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Uh-oh

The following events just occured in the bottom of the third at Citizens Bank Park:

1. Brian Schneider walked.

2. With one out, Jason Bergmann bunted. It was not a good bunt. Schneider was out easily at second. Bergmann was (unfortunately, as it turned out) safe at first.

3. Felipe Lopez singled to left, and Bergmann advanced to second.

4. Ronnie Belliard singled to center.

5. Tim Tolman, the third base coach, waved Bergmann around third with two outs and Ryan Zimmerman coming up.

6. Bergmann was thrown out at home by Phillies center fielder Aaron Rowand.

7. Bergmann popped up, went back out to the mound, went 1-1 on Phillies shortstop Jimmy Rollins.

8. Schneider called time and went to talk to Bergmann, perhaps trying to let him catch his breath.

9. Bergmann threw a 79-mph breaking ball low and in to Rollins.

10. Rollins hit the ball out to right field for his 20th homer of the year.

11. After a groundout, Bergmann walked Chase Utley.

12. With Ryan Howard up, head athletic trainer Lee Kuntz, pitching coach Randy St. Claire and Manager Manny Acta all came to the mound.

13. Bergmann left the game with tightness in his left hamstring. Billy Traber now in.

Of those 13 items, which is the worst?

By Barry Svrluga  |  July 24, 2007; 8:00 PM ET
 
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Next: Bergmann's hammy, and the arrival of John Lannan?

Comments

As long as it doesn't require surgery, I'll take the hammy.

Besides, Schneider bailed everybody out (so far) with that sweet bases-clearing double.

Posted by: Juan-John | July 24, 2007 8:18 PM | Report abuse

Yeah - what was Tolman thinking?

With Zimm and Da Meat coming up, sending Bergie home didn't make any sense!

Good job Billy, getting out of the inning, and Schneider coming through with a bases clearing double to jump back up 3-2.

Tough way to start a stretch after a day off, (potentially) burning out the bullpen on game 1 (and with a history of extra inning ballgames against the Phillies).

C'mon Nats, stick with it.

Posted by: ShawNatsFan | July 24, 2007 8:25 PM | Report abuse

5 is the worst. 13 might have been a predictable sequel.

And Flip just got himself picked off, which might take the prize.

Posted by: Hendo | July 24, 2007 8:35 PM | Report abuse

Word just in:

Pedro Gomez from ESPN is now offering pitchers $50k for serving up home runs to Bonds now, just so he can do something else with his life than follow the ongoing saga of BB's pursuit of 755!

Can you imagine if BB doesn't get it this week in SF? He'd probably offer 100k+ on the road to get off this duty!

Yawn.

Posted by: ShawNatsFan | July 24, 2007 8:58 PM | Report abuse

Good job by Traber to hold down the lead.

That said, with Booker coming in with a man on second and a man out, Traber would be charged (by my metric posted awhile ago) with .7 run, while Booker gets charged with .3 run for the run allowed on the SF.

Point (irrespective of the WP): Relievers have responsibilities too.

Posted by: Hendo | July 24, 2007 9:11 PM | Report abuse

Let's see. Let us count the screw ups...

First, failure to get down the bunt.

Second, sending the recently-returned-to- the-rotation pitcher home with the heart (or meat) of the order coming up.

See ya' after Labor Day, Jason.

Posted by: Vandy | July 24, 2007 9:14 PM | Report abuse

Hendo,
Sorry - I missed your reliever ERA scoring system. I've posted about the bullpen allowing runners on base to come in - when was it?

C'mon Nats - you can do this!

Posted by: ShawNatsFan | July 24, 2007 9:22 PM | Report abuse

This is easy... Number 2 is the worst... if Bergmann executes the bunt, Schneider scores on the Lopez hit.

Just think how many games might have had a different outcome if there had been better fundamentals and baserunning.

I bet that's worth 5-10 games this season.

Posted by: Wigi | July 24, 2007 9:24 PM | Report abuse

ShawNatsFan (and others), check out my post toward the end of this thread:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2007/07/midgame_guess_the_rotation_res.html

Posted by: Hendo | July 24, 2007 9:31 PM | Report abuse

D. All of the above?

Also...

I've said it once, I'll say it again: I hope Aaron Rowand is wearing a Nationals jersey for the next 5 years. (sigh)

Good night, everyone...

