Happy Father's Day, Dad

In honor of Father's Day, I asked writer Joel Rose to share his thoughts on fatherhood. Thank you, Joel.

By Joel Rose

My father worked nights. A 4 p.m. to 4 a.m. shift. I woke at 5 to be with him. He always brought home the newspapers, the New York Daily News, the Mirror, and a bag of jelly doughnuts. We sat at the kitchen table looking at the box scores and talking sports, me just being with my dad, us being together. He called me "Boy."

By the time I came home from school, he was gone.

I still get up at 5. I make coffee, go to my desk and work. Once my boys get up, I'm theirs. I follow them into the kitchen and make them breakfast. While they're eating. I make their lunch. I give them their vitamins and a glass of water, pick out their school clothes, and get them dressed. I put the little one's socks on, and double-knot his zebra-striped sneakers.

My wife takes them to school. I pick them up.

I am not the only father at the school gate. The boys and I walk the 12 blocks home unless the weather is totally intolerable. Then we take the subway. I keep constant vigil. Don't let them near the tracks, shepherd them close to the tiled wall, remind them to mind the gap between the subway car and the platform. I feel like an animal in the wild, shielding his cubs from dangers in the jungle. My boys call me "Papa."

At home, they generally gravitate toward meerkat chatlines and Webkin play stations on the computer. The little one will draw, sometimes for hours on end. Once their mother comes home, they run to her. Having been at the office all day, she is tired, but her attention is all on them.

I have generally made dinner. We sit down and eat together. The boys do their homework. Karen ushers them to bed. Oftentimes, from our bedroom next door down the hall, I listen to the murmur of the boys' and their mother's voices.

Sometimes on the way home the boys and I run errands. One afternoon, after school, straggling back to our apartment, we stopped at the drugstore. The pharmacist, Harvey, looking at the boys, said to me in all innocence, "You're Mr. Mom, aren't you?"

I felt vaguely insulted. I'm not Mr. Mom. That's not how I look at myself. The boys have a mother. A wonderful mother. Circumstance dictates she works outside the home, I work in the home. We are parents together. I'm a father.

The world looks at a father who participates fifty-fifty in his child's upbringing as a hero. But I don't think of myself as a hero. I think of myself as privileged. I am privileged to be a father participating in my children's lives.

My father passed away 10 years ago. He never got to meet his grandsons. The loss is his, the loss is theirs, the loss is mine. Happy Father's Day, Dad. I miss you. Happy Father's Day to all.

Joel Rose's new novel is The Blackest Bird. He is also the author of a recent Marie Claire article, Why I Love My Alpha Wife. He lives in New York City with his family.

By Leslie Morgan Steiner |  June 15, 2007; 7:00 AM ET  | Category:  Dads
Previous: Buying Time | Next: Daddy's Home


Add On Balance to Your Site
Keep up with the latest installments of On Balance with an easy-to-use widget. It's simple to add to your Web site, and it will update every time there's a new entry to On Balance.
Get This Widget >>


Comments

Please email us to report offensive comments.



It's always been my assigned task to teach our kids how to tie shoelaces. Yesterday I began training for my 4 year old son:

1 Do the crossover knot.
2. Make the bunny ear.
3. wrap the other lace around the ear.
4. poke it through the little bunny hole.
5. Grab it with your fingers on your other hand to make 2 bunny ears.
6. pull firmly to tie the bunny ears in a knot.

Anyone have a better training model? Looks like this one will take a few months.

And what's So wrong about being called "Mr Mom"? If it's a gender role issue, the statement begs the question.

Posted by: Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 7:29 AM

Congratulations on being a great dad Joel, you had a terrific role model! This is my husbands first Father's Day without his dad and I know it will be hard for him - he was a great dad too.

Happy Father's Day to all the regulars, lurkers and even the trolls.

Posted by: cmac | June 15, 2007 7:29 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot. FIRST!

Posted by: Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 7:30 AM

I didn't have a father. I crawled out from under a rock.

Posted by: Troll | June 15, 2007 7:40 AM

"meerkat chatlines"

Ha, ha! Me, too!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 7:47 AM

Okay, I'm totally clueless. someone please explain what a meerkat chatline is. (I do know webkins).

Thanks

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 7:50 AM

Hands down, this is one of the best posts I've seen on this blog. It's thoughtful, honest, and reflects an excellent sense of life balance. Congratulations, and happy father's day!

Posted by: VAMom | June 15, 2007 7:59 AM

Awe thanks, cmac. I appreciate the thought.

Just don't give me one of those gay, sappy, unpersonalized Hallmark cards with your name signed at the bottom so you don't have to think up your own words as the Google Ads are pushing and make me pretend I appreciate your thoughtless effort.

And no helium balloons either, unless you wish to be thanked in a super high pitched, squeaky little voice.

