Those are 10 pretty good truths, Brian!

Sounds like a fun project, Brian. I'll have to think a bit about mine.

I agree with 98% of what you wrote. My only disagreement is over the value of parenting books. I think they're useless when you treat them as instruction manuals, but can be really helpful when you treat them as sources of additional tools to keep in your kit.

Here are a few I'm fond of

1 - the more time you spend with your kids, the more they learn from you. Be their softball coach (or soccer, basketball, etc.) If you can't be the coach, be the team parent. Cheer them on, don't criticize them. At the end of the day, you'll be surprised how much they've learned from your behavior.

2 - kids are going to rebel at some stage, probably early teens. You did, too. Accept it, be ready to deal with it. The best way to do that is to be ready to explain why you think and act the way you do. As Brian said, they really do learn more from what you do than from what you say.

3 - keep the rebellion within bounds. No drugs, drunk driving, or unprotected sex. No criminal acts - theft, beating up others, etc. (And it doesn't hurt for you to live that way, too.)

4 - if they make their bed, they lie in. Don't always go rushing in to clean up their messes. If they break something, they bought it.

Brian

Are you again drumming up material for a book deal?

Do you have to use the word 'manifesto?' Are you trying to sound intellectual? The only manifesto I recall was the Communist manifesto. Why not just call your project 'Rules for Parents.'

BTW -- my parents controlled their children with a strong hand, especially #9, and broke all your rules. We're not in a rubber room yet.

I think your list is pretty complete.

I'm gonna amend Army Brat - The more time you spend with your kids while they're with other kids the more you'll learn about your kid! Then you can model the change you want to see in your kid and help them over rough spots.

Generally a pretty good list, but I also have to disagree about your take on parenting books. I read books about pregnancy, child birth and parenting through out my pregnancy and found them very helpful. I was expecting my first child and didn't have any idea what to expect. The books helped me feel more prepared. I'd much rather get that practical information from a book than some of the nonsense advice I heard. If I'd listened to my mother for instance, I wouldn't have breastfed, I would have started my baby on solid food from day one and I wouldn't have used a car seat. It's been my observation that people who disparage reading books are usually people who just don't like to read.

This is one truth that I think holds up pretty well. Love is limitless. You can never run out, and in fact, it grows with use. I always tell my little boy that the more love we give away, the more we actually have.

I like your truths, Brian. Although I also disagree on the parenting books. I found Dr. Sears "The Baby Book" SO helpful, as well as "Between Parent and Child" and "Raising a Son", as well as various pregnancy books. Never looked at "What to Expect When You're Expecting" or whatever that series is. Can't stand how anxiety-inducing it is.

On the other hand, my husband is not a reader and never looked at any of those. However, I have frequently seen him model things that I do with our son and ways I talk with our son. (It sounds funny to hear some of my words and phrases come out of my husband's mouth!)

Actually, that might be an interesting blog topic -- how does your spouse or your child's other parent affect your parenting style? I'd be fascinated to hear...

Great start! (And no, no book deal. I'm not even trying to drum one up. Where would I find the time?)

Army Brat: I'd love to post your thoughts on the manifesto page. May I?

(And for those of you working on comments now, please let me know if I can re-publish them as part of the project. Thanks!)

Brian, I have to disagree with you on your #9 about not ever hitting kids. I know you have doughters, but boys are different. to Exercise your #10 and show My annoying son I love him, I punch him on the arm. This is the way I show him affection. My wife doesn't understand, it's a Father - Son thing. Kisses from the daughters though!

The "Does That Hurt?" Game: (For boys only)

1. Lightly punch your kid on the arm or smack his leg.

2. follow this up immediately with the quesdtion, "does that hurt?"

3. If he answers "Yes", smack him again, call him a whimp or a sissy. Game over!

4. If you have a boy anything like mine, his ego will answer "No way". This gives you intrinsic permission to smack him again and ask, "Did THAT one hurt?"

5. Repeat until he hits you back.

6. Yell "OUTH! THAT HURT!"

7. Attack back, turn it into a wrestling match.

8. Once you have him pinned, tickle him until he says "Uncle".

9. If he will submit to saying "Uncle", he will say anything to get out of it. Hint: Make him say things like "I'll take out the trash." and "Yes I'll get you a beer.. without shaking it up first."

10. Always shake hands at the end. I also tell my son that the game will have to stop permanently the first time he wins which will probably come within the next 5 years. And the last thing I tell him, that if or when I'm no longer around, that he gets the role of being the protector of the family.

Parenting books are awesome...for kindling, doorstops, frisbees, weight training, booster seats, fixing that table wobble, package stuffing....

Definitely a useful tool for your kit.

Father of 4 - you are back!!! :-) (smiley face)

Never wake a sleeping baby. (for anything!)

I too find that books can be helpful, not necessarily as prescriptions for what to do, but as some indication of what to expect.

An example of this is the "Your ???-Year-Old" series by Louise Bates Ames. It was written in the 70's, and some of the opinions about spanking are out-of-date. However, I have found the descriptions of the developmental stages to be fairly on-target. While individual children do have individual personalities, many behaviors are common for each age. Understanding common issues for each age helps me to view some less charming behaviors in context. I am able to respond more calmly and effectively with this understanding.

Each book in the series has a chapter on the appropriate birthday party for the age, complete with timeline. I have found these guidelines right on target and have had very fun at-home parties for my daughter. I've been to too many awful birthday parties with too many kids, activities better suited for older kids, etc. These books are worth a look for the birthday chapters alone.

OK. The first manifesto is up at http://www.rebeldad.com/LewisManifesto.html

Keep 'em coming!

parenting books can be useful provided you realize that they are not carved in stone. books on how children develope have been really helpful to me. they helped me to realize that a particularily annoying behavior of my son's was totally age appropriate. he wasn't doing it to annoy me he was doing it because that was his age.

Bonjour, comment allez-vous ?
Let's have some fun today, ok?

I don't agree with 9) Don't hit children. Ever.

I see 2yr old toddler in high chair throwing bowl on the floor. Mom says no. He willfully rebels to push the limit. Mom picks it up, says no. He throws it down again. He's testing you. 5 times repeat. Time out, warnings, all don't work. You know what works, a slap on the hand. He cried, he stopped, he does not do it again.
One slap on the hand is all it takes.

If you say 1) all kids are different, then you should expect that not everyone's kids responds to your kind of correction. Some kids need one slap on the hand when everything else is not effective.

My dad slapped me once on the face, only once in my entire life. I always remember it. He warned me not to go to the construction site. I was 13, I disobeyed and snuck over there. I threw rocks and sticks which hit my brother under the eye. When dad found out, he gave me that one slap, and that set me straight. I am glad he did not give me a sissy punishment like time out or grounding or take away privileges.

Parenting books are most helpful to the author. Everyone else, your mileage may vary.

Father of 4

1) Treats daughters and sons differently - what's that?

2)Tells son that he "gets the role of being the protector of the family" what's up with that? Can't your wife protect your family?

Thierry,
Are you saying that you have only been punished once in your life? That explains it then.

Also, I would not have slapped you. I would have slapped your mother for having you.

