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Tie Goes to Chinese Gymnast in Uneven Bars

Nastia Liukin's bid for a second gold medal fell short by an inconceivably narrow margin Monday after the recently crowned Olympic all-around champion received the exact same score as China's He Kexin for her uneven-bar routine.

Both gymnasts finished with 16.725 points in the apparatus final, held at National Indoor Stadium. And the panel of judges arrived at their scores in the same way, awarding both Liukin and He a "start value" of 7.7 and an execution score of 9.025. Added together, that makes 16.725.

But the gold went to He, and the silver to Liukin under an obscure tiebreak provision that left the gymnasts confused and U.S. officials scrambling for an explanation even as the medal winners marched onto the floor for the medal ceremony.

(Here's a full explanation of the tiebreaker)

He's teammate on the gold-medal Chinese women's team, Yang Yilin, took bronze (16.65).

For decades, duplicate Olympic medals were awarded when gymnasts' scores were knotted after the final stage of competition. But after the 1996 Atlanta Games, the International Federation of Gymnastics introduced a tiebreak policy that spells out six computations (to be used in a specific order) to settle ties.

On Monday, He and Liukin remained tied after the first tiebreak was computed.

The second computation finally separated the scores, with He prevailing because three of the four judges whose scores counted among a panel of six judges (after the highest and lowest scores were tossed) took fewer deductions for her execution (an average of 0.933 points) than comparable judges deducted for Liukin's execution (0.966 points).

"Honestly, it's nothing I can control," said Liukin, 18, asked if she felt the tiebreak rules should be made simpler. "It's been pretty fair to me. I've got the biggest medal in gymnastics there is."

Earlier at the Beijing Games Liukin won gold in the individual all-around, silver in the team competition and bronze on the floor exercise. With four Olympic medals in hand, she'll seek a fifth Tuesday on the balance beam.

He is among the three Chinese gymnasts whose age has been a source of controversy in recent weeks. Listed as 16, reports have stated her age as young as 14.

By Liz Clarke  |  August 18, 2008; 10:26 AM ET
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And the "obscure tie-break provision" is...?

Did the rest of the story get lost in editing?

Posted by: More Cowbell | August 18, 2008 8:15 AM | Report abuse

Surely this isn't the entire article. Where is the remainder?

Posted by: Carolyn Harris | August 18, 2008 8:29 AM | Report abuse

Yeah... come on WP... give us the full story... what's the "obscure tie-break provision?"

Posted by: More Cowbell Too | August 18, 2008 8:39 AM | Report abuse

according to nbc olympics, He won due to less execution deductions being applied to her score. but since both gymnasts' start value was even, and they ended up with the same score, wouldnt that mean they ended up with the same number of execution deductions? it makes no sense to me. maybe someone else has a better knowledge of this and can clarify things but it smells pretty fishy to me. just another item to add to the list of controversy with these olympics imo

Posted by: rueben | August 18, 2008 8:42 AM | Report abuse

If US Gymnastics protests those younger girls being in the events to begin with - and there's plenty of proof to do so - then it won't matter. The US would get gold here and in the team event.

Posted by: Ken | August 18, 2008 8:46 AM | Report abuse

Liukin was the second to compete and performed a routine with the same level of difficulty as He's routine. However, six Score B judges found more flaws with her performance and she was ranked behind He despite having the same overall score.

6 judges give scores, only the middle 4 count into averages. when the 4 middle counts are the same, the other two (highest and lowest) scores are put into consideration.

Posted by: zak | August 18, 2008 8:51 AM | Report abuse

The tie-break provision is NOT obscure at all. see the above post.

Posted by: zak | August 18, 2008 8:55 AM | Report abuse

thanks zak ;]

Posted by: rueben | August 18, 2008 9:08 AM | Report abuse

Thanks,Zak. Wow.

Posted by: gary | August 18, 2008 9:09 AM | Report abuse

I mean

Posted by: gary | August 18, 2008 9:10 AM | Report abuse

The gymnastic world seems plagued by arbitrary regulations. What is wrong with ties? Why shut out the best through an arbitrary age requirement? Other Olympic sports seem to allow younger participants if they are the most competitive.

Posted by: dnjake | August 18, 2008 9:19 AM | Report abuse

Oh so basically the tiebreaker involved the highest and lowest scores were the one looked at. I get it, so the Chinese judge was biased. Ok, so long as its clear. A tie breaker should be both girls have to repeat the routine and the one that does better under pressure wins!!!!

Posted by: NIna | August 18, 2008 9:28 AM | Report abuse

The post by zak is not accurate.
The extremes were taken out first. If they remained tie after the two most extremes were taken out, then the next extreme was crossed out, then the third...etc.
In this case, the tie was broke after three extremes were excluded.

Posted by: kei | August 18, 2008 9:43 AM | Report abuse

I think the most interesting thing about these Olympics and the one I have yet seen anyone blog about is why the IOC has yet to release the contract signed between the IOC and Beijing. This being the first time in modern Olympic history that the IOC has done so. What is in the contract that the IOC is so afraid to reveal? Medal count,maybe?

Posted by: James | August 18, 2008 9:44 AM | Report abuse

Tie-breaks are by nature arbitrary. Leaving a tie makes more sense. That, or a complete do-over.

And this isn't nearly as bad as the other Chinese girl falling to her knees on the vault and still medaling. That's ridiculous.

Posted by: Herndon | August 18, 2008 9:46 AM | Report abuse

The entire gymnastics competition and how it has been judged during these Olympics has left a sour taste in my mouth :(

Posted by: KipNfLip | August 18, 2008 9:47 AM | Report abuse

Yes, the scoring in these Olympics do always seem skewed to the Chinese, do they not? I know the home country does not have an "advantage" since the judges are from all over, but has anyone ever heard of BRIBERY? Does anyone really think the power mad Chinese govt did not approach these judges?

They aren't very subtle about it. In all around one of the Chinese got the same score as Shawn Johnson on balance beam, despite significantly more flaws, balance checks. In all around on uneven bars, again, the Chinese beat Liukin's score, despite the Chinese taking a large step on the landing.

And if you needed any more proof...just look at the individual vault final...where the Chinese fell on her butt and still medaled over Alicia Sacramone, who had two very good vaults (yes I understand the Chinese had higher start value, but she fell on her butt, again).

Bribed judges have gotten smarter...they aren't outright throwing it for someone, but they are nudging the Chinese with higher scores and ticking the Americans for inexplicable deductions.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 9:50 AM | Report abuse

So, the two scores (high and low) that are tossed out in order to give at least the appearance of objectivity to a subjective and often politcally biased scoring system are brought back in to resolve a tie? That's ridiculous. Why not award the gold to whoever had the higher score in the All-Around?

Posted by: Darla | August 18, 2008 9:51 AM | Report abuse

Yeah, so the Chinese cheat.
I'm not really giving much credence to these results.

They have embarrassed themselves repeatedly by cheating the rules, cheating the judging and acting like ill-mannered hicks.

Did anyone else catch the Chinese crowds during the archery competitions, whistling and screaming during opposing archers flights? Strangely none of the other countries fans saw fit to mimic the incredibly rude and rowdy fans, and of course organizers did nothing to stop it or to remove offending fans from the stadium.

All the nice slave labor and european architects built some nice stadiums, but China was clearly not ready for prime time.

Posted by: rondaldo | August 18, 2008 9:51 AM | Report abuse


Posted by: jk | August 18, 2008 9:56 AM | Report abuse

I've never seen such blatant partiality in Olympic scoring. If they award duplicate medals for silver and bronze, why not for gold? And Alicia was robbed for sure. She did a clean routine and was beaten by someone who not only fell twice, but stepped out of bounds. I thought the new system was supposed to prevent cheating. It's evidently not working. The Gymnastics Federation needs to address this now.

Posted by: Jan | August 18, 2008 9:58 AM | Report abuse

And I love how every article I read on this says "it's too hard to explain the rules." Really? If no one can understand it, maybe they are absolutely unfair and terrible. What a joke. And don't forget that He is only 14 years old.

Posted by: bigeugene | August 18, 2008 9:59 AM | Report abuse

How quickly this rule was enforced for a tie breaker yet the IOC does not seem interested in the rule that only allows only 16 years and older athletes to compete. Despite the overwhelming evidence that certain members of the Chinese team don't meet the requirement. The rule was implemented so world class pressure was not put upon children in both practice and on the stage.

Posted by: PK | August 18, 2008 10:01 AM | Report abuse

how so very funny... Nastia loses the gold to a young girl... a young girl that the evidence clearly shows is 14 and 8 months old.. To young to even be completing.. The US womens team loses the Gold.. for the same reason..

Tie Breaks.. ok.. when they apply to Athletes that fulfill the qualifying rules set forth but the federations and the IOC...

The IOC accepted the young girls Chinese Passport.. and then goes on the say... They are not responsible to confirm all 10,000 entrants... how so very odd...and yet they will spends millions Testing for Drugs...

Cheating is only cheating when you are caught... It can easily be said that cheating is a part of any game.. regardless of the self proclaimed saints among us.. The Difference here...

CHINA WAS CAUGHT... and the IOC HAS FAILD in their duties as the Governing Olympic Body... The IOC credibility has been seriously damaged... almost irreparably so... Favoritism to the Host Country is no excuse.. The IOC has a job to do... in short..

To the best of their ability.. Conduct and Insure the Highest Quality and the Fairest Competitions Possible...

If they truly believe in the seriousness of Doping as a tool of cheating... they should also be as serious to forms of cheating..

Judges honesty...
Age requirements
Uniform and equipment conformity
etc etc etc...

Steadily the IOC has in fact damaged its own credibility.. this is not isolated to this Olympics... this has been brewing for several of the past Olympics...

And still the IOC places itself above it own rules...

By turning a blind eye, for failing to demand the proper investigations into this matter. The IOC has hoped into bed with every cheater.. They are no better.. if fact they are worse... Because the IOC has no real Oversight.... They are the final authority... Above their own rules.. how perfect is that....

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 10:02 AM | Report abuse

I can't say I think the Chinese girls cheated in any of these events...but with the possible rule-breaking controversy, the wacky scoring during all around finals (for EVERYONE, not just the Chinese team), the fall on vault still resulting in a medal, the tie-breaker...these things are, for the most part, able to be explained away. However, they still do leave a certain bitterness and feeling of "it doesn't matter how I do, there will be some rule that will allow someone else to win."

Rather than blame the Chinese team, I wish FIG would seriously re-think some of these awful standards and rules it has put into place. Minimum age? Why? With a minimum age limit, we'd have no Nadia in 76. No Shannon Miller in 92. Moceanu would never have had her time to shine, since she was never really able to get back in the spotlight after her young games in Atlanta. These are just a few easy- and mostly American- examples. Why should gymnasts have their heyday cut short (or gotten rid of altogether) in a sport that usually has a small enough window as it is? Current 33-year-old medalists excluded, of course (amazing!).

And a tie-breaker? Again, why? I don't think any previous medalists were left complaining because they had to share the podium. Ridiculous. A score is a score. Judges total it for a reason. Gymnastics is supposed to be a combination of many things, and it is silly to decide that mistakes are worth more than execution points, or this is worth more than that, or your difficulty and artistry may be the same but this factor is different...the judges took ALL of this into consideration and awarded the girls the same score. I find these rules absurd, and they are really ruining the sport for me.

Posted by: Kirsten | August 18, 2008 10:09 AM | Report abuse

The biggest controversy isnt really the age of the tweens on the China team - it is about why the network is showing the gymnastics (long the favorite of little girls) AFTER ELEVEN THIRTY AT NIGHT!!! My nieces havent seen a gymnastics event YET this Olympics! I myself have been coming in to work late because of my 11:30-2:00 a.m. fixation!

I'm hoping DISNEY is torqued enough to sue for a refund - nothing is stupider than showing a "Beverly Hills Chihuahua" preview at TWO A.M.!!! (exept for maybe being over 40 and having to WATCH that preview to get to the end of the competition in the wee hours of the morning!)

The network is hollering about how high the ratings have been because of Michael Phelps...but they would have been even HIGHER if the gymnastics had been on when its core demographic would actually had been able to WATCH it!

Posted by: Tunatofu | August 18, 2008 10:14 AM | Report abuse

Basically, the Post delights in minimizing US losses. Yesterday, the headline for much of the day was the US protest of the track event, not the Jamaican sweep. The protest was completely unfounded, of course, and was ruled out almost immediately. Just like the Post doesn't have a medals table, it has a "medal count". So US bronzes count the same as Chinese gold. The rest of the world, and much of the US, goes by total gold medals first.

Posted by: Gary | August 18, 2008 10:18 AM | Report abuse

This is exactly why gymanstics is not a sport - it is nothing more than an athletic exhibition. Judges. What a pathetic joke. Give me a clock or a scoreboard. No judges to settle anything there.

Posted by: The obscure tie-breaker provision | August 18, 2008 10:18 AM | Report abuse

The scoring in gymnastics this Olympics is making the Ice Skating judges look like geniuses. What a joke.

Posted by: CMc62480 | August 18, 2008 10:20 AM | Report abuse

I think most people think the 16 year old age limit is stupid and should be lowered to 14. But the point is, 16 is the rule this year, and the Chinese clearly violated that rule.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 10:22 AM | Report abuse

I wish I could add a picture here. It would be the head of the IOC sucking Mao D@#K. Pathertic.

Posted by: askgees | August 18, 2008 10:22 AM | Report abuse

For this age thing, there is nothing US or anyone else can prove.
First, looking younger is no way to prove age, because Asian people look younger in general. At the same time, the girls that do gymnastics generally look shorter and younger than the general population. And finally, they take some form of age-suppresant.

Second, as for this so called prove above an online article showing age being 14, that doesn't prove anything either. In many parts of China, you don't get birth certificates or documentation when you were born. So, you can easily register for a younger age in a provincial trial and then have your age corrected when selected for national team. Point being, there is no way to prove that the age on those internet articles are correct either.

Posted by: Feng | August 18, 2008 10:25 AM | Report abuse

Any sport where the winner is judged rather than measured (speed, weight, etc.) is inherently open to bias and pressure. This year's gymnastics don't seem to be any more controversy-riddled than they have been for any Olympics I've watched. I simply watch to see some amazing and beautiful performances and don't worry about the scores. Probably puts me in the minority (certainly on this post), but it makes for a less stressful evening.

Posted by: agm | August 18, 2008 10:26 AM | Report abuse

The Olympics have turned into nothing more than a marketing franchise. The rules are routinely ignored or, if they are enforced, it is in such a tardy way that the medals are tainted (the Canadian skate couple in Utah) or the rules are changed to enhance the franchise. The Olympics started out to encourage international relations through the competition of amatuers representing their countries. The people that market the Olympics wanted to have more big names so they changed the rules so that Serena and Venus Williams and professional basketball players can compete. Even Michael Phelps had $5 million dollars in endorsements before the game. There is nothing wrong with that but he sure isn't an amatuer. And what kind of international competitive sport is beach volleyball for crying out loud?

Posted by: Amazonia1 | August 18, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

This is exactly why I prefer Swimming, Track & Field, & real Team sports over Gymnastics. I respect what Gymnasts can do in they're sport, buy we all know how the judges can take medals away from athletes simply by interpreting someone's execution of a routine as superior (favored). With swimming & track, the judge's effect on the competition is minimal. The clock & the tape are the real judges. With Team sports, it's simply "my best can beat your best." Baseball & softball are discontinued while we get Sychronized Diving? Puhleeez!