Just bring me a cold one and tell me how wonderful I am in your own words as I kick back in the Master's chair. That will do just fine.

Posted by: Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 7:59 AM

My high school nurse never got over the fact that it was Dad not Mom who picked me up when I got sick. Dad worked for himself seven blocks away from school and Mom was 20 miles away at a state job.

She would always ask "shouldn't I call you Mom?" I would say no my Dad will be in and he can get me. Happy father's Day
Dad and Happy birthday on Wednesday.

I am teaching DD lessons from my Dad nearly every day.

Posted by: shdd | June 15, 2007 8:01 AM

My high school nurse never got over the fact that it was Dad not Mom who picked me up when I got sick. Dad worked for himself seven blocks away from school and Mom was 20 miles away at a state job.

She would always ask "shouldn't I call you Mom?" I would say no my Dad will be in and he can get me. Happy father's Day
Dad and Happy birthday on Wednesday.

I am teaching DD lessons from my Dad nearly every day.

Posted by: shdd | June 15, 2007 8:01 AM

"Just bring me a cold one and tell me how wonderful I am in your own words as I kick back in the Master's chair. That will do just fine.

Pathetic. Really pathetic.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 8:02 AM

A pleasant read for this Friday. Thanks.

Posted by: Fred | June 15, 2007 8:02 AM

Must be great to grow up with a warm, loving father (mother)! Sigh.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 8:07 AM

My Father worked very hard to provide for us. Circumstances made it so he was away 6 days a week (we moved to a family farm in '69, he was a Chef). He missed most of my childhood and teen years. I was his only son with 6 sisters. After I joined the Navy, we had a fallout, I later learned he hid from us that my mother who hid the fact she was a gambler. He never said a bad word about her problem to us. I married later in life, have a great wife and Mom to my beautiful two girls. My Dad never saw my girls, he had a stroke and died on the day my first child was born. He taught me to be strong. When I look at my girls, with silent tears, I often think of my Dad. Mr. Mom way to go!

Posted by: two girls | June 15, 2007 8:12 AM

Here is Joel Rose's photo and bio!

http://www.joelrosebooks.com/bio.htm

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 8:15 AM

Very nice blog.
This is my second year without my dad. I still think about him almost every day. This year is even tougher as my mom is undergoing surgery in a little over a week for lung cancer.
Getting old sucks - not so much for me but for those around me who get old and sick.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 15, 2007 8:18 AM

"$700,000 pens and $40,000 purses represent a new luxury standard"
Friday, June 15, 2007
By Anne D'innocenzio, The Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Forget about the $350 stilettos. Shoes with status these days come with $1,000 price tags. And $600 handbags have become so bourgeois. A-listers don't want to be seen with anything costing less than $5,000.

It's no secret that luxury sales have been booming over the past six years. But at a time when the average American is grousing about meager wage growth and feeling strapped by a 30-cent spike in the price of gas, splurging by the wealthy has risen to gaudy proportions as the super rich seek new heights in pampering, price tags and one-of-a-kind items that set them apart.

"There's this insatiable appetite for the most luxurious," said Faith Hope Consolo, chairman of Prudential Douglas Elliman's retail leasing sales division, who has brought European designers including Versace and Valentino to the United States over the past two decades.

Luxury sales worldwide topped $150 billion last year, of which 30 percent came from the United States, where such sales have been rebounding after taking a pause following the 2001 terrorist attacks, according to Telsey Advisory Group's James Hurley.

While U.S. store executives say that the weakening dollar has fueled a surge of tourists from Asia and emerging countries like Russia, whom experts say tend to go for the bling, luxury stores don't have to just wait for foreigners. Sure, investment bankers and Internet entrepreneurs have kept luxury sales booming, but the latest source of new wealth are hedge fund managers -- the top 25 last year made more than a combined $14 billion a year, according to Institutional Investor.

Experts believe luxury spending -- growing at double-digit rates for many high-end purveyors -- won't lose momentum.

Some social experts warn the trend will only increase tensions between the haves and have nots.

The over-the-top splurging is happening at a time when the income gap between the wealthy -- those making more than $350,000 -- and everyone else is the widest since the Depression Era. And while the average American worker's income increased 4.6 percent in 2006, the wealthy have enjoyed double-digit gains.

According to Carol Brodie, chief luxury officer at CurtCo Media, the publisher of the Robb Report, which has an annual issue featuring the year's best-of-the-best like a $330,000 Mikimoto golden pearl choker, the super rich don't want just the expensive. What they are looking for is the rarest item, something that is custom-made and the best quality.

Unlike the 1980s and 1990s, "it's not about the logos," she said. "It shouts quietly."

