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Zimmerman vs. Markakis, Straight Up

Tonight at Nationals Park, the Washington Nationals and Baltimore Orioles renew their rivalry. Feel that buzz starting to build around the region?

Me neither. It's hard to get too juiced about two last-place teams that are a combined 25 games below .500, and that have had neither the time nor the inclination to build up any sort of hatred for each other.

But let's try to stir up some debate anyway. I've posted over at Baseball Insider, in hopes of getting some perspective from O's and Nats fans. Here's an excerpt:

Over the course of a few months in the early part of 2009, both the Orioles and Nationals locked up their top young players in long-term deals: six years $66.1 million for Orioles right fielder Nick Markakis, and five years $45 million for Nationals third baseman Ryan Zimmerman. Despite the bottom-line difference in dollars, the contracts were structured very similarly, in that Markakis makes $47 million during the same five service-class seasons covered in Zimmerman's deal -- the difference being that sixth year in Markakis's deal (in essence, his third free-agent season) at $15 million, plus a $17.5 million option with a $2 million buyout.

By Dave Sheinin  |  May 22, 2009; 10:27 AM ET
 
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Comments

Who cares about Nick Markakis? And what self-respecting die-hard Nats fan is going to have seen the Orioles enough to even be able to make a fair comparison. Yeesh.

Posted by: raymitten | May 22, 2009 10:40 AM | Report abuse

I think it's got to be Zimmerman, because finding the combination of his defensive and offensive skillset at his position is much harder to do at 3B than in RF.

Carrying forward to respond to a post from the previous entry, I think Ray Knight is washed up as an analyst, never mind as a coach. He doesn't make very coherent or cogent points on Nats Xtra, and I'm not sure that he'll necessarily command a lot of respect in the clubhouse just because of who he is or how he'd try to come in and manage.

Posted by: faNATic | May 22, 2009 10:46 AM | Report abuse

What he said.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 10:47 AM | Report abuse

D'oh! Post intervention. I meant what the first poster said. Go, Zimm! :-D

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 10:48 AM | Report abuse

I'd take zimmerman. Given the difference in age (still 3 years from his developmental peak), the great season so far (and the admittedly-a-bit-too-soon conclusion that last year was an injury-related anomaly) positional scarcity of superb 3Bs, not to mention the relative bargain we got on his early prime seasons, it's a better deal on just about every front.

Posted by: Section406 | May 22, 2009 10:48 AM | Report abuse

Dave, where are Markakis's thoughts on the Zimmerman contract? Where are Daniel Cabrera's words on what it's like to have Ryan Zimmerman as a teammate? Markakis cavorts around the clubhouse in the nude (talk about TMI), what does Zimmerman do to let his hair down? And finally, where the h*ll was any coverage from you on Ryan Zimmerman's 30-game hitting streak? All you could come up with on the off day after it ended was a recycled attendance p*ssing story that could have run any day since the home opener?

Steinberg confessed on his Bog the other day why it is that he hates the Nationals. (Basically, because they're not DC United.) Are you ever going to confess to us why it is that you hate the Nationals? (I'm guessing it's because they're not the Yankees, the Red Sox or even the Orioles.)

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 10:49 AM | Report abuse

I would be more interested in data showing RZim vs. other NL 3B's.
There is no rivalry and there shouldn't be Inter-league play has run its course for me..... oohhh the red sox are coming the red sox are coming!! SO WHAT! Maybe the Nats get three sellout games this year if you really want to see the redsox go to fenway.

Posted by: mintbucket | May 22, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

eeewww, I hadn't heard that. Who does he think he is, Robert Fick??!!

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Or to Fenway South, AKA... Oh, you know where I mean. wink wink...nudge nudge

---

if you really want to see the redsox go to fenway.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 10:55 AM | Report abuse

To nunof1: Here is a blog post I did on Zimmerman's streak, which also ran in the print edition: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2009/05/zimmermans_streak_inside_the_n.html

Sorry that you missed it the first time around.

Posted by: Dave Sheinin | May 22, 2009 10:55 AM | Report abuse

Atta Boy, Dave.

Posted by: Bethesdangit | May 22, 2009 10:59 AM | Report abuse

"New post time already? Guess everyone's excited about the Spellman Cup.

Posted by: Scooter_ | May 22, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

You mean the MASN cup?

Posted by: natsfan1a1"

That would be the Gladys Noon Spellman Cup, being that the BW Parkway is dedicated to her. She was a Member of Congress from PG County who sadly spent several years in a coma before eventually dying 15-20 years ago. The concept of existing in a chronic vegetative state is unfortunately quite apt for the two franchises participating in this rivalry.

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 11:02 AM | Report abuse

Oooooh, SNAP!

I think earlier this year Keith Law was expressing dismay at the Zimmerman contract, saying (and I'm paraphrasing) that the Nats were giving him Markakis money and he's half the player Markakis is. Obviously Zim's having a season that would make a rational and impartial observer reconsider that analysis....

