i don't think this big conspiracy will be uncovered. the government has to be involved, and there's no way you can beat the chinese government in this paperwork frenzy.

of course it's all "OK". Rogge is a pompus jerk who wouldn't confront a soul for fear of his precious life. *rolls eyes* Not to mention he OPENLY admitted he didn't want to "offend" the host country. the IOC is riddled with BS and lies, as ALWAYS. If it was the US Gymnasts in question, Rogge would have DQ'ed the entire US Olympic team!

They can and will lie, cheat, and falsify in order to win. The Chinese Government can and will produce false documents, they will tell the families how to act and what to say. So we in the World know that the girls are under age, and that is a violation of the rules. What we also know is that these young girls are very good and their only crime is that their Government has told them to lie and with their future and the future of their families at stake, they will be obedient to their Government. The leader of the Country has said "you have to crack a few eggs in order to make an omlet". So there you go!

I have first hand knowledge in a situation where new "papers" were constructed to get a friend of mine's daughter into the Chinese Military. It cost around $3000 USD. As one other poster put it...you can't beat the Chinese in this paperwork frenzy. They will produce perfect paper, there is no doubt. Then they just might execute the person who didn't properly cleanse the cache of the servers where the probable true records were found.

Joe

A bunch of sore losers. Many of you demanded submission of family books of those involved gymnasts, now Chinese conformed, and you say they falsified documents. Even they submit X-Ray images, you would say those would be fakes, because you just can not accept losing to China, can not accept the truth!

Americans tell the truth and nothing but the truth. So it seems. Where is Bush's Weapons of Mass Destruction? Shame on Americans. Losers stop whining.

very funny TonySu, but i am concerned about this not because the chinese may or may not have cheated, but because there are rules and regulations in place to protect the gymnasts. I couldn't care less about the medals.

Complete BS. Both parties here have an interest in OKing the documents. The IOC & FIG to call this Olympics "legitimate" success, and China to keep their gold medals. The evidence is clear that they are underage and only us free nations will know about it.

I am tired, disappointed, and no longer believe in the integrity of the olympics. The age dispute is disappointing, but it is similar to doping. It is cheating. Consider all the doping by East Germans (especially in swimming) in the 1970s and Marion Jones. At least Marion Jones, came forward albeit late and her admission will never allow the non-cheating olympians to enjoy their moment on the right step at the awards ceremony.

The Chinese will more than likely never come forward.

Journalists were censored in these summer olympics and freedom of speech from protesters was also a farce.

The IOC lacks credibility and integrity. The olympics are dead.

The IOC/FIG should back off. They are wasting their time. There is no limit to the power of an autocratic, fascist state -- if the Chinese want the girls to be 16, then they become (for all intents and purposes) 16.

Let's wait a few years and see if those supposedly non-baby teeth magically grow back (of course, it will be attributed to a miracle of Chinese medicine).

Racist loser cry-babies come-out 2nd.....

of course Americans are sore losers; were used to tailoring rules to fit our purposes, and were mad that China beat us at cheating at a sport no one really cares about. we did not, however, falsify Nastia Liushkin's age so she could have competed in Athens. none of this matters except that China is a pathetic country full of people who are even more politically and intellectually subjugated as Americans. the Chinese govt's behavior is absurd, from their farcical protest areas to their state-run news which makes FOX news look like Jim Lehrer or NPR. enjoy your arbitrary gold medals, rice and communist fantasy world.

Obviously you're not a doctor TonySu. Xrays won't show anything other than their bone growth plates haven't matured. This is an uncommon but real possibility in a normal 16 year old kid and proves nothing since a 12 year old can have mature xrays and a 15 year old may not. It all depends on how quickly you mature and that varies. People aren't trees-you can't just "count the rings" to get the age. This will continue to be an issue since the Chinese like several others in gymnastics have a history of falsifying age records. I don't think for a second that they are all age eligible but it's such a shame for the poor gymnasts that their excellent performances will be forever tainted this way.
Of note-this is not just an American issue. British, Romanian and Russian gymnasts stand to pick up medals if the Chinese are disqualified and if you think for a sec that one of those girls will turn down the chance for a medal upgrade or a Olympics medal you're a bit naive.

olympics is all about cheating, can you belive without drugs 8 gold medals can went to USA? World can only discover mrs jones drug years later after her winning the medal let we wait and see how those 8 gold medal drug story behand

TonySu appears to be another government plant by the Chinese.

I have exstensive experience in pediatrics and I can tell you that these girls are not 16 the excuse about them not growing due to constant training is false. The girls in question are no doubt under 16 and in my opinion 14. But as was said, when china wants you 16 your 16 and the IOC will not question it. These olympics were great to watch but they dont rank high on the list. Doping, cheating and constructing protest sites and not allowing those to use them if they do they get sent to a re education camp.. sad!!

I thought Americans believed in innocent until proven guilty and give people the benefit of doubt. Where are your moral high grounds? You all play the judge and the jury. How can you be so sure they are under age? Where do you get your information? Ask yourself some questions? Don't let ideology bind your eyes? It's not like your government didn't lie to the World. We all know what that was about. I didn't say they are under or above the age, just wait for the investigation play out.

This forum reads like the OJ simpson trial. People with asian names are calling the people with white names racists and such. I guess everybody is right.

Although I will disagree with tony su about the x-rays. Xrays and dental records are as good as fingerprints.

If the chinese want to lie, that's fine. It's their face. I may be american, but I always root for other countries athletes. But It's difficult to root for someone who looks like she is ten and says she is 16.

I also want to point out that some of these children have been taken from their parents and not seen their families in 10-15 years. Is it worth it? I really don't think so.

Remember Marion Lois Jones who cheated the world out of 5 metals in 2000 Olympics?

For Chinese Gymnasts, they won because they were better. If it turned out that some of them was younger than 16, it would not change the fact that they won.

God is entitled to Opinions; For the rest us, Bring the data! The data show that Chinese Gymnasts have the Gold.

I can agree with hunter, I pull for all athletes no matter what country they are from. I really thought the Chinese divers was the best i have seen in years. But it brought up a thought, if they are training as hard as the swimmers and gymnists, why arent they all the same size? Isnt that what was said constant training makes them not grow? well i guess the divers and swimmers musta just started training because they towered over those 14 yr olds... oops sorry 16 year olds.

Simply I think Americans are jealous for Chinese got in this Game. As Canadian, I am not so worry about the age. Who won, that's it.

Sad fact is the own Chinese Government news agency listed He and others at 13 and 14 years old but now we know that those reports were apparently the mistakes.

Couple this with the one Chinese Gymnast who admitted she was only 14 years old when she competed in the 2000 Olympics that won a bronze metal makes this need for a investigation credible in anyone's book. Question is "Why is the bronze medal not taken away from China from 2000?"

To say Americans are sore loser is nothing but classless. As shown above, there is enough suspicion and guilt in the past from the Chinese to warrant this type of investigation. They did it to themselves.

Here is a report from the Associated Press July 4, 2008:

The U.S. military said attack helicopters struck two vehicles carrying insurgents Friday in eastern Afghanistan. The province's governor said 22 civilians, including a woman and a child, were killed.