Montblanc recently sold a $700,000-plus pen just a few days after it showed up in the New York store. The pen, adorned with rubies, sapphires and diamonds, took 15 months to handcraft. At Cartier, $1 million to $2 million sales checks -- rare only a few years ago -- are occurring a couple times a month at its North American boutiques.

Frederic de Narp, CEO and president of Cartier North America, said the largest bill tallied by a customer on a single visit last year topped $11 million. He would not give specifics on the purchase.

Louis Vuitton this spring pre-sold its limited number of $40,000-plus handbags made up of a patchwork of samples from different spring and summer collections. The bags cost only slightly less than the median household income of $46,326.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 8:18 AM

Very well written. It's dusty in my office all of a sudden.

Posted by: Proud Papa | June 15, 2007 8:32 AM

Joel,
It sounds like you and your wife have a great arrangement that allows you both to balance lots of time with your children and a meaningful career for each. And your kids get big doses of both their parents. This is my vision for families, too. A great example of equally shared parenting!

Posted by: equal | June 15, 2007 8:42 AM

Proud papa must work in my building as it is dusty here too - I think I have something in my eyes.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 15, 2007 8:45 AM

pATRICK

No bitter acid to spew on the blog today?

Posted by: Elaine | June 15, 2007 8:52 AM

This is a great posting. Personally, my dad has mostly been a sense of embarrassment, but as I've gotten older it's more amusement since I've grown up, etc.
I chose someone quite different to be the father of my kids. He is warm and loving and very involved with his kid's lives. We both work only a few miles from home so we can be very involved with them and aren't killing ourselves with commutes (of course being in atlanta, even tho we live so close, we couldn't really take mass transit).

Posted by: atlmom | June 15, 2007 8:59 AM

Buying presents for my dad is impossible, he has already purchased many of the things he wants (that I can afford). Which is okay, as I prefer to spend time with him and my family than getting him yet ANOTHER first edition. Or yet ANOTHER instrument.

As for husband, we're going to Hershey Park. I'm paying for the tickets. Let's hope someone else contributes to the co$t of con$umable$, after we've devoured what I will have packed.

*off-topic alert!*

I wish to thank Fred for bestowing his coveted "Quote of the Day" upon me yesterday.

Does it come with a tiara and a scepter? My "Evil Mom" membership (Member in Evil Standing) came with a card, paper crown and star on a stick.

For those who are wondering, here's the Evil Mom credo, "Someday they'll thank you for this. Really."

For Educmom,

I didn't make up "Run for your Life, Candyman", but I wish I had. You can find it online. I think Alliance Games sells it. Here's the blurb:

A twisted parody of a classic board game. Yours is a sugar frosted land of confection. But underneath the candy covered veneer lies a disturbing truth. The king is selling the sweet citizens out the back door to voracious children all over the world. Now it's a mad dash for the border to save your little candy buttons. And if you have to snap a few ginger limbs to do it - well, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

KLB SS,

I never pictured you as a prude ;-)

Pittypat,
Well, the problem is that I have a restraining order against the elves. I had to throw them out of the house as they were having sex with the laundry fairies on top of the washing machine while on spin cycle.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 14, 2007 05:46 PM

I'm in agreement with Educmom on this issue, ""if they're vacuuming and floor-mopping elves, they can come to my house anyway, as long as they close the laundry room door when they, you know, get together."

Posted by: Maryland Mother | June 15, 2007 9:01 AM

I'm lucky. My dad is still alive, and he was a father very much like today's guest writer. He's a terrific granddad too. I am his daughter in many ways, except his outstanding cooking ability. Fortunately, at least one child has potential for it.

Posted by: Maryland Mother | June 15, 2007 9:04 AM

In honor of all the great dads, especially DH, I won't talk about my awful father. Happy Father's Day to the good guys. Fo4, enjoy that cold one !!!

Great blog entry, Joel.

Posted by: anon for this | June 15, 2007 9:09 AM

Me? A prude? Heavens no! I was tired of paying a much higher water bill for the constant use of the washer.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 15, 2007 9:10 AM

Fairies & elves cavorting in the laundry room!! I want the video!

Posted by: Nigel | June 15, 2007 9:10 AM

Nigel,
You will have to contact maryland mother or pittypat for a video. No more elves and fairies in my house.
There are gremlins tho - I would love to catch them messing the place up while I am at work.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 15, 2007 9:12 AM

On the Mother's Day blog, I was one of those people that said what a horrible relationship I had with my mom. Well, here I am on the Fathers Day blog.

Last week, my mom's mother died and I had a hell of a time dealing with my mother during this time. My dad (divorced from my mom) stepped up and helped me through it. We had conversations about how things were when I was a kid and how he did the best he could. He admitted that there were problems but in the '80's he did not think he would have gotten custody of us, so he did the best he could. I needed that from him, and so this Father's Day I am sending him extra special love for always being there for me (even if I did not always know it) and being an incredible and awesome dad.

