesses." That is untrue. The vast majority of small businesses barely break even and do not pay the top tax brackets. To get that figure, Republicans count affluent taxpayers who claim some income from some small business income as "small businessmen."
--Jonathan Weisman


Taxes
9:20 p.m.
Sarah Palin repeated John McCain's claim that Barack Obama voted to increase taxes for every American earning more than $42,000 a year. This is a considerable stretch. Obama voted for a non-binding budget resolution that laid down general budgetary guidelines based on the assumption that the Bush tax cuts will expire, as scheduled, in 2011. The budget resolution did not represent a vote to raise taxes. Obama has said that he is in favor of continuing the Bush tax cuts for all but the wealthiest Americans.
--Michael Dobbs


Please join the Fact Checker and Friends for live truth squadding of tonight's vice presidential debate from Washington University in St. Louis. Fact Checker Michael Dobbs will be joined by diplomatic reporter Glenn Kessler, White House correspondent Michael Abramowitz, Congressional reporter Jonathan Weisman, and researcher Alice Crites. The Fact Check team will analyze statements by Joe Biden and Sarah Palin for accuracy and exaggeration.

Readers are invited to flag errors and misleading claims by either of the candidates by contributing to the on-line discussion. You can also use the "Contact the Fact Checker" tool to contact us privately with statements that you think deserve to be checked out.

The 90-minute debate will likely be the only face-to-face encounter between the two vice presidential candidates prior to the election, and will cover everything from foreign policy to the bailout to who is best qualified to be one heartbeat away from the presidency. Since this is a live Fact Check, we will dispense with Pinocchio awards this evening, and focus on giving you a quick guide on the truthfulness or otherwise of the candidates' claims. Let the Fact Checking commence!

By Michael Dobbs  | October 2, 2008; 7:35 PM ET
Categories:  Barack Obama, Live Fact Check  
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Next: Palin twists the facts on Darfur

Comments

At least "The Fact Checker" has such low expectations when it comes to all the fibs by Joe Biden -- so Dobbs even mentioning his name right now in the same sentence as "analyze statements ... for accuracy and exaggeration" is a victory -- fair and balanced, for sure.

Posted by: JakeD | October 2, 2008 8:46 PM | Report abuse

Watch Palin and Biden Practice for the Debate, http://www.Watchdebate.com They also have alot of polls there, to take after you watch the debate They Want Your Feed Back On the VP deabes? Who do you thing won? I cant wait to watch tonight. awsome.!!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 8:49 PM | Report abuse

"pastor"123:

Is that you?

Posted by: JakeD | October 2, 2008 8:51 PM | Report abuse

"errors", "misleading claims", "exaggeration", and... "otherwise"? I'm wondering if you're getting off to the wrong start by so assiduously avoiding the word "lie" right from the start. ;)

Posted by: bcreynolds | October 2, 2008 9:05 PM | Report abuse

Fact Check Ifill: Palin did answer what she and McCain would do if elected.

Posted by: JakeD | October 2, 2008 9:12 PM | Report abuse

Obama and tax increases, false, these were procedural votes, not tax increase votes.

Posted by: David U | October 2, 2008 9:15 PM | Report abuse

Palin reduced taxes in Alaska which lives on taxes from the test of the other states.

They get the oil taxes, and other government largess.

Posted by: David U | October 2, 2008 9:17 PM | Report abuse

Obama and tax increases, false, these were procedural votes, not tax increase votes.

Posted by: David U | October 2, 2008 9:21 PM | Report abuse

Where does Gwen Ifill get off saying Palin didn't answer the question? She's obviously in the tank for Obama. Big surprise.

Posted by: JakeD | October 2, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

Wow,30 minutes in, and only one fact deviation?

Posted by: John | October 2, 2008 9:30 PM | Report abuse

How about adhering to the format of the debate and question at hand.
Also, after mis-stating her state's contribution to the US energy supply, she still feels she's an expert?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 9:37 PM | Report abuse

Re: Palin's comments on energy independence.
1. Even if all the hoped for oil within our borders were harvestable- would last less than 8 years at current usage.
2. McCain's plan involves building 100 nuclear power plants in the next 25 years. Our nation doesn't hold the uranium needed to fuel those plants. How is that independence?

Posted by: oldhag | October 2, 2008 9:44 PM | Report abuse

"nucular"--At least twice. I cannot vote for someone who thinks "nucular" is a word.

Posted by: David | October 2, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

Did Glen Kessler mix up his millions and billions in the above oil fact check?

Posted by: X | October 2, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

Another 4 years of people that can't even say the word nuclear. Come on, is this a joke? When you break apart stats and stick to sound bites, its really easy to look good.

Breaking News: Raw Footage of the Pre-Debates showing the real Sarah Palin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOAm9ZCCpqg

Posted by: Adam | October 2, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

What happened to the Fact Checker debate post involving Biden's statement about McCain's comments in Keene, New Hampshire? It disappeared!

Posted by: dpg | October 2, 2008 9:52 PM | Report abuse

McCain never said we would be greeted as liberators.

Posted by: JakeD | October 2, 2008 9:53 PM | Report abuse

"The United States currently consumes about 20 million barrels annually" -- I think you mean per day. 20 million barrels of oil a day. It's insane.

Posted by: Jason | October 2, 2008 9:56 PM | Report abuse

Has she answered any questions?? She's a pro at dancing around facts. She's just rattling on, basically reciting a script!!

Posted by: PositiveOne | October 2, 2008 9:59 PM | Report abuse

Biden is kicking Bimbo Palins A$$! Half of the time she seems to be reading her comments... I am oh so glad McCrazy is telling her how to think! Once again she keeps repeating idiotic, lame, republican regurgitated talking points....God save us from Republicans....once again Democrats have to step in and clean up their mess...and OH! What a mess it is!!!!

Posted by: nallcando | October 2, 2008 10:03 PM | Report abuse

Questions? I'm not going to answer your questions like you think I should.

Nice.

Palin has directly avoided answering at least five questions.

Posted by: Questions | October 2, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

How come no one has mentioned that Obama is #2 in terms of donations from Fannie behind Dodd of CT? Doesn't this seem odd for someone (Obama) who seems to have argued "years ago" against the lending practices that ultimately caused the housing crisis?

Posted by: JCF | October 2, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

Um, excuse me... How about that HUGE whopper Biden said where he said it is a FACT that Global Warming is man made. I am sorry, even the most zealous proponents of GLobal Warming Hysteria agree that they can not conclusively prove that man's contribution to greenhouse gasses and/or other activities are causing global warming. The only fact is that the Earth's temperature has risen about 2 to 2.5 degrees F in the last 100 years. Now, that increase began in 1906!!! Hmmmm. How much carbon do you think the roughly 3 billion humans alive at the time were producing? How many power plants do you think existed considering the light bulb had just been invented 20 years before?

Posted by: Truth Detector | October 2, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

Governor Palin blatantly mischaracterized the Obama-Biden health care plan. She claimed that they would have the federal government assume complete control. In fact, they would simply require people to buy coverage in the existing private marketplace. This is a far cry from the nationalization Palin claimed.

Posted by: michael | October 2, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

Has she answered any questions?? She's a pro at dancing around facts. She's just rattling on, basically reciting a script!!

Posted by: PositiveOne | October 2, 2008 9:59 PM


LOL! This is so true! She's an idiot!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

I'm sorry but how is purchasing healthcare in the private sector any different than what folks can do today? The problem is it's TOO EXPENSIVE. So what will Obama do to get folks $ to pay for healthcare? Oh, right - tax increases to small businesses based on his $250K cap. The result, based on simple supply and demand, will be fewer jobs - giving more people less money to purchase healthcare. I'm all for change, but I need the change to make sense.

Posted by: re: michael | October 2, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

Biden is answering the questions and Palin is busy patting herself on the back as Governor.

If she says maverick one more time.

Posted by: Greetings001 | October 2, 2008 10:11 PM | Report abuse

hey there people,

did anyone else notice the use of "nucular" by Gov. Palin tonight...seems she needs the telepromper - with phonetic pronunciations - to get simple things right...she is holding her own though...i think we are watching a draw

Posted by: balanon | October 2, 2008 10:11 PM | Report abuse

is that palin? or is biden debating with tina fey?

i really cant tell

Posted by: baltanon | October 2, 2008 10:14 PM | Report abuse

Biden misstated the size of oil companies' tax breaks as $400 billion.

Posted by: Dave | October 2, 2008 10:15 PM | Report abuse

Weisman's fact-check on Biden's characterization of McCain's opposition to CTBT is itself misleading. It makes it seem like the whole statement was false. It is not. McCain clearly opposed the CTBT. See http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/ctbt/text/101299mccain.htm. Other Republicans also opposed it in line with the fact-check, but that's not the main point since this is about a McCain administration.

