Why are we doing this again???????????????

Ask your child to search the clouds for dragons, flying elephants and unicorns.

It's a great way to encourage your child to look up, use their imagination and get them to tell you what they are thinking.

Somebody suggest a new topic for today, please!!

Ajax, that is not in the spirit of a culture of responsibility. Why not suggest an alternate topic yourself?

What is everyone's favorite Christmas cookie?

How about worst in-law (or own parent)xmas experience??

Well, I promised updates on the pregnancy, so this seems as good a time as any. So far so good. Things have been pretty uneventful. I began to have bouts of queasiness, food aversions, and smell sensitivites about two weeks ago. It isn't awful, but there are some foods and smells that just repulse me now. But it seems to be subsiding, which has me a little worried. My breasts are also very tender and I can only tolerate a sports bra right now. I know, this is too much information, but heck, it's an anonymous blog. Went to the doctor. He took some blood tests and will find out in a few days if the hcg levels are rising properly. Have a referral to genetic specialists who will do some screening tests later on. I plan on doing a nuchal translucency test at about 11 weeks, and then decide about amnio or CVS. Hope I get that far, although I am not particularly relishing going through those screenings as it could always be bad news. What to do if bad news? Well, that's the hardest part. If it turns out the fetus had Downs or some other serious chromasomal disorder, I would probably terminate the pregnancy. This is hard to type, but in theory at least, I can't see another choice for myself. But I am hopeful this won't happen, and that all will be normal, and that a few weeks from now, I will be able to exhale. Holding my breath like this is hard.

Brian

The Parenting Manifesto Project isn't collective wisdom, it's collective typing.

Well I agree that eating or drinking anything on a plane is a way to arrive looking messy, but why not sippy cups on a plane?

It's not like the pizza place at the beach where any drink given to a kid comes in a cup with a lid.

Emily, hang in there -- speaking as someone who has gone through all of that worry and medical testing and procedures, I know how you feel, and it's not fun. Especially when people tell you that you need to relax because your stress will harm the baby! (as if adding massive guilt over feeling stressed doesn't ratchet up the stress level) But you come across as a very strong person, and I have faith that you WILL make it through whatever happens.

YOu want a new topic -- here goes:

Is it appropriate to mention your politics in the holiday newsletter/Christmas card? Should I be able to tell from your holiday missive:
-Who you voted for in the last election?
-How you feel about stem cell research?
-Your personal feelings about the war in Iraq (usually politely couched as "I feel it's somewhat ironic that I'm wishing you Peace on Earth and Goodwill to Men while simultaneously our heartless president sends our blameless young men off to die . . ")

Just curious. I don't like it. I think it's inappropriate -- though I expect a number of you will say "Of course it's appropriate if it's important to you and you're really committed to the cause, etc. etc. etc." have at it!

Just couldn't think of a good topic and thought I'd ask the rest of you.

Emily: I agree with Laura. Hang in there. I was so scared before my sonogram. Never did the amino because I was under 35. Missed the CVS test because did not realize I was pregnant till 4 weeks later. But what my Dr told me is that 97% of all pregnant women give birth to healthy normal children. Hang in there and know we are pulling for you and your baby.

I love the in law X-mas topic. I will start it. My in laws seem to think my favorite color is sage green. Where they get this, I don't know. But for the last 3 years, I have recieved sage green sweaters. 2 of the sweaters were exactly identical given two years apart. I finally told DH to tell his mother I have quite enough sage green sweaters. So what arrives in the mail yesterday. Not a sage green sweater but a sage green blanket. Hmm, what ever happened to not exchanging adult gifts? I had gifts when people feel obligated to spend money and still get you something totally terrible. But now I am sounding ungrateful. I need to think of all the poor people who don't have a sage green blanket. I think I will donate it to charity next month, so I can feel better about myself. :)

I would probably leave the politics out of my newsletters because I know that by including the politics, I would be offending at least a few dear friends and relatives, which defeats the point of the newsletter. Most of us have friends and family who hold different political viewpoints. In my family, we are at least aware of this, and during the holidays and most other gatherings, we just don't go there. It's not worth the shout fest that can ensue.

Don't worry, Ajax, I was 99% just kidding around.

Wait a minute. Emily is saying that if her baby has Down Syndrome she would probably terminate the pregnancy? Is there more to her story than in this paragraph (i.e. she is currently taking care of other children with debilitating diseases?) I have worked with and volunteered with many children and adults with Down Syndrome and they are wonderful people who bring joy those around them. I cannot believe in this day and age with all that we know and the treatment/educational opportunities available someone would still think to terminate a pregnancy because of Down Syndrome. That is sick.

You can put away the torches and pitchforks ... this is the last manifesto post. I've appreciated the effort of everyone who took the time to write down what had worked for them, and I wanted to share that.

Thanks to those interested in having a constructive discussion today.

I guess I'm overly sensitive, being a Non-American and all.

Nope armchair mom I don't want to know about that stuff either. We got a newsletter from a family friend detailing her son's divorce, infidelity included. Add it to the list of thing I don't want to know .

9:51: Hey, that is really uncalled for. That is Emily and her husband's decision. People have a hard enough time making those type of choices without hearing ugly thoughts from strangers. BTW, I don't think that would ever be my choice but I don't interfere with other people's LEGAL choices.

New Topic: Santa, is anyone ready to just say there is no santa to your kids - here are your gifts and be done with the whole chirade?

My child is 2.5 and we are celebrating an advent christmas and I am giving her small gifts everyday (to make the holiday less overwhelming) saying they are from santas elve. The big santa comes on christmas.

Ajax,
As an American (citizen of the birthplace of political correctness, sensitivity training, and whininess) I find your comment SO ironic. Maybe you are more American than you think...

I actually knew someone would be upset by the decision to terminate if Downs or some other problem. That's okay. I do think it is an intensely personal decision, and I am not offended or upset by knowing that it upsets others. I don't take it lightly, and have though long and hard about it. It is an upsetting decision, hard to think about. But again, intensely personal. People are entitled to their opinions, and luckily, I have come to a place where these opinions don't have much of an impact on me.

Why take the magic out of Christmas? They find out soon enough. I think there's no harm in believing in Santa, elves, guardian angels, whatever. Children's imagination is pretty vivid anyway, including invisible friends and whatnot.

It isn't "sick" to terminate a kid with Downs' - just because you've worked with highly-functioning ones doesn't mean that's in store for all parents. People sometimes think long & hard about this question and don't need someone who has chosen to work in that field (and is thereby implicitly ok with such a disability) harping on them.

I agree foamgnome it wouldn't be my choice either, at least, I think it wouldn't. I have never been faced with that choice, so I feel that I can't judge others.

There are lots of things to think about when making that choice. What will happen to that child when you die? Who will take care of them? Can you manage the daily life with a special needs child, could your husband or significant other? Lot's of questions and I don't think it is something that we should judge other people for on a blog.

I have a 2.5 year old as well and we are not doing the Santa thing. Santa is more just a decoration of Christmas - this is what I had as a kid too.. you know, he is not real but is the spirit of Christmas, etc.

love the sage green story, anyone else have a weird gift story?

OS, now I'm worried you people have started rubbing off on me, after all those years :-)

Yeah, thanks to my 9 month old, the whole neighborhood knows about Santa now, since he pulled off his beard at the nieghbor's Christmas party...

There was some fast talking about Santa's helpers dressing like him, and other impromptu explanations. High comedy.

