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Posted at 5:02 PM ET, 10/ 7/2008

Second Presidential Debate: Nashville

By Michael Dobbs


Computers
10:01 p.m.
Obama claimed that the government had invented the computer in order to encourage scientists to communicate. He probably meant the Internet. The personal computer was invented by Apple and other private companies. IBM pioneered the mechanical punch card tabulating machines which formed the basis for the large mainframe computers.
--Michael Dobbs


Taxes
9:57 p.m.
Once again, McCain said that Obama raised taxes 94 times. This came up in the vice presidential debate, and it is a bogus charge.

Fact check.org, a non-partisan watchdog, has analyzed the charge.

Of the 94, 23 of those votes were indeed votes against proposed tax cuts. Eleven of them were increases on families earning over $1 million to help fund programs such as Head Start and school nutrition. And 53 were on non-binding budget resolutions that foresaw allowing tax cuts to expire as scheduled. Such out-year projections are meaningless, since non-binding budgets are passed each year.
Fact.check.org ruled the claim misleading.
--Glenn Kessler


Health Care
9:46 p.m.
In outlining his tax policy, John McCain boasted that he would give all American families a $5,000 tax credit to allow them to go out and buy their own health insurance. This is true but it is only part of the story. The other part, which McCain rarely mentions on the campaign trail, is that the Republican candidate has also proposed taxing employer-provided health benefits, which will wipe out most of extra income from the tax credit.
--Michael Dobbs


Oil
9:43 p.m.
Sen. McCain talked about the U.S sending "$700 billion, some of it to countries that don't like us very much." And he said, "My friends, some of this $700 billion ends up in the hands of terrorists organizations." He's talking about the U.S. imports of oil, for which the U.S. consumers send money to the countries that produce the oil.

In fact, according to the Energy Information Administration, which bills itself as offering the "official energy statistics from the U.S. government," the top producer of crude oil for import into the U.S. is Canada, not exactly a country that doesn't like us. The second largest is Saudia Arabia, another ally. And then Mexico, also a key ally.

But McCain is right that the list also includes countries like Venezuela, whose leader, Hugo Chavez, can accurately be proclaimed to be "no friend" of the U.S. And the list includes Nigeria, Iraq, Angola, Brazil, Algeria, Ecuador, Russa, Colombia, Azerbaijan, Kuwait and Chad.

It is not possible to know how much of the money that flows into some of those countries ends up in the hands of terrorists organizations.
--Michael D. Shear


Boeing Contract
9:33 p.m.
McCain took credit for his crusade to block a new contract for Boeing for a new fleet of midair refueling tankers. He said he saved taxpayers more than $6 billion while launching a Senate probe that found cozy relations between Pentagon officials and Boeing executives.

But the GAO found significant problems in the rebidding of the new contract, which had awarded the contract to a partnership between Northrup Grumman and the European firm EADS.

"This shows how a sort of naive crusade for good government can actually backfire," Loren Thompson, of the Lexington Institute, a defense think tank, told Newsweek.
--Glenn Kessler


Earmarks
9:28 p.m.
McCain continues to make an issue out of earmarks, which are only a small part of the overall federal budget. The big ticket items are entitlement programs, such as Medicare and Medicaid, and defense spending, which together represent much of the federal budget; earmarks are just $16 billion out of a more than a $2 trillion budget.
--Glenn Kessler


Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
9:24 p.m.
Sen. McCain claimed that Sen. Obama was the second-highest recipient of money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac "in history." In fact, according to the OpenSecrets.Org site, which tracks political contributions, Obama was third among senators in receiving contributions from the two mortgage giants during the period of 1989 to 2008.

Having received $105,849, he falls behind Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) and Sen. Christoper Dodd (D-Conn.) in third place, not second. And it's unclear where McCain bases his claim that Obama is second "in history" since the sites that track these contributions don't use that kind of duration.
--Michael D. Shear


Please join the Fact Checker and Friends for live truth squadding of the second presidential debate from Belmont University in Nashville. Fact Checker Michael Dobbs will be joined by diplomatic reporter Glenn Kessler, White House correspondent Michael Abramowitz, Campaign reporter Michael Shear, and researcher Alice Crites. The Fact Check team will analyze statements by the two candidates for accuracy and exaggeration.

Readers are invited to flag errors and misleading claims by either of the candidates by contributing to the online discussion. You can also use the "Contact the Fact Checker" tool to contact us privately with statements that you think deserve to be checked out.

The 90-minute debate will be in the format of a townhall meeting, so it is likely to cover a wide range of subjects, from the economic meltdown to the war in Iraq to presidential character questiions. Since this is a live Fact Check, we will dispense with Pinocchio awards this evening, and focus on giving you a quick guide on the truthfulness or otherwise of the candidates' claims. Join us online!

By Michael Dobbs  | October 7, 2008; 5:02 PM ET
Categories:  Barack Obama, Candidate Record, Economy, Live Fact Check, Other Foreign Policy  
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Next: Nashville Presidential Debate part II

Comments

From:
Head of State
http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/10/fear-and-loathing-in-town-hall.html

Tuesday, October 07, 2008
Fear and Loathing in the Town Hall: A Predictive Fantasy

(The camera looks at the hall from above, into the hall, from the POV of the stage. Red meat has been hung from the walls and rafters, along with dollar bills which, upon closer inspection, are Monopoly money.

The crowd is seated. They are strangely quiet. Their manner is that between those who are waiting for their instructions, post-op surgical recoverees, and post-war survivors. They are slightly slumped, in the same posture.

The candidates enter from opposite sides of the rear of the stage and walk to their podiums. The crowd rises as one and cheers with a loud, aggressive fervor reflective of their desperation.
Obama is standing tall in stride, looking a bit overcome by the experience, although genuine. McCain is smiling--his cheerful public grimace, although there is some genuine pleasure. His eyes have the slightest glaze of a gradually oncoming fog.)

MODERATOR: Tonight is a different format--one where you, the public, can ask your questions directly to the candidates. None of the questions have been screened in advance, and the candidates have been given no advance notice of what the questions, or who the questioners, might be. And with that, we begin. Our first question:

CITIZEN 1: My name is Jan, I'm from Murfreesboro? I've been watching the news, and I'm scared. I can't say that I've listened much about the stock market before? But I know that it's going down, and that's bad. I don't know what's going to happen to my job, or my house, or my kids. My question is for Mr. McCain? What will you do to help us understand what is going on, and to make it clear just what you will do about it?

(Crowd applauds vigourously as Jan sits down with a bit of embarassment).

MCCAIN: (Holding the top of the rostrum with both hands and smiling): Well, first, I want to welcome each of you here tonight. You know, I know what each of you are feeling. I think that each of you must be scared--as I am, of not verifying myself in my father's and my grandfather's eyes. But, that's not so important today--or, at least saying it isn't. What is most important is to appear that I understand an economy that just months ago I said that I had little understanding of at all. I want to win. I need it, frankly, as a way of overcoming my own personal horrors and demons, of overcoming the anger that was bestowed and thrust, unwillingly, upon me. And that's why I'm still willing, even as the sharpest edges of mental function fade, to propel myself through this mass of insult. I understand how to respond to insult. With anger. And impulse. And that's what I'll bring to the White House, come January of 2009.

(Crowd applauds vigorously)

MODERATOR: The next question is for Senator Obama.

CITIZEN 2: Thanks. My name is Ross, from Shreveport. First-time caller, long-time listener. My question is: Senator Obama, it's not an error that you were given the middle name "Barack". We know that that is the same name of the murderous. Communist leader of Iran--and that's no accident. (A slight murmur from the crowd. The moderator looks vaguely stunned, but does not interrupt). Now, when you were going to Russia, with Bill Ayers, and dodging the draft--just like William Jefferson Clinton--(speaking more quickly now, more aggressively, turning to the crowd)--why weren't you here at home, saving our banks from the Liberals and the Socialists who want to take our money away from us and just give it to the terrorists?

SARAH PALIN: (Poking her head out from the wings, with a big smile): You betcha'!

(She withdraws).

OBAMA: Well. First of all, I also want to welcome you all here tonight. You know, I know that this is a difficult time. Many of you are worried about your jobs, your families, your homes. There are times that test a man's soul, and every woman's as well. And I know that this may be one of those times. I can understand why you would be frightened, even angry at what this nation has done. But we are a nation that has risen up in adversity even in the best of times, we found our strength, and honor, and courage, our ability to work as one, when faced with the most difficult situations. And I want to call on each of you, in that spirit of patriotic sacrifice, to join with me in that effort in the days ahead.

(Silence. Then applause, as the recognition of actual thought begins to spread through the crowd. It swells, and finally, subsides).

MODERATOR: The next question is for Senator McCain.

CITIZEN 3 (He is a man who appears to be in his early 40's wearing blue jeans that are stiff and obviously brand-new. They are perfectly creased. He is wearing a tight fitting, also obviously new T-Shirt that says "Average American...And Black With Rage!" beneath which is an American flag. He is wearing black wing-tip shoes. ). Senator McCain, I'm just an average American, just an average Joe, just your Average Joe-Sixpack (Blackberry begins ringing)...Oh...
excuse me...just...a...sec...my boss's phone...(whispering tensely into phone:) "No...I said sell. Sell. Yes, the entire portfolio. No, not Ghanan timber, for god's sake, gold, the lot of it. Jesus H....(tucks Blackberry back into pants pocket and then readjusts his stance to that of average Joe, slumping to one side again and changing his voice back to it's original tenor). Like I said, just an average Joe Sixpack. And I'm wonderin'. I heard what Mr. Hussein just said about "rising up", and I'm wonderin' if that's exactly what he wants to do! Oh, sure, he wants us to band together to rise up--where have we heard that before? Socialists! That's what they do! (crowd begins to murmur, and in the rising heat, the smell of the fresh meat begins to waft faintly through the hall). Rise up! That's what he wants to do! Well, we need to rise up! Against those kind of Socialist, Communist, Fascist, Atheist, Marxist policies! (the crowd is talking, some nodding their heads). And so what I want to ask you, Sen. McCain (crowd quiets), as an average everyday American, is this: What is it like, being a fighter pilot and all, when you know that Barack Hussein was out there, palling around with his Communist friends?

MCCAIN: Well, my friend--and by that, I mean that all of you are my friends--I'm glad you asked. Not everyone has had the luxury of gaining an education merely on the basis of their own talent, or the opportunity to travel the world learning how to be separate from important family members without their having significant pull, or to be able to experience the variety of foods that one has the chance to consume when they are paid for by the State. And, I can say that, in that way, I haven't been quiet as lucky. But I will say this--I will not look such fortune in the face and say: 'Fine, I'll work on education with the Bill Ayers of this world', "I'll be at the top of my class at Harvard", when I can be down, down there with you at the bottom! I know what it's like to be at the bottom when I've had all the opportunities--and I want to share that experience with those of you who have had none. You're angry. I'm angry. We have that in common. Let's be angry together, satisfied that, for another for four years, we've put those who have the arrogance to think for extended periods in their place, content in knowing that we're right--even if we're wrong.

CITIZEN 4: Hiya. My name is George, from Midland, altho' some would say Kennebunkport, heh, heh. I have a question for ya, John, and it's this. Listen: I'm goin' to be out of a job soon. Oil futures aren't lookin' that good, and I've got to tell ya', I didn't have too much luck there in the first place. So I'd like to ask ya, one flyin' man to another--what do you think I oughta do?

PALIN: (emerges from wings with purposeful strides to McCain's podium): I've got to take this one, John. Mr. Bush, if you can't figure out what you want to do after you leave and we move in, take a little time off, and then you come right up to Alaska. They love hunting just like you--and you can fly, you can learn to do it from a plane! The pipeline's big enough for any number of mistakes. So you come up here when you're finished--we've got plenty of bars with plenty of bowls of nuts and plenty of televisions right on Wasiila Main street--we'll take care of you right!

(Bush smiles and sits, crowd applauds, Palin, smiling and waving, exits).

CITIZEN 5: Well, look. This is a serious question. I'm John, from Carpenter. It's for both of you. I've got two kids, 4 and 6, a boy and a girl--so sweet. You know. My wife, she was working for the WaMu branch, center of town. It's closing next week. She's been looking in the ads, the newspapers, online--nothing. It's all she can do to keep a smile on her face for the kids. Myself, I built a commerical trucking business from the ground up. Sixteen years. Sweat everyday, grease on my hands, I can never get it out. We were never rich, but I made a good living. I didn't know about investing--who does, you're not born with it! Anyway, I went to an investment advisor, it seemed like the safe thing to do, protect the kids, plan for the future, not use my own dumb head (smiles). Well, he was so smart, and he was so sure, and he had it all planned out. And it looked so impressive on paper. Now--all of a sudden--it's gone. Everything is changing. It's changing so quickly. It seems like nobody--nobody knew. Not even the people who were supposed to! Everybody was talkin', makin noise, thinkin' of one thing: Themselves, themselves, themselves. Never worrying to think about someone else, about the future, about the next moment.

Well, now the next moment is here. And I wanna know--what are the two of you really gonna do about it?

(The room is quiet as his last word echoes in the hall. The raw meat is rocking, slowly in the air, and the paper bills are gently fluttering). You can see Palin in profile, standing in the wings, holding her chin in her hand. The two candidates stare straight ahead, holding the podium. They are silent).

Cite:
Head of State
http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/10/fear-and-loathing-in-town-hall.html

Posted by: Jana Walter | October 7, 2008 6:44 PM | Report abuse

Seriously, can we have a word-limit on posts? "Head of State" is really annoying me.

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 6:54 PM | Report abuse

As the time passing there has been more serious question about McCain's capacity, commitment, sincerity, honesty and his management skill. When things are not quite working for him he is sounding hollower and even behaving like a old grumpy man which is not happy with his own behavior. But the question here is his intellectual capability because he has not been able to gauge consequences of his judgment and action. Was not the same case is Bush's plummeted popularity and how McCain can say that his policy are different from Bush when he has been coached and promoted by same election campaigner. Problem here is in the whole issue there is lesser part of McCain brain and I don't blame for his age and the way he was brought up and how can you change yourself at 72. That what happens some is lowly qualified and pushes so hard for himself as genius and most qualified.