Posted by: dclaw | October 2, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

I think Biden stated that 95 percent of small businesses would not have taxes increased due to the fact that they would be below the cap.

Posted by: Michael | October 2, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

To baltanon

I think it's Tina Fey.

Posted by: PositiveOne | October 2, 2008 10:19 PM | Report abuse

Michael -

Where does the good senator get that number because it doesn't make sense? Taxes are based on adjusted gross income. But I'll concede the point to prove the bigger point. Let's look at big businesses - what happens when their taxes go up? Do they continue to grow jobs in the U.S. or do they move across the border to Mexico where labor costs and taxes are a mere fraction of what they are in the U.S.? It just can't be both ways - you can't grow jobs but raise minimum wage and taxes for businesses. It just won't work.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:21 PM | Report abuse

To balanon

Sorry this is no draw. She has avoided key questions. She has answered the questions that she has rehersed. That's not how the game is played. She clearly has LOST!!!

Posted by: PositiveOne | October 2, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

What does Palin know about sending kids to college????

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Do we think Sarah doesn't know what an Achilles' heel is?

Posted by: ebart79 | October 2, 2008 10:23 PM | Report abuse

I can't even pose questions about Palin's statements... I have no clue what she is saying. What's the deal with her topic jumping babbles? My infant is more on point.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

I think Biden stated that 95 percent of small businesses would not have taxes increased due to the fact that they would be below the cap.

Posted by: Michael | October 2, 2008 10:16

Actually he said small business owners, as on a personal level, of course the business itself would draw the tax increase. Democrat deception, as Obama's campaign has done all along. The facts just haven't supported the majority of the democrat ticket. Of course thats always blamed away as racism.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

It was Hezballah not Hamas right?

Posted by: Aude | October 2, 2008 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Watching her is like watching a high school drama!! It's all made up, not very interesting, and a simple recitation!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:32 PM | Report abuse

Palin hasn't said anything of substance. Yet again...just not a compelling leader.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:33 PM | Report abuse

"Gov. Palin suggested that the nearly $700 billion the U.S. spends a year on imported oil could be replaced by domestic sources."

Keep in mind that that could include alternative energy including wind, solar, hyrdo to replace home heating oil with electric alternatives.

Posted by: Michael | October 2, 2008 10:35 PM | Report abuse

OMG do a little history check on that one. Since ww2 every democrat ticket has left a falling economy. Every exiting republican ticket has left a growing economy. Carter's CRA Created the problem, slick willie's adjustments to it created a system that loaned money to people who couldn't afford it. and the dems blame bush. Always the blame game and NEVER any accountability AND STILL NO SOLUTION OR PLAN Biden lost this


Biden is kicking Bimbo Palins A$$! Half of the time she seems to be reading her comments... I am oh so glad McCrazy is telling her how to think! Once again she keeps repeating idiotic, lame, republican regurgitated talking points....God save us from Republicans....once again Democrats have to step in and clean up their mess...and OH! What a mess it is!!!!

Posted by: nallcando | October 2, 2008 10:03 PM

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Thanks, Fact Checkers, for this excellent public service. Your putting aside the Pinocchios in favor of literal descriptions, such as false and misleading, adds clarity. Thank you.

Posted by: jhbyer | October 2, 2008 10:36 PM | Report abuse

Biden is kicking Bimbo Palins A$$! Half of the time she seems to be reading her comments... I am oh so glad McCrazy is telling her how to think! Once again she keeps repeating idiotic, lame, republican regurgitated talking points....God save us from Republicans....once again Democrats have to step in and clean up their mess...and OH! What a mess it is!!!!

Posted by: nallcando | October 2, 2008 10:03 PM


But, but its a Democrat mess. Research instead of believing what you hear or are told. I know its hard to think for yourself, as an obominate but if you goggle the real culprits in this mess your find the truth

Posted by: Anonymous | October 2, 2008 10:40 PM | Report abuse

Nallcando, You are so right.

Posted by: PositiveOne | October 2, 2008 10:41 PM | Report abuse

Palin is answering the questions and Biden is busy patting himself on the back as his lies are caught

If he says McCain /Bush one more time.

Doesn't he know he's not running against BUSH

Posted by: BronotFooled | October 2, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

Nallcando: The research proves you wrong.

"I call the first fact the Great Partisan Growth Divide. Simply put, the United States economy has grown faster, on average, under Democratic presidents than under Republicans.

The stark contrast between the whiz-bang Clinton years and the dreary Bush years is familiar because it is so recent. But while it is extreme, it is not atypical. Data for the whole period from 1948 to 2007, during which Republicans occupied the White House for 34 years and Democrats for 26, show average annual growth of real gross national product of 1.64 percent per capita under Republican presidents versus 2.78 percent under Democrats."

Larry M. Bartels, a professor of political science at Princeton

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/business/31view.html?em

Posted by: Regan | October 2, 2008 10:44 PM | Report abuse

Biden won! Hands down. Palin needs to get outside of her Alaskan bubble. I think she had help with that tonight though. Because Biden totally burst her bubble.

Posted by: FactsOnly | October 2, 2008 10:46 PM | Report abuse

Do we think Sarah doesn't know what an Achilles' heel is?

Posted by: ebart79 | October 2, 2008 10:23 PM
_______

Really now, I mean look at the last guy we put in office who couldn't admit he was ever wrong.

Posted by: VA_Voter | October 2, 2008 10:48 PM | Report abuse

Point of fact:

Palin stated that McClellan is the general in Afghanistan.

McClellan was a general during the Civil War.

Gen. McKiernan is the general in charge of Afghanistan.

Posted by: JP2 | October 2, 2008 10:54 PM | Report abuse

Joe wants to be Vice-President and does not know that the Constitution Article One is not about the Executive Branch....It is about the Legislative Branch. LOL, come on Joe.

Posted by: Darin | October 2, 2008 10:55 PM | Report abuse

More distortions and misstatements from Palin--and she is called on none of it. An atrocious performance by Gwen Ifill, who apparently considered her role to be that of timekeeper only. I am so tired of hearing Palin and McCain rehash the same discredited talking points and false claims about their opponents and not get called on it. This is not acceptable. Platitudes, lies, distortions, nice-sounding words.

Posted by: harrisco | October 2, 2008 10:57 PM | Report abuse

Gwen:"Gov. Palin, what will you do for health care?"

Palin:"We are going to shake things up. I was mayor, and when I was governor, maverick, change is coming and enough."

Gwen:"Gov. Palin, what are your views on taxes?"

Palin:"We are going to shake things up. I was mayor, and when I was governor, maverick, change is coming and enough."

Gwen:"Gov. Palin, what are your views on America's role in the world?"

Palin:"We are going to shake things up. I was mayor, and when I was governor, maverick, change is coming and enough."

Yeah, I am so glad I didn't play any drinking games!

Posted by: VA_Voter | October 2, 2008 10:59 PM | Report abuse

All I heard from this talking Moose Head Barbie was we need too we need too we need too... instead of we are going too..

Posted by: John | October 2, 2008 10:59 PM | Report abuse

Biden was wrong when he said that we have spent in one month in Iraq than what we have spent the entire 7 years we were in Afghanistan.

Posted by: Jaye | October 2, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse


Who won the vice presidential debate at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri?

http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=3626


.

Posted by: DBlake | October 2, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

Biden misstated the theory of the Vice Presidency as a part of the legislative branch by claiming that it was a bizarre theory dreamed up by VP Cheney. In fact, many figures in American history have had similar notions of the Vice Presidency, including Pres. Eisenhower. See Arthur Slesinger's 1974 article on the Vice Presidency in the Atlantic Monthly.

And those of you who can't abide "nucular," get over yourselves! Jimmy Carter, a one-time "nucular" engineer pronounces it "nucular."

Posted by: Wilbur | October 2, 2008 11:00 PM | Report abuse

In response to someone claiming that McCain's $5,000 tax credit for health insurance would not end up costing us more, Biden's point, which was not made clearly, was that McCain's tax on health benefits would force many employers to stop offering it, and then we'd be forced to get individual health insurance, which is outrageously--I dare say criminally--expensive.

Posted by: Joe Mazzilli | October 2, 2008 11:01 PM | Report abuse

From:
Head of State
http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/10/shorter-debate.html

Thursday, October 02, 2008
Shorter Debate

Part I: Palin did not answer questions directly.

Part II: Biden incredibly strong--pointed out Palin "I heard no plan" on Iraq, very strong on economic and FP issues.

Veep issue devastating against Palin--actually claimed broader powers for VP, clearly without knowing actual constitutional powers. Biden powerful on Cheney--dials way up.

And then...The turning point. The Biden tears. After that, Biden was most clear, passionate and strong, and from there, Palin was gibberish.

Biden win.

From:
Head of State
http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/10/shorter-debate.html

Posted by: Jana Walker | October 2, 2008 11:02 PM | Report abuse

I wish they'd stop the "Maverick" thing. Its really embarrassing.