Singlemom: I actually hate the whole Santa Claus thing because it really has nothing to do with Saint Nicholas. St. Nick is the patron saint of the poor and protector of children. He did not run around giving presents to children on Christmas eve. There is a legend that he paid a young girl's dowery by dropping gold coins down a chimney that happened to fall into stockings that were drying by the fireplace. But that is really only a legend. He was very kind and did do wonderful things for poor people and children. But I always wanted to "celebrate" or honor St. Nick on December 6 (Saint. Nicholas day). I figured that would spread out the gifts and also keep some of the fun and magic of St. Nick. DH completely disagrees. He wants the stupid Coca Cola version of Santa Claus who brings MOST if not all the presents on Christmas eve as well as the stockings. It burns me every year but I concede because it makes him happy. I guess I won out with decorating the tree early (prior to Christmas eve) and taking it down before the epiphany. I like putting up the tree early because it is too busy christmas eve. Also DD likes the tree. I take it down earlier because DD's birthday is January 7.

Ajax, just out of curiosity, where are you from? Two guesses: your nick is inspired by the mythological figure, and you are Greek; or by the soccer team, and you are Dutch.

While Downs Syndrome can be diagnosed in utero, it is impossible to determine the extent of the the disability until the child is born. Some people are only mildly affected. Others are severely impaired, and may never be able to function independently.

My sister in law insists on giving us crappy homemade gifts -- not homemade from the kids -- not homemade from her -- but flea market crafty -- hey if you like that -- no problem, but come to my home -- it has no knick knacks, no clutter (aside from the mail that is taking over). We have tried repeatedly to say how about just giving to the kids -- no no -- she will have none of that. Then Thanksgiving comes around and we exchnage "lists" of what we want. My brother's list -- Wrangler jeans, an extension cord and some other crappy thing that he can buy for himself. They are not poor -- they can afford to buy jeans -- WHAT IS THIS ABOUT !!

San Antonio calls...

I hope each of you enjoys this holiday season, and takes some time to smell the frosty roses, instead of being rushed, rushed, rushed through mandatory family (and other) rituals that always seem to press to the forward.

I always take this time (like on Thanksgiving) to remember to be truly grateful for the important things in my life, and to learn to let the little stuff go.

See ya in 2007 (fattened up further, no doubt...alas)

Foamgnome,

in my family, we do celebrate St. Nicholas day on Dec 6. The custom is to put one of your shoes in front of your room's door, and St. Nicholas comes over night and leaves a (small, forcibly) present in the shoe. On the evening of Dec 24, another creature comes along - a sort of white-haired, airy angel who flies around dropping off presents magically (i.e., not through chimneys necessarily).

The decision to terminate a pregnancy under any circumstance is an intensely personal one - that I am very glad to have as a choice.

Upon finding out I was pregnant and knowing that I would be single, I felt that for me termination was not an option (I could raise a child, it would just be difficult). But I knew that it would be even more difficult if there were problems with the child, and I am not sure if I knew about them I would have been up to keeping the baby. Sad but true.

I had a little scare while pregnant - I was on Lexapro when I found out (which is not an approved drug for pregnancy), and being in a developing country the Dr did not know much about the effects of antidepressants on pregnancy and reccomended termination becuase I may have done some serious damage already to the embrio - sp (he referenced a very old book). This was on a Friday and I was only able to talk with a US Dr on Monday - very long weekend. I switched to Prozac and was told that the child should be fine. I spent that entire weekend contemplating what I should do.

Girls, wrap your collective wisdom around these facts. According to Dr. Augustine Kposowa, older men who are divorced are 10 times as likely to commit suicide as older divorced women. The primary and overwhelming reason being the loss of their children and family structure at the time of divorce. The very laws the scream queens of this country worked so hard to put in place are killing your own fathers. Merry Xmas and hug your father if he's still alive.

My crazy mil is always trying to "sophisticate" me to the tune of procelain figurines, decorative plates?, and the like. I have a mil box that I just put them all in and wonder why... why?!!

Lisa:It is about how different families view the holiday gift exchange. When I first married DH, SIL (matriach of the family-not the oldest female member but certainly the bossiest), handed me a list of "acceptable" Christmas/Birthday gifts. I was told in short if I gave a gift that was deemed unacceptable that she will donate it to charity. (I do that too but I don't tell people stuff like that). The list is funny too. Like socks is a bad gift but coffee mugs are good ones. Who knew? Then about two years ago, people started suggesting adult wish lists. Well, let me tell you, we bought off of everyone's gift list to the letter. What does foamgnome get? A sage green sweater! So I feel awful about it. I suggest every year, just gifts to the kids because really, I don't want another sage green sweater and DH doesn't need another gift card to Home Depot. But no, they don't like that idea. It takes all the fun out of Christmas they cry. Hmm, how much fun is it to open up a GC from Home Depot or your third sage green sweater? Oh well. I always tell myself, they are really not my family.

Alas, the explanation is much more mundane (I'd like to have been nicknamed after something lofty, mythological, Greek...). It's Ajax after the detergent, a nickname my cousin chose maliciously when we were little to tease me, and it stuck. I'm German. Used to like to watch Ajax Amsterdam, too, every once in a while, though.

How offensive/appropriate is it for kids to be told the Christmas story in a public school setting?

MCEWEN - perhaps divorced men kill themselves at rates much higher than women because their former wives took care of them - and they just forgot how to do it on their own. so it seems that them women are relieved not to have to take care of their exes and live longer, and the men cannot survive and kill themselves... perhaps this should have been a part of the nenandrathal discussion

"love the sage green story, anyone else have a weird gift story?"

I have a great-Aunt who is just one of those people you don't know how to describe -- it's all about her suffering, lots of guilt-inducing everywhere, etc. (example: a birthday card to me once read, Dear Laura, the doctor says my arm isn't getting better as quickly as I'd like, so he's sending me for an MRI next Thursday, and the pain is just terrible.)

But she is also the Queen of the Bad Gift -- one of the funniest parts of Christmas morning is opening the box from her. Past examples:

She knows I married a Jewish man. So the first year we were married, she sent him a Nativity Set. Mind you, she's not particularly religious herself. I guess she figured she knew he didn't have one.

But my absolute favorite gift was the toast press. It's a little plastic doohickey that you press into the toast once it comes out of the toaster, and it makes the imprint of a smiley face. The entire family was rolling on the floor, laughing over the Most Useless Gift of All Time. (of course, to truly appreciate this, you need to realize that I am about the least "craftsy" person of all time -- the only thing I even attempt to make pretty is a pie crust)

About asking for jeans and such - When people ask me for a wish list, I honestly have a hard time coming up with one, so I think of things I will use. I don't really "need" anything. Most things I want I can buy for myself. I am not into extravagant stuff, and hate to ask for anything that costs more than 30 dollars. This year, my wish list was a clock radio, some cds, books, and a giftcard to the movies. Yes, I could afford to buy them myself, but I appreciate them as gifts also.

How about my aunt who, one year, gave my 8 (!!!)-year-old brother a spaghetti-serving fork and to me, then 12 years old, a calendar issued by her local filling-station.

OK, this is starting to be funny. Laura's last post cracked me up. Who has an elderly relative that still thinks your a child? When I was in graduate school, my mother's uncle sent me a book called, "The Big Book of Facts." I think it was written for grade school children.