Thanks

Posted by: Anon for this | June 15, 2007 9:12 AM

Me? A prude? Heavens no! I was tired of paying a much higher water bill for the constant use of the washer.
Posted by: KLB SS MD

WSSC charges so much, you'd think the water was spiked with something festive for the rest of us. Not just elves and faeries.

Posted by: Maryland Mother | June 15, 2007 9:12 AM

There are gremlins tho - I would love to catch them messing the place up while I am at work.

One word, Nannycam.

Posted by: MdM | June 15, 2007 9:13 AM

What we' re doing for dad's day? Dunno. I bought him one of those figurines from the discover channel. And some boxer shorts. We didn't do anything for mom's day (it's too hectic for the kids sometimes- in the past we've gone to waffle house for breakfast-it's quick , no waiting etc).
We have a bday party at the neighbor's house, so we'll go there.
Nothing too exciting. I feel almost guilty tho- for the older one, they made stuff in school for mom's day(I got earrings and a hot wheels book!). But he's not in school now, so therewill be no contribution from that. *sigh* what can ya do.

Posted by: atlmom | June 15, 2007 9:15 AM

KLB SS MD

"There are gremlins tho - I would love to catch them messing the place up while I am at work."

I love gremlins! Spike (sigh) is my favorite.

Posted by: Nigel | June 15, 2007 9:16 AM

Are Maryland Mother, MdM, and other variations all the same poster? No wonder I have trouble tracking you!

Posted by: Blog Stats | June 15, 2007 9:17 AM

I do sometimes shorten it to MdM. But there is another poster, who is a physician, who uses MDMom, or MDMother (I forget which).

Posted by: Maryland Mother | June 15, 2007 9:19 AM

Me? A prude? Heavens no! I was tired of paying a much higher water bill for the use of the washer.

Posted by KLB SS MD June 15, 2007 9:10 AM

Well, that won't be a problem for me, because I have one of those high-effieciency front-loaders. Plus, I know I'll always have clean clothes!

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 9:20 AM

Blog Stats

"Are Maryland Mother, MdM, and other variations all the same poster? No wonder I have trouble tracking you!"

That might be the intention, you lowlife Gestapo flunky!

Posted by: intellectual freedom | June 15, 2007 9:21 AM

Maryland Mother,
Thanks. I'm going to buy that for myself for my birthday. We used to have game nights when the kids were younger, and we still have our annual Risk tournament when we go on vacation (extended family, beach house in Duck). We pick teams, and my sister and I won the first year. We have not been allowed to team up since (all the teams we beat were all-male, and I think they didn't like losing the 'game of world domination' to a pair of girls).
I can see Run for Your Life, Candyman becoming a family favorite!

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 9:27 AM

I have a wonderful father! I can't say enough about him, so I will just leave it at that.

Nigel,

I am so glad you on this blog. You are so fun!

Elaine,

I like Patrick. He's not that bad once you give him a chance. He just has strong opinions like everyone else on here.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 9:29 AM

scarry

Another oops -

"I am so glad you on this blog"

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 9:31 AM

scarry

Another oops -

"I am so glad you on this blog"

Give me a break already! I am without caffeine and trying to do my real job.

Don't you have anything nice to say about your old man, the moon, or Nigel?

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 9:34 AM

So, here is the guy: he is about 50 now. He mentions his "first daughter" in his bio, but not in the posting. Ok, she is supposedly an adult by now. Stil, could have mentioned. This begs a question: "first daughter" as in "there were more" or as in "during my first marriage"? Was an "alpha wife" an upgrade? Did he become a good father as he grew older? The guy ran $100 000 CC debt when his boys were preschoolers (see Marie Claire article.) Totally irresponsible. Something is fishy here.

Posted by: Numbers (and words) | June 15, 2007 9:42 AM

scarry

Another oops -

"I am so glad you on this blog"

So annoying. Can we have a most annoying post of the day award Fred?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 9:48 AM

My dad was a very short-fused man when I was younger. I was never physically abused or anything like that. As he aged, of course he mellowed alot. But one thing I will always cherish about him was that no matter what we kids did, whether we were in the right or wrong, he stood by us no matter what.

Dad is 82 now with alzheimers and loss of hearing. He isn't difficult and when I bring my 2 year old son over to visit (alot) he really brightens.

So, to my dad, thanks for all that you could be to me. I love you so much!!!

Thanks for a great thoughtful blog today!!!

Posted by: cj | June 15, 2007 9:48 AM

This was a fabulous column. It should also give everyone pause who commented that SAHdads are not to be respected and leeching off their wives. Joel has my utmost respect.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | June 15, 2007 9:48 AM

Joel,

Absolutely loved your entry. Brought tears to my eyes and made me think of how similar my family life seems to yours and how thankful I am of my DH and DS (now x2).