The child didn't get a chance to the Olympics, does he?

I agree the girls were the better competiters, but rules are rules. what is the age limit to drive in China? if 16, lets see her drive around the block by herself a few times that will settle it all.

Med Doc, you sounded so funny. How many chinese girls have you treated? The X ray test still have 2 years inaccuracy rate. Are you god that you can just tell someone's age precisely by looking at them? Don't be so ridiculous trying to prove your argument by putting your medical credentials as some sort of prof. You may be a good doctor but you are no better than anyone else on this age issue.

to michealfree asking that type question means you need to compete in the special oylmpics.

First off no where in my post did i include xrays, next I have treated children of all nationalities. I have yet to come across a 16 yr old that under developed as china states. Again this will not solve the debate but when you have He's friend stating shes the same age as her and she stated she was 14 then she is quickly shut up by chinese officials, excuses?

Conspiracy, that's typical american's ignorant about outside world. You think american rules are the rules of the world. You can drive a car around at 16 and other countries' 16 year old should be driving around as well. You can't get a driver's license at 16 in China and even if you can, no 16 year olds are given a car to drive in China. China is still a developing and poor country. If you are lucky you can drive a car at 26 there.

Hey michaelfree, the child didn't get a chance to grow up and be a terrorist either. who is to say which way his life would go?

Conspiracy, another point of yours, I don't know which diver you are comparing with. That exactly proves the point that all chinese young girls are flat chestted, not as womanly as your full figured american girls. That's a racial thing not an age thing. Look at those big boys and girls of your western athletes. Should we complain since you are too big to compete with smaller Asians? The younger chinese women divers are just as tiny as you so called underage gymnastic girls.

O.K., let's assume that the Chinese are telling the truth and it is all a paperwork mistake. WHY are the Chinese working 24/7 to delete and/or alter primary documents on the Internet? George Orwell would understand. This doesn't pass the smell test. As Henry David Thoreau said: Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.

Gymanstic routines are hard on the body. Younger bodies are as a general rule more flexible. The bones are not fully formed.

Strenuous activity and equally strenuous diet at an early stage of development put the child at risk for future, possibly crippling, skeletal and hormonal problems. But in Sport this risk is not taken for survival. Over the years competitive adult organizations have sought younger and younger female gymnasts.

In Gymnastics an arbitrary minimum age was established to give some protection to the younger girls.

Children sometimes need to be protected from the warped judgment of those who are
"Swifter, Higher, Stronger."

Conspiracy, FYI. There is no age limit on driving in China. Why should it be? Why can't anyone drive if he/she can pass the test? That should be the same as Olympics. Yes, rules are rules. None of us can prove that rules are broken. As one of the readers puts it, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

Why did US team not protest before or during the game about the age issue? Why after losing the game? If it seems so obvious to everyone, US team should just file a protest and not participating the competition prior to the game started.

People's criticism of "American sore losers" is just as stereotypical as anything you are accusing the Americans of doing. You don't think that if it were AMERICAN gymnasts' age in question there would be an investigation and calls of cheating? Also keep in mind that British, German, and other non-U.S. journalists were pressing this age issue, too. The American athletes have carried themselves with class and sportmanship this Olympics. We are not the ones who kicked a ref after a DQ or left the bronze medal in the middle of the wrestling match in protest or made questionable faces in a team photo. Gay blamed no one but himself when he dropped that baton. American gymnasts made no faces at their scores. Get over the "American sore losers" comments. It just makes you sound like you're out of constructive arguments.

Hey michaelfree, the child didn't get a chance to grow up and be a terrorist either. who is to say which way his life would go?

Posted by: Anonymous | August 24, 2008 2:17 PM

That's the ugliest thing I ever heard someone to say about a child being killed. Will americans kill all the young children in Iraq or Afghanistan to prevent them from growing up becoming a terrorists? I hope you are not an american.

It would have been better for Burma to get these Olympics because even though they have the same corrupt government accumulating foreign reserves with slave labor and shamelessly destroying evidence after the world has already seen it, at least they have better air quality.

sunny, I didn't hear an outcry for investigating Phelps for breaking 5-6 world records and won 8 gold medals in an out of extraordinary manner? Is he doping? I think americans are very well known for double standards. If he is someone else who has beaten american swimmers, you would hear a lot more suspicion in the media if not an all out crying for foul. Lets face it, that's typical american way.

IOC = Corruption in Plain Sight

The point of this in my mind is not about the medals or the if the "rules" are right, fair, or meaningful, it's about the intense desire to cover up and to make documents and records that have been public "disappear". Go read Orwell's "1984".

firstamdt, Too bad, americans are not controlling the world any more. and you are beaten by chinese not just in sports but in many other areas, so you feel threatened. It's a shame that people like you who are purchasing your things right and left made by those slave labors, and shifting all the pollution heavy industry to the poor 3rd world countries so that you can enjoy your comfortable material life at the same time breathing in clean air. And then you turn around condemning those poor people for polluting the world. Where is your soul?

So what about the British Diver who was 14 and made it to the finals? Shouldn't the age limits apply to everyone and not just the Chinese gymnasts?

BS, Anonymous. There wasn't an outcry by the American team to investigate the Jamaicans' track domination, either. If you count the crap you read on comment boards as the voice of American athletes, you're deluded. Half the people on here just say stuff to stir trouble. Comment boards do not equal the voice of American athletes nor most of the people in this country. I, for one, enjoyed watching all of the Olympics. Yes, I was excited to see a local kid get eight medals. But I also was excited when the Chinese men won gold in gymnastics because they were amazing and they got to wow their excited home crowd. I was excited when Kirsty Conventry finally won gold in her last swimming race. And I was thrilled to see Kenya finally win a gold in the marathon, a sport they dominate to a point of awe. The whole games were thrilling for me, and not just because Americans did well. The problem with all of this cheating--by us or anyone--and with venues like this one that allow us to bicker, is that we lose all perspective on what the Games are supposed to be. They're supposed to be inspiring and thrilling. At times, they were. And then I come on here and am quickly reminded about how heartless we all are. I makes me sad deep in my bones that everyone can spew so much hatred. Why can't we all just be happy and love each other. Naive world view, I know. But doesn't it all come back to that? About learning to respect the people around you? (And please don't come back at me with "How can you say that when your country is invading other countries." I didn't vote for the guy, I was against the war before it started. Just like the Chinese people don't have control over their government, I only have so much control over mine.)

Many western media, in particular, US, have been keeping find faults in every aspect about China. They just could not accept a great friendly rising China. Of course China is not perfect, neither any Nation is. But China is progressing, in every aspect. You have to put thing in perspective, and from this point of view, China has been truly GREAT. Compare to 10 year ago and look into the next 10 year, China would be greater powerful inspiring country on this planet.

Wow some of the comments on here are ridiculous. Calling the US whiners? So the Chinese are proud of being frauds and cheats? Not surprising at all coming from a country that uses a FAKE singer, has FAKE fireworks, put up FAKE walls to hide the slums...see a pattern here? The Olympics have shown the world how obsessed the Chinese are with their image, and not their substance.