My grandmother is the queen of useless and entertaining gifts. They usually are the highlight of gift opening because you never know what they are going to be. I have received cards from her addressed to her "dear nephew on your birthday" (I'm her granddaughter and it is christmas) and used socks that she has picked up for a bargain!

To CapitalHill mom: Yes, it is really offensive to hear the nativity story in public school. I am really shocked in this area that would happen. They all ere on the safe side and they don't even have holiday parties anymore. Got a flyer in the Tuesday envelope announcing a Friday pajama day party. Kids wear their pjs to school and eat junk food. Couldn't they just have an end of a year party? I guess the only thing worse is one of my friend's kids told her public school kindergarten class that Santa was coming to their house to give them presents. Now her Jewish son is demanding some gifts from Santa. Sacriest thing is, the mother is running to Target tonight to get some Santa gifts.

capitol hill - very inappropriate
(side note: I went to my daughter's middle school band concert last night and for the first time since I've been a parent (my oldest is a freshman), they played Christmas songs in a public school concert. They were mostly secular, but not entirely - and since it was band and not choir, you didn't actually hear the words ;o). But still, it was very odd - and it felt like the director was thumbing his nose at the "Christmas wars".)

Emily - just out of curiosity, and since you shared so much personal about your pregnancy anyway :o) - why are you planning on so much prenatal testing, even before you have any abnormal results on the early tests? Is it because of your age, or because you have had problems with prior pregnancies? I'm just curious because most women don't automatically go to genetic specialists rather than to their OBs for prenatal tests.

How offensive/appropriate is it for kids to be told the Christmas story in a public school setting?

---

My oldest is in Kindergarten this year. They've covered Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, so it seems only fair that they address Christmas too.

Ajax, that's funny, thank you.

Odd gifts? I have been immune, but my S.O. (significant other)'s mom keeps giving him pajamas. He has slept in a t-shirt since he was, like, 15! I think this year I will actually force him to give them to the Salvation Army.

No Santa or other stupid lies for my kids. Do you lie to your kids about death?

"I suggest every year, just gifts to the kids because really, I don't want another sage green sweater and DH doesn't need another gift card to Home Depot. But no, they don't like that idea. It takes all the fun out of Christmas they cry. Hmm, how much fun is it to open up a GC from Home Depot or your third sage green sweater?"

Maybe the fun is in giving the gift, not opening it. It is better to give than receive. Have you ever heard that before?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet today, but I find it slightly offensive that you and others are picking on people who are probably very good-hearted just because you don't like the gifts they give or the ones that they suggest someone give them.

I agree with Arlington dad.

I don't find it offensive at all. My daughter learned about Hanukah last week and I think Kwanza will be next week.

I think that when children learn about other religions and cultures it makes them well rounded and more accepting of people. I think as long as it is not told as the "one real religion" or the "one holiday" of the season it is fine.

I know someone whose inlaws gave her a burial plot for Christmas. Hmmmm...........

I don't think it's inappropriate to tell the Christmas story, so long as it isn't followed by "and anyone who doesn't believe this happened is going to h-e-double hockey sticks." It's like teaching the Bible/Torah/Koran as literature. I might want to include how "Christmas" has changed over the years - including the introduction of St. Nikolas into the picture, etc.

I don't lie to my kids about death. I think that would be harmful since it is a real, mostly painful part of life that they will find out about sooner or later. Santa, however, is pretty harmless fun and stirs up the imagination.

I was going to say this is totally off topic, but since today seems to be a free-for-all, maybe it is not. Remember the discussion on gender v. sex (and gender identity) a few days ago? Slate has a great article (in its "Explainer" column) about the case of the Indian runner and the issue of determining whether an athlete is male of female. The link is below:

http://www.slate.com/id/2155828/?nav=fix

When did Christmas turn into something we do from Halloween to Christmas? Seriously. When I was little (about 40 years ago), Christmas didn't gear up until after Thanksgiving...and it's getting earlier and earlier. Before long, the stores will decorate for Christmas in September. What was it like in our parents' generation, and the one before that. Was Christmas ever something that was only done in December...or even just on Christmas??????????????

to 10:33: What we are laughing at is that there is this pressure to give a gift. And frankly, I don't think a lot of the gifts have a lot of thought put into them at all. I think these people feel like they have to give a gift, so they give anything they can find. But if your offended, I am sorry.

Ditto, foamgnome. I am pretty sure my grandma doesn't put much thought about me into her gifts - especially when it is her nephew's birthday... so funny!!

Question on gifts for preschool teachers - on DCurbanmom it seems that the consensus is cash is best... around $50 - $100 per teacher (high for me, but I can do $ just a little less). What are the thoughts out there on gifts for teacher, service providors, etc... what is fair, nice, or just plain dumb and cheap?

When did christmas become a tipping/bonus frenzy?

Ditto, foamgnome. I am pretty sure my grandma doesn't put much thought about me into her gifts - especially when it is her nephew's birthday... so funny!!

Ditto, foamgnome. I am pretty sure my grandma doesn't put much thought about me into her gifts - especially when it is her nephew's birthday... so funny!!

I'm not a mom-- curious why you think I am?

Question on gifts for preschool teachers - on DCurbanmom it seems that the consensus is cash is best... around $50 - $100 per teacher (high for me, but I can do $ just a little less). What are the thoughts out there on gifts for teacher, service providors, etc... what is fair, nice, or just plain dumb and cheap?

When did christmas become a tipping/bonus frenzy?

I'm not a mom-- curious why you think I am?

I have decided to either do CVS or amnio because of my age. I am 41. I will decide on which one after the nuchal translucency test.

I thought you signed it capitol hill mom. Must have read to quickly. Sorry. Hard to keep up with all the personas.

To Question....
The Christian celebration of Christmas (as opposed to the secular retail sales driven marketing campaign) begins 4 Sundays before Christmas (Advent season).

I don't have any issues with older students being taught about world religions in public schools - on the contrary, I think it's very beneficial.

But teaching about religious celebrations in elementary schools is sort of pointless. The vast majority of children in the US celebrate Christmas, either religiously or secularly. And even those who aren't Christians usually know about the nativity (my 6 & 4 year olds do, because we've told them the story when they've asked questions like "why is there a baby in that barn?") And trust me, it's difficult to tell the story without making it sound like fact. So what exactly do you gain by telling the Christmas story to the 2 children in the class out of 30 who haven't heard it before? The majority of them already believe in it, and you run the risk of that majority wondering aloud "why don't you believe in this? The teacher just told the story, don't you trust the teacher?" It's just too much for young children to deal with and only serves to point out differences and cause questions that kids may or may not be willing to or want to answer.

Kwaanza is not a religious holiday, so if teachers want to teach about it, fine. But it shouldn't be placed in a line with Christmas and Hanukkah - i.e. "Do you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, or Kwaanza?" or "this week we're doing Hanukkah, next week Kwaanza, next week Christmas" unless you're playing "which one of these things, doesn't belong?"

"The Christian celebration of Christmas (as opposed to the secular retail sales driven marketing campaign) begins 4 Sundays before Christmas (Advent season)."

Has it ever been like that in America--how many generations do we have to go back to find a Christmas that wasn't all commercialized. I've heard it called the "Christmas Machine."