Never hit a child? I hope that doesn't include spanking. Just like you said above, some things work for some kids and some don't work for others. I can't stand it when the self-glorified, saintly-type of parents say things like "I would NEVER spank my child." Well, good for you, but trying to sweetly tell a rambunctious child to stand in the corner for a time out ain't gonna work with some people. When and where did this country decide to incarcerate parents for giving a spanking? A LOT of us were brought up that way and nothing scared me straight more. The legal system and outspoken parents need to back off. My parents and I have a wonderful relationship now and I agree with them having spanked me when I was young...I was a handful sometimes. It's the parents' decision to figure out what discipline is right for their child. So please don't try to impose the no spanking ever rule on people. We'll just end up resenting you for it. It's ok to share your opinion, but this is mine and I'm sticking to it.

"Manifesto" is a tad grandiose, don't you think? You're posting opinions from strangers, some of which are good, bad, all of which needs to be adapted to the individual child because they are all different. A manifesto is a decree published by a government or political party. It is not an appropriate description of parenting opinions coddled from the internet wasteland.

HOw about - giving your kids material things does NOT make up for your absence.

- Agree with #9. How can we teach children violence is NOT ok if we we hit them?

- Sometimes I think that the most important thing we can do as parents is to forgive ourselves for the little things we all screw up. For being the last parent pick-up at school, for forgetting to bring snack to school, and all the other little things that cause so much anxious moments. Our kids WILL still love us and it won't hurt them long-term.

- NEVER forget that being a parent is an amazing gift.

- Our job as parents is to raise loving, responsible, and thoughtful adults. This is one that sometimes makes the 6th time-out of the day a little easier.

"Thierry,
Are you saying that you have only been punished once in your life? That explains it then.

Also, I would not have slapped you. I would have slapped your mother for having you."

I have been punished many times, but slapped only once, and it was effective.
As for the second comment???!
Did I say something so terrible that you need to slap my mother for giving birth to me? REally..... tell me what was so bad in my earlier comments? I can apologise if I said something to offend you.

Not to be a curmudgeon, but What most people think is "common sense" is the approach with which they are most familiar. I wish MORE parents would listen to a wider variety of parenting voices and experts -- not that a parent should implement every idea he hears about, but there is a benefit to considering new ideas. IMHO, an excess of parents tend to thoughtlessly parent in precisely the same way their parents raised them, including spanking, engaging in demeaning behavior, letting their kids ride on their laps behind the steering wheel ala Brittney, enforcing the clean-plate club. Perhaps if they opened their minds and ears, they'd realize that there are alternatives, and that they are free to parent in the best way for their individual kids whether or not it's the way their parents would have parented. Whether or not to circumcise or formula-feed one's children come to mind as practices that were "common sense" thirty-years ago. Most of us would agree that informed parents may make different decisions about either or both of those topics than their parents did on those same issues.

Information is a good thing if we control it and it doesn't control us.

Thierry - je t'aime

How about teach your kids to respect other people's values and beliefs by doing so yourself?

I see nothing wrong with Father of 4's game with his son. I have played it many times with my brothers and nephews, never my dad though.

Also, why can't he tell his son to protect his family? Why is that so offensive? It's traditional, yes, but why is it offensive?

Think we could make a distinction between child abuse/violence and wrist-slapping.

There is no justification for child abuse. Parent who does it goes to jail.

Wrist-slapping has its place when done as a last resort, with parent in control of emotions, and only 1 slap. The first slap is for the benefit of the child. Subsequent slaps are for the parent to vent, and should not be done. By all means use timeout, rewards, withdrawing privileges, etc. My personal favorite is writing lines (when they are older).

I know this topic is very controversial and bringing it up on this blog especially will take a quick turn for the worse. People here aren't willing to budge but they will tear your arguments and then you as a person to shreds for opinions like this.

How about adding, "It's okay to say NO to your kids" ? I think a lot of parents would benefit from that.

Brian, this is awesome! It was just what I needed to read right now, thanks for your thoughtfulness.

And I am totally with you on the parenting books - I am an avid reader and turning to books for help with something is pretty much an automatic reaction for me, but I have come to despise most parenting books. I agree with those who say there is some practical stuff that is useful, and some "tools in your toolkit," but so much of them is just dogma and opinion that makes you stress out about whether you and your child are "doing it right." Even the ones where the general philosophy appeal to me make me crazy with some stuff. So I do still look to them occasionally for ideas of things to try, but my advice to new parents is to go easy on the books and listen to your heart when it comes to knowing what's right for your child.

NC,

It is a bit presumptive to write that parenting behaviors including "spanking, engaging in demeaning behavior, letting their kids ride on their laps behind the steering wheel ala Brittney, enforcing the clean-plate club" are engaged in thoughtlessly or are wrong. Whose to say informed parents would choose to act contrary to your wierd and arbitrary "wrongs"?

I feel pretty informed. I have done the lap drive thing hundreds of times in our neighborhood.

1. Parenthood isn't brain surgery so stop making it harder than it really is. If you can't control your kids, you shouldn't have them. And they should be under your control until they are 18 years old. If you've done your job well, then you shouldn't have to worry when they leave home.

2. Verbal abuse can be more damaging than physical abuse. These are the parents who will be murdered in their sleep by their teenaged sons.

3. Don't reward your kids for disobeying you. Case in point -- I was at a yard sale/flea market several years ago. A grandmother brought her grandson to a table near where I was standing. The kid had a chip on his shoulder from the get-go. The table had lots of glass items on it, dishes, glasses, picture frames, knickknacks. So the kid kicks the table leg and glass rattles.

The grandmother said 'Stop kicking the table.' Kid kicks table again.

Grandmother says again 'Stop kicking the table.' Kid kicks table again harder.

Grandmother repeats 'I told you to stop kicking the table.' Kid kicks table again, really hard. The vendor was getting a little pissed by this but didn't want to yell at the kid in front of grandma.

Then grandmother says 'They have ice cream cones over there. Let's go get some ice cream' Off they go to get ice cream after the kid has disobeyed her several times. In her mind she was getting him away from the table, but in his mind he was being rewarded for disobeying her. Some day when that kid is being hauled away to the Big House in handcuffs he's going to wonder why.

ARE YOU FROM MASSACHUSETTS?

I like the nod to wicked smart. Agree with Jenny - It's ok to say NO to your kids.

to I did it again. That's not what I said. I said that these are behaviors many parents engage in without thinking or considering alternatives because "that's how my mom raised me and I turned out okay." What I'd like to see more of is parents sizing up the risks and the alternatives and reaching a thoughtful decision, as I'm sure you have, which runs along the lines of, "you know what in this instance it makes sense to put Suzy on my lap because I'm driving in my neighborhood back from the pool going 5 miles per hour, and it's a heckuva lot of fun for both of us". The key is to think, to consider different approaches, to appreciate that those different approaches might not be the ones your mom used, and not to merely parent, rinse, repeat.

"Off they go to get ice cream after the kid has disobeyed her several times. "

should have spanked the kid instead.

"If you can't control your kids, you shouldn't have them"

Huh? already had them. what to do now - give them away?

It's a good list, but I also disagree with you on parenting books. For example, they have given me strategies so I don't feel like I *need* to spank my kids. A couple recommendations for parents who are spanking now and would like to stop: "1,2,3 Magic", and any book by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. Basically, the problem with spanking, IMO is that it doesn't teach kids what they need to know to learn to control themselves.

My suggestion for rules:

Don't treat your kids like a lower form of life-- take their interests and concerns seriously, and they won't feel like they have to sneak around behind your back to do what's important to them. (I'm not saying you always say yes, just that you legitimately try to meet their needs/wants when you can).

Model being an interesting person-- show them there's more to life than work (professional and household), and that they can pick up new hobbies and skills through out life.