Posted by: londonmom | June 15, 2007 9:49 AM

pATRICK

No bitter acid to spew on the blog today?

Posted by: Elaine | June 15, 2007 08:52 AM

Real nice for a Fathers Day blog.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 9:51 AM

Rose's ex-wife, Catherine Texier, wrote Breakup: The End of a Love Story -

Seems that he dumped his wife & two daughters for greener pastures-

From Publishers Weekly
"Shortly after the author returned from a trip to France, the country of her birth, she discovered that her husband of 18 years and the father of their two daughters wanted to leave her"

Amazon.com
"When Joel Rose left his wife, Catherine Texier, and the East Village to move in uptown with an editor at Crown Books--which had just paid him $105,000 for his new novel--their acrimonious split was the talk of literary New York"

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 9:56 AM

More on the family Joel Rose scuttled:

http://www.amazon.com/Breakup-Love-Story-Catherine-Texier/dp/0385495234/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-9533667-1257227?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181915398&sr=1-3


No votes for Father of the Year from this wag!

Posted by: wag | June 15, 2007 10:00 AM

Joel -- Thanks for so concisely summing up everything I believe about fatherhood. A privilege indeed!

Posted by: Brian Reid | June 15, 2007 10:03 AM

Well done, joel. Fooled a lot of honest folks with a sappy story. They are just not used to NY rattlesnakes. And you are not even a lawyer... Btw, with book titles like "Kill the poor" and "Kill kill faster faster" the boys probably have a lot of 'splaining to do at school.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 10:04 AM

For the majority of fathers its not their day, they have been stripped of the rights as a parent at the time of divorce. It is the leading cause of suicide amoung men, ten times the rate for women. The day should really be named happy court or mommy's day.

Posted by: mcewen | June 15, 2007 10:10 AM

:Well done, joel. Fooled a lot of honest folks with a sappy story. They are just not used to NY rattlesnakes. And you are not even a lawyer.."

But the NY lawyers helped to pick up the rock he was hiding under...

Wonder if Leslie knew the back story of this guy?

Posted by: wag | June 15, 2007 10:11 AM

Great column, Joel. I was particularly struck by the comment that you feel "privileged to be a father participating in my children's lives." That's the way I look at it too. Although I work fulltime outside the home, I find myself wanting to spend time with the kids vs. anything else.

Posted by: DaddyMike | June 15, 2007 10:16 AM

Joel

"But I don't think of myself as a hero"

Do your 2 daughters from your first marriage think of you as a hero?

What a narcissist!


Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 10:18 AM

TO JEN S., concerning your post yesterday, that is exactly the reason, thanks for responding.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 10:22 AM

No one ever knows what is going on in someone's house or bedroom or marriage, so we have no idea why Joel's first marriage ended (regardless of how much press the divorce may have received). I think people often judge divorced and remarried men or women harshly out of fear that their own spouses will leave and find someone new. But the same people fail to understand that there may be very real, very valid reasons for the dissolution of the first marriage. One reviewer of ex-wife's book wrote the following:

"Texier's own unselfawareness, her own unwillingness to really be self critical beyond a few scattered moments, her inability to get beyond the sarcastic and repeated question, 'what did I do to you,' point up the difference between life and art. Texier confuses sex and love, and thinks that she can bind this man to her continually, even though he explains that he doesn't love her anymore, by passionate and wild sex, and then asks in a condescending and obviously insincere way, 'so what did I do wrong?' This memoir demonstrates the narcissistic self-obsession that probably caused the relationship to collapse in the first place."

People are so quick to judge - I'm not approving or disapproving Joel's choices ten plus years ago -- that's not my job -- but I do applaud him on THIS post regarding THIS topic.

Bravo, Joel. Keep up the good parenting to those boys. And you're a stellar writer.

Posted by: LL | June 15, 2007 10:22 AM

"Btw, with book titles like "Kill the poor" and "Kill kill faster faster" the boys probably have a lot of 'splaining to do at school."

Um, those are works of fiction. They are book titles. Why do some people always have to find something to pounce on when someone posts? You couldn't find anything wrong with his actual post so you had to go Google him?

Posted by: CDell | June 15, 2007 10:23 AM

To Joel Rose,
What a beautiful piece of writing. Thank you so much.

To all the dads on the blog,
Happy Father's Day.

Posted by: pittypat | June 15, 2007 10:25 AM

mcewen, aren't you tired of beating that same old drum?

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 15, 2007 10:27 AM

Wonder if Leslie knew the back story of this guy?