Capital Hill Mom, I agree with Scarry and Arlington Dad -- I don't have any problem if it's in the context of learning about all of the other holidays, too. I remember learning about all the different stories of the origin of the earth in 9th grade bio. Thought that was pretty cool (still remember the Hindu myth with the picture of everything piled up on the back of an elephant), thought didn't understand why we were learning that in bio (probably the school's answer to the creationist controversy at the time -- sure, we'll teach Genesis, along with everyone else's creation story)

But if it's the only thing presented, I get uncomfortable. For ex., last year, my daughter's preschool did a "holiday" concert that was going to include only Christmas carols and a Kwanzaa song -- nothing for Hanukkah. I was just really surprised, because her preschool has about every religion and culture represented there. So I mentioned to her teacher, you know, she's Jewish; the teacher was very upset that they had overlooked that and added in a Hanukkah song (luckily, even 4-yr-olds can learn "Dradle, Dradle, Dradle" in about 3 minutes flat).

Speaking off, off to this year's holiday concert (and Chick-fil-A to provide the requisite chicken nuggets).

"No Santa or other stupid lies for my kids."

What is the difference between a stupid lie and a smart lie?

I went to great lengths to preserve the fantasy of Santa for my children. Thee was nothing harmful, it was a lot of fun, and it sure does put a sparkle in the eyes of the children. If you don't want to play along, you don't have to.

As far as the kindergartener saying that Santa was coming, I see this as being no worse than the children who tell others that Santa is not real. Each family has its own beliefs and traditions and has to learn how to handle any situation where the child is presented with someone else's differences.

School music. The school has a "winter" concert, not a Christmas concert. The only "Christmas" songs do not really reference Christmas, e.g., Frosty the Snowman, but there are Hanukkah songs. I find this offensive. I don't see why there can't be at least one song that is about Christmas.

Singlemom: I should have checked with you first. Because I way undertipped the preschool. I gave the day care owner $100 and each of the five day care workers $50, preschool teacher $30 gc from borders, preschool bus driver $20 gc and each of the four pre school aides $15. Eeks, foamgnome's kids will be pegged spawn of cheapo parents. Will do better next year.

"The Christian celebration of Christmas (as opposed to the secular retail sales driven marketing campaign) begins 4 Sundays before Christmas (Advent season)."

Has it ever been like that in America--how many generations do we have to go back to find a Christmas that wasn't all commercialized. I've heard it called the "Christmas Machine."

So do any of you send gift to your children's grade school teachers? And if so, what do you send? Or is this inappropriate in public schools?

I don't want my tax dollars paying for the teaching of any religious crap in public schools!

I'm not old enough to know the answer to that, but I do know that in the 1965 Charlie Brown Christmas special he opines about how commmercial Christmas has become...

Our family used to do the "White Elephant" gift exchange every Christmas Eve. We did it by taking something from the house that we didn't need/want anymore (not junk) and wrapped it up. Everyone drew numbers and #1 picked first and opened the package, then #2, blah blah blah. If you wanted a gift of someone before you you could take that or a new one. The last person could pick anything. Amazing how many former gifts made it into the pile. We would all get a laugh out of it, not to mention figuring out how to wrap some interesting items (a 4 foot tall purple elephant one year).

I gave my wife a new mop bucket and scrub brush for Christmas one year.

Emily: See my post and Singlemom's post about amounts. I was also embarrassed last year when the last day of gymboree everyone was giving the gym staff gifts and we did not bring one. I have also heard that some people bring in a gift to the classroom. Like a book or something. We gave a large bucket of foam stickers to the preschool class.

I remember a year we were all excited because my California aunt and uncle were coming to Christmas at grandma's house in Miami, OK. I was 13 or 14.

Imagine my surprise when I opened a gift that was a Magilla Gorilla child dining set (cup, bowl, plate). My sister got same thing but Huckleberry Hound, but then again she would have been 7 or 8 at the time.

We were brought up well so I took it in the spirit of giving and was polite. My aunt and uncle were rather chagrined. and I'm sure it was a while before my mom and the other uncles let them off the hook.

No wonder the cost of living is so high in DC. Give your kid's teachers whatever you want, money, gift, nothing but a nice note, etc.

My kids are older, but in elementary school, the room mother gave parents the option of contributing to a group gift (any amount, even $5.00 was OK). It was usually a gift certificate to a nice store. The teachers seemed to like this better than multiple "No 1 teacher" coffee mugs.

Funny in-laws stories:

Last year, my MIL bought my 3-year old an outdoor thermometer and my 1-year old a manicure set.

Two years ago when we were my MIL's house for Christmas, she served a canned turkey "loaf" she'd bought at the dollar store. It looked like a sponge. I instructed my kids not to touch it (no problems there) and pretended I didn't feel well enough to eat.

In a non-holiday story, when I was having trouble breastfeeding my first born, she sent me an article about the benefits of breastfeeding and then wrote "What a crock! I fed my kids out of CANS of formula and they turned out okay!"

I still love her, though. After all, she must have done something right, because my husband's a great guy.

Christmas was at least slightly commercial in the late 1800s, although probably to a lesser extent than now. Ebenezer Scrooge bought a goose or turkey or some other large bird for the Cratchits. Jo in Little Women said that Christmas is not Christmas without any presents. I am trying to find some other examples from earlier literature, but can't think of anything.

10:48, it wasn't that a child told the boy Santa was coming. The kindergarten teacher told the class that Santa was coming on Christmas eve to deliver their presents. Of course everything the teacher says must be true. So the boy is convinced that Santa is coming to his house to give him some gifts. What is a parent to do? Tell the kid, your teacher is wrong? A liar?

keep in mind that religion in public schools is not just an issue of comfort or discomfort but a legal issue as well (First Amendment separation of church and state). If the public school appears to endorse the Christian religion as opposed to other religions or as opposed to no religion, it is using the power of the government to advance it, and that is illegal.

And this is why it is probably best to have a "holidays of the season" program, with both religious and secular components.

Look at "A Christmas Story" (the movie) - it's all about gifts and food, and it was set in the 1940's. (I love the movie so I'm not trying to be negative about it - just saying that commercialization is not a new thing.)

foamgnome - are you *serious* about how much you tipped the daycare/preschool people? You spent more on them than I did on my four children total! Now who's cheap? ;o)

Emily - gifts for public school teachers are more than appropriate. Imo, stay away from "#1 teacher" kind of stuff (they have more than they could ever use), baked goodies (they might not be comfortable eating it, they probably don't "need" it anyway), or other knick-knacky type stuff (nobody needs more knick knacks.) What we usually give is a gift card or certificate to a bookstore or local cafe'. This year I found out that my daughter's teacher gardens so I got her a gc to a nursery.

Some people say "gift certificates to teacher supply stores" is nice but I think that's kind of tacky. "Here's some money so you can go buy more stuff to teach my child." I prefer something for *them*, not for their job.

Thanks for the gift card idea. I have a little shopping to do at lunch.

To momof4: NO, I was being serious. My one officemate tips $75 to each day care worker (her son doesn't attend preschool). So I knew we tipped under some and probably more then others. I have heard that teacher's like the gc to the teacher supply store. But that is suppose to be an option for the gift to the classroom. Since when did inanimate objects (the class room) need gifts? Just being snarky here. I think the idea of the gift to the class room is to defray the teacher's out of pocket expenses. Also teachers in school give gifts to the kids now too. I don't think they should be wasting their money. But DD arrived home with a stuffed animal from the bus driver and a container of lego type blocks from her preschool teacher.

