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Will Zimmerman bring home the Gold?

Those of us fortunate enough to see Ryan Zimmerman play third base on a regular basis know how brilliant a defensive player he is. Not a game goes by, it seems, where he doesn't make some incredible, jaw-dropping play. Nobody charges a bunt like him, and nobody makes the diving stop down the line as well as him. In about six hours from now, we will find out whether he is rewarded for his brilliance with a nifty piece of hardware.

The National League Gold Glove Award winners will be announced this afternoon, and third base presents an interesting choice-- one that might tell us just how closely the voters (NL managers and coaches) were paying attention this year.

The award is often dismissed as arbitrary and silly, but clearly it matters to Zimmerman, who told The Post in September, "It would be a huge individual accomplishment."

The way I figure it, there are four criteria a voter can choose from when making his pick: Reputation (this would appear to have been the overriding criterion of the AL picks, announced yesterday); visible, non-statistical evidence (just go with what your eyes tell you); traditional stats; or modern, advanced stats.

By two of those criteria -- visible evidence and advanced stats -- Zimmerman would be the obvious choice. By traditional stats, the choice would probably be San Diego's Kevin Kouzmanoff, who set a major league record this season for best fielding percentage by a third baseman (.990). By reputation? I'm not sure -- maybe the New York Mets' David Wright (who won in both 2007 and 2008).

With Wright having an off year, the award undoubtedly will come down to Zimmerman and Kouzmanoff. Chico laid out the Zimmerman/Kouzmanoff argument back in September, but it's worth revisiting today.

Here is how the two candidates stack up in traditional and non-traditional stats (with their rank in each category among qualifying NL players in parantheses):

Player TC E FP UZR
Kouzmanoff 311(8) 3(1) 990(1) 7.5(3)
Zimmerman 459(1) 17(16) 963(12) 18.1(1)

(Total chances, errors and fielding percentage were taken from STATS LLC. UZR, or ultimate zone rating, comes from Fangraphs.com and is defined as the number of runs a player has saved or let in, above or below an average player at that position, based on his relative ability to get to balls hit in his vicinity and convert them into outs.)

Zimmerman, it should be noted, has already won "The Fielding Bible Award" for all major league third basemen, edging out Seattle's Adrian Beltre, in voting by a panel of sabermetrically inclined experts -- including John Dewan, whose patented plus/minus rating system (in which Zimmerman ranked first) is considered the most sophisticated measure of all-around defensive excellence.

How closely are the voters paying attention? Are they voting with their eyes, their brains or their guts? We'll find out soon enough.

By Dave Sheinin  |  November 11, 2009; 8:04 AM ET
 
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Comments

I'm actually a little nervous over this. Zim deserves the award, hands down and I hope his peers do the right thing (which they often times don't - see Wright, David).

Regardless of the numbers, Zim's the best defensive 3B in the game and one of the top overall defenders at any position.

I hate to say it, but maybe the 30 hr's get it done for him this year.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 9:24 AM | Report abuse

17 errors! Zim does not deserve to win this thing. (BTW, number of runs saved? pretty damned speculative no?)

Sure, Zim has a flare for the dramatic play and he has the possibility of being an elite fielder but he just is not there yet. A 3B's job is to catch/knock down what is hit at him and make the throw for the out. Zim can stab it like few others, but that pesky throw is still a big problem for the kid.

Posted by: dfh21 | November 11, 2009 9:30 AM | Report abuse

dfh21, you're nuts.

Stopping balls from getting into the outfield is also a big part of the job at 3B. Zim got to almost 150(!) more balls and only made 15 more E's.

Would you rather have 15 more runners on base or 150? There's your answer right there.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 9:38 AM | Report abuse

Total putouts are not speculative.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 9:41 AM | Report abuse

Plus, Z-man is Master of the Web Gem Universe. :-)

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | November 11, 2009 9:47 AM | Report abuse

He got over his early season yips and did a superb fielding job thereon in. I hope he gets it. By the way, I renewed my 20 gameer for another season. I feel the spirit of '05 will return to NATS Park in '10.

