Network News

X My Profile
View More Activity
  @GlennKesslerWP  |   Facebook  | Contact: factchecker@washpost.com  |  RSS Feeds RSS
Posted at 6:00 AM ET, 02/18/2011

Raymond Davis: Our man in Pakistan

By Glenn Kessler

"With respect to Mr. Davis, our diplomat in Pakistan, we've got a very simple principle here that every country in the world that is party to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations has upheld in the past and should uphold in the future, and that is if our diplomats are in another country, then they are not subject to that country's local prosecution."
--President Obama, Feb. 15, 2011

Raymond Davis is a former Special Forces soldier who, according to the State Department, works for the U.S. embassy in Pakistan. Last month, he shot and killed two Pakistani men in Lahore under mysterious circumstances.

Davis has claimed the men were trying to rob him. The incident took place about eight miles from the U.S. consulate, and Davis was carrying loaded weapons and had a GPS satellite device in his possession. U.S. officials say the men pointed weapons at Davis and he thought his life was in danger. Police say Davis shot each victim five times, including in their backs, and lied to police about how he arrived at the scene.

In a video of his questioning released by Pakistani police, Davis identifies himself as an employee at the consulate in Lahore, saying, "I just work as a consultant there."

Another consulate vehicle, a Toyota Land Cruiser with tinted windows -- which, according to a police report, arrived after the incident in an apparent effort to rescue Davis -- struck and killed a motorcyclist in the aftermath of the shooting. The widow of one of the men killed by Davis then committed suicide.

Four dead people and an imprisoned American are a recipe for a diplomatic disaster. The United States has insisted that Davis, as an embassy employee, has diplomatic immunity and must be released. Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.), a major backer of $3 billion in aid to Pakistan, flew to the country this week to press for Davis's release and predicted the case would be completed "in the next few days." But a Pakistani court on Thursday gave the Pakistani government three more weeks to determine whether Davis qualifies for diplomatic immunity.

President Obama raised the stakes in the dispute at his news conference this week, when he referred to Davis as "our diplomat in Pakistan." The president's phrasing went beyond the State Department's assertion that Davis was a member of the "administrative and technical staff" at the embassy.

Senior State Department officials have said that Davis was not supposed to carry a weapon in Pakistan, while other U.S. officials said that he was a security contractor and did have permission to carry the weapon.

Pakistani news reports have said Davis worked for the Central Intelligence Agency, but the United States has steadfastly declined to say anything beyond the fact that he works for the U.S. government.

Clearly the pin-striped set has evolved over the years, but many Pakistanis have alleged that Davis is a spy who must face justice for the killings. So does he have diplomatic immunity?

The Facts

The key document governing diplomatic immunity is, as the president stated, the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, specifically articles 29, 31, 37, and 39. The articles must be read together to get a full understanding of their meaning. Here are the key points:

  • A diplomatic agent "shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention." (article 29)
  • "A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State," with certain exceptions involving property and commercial activity. (article 31)
  • "Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of their families" will have the same privileges and immunities in articles 29 and 31 as long as they are not nationals or permanent residents of the country. The one exception is that they are not immune from civil suits for acts performed outside the course of their official duties. (In other words, they can be sued if they run someone over when they are off on vacation.) (article 37)
  • "Every person entitled to privileges and immunities shall enjoy them from the moment he enters the territory of the receiving State on proceeding to take up his post or, if already in its territory, from the moment when his appointment is notified to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs or such other ministry as may be agreed." (article 39)

The U.S. embassy appears to have complicated matters by first sending a diplomatic note to the Pakistani Foreign Ministry on Jan. 27 describing Davis as "an employee of U.S. Consulate General Lahore and holder of a diplomatic passport." A second note, on Feb. 3, described him as "a member of the administrative and technical staff of the U.S. embassy."

The difference in the phrasing of Davis's employment has allowed Pakistani officials to argue that Davis is actually covered by 1963 Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, and thus has a lesser form of immunity.

However, Article 43 of that Convention states that "consular officers and consular employees shall not be amenable to the jurisdiction of the judicial or administrative authorities of the receiving State in respect of acts performed in the exercise of consular functions." There are exceptions for some civil disputes, such as "damage arising from an accident in the receiving State caused by a vehicle, vessel or aircraft."

The State Department insists that Davis was identified to the Pakistani government as a member of the technical and administrative staff of the embassy when he arrived in the country, and as such enjoys full immunity. John B. Bellinger III, a partner at Arnold & Porter who was the chief State Department legal adviser in the Bush administration, said in any case he would be fully covered as a consular employee as well.

"It's my understanding that State notified him as a member of the Embassy A&T staff, not consular staff," Bellinger said. "But consular staff also enjoy immunity from the jurisdiction of the receiving state with respect to their consular functions."

Bellinger added: "People are overblowing the 'administrative and technical' staff distinction and making it sound like it's something nefarious, which it is not. It is not a made-up term. A&T staff are an accepted category of staff assigned to an Embassy or Consulate, and are described in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations."

State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said that U.S. diplomats do not carry cards attesting to their diplomatic immunity. "Once we provide a diplomatic note that an individual has arrived in country, from that point forward, he or she has diplomatic immunity," he said.