Posted by: James | August 18, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

The only thing that smells is the odor produced by the repugnant behavior of certain people when their favorite athlete loses - I would not call them sore losers as they never compete, the competitors are not complaining, it is more like the ugly Americans.

"... asked if she felt the tiebreak rules should be made simpler. ' It's been pretty fair to me. I've got the biggest medal in gymnastics there is.' "

One thing that struck me was how these athletes competed against each other and yet embraced each one and cheered for each other regardless of what country they were representing.

Posted by: zemo | August 18, 2008 10:27 AM | Report abuse

When it comes to USA losing a match, there will always be a pretty bunch of American sore losers. Nevertheless, keep complaining then. The fact is that Gold still belongs to China. Not happy? Don't participate and watch Olympics. Other countries will be very happy to get the medals from US, if Americans don't like the way IOC and Olympics work.

Posted by: Ken | August 18, 2008 10:28 AM | Report abuse

Until the corruption and incompetence is resolved, the "judged" sports should be barred from the Olympics. Boxing is straight up corruption, and gymnastics and ice skating are either corrupt, bias, or incompetent.

Posted by: AWWNats | August 18, 2008 10:30 AM | Report abuse

Hello Tunatofu - some of the gymnastics have been shown live. There is a 12 hour time difference between here and china. Ever heard of DVR/Tivo/VCR? Just tape it and have your kids watch it later if they're so interested. Geez!

Posted by: Tuna is not tofu, duh. | August 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Report abuse

I can't wait to see Bella flip out over this issue on TV tonight! He's AWESOME!

Posted by: VM | August 18, 2008 10:34 AM | Report abuse

The Chinese are huge homers (as are we, the Russians, the Brits, and just about every other nation) so ties in judged events should be expected to drift towards the home team. Of course, Liukin could win it back once the IOC is away from the long arm of the Chinese government and takes a serious look at the age of Ms. He and the others. Really, she'd be a late-bloomer even if she was 14.

C'mon, China, you're too big to cheat. Or maybe not.

Posted by: samson151 | August 18, 2008 10:35 AM | Report abuse

I don't understand why the IOC feels it necessary to implement gender tests to verify that female competitors have the correct genitalia but it is somehow unable to verify a competitors age when there is an age cut off.

Posted by: Matt | August 18, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

The host country is always favored. Don't ask me why, since the judges are international. But don't tell me that the U.S. team didn't also get a boost in 1984 and 1996.

Posted by: Fred | August 18, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

I really look down some people's personality who do not have a sportsmanship. When losing they tried to find whatever they can find to save their face. Stop whinning

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 10:36 AM | Report abuse

If u guys were the judges, all the olympic medals will go to american

Posted by: hahaha | August 18, 2008 10:37 AM | Report abuse

Gymnastics' new code of points went into effect after judging controversies rocked the Athens 2004 Games. (This is the Paul Hamm affair so blame him.) The new code was ratified in late 2005 and was first implemented in 2006.

A complete score is now made up of two parts, A and B.

The first, the A score, or the start value, is an assigned degree of difficulty.

In this instance, both He and Liukin had the same start value, 7.7.

The second part of a score, the B score, is an execution score.

Six judges vote.

The high and the low are tossed per the rules.

That leaves four scores.

Those four are averaged.

That average becomes the B score.

Add the A and B together and you get a complete score.

In this instance, both He and Liukin got 16.725.

Thus: onto tiebreakers.

The first tiebreak is the B score.

Here both got the same B score, 9.025.

The next tiebreak: the judges drop the next highest deduction.

That obviously leaves three judges' scores instead of four -- or to be precise, the marks those three judges gave for deductions.

Here, the average of those three judges' deductions for He: .933.

For Liukin: .966.

Liukin had a greater deduction.

Thus she was second.

Another way of getting to that math: Take the B scores of the three judges from that second tie-break, add them together and divide by three.

The math for He: 9.1, 9.1, 9.0. That equals 27.2. Divide that by three, and that equals 9.066, the sixes stretching out to infinity.

For Liukin: 9.1, 9.0, 9.0. That equals 27.1. Divide that by three and it's 9.0333, the threes going out forever.

Thus Liukin was second. This is an absolutely fair result. Puh-leez, there wouldn't be all this sour grapes, I'm sure, if Liukin had come in first.

Posted by: Archie | August 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Odder yet, if they'd remained tied after the six computations, the next round would begin with a runner on third and Michael Phelps pitching to Yao Ming.

Posted by: Audentes | August 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Report abuse

Send out all your B52 to bomb all judges... Let Americans be judges, then your American teams can definitely get all the medals!!!

Posted by: Ken | August 18, 2008 10:43 AM | Report abuse

to Ken, i can't agree with you more.

Posted by: Vincent | August 18, 2008 10:49 AM | Report abuse

Anyone griping about the judging in these Olympics fail to realize this is as time honored a tradition in judged sport. Remember the East Bloc judging from the Cold War, the fiasco in the Utah games, and, for my money, the worst transgression-Roy Jones losing his bout to a Korean in Seoul '88 (which changed the scoring system almost single-handedly). Also, some countries get favored judging on Reputation-for years Cuban boxers and Soviet Gymnasts got preferential scoring, now its Chinese Divers & Gymnasts.

Posted by: James | August 18, 2008 10:50 AM | Report abuse

First of all, Bella will DEFINATELY go nuts over this one. Secondly, it's not a secret the rest of the world hates Americans and will go at lengths to find a way to take us down. It's amazing we've won as much as we have. If this gets reversed and we have double gold, then we'll know things are even.

Posted by: JM | August 18, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

Had the US team won gold in the team competition and won gold in their individual apparatus then the age of the Chinese gymnast would not have even come up. It's all bad sportmanship and sore loser. Finding something to blame for their failure. The judges are international and not from the host country. Olympic and World event judges have always been international.

Posted by: Aeldas | August 18, 2008 10:56 AM | Report abuse

ties stand at world championships. The IOC forced the FIG to break ties at the olympics.

The judging here has been wonky, to say the least. Its also exposed some fairly serious flaws (flaws that those of us in the gymnastics ocmmunity were well aware of even before the system was put into place) in this new and supposably "improved" scoring system.

Posted by: Birdie | August 18, 2008 10:58 AM | Report abuse

I am disgusted at the Chinese and feel that our olympians along with the rest of the olympians from other countries were dealt a raw deal. The Chinese just cheated and made sure their stars got gold. Although the American teams did falter, doesn't change the fact that the Chinese are nothing but a bunch of cheaters who care about nothing other than winning. I feel sorry for the Chinese athletes who must feel like their wins come with foul stench. So for me to read this article, only adds to the fuel that they're nothing but cheaters and they will do anything to win, even steals the dreams of athletes around the world. China can go to h!

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 11:01 AM | Report abuse

Judging in gymnastics is, by nature, subjective. It's more of an art. Would have been better if joint gold medals were given out to both of them.

If you watched the event, you would know for sure that the bronze medal winner, Yang Yilin, and Beth Tweddle, the British gymnast in fourth place performed better than the first two. Yilin had a better dismount than Kexin or Liukin, with the same difficulty. And Beth had the highest difficulty and very good dismount as well.

Liukin may have been marked down, but Yilin should have won the gold medal. Even Liukin was looked surprised when Yilin's score was announced.

Posted by: jim | August 18, 2008 11:06 AM | Report abuse

The controversy over the actual ages of the Chinese gymnasts detract from the public viewing of the sport.

As mentioned before, Chinese tend to look younger than their American counterparts. While this is a generalized statement, it nonetheless should be considered. In addition, practicing gymnastics often leads to stunted growth. Compared to those who do not practice the sport, it is no wonder that the Chinese gymnasts appear too young. However, I do acknowledge that there may be reasonable doubt remaining, particularly due to the opinion expressed by Bela Kayroli (please excuse my spelling), since he has a great amount of experience in coaching gymnastics for the past few decades.

However, I personally find all the bickering during the competition quite unsportsman-like. When the Chinese perform, the commentators constantly refer to the age controversy and do not mention the technical elements of the routine as often. There seems to be a constant accusatory tone from the commentators in between routines. While food-for-thought and controversy is wonderful for keeping the viewers excited, doesn't that just make the Olympics a stomping ground for media, instead of a place of athletic competition?

Finally, perhaps a remedy to the scoring issues that have arisen during these Games: Instead of only showing the final score for each routine, the specific deductions, in addition to the start value and the exhibition score should be shown, so viewers will be able to see at exactly what time the deductions were taken off. Ultimately, the judging will still be subjective, but at least it will be easier to justify and will leave less people confused.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

So He's on first...


He Who?
No, He Kexin.

Kicking What?

He Kexin.

I said, Kicking what?...

etc. etc... ;-)

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 11:07 AM | Report abuse

Silly, the tie-breaker goes to the younger participant ...

Posted by: Senjata | August 18, 2008 11:10 AM | Report abuse

i guess if nastia would have won the tie breaker then no one will say anythin abt the rules .... you have to accept the decision ...she hasnt had her luck this time :)

Posted by: judge123 | August 18, 2008 11:12 AM | Report abuse

i've been watching the gymnastics, both mens and womens, and i've said since the beginning there is something fishy going on. i get the whole tie-breaker thing, but its BS and shouldn't have been a tie at all. Liukin was definitly better. Even so, anyone else that has been watching all the events see something as well? An American would do near perfect on a routine, then a chinese would take steps on the dismount, or step out of bounds, but since the chinese had a higher difficutly they would win. and they would take less deductions off of the execution because "it was harder".....if its a harder trick, and you can't pull it off, don't do it. i'm telling you, i think something is up, and has been since the beginning. and don't even waste your time tryin to convince me those chinese girls are 16.....that's garbage. just like the story of that little girl who "sang" at the opening ceremony. the real singer "didn't have the right look they wanted, so they just took her voice"......back to gymnastics, i cann agree with the floor exercise results though. that girl, from somewhere??!?!, did a perfect routine. and the judges were taking a while, because they were like, "uh-oh, we are trapped, we want the chinese to medal, but we can't give her a low score, because the audience will know!!!!" well, thats china for ya. some of the chinese athletes are insanely good, ill give them that, but they are now officialy in my mind, plagued with cheater-syndrome.....i made that one up. peace! and thanks for reading my rant!

Posted by: Fletch | August 18, 2008 11:13 AM | Report abuse

Feng, I wish I could show you the World Cup competition where the Chinese were BRAGGING about how their 13 year old beat the Americans. That was in Stuttgart Germany back in November - do you really believe that she could age THREE YEARS in EIGHT MONTHS?

She can't! They dont LOOK YOUNG, THEY ARE YOUNG! Being Asian has nothing to do with it - the Chinese Gov has faked documents to ensure that their very best athletes are eligible to compete. Sure they could probably round up many 16 year olds (eligible) to put on the team but then they didnt win events at the World Cup and might get completely shut out by the visiting teams.

Dont kid yourself.

Posted by: Tunatofu | August 18, 2008 11:15 AM | Report abuse

Oh, and I like Liukin's statement,

"Honestly, it's nothing I can control," said Liukin, 18, asked if she felt the tiebreak rules should be made simpler. "It's been pretty fair to me. I've got the biggest medal in gymnastics there is."

Haha. She's basically like, I could care less, I kicked their a*s in the all-around...haha.

Posted by: Fletch | August 18, 2008 11:17 AM | Report abuse

I have said it before and I will say it again. The measure of a man or woman, is not how they handle winning, it is how they handle defeat.
So far Johnson and Luiken have handled defeat with honor. Unlike the vast majority of cry babies on this board.
I would be estactic if I was good enough to win a silver medal in any sport!

Posted by: DW | August 18, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

If there was a way to give it to the Chinese it would happen.

You had to realize that when the Chinese were able to successfully lie about the girl's age.

The Olympics should get rid of all "sports" where the winner is determined by what judges say. You must remember judges have been bribed in the past.

Posted by: William | August 18, 2008 11:18 AM | Report abuse

What do you expect when the competition was held in China? Cheng Fei felt on her knee during the vault competition but she still got a medal - Liukin should be happy that she still got a medal. Liukin's father indicated that they are not planning to protest the result. That's a very wise decision. He was from Soviet Union he knows better than anyone in this situation. Protest the result? It only won't do any good. Bear in mind that China "technically" is still a communist country.

Posted by: New Chinese | August 18, 2008 11:19 AM | Report abuse

AGAIN...there iS NO PROOF that she is underage! CHINESE ppl look smaller and younger than ppl from the thick/fat/obese country america is. i'm chinese but have lived in america my whole life, yet ppl still tell me i look 16 when i'm really 22. it's not that odd for a chinese girl to literally look 5-6 yrs younger than what she really is. get over it people. the tie-breaker seems fair to me. you win some you lose some. big deal. if liukin had won the tiebreaker none of you would be complaining about it. everytime the U.S loses, you all go blaming it on cheating or bribery. alicia sacramone fell off the beam, then followed it up with a big fall on her butt on the floor at team finals...but U.S still should have won gold right? oh of course. china must have totally paid sacramone to fall. and i don't see what's so unfair about vault. cheng fei may have screwed up her 2nd vault landing, but her first one was phenomenal, which already had a start value much higher than sacramone's. sacramone had much lower start values, and neither of them was extremely excellent...just decent. so stop whining. as long as the U.S loses, everything is unfair to you all.

Posted by: Iris | August 18, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Medal count is for sticklers.

At the Olympic level, I don't think a gold medal is absolutely necessary to prove your worth to yourself.

That said, China winning a large number of gold medals shouldn't be so much of a concern. They have the largest population of any country. In a completely random sample, they should get the largest number of medals.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

He is 16.
And I'm Mickey Mouse.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 11:20 AM | Report abuse

Thanks for spoiling the results of this before all of us in the USA could watch this on TV!

Posted by: PowerBarDC | August 18, 2008 11:21 AM | Report abuse

what's that you said about sacramone? why are you asking questions you already know the answer to? we aren't on here discussing or complaining about sacramone not getting the gold. she sucked. she did terrible. and the age-issue, is definitly a worthy topic to bring up. i think they should have interviewed one of them afterwards, like immediatly after, and asked them in chinese, "wow, you did amazing. and your only 14?" and just looked for a response.....i bet you'd get a pause, or the truth.....

Posted by: Fletch | August 18, 2008 11:25 AM | Report abuse

It is obvious that the Chinese are just cheating wildly to up their medal count. The Chinese are great at cheating, and this Olympics will go down as the greatest cheating Olympics of all.

Posted by: POed Lib | August 18, 2008 11:25 AM | Report abuse

Get rid of the Olympics. A huge waste of money, resources, and, most of all, political hypocrisy and posturing.

Posted by: Mike, Newbury Park, Ca. | August 18, 2008 11:27 AM | Report abuse

AWWNats, you are correct. I've watched boxing and the judging there is atrocious. Makes the gymnastics judging seem fair.

For those of you who think it's just Americans complaining, you should be on your knees thanking us for having the balls to complain. The victims of this nonsense aren't only Americans.

Posted by: 1FastHoo | August 18, 2008 11:33 AM | Report abuse

Honestly, quit blaming the Chinese gymnasts. The age limit is in place to protect gymnasts from being pushed too hard in their youth.

It is virtually impossible for an uninvolved viewer to ascertain anyone's age, especially without access to private documents. The only way to end this age issue in the future would be a major overhaul of the Chinese bureaucracy.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 11:34 AM | Report abuse

Lets stop and think how the Chinese kids will grow up...They lied to win. the IOC is saying this is okay....They think winning is everything sad but true to them.....After all they made tainted toys and sent them to the USA...................