Posted by: matt | October 2, 2008 11:10 PM | Report abuse

CNN:

National poll of Debate Watchers:

Who won:

Biden: 51%

Palin: 36%

Posted by: Jana Walter | October 2, 2008 11:14 PM | Report abuse

Sarah Palin said that Barack Obama would mandate health care and that he wants a government-run health care system. That point caught my attention because I remembered that the mandate issue was a point of difference between him and Hillary Clinton, and so I checked PolitiFact.com and BarackObama.com. The sites said that he would only require a mandate for children, and that his plan would expand options for adults who are uninsured. His plan still retains elements of a free-market insurance system but proposes to make it more efficient.

Posted by: Saadia | October 2, 2008 11:22 PM | Report abuse

On health care: Biden did not claim that the "average American family" would be out $7000. He said that *if your employer cuts your coverage,* you'd be left trying to buy a $12000 plan with a $5000 credit. He said that would likely happen to about 20 million Americans. He made no claim about the average family, and what he did say about the 20 million unluckiest people, if anything, was overly generous to the McCain plan, because it does not take into account the fact that replacing your health insurance on the individual market would cost you more than the $12000 average your employer pays on the group market.

Posted by: SS | October 2, 2008 11:23 PM | Report abuse

there are no spanish troopw in iraq now they were withdrawn by the new spanish prime minister may 21 2004.

this prime minister denounced pres. bush.after he was elected


joe biden was wrong on his statement in tonights debate

Posted by: bernard falchook | October 2, 2008 11:24 PM | Report abuse

Thank you for this service. It is very helpful, specifically for someone really trying to sort it out. I have to say, the substance of these fact checks seems to boil down tonight to this: Governor Palin's willing to tell untruths to the viewer with a straight face and directly into the camera. Senator Biden seems to flub a fact here and there but answer the questions and show respect for the process. It did worry me that she feels so unaccountable to the rules or to the truth, which she has to know will come out in the morning. At least that's what it looked like to me tonight.

Posted by: david | October 2, 2008 11:37 PM | Report abuse

To SS

Any employer that's paying $12,000 per employee for health insurance is either an idiot or being massively ripped off.

I run a small company that carries insurance on our employees and the average insurance premium (per employee) is about $3600 per year!!!! Which is well within the $5000 limit.

In addition, if you go Blue Cross's web site and price out individual policies, you'll find that you can get catastrophic insurance coverage (which is what most people require) for just about $200 per month.

Get off the Dem talking points and think for yourself. Research the issues for yourself and you'll find the truth!!!!

Posted by: Nick | October 2, 2008 11:37 PM | Report abuse

Can we please put to rest the fiction that Barack Obama EVER said he favored impromptu presidential chats foreign leaders with no purpose, no agenda and no preparation? There is not a thing in anything Obama has every said that even hinted that he would he would sit down with hostile or allied leaders out of the blue.

All these purported "contradictions" of Obama's position that propose that diplomacy first before summit meetings are inane. And how, without diplomatic overtures, does anyone think presidents arrange to meet? Pick up the red phone and see whether Vladimir and Dmitry have time for soup and sandwich?

Obama knows this too well to even imagine the idiotic scenario the Republicans keep suggesting that he favored. This is pure fabrication -- can Fact Checker please hammer this one until it's dead?

Posted by: Valerie | October 2, 2008 11:39 PM | Report abuse

Jakes D - McCain did say several times that we would be greeted as liberators.

* On the March 12, 2003, edition of MSNBC's Hardball, host Chris Matthews asked McCain: "Do you believe that the people of Iraq or at least a large number of them will treat us as liberators?" McCain answered: "Absolutely. Absolutely."

* On the March 24, 2003, edition of Hardball -- several days after a U.S.-led coalition had invaded Iraq -- McCain said: "[T]here's no doubt in my mind that we will prevail and there's no doubt in my mind, once these people are gone, that we will be welcomed as liberators."

Posted by: Sandy | October 2, 2008 11:52 PM | Report abuse

After the first presidential debate, a similar survey showed that more uncommitted voters identified Barack Obama as the winner

Final numbers from tonight's poll have yet to come in, but we do have some early results. (These numbers may change as more respondents complete the survey.) They suggest that once again more voters have responded favorably to the Democratic candidate.

Forty-six percent of the uncommitted voters surveyed say Democrat Joe Biden won the debate, compared to 21 percent for Republican Sarah Palin. Thirty-three percent said it was a tie.

Eighteen percent of previously uncommitted percent say they are now committed to the Obama-Biden ticket. Ten percent say they are now committed to McCain-Palin. Seventy-one percent are still uncommitted.

Both candidates improved their overall image tonight. Fifty-three percent of those surveyed say they now have a better impression of Biden. Five percent say they have a worse opinion of the Delaware senator, while 42 percent say they debate did not change their opinion.

Fifty-five percent say they now have a better opinion of Palin. Fourteen percent say they have a worse opinion, while 30 percent say their opinion hasn't changed.

After the debate, 66 percent see Palin as knowledgeable about important issues – up from 43 percent before the debate. But Biden still has the advantage on this – 98 percent saw him as knowledgeable after the debate. That figure was 79 percent before the debate.

http://news.google.com/news?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tab=wn&q=cbs+poll&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=h&as_mind=1&as_minm=10&as_maxd=2&as_maxm=10&nolr=1

Posted by: ripley | October 2, 2008 11:57 PM | Report abuse

McCain Health Care Plan - independent analyses conclude that taxing employer-provided health care, will result in millions losing health benefits through their employer. Also, the goal of the McCain plan is to move people into private insurance.

FactCheck.org has analyzed McCain's plan.

Here's a study published Sept 16.n Anyone interested in the impact of McCain's plan should read this study.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.27.6.w472/DC1

One small part of that study:

For our analysis, we took a middle-range estimate from these studies and assumed that the elimination of the income tax preference for employer-sponsored insurance would cause twenty million Americans to lose such coverage. We note, however, that the effect could be much larger. Studies suggest that many employers would be quick to drop health benefits in response to a major policy change, such as the McCain plan,hat greatly altered the business case for offering benefits.

and regarding moving to private insurance:

One reason that nongroup plans appear less costly is that they offer less coverage. The typical deductible in nongroup plans is about $2,750, compared to about $1,000 for group policies.20 Coinsurance rates average 26 percent in nongroup plans, compared to 20 percent in a typical employer-based plan. For plans with copayments, the average copayment in the nongroup market is between $30 and $40 per doctor visit, well above that of group plans. Many services are not covered at all. Thus, much of the apparent savings from shifting to nongroup coverage would be offset by higher out-of-pocket costs for care.

Posted by: Sandy | October 3, 2008 12:27 AM | Report abuse

Sandy:

Thank you for proving that McCain didn't say "liberators" unqualified like Cheney did. When the terrorists are gone, we will be then liberators, whether Dems want to admit it or not.

See above re: Biden's actual lies about Iraq war resolution, etc.

Posted by: JakeD | October 3, 2008 12:29 AM | Report abuse

Are you also taking issue with the Fact Checker analysis on McCain's heathcare plan? If so, can you specifically quote which part?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 12:32 AM | Report abuse

McCain said he wouldn't sit down with the Spanish PM in the debate! How is Biden's comment untrue? Fact check is wrong!!

Posted by: nine | October 3, 2008 12:36 AM | Report abuse

Wow! The votes for Biden-12%...Palin-86%. So many of these comments are polar opposites of the vast majority of responders. Seems to me the bloggers are out of touch and unnecessarily negative when a factual evaluation would be far more productive. Lets try harder to have a more objective viewpoint. The Fact Checker does help by putting everything back into context.

Posted by: neutral observer | October 3, 2008 12:44 AM | Report abuse

Sarah kicked Biden's ass. I am a lot older than the rest of you and Biden is lying thru his teeth. Everything he said he did he didn't Go Sarah.

Posted by: Scorpio | October 3, 2008 12:45 AM | Report abuse

BIDEN.... politics as usual, overblown posturing, distortions and regurgitated bull with big ideas of give-away projects paid for on the backs of those that work their asses off trying to make their small business successful. A good ole boy entrenched for 35 years in the bogus crap pork spending in Washington. A man who won't even acknowledge let alone accept an ounce of party responsibility for what his cronies have done with Fannie and Freddie, Acorn, and the Community Reinvestment Act. Not only won't take responsibility, he tried to make that his party was pushing regulation against it! (google it and watch the video of the Dem reaction when regulation and reform was being called for.)