Don't get your parenting advice from a blog.

NC,
Fair enough, but then should we also consider alternatives to such behaviors as reading to our children, hugging them, playing catch with them or giving them timeouts, instead of mindlessly doing those things because our parents did them?

The context of your examples (I felt) had the presumption that they were wrong, and that no rational parent would engage in them.

I believe that spaking is appropriate for situations in which there is no second chance for a mistake e.g., running in the street - I spanked both of my children for running into the street because there is no margin for error. I need them to obey this rule and I don't have time to wait until they are old enough to understand the real consequences. In a two year old mind, that is impossible, but a two year old can learn, if I run into the street, I will get spanked.

Spanking children shows children that losing your temper is ok - spanking/beatings/screaming are just parental temper tanrums... and reinforce exactly what we are trying to stop. I think that as adults we should be able to control our emotions!

We are not perfect, and every once in a while we may "lose it", but parents that say spanking is an effective form of discipline are just using it as a cop out! Being a good parent takes time and patience.

My rule no. 1: give up any notion of perfection, and accept that whatever you do, it will be wrong. And yet your kids will in all likelihood turn out fine, despite what they will be sure to tell you are your egregious faults and failings.

Rule No. 2: Trust your instincts. I think this has to trump Brian's Rule No. 3 sometimes, because doctors are human, like anyone else, and make mistakes. Yes, you need to have trusted, knowledgeable advisors who can tell you not to worry about every little thing. But no matter what they say, if you're still not comfortable, go with your gut.

Two of my biggest regrets as a parent were when I violated Rule No. 2. The first time it meant my daughter stayed in a horrible preschool for several extra months because I believed she was just "going through a phase" ("phase" = extremely bad teacher). The second time it meant 48 hrs of gut-wrenching worry watching my son fighting to breathe, ultimately ending in the emergency room, because the on-call doctor over the weekend brushed it off as "just a virus."

Rule No. 3: Remember that you are the adult, and act like it. A 3-yr-old pitching a tantrum is a developmental stage; a 30-yr-old has no excuse. And frankly, it doesn't work -- if you yell and belittle and hit whenever your kids act up, they might shut-up short-term, but long-term, you're teaching them that that is how people should behave.

Corollary to Rule No. 3: Always remember that you are your kids' idol. They want to be you, and will watch you every second (usually when you think they're paying the least attention) so they can learn to do and act and be just like you. So be the person you want them to be.

...And they should be under your control until they are 18 years old...

Ha! Obviously, lurker has not had teen agers and probably not any kids.

*yes, you can publish this*

I have a vital one to add - let your kids know that as long as they grow up to be good people, you don't have the final say in what they become, but love and support them anyway.

My parents let me know that they loved me, no matter what path I took, and even though I went to undergrad school for theatre, I got my MBA and now have a great job. Friends took the opposite path (business school first because their parents insisted) and ended up miserable and are now thinking about changing careers.

We're using that with DD (my partner has the same philosophy) and even though it's looking like we're going to have a queer daughter who wants to be in the military, which is the last place she *should* want to go all things considered, she knows we love her, support and respect her decision, and want her to go Air Force or Navy like our respective families have. :-)

Mr Honda - I don't agree with the one slap rule - unless you are talking about slapping children in the face (which I don't really agree with). My husband was brought up with the question "How old are you?" when they were getting spanked - and they got a spank for each year. By the time they were 5 or 6 they didn't get spanked anymore. We've employed a similar tactic.

One more thing on spanking - it works for some kids and not others - like most things (RULE #1). My oldest was devestated when she got spanked, needless to say it only happened a few times. She got the point and just the threat of a spank stopped the behavior. My youngest could care less - you could spank him all day - he might cry - then he'd do the exact same thing all over again. We joke that he has no nerve endings in his behind. Take something away from him to curb his behavior and he listens. Different strokes for different kids.

cmac,

Wait until they are teen-agers!

I was spanked (not beaten) on the rear end when I deliberately disobeyed my parents in crucial situations, and I turned out just fine. I don't believe violence is good or any of that bad stuff. Too often parents try to be their child's friend and not their parent. Each to their own, I suppose, but I do choose to exercise my right to spank my child.

And yes, I'm from Massachusetts. Go Sox.

Lurker might as well say, "I'm not parent, but I play one on a blog."

DC

How can it be verified that you turned out "just fine"?

DC

How can it be verified that you turned out "just fine"?

I have a question about people's thoughts about yelling. That is by far my biggest weakness. I lose my temper and yell at my daughter much more often than I would like. I don't mean screaming at the top of my lungs, more just raising my voice. Usually what I yell is a repeat of whatever I am trying to get her to do, like, Put that down or Let go of the cat's tail. Sometimes I'll also say something like, You have to learn to listen to Mommy. When I say no you need to stop. Stuff like that. But as soon as the moment is over, my anger clears up right away and I hug her and tell her I love her and explain more calmly why I got angry. When I hear other people say it's never ok to yell, I feel horrible, but I also have a hard time believe that other parents of two year olds don't do this type of thing too.

Re: Massachusetts. I knew it - most progressive men are from the northeast. For what it's worth, I do not like the Dice-K nickname already bestowed on our new showstopper.

It's important to have the "nukyuhler" (this is DC, after all) option of spanking to discipline children. Of course, if you:

1. go into a rage and spank your child
2. need to spank them daily, weekly, or even monthly
3. spank with an implement other than your hand

realize that you are probably the problem, not your child.

to I did it again. Precisely. If we are secure in our ability to decide what's best for our kids, and if we really want what's best for our kids, We should be willing to put our most significant parenting behaviors, at least (I don't feel the need to put much thought into whether 1% or skim is the optimum milk-fat content, for example) on the table. Or to state differently, if we only put on the table for examination behaviors we will re-christen "perfect" (should we promote healthy eating?) or "absolutely unacceptable" (should I smoke pot in front of the kids and their friends?), where's the opportunity to improve our parenting or reach a better decision -- better for us, or for this child, or for this situation? I'm not condoning or condemning practices determined by individual families to be appropriate for their families. I would like to see more parents cast a wider net for information so that their decisions consider more options than the ones in the bucket that contains, "how my parents raised me" and "how your parents raised you". If they end up considering and rejecting a variety of alternatives different from their experiences, at least they will have thoughtfully done so. Reasonable minds can differ on a whole host of such decisions.

yes, some parenting books are just worthless - dobson's dare to discipline is just a right wingnut's scree against every thing dr spock wrote. some are very good & some are medicore. what works with one child will not necessarily work with another. what works one day/week/month will not necessarily work when child is older. the more resources i have the better i am able to parent my child.

i agree that saying "no" can be a good thing unless you're saying "no" just to prove to yourself that you're a parent that can say "no".
be the parent not the friend.
be the adult.
let your child experience what i call the law of natural consequences. bad choice = bad consequences.

Not really a rule but remember you are not in it alone. I think in our society today people feel so isolated and think they need to single handedly raise their child. I listen to teachers, day care workers, friends, neighbors and family for ideas. Be flexible. And remember no one ever raised a perfect child.