Posted by: ROLAND | October 7, 2008 7:08 PM | Report abuse

"Was not the same case is Bush's plummeted popularity and how McCain can say that his policy are different from Bush when he has been coached and promoted by same election campaigner. Problem here is in the whole issue there is lesser part of McCain brain and I don't blame for his age and the way he was brought up and how can you change yourself at 72."

Is that you, Governor Palin?

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 7:23 PM | Report abuse

I made a nice video for Barack Obama at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MBrFWuKkWQ

Obama 2008. God bless USA.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 7:38 PM | Report abuse

Seriously, Anonymous, foreign nationals are expressly prohibited from making any contributions or expenditures in connection with any election in the U.S. Generally, an individual may volunteer personal services to a federal candidate or federal political committee without making a contribution. The Act provides this volunteer "exemption" as long as the individual performing the service is not compensated by anyone. 11 CFR 100.74. The Commission has addressed applicability of this exemption to volunteer activity by a foreign national, as explained below.

In Advisory Opinion 1987-25, the Commission allowed a foreign national student to provide uncompensated volunteer services to a Presidential campaign. By contrast, the decision in AO 1981-51 prohibited a foreign national artist from donating his services in connection with fundraising for a Senate campaign.

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 7:53 PM | Report abuse

The published blog, as posted by headofstate and published by the washingtonpost.com is another example of mean spirited media playing to the hearts of mean spirited Americans who crave grist for the rumor mill.

Just because we have the right to say it, doesn't make it right to say it.

Some citizens answer to a higher calling. As my grandmother said, as your's probably did also, "If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all."

OH NO. That philosophy could eliminate millions of blogs, late night TV skits, morning, afternoon, and evening talk shows, most nightly news broadcasts, many newspaper publications, and I estimate 95% of what many Americans talk about on a daily basis. Don't we have enough real problems without making more up from our imaginations?

We are fortunate that anyone would run for office of any kind in America. Isn't it time to give them a break and listen to what they have to say before blasting them with imaginary scenarios, down playing the faults of some while sarcastically exposing the faults of others?

What ever happened to the "Kinder and Gentler Nation"????


Posted by: Jan Clancy | October 7, 2008 7:55 PM | Report abuse

Further, under Commission regulations, it is unlawful to knowingly provide substantial assistance to foreign nationals making contributions or donations in connection with any U.S. election. 11 CFR 110.20(h). "Substantial assistance" refers to active involvement in the solicitation, making, receipt or acceptance of a foreign national contribution or donation with the intent of facilitating the successful completion of the transaction. This prohibition includes, but is not limited to individuals who act as conduits or intermediaries. 67 FR 69945-6 (November 19, 2002).

As noted earlier, the Act prohibits knowingly soliciting, accepting or receiving contributions or donations from foreign nationals. In this context, "knowingly" means that a person:

Has actual knowledge that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national;
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are likely to be from a foreign national;
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national.
11 CFR 110.20(a)(4)(i), (ii) and (iii).
Pertinent facts that may lead to inquiry by the recipient include, but are not limited to the following: A donor or contributor uses a foreign passport, provides a foreign address, makes a contribution from a foreign bank, or resides abroad. Obtaining a copy of a current and valid U.S. passport would satisfy the duty to inquire whether the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national. 11 CFR 110.20(a).

As you know, SS 441e prohibits any person
who is a foreign national from making "any contribution of money or other thing of value" in connection with any election to any political office, including YouTube videos. Please make sure you are not in violation of any U.S. law.

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 7:58 PM | Report abuse

Good post, Jan Clancy.

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 8:00 PM | Report abuse

Final note to "Anonymous" (obviously, your IP address can be used to track you down):

The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 8:13 PM | Report abuse

Hey, Anonymous. I apologize for my attempt to stifle your opinion of a campaign - the winner of which, although he may not technically be your 'leader', will certainly impact the financial, political, and environmental security of every country on earth. That attempt goes against the spirit of the documents governing the nation I claim to adore, and I apologize for it even as I am retracting the statements I made. I guess I'm just afraid that McCain, the candidate on whose behalf I have haunted these boards almost constantly for months, might be shown to be out of touch and beholden to corporate and military interests. And his judgment, as demonstrated by his pick of Gov. Palin as a running mate, is demonstrating some SERIOUS flaws.
Why, then, do I support him? I'm wrestling with that right now...

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 8:55 PM | Report abuse

Obama: "Failed economic policies of the past eight years"?!? Try the last SIXTEEN years!

Posted by: Alexander | October 7, 2008 9:06 PM | Report abuse

John McCain keeps throwing around this number of $700 billion a year being spend on purchasing foreign oil. Where is this figure coming from?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:08 PM | Report abuse

I'm back and I see the fake Real jakeD is still postin'. pretendin he knows what he's talkin' 'bout.
By the way, JakeD, where's yur gurl, Dianne72, the one who keeps promsin' some secret Michelle Obama hates whitey videotape or somethin'
You and she's been awful quiet.

Posted by: Real JakeD | October 7, 2008 9:12 PM | Report abuse

Alexander, the "failed economic policies of the past eight years" that are coming home to roost are those that Biden and Obama fought FOR, and succeeded, AGAINST Bush.

Depoliticize the GSEs and reduce the private profit that the public guaranteed. Bush advocated, Dems stymied it. Obama's "change" is a bumper sticker.

Posted by: The Angry One | October 7, 2008 9:12 PM | Report abuse

Anonymous, America consumes about 9 billion barrels of oil a year, about 7.5B of which is imported. At $90 or $100 per barrel, that's $700B of foreign oil.

Posted by: The Angry One | October 7, 2008 9:14 PM | Report abuse

At some point when McCain is making those snide, lying asides about Obama, my friends, Obama ought to correct him forcefully and push him to retract. McCain, my friends, is a desperate and nasty little man--and the longer this campaign goes on, the less attractive he becomes.

Posted by: Larry L | October 7, 2008 9:19 PM | Report abuse

When was this letter that Senators sent written? Prior to Senator Obama being in the Senate?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:21 PM | Report abuse

get middle income workers "working again"? wow.

Posted by: anon | October 7, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

boring

Posted by: bill | October 7, 2008 9:26 PM | Report abuse

What order would you put entitlements/energy/health care? Excuse me. Obama, he didn't say "education"..........

Posted by: Alexander | October 7, 2008 9:28 PM | Report abuse

at least he knows how to prioritize.

Posted by: jack | October 7, 2008 9:32 PM | Report abuse

So you fact checkers are saying $16 billion of my taxpayer money going to earmarks doesn't count, because it's chump change?

Do you have any idea how out of touch with reality you are?

Posted by: Tim J | October 7, 2008 9:34 PM | Report abuse

I wish everyone is reminded that Fannie Mae enabled millions of Americans to own homes for decades. The problem started only recently when deregulation of banks general was enacted. Then the present administration added incentives for Fannie Mae executives. Four months after the democrats took over Congress, greater regulations of Fannie Mae were put into place, but apparently it was too late. Fannie up until about 6-8 years ago was a great institution that brought the American dream to so many.

Posted by: Grateful Dave | October 7, 2008 9:35 PM | Report abuse

McCain is toast. With the economy tanking with today’s Dow falling about 5 percent, or more than 500 points and both the technology-heavy Nasdaq and the Standard & Poor's 500-stock indexes down more than 5 percent. The American people are NOT interested in hearing smokescreen “character” shenanigans. Despite McCain’s desire to “change the page”, the economy will remains the central issue. McCain is trying to win all dirty; most likely, he will lose dirty.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Can someone report on this $3 million "overhead projector"? I'm sure that in a planetarium there is something slightly higher tech going on here, but wondering if anyone has specific.

Posted by: Eva | October 7, 2008 9:35 PM | Report abuse

Oh, Obama? You want to talk about $18 billion in earmarks? Let's see how much of that $700 billion "bailout bill" truly qualifies as "earmarks"........... maybe $180 billion?

Posted by: Alexander | October 7, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

Oh, I see. I thought this was fact checking. Actually it's DNC talking points.

Posted by: Tim J | October 7, 2008 9:36 PM | Report abuse

I almost flipped out when McCain said over 1,000,000 Americans make a living from Ebay. I would highly doubt that even that many have ever sold anything at all on Ebay much less make their entire living off of it.

Posted by: Mike | October 7, 2008 9:37 PM | Report abuse

What did McCain mean $700 billion goes to terrorists?

Posted by: Jim in San Miguel | October 7, 2008 9:37 PM | Report abuse

I second JakeD... I always skip over the 5,000 word diatribes.

Posted by: Mike | October 7, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

BROKAW shut up!

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

Okay, that was my favorite sound bite right there...

"The straight talk express just lost a wheel..."

Beautiful!

Posted by: Ashley | October 7, 2008 9:39 PM | Report abuse

Is it true that Hoover was the last Pres. to raise taxes during a tough economy? Didn't Bush I raise taxes during a recession?

Posted by: Ashley | October 7, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

Wonderful Reagan !

Yeah! Bankrupt America

Posted by: Jim in San Miguel | October 7, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

McCain said twice that Obama never took on his party. Didn't he take them on when he voted against the war?

Posted by: bill | October 7, 2008 9:43 PM | Report abuse

Didn't Bush I and Reagan both increase taxes during economic downturns - maybe not in a recession, in the early 90's, I was pretty sure Bush raised taxes - any fact checking on that one?

Posted by: Wade | October 7, 2008 9:45 PM | Report abuse

Final note to "Anonymous" (obviously, your IP address can be used to track you down):

The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.

Posted by: JakeD | October 7, 2008 8:13 PM
**************************************************************
Get off your high horse. The posting of a video on YouTube, whether or not it supports a particular candidate, is in NO WAY a contribution to a campaign.

Your empty threats "your IP address can be used to track you down" , "...subject to fines and/or imprisonment", are a bunch of bovine excrement. You are just trying to intimidate an Obama supporter. BAD DOG!!

Posted by: Lgaide | October 7, 2008 9:48 PM | Report abuse

Is it just me or McCain getting his but handed to him. This is like watching a beating.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:49 PM | Report abuse

Who won the presidential debate at Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee?


http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=3682

.


Posted by: DBlake | October 7, 2008 9:51 PM | Report abuse

Didn't Bush I and Reagan both increase taxes during economic downturns - maybe not in a recession, in the early 90's, I was pretty sure Bush raised taxes - any fact checking on that one?
**************************************************
Bush I did, indeed, raise taxes. Depending on how old you are, you may remember that Bush originally ran on a campaign that included this memorable tag line; "Read my lips. NO NEW TAXES!".

He was roundly criticized when he realized,during his term, that there was no way he was going to be able to keep that promise. He ended up raising taxes.

Posted by: Lgaide | October 7, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

I don't think McCain understands the fears folks have of technology -- specifically nuclear energy and having your personal health records online (in this day and age of compromised data).

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:54 PM | Report abuse

Manhattan Project Question...why didn't Obama get a chance to respond to this?

What sort of "goodies" is McCain talking about when he says he opposed the alternative energies because they gave oil companies "goodies"? Weren't these goodies benefits for investing in alternative energies? And didn't the bill actually increase taxes on the oil companies? Why is McCain still making these terribly misleading claims?

Posted by: Mike | October 7, 2008 9:55 PM | Report abuse

If you buy your health insurance from another state, you're up $@#* creek if you have a problem with the health plan, unless McCain is suggesting we set up a federal agency to handle such complaints.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:56 PM | Report abuse

Is it me or is Sen. McCain attempting to sound like a wise, kindly, experienced, grandpa to the American people?

Posted by: Riversistah | October 7, 2008 9:57 PM | Report abuse

McCain said twice that Obama never took on his party. Didn't he take them on when he voted against the war?

Posted by: bill | October 7, 2008 9:43 PM
*****************************************************
Obama was not a member of the Senate when that bill was voted on. He was still a Congressman in IL. He did, however, speak out, forcefully, against the war. Had he been a member of the Senate, I am pretty sure he would have voted against it.

Posted by: Lgaide | October 7, 2008 9:58 PM | Report abuse

And Obama hits on the interstate problems.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 9:59 PM | Report abuse

"...Why is McCain still making these terribly misleading claims?"
***************************************************
Basically because the truth is not going to help him.

Posted by: Lgaide | October 7, 2008 10:00 PM | Report abuse

Peace makers? Preventing genocide? Does this mean we will actually address what's going on in Darfur?

Posted by: Riversistah | October 7, 2008 10:02 PM | Report abuse

It's 10:00 P.M. and the Fact Checkers have yet to vet any statement of Obama's. I'm not watching the debate and as yet have no evidence that Obama has spoken.

Posted by: The Angry One | October 7, 2008 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Unbelievable bias. No one fact checking Obama during this debate, so far... 10:02 p.m.

Posted by: Chris Howlett | October 7, 2008 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Oops, while I was writing earlier comment, there was one VERY MINOR challenge of Obama, he confused "computer" and "internet". Thanks for that in depth scrutiny of Obama!

Posted by: Chris Howlett | October 7, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

I almost flipped out when McCain said over 1,000,000 Americans make a living from Ebay. I would highly doubt that even that many have ever sold anything at all on Ebay much less make their entire living off of it.

Posted by: Mike | October 7, 2008 9:37 PM
***********************************************
I wouldn't be surprised if that number is at least the number of people who sell on eBay. That is just .03 percent of the US population. I have no idea about how many make a living from it.

Posted by: Lgaide | October 7, 2008 10:04 PM | Report abuse

Is everyone ignorant to the fact the factcheck.org is owned by Annenberg which is chaired by Ayres. Who is friendly to the Obama camp. Think there's a comflict of interest there? Don't trust factcheck.org!