PALIN... comes in after 5 weeks of bashing and ridicule, has the gall to speak up about Americans taking personal responsibility for their actions (or lack thereof), exhibits and believes in national pride, is unashamed of our military strength and doesn't seem to think we need the permission of other countries to use it, is focused on winning the war against the slime ball terrorists who would kill every single one of us and every single person in Israel if they could, strongly believes in energy independence and has the experience and knowledge to help get us there, is an advocate for political reform, is unapologetic for and holds firm to her personal convictions regarding abortion and gay marriage while standing firmly behind every American's right to do the same.... and she puts the needs of people before the rights of polar bears and moose.

I'd call it a slam dunk for Palin.

Posted by: kmp | October 3, 2008 12:49 AM | Report abuse

kmp - terrorists will come and go - I know that from my experience in the UK and Spain - but the way that the US economy has been brought to its knees will haunt US citizens for years to come, and will probably have a damn sight more impact on their lives. Palin may enjoy wallowing military might, and she may empathize with the average Joe on Main Street, but do you seriously imagine that she and McCain are capable of sorting out the mess that their party created.

For my part, a much better performance from Biden than I expected.

Posted by: DC | October 3, 2008 1:23 AM | Report abuse

I think Palin won.

Posted by: JakeD | October 3, 2008 1:32 AM | Report abuse

when she said mcain knows how to win a war, what war was she talking about?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 1:44 AM | Report abuse

It was Hezballah not Hamas right?

Posted by: Aude | October 2, 2008 10:28

#1 it's spelled Hezbollah

#2 if you knew what Hamas was you wouldn't have to ask that question.

Posted by: red dragon | October 3, 2008 1:46 AM | Report abuse

Here's the thing about McCain meeting with the PM of Spain. Yes, he probably did just misunderstand the reporter. But rather than admitting that, he dug in his heels and insisted that he wouldn't commit to meeting Zapatero. And in the first debate, when Obama brought it up, he essentially confirmed it, saying something about how he wouldn't plan the White House guest list in advance.

If McCain is going to stick with that line, Obama/Biden are perfectly within their rights to attack him on it.

Posted by: Zorro for the Common Good | October 3, 2008 1:49 AM | Report abuse

cnn has biden at 51% - palin at 36%
where did those other % come from?
all the polls I have seen have biden as the winner.
now palin scores high in exceeding expectations, but not at winning.
apparently answering the questions made a difference.

Posted by: hope | October 3, 2008 2:01 AM | Report abuse

To Nick, Mr small business owner.

I too run a small business, and the 12,000 dollar figure is accurate for most "families" the primary talking point of that part of the debate. 12,000 is not even accurate.
Most guys I got working for me who are married and have at least 2 children, those costs are near 13 and 14,000 a year.

Posted by: cray | October 3, 2008 2:10 AM | Report abuse

In Sarah Palin's closing speech she said that she was grateful to get to talk to the American people without the filter of the mainstream media. Isn't this the same woman who refused to answer questions in an ice cream shop recently or even at rallies attended by her enthusiastic supporters?

Posted by: Jason | October 3, 2008 2:11 AM | Report abuse

Nick, my individual health insurance costs over $800 per month.

-------------------------------

Any employer that's paying $12,000 per employee for health insurance is either an idiot or being massively ripped off.

Posted by: Nick | October 2, 2008 11:37 PM

Posted by: Walt | October 3, 2008 2:11 AM | Report abuse

The Fact is Biden presented the wrong way of doing things in/for America VERY WELL..Fact is the U.S.Media has become nearly criminal, in their own way, of backing political parties and using their position as a Bully Pulpit to cram their skewed views down your throat...Leave your citizen papers at the door and take your Socialism and Liberal Views over to France and the rest of Europe...Take O'Bama, Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, Frank and the rest of America who believe in getting something for nothing from the vote buying Democrats with you..Saying anything and everything you want to hear is what they're good at ..You know there was a time when Democrats truly were an American Party [ Republicans are no better, but that's another day ]..nowadays they're mostly lefties who have the delusion that this is Canada or France or some other country..That they know what is good for you,how to run things and that they can lead you to the new Shangri-La while asking that you trust them to hold your Cookie Jar [As evidenced by the great way congress runs things]. Well I say wake up America and always think for your selves, don't fall victim to the sham..Yes it's good to want to believe we can but as Americans we have not only believed we can, but have succeeded in accomplishing things most countries only dream of..why? Because throughout most of our history we have believed in our selves and not let anyone do our thinking for us..Please don't fall victim to the Fears and Frustrations of the times..we have had worse..Stay Individually Strong and Stay American.
-New Sons OF Liberty

Posted by: New Son of Liberty | October 3, 2008 2:38 AM | Report abuse

From "Fact of The Matter
http://www.need4trth.blogspot.com

The debate with Senator Biden and Governor Palin was interesting yet, instructional. Governor Palin demonstrated tonight that she is really a PUPPETTED MOUTHPIECE of the Republican Party. On a personal note: I became convinced the Gov. Sarah Palin was a forced choice for VP on the Republican side, that it was last minute, and that it was totally for 'POLITICAL EXPEDIENCY'.

Tonight we saw an image, a very beautiful, dressed up, republican image, of an RNC,, SYCOPHANT. Perfect analogy. Dictionary.com defines sycophant as a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite. In modern terms, "A yes man/woman, flunky fawner, flatterer. Nothing more. Governor Palin demonstrated this perfectly. She in other words was the perfect "republican talking point".

Governor Palin tried to attack Senator Biden on supposedly flip-flopping on issues of which he now agrees with Senator Obama and at one point had agreed and supposedly even endorsed Bush/McCain's war strategies. This accusation led Senator biden to trounce the policies of Bush/McCain by pointing out the failures of hese policies especially our position in NATO as to not be a dictatorship, as Bush/McCain have allowed and endorsed as diplomatic policy. It was a wonderful moment of silencing a someone parroting a republican lie. I loved the fact that Senator Biden used the term of the title of this blog "Fact of the Matter." The Fact of The Matter is Governor Palin came out on the stage to Parrot Lies.

One of the most defining arguments occurred when Governor Palin endorsed The Bush Cheney, idea of what is the job of the vice president. Senator Biden pointed it out that the Constitutions latitude for the Vice President was very smaller than that of which Cheney abused it's powers as. The defining job of the Vice Presidents role is two things, in the unfortunate event that the sitting President dies the Vice President then steps in to that office. the other definition of the office of Vice President is too be the tie breaker in the senate vote. Biden knocked that one out of the ballpark.


THE MAVERICK REFORMER IMAGE OF JOHN MCCAIN STRIPPED AND LAID BARE FOR WHAT IT IS A LIE......

One final comment I have is this the title, "Maverick", which the Corporate Media has invented for John McCain, was thoroughly undone when Biden went down the voting record of a POLITICAL YES-MAN that is McCain's TRUE record. Many things which have adversely affected our economy, our standing in the world, but especially Main Street. John McCain has shown non support for the regular American person, which would constitute a Maverick standing. It was pointed out that McCain sided with Bush on all of the failed policies of this Administration. I LOVED IT.

I have felt that the Corporate Media and Senator McCain use that title as well as his supposed Hero status much too loosely. General Wesley Clarke pointed out RIGHTLY that getting shot down while in an airplane doing illegal maneuvers, and becoming a POW was not the LITMUS TEST for Presidential readiness.


FINAL COMMENTS.....

In Bidens final statements he brought up this point about what the RNC and John McCain has been engaging in during this campaign. He said He, like Senator Obama would NEVER question the motive of someones ambition for the office of public service. John McCain has engaged in this UGLY STYLE OF CAMPAIGN EVEN AFTER HE PROMISED HE WOULD NOT. Governor Palin in her attacks endorsed john McCain and the RNC's political strategies. She in a sense said, "John's lying and being very ugly and demonstrating political immaturity, I'm Governor Sarah Palin and I approve this propaganda style campaigning."

Now for the facts from Factcheck the Wire :

Troop Levels Off
Palin got her numbers wrong on troop levels when she said that troops were now down to “pre-surge” levels. The surge was announced in January 2007, at which point there were 132,000 troops in Iraq according to the Brookings Institute Iraq Index. As of September 2008, that number was 146,000. President Bush recently announced that another 8,000 would be coming home by February of next year. But that would still be 6,000 more than when the surge began.

Posted under FactCheck.org

This post was written by Justin Bank on October 2, 2008

Killing Afghan Civilians?
Obama did say that troops in Afghanistan were killing civilians, a claim that Palin calls “untrue.” Here’s the whole quote, from a campaign stop in New Hampshire:

Obama, August 2007: We’ve got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we’re not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there.

The Associated Press fact-checked this one, and found that in fact U.S troops were killing more civilians at the time than insurgents: “As of Aug. 1, the AP count shows that while militants killed 231 civilians in attacks in 2007, Western forces killed 286. Another 20 were killed in crossfire that can’t be attributed to one party.” Afghan president Hamid Karzai had expressed concern about these civilian killings, a concern President Bush said he shared.