I love all the funny present stories! I have to admit, we (in my family) remember all the ridiculous presents much better than we remember the good ones :) I have gotten a few odd things over the years, but my favorite exchange to witness was actually the packages for my college roommate from her father - a 10 lb box of mini hotel soaps, cans of tuna fish and green beans, and once, a four-foot long box that had about 53 barbie dolls in it, some with missing limbs - we laughed about that for MONTHS! It was much more entertaining than anything else that happened on Christmas!

Isn't it the "magic" of the season? Kids are forced to grow up so fast. Let them believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc. as long as they can. They're only young once.

For the person who commented about religion in school -- considering the Middle East and "overseas" situations, do you just leave that out of the lessons (and how, since it's all over the news)? Isn't that religious based?? There is so much that young people can learn, lets start them young so that they don't grow up to be ignorant adults. And really, didn't this whole country start out because the British wanted religious freedom? Think outside the box before you ban "religion"...

You just reminded me of an early Christmas memory. When I was in first grade (Catholic school), our first grade teacher told us that if we left our shoes out one night, that St. Nick would leave us some fruit in them one night. It must have been December 6, but I don't remember. So I did, but I never mentioned it to my parents, and when I woke, I was dismayed to see that my shoes by the fireplace were empty. I mentioned to my parents that St. Nick forgot me, and as soon as I got out of the bathroom, my parents announced that St. Nick was just a little late and lo and behold, there were some tangerines in my shoes. And of course, I believed it. Kind of funny in hindsight.

Foamgnome - I cannot believe how much you tipped the preschool!!! This is more than I am giving my entire family.

I did give the class a gift and was thinking of $30 for each teacher, and $15 for the aides (over $125). Part of me wishes that I just made some cookies and said thank you. It is just too tough to compete with that level of giving (nor to I want to, I need to save money just in case I ever lose my job or get sick).

No Santa or other stupid lies for my kids.

Man, do I feel sorry for your kids!

To Just some thoughts....

Of course you don't ban teaching about religions from school. What the Constitution prevents is the teaching of religion. (So, if a school wants to teach the kids how Christmas started and what it's all about, it can have a lesson that says something like: One of the major world religions, Christianity, believes that.... ; for Muslims, Jews, etc., however, Christ is not the Messiah, etc.) The important thing is that the school should not use its power as a government institution to promote one religion (or, again, religion over atheism).

This year most everyone is getting gift cards. Oh, how I love gift cards! For one thing, you can put them in a regular Christmas card and mail them, thus saving postage and hassling with long lines, etc. at the post office.

Then there are no worries about whether the recipient will read the book, wear the sweater, and so on - they can buy one that THEY like. Three cheers for gift cards.

Speaking of horrid gifts, I have a cousin with gawdawful taste. One year she got me a pair of HIDEOUS painted ceramic cats - they were meant to be calico but the "calico" looked like someone had barfed on pottery. Another year she got me some body wash that smelled like rotting fruit. Oh well, it's the thought that counts, et cetera.

Wow - I had no idea people tipped preschool workers so much! I only gave a gift to my son's preschool teacher and aide. When the teacher said she was giving each child a present my first thought was also "why is she wasting her money" but then when I saw the gift - snowglobes with pictures of my son, my heart just melted.
Now I'm thinking I may have to go back with a gift certificate for her and the daycare directors.

Singlemom:It is hard to get a grasp on how much to tip. We don't tip the preschool much. We tip the day care staff a lot. I guess my thought is they are doing the most important job, nurturing my child and they are way under paid (even though we pay a lot to the day care, I don't think their salaries are very high). But again, a lot of this is hush hush. So I have no idea what the "right" amount to tip is. I am sure there are people who tip way more then I do. I heard when you have a nanny, your suppose to tip them a month's salary. Good golly, my employer doesn't give me a months salary at this time of year.

I baked the day care workers cookies and gave them a Christmas ornament.

Foamgnome - My sister's nanny was tipped one week's pay for each year she'd worked for them. We do the same for our caregiver. Maybe it's a month's pay in DC and big cities, but that seems kind of insane to me!

For the teacher who told the children that Santa is coming - first the teacher needs an email or other reminder that not everyone in her class is Christian. Second - if they are old enough to be in school the child is old enough to be told that Santa is celebrating Christmas (Christian holiday) and that as a Jew we respect each other's holidays and exchange presents with friends, because they are our friends, but as we don't celebrate Christmas Santa isn't coming to our house. Then remind the child about their Hanukah presents (anyone still wonder why Hanukah, a minor holiday, gets so much attention)
It is hard to contradict a teacher, but it can be done by saying that the teacher must have forgotten that the child was Jewish.

" I don't see why there can't be at least one song that is about Christmas."

I don't see why there can't be at least one song that is about a Voodoo holiday.

I don't see why there can't be at least one song about a Wiccan holiday.

"Singlemom: I should have checked with you first. Because I way undertipped the preschool. I gave the day care owner $100 and each of the five day care workers $50, preschool teacher $30 gc from borders, preschool bus driver $20 gc and each of the four pre school aides $15. Eeks, foamgnome's kids will be pegged spawn of cheapo parents. Will do better next year."

Wow. You spent $400 tipping day care and preschool staff? Is that really expected? It seems waaaaay over the top to me, but then I don't have kids.

I don't understand this kind of tipping.

Um, yeah ... the tipping amounts are making me a little nervous ... I stick with cards - never tipped my son's daycare provider (although I suppose they didn't really expect it from me - half of his daycare was paid for by the good ol' federal government in subsidy payments).

Someone asked me just yesterday if my son still believed in Santa, and I said oddly (he's 10), I think he still does, and the person responded "either that or he's milking it for what it's worth!"

WorkingmomX: I read that nanny tip suggestion on a Nanny website. Maybe it was exaggerated in hopes of getting better tips. Do you guys tip the mailman? DH thinks we need to. We give $25 to mail man. He also insists on tipping the garbage man. We give him $20. The funny thing is we don't even always have the same garbage man. So who is ever is working on that specific day, gets the tip. I do think we have the same mail man because he writes us a thank you card.

Man, these teachers make out like bandits this time of year! Think I should have pursued that career just for the gifts (and the summers off, of course!)

There are Christians who do not celebrate Christmas.

Many of the first Europeans who came to the U.S. did not celebrate Christmas.

Why is it wrong to talk about festivals in school? As long as you do not try to force your religion on to the others, it is fine. There is nothing wrong with learning something more about other people. We are not Christians and we do not celebrate Christmas, but we do the 'Santa Claus' thing for my son. It does not have a religious significance to us. In the country that I grew up, we get holidays for every religious festival, be it Christmas or Id or Diwali. US has predominant Christian population, so obviously, Christian festivals are big here. I do not understand why non-Christians get upset about it. All I care about is that festival times are times to be happy and have fun, and if it not your religious festival, then join the fun and festivity of your friends and neighbors and be happy in their happiness!!

Emily - PLEASE READ THIS

I understand your fears. I too have carried a baby that we knew would die shortly after birth. It really happened and is/was very painful. We could have this problem again. At this point I would be overjoyed to have a baby with Down syndrome! I see so much life in them and my heart aches when I hear people considereing terminating. I am very serious when I say, my husband and I would consider adopting your baby so that you don't abort. Please reply if this would be an option for you.

Last Christmas, I got a lump of coal.