At least in the US, we punish those who cheat. Marion Jones is in JAIL. The Chinese involved in this gymnastics cheating will be hailed as national heroes! Chinese nationalism has become blind to cheating.

And for the Chinese who think Michael Phelps is doping: Michael Phelps has submitted blood, hair, and urine samples after every race for many years now. He has nothing to hide. Will the cheats in China willingly let their gymnasts be tested as rigorously and transparently as Michael Phelps has done? Fat chance. That's something to be really proud of, right?

suuny, then we are at peace. I totally agree with you. I just read all these postings here like that chinese are so bad that they didn't deserve a chance to host the games and everthing they did was wrong one way or the other. that's not fair and unamerican. I hope people will get pass the ideology differences and see some basic human natural. We all want the world to be a better place. Olympics are the time for people to come together and celebrate for sportsmanship nothing else.

Truth is hard to swallow when those gymnasts look so young. But I think it is unlikely for Chinese government to fake their ages when they are so afraid of losing face in front of the world. They banned a male swimmer for life because of doping before Olympics. Just because they are communists, doesn't mean they are stupid. Don't you think they know that those girls look young? Don't you think they know people will question their ages if they are really not 16? Don't you think the age tricks are so well documented that they will not risk trying this trick in their home soil? Most of the conspiracy theories are not true because truth is sometimes hard to swallow.

Chinesebolgarmy, we all have our doubts here. We are allowed free thinking, aren't we? you can believe chinese fraud and cover up, I can suspect phelps doping. We both have no prof one way or the other. It's all hearingsay. Let's be fair. Americans trust laws, right. Let the authority to do the investigation. Let's wait for the judgment day.

China believes these games represent China's emergence as a superpower - because ping pong and diving truly are important and relevant standards by which countries are judged. Yeah right. Give me a break.

The Chinese government is trying to spin these Olympics into a nationalistic event. Maybe that is why many Chinese are upset that the world is questioning their gymnasts - because they take it personally. Too bad. The Chinese should be angry with their government for putting them in such an embarrassing situation.

China will never be respected as a world power if they keep up their game of deception and propaganda. Soon they will become another USSR. China's power is built on the back of pollution, political repression, and corruption like with these Olympics. It will all fall apart.

The Olympics are about fair and friendly competition! It is not a game to establish national power. The Chinese thought the Olympics were about national power and they cheated to make their nation look better. That is violating the spirit of the games and history will look very poorly upon China for this!

Tony Su says we are a bunch of sore losers. Yes, if they cheated. China, a communist country, has a history of lying, cheating, concealing, deception and corruption. No, change "a history" to "a CULTURE" of the above. Just look at the thousands of children that died in shoddy workmanship in the schools. And you think we should just accept the documentation without testing the original documents and doing the necessary research and follow-up?!

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, it's probably a duck. With the lead-based painted toys, tainted food, etc. that was shipped to the U.S., it appears China cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Perception is reality.

Anonymous, that is exactly my point.

You are more than entitled to doubt Phelps. But Phelps has already submitted all his samples, so you can prove he is not doping.

The Chinese gymnasts (so far) have not given any evidence like X-rays that can not be forged unlike paperwork.

So right now, it's not the same situation at all. Phelps has provided proof. China has not. Shouldn't it be equal and fair both ways? That's my point.

China needs to know that the more they refuse to let their gymnasts be x-rayed, the more doubt people will have. Why not just settle this issue once and for all? It's very easy to solve this, but China is not cooperating and that makes everyone more suspicious.

What I don't understand is that if the allegation is that the Chinese government is supplying fake documents, why does the FIG/IOC ask the Chinese government for more documents.

If you are alleging a state is faking documents, won't the state just produce more fakes?

How can asking for more documents ever prove anything?

Note that with a North Korean gymnast a few years ago, the gymnast was disqualified based on the discrepancies alone.

Given the wealth of online evidence and the fact that another former Chinese gymnast from a previous olympics has already admitted the same, why not just disqualify.

This is very unfair to a lot of young American, Russian and Romanian girls out there that are really at a prime at 13 or 14...

I like CHEN's comments about us being racist losers. First, China won the gold medal count during the summer olympics, but let's see how strong your bobsled team is before you start calling people losers.

Second, perhaps it wouldn't be so easy to call you guys a bunch of cheats if Yang Yun hadn't admitted to doing the same thing back in 2000.

The IOC is a pathetic joke that serves it's corporate and country masters far better than the athletes it's supposed to protect.

Chineseblogarmy, That's not fair right there. Chinese has not been asked to provide xrays by anyone except some media hoopla. And xrays are not like an dna that has a definitive result. It's within 2 years margin. That's where the doubts are. Chinese already provided all paper documents that's out there. Do you think Chinese are stupid enough to forge the documents under the world's scrutiny?

Remember Marion Lois Jones who cheated the world out of 5 metals in 2000 Olympics?

For Chinese Gymnasts, they won because they were better. If it turned out that some of them was younger than 16, it would not change the fact that they won.

Posted by: Fire

Marion Jones is in a U.S. prison now for cheating. That is the value we place on playing by the rules. Allegedly through Chinese government conspiracy, your underaged gymnasts will be feted and honored for winning and being an accessory to cheating. That is the difference in our two countries.

From USA, You argument is ridiculous. Can we say Marion Jones were thrown in jail because of her doping, we should automatically disqualify other US runners? and Should we let the USA be the judge and the jury since anybody else is corrupted and fraudulent. Or we should simply award the gold medals to USA team to avoid all these trouble?

To Tony Su: I think the country that sentences two old women to a re-education camp for protesting is hardly trustworthy when it comes to paperwork. The Chinese government is a brutal, oppressive, uncivilized government. Which is not to say that the U.S. government, especially under Bush, is clean. Like China, we torture (unfortunately). And we bully weaker countries. But China, like North Korea and Myanmar, is among the worst in the world for human rights abuses.

Papers can be forged, but can also be detected. Haven't you watched the show forensics science? You think Chinese are stupid enough to submit forged paper trail that can be analyzed in a matter of days? If you think they are not stupid, then the papers are real. Get over it.

It's a shame that the way the US has handled this has drawn attention from the deficits of the Chinese government. To wit, it's been repeatedly shown to be a lying, murderous organization. I frankly don't care if the gymnasts are underage, but I'm sad that American bluster has been so loud and indignant as to provoke sympathy and indignation for an organization that makes the mafia look like a nursery school.

Jones admits to cheating an all of her medals are taken; Yun admits to cheating and she still holds the bronze medal.

You have to expect China to cheat--after all it is the world's largest producer of pirated products (software, knockoffs, etc.).

But perhaps the IOC could put down its latte long enough to do it's DD. Wasn't this on the front page of the Times 2 months ago?!?!

This is the same IOC that when a gymnast in Sydney admitted on camera she was 14 basically decided "she didnt know what she was talking about". There is ALOT of evidence that the Chinese cheated here but dont think for one minute the IOC is going to give a hoot. The organization is corrupt from top to bottom.