Sec 204 Row H Seat 7

Posted by: adhardwick | November 11, 2009 9:58 AM | Report abuse

This will be an interesting vote. Thanks for the post,Dave, as well as for the reminder of that beat reporter of days gone by, Chico.

Doubt that most managers and coaches (Charlie Manuel, e.g.)are familiar with UZRs, so that will hurt Zim. On the other hand, they're all familiar with Web Gems, so that'll help. Say, can Acta vote? OK, he'd probably be biased in favor of Zim, but at least he'd understand UZRs. If these guys convene to vote, like the College of Cardinals, he could explain the concept to his colleagues.

Posted by: CapPeterson1 | November 11, 2009 10:08 AM | Report abuse

I hate to say this but, my gut tells me that Kouzmanoff wins because of setting the record fielding percentage.

I don't agree with it because, Zim gets to so many more balls and therefore, has more chances to make errors. Kousmanoff is obviously a statue who makes the routine play.

Posted by: Section505203 | November 11, 2009 10:10 AM | Report abuse

1. Pedro Feliz.
2. Kevin Kouzmanoff.
3. Zimm.

I love the guy, and if it's based on flash-and-dash (like ESPN's Web gems), he wins hands down. But Feliz makes all the plays that Zimm makes without the throwing errors. Kouzmanoff is just like a stationary fielding machine (if there is such a thing). Three errors all year is amazing, I don't care what his range is.
I love Zimm, but I watched too many throws high and wide, low and wide and just wide to give him this thing. Having said that, he's a terrific third baseman and great player. Just not a GG, this year.

Posted by: Sunshine_Bobby_Carpenter_Is_Too_Pessimistic_For_Me | November 11, 2009 10:11 AM | Report abuse

Did Jeter really deserve the award? I thought his range is not what it used to be. Is this year's award more like a tip of the hat to him for a career well done, or did he have only a few errors because his range was not so good?

Feliz has a good chance, being on the Phillies, but I think Zimm will win.

Posted by: poncedeleroy | November 11, 2009 10:15 AM | Report abuse

Feliz??? Please do not bring in Philly talk into this. Also, a couple of years ago (or maybe even last year, '08) Wright won it even though Zimm had the better numbers. I would be PO'D if Zimm doesn't get it. And Kouz had so many less chances than Zimm. I am also nervous about this but he should get it.

Posted by: big_game_lannan | November 11, 2009 10:26 AM | Report abuse

BTW, Zimm should also bring in a Silver Slugger Award this winter.

Posted by: big_game_lannan | November 11, 2009 10:29 AM | Report abuse

I believe that they voted before the end of the season, and that they could vote on players in their own league but not on their own team.

---

Say, can Acta vote? OK, he'd probably be biased in favor of Zim, but at least he'd understand UZRs. If these guys convene to vote, like the College of Cardinals, he could explain the concept to his colleagues.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | November 11, 2009 10:29 AM | Report abuse

sec307 -- I am nuts? Zim did have 17 errors. I saw a lot of those LIVE. That 15 versus 150 stuff you spewed is just dumb -- is it Kouzmanoff's fault the ball was not hit to him as often? or that he played fewer innings?

UZR is not much a measure on its own, as it does not rate a player's arm and does not include line drives or pop ups at all. It is about turning ground balls hit into particular zones into outs -- nothing more. And how it is determined is not fully objective either.

Errors are not exactly fully objective either, but that stat is the big one. Kouzmanoff broke the all time record for fielding percentage by a NL 3B. The guy made 3 errors. Three.

Zim way win it and if he does it will not be some terrible injustice, but when a guy breaks the all time fielding record and he does not win, he might have an argument that the Gold Glove is for pretty boys who hit 30 HR's like Wright and Zimm more than it is about who is the best fielder.

Posted by: dfh21 | November 11, 2009 10:32 AM | Report abuse

Isn't it "as well as he"?

Zimm had a bout of bad throwing that lowered his fielding percentage, but he is one slick third baseman. IMO he should win this year, and will win for many years to come.

Posted by: markfromark | November 11, 2009 10:44 AM | Report abuse

As a side note, mlb.com did not include Josh Willingham's two consecutive grand slams as a 2009 Moment under Performance. Guess that's what you get when you finish in last place, and do something more rare than a perfect game or hitting for the cycle.