Complicating matters even further is that the language of the 1972 Pakistani law implementing the 1961 Vienna Convention puts the onus on the country's weak government to certify that the person in question has diplomatic immunity if a dispute arises. "The federal government is scratching its head, struggling [with] what stand to take, how to bridge this gap between the Vienna Convention and the deficient implementing law," Pakistani international law expert Ahmer Bilal Soofi told National Public Radio.

In the United States, there have been several high-profile cases in which foreigners have escaped prosecution because of diplomatic immunity, at one point leading to an unsuccessful push in Congress to strip relatives and dependents of diplomats of the privilege.

In 1982, the son of the Brazilian ambassador to the United States shot and seriously wounded a D.C. nightclub bouncer and escaped prosecution because of diplomatic immunity. The State Department even allowed him to stay in Washington.

In 1981, the son of a low-ranking attaché at the Ghanian U.N. mission was arrested in New York after a series of violent rapes at knifepoint. Although two of the victims positively identified their alleged assailant, he was released 45 minutes after he was taken to a police station for questioning and later returned to Ghana. "He looked at me when he left the precinct house and snickered and said, 'I told you I had diplomatic immunity,' " the police detective later told Congress. "He was looking at the women, too, and laughing. They were crying hysterically."

In 1997, Gueorgui Makharadze, the number-two official in the Georgian embassy and a rising diplomatic star, killed a teenage girl in a drunk-driving incident in Washington. In that case, the Georgian government waived his immunity after a request from the State Department; he went on trial and was convicted of manslaughter. The Georgian president at the time, Eduard Shevardnadze, called for new rules on diplomatic immunity, saying, "I cannot imagine diplomacy and politics devoid of moral principle."

The Pinocchio Test

If the State Department is correct and Davis was identified as a member of the embassy's administrative and technical staff when he arrived in Pakistan -- and he was accepted by Pakistan on that basis -- then he should be covered by the Vienna Convention and receive diplomatic immunity, no matter what his job was or how heinous his crimes. The United States has upheld that standard in the past, letting alleged criminals go free. It also does not matter what agency Davis works for back in the United States; U.S. embassies are often staffed with personnel from the Defense Department, Agriculture Department and the like, and they all have diplomatic immunity.

(Many governments place spies on their diplomatic employment list, and if caught by the host country, they are often ejected or exchanged for another spy or prisioner. Some Pakistani officials have suggested that Davis could be exchanged for Aafia Siddiqui, an American-educated Pakistani who was sentenced to 86 years in prison for trying to kill her American interrogators in Afghanistan.)

President Obama, however, may have pushed the envelope when he referred to Davis as "our diplomat." Davis may have had diplomatic cover, but not many diplomats carry a Glock pistol -- and then use it with lethal results. The circumstances of his employment -- and the incident in Lahore -- remain too murky to make a definitive judgment on the president's statement at this point.

Withholding Judgment

(About our rating scale).

UPDATE, Feb. 21

The Obama administration's admission that Davis is a CIA operative now gives us cause to revisit this issue. Clearly, Obama stretched the truth when he called Davis "a diplomat." This is a legalistic formulation but it is misleading. We can understand the president's desire to protect Davis's identity but at the very least he should have come up with different words to describe him.

Two Pinocchios

(About our rating scale).


Follow The Fact Checker on Twitter and friend us on Facebook

By Glenn Kessler  | February 18, 2011; 6:00 AM ET
Categories:  2 Pinocchios, Barack Obama, Other Foreign Policy, Verdict Pending  
Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati   Google Buzz   Previous: Obama's misleading language on debt reduction in the 2012 budget
Next: A guide to gimmicks in the fiscal 2012 budget

Comments

.
this is more than a little suspicious, Glenn.

You recognize that President Obama lied when he said that Mr. Davis was a "Diplomat."
But then you say that the "circumstances of his employment ... remain too murky to make a definitive judgment on the president's statement ..."

Is this because you see yourself as part of the state machinery of statecraft and diplomacy ?
.

Posted by: BrianX9 | February 18, 2011 6:36 AM | Report abuse

I think people should thoroughly study the vienna convention's Pargraph 31's subparagraph (b) which is

He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of :
(a) a real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State, unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;
(b) an action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor, administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;

This is the original text written in Vienna convention. if still Mr. Davis enjoys immunity , US Government should Waive it off as killing 4 innocent people is a SERIOUS CRIME.

Posted by: RajaAsimNaveed | February 18, 2011 6:37 AM | Report abuse

RajaAsimNaveed
As much as I think our president insulted the entire foreign service by calling "Davis" a diplomat the subparagraphs (a) and (b) of Paragraph 31 are referring to property
transactions such as real estate or property
that may be transferred by will after someone's death.

Review the American definition of the word "succession" in regards to inheritance.

Posted by: glenmayne | February 18, 2011 7:41 AM | Report abuse

I saw a photo of Mr. Davis' visa in Dawn, a legitimate Pakistani English-language newspaper. It appears that he entered the country on an official visit, not with a diplomatic visa. His passport was not shown so I couldn't tell if he entered on an official passport or a diplomatic passport.

This was a good article but glossed over some items. Was he really an employee of the Consulate and therefore covered by consular immunity only in the course of his official duties? Was he in the course of his official duties? If so, at some point the U.S. will have to say what those duties were. Evidence seems to indicate that he was assigned to the Consulate since the GPS in his vehicle reportedly shows that he left his house just before the incident.