Posted by: wag | June 15, 2007 10:11 AM

Probably not. I think he has a new novel coming out, he wrote a mushy article about his alpha wife, and I imagine the excerpts and bio that his publisher sent to WaPo "forgot" to mention his first family -- after all, they *were* written by the publishing house where alpha wife works. He comes across as a supportive husband and loving dad -- and maybe he is for now, but at great cost to family #1.

Leslie, or her editor, did not do the minimal verification that a reporter should do -- they were taken in, as were we all on first reading the entry. I mean, I started having warm fuzzy thoughts about my dad (who was the morning person -- Mom was never an early riser) and I feel manipulated. Ugh!

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 10:28 AM

pATRICK

No bitter acid to spew on the blog today?

hmm, what a strange post. I generally attack ideas and in many cases people attack me personally, my wife and sometimes my kids. Now who really is spewing acid? Maybe YOU should look in the mirror and ask who really is full of "acid".

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 10:28 AM

"People are so quick to judge - I'm not approving or disapproving Joel's choices ten plus years ago -- that's not my job -- but I do applaud him on THIS post regarding THIS topic. "

Weird that a Joel's piece on FATHERHOOD doesn't mention his two daughters!

No applause here.

Posted by: wag | June 15, 2007 10:29 AM

To Father of 4:
Make the cross over knot
Make two bunny ears
Do a cross over knot with the bunny ears
For even better results, loop each cross over twice. Holds for 50KM at least.

Happy Father's Day All

Posted by: Stroller Momma | June 15, 2007 10:31 AM

Very nice post today. I do agree with the negative implications of the "Mr. Mom" comments though. I hate that phrase. I am not a SAHD but luckily I get to work at home several days a week and have a flexible schedule where I can be off regularly. I often take my 2 boys (2 1/2 and 1) places on my own to give my wife some time to herself since she is a SAHM. I have numerous times heard the Mr. Mom comment and it makes sad that society still feels this way. I have actually replied, no...I am Mr. Dad, their mom is at home getting some rest! As a Dad I have an equal role in parenting my children as I should have. If I am out at the grocery store with the kids I am not doing my wife's job, I am doing a parent's job.

Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there.

Posted by: HappyDad | June 15, 2007 10:32 AM

You don't have to be a SAHD to get that reaction unfortunately. My wife travels a lot and I have to do many of "mom" things. I get crap from men and women. Men who wonder why and women who think i must suck at it because I am a man.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 10:35 AM

Well put, HAPPYDAD.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 10:37 AM

cdell

" Why do some people always have to find something to pounce on when someone posts? "

"You couldn't find anything wrong with his actual post so you had to go Google him"

I clicked on the links JOEL PROVIDED; he dug his own grave.

My BS radar picked up some bad vibes and followed the trail.

educmom

Bingo! Manipulation IS what makes Joel tick!

Posted by: wag | June 15, 2007 10:37 AM

Try this...

1. Make the crossover knot.
2. Make two bunny ears.
3. Cross the bunny ears and pull tight.

Not the traditional way but easier for a 4 year old!

Posted by: To Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 10:38 AM

Let me clarify something -- my dad is the best! He got us up in the morning and out the door to school, he was always available (so was Mom until she started with the early-onset dementia), and he has always been supportive and loving. I only feel manipulated because Joel seems less than sincere, once you know a bit more about him -- for example, no mention of his older children in a piece about parenting.

I don't want anyone to think I don't appreciate my dad!

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 10:40 AM

pATRICK

"Men who wonder why and women who think i must suck at it because I am a man. "

I beg your pardon? "Suck at it"! "Men who wonder why"?


Posted by: Nigel | June 15, 2007 10:42 AM

I have no respect for men or women who cheat. How sad, I liked his post.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 10:42 AM

'People are so quick to judge - I'm not approving or disapproving Joel's choices ten plus years ago -- that's not my job -- but I do applaud him on THIS post regarding THIS topic.

Bravo, Joel. Keep up the good parenting to those boys. And you're a stellar writer."

A Woman here admits to being a former porn star and gets hugs and it's oks. This guy gets the cat o nine tails. C'mon be more "BALANCED". pun intended

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 10:43 AM

wag -- maybe wife #1 had issues, but I bet Joel's gift for 'selective truth' didn't help matters much

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 10:45 AM

"My father passed away 10 years ago. He never got to meet his grandsons. "

Did he get to meet his granddaughters? They don't exist for this piece of dreck?

What a clod!