Posted by: anonymous | August 18, 2008 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Like I said, I could tell something was going on. Even the commentators were saying things like, "that score should not be that low". And not just for America, for other countries as well. They do tend to glamorize the Chinese team, but they still know when something isn't fair.

Posted by: Fletch | August 18, 2008 11:36 AM | Report abuse

I'm sure the truth will have an impact on all parties involved--even if it never comes out into the light.

I'm sure even they have consciences.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 11:39 AM | Report abuse

maybe the tie-break should go to the one who actually meets the Olympic requirement to be at least 16...

Posted by: thought | August 18, 2008 11:40 AM | Report abuse

To all who are upset by the gymnastics "results" - do you tune in to watch the gymnasts, or to watch the judges? The routines are beautiful no matter how they are scored. Why care who "wins"?

Posted by: Huh? | August 18, 2008 11:40 AM | Report abuse

there is no obscurity when it comes to the age requirement--unless you are from China

Posted by: and | August 18, 2008 11:41 AM | Report abuse

So how exactly would the FIG verify the age of the Chinese gymnasts? You can't rely on their birth certificates or other form of govt. issued ID. If the Chinese govt. can change their passports, what would keep them from changing other documents?

So to everyone who keeps yelling about this, how could you verify their age? Obviously "judging" them just by looks is not a good method.

Posted by: Mark | August 18, 2008 11:41 AM | Report abuse

What would have been wrong in having a tie and giving them both gold medals? "For decades, duplicate Olympic medals were awarded when gymnasts' scores were knotted after the final stage of competition. But after the 1996 Atlanta Games, the International Federation of Gymnastics introduced a tiebreak policy that spells out six computations (to be used in a specific order) to settle ties." Does anyone know why they changed things?

Posted by: Neil | August 18, 2008 11:42 AM | Report abuse

Maybe there just shouldn't be a tie-break if we're all going to keep arguing about it. Besides, who wins doesn't really matter. It's not just competing against other people, but competing against yourself as well.

Although there's bound to be people arguing for a tie-break if there isn't one. :P

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 11:44 AM | Report abuse

F gymnastics and Diving.

How dumb is that you can submit a really difficult routine and totally screw it up and get a higher score than someone who does a difficult routine and nails it. This is why these events are ridiculous. It is based on perception as opposed to actual talent.

I quit watching when it was apparent the Chinese would do these difficult routines and fall, but still get real high scores and beat out other countries who nailed their routines. Falling on your butt during a vault landing should be a 2pt deduction, not 3 tenths of a point. That is absurd. The landing is a huge part of the routine. It is the exclamation point on the routine, you did great on the initial routine, but can you land it? No, then you lose massive points.

I agree if you can complete a very difficult routine you should get bonus points, but if you fail, you should lose more points. It is a horrible way to award points. If you do a 6.8 difficulty routine perfect, and your opponent does a 7.5 routine but fails to land, they should not win by an logical thinking, but the way the scoring is, the can win. Ridiculous.

Judges are flawed because they are Human. Give me a clock or measuring tape.

Posted by: gatorskinz2000 | August 18, 2008 11:45 AM | Report abuse

This is not about being a Spoiled-Sport or Sore Loser...

If a Cheat is caught.. they should be called out and exposed by all the Governing Bodies responsible.. in this case.. the IOC..

here is a link showing the article in question.. take a few moment to review them.. then decide if He's age is relevant..... this is not about whether this young girl has the talent... she most assuredly does.. this is not about the scoring. or the tie break...

Its about CHEATING.... cheating that has been exposed and should be dealt with.... period...

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 11:45 AM | Report abuse

Uh huh, and we can always count on honesty and fair play whenever China is involved.

Posted by: Frank | August 18, 2008 11:46 AM | Report abuse

Just another example of poor writing in the WP.

Maybe you could list the provisions they use for a tiebreak??

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 11:47 AM | Report abuse

So US bronzes count the same as Chinese gold. The rest of the world, and much of the US, goes by total gold medals first.

Posted by: Gary | August 18, 2008 10:18 AM

But it gets even more embarassing
as the US media 'tables' ranked by the gold metal count early in the Olympics then switched to total count on the very day that China went ahead.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 11:48 AM | Report abuse

There are certainly many other 13-15 year old athletes in the USA and other countries who would also like to compete. Some of these athletes may never get a shot because of physical disadvantages between a 14 year old and an 18 year old (the age they would be in 2012). So, if China chooses to openly disregard the age limits and flaunt it in front of an entire planet on TV, it hurts us all. It raises doubts beyond the age issue, like the inconsistent scoring. China's image has been damaged, and it is their own fault. The OC needs to pull the Chinese medals and sanction that team. Hopefully, once the games are over and the athletes are safe, they will have the leadership to address this.

Posted by: AnotherVoice | August 18, 2008 11:48 AM | Report abuse

If you can find video tape, you would see how American stole man's team Gymnast gold medal from China. Team USA is treated much better by the judges on all kinds sports than any other country. you know why? Because American is "super large crying baby".
Get real, crying this time, losers.

Posted by: Steve | August 18, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

whaa whaa whaa. Who cares if they are younger? I'd think a couple extra years of practice and strength would be an advantage.

It was close and could have gone either way. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a biased moron.

Posted by: geezus | August 18, 2008 11:49 AM | Report abuse

Feng siad: "Point being, there is no way to prove that the age on those internet articles are correct either."

That's the problem with China. The lack of transparency, proof, documentation, fair rules, honesty, and integrity shown during these Olympic games (which are NOT supposed to be political, but which China has managed to transform into anyways) is appalling and despite all the happy smiley faces China paints onto everything, thinking people everywhere are onto the sham and it only damages China's hope for ever becoming a nation respected for anything other than it's complete clampdown on individual freedoms (what's the matter? Bible's scaring the Devil out of you?), unrestrained consumption and military muscle.

Posted by: National Sham | August 18, 2008 11:50 AM | Report abuse

1) none of the judges were chinese
2) this is just a case of sore losers because if Nastia had won, we wouldn't be having this conversation
3)this tie breaker computation was used at 2004 olympics. Its been introduced since after 1996.
4)When I watch NBC, I either turn down the volume or watch it on a canadian channel or watch a eurpoean station because it is SO SLANTED and SO BIAS.

5) He had fewer deductions
6) even nastia said that she had probelms on her pak salto

Posted by: Quit it Already | August 18, 2008 11:55 AM | Report abuse

I suppose to those complaining here Mary Lou Retton of 1984 must be the greatest gymnast in human history. Judging was horrible during those games, AND half of the competition weren't even in Los Angeles. The United States have sent gymnasts of higher calibre to world championships and the Summer Olympics since then. But the flag-waving crowd never complain about judging when the perceived injustice is in their home team's favor. It was so ironic when NBC asked "who would be the next Mary Lou" before the women's all around competition. In my mind, both Liukin and Johnson are superior gymnasts than Retton ever was, proven by their success at interntional events when there were a full field of competitors.

Posted by: another in the audience | August 18, 2008 11:56 AM | Report abuse

It's not just US fans that are appalled at the scoring bias, many other gymnastic 'experts' have commented on it. The exploitation of the gymnasts in what should be an amateur sport by falsifying their ages (All the commentaries, including a forensic expert that spoke about the body's characteristics that support a younger age, agree). The government has also bought a house for the family of one of their gymnasts???? The decision was made to accept the birth certificates because the Olympic's directors were reluctant to call China a liar. I have been thinking that China probably is not concerned in the least about ethics and sportsmanship, just winning at any cost. I have decided, that as much as I can, wherever and whenever I can, I will avoid buying anything 'made in China'. It may not amount to much, but it goes hand in hand with my existing decision to buy USA. So first: 'buy USA' then second, 'buy any but made in China.'
It's a small protest, but it's a protest.

Posted by: elen | August 18, 2008 11:57 AM | Report abuse

in response to geezus: Experience is probably a good thing, although I heard some commentators say that inexperience in an international setting is also good, since they don't feel the pressure as much (however, that's a questionable argument)

I think the reason the age limit exists in both gymnastics and figure skating is so you don't get two-year-olds spending all their time learning how to do a backflip.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 11:57 AM | Report abuse

The gymnasts--regardless of their ages--are amazing athletes. My beef is with the various gymnastics federations that manage the sport.

It's a shame to see how they've reduced a pure athletic competition to a farce. Sparkly make-up, scoring to the thousandths of a point, and, yes, controlling and manipulating youngsters that should be playing on a jungle gym are all evidence that we've lost sight of the real meaning of sport.

Posted by: I mean...seriously | August 18, 2008 11:59 AM | Report abuse

I understand the explanations offered here but the rule is still an obscure one. I don't understand why the awarding of dual golds is undesirable. How would they resolve a dead heat in a running or swimming event? I know that if I were going to try an enter the Olympics, given this situation, the boxing outcomes, etc. I would pick an event where the outcome is NOT determined by voting. Remember the French judge in figure skating?

Posted by: chopin224 | August 18, 2008 11:59 AM | Report abuse

Personally, I always thought that Ezcatena Sczabo (sp ?) of Romania did better than Mary Lou Retton in the 1984 Olympics. Szabo actually won 4 gold medals and one silver (better than Carl Lewis) in the games, while Mary Lou Retton won just 1 gold. Mary Lou is a fine gymnast, but her victory was very largely a combination of luck, the boycott etc. Clever marketing has helped to perpetuate her as the great Olympics gymnast of 1984, a dubious claim at best

Posted by: Jon | August 18, 2008 12:00 PM | Report abuse

Oh please, Iris, I'm married to a Chinese girl and she doesn't look 5-6 years younger than her age. While Chinese women are smaller, usually, in height and stature than Caucasian women (and no need to throw 'fat' and 'obese' insults - last I checked, China was starting to see some problems with obesity as wealth was leading to people eating more protein than vegetables) they do not look like kids the whole time. In any event, it's not just their appearance that has us complaining. It's also the websites - FROM CHINESE SOURCES - which listed two of the girls' ages as under sixteen until a few months ago. Now, miraculously, those webpages are nowhere to be found.

Posted by: matt | August 18, 2008 12:00 PM | Report abuse


I'm not saying sacramone was supposed to get the gold. i'm talking bout those people who are complaining about how china is bribing judges, which is the excuse they're using for why china won the TEAM finals as well. i didn't say individual i said TEAM. so i brought up sacramone's crap mistakes during the team finals, which helped screw the gold up for the U.S team. The americans did that to themselves, so you can't blame it on biased judging. there is no bias. the bias for most of the people on here whining is favoring the americans. so obviously you'll use anything you can to attack the winning team. sore losers.

Posted by: Iris | August 18, 2008 12:01 PM | Report abuse

Yang Yilin deserves a silver but she got a bronze. Luiken has already taken a lot of adventages in this game, thanks to her body line, her father, and the "powerful" country she now belongs to.

A rule is a rule, it's set up to resolve situations like this, stop pouring dirty water here and there, what a shame!

He Kexin is the best.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 12:01 PM | Report abuse

dual golds? perhaps they just didn't make as many as they needed.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 12:01 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: haha | August 18, 2008 12:02 PM | Report abuse

Wow, there have been so many sour grapes with these games, and quite frankly I'm tired of hearing Americans whining! Perhaps some of the girls are younger - perhaps not. But they're all pretty damn young, and if our 16 year olds can't beat their 14 year olds, hey, get over it! And as far as the tie-breaking rules go - they may be byzantine, but that is the procedure, and that is the result. Remember that these games were prefaced by the absurdity of George Bush, who lied to start a war, supports torture and the unlimited detention of people without charges, lecturing the Chinese on "human rights." Give me a break! America has no more authority over China, in athletics or anything else.

Posted by: Peter | August 18, 2008 12:03 PM | Report abuse

I couldn't even watch the women's individual competition--I'm so sick of the controversy and the failure of the IOC to investigate whether the Chinese gymnasts are underage. Their excuse was that it was up to the individual countries to certify it. Seriously? They don't leave it up to the individual countries to certify that their atheletes are drug-free.

They just can't admit that they really messed up by giving the Olympics to China at all and now they're all concerned about saving face. The games have become tarnished by scandals, controversies, and corporate sponsorship.

Posted by: m | August 18, 2008 12:06 PM | Report abuse

The travesty last night was in the vault competition. The silver (maybe she got bronze?) medal goes to the Chinese girl that falls flat on her face, and the gold to the South Korean girl that lands out of bounds twice - but their vaults were supposedly more difficult than the US girl's - so in essence, the US girl would have been better off doing a vault that she couldn't handle either, just like the the Chinese and the South Korean girls couldn't handle theirs - and make a mess of the vault - rather than doing a relatively flawless couple of vaults. I guess basically where and how you land doesn't matter. Any competition at the Olympics that relies on judges is always infuriating....

Posted by: Bela | August 18, 2008 12:10 PM | Report abuse

Peter: I agree with your point that it doesn't matter if Chinese 14-year-olds can beat American 16-year-olds. (Assuming for the purpose of argument)

If a younger gymnast is better, that's perfectly fine. My only response is that those who violate and allow the violation of the age limit are putting younger gymnasts in danger of being pushed too hard for the sake is appearing to be a child prodigy. I mean, pushing the envelope on the age limit issue might just end up a slippery slope where one day 8-year-olds might be competing.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 12:11 PM | Report abuse

oh please, matt, just cuz ur married to a chinese woman who looks her age doesn't mean all of em are like that. i've been able to push it pretty far, i've passed for 13 just to get a junior discount before and i'm freaking 22. yeah so what if china's "starting" to have obesity problems, the U.S has had them for A LONG TIME. i'm not insulting americans as a whole, i AM one, i'm just an american with chinese genetics. and i'm not saying chinese women are supposed to look like kids their whole damn lives, but these girls are STILL YOUNG, so of course they're supposed to look like kids. i'm just saying if you're chinese and you are 16 and look 12, that's normal. just like i'm 22 and look 16. and when i'm 50 i'll prob look 40. my mom got carded for liquor once and she's 55. too bad your wife didn't get as lucky.

either way, china won. u can complain all you want, they still won.

Posted by: Iris | August 18, 2008 12:15 PM | Report abuse

I swear I saw the Chinese coach bottle feeding infant formula to one of those gals!

Posted by: Tom Renda | August 18, 2008 12:17 PM | Report abuse

It doesn't make sense for the Chinese to fix the results, only to mark down the bronze medal winner. She was consistently their better gymnast on the bars.

You guys are making the US look bad, whining like sore losers while ignoring all logic. Since when did journalists rise above all their xxx to lecture others about morals? Perhaps this is how it will be. If all you can do is lose and whine blindly, the rest of the world can overtake you even faster.

"Is this fair? I play by the rules and so in my opinion I would have to say yes," Liukin said. "The Chinese girl did an excellent routine and actually the girl who got third I think got a little under-scored. She did a great routine."

The judge who broke the tie is Australian.

Posted by: jim | August 18, 2008 12:17 PM | Report abuse

For this age thing, there is nothing US or anyone else can prove.
First, looking younger is no way to prove age, because Asian people look younger in general. At the same time, the girls that do gymnastics generally look shorter and younger than the general population. And finally, they take some form of age-suppresant.