Posted by: Let me Just say | October 7, 2008 10:05 PM | Report abuse

the 3 million 'overhead projector' was actually an upgrade for the aging projector in the Sky Theater at the Adler Planetarium here in Chicago, which is the First planetarium in the western hemisphere, and the oldest today. Because of the sophistication of the lenses used to project the sky on a 360 degree theater ceiling, it is an expensive undertaking... so no, unlike what mccain insinuated, it is not just an overhead projector like you would find in a classroom. (check out the awesome adler at www.adlerplanetarium.org for more info if you are really interested in the 3million overhead...)

Posted by: M in Chicago | October 7, 2008 10:07 PM | Report abuse

McCain Doctrine & Obama Doctrine -- Jeebus Tom, why don't you just let Joe and Jane SixPack ask the questions... there's are better.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Reagan sent Marines into Lebanon BEFORE McCain was in Congress. He has repeatedly said that as a new Congressman he advised against sending them in.

Is he confused or lying?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

McCain said Reagan is his hero? The same Reagan who deregulated us into this financial nightmare?

Posted by: Larry L | October 7, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

The computer has a much longer history than the PC -- but Obama was probably referring, not to the PC, but to ENIAC, which was developed by the US government for calculating ballistics tables. (The first working model dates to 1946.) It *was* the US government that made the first working electronic computers.

Posted by: AJL | October 7, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

In regards to the computer:

"Obama claimed that the government had invented the computer in order to encourage scientists to communicate. He probably meant the Internet. The personal computer was invented by Apple and other private companies. IBM pioneered the mechanical punch card tabulating machines which formed the basis for the large mainframe computers."

Obama *may* have been referencing the ENIAC, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eniac built by the US govt for calculating ballistic trajectories.

Posted by: Eric | October 7, 2008 10:09 PM | Report abuse

Ummm, didn't Sen. McCain end up in harms way by breaking formation?? So, the McCain doctrine is about fighting wars that will create veterans who can come home in honor not shame like he did from Viet Nam??

Posted by: Riversistah | October 7, 2008 10:10 PM | Report abuse

You state: "Health Care
9:46 p.m.
In outlining his tax policy, John McCain boasted that he would give all American families a $5,000 tax credit to allow them to go out and buy their own health insurance. This is true but it is only part of the story. The other part, which McCain rarely mentions on the campaign trail, is that the Republican candidate has also proposed taxing employer-provided health benefits, which will wipe out most of extra income from the tax credit.
--Michael Dobbs"
Can you think this through for even one moment?? If you are being provided health care by your employer, then you don't need the $5,000 tax credit to buy health care!! You need the $5,000 to pay the tax on a .... at 20% marginal tax bracket... $25,000 dollar policy! I know health care is expensive, but not that expensive. And if the company stops offering health care, I'll go next door to the company that does. Or negotiate a salary that allows me to buy health care on my own.
Fact Check indeed.

Posted by: c&d | October 7, 2008 10:12 PM | Report abuse

AJL, you beat me! lol

Posted by: Eric | October 7, 2008 10:13 PM | Report abuse

There he goes again. He never said he would announce an attack into Pakistan. He said he would act on actionable intelligence.

AND the Taliban didn't come BACK in after the Russians were driven out. That's when they were allowed to thrive... BTW, John, you were in Congress at the time we turned our back on Afghanistan after the Russians were driven out.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:13 PM | Report abuse

-McCain looks like his shoulders are paralyzed...way too uptight

-Obama seems much more 'connected', able to link disparate issues or comments

Personally, given the pre-debate concerns about the town hall format benefitting McCain, I don't see it. McCain looks old & stiff, Obama seems intelligent & focused

And McCain's 'my friend' comments and hair loss jokes???? Not appropriate.

But I love the idea of withholding ability to answer current question until the previous question has been answered! Only problem is, don't think we could find a moderator to enforce it.

Posted by: jen_o | October 7, 2008 10:15 PM | Report abuse

McCain argues that the "Taliban came back" after Americans abandoned the "freedom fighters" who defeated the Soviets. Those "freedom fighters" *were* the Taliban!

Posted by: AJL | October 7, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

If he knows how to get OBL, why hasn't he shared this wisdom with the FREAKING pentagon???

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

Look, against the popular claims are making that there is bias centered against Mckain, I believe that the main reason for the lack of fact checking on Obama is that so far in the debate there has been nothing whatsoever to contradict. Any one who states that the fact-checkers are biased are not paying attention to what both candidates are saying in the debate.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:18 PM | Report abuse

Is everyone ignorant to the fact the factcheck.org is owned by Annenberg which is chaired by Ayres. Who is friendly to the Obama camp. Think there's a comflict of interest there? Don't trust factcheck.org!

Posted by: Let me Just say | October 7, 2008 10:05 PM
******************************************************
Regardless of who owns it, FactCheck has corrected Obama, McCain, Biden AND Palin. Does it seem that McCain and Palin are being corrected more often than Obama and Biden? I believe they are. I also believe, because of the untruthful statements they are making, that the corrections are deserved.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:19 PM | Report abuse

The Annenberg Foundation has trustees which are from the Annenberg family (see http://www.annenbergfoundation.org/biographies/biographies_list.htm?attrib_id=16977). Ayers is nowhere to be found.

Posted by: AnIndependent | October 7, 2008 10:20 PM | Report abuse

Michael Dobbs, you are of course, correct regarding Mr. Obama's computer / internet attribution gaffe.

In a twist of history, the tabulating machine was devised by a then-U.S. Census Bureau employee by name of Herman Hollerith for the purpose of tabulating the 1890 census in only one year instead of 8 years required for the 1880 census done by hand.

So you could say that the U.S. government did have a role in the earliest days of the industry that would later spawn electronic computers.

Posted by: Dan | October 7, 2008 10:22 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Pakistan, Senator Obama just told a worldwide television audience that he would not respect the borders of a country armed with nuclear weapons.

Can he really be that naive?

Posted by: Tim J | October 7, 2008 10:23 PM | Report abuse

c&d wrote:

Can you think this through for even one moment?? If you are being provided health care by your employer, then you don't need the $5,000 tax credit to buy health care!! You need the $5,000 to pay the tax on a .... at 20% marginal tax bracket... $25,000 dollar policy! I know health care is expensive, but not that expensive.


My comment:
I don't think that you have really priced health care recently. $25K per year for a family with maternity is actually a bit on the low side. Also if you add that 25k as income, its going to push the taxpayer into a marginal rate higher than 15%... at least 25%. So that's actually a 20K per year policy and that's clearly less than the actual cost of a policy.

Posted by: You haven't priced | October 7, 2008 10:23 PM | Report abuse

I'm with Jake. Head of State is wearing out my page down key.

Incidentally, IBM didn't invent the computer. That honor belongs to John Vincent Atanasoff, inventor of the electronic digital computer and former Iowa State physics and math professor.

BB

Posted by: Fairlington blade | October 7, 2008 10:23 PM | Report abuse

Check your facts!
Obama was second highest recipient from Fannie and Freddie!
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html

Posted by: KH | October 7, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

On McCain's health care plan and taxes, see this explanation:

http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/the_missing_7000.php

Even the Post's Ruth Marcus (no McCain booster) says it is an improvement over the current system:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100602633.html

Posted by: Job | October 7, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

Did McCain just imply that Gen. Petraeus would lead us on to victory? Petraeus is leaving command in Iraq. Shouldn't McCain know who the key players are in the war he hopes to inherit?

Posted by: Ashley | October 7, 2008 10:26 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Pakistan, Senator Obama just told a worldwide television audience that he would not respect the borders of a country armed with nuclear weapons.

Can he really be that naive?

Posted by: Tim J | October 7, 2008 10:23 PM

#######################################

Regarding Pakistan, President Bush said he would get bin Laden Dead or Alive. He also stated in the Bush Doctrine that the US had the right to go across borders to get terrorists.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:27 PM | Report abuse

In August McCain had to return $50,000 from Mustafa Abu Naba'a is a dual citizen of Jordan and the Dominican Republic.

Drill, baby, drill - they always make it sound as though any oil discovered will be for the exclusive use of the U.S. Are wse going to nationalize the oil companies. Why wouldn't that oil and its by-products end up on the world market?

US Oil, Gas Exports Soar
Thursday, July 31, 2008 - FreeMarketNews.com

While the U.S. oil industry wants access to more federal lands to help reduce reliance on foreign suppliers, American-based companies are shipping record amounts of gasoline and diesel fuel to other countries. A record 1.6 million barrels a day in U.S. refined petroleum products were exported during the first four months of this year, up 33 percent from 1.2 million barrels a day over the same period in 2007. Shipments this February topped 1.8 million barrels a day for the first time during any month, according to final numbers from the Energy Department.

Posted by: Sandy | October 7, 2008 10:29 PM | Report abuse

This is to all of the people bickering about the fact-checking sites on tonight's debate. If you can give me any example of an instance when a fact that Obmama presented was incorrect, and if that contradiction has not been shown on a factchecking site, I will gladly accept that there may be bias in the factchecking sites.

Posted by: factchecks | October 7, 2008 10:30 PM | Report abuse

Check your facts!
Obama was second highest recipient from Fannie and Freddie!
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html

#########################################

Check your own facts. The vast majority of Obama's contributions from those two companies were from employees.

Posted by: maggots | October 7, 2008 10:31 PM | Report abuse

So you fact checkers are saying $16 billion of my taxpayer money going to earmarks doesn't count, because it's chump change?

Do you have any idea how out of touch with reality you are?

Posted by: Tim J | October 7, 2008 9:34 PM

########################################

It is chump change compared to $10 billion a month being spent in Iraq in a war that the vast majority of Americans oppose. You are the one out of touch.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:33 PM | Report abuse

Wrong on #1.

The origins of the modern computer is ENIAC which was indeed developed by the US Government.


Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Mckain just got his ass wouped. Even if there is some bias on the factchecking sites, what people will see is that Mckain's statements have been refuted, and not Obama's. In my opinion, Mckain's speeches were not nearly as convincing as Obama's. I love that last quote, "A steady hand at the tiller." Oh boy. Sorry, but I would rather have someone who can conduct an INTELLIGENT argument as our president.

Posted by: factchecks | October 7, 2008 10:35 PM | Report abuse

Watch the Obama polling numbers jump! In two weeks, I am predicting that Obama will be leading in the majority of the remaining battleground states.

Posted by: factchecks | October 7, 2008 10:38 PM | Report abuse

McCain spends too much time and energy on earmarks. Like that will solve our problems.

Billions of those earmarks are for things like infrastructure and hospital programs. That funding cannot be eliminated.

This is from WaPo's Fact Checker:

How much of this $18.3 billion could be eliminated is a "difficult question that we have not yet figured out," said Taxpayers for Commonsense vice-president Steve Ellis. The figure includes such items as $4 billion for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which could not be eliminated without halting hundreds of construction projects around the country. Another big chunk goes to military construction, including housing for servicemen and their families, which McCain has also promised not to touch.

Bruce Riedl, a budget analyst with the Heritage Foundation, says it might be possible to eliminate roughly half the expenditure on earmarks every year, i.e. around $9 billion, using the Taxpayers for Commonsense figures.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/05/mccains_fantasy_war_on_earmark.html

Posted by: Sandy | October 7, 2008 10:38 PM | Report abuse

Will Sarah Palin have to take over the Republican ticket?

Tonight John McCain clearly "flatlined" ... if the reaction of the Ohio uncommitted voters scoring the debate for CNN are any indication.

Obama, champion!!!

Posted by: Martin Edwin Andersen | October 7, 2008 10:38 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: Let me Just say | October 7, 2008 10:39 PM | Report abuse

The personal computer was created/invented by IBM in Boca Raton, Florida, not Apple.

Though I like Apple computers.

I just wanted to correct the person who was correcting Obama.

Posted by: Michael | October 7, 2008 10:41 PM | Report abuse

McCain's plan says that we'd be able to cross state lines to purchase private insurance. I don't see how that works.

Health insurance premiums take into account the cost of providing health care in the geographic area. The cost of providing health care is less in Iowa than it is in California or New York for example. It even varies within a state. It's more expensive in NY City than it is in the rural areas of New York.

So I don't see how it would work for me to purchase health insurance from an insurer in Iowa if I live in NY City. It seems to me the insurer would have to take into consideration the cost of health care in NY City and factor that into the premium.

My other issue is the concept of participating providers. Participating providers have agreed via a contract with the insurer to accept a negotiated fee. That fee is less than the provider would charge to someone uninsured or who isn't covered by an insurer the provider contracts with.

Would that insurer in Iowa have participating providers in NY City?

Posted by: Sandy | October 7, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

The computer has a much longer history than the PC -- but Obama was probably referring, not to the PC, but to ENIAC, which was developed by the US government for calculating ballistics tables. (The first working model dates to 1946.) It *was* the US government that made the first working electronic computers.

Posted by: AJL | October 7, 2008 10:09 PM
*****************************************************
If the crux of Obama's statement was an invention that allowed scientists to communicate with each other, then he was referring to ARPANET, an electronic network that was the precursor to the Internet.

Posted by: Lgaide | October 7, 2008 10:44 PM | Report abuse

Bomb Bomb Bomb song was sung by McCain not to a friend but at a newhampshire town meeting.

Posted by: kumar | October 7, 2008 10:48 PM | Report abuse

McCain's health plan will be a disaster.

Don't forget he plans to pay for that tax credit through $1.3 trillion in reductions in Medicare and Medicaid. Reproted in yesterday's WSJ.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122315505846605217.html

Independent analysis says his plan may only cover 5 million people. That a lot of dollars for a covering 5 millin people.