Look on the bright side. Whatever Chinese official doctored those documents had to take a day off from murdering innocent Tibetans.

Godiva Smalley, Have you ever been to China? Have you ever talked to any real chinese people? Have you got all those facts straight as you listed there? I bet you got them your trusted media. Don't forget those media once claimed that WMD in Iraq. I know no everybody has a chance to visit and see real life in China. but I hope you will open your eyes and hear from both sides of the story and don't assume what is true in your papers. I wonder why majority of Chinese are happy with their lives if they are living in one of the worst places on earth? I hope you have watched at least a few clips of the olympics on TV. Do you think any government can fake everybody on the streets? You can make your assumption that those poor chinese people who need rich americans to save them from the worst abuse by the government. I wonder why they are against you, let alone many other people around the world. Stop playing human rights advocates. You are being watched and monitored just as Chinese do and your government tortures people just as chinese government does. You think you have freedom of expression but that's being influenced by your powerful media propaganda as well, just read your posting here, we can be sure of that.

Using the topic of cheating in sports to demonize a particular country or people is specious at best. Cheating in sports, whether it be at the Olympics or in for-profit professional sports happens all around the world including the USA. So just because the likes of Barry Bonds and other pro and amateur U.S. athletes have been caught doping does that make us a nation of immoral cheaters? And just because gold medal winner Jerome Young tested positive for steroids, then was cleared by US Track & Field to compete in the Sydney Olympics, does that mean US sports federations are in cahoots to win at any cost (as the controversial former US drug doping czar Wade Exum has claimed)?

I think there's a lot of false logic being used here to forward personal prejudices. Sit back, enjoy the Olympics and the spirit of friendly (albeit fierce) competition, and marvel at the dedication and skills of all the athletes.

To Anonymous--we are NOT being watched and monitored "just as Chinese do." The very fact that I have access to the full range of Internet news, including many sites that roundly criticize our government and offer up opinions and news that cast the US government in a bad light proves that the US government doesn't act "just as Chinese do." If they did, I would be unable to post to this site, not having sufficient technical expertise to get around those kinds of barriers. Is the US government guilty of heinous human rights abuses, dishonesty, hypocrisy, etc.? Absolutely. And those of us who love our country enough to want it to be above that sort of thing KNOW it, SPEAK it, and AREN'T AFRAID TO BE JAILED FOR SAYING IT. THAT is the difference between the US and China. Certainly, there are many people in China who are content and happy. There are many people in the US who are content and happy too, despite living with a broken healthcare system and a government that makes a mockery of the word "democracy." But take a look at a Chinese prison, sometime. You can judge a country by the state of its prisons, it's said. Ours are shameful — but I'll betcha dollars to donuts theirs are much, much worse.

Yawn. The IOC just needs to drop the age requirement

This IOC "investigation" was just a bone thrown out so the closing ceremonies wouldn't be spoiled by someone making statements embarrassing to the Chinese. Now that the games are over, the IOC can say "case closed" with no risk.

"For Chinese Gymnasts, they won because they were better. If it turned out that some of them was younger than 16, it would not change the fact that they won."

And here it is in a nutshell. The Chinese attitude is "it doesn't matter if someone cheats as long as they win." It's ingrained in the culture, it's why they have no qualms about using poisonous products as substitutes in consumer goods as long as they can pocket the extra cash. (Products which killed hundreds in Panama and China). It's why their schools collapse on their children in earthquakes, while the government buildings remain standing. Ethics? Never heard of them.

Yes, the Chinese gymnasts performed better in the competition. But this is a question of basic fairness, of waiting your turn -- something I suspect is not really part of the culture in China. I've witnessed this in my travels there. Traffic laws are roundly ignored. There's no such thing as lining up, whether you're waiting for a bathroom or to get on a plane. You just push on, even if others were there before you. There are so many people that you just don't get what you want if you are polite and follow the rules.

After so many years of Communist rule, the people have gotten used to not having much control over their lives -- where you work, where you live, whether you get promoted, etc. Now that things have loosened up, everyone is getting what they can, while they can, because you don't know when it could be taken away.

This thinking might be operating for the Chinese gymnastic team. Why wait four years? Get the medals now! Who cares about Western concepts of fairness? But if China really wants to be a player on the international stage, it's going to have to learn. Honoring the concept of fairness shows respect to your opponents. It ensures a level playing field so that when you do win, it actually means something.

"So what about the British Diver who was 14 and made it to the finals? Shouldn't the age limits apply to everyone and not just the Chinese gymnasts?"

First, divers, British or not, don't have such an age requirement.

Second, the age limit doesn't apply just to the Chinese gymnasts. They apply to ALL the gymnasts and it has been explained countless times why such a regulation exists. The other countries' teams complied with the rule, but apparently not China. Therefore, all the other gymnastic teams put themselves at a disadvantage by following the rules.

Do you think in college entrance exams, some students should be allowed to bring books or Internet access with them to the exams, while for other students enforce a requirement that no such aids are allowed? Is that fair? If the student who cheats gets into Harvard as a result, will you say "so what, it's getting into the good school that counts"??

The difference is that the US olympic committee is not going around handing out steriods to the competitors.

The chinese olympic committee and most probably the chinese gov't are complicit in this (and who knows what other cheating).

One other poster got it right: Chinese don't understand the concept of fair. Just try to queue somewhere-anywhere--in the country. About 2 days into a trip there I figured it out and started pushing people out of the way. To be fair, though, it's much worse in Beijing than other parts of the country.

"For Chinese Gymnasts, they won because they were better. If it turned out that some of them was younger than 16, it would not change the fact that they won."

And here it is in a nutshell. The Chinese attitude is "it doesn't matter if someone cheats as long as they win." It's ingrained in the culture, it's why they have no qualms about using poisonous products as substitutes in consumer goods as long as they can pocket the extra cash. (Products which killed hundreds in Panama and China). It's why their schools collapse on their children in earthquakes, while the government buildings remain standing. Ethics? Never heard of them.

Posted by: Anonamouse | August 24, 2008 4:58 PM

For all the discussion about fairness and "waiting for 4 years", you are assuming you have the truth. Who gave you the right to judge other country without the full truth? The only truth we have now is they won because they were better. End of discussion.

Marion Jones is in a U.S. prison now for cheating. That is the value we place on playing by the rules. Allegedly through Chinese government conspiracy, your underaged gymnasts will be feted and honored for winning and being an accessory to cheating. That is the difference in our two countries.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 24, 2008 3:36 PM

Marion Jones is in jail now because the cover is blown. Does it take 7 years to find that out? We can talk about conspiracy all day. However, if you want to have an intelligent debate, you should not equate a government to the country. China as a country (with all the people in it) is just as fair as USA. If you are not capable, please do not try.

To Fire: We are never going to have the full truth here. If potentially false documents from the Chinese government are what spurred this inquiry, then asking the Chinese government to supply more documents to prove the gymnasts' ages is not going to change anything.