Was he an employee of the Embassy? If so, what was his position? Technical and administrative personnel have specific jobs. Also, from my experience overseas, not all U.S. citizens at the Embassy are covered by full diplomatic immunity (the same type given to the ambassador and the deputy chief of mission). People at a lower level have limited diplomatic immunity.

All in all, this case is still quite murky.

Posted by: TheEagle1 | February 18, 2011 8:13 AM | Report abuse

"President Obama, however, may have pushed the envelope when he referred to Davis as 'our diplomat'".

No one seems to have any idea just what capacity Davis serves, however it is quite obvious that - once again - President Obama has lied. Please, Mr. President, cite ONE other example of an American diplomat driving or walking around in a foreign nation without security but carrying a loaded weapon himself.

When is the American public going to awaken to the fact that every time he speaks, Obama lies!

Posted by: Hazmat77 | February 18, 2011 8:16 AM | Report abuse

The case is getting more difficult and murkier every day, with the family of the man run over and killed when the 2nd SUV was trying to get away now insisting that the driver be tried in courts. The US should respond by freezing all aid and stopping all movement on visa applications filed by Pakistanis till the matter is solved.

Posted by: dennisdey | February 18, 2011 9:15 AM | Report abuse

I find it interesting that all of a sudden we cite international law and convention, after years of "my way or the highway" politics.
If we are such a law abiding country, how come we are still in violation of the Geneva convention (check the Red Cross reports),
spying on UN diplomats in New York ...
Furthermore, for a diplomat to be accredited they have to provide an official letter of accreditation to the foreign ministery of the respective country. So both Pakistan and the US should have a copy of this. How about making this available?

Posted by: pabloemma | February 18, 2011 9:19 AM | Report abuse

Americans need to remember that President Bush and Cheney ignored and violated international agreements with impunity. These include the Geneva Convnetion, the Convention against Torture (signed by Reagan) and the Vienna Consular convention (holding foreign nationals without charge), among others.

When a country, in this case the US, shows such wanton disregard for international law, it should come as no surprise that other countries, in this instance Pakistan, will be less inclined to respond promptly to the USG's demand for diplomatic immunity for Mr. Davis. This is not a subtle point.

Posted by: DCsandiego | February 18, 2011 9:33 AM | Report abuse

Obviously our president is lying as usual.
The United States is such a two faced government, they break diplomatic laws every day but howel and whine like babies when one of their cia spies gets busted for offing a couple of eople in a foreign country.
The use will simply pay off the families of the murdered men a couple of million dollars each and the pakistani government will let the spy go because they don't want their 31.2 billion dollars of pay off money to be stopped by the usa.
That is what will happen with this case, and once again, Obama has shown the world what a consumate liar he is.

Posted by: JimW2 | February 18, 2011 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Glenn
You jumped the gun.
The steps for diplomatic immunity are as follows:
1. Was Davis a U.S. Government employee or a contractor hired under a PSC (personal service contract). If the latter there is no immunity. Apparently Davis had a pay stub with him when he was arrested that indicated the latter, which is what he also told the Lahore police.
2. How did Davis enter Pakistan? It appears that he entered in 2009, on a diplomatic passport with diplomatic visa - which then expired. He later reentered Pakistan on his own passport with a new business visa. That would be illegal for a valid diplomat entering the USA.
3. You forgot to mention the 25 Jan, 2011, diplomatic note in which the US did not mention Davis as an employee. He was only added to the list of diplomats AFTER the killings.
4. I was issued a diplomatic passport by the State Dept. for a PRT position in Iraq in 2008, but was told I would not have any diplomatic immunity. They do not go hand in hand.
5. You forgot to mention the driver of the second vehicle who ran over and killed a Pakistani motorcycle driver. The U.S. has neither identified him nor turned him over to the authorities. What is the story with that? So much for open-ness. Excellent diplomacy by our people.
Matthew Nasuti
Reporter - Kabul Press

Posted by: mattnasuti | February 18, 2011 10:17 AM | Report abuse

Good interchange here. This is what a blog SHOULD be. Thanks to Glenn and to the people who have responded with thoughtful counterpoints.

Posted by: sasquatchbigfoot | February 18, 2011 11:09 AM | Report abuse

Even though I was supporter but it appears that the President really lacks experience in various areas. He has blown every opportunity to do something meaningful. On economic front he has been AL Bundi like handing vouchers to anyone in sight and hence ballooning the deficit and now end of America websites in their country are the most visited sites.
He has blown diplomatic opportunities also. He had a chance to build with Muslim World on with screwed policy of Bush but again he has blown it. He did absolutely nothing and Mubarak used to make fun of his naiveness and the American public 's simplicity for an unqualified man for the job.
He has blown in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain and now he is ruining it with Pakistan.
Who are to talk of international law. We arrested and held an ambassador Zareef of Afghanistan and put him in Guatanmo without respect for any law. Davis should be freed to save US Pakistan relations and should be put in trial in the USA. He is no different then a soldier killing a family out of his work duties. The copies of his private business visa are available online to view. He clearly was not a diplomat but a private contractor.