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 10:45 AM

I have no respect for men or women who cheat. How sad, I liked his post.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 10:42 AM

Where does it say anything about cheating? (seriously, I didn't read the links)

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 10:47 AM

NIGEL, I am flattered that you are obsessed with me but like I said in the restraining order, you can't come within 1000 feet of me. Go find a nice boy to settle down with.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 10:47 AM

The complete story is important here. We don't need to judge, but I'm not buying this cr*p from a guy who has no integrity. If he were a good writer he would incorporate past events into his story and make it less one-dimensional. I suspect if I read his books (or are they graphic novels?) I will feel even worse about him, so I give him the benefit of the doubt here. His ex-wife also mentions that he had a 15 months affair with the woman whoi is his wife now, during their marriage. Both his ex-wife and himself did not do much to shield their teenage daughters from the ugliness of their divorce. He is not a good writer, and certainly not a good man. I'm not expecting perfect,but compared to him even Brian looks like a Father of the Year.

Posted by: Numbers | June 15, 2007 10:51 AM

Try this...

1. Make the crossover knot.
2. Make two bunny ears.
3. Cross the bunny ears and pull tight.

Not the traditional way but easier for a 4 year old!

Posted by: To Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 10:38 AM

I laugh at this one. There was a child I babysat when he was about 4 years old. This is exactly how I taught him to tie his shoes. His parents couldn't figure out how he learned that one (extra-smart? saw it somewhere?) and he didn't remember either.

Fast forward, oh, about 15 years and I brought it up in conversation, regarding teaching one of my kids how to tie shoes. Finally! The mystery was solved!

We had a good laugh.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 10:51 AM

Try this...

1. Make the crossover knot.
2. Make two bunny ears.
3. Cross the bunny ears and pull tight.

Not the traditional way but easier for a 4 year old!

Posted by: To Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 10:38 AM

I laugh at this one. There was a child I babysat when he was about 4 years old. This is exactly how I taught him to tie his shoes. His parents couldn't figure out how he learned that one (extra-smart? saw it somewhere?) and he didn't remember either.

Fast forward, oh, about 15 years and I brought it up in conversation, regarding teaching one of my kids how to tie shoes. Finally! The mystery was solved!

We had a good laugh.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 10:51 AM

Where does it say anything about cheating? (seriously, I didn't read the links)

It's on the link about the ex-wife's book.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 10:52 AM

"His ex-wife also mentions that he had a 15 months affair with the woman whoi is his wife now, during their marriage. Both his ex-wife and himself did not do much to shield their teenage daughters from the ugliness of their divorce. He is not a good writer, and certainly not a good man. I'm not expecting perfect,but compared to him even Brian looks like a Father of the Year."


Now that is certainly balanced. He has lost his credibility. I, like Scarry, hate cheaters. Dishonorable people should be avoided like the plague.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 10:53 AM

What a clod!

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 10:45 AM

Do you (or anybody) know why they divorced? Does anybody know both sides of the story?

Or is this just like yesterday, with little information, just assume the guy is an a$$h0le because he is a guy.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 10:53 AM

"I have no respect for men or women who cheat. How sad, I liked his post.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 10:42 AM

Where does it say anything about cheating? (seriously, I didn't read the links)"

Read the links including the ones submitted by posters. Apparently, he not only cheated, he stayed with his wife and continued to sleep with her after she knew of the cheating. He stayed until he was able to move to a nice place. I would have more respect if he had realized his marriage was over and moved out, anywhere, and left wife no 1 heal. To stay and have sex and leave false hope is below despicable. Also, talking about fatherhood without mentioning all children is beyond cruel.

Posted by: to devil's advocate | June 15, 2007 10:54 AM

'"My father passed away 10 years ago. He never got to meet his grandsons. "

Did he get to meet his granddaughters? They don't exist for this piece of dreck?'

Female children are not worth mentioning. Should be lobotomized at birth.

Posted by: mcewan | June 15, 2007 10:54 AM

Leslie,

The saddest part of finding out that the father was a cheater and doesn't seem to acknowledge children from his first family is that what started out as a promising day of nice blog entries will turn into something ugly. Please research a little better. Or, did you know, and expect a high response because of it?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 10:58 AM

For Educmom (and anyone else), another board game that we like playing.

"Kill Doctor Lucky"

Expanded by:

Kill Doctor Lucky: Craigdarroch
Doctor Lucky Ambivalence Pack, The
Kill Doctor Lucky... and His Little Dog, Too! (for deluxe edition)

Versions

1997 Original cardstock version (out of print)
2002 Director's Cut - cardstock - includes a second game board modeled after Kill Doctor Lucky: Craigdarroch
2006 Deluxe Edition - Complete, high quality, color edition from Titanic Games

Posted by: Maryland Mother | June 15, 2007 10:59 AM

What a nice post today. Every time I think I should give up on this site because it has become more about the bloggers than the story and balance, a piece or topic pulls me back in.

I am the couterpoint. I am the mom who has to work in the city and leaves as the kids do, only to return at 7 pm. My husband works from home and is lucky enough to coach the kids, pick them up from school, hear their stories from the day. It is not always easy and at times, I am filled with resentment. I want to do those things. But I know that I never had my father this involved in my life and would have loved it. I know my children adore their father and on Father's Day, I will make sure to remind him how precious he is and important this active role in their lives is as well.