Also from yesterday's NY Times:

Business Cool Toward McCain’s Health Coverage Plan

The officials, with organizations like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the Business Roundtable and the National Federation of Independent Business, predicted in recent interviews that the McCain plan, which eliminates the exclusion of health benefits from income taxes, would accelerate the erosion of employer-sponsored health insurance and do little to reduce the number of uninsured from 45 million.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/us/politics/07health.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin

Posted by: Sandy | October 7, 2008 10:49 PM | Report abuse

Hey Gen. Petraeus!
I think It's time to change Sen. McCain's Diaper...

Posted by: FuTuRe... | October 7, 2008 10:52 PM | Report abuse

Hardly ANY fact checking of Obama! Should I be surprised?...

Posted by: Wow | October 7, 2008 10:58 PM | Report abuse

McCain.... blew him away

Posted by: Marko | October 7, 2008 11:03 PM | Report abuse

Why are Americans paying so much money out of their pockets for food stamps which the adults are selling for drugs and not feeding their children? Why have we not created more jobs by feeding the children at soup kitchens and employing the parents at these soup kitchens?

Posted by: Angela | October 7, 2008 11:07 PM | Report abuse

I don't think that you have really priced health care recently. $25K per year for a family with maternity is actually a bit on the low side.

Nonsense. Knowing what my company "gives" me in insurance dollars, it's less than $12000. I have decent, but not cadillac-style benefits (HMO, vision and dental). I work for a large company. YMMV.
Go to Aetna.com and price out a decent family plan... in MD/DC/VA, I can go from $110/month with an out of pocket maximum of $20,000.

Posted by: c&d | October 7, 2008 11:15 PM | Report abuse

Would that insurer in Iowa have participating providers in NY City?

Posted by: Sandy | October 7, 2008 10:43 PM

It's the same insurer, Sandy. Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Iowa and Blue Cross/Blue Shield of NY... why do they have to be different companies? Because NY states that any health insurance must include: {deleted long list of things like mental health care, in vitro fertilization, and other things critically important to the American Association of Doctors Who Need More Money and are willing to fund the AMA lobbying effort}.
So they play this shell game with multiple state- or region- oriented health insurance companies.
The real, basic, critical questions: Why can't you price health insurance like car insurance? Are cars more important?
And how does it benefit me to tie my health insurance to some company I may or may not want to work for? Right now, they get the tax benefit of giving me health insurance, and also tie me to the company -- who wants the hassle of switching all that stuff?

Posted by: c&d | October 7, 2008 11:32 PM | Report abuse

The debate sucked. Almost every question could be answered by just looking at the candidates platform.

This fact checker sucks. Forget bias. They pick the most trivial crap you can find.

On the plus side, JakeD is right about Head of State.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 7, 2008 11:32 PM | Report abuse

Just checked out Mike Dobbs fact checker. One correction of Obama that he accidentally mentioned the invention of computers when he should have said 'internet'. The next 6 corrections are all of McCain's comments. Gee, could there be a little bias here? No, not on the Washington Post!

Posted by: BillJ | October 7, 2008 11:34 PM | Report abuse

the McCain plan, which eliminates the exclusion of health benefits from income taxes, would accelerate the erosion of employer-sponsored health insurance

Unless, of course, businesses that offer health care get better workers than those that don't. Which will always be the case if companies can get better rates than individuals. If they can't get better rates than individuals, then all you've done is transferred the tax benefit of health care from companies to individuals. And since it is a text CREDIT, it benefits those at the bottom of the economic ladder far more than those at the top.

Posted by: c&d | October 7, 2008 11:39 PM | Report abuse

volley2.ind 6: ?>*:\ ...//2008:10:04:14:26:75*W
#403 of 407: William Hale (hinging0) Tue 07 Oct 2008 (08:37 PM)

Taxes
9:57 p.m.
Once again, McCain said that Obama raised taxes 94 times. This came up
in the vice presidential debate, and it is a bogus charge.
=====NH:
xref: "96 Tears"
====NH//

Too many tear drops
For one heart
To be cryin'

Too many tear drops
for one heart
To carry on,

You're way on top now,
Since you left me,
But you're gonna cry,
Cry cry cry,
96 tears...

read, 'die' for 'cry'; xref: cryogenics, and you get an intentional
foul that is a prayer for whose life work.

volley2.ind 6: ?>*:\ ...//2008:10:04:14:26:75*W
#404 of 407: William Hale (hinging0) Tue 07 Oct 2008 (08:38 PM)

Computers
10:01 p.m.
Obama claimed that the government had invented the computer in order
to encourage scientists to communicate. He probably meant the Internet.
The personal computer was invented by Apple and other private
companies. IBM pioneered the mechanical punch card tabulating machines
which formed the basis for the large mainframe computers.
--Michael Dobbs
========NH:
xref: Aikens Computation lab contiguous to Harvard Law School: site of
the first touring machine to operate via TUBES that played the role of
binary switches as do modern transistors.

Also xref: Brick word, er, work, today re: Apple.
========NH//

volley2.ind 6: ?>*:\ ...//2008:10:04:14:26:75*W
#405 of 407: William Hale (hinging0) Tue 07 Oct 2008 (08:39 PM)

Fact check.org, a non-partisan watchdog, has analyzed the charge.

Of the 94, 23 of those votes were indeed votes against proposed tax
cuts. Eleven of them were increases on families earning over $1 million
to help fund programs such as Head Start and school nutrition. And 53
were on non-binding budget resolutions that foresaw allowing tax cuts
to expire as scheduled. Such out-year projections are meaningless,
since non-binding budgets are passed each year.
Fact.check.org ruled the claim misleading.
--Glenn Kessler

====NH:
96 -94 =2
=======NH//

volley2.ind 6: ?>*:\ ...//2008:10:04:14:26:75*W
#406 of 407: William Hale (hinging0) Tue 07 Oct 2008 (08:40 PM)

Health Care
9:46 p.m.
In outlining his tax policy, John McCain boasted that he would give
all American families a $5,000 tax credit to allow them to go out and
buy their own health insurance.
=====NH:
xref: Chicago transit authority, "Go out and make it better..."
========NH//

volley2.ind 6: ?>*:\ ...//2008:10:04:14:26:75*W
#407 of 407: William Hale (hinging0) Tue 07 Oct 2008 (08:46 PM)

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
9:24 p.m.
Sen. McCain claimed that Sen. Obama was the second-highest recipient
of money from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac "in history." In fact,
according to the OpenSecrets.Org site, which tracks political
contributions, Obama was third among senators in receiving
contributions from the two mortgage giants during the period of 1989 to
2008.

Having received $105,849, he falls behind Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.)
and Sen. Christoper Dodd (D-Conn.) in third place, not second. And it's
unclear where McCain bases his claim that Obama is second "in history"
since the sites that track these contributions don't use that kind of
duration.
--Michael D. Shear
============NH:
Also note Mr. Johnson who was on your VP search committe, Barack, was
former head of Fannie, and is still the head of the Kennedy Center to
where he transfered prior to the implosion... largely snowballed under
his watch as those before him... So, either who was mimlking the cow
for all it was worth, or who knew who could topple the Repblican greed
machine built on it by over extending credit, or neither, or both...

The poor are a democratic constituency ,more than the rich, so it
would make sene to find JFKy and CD and yourself at the trough of
Fannie... then again $100K is not huge $ in this day and age... So,
then it goes back to simply being interested enogugh i the operation...
or covertly setting up to undermine the Republs.
============NH//

Posted by: William, aka, Mohammed | October 7, 2008 11:50 PM | Report abuse

I know the debate was the big news tonight, but isnt the raid of ACORN in Nevada about voter fraud just as big (if not bigger). This newspaper did have an article on it, but it barely got mentioned on TV. I hope we havent heard the end of this.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 12:00 AM | Report abuse

Newsweek had a story in May about the number of people who "earn a living" from Ebay.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/138221

The number can be traced to a 2006 study conducted by ACNielsen on behalf of eBay. The company surveyed eBay sellers around the globe, including 2,000 in the United States. And it concluded that "approximately 1.3 million sellers around the world use eBay as their primary or secondary source of income," with an esti­mated 630,239 in the United States. Take careful note of the phrasing, however: primary or secondary. That could mean 50,000 use eBay as a primary source and 1.25 million as a secondary source. Or it could mean the split is closer to 650,000-650,000.

Even the minority of sellers who meet the company's "power seller" re­quirements aren't coming close to "mak­ing a living" selling on eBay. To reach the lowest level, bronze sellers must rack up $12,000 in sales (sales, not profits), or move 1,200 items over the course of a year. "A bronze-level power seller isn't making a full-time living on eBay," says Cindy Shebley, who began selling on eBay in 1999. "They have to really crank it up and get into higher tiers, like titanium." Levels rise from silver ($3,000 or 300 items per month) to Titanium ($150,000 or 1,500 items per month). Shebley is a silver-level seller (mostly photography and lighting equipment) but says most her income comes "from supporting sellers as a consultant and a teacher." Shebley teaches classes and is working on a new book, How To Market an eBay Business.

Posted by: Sandy | October 8, 2008 12:02 AM | Report abuse

c&d

First, there are a lot more insurers than BC/BS.

Second, The BC/BS organizations in different locations is not one company. They are individual companies.

from:

http://www.insurancedirectory.org/directorycontent.php?id=BCBS

BCBS is a national federation, comprised of 39 independent BCBS companies, all community-based and locally operated.

and

BCBS insurance companies are independent insurance company franchisees, traditionally unassociated with each other, which offer insurance plans to a specifically defined region under one or both of the association brands (Blue Cross and Blue Shield).

Posted by: Sandy | October 8, 2008 12:10 AM | Report abuse

The history of the development of the digital computer is a bit more complicated than the references to ENIAC imply.

ENIAC was preceded by the Atanasoff-Berry Computer, developed in the late 30's at Iowa State University. [I did my PhD in physics at ISU and walked by the display most days.] The ENIAC patent was invalidated on the basis of prior art.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atanasoff%E2%80%93Berry_Computer

It's a small point, but illustrative of a larger one. Fact checking can be a tricky art. I recognize the difficulty of the Fact Checker's work, not helped by the trolls whose screed is "You're in the tank!" History is complex and not amenable to 2 minute speeches--or fact checks for that matter.

BB

Posted by: Fairlington blade | October 8, 2008 12:28 AM | Report abuse

Obama will end any sense of freedom we have left in this country. He is planning on implementing a citizen’s military with as much power and as well funded as our military. He plans include that youth would be required to serve in the citizen army before beginning college. How did Hitler rise to power? He rose during a time of economic trouble, when people were very discouraged and unsettled. Much like what is happening in America today. By giving very good speeches, promising to be their savior and take care of everything through the Government, offering hope and change to the youth who were totally swept away by his speeches and demeanor. He also implemented a powerful civilian army. Much of Obama’s agenda is based on the principle of force and in opposition to the freedom of choice that we as Americans have always enjoyed, will be mandatory, forced upon us, mandated type of executive orders, it will be all about shoving his agenda down our throats. How do I know this go back and review some of the off the cuff remarks by his wife Michele and him on the campaign trail and then think about their meanings. Michele made a comment to a group that when Obama becomes president there will be no more “uninvolved citizens” or words to that effect. I am sorry but we in America have a right to be as involved or univolved as we like, that will end under Obama. Our freedoms are in very great peril if this man gets elected. I am a very level headed average American, I do not hold extreme views, I am pretty much in the middle of the road on most issues, but I see something very dangerous, very revolutionary, and very unprecedented with Obama. Wake up America before it is too late.

Posted by: Annie/Azuralove1 | October 8, 2008 12:32 AM | Report abuse

On the topic of Obama's computer comment - it's hard to say exactly what he was referring to, but regardless of what he meant, he is Govt funded (defense) computing project which most people don't know about - the Dayton Codebreaking project.

See: http://www.daytoncodebreakers.org/intro.htm

The Defense Dept. needed to decrypt German military communications which had been intercepted. At about the same time, the British had a similar project going on.

But, in any case, US Govt funding did lead to designing and building some of the first real computers.

Posted by: Jeff Schmidt | October 8, 2008 12:38 AM | Report abuse

Obama will end any sense of freedom we have left in this country. He is planning on implementing a citizen’s military with as much power and as well funded as our military. He plans include that youth would be required to serve in the citizen army before beginning college. How did Hitler rise to power? He rose during a time of economic trouble, when people were very discouraged and unsettled. Much like what is happening in America today. By giving very good speeches, promising to be their savior and take care of everything through the Government, offering hope and change to the youth who were totally swept away by his speeches and demeanor. He also implemented a powerful civilian army. Much of Obama’s agenda is based on the principle of force and in opposition to the freedom of choice that we as Americans have always enjoyed, will be mandatory, forced upon us, mandated type of executive orders, it will be all about shoving his agenda down our throats. How do I know this go back and review some of the off the cuff remarks by his wife Michele and him on the campaign trail and then think about their meanings. Michele made a comment to a group that when Obama becomes president there will be no more “uninvolved citizens” or words to that effect. I am sorry but we in America have a right to be as involved or univolved as we like, that will end under Obama. Our freedoms are in very great peril if this man gets elected. I am a very level headed average American, I do not hold extreme views, I am pretty much in the middle of the road on most issues, but I see something very dangerous, very revolutionary, and very unprecedented with Obama. Wake up America before it is too late.

Posted by: Azuralove1/Authors Lounge/AOL | October 8, 2008 12:42 AM | Report abuse

The original electronic computers were developed in World War 2(and slightly thereafter) by the governements of the United States and Great Britain.

ENIAC, the first general purpose electronic computer. It was commissioned by U.S. Army's Ballistic Research Laboratory in 1943 and completed in 1946.

The British built an electronic system for breaking German codes in Bletchy park. It was completed before ENIAC, but was not a true computer in that it was not general purpose(Turing Complete).

The company that became IBM did develop the first punch card machines, but they did it with US government funding for the 1890 census.

The history of the modern computer has been largely the product of government programs. To suggest otherwise is far less correct than the alternative.