Posted under FactCheck.org

This post was written by Jess Henig on October 2, 2008

2005 Energy Bill Deja Vu
Palin threw out an old canard when she criticized Obama for voting for the 2005 Energy bill, saying, “that’s what gave those oil companies those big tax breaks.”
It’s a false attack Clinton used against Obama in the primary and McCain himself has hurled. It’s true that the bill gave some tax breaks to oil companies, but it also took away others. And according to the Congressional Research Service, the bill created a slight net increase in taxes for the oil industry.

Posted under Barack Obama, FactCheck.org

This post was written by Justin Bank on October 2, 2008

The Iraqi Surplus
Biden said that Iraq had an “$80 billion surplus.” Obama said the same — $79 billion — in the last debate, and we called him on it then. Seventy-nine billion is an out-of-date projection. The Iraqis currently have $29 billion in the bank, and could have $47 billion to $59 billion by the end of the year.

Posted under FactCheck.org

This post was written by Jess Henig on October 2, 2008

Obama Voted Against Troop Funding?
Palin repeated the claim that Obama “voted against funding our troops.” The claim refers to a single 2007 vote against a war funding bill. Obama voted for a version of the bill that included language calling for withdrawing troops from Iraq. President Bush vetoed it. (McCain supported that veto, but didn’t call it “vetoing support for our troops.”) What Obama voted against was the same bill without withdrawal language. And he had voted yes on at least 10 other war funding bills prior to that single 2007 no vote.


Posted under FactCheck.org

Posted by: need4trth | October 3, 2008 2:49 AM | Report abuse

bernard falchook wrote:
there are no spanish troopw in iraq now they were withdrawn by the new spanish prime minister may 21 2004.
this prime minister denounced pres. bush.after he was elected
joe biden was wrong on his statement in tonights debate

Nope. You're wrong. Here's what Biden actually said:
'The last point I'll make, John McCain said as recently as a couple of weeks ago he wouldn't even sit down with the government of Spain, a NATO ally that has troops in Afghanistan with us now. I find that incredible.'

Spain IS a NATO ally

Spain DOES have troops in Afghanistan with us now

McCain did balk at meeting with the Spanish prime minister. Dobbs is being overly generous to McCain when he says:
...McCain did not appear to recognize the name of the Spanish prime minister.

The interviewer stopped McCain and clarified to him that she was talking about the prime minister of Spain but McCain stuck to his statement anyway.

Posted by: bobcn | October 3, 2008 3:55 AM | Report abuse

In order to really understand what Sarah Palin's really meant, I am waiting for Saturday Night Life, where Tina Fay will translate for us.
-Otherwise, as far as I'm correct, Biden won.

Posted by: El Mugroso | October 3, 2008 3:58 AM | Report abuse

The Governor reminded me of nothing so much as a brilliant spokesperson in the service of M&Ms or Playtex Living Gloves. Really. If she was any more sincere and folksy she could have taken the place of Captain Kangaroo when he passed on. If the President dies, and either Biden takes over or Palin takes over - I'm incredulous that anyone would seriously posit that the Governor is more fit for the job. She lights up the television screen for sure; but who would really say that she communicates the kind of intelligence or strength of character to lead/rally a nation and negotiate/confront a tough world in the aftermath of the death of the Chief Executive. Could she give a sufficiently maudlin speech to stir our hearts like a good episode of "Little House on the Prairie"? Absolutely. Is that who I'd like to see at the helm of the most powerful starfleet in the galaxy. Forget about it.

Finally, it seems pretty simple.....8 years ago, the Republicans took control and ran the show. Prior to that, they controlled the legislature for 6 years. That equals 14 years of republican political dominance at the legislative level coupled with 8 years at the Exec level. If you are satisfied with the results of that leadership, by all means vote the Republican ticket. For myself, their stewardship of the country has been so disastrous that they are an embarrassment to the term politician, and that takes some doing. The Senator from Arizona has spent 26 years in Washington within the club. The term Maverick belongs with James Garner, not John McCain. One thing is for sure, the Democrats deserve the opportunity to see if they can do better. The bar is so low, they can hardly do worse. And I'd rather see a genuinely intelligent person as the head of this state. we all have seen what happens when a folksy, tough, driven man prevails without the mind for the job. We wind up where we are, which is a lousy place indeed. It is definitely time for a change, and definitely that change will not come under McCain.

Posted by: Pongo | October 3, 2008 4:12 AM | Report abuse

"Truth Detector", you need to take a science class and hopefully become a little educated.

Posted by: iaacog | October 3, 2008 4:46 AM | Report abuse

Nallcando: The research proves you wrong.

"I call the first fact the Great Partisan Growth Divide. Simply put, the United States economy has grown faster, on average, under Democratic presidents than under Republicans.

The stark contrast between the whiz-bang Clinton years and the dreary Bush years is familiar because it is so recent. But while it is extreme, it is not atypical. Data for the whole period from 1948 to 2007, during which Republicans occupied the White House for 34 years and Democrats for 26, show average annual growth of real gross national product of 1.64 percent per capita under Republican presidents versus 2.78 percent under Democrats."

Larry M. Bartels, a professor of political science at Princeton

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/business/31view.html?em

Posted by: Regan | October 2, 2008 10:44 PM


No, Regan, the propaganda proves YOU wrong, this "research" is done by an "advisor to many democratic presidential candidates"
Do you read the whole articles or just grab quick headlines...
Or do you just believe everything you read.

Posted by: Anon | October 3, 2008 4:58 AM | Report abuse

Jonathan and Michael:

Your fact checking on the test ban treaty can hardly be called fact checking.

You say that Biden is "wrong" when he said McCain opposed the comprehensive nuclear test ban and that virtually every other Republican supported it.

President Clinton DID submit the CTBT (Sept. 23, 1997) and there was a vote in the Senate on Oct. 13, 1999. McCain voted "no" but said afterwards that the Senate can and should reconsider the treaty. He repeated this in a May 27, 2008 speech. Obama has said he will pursue ratification as soon as practicable.

Virtually every other Republican at the time opposed it. Three Republican presidents pursued it (Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford) and three (Reagan, the Bushes)it can be said did not. Today, fmr. Secretaries of State Shultz and Kissinger, Def. Sec. Perry, and a bipartisan group of fmr. officials are calling for the initiation of a bipartisan process to reconsider and approve the treaty.

-Daryl Kimball, executive director, Arms Control Association

Posted by: Daryl Kimball | October 3, 2008 7:21 AM | Report abuse

i wonder if there have been any studies done to give a % of those people who have used a refund check to buy/pay for what it was meant to do. if mccain gives us a $5000 insurance incentive check, what % of people will go out and buy insurance? what % will pay bills, buy food or spend it some other way? then, in a few months the money will be gone and the individual will still have no insurance. maybe a forced insurance payment, payroll deduction, is a better answer.

Posted by: judy | October 3, 2008 8:13 AM | Report abuse

Daryl's comment above is instructive. I am struck by the "fact checking" that did and DID NOT get done. A simple example: suppression by the McCain operatives of the investigation in Alaska about Palin's conduct as governor while she touts reform, transparency, etc.; debt increases during her time as mayor, etc.

A lot of pundits quote you as a source of objectivity. The things you failed to fact check make that assumption suspect at best. Cherry-picking is not objectivity.

The mainstream media needs a new resource on fact checking. This one is not to be trusted.

Posted by: PBKritek | October 3, 2008 8:32 AM | Report abuse

Not really a fact check but something that McCain will have to answer for. Palin said that when McCain said the economic fundamentals are sound he was refering to the hardworking American people.

I spun around in my chair since the spin was so fantastic. But there it was.

Considering the continuing economic turmoil, McCain will certainly be dogged with questions of whether Palin got that right, that McCain was refering to "working Americans" as the fundamentals of the economy.

If he says yes, it will be from a desperate man who has lost all his ethics. If he says no he shows Palin to be a liar, or exaggerater at best. No one seems to be talking about this gaffe, but it was the biggest I heard during the debate. And I predict it will grow and be repeated. Look for it on SNL tomorrow, it was a whopper.

Posted by: Fate | October 3, 2008 8:44 AM | Report abuse

Diplomacy
10:00 p.m.
Biden said that McCain said he would not "sit down with the government of Spain." This is an overstatement.
...
--Glenn Kessler

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/18/mccain_slights_spanish_prime_m.html

McCain foreign policy adviser Randy Sheunemann said McCain's answer was intentional.

"The questioner asked several times about Senator McCain's willingness to meet Zapatero (and id'd him in the question so there is no doubt Senator McCain knew exactly to whom the question referred). Senator McCain refused to commit to a White House meeting with President Zapatero in this interview," he said in an e-mail.

============
Is Glenn Kessler accusing the McCain campaign of lying?

Posted by: zukermand | October 3, 2008 8:50 AM | Report abuse

Should I be surprised that the "Fact-Checkers" gave Biden a pass for his ridiculous claim to have helped put "100,000 cops" on the street?