Posted by: ray7 | February 18, 2011 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Matthew Nasuti raises some interesting points. I had not heard of a Jan. 25 note but according to the Feb. 3 note, "the embassy duly notified the MFA on January 20, 2010 (U.S. Embassy diplomatic note 252HR) of Mr. Davis as a member of the administrative and technical staff of the U.S. Embassy." That would seem to predate the killings. Has a copy of diplomatic note 252HR been made public?

And I agree that Davis's statements to police and his movements are mysterious. Why did he not immediately claim diplomatic immunity, for instance?

Thanks also to the points raised by TheEagle1. This is very murky and let's keep following it. Post new information if you see it. Eventually, we hope, the truth will emerge.

Posted by: glennkessler | February 18, 2011 11:44 AM | Report abuse

The Fabius Maximus Blog has an excellent analysis and the link is

http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/24916/

Counterpunch.org has exellent analysis as usual and the link is

One Rule for Foreign Consulates in the US, Another for US Consulates Abroad

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff02172011.html

President Obama, before he was a President or a Senator, was a constitutional law professor. He should know the law.

And yet in the increasingly dangerous show-down over Pakistan's arrest and detention of Lahore consular contract "security official" Raymond Davis, who is charged with two counts of murder for theshooting deaths of two young Pakistanis on January 27, the president has grossly misstated what international law is with respect to the immunity from prosecution of diplomatic and consular officials.

The first problem is that Davis isn't a "diplomat." At best he's a consulate employee. Furthermore, whoever wrote the president his lines or gave him his background briefing sure didn't read the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963! Nor did he or she read a document issued last August by the US State Department titled: Diplomatic and Consular Immunity; Guidance for Law Enforcement and Judicial Authorities (Dept. of State Pub. 10524)
US State Dept. has one rule on immunity for consular officials here, another for our guys overseas

The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963.

And as that document states, in Article 41:

Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.

Murder would, of course, constitute such a "grave crime."

The document goes on to state:

Diplomatic immunity is not intended to serve as a license for persons to flout the law and purposely avoid liability for their actions.

The State Department guidance document notes that the staff of embassies are afforded the highest level of privileges and immunities in the host country (ambassadors and their immediate subordinates, such as the charge d'affaires) have virtually total immunity from detention and prosecution. But it goes on to state that it is another thing altogether when it comes to consular officials. Here the document states:

There is a common misunderstanding that consular personnel have diplomatic status and are entitled to absolute immunity.

Hmmmm. Sounds like what Obama is suffering just such a misunderstanding.

But as the State Department tells American law enforcement personnel:

Consular officers..have only official acts or functional immunity in respect of both criminal and civil matters and their personal inviolability is quite limited. Consular officers may be arrested and detained pending trial only if their offense is a felony and the arrest is made pursuant to a decision by a competent judicial authority.

The document also makes it clear that it is not up to the arrested consular

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 18, 2011 11:45 AM | Report abuse

This case is a litmus test PROOOOOF of how close OBAMA is to BUSH in the matter of their MINDS despite the difference of their FACES.

Webster Tarpley video on youtube on the men behind BARACK OBAMA explains it clearly.

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 18, 2011 11:51 AM | Report abuse

This is the original text written in Vienna convention. if still Mr. Davis enjoys immunity , US Government should Waive it off as killing 4 innocent people is a SERIOUS CRIME.
--------------------------------------
From what I understand the whole thing started when a few of the so called innocent people were trying ROB the man. I don't know where you come from...but theft is not an action of an innocent person! There was one innocent by-standard who was killed by the speeding SUV.

But, I will say there is something fishy about this American in jail...ex-special ops guy with a gun and GPS...hmmm...

Posted by: chefra | February 18, 2011 1:47 PM | Report abuse

Raymond Alien Davis - New REVELATIONS

A GPS chip recovered from the possession of Davis was being used in identifying targets for drone attacks in North Waziristan, claimed sources.

KARACHI: Investigation teams were astonished to learn about Raymond Davis’s alleged connections in North Waziristan, sources told DawnNews.

Sources have revealed that a GPS chip recovered from Davis was being used in identifying targets for drone attacks in the tribal region.

It was also learnt during the probe that Davis made upto 12 visits to the tribal areas without informing Pakistani officials.

[ ... ]

The US Embassy officials were exerting pressure on the authorities, asking them not to expose the information received from Davis.

rest of the excerpt at

credits:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/18/probe-finds-connection-between-davis-drone-attacks.html

His ISLAM HATRED from the prayer call and VULGAR language shows how morally DEPRAVED the guy is.

DARWINIST MATERIALIST ANTICHRIST FASCISTS of AMERICA of blackwater and like of neocons, bush-cheney, erik prince used Iraq's innocents to whet the appetite of these beasts and corrupt them. Pakistan and mountains of afghanistan is where they will get their due payment.

These are written in divine predictions 1400 years ago and their accuracy can be judges by the EXACT speed of light that the materialists worship their science and technology as their GOD.

http://www.speed-light.info/

Every miracle of quran (itself a continuous miracle) has its own time of unfolding.


Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 18, 2011 2:24 PM | Report abuse

Bullets were first fired from inside the car. Both had two bullets in the back and, in addition, had one bullet in the head.
That's the Lahore police report. Davis was also found with GPS tracking devices and chips, probably for additional drone attacks.
It appears that the claim of diplomatic immunity is being trumped up to a level that avoids Article 37 of the 1961 convention provides for limitations on immunity by stating:

"…Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29to 35, except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties."