Posted by: Section220 | May 22, 2009 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Actually Dave, I did see that Zimmerman post the first time around. Rather weak in comparison to the amount of ink/bandwidth you and the Post spilled on the Markakis piece. You do work for a Washington newspaper, don't you? Hard to tell most of the time.

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 11:07 AM | Report abuse

it would be nice if those marketing geniuses in both cities would drop the "battle of the beltways" crap and just call the interleague interlude the "parkway series." the washington-baltimore parkway links both cities while their respective beltways encircle both. dodgers/angels is the "freeway series," the yankees/mets is the "subway series," the giants/a's is the "bay bridge series," cubs and white sox is the "north and south series."

Posted by: surly_w | May 22, 2009 11:10 AM | Report abuse

nunof

the post is the manny acta of area newspapers in that it feels it has to appease its few readers in howard, carroll and anne arundel counties with more than occasional b'more-related sports contant as shiney did with his peter boulware story today.

Posted by: surly_w | May 22, 2009 11:17 AM | Report abuse

I'll take Nick. Please disregard Zimm's numbers this season as I believe he's not a perennial .300 hitter as Markakis is. Not a knock on Zimmerman as he is one of the top 3-4 3B in the league. And in terms of potential to be competitive in the next 2-3 years I'll take the O's anyday over the Nats. I follow both teams BTW and I believe the Nats have very little organizational depth.

Posted by: bendersx6 | May 22, 2009 11:17 AM | Report abuse

surly, I would put money on the Manny Acta of managing outlasting the Manny Acta of newspapers in this town by the time it's all said and done.

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 11:21 AM | Report abuse

besides if shiney did work for a b-less rag, wouldn't he have been fired while actually covering a game?

Posted by: surly_w | May 22, 2009 11:25 AM | Report abuse

"Shine Boy" you never miss an opportunity do ya! At least we all know how much EG Ruiz, Steinbag, Wise, Kornpone, Wilbon, Jenkins, any writer associated with the Redskins detest the Nats and baseball in general but your only reason for being is to cover baseball and the "local team"!

The only yawn I hear around town is all the folks who keep on walking by those $.50 WAPO Newspaper boxes and grab the "FREE" Express or Examiner. Keep it up clown and maybe you can go work for the Boston Globe someday!

Posted by: TippyCanoe | May 22, 2009 11:27 AM | Report abuse

Who cares about comparing them. Just sit back, watch, and enjoy.

Posted by: dclifer97 | May 22, 2009 11:30 AM | Report abuse

Actually, tne newspaper box requires $0.75 to get the door to open...

Posted by: Intrudr | May 22, 2009 11:34 AM | Report abuse

in a close race, I think that I'd take Markakis, due to the durability, consistnecy (kid has never hit lower than .290) and speed. The defense at third compared to defense in RF is hard to compare, using whatever stat voodoo anyone wants, it is just apples and oranges -- and it is not like Zim has been stellar -- lots of errors, mostly on routine throws -- nor has Markakis stunk it up -- led all MLB OF's in assists last year.

Posted by: dfh21 | May 22, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Who cares about Nick Markakis? And what self-respecting die-hard Nats fan is going to have seen the Orioles enough to even be able to make a fair comparison. Yeesh.

Posted by: raymitten | May 22, 2009 10:40 AM

----

Well said, sir.

Posted by: ihatewalks | May 22, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for the background info, nunof.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 11:44 AM | Report abuse

I guess i shouldn't be surprised that this troupe can worm the whipping-boy of the moment into *any* conversation (the post is the manny acta of newspapers?), but I guess it is time for me to chime in with this:

I'm pro-Acta. I've had some questions about some of his moves but in general I consider that to be a good thing. I see that he manages to keep calm and maintain order in situations that would make me hysterical (and ineffective). I also really appreciate that his managerial approach lands somewhere between Frank Robinson's damn-the-numbers management by gut and a strictly moneyball numbers-only style. That is essentially a vote of confidence in the men on his team.

And since he's got the job and I don't, I'll sit in the stands on occasion and sip a cold beer while he does his thing.

Go Nats!

Posted by: ihatewalks | May 22, 2009 11:48 AM | Report abuse

This has nothing to do with last night. Just wondering if anyone here thinks Ray Knight would be a good choice as manager or do you think his days have passed?

Posted by: dovelevine | May 22, 2009 11:50 AM | Report abuse

Peter Gammons is reporting that the Nats and Red Sox have discussed trading Johnson for Del
Carmen. Supposedly the Sox are going to wait a little longer to see if Big Papi can get himself straightened out.

Posted by: p-man | May 22, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

Peter Gammons:

With a bullpen that is 2-16 with an ERA approaching 7.00, Rizzo is trying to find relievers to take the pressure off his young starting rotation of Jordan Zimmermann, Craig Stammen, John Lannan, Shairon Martis and Ross Detwiler. There is a lesson to be learned from the remarkable bullpen performances of the Blue Jays and Brewers, whose 3.40 and 3.49 relief ERAs were in the top seven in the majors going into the weekend; they've got closers who throw strikes (Scott Downs, Trevor Hoffman), a gaggle of independent league and waiver claim pickups and good management.