Posted by: dand187 | November 11, 2009 10:45 AM | Report abuse

I want Zimmerman to win this as much as the rest of the fans but that 17 number and a lower fielding % is going to make it harder for him.

Posted by: alex35332 | November 11, 2009 10:45 AM | Report abuse

I could stand in a pair of concrete shoes in the general vicinity of third base, watch hundreds of balls sail past me over the course of the season, and just because I managed to catch every ball hit right at me I would break the all-time fielding record for third basemen. Big effin deal.

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 10:46 AM | Report abuse

Good point re. the two grand slams, dand.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | November 11, 2009 10:48 AM | Report abuse

is it Kouzmanoff's fault the ball was not hit to him as often?

The point is that the same ball that is not "hit to Kouzmanoff" is hit to Zimm because he gets to them. There was a year when Carlos Lee had no errors, FP of 1.000, no one would give him the Gold Glove for left fielders cause he didn't get to all that much.

Posted by: markfromark | November 11, 2009 10:49 AM | Report abuse

MLB Network did air a rundown of the top offensive performances of the year recently, and they included Willingham's two-slam night.

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 10:53 AM | Report abuse

Gold Glove third basemen do not just get the balls that are hit to them. They go and get balls that would get by other third basemen. That's why Zimmerman deserves the Gold Glove.

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 10:56 AM | Report abuse

Great point section309.

Posted by: big_game_lannan | November 11, 2009 11:03 AM | Report abuse

Let's hope the voters got it correct and give Ryan Zimmerman the Gold Glove!

Posted by: dmacman88 | November 11, 2009 11:11 AM | Report abuse

I like Zimmerman he's the total package and will be around for a long time. He does make jaw dropping plays regularty. But he doesn't deserve the award. Way to often he couldn't get the ball to first base on routine plays. His opposition made 14 fewer errors. For me the gold glove should go to the player that has the highest fielding percentage. Offense and popularity should not play a part in it.

Posted by: pstotts15 | November 11, 2009 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Is it Kouzmanoff's fault the ball was not hit to him as often?

YES. This has already been said by 309, but YES, it is his fault, because he doens't get to those balls, because his range is nowhere as good, because he's not close to the defensive player Zimmerman is.

Posted by: Section220 | November 11, 2009 11:14 AM | Report abuse

Sounds like this year's NL 3rd base GG award is a referendum on fielding percentage vs. total chances. I vote for chances, and don't buy the argument that Kouzmanoff can't help it if they don't hit it to him.

For a defense, the opportunity to make an out is a terrible thing to waste. An error is a missed opportunity that is recorded in the books. Not getting to a playable ball is a missed opportunity that is not recorded. But not getting to a lot of playable balls in the course of a full season is reflected in total chances.

I guess that means I vote for Zim.

Posted by: KenNat | November 11, 2009 11:19 AM | Report abuse

I have to echo what many posters have already said: Kouz, while not making errors, is not the best defensive third baseman in the game. How many times did he fail to make a bare-handed play on a slow roller that resulted in an infield single? How many lasers down the line went for doubles because he couldn't knock the ball down? How many times did the SS simply eat a slow roller just to that side of the mound because he had no angle, and the third baseman couldn't be bothered to cut the ball off and make the play? There are more measures than simple fielding percentage, and Zim has that fool beat in every one of them.

Posted by: Cavalier83 | November 11, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

I'm split between two opinions on this award this year. The AL awards really looked more like Silver Sluggers, and if the NL goes the same then Zimm may very will get it.

If however the voters get obsessed with the fielding percentage, Zim's not getting it. It just seems to me the guys voting for this award (managers/coaches) are not aware of modern day statistical measures like UZR and range factors, and thus won't look further than the small number of errors Kuzmanoff made.

Same goes with people who think Wins are a good indicator of a pitcher's value.

Posted by: tboss | November 11, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Cavalier83 nailed it. I'd be shocked if Kouzmanoff won. I recall the San Diego announcers on an MLB-TV game talking about it and acknowledging that their guy probably isn't the best.