The U.S. is trying to bump up Raymond's diplomatic immunity status to get him to qualify for article 31, which provides criminal immunity. They are protecting their own, but Pakistan rightfully sees this as a downright cheezy move.

The wife committed suicide because Pakistan was so weak in providing justice.

There better be a huge deal, preferably no more drone attacks, to get Raymond Davis out alive.

Posted by: jt11232 | February 18, 2011 2:33 PM | Report abuse

TheEagle1 said "I saw a photo of Mr. Davis' visa in Dawn, a legitimate Pakistani English-language newspaper. It appears that he entered the country on an official visit, not with a diplomatic visa. His passport was not shown so I couldn't tell if he entered on an official passport or a diplomatic passport."

I saw that photo of Davis's visa, and the visa number was preceded by the designator "CD" for Corps Diplomatique. The purpose of his visit was described as "official business," meaning, official diplomatic business. The visa is identical to those placed in my diplomatic passport by the same Pakistani embassy. Bottom line - Davis entered Pakistan on U.S. diplomatic business.

Posted by: AGringo | February 18, 2011 2:37 PM | Report abuse

Mr Kessler - Article 41 of the 1963 Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, which you have ommitted! states:

'1.Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.
2.Except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, consular officers shall not be committed to prison or be liable to any other form of restriction on their personal freedom save in execution of a judicial decision of final effect.
3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the competent authorities. Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by
reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, in a manner which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible. When, in the circumstances mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay.'

There is clearly a major concern in Pakistan about Mr Davis's status and activities !! and you have already admitted this ambiguity. The courts are determing the facts and if they decide that he was a consular employee then Article 41 appears pretty clear cut to me. Carrying ammunition, killing and then attempting to escape the scene of the crime is a pretty grave crime in anyone's books.

Do you agree?

Posted by: AmerH | February 18, 2011 2:56 PM | Report abuse

There better be a huge deal, preferably no more drone attacks, to get Raymond Davis out alive.

Posted by: jt11232 | February 18, 2011 2:33 PM | Report abuse
=======================

I disagree. Raymond must be tried and no deal. A deal will insult the institution of judiciary. Besides, ONLY the nearest kin can make the deal, not zardari, not nawaz, not army - and ONLY under ZERO PRESSURE and MIND CONTROL.

I urge the relatives to use the kosher argument in Islam/Judaism, ie to anyone asking for a deal to submit their own selves or their son to be executed in lieu. If they agree to that, then it is kosher.

There are three murders and their will have to be three submissions like this. This divine law ensures that an individual is not overrun by its society/tribe under pressure from another stronger one.

An example of white-brown equality has to be made on this planet since the times of western colonization and this is the time for it.

Last time Israel made it by sinking the USS liberty and killing 20 or so American sailers and Johnson himself covered it up.

Basically, I am waiting for some pakistani guest to advance this argument of Qisas and some scholar to bring it out. Zardari can submit his own blood or that of his dear son. Per Islamic historical tradition, the society has to establish stipend of any destitute member of the society, as the western society has adopted this from them in the form of social security widely exercised in europe for every child born.

The bail to be deposited is that of a person in lieu, not money so that roman polanskys with deep pockets dont run away after rapes. The victims become so traumatized that often they commit suicide or just ask cases to be withdrawn as Semantha Geimer is rumored to be doing.

The hatred of the equality of the Kosher Islamic and Judaic Law and its multifarious benefits is why the NEOCONS and ANTICHRIST FASCISTS who worship whats between their legs - staged the 911 inside job using nanothermite as one component of controlled domolitions.

Raymond Davis is a test case for all humanity, from south america , africa to asia and europe.

I would urge various world leaders to comment on the matter.

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 18, 2011 2:56 PM | Report abuse

I think many of the posters here -- as well as Glenn Kessler -- are making way too big a deal out of Obama saying "our diplomat" in relation to Davis. He probably just misspoke in this case, and is not lying or doing anything else the usual ranting lunatics who comment on Post stories say. A&T people at embassies and consulates do have immunity, as John Bellinger says in the story. Just who Davis is and what he was doing is an open question, however.
As for hazmat77's comment ["Please, Mr. President, cite ONE other example of an American diplomat driving or walking around in a foreign nation without security but carrying a loaded weapon himself."], you and a lot of other people -- including in the media -- are either ignorant or extremely naive. In countries where there are wars or other types of violence this is not unusual at all, whether or not the US embassy or consulate acknowledges it. Most embassy or consulate people have no security people with them as they go about their lives in foreign countries. Most don't carry guns, either, but some do so, legally or not. Just like in the US. I can give you plenty of examples, hazmat, but go ahead and rant all you want.

Posted by: Donzinho | February 18, 2011 3:02 PM | Report abuse

This comment section is excellent for maximizing/reaching to the truth. Its all about freedom. Its NOT a BIG DEAL but a REGULAR DEAL.

http://www.nkusa.org

Here is a link for your convenience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QfgvDXsDds

why was aafiya siddiqui trial not done in camera ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jif5N5EHorc

Islamic-Judaic law is the solution to the problemes of the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-r04SQ97_Q

Zionism = Materialism

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 18, 2011 3:53 PM | Report abuse

SCENARIOS-Shooting case tests US-Pakistan relations
Reuters - ‎22 minutes ago‎
US officials are putting heavy pressure on Pakistan's fragile government to secure the release of Raymond Davis, a former special forces soldier who they say is a US consular employee with diplomatic immunity. [ID:nSGE71H07J] Davis, whose precise ...
=======================
TWEET: LOL, this is not between US and Pak govts or ppl, its between Davis and the relatives of those he murdered.