OK - a month of salary is insane as a holiday bonus. I gave my nanny the week off with pay.

the most important job thing is a guilt factor thing. I chose a school where the teachers are paid well and have good benefits. I can barely afford that, and do not want the burdon of a salary subsidy on me - everyone choses their career!

At times I am bitter that I am underpaid being with a non-profit, and I have never recieved a holiday bonus - nor have worked with a place that has given them.

Lets discuss a list of people that need tipping around the holidays for doing their job;
- newspaper person
- child care providors
- front desk people (if live in apts)
- etc

PS - why tip the director of the school?

Did anyone hear the NPR story about St. Nicholas this morning?

They were interviewing a little Muslim boy from the town in Turkey where St. Nicholas came from. His father owns a shop selling St. Nick icons to Christian tourists.

The boy said "St. Nicholas was a very good man, but I don't think he will bring me presents."

Why not, the interviewer asked.

"He's dead."

Almost spit up my coffee. Kids are great.

I don't see why there can't be at least one song that is about Christmas."

I don't see why there can't be at least one song that is about a Voodoo holiday.

I don't see why there can't be at least one song about a Wiccan holiday.

OH, PLEASE. The overwhelming majority of the people in this country celebrate CHRISTMAS. Majority rules. It's the way life is, people. Get over it and if you prefer to participate in a Wiccan event on the side, have a great time, but don't expect the rest of the world to give a crap.

OS:love your dead santa story.
Singlemom: We tip her because I feel she goes out of her way to take good care of our children. She organizes special events, celebrates each child's birthday, allows a lot of latitude for parents to have input. Also she never questions parent's who are late to pick up their kid due to traffic, emergency etc... She really acts as a support to the whole family. I have gone to her for child rearing advice (mother of 5 successful kids). This is not some nameless day care. It really is a place where the kids feel at home.

Dad of 4, I can beat your lump of coal. This year, I sent my dad a can of worms.

Oxfam America has this onling thing where you can send people oddball gifts that benefit developing communities. Everything from camels to outdoor toilets. (The gift recipient gets a card with a picture of the gift.)

Well, one of the cheaper items was a can of worms to help a community establish agricultural resources. I recalled how, when I was a little kid, my dad and I used to go out at night and hunt night-crawlers in the grass which we'd take fishing with us the next day. He also used to read me a story called "Angle-worms Creamed on Toast."

He'll get a kick out of it, I think. (And he has already gotten the assortment of baked goods we sent him, so he has something yummy, too.)

Ok - why is it called tipping for daycare workers, teachers, etc? Why not call it a holiday gift?

"I don't see why there can't be at least one song that is about Christmas"

That statement was made because there was a Hanukkah song. If you can have Hanukkah, then why not Christmas? Either it's ok for any or not ok for all.

mom of 4,

I understand your point of view, but maybe I don't want my kid to learn about Kwanza either because I don't believe in it. I am not saying that I don't, but I am just saying that things should be fair.

"Majority rules"

No, the Constitution rules in the public schools, not the mob.

Get over it, Queen Bee!

11:41: Our tips are always given in a holiday card. So you can call it whatever. I usually get a thank you for the gift. I guess we call it a tip when it is cash and gift when it is a gc. But it is just semantics. I just hand them to the person and say thank you for taking care of my DD.

My day care center has a wonderful arrangement where they put out a box for all the parents to put the holiday tips in, and then they divy it up amongst the staff for holiday bonuses. I LOVE this arrangement, because then you don't have to stress about the "right" amount, you give what you can afford (Which is the right amount, of course.) I've been unemployed for a while now, and was very relieved to just be able to slip my gift into the box. The way the teachers rotate in and out of classes during the day, I'd have to tip all the teachers at the school, anyway!

"I gave my wife a new mop bucket and scrub brush for Christmas one year."

And let me guess--she was oh so grateful you thought of her?

I'm surprised it wasn't another kid. Guess she should be grateful for that, too.

Okay, so tell me again why it's "One Nation under God" and our currency says "In God We Trust"?

Enough of this PC crap. Go ahead and look up how many people celebrate Christmas vs. Hanukkah vs. Eid vs. Winter Solstice. Don't make me laugh.

mcewen

Do you have a link for the Dr. Augustine Kposowa study?

The statement was that the Christmas song was winter (ie secular) and the hanukah song was religous. (I don't know of any secular hanukah songs) Personally this is why I hate this forced celebration at this time of year (you should have a winter concert, you should have a holiday party, etc). Someone gets offended and then in trying to not offend that person and then another person gets offended. Maybe we should all just start celebrating New Year's early. Champagne anyone?

Bad gift? Last year I got a pair of Eeyore socks from my grandma. I hate Eeyore. I am not a fan of a cartoon where the main character's name reminds me of excrement. But I don't complain. My grandparents are retired and have to support my loser alcoholic 40-something uncle, who's unemployed and living with them. Plus, I'm hard to buy for...I live in the city, they live in the country, and I prefer stuff from shops that they've never heard of. Anyway, the socks are warm and comfy, and truthfully, I do wear them when no one's around. So I guess if that's the worst gift I get, I shouldn't complain, right?

Every year I hold my breath and be prepared to be horrified to open a tray of meat jerky, barbecue set, or leather or fur. I'm a hardcore vegetarian, PeTA member, petition-signing, button-wearing animal lover. I keep expecting pelts from family members who know better but delight in hurting people's feelings...but it's been ten years and it hasn't happened yet, so I'm grateful.

Regarding Emily, who said she would terminate her pregnancy if the child had Down Syndrome, and her subsequent attackers: abortion is legal in this country. Women can abort for any reason, whether monumental like genetic disorders or trivial such as she doesn't want to get fat. It's her choice. And anonymous blog contributors don't get a say in the matter. I agree that Down Syndrome children can be lovely to have in one's life (volunteering for Special Olympics has taught me many things), but if a woman is unprepared for motherhood and wants to abort, who are we to say anything about it? Leave her alone! She has her reasons, and it must be unimaginably hard to go through a difficult pregnancy, not knowing from day to day if your baby will be healthy. She needs our support, not our insults and finger-pointing.

Oh, and Lawgirl/NC lawyer, if you're reading, I got into American! :-)

11:47, thanks for the reminder! Happy Winter Solstice, everyone!

anon at 11:47, there are a number of Supreme Court decisions you could look at if you really wanted to know about why certain exceptions are made to the principle of separation of church and state. A Google search would probably lead you to the most important ones.

The language in the Constitution that underlies the idea that the government is not to sponsor religion is found in the First Amendment, as follows:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The idea is that you get to practice your faith in whatever way you want without the government butting in, but that other people also get to practice their faiths (or not to practice any faith) without the government telling them what is right.

Mona,

As someone who loves to smoke, bbq, and grill (and respects the dietary preferences of all humans), grills (and the tools in the set) can be a great and fun way to cook all kinds of non-meat items. Barbecue sets aren't just for carnivores.

Ok, regarding Holiday concerts and "religious" Hannukah songs and "secular" Christmas songs: there are no religious Hanukkah songs. By definition, all Hannukah songs are secualr because music doesn't play much of a role in Jewish worrship. Having kids sing "Hannukah, Hannukah, fesitval of lights/candles glow in a row, seven days eight nights," which merely describes the holiday is much different than having kids in public schools sing "Silent Night" which proclaims, "Christ the savior is born" or another religious Christmas song that goes beyond describing the holiday.