Posted by: nats24 | November 11, 2009 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Wow. Such passion over range being the determinant that should carry Zim to the Gold? Zim can get to the ball better than most guys -- no argument.

But the award is for total fielding not just the ability to get to the ground ball. Zim led the league in great categories: outs, assists and GAMES STARTED (20 more than Kouz, 150 more innings played). (Maybe Zim's durability should get him ponts? Maybe.) His range is great, but does that make up for the huge number of errors he commited on a relative basis? (If you make a great diving play on a ball to the hole and throw the ball into the seats, a runner who should be on first in now on second -- the single would have been better.)

Anyway, Kouz had the best zone rating in the league according to Stats Inc. (meaning he was the most efficient at fileding his zone -- thus, he is not to blame for marginally less chances coming his way on a per inning -- he just isn't), he made ZERO throwing errors --the arm is part of the discussion folks -- and he turned just 4 fewer DP's than our boy. The guy is deserving.

Zim is likely going to win this thing, and I have no doubt that he can become an annual fixture as an awardee, but he's no Brooks Robinson at this point and by no means has he crushed the field for this award. (If you want to really crunch the stats and psuedo-stats with the sabermetric folks you'd likely end up giving the hardware to Pedro Feliz anyway.)

Posted by: dfh21 | November 11, 2009 12:06 PM | Report abuse

Zimm probably won't win, he doesn't have the same visibility as other players what with playing on the Nationals and all. The stupid voters will probably pick David Wright or somebody else on reputation. From the AL picks, it's quite evident that they didn't look at any statistics at all for most of their picks.

Posted by: futbolclif | November 11, 2009 12:11 PM | Report abuse

Zim has over 100 more assists than Kouz... end of story.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 12:12 PM | Report abuse

That's why they call the stat fielding "percentage" -- Zim gets an out .963 percent of the time Kouzmanoff .990 percent.

Zim had 4 more assists than LaRoche and LaRoche had a better range factr and a better fiedling percentage -- should Andy get the GG? No.

Posted by: dfh21 | November 11, 2009 12:24 PM | Report abuse

Why didn't the Nats do a DVD for FoTF?

From MLB.com:The other corner position of the infield has intrigue, too, with last year's winner, the New York Mets' David Wright, looking like more of an also-ran this season because of an injury-shortened campaign. This should open the door for a battle between Washington's Ryan Zimmerman and San Diego's Kevin Kouzmanoff, both of whom can make solid Gold Glove arguments.

Zimmerman, who enjoyed a stellar year at the plate, led all NL third basemen in assists, total chances, total outs recorded and games started. Kouzmanoff set a single-season record for NL third basemen with a .990 fielding percentage, made only three errors and got political help from his team when the Padres in September overnighted a DVD to the other 15 NL managers with a note that supports the team's push for him to win a Gold Glove.

Posted by: flynnie2 | November 11, 2009 12:36 PM | Report abuse

Why are you ignoring UZR? Is it because it shows that Zim is hands-down the best defensive 3B?

Fielding % is only part of the equation, and when you add everything together - including Web Gems - Zim's CLEARLY the BEST.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse

A defender's job is get people out and no 3B got more outs than Zim. I subscribe to the mantra of "Nothing risked, nothing gained" and Kouz does not risk bad plays and thus does not make great plays.

Zimmerman is THE BEST, regardless of what happens with the award today.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

"Why didn't the Nats do a DVD for FoTF?"

No DVD would have been necessary. They could have simply e-mailed instructions to the voters on how to Tivo Web Gems off ESPN.

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 12:43 PM | Report abuse

dfh21,

By your reasoning, we should have moved Austin Kearns to SS - he'd win a Gold Glove! Sure, he'd get to 30% less balls than any other SS, but his throws would be perfect, and thus would have a high fielding percentage, and thus would deserve the Gold Glove.

The game is about OUTS. Zim gets to more balls and gets more OUTS than any other 3B. This is why stats like fielding percentage have lost merit.

Any manager would choose Zim over Kouz to play 3B, because they would much rather have the 150 more hits turned into OUTS than have the 14 errors back.