The Nats have few chips to move. Nick Johnson and Austin Kearns should get action, although there has been little thus far. Boston wants to wait on David Ortiz and tabled a proposal of Johnson for Manny Delcarmen. But as Washington prepares for two of the first 10 picks in the June 9 draft -- Stephen Strasburg and likely another high profile college arm -- other teams around the majors know that they are out in the market, trying to improve a team that in one stretch scored five or more runs in 10 consecutive games and lost nine of them. The only team in the last 50 years to have a losing record when scoring five or more runs was the 1962 Mets, and the Nats went into the weekend 8-16 in those games.

Posted by: dclifer97 | May 22, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

I imagine that having a moniker like 'ihatewalks' this year is somewhat more difficult to reconcile with the ilovenats philosophy. You are to be admired for your loyalty. Hope you enjoyed the Stammen performance last night.

Posted by: natbiscuits | May 22, 2009 11:53 AM | Report abuse

How bout dave vs Manny--the battle of the two endangered skippers? Which one falls on his sword first? And does either one make it thru the year?

Posted by: dovelevine | May 22, 2009 11:56 AM | Report abuse

Delcarmen is a nice reliever. However hope it's not straight up. Johnson is worth more than 1 reliever. Don't let the Saux take ya Rizz.

Posted by: dovelevine | May 22, 2009 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Speaking of 'pen pickups, did anybody see the Loverro piece the other day where he floated the idea of Keith Foulke (now pitching in the Atlantic League)?

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 12:00 PM | Report abuse

foulke likely is waiting for a call from major league team.

Posted by: surly_w | May 22, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

No Ray Knight please

Posted by: Brian_ | May 22, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse


Amen, raymitten. I've always ignored the Orioles despite their persistent efforts to claim themselves as DC's team.

cokedispatch also had an apropo comment earlier this morning about it being a nice day for bird-hunting . . .
_______________________________
Who cares about Nick Markakis? And what self-respecting die-hard Nats fan is going to have seen the Orioles enough to even be able to make a fair comparison. Yeesh.

Posted by: raymitten | May 22, 2009 10:40 AM

Posted by: lowcountry | May 22, 2009 12:17 PM | Report abuse

Wow, just a mention of the Oreos, and Nats Journal instantly turns into Charm City. And it'll probably smell like crabs and Old Bay for days after.

Posted by: joebleux | May 22, 2009 12:17 PM | Report abuse

glad my only trips to Baltimore are aquarium related these days

Posted by: bford1kb | May 22, 2009 12:19 PM | Report abuse

I'm with Mintbucket: The only comparison I care about is Zim and David Wright. Our guy is by far the better fielder, and if puts up Wright's numbers, he'll deserve a statue at Nationals Park. I've hated the O's from back when they used to beat the Senators all the time. Griffith should never have allowed the Browns to move there.

Posted by: nats24 | May 22, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

The borioles can tank for all I care. It's the Nats morning, noon and night, no matter if its a good day or a bad day, or week even. GO NATS...STAY HOT. And of course, Zimmerman by miles and miles.

Posted by: cokedispatch | May 22, 2009 1:00 PM | Report abuse

Nick Markakis is better offensively and defensively than Ryan Zimmermann.

No contest.

Posted by: Dagger1 | May 22, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

Just wondering... why are so many bloggers on the Post blogs (NJ and RI, in particular) under the impression that it's acceptable to slam the Post writers in this space? I mean, it's not as if you're a paying customer. Most of you -- ok, most of us -- stopped actually paying for the Post in lieu of the online edition a long time ago. So how is it the nunof1's and CoverageisLacking's of the world think they're getting shortchanged? Or worse, that they actually have something useful to add? In truth, your opinions are generally uninformed, overwrought, poorly written, and wrong on fact... not to mention vitriolic and obtuse. There are too many of you and not enough natsfan1a1's and usmc53's.

Dave, Tracee, Chico: keep up the good work. And thanks.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 1:05 PM | Report abuse

In a somewhat similar vein...thanks Dave, I thought this was an interesting post.

Posted by: Section220 | May 22, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

The Spellman Cup? Name the series after someone who no one has heard of and who had nothing to do with baseball? No.

It's the MASN Cup. The Nats own three to the Os one, and our young starters are going to bring us our fourth this year.

Posted by: PowerBoater69 | May 22, 2009 1:13 PM | Report abuse

When did we loose the MASN cup? I thought we one every year and tied 3-3 last year.

Posted by: brothbart | May 22, 2009 1:19 PM | Report abuse

Outsider,

Solid post.

Posted by: Section505203 | May 22, 2009 1:28 PM | Report abuse

In case of a tie in the head to head series the Cup goes to the team with the best overall season record, which has been the case every year except 2007.