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 18, 2011 4:04 PM | Report abuse

How are U.S. diplomats expected to do their Job?
If as it seems likely that Mr Davis was part of a security detail and the SUV contained the principal. When Mr Davis saw two teenagers on a motorbike stop in front of him in heavy traffic and suspected that one of them was armed what was he supposed to do? He did what he was trained to do, shoot 10 times through the windshield of the car. Maybe he murder a couple of innocent Pakistanis, but just maybe he neutralised a threat. The SUV with it's important cargo jumped the median and traveling at high speed crushed and killed a Pakistani bicyclist. What were they suppose to do? Just hang around in traffic and wait for the bad guys, or if there were no bad guys angry Pakistani bystanders, to attack them? If U.S. security contractors cannot shoot dead any Pakistani citizen who might even remotely, in their opinion, pose a threat and if U.S. Consulate vehicles cannot drive at high speed in the wrong lane against traffic and run over and kill any one, man, women or child who gets in their way, how can they possible do their critical job of diplomacy?

Posted by: socal90 | February 18, 2011 4:53 PM | Report abuse

I would just want to raise some points about mr. davis being suspicious person. What was an american couselate employee doing with a gun , binocular , maps , a camera in his shoes and pictures of sensitive areas of Pakistan? And how come he can speak Urdu and pashtu (redional language of talibans) fluently?

Posted by: sherdhillon | February 18, 2011 5:27 PM | Report abuse

It would be a great exercise in defense to show the lies in this fabrication in a logical and dispassionate manner. I am formatting for your convenience. Its likely a defense lawyer showing off his skill.

====================
>
> How are U.S. diplomats expected to do their Job?
>
> If as it seems likely that Mr Davis was part of a security detail and
> the SUV contained the principal. When Mr Davis saw two teenagers on a
> motorbike stop in front of him in heavy traffic and suspected that one
> of them was armed what was he supposed to do? He did what he was
> trained to do, shoot 10 times through the windshield of the car. Maybe
> he murder a couple of innocent Pakistanis, but just maybe he
> neutralised a threat. The SUV with it's important cargo jumped the
> median and traveling at high speed crushed and killed a Pakistani
> bicyclist. What were they suppose to do? Just hang around in traffic
> and wait for the bad guys, or if there were no bad guys angry
> Pakistani bystanders, to attack them? If U.S. security contractors
> cannot shoot dead any Pakistani citizen who might even remotely, in
> their opinion, pose a threat and if U.S. Consulate vehicles cannot
> drive at high speed in the wrong lane against traffic and run over and
> kill any one, man, women or child who gets in their way, how can they
> possible do their critical job of diplomacy?
>

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 18, 2011 8:33 PM | Report abuse

Just for esteemed members - US transits through Pakistan over $180 billion goods per year for the our boys in Afghanistan.

We need Pakistan for more reasons than above. Pakistan so far has not imposed a transit tax or cut the route except once when we killed 4 Pakistani solders in a helo strike.

I would advise sanity over arrogance and ignorance.

Posted by: sfhussain | February 19, 2011 1:37 AM | Report abuse

there is enough evidence that Davis is not a diplomat through investigations that have ensued after the incident. Pakistan's Govt actually has been looking for an excuse to free Davis in order to defuse the tension with Washington, but they could not find anything that can help them convince the court that Davis is a diplomat.So for anyone to say, not least the president of US, that Davis is a diplomat, either the person has to be totally naive or must be doing it to protect something that most of us have no idea how important that thing is.

things are unfolding at a fast pace and what the world is learning about Davis and what he was doing in Pakistan does not put the US in good light. He is CIA agent on a mission to identify targets in Pakistan for drone attacks.

US is losing credibility in the world real fast. they cant any more park themselves on high moral ground and lecture the world on the conduct of diplomacy. The US in recent history has been involved in incidents that even the worst dictators would be reluctant to undertake - for them the only thing that matters is lives of Americans, even at the cost of millions of deaths of the people from other countries. every day they are getting exposed. Gone are the days that they could prevail on other governments using their clout and their status as the super power. in this world of internet and open media, people are ready to fight for their rights, the same rights that their leaders kept surrendering to safeguard their rules. Obama's veto last week is an evidence of how disconnected from the realities this administration is.

Posted by: jamalsalim | February 20, 2011 4:59 PM | Report abuse

The Post has spent a week deceiving the public at the request of the US government. I don't think it has much credibility on this one.

Posted by: Nemo24601 | February 21, 2011 7:42 PM | Report abuse

Glenn--too bad your "news" reporting staff can't dig very much for facts or authoritative opinion. They might as well have printed a govt press release. In a lighter vein, why are you trying to practice diplomatic law? Unlike some other metitorious cases, you haven't convincingly confirmed or knocked down facts here, but rather warbled on one or another side of opinion. Makes the ole Factchecker look a tad silly, especially when u normally do a great job.