Posted by: Matt | July 24, 2007 9:52 PM | Report abuse

Ok, ok, ok... I choose #5, Tim "traffic cop" Tolman. I haven't been a fan of his since the first week of the season.

Ok, we have baserunners... I won't go to bed quite yet.

Posted by: Matt | July 24, 2007 9:55 PM | Report abuse

Damn, again. Rob, way to flail on the first pitch. Not.

Posted by: Hendo | July 24, 2007 9:59 PM | Report abuse

5 is the worst. But 11 is not far behind (I hate walks too!) and then, as WIgi points out 2. Execution may be the difference for 5-10 games for Bergmann alone.

Posted by: lowcountrynatsfan | July 24, 2007 9:59 PM | Report abuse

#5

Posted by: natsfan1a | July 24, 2007 10:02 PM | Report abuse

Hendo, how is your stat any better than "inherited runners scored"? I am not a fan of one number as the ultimate measure (see: OPS), but several stats together give a pretty decent pitcher. I do think "inherited runners scored" needs to be listed, perhaps instead of W-L, which ends up being somewhat arbitrary - even dumb - for relievers, especially someone like Ray King who pitches for one batter. It's helpful to know the bullpen's record, but not the individual relievers.

Get 'em tomorrow Nats, you can't win every night and a 5-2 homestand was due a loss. Now go 2-3 against those Philly jerks and you can be swept by the Mets for all I care. God, I hate Philly.

Posted by: Section 506 (After moving) | July 24, 2007 10:08 PM | Report abuse

Number 14, not listed, is worse. Manny lifting King in favor of Ayala after Ray nailed down two outs. I'm no King fan and Ayala has been great all year, but there was no reason to put Ayala in. Maybe I'm just old school in this respect.

Posted by: Greg | July 24, 2007 10:18 PM | Report abuse

#10...but 13 isn't good either ;)

Posted by: Stebbins | July 24, 2007 10:20 PM | Report abuse

I'll take a 2/5 exacta box with the 11 to show. What the he double toothpicks was Tolman thinking anyway???

Posted by: SC Nats Fan | July 24, 2007 10:21 PM | Report abuse

Close baseball games are fun to watch even when the team you're rooting for loses. There are so many interesting things to look at and dissect. Here are a couple of comments:

1. I'd send Bergman home on Belliard's single 100% of the time. I don't criticize Tolman for that decision. With two outs the 3rd base coach needs to be aggressive. Bergamn looked like he injured himself running between 3rd and home. Tolman couldn't have known that was going to happen.

2. The dogs are barking again on the Nats' training staff. Surprise, surprise yet another pitcher goes down with a soft tissue injury. When is this going to stop, people? Pulled hammys are the classic "athletes not taking care of themselves" issue. Someone needs to investigate what is being done physically in the weight room with our starters between starts. I'm tired of seeing these injuries.

3. Two brutal small ball screw ups cost them again.

a. Bergman cannot lay down a quality bunt. By my count the Nats are 1 for their last 4 on bunt attempts. I've never seen a success stat on sacrifice bunting, and I don't even know if it's kept. My guess is that the major league average is 75% at least. 1 out of 4 does not cut it.
b. In the 7th, when Lopez walked with two outs, he has to be running on one first three pitches in a tie game. Madsen was delivering the ball in about 1.3 - 1.4 seconds which is below average. Belliard clearly took two fast balls down the middle and four pitches in all to give Lopez a chance to steal. Instead he was just standing there. He couldn't get a jump?!!! This is a guy who stole over 40 bases for the Reds. C'mon Felipe. I thought you could see the frustration with Felipe on Ronnie's face when he was forced the wave at a 2-2 slider and ground out weakly to the pitcher.

4. Did anyone else notice Manny's lack of confidence in Chris Booker? First of all, he suddenly got Saul Rivera up in the 6th after Booker had been warming up for an inning. Then he didn't bring him in to face Rowand with one out after Traber had gotten Howard. Those sorts of little subtle messages are not good to send to a relief pitcher. It blew up in Manny's face of course, but I don't criticize him too severely for not pulling Traber. It was the warming up of Rivera that showed Booker how he felt about him.

5. Per my earlier post about free agent CFs, I 'd like the Nats to go after: move Aaron Rowand to the top of the list after tonight. He's got good pop with his bat, can go get the ball defensively, and has a strong arm.