Posted by: PowerBoater69 | May 22, 2009 1:37 PM | Report abuse

I think a rivalry could build over time, and this Zimm vs. Markakis debate might be a good platform for growing it since they are youngsters. Nice job, Dave. My vote of course goes to Zimm by the way.

Posted by: PattyinSJ | May 22, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

"Just wondering... why are so many bloggers on the Post blogs (NJ and RI, in particular) under the impression that it's acceptable to slam the Post writers in this space? I mean, it's not as if you're a paying customer."

Ahem. I AM a paying customer. Washington Post home delivery customer at various addresses for the past 37 years. I have every right to voice criticism of the Post and its writers in any forum they put out there. Et tu, Brute?

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

One more question, outsider6. How much are YOU paying each day, month or year to the Washington Post for the privilege of reading the output of its writers? I'm guessing zero. Am I right?

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 1:51 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the vote of confidence, outsider. I take your point but I must also say that, in my opinion, both CIL and nunof do add something to the forum as far as the content and quality of their posts overall.

Also, re. the MASN cup, I'd have to look up the stats but I believe that overall the Nats lead the O's in head-to-head wins since 2005.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Paying for the paper isn't the issue. It's an internet blog, anyone who wants to can chime in.

I'll take on the critics on the merits of the argument as best I can. Sheinin's beat was national baseball, not the local beat. I like having more baseball more of the time, so Shiner can write about whatever he thinks interesting as long as he wants. It's not his job to show loyalty to the Nats. I am worried, that after eliminating the Sunday baseball page are they going to keep giving him enough work to keep him employed - I sure hope so. Thanks Dave for this post and all your work. I look forward to it.

And the vitriol of some of the posters tells me that yes, there is a rivalry with the O's. I don't get worked up about it because both teams have been so bad there's no buzz. I look forward to the day when these games matter.
Geezer

Posted by: utec | May 22, 2009 1:59 PM | Report abuse

nunof1: SOLID POST! Right on Dude!

Post writers have been notorious for ripping into sports personalities, having agendas. I recall the David Israel vs. George Allen feud. And then there is the even more famous LaCanfora vs. Wee Willie Winkie errrr ... Vinnie Cerrato ...

In the past there was no medium for critiquing the 3rd estate without them slamming you down big time because ... well
they controlled the media. Now comes the Internet, things like MoveOn.org political portals and similar money magnets. Now, the audience CAN AND will critique, disagree with and irritate the so-called 3rd estate.

As my Italiano friends might say: e' giusto, no?

The Internet, the Memex, "the grid" as it were, is everyone's archetype. Even the throat singers in Tuva can now consider staking a claim to the Internet.

If the fuddy duddies don't like it ... you know what Harry Truman used to say, "if you think its too hot in the kitchen then get out!"


Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:01 PM | Report abuse

2006 3-3
2007 4-2 Nats
2008 3-3

Posted by: PowerBoater69 | May 22, 2009 2:01 PM | Report abuse

I hate Dan Steinberg and his hatred for the Nationals.

I hate the Dundalk Orange Birds.

I LOVE The Washington Nationals, sink or swim baby, im on the boat until the day I die, or the team is relocated. At the rate we are going, I feel the latter will be first.

Let's go Nats, let's get a sweep this weekend!

Posted by: NatsandSkinsareclassclassclass | May 22, 2009 2:04 PM | Report abuse

There are too many of you and not enough natsfan1a1's and usmc53's.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009

__________________________________________

And one too many outsider6. 1936, Hitler book burning, control of the media, fascism.

NJ: Sometime home of one crew or another of lamers and wannabees who aspire to be some sort of goody two shoes baseball gurus but lack even the dim flicker of sentience needed to qualify.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:09 PM | Report abuse

""Just wondering... why are so many bloggers on the Post blogs (NJ and RI, in particular) under the impression that it's acceptable to slam the Post writers in this space? I mean, it's not as if you're a paying customer."

Ahem. I AM a paying customer. Washington Post home delivery customer at various addresses for the past 37 years. I have every right to voice criticism of the Post and its writers in any forum they put out there. Et tu, Brute?"

-----------------------------
Whether you pay for the Post or not is irrelevant. The fact is, WaPo journalists do their job and deserve many kudos for their hard work. They certainly don't deserve to have their every word over-analyzed by a bunch of people who should actually be doing their jobs and not linger-posting on the NJ blog. So good work WaPo. We appreciate you though we don't always show it. I'm sure it's the same vice versa.

[Despite having just written that, I still reserve the right to be miffed sometimes when I think of a question that I feel someone should have asked Kasten, Rizzo, and/or Acta]

Posted by: dclifer97 | May 22, 2009 2:10 PM | Report abuse

OK, I call GODWIN. periculum loses.

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009 2:10 PM | Report abuse

I hate Dan Steinberg and his hatred for the Nationals.

I hate the Dundalk Orange Birds.

I LOVE The Washington Nationals, sink or swim baby, im on the boat until the day I die, or the team is relocated. At the rate we are going, I feel the latter will be first.

Let's go Nats, let's get a sweep this weekend!