Too many parents do it to vent get out their frustrations. Too many parents spank one minute, but are inconsistent in discipline, so that it never means anything to the child. Too many parents go overboard and abuse their kids using spanking and discipline as an excuse. Spanking teaches kids that it is okay to lose your temper and resort to violence when you have a problem. At best, it sets a bad example, at worst, it can be abusive. In any case, even in cases where the parents think it works, there are other, less violent methods of teaching children to behave.

anon for now, the problem isn't that you yell at your child, it's that you lose your temper. If you need to raise your voice to emphasize what you expect from your child, it's what I call effective communication. If you get angry at the same time though, for 1 thing the child, even a 2 year old, will learn to manipulate you by your own anger. And that's one of the last things you want in a relationship with anybody.

RebeccainAR, your comment should definitely be part of the manifesto -- focuses kids on making decisions that are right for themselves and not because they are rebelling or channelling their parents.

anon for now

You are all over the place, yelling and then hugging. In the end, the hugging is rewarding your child's bad behavior.

When my kids were 2 years old, I didn't do much yelling, but I did say NO! many, many times. My daughter's first word was No.

Rebecca in AR's post is now up as a manifesto at http://www.rebeldad.com/manifesto.html. Again, if you'd like me to share your thoughts on the manifesto page, please make that explicit.

I think that I can boil my manifesto down to three words

1 teach
2 listen
3 love

Not in that exact order, which of course needs to be arranged by situations...

I have a few more--
Children are not dogs. Don't try to "train" them.

When you screw up, take a deep breath and move on-- address recurring problems but don't waste time and energy beating yourself up over the past.

It makes me sick when I see parents on the subway or grocery store, going bananas, screaming at kids, and smacking them.

It is just about the lowest thing in the world- a full-grown adult hauling off on a child.

I have interviewed a woman who killed her toddler. She broke his neck when she smacked him with a power ranger toy to discipline him for spitting food on the floor. She was still shocked when I spoke to her hours later, not realizing how the "accident" happened. She claimed she hit him one time. I don't really know what happened, but it was awful.

Say what you want about the shrinks and the "experts"- I think they got this one right. Hitting a kid damages that kid and invites the adult to loose control of themself.

Is there something wrong about treating my sons differently from my daughters?

I tell my oldest son that he is next in line behind me for the protection of our family. He needs to look out for his mother, sisters, and little brother.

1. It makes him feel good to be important.
2. It gives him a sense of responsibility to his family.
3. It sends the message to him that he is growing up and is expected to gradually take on more of a leadership role as he matures.

I think it's a good thing. It builds his confidence in his own self and makes him feel needed and loved.

"I have a few more--
Children are not dogs. Don't try to "train" them."

Husbands on the other hand....

Father of 4, you're doing the right thing by instilling that sense of responsibility on your oldest son. Some of us still believe that the protection of the home falls under the purview of men, and that is fine.

Children are not dogs. Don't try to "train" them."

Also, the ivisible fence is apparently frowned on by DCFS for use with kids. FYI

"Children are not dogs. Don't try to "train" them.""

yeah, and don't use a leash either. i've seen too many leashed toddlers walking behind mom in the mall.
i almost wanted to look for a license tag.

"My husband was brought up with the question "How old are you?" when they were getting spanked - and they got a spank for each year. By the time they were 5 or 6 they didn't get spanked anymore. We've employed a similar tactic."

That's barbaric.

"Some of us still believe that the protection of the home falls under the purview of men, and that is fine."

This is the kind of attitude that makes women subservient to their sons.

"My husband was brought up with the question "How old are you?" when they were getting spanked - and they got a spank for each year."

This sounds like vicious mental torture - what were his parents thinking? What were you thinking when you agreed to this? How could you marry a man who used this method?

To: No name: see DC's comments:

"I was spanked (not beaten) on the rear end when I deliberately disobeyed my parents in crucial situations, and I turned out just fine. I don't believe violence is good or any of that bad stuff. Too often parents try to be their child's friend and not their parent. Each to their own, I suppose, but I do choose to exercise my right to spank my child."

Personally, I can wait for the teenage years. I don't plan on spanking them when they are 13, as a matter of fact we don't really need to spank anymore.

To spank or not to spank is so subjective. I know a couple kids (including my 15 year old nephew) that could have used a few good spanks when they were little - maybe the teenage years WOULD be a little different. Using "words" to correct a kid is great - but they learn they can manipulate their words easier than their actions.

Posted by: | December 14, 2006 12:41 PM
Thanks for the goading. I know you like to play this little game all day with various posters. Is this how you get your jollies?

Name yourself then you will be taken seriously.

"Also, why can't he tell his son to protect his family? Why is that so offensive? It's traditional, yes, but why is it offensive?"

1. I think it is inappropriate to lay that kind of heavy burden on a kid when they are not old enough. Kids take those kind of remarks to heart and can be anxious over what they feel they should be doing.

2. It is offensive to the wife because it assumes she is not a capable adult in charge of taking care of the family. It is putting a young son in a position of importance over his mother that he has not matured into yet. It will lessen her in his eyes.

This spanking debate could go on forever.

I personally favor a few good whacks when making love.

"I have a few more--
Children are not dogs. Don't try to "train" them."
We got a puppy this week and I have been thinking about how much they are the same as small children. Praise for good behavior, redirect for unwanted behavior and lots of love and affection.

Regarding yelling at children - parents help set linguistic patterns for their children, do you want them yelling at you because you have modeled the behavior and they assume it is the accepted way of communicating? If your two year old isn't listening to you, go to them and move them (redirect) to an appropriate activity.

CJB would prefer to raise a bunch of sissy boys. When confronted with an intruder, they will cower behind momma sucking their thumbs while she swings a frying pan.

This spanking debate could go on forever.

I personally favor a few good whacks when making love.

Posted by: Thierry | December 14, 2006 12:48 PM

Too funny. Watch out - you may get the "subjugation of women" tirade from a certain poster.

Single mom:
No, spanking a child or screaming at them are NOT cop outs or showing them that losing your temper is ok. They are disciplinary tactics that some people chose to employ. Have you not read any of these other posts?? Different strokes for different folks! Quit trying to make people believe parents are bad for spanking or yelling. Apparently Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris had sweet little patient parents who never lost their cool and simply gave timeouts to their kids. Obviously that is not the best form of discipline for everyone, now is it???

Brian, you can use my 11:14 post if you want.

F04, your 11:46 comment on yelling was so right-on -- and something my husband doesn't seem to get. He says, "how the [bleep] is provoking me so much that I yell and scream a 'payoff' that she would want?" He doesn't quite get that it's all about the power and control -- he is the most powerful person in her life, and she knows that if she pushes this button over here, she can make him go ballistic. Which means in her mind, she controls him -- but only by bad behavior. (to be fair, I'm working on this, too -- it's not all just about him)

The best thing we've done is the "1-2-3 Magic" approach. There are really no new concepts in there, but the key for me is that it MAKES me impose a minor consequence before things escalate to the point where I lose my temper and yell. So many times you just want to get through something -- let's just get out of the store, let's just get out the door, let's just get dinner on the table -- and you don't want to provoke a tantrum or take the time for proper discipline, so you tell yourself you'll just ignore this little thing this one time. But that almost guarantees that the little stuff will build and build and build until you can't ignore it any more and blow up. The 1-2-3 Magic approach basically imposes a framework that forces me do something early (whether I really "feel" like it or not), which tends to nip things in the bud most days. It basically helps protect against lazy parenting.