Second, as for this so called prove above an online article showing age being 14, that doesn't prove anything either. In many parts of China, you don't get birth certificates or documentation when you were born. So, you can easily register for a younger age in a provincial trial and then have your age corrected when selected for national team. Point being, there is no way to prove that the age on those internet articles are correct either.

Posted by: Feng | August 18, 2008 10:25 AM

Except the CHINESE press has pointed that last year the girls ages were given as 13. It's not the "internet articles" and Western journalists who have uncovered the issue - it's pretty much anyone who can read Chinese newspapers

Posted by: slacker mom | August 18, 2008 12:20 PM | Report abuse

there are ways to verify age; such as when certain teeth form, etc. and i'm sure there's a standard already in place for each race, caucasian, asian, etc. so, the chinese could put all this to rest by simply having these tests done by an impartial third party (who would that be, though??) regardless of medal status, breaking the age rules (if done) would tell alot about the integrity of the chinese gov't. i, personally, would still complain about scoring if another country's gymnast(say, Russia) was scored the way the US was....what's right is right, regardless of the players.

Posted by: codfishg | August 18, 2008 12:22 PM | Report abuse

Iris, I support your claims, although I find the one about your mother being carded a bit outrageous.

A Chinese storekeeper once accused me of skipping school (middle school to be exact) even though I was a college student (of normal undergraduate age) on vacation there. And I happen to be Asian-American. Even the Chinese in China can fail to precisely identify age. Not to mention all those ethnic groups in the country.

There's bound to be quirks, and while there's insufficient information to prove that the gymnasts are 16, there's also insufficient information that they're younger than that.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 12:26 PM | Report abuse


"2) this is just a case of sore losers because if Nastia had won, we wouldn't be having this conversation"

Is this person smoking Crack?????

though the article is about the Tie Break... you fail to grasp the Big Picture..

This young girl HE.. and the other two Chinese girls who's ages are also in question.. Should not have been allowed to compete in the first place...

The IOC when confronted with Chinese Government Documentation supporting the facts of underage competitors.. turned a blind eye.. plain and simple.. They stated it was not their responsibility to investigate the allegations...

in essence.. the IOC will conduct all manner of Drug Testing and other types of Cheating Violations.. but will not extend those protections.. the protections afforded to every International Competitor in order to keep The Games fair and honest... They will not investigate the ages of competitors just as long as a Government issued Passport is the only document presented... Even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary...

This would all be mute... if... the offending competitors were barred from competing.. according to the rules every country agrees to.....

The Olympic Athletes Oath

"In the name of all competitors, I promise we shall take part in these Olympic Games, respecting and abiding by the rules which govern them, committing ourselves to a sport without doping and without drugs, in the spirit of true sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honor of our teams."

clearly... the IOC uses this more for tradition and less for accountability of the sponsoring countries...

for any person to say American is just being a sore loser is totally off base.. and borders on offensive...

I personally can;t fathom a single American when confronted with a Fair and Honest outcome.. especially when watching a superb and magnificent performance... Not to embrace and praise the athlete that demonstrated the skill and determination to win fairly and honestly....

Historically Americans have done just that...

so for those people using the Poor Sport argument here... Get Bent.. you obviously are clueless.....

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 12:28 PM | Report abuse

Here are some tips to boycott Chinese products.

1). Don't buy any car. Though it is made by US or Japan, the steel and a lot of parts are still from China.
2). Don't buy any new house, cement, steel from China too.
3). Very careful to buy any clothing, it may not made in China, but the materials may also from China. Got to make it clear before you buy it.
4). Don't buy any paper for your kids, because it almost all coming from China.
Since America doesn't produce any product any more, there are 70% product from China. Anything you buy may come from China. Just avoid these stuff. So, go, go, go, boycott them, I know you made big bucks.

Posted by: Jennifer | August 18, 2008 12:35 PM | Report abuse

It's one thing to be patriotic and feel pride over your own race. It's another thing when you can't be honest and play fair in the eyes of the world. I feel embarassed to be Chinese American during these Olympic games. By using fake CG firework visuals and fake child singers in the opening ceremonies, to using blatantly underaged female gymnasts in competition, modern China has tried to show that they are a world power to be reckoned with. Instead, they reveal their true corrupt, deceitful spirit in the eyes of the world. The China of the historical past would be ashamed of what modern China has become.

Posted by: tsing | August 18, 2008 12:36 PM | Report abuse

Iris, why don't you just move to China then? You sure bash the US and its residents enough! I'm sure you won't be missed in the US. Also, since you brag of posing as age 13 to cheat yourself into a discount, you'd fit right in with China residents.

Posted by: lisa | August 18, 2008 12:36 PM | Report abuse

"Poor Sport"?

I just want to watch the program without too much tangential chatter that keeps on saying the same things over and over again.

Afterwards is a different story though. :P

Additionally, "clueless" clearly needs a converse. With what credentials, do you propose, Anonymous, what "not clueless" would entail?

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 12:37 PM | Report abuse


"And as far as the tie-breaking rules go - they may be byzantine, but that is the procedure, and that is the result."

Do you honestly subscribe to this dribble????

is your argument.... Those are the rules.. Live with them????

Donkey.... you make the case for those of us arguing the AGE RULE!!!!

Its the rule... live with it...

by your own thinking you have confirmed and supported the fact in evidence...

That China is breaking the rules and should be confronted....

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 12:38 PM | Report abuse

322 Hekexin 9.30 9.10 9.10 8.90 9.00 8.90 (=1) 16.725
  MID.4 【0.70】 0.90 0.90 【1.10】 1.00 1.10 0.975 (=1)
  AVG.3 【0.70】 0.90 0.90 【1.10】 1.00 【1.10】 0.933 (1)
  412 Liukin 9.00 9.30 9.00 8.80 9.00 9.10 (=1) 16.725
  MID.4 1.00 【0.70】 1.00 【1.20】 1.00 0.90 0.975 (=1)
  AVG.3 1.00 【0.70】 1.00 【1.20】【 1.00】 0.90 0.966 (2)

∵0.933<0.966 ∴10-0.933>10-0.966 Hekexin got the gold

Posted by: Annie | August 18, 2008 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Iris said: "i've been able to push it pretty far, i've passed for 13 just to get a junior discount before and i'm freaking 22."

Congratulations! You most certainly do China proud with this knowing deceit you seem so nonchalant about flaunting. Are you sure there isn't a Politbureau job that has your name on it? Dishonesty is not something you ought to be flaunting in any public sphere.

Posted by: Iris loves Osama | August 18, 2008 12:41 PM | Report abuse


Hey, why not take advantage of something if i can? and don't be giving me any BS about how all americans are perfectly honest. I'm sure if any of you could get away with it, you would too. unfortunately, none of you can. And i'm not bashing all U.S residents, i'm just bashing the ones who can't over a U.S loss and try to make excuses and point fingers. I'm not going on whining about any U.S victories, they won, nothing to complain about. it's done and over. so you all need to get over it too.

Posted by: Iris | August 18, 2008 12:44 PM | Report abuse

Didn't we already confront China about the age thing? What is needed isn't conjecture, but decisive evidence of wrongdoing. Without it, innocent until proven guilty still works.

In the case that there is decisive evidence and I just don't know about it: the IOC needs reform. And that's going to be a pain.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 12:46 PM | Report abuse

I think the rules should be changed to eliminate age requirements in Olympic competition. Unless the IOC wants to maintain birth documentation for EVERYONE IN THE WORLD, there will be allegations. It's difficult to guess an Asian's age accurately, especially if they've taken care of themselves.

The Olympics shouldn't work like the Little League World should be the best of the best regardless.

If countries want to set their own age requirements, that's fine. Ultimately, they'll be the ones that have to deal with the pros and cons of athletes at certain ages.

Posted by: Steve | August 18, 2008 12:46 PM | Report abuse

As a former gymnast I always have been amazed at how the IFG’s reaction to almost any controversy, complication, or error usually seems to be to make the rules and code of points even more complicated rather than less. There are probably a lot of reasons why gymnastics remains one of those sports that has difficulty getting a large following but it seems that at least one of them has to be that the rules and guidelines for judging routines and determining the winners remains practically impenetrable to the audience. And sometimes to the judges, as evidenced by the debacle in the 2004 men’s all-around where they miscalculated the Korean athlete’s start value on parallel bars but then failed to take a major and mandatory deduction which would not have even been a deduction just a couple of years prior. The resulting high profile fiasco distracted from what was by far the biggest outrage of the competitions- namely the head judge of the high bar event outlawing a major release move a day before the games started after he had been on site for about a week, free to watch the athletes training. At the risk of sounding overly nationalistic, the head judge was Japanese and the move he outlawed was only being attempted by two Americans. What kind of sport allows rule changes the day before a competition starts? No matter what country they are from or what place they end up finishing in, these athletes have all pushed their bodies to painfully unrealistic levels and in many cases have affected them for life just for the chance to get to the Olympics despite the fact that even Olympic gold often doesn’t get them the kind of superstar status afforded to athletes in some sports. The very minimum that they deserve is to know that they have been treated and judged fairly and consistently. The athletes have done their parts. The judges and rules committees need to get their acts together.

Posted by: Brandon | August 18, 2008 12:49 PM | Report abuse

Washington Post, wouldn't the comment given earlier by "Iris love Osama" be considered a "personal attacks"?

While I agree that flaunting deception isn't the best of ideas on a public comment board, the response was, in my opinion, in bad taste.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 12:52 PM | Report abuse

The tiebreaker rule was created before the competition. The rule is the rule. So what’s the problem?

Posted by: Shawn | August 18, 2008 12:52 PM | Report abuse

What total bull. Strip the gold from Cheating China's 14 year old and give it some the gymnast with a factual age.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 12:55 PM | Report abuse

Chiara, since when is stating FACTS FROM THE MOUTH OF IRIS a personal attack? Grow up. The title is a play on the fact that Osama is a peer to Iris when it comes to "acceptable" deception.

Posted by: Osama doesn't love Chiara | August 18, 2008 12:56 PM | Report abuse

"Honestly, it's nothing I can control," said Liukin... "It's been pretty fair to me."

Get a grip people.

Posted by: cochino | August 18, 2008 12:58 PM | Report abuse

Oh, give me a break people!! Stop winching about 'bias' and burning the IOC, Chinese athletes and judges at the stake. I'm as American as the next guy, and my friends, this is simply what they call "home-court advantage." We'll enjoy it when it's back on US turf. Until then, these kids are extraordinary - ALL of them - so let it go and celebrate what we've got.

Posted by: Chris | August 18, 2008 12:59 PM | Report abuse

Some of the Americans here just have bad sportsmanship. They complain whenever they don't win and call other people cheaters. All you people ever do is complain and whine when you don't get what you want. Honestly, has any of you who says the Chinese gymnasts are underage ever been to China and lived there at all? Because if you haven't, then how can you judge their age by Western standards. Most Asian people are naturally thinner and smaller, if you have ever been to China, you would know. And if you looked at some of the Russian and Japanese gymnasts, they look way younger too, but no one's complaining about them because they didn't beat the US team.
As for the judging, none of it is biased!
Do you even know what the rules are?? None of the nations that compete in the even and have judges from that country judging that event.
Liukin and other gymnasts have shown far better sportsmanship than all you you complainer out there, especially that hypocrite Bela. The Chinese news don't talk trash about Americans when they beat the chinese.
Come on, people, why don't we just enjoy all the athletes' hard work and amazing skills instead of whining and debasing other countries all the time.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 12:59 PM | Report abuse

What the heck is the problem with having a tie anyway? They happen in other sports. In an actual race I can see going all the way down to thousandths of a second. That's objective and real. But what exactly does .033 of a point worth of difference of opinion amount to? Certainly not anything that the audience can understand or sympathize with.

Posted by: Brandon | August 18, 2008 1:01 PM | Report abuse

hey Chiara...

sorry I missed the name Line...

Not Clueless....

the only credential a person would need is...

Knowing their fellow Americans....

So at the risk of a double post....

Americans, when confronted with an amazing, remarkable, beautiful, spectacular, incredible,moving performance by an athlete... any athlete, from any country... would be clapping the loudest.... extended our heart felt admirations to those athletes so deserving... that they gave their all and we were blessed enough to have witnessed their achievement is enough for Americans.....

Cool Runnings....

we feel their pain and share their joys... regardless of the country they hail from...

to expect Fair and Honest Competition.... is not so much to ask for...

as a matter of fact... that is exactly what the Olympics is all about...

its not about the Gold, Silver of Bronze.... thats just the icing for the athlete.... and bragging rights for the sponsoring countries...

The real gift for non participants... just to be a witness.... to watch so many amazing competitors from around the world.. come together in the Spirit of Competition... to compete.. fairly and honestly... to sacrifice and succeed...To march in on opening day.. and march out on closing night... and know those people gave it their all....

to see it tarnished.. well.. it should hurt all fair minded peoples... especially with regards to the Olympics...

so.. The slingers of Poor Sports... or Sore Losers... should consider this...

if it was their 16yr old competing or brother..or wife or husband etc etc.. and their child lost to a cheater.. how would they feel.. The ask them... this question... If the competition was fair and honest and their loved one lost, how would they feel...???

Rules are Rules... if you cheat and get caught.. there are penalties..

The IOC needs to stand up... investigate... make a solid, fair and honest ruling based on the facts... and support that final determination reasonably and rationally...

The IOC should not say... "Checking the ages of 10,000 athletes is not or responsibility"... because clearly It Is....

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 1:01 PM | Report abuse

I'm glad Chiara isn't a censor. As these Olympics show, taste and appropriateness is entirely subjective. Same is true on these comment boards. Sticks and stones...

Posted by: Get a grip | August 18, 2008 1:02 PM | Report abuse

McCain want to go to war with China over this latest outrage to America! If only he was commander an’ chief, this would never have happened. McCain says, he heard Obama cheered this tie breaking decision! OUTRAGE!

Posted by: kparc | August 18, 2008 1:02 PM | Report abuse

oh please, i deal with enough crap with having to show multiple IDs everytime i get carded because usually they don't believe me, and even have to show one just to get into a rated R movie sometimes. if people are gonna be stupid enough to believe i'm that young, i'll be smart enough to play that in my advantage. it's not like it doesn't have it's disadvantages too.

Posted by: Iris | August 18, 2008 1:03 PM | Report abuse

There comes a point where the fair thing to do is declare a tie and award two medals. In this case it would be two golds and a bronze.

Ties and double medals have happened many times before over many Olympics in many different sports.

If there really needs to be a tiebreaker for scoring ties in this sport, then one is enough.

Posted by: mi-ti-bear | August 18, 2008 1:04 PM | Report abuse

There would not be all this posts of Americans whining like babies if they had won the gold.
When you lose, don't try to find excuses, it just make you look bad.

Posted by: Katie | August 18, 2008 1:05 PM | Report abuse

The IOC is being ridiculous about this. A tie is a tie. The two athletes took different paths and got the same result. I think that the IOC is actually going against the spirit of the competition when it breaks ties based on how the athletes achieved the result.

What if two sprinters tie in the 100 meters? Would the IOC say that the medal goes to the one who ran the first half of the race the fastest? Of course they wouldn't. If they tried to do that, they know they would look ridiculous. But they can get away with it in gymnastics because the rules are too hard for the public to understand.

Posted by: TomR | August 18, 2008 1:06 PM | Report abuse

Osama doesn't love Chiara,

I was referring to your comments following your quote from Iris. Quoting someone is certainly not a personal attack.

I was merely stating my opinion on the personal attack issue. I have not read the "full rules" section in the "Post a Comment" section, so any statement I give regarding that matter will be wholly subjective.

Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the name/topic that you have given.

It is also my opinion that this response has terribly digressed from the subject this thread was meant for; that is, gymnastics.

Posted by: Chiara | August 18, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

Just noting for the record, this is the first response I've ever read that didn't factor Bush in there somewhere (though there was some McCain sniping). Thanks for that; I didn't think it was possible!

BTW, I think the best part of the story was Liukin's 'Oh well, a medal's a medal' acceptance of the whole thing. Something for us all to learn from, I'm thinking....

Posted by: A milestone | August 18, 2008 1:09 PM | Report abuse

The rules are NOT HARD for the public to understand! TomR!
Have you read any rules or earlier posts at all. It's very simple.

There are six judges, but only the four middle ones count for the average to rule out the extremes. When ties come, they use the highest and the lowest scores to determine the winner.
How hard it that?

Next time, try knowing the rules first before you post

Posted by: Zane | August 18, 2008 1:10 PM | Report abuse

I feel I entered a zone of "mad cows" or human with "mad cow disease."

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 1:13 PM | Report abuse

The Australians are the best -- despite being a very small country population-wise they are consistently in fourth or fifth place in total medal count.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 1:13 PM | Report abuse

Karma payback for the Serbia swimmer getting hosed in the Phelps race!

Posted by: BushMustGo | August 18, 2008 1:14 PM | Report abuse

Drama, drama, drama - hype, hype, hype - It always happens in Gymnastics, Ice Skating, Boxing and Diving. I could never compete in a 'sport' where the outcome is decided by another human being not in competition. I could never live with situations like this...remember the Korean boxer stealing the gold in Seoal??

The Greeks who originated the Games are probably rolling over in their Pagan graves.

Posted by: hedge | August 18, 2008 1:18 PM | Report abuse

so funny... so many poster.. hardly a single reader..

katie.. you clearly are one of the clueless.... and know nothing of the American Heart... that.. or you are 5 years old and haven't had the chance to witness it... either way you lack the insight...

for 50 years... thats how old I am.. I have watch the Olympics.. in those years.. I have cheered for... and cried for... many many athletes... mostly NON U.S. Athletes..

This is true of nearly every American... thats how we are... its our nature.. to root for the underdog... and applaud the winners... regardless.... and feel the pain of those competitors that failed to reach the podium...

This article... though it addresses the tie break... is actually alluding to the bigger picture...

Tie Breaks are fine... though i do not agree with the structure... I accept it as a necessary procedure...

The issue is this...

Chine fielded 3 athletes for womens gymnastics that have questionable birth dates.. Dates that potentially violate the rules of the Games...

The IOC decided not to investigate the allegations... not to even investigate these allegations is at best... a serious misjudgment on their part...

If.. after the allegations were investigated and (which the IOC has had plenty of time to do by the way) it was determined these 3 young Athletes did indeed meet all the requirements set forth in the rules..

be assured... Not a single American would have complained... we would have applauded and praised the athletes with warm and open hearts...

as a side note.. the young Chinese lady last night on the 3 meter spring board.. Simply Terrific... was a pleasure to watch and enjoy so dominating a performance....

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 1:21 PM | Report abuse

By the way I just looked up this morning's men's vault results and believe it or not, there was a tie at 16.537 points each with one vaulter getting gold and the other silver going through the same tie-breaker formula as here with the uneven bars. There is next to nothing written about this in the press so far.

Posted by: Neil | August 18, 2008 1:22 PM | Report abuse

I am SO UPSET at the ripoff by the Australian 'judge'. Her name is Helen Colaguiri and her email is I urge everyone here to write her a polite note and let her know the world has been watching her unfair and biased scoring against Nastia, which cost her a gold medal. The evidence that Helen has some kind of bias against Nastia is obvious when you look at Helen's scoring compared to ALL of the other judges. Helen's stands out alone as the worst, by a wide margin. And therefore, something obviously is wrong. Hopefully we can shine a light on this 'judge' and keep it from happening again.

Posted by: Dal | August 18, 2008 1:24 PM | Report abuse


I think the controversy is coming from the fact that previous sources, including Chinese media, had reported the athletes’ ages as several years younger. Their appearance is really irrelevant. The age issue is significant because of the nature or the sport. There are advantages and disadvantages to being younger and smaller just as there are advantages and disadvantages to being older and larger. The age restrictions were basically an attempt to extend the lifetime of the athletes’ careers, discourage coaches from treating the younger kids as disposable cogs, and to discourage older athletes from doing unnatural things to themselves to try and stay tiny and competitive. The audience mostly only sees the success stories, and know nothing about the athletes who got chewed up by unrelenting pounding on their bodies at early ages or who damaged themselves with eating disorders trying to stay tiny at older ages. It’s not so much of an issue for the men because no matter how acrobatic little youngsters may be, our bodies don’t really start developing the upper body strength needed to be competitive until the 16 to 18 range. The age limits are one of the good calls by the IFG and all countries should be held to it equally.

Posted by: Brandon | August 18, 2008 1:25 PM | Report abuse

As for the ages, if these girls get human status at conception, as so many in our country believe, doesn't that add 9 months onto their ages?

Posted by: Ginger K. | August 18, 2008 1:32 PM | Report abuse

hey TomR

actually last night in the Women's 100 Meter..

Jamaica took 1st 2nd and 3rd..

with 2nd and 3rd tied...

pretty sure in this case...

2 Silvers are awarded and no Bronze... though one could say.. why not award a bronze to the 4th place winner.. an American...

and yet.. thats how it is done... I have no problem with this...

and yet.. I could be wrong... maybe they use a Reaction Time to decide the Bronze... I haven't checked...

either way.. no problems.,...

and yet.. if one of the Athletes was Doping... or in some Violation of the RULES... I would expect the IOC to Investigate....

Thats all the Gymnastics Debate is about...


Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 1:33 PM | Report abuse

Gary is correct, "The Washington Post" has diluted the Olympic medals by counting bronze the same as gold medals. Contrast "The Post" medal results with those of BBC. "The Post" has France in 5th place, even though athletes from there have only won four gold medals, while BBC has France in 11th place.

I am not sure how common this is among media "coverage' in this country, but it certainly conveys an inaccurate and misleading image of a country's performance. At the very least, the medals should be weighted, with a gold meriting at least three points, silver two points and bronze one point. Then compute the results.
Maybe this would be too "complicated" though for the nationalistic media.

Posted by: Independent | August 18, 2008 1:33 PM | Report abuse


being funny???

hard to believe your not...

The rules are such..

Competitor must turn 16 in the year of the Olympic Competition...

that means.. even if an athlete was born on Dec 31st... they could be 15yrs and 8 months.... and still qualify...

the rule is based on the BIRTH DATE.. not you Pro Life Funny. Date of Conception..

besides.. her Birth date...

passport... 1-1-1992
other dos's.. 1-1-1 1994

so the 8 Months... not enough...... LMAO

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 1:39 PM | Report abuse

The women's gymnastics judging has been a joke to begin with. The Chinese medal winner falls on the vault and still wins a medal while the US vaulter doesn't fall and does not medal. Hello, give me a break!

Posted by: Keith Stiles | August 18, 2008 1:40 PM | Report abuse

ok.. I went and checked..

Last nights Women's 100 meters.

1 gold
2 silvers

There is not a tie break...

how odd...

how easy it would be to award the bronze to the athlete with the faster reaction time...

one could easily argue the faster reaction time runner had the advantage and lost it...

unless both runners had identical reaction times... but this was not indicated on the Official Beijing Olympics website...

ands still... I have no problem with this at all...

but how strange... no Bronze Medal awarded.... to the American that finished with the 3RD Fastest Time....

we should all boycott Jamaican Goods... LMAO.....

but those are the IOC rules... I can live with that....

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 1:52 PM | Report abuse

Sour grapes? Maybe

Unsportsmanlike conduct? Without a doubt.

Nastia had an amazing run at these Olympic games, and she unlike her countrymen and women here on this blog, handled herself with great poise. Congratulations Nastia, you are a true champion.

He is an amazing competitor, and this time around she won the gold. We should be applauding these athletes, not slandering them.

Posted by: Saffer | August 18, 2008 1:55 PM | Report abuse

What's the matter Steve? Did somebody cut off your queue?

Posted by: chopin224 | August 18, 2008 2:01 PM | Report abuse

Beware the world! China is very skillful in CHEATING and BRIBERY, it has been in their blood for thousand years already. I have lived in China for 2 years , they cheated you in nearly every daily transaction if you are off guard.

Posted by: masala | August 18, 2008 2:05 PM | Report abuse

Hey Saffer.

it is hardly Slander..

To question known documents in evidence.. to question these documents, documents that exhibit contradictory information regarding the Birth Dates of assorted athletes...
Documents of the Official Chinese Government.

Slander... I dare say you have not examined them... let alone seen them...

so go look at them.... then decide is the IOC should be taking the position they are taking... this is not about a simple Gold Medal... or a Team Gold...

This is about the spirit of the Games.. Cheating caught in any form should be dealt with... not just Doping....

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 2:06 PM | Report abuse

Hey Iris,

You're trying to tell me that China doesn't have a way to prove these girls' ages? If the U.S. team was in the same position, I guarantee you they'd bend over backwards proving the girls' ages - right down to listing, and making available for interviews, every teacher for every grade of school the girls had completed (assuming the girls weren't homeschooled), as well as providing (with their consent) the names of family friends. And, probably, providing old schoolwork, medical, and dental records to establish a timeline.

You're telling me a communist country, with socialized medicine, can't come up with vaccination records (which will list the date each vaccination was administered) for these girls? Or that none of theses girls have broken bones or strained ligaments and, consequently, have no medical records listing the dates treatments were provided? I don't know about China, but in the U.S. every doctor's visit starts with preliminary paperwork (except, of course, genuine emergencies that require immediate medical attention) that includes the birth date of the patient.

NONE of that paperwork was available?

Posted by: Matt | August 18, 2008 2:06 PM | Report abuse

And because China is the host, no one is going to make a stink about He's age? Why the heck not?? Cheating is cheating.

Posted by: JimBob | August 18, 2008 2:18 PM | Report abuse

This debate has been going on for months now... and recently...

However, on August 2, the International Olympic Committee stated that they would not investigate the discrepancy in He's reported age, stating that the FIG's own verification system would be acceptable proof of eligibility. The FIG, in responding to the situation, stated that they would not ask for additional proof of age beyond the passports already supplied by Chinese officials.[6][7]

the FIG and IOC are both culpable.... they have damaged their own credibility and facilitated a great miscarriage....

every Olympic Athlete in some small way has been tarnished... and the closet athletes have been possibly denied Fair and Honest Competitions...

Thats the real shame...

Posted by: hey Matt, | August 18, 2008 2:19 PM | Report abuse

Quite simply, the U.S. should protest the age of the Chinese gymnasts and have the olympic committee fully investigate that aspect, and then act accordingly.

Posted by: Ed Dudenhoeffer | August 18, 2008 2:21 PM | Report abuse

...and yet no one has made an issue with the fact that Liukin lost to a DUDE?

It's ok for a man to compete then, as long as He's 16 and there are no tiebreakers? Is this what I'm hearing?

Talk about a double standard.

Posted by: spectre | August 18, 2008 2:27 PM | Report abuse

Talontbo, my apologies you are correct. My posting came across a little too strong.

I just feel people here are directly placing blame on the athletes, these girls are just doing what they have trained for, for years. All their hard work should be applauded. If they are in fact too young who should be to blame? Them, or the officials who run the sport in their country?

If there truly is evidence out there proving that the gymnasts are underage then yes, the rules should be enforced and their medals should be returned.

Posted by: Saffer | August 18, 2008 2:28 PM | Report abuse

Why not allow tie in baseball?

Why not round up the most suspious looking person if there is a theft in a store?

Why not change the rule in the middle of the game?

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 2:41 PM | Report abuse

Full of American sore losers, crying babies here. LOL

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 2:47 PM | Report abuse

hey Saffer,,

I could not agree more..

He Kexin is without a doubt a remarkable young girl.. gifted and professional by all observable..

How sweet it would been to see her in 4 years...

That said.. you again are not incorrect... The FIG and IOC should hold the sponsoring country, in this case, China, accountable..

and yet the FIG and IOC seem to lack the fortitude to confront the Host Nation, China...

This is not the athletes fault to a degree...

and yet it is easily argued...

The Athletes select a representative to affirm the..

Olympic Athletes Oath..

"In the name of all competitors I promise that we shall take part in these Olympic Games, respecting and abiding by the rules which govern them, committing ourselves to a sport without doping and without drugs, in the true spirit of sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honour of our teams."

so.. to some degree the Individual Athletes must also assume the responsibilities required of them...

Lets face it.. if the IOC at some later date determines and finds reason to revoke a Medal.. it is the Athlete that is order to return the Medal in question..

The athlete also have a standard they must accept and live up to personally...

The Olympics are not technically a competition between countries... though the Modern Olympics taken on this persona.. it is about individuals and teams...

this article is about a Tie Break...

and yet so many people posting fail to see...

There is a legitimate reason to question the ages of several athletes...

if it had been investigated... we may not have even seen the need for a Tie Break...

and had it been investigated and the questions answered to the satisfaction of the Governing Bodies.. and Those Athletes had been found to be in accordance with all the rules... again.. there would be no need for such an article...

Tie Breaks for Gymnastics are now part of the procedures... I am reasonably sure everyone can accept that...

though I personally fail to see how these tie breaks actually determine the winner... I grasp the math...I fail to see how they chose to select the difference in one skill first,over the other for a tie break...but they are the best the IOC could develop... OK.. its their venue...

But the IOC is so willing to catch Doping Violators... and on the other hand.. let what may be this form of cheating slide... How consistent does that appear to the other competitors???? how fair???

Posted by: talontbo | August 18, 2008 2:47 PM | Report abuse

To answer Tunatofu's question about why gymnastics are shown at 11:30 at night is that China and the USA are on opposite sides of the earth so when it's 11:30 in the morning in China it's 11:30 pm in the USA(east coast). Since gymnastics gets the highest viewer ratings, it's shown live in late primetime.

Posted by: Wolfcastl | August 18, 2008 2:52 PM | Report abuse

Scores are based on opinions

Then they take these scores and run them through the magic box to get an answer…

In the end, whatever they come up with is still BS because you cannot “compute” someone’s opinions.

Much like the boxing fiasco and the underage gymnasts, I don’t expect China to garner much respect in the world after these Faux Games…. Well maybe in the New Soviet Union and Cuba….

Is it too late to hold another legitimate Olympics somewhere else?

Posted by: TiredOfBS | August 18, 2008 2:53 PM | Report abuse

Why is it so bad that an American does not win a tie (with a score that in details were not as high as the other athlete), but when an American wins a Gold with an undisputed lower score than a Korean, that's ok?

Posted by: Kathy | August 18, 2008 3:01 PM | Report abuse

To those are concerned about the possible cheating by the Chinese athletes, or even their health, consider these familiar names in the short distance events:

Marion Jones
Justin Gatlin
Timothy Montgomery
Kelli White
Calvin Harrison
Alvin Harrison
Dennis Mitchell
Chryste Gaines
Antonio Pettigrew

Check on the list of Olympic gold medalists sanctioned for doping and you will know who's best at cheating. Some of these gold medals are never returned.

Posted by: jim | August 18, 2008 3:01 PM | Report abuse

If the Chinese cannot be trusted to conduct themselves in an open and fair manner in an Olympics they themselves host how can they be trusted in other venues and in other more serious matters?