Posted by: axolotl | February 21, 2011 10:55 PM | Report abuse

.
So, Glen,
were you in on the joke that the WaPo played on its readers ?

If you ran a "fact check," and purposely lied about facts you knew, what good is your word, or your reporting ?
.

Posted by: BrianX9 | February 21, 2011 11:40 PM | Report abuse

It has now been brought to like the Davis is a mercenary, which means he is NOT entitled to diplomatic immunity.

Posted by: jjedif | February 22, 2011 8:24 AM | Report abuse


If this had happened on Bush's watch, Fact Checker would have given him 4 Pinocchio's.

Obama gets "Withholding Judgment."

So much for objectivity by Fact Checker.

While I am not a fan of Bush, I'm just noting the hypocrisy of Fact Checker.

Posted by: janet8 | February 22, 2011 9:37 AM | Report abuse

Obviously this guy broke the cardinal rule of not getting caught! Now he pays the price. What happened to the cyanide pill under the fake tooth? Former SF, Blackwater, etc...doesn't make him smart. The Pakistani's allegedly brandished weapons...really...in Pakistan??? Go figure! On an area survey with all his gear? Only the village idiot would believe that! He stopped at an ATM to withdraw cash? What is this, a Mastercard commercial? He overreacted and got caught! We obviously know he wasn't right because we're arguing the 'fine points' of diplomatic immunity! We have nothing else to offer because it's not 1900 anymore and Teddy Roosevelt's 'big stick' is broken! Besides, when you dance with the devil (our relations with Pakistan) the devil gets to call the tunes! Better to exchange this guy for some prisoner, as suggested, or we aren't going to see him for awhile. Also, we may want to seriously reevaluate our standing in other countries, ie...Egypt, Libya, Pakistan, etc...and quit acting surprised that Americans are not safe in areas where we prop up despotic and corrupt governments...we'll also be able to understand the Pakistani dilemma re: the Taliban as soon as we wake up to the problems along our own border with Mexico. Gunny Ermey should pay a counseling visit to the White House and remind them we're not living in 'namby-pamby' land anymore! Where's that box of tissue???

Posted by: pj0669 | February 22, 2011 10:02 AM | Report abuse

Odd time to be invoking international law, considering that America has been violating international law with impunity for at least the last decade in its so-called war on terrorism. And since when is a mercenary a diplomat? This is just one more murderous incident involving Blackwater mercenaries; wherever they go, civilians die, usually with bullets in their backs or Blackwater tire tracks all over their bodies.

Instead of protecting these violent criminals, we ought to turn them over to local authorities every time they commit murder. And instead of continuing to give Xe/Blackwater billions of tax dollars in unbid contracts, we should hire some other contractor that doesn't hire so many thugs.

Posted by: windrider2 | February 22, 2011 1:40 PM | Report abuse

First off, There are thousands employed by the U.S. government that have diplomatic immunities AND carry a loaded firearm as part of their official duties. FBI agents, DS agents, DEA agents, etc...

Second, These employees are a critical cog in the diplomacy machine. Safety and security to our other diplomats abroad IS part of the U.S.'s diplomatic goals--simply put, men and women that carry firearms as part of their official duties are DIPLOMATS.

Lastly, the immunity belongs to and is entirely enjoyed by the United States government solely. If the U.S. government believes
Davis acted criminally, then his immunity could be waived. Clearly, this is not the case.

Shame on you Fact Checker for being mealy mouth and wishy washy. The facts are clear--He is a diplomat that enjoys immunity; therefore, not subject to Pakistani criminal prosecution.

Posted by: nbcmarine | February 22, 2011 7:38 PM | Report abuse

http://www.sify.com/news/cia-spy-davis-was-giving-nuclear-bomb-material-to-al-qaeda-says-report-news-international-lcumEfbecfi.html

"CIA spy" Davis was giving nuclear bomb material to Al-Qaeda, says report


Double murder-accused US official Raymond Davis has been found in possession of top-secret CIA documents, which point to him or the feared American Task Force 373 (TF373) operating in the region, providing Al-Qaeda terrorists with "nuclear fissile material" and "biological agents," according to a report.

Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) is warning that the situation on the sub-continent has turned "grave" as it appears that open warfare is about to break out between Pakistan and the United States, The European Union Times reports.

The SVR warned in its report that the apprehension of 36-year-old Davis, who shot dead two Pakistani men in Lahore last month, had fuelled this crisis.

According to the report, the combat skills exhibited by Davis, along with documentation taken from him after his arrest, prove that he is a member of US' TF373 black operations unit currently operating in the Afghan War Theatre and Pakistan's tribal areas, the paper said.

While the US insists that Davis is one of their diplomats, and the two men he killed were robbers, Pakistan says that the duo were ISI agents sent to follow him after it was discovered that he had been making contact with al Qaeda, after his cell phone was tracked to the Waziristan tribal area bordering Afghanistan, the paper said.