Posted by: osodani | November 11, 2009 12:44 PM | Report abuse

Just saw this on a site called True Blue LA:

"These aren't anywhere else yet that I know of.

My friend is associated with the MLB and said he got this passed down to him this morning.

NL Gold Glove Winners

P - Adam Wainwright
C - Yadier Molina
1B - Adrian Gonzalez
2B - Orlando Hudson
3B - Ryan Zimmerman
SS - Jimmy Rollins
OF - Shane Victorino
OF - Matt Kemp
OF - Michael Bourn

More details about the full voting at my site, if you care.

http://www.memoriesofkevinmalone.com/2009/11/matt-kemp-and-orlando-hudson-among-nl.html

If it's wrong, it's not my fault. :o"

Place your bets now!

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 12:50 PM | Report abuse

At 12:35 Baseball Think Factory posted from True Blue, a Dodger Blog, that Zimm won the gold glove.

Posted by: flynnie2 | November 11, 2009 12:51 PM | Report abuse

I suppose I would be shot down if I said that we're focusing on the wrong Gold Glove candidate on the Nationals?

Posted by: jaumiusk | November 11, 2009 1:04 PM | Report abuse

Seems to me that Zim's fielding percentage/number of errors could have been lower had we had a natural first baseman playing that position all season, rather than a converted outfielder -- some of the errors attributed to Zim might have been because Dunn couldn't pick a few in the dirt or get up and down on a few above his head or grab a wide throw and tag the batter as well as either Adrian Gonzalez (who helped Kouz's numbers) or Murphy or Tatis (who helped Wright's numbers).

Yeah, the errors were attributed to Zim -- but as anyone who's ever played, coached or even just watched baseball can tell you, sometimes your error wouldn't have happened if you had a better first baseman on the other side of the diamond...

Posted by: gr8day4bsbll | November 11, 2009 1:06 PM | Report abuse

jaumiusk, why is it you think Dunn deserves the Gold Glove?

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 1:08 PM | Report abuse

He's just such a wall!
But in all seriousness, don't you think Morgan at least deserves consideration?

Posted by: jaumiusk | November 11, 2009 1:11 PM | Report abuse

"some of the errors attributed to Zim might have been because Dunn couldn't pick a few in the dirt or get up and down on a few above his head or grab a wide throw"

Most of Zimmerman's throwing errors came during that two or three week period when he had the yips. And Johnson was playing first then. But even if Dunn had been there, he still doesn't have the reach to grab those bad throws Zimmerman made.

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 1:12 PM | Report abuse

I don't believe the list that 309 and I posted from BBTF. I don't believe that Orlando Hudson will win the gold glove for 2d base. MLB.com didn't even list him as a dark horse: "Reds second baseman Brandon Phillips, who won the Gold Glove last year, finished the 2009 campaign with a 4.7 RF, 6.9 UZR and nine errors. He should be challenged by the Phillies' Chase Utley, who was ranked second in the Majors only to the Jays' Aaron Hill by The Fielding Bible and bests Phillips in both RF (4.9) and UZR (10.8). He had but three more errors (12) than Phillips. The Astros' Kaz Matsui, with a .991 fielding percentage, six errors and 5.0 RF could be a darkhorse, although his UZR (-1.7) hurts his cause."

Posted by: flynnie2 | November 11, 2009 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Could it really be possible that a guy who lost his job to Ronnie Belliard wins the Gold Glove?

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Tony Plush's injury disqualifies him, in my opinion. But once he puts a complete season together, I believe he'll get some GG pub.

Just because Hudson doesn't make sense doesn't mean it's not the truth. Wright made more errors than Zim two years ago, but won the award due to name recognition. Jeter and Hunter didn't deserve their GG's, yet they still won.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 1:27 PM | Report abuse

Zim got to almost 150(!) more balls and only made 15 more E's.