Anon for Now, we ALL struggle with yelling. But it sounds like you are reacting out of frustration and guilt -- completely legitimate frustration with a young child, then guilt that you lost your temper. Been there, done that -- and from my experience, it definitely sends mixed messages and makes your child feel insecure, because she never knows which mommy will show up. The best thing I can suggest is to be proactive, not reactive --plan out your response in advance, so you know if (when!) she does X, you'll do Y. Then when X happens, do that immediately, before you get to that feeling of overwhelming frustration -- and do it completely unemotionally, just matter-of-fact. Then, when it's done, go on as if nothing happened.

1-2-3 Magic is one framework for that sort of thing that works with some kids, but there are a lot of other resources out there for other ways to accomplish the same thing. It's not perfect -- we're constantly tinkering to try to stay one step ahead of her -- but it has really helped us take the stress level in our house down quite a bit. And the side benefit is, once my daughter figured out that she wasn't getting the huge yelling payoff anymore (in, like, 1 day -- freaking miracle), her behavior improved tremendously -- the vicious cycle became a virtuous cycle (until the next developmental stage, that is. . . .).

Brian, one more.

11) When all else fails, call SuperNanny!

I have interviewed a woman who killed her toddler. She broke his neck when she smacked him with a power ranger toy to discipline him for spitting food on the floor. She was still shocked when I spoke to her hours later, not realizing how the "accident" happened. She claimed she hit him one time. I don't really know what happened, but it was awful.

I bet she got away with it too.

Laura
I second the 1-2-3 Magic approach. I thought the book was slow reading because it was 90% it's own advertising, but once I got past that it put several techniques together nicely. For my money motivated 6 year old, I skip the time out and take a quarter off his allowance when I get to 3. Takes almost no time or energy and has been effective so far.

I think the most important thing for a parent to have is self discipline. It takes a lot of self discipline to properly discipline children. It takes consistency for any discipline approach to work and that requires a lot of self discipline on the part of parents. It takes self discipline not to freak out when there is fecal matter on your new wallpaper. It takes self discipline to sit and do algebra for 3 hours a night until your kid gets it. There is so much fun to raising kids, but if you want to have a happy, balanced, successful kid YOU need to be disciplined before you can expect them to be.

note for the record that the poster "DC" is not the same as "dc" - I say this only to avoid confusion when I post in the future if we end up contradicting one another. that being said, as a child-free person, i'm sitting this round out.

Helcat - please do some research on the affects of physical discipline on children... the results are not promising. Treating your child with respect and dignity, teaches them to do the same with others. What does hitting teach - your parents are not grown up enough to control their rage?

How would you feel if your supervisor slapped you around a few times when you did something wrong at work? Would you feel motivated to do better work? Or be resentful and either leave or try to get back at them?

Also, nobody can make you feel anything... it is your choice to accept or reject it. I was expressing my thoughts, as are the rest of the people here. Luckily mine are supported by the academy of pediatrics :)

You've got to make sure you're thinking about the same think when you say "spank". To some, it means 20 whacks for the most trivial infractions, done by a raging mad parent. To others, it is a rare occurrence and done under control and clear explanations.

Here's a link to a USAToday article on CEOs that were spanked. Interesting.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-10-08-spanking-ceos-usat_x.htm

Some excerpts:
USA TODAY interviewed about 20 CEOs over three months and, while none said they were abused, neither were any spared. Typical is General Motors (GM) CEO Rick Wagoner, 53. He got an occasional "whack in the fanny," while growing up in Richmond, Va., but said he had it coming and that it probably had no influence on his life as a high achiever.

"Very, very rarely," said Cisco Systems (CSCO) CEO John Chambers, 56, the son of two doctors

Some CEOs had more heavy-handed parents. Dave Haffner, CEO of Fortune 500 manufacturer Leggett & Platt (LEG), says he was familiarized with his father's belt about six times a year."I received the belt when I deserved it," said Haffner, 54

Is there some connection between corporal punishment and corporate leadership? Most CEOs believe spankings played little or no role in their success but usually could cite important lessons learned. "I'm disciplined, detailed and organized," Haffner says.

a 1998 Gallup Poll found that 55% of parents agreed with the statement "A good hard spanking is sometimes necessary."

CEO Jack Welch wrote in his 2001 memoir, Jack: Straight from the Gut, that his mother, Grace, was the disciplinarian in the family. When Welch skipped altar-boy practice, she whacked him with a shoe.

She found that most CEOs had tough disciplinarians as parents

None said there was a direct correlation between spanking and success. "But they respected authority. It wasn't a joke to them. They feared their parents but loved them as well. Their parents would follow through with a spanking. Today, there is no follow-through

Turner gives credit to corporal punishment for his success. He says he wasn't a bad or malicious child, but he was difficult and needed to learn self-discipline and to focus on a goal. "I certainly wouldn't have done that if I had grown up with Mary Poppins."

Straus says it comes as no surprise that CEOs who were spanked express great affection for their parents. It's not just bad parents who spank.

Love your top 10, Brian. Really great. Agree with everything you wrote.

Glad so many people like parenting books, but I'm with Rebel Dad. Most simultaneously bore me to tears and make me feel like a terrible parent, with a few exceptions such as Blessings of a Skinned Knee; How to Talk so Children Will Listen; Happy Baby, Healthy Sleep Habits; How to Get Your Kids to Eat But Not Too Much; and Anne Lamott's Operating Instructions.

Find it funny that those of us who disdain parenting books are writing about our parentings tips!

Also re: the big subject of SPANKING. When my husband and I were dating and having serious discussions about being together for all eternity he asked me what I thought about spanking. I told him that it didn't really turn me on but I would try it if he wanted to. He said, "I meant spanking KIDS, not you."

"We got a puppy this week and I have been thinking about how much they are the same as small children."

Right on! I learned some parenting techniques watching the family cat give birth and care for her kittens. The gentle nudges, the firm hand, the endless correction until the lesson was learned.

>"Some of us still believe that the protection of the home falls under the purview of men, and that is fine."

>This is the kind of attitude that makes women subservient to their sons.

Not spanking when warranted is the kind of activity that makes women subservient to their sons. If you fail to establish authority when they are young, they won't respect you when they get bigger & stronger than you.

I think Brian's list is great - but I also think parenting books are tools and not the "textbooks" they seem intended to be. I'd like to add:

11. If you make a threat, follow through. If you make a promise, follow through.

12. Natural consequences are the best teachers.

13. If you make time to LISTEN to your children, they will tell you just about everything (probably not directly, but they will tell you).

14. Model a healthy marriage - communicate honestly and fairly and kids will learn to do that too.

15. As a divorced parent and child of divorced parents, and as tempting as it often is, do NOT badmouth the other parent. Kids are adept at figuring out the bad stuff, there's no need to tell them.

I don't know how many of the posters are parents or children of divorce, but one of my balance challenges is the sharing of the children and balancing two families. I'd like to see the blog address this topic.

I have 3 boys. They are rambunctious as caged horses. They play-fight, wrestle, do tackle football. They are marksmen with the bow and pistol. The oldest is in the military and I can count on one hand the number of times I have spanked him in his lifetime. He is disciplined, motivated, loyal, respects authority, sacrificial. I raised him to be a man, not a sissy. He will do his duty to God, his family and his country. At home, he will be the one protecting his family, not his wife. She will sleep safe and secure under his love and protection.

"Not spanking when warranted is the kind of activity that makes women subservient to their sons. If you fail to establish authority when they are young, they won't respect you when they get bigger & stronger than you"

This doesn't make sense. Is spanking the only way to establish authority? Is every son bigger and strnger then their mother? Does every son who was not spanked not respect their mother?

OK, say you're right and spanking teaches children that people resolve problems with violence.