The most ominous point in this SVR report is "Pakistan's ISI stating that top-secret CIA documents found in Davis's possession point to his, and/or TF373, providing to al Qaeda terrorists "nuclear fissile material" and "biological agents", which they claim are to be used against the United States itself in order to ignite an all-out war in order to re-establish the West's hegemony over a Global economy that is warned is just months away from collapse," the paper added. (ANI)

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 24, 2011 8:30 AM | Report abuse

Latest Comments
Showing 1-3 of total 3 messages

Posted by nanothermite on Feb 24,2011 18:50 PM


He was doing both: Step 1 : False-Flag like 911 using nanothermite and Anthrax, ie this BAPTIST nutcase or ZIONIST was giving nuclear or bioterror material to ALQAEDA. Step 2 : find coordinates of all military and nuclear installations to do a 10 min blitzkreig to destroy 200 year struggle of the people of indian subcontinent for independence from the Gora race. Step 0 : bug the houses and neighbors in all posh areas of scientists and bureaucrats and politicians houses in all cities of india and pakistan.

Posted by Bill Owen on Feb 23,2011 12:34 PM


"According to a report". What report, where? This is journalism??? Are you serious? According to a report Sify is a news organization. According to another report, one NOT written in Crayon, they are nuts.

Posted by peacelover on Feb 21,2011 22:44 PM


Finally, the devil has been cought red handed, this filth man is responsible for taking innocent lives throught pakistan, i thought usa is fighting against terriorism not indulging into it!!!! prehapes the picture is now clear as to who was behind the accrocities, bombing in lahore, islamabad, karachi .........Pakistani PEAPLE FOR GOD'S SAKE WAKE UP, AND DON'T LET THE DEVIL IN YOUR HOUSE! regards.

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 24, 2011 8:49 AM | Report abuse

Comic Relief and a realistic analysis

Saving Private Raymond , Bina Shah
She is the author of Slum Child, and has no expertise in politics or foreign policy whatsoever.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/24/saving-private-raymond.html

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 24, 2011 9:40 AM | Report abuse

There is a document shown on pakistan TV on youtube videos where a letter from US embassy was sent on 20 Jan to foreign office asking for a NON DIPLOMATIC ID CARD for RAYMOND DAVIS.

This proves that he is NOT a DIPLOMAT according to US SOURCES and POINT OF VIEW.

It is surmised that US embassy asked to avoid lengthy questions and investigations of a spook not knowing what was to happen in the future.

He will be hanged according to very kosher practices of the law ... it appears from facts and documents.

US should prepare itself for a face saving outcome by itself championing the law and civilized behavior - and equality of all races and nationalities.

This means automatically and willingly give the occupants of the SUV and equipment and SUV itself at the time of the crime.

This will earn a lot of respect for the US and Obama administration, defeat criminal schemers and elements in the US administrations and corporations, clean its own mess and generally good for the planet all round.

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 24, 2011 2:26 PM | Report abuse

What is raymond davis' true name ?

Is he related to Darrell Myatt ? Looks very similar features, brother ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFTFk1tydf4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp2kygqV6Ps

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 24, 2011 3:17 PM | Report abuse

CIA Spy Captured Giving Nuclear Bomb To Terrorists

Posted by EU Times on Feb 11th, 2011 // 162 Comments

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/02/cia-spy-captured-giving-nuclear-bomb-to-terrorists/

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 25, 2011 11:09 AM | Report abuse

Fearing that the conflict over Davis may lead to open warfare, the Pakistanis were quick to let the Americans know they would not come out any conflict unscathed with their firing yesterday of their new Hatf-VII nuclear cruise missile (also called Babur after the 16th-century Muslim ruler who founded the Mughal Empire) that Major General Athar Abbas said “…can carry strategic and conventional warheads, has stealth capabilities, is a low-flying, terrain-hugging missile with high manoeuvrability, pinpoint accuracy and radar avoidance features”.

The United States Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) further reported yesterday that Pakistan appears to be building a fourth military nuclear reactor, signaling its determination to produce more plutonium for atomic weapons.

Most ominous in this SVR report, though, is Pakistan’s ISI stating that top-secret CIA documents found in Davis’s possession point to his, and/or TF373, providing to al Qaeda terrorists “nuclear fissile material” and “biological agents” they claim are to be used against the United States itself in order to ignite an all-out war in order to reestablish the West’s hegemony over a Global economy that is warned is just months away from collapse.

Not known to the masses of the American people is that the $20 Trillion they have spent on their longest wars in history has bankrupted their Nation to such an extent that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) called yesterday for replacement of the US Dollar as the World’s reserve currency.

More crucially that the American people are ignoring is the fact that their own government has unleashed against them a 21st Century update to the dreaded US Military “Operation Northwoods” campaign of terror designed to enrage them to accepting war as their main way of life.

Posted by: larry_silverstein | February 25, 2011 11:21 AM | Report abuse

FYI

US national Aaron Mark Dehaven arrested from Peshawar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLi4wVZHmss

All Comments (2)

He is El Kay Dah. Give him ORANGE clothes with holes and put him in the zoo.

zionists are the most virulent enemies of IRI and must be treated as such.
ISOCYANATEinBHOPAL 21 minutes ago

what's this white boy up to in univesity town of all places?
brutallicaa 2 hours ago


Posted by: ElliotSlatkin | February 25, 2011 1:26 PM | Report abuse

Post a Comment

We encourage users to analyze, comment on and even challenge washingtonpost.com's articles, blogs, reviews and multimedia features.

User reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site. Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site. Please review the full rules governing commentaries and discussions.




characters remaining

 
 
RSS Feed
Subscribe to The Post

© 2011 The Washington Post Company