If Obama had said "personal computer", you might have had a point.

Posted by: Wrong on Computers | October 8, 2008 1:10 AM | Report abuse

Also, whether the US government invalidated the ENIAC patent is immaterial to the issue.(Patents are often granted and revoked for reasons immaterial to the facts in the field).

What does matter is how you define computer. Generally Turing Completeness is the definition used by computer scientists for modern computers. A Turing Complete computer is programmable and computationally powerful enough to perform any computation that any other computer computer can perform.(This definition is loose...but I can't give all the background on the definition of completeness in CS)

If we admit machines like the ABC machine into the definition of computer, then we admit many many other examples of special purpose computational systems that constitute prior art.
The earliest such machine that I'm aware of is a greek astronomical calculator that was pulled out of the Mediterranean. It dated from ~100 B.C.

Posted by: Wrong on Computers | October 8, 2008 1:21 AM | Report abuse

It is wrong to say that Obama received any contributions from Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. Direct corporate contributions to candidates are prohibited. The numbers sited are the total contributions from employees of these companies. It is incorrect and misleading to construe employee contributions as corporate endorsement.

A corporation might favor one candidate, yet its employees may donate money to another candidate against the will of the corporate interest. This is similar to the way that voters often vote for the party that doesn't protect their interests.

Posted by: Fannie/Freddie contributions | October 8, 2008 1:42 AM | Report abuse

------------------------------
------------------------------

Computers
10:01 p.m.
Obama claimed that the government had invented the computer in order to encourage scientists to communicate. He probably meant the Internet. The personal computer was invented by Apple and other private companies. IBM pioneered the mechanical punch card tabulating machines which formed the basis for the large mainframe computers.
--Michael Dobbs

---------------------------------
---------------------------------

what?

the first computers were NOT invented by apple nor ibm. michael dobbs isn't even close.

they were INDEED developed for and by the military. the FIRST was ENIAC... and then later a modified.. of course named MENIAC... (maniac!)

if you wish to post CORRECTIONS michael dobbs.. at least get your facts CORRECT.

p.s. go to the los alamos national laboratory's museum sometime.. they have parts of the original computers there... (their politics SUCK.. but they do have a nice museum)

p.s.2. if obama meant the internet.. (which he NEVER said), he would have been referring to ARPANET.. but again.. the "internet" was never mentioned.

so, technically, what obama said was 95% correct....

but you michael dobbs.. are 0% correct.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!

game over.

Posted by: IF YOU LIVE IN A GLASS HOUSE....... | October 8, 2008 2:02 AM | Report abuse

In 2002 McCain voted for the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, which passed the Senate without opposition.[53] In 2007, however, McCain stated that he regretted his vote in favor of Sarbanes-Oxley,[54] which strengthened financial reporting requirements for publicly held companies but which has been the subject of complaints from businesses.

In 1999, McCain voted FOR the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which passed in the Senate by a vote of 54-44.[52] The deregulation bill loosened restrictions on the activities of banks, brokerage houses, and insurance companies.

Countrywide and its employees have contributed $1.3 million to political parties, candidates and committees since the 1990 election cycle, according to the CRP. Nearly 60 percent of that went to Republicans and 40 percent to Democrats.

Corporations cannot give to candidates, so the center's list adds up contributions from Fannie and Freddie employees and their families. Obama has received a lot of money during his presidential campaign, though, and Fannie and Freddie don't make his list of top 20 companies. (The top three companies with employees donating to Obama are Goldman Sachs, University of California, and Citigroup, according to the center.)

The New York Times looked at contributions from Fannie and Freddie's boards of directors and lobbyists, who are technically not employees. That analysis found Fannie and Freddie-related contributors gave $169,000 to John McCain and his related committees, compared with $16,000 to Obama and his related committees.

Posted by: ripley | October 8, 2008 2:26 AM | Report abuse

Jeez, JakeD (or Fake JakeD, or whatever).
You're trotting out all this legal stuff because of a YouTube video? Seriously?

All the regulations you c&p'd address material contribution to political campaign efforts, as these might be construed as outside bribery. Makes sense, and is important to a) those accepting donations b) non-citizens under US jurisdiction.
However.
The rest of the world is not subject to US law. Threats of jail, persecution etc. are utterly ridiculous -- we foreigners can form opinions, publically support, endorse, criticise and ridicule the candidates as much as we want. Or d'you think all the Berliners who cheered at Obama will be handed over to the US for political interference? Do comedians all around the world who have had a field day with Palin have to fear deportation and trial? I think not. Get a grip, and reserve your threats for cases in which the laws you cited actually apply. And, if possible, for people subject to US law.

Posted by: foreignnational | October 8, 2008 2:32 AM | Report abuse

Not so fast, fact checker. Obama is talking about the ABC or the Eniac. The government in involved in financing those projects, and Eniac was indeed used for defense.


Who Invented The Computer?

http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/who-invented-the-first-computer

The answer to this question depends of your definition of a computer.

In 1939, John V. Atanasoff and Clifford Berry developed the Atanasoff-Berry Computer (ABC) at Iowa State University, which was regarded as the first electronic digital computer. The ABC was built by hand and the design used over 300 Vacuum Tubes and had capacitors fixed in a mechanically rotating drum for memory.

The ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer), constructed in the US in 1943, is widely regarded as the first functionally useful electronic general-purpose computer. Influenced by the ABC, it was a turning point in the history of computing and was used to perform ballistics trajectory calculations and used 160 kW of power. World War II is known to be the driving force of computing hardware development and one of such use of computers was in communications encryption and decryption.

The UNIVAC I (Universal Automatic Computer) was the first commercially available, "mass produced" electronic computer manufactured by Remington Rand in the USA and was delivered to the US Census Bureau in June 1951. It used 5,200 vacuum tubes and consumed 125 kW of power. 46 machines were sold at more than $1 million each.

Posted by: kravitz | October 8, 2008 2:47 AM | Report abuse

Obama:

"I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of Americans, 95 percent."

Untrue.
Over 30% of Americans don´t pay any taxes.
A lie.
And Obama knows it.

Posted by: nahal | October 8, 2008 4:26 AM | Report abuse

MCCAIN WILL ALWAYS NO MORE THAN OBAMA.
OBAMA HAS TO REACH, MCCAIN JUST ANWSERS.
MCCAIN IS INTERNAL ON THINGS WHEN IT COMES TO THE HOUSE.
OBAMA IS MORE EXTERIOR TYPE & HAS TO MAKE THE EFFORT ABOUT GETTING INFORMATION,
WHEN MCCAIN HAS THE EXTRA INFO..
IF I WAS GOING NEED HELP, I WOULD ASK MCCAIN & TRUST HIM MORE WHEN IT COMES TO LIFE ISSUES, WISDOM.

Posted by: SUTTON | October 8, 2008 4:38 AM | Report abuse

From "Fact of the Matter"
http://www.need4trth.blogspot.com

I REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO START THIS.....

Tom Brokaw was definitely the wrong pick for the Moderator. He allowed John McCain, in what I believe was a concerted effort, to speak outright lies about Obama's voting record and some of Obama's policies, go unchallenged. He didn't, as the moderator, dispute these well known lies and false claims, nor did he allow Senator Obama to challenge the false McCain statements.

Brokaw allowed this biased latitude for McCain to occur on three different occasions until Senator Obama finally told Brokaw this, "I'm sorry Tom but there's a lot of this stuff out there...." Stuff meaning LIES AND SMEARS, by McCain. Obama successfully defended himself, and respectfully put McCain in his place, and McCain tried to throw a low blow, yet as Phil Collin's once sang, "...did I miss again, how did I miss again oh oh..."

My opinion of Tom Brokaw has lessened. He is obviously in the REPUBLICAN TANK. As an Expert Moderator he failed to do the 'CIVIC DUTY' of a journalist, too challenge a PROVEN LIE or allow Senator Obama rebuttal against obvious lies. This inaction and disallowing by Brokaw seemed a concerted effort of Corporate Media favoritism of John McCain in action. I felt in spirit that Brokaw was blatantly taking sides. I'm not God so I can't say for sure. Yet, even though he possibly tried to aide McCain on those three occasions, for McCain it obviously wasn't enough. He later took a jab at Brokaw by saying, "It sure won't be you Tom", in his answer to the question who would they choose for the position of Secretary of the Treasury.

McCain demonstrated anger and aggression. John McCain "appears" bitter because he is losing in the polls, and HATEFUL because it is Barack Obama who is proving to be John McCain's BETTER. McCain is demonstrating the mindset of someone who knows he went about his plan wrong and now he is paying for it. Can Somebody say, "LOOOSEERRRR!!!!!"

JOHN MCCAINS WAR CONTINUUM RESURFACED TONITE.....

Once again McCain begin to trumpet the supposed winning strategy of the surge as the new war strategy against those whom would stand in McCains America's way. The Warmonger unleashed his list of experience in, 'knowing how to win wars'....

FIRST LET'S DO A LITTLE FACT CHECKING FROM FACTCHECK THE WIRE

Counting Errors
McCain said that Obama had voted 94 times for higher taxes or against tax cuts. He’s getting warmer — the first time we dinged him for this one, he said Obama voted 94 times to increase taxes, which is way off. This is still misleading, though. The real breakdown includes: 23 votes against tax cuts (which would have produced no increase in taxes); seven votes that would have lowered taxes for most people, but increased taxes on a few; 11 votes that would have increased taxes on those making over $1 million a year. The majority of the 94 votes (53 of them, including some of the above) were on budget measures, not tax bills, and would not have resulted in any tax change. Four other votes were non-binding motions related to conference report negotiations.

Obama, in turn, repeated the claim that McCain voted 23 times against alternative energy. We found that only 11 of those votes would have reduced or eliminated incentives for alternative energy. The rest opposed creating or enforcing alternative energy.

Conclusion, they were both off some yet, McCain was, continuing, if you will, too PROPORT LIES. Let's look at another one...

Oversimplifying the Fiscal Crisis
It’s finger-pointing time again, with each candidates blaming the other for the financial crisis. McCain called Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac the “catalyst” for the crisis and blamed Obama for failing to sign on to a bill to reign in the FMs. Obama countered that it’s a culture of deregulation and lack of oversight that caused the problem.

We’ve been here before. Both candidates have a point: Democrats really have fought regulation of the FMs and McCain has in fact been in favor of deregulation.

Yet, McCain's campaign manager up until a month ago was still on the payroll of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. McCain in this argument has no argument. He is one of the main author's of deregulation.

These are just a few of the issues they are not quite correct on. Yet, the greatest aggressor of the SMEAR, FEAR, and LIES CAMPAIGN is THE PUPPETED MOUTHPIECE OF THE RNC campaign McCain90%w/Bush/Palin.

ONE MORE FACT CHECK FROM FACTCHECK THE WIRE....


Health Care Fines for Small Businesses?
McCain said that Obama’s health care plan would mandate that “small businesses” provide coverage for their employees and would fine them if they failed to do so. Actually, Obama’s health care plan, posted on his Web site, says: “Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement.” McCain previously used this charge in his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention

Posted by: need4trth | October 8, 2008 5:33 AM | Report abuse

The history of the computer is pretty complicated, too much so for this column to deal with. Wikipedia has a better high-level view, but ... er... it all depends on what the meaning of "computer" is.

Posted by: An anonymous geek | October 8, 2008 7:32 AM | Report abuse

It seems to me for those of us that are not fully educated in the details of the issues that we can narrow these canidates down to two things. Economics and Military. It just seems logical. Experience and what they talk about. At least that's my view. So my decision is which do we need more? This is what I'm basing my vote on, weighing and praying I'll know best when that time comes. Can anyone tell me if there are ebooks out on these yet? I get ebooks at showmemyebooks.com but would be happy if The Washington Post published them for download as well. Thanks-
Verle

Posted by: Verle Nelson | October 8, 2008 8:16 AM | Report abuse

Does this mean the Obama did not make any non-factual statements? Everything here is about McCain!!!!

Posted by: Looking for Fairness | October 8, 2008 8:21 AM | Report abuse

McCain tried to nail Obama for raising taxes. By applying the same standard of accounting to McCain's own record... McCain raised taxes 477 times.

He also implied that the government paid for Joe Biden's hair plugs.

Posted by: Kat | October 8, 2008 8:25 AM | Report abuse

Why doesn't someone hold the candidates feet to the fire in these debates? Why can we not have a debate where each candidate is confronted with his misconceptions, misleading, and outright untruths about either his or his opponent's record and experience? Are we afraid of such confrontation? It is not "good TV"? If American's read most of the national newspapers and other wire services stories, they consistently receive only one side of the story. If they watch the national or cable news networks, they consistently receive a bias, opinionated narrative rather than the news.

Why is it that the largest and most sophisticated democracy in the world has not created a way to guarantee that its electorate receives an honest, unbiased assessment of candidates at all levels? Perhaps the answer is that we have not demanded it! It is time that we do!

Posted by: Margaret | October 8, 2008 8:43 AM | Report abuse

Who Invented The Computer?

http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/who-invented-the-first-computer

The answer to this question depends of your definition of a computer.

In 1939, John V. Atanasoff and Clifford Berry developed the Atanasoff-Berry Computer (ABC) at Iowa State University, which was regarded as the first electronic digital computer. The ABC was built by hand and the design used over 300 Vacuum Tubes and had capacitors fixed in a mechanically rotating drum for memory.

The ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer), constructed in the US in 1943, is widely regarded as the first functionally useful electronic general-purpose computer. Influenced by the ABC, it was a turning point in the history of computing and was used to perform ballistics trajectory calculations and used 160 kW of power. World War II is known to be the driving force of computing hardware development and one of such use of computers was in communications encryption and decryption.

The UNIVAC I (Universal Automatic Computer) was the first commercially available, "mass produced" electronic computer manufactured by Remington Rand in the USA and was delivered to the US Census Bureau in June 1951. It used 5,200 vacuum tubes and consumed 125 kW of power. 46 machines were sold at more than $1 million each.