What's wrong with that? Ultimately, that's the way the adult world works. If an adult breaks the law (analagous to a child breaking the "rules") the police come and enforce against him. And they don't use time outs, hugs, and 1-2-3 magic. If you don't agree to come to jail peacefully, they grab you and take you against your will. If you've seen the police work, that can be (justifiably) pretty violent.

Aren't you teaching your children a valuable lesson regarding respecting authority and rules (and disputing them at the proper time and place -- not by simply breaking the rules) when you spank?

Of course, I'm ruling out any abusive behavior and simply talking about a judiciously administered swat or two on the bottom.

Mr Honda, I read the article and it was pretty funny. But I have to say if you took any cohort regardless of profession in that age group (50-60 year olds) in the US, you would probably find the majority were spanked. I think it is a function of the generation versus the profession. But I have to say the article was a bit funny. I can't imagine all these big wigs talking about childhood spankings.

another #11 - learn how to shoot a one-raised-eyebrow look. You know, the one the disciplinarian teacher used to shoot at you when you misbehaved. The one that would make you stop what you were doing without anyone saying anything. I am still working on it, but my mother has a great one.

"Not spanking when warranted is the kind of activity that makes women subservient to their sons. If you fail to establish authority when they are young, they won't respect you when they get bigger & stronger than you"

I disagree. I think all you convey is that you are spanking them because you are bigger and stronger--i.e., you are a cowardly bully who will stop spanking them when they are old enough to react.

Can anyone speak to how you manage different discipline styles between families and caregivers. I'd love some advice on how to do that? The pre-school seems a little lazy in that department.

I don't think this has been posted already -- it is an excerpt from a David Brooks op-ed piece in today's New York Times.

"Later, [Calvin Trillin] writes, 'When it came to trying to decide which theories of child-rearing were highly beneficial and which were absolutely ruinous to the future of your child - a subject of considerable discussion among some parents we knew - we agreed on a simple notion: your children are either the center of your life or they're not, and the rest is commentary.'"

ICA - funny about the eyebrow or what I call the look - it still stops me in my tracks when my father shoots ones at me. It is a sort of, I am not going to deal with this now, but wait until we get home and your will get an earful.

CJB

Sorry but I disagree with you on this one. All families are different and if this works for father of 4 and his family great! My father was almost killed in a mining accident when I was 5 years old. You can bet your butt that he told my brother to take care of me and my mom on the way to the hospital.

I don't think it makes me any less of a person or subservient to my brothers. In fact, my mother and I have both of them wrapped around our little fingers. I don't think that when men tall their sons to take care of the family that they mean it in a way that warrants keeping them in the house, uneducated with an apron tied around their waists. I know my father always meant don't let anyone mess with your sister. I don't consider it a bad thing, I feel lucky knowing that I have two very strong men who are always there for me in times of need. (ten if you count my dad, husband, and nephews)

However, you are free to disagree, and like I have said before, I don't subscribe to the prominent form of feminism that is sometimes displayed on this board so maybe I am the odd one afterall.

"Not spanking when warranted is the kind of activity that makes women subservient to their sons. If you fail to establish authority when they are young, they won't respect you when they get bigger & stronger than you."

That's bull. We're not neaderthals, and there is no reason to think that you cannot establish authority without violence. My husband and I have never hit our son, and he still understands that we have authority over him. Plus, since we have never modelled hitting for him, he does not resort to hitting when he is frustrated or angry. He uses his words. It takes more work and imagination to discipline a child without hits and smacks. But it can be done. Hitting is the punishment of choice for those who are too lazy to come up with something better. And just because previous generations did it is no reason to continue it.

The USA Today article cracks me up - what a weird thing to try and correlate, especially without comparing to the general "rate of spankings" across the population. Also, I'd say that children attaining corporate success may not be a strong indicator of parenting success for a lot of us - I'm a lot more interested in my child being loving, kind, thoughtful than I am in him being a CEO. I don't know what kind of men those CEO's in that regard, and what kind of fathers, husbands and citizens they are.

Like Leslie, I loved the book "Operating Instructions" by Anne Lamott. I give it to all moms-to-be at their baby showers and reread it myself from time to time.

Brian, I really like your manifesto! I think I would only one items to it. Don't threaten a punishment you won't carry out. If you say to a child "If you hit your sister one more time, we will not go for ice cream tonight", you'd better be willing to follow through (even though you really, really want the ice scream)! And the consistency thing is a big one for me.

Also, I don't really care for Dr. Phil, but something I once heard him say has stuck with me and I always try to remember it: children should be able to predict with 100% accuracy what will happen when they disobey a parent's rules. I don't know if 100% is possible, but my husband and I both aim to communicate the rules (repeatedly) to our children and follow through as promised -- or threatened. :)

"OK, say you're right and spanking teaches children that people resolve problems with violence. What's wrong with that?"

Using violence to resolve problems:

Spousal abuse
Child abuse
Elder abuse

On and on and on ....

anyone remember the wooden spoon?

Leslie - I just spit out my tea reading your post. I'll have to ask my husband how he feels about spanking!

I completely agree with Brian about What to Expect, but only in hindsight. I read the book cover to cover while I was pregnant and felt like a huge failure because I wasn't following all the "rules." Any book that makes you doubt yourself or your parenting skills should be ripped up and tossed aside!

Spanking, well that's a lightning rod topic isn't it? I can see spanking a child in an emergency or dangerous situation - like running into the street. But spanking a 2 year old for dumping stuff of the highchair??? Wow. My two year old is a sponge. He watches everything we do and he wants to do everything Mommy and Daddy do. If we spanked him, or even swatted him on the wrist, he would turn around and do it to his little brother, the cat, and the kids at daycare. Great lesson. If your 2 year old keeps dumping the dish off of the high chair, TAKE THE DISH AWAY!

Brian - I'll add to your manifesto (feel free to post on your page):

11. Don't feel guilty about your parenting choices. If you want to work, do it and be proud. If you want to stay home, do it and be proud. What's best for you is best for your family.

12. Learn to say "I'm sorry." We all make mistakes and teaching your children by example to take responsibility for their actions will be invaluable.

http://lawyermama.blogspot.com

I totally agree with the idea that you not reward children for misbehaving. There are more than a few totally annoying people out there who got that way because negative attention was the only kind they'd ever get.

I also think never hitting your kid is the best way. Of course I hit my kids now and then. But you know what??? IT NEVER DID ANY GOOD. I wish I'd had more self-control. Then they would have modeled something worthwhile.

To Working Mom X: You bring up an item that, in retrospect, should have been on the list. Thanks!

"I have 3 boys. They are rambunctious as caged horses. They play-fight, wrestle, do tackle football. They are marksmen with the bow and pistol. The oldest is in the military and I can count on one hand the number of times I have spanked him in his lifetime. He is disciplined, motivated, loyal, respects authority, sacrificial. I raised him to be a man, not a sissy. He will do his duty to God, his family and his country. At home, he will be the one protecting his family, not his wife. She will sleep safe and secure under his love and protection.
Posted by: Dan | December 14, 2006 01:50 PM"

God Bless you Dan, sounds like you have some fine sons. My husband is one of 3 boys and your parenting style sounds pretty familiar. One thing - there is nothing wrong with women learning how to defend themsleves when husbands aren't home. Marksmenship applies to even the fairer sex!

ANyone else's mom use the ear pulling and/or Spock pinch on the shoulder? Remarkably effective!