This goes back to Bill Clinton's term in office, and is a number has been debunked countless times, so I was surprised Biden still mentioned it....let alone mentioned it TWICE in last nights debate!

And considering the Fact-Checkers went to the length to call out Palin's assertion that troops would be down to pre-surge levels (which was off by 3,000 out of 135,000), I'm surprised their calculators didn't have a similar zeal to catch Biden for this "100,000 cops" whopper, when the real number is a fraction of that (most put the real number at maybe 20,000).

Of course I jest, because I'm not surprised at all.....Biden/Obama claims and promises, as usual, will continue to get only cursory review by our beloved liberal-leaning media. McCain and Palin, meanwhile, will continue to have every syllable parsed for potential misstatements.

Good job, Post Fact-Checkers. You rose again to the challenge of proving why most Americans find you to be biased.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

The Madam Governor stated that Alaska has untapped trillions of barrels of oil that will make us self sufficient. Looks like she was most likely referring to al that glacial ice that is melting. In fact if the ice does melt and Alaska will end up with much milder winters, and if the pentecostal evangelicals with their religion can change to sunlight pattern perhaps Alaska can become a agriculture haven.

Posted by: Winemaster2 | October 3, 2008 8:54 AM | Report abuse

Fate:

You must not be paying attention much. McCain himself clarified his statement of the "fundamentals of the economy" referring to the workforce within hours of the original quote. McCain has repeated it many times since, including in his own debate last week.

Palin didn't say anything new when she made that statement last night. So you can continue to spin in your chair :o).

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 8:54 AM | Report abuse

Winemaster2:

....and when an Obama supporter has nothing legitimate to say, they quickly resort to the religious bigotry card. Your liberal version of 'tolerance' has been noted...

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 8:56 AM | Report abuse

McCain never said we would be greeted as liberators.

Posted by: JakeD
============

...and Sarah Palin never said "thanks, but no thanks" to congress.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 9:00 AM | Report abuse

Dobbs makes an error in fact-checking the amount of health care costs in the US. He relies on an outside source to inform him that health care will not be a problem for Americans until "2018". THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

The average single american pays $4700 a year in health care insurance costs. This is now usually subsidized by an employer who pays about 2/3 the cost. McCain is offering Americans $2500 a year in (indirect; paid directly to insurance companies) credits for health care. This idea is about $2200 worse than Obama's for any single American. For me, a young professional in New York, I would pay $1000 more a year for McCain's plan than I currently do. THAT IS A McCAIN TAX HIKE ON ME. I make around $50000 a year. That's a lot of my money.

For a family, especially a large family, this McCain tax plan would amount to a huge increase in expenses.

Posted by: BobSantos | October 3, 2008 9:00 AM | Report abuse

"Indeed, it was widely understood at the time, October 2002, that war was a likely outcome of a "yes" vote, as President Bush was already massing a major invasion force in the Persian Gulf.
...
--Michael Abramowitz

===================

Bush was also denying he intended to go to war. Is Mr Abramowitz accusing the President of lying. That seems bold.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 9:02 AM | Report abuse

judy:
"if mccain gives us a $5000 insurance incentive check, what % of people will go out....and spend it some other way? in a few months the money will be gone and the individual will still have no insurance. maybe a forced insurance payment, payroll deduction, is a better answer."

Your assumption fits real nicely with Obama and liberal ideology, which assumes people are stupid and need big-government to take care of them because they can't do it themselves. Obama and liberals believe they are smarter than everyone else, so we should just give them more of our money via taxes because they know how to spend it better than we do.

Liberal ideology turns people into mind-numbed, government-dependent, victims of circumstance.

If you need proof, do a bit of research. Look up the top 10 city/metro areas in the U.S. with the highest poverty rates. Now dig back and find out the last time any of those cities DIDN'T have Democrats running things.

As that wise sage Charles Barkley once said, "Poor people have been voting for Democrats for 50 years. And they're still poor."

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 9:06 AM | Report abuse

Hamas
10:17 p.m.
Biden claimed that Obama warned against the administration's decision to push for Hamas participating in Palestinian legislative elections in early 2005. Obama had only been a senator for a few days when the election took place,
...
--Glenn Kessler

==============

Early 2005?? A few days???

Hamas Sweeps Palestinian Elections, Complicating Peace Efforts in Mideast

By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 27, 2006,/b>; Page A01

RAMALLAH, West Bank, Jan. 26 -- The radical Islamic movement Hamas won a large majority in the new Palestinian parliament, according to official election results announced Thursday, trouncing the governing Fatah party in a contest that could dramatically reshape the Palestinians' relations with Israel and the rest of the world.

================

How embarrassing.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 9:12 AM | Report abuse

dbw1: McCain's health care "checks" go directly to the insurer. Check his website. You are not given "your money" you are just taxed on health care you receive at work as if it were income to you. That means a McCain tax hike on the middle class and everyone who gets healthcare.

re: your Barkley quote: If you were poor in 1948 you had a real chance to elevate yourself out of poverty by hard work and the help of government programs and low-cost education. That's thanks in large part to the Society set up by Democrats.

I can also tell you that New York City has not had a Democrat in charge for more than 15 years and there is plenty of poverty and violence to be had.

Posted by: BobSantos | October 3, 2008 9:16 AM | Report abuse

Gov. Palin didn't even know the name of our commander in Afghanistan, and repeatedly called him Gen Mcllelan. Gee, if I remember, he was that narcissistic Union general in the Civil War. I guess some of the books and magazines Sarah doesn't read are US history. I wonder if she can tell us what Seward's Folly was about?

Posted by: vicarkatz | October 3, 2008 9:26 AM | Report abuse

@ Fate "Considering the continuing economic turmoil, McCain will certainly be dogged with questions of whether Palin got that right, that McCain was refering to "working Americans" as the fundamentals of the economy."

She got it exactly right (representing what McCain meant)! Just read it on his campaign website press release: http://www.johnmccain.com/informing/news/PressReleases/77c84349-4964-4489-b65f-6782af18cc6a.htm
In part it says: "the American worker and their innovation, their entrepreneurship, the small business, those are the fundamentals of America...And frankly my friends, our workers have been the strength of our economy, and they remain the strength of our economy today."

Posted by: Shoshanna | October 3, 2008 9:41 AM | Report abuse

Bob said "I can also tell you that New York City has not had a Democrat in charge for more than 15 years and there is plenty of poverty and violence to be had."

But aren't those numbers lower now than they were with Koch?

Posted by: Paul | October 3, 2008 9:48 AM | Report abuse

Palin is Bush 45!


Test Ban Treaty
10:04 p.m.
Sen. Joseph Biden asserted that Sen. John McCain opposed the comprehensive nuclear test ban and that virtually every other Republican supported it. That is false. President Clinton never submitted the test ban for formal ratification because it faced overwhelming Republican opposition in a GOP-controlled Senate.


Doesn't "Republican opposition in a GOP-controlled Senate" include McCain then?

Posted by: Joe | October 3, 2008 9:49 AM | Report abuse

Shoshanna: You are buying into McCain's explanation too easily. His usage of "fundamentals" is not normal if you believe his campaign's definition of "fundamentals".

Unemployment is up and small businesses are in trouble. Why would McCain say that things are fine when they clearly are not? Does he understand economics or is he just trying to lie to the American working class?

Posted by: BobSantos | October 3, 2008 9:52 AM | Report abuse

Iraq
9:46 p.m.
Gov. Sarah Palin was erroneous when she claimed U.S. troop levels in Iraq are now at "pre-surge" levels. When President Bush announced last month that he would withdraw an additional 8,000 U.S. troops over the coming months, he committed to leaving at least 138,000 troops in the country at the end of his presidency, 3,000 more than there were before the troop increases known now as "the surge."
--Jonathan Weisman


Listen a little closer to her response. In her very next sentence Palin said she was referring to troop levels when the next Pres will take office.

Posted by: Me | October 3, 2008 9:53 AM | Report abuse

Paul: Yes. Just like everywhere else around the country. Have you noticed, though, the problem is returning?

Posted by: BobSantos | October 3, 2008 9:55 AM | Report abuse

Nick:
The $12,000 per year is for FAMILY coverage not individual coverage.
Your premium average of $3600 per EMPLOYEE should be compared with McCain's $2500 INDIVIDUAL tax credit. Oh wait, $3600 is $1100 MORE than McCain's tax credit for individuals.

So the $2500 tax credit barely covers the $200/mo "catastrophic" policy you mention. ($200 x 12 month= $2400). Which, by the way, would be more expensive for older folks and not available for most of us with pre existing conditions.

Since I have a pre existing condition and can't get individual insurance, I can use the Maryland high risk insurance (the type of program McCain wants to increase). For my age (33) the premiums would be $400 and up per month, or $4800. With a tax credit of $2500, I'm $2300 short.