Posted by: NatsandSkinsareclassclassclass | May 22, 2009

What he said!

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:11 PM | Report abuse

OK, I call GODWIN. periculum loses.

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009

AND I RAISE YOU Vannevar Bush, the inventor of the Internet since he elaborated its "look and feel" in the July 1945 issue of the Atlantic magazine.

I win.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:14 PM | Report abuse

We just discovered nunof's MPD trigger. Defend the WaPo and he alters into periculum.

Posted by: dclifer97 | May 22, 2009 2:14 PM | Report abuse

It's not the criticism of the Post (here or any other section) that bugs people, I believe, but I'll speak for myself. It's the unjustified hatespeak. Where do people get the idea it's OK to talk to--nevermind *about*--another human being like that? Srsly. This ain't church, but still. It's hard to take people seriously when they talk like such punks.

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

"They certainly don't deserve to have their every word over-analyzed by a bunch of people who should actually be doing their jobs and not linger-posting on the NJ blog. So good work WaPo. We appreciate you though we don't always show it. I'm sure it's the same vice versa."

__________________________________________

What a bunch of HORSE HOCKEY!? How much do reporters like Boswell, with his rather "strong opinions" know about baseball. I wonder if he ever played? What are his qualifications?

How about all the reporters/editors who elaborate and pontificate about foreign affairs, and the economy that have nary a clue.

BULL FEATHERS DUDE!

If you can't take it then don't dish it out period.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

Thanks for the post Sheinin. Not all of us readers have an irrational response to any post with the "dreaded" O word. You know what? Some people are fans of both teams. Believe it or not. As one of those, who has watched or listened to pretty much every single one of Markakis' and Zimmerman's major league games, right now, I think Markakis has the edge, but only slightly. For those who say Zimmerman is clearly better defensively, I wonder, how many Markakis games have you watched? You can't really compare an outfielder with an infielder, but Nick is pretty darn good with the glove too.

Posted by: ac42 | May 22, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

and you can't trump the Godwin Rule. You invoked Nazis: game.

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009 2:18 PM | Report abuse

"We just discovered nunof's MPD trigger. Defend the WaPo and he alters into periculum."

Posted by: dclifer97 | May 22, 2009

dclifer: some bozo who was probably born in Arbutus.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:19 PM | Report abuse

Sorry, Vannevar Bush invented this and literally predicted the future in that singular article in 1945. He trumps all, even the great OZ.

"and you can't trump the Godwin Rule. You invoked Nazis: game."

"Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009"

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:20 PM | Report abuse

"I'll take on the critics on the merits of the argument as best I can. Sheinin's beat was national baseball, not the local beat. I like having more baseball more of the time, so Shiner can write about whatever he thinks interesting as long as he wants."

I probably wouldn't have said anything about this post, except that Sheinin posted it on Nationals Journal - indicating that he considers it part of the Post's Nationals coverage. I mean, that's why they call it NATIONALS Journal, right? And given that, it strikes me as a little bit odd that the Post gives such big play to an Orioles-related issue when it practically ignored Zimmerman's hitting streak - especially once it ended. The radio guys produced a nice montage of the calls from all thirty games to commemorate it. The Post did nothing, even though they have the technology. After all, they were able to diagram in excruciating detail every one of Alex Ovechkin's shots on goal during the playoffs in full color in the print edition. They couldn't have done something like that for Zimmerman's streak, too - even if it would have meant delaying Sheinin's rehashed attendance p*ssing article til the next off day?

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 2:20 PM | Report abuse

and the quote traditionally attributed to HST, even though he said he was quoting someone else, is "If you can't stand" [or "don't like" in some versions] "the heat, get out of the kitchen."

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009 2:26 PM | Report abuse

There's no "Vannevar Bush" rule, you chisler.

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009 2:26 PM | Report abuse

and the quote traditionally attributed to HST, even though he said he was quoting someone else, is "If you can't stand" [or "don't like" in some versions] "the heat, get out of the kitchen."

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009

Then the dude should abide. HST was a wise man.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:27 PM | Report abuse

"There's no "Vannevar Bush" rule, you chisler."

"Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009"

Sure there is. Let Godwin predict the future. Doubt he would even come close.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Anyhow, the post isn't about TTTMNBN, it's about Zimmerman, and this weekend's opposing team. Summa you people. Sheeesh.

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009 2:28 PM | Report abuse

But Sheinin's article in today's Post was all about Markakis. The naked truth about Markakis, as it were. And it was far longer than anything the Post has published about Zimmerman lately. "Oh, did he hit in 30 straight games? Maybe we should write a paragraph about it sometime, if we can find the space."

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 2:32 PM | Report abuse

I must summarily agree with nunof1 on this diatribe. He makes sense, the rest of the arguments appear to me to be more like the kind of overtures that Vinnie Cerrato must be forced to make to his boss San Snyder every day.