Posted by: kravitz | October 8, 2008 2:47 AM


Yes, kravitz is right on this. ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer) was meant to process logistics data, and was funded by government grants.

Hopefully this will be updated soon.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 9:41 AM | Report abuse

Chris, just a few observations in the light of day. I watched the entire debate and support Obama, and I suppose my main concen was that Obama would do well. I thought he did.

I thought the Town Hall format was stilted and ridiculous and Brokaw did a poor job on controlling the alloted time. In the lkast debate we had loads of questions; last night just a handful. I miss Tim Russert.

I thought McCain's, "That one," comment will be remembered for quite awhile. It was a very poor choice of words. It made me angry.

I thought Obama outshined McCain on foreign policy - which surprised me - and Obama's response to McCain's "he dosen't understand" mantra was priceless, and overdue.

Obama obviously undestands health care a lot more then McCain ever will. McCain has spent zero time in his life without federal healthcare. Out in the rest of the world, it's a lot tougher.

McCain shamelessly pandered to the guy who claimed to be a retired Navy Chief. I wonder if the Chief has ever reviewed McCain's shoddy voting record on veteran's issues. I doubt it.

My sense is McCain's personality is wearing thin with the general public. I had no strong feelings about him one way or the other six months ago. Now I can't stand to hear him speak. He seems nasty, condescending, dismissive and shallow. Or, as my grandfather used to say, "He's bad people."

McCain's health care and tax proposals will be disastrous in this economy. People are in trouble. Tax cuts for CEO's. Good grief. And we are the last modern nation to protect its citizens from health care bankruptcies (1.86 million Americans last year).

National and state polls indicate fewer and fewer undecided voters are still out there. McCain needed to do much, much better in this debate then he did.

Posted by: maxfli | October 8, 2008 9:48 AM | Report abuse

I thought McCain's, "That one," comment will be remembered for quite awhile. It was a very poor choice of words. It made me angry.

Posted by: maxfli | October 8, 2008 9:48 AM


What is big deal with that comment? Its trivial when compared to the rest of the poitical mud being thrown out there.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 9:56 AM | Report abuse

Sen. John McCain clearly won last night's debate.

Democrats for John McCain and Sarah Palin in 2008.

Posted by: Jennifer | October 8, 2008 10:25 AM | Report abuse

Naive readers upon reading this article would believe that only one candidate was guilty of "stretching the truth." Where is the media reporting as it should be - showing both sides of all issues, and looking into both candidates equally and fairly? I look for an article that would also show a fact checker on the statements made by the other Presedential candidate - Obama.

Posted by: Concerned Reader | October 8, 2008 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Glenn Kessler said:
"Factcheck.org, a non-partisan watchdog, has analyzed the charge."

Well then, I guess that settles it. I mean, as long as factcheck.org says so, it must be so. Unless, perhaps, our unbiased friends at the Post's "Fact-Checker" would fact check their claim that 'factcheck.org' is non-partisan.

The same factcheck.org that is funded by the Annenburg foundation.

The same Annenburg foundation that funds legions of liberal-friendly projects, including the Chicago Annenburg Challenge.

The same Chicago Annenburg Challenge that, of course, is tied to the hip of one Bill Ayers, former domestic terrorist and avowed communist.

What was that again about the "non-partisan factcheck.org"?

That would be like the 700 Club funding a 'fact-checker', and claiming to be non-partisan because.....they said so.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 8, 2008 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Concerned Reader:
"I look for an article that would also show a fact checker on the statements made by the other Presedential candidate - Obama."

Even graciously counting these running debate fact-checks as 'neutral' (although each one has been far more focused on nit-picking McCain/Palin, and ignoring outrageous claims by Obama/Biden), my running count of the Fact-Check since end of June is:
17 - against McCain/Palin
6 - against Obama/Biden
7 - neutral

So if you are looking for this Post Fact-Checker to grille Obama's lies and mistatements.....good luck with that.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 8, 2008 10:45 AM | Report abuse

Why has no one called out McCain over his repeated claim last night that, under his health care plan, every American will get a $5K tax credit toward purchase of health insurance?

He said this several times; Obama didn't correct him, and I've not seen anyone in the media do so.

What McCain's plan actually offers is a $2,500 tax credit to individuals, $5K to families. But the way he was describing it, repeatedly, it sounded like every individual would get that larger amount.

Posted by: magpie | October 8, 2008 10:47 AM | Report abuse

magpie:

Since you are so bothered by McCain's health care tax credit claim, I can only imagine how appalled you must be by Obama's repeated claim that he will give 95% of Americans a tax cut.

I mean, since 30%-40% of Americans don't pay income taxes, the only way they'll get a tax cut is if they lose their job and don't have to pay payroll taxes any more.

But Obama's economic plan could very well end up costing millions of jobs, so maybe he IS being accurate about 95% of Americans getting a tax cut....since he must assume that a third of them won't have a job or income to tax anymore.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 8, 2008 11:02 AM | Report abuse

The fact checker is ignorant of the history of the computer. Both the US and the British government helped develop the computer during and after World War II. So Obama was right.

Posted by: Dave | October 8, 2008 11:04 AM | Report abuse

Michael, don't be so dull. Computers predate the PC. Early computers were made by the British government to decode German messages. The US government created the ENIAC in 1946 for missile guidance. The internet were another government project. Half of the technological things you have in your home (inclding stuff like Tempur Pedic beds and Avastin anti-cancer meds) came from government research.

Posted by: Stav | October 8, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

The computer was invented by Charles Babbage around the turn of the 18th->19th century. The first specialized electronic computers were constructed concurrently by the Germans and the British during WWII (Zuse's calculator in 1941, the Colossus code breaker in 1943).

But the first general purpose electronic computer was the ENIAC, developed by academics (Eckert & Mauchly)under US Military funding. It came on-line in the mid 1940's. So there's a sense in which Obama was correct -- though the main purpose of the ENIAC was to compute artillery tables, not to foster communication.

I agree he probably meant the Internet, and in any event who cares (aside from geeks like me)? But Apple and IBM do not deserve the credit for "inventing the computer" any more than "the government" does.

Posted by: RPW2 | October 8, 2008 11:21 AM | Report abuse

I believe Obama's comment about the government inventing the computer is a reference to wartime funding of the ENIAC electronic computer which was developed at the University of Pennsylvania. From the Wikipedia article on the ENIAC: "ENIAC, short for Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer, was the first general-purpose electronic computer. It was the first Turing-complete, digital computer capable of being reprogrammed to solve a full range of computing problems, although earlier machines had been built with some of these properties. ENIAC was designed and built to calculate artillery firing tables for the U.S. Army's Ballistic Research Laboratory."

Posted by: Bo | October 8, 2008 11:24 AM | Report abuse

Michael Dobbs is incorrect. Senator Obama was obviously referring to the W.W. II U.S. Army-funded project for an electronic computer. Government funding went to a project at the Moore School of Electrical Engineering at the University of Pennsylvania. The work began in 1943 on ENIAC.

Posted by: Ju Lo | October 8, 2008 11:35 AM | Report abuse

thought McCain's, "That one," comment will be remembered for quite awhile. It was a very poor choice of words. It made me angry.

Posted by: maxfli | October 8, 2008 9:48 AM


What is big deal with that comment? Its trivial when compared to the rest of the poitical mud being thrown out there.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 9:56 AM

***********************************

Because it goes to character. This is not a trivial thing. Remember character. That was the issue the McCain campaign told us this election was really about, not issues (last March). When I look at McCain's character, I evaluate him based on the nature of the campaign he has run, the way he fudged his military records (see this website we are posting on), his flipflops on so many issues the carpetbaggerreport.com keeps a running tally approaching 100, and the way he has conducted himself in these debates. Decorum, respect, and treating other people with dignity and respect are evidence of good character. I don't see good character when I look at John McCain.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Wow; life is so much simpler when you just filter everything through your ideology. You know, I used to spend my summers working at Scout camps and I realized there that on every work crew, every person was convinced he was doing more than his fair share. Looking around in the larger world, I realized that pretty much all of us feel that way about almost everything in life - our side is unfairly penalized, while the other side is unfairly let off by the refs. Hey, even Satan felt he was treated unfairly. Did it ever occur to any of you hyper-partisans that you might actually be wrong in your basic assumptions?

Posted by: JohnR | October 8, 2008 11:56 AM | Report abuse

"Obama claimed that the government had invented the computer in order to encourage scientists to communicate. He probably meant the Internet"

I though this was the fact checker, not let's make excuses for Obaby. Obaby was WRONG. Barry was as right as Gore was when he said he invented the internet. Mr. high tech doesn't know as much as he credits himself for. Like America didn't know that already.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 12:12 PM | Report abuse

Regarding Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, who cares whether Mr. Obama is the 1st, 2nd or 3rd largest recipient of contributions? It appears to me what is relevant is that the three guys mentioned receiving the largest contributions from those jokers is John Kerry, Chrisopher Dodd and Barack Obama.....all Democrats by the way.

Hey, what the heck. We just gave $440 grand to the AIG boys to go on their spa retreat junket. John, Christopher and Barack need theirs backs rubbed. But, we can't forget Barack's gonna give 95% of us a tax break. Ha, ha, ha...I figured that up using Barack's proposal for my daughter. Came out to 50 bucks. Yeah, that oughta do wonders for her financial portfolio.

Posted by: Harry | October 8, 2008 12:17 PM | Report abuse

maxfli said:
"I thought McCain's, "That one," comment will be remembered for quite awhile. It was a very poor choice of words. It made me angry."

Anonymous concurred:
"Because it goes to character. This is not a trivial thing.".

What a crock. Now you're just grasping at straws, which is nothing new. Obama spent the entire first debate continually referring to McCain as "John". Were you guys just as disgusted by Obama's lack of proper "decorum" of not referring to McCain as "Senator McCain", or "the senator"?

That's what I thought. Two-faced Democrats sound pathetic.....

Posted by: dbw1 | October 8, 2008 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Lgaide:

Please (re-)read the FEC Advisory Opinion I cited to, and look up the word "indirect".

Posted by: JakeD | October 8, 2008 12:19 PM | Report abuse

Michael Dobbs is wrong about computers.

The very first 'turing complete' computer was the Z3 in 1941. It was developed to help analyze wings for fighter planes. But the first general purpose turing complete computer was the ENIAC, developed by the U.S. government to calculate artillery firing tables. It's probably true that Obama meant the internet, given his full comments. But even if he did mean the computer, he would be right that it was a government project in the U.S. and right that it was for military purposes. And, even if he meant the very first computer in any nation he'd still be right about it being military and, while the Z3 was made by a company, they got funding from the German government. So Obama is right on just about any level.

Posted by: DT Strain | October 8, 2008 12:30 PM | Report abuse

Harry:
"Regarding Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, who cares whether Mr. Obama is the 1st, 2nd or 3rd largest recipient of contributions?"

The Post Fact-Checker took time to point out Obama was 3rd, not 2nd, highest recipient of money from Fannie/Freddie. (McCain was off by 1).

The Post Fact-Checker also took time during last week's VP debate to criticize Palin over a 5,000 troop difference in her pre-surge statement, out of of 135,000 troops.
(Palin was off by 3%)

Meanwhile, the Post Fact-Checker didn't bother to cover Biden's twice-repeated claim of helping put 100,000 new cops on the street, which is off by about 75,000.
(Biden was off by 300%)

The Post Fact-Checker didn't bother to cover Obama's repeated claim of giving 95% of Americans a tax break, when it will only be about half that after you discount the number of Americans who already don't pay ANY income taxes.
(Obama was off by 50%)

The Post Fact-Checker hasn't bothered to check Obama & Bidens repeated claims, including again last night, that "this is the worst economy since the Great Depression". (by any economic measure, it's not even close; they conveniently forget the Carter years)

Harry, this is the kind of fact-checking fairness you can continue to expect from the Post.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 8, 2008 12:35 PM | Report abuse

@dbw1

The Fact Checker checks McCain/Palin more often because they've been making more egregious statements.

Despite that fact, the Fact Checker has been bending over backwards to try to accommodate conservatives by making mountains over molehills about Obama/Biden statements and holding Obama/Biden to a stricter standard.(Giving more Pinocchios to a statement by Obama/Biden than an equivalent statement by McCain/Palin).

Dobbs is in the very difficult position of trying not to completely alienate conservative partisans, like yourself, that have a somewhat unfactual view of the facts, while still maintaining professional integrity and honesty.

We wouldn't give the winning team in a baseball game extra strikes just to be fair and neither should Dobbs in this political game.

From what Dobbs has said since I've been reading his column, I get the impression that in any other election he would be leaning a little right of center. But you know what they say: "The facts don't lie."

Posted by: lol | October 8, 2008 1:19 PM | Report abuse

What is so bad about "earmarks" or "pork". I don’t see the problem here. Especially now that the federal government has virtually cut off sending money back to the states, how else are local projects that aren’t part of big federal categories supposed to get funded?

Posted by: Electronwriter | October 8, 2008 1:23 PM | Report abuse

The Z3 was "Turing complete" in only the most technical sense of the word.

It was only proven to be complete in 1998 because it lacked a conditional jump instruction. This might disqualify it from being considered as the first modern computer.

Still, I think it constitutes an important example of a device that began to bridge the gap between special purpose computing devices and general purpose ones.
Thanks for bringing that up.

Posted by: Computers | October 8, 2008 1:32 PM | Report abuse

JakeD: "Seriously, can we have a word-limit on posts?"

For once, JakeD and I agree. A character limit is severely needed.


I still think you are all giving Babbage short shrift. Where's the love? (... or Lovelace? ...)

It also occurs to me that Babbage's work was almost certainly funded by the British government. So (a) government did fund the first computer, after all!

Plus I would think that politicians in both parties could really get behind any machine powered by hot air and steam.