Posted by: Birddog | August 18, 2008 3:02 PM | Report abuse


Of course Johnson & Liukin are gracious when asked for their thoughts by reporters who will then plaster their responses all over the media. Do you think they're going to say how they really feel? "It's a total *bleeping* rip off, that's how I *bleeping* feel, you *bleeping* moron."

Posted by: Darla | August 18, 2008 3:06 PM | Report abuse

hey kathy.

you example is vague... if you want an answer please provide a bit more detail...

barring that information..

No It Not Fair.....

hey Jim,

rhetoric??? or sarcasm???

I fail to see how listing cheaters that were CAUGHT would classify them as being the BEST cheaters!!!!!

and again... the FIG and IOC have stated they will not even request additional information to confirm or dispel the evidence with regards to the disputed birth dates...

Thats a Get out of Jail Free card..... wish I had one of those....

Posted by: talontbo | August 18, 2008 3:07 PM | Report abuse

Ok folks, I'm a Brit so I don't have a dog in this fight. Let me just say how this discussion looks like to the rest of the world. First of all, there's a lot of misinformation out there and if you just read a few of the educated posts explaining the rules, the outcome should not be disputed. To say that the judges planned this ahead of time is ridiculous. It could have easily gone the other way. And for those of you who aren't swayed by facts and want to complain about scoring, then you shold also be in favor of taking away Paul Hamm's all around gold medal and awarding it to the Korean gymnast who was inadvertently given a lower starting value. That mistake cost him the gold in the last Olympics. Fair is fair, right?

As far as the whole cheating thing is concerned, America has no moral authority to be lecturing the rest of the world about fair play. Are you all equally outraged about the doping scandals plaguing track and field in your country that helped you to win so many gold medals in the last several Olympics? Your hands are not clean either and the more you scream about it, the sillier it makes you look. So lay off the Chinese, get off your high horse, and stop throwing stones in your glass houses.

Posted by: UK777 | August 18, 2008 3:08 PM | Report abuse

Alicia Sacramone was cheated out of the bronze medal for the vault. So she screwed up in the team event. She did well with her vault. That Chinese chick fell all the way down to the ground and still got the bronze medal. If that isn't cheating, what is?

And I know for sure no one was cheating for the Chinese with the floor routine. The Chinese competitor sucked. And it showed with her score too. No way to bribe your way out of that one. Felt sorry for her though. She started crying because she knew she was on her way to Chinese jail for losers. So sad.

Posted by: dcp | August 18, 2008 3:09 PM | Report abuse

Agreed talontbo. Who knows if this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Marion Jones
Justin Gatlin
Timothy Montgomery
Kelli White
Calvin Harrison
Alvin Harrison
Dennis Mitchell
Chryste Gaines
Antonio Pettigrew

Posted by: jim | August 18, 2008 3:11 PM | Report abuse


do you even know what you saying???

of course the IOC should have rectified the scoring to correct ITS MISTAKE!!!!

This was not Hamm's or the Koreans Fault nor was it the U.S. Olympic Teams Fault...

as for the U.S. Cheating... Those Athletes do not have the support of Americans... we don;t send them letters saying its okay to Dope It Up.. or call them in the wee hours of the night and whisper in their ears... Take Drugs.. Take Drugs..

Don't assume you have the pulse of Americans thoughts on this matter...

Most Americans hate Cheaters... especially when they are the recipients of the cheating....

But as we can all agree... GETTING CAUGHT is what brings the punishment...

and in this case...

The Evidence is being ignored... simple.. true...

so.. how would you feel..

If... the U.S. beat GB in an event.. and it was determined that the U.S. Cheated....

But the IOC declined to even investigate...

They simply said.. "hey GB... to bad... we don't have the time nor the desire to follow up... you lost.. live with it..."

you jab at Cheating U.S. Athletes was a poor example...

of course they should be caught, stripped of their medal.. and to some degree disgraced.. as they usually are...

some have even suffer jail time for perjury because of other investigations... CONDUCTED WITHIN THE U.S. by U.S. OFFICIALS...

so take your non participant dog home.. bath it... teach it some manners....

Posted by: Talontbo | August 18, 2008 3:21 PM | Report abuse


We don't just scream at other nation's athletes, we scream at our own athletes when they are caught cheating. Look at our recent issues with baseball players and doping. Even the ones who were using substances not specifically prohibited were eviscerated in the media and on blogs, if memory serves. The NFL, NBA, MLB all had to institute strict anti-doping policies in response to scandals, as I recall, because Americans don't like athletes who have to cheat to win. When college athletic departments are caught doping, they usually get nailed to the cross by the NCAA.

I see no problem with throwing stones at other people's glass houses as long as we're willing to throw stones at our own.

Posted by: matt | August 18, 2008 3:30 PM | Report abuse

Here's what Carl Lewis said of the USOC:

Carl Lewis has broken his silence on allegations that he was the beneficiary of a drugs cover-up, admitting he had tested positive for banned substances but claiming he was just one of "hundreds" of American athletes who were allowed to escape bans.

"There were hundreds of people getting off," he said. "Everyone was treated the same."

Lewis has now acknowledged that he failed three tests during the 1988 US Olympic trials, which under international rules at the time should have prevented him from competing in the Seoul games two months later.

The admission is a further embarrassment for the United States Olympic Committee, which had initially denied claims that 114 positive tests between 1988 and 2000 were covered up. It will add weight to calls by leading anti-doping officials and top athletes for an independent inquiry into the US's record on drug issues.

Posted by: jim | August 18, 2008 3:34 PM | Report abuse

i don't think UK777 was referring to the Hamm vs. the korean guy issue as the U.S's fault. they're just pointing out that unfair stuff DOES happen, and sometimes it happens in our favor and sometimes it doesn't, but it's beyond our control. that was just an example, since many people on here feel that the U.S was treated unfairly.

talontbo- i also feel that your view on americans is a lot more innocent than what it really is. I think it's great that you believe MOST americans hate cheaters, but the fact is there are a lot of U.S athletes that do cheat in the olympic games by doping, and still win their gold medals. I know you are not condoning this behavior, but the fact is they were still americans and represented us. I know YOU are not blaming the chinese athletes themselves, but instead are blaming the officials who are not investigating, but a lot of people on here ARE. but the whole non-investigating issue is also beyond our control. bottom line is, nothing has been proved and probably won't be. it's just best to drop it.

Posted by: damn | August 18, 2008 3:42 PM | Report abuse

the Tie Break..

This Procedure was finalized in 2006.. and is currently the only method used... its FACT and it is FIRM

A Start Value...
B.. 6 judges... opinions.. scores...

Low and High removed... leaving 4

First tie break.. add all 4... The Were The Same

Second Tie Break.. Remove High Score and add the 3 Low scores then Average...

Nastia Lost... Accepted... these are the rules...

And yet..

If the FIG and IOC had the Balls to Investigate the allegations before them and the world..

It is highly likely the 1 or more of the Chinese Womens Gymnastic Team would not meet the Requirements needed to Compete...

The FIG and IOC have accepted without question the Birth Dates provided for on the Passports of these 3 girls...

And they have ignored published evidence to the contrary...Statements by Chinese Government Officials.. Chinese Gymnastics Documents... to name 2 sources...

IGNORED THEM... arbitrarily deciding no further investigation is warranted...

this sullies every single athlete from every participating country.. it damages the IOC and FIG credibility... and casts a very dark shadow on what otherwise has been an exceptional Olympics...

China is to be commended for providing one of the most visually exciting displays of National Pride yet seen in a modern Olympics..

and yet.. something as tiny as 3 small children, that they sponsored, and more than likely knew, were not eligible to compete... could cause such a Loss of Face..

how so very sad for such an extraordinary nation, with such a rich and diverse culture and history..

I wonder.. how many people out there really realize how much Americans respect and admire China and its people....

Posted by: talontbo | August 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Report abuse

People not believing Iris. You are wrong and Iris is 100% correct.
My wife is Chinese. She looks 10 years younger then her age. Her sister is 38 years old, 5' 1" tall, weighs 91 pounds and is CARDED EVERY SINGLE TIME she wants to get into a bar or buy alcohol.
Plus, NONE of the judges were Chinese!! So how in the wolrd did the Chinese cheat?
I hope and pray most of you don't have children. If you do you are setting a very poor example.

Posted by: dw | August 18, 2008 3:52 PM | Report abuse

hey damn

to a great degree I do not blame the athletes.. especially athlete from nation with a more rigid structure than we are accustom to...

and yet. the Athletes Olympic Oath must not be forgotten... it hold the athletes accountable... its their medal.. not China's.. if it must be returned... they return it...

That said.. that same oath in some measure shields the sponsoring nation... with regards to that type of cheating... Doping in particular...

This is entirely a different matter...

The evidence tends to support a direct Government Cover-up... and we have to believe He Kexin knows when she was born....

keep in mind.. this effects..

The Team results the All Around and the Individuals...

thats a lot of other young girls effected.. not just the U.S. team... and it cast further doubt to the lengths China would have gone in other events...

A passport is a Government Issued Document...

This is not a personal trainer or back alley HGH pusher... this is not a lab doctoring the results of a urine test... Passports are supposed to be secure documents... accepted by nations across the globe...

I wonder... if I filed for a passport.. knowing submitting falsified supporting documents... and received a passport... only to be exposed at a later date... How much trouble I would be in???

and yet it appears... China has no problem doing this for one of their athletes...

This is not one of their spies.... its a child.... for a competition.... there are no national secrets to be gained... just a little gold plated disc with pretty images on it...

how sad...

Posted by: talontbo | August 18, 2008 4:03 PM | Report abuse


that statement IRIS made is just plain common sense..

we all know this... and not unlike many people around the world...

people look younger than their years.. or older... or the look their age... and Age/Weight Guesser at the Carney will tell you the same thing...

It not about how they look.....

its about the Evidence.... READ.....

if.. after you have viewed the available documents you still feel the FIG and IOC were correct in not instituting an Official Investigation...

well... if ever I am in court.. I truly hope you don;t draw jury duty....

Posted by: talontbo | August 18, 2008 4:09 PM | Report abuse

The "obscure tie breaker" is the in the paragraph...

"The second computation finally separated the scores, with He prevailing because three of the four judges whose scores counted among a panel of six judges (after the highest and lowest scores were tossed) took fewer deductions for her execution (an average of 0.933 points) than comparable judges deducted for Liukin's execution (0.966 points)."

In other words, although the "total" score was tied, He won because she had a better score with three of the four remaining judges...

For you NFL fans, think everything is equal except when you get to your "the records of your opponents' opponents".

Posted by: Bill | August 18, 2008 4:16 PM | Report abuse

talontbo, at this point, you're just ranting. I think you should stop now.

Posted by: Bill | August 18, 2008 4:23 PM | Report abuse

hey Bill..

to funny,,,, pretty sure though.. its not quite that dramatic... LOL..

then again.. if as has been alleged... The Olympians birth date in question are indeed wrong...

would there really have been a need for a tie breaker..???

the FIG and IOC don't have the 2 Minute Warning Rule..

seems we won't get Instant Replay.. to investigate the overwhelming evidence that at the very least... He Kexin is actually 14yrs 8mnths old....

Posted by: talontbo | August 18, 2008 4:24 PM | Report abuse

I am disappointed again and again by reading all the sour-grape posts here. Every one conveniently left out the fact that Liukin had an obvious error when came down the bars while Yang Yilin, who won bronze medal, performed perfectly and still scored lower than Liukin. Just review the video and see for yourself.

For your information, the Chinese people are genuinely rooting for Shawn Johnson, and why? Simply because she shows the true sportmanship, and is always holds her dignity, never whining, looking for excuses, or blaming her loss on anyone else.

As to the home court advantage, anyone who has watched the gymastics video, will notice that the audiance were silence when gymnasts from other country competed, but often yelled and screamed when China gymasts performed. So who had the advantage, indeed?

Ok, show some grace now.

Posted by: native beijinger | August 18, 2008 4:33 PM | Report abuse

Assuming that the age restrictions are to protect the athletes, it seems like the best solution would be alter the events such that they are geared toward older athletes. The current sport seems optimized for young teenagers due to the high emphasis on flexibility and lightness. By raising the heights of some of the apparatus and increasing the focus on strength instead of flexibility, the ideal age would rise significantly. Men's gymnastics doesn't run into the age issue because strength is such an important component.

Posted by: Commentator | August 18, 2008 4:43 PM | Report abuse

To everyone who says there is no proof, please look at

And it's not the fact that we are complaining because the US won silver and not gold, we are complaining because China blatantly broke the rules. I'm not even american, im actually chinese but born in Canada, but I am still utterly dissapointed in China.

Posted by: jd2008 | August 18, 2008 4:48 PM | Report abuse

If the Chinese cannot be trusted to conduct themselves in an open and fair manner in an Olympics they themselves host how can they be trusted in other venues and in other more serious matters?

Posted by: Birddog | August 18, 2008 5:07 PM | Report abuse

While I agree that some of the complaining on here has gotten a bit out of hand and that we should all follow the example of Johnson and Liuken, two of the most sportsmanlike people I've ever seen, I take issue with the fact that people call this "typical American whining" and that we're just "a country of sore losers." This discussion would be going on in any other country in the same boat. You don't think the Serbs are b*tching about the Michael Phelps finish over Cavic? Did the Canadians not rightfully get outraged during the ice skating scandal? (And weren't we all outraged along with them?) Did a wrestler (can't remember what country) not DROP HIS MEDAL in the middle of the ceremony last week in protest?!? Intense discussion of sport is not solely an American phenomenon. It's human nature.

Posted by: sunny | August 18, 2008 5:16 PM | Report abuse

Most of these comments by whining jingoists, who seem to completely lack any semblance of the Olympic ideals, are indeed embarrassing, but hardly surprising. Of course, had the situation been reversed and the American athlete won the gold medal through the tiebreaker process, this probably would not have even been reported in this paper. I think to some extent, the media is to blame, the "coverage" by "The Washington Post" and probably other media sources in this country have been shamefully excessively nationalistic.

The person who commented about China being a communist country, having socialized medicine is out of date by about thirty years. China is ruled by the Communist party, but the economic system is capitalism. Health care coverage for all Chinese has not existed for at least a couple decades, a result of rampant capitalism. China is similar to the contemporary United States with little protection for unions, worker's rights and the environment. Fewer people, percentage of the population, have health care coverage there than in the United States.

Posted by: Independent | August 18, 2008 5:17 PM | Report abuse

Well said, Independent. You hit the nail on the head. I wish everyone would stop whining. I'm waiting for Bela to blow a gasket tonight. BTW, I thought Shawn Johnson had the better (and more difficult) floor routine compared to the Romanian girl and should have won the gold. Bela didn't seem to have a problem with it though. I guess that's because she was Romanian and not Chinese.

Posted by: JoshB | August 18, 2008 5:49 PM | Report abuse

Why can't they stop talking about the age of the chinese girls what the heck does that matter their better and anyways if you guys don't know the chinese people look younger then their age i can proof it to you because one of there actresses named angela zhang is 26 and looks like she is 6 years younger and only weighs 88lbs.Go to dramawiki most of their actresses look younger than they are and weigh less than 90lns. So come on u.s.a learn to lose someone had to win don't tell me the chinese have bought all the judges in all the categories if you haven't notice china has the most gold metal so all i can say is if the americans wouldn't of lost they would of not complain the americans are just don't no how to lose and can't believe that there are better people then them. Good job CHINA KEEP GOING. (oh i am a mexican american) but i still go for china.