But if China did flout the age rules, I am trying to explain why China might not have even thought that this would be a problem. They might not even have thought of it as "cheating," with the negative connotations we have in the West. The lip-syncing girl in the Opening Ceremonies was revealed by the music director himself on a Chinese radio program. He probably did not anticipate the backlash from international media because he did not see it as deceptive. Rather, it was considered the best solution to their "problem." When you live in a Communist country, the truth is really whatever you say it is.

For years, the world has considered China a backwater, and China has had a history of being pushed around by the West. I think this has bred a sense of insecurity that has driven the desire to win at these Olympics at any cost, even if they have to stack the deck. We won't know -- and may never know -- what those gymnasts' real ages are, but it's certainly fishy and casts a cloud over those medals. If FIG and the IOC had pursued this matter when the allegations were first raised -- before the Games even began -- everyone would have been better off.

A friend who lives in China says that even people there think there's no way He is over 14 and that the "official" line for a long while to the Chinese public was that 14 was the minimum age.

Screw Rogge. He's a money-grubbing phony anyway. The Chinese government will forge anything necessary. That's what they're famous for.

China has problems that will be addressed at the Olympics, I am sure of it. The only problem is that it will not be as fast as westerners want.

Here is the problem. China has over 5000 yrs of history where one man (the emperor) controled everything, starting with the first emperor, Qing, to the last emperor. Even after China decleared independence, one man, Mao, controled everything.

So for those of you that want China to be like United States, it is not possible. How can a country with one way of rule for over 5000 yrs all of a sudden change over night? Let's say there a better system of government, can the United States change over night?

For those that just hate China, plain and simple, I've nothing to say. But for those that actually want to see a better China, let me tell you this, China has made tremendous process. Ten years ago I read an article where a chinese murderer was excuted the next day. Now there are trails, believe me, there are.

China has also taken hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. At the same time, there are still millions of Chinese that still live under poverty. So this is more important.

Are there corruption? Absolutely. Take the earth quake for example, after I saw the schools crumbled to pieces, I wanted the officials excuted.

I don't want to write a book, so I'll stop here. Everything takes time. A freer China will be a better China, the governemtn knows better.

I meant after the Olympics.

With the lead paint toys, bad pet food, who is really at fault. Is it all China's? Absolutely not.

Laptop batteries has the chance of blowing up if its made wrong, we all know that. We also know that many of the popular loptops today are made in China. The question is why haven't we heard of any injuries? The answer is that manufactures like Dell makes sure that no matter where the laptops are made, China, America etc...it will be at the highest quality.

Same can't be said for the toy manufactures. Would be out of line to say that maybe Mantell asked the Chinese to cut costs so there will be a higher profit margin?

For sure we can tell who comments are from Chinese people. cough* were not whinning, were just angry that China don't have the strength or dignity to win fairly. gymnastics was___ no comment words can't describe what went on there. And everyone knows there is no was those Chinese girls are 16 or are going to be that year. nope NO! All in all i don't see there being anything fixed for a while knowing how China uses their home advantage to far. Also how does a Country increase their medal count like 59% within one olympics. Sounds fishy to me. I am a US supporter but I also believe other countries besides the US should have recieved medals were the Chinese got.

These girls look no younger than Johnson, Liukin etc..... Are they underage?, I don't know. What I do know is that as a whole, girls in gymnastics do look younger. I work in EMS and notice that different races as a whole look either younger or older depending on the race. I'm of Chinese decent and people think I'm 10 years younger than I really am (31). In fact, a couple of guys at the station the other day commented that Shawn Johnson looks like she's 12.

What I do know is that there are a lot of people and a select few on this board who simply don't like China.

"They can and will lie, cheat, and falsify in order to win." Wow, you must be watching too much SportsCenter because this isn't the NFL and Bill Belichick. I've heard a lot of ignorant statements while working in the ghetto, but this one's a woozy. What facts are you basing this on, if any?

Perhaps it's not the Chinese who are xenophobic.

To AmericanBornChinese: Agree with your argument. If anyone has read Olympic coverage from Canada and UK, one would understand that the only "age-debate" is in this country since US lost. If IOC investigated before game began (or if US protested before the game began), we will be much better off. It seems laughable to protest after the fact since one lost the game.

Chinese government did not change in a matter of 16 days. It will do whatever it wants to do. But let's not forget that the Chinese gymnasts received gold metals because they were better. The rest is up to IOC.

IOC makes the rules. We should all abide by them. If IOC says the gymnasts are okay, why do we all argue about? Because we do not like the outcome and want to change the rule?

Something to think about when you watch the closing ceremony. It is a huge success. Ageless!!!

To Bo Jo: Read this (from Times) and you will understand.

It was the perfect end to a perfect Olympic Games for China as the Olympic flame was handed over to London in the grandeur of one of the world’s greatest stadiums this morning. As the memories of a sensational Games faded into memory, the Chinese nation was left to celebrate achieving its ultimate aim of heading the Olympic medals table for the first time in history.

Unless you are in the United States where, strangely, you will discover that Team USA remains the dominant force in world sport, yet again topping the medals table.

The race for the ultimate Olympic accolade is measured in medals, it just depends on which medals you decide to count. The International Olympic Committee issues its league table based on the number of golds won, which gives China the honours, but then admits that there is no official system in place to decide who is top dog. So the American public is reading tables counting the total number of medals, including silver and bronze, won at the Games. On that measure, the USA keeps the whip hand over the home nation.

You pays your money and takes your choice on this one, but the undeniable fact is that this has been China’s Games in every sense. A century ago at the 1908 Games in London - where Britain registered 145 medals, including 56 golds - China did not even field a team. In recent years, though, they have overtaken Russia and now loom in America’s sights. In Beijing, China contested almost every event and, even where they could not win medals, showed signs that they will be a formidable force in four years in London.

All they have to do is take an x-ray of the girls' hands. A trained radiologist can tell the difference between a 14 year old and a 16 year old (indeed, they can tell the difference between almost any age depending upon how the bones in the hand have developed). While there is obviously some variance, it's not really high enough to make a 15 year old look like a 13 year old; furthermore, if more than one girl was determined to be less than 15, it's a good bet the Chinese team cheated.

I don't know if cheating occurred here or not but for the record, I find that Chinese people have their ages mistaken all the time. I live in Canada and I am a 27 year old teacher but I've been mistaken for an elementary student many times by other teachers, parents, etc. I always feel like I have to work double hard and prove myself because I look young. Another example... my dad who is in his late fifties has been mistaken for someone in his twenties.

Also keep in mind that North American cultures have a different perception of 16 year olds...Gossip Girls, Dawson's Creek. So unless there's more proof other than they "look young" and some articles from the Internet, no one can conclusively say anything. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Personally, I do not like the Chinese government either and life is not always easy for the Chinese under the communist government but I think it's important to be fair and not judge so harshly so fast.

Just my thoughts...

If those girls were from Russia, the same controversy would have ensued and no charges of racism could be made.

If I were a gymnast from any country and was competing against people who are KNOWN in the gymnastics community to be underage, I would be pissed too.

what is irritating is that it is so obvious. look at them? To say that because they are Asian its normal that a "16 year old" looks as young as 12 is racist and insulting to everyone.

The FIG and IOC don't have the spine to stand up to China and point out the elephant in the room, which is major fraud and overt lies.