Posted by: #4 | July 24, 2007 10:24 PM | Report abuse

It's not how big your Svrluga is, it's how many visits it gets.
___
"I see your Svrluga is as big as mine!"

Posted by: | July 24, 2007 08:33 PM

Posted by: NatsNut | July 24, 2007 10:26 PM | Report abuse

Re: #4's #5... let's start a petition.

Posted by: Matt | July 24, 2007 10:28 PM | Report abuse

Greg -

I thought I was old school, but you are REALLY old school. Manny has to pull Ray King there. Could you imagine the outcry if Rowand had hit the bomb off of Ray King with a quality RH ready to go in the pen? Your suggested strategy hasn't been used since the advent of the batting helmet.

Posted by: #4 | July 24, 2007 10:30 PM | Report abuse

506 asks intelligently: "Hendo, how is your stat any better than 'inherited runners scored'?"

Because it gives credit, or blame, both to the pitcher who put the runner(s) on *and* to the pitcher who let 'em score.

The cool thing about "my" stat -- actually, it's Keith Woolner's -- is that a reliever who doesn't allow inherited runners to score is credited with *negative* runs.

So, for example, in my previously posted scenario -- reliever enters the game with one out, runners on first and second -- the expectation is that 0.89 runs will score (I got the correct numbers off Woolner's chart this time).

Let's put some names on it: say that Bacsik's the starter that exits in that situation, and Rivera comes in to mop up. If Rivera retires the rest of the side, he is credited with negative .89 run. If he allows one run to score, he is dinged with .11 run. And if both runners cross the plate, Rivera is charged with 1.11 runs. And in any case -- even if no runner scores -- Bascik is charged with .89 run.

This metric gives the proper credit and/or blame to both starter and reliever. As I said in my other post, agents will go crazy, particularly when relievers are charged with negative runs. But I maintain that this method of measurement is fairer than the metrics now in use.

Posted by: Hendo | July 24, 2007 10:39 PM | Report abuse

I'll revise my vote to combine #5 and #13, if I may. I voted for #5 because it may have resulted in the first part of #13, not because of any potential effect on the score. I'd rather lose a game than a player to injury any day.

Posted by: natsfan1a | July 24, 2007 10:43 PM | Report abuse

I should've made Chico the starter. His name is easier to spell than Bacsik's. Sorry, Mike.

Posted by: Hendo | July 24, 2007 10:44 PM | Report abuse

Hendo -

I like the stat. It's the first time I've seen it and it makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of two stats I wish teams would keep: Bases Advanced and Bases Given Away. They go something like this.

1. Bases Advanced: For each AB a batter has, you calculate the number of bases he advances runners including himself. If he singles with a runner on second who scores, he would get 3. If he flied out with runners on 2nd and 3rd and they both tagged up, he would get 2. If he walked with a runner on 1st, he'd get 2, etc. I think it would be a great way to calculate productive outs and clutch hitting. It's a little like Bill James' runs created stat but takes into account the positive result of productive outs.

2. Bases Given Away: This would be a team defensive stat. A team would be assessed one base anytime an opposing runner advances because of a defensive mistake, including walks. So if a pitcher walks a runner with the bases loaded, that would be 4 BGA. If a 2B booted a DP ball with runners on 1st and 2nd and the runner on 2nd scored, that would be 4 also. If an OF missed a cut off man allowing a batter to advance to 2nd that would be 1. It would be somewhat subjective but most defensive stats are.


Posted by: #4 | July 24, 2007 10:58 PM | Report abuse

#5 is the worst.

(you were expecting me to say #11, weren't you?)

Posted by: i hate walks | July 24, 2007 11:07 PM | Report abuse

#4: You're onto something good there.

As far as I know, Bill James hasn't picked those stats up yet, but I think they're the kind of thing he'd be into. Why not forward your suggestions on to him?

Posted by: Hendo | July 24, 2007 11:08 PM | Report abuse

sorry for the double-post but:

No, really ... I liked the aggressive baserunning but I think Tolman didn't have a holistic view of the situation:

1) Bergmann isn't superfast. Tall? yes. Lanky? yes. Fast? no.

2) the CF had the ball in-glove by the time Bergmann rounded 3rd.