Group insurance costs less in administrative costs. Any health insurance reform should focus on getting more people into group insurance for that reason alone (our premiums ought to go to actual health care not administrative costs).

Moreover, we ought to be very concerned about McCain's plan to deregulate so that insurance can be bought across state lines. Currently the regulatory protection for consumers who buy individual policies (see the California cases where people got sick and the insurers found reasons to drop them) comes from the STATES. Unless we have federal protection to replace the state protection, a bunch of people will take their tax credit and buy individual policies that "look" cheaper but don't have any protection for consumers.

Posted by: JRP | October 3, 2008 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Biden voted in 1999 for deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now.

Biden Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

During the debate, Biden said, "Oh, on clean coal. My record, just take a look at the record! My record for 25 years has supported clean coal technology.”.... However, during an early campaign stop once he was announced as VP Candidate, Biden said, "No coal plants here in America. If they’re going to build them, over there [China]. Make them clean. We’re not supporting clean coal.”. One of the most upsetting lines last night in the debate was Biden's attempt to say that he didn't know he was voting on a War resolution? I'm sorry but someone who has been in the Senate since Nixon didn't know he was voting on a War resolution when he voted on the Iraq War! Let me ask you people does he think we are stupid? Or is he just stupid? Either way if a seasoned senator doesn't know when he's voting on a war resolution we have bigger problems in Washington then we know! And we certainly do not need a VP like that sitting with an inexperienced president! If you think things are unstable now wait and see what will happen if God Forbid Obama and Biden get to the White House… Sarah Palin did great last night. She was able to manipulate the debate by bringing the talking points back to the issues that she wanted to talk about to the American people! McCain / Palin will be a breath of fresh air for this country and will make a great president and vice president. The age of Obama will end November 4th

Posted by: notforobama | October 3, 2008 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Watched the debates, I paid attention, tried to follow the facts and still just end up shaking my head. 3 of them kinda smooth talk and polish things to sound good. Almost like OK what does my party want me to say, how should I say it... And Palin just seems to say it like it is. I can appreciate that. Also, don't you think Obama / Biden team has it backwards? Why isn't Biden running for president w/ Obama VP? Seemed odd to me Biden w/ so much more experience. I don't know but personally I like the 2 potential VPs better than the presidents. Maybe they should join forces and compormise and get something done.. instead of this always being about which party wins.

Posted by: new to politics | October 3, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

Wow, did you miss the boat on the nuclear test ban. The Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty was voted down by the Senate in 1999. Please correct this, as you've not only told readers that Sen. Biden was wrong on a major foreign policy vote he took part in, you've told readers that there was a never a vote on a major arms control treaty. C'mon folks, this wasn't a hard one!

Posted by: Tracy Moavero | October 3, 2008 10:30 AM | Report abuse

Sen. Biden was right. The Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty was voted down by the Senate - including Sen. McCain - in 1999. C'mon folks, this wasn't a hard one!

Posted by: Tracy DC | October 3, 2008 10:35 AM | Report abuse

Hamas
10:17 p.m.
Biden claimed that Obama warned against the administration's decision to push for Hamas participating in Palestinian legislative elections in early 2005. Obama had only been a senator for a few days when the election took place,
...
--Glenn Kessler

===========
Seriously, doesn't this call for a correction?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Why can't Paplin find a baby-sitter,when
she is on the stump! i like children but
she is using them to promote her soccer
mom persona, that little baby reminds me of the kid on family guy,who hates lois
him !Biden cream that woman with style and
class,mcprankster will never change!
and Palin is the dumbest polictican that I have ever witness! Lord help us all if
the neocons manage to steal this election
because she will be POTUS,and we will
be the most HATED country in the world
for Warmonger fool!

Posted by: skippy | October 3, 2008 10:39 AM | Report abuse

BobSantos:
"I can also tell you that New York City has not had a Democrat in charge for more than 15 years and there is plenty of poverty and violence to be had."

New York city had Democrat mayors for 50 years, ending in 1994 with the election of Rudy. They have had Republican mayors since. Not coincidently, their poverty rate topped out at near 30% in 1995, and has declined ever since to stand at around 18% today....not even in the top 25 among big cities.

Doesn't it suck when your pre-conceived bias can't be backed up with facts?

Now your turn. Show us some big cities who were in the tank economically after decades of Republican rule, and turned around to show big gains after putting Democrats in charge.

Waiting....

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 11:00 AM | Report abuse

Palin did just that, wanted to talk about the issues SHE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT?!

This isn't a Palin Speech event, its a DEBATE! A Debate means you keep to the topics that the DEBATE MODERATORS select. You don't have any say over which questions you answer and which you Do Not Answer! Gad, how stupid can one get!

Her little winks, and "you betchas" are completely unprofessional for one running for the second highest position in the land.

To Boot, McCain had an ad on the radio this morning that repeats the same LIES that different FACT CHECKER sites has found as untrue. So McCain-Palin wants to win based on Lies! That's NOT reaching across the table of both parties.

Posted by: CALSGR8 | October 3, 2008 11:19 AM | Report abuse

Democrats for John McCain and Sarah Palin in 2008

Posted by: Jennifer | October 3, 2008 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Did anyone notice how apathetic Palin was acting to her son Trig? The little girl, Piper, was carrying Trig around and the father almost knocked them over trying to get to moderator.

Posted by: perki_1 | October 3, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

dbw1 posted:
As that wise sage Charles Barkley once said, "Poor people have been voting for Democrats for 50 years. And they're still poor."

Barlkey also said on CNN in Feb of '08:
"Hey, I live in Arizona. I have got great respect for Senator McCain. Great respect. But I don’t like the way the Republicans are taking this country. Every time I hear the word “conservative,” it makes me sick to my stomach."

If you're going to quote someone, let's get all the quotes...

Posted by: James | October 3, 2008 12:05 PM | Report abuse

James:
"If you're going to quote someone, let's get all the quotes..."

That's fair. So let's get some more quotes from, say, Joe Biden:

Feb. 2007 on Obama's appeal:
"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

Aug. 2007 on Obama's experience:
"I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training."

Aug. 2007 on Obama's threat to go into Pakistan after Al Qaeda:
"The way to deal with it is not to announce it, it's to do it. . . . The last thing you want to do is telegraph to the folks in Pakistan that we're about to violate . . . their sovereignty."

Aug. 2007 on Obama's pledge to meet with leaders of rogue nations:
"Would I make a blanket commitment to meet unconditionally with the leaders of each of those countries within the first year I was president? Absolutely, positively no."

Sept. 2007 on Obama's Iraq plan:
"My impression is he thinks that if we leave, somehow the Iraqis are going to have an epiphany. I've seen zero evidence of that."

Are these the kind of quotes you were after?

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 12:16 PM | Report abuse

FactChecker:
You forgot one:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/palin-misstates.html

Palin Gets McCain Stance on Homeowner Protections Wrong
Email
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October 03, 2008 12:46 AM

ABC News' Teddy Davis Reports:

Sarah Palin got her facts wrong in Thursday's debate with Joe Biden when discussing where John McCain stands on new protections for homeowners facing foreclosures.

The Alaska governor incorrectly made it sound like McCain supports giving bankruptcy judges the power to rewrite mortgage payment terms on first homes.

He doesn't.

The McCain campaign confirms to ABC News that Palin misstated McCain's position.

"No, that is what is called the cramdowns, which is so objectionable that Obama didn't even want it jammed into the stabilization bill," said McCain spokesman Brian Rogers when asked if McCain supports giving bankruptcy judges the power to re-adjust the interest rate and principal to help people stay in their homes.

Palin's mistake came when the debate's moderator asked her if Biden was right in thinking that she and McCain oppose giving bankruptcy judges this new power.

"[W]e should be allowing bankruptcy courts to be able to re-adjust not just the interest rate you're paying on your mortgage to be able to stay in your home, but be able to adjust the principal that you owe, the principal that you owe," said Biden. "That would keep people in their homes, actually help banks by keeping it from going under.

"But John McCain, as I understand it," he continued, "I'm not sure of this, but I believe John McCain and the governor don't support that. There are ways to help people now. And there -- ways that we're offering are not being supported by -- by the Bush administration nor do I believe by John McCain and Governor Palin."

"Governor Palin, is that so?" asked PBS' Gwen Ifill.

"That is not so," said Palin, "but because that's just a quick answer."

The Alaska governor then quickly changed the subject to energy.

ACORN, a liberal group which advocates on behalf of low- and moderate-income people, seized on Palin's seeming endorsement of the Obama-Biden position and is now trying to use them to pressure McCain to change his official position.

"Sarah was just being Sarah," ACORN's Charles Jackson told ABC News. "It's clear from the transcript that she supported the provision that Senator Biden brought up. We'll see if McCain's handlers will allow her to continue to hold that position tomorrow."