These reporters have tough hides. Else they couldn't do their job. They are supposed to be objective (as are their editors) this is a good vehicle/mechanism to enforce that. Thus the "Vannevar Bush" 0th challenge of computer science.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:34 PM | Report abuse

Nunof1, Too many kids graduate from JHU, UMD and Peabody from Balimer majoring in journalism and then working for WaPo. Damned Ballimer fans. Whatever happened to Richard Justice.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:37 PM | Report abuse

Tom Boswell: former Orioles beat writer.
Michael Wilbon: former Orioles beat writer.
Dave Sheinin: former Orioles beat writer.

Maybe it's like being a Marine. You know, once a Marine, always a Marine. Once an Orioles writer, always an Orioles writer. Ironic isn't it though that while the Baltimore Sun fires its Orioles writers, the Washington Post promotes them and puts them in charge of everything.

Richard Justice - also a former Orioles beat writer - somehow escaped. According to Wikipedia, he is a sports columnist for the Houston Chronicle. I wonder what Astros fans think of his Orioles coverage there?

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

I'll take Zimmerman over a right fielder. Its harder to find a guy who can play the hot corner and is the kind of hitter that Zimmerman appears to be morphing into.

In other words for Ballimer fans: Brooks Robinson, Cal Ripken ...

Now, a really good centerfielder, that might be a different story.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:47 PM | Report abuse

"How much do reporters like Boswell, with his rather "strong opinions" know about baseball. I wonder if he ever played? What are his qualifications?"

I’m sorry, I don’t like getting into pi$$ing matches, but Boswell has been writing very eloquently about baseball for decades. I remember reading "How Life Imitates the World Series" and "Why Time Begins on Opening Day" decades ago. You may not agree with him, but please don't attack him personally.

Posted by: twinbrook | May 22, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

OH _MY_GOD

Stop being spoiled brats, this is interesting. What are we never supposed to post things about the teams we're playing now?

There are two halves to every inning, morons, eventually the other team has to be mentioned. Go back to your holes.

Posted by: Section506 | May 22, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

"Richard Justice - also a former Orioles beat writer - somehow escaped."

Also a huge Skins fan, and Skins beat writer. I rather believe that if the Nationals were the team in town at that time he would have dropped the "O's" like a soggy cheerio dripping with milk and would have instantly become the solid Shredded wheat of a true Nationals Fan.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:50 PM | Report abuse

"I’m sorry, I don’t like getting into pi$$ing matches, but Boswell has been writing very eloquently about baseball for decades. I remember reading "How Life Imitates the World Series" and "Why Time Begins on Opening Day" decades ago. You may not agree with him, but please don't attack him personally."
"Posted by: twinbrook | May 22, 2009"

He and his alter ego Sally Jenkins also like to post their "opinions" about the Redskins and football.

Again, Dr. Einstein, what are their qualifications? How many major league games did they play? How many years did they play professional baseball? What positions did they play? Did they ever coach or manage a professional team at any level?

Even a moron like you has as much acumen as these people do. So, of course they should be questioned, and probed, and excoriated when they voice their "opinions". To do otherwise is like accepting someone's word when they claim they just invented "cold fusion".

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

Second 506's comments - not only that, but Markakis was used as a benchmark by both Zimm and the Nats during contract negotiations. It's not like Dave's just throwing this out as an excuse to mention an Oriole - the players are linked.

Posted by: Section220 | May 22, 2009 3:02 PM | Report abuse

"Stop being spoiled brats, this is interesting. What are we never supposed to post things about the teams we're playing now?

There are two halves to every inning, morons, eventually the other team has to be mentioned. Go back to your holes."

Nothing wrong with seeing stuff about the other teams here. Just that there needs to be a good deal less of that than there is stuff about the Nats, which when the other team is the Orioles seems not to be the case.

As for morons, I suppose it takes one to know one.

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 3:04 PM | Report abuse

Zimmerman was not mentioned once in Sheinin's extensive Markakis article that appeared in the print edition today and is linked in this post.

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 3:06 PM | Report abuse

By the way, for anyone interested in baseball, if you're a subscriber to BP, they have two pieces today that involve Zimmerman. One using his hit streak as a springboard for discussing streaks, and the other on whether the streak is a portent of a new Zimm. Conclusion on the second is that even if he doesn't maintain his current numbers (which he won't), even if these numbers are "mostly real," he's developed into quite a valuable player. Interesting stuff.

Posted by: Section220 | May 22, 2009 3:07 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, and you know what? If there wasn't all this temper tantrum going on we might convince Dave to do an analysis of EVERY series match up.

But no, you want to go bury your head in the self-absorbed sand.

I say, a smart fan, cares very much about a close look at the other team.

Posted by: Section506 | May 22, 2009 3:08 PM | Report abuse

I don't see Sheinin doing any analysis of this series matchup with the O's. Where did you find that, 506?

Posted by: nunof1 | May 22, 2009 3:10 PM | Report abuse

Wow... guess I struck a nerve. I go to a meeting and find a firestorm has erupted in my absence. What fun! Periculum was actually one of the pompous windbags I was referring to -- though mostly on RI -- in addition to CiL and nunof.