3) the meat (heh) of the order coming up

4) 2 outs, bases loaded if he holds

Sure, as #4 points out the pulled hammy is a symptom of the pitcher not having a full body readiness which is a pandemic among pitchers if I may be so blunt.

Sure, Bergmann doesn't get the bunt down. Basics, basics, basics. Absorb a little more of that pitch and you have a sac bunt instead of trying to beat out the 1-6-3 (which is where I wager he pulled his hammy, not on the run from 3rd to home).

But if Tolmann holds, at least we give our best bats a chance to hit w/ RISP instead of starting the next inning.

Not sure what to think of the way Manny played the pitching staff tonight although I didn't like to see so many arms used so early in the trip.

Posted by: i hate walks | July 24, 2007 11:25 PM | Report abuse

Hendo, I did some checking and I like your stat too!

I'm not sure how I feel about a pitcher leaving a runner on and getting penalized on that alone. Is there a sliding scale for which base he gets stranded on?

#4 - your bases for/bases against idea is an interesting concept. Dunno how useful a "bases for" stat might be for individuals (think of it as a team slugging percentage almost) but for a team as a whole, it could have promise.

Where I think it does make a lot of sense is as a team defensive stat -- sure beats the Error or Fielding Pct stats, which are less meaningful giving up a single with 2 outs than allowing a single/gapper with no outs....

Get 'em tomorrow Nats. I hate the Phillies, but I hate Phillies fans more. And, I gotta say, I've been a Rowand fan for years - he plays hard all the time. That goofy batting stance of his drives me nuts, but he'd be easy for me to cheer for on the Nats!

Posted by: ShawNatsFan | July 24, 2007 11:25 PM | Report abuse

Touche, Hendo, BUT... how are these "expected runs" figured out?

Posted by: Section 506 (After moving) | July 24, 2007 11:26 PM | Report abuse

Oh, and I neglected to mention I like the way relievers get the "benefit" for getting out of a situation when they come in with runners on. As I've posted before, I think this scenario doesn't get enough credit now, and a stat that recognizes these situations would be relevant.

It would be even better if it somehow rewarded getting out of a jam with an inherited runner on third with less than 2 outs, or inducing an inning-ending double play with the score tied, but now i'm getting ahead of myself!

As it is, we as fans tend to remember key reliever breakdowns (e.g. Benitez, Armando and Williams, Mitch) over repeated successes. I'm tough on the Nats bullpen, but I'm ecstatic at their performance this season (and the last two for that matter, in the Frank -- respectfully -- meat-grinder system)

Oops, just realized I may have pulled a Palmer on that Frank reference...

Posted by: ShawNatsFan | July 24, 2007 11:34 PM | Report abuse

Now leaning toward putting $2. on #5. Lets face it...he was out by 20 feet. Good judgment by 3b coach...I think NOT.

Posted by: SC Nats Fan | July 24, 2007 11:36 PM | Report abuse

Make Tolman walk home from Philly.

The Phillies outfield has been throwing out players left and right all season long, and he sends a pitcher?

Posted by: Kim | July 25, 2007 12:15 AM | Report abuse

Expected runs are taken by averaging, each season, the number of runs in a given situation. There's a plenty big sample size, so let's add up (using a database) how many times there were runners on 1st & 2nd with no out. Then figure out how many runs were scored in those innings over the course of a season. So, on average, 1st & 2nd no out results in .89 runs. That's what the previous pitcher gave up.

It also helps you value the pieces of your bullpen. The guy who can throw strikeouts when desperately needed gets a deservedly low ERA (or ARA for adjusted runs against). It also helps you identify your get-out-of-a-jam guy.

The real need for something like this is if a reliever comes into the game with the bases loaded and 2 out. He gives up a bases-clearing double and a warning-track flyball. 3 runs score, but in the box score, he gets 1/3 IP, 0 ER. That ain't right, but that's Mike DeJean.

In another weird thing, a few years ago, the Yankees were playing the Sox (game 5 of the '04 alcs, I think) and the Sox were down 1 in the bottom of the 8th with the bases loaded. The previous pitcher loaded the bases. Rivera comes in and gets a fly ball and 2 other outs, and gets charged with a blown save because the tying run scored (from 3rd) while he was in the game. That's nuts.