Posted by: Joy | August 18, 2008 6:08 PM | Report abuse

Mathematically, the results were due to the new scoring system and not cross-board judging bias.

He won because none of the judges placed her last relative to Liukin and Yang. Some judges favored Liukin's style the best and two of them favored Yang's style over both He and Liukin. He pulled above Liukin by a fraction. Can't you Americans do the math?

Even though she stuck her landing, Liukin had a lot of leg separations and her pak was a little off. Her legs split a little too: easily .3 off there.

If you ask me, Yang got jipped out of the gold. Her performance was the cleanest. Either way, Liukin would have wound up with SILVER.

All this vitriol makes me sad. Do the Americans not remember the boost they got in 1996 in Atlanta? And how the Russians were favored in 1980? And the Greeks on rings finals in Athens? Crap happens in gymnastics. It's the way of the sport.

Posted by: Third Party Canadian | August 18, 2008 6:58 PM | Report abuse

You said it, JoshB. Bela was born in Romania, so of course he didn't have a problem with the Romanian girl winning over Shawn Johnson. Shawn definitely did a better job. What a hyprocrit Bela is!

Posted by: tsk | August 18, 2008 7:14 PM | Report abuse

hey independent,

Let's assume, then, that China does not have socialized medicine. You're telling me that for their Olympic gymnastics team - when China pulls girls out of kindergarten to start training them as gymnasts - those girls will not have health records? Do you honestly expect anybody to believe that? That China, who has invested years and God-only-knows how many dollars into turning into an Olympic powerhouse, will not provide health care to their athletes?

Oh, and joy,
It does not seem as if you consider yourself an American, "if the americans wouldn't of lost they would of not complain the americans are just don't no how to lose and can't believe that there are better people then them.", despite your claim to being a Mexican-American. It would seem, from your language, you consider yourself Mexican (or something other than American). Please feel free, then, to emigrate to whatever country you most identify with and enjoy the fruits of their society. Us Americans certainly wouldn't want you to suffer the indignity of living amongst us.

Posted by: matt | August 18, 2008 8:14 PM | Report abuse

The sour grapes are everywhere. The US has organized more Olympics games than any other country. So naturally they have got the most favors than any other country. This is China's first. And I think the judges are more consistent than the 1996 Atlanta games or 1988 Seoul games. Can you loose with some grace?

Posted by: Charlie1111 | August 18, 2008 8:20 PM | Report abuse

The Americans helped form this tie breaker rule after Atlanta. They only complain when American interests are at stake, eh?

I personally think the tie breaker rule shouldn't exist, but honestly, get over yourselves. You're not getting the gold back. Feel free to whine up to London and there will be a re-match. Hopefully the Western venue will douse these bias claims, although I'm sure they're bound to surface again if the US is trumped by China.

Posted by: Joker | August 18, 2008 8:27 PM | Report abuse

The athletes are not to blame, since both Luikin and He Kexin both gave breathtaking performances and tied. The OIC in its great brilliance decided not to award two gold medals and came up with a little known and understood formula to "correct" the situation. Of course it looked suspicious to the rest of us.
The answer in my opinion is to award two gold medals which would correct many errors. Consider the Paul Hamm situation who was awarded the gold, but later, the South Koreans protested, however belately, that their representative scored higher. Their athlete never received a gold medal whch in fact he actually deserved. A second gold should have been awarded to the Korean, but the IOC denied it. And they tried to embarrass Hamm into returning the gold, their mistake.
What if Cavic, the swimmer who lost to Phelps by 1/100th of a second had tied. Would he have gotten a gold medal?

Posted by: Fred | August 18, 2008 8:30 PM | Report abuse

Some said that the Russian judge gave China the high score. The truth is that, the Australian judge gave He three tenth more than Nastia. Is Australia an ally of the US?

Posted by: Charlie1111 | August 18, 2008 8:39 PM | Report abuse

There are two posts earlier by Brandon, a former gymnist, that bear reading and come from an athletes prospective. Thank you Brandon.
Fred Worth Greenville NC

Posted by: Fred | August 18, 2008 8:46 PM | Report abuse

what drivel. americans scare me. grow up.

Posted by: foreigner | August 18, 2008 8:57 PM | Report abuse


Posted by: 小胖 | August 18, 2008 9:04 PM | Report abuse

Who were the specific judges for each gymnist in each tie breaker? If they weren't all the same for each gymnist in both tie breakers then it isn't a fair tie breaker as we know that judges scores often vary sometimes based on what country the gymnist might be from (hence the highest and lowest thrown out in regular competion scoring to prevent purposely inflated or deflated scoring).

Posted by: John | August 18, 2008 9:06 PM | Report abuse

I am tired of whining "Americans" and defensive "Chinese". Its just a game and a decision had to be made. This year it was the "Chinese" athlete, next year it will be somebody elses' athlete. Somebody take nationalism and flush down the toilet, please and just enjoy the games!!!!

Posted by: Bored | August 18, 2008 9:27 PM | Report abuse

In two weeks all this will be forgotten...

Posted by: Yawnnnnnnnnn | August 18, 2008 9:42 PM | Report abuse

to all those saying the americans are sore losers, the chinese age question was brought up before the olympic games. it has just gotten more media coverage since the outcome of the team finals.

rules are rules. if a gymnast was caught with steroids, they would be stripped of their medal. if you are going to break the rules, you also have to accept the consequences.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 18, 2008 10:16 PM | Report abuse

I don't think the chinese necessarily are getting an unfair advantage explicitly...but since they're the home team, the crowd must explode every time they land. That must influence the judges' decision, hearing such a positive reaction to everything the chinese gymnasts do.

Posted by: Shyam | August 18, 2008 10:31 PM | Report abuse

Shame so manay Americans are even not able to accept a lose in a Game, a saying goes "who cannot lose who cannot win", let's see who laughs in the last.

Really sorry that a country can only enjoy others lose but not enjoy the human being's achiement, there are plenty of moments in the games deserves everyones cheer.
Poor narrow minded Americans. Sorry for u.

Posted by: sorryUSA | August 18, 2008 10:43 PM | Report abuse

Cry, American babies, just cry... losers' mindsets, so much similar to what some defeated chinese athletes and officials did 20 years ago, that's, whenever losing, it's judges, home court biases, British imperialism, American hegemony, blahblah.. to blame for. Losing is losing....

Posted by: Chinese Translator | August 18, 2008 10:46 PM | Report abuse

In this post, it sounds like all Chinese medals were made by judes favour. People should understand every participants in the games have done the same efforts if not more as Americans.

Look around the crowds, people were cheering for Phelps and American basketball team, and Jamica' Bolt 100 m ... but people here in the blog is only feeling sad and angry and imaging Chinese is doing everything to cheat.

Looking back to the previous Olympics, China won 32 gold in Anthens, were those all given by cheating. Use your brain, and try to learn from others ! how they strugle in the western bias and unfair treatment.

I really hate Americans blinded eyes and narrow thoughts.

Posted by: aiya | August 18, 2008 10:53 PM | Report abuse

American baby, go back to school and learn there isn't ONE country called USA in this world, there are other countries and races who are not worse than Americans...

Posted by: Gerge Bush | August 18, 2008 10:59 PM | Report abuse

Is anyone really surprised by this? China is notorious for doing whatever it takes, cheat, lie, doesn't matter.

Posted by: Lisa Young | August 18, 2008 11:20 PM | Report abuse

I believe two should gold instead of one. This is a joke. I am starting a pettion and sign it if you think that this is unfair!

Posted by: Alec F | August 18, 2008 11:33 PM | Report abuse

I'm about tired of watching the scoring going on in women's gymnastics. The Chinese female that landed ON HER KNEES during her vault, still medaled knocking Alicia out of medal range! NOW, Nastia had the cleaner bar routine and she takes second due to a STUPID ASS tie breaker kindergarteners could've came up with! It shouldn't have even been a tie!

Whatever, I'm not interested in watching a bunch of cheaters!

Posted by: Jenesia | August 18, 2008 11:40 PM | Report abuse

I'm not going to read all of this... Basically she lost because she had a higher lowest score. This is very wrong if you ask me. And just to let you all know, i'm not american.

Posted by: G-man | August 18, 2008 11:45 PM | Report abuse

I am Chinese. I am proud. While as you want. Losers whiners.

US is the greatest country in the world and in the history of HUMANITY!! There have been never right abuse in US history.

All people in Iraq died because they were stupid and foolish, or just inferior!!

American have never done anything wrong.. They will end up in Heaven!!

China has been trough a lot.. a really lot.. the lesat thing China needs is to pay attention to the BULLXXXX from you guys. I am thrilled that China, indeed, don't give a darn to your twisted mind..

I hope you whine more in the coming years. I will enjoy it a lot..

Posted by: TimPA | August 18, 2008 11:50 PM | Report abuse

Write to the USOC and ask them to demand an investigation. If the Chinese have nothing to hide, it will be clear, and all will be well. If not, the appropriate winners deserve their medals.

If the US were in question, the investigation would already be underway.

Posted by: Write to them | August 18, 2008 11:51 PM | Report abuse

Hi I am Marion Jones.. I cheated.. and I am sorry... LOLOLOL..

Who knows.. Phelps might be just a big doper.. he just beats the testing system ..

Posted by: TimPA | August 18, 2008 11:54 PM | Report abuse

Every medal of US is 100% from hard work or the born genius.

All other country's medal is questionable.

Jamaica, there is no way, should have won both 100m sprints. We should investgate them.. Those medals are made for US..

Posted by: TimPA | August 18, 2008 11:57 PM | Report abuse

My family is from China, and we all believe that this was unfair for the US. The gymnastics scores have been questionable and suggestive of foul play. This is coming from someone who has strong feelings of pride for his own cultural background. Don't call me an American baby. Thanks.

Posted by: Sean | August 19, 2008 12:03 AM | Report abuse

TimPa, I am sorry you share different opinions than me but that is not a good reason to spam immature comments on this discussion. The US is an entire nation of people. If you like to generalize a whole nation as you are doing now, maybe you wouldn't complain when people generalize all of China as well? I hate both circumstances so please be a little more empathetic.

Posted by: Sean | August 19, 2008 12:08 AM | Report abuse

Sigh, it saddens me to see many non-Americans automatically call all Americans short sighted and unsportsmanlike. The truth is, I could care less if Americans win. I consider myself more Chinese than American. I still can see the difference between right and wrong. This was wrong, no doubt about it. If I was He Kexin I would have doubts about my gold medal. I understand she is a remarkable athlete but I wouldn't be happy with such a controversial victory. I'd rather have gone toe to toe with Nastia.

Posted by: Sean | August 19, 2008 12:22 AM | Report abuse

Only Americans seem to be having difficulty understanding the tiebreaking system. Products of the American Education System? The education system that the US courts have *explicitly* stated is NOT to educate, but to **indoctrinate** American youth?

It's pretty simple: Star with 6 judges, the highest and lowest scores are thrown out, and the average of the remaining scores is the final execution score.

If there's a tie, then the lowest remaining score is thrown out and the remaining 3 are used.

What's so difficult to understand about that? What's so complicated? A third grader should be able to take the six scores and figure out not only the final score, but the tiebreaker, and yet American adults think it's too complex?

By any tiebreaking standard you use, He Kexin won.

Using all 6 scores: Kexin wins 54.3 (9.050) to Liukin 54.2 (9.033)

Tossing out highest and lowest (official scoring used): Kexin ties 36.1 (9.025), Liukin 36.1 (9.025)

Tossing out highest and two lowest (official tiebreaker used): Kexin wins 27.2 (9.067), Liukin 27.1 (9.033)

Tossing out highest and 3 lowest: Kexin wins 18.2 (9.100), Liukin 18.1 (9.050)

Tossing out 2 highest and 2 lowest: Kexin wins 18.1 (9.050), Liukin 18.0 (9.000)

Highest scores: Kexin ties 9.3 (Australia), Liukin 9.3 (Poland)

Two highest scores: Kexin ties 18.4 (9.200), Liukin 18.4 (9.200)

Three highest scores: Kexin wins 27.5 (9.167) (Australia, Poland, Brazil), Liukin 27.4 (9.133) (Poland, Bulgaria and of Australia/New Zealand/Brazil)

Four highest scores: Kexin wins 36.5 (9.125), Liukin 36.4 (9.100)

Five highest scores: Kexin ties 45.4 (9.080), Liukin 45.4 (9.080)

Comparative: Kexin wins. 3 judges (Australia, New Zealand and South Africa) rated Kexin higher, 2 rated Liukin higher (Poland, Bulgaria), 1 tied (Brazil)

Any way you slice it, if you want to claim biased judges, you're saying the two judges from the two Anglo-Saxon countries were biased against the US.

I think that's the *least* likely scenario of any biased judging claim you want to make.

How about we take a cue from Liukin's sportsmanship and applaud ALL of these young ladies for such outstanding athleticism and grace under pressure. The US gymnasts won a whole lot of medals in the ultimate arena - we should be proud of their accomplishments instead of crying and whining that they didn't get more.

Posted by: Products of American Education | August 19, 2008 12:31 AM | Report abuse

"Products of American Education" no one is complaining about bias, but the tiebreaking system is inadequate. It would be simpler just to actually have a tiebreaker event with the two gymnasts. Why take out scores from judges making the margin of error larger and larger? Does that make sense to you? It doesn't matter if it was an American athlete that got the silver. Any poor young athlete who has this happen to them has to live with this on their mind. Thinking that they have a chance to outperform the competition but the judges say no due to new crappy rules set in place for these Olympics specifically. The truth is, taking away scores is a bad idea. The whole idea of average judging score is to minimize crappy judging. But now they're maximizing it.

Posted by: Sean | August 19, 2008 12:41 AM | Report abuse

By the way, if the roles were reversed and Nastia won gold and He won silver do you think that the whole crowd of Chinese citizens wouldn't cause an uproar and scream unfairness? If you think they'd just clap their hands you are sadly mistaken.

Posted by: Sean | August 19, 2008 12:44 AM | Report abuse

it basically comes down to simple statistics. a simple way to explain, if you have same average, then the one with less standard deviation win. for example, student A scores 100,90,85,85 ; student B scores 90,90,90,90 both end up with the same average. however studnet B has less standard deviation, which means less spread on the scores. it does help when it comes down to determine a situation such as this. it gets rid of biased opinions on the scoring systems. that's why He took the gold and Liukin took the silver.

Posted by: asp307 | August 19, 2008 1:03 AM | Report abuse

In the end they had to do the tiebreaker routine 3 times. Isn't that a bit too much? How much bias have you gotten rid of by then? In actuality this is a very lazy way about it since there already have been admittedly a few incompetent judges notably the Austrailian who was the one with the biggest range in scoring. 3/10s. Natsia keeps her score from that incompetent judge while China throws it out for scoring too high. You would think this is fair but when the other judges are rating rather consistently it is what makes Nastia lose. In all honestly, if someone put in another 1/10 in their score, Natsia would have won. Isn't that a little silly to decide this way? To have the gold and silver be decided by such a margin that was given by some judge because they're not trained in judging gymnastics or because they just had a whim?