Posted by: RPW2 | October 8, 2008 1:39 PM | Report abuse

lol:

Yes, Dobbs makes excuses for Obama and Biden and mountains over molehills in an obvious ploy to seemingly "play fair". I have no problem with him Fact Checking McCain and Palin. But, why does he (and you) ignore the REAL issues -- some cited by dbw1 above -- that should be Fact Checked?

Posted by: JakeD | October 8, 2008 1:42 PM | Report abuse

I agree, all this railing on earmarks is seriously misguided. There are FAR larger problems, if it is a problem at all.

I think the only issue is that they get unfairly rewarded to representatives that have longer tenures and hold important committee positions.

Maybe a good solution would be to this earmarks issue would be to create a congressional discretionary fund. Each representative could choose to spend that money on a local project or let it roll over to the next year to save it for a larger project. Since representatives don't have term limits they could save up for whatever they want to spend on, or they could pool their resources with other reps from their state.

Posted by: patrick | October 8, 2008 1:42 PM | Report abuse

RPW2:

Thanks ; )

Posted by: JakeD | October 8, 2008 1:43 PM | Report abuse

"Financial Terrorism" seems to be exactly what the Islamic Extremist have prayed for, AND we did it to our selves. Now, it's time to recognize this as "FINANCIAL TERRORISM" and for US to correct it with positive language, thinking and actions. We must invest in America and the American Way or the Islamic terrorist have won without lifting a finger. Media must begin a new 'positive agenda' to correct this as only the media can. Media, come forward and address the need for Americans to begin right now to INVEST IN AMERICA in every possible way, beginning with positive language...YES WE CAN turn America's markets around, beginning NOW!

Posted by: Debulium | October 8, 2008 2:01 PM | Report abuse

"Obama was third among senators in receiving contributions from the two mortgage giants during the period of 1989 to 2008."

Don't you mean "from people who work there"? You're making it sound as if the two companies themselves actually wrote checks as an official act, and I don't think that's true.

Posted by: Tom J | October 8, 2008 2:14 PM | Report abuse

lol:

Like Dobbs and other liberals, you can't see Obama's lies for what they are: LIES.

You believe them to be truth, since Obama is the one saying them, and immediately conclude that "well, McCain must just lie more". But just because you say Obama doesn't lie, because you don't want to BELIEVE that he's lying, does not suffice as a logical argument that McCain lies more.

If you want to prove your so-called point, then by all means....start with the lies/half-truths already pointed out above that have been quoted by Obama/Biden, and try to prove that they are truth using facts....not just impassioned rhetoric.

Of course, asking a Democrat to realize when Obama is lying is like asking a fish to realize when he is wet....

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 2:21 PM | Report abuse

how else are local projects that aren’t part of big federal categories supposed to get funded?

Posted by: Electronwriter | October 8, 2008 1:23 PM


Through local taxes.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 2:21 PM | Report abuse

Alas, Babbage was scooped: A friend of mine just pointed me to the Antikythera mechanism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Who funded that, I wonder? Probably funded on the backs of the low-class ancient Greek tax payer!

Posted by: RPW2 | October 8, 2008 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Electronwriter:
"What is so bad about "earmarks" or "pork".....how else are local projects that aren’t part of big federal categories supposed to get funded?"

Is this a serious question? At first I laughed because I thought it was sarcastic, but then I read it again and feared that maybe a Democrat was asking it as a serious question.

Answer: our founding fathers never imagined the federal government would be responsible for providing vast amounts of largesse for every county road, bridge, or library. LOCAL projects are supposed to be funded by LOCAL taxes.

If you still can't see the problem with earmarks, consider what 19th century French historian Alexis de Tocqueville (hardly a conservative) once said:
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

Huh.....sound familiar?

Posted by: dbw1 | October 8, 2008 2:44 PM | Report abuse

Actually, Ruth Marcus doesn't endorse McCain's plan, and points out its worst flaws:

"There are, certainly, serious flaws in McCain's plan. Younger, healthier employees would have an incentive to drop employer coverage and purchase cheap private insurance, driving up costs for companies left with the oldest, sickest workers. Eventually, many employers, especially smaller ones, would stop offering insurance. On the open market, McCain would leave insurance companies free to cherry-pick the healthiest enrollees.

In the face of these problems, McCain's plan does not do anywhere near enough to help those who face unaffordable premiums. Moreover, because the tax credit is indexed only to overall inflation and not to the faster increase in health-care costs, its value could erode significantly over time. "

Worst of all, if you are hit by these unaffordable premiums because your employer is now insuring only the older, sicker employees - it's TAXED as, as McCain puts it, "gilt edged" care.

Even worse is if you're having to pay those huge premiums yourself.

McCain's health care plan is truly dreadful.

Breast Cancer Survivors for Obama 08!!!!

Posted by: VirginiaGal2 | October 8, 2008 2:49 PM | Report abuse

dbw1:

What is your view of PolitiFact.com , then? Their tallies of analyzed untrue statements are roughly comparable between the candidates.

I happen to think such numbers tell you nothing about objectivity one way or the other, but if you want balance in the tallies, there you have it.

We can simply disagree on the matter of media bias.

Both candidates are twisting the truth and oversimplifying to manipulate voters. I'll base my vote on whose policy I prefer rather than hold a race to see who the bigger liar is.

If pressed: My personal view is that the amount of truth-twisting is comparable, but the invectiveness of the McCain/Palin distortions is substantially more severe. But this is subjective, and we can again just disagree.

As to "Two-Faced Democrats", and all the other pejorative comments by both sides here, all I can say is: "Please stop". These are not at all convincing tactics: Ad homonym indicates a weakness of position, not conviction.

I love my country, and I want to make the best, most informed choice I can for it. I think you and JakeD do too, despite the fact that we've clearly come to different conclusions.

[JakeD: I realize my message is too long. I apologize.]

Posted by: RPW2: | October 8, 2008 3:07 PM | Report abuse

Free health insurance for people who don't want to work and illegal immigrants who already cost us billions each year, great plan Obama. Come on people, Obama speaks only of hope and his vision rather then what is best for all. I for one do not feel I need to pay for other peoples health insurance because it already cost me thousands each year. Where would the money come from?

Posted by: James | October 8, 2008 3:23 PM | Report abuse

James, Obama's plan is not free health insurance, nor is it for those who don't want to work. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most government benefits.

Obama's plan is not about you paying for others health insurance as much as providing a structure, regulatory and incentives, to allow more people to buy coverage.

Much of it would come from shared risk pools, and other sensible ways to extend coverage to those not covered today. Best of all, unlike McCain's plan, it does not destroy existing health insurance through employers.

A few more people (mostly poor kids) would get free health insurance. I don't begrudge helping poor kids.

Further, OBAMA'S PLAN IS ONLY A HAIR MORE EXPENSIVE THAN MCCAIN'S, although Obama's is likely to help cover 20-30 times more people.

Finally, it provides protection for those of us, like myself, who cannot buy individual insurance.

Breast Cancer Survivors for Obama 08!!!

Posted by: VirginiaGal2 | October 8, 2008 3:29 PM | Report abuse

RPW2:

I accept your apology.

Posted by: JakeD | October 8, 2008 3:32 PM | Report abuse

Man, dbw1 and suchlike. Do you realize that we in the states send taxes and other money to the federal government. The purpose of that government is to look out for all of us. When the Feds give states and local governments money, it is just their proportional due. We aren't being bribed, we're just using our own money appropriately.

Posted by: Electronwriter | October 8, 2008 3:36 PM | Report abuse

After reading the blogs here, CNN, and other places I get the impression that some Republicans are still confused why people are choosing to vote for Sen. Obama.
So in case anyone is wondering I am going to give some reasons why I am voting for him.


I am a single mother of a 13 year old boy. I have been on welfare, received AFDC up until my son was two maybe three. I put myself through school,completed some college units, then finally became a LVN/LPN.
I have lived with my mom, my aunt, and on my own because for those who live "right above the proverty line" life is and has been very hard. I have had two and three part-time jobs at a time to try and I stress the word try and make ends meet. I didn't have health insurance or any type of insurance until almost three years ago when I got my first full-time job. I have been pretty involved with my son's academic career so I am not one of those, "on welfare and uses the money to sell drugs and not feed their children." I could go on and on but why. I think you get the point. I know that politicians are shady. We all know that. We know that they can't necessarily back up what they say when they are trying to win votes but I rather believe Obama then Mc Cain. I don't think Mc Cain has any concept about my issues. I am in no man's land. Neither poor nor rich. Just to give you an idea of my life: my friend and I were talking just this morning about how much money we have in our bank accounts and we are both glad its not in the negative. I have 13 dollars and thank God I get paid on Friday.
So you see I am not voting for Obama because he is my Messiah because he is not and will never be. There is only One. I am not voting for Obama just because he is Black because as my co-worker said on Monday, "we wouldn't vote for Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson", (no offense guys please). I am not some lemming or sheep for that matter that is just blindly believing all that he says because I go to the weblinks that Conservatives put on the blogs to get the otherside of the coin. Before I heard about Obama I liked Mc Cain but when he chose Palin that went right out of the window. Also his behavior each of the debates leaves a more and more negative impression of who he is really. He is the true condescending elitist. But really I think I have typed enough. I have a US bond that I bought when my son was born for $50. Who can tell me what it is worth right now. That was the beginning savings for my son's college fund. I have an ING direct account that I was using to start save money. How much of my hard earned savings have I lost because of Mc Cain's vote to deregulate banks? Am I wrong here. I know someone is out there ready to inform me of the error of my liberal ways.

Just an aside...My opinion on why Obama doesn't get really specific with his answers. Its because the minute he does get specific and he gets elected into office and he can't deliever on some or all of his promises then White people quickly followed by everybody else will impeach him for breach of contract or some such thing. Yes the election to a certain extent is about race because contrary to belief racism still exists.

Posted by: Concernedcitizen | October 8, 2008 3:43 PM | Report abuse

Irrespective of candidate, this "lack of specifics" complaint is a bit frustrating.

The interviews of CNN "persuadable undecided voters" laid out the all-too-familiar chant that the candidates haven't yet really provided any details. This puzzles me.

Both candidates lay out their policy proposals on their websites. There are some ambiguities on both sides in that, but there are also quite a number of details -- and the technical and high-level differences in the policies are fairly clear.

Providing such details in a debate format is simply infeasible. At some point people actually have to go out and make a bit more effort that showing up and listening.

Posted by: RPW2: | October 8, 2008 4:05 PM | Report abuse

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html

Obama is #2 in contributions from Fannie and Freddie. I really don't care if he was #3, the fact is he is on the take!

Posted by: Elaborate | October 8, 2008 4:08 PM | Report abuse

When the Feds give states and local governments money, it is just their proportional due.

Posted by: Electronwriter | October 8, 2008 3:36 PM

So you think Alaska is getting its "proportional" due? Really?

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 4:22 PM | Report abuse

Irrespective of candidate, this "lack of specifics" complaint is a bit frustrating.

The interviews of CNN "persuadable undecided voters" laid out the all-too-familiar chant that the candidates haven't yet really provided any details. This puzzles me.

Posted by: RPW2: | October 8, 2008 4:05 PM

Those people arent really undecided on issues. All issues voters have made up their mind already. As you said, there's no reason not to decide. McCain and Obama arent even close on issues.

Those last undecided voters are concerned with personality and character (whether the realize it or not). That's the reason you always see personal attacks in the last few weeks of an election.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 8, 2008 4:30 PM | Report abuse

Obama was not a member of the Senate when that bill was voted on. He was still a Congressman in IL. He did, however, speak out, forcefully, against the war. Had he been a member of the Senate, I am pretty sure he would have voted against it.

Posted by: Lgaide | October 7, 2008 9:58 PM

*****************************************************

Obama was a state Senator in the Illinois legislature at the time of the Iraq War vote in the U.S. Senate.

Posted by: ldsw | October 8, 2008 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Real Brother here.

I think its so lame, that McCain is out and out LYING while Obama is being sincere and any mistakes he makes are small and unintentional.

I understand that McCain being behind causes him to but slimy but much of the reason he's behind is because he's sleezy and slimy.

How many times are they going to play the Race Card and suggest Obama "doesn't understand" or he's "uppitty" or a terrorist or genetically inferior because he's Black?

Its lame(thus the moniker McLame).

TKCAL

Posted by: Realbrother | October 8, 2008 8:52 PM | Report abuse

Maybe I can find the answer to my questions here, since no one's answered them in other comment venues:

To survive a POW camp in Vietnam, did one have to collaborate to survive or did one not?

And, if one had to collaborate and DID, is that person a "war hero"?

Posted by: bryony1 | October 8, 2008 8:53 PM | Report abuse

With regard to the person writing about the obama/Hitler connection, you'd best check with Cheney and Bush as to how to intimidate the public like Hitler and his goons did. They're the experts.

Just a palin quote to ponder,

"While acknowledging that the legislation was "well-intended" and "the desire to make a difference is noble," Andrews warned that "mixing moral and political agendas at the expense of our citizens' financial security is not a good combination." (Palin economic adviser before Alaska Rep. Committee to divest state of Sudan related investments.)

Gov. Palin and her economic advisers seemed to have a hard time deciding where moral issues begin and financial issues end. This must be hard for born again Christian.

Posted by: jedG | October 8, 2008 8:54 PM | Report abuse

Real Brother here.

I agree with Anonymous when he said that the so called undecideds aren't undecided on issues. Yet I also disagree that its about personality.

The truth is White Racists, hard core White Supremacists and Black man hating lesbians are conflicted and undecided about how they can actually vote for a Black man when they are Racists, White Supremacists and Black man hating lesbians.

Let's be honest here. Anyone who is NOT a Racist, White Supremacist or Black man hating lesbian is voting for Obama.

These Idiots can't name ONE issue that has not been detailed in full.

TKCAL

Posted by: Realbrother | October 8, 2008 8:59 PM | Report abuse

Real Brother here.