I'm sure that paperwork is as genuine as the Coach bags, Rolex Watches and copies of Vista that China also produces...they NEVER fake anything (rolling eyes...)

Even though I think the Chinese lied, let's face it..the age 16 rule is dumb. Gymnasts all start at the same age (very young) and keep going until they are done competing. Not allowing them to compete until they are 16 does not save any wear and tear, because they are still training as hard, but it actually makes it worse because it prolongs the period the time the gymnasts do have to train (until they are 16). It would be one thing if the rule was "you have to be 16, but you cannot begin training until 4 years before you participate" but that is not the case. Who pays a bigger price? A gymnast who starts at 5 and can call it a career at 14 or one who also starts at 5 and has to keep going until 16, when the body starts to fill out, become less limber, etc.

We do y'all suppose the age for the girls has been set at 16?

If Nastia had competed in Athens- she would've had a good shot at earning a few gold medals 4 years ago.

but... guess what...she was not 16 yet... so- oddly enough, she wasn't allowed to compete!

Age makes a huge difference in womens (lil girls) gymnastics- the peak age appears to be about 13, if you can only get them training 40 hours a week or more for 3 or 4 years before that....

The Chinese cheated... they are absolutely disgraced in the world- and should be banned from the next 4 years of international gymnastics competitions

There are no grey areas here.. its a black and white issue.

The Chinese should get everything they deserve-- most importantly the should suffer international embarrassment, so that they never try to cheat again (nor abuse young girls in this manner!)

er, that should read-
WHY do you suppose...

sorry-- I'm still seeing red over this (okay-- bad pun....)

American Sore Losers: China was cheating by using underage gymnasts
IOC: Do you have concrete proofs?
American Sore Losers: The articles in the net are proofs
IOC: They cannot be called concrete proofs
American Sore Losers: I don't care. They are cheaters.
IOC: Okay, to bring the closure to the matter, we will investigate further
American Sore Losers: Make sure that you declare they are cheaters after investigation
IOC: No, I need to investigate first
---
IOC: The papers look okay. They are not cheating
American Sore Losers: No, you are corrupt. They are cheaters
IOC: If you are not happy with my findings, why you joined the party (Olympics) arranged by me?
American Sore Losers: I joined your party to win more gold medals. When I lost, of course I was not happy.
IOC: Then you are sore losers!!!

Nice err...Chinglish there "Ken"...I wonder which part of the world you are from?

Look, China has cheated before...they admit it! (Yang Yun ring any bells?).

It only takes one lie to make you a "liar". The IOC (which is a business, with a lot of people that have fat salaries they want to protect) is of course going to say "nothing here to see!" and that will be that. Americans will really not care anyways...

Now if you will excuse me, I have to get back to watching all this Olympic Lip-Synching going on during the closing ceremonies...

Hi Big Tex,

I am from Singapore. Are your fellow American soldiers going to send B52 to bomb me because I did say something bad about American sore losers?

Anyway, you need to excuse me also, as I think there is no point to argue/debate with sore loser like you and your fellow Americans, as some of you are just losers who don't like the fact that American superpower status in Sports have been overtaken by China

I'm always a little afraid for the girl gymnasts, this is a very dangerous sport both physically and mentally, that's a couple reasons why all of us watch and I know I'm not alone here. But when that little girl walked out there three feet nothing, 60 lbs of pure guts, sparking her team along, I sat back and said; well I can't really say what I said. I don't know how old she is who cares, she was ten feet tall when it came to helping China win the gold. Let's all get over it please, and for heavens sakes, don't take her gold medal away, it's not her fault how ever old she is. Thanks He, you knocked our socks off.

One thing this issue has made clear: It's really impossible under this current system to be sure the gymnasts are the ages they claim to be. If you rely on documents that can be forged, then the age minimum is unenforceable. The IOC does not test for doping by asking the athletes to submit documents; they test blood, skin, and hair samples. Unless every gymnast is x-rayed or tested some other way as a matter of course, we'll probably see more underage gymnasts in future Olympics.

If the FIG and IOC really cares about this, they'd better find a way to deal with it now. Either amend the rule or institute some other system of proof that everyone can reasonably agree on.

To Ken: Your "American Sore Loser" argument falls apart in these ways:

1) The concerns about the Chinese gymnasts' ages were brought up weeks before the Games even started -- that is, before anyone "lost."

2) Russian, Ukrainian, and British gymnasts would also move up to take medals if those Chinese gymnasts end up being found ineligible. Therefore, it is not just a concern of the Americans.

A little critical thinking and logic goes a long way.

Some of the commentary misses the point its not about nationalism. The rules matter and the playing field should be level. Perhaps the US or Russia or Romania has a 14 or 13 year old gymnast that if competing could have equaled the Chinese performance. Ah we will never know because in this case these countries all followed the rules.
1. The rules were changed to require gymnasts to be 16 because of the risks involved in the training required to do the more difficult routines.
2. A gymnast who is less than sixteen is more flexible and lighter making it easier to do certain skills.
Hence a younger gymnast will find it easier to do some of the skills but will have greater risk of injury.
Current medical test can only estimate age within a two year window hardly of any help.
I doubt we will ever know the "truth" but I am concern that the message my teenages get is that cheating is ok and perhaps even rewarding.
Finally has anybody from either camp considered what will happen to these poor girls if it is proved that they are not sixteen. I think they will be devastated and think somehow they failed. Perhap the solution is not to strip them of their medals but to ban the chinese coaches from further olympic competitions but the reality may be they may have had little contol over the issue either.

If you don't trust documents submitted by the Chinese government, why trust the "evidence" found on Chinese government's website? If you were in charge of the FIG, how would you run the investigation?

The questions stem from discrepancies between the documents found on the Chinese government websites and their passports. For He Kexin, the documents (for 2005, 2006, and 2007) list her birthday as Jan. 1, 1994, but then her passport, issued this year, lists it as Jan. 1, 1992. China's most recent statement attributes this to a clerical error that occurred when He was transferred to the national team last year. But wouldn't that mean that the most recently listed 1992 birthday is wrong? I don't think this adequately explains the mistake, if indeed that's what it is.

FIG has to determine whether there is a plausible explanation for these discrepancies, because that's what spurred this inquiry in the first place. And it's not just for He Kexin; there are the same type of discrepancies for Yang Yilin's documents. It's hard to know what to believe and underscores why an age minimum is basically unenforceable.

What's perhaps more troubling (and has been brought up elsewhere) is that if the Chinese gymnasts are in fact all 16 years old, something has happened to severely delay their development. Chinese girls might be smaller on average compared to other ethnic groups, and they might "look" younger. But there's no evidence they enter puberty after age 16. Whether it's hard training, diet, or something more sinister, the health of the gymnasts must be taken into consideration. Maybe that's what everyone should be focusing on.

The fact is there could have been a number of countries with excellent 13-14 year olds who were not allowed to compete. Nastia was more than good enough four years ago but she had to wait and deal with growth spurts in the meanwhile. So if the Chinese girls were 14 then it wasn't a fair competition. Smaller, younger girls have the advantage and this is well known in the sport. So what if they were good enough to win?! Plenty of other girls from other countries who were too young could have been good enough to win too but followed the rules and are waiting four more years.