Just sayin'. A lot of the traditional stats were conjured up by sportswriters who were way way way less brilliant (and obviously more dependent on vowels) than Our Man Barry.

Posted by: section 406 | July 25, 2007 12:31 AM | Report abuse

Aw c'mon guys, this isn't even close if you've ever played sports past little league or middle school.

No. 13 is easily the worst because a player got injured.

Yes, IF he'd executed the bunt he wouldn't be on base.

IF he wasn't sent home he probably wouldn't have gotten hurt.

But those are all things that happen when playing a competitive sport.

Getting hurt is always the worst. Period.

Posted by: Ryan | July 25, 2007 7:44 AM | Report abuse

#5 is the worst. Bergmann already had made a hamstring threatening dash to first and Ryan Grand Slam Zimmerman was on deck. We'll get em tonight.

Posted by: Natstivity1959 | July 25, 2007 7:57 AM | Report abuse

In the $.35 edition this morning, Barry made it sound like Bergman injured himself hitting 3rd base on the way home. Despite Tolman taking responsibility for what he described as a bad decision (good to see him step up there), I still think he should be more aggressive than not in that situation. The chances of scoring a run if he holds him are about 35-40%. Sending him is a 50/50 proposition.

Posted by: #4 | July 25, 2007 8:19 AM | Report abuse

Wigi's got it right. Bergmann's pitiful excuse for a bunt is clearly and easily the worst. Executing the sacrifice is something a National League pitcher simply must be able to do. In this case, failure to do so cost a run (and maybe that rarest of things for the Nationals lately, a big inning), injured a starter and made the third base coach look bad. Baseball's like that, there tends to be culmulative damage from one mistake.
Speaking of injuries, I don't remember guys hurting themselves running the bases or swinging the bat 50 years ago. Now, it seems to happen all the time. Maybe because we didn't have ESPN, blogs and talk radio then we just didn't hear about it. Maybe before free agency they just played through those things because they were afraid of losing their jobs.

Posted by: Salty Dog | July 25, 2007 8:21 AM | Report abuse

So the new game - 'Find the Rotation' should be even more fun. I'm now going with Patterson, Hill, Bergmann, Simontacchi, Bowie. However as Plan Z, I will go with Lannam, Balester, Detwiller, Fruto, and Claussen. Somewhat less believable is Chico, Redding, Bascik, Traber, and Hanrahan (oh wait that is our rotation -- what do I win?). My favorite rotation for September would be Hill, Lannam, Bergmann, Chico, and Patterson. However, I fear Patterson has pitched his last game for the year already.

Posted by: NatBisquit | July 25, 2007 8:40 AM | Report abuse

This is the interesting part of the sequence. Call it 6a: according to Charlie and Dave, Bergman appeared to be safe. Yes, the ball beat him there, but Bergman slid under the high tag.

I'm going with what Charlie and Dave said on the the broadcast; I wasn't watching the game last night.

(They also said Lopez appeared to slide around the tag when he was called out on the pickoff play at first.)

-----

Lets face it...he was out by 20 feet.

Posted by: John in Mpls | July 25, 2007 9:35 AM | Report abuse

Not to steal Barry's thunder, but I think #4's #2 is crucial here.

Posted by: John in Mpls | July 25, 2007 9:42 AM | Report abuse

"Make Tolman walk home from Philly," Kim says.

Tolman probably WOULD wave someone home from Philly. Bergmann might as well have been running 744,480 feet.

Posted by: Section 506 (After moving) | July 25, 2007 9:48 AM | Report abuse

I don't blame Tolman at all for sending Bergmann home. He was probably under the mistaken impression that Jason merely had a refrigerator on his back, and not the entire appliance section from Circuit City. I don't expect pitchers to be athletes, but how much coordination does it take to run?

Posted by: joebleux | July 25, 2007 10:12 AM | Report abuse

sorry, but Tolman should NEVER have sent Bergmann. Sure there are two outs and you always want to be aggressive, but he should have known:

1) Rowand was playing shallow
2) Belliard hit the ball very hard up the middle
3) Rowand was charging and came up with the ball very quickly
4) Bergmann is NOT a fast runner
5) Rowand leads the NL in assists with 10
6) Zimmerman is coming up and (as BS noted) is hitting .345 since July 4
7) this year with the bases loaded Zim is batting .500, slugging 1.500 with an OPS of 1.929

Also, did you notice that in the bottom of the 2nd, Rowand was on third with one out. Dobbs hit a fly ball to center. Their third base coach didn't send Rowand, even though the ball wasn't that shallow. Their next batter ripped a double to left-center to score Rowand. Seemed to work for them ...