Actually Mona, we do have a say in the matter when she publicly posts about a very personal decision. I equate it with child abuse. I speak out against it becuase I think it's wrong. Should I let my neighbor abuse his child? No. Same goes for how I feel about abortion. Even though it's legal, I think it's wrong and therefore will work to stop it.

I understand what the Constitution says. But the fact remains that the highest elected officials are sworn in on a Bible and our own money betrays our hypocrisy.

It's not that I don't appreciate all the defenders of intensely personal decisions, but really, you shouldn't worry about how the anti-abortion folks affect me. They don't.

Regarding multi-faith holiday concerts -- I can teach my kids about Jesus, the Nativity, the silent night, and the angels singing -- but their favorite "Christmas song" is always going to be about that dradel!

hanukah-
There are plenty of religious songs - how can you say songs do not play much of a role in jewish worship; most of the liturgy is song.
For example for Hanukah there is: Maon Tzur (an ode to God) and Hanerot Hallalu (about the miracle performed on behlaf of the jews)

queen bee-
Our highest elected officials are sworn in on any book of their choice or no book at all. It is the chocie of the individual, not dictated by our government and that is a distinction you really don't grasp. You need to stop reading right wing blogs and learn a little actual history.

"For example for Hanukah there is: Maon Tzur (an ode to God) and Hanerot Hallalu (about the miracle performed on behlaf of the jews)"

You know a lot of schools that are having kids sing those?

to mona (12:00 pm), thanks for the input. While freedom of speech is a guaranteed Constitutional right for all of us, including bloggers, and you do have a right to express your opinion, you can speak out against it all you want and it won't change anyone's stance.

People on this blog have talked trash about vegetarians who preach against eating meat. That's also their right. I can still speak out against eating meat, but it's not going to change anyone's mind. People don't respect you when you talk trash about their habits. People respect a live-and-let-live attitude. As long as you are respectful and don't call names or preach, most people will listen to you. But you'll have no more luck stopping abortion than I would stopping the fur industry.

OS, thanks for the info. I've never had barbecued anything, mostly because I'm a pyrophobe, but also because I'm a bit of a purist (meat does not ever touch my food, etc.) and it creeps me out to have my veggie burger sitting in a puddle of beef grease. But you never know, maybe I will someday eat a grilled veggie dog. I wonder if they're any good?

Are you Jewish? you stated "because music doesn't play much of a role in Jewish worrship" I am sure my Cantor would be shocked to hear that.

Jingle Bells - secular no mention of Christmas just winter
Eight Candles - refers to the miracle - religous content.

Queen Bee, I believe most positions in government if now all now offer the person being sworn in the choice of swearing (presumably on a religious object such as the Bible) or "affirming," i.e. making a solemn promise without religious support. We have yet to have a non-Christian President, so I am not sure whether this would be extended to him or her; I certainly would hope so.

But I certainly take your point: there are some aspects of our communal life where "God" is traditionally invoked. Generally, when these aspects have been challenged, the Supreme Court has held that the "ceremonial" aspect is more important than the religious one. I am unaware of a challenge to the currency, although if you really think about it, it actually seems offensive to put God on a dollar bill. Talk about idolatry...

to ?-
Other than jewish schools no and that is really the point. They could choose to teach religiosu jewish songs but no public school ever would and they should make the same decision around the substance of christmas songs they choose.

"People respect a live-and-let-live attitude"

Please tell it to the Nursing Nazis!

When my son was small my MIL used to give him large or noisy toys. One year she gave him a Batman car that he could sit in and drive around. It was huge. We lived in a tiny little apartment and the only place for the Batman car was in the hallway. we had to climb over it to get to the bedrooms. I hated that thing.

Sorry all, I didn't have time to read all of te posts so this may be redundant.

Emily, please read "Expecting Adam" by Martha Beck before making any decisions. I believe that every woman has the right to choose to terminate, and I am not trying to talk you out of it. Just make sure you have explored all avenues before you make a choice that you cannot undo.

My thoughts are with you.

We had a 'friend of the family' (she was a nutcase that latched onto my grandmother after her last target, our wonderful neighbor passed away) that was notorious for her gifts. She loved to drag my grandmother to the salvage store (where they sell railroad salvage, etc) and buy hundreds of pounds of fruit, preserves, etc. and then beg my grandmother to find her used canning jars at garage sales. We would then get 'home canned' fruit and preserves that were RECANNED from the stuff she bought at the salvage store. Not embellished, not changed in any way, just put into jars to look homemade.

She also gave us wrapped gifts at Christmas - I got a Hickory Farms-knockoff gift tray (with the meat byproduct summer sausage log moldy under the wrapper) that had expiration dates years past for the Christmas I was 13. My sister got one too - hers was the 'meat lovers assortment' and my sister was vegan at the time! Mom still got the best gift of all - a nightgown that was five sizes too big at least (and mom's not a small woman) and was obviously used (pilled in the back from someone sitting in it, stained, etc). It became a Christmas tradition for a few years to open hers last, one at a time, as we all collapsed from laughing. Best. Christmas. Gifts. Ever.

I don't think I was disrespectful. And not true about respecting a live and let live mentality. If I am hurting someone, I would want someone to call me on it.

So when the drunk gets in his car to drive home, do you just "live and let live"?

I don't have a bad gift story (or rather, too many to be able to single one out), but one that is almost the reverse.

One year, my grandparents came to our house for Christmas day. My grandmother was both crazy and mean (trust me on this, I'm not just being disrespectful) and so family gatherings were always, um, interesting. Well, this year, my grandmother felt strongly that Christmas dinner should be served at 2pm; however, my mother had been planning on serving it at 4pm and had timed putting the turkey in the oven accordingly. My grandmother became completely enraged, called both my mother and I a nasty name, took our canopener and our dustpan and drove off, leaving my grandfather. She came back for him the next day, but kept the can opener and the dustpan.

To 12:16
Driving drunk = illegal
Abortion = legal

It is highly offensive to tell religious stories in public schools. And there are many more religions than those covered by Hannukah and Kwanzaa. Are you going to explain that the whole season is really about pagans celebrating the return of the sun? What if that was the only story told? Parents are perfectly capable of presenting their beliefs to their kids.

We were finally able to convince both families to only give gifts to the children and for the adults we would all make donations to the charitable organization of our choice in the names of the different family members. THis year we were able to "purchase" 2 goats, 1 pig and a sheep for Heifer international in the names of our family members. So far we've had a camel purchsed in our name. It feels a lot better on both sides and fits a lot better than another crummy sweater.

Whether or not to talk about different religious celebrations in public school is such a tricky thing. Where we live now, there are very few non-Christians, and it has to be hard for kids who don't celebrate Christmas. Many, many adults here don't know the first thing about Hanukkah, not to mention Kwanzaa or Ramadan. Actually, I don't know much about Kwanzaa.

One of the goals of our government IS to protect minorities. So I think it is appropriate to present other religion's celebrations, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to teach kids about the Jewish High Holidays, for example, instead of Hanukkah, which I understand is a minor holiday religiously? Similarly, maybe kids should learn about Easter (a much bigger deal, religiously) instead of Christmas? But the Easter story is kind of heavy for elementary school.

I hate it when they mangle Christmas carols to keep the word "Christmas" out, though. Is the word really that offensive?

Armchair Mom, I'm with you on the TMI Christmas letters. However, the worst one I got this year was written by someone who is having a real rough time, so I'm inclined to cut her some slack.