There is an rule about age for a reason though, and as it was broken as recovered documents online suggest the results this year are a sham. The US lost out but so did Russian, Romania, England, Japan...and the fans of gymnastics.

This is no different from doping, but with drugs they have up to eight years with advancing science to catch them and they do get caught. With China's kind of cheating they won't get caught though. But we wouldn't want to offend anyone, right?

All I have to say now is that they better pay attention to the ages of China's up and coming girls. It is ridiculous that these girls can pop up out of no where and the organization pretend not to know what age they had been registered under for three years in competitions.

What Americans do not understand is that this is not "cheating" in China. It is ok to beat the system by what ever means is necessary, and the age rules are part of the system. False papers are just papers, the important thing is that they have the right information, it does not have to be the truth.

After reviewing the current comments concerning the Chinese government cover up of their gymnist's ages, which several were quoted in a 2007 chinese press as 13 & 14 yrs old, I would think the Olympics would be the only sports event that actually enforces the rules. There must have been a reason to make rules everyone follows. If the age limit is 16 then the age limit is 16. Is the IOC president making an exception because china was the host country? If so then all host countries from now on should be able to enter any athlete at any age at all future Olympics.

I think US should go to war with China.

Afterall, it is a question of numbers. The number of medals.

If there is a scientific reason to the age limit, as many seem to claim......why was a 14-yr boy from UK allowed to compete in diving?

Diving, tumbling, just the same. Only landing in water instead of on land. And the psychological damage from compteing agains adults? The weight of the country's fan(atics) expectations on tender 14-yr young shoulders? What about that?

If there were medals given to the sport of whining, the united states would sweep every time.

Personally, I would let go of the issue.

I rather be beat by a 16-yr old than by a 13-yr old.

But then, I would not consider it a serious sport if a 40 lb child is better at it than a fully grown adult.

There is a movement to include jump rope and tiddly winks at the next olympics.

There should be an inquiry into the allegations that computer animation was used in the opening and closing ceremonies. How dare some third world country claim to put up extravagant shows in front of the entire world?

here's my take on it:
He Hexin (spelling?) is a phenominal athlete, regardless of whatever age she "is." I don't believe one bit that her age has anything to do with her winning. The whole argument is that she is under age, (in the world's opinion) which is against the rules - nothing else. Look at the gold vs silver medals when Nastia and the other gymnist "tied" for their routines. The chinese gymnist had more visible faults than Nastia, yet the score was a tie? I am leaning more towards judges being paid to fix the scores or something is being done for them to make them want to give the host country more gold medal wins. The Australian judge made it blatantly obvious. In the end, however, it is not a valid point to have the mindset of "well, since other countries cheated, so can china." if you get caught cheating you get stripped of your medals - end of story. China is notorious for falsifying documents, so i think this will never result in a satisfactory fashion.

The IOC and the FIG are powerless in this.
They have no authority to do a real investigation. The girls and the parents
know their true ages. With gold medals,
they are set up for life.
It's obviously not a big deal to the chinese as to whether they are following
this particular age rule.
Until they admit the truth any chinese
female gymnast should be banned from any
further international competition.

1. first of all, asia gene are different than euro-western gene. if you look at some of the chinese divers or Japanese gymnastic team during this olympic, both are about same height and weight compare to chinese gymnastic them.

just look at 1 of the divers,
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Athlete/3/235963.shtml

search for japan gymnasts profile result about same weight and height, and they are avg 19 years old

2. almost all athletes in china are from rural parts of china where access of nutrient rich food are diffcult to find, thus slower their baby/child growth. Most of the middle class or upper class chinese don't send their children to athlete school. But for rural farmers in china, this is a good chance for their children to get a free education, health care, chance to be in the olympics, and more.

3. the athletes for gymnastic/diving are handpick by coaches who often prefer small children to start with.

4. the diet for these athlete are controlled by the coach, that means no big mac, no KFC.

as result due to gene, where the athlete come from, how coaches pick their athlete, and their diet, the female gymnastic are usually pretty small compare to western gymnast.

As there is no scientific method to settle this dispute once and for all, China will never be able to prove they're 16, the rest the world will never be able to prove they're not. Let's just move on, ok?

Maybe the IOC and FIG should let the USAG conduct the investigation. Surely the USAG is not corrupt!

Not trying to be conclusive. Just want to point out the irony.

The document that the US hacker obtained to be considered as the indisputable evidence to prove the young girl's underage, is also produced and distributed by chinese government.

If the documents from chinese government are all lies, we should at least use one standard. If you want to trust some of them, you may as well trust some others.

You all are missing the important point:

Remember that string of perfect 10's that Nadia Comaneci put up in Montreal?

She was 14 years old at the time.

The rules that apply to EVERYONE are now that the gymnasts must be 16 by the end of the Olympic year.

How can you China supporters continue to advocate that the rules apply to EVERYONE except China?

Meanwhile, imagine just how soundly those little girls would've been defeated if American/Russian/Romanian 14 year olds had been in the competition.

Nadia.

No, you're are missing the important point, Georgetwoner:

No one has proven that the Chinese are underage.

Reply to Conspiracy:
The 16-year old diving champion (Chen Ruo Lin)is shorter and lighter than He Kexin :-P sorry, cant see ur point there!!!

OMG! I have to do an assignment on gynastics and i cant find anything!

To Steve Rose: You cannot prove anyone violating the law from evidence obtained illegally.

To Georgetwoner & Kathleen Winker: There is no conclusive evidence concluding that the Chinese gymnasts are underage. As a result, your argument provide zero value.

To Hilst: I could have won all 5 individual gymnastic gold metal when I was 3.

American Sore Losers: China was cheating by using underage gymnasts
IOC: Do you have concrete proofs?
American Sore Losers: Just look at them, they look like 10 year olds.
IOC: They cannot be called concrete proofs
American Sore Losers: The articles in the net are proofs
IOC: They cannot be called concrete proofs
American Sore Losers: How will you investigate then?
IOC: We will request documents such as passport and IDs.
American Sore Losers: The passports were issued by the Chinese Foreign Ministry! The identity card was issued by China's Ministry of Public Security! China is notorious for falsifying documents!
IOC: If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe? The Chinese government and the Chinese athletes must be respected.
American Sore Losers: They cheated, no respects needed.
IOC: They are innocent unless proven guilty. This concept of the presumption of innocence is one of the most basic in the most system of justice, including the US judicial system.
American Sore Losers: I don't care what is innocent unless proven guilty. We only applied that in US soil. We don't applied that presumption in Iraq. Thousand of Iraqi were in jail for years without trial.
IOC: But we need to be fair with everyone. Even though you don't want to respect others, that does not mean we don't respect others. You need to stop assuming that The Chinese gymnasts violated the rules.
American Sore Losers: Screwed you!

Problem isn't a lack of proof, problem is lack of willingness to address it. Many even acknowledge the duplicity but pass it off as "whining" by the US.