Posted by: Sean | August 19, 2008 1:15 AM | Report abuse

wow- classic american arrogance emerging or what? We don't win so judges are biased, Chinese are bribing...the list goes on. Can you not just accept that even though the world doesn't accept many of your political decisions, they is not a conspiracy to make China receive more medals. Blatant accusations of bribery and cheating by a lot of the posts on here does nothing but further the propaganda machine you don't even realize you are a part of. Take a nap and think for yourself, and stop listening to your 'media.' Liukin has already stated that the judging has treated her fairly... hopefully one of you hops on this declaring it a coverup and further propagates an argument that should never have arisen.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 1:47 AM | Report abuse

I think our main topic should be the "tie-breaking system" here, not about the US-China relation, or US doping problems.

Anyway, I think the tie-breaking system (statistically speaking) is fair because the person with a smaller standard deviation wins. But I personally don't think there should be a tie-breaking system at all. He was great on her routine and I congratulate her. Nastia, on the other hand, also had a strong routine and I congratulate her for the gold that she should get, ignoring the tie-breaking system.

About whether Nastia had a better routine, I think the stronger cheers for the Chinese athlete might have affected the judgment a little bit. But that's just the home field advantage and US who hosted Olympic so many times shouldn't being complaining.

By the way, is it just me or did some of you also thought that Yan (the Bronze medalist) had a much cleaner routine (with the same difficulty of 7.7) than both Nastia and He?

Posted by: Canadian Dad | August 19, 2008 2:26 AM | Report abuse

Wow. It sucks that so many people on this board from others countries are putting blanket assumptions on americans as being premadonnas who expect to be given gold simply because they are american. Nastia is a sweet girl, the epitomy of class and beauty, and she was essentially robbed by a techicality. Yet you people are so full of anger and resentment toward the US that you are happy to see it happen. Lovely.

Btw, there is something distinctly vomit inducing about watching these 11-yr old Chinese girls win medals with an entire stadium full of people cheering away without remorse. I mean, the initial reaction of any person on earth not living in China is that several of the girls on the Chinese Olympic team look to be about 9 yrs old. I see some people on the board scrambling to defend China by saying that Asian people look younger than people of Western descent. I'm guessing you are the same people scrambling to explain the completely convoluted IOC scoring system. There comes a point when common sense and a sense of what is right comes into play. I don't care what technical explanations I get from you people. It is a strange, strange sight to watch a country rejoice as the rest of the world looks on in suspicion.

Posted by: Jon | August 19, 2008 3:09 AM | Report abuse

I love all of the pro chinese comments on here when china should be bowing down to america for the westernization and industrial growth it recieved. You must be blind from your eye slant if you can't see that there was obvious bias against americans in women's gymnastics.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 4:31 AM | Report abuse

Nastia a figure of grace and beauty? Come now! Her unsmiling puss and crossed arm whinging pose told the story. She lost to the better athlete. The rules were not obscure. End of story. Reading many of these comments, this country is really rotten to the core.

Posted by: jake | August 19, 2008 4:52 AM | Report abuse

Sean, you're crazy if you think "no one is complaining about bias" .. I stopped counting after 20 such complaints less than 1/4 through the page.

As for whether there should be a tiebreaker - IMO, no, but that's the way it is and it takes a pretty massive stretch to say that it was all set up to favor the Chinese.

Back to the performances, I think both Canadian Dad and Jim are correct - everyone in the stadium, including He Kexin and Nastia Liukin thought Ying Yilin had won the gold with her performance.

Having had the chance to watch them again, I noticed the announcers were highly critical of Liukin's performance *up until the score was announced* and then they did a 180.

Also, as Jim pointed out earlier, only the long step on the dismount was the difference between gold and no medal at all for Beth Tweddle.

Posted by: PoAES | August 19, 2008 4:59 AM | Report abuse

If u guys were the judges, all the olympic medals will go to american

Posted by: hahaha | August 18, 2008 10:37 AM
that got a smile out of me on a serious note though if athletes have had medals taken away for simple things like taking cold pills before a race the IOC should at least investigate the underage claims

Jake of course Nastia didn't look happy after the judging if people tie they just take out scores untill one of them is higher? sounds like a great system

Posted by: Wicky | August 19, 2008 5:59 AM | Report abuse

The person who said Americans should quit listening to our media are you chinese? because if you are you have no right to critizise the American media

Posted by: Sandfold | August 19, 2008 6:07 AM | Report abuse

I personally think, with all bias aside, that Yang Yilin (the bronze medalist from china) actually did better than both He Kexin and Liukin. She did an almost flawless routine with the same difficulty level as the other 2, AND she stuck her landing perfectly with both feet together. It just goes to show that we're not all gonna agree with the calls the judges make, but people who are saying nastia should have gotten gold over he kexin because of "less visible errors"...then what about Yang Yilin? she had less visible errors than nastia and he kexin, yet ended up with bronze. unfair? yeah, totally. but you have to understand that the unfairness is going to be felt by athletes from all countries, not just the U.S, so everyone has to deal with it. People just don't complain as much when things are unfair in their favor. but realize that everyone gets the bad end of it sometimes. unfortunately, gymnastics is scored by other people's opinions. you win some you lose some. so, please stop with all the back n forth attacks.

Posted by: it happens | August 19, 2008 10:33 AM | Report abuse

The point is... there should have never been a tie to begin with. Liukin made less mistakes and stuck the landing!! It does not get more concrete than that. And the other day during the vault, the Chinese gymnast landed on her knees and scored higher than Alicia?? The Chinese gymnast's scores have not reflected appropriate penalties. The US needs to contest these scores... and the IOC certainly needs to investigate the judging (or lack of)during these games... unless they are in on it too!!

Posted by: Kban | August 19, 2008 10:55 AM | Report abuse

I hear a lot about the vault but I thought the vault was more understandable than the tie-breaking system. Alicia had a difficulty rating of around 5.8 I believe which is ridiculous because it's 0.7 point lower then the Chinese. And since a fall is only -0.8 and the Chinese had a near perfect performance in the first try, a fall in the second try (-0.8) will still put her ahead of Alicia.

I personally thought Alicia could've won gold if she competed in other events rather than the vault, which is not her strongest event. The mistakes in qualification round and team event were costly for her...

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 12:26 PM | Report abuse

jake, there is something seriously wrong with you. liukin could not have been classier in defeat. she got completely robbed. what is wrong with you?

Posted by: jon | August 19, 2008 12:37 PM | Report abuse

I can't believe the incredible poor sports that there are represented in these comments. The idiot NBC announcer went so far as to ask of He "does she think she won the gold" as they were hanging it over her neck. Nastia is beautiful and she finished second - period! Insults like that are one reason everyone hates us. Have some class America, please!

Posted by: Moe | August 19, 2008 12:58 PM | Report abuse


What is wrong with YOU? Yang Yilin got robbed by both Liukin and He. Her difficulty level was equivalent and her execution could not have been more flawless.

But no, NBC wouldn't point this out. The Aussie judge that scored Liukin low actually scored YYL LOWER.

And the three stooges that comment on WAG should be ousted. Don't knock on the athletes. Ever. He snidely said "Does He Kexin REALLY think she deserved that medal?" just as she's bowing to accept it. Way to single her out you classless scum. And if she is as young as you seem to think, then she wouldn't really know would she?

Posted by: Third | August 19, 2008 1:03 PM | Report abuse

* Whoops, the above post was supposed to directed at Jon. Sorry Moe!

Posted by: Third | August 19, 2008 1:07 PM | Report abuse

I have to agree. Some of these comments are sickening. I have never seen as large and powerful a country act so tiny and petty. Look at your petty comments: "they are cheating cuz they're too young." Yeah, that's America all right. Never mind Lance Armstrongs doping his way to cycling victories, the Chinese are cheating. You sophmoric spoil sports should be ashamed of yourselves. America really needs an enema. This is the Olympics for chrissakes!

Posted by: Moe | August 19, 2008 1:07 PM | Report abuse

Bravo third!

Posted by: Moe | August 19, 2008 1:08 PM | Report abuse

People, there is nothing new here, the IOC has had issues for as long as I can remember (age 37). Stop watching the Judged events and the Olympics is so much enjoyable. It’s not worth the annoyance.

Posted by: Just say NO! | August 19, 2008 1:15 PM | Report abuse

Nastia Liukin is the best!!!

Posted by: zema | August 19, 2008 4:04 PM | Report abuse

You guys whining on this board every complained about how Paul Hamm got his gold medal in 2004?

Posted by: zxl01 | August 19, 2008 4:42 PM | Report abuse

Moe you can't compare the situation with Lance Armstrong at least there was an investigation into that. People are complaining more about the underage chinese gymnast because the IOC refuses to even investigate it

Posted by: Wicky | August 19, 2008 6:03 PM | Report abuse

The winner, and second place (silver medal)on the un-even bars is not the event that really should be an issue. There were several gymnasts that did very well in that event from various nations, and I think (as an american) that it wasn't really nastia luikin that got ripped off. Her score was fair, and the Chineese Girl won due to a mathematical system that whether we like it or not is in place. But, the athlete that I truly felt bad for was Sacramone, that to me seemed very unfair, I think she definetly deserved at least a Bronze for her performance on the vault. She's the one that got ripped off if anyone did! But consider this, our Girls will come home, and they will be considered superstars make millions on endorsements while the chineese ladies entire futures depend on the success or failure of a few minutes in there lifetimes. If they win, they become superstares in china. If they loose then they would probably be chastised and God knows what else could become of the rest of there lives. Remember you are talking about a country that does not have the greatest Human rights track record in the World. Feel Sorry for a Silver Medal...C'mon, how many people try there entire lifetimes and don't even qualify for a chance to go to the olympics let alone win a Gold, and Silver Medal. this still means you would be "what" Second best in the World...BOOO HOOO!

a far as age goes! Those young Ladies from China Kicked some A** does it matter how Old they are? Really do you think that in a country where there are over a billion People They all have birth certificates, I don't think so!! Now, I know Rules are rules but think about it! Americans hate to Loose, we always have, and we always will. that's whay we are the Worlds Strongest least for now!! But watch out, Chinas knockin on our door!!

Posted by: NAVRET | August 19, 2008 7:08 PM | Report abuse


Anyone knows any foreign language, esp. Chinere here? I haven't seen so much whining in any country other than American media and forums.

Reading those NYT, Washington post articles makes me wonder whether I should really continue reading them in other areas of coverage.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 8:43 PM | Report abuse

NBC and american media commentary is biased and sucks, period. And @elen, who says she will protest by boycotting anything made from China, unless you're planning to go back to the stone ages, you gotta be joking! Pretty much EVERYTHING we use nowadays is made there, from IPODS to furniture.

Posted by: John | August 20, 2008 12:17 AM | Report abuse
TradeMark Liukin Uneven Bar dismount

Posted by: FrogPrincess | August 20, 2008 4:23 AM | Report abuse

jake.. you're retarded, i hope you don't live in america. you sound like a traitor

Posted by: Anonymous | August 20, 2008 1:34 PM | Report abuse

Falsifying passports requires state sponsored, well organized cheating. In a couple cases, the athletes are too young to blame, but others around them should be banned and medals should be awarded to all legitimate competitors from all countries who would have otherwise won. I wonder, if an American Gymnast were in the same shoes, would the same people preaching tollerance of China's cheating condemn the USA? I am guessing they would from the tone of the comments.

Posted by: Justafan | August 20, 2008 3:23 PM | Report abuse

WOW.. American won beach vomitball.. Good for the pair.. but China won TWO medals.. according to American Media (count).. China is true winner on this event!!!!!
China doesn't need gold.. any medal will do!! LOL

And commentators sound like they were working for Hilter..

China and US will battle for the medal count... but when their total medal counts are close... GOLD MAKES ALL DIFFERENCE!!!
Olympics are for Champions.. not for best losers (2nd place).. otherwise everyone should be awarded gold...
Gold is different from other medals.. Thats why Phelps were hailed because all his medals are gold.. that's why someone threw his bronze away..

If US can not beat China on total count by 30 while china has 20 more gold.. well.. I shall say.. CHINA WIN BY MILE!!
GO US too!!

Posted by: timPA | August 21, 2008 12:05 AM | Report abuse

BTW, I remeber 96 Atlanta Games.. and HOW US Atheletes were treated favoribly by judges.. Much worse than Beijing games.. ONLY BECAUSE they were Americans.. everyting they did were right and fair!!

I have been to Atlanta.. The whole Olmpic site looks like a joke to me... old, small, cheap and dull.. After the games.. Atlanta is, sadly, still same crappy Atlanta.!!

News for you, the world did not revolve around US anymore.. at least not for an average Chinese guy like me...

Your whining makes my day easier.. Keep it on!!

Posted by: timPA | August 21, 2008 12:15 AM | Report abuse

Massive Cheating by China at the Olympics
There is absolutely no doubt - none, zero, zilch - that the Chinese "women's" gymnastics team featured several little girls no older than 14 years of age - two years younger than the international federation allows for competition. Online registrations of these girls list one age, their passports list another. This is blatant cheating - no other word for it.
Guess which one the federation is taking as correct?
Half of the team - He Kexin, Yang Yilin, Jiang Yuyuan - would be under age, according to online sports registration lists in China. The international gymnastics federation, however, said those gymnasts were eligible and that the ages on their passports were correct...
Because China and the United States competed on the same events each rotation, it was easier to notice differences in their body types. The Chinese gymnasts lack curves, have an average height of 4 feet 9 inches and weigh an average of 77 pounds. Deng is the smallest, at 4-6 and 68 pounds. The women on the United States team, generally more muscular and shapely than the Chinese, are an average of 3 ½ inches taller and 30 pounds heavier.
Allah at Hot Air calls it is reminiscent of the 1972 basketball finals where the eastern bloc referee gave the Russians three chances to win in the last seconds. He goes on:
The event in which the Chinese blew the U.S. team away? The uneven bars - perfectly suited, per NPR's reporter, for smaller, lighter girls. So egregious is this fraud, in fact, that even NBC's not shying away from it.
Check out the video of legendary coach Bela Karolyi making his case.
Meanwhile, the cheating has not been confined to the gymnastics venue - not by a long shot:
Claims of questionable officiating and even cheating flared Wednesday with the Olympic gymnastics, shooting and boxing competitions coming under fire.
Australian veteran shooter Russell Mark alleged that Chinese judges, influenced by a boisterous home crowd, helped local hope Hu Binyuan win the Double Trap bronze medal.
Mark, 44, the Atlanta Games gold medalist who finished fifth in the event here, told Australian media those local judges had awarded a hit to Hu even though he missed the target.
"One of them clearly he missed," Mark was quoted as saying. "I don't think anyone out there thought he hit it. If that had been for a gold medal, I would have been protesting."
Judging controversies have also blighted the boxing tournament.
China's Gu Yu caused an upset by defeating Joe Murray, the bantamweight world bronze medalist, on Tuesday but afterwards his camp was adamant he had been on the receiving end of some questionable verdicts.
They implied that the home fighter had been favored.
"I knew what it was going to be like. I've been watching the scoring the past few days and I knew it was bad. So I was expecting it," Murray said.
"They were giving him points for anything but when I was hitting him they were not giving me points," he said.
British head coach Terry Edwards added: "I thought they were very generous to the Chinese lad. You expect a slight bias but you come to the Olympic Games and you also expect a level playing field."
The one outstanding thing about these Olympics I can report is that they are a massive dud as far as number of people showing up to watch. Most venues are half empty or worse.
Maybe people just don't like to see athletic contests that a rigged.
-Rick Moran

Posted by: Massive Cheating by China at the Olympics | August 21, 2008 8:57 AM | Report abuse

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