Emily, fingers crossed that this won't even be an issue. But for what it's worth, my husband and I have already decided that when/if we have kids years from now, we will make the same decision you have regarding chromosomal abnormalities.

"Okay, so tell me again why it's "One Nation under God" and our currency says "In God We Trust"?"

Because Congress in the 1950s decided that a good way to fight the Red Menace was by religion, since Communinists (and the USSR) were atheists.

Most of the founders of the country were Deists - they believed in a god, but found their proof in the natural world. They did not subscribe to particularly Protestant or Jewish or Catholic dogma about the deity- for example, they didn't really care about the Bible (it wasn't "the word of god" to them) whether anyone had been a messiah. They believed in reason and nature's law. That's why the Declaration of Independence refers to "Nature's God," not "Our Father" or "Christ" or anything like that.

If we're going to argue the nation's religious history, let's please do it based on fact ...

in england under cromwell, the celebration of christmas was forbidden as a "papist" or Catholic holiday made up to pacify the pagens. with the restoration of the monarchy many people who fled england first to holland & then to the new world brought those same ideas about "no christmas" with them. the industrial revolution also put a squash on celebrating holidays as society transition from agrian to industrial. charles dickens, courrier & ives, & norman rockwell all contributed in showing how christmas "should" be celebrated. it was probably during the 1950s that the holiday became commercialized since before that was the war & before that was the depression. rudolph, the red nosed reindeer was just a character made up by a department store.

She came back for him the next day, but kept the can opener and the dustpan.

Too funny.

to mona (12:16), there's a huge difference between driving drunk and abortion. Legality, for one thing. However, while I adore a good debate, Emily has suggested that it makes no difference to her, and since I was posting on her account anyway, I'm stopping. I'd rather talk about bad holiday gifts anyway. You're anti-abortion, I'm pro-choice. Let's agree to disagree, and yes, live and let live. :-)

12:13, good point! Maybe I was wrong about that.

Emily, I do hope that your pregnancy goes off well and that your little one is extremely healthy. Please know that you will be in my thoughts.

Oh, and to the person who asked about the commercialization of Christmas, I recently read in a Slate article that it started becoming a major retail/presents oriented holiday in the 1920s.

Moxiemom - I hear you on trying to convince family into giving to a charitable cause/org instead of gifts. I have tried for years to get my in-laws and parent to do it and finally my mother in law relented this year and gave to The Fisher House in my name. It was like pulling teeth.

We gave charitable donations to Animal Shelters in 2 different states as gifts to family members and the kids got to draw cards explaining the gift. They thought it was great - they love animals so they were happy to helping homeless animals.

If I get a sweater this year I am throwing it over my shoulder like Ralphie with the socks in "A Christmas Story."

"Whether or not to talk about different religious celebrations in public school is such a tricky thing. "

No, it's not a tricky thing. Don't do it, period.

One of the goals of our government IS to protect minorities.

I thought the government was suppossed to protect everyone? My mistake, I thought we were all equal.

To 12:19--

I acknowledged that it is legal, but I still think it hurts people. Mothers, fathers and obviously the babies.

So just because something is legal, does that make it right???

To aging mom- that article says CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion. The Constitution does not protect public schools from the teaching of theology, etc. Public schools are an appendage of the government, but they are not part of Congress - the first article was to avoid states establishing Anglican, Congregational, etc. churches and from levying taxes to pay for glebes. With respect to religious issues that occur within public schooling - these are much more gray and are why so many of the cases make it to the Supreme Court - busing kids to parochial schools is different from bible/koran/talmud study after school on school grounds is different from Amish kids having to go to school until 8th grade, etc.

Megan,
Your grandmother story is too funny. Last year, we were supposed to spend Christmas eve at my MIL's house, but apparently there were some issues, and we got a call at about 5 to go to my brother-in-law's instead. Then about 6 another call that to go to my MIL's instead. So we show up at 7:00 at MIL's and no one is home. So my husband call's his brother and it turns out that at the last minute, it was changed to his place, so we drive over there (not far at least). But when we get there we realize that there is some kind of cold war going on between my MIL and my brother-in-law's wife, and right as dinner is served, my MIL packs up some food and leaves with her daughter, telling my husband and I to tag along. It was very awkward, but in the end, we decided to stay at BIL's because we just couldn't see leaving them with their dinner. MIL kept calling my husband on his cell to urge him to leave, so we just turned it off. Never did find out what the big fight was about. Really did not want to know.

I have suggested stopping all adult gifts and donating to charity instead. In laws felt that was just plain wrong. Whined it won't feel like Christmas. Because, of course, Christ wanted us to go into debt buying sage green sweaters, cheese rolls, and gift cards rather then helping the unfortunate. Hmm... My own family designates gifts through college. After that donations are made in your name or just a good deed is done in the spirit of mankind. We always deliver and provide food baskets for the underprivileged, brother cuts a cord of wood and delivers and stacks it to an elderly relative, Grandma gives to a 100 and 1 charities. But heck, I am going to love that sage green blanket.

Just wanted to remind everyone who is getting all upset at the prospect of Emily's aborting a Down child that so far there is nothing wrong with her pregnancy and that she was speaking in hypotheticals.
So, instead of getting tied up in knots over something that is quite unlikely, let's all send good thoughts Emily's way, ok?

Thank you, aging mom. I appreciate the good thoughts.

I think that public schools should teach about religious holidays and practices. They just should do it properly as a unit not just "oh, its christmas so let's talk about the Jews". Theology is a major force in shaping culture and politics and an understanding of world religions is critical to being a properly educated adult. That said, I'm an agnositic who certainly favors a more academic study of religion.

Emily: I am 37, 7 months. pregnant, I did the CVS for the same reasons as you, skipped the NT, because I wanted to know for sure and not a probability. I'm sure it will be fine, looking back, I wish I hadn't stressed so much. the night before was anguish for me, and as a result, for my husband. The test/procedure itself wasn't so bad.

Momof4, as an older mom, your obgyn will let you know your options and statistics as an older mom and based on family. You make the decision on your own. I had done research prior so I knew I would opt for it, but my obgyn was able to personally recommend someone who has a lot of experience with performing the CVS.

Less than 25% of the world population is Cristian. So if the majority rules- NO MORE CHRISMAS!!

May the Goddess bless you on this sacred night of Yule ;-)

"Women can abort for any reason, whether monumental like genetic disorders or trivial such as she doesn't want to get fat. It's her choice."

Mona --

I agree with your comments on it being Emily's business whether or not to have an abortion. You're absolutely right; it's not anyone else's call.

But I do think that statements like the one above are the sort of thing that lend undeserved credence to the anti-abortion campaign. Technically, yes, a woman can legally abort for reasons of vanity and/or personal inconvenience. But rubbing people's noses in this fact, when a woman's right to choose is at stake, just gives ammunition to the other side.

I think we have to be careful with our rhetoric lest we undermine the importance of our own position.

Holidays are terrific. I teach my DD about Chanukah and day care does Christmas. Right now we have a Chanukah CD our car but it will need to go on "vacation" after
the holiday is over.

Fortunately Passover is soon and we can listen to that one for a week non-stop.

Happy and Healthy 2007 to all.

Emily, that's quite a story! Wow. We also one year drove to my grandparents - normally about a 3 hour drive but there was a horrible snowstorm and it took us almost six. When we got there, she handed up some of her kitchen implements through the door and told us to go home!