Concerned, I feel ya'. You don't have to defend yourself against these Racists, White Supremacists and Black man hating lesbians as to why you support the BEST and most QUALIFIED candidate for the office of President.

If Barack Obama wasn't BLACK then then the same Racists and White Supremacists and Black man hating lesbians who are supporting John McCain and Sarah Palin would be pulling on his coat and corrupting him like they have Bush and McCain(Reagan,Clinton and everyone else).

So in part being BLACK is a good thing for Obama because he won't have to answer to the Racists, White Supremacists and Black man hating lesbians because they didn't support his campaign, he in essence will owe those Idiots nothing.

TKCAL

Posted by: Realbrother | October 8, 2008 9:07 PM | Report abuse

Much is said over and over that $18B in earmarks is only a small part of the budget. True. However, the thing that is being missed and certainly not mentioned by McCain is that earmarks are symptomatic of a rot that infests our political system. One could argue quite convincingly that although eliminating earmarks would have a cleansing effect on the political process that goes far beyond the $18B for earmarks. The result would be not just saving $18B (not an insignificant amount) but the beneficial effect on Washington, resulting in better legislation and government that will be worth much more than $18B.

Posted by: Bill | October 8, 2008 10:25 PM | Report abuse

the electronic computer was originally developed by the military in conjunction with university scientists to calculate trajectories for naval gunnery. IBM was the winner among the companies (i.e., Burroughs, Sperry) that sought to develop mainframe computers commercially. Apple was not the first personal computer, just the most successful.

Posted by: burt mac-holmes | October 9, 2008 12:16 AM | Report abuse

So apparentley Mrs. Obama knew Mrs. Ayers way before the time frame Sen. Obama gave us. After Mrs. Ayers was released from jail she was given a job at a law firm that Mrs. Obama worked for, hmmm.
Wake up and realize that Sen. Obama has way to many ties to people who have been labeled terrorist or corrupt Middle Eastern businessmen from Syria.

Posted by: Jacko | October 9, 2008 9:34 AM | Report abuse

What's in the heart comes out via the tongue! >From
> Rush Limbaugh's radio show yesterday.....
>
> "Hey,
> folks, you want to tweak the Drive-By Media with me right
> now? You are
> aware, probably, that Barack Obama lost his bearings
> recently and said
> that he was going to campaign in all 57 states. You heard
> this? And
> everybody chalked it up to, 'Well, he's tired.'
>
> You know, this
> is a Dan Quayle moment. I mean, Dan Quayle goes out there
> and misspells
> 'potato,' and we still hear jokes about it. Barack
> Obama says he's
> gonna go out and campaign in 57 states, he was just tired,
> you know,
> it's been such a long campaign, he's been so many
> places, he probably
> thinks there are 57 states.
>
> Well, I have here a printout from a
> web site called the International Humanist and Ethical
> Union. And here
> is how the second paragraph of an article on that website
> begins.'Every
> year from 1999 to 2005 the organization of the Islamic
> conference
> representing the 57 Islamic states presented a resolution
> to the United
> Nations Commission on human rights called combating...
>
'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_the_Islamic_Conference.'
>
> Obama
> said he's going to campaign in 57 states, and it turns
> out that there
> are 57 Islamic states. There are 57 Islamic states. So did
> Obama just
> lose his bearings, or was this a more telling slip, ladies
> and
> gentlemen? KEEP IT GOING, FOLKS! The kind of change this
> guy has in
> mind will end the modern world as we now know it."



Posted by: Jacko | October 9, 2008 12:26 PM | Report abuse

Thinking voters don't assume Obama's statements are true. It just happens that the things Obama says tend to reflect the facts more often that the things that McCain does.

I don't even really think this reflects that poorly on McCain. It is more circumstances. McCain is getting spanked in this election, so he and other conservatives end up grasping at straws.

If Obama was getting creamed like McCain is, he'd probably be making a lot more desperate attacks as well.

Its sometimes hard for me to be sure if some of the reactionaries commenting on this column just have an incredibly distorted view of the world or if they have an accurate view of the world but just don't let that get in the way of the crazy things they want to say.

Posted by: lol | October 9, 2008 1:54 PM | Report abuse

"McCain said twice that Obama never took on his party. Didn't he take them on when he voted against the war?" Posted by: bill
------------------------------------------
Bill, Obama was not a sitting US senator at the time the vote was brought to the floor. Obama never voted, but he likes to make it sound like he did. He likes to re-write history because the elite socialist media won't challenge him. Bill people like you actually buy into it because it is easier to believe his crap than to actually factcheck.

Again, this is the problem with the Obama koolaid drinkers, they don't have any facts to back up anything substantive about Obama. The only thing Obama has managed to accomplish in his life time, is that he is a terrible judge of character, which is because Obama himself lacks character and honesty.

Posted by: Adrian | October 9, 2008 3:09 PM | Report abuse

McCain is switching campaign theme songs. Here’s the new one...

Sung to the tune of 'Send in the Clowns'.

(With apologies to Judy Collins)

Isn't it rich, aren't we the pair!
Me here at last, you're just hot air.
Borrow a jet, let’s hit the town
Time to make tracks,
Let’s send in the clowns.

Isn't it bliss, with you in the room!
I keep drooling my Ensure
And you ride a broom
Where are the clowns?
Buy me some clowns!
Lets send in the clowns.

(Church Choir Sings)
I'll take D.C., Wasilla is yours,
We'll bet the future, on the Standard and Poors
You make an entrance with that big Bouffant hair,
Not sure of your lines?
Lets see if they care
Send in some clowns
There’s gotta be clowns!

Don'tcha you love farce?
My fault my dear,
I thought that they'd want what I want,
Wasn't I clear?
But where are my clowns?
I bought surplus clowns!
Those @*!#$ clowns!

(Church Choir Sings again)
What a surprise!
Who could foresee
A skinny black guy, more likable than me?
Must be the press
How could that be?
Send in those clowns!
My GOP clowns!

Isn't it rich, the worst of my fears!
That I lost the race to a guy with big ears
And where are my clowns?
My GOP clowns?

Don't bother, we're here.

Posted by: GOP Clowns | October 9, 2008 3:41 PM | Report abuse

It certainly is interesting to note that there was only one statement of Sen. Obama's checked here, and it was a merely innocuous statement about computers.

However, your own fact checking write ups are mis-leading themselves. You are quick to point out anything you determine is misleading, which was in fact only one item.

However, on the others the writeup itself is written in a way to make it seem as though the comments were misleading even when they weren't and on the ones that were in fact correct, instead of just saying that, you offer explanations as to why the fact is the way it is.

For example, with the earmarks claim, you never say it is wrong, you just make a claim that 16 billion dollars is only a small amount.

You could have just said that Sen. McCain was right.

Just another example of the media leaning to the left.

For those of you that blindly believe anything the mainstream media says, you are like lemmings and you will get the government you deserve. For those of you who believer everything Fox News says, same thing.

People, look into all the issues and learn the truth for yourselves. It is hard, because the mainstream media really does lean left and they just spew love for Obama, and Fox News is out in right field and they are in love with McCain.

Dig, claw, scratch and fight to get to the truth and then you can make an educated selection.

You won't get the truth from this rag.

Posted by: Richard | October 9, 2008 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Re: computer.

I think you got this wrong and Obama was accurate.

The first electronic computer, ENIAC, was created by government (Army) scientists who hoped to communicate (more precisely, coding and codebreaking), in the early 1940s.

Posted by: metrometro | October 9, 2008 6:42 PM | Report abuse

Since Michael Dobbs seems to have such a difficult time finding things to fact-check on Obama/Biden, I thought I should help him out....just because that's the helpful kind of guy I am.

Go to Obama's own web-site, and find the "Fight the Smears" link, and read the ACORN piece. It says:
"Fact: ACORN was not part of 'Project Vote', the successful voter registration drive Barack ran in 1992."

Now, go to wikipedia and look up 'Project Vote'. It says:
" 'Project Vote', one of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) "family of organizations" according to ACORN founder Wade Rathke's blog, often coordinates voter registration campaigns with local chapters of that community organization."

So, Barack Obama's own web-site claims Project Vote is not associated with ACORN. But ACORN's own founder and leader says "Project Vote" is part of their association.

So which Democrat is lying?

Posted by: dbw1 | October 9, 2008 9:05 PM | Report abuse

And there is a new forum at http://www.votenic.com so see what America thinks.

Posted by: Brandon | October 9, 2008 9:23 PM | Report abuse

Why hasn't FOX or anybody for that matter done a one hour special on the Alaska Independence Party??

You know the secessionist group Todd Palin supported up until 2002? Am I to believe that he had no influence on Sarah, his wife??

Guilty by association right? So, is Sarah in favor of Alaska leaving the U.S. of A??

What a great choice she was by McCain.

Posted by: Dan | October 9, 2008 9:25 PM | Report abuse

@dbw1

Since when is wikipedia a reliable source of information? For all we know you just wrote that article on the spot.

Posted by: lol | October 9, 2008 10:33 PM | Report abuse

Why hasn't FOX or anybody for that matter done a one hour special on the Alaska Independence Party??

Posted by: Dan | October 9, 2008 9:25 PM


Because there's nothing there. Reporters were digging like mad for dirt on Palin up in Alaska. If there was an issue with the AIP, that low hanging fruit would be on the front page. There's just nothing worth reporting.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 9, 2008 10:53 PM | Report abuse

lol:

You are correct that wikipedia is not always 100% reliable. That's why I double-checked the information on the blog of ACORN's founder, who made the statement, to verify it's accuracy.

So, you're admitting you don't have the capacity to respond to the fact that either Obama or ACORN is lying about his association with them, so you were left to meekly attack the source. That crutch has been taken away from you, so now what?

Posted by: dbw1 | October 10, 2008 8:54 AM | Report abuse

One more for you to fact-check, Mr. Dobbs:

Obama used to assert that he didn't really know this "Bill Ayers", and only met him a couple times.

Then, he had been conceding he knew him as 'a guy in the neighborhood', and ran into him here and there as part of being on the same boards, but didn't know anything about his past.

Yesterday, Obama said sure, he knew Bill Ayers and had worked with him on many occassions, but thought "he had been rehabilitated". Of course, why would you think someone has been rehabilited unless you knew there was something for which he needed rehabilitation? But I thought Obama knew nothing of Ayers past during the time he worked with him?

So since you do such a bang-up job with your fact-checking, I figured there was no one better to sort this out for us.

Either Obama was lying before about not knowing about Bill Ayers past, or he's lying now. Frankly, I'm not sure it's that big of a deal either way, I would just like to know what the truth is, and which Obama statement is the lie.

Thanks.

Posted by: dbw1 | October 10, 2008 9:07 AM | Report abuse

I think it's worth noting that:
- Sarah Palin started the Bill Ayers attacks last weekend.
- McCain ads incorporating the Bill Ayers attacks started two days ago.

Anyone who has been frequenting the Washington Post "Fact-Checker" Michael Dobbs knows that if McCain/Palin were blowing smoke or outright lying, Dobbs would be all over it and would have posted at least one, if not several, 'fact-checks' debunking the McCain/Palin claims.


So far from Michael Dobbs.....silence.


Dobbs silence on the Bill Ayers ads & allegations is much louder than anything a McCain supporter could shout at the top of their lungs....

Posted by: dbw1 | October 10, 2008 9:14 AM | Report abuse

Sen. Obama is now spending millions just to get back on TV and give another speech of "Hope" and "Prosperity for the Middle Class". What a bunch of hoopla and I for one will not vote for someone with the name Barrack Hussien Obama because to me that is a disgrace to our country. He may be a great speaker of words, but to lead this country we need more then just words and he can't provide that. McCain/Palin all the way and it sounds more American then a someone with a middle name Hussien.

Posted by: James | October 10, 2008 9:40 AM | Report abuse

@dbw1

You admit that wikipedia isn't reliable, but I'm supposed to take the word of an anonymous poster on a message board?

How about you post some links to your "verification", rather than posting your somewhat suspicious assurances?

I'm not sure how my pointing out that your sources are unreliable constitutes an admission of anything though. I don't see any reason to believe the ACORN/Obama connection is anything other than a conspiracy theory from some paranoid right-wingers.

I still don't have any idea what is so bad about ACORN anyway. After the widespread and well documented Republican voter fraud in 2004, I can't imagine ya'll would find a few duplicate registrations all that upsetting.

Any substantiated claims you'd like to make? Or do you feel more comfortable staying in innuendo-land?

Posted by: lol | October 11, 2008 12:53 AM | Report abuse

The US is diying politicaly speaking.8yrs of bush mismanegament throwing the country into an economical, military and social catastrophies, now you have to choose your next leader from a bunch of political enepts.
Obama has a few good policies but has no enough experience nor inner strenght to cary them out.Mc Cain will only let the US sink in deeper problems than it is already in with unreasonable policies and the wrong attitude toward other world powers. Poor VP picks Joe/ Palin. Joe i would understand although Incopentent he's got lots of Experience but Palin She cant run her house she mismanaging Alaska she is completely clue less about foreign policies.
Russia, China, Iran and India are rising powers and they don't seem to like Americanism that much.
US this time you into more than what you asked for.

Posted by: Deal | October 12, 2008 11:14 PM | Report abuse

m5xshu6e1fd http://www.211106.com/193057.html > g7tqs4s3in5 [URL=http://www.817186.com/567509.html] 5x3b2f5fz3vi3lzc [/URL] v2r15pvyzrhex

Posted by: mbjyok2ck8 | October 15, 2008 6:06 PM | Report abuse

"Head of State" is an uneducated weirdo who thinks his/her writings are meaningful. You would think that the Washington Post would have a crazy & stupid post filter. Works like this: crazy is ok, stupid is ok. Both crazy & stupid gets deleted.

Posted by: AsperGirl | October 15, 2008 10:37 PM | Report abuse

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