I'm sure they'd be just as understanding if the US won gold with a gymnastics team packed with participants our that own records proved were ineligible... and of course nobody'd mind if we began altering our past records or jerking them off the web while providing official docs that conveniently conflicted with years of previously published age verifications.

Face it... the Chinese gymnasts weren't the only ones at the games missing secondary sexual characteristics normally developed by a certain age. The IOC's Jacques Rogge and the FIG's Bruni have proven to be missing them as well.

The American gymnasts held their heads high at this Olympics. They handled themselves with dignity and fashion! They make me proud to say I'm American!!

All this talk concerning age takes away from the medals won by Nastia and Shawn. Remember we got gold from this competition. The American girls had no power over this situation and still performed well and received gold.

If the Chinese cheated then they will be judged whether anyone sees it or not!!! Everyone pays in some form or another for their indiscretions!

America has absolutely no right to point fingers at China when itself was viewed by the rest of the world as the mother of the biggest cheaters (G. Bush, B. Clinton, M. Jones, B. Bond, L. Armstrong, just to name a few).

Louis Armstrong was not a cheater...he played that trumpet like a god.

Louis Armstrong was not a cheater...he played that trumpet like a god

I didn't see any of the American girls (I guess women if you're old enough!)pointing any fingers!!!!

All the accusation of "China cheated" sounds like what Chinese government would say. After all, many of you have been accusing CHinese government lying, but can not proof it in the court of law. Expressing an opinion of your doubt is one thing; making it sound like fact is another. Remember 2002 Utah Olympic bribery scandal! should US be banned from Olympic forever? Are you really that much different from the one that you are accusing?

Remember Paul Hamm? He got the gold medal from a South Korean because a judge made a mathematical error. Yet the Americans refused to give it back. That is the classic example of a cheater.

if i were in the olypics we would not have this problem but i am not. so...if they have to cheat to win then we already know that we are better. and we need to know the truth.news people need to just say if it was a lie or truth because i dont understand all of stupid stuff. its either they cheated or they didnt.
(they cheated!)

As usually the US must find some excuse for being second best. Can't you all come to grips with the fact that the US sucks?

Many posts here have sentences like "the fact is that Chinese gymnasts
are under aged...", "I know for a fact that He Kexin is under aged
... ", etc. I have to ask you, what fact? what do you consider as
fact? The truth is, other than He Kexin's mother and her doctor, only
a handleful of people know He Kexin's exact birth date as a fact. Not
even Chinese Olympic officials know it as a fact, definitely neither
do you. Unless, you have a different definition of the word "fact".

"They look very young, no more than 13...", you said. It is well known
that slim and petite body has an advantage in gymnastics. With this
advantage, natually, top level gymnasts tend to have a smaller and
petite body than general average. To turn the table around, if you met
Shawn Johnson on the street, would you believe she's over 15? "But He
Kexin looks much younger than Shawn Johnson" you said. It is also well
known that Chinese woman have smaller body than american woman. A
couple of years ago there was a news in CNN reporting that a Chinese
American woman, being a district attoney, is still being asked for ID
when she wanted to buy a PG13 movie ticket. Shawn Johnson is selected
out from 300 million american people, He Kexin is selected out from
1.3 billion people, more standard deviation away. In fact I am
surprised that He Kexin does not looker younger. My point is, some
chinese girl appeared to be young in your eye, it does not
neccessarily mean that they are young.

"There are evidence that shows they are under aged...", What evidence?
"Documents digged out from internet...". Well, there are documents on
the internet that claim Roswell Aliens is coming out any day, the end
of the world is coming in two weeks, etc etc. Do you believe them?
"But they are from some Chinese government agency website...", Well,
you can also find documents from White House website that claim WMD
exist in Iraq, Do you trust that? "One way or the other, Chinese
government are liers...", American presidents are lieers, George W
Bush lied in front the whole world and Bill Clinton lied in court
under oath. All Government lies. Tell me something new.

"OK, I agree american government also lies. That's not the issue
here. The issue here is that there exist documents on Chinese official
site that contradict each other on the gymnasts' age, how do you
explain that, what are we supposed to believe". Good, now that I have
pull you down from your high moral horse, we can calmly discuss this
issue.

Ever since Beijing was selected to host the 2008 Olympics (back in
2001, seven years ago). China started to prepare for it. In
particular, they started to select kids to train for this Olympics.
They knew the 16 year age rule. Why would they want to select a 8 year
old instead of a 9+ year old kid to train? Please note at that time
they were not good gymnasts yet. There's no reason to spend a lot of
effort to train someone who would have age problem while there were
plenty of age qualified kids to choose from (remember there are 1.3
billion people in China). China has spent so much on this Olympis to
make it a success, why risk such little things. It's not as if China
is lcking of good gymnasts. If you know mandarine, here's a document
film that talks about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk8ZwHd2GA8
The document is 11 minutes long. Around 10 minute point in the film,
you will see the age of the kids being trained. One of them was Jiang
Yuanyuan, one of the 2008 Olympic gymnasts. The film was made in 2003,
you would not think Chinese government started to lie about these
girls age back in 2003.

"If that's true, how do you explain the birth date of He Kexin is
listed as 1/1/1994 in one of the government agency site?" First of
all, it is not the Chinese Olympic website. The story I heard (I don't
know this for a fact, but from various sources, I find it very
believable) is that in China's city games (competition among different
cities), there was a limit on the gymnasts' age. They have to be
between 13 and 15. Gymnasts who's above 15 are not allowed to
participate. He Kexin's local city want to use He Kexin to win medals
for the city and listed her as born in 1/1/1994. Later, some stupid
journalist who doesn't know better, boasted about young atheletes wins
medals, and also put something on some website. All of this have
generated several documents that had 1/1/1994 as He Kexin's birth
date, but we now know that's just the birthdate for the city
games. Chinese Olympic officials have shown to IOC He Kexin's true
birthday, alone with old films with her in it, her old passports (with
other country's visa on it) etc etc, and IOC feel convinced and thus
issued the statement.

"Even without the age problem, Chinese gymnast do not deserve some of
the golds, the judges were biased towards Chinese, they gold should be
Americans...." some of you said. I am not usre about that, and we
would never be sure if it is true or not. Any sports referenced by
human would have this problem. Suppose it is true, I would not be
surprised. It used to be the other way around. It used to be that
American athelets have tremendous advantage from biased jdges. In one
of the previous Olympics, Chinese diver Xiong Ni performed noticably
better than American diver Greg Louganis, but the judges favored
Louganis and he got the gold. Even Louganis himself later admits that
he felt lucky. Americans used to be respected and favored around the
world. However, time has changed. Ever since George W Bush became the
President, Americans reputation in the world has taken a big dive
(just like American dollars). Americans are hated in many parts of the
world. Don't blame the judges, blame George Bush. :)

My suggestion to you is: Let go. Move on to some more important
issues. Issues like human right (e.g. why did Americans invaded Iraq
and violate Iraqies human right), or Energy crisses (e.g. why does US
emits half of the Car-Caused greenhouse gas globally when its
population is less than 1/20th of the world) etc etc.

Have a good day.