I think you've all proven my point.

You folks are the reason talk radio is impossible to listen to -- people with an opinion and tons of indignation but no actual knowledge or comprehension of the material they're spouting off about. Don't get me wrong, they -- like you -- THINK they know what they're talking about. But alas... not so much.

You kind of remind me of that famous philosopher Emily Lattela. Always venting, but not having the facts straight. "No, Emily... endangered SPECIES"....

"Oh. Never mind". :)

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 3:11 PM | Report abuse

"Second 506's comments - not only that, but Markakis was used as a benchmark by both Zimm and the Nats during contract negotiations. It's not like Dave's just throwing this out as an excuse to mention an Oriole - the players are linked."

"Posted by: Section220 | May 22, 2009"

And thank god because it sure seems like the Zim is out to prove he is better and worth every penny and then some. Wish Acta would learn to do the same.

So, let's do Shenin's job and see how the head-to-head looks so far ...
__________AB___R__H___2b___3b__HR__RBI__OBP__SLG__AVG
Marakis :
**********159*36**52**13***0***7***35***.401**.541*.327
Zimmerman :
**********173*34**61**14***0***10**32***.409**.607*.353

Hmmm the Zim looks better if you ask me?

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 3:15 PM | Report abuse

Arrogant Imbecile Outsider6:

A senseless tackling dummy who think it's the greatest sort of compliment when you pay any attention to him at all, whether you best him or not. He eats it up.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 3:18 PM | Report abuse

Former Orioles beat writer Tim Kurkjian on ESPN.com says it's not all doom and gloom for the Nats.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4198972

Posted by: leetee1955 | May 22, 2009 3:18 PM | Report abuse

Ouch.

Turns out periculum is my wife! Did not see that coming.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 3:22 PM | Report abuse

Former Orioles beat writer Tim Kurkjian on ESPN.com says it's not all doom and gloom for the Nats.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4198972

Posted by: leetee1955 | May 22, 2009


I hope he is right. But I don't think they should trade Nick the stick. He looks like he too is coming into his own after the run of bad luck. He needs a year to mend enough to get back his power stroke. Batting in front of the new-and-improved Zim, followed by the suddenly higher average hitting Dunn?

If they need to trade someone I would trade Guzman (who also seems to get injured an awful lot) because you can probably re-build the bullpen now with what you would get for him.


Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 3:28 PM | Report abuse

There are lots of guys who can be known as "former Orioles beat writers" like Boswell, Sheinin, Justice, Buster Olney, Marc Carig, Jorge Arangure Jr., Joe Strauss - who the O's fans literally ran out of town because of his allegdly "biased" coverage against the AngelO's - Ken Rosenthal, not to mention the two writers who got whacked WHILE ACTUALLY COVERING A GAME at OPACY earlier this year. Tough beat

Posted by: leetee1955 | May 22, 2009 3:31 PM | Report abuse

Ouch.

Turns out periculum is my wife! Did not see that coming.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009

This new learning amazes me, Sir Outsider6. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes?

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 3:31 PM | Report abuse

Last year, the Nationals scored the third-fewest runs (641) in the major leagues. This year, they're second in the NL with 205, putting them on pace to score 200 more runs than in 2008. "Last year, I'd come to the park hoping we didn't get shut out," Acta said. "We had to hit [outfielder Lastings] Milledge and [catcher Jesus] Flores in the middle of the order. That was pretty weak. Now, when we're at full throttle, I can hit Flores seventh or eighth."
---------------------------
Sweet quote Manny... geesh!

Posted by: dclifer97 | May 22, 2009 3:31 PM | Report abuse

Interesting piece by Kurkjian. I do think that if half of our young pitching pans out, we're in pretty good shape. Between Lannan, Zimmermann, Detwiler, Martis, Stammen, Bally, McGeary and this college pitcher I hear we're thinking about, that's pretty good odds to come up with a solid rotation, no?

Posted by: Section220 | May 22, 2009 3:32 PM | Report abuse

Oh, Periculum, let's not go to Camelot. It's a silly place.

Now if you want to talk about the flux capacitor...

To recap: Zimmerman vs. Markakis -- I'll take Zim.

Nunof1, CiL, Periculum, Dovelevine: bad

Most other bloggers and the NJ staff: good.

I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waiter.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 3:38 PM | Report abuse

new post with lineups.

Posted by: leetee1955 | May 22, 2009 3:41 PM | Report abuse

Nunof1, CiL, Periculum, Dovelevine: bad
Most other bloggers and the NJ staff: good.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009

________________________________

On outsider6:

Rumor has it he's almost incomprehensible in person (owing to his heavily accented and alchohol-slurred speech) and this combined with his being dirt poor and ugly makes him very uncomfortable with human interaction of any kind.

Posted by: periculum | May 22, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

Outsider6:

What's your problem? Why are you taking shots at me repeatedly when I--until just now--haven't even had a chance to so much as look at NJ today, let alone post?