What do the "non violent" parent tell their kids to do if someone hits them? We told our son - you don't ever hit anyone else first, but if someone hits you, you are more than welcome to hit them back.

"Not spanking when warranted is the kind of activity that makes women subservient to their sons. If you fail to establish authority when they are young, they won't respect you when they get bigger & stronger than you"

Umm, wow. I kinda figure my 1-yr-old son WILL be bigger than me one day. Which is reason no. 1 why I DON'T want my authority over him to be based on my physical ability to pick him up and smack his behind.

If you want to establish your authority by spanking, that's your choice. But if you think that's the only way to do so, then I'd suggest you have a chat with my 85-yr-old, 5'2" Granny, who is far and away the most effective disciplinarian I have ever met -- despite the fact that I can't ever recall her even yelling at me in anger, much less spanking. You just don't mess with Granny (to this day, I still quake when someone calls me by all three names, because that was a SURE sign that I was in big trouble).

"I feel lucky knowing that I have two very strong men who are always there for me in times of need. (ten if you count my dad, husband, and nephews)"

Its the age old problem - a woman's fate is linked to the strength, wealth and status of the men in her life. Does it occur to you to feel "lucky" that there are very strong women who have always been there for you?

I sure do remember that wooden spoon. I have shown my sons an identical spoon and they were shocked to hear I had been hit with it several times growing up.

We have never spanked our sons, but the older did receive a few swats when he was a pre-schooler just to get his attention. We used to grab his shoulder, not enough to hurt, but enough to make him stop what he was doing. My younger son would obey just with "the look." We rarely yell at them, and, honestly, they almost never do anything wrong. They are now 12 and 9, and we call them young men. They rise to the occasion and our expectations.

corporal punishment has its place. i have lived in many countries. the standard punishment is jail time plus 10 lashes of the cane. now this 'aint your momma's feather duster. It's a 1-inch thick, 7ft long pole of fury. after a good dose of whup @ss, the criminal isn't so ready to reoffend.

see in america, criminals get jail (just like time-out) but get a gym, tv, privileges. they come out and reoffend. it is like your enlightened parenting style. spare the rod, spoil the child.

i am not talking about child abuse, but like the other poster said, "a judiciously administered swat or two on the bottom." is effective disipline.

anyone remember the wooden spoon?

Nope

When I was 10 someone hit me on the playground, and I responded 'well, that was a mature response', I got hit again by the same kid who was really mad and then insulted...

I only learned the lesson of not hitting back because several months before that I hit back and got a detention along with the kid that hit me (little did I know at the time it was pre-adolesent flirting). I was told that 'two wrongs do not make a right' and it was important to be the mature one in a conflict (which I was not quite sure what that meant).

I hope that my child will not hit back. At her school they teach to tell the children to use their words and respond "I do not like that", "please do not hit my body", and/or "that is not nice, please say sorry"... keep in mind that this is a Quaker school

"At home, he will be the one protecting his family, not his wife. She will sleep safe and secure under his love and protection."

Unless your son's going to be at his wife's side every waking and sleeping moment, I hope you expect that his wife has the sense, knowledge and ability to protect the household as well. Otherwise, their kids are only safe when Dad's home.

The problem with a 5 year old kid or one around that age is that for some reason they think they can get what they want by resorting to physical methods. Not all are that way, but when a child spits or throws food in your face, or punches you in the groin when they pass you after being called in from playtime, they are the ones who introduced the violent behavior. They started it, It's up to YOU to finish it.

I, for one, will not be pushed around by a 5 year old spoiled brat.

When it comes to all other disobedient behaviors, like stealing cookies, backtalk, I think other methods of correcting that kind of behavior are far more effective than spanking them.

Singlemom:
My research has been done. Just because you chose to read only the research that supports your plight doesn't mean the majority of it is backing your opinion. Just read Mr.Honda's post right below yours...there is plenty of "research" showing the benefits of both sets of discipline. Is this your way of trying to say, "nanny nanny boo, I'm better than you?" I'm not buying it. People! There is a difference between a thwap on the rear and child abuse. Being given the "fish eye" didn't work for me. That simply told me "Gee, if this is the worst that will happen to me, well I'll just keeping doing A or B and I can take the consequences." A thwap on the butt put me in my place. Smacks to the face or other body parts never happened...that is crossing the line. I just want to laugh at people who continue to believe a spank to the bottom is promoting violence or acting like a bully. I can't take these people seriously.

Trixie,

That is not what I meant at all and anyone who posts regularly here knows that I value strong women and that I am one. I make almost as much money as my husband and way more than both of my brothers. I am not basing my self worth on any of the three things you listed. However, there have been times in my life that I needed my dad, brother, and husband much more than I needed my mother or sister and vice versa. I don't think that is bad and I am not going to apologize to you or anyone else for feeling that way.

However, thanks for trying to make something more out of my post than what was intended.

some people are slower (dumber?) than others and need the swat... sounds like you were one of them

Actually, it is patently obvious to me that you and Mr. Honda were spanked as children. I can tell from your postings that there is a thinly veiled hostility underlying most of your postings.

people her aren't going to give an inch.

they will keep arguing their position.

don't waste your breath.

"At home, he will be the one protecting his family, not his wife. She will sleep safe and secure under his love and protection."

Yuck! Are there really women who will marry under these terms? What happens when the husband's eyes go and his guns are useless? I sleep safe and secure because I live in a safe neighborhood; nothing to do with having a man in the house. Haven't you ever heard of single moms?

Poor scarry, now the femi nazi's are going to get ya!

My younger brothers were occasionally spanked for their misdeeds. I remember once they were planning a Saturday outing to the lake. They were going to ride their bikes and go fishing, but they were not allowed to go that far by themselves. One of them said, "If dad finds out, we'll get spanked." They both thought about it and decided it was worth it, so they went anyway.

I think that the comment was more figurative then literal on being able to sleep safely at night. It sounds like this man is very proud of his son, and raised him to be a man. We may all have different interpretations of what that means, but and to this father he points out the traits he focused on providing; but his son could also be sensistive, a great father, and a wonderful friend. That married a woman that can take care of herself!

As a single mom, I do it everyday, but it does not stop me from time to time to wish for someone to take care of me - or the problem at hand (because I am tired, frustrated, etc). I hope this does not make me any less of a woman, or diminishes my daughters views of me as a stong woman and role model...

love and be loved... pretty good lesson.

I only have a few, but you're welcome to publish them if you wish.
I'm not a parent, but I was a child. These are some things my parents did right.

1. Let your kids teach you who they are. Be okay with the kid you got, and don't waste time trying to make them into the kid you wish you got. If she tells you she's going to be an electrician, help her to be a really good electrician--don't try to make her into a doctor.

2. Let them have darkness. Ghost stories, sad stories, deaths of pets or older relatives: these are like vaccinations against the later and greater hurts they will face. They need to learn early on that they are capable of being brave.

3. They may look cute and sweet and little, but in their own heads they're life-sized, and so are their friends and enemies and desires and hurts. Take them seriously. Weigh their suggestions. Understand that these little situations will become patterns and metaphors for big situations.

Helcat and single mom - The Academy of Pediatrics is not raising my child, I am. If I followed all of their guidelines my kids would live in a bubble.

I got spanked a few times as a kid, as did my husband, neither of us ever had anger management issues as a teen or adult. The only time I slugged someone was in college and it was self defense.