Would you rather have 15 more runners on base or 150? There's your answer right there.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 9:38 AM |
---------------------------------------------------

Well, that's not really a fair picture. Zimm committed an error on 1 in 10 of those extra chances...and not all of them would fall in the really tough chance category since Kouz played less. Plus, most errors aren't just allowing a runner on base -- considering that Zimm's errors are mostly throwing errors, they usually allow an extra base...putting someone in scoring position. You'd want to know how many of those errors turned into runs -- to compare them to how many runs he might have prevented. I'm guessing the UZR accounts for that, more or less. The UZR suggests it's a close race, at least in terms of overall ranking. If Zimm didn't have that bad spell midseason, it's an easy call..but a lot of those errors came in one bad stretch which has made a horse race out of it.

Posted by: fischy | November 11, 2009 1:31 PM | Report abuse

Nyjer Morgan only played CF from the time he was traded to the Nats at the beginning of July til he got hurt at the end of August. That's only two months, a third of a season. With the Pirates, he played LF - and he wasn't even their everyday guy. So he's probably out of the question for Gold Glove this year. But if he can repeat his performance for an entire season, he'll definitely be in the mix.

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 1:37 PM | Report abuse

Here are the UZR/150 (so games played is out of the equation):

Zimmerman - 20.1
Kouzmanoff - 10.7

So he's almost TWICE as good by that metric. Here's to hoping FoF soon becomes GGFoF!

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 1:50 PM | Report abuse

Totally off-topic but I saw this over at Washington Examiner.com.....I'm sure most of us here aren't crazy about Ex-Reds...or in this case current Reds, but it looks like their trying to cut payroll and have placed 2B Brandon Phillips and SP Bronson Arroyo on the trade block. And some are speculating (in the case Washington Examiner) that the Nats could very well be interested in making a move.....

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sports/blogs/Watch-This/Nats-and-Reds--could-be-dealing-69764967.html

Posted by: FloresFan | November 11, 2009 1:50 PM | Report abuse

I think MLBtraderumors listed Harang too. I like Harang and Phillips (although that would mean Guzzie is back at short), especially Harang. He's a strikeout pitcher that eats innings, in other words, exactly the type of veteran pitcher this club needs. Arroyo's best days are behind him, so I wouldn't waste my time with him.

Posted by: sec307 | November 11, 2009 2:13 PM | Report abuse

Could it really be possible that a guy who lost his job to Ronnie Belliard wins the Gold Glove?

Posted by: section309 | November 11, 2009 1:24 PM | Report abuse

Or that people here are seriously calling for us to sign Hudson as a free agent? It would be like a bizarro Ron Hansen-Tim Cullen deal.

Posted by: poncedeleroy | November 11, 2009 2:13 PM | Report abuse

@FF: One of the websites (MLBTR, I think) made note that the Reds were looking to shed salary. I, for one would love seeing Phillips at 2B in DC; Move Guzman back to SS, and send Desmond back to SYR to start the year. The question is, what could the Nationals give up in order to make the deal? The farm system is fairly thick with bottom-of-rotation starters & middle relief prospects, but still a little thin in the field.

Posted by: BinM | November 11, 2009 2:23 PM | Report abuse

@ponce: I think Hudson has already negotiated a 3-year re-sign with ATL, pending a physical; If the Nationals were going after an ATL pitcher, it would most likely be Lowe.

Posted by: BinM | November 11, 2009 2:30 PM | Report abuse

The reason I like Bronson Arroyo (NSFW):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I-2YW0IzUU

The reason I dislike Bronson Arroyo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usg-NNquO8w

-----

I'm sure most of us here aren't crazy about Ex-Reds...or in this case current Reds, but it looks like their trying to cut payroll and have placed 2B Brandon Phillips and SP Bronson Arroyo on the trade block.

Posted by: JohninMpls | November 11, 2009 2:35 PM | Report abuse

New post.

Posted by: JohninMpls | November 11, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

I had a question about Zimm's throwing -- it looked to me like most of his airmails came when he had lots of time, and you could sort of see him think, don't throw it over the first baseman, then he would. Later in the season it looked to me like he put a bit of a rainbow in his throws on easy plays, so they didn't go past first. Anybody else see that?

Posted by: markfromark | November 11, 2009 3:45 PM | Report abuse

Looks like True Blue's source is good.

Posted by: natsfan1a1 | November 11, 2009 3:50 PM | Report abuse

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