Let's just hope that Bergmann is healthy and doesn't miss a start. Otherwise the Nats may have to call up Hanrahan, Lannan and Detwiler!

Posted by: e | July 25, 2007 10:15 AM | Report abuse

ShawNatsFan likes the expected-runs system of evaluating relief pitchers, but would enhance: "It would be even better if it somehow rewarded getting out of a jam with an inherited runner on third with less than 2 outs, or inducing an inning-ending double play with the score tied."

Ah, but it does. In the first situation, if successful, the reliever will be credited (and the starter charged) with .90 run with one out, and 1.27 runs with none out.

In the second situation, expected-runs doesn't take the score into account, but it doesn't have to. If the reliever is successful in inducing the inning-ending DP with the score tied, not only does he get credit for about a third of a run, but he positions himself for a win if his team can rally in the next half-inning.

At all events, expected-runs will shut up smart-alecks like Pinstriped HOF pitcher Whitey Ford, who in the early 1960s famously (okay, perhaps apocryphally) smirked: "I'll have a great season as long as [Yankees relief ace] Luis Arroyo's arm holds out."

Nuh-uh. You got yourself into it; get yourself out of it.

Posted by: Hendo | July 25, 2007 10:25 AM | Report abuse

Double-header: What do you think of the advisability of having two starters that would be lucky to get four full innings start double-headers. Are we trying to show off the bullpen to make better trades? Because they're all going to get a great deal of time on Saturday.

Posted by: Section 506 (After moving) | July 25, 2007 10:41 AM | Report abuse

Thanks Hendo for the clarification. I like it!

Hey John in Mpls or anyone who didn't see Bergmann's out at the plate, check it out at nationals.com but look for the highlight clip titled "Rowand's outfield assist." You'll see the throw beat him by 20 feet, BUT due to a lazy tag by the catcher, Bergmann did actually slide under the tag (no way you're going to get that call ever).

On Felipe's pick-off at first, I thought he beat the tag too. Because he was leaning so far when the throw was made, the Phils got the call - rally killed.

Oh, and I have to agree with #4's post about Belliard's frustration when Lopez didn't steal second. His look that said "what do i have to do, yell at you to GO?!" was pretty clear to me! - rally killed.

Posted by: ShawNatsFan | July 25, 2007 10:42 AM | Report abuse

e: I did notice that Bergmann is not fast (in fact, he's so slow that on the bunt, he seemed to need to take a breather about halfway down the first base line, and just about got doubled up).

However, anyone else on the team would scored on that. Schneider would have scored. Flores would have scored. For the love of god, Livan Hernandez probably could have scored, carrying Jason all the way on his back.

You have to score from second with two out on a base hit to the outfield. It's just lousy baserunning not to.

As far as not sending Rowand, that was a mistake they got away with. Doesn't mean it was a good decision.

Posted by: joebleux | July 25, 2007 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Did anyone notice that even the Phillies lead off hitter (the get on base guy)has 5 more home runs this year than Zimmerman?

Posted by: BH | July 25, 2007 10:51 AM | Report abuse

joebleux: I do believe in being aggressive on the basepaths, but the third base coach has to know when to be aggressive and when not to be. When your #3 and #4 batters are up next, and your #3 batter has been hitting the snot out of the ball over the past couple of weeks, then I think you need to weigh the odds: send a slow runner when the CFer has the ball BEFORE your runner has even hit the third base bag OR hold the runner and have your hottest hitters try and get them in. In the third inning, I go for being a little cautious and hope Zim and Young knock in a bunch of runs. Most other CFers and I probably would have sent Bergmann too. But Rowand is an exceptionally good defensive CFer and I wouldn't have tested him at that point. Now, if Nook or Langerhans were fielding that ball ...

Posted by: e | July 25, 2007 11:11 AM | Report abuse

Hey guys: more news on the hammy, sending Bergmann home, and who starts for Bergmann in Barry's new post.

Posted by: NatsNut | July 25, 2007 11:19 AM | Report abuse

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