If you have anything productive to post here, why don't you go ahead and post it, rather than just attacking other posters? As for the (relatively rare) instances when I do comment about the coverage these days, I think the tone and content of my comments speak for themselves; as far as whether they are "acceptable" here or not, I will simply state that the Post's Nats beat writers and editors don't appear to share your view.

Posted by: CoverageisLacking | May 22, 2009 3:54 PM | Report abuse

Would you like the last word, P? I think you REALLY need to have the last word.

Go ahead... It's all yours. Being dirt poor and all, I can't afford the last word.

:)

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 3:54 PM | Report abuse

I'll second that, sec. 3

---

It's not the criticism of the Post (here or any other section) that bugs people, I believe, but I'll speak for myself. It's the unjustified hatespeak. Where do people get the idea it's OK to talk to--nevermind *about*--another human being like that? Srsly. This ain't church, but still. It's hard to take people seriously when they talk like such punks.

Posted by: Sec3mysofa | May 22, 2009 2:17 PM | Report abuse

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 4:03 PM | Report abuse

I think that would be ex-wife, outsider. ;-)

---

Ouch.

Turns out periculum is my wife! Did not see that coming.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 4:04 PM | Report abuse

Here's my 2 cents worth regarding outsider6's comments re: the nastiness of some bloggers here. He is spot on. I've been living amongst the Redsox nation for almost 30 years now, while still clinging to being a fan of the O's. I'm old enough to have been to RFK to see the Senators and am thrilled D.C. has their own team again. To be able to read about the Nats online is a daily pleasure, and enjoy the job the Post writers do. For those of you clinging to a haterd of the O's, or bashing the writers over nothing: GROW UP!! If you could put your thoughts down with any sense of decency or grammar, let alone spelling accuracy, I'd have a little more respect for you.

Posted by: natsfaninexile | May 22, 2009 4:08 PM | Report abuse

CiL: It's a fan forum. I don't think the writers and editors have much choice but to endure the beratement you and your ilk mete out. Unless you become obscene they don't interfere.

But that doesn't excuse the unwarranted attacks on the staff. I'd love to see a blog by co-workers of folks like you in which they critique YOUR job performance. Oh, I know you're probably tops -- the best in your organization -- but there'd still be some grumbling, mad-at-the-world, bitter-at-his-state-in-life complainer like you or the others already listed who think they know better. And instead of just enjoying the interplay and sincere, passionate, respectful debate among people with a common passion, they try to elevate themselves by bashing someone else who's just trying to do their job honestly and honorably. You may not have spouted off today, CiL, but you do. Often. And you will again.

Just sayin'.

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 4:13 PM | Report abuse

Thanks to PB for the rankings.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 4:14 PM | Report abuse

As a public service, I report that the corresponding post on the Baseball Insider now has a poll embedded in it. Vote early and vote often. :-D

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 4:18 PM | Report abuse

Natsfan: still with her after 24 years... she keeps me grounded! Who else would know just what an "arrogant imbecile" I really am and be able to call me on it? :)

Well, except the folks on this blog! CiL and nunof1 would back her up...

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 4:21 PM | Report abuse

Outsider6, this will be my last comment on the subject. As long as you keep speaking in generalities about my supposed inappropriate comments, it is impossible to engage in a meaningful discussion with you. How about this: the next time you see me "spout off," why don't you address my specific comment on the merits, and the way in which you disagree with it or believe it is inappropriate? Then we can have a meaningful discussion.

Also, here's a novel idea: instead of just attacking other commenters, why don't you try to actually make an affirmative contribution and add something to the discussion.

Finally, if you think that writers and editors have "endured" my comments in the past and simply "don't interefere," then again, you are not paying attention. I'll leave it at that.

Posted by: CoverageisLacking | May 22, 2009 4:27 PM | Report abuse

Oh, now I get it, outsider. Congrats on the 24 years - that's an accomplishment!

---

Natsfan: still with her after 24 years... she keeps me grounded! Who else would know just what an "arrogant imbecile" I really am and be able to call me on it? :)

Well, except the folks on this blog! CiL and nunof1 would back her up...

Posted by: outsider6 | May 22, 2009 4:21 PM

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | May 22, 2009 4:30 PM | Report abuse

For the record, the Post doesn't hate the Nats. They just like to cover football (and basketball), and they don't hire writers who understand the other sports, except for baseball. And then they undercover baseball.

Posted by: paulkp | May 22, 2009 10:07 PM | Report abuse

I know this post is like a tree falling in the forest, because of new posts, but I hope that all who comment here will remember what's most important to us: the success of the Nationals; mostly on the field, but enough financially that we don't to go through again what I've gone through twice: losing my team. Please don't let that happen again.

I add that, as somebody who goes to work every day and tries to do a good job as a newspaperman, please don't be so vicious in your accusations of bias directed toward the Post folks. It's a very difficult environment working for a paper right now, but nevertheless good journalists always are focused on fairness, and the people at the Post are good journalists.

Posted by: nats24 | May 23, 2009 3:17 AM | Report abuse

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