I love how people equate beating a child to a swat on the behind. I have seen people berating and humiliating their children in public, talking to them like they are idiots - so much for using words. Verbal abuse is a much bigger problem.

Single Mom: Do you have specific research that shows spanking correlates to spousal and child abuse? If so - please provide it. We would be a nation of thugs if it were true - as corporal punishment was standard in schools up until the "age of enlightenment" - the 1960's. Today I guess it is ok to have little Johnny and Susy using profanity and teasing and cajoling other kids to do bad things - since they are just "using their words to express" themselves.

Poor scarry, now the femi nazi's are going to get ya!

Posted by: | December 14, 2006 02:25 PM

Guess what, anon at 2:25? Scarry is confident enough in her very reasonable opinions that she attaches at least some form of name to them, and doesn't feel the need to insult posters who subscribe to varying points of view. You might consider following her lead.

Helcat - I am sorry that you feel that way. BTW I was only hit once or twice while growing up, and really do not have hostile feelings towards you or anyone else for that matter.

I just feel sorry for the kids that you are hitting because you do not want to take the time to learn other (perhaps more effective) ways of getting through to them.

Also, as for the article you are referencing - my response is - not all smokers get cancer, but if you smoke your liklihood increases.

I agree that many parenting books do little to improve parenting and much to increase stress. Here's one on that very subject: "Parents Who Think Too Much Why We Do It, How to Stop" by Anne Cassidy (Published by Dell Trade Paperbacks, 1998) The question on the cover asks "Are you listening to the 'experts' instead of trusting your instincts ... and your heart?" I recommend it.

Father of 4

"They started it, It's up to YOU to finish it. "

Real mature.I take it you are referring to the kid you hung the "Annoying Son" label on, great idea. Since he has been annoying since at least almost the beginning of this blog, this has been going on for a while and your methods are not working.

Your son's behavior is not normal and he is obviously crying for help. Just as you did when your parents beat you with a leather strap. You seemed to have learned nothing. Your whole family probably needs big time counseling.

How about "Soy Toy"?

To: ToHelcat:

Wow...was that your form of name calling? Way to go! Sounds like someone needs a thump on the rear!

single mom: "I just feel sorry for the kids that you are hitting because you do not want to take the time to learn other (perhaps more effective) ways of getting through to them"

That is so condescending. You espouse a "to each his own" view them slam someone else's legitimate choice. Just state your opinion and leave it at that rather than try to sound like something you are not.

As for being hit on the playground, I have taught my kids the 1, 2, 3, rule. 1. Tell them to stop 2. if they keep it up - hit them back 3. Wait for the sissy to go cry to the teacher/parent because all bullies are sissies.

If a school has a problem with self-defense they will have a lawsuit on their hands.

Yes, I could have predicted you would respond with some kind of violence.

Singlemom:
Well then we both feel sorry for each other, I guess. And, I never said spanking is the only form of discipline I use. It is one of many options, trust me. Also, I like how you changed my word spanking to hitting. You are trying very dramatically to make the spankers out there sound like monsters. Thank goodness there are rational people who know this is not the case.

Are people seeing how these posters like Singlemom and ToHelcat (different from the actual Helcat) are attempting to demonize the spankers? Please take the time to actually read this sentence: Spanking does NOT equal hitting or violence. Please spare us all the drama! If you consider a thump on the rear to be violence, then you obviously need to watch a few more action flicks or just turn on the nightly news to get a better sense of the difference, and a reality check.

spanking good
violence bad

Two thoughts on spanking:

I was in Best Buy the other day with a girl friend looking at stuff. A 10-year-old boy ran up to me and hit me (kinda hard) on my leg, waited a moment, then turned and went back to his mom, who was an aisle over. I was so shocked I didn't do anything. Now, after some thought, if that happens again, I'll take the kid to his mom and tell her what he did. This may get the kid yelled at or hit, or may get me yelled at or hit, but at least will teach the kid that not all grownups don't mind when you hit them.

Also, my parents live in a small town in Texas (outside of Austin) and they have a very highly-regarded school system, because it (unlike the others) uses corporal punishment. My parents, hippies that they are, were horrified when they first found out.

You just keep digging yourself in deeper. In addition to the damage that's clearly been done to you by your parents' spanking you, you watch too much TV and have become immune to violence. Hitting someone (lightly or otherwise) IS violence whether you choose to define it that way or not. Study after study backs up the idea that spanking children does nothing but harm to them. And case after case before Child Services in every state shows that in some cases, it kills them. How do you KNOW that you are capable of telling when you cross the line? Why take the chance?

What you call it is semantics: Spanking, smacking, hitting, whipping, beating, etc. It all boils down to the the idea that you are using violence and physical pain as a form of punishment. Yes, there are extremes. A swat on the butt is probably not as bad as a beating with a belt. But where to draw the line is a very subjective thing. Some people think that using a belt is appropriate. Others, like me, think it's barbaric. And if we were to agree that a mild swat on the butt is not abuse, who is to say that taking away priveleges, like play dates or tv or whatever the child really enjoys, is not more effective? Just because something may not rise to the level of abuse does not mean it is a good idea.

Spanking is defined by Merriam-Webster as

to strike especially on the buttocks with the open hand

To strike : HIT

Look it up.

If I were to spank my toddler when he misbehaved then he would spank his little brother when the baby "misbehaved". Possibly with his baseball bat. So I eschew spanking.

Regarding sons protecting their families: The most useful thing anyone ever said to me was my boss' wife, years ago, regarding being afraid of a fire while asleep at night. She commented that before she went to bed she would mentally review her escape routes from the home, make sure the phone was next to her bed, etc. It begat in me a continuing habit of preparing for emergencies by practising possible situations in my head and reviewing the options while my mind is cool. I think women should protect their kids every bit as much as men. The real world is not like "Walker, texas ranger" where you can kickbox every intruder.

Emily - It is not semantics. Your assumptions that spanking is the only form of discipline I or Helcat or whomever use is only to frame your argeument in a "violent" way. Spare me the lecture.

Anonymous said "Some of us still believe that the protection of the home falls under the purview of men, and that is fine."

This is the kind of attitude that makes women subservient to their sons."

That is such an unfortunate attitude. I hope you can understand that acts of providing and protecting can come from a sense of responsibility and love. I feel the need to protect my family (wife, children AND parents), and I don't expect them to be subserient to me (and their not, believe me!)

Your comment just seems really knee-jerk to me, you associate a son wanting to provide for his mother (or even just perceive that he is) as an assault on motherly authority ... any insecurity issues there?

I second (third, fourth, whatever we're up to) the recommendations for 123 Magic and for logical consequences. 123 Magic is great for imposing consistency on the parent, and for draining discipline of its anger/ emotionality. The consequences to the child of persisting in an infraction are absolutely clear and sure to follow, not negotiable. It has worked wonderfully for me, as a parent who prefers flexibility, rationality, and openness in responding to my kids, as a way to signal that negotiation and flexibility are over, that whatever the issue is they are now being told not asked, and I expect compliance. Because I always follow through, starting "That's 1" cues them to comply, and it's very rare that they don't (after the initial testing phase, years ago). But then again, I don't impose rules or cease-and-desist orders unless they're merited; I believe a kid's life should be structured to include many more yeses than nos.

I guess in my manifesto would be never say no reflexively, but ask yourself 'why not'? (This may have come from Penelope Leach; obviously I'm in the camp that thinks if you pick and choose your parenting books, you can find great resources to better understand, nurture, and manage your child; and I second the usefulne