ACORN would like the Republican presidential nominee to change his position but the McCain campaign has already made it clear that is not going to happen.

While giving bankruptcy judges the power to rewrite mortgage terms would keep more Americans in their homes, opponents of the idea worry that it could scare investors away from wanting to securitize mortgages for fear that their steady payment schedule could be disrupted by a bankruptcy judge.

"A better approach would reflect the HOME Plan which John McCain proposed in April, which would have allowed credit worthy mortgage holders to rework their troubled mortgages," said Rogers, the McCain spokesman. "A component of the FHA insured proposal included a work-out formula that provided the homeowner with a 10 percent equity stake."

ABC News' Terry Moran and Z. Byron Wolf contributed to this report.

Posted by: SPENCER | October 3, 2008 12:20 PM | Report abuse

perki_1:

"Apathetic"? I saw Sarah holding her son after the debate for quite awhile. What's the issue with a mom holding her baby?

If that's what you are reduced to commenting on with last nights debate, then you can take the "A" off the front of your word, and apptly describe yourself.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 12:20 PM | Report abuse

Obama and tax increases, false, these were procedural votes, not tax increase votes.

And using these procedual votes as McCain does, then one must conclude that McCain voted for tax increases 438 times . . !!!

Posted by: Coldcomfort | October 3, 2008 12:28 PM | Report abuse

McCain never said we would be greeted as liberators.

Posted by: JakeD | October 2, 2008 9:53 PM

“Absolutely. Absolutely.” (John McCain, asked by Chris Matthews, “you believe that the people of Iraq or at least a large number of them will treat us as liberators?” March 12, 2003.)

“There’s no doubt in my mind that we will prevail and there’s no doubt in my mind, once these people are gone, that we will be welcomed as liberators.” (John McCain, March 24, 2003.)

Posted by: kguy1 | October 3, 2008 1:53 PM | Report abuse

Here's the fact: Palin's head was largely empty, except for what the McCain handlers put in to it. She can only spew out the talking points. There's no understanding of the issues we face. None. I was leaning toward McCain, but listening to her last night made me realize that the choice of Palin for VP is dangerous. She seems spectacularly inept and unready. Also, I'm deeply worried about her attempt to redefine the office of VP.

Posted by: Sue | October 3, 2008 1:59 PM | Report abuse

Hey dbw1, don't get me wrong, I'm an indy who likes McCain (not Palin). I could bring up negative quotes about McCain by strong Cons like Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, etc. Just as they changed their stance, so did Barkley. I'll give Lib detractors/supporters for Obama side the same luxury & not spin it one sided. Believe me, I don't care what party runs things, so long as we get it right.

Posted by: James | October 3, 2008 2:00 PM | Report abuse

"Biden said that McCain said he would not "sit down with the government of Spain." This is an overstatement. Biden is referring a recent interview McCain gave to a radio station, in which McCain did not appear to recognize the name of the Spanish prime minister.

[snip]

--Glenn Kessler" October 3 2008


"Asked to explain McCain's apparent shift in tone and position since April, Scheunemann gave almost no ground.

"In this week's interview, Senator McCain did not rule in or rule out a White House meeting with President Zapatero, a NATO ally," he said in an e-mail."

Glenn Kessler and Ed O'Keefe September 18
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/18/mccain_slights_spanish_prime_m.html

Not bad by Mr Kessler's standards, since his first fact check contradicts itself saying that there is no record of Obama warning Bush about Hamas and that his signature is on a letter warning Bush about Hamas.

I'd grant Mr Kessler 4 Pinocchios (unless it is possible to award 5).

Posted by: Robert Waldmann | October 3, 2008 2:04 PM | Report abuse

I was leaning toward McCain, but listening to her last night made me realize that the choice of Palin for VP is dangerous. She seems spectacularly inept and unready.

Posted by: Sue | October 3, 2008 1:59 PM


LOL. Yep it wasn't her solid Couric interviews that did her in, but last nights debate. Only then did you figure it out. LOL!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 3, 2008 2:24 PM | Report abuse

this is good for a laugh...

Didn't have any major issues with Palin before last night??? Her VP acceptance speech was very poised but in the debate last night she really seemed to lack a lot of qualities that a national candidate needs to encompass.

Here's a Republican blog that really questions Palin's position on the ticket and suggests that she's hurting McCain.
http://www.greenfaucet.com/blogs/hanlons-pub

Also includes the Katie Couric video about the newspapers Palin reads.

Priceless.

Posted by: macebruce | October 3, 2008 2:33 PM | Report abuse

'Sue' said:
"I was leaning toward McCain, but listening to her last night made me realize that the choice of Palin for VP is dangerous."

Sure. And I was already to vote for Obama before I saw that tie Biden was wearing, and figured I just can't vote for a guy like that.

C'mon, DNC plant. If you truly swung your vote TOWARD Obama solely based on last nights debate, you either only listened to the half hour of liberal-pundit-speak after the debate (and not the debate itself), or your head is emptier than you perceive Palin's to be.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 2:42 PM | Report abuse

"....can only spew out the talking points. There's no understanding of the issues we face. None."

'Sue', you just adequately described your candidate for PRESIDENT, Barack Obama. Well done.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 2:43 PM | Report abuse

macebruce:

Unlike some conservatives who misguidedly think Palin's stellar performance last night will end the daily beating in the press she's been taking, I have no doubt that the swift kick to the groin you liberals took from her last night will only serve to make you and your liberal friends in the mainstream media double your vicious and misleading attacks on her.

You trashed her for 5 days before she kicked you in the teeth at the convention. And then you trashed her for the last few weeks before she kicked you in the groin last night.

She's making liberals mad as hornets, because they cannot....they will not....stand to let the first woman ever elevated to high-office be a pro-life conservative. They will bash her day after day after day, because she destroys the liberal template of what a strong woman is supposed to look like.

But she's withstood the idiocy of those like 'macebruce' so far, so just expect her to get even stronger....and liberals, you might want to start wearing a cup. She hits back.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 2:54 PM | Report abuse

If you have any doubts that Palin won the debate hands-down last night, just hit the 'back' button on your browser and take another look at the headline the Post has had on their main politics page all day:
"Palin Delivers; Doubts Linger."

After running out 2-3 bash pieces EVERY SINGLE DAY for the past month, if that's as critical as a liberal rag like the Post can be today you can be sure there is no question in their minds that Sarah Palin won the debate last night....going way.

You don't have to like it, Obama worshippers. You just have to accept it.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 3, 2008 2:58 PM | Report abuse

Repeatedly, media gives the impression the Bush "tax cuts" benefited wealthy Americans. Please read the IRS reports on those "tax cuts."

The Wall Street Journal reported in July, “…the Bush tax cuts caused what may be the biggest increase in tax payments by the rich in American history.”

And: The share of aggregate income received by households in the top fifth of the income distribution declined, while the shares for the third and fourth quintiles increased

And: In 2006, Americans with an income below the median paid a record low 2.9 percent of all income taxes…”

And: The top 10% in income, those earning more than $108,904, paid 71%.

*'Their Fair Share'; Wall Street Journal; 7-21-08

I really think this deserves more attention, considering the class warfare being pushed by some political strategists.

best, Kay B. Day
The US Report

Posted by: Factcheck U | October 3, 2008 4:51 PM | Report abuse

Palin repeated the same grammatical error that she made in the Couric interview, when discussing global warming. She said again that she didn't think it was right to blame all human activity on climate change, instead of vice versa. She rolled her eyes afterwards, but it was too late.

Posted by: James Stock | October 3, 2008 6:33 PM | Report abuse

You got it wrong on the health care/tax issue. Biden was factually correct. Do more research.

Posted by: henrytalon | October 4, 2008 1:36 PM | Report abuse

Today I have been searching info on how qualified Palin is and I ran across this (1 min) link that really EXPOSES some HIDDEN FACTS about 'caribou barbie’. Ron Allen ferrets out the TRUTH about her REAL qualifications. ENJOY this GEM! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN54Fb9dLKs&NR=1

Posted by: Shamika111 | October 4, 2008 7:40 PM | Report abuse

Speaking of fact checking... the Washington Post seems to have removed the erroneous "Fact check" about the CTBT and hasn't bothered to admit that it was wrong. Very poor form! If you're going to pretend to be arbitrators of the facts you have to admit when you are occasionally incorrect -- especially after the damage has been done (and your claims of Biden's being wrong have been repeated elsewhere!).

Be honest!

Posted by: Jimmy | October 5, 2008 6:33 PM | Report abuse

It seems that your Wash. Post article is hung up on John McCain...Let's try to be a little more balanced...I am sure Obama is no saint either

Posted by: Michael | October 7, 2008 11:35 PM | Report abuse

Sen. John McCain clearly won last night's debate.

Democrats for John McCain and Sarah Palin in 2008.

Posted by: Carol | October 8, 2008 10:28 AM | Report abuse

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