Posted by: FormerNoVa Mom | June 15, 2007 10:59 AM

What a clod!

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 10:45 AM

Do you (or anybody) know why they divorced? Does anybody know both sides of the story?

Or is this just like yesterday, with little information, just assume the guy is an a$$h0le because he is a guy.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 10:53 AM

Never mind. /Emily Litella

Why couldn't Leslie find someone of character to use for this column?

--------------------
I'm not expecting perfect,but compared to him even Brian looks like a Father of the Year.

Posted by: Numbers | June 15, 2007 10:51 AM

What problem do you have with Brian?

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 11:00 AM

devils advocate

"Do you (or anybody) know why they divorced? Does anybody know both sides of the story?"

I DON'T CARE about the divorce!

The guy writes a piece on FATHERHOOD, mentions two sons and DOESN'T MENTION two daughters!!!!

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 11:01 AM

Being that a significnat % of married couples cheat, does a cheating husband/wife make for a bad father/mother?

Posted by: question | June 15, 2007 11:05 AM

"The guy writes a piece on FATHERHOOD, mentions two sons and DOESN'T MENTION two daughters!!!!"

to play devil's advocate myself, what if his daughters have no contact with himor he has a very poor relationship with them. Sometimes things are messy. Just a thought, still think he is a turd.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 11:06 AM

OT to pATRICK,

No problem-- I'm never surprized when people don't know that these three major world religions are literally related. Just look at the way these "cousins", these children of Abraham have treated each other, generation after generation. Shameful. But I guess nothing can make you as angry as family, right?

Still, it must truly break G-d's heart to see such hatred between those who should love and support each out of respect for their common ancestor (and common god)!

Posted by: Jen S. | June 15, 2007 11:07 AM

Being that a significnat % of married couples cheat, does a cheating husband/wife make for a bad father/mother?

Posted by: question | June 15, 2007 11:05 AM

No. But writing a piece about being a father, and conveniently overlooking your first two children, does raise doubts in many minds.

I mean, he didn't say how sad it was that his father never met his sons, but did meet his daughters. He failed to mention them in his loving piece about himself, as a father.

I find it very sad.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:07 AM

He is not a good writer, and certainly not a good man. I'm not expecting perfect,but compared to him even Brian looks like a Father of the Year.

Posted by: Numbers | June 15, 2007 10:51 AM

because we know what about Brian? I am not impugning Brian's character, but let's not kid ourselves that we know whether he's faithful to his spouse. We know about Joel because he's a writer, his ex- is a writer, and several of you cared enough to research it. News flash: you know less about everyone's marriage than you think.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:10 AM

"The guy writes a piece on FATHERHOOD, mentions two sons and DOESN'T MENTION two daughters!!!!"

to play devil's advocate myself, what if his daughters have no contact with himor he has a very poor relationship with them. Sometimes things are messy.

pATRICK,

Indeed things can and do get messy. But to fail to acknowledge them is hardly a great way to try and heal the supposed breech, now is it?

No matter their ages (and it looks like one was born around 1973), they are his children and I'm surprised and saddened that they do not rate a mention. Not even in passing.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:10 AM

Brian is a bit preoccupied with his little everyday problems. The Father of the Year award goes to the title character from the "Superman Returns" movie. Other contestants who have successfully saved the Earth please register for the next year selection.

Lets kill the bad feelings generated by the guest j*rk by sharing the good (even if rare!) moments we had with our fathers.

Posted by: Numbers | June 15, 2007 11:11 AM

pATRICK

"to play devil's advocate myself, what if his daughters have no contact with himor he has a very poor relationship with them."

Ya think?
Omitting them from this piece isn't going to help the relationship. Including his daughters might have helped the relationship now or down the road.

The guy's an incredibly self-centered fraud!

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 11:11 AM

For those looking for neat gifts, I sent my dad a Lobster Gram from Maine (you can Google them).

I ordered it Saturday for Thursday delivery, and it arrived Wednesday -- all individually frozen. You can get live lobsters as well. I didn't want to do that to my mother! The gift was a hit and will feed them for more then one night, too!

Posted by: Gift Ideas | June 15, 2007 11:13 AM

"Being that a significnat % of married couples cheat, does a cheating husband/wife make for a bad father/mother?"

I do, because it teaches children mommy and daddy can't be trusted and destroys the moral authority of the parent. If you will betray those closest to you, you are capable of anything.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 11:13 AM

Ya think?
Omitting them from this piece isn't going to help the relationship. Including his daughters might have helped the relationship now or down the road.

The guy's an incredibly self-centered fraud!

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 11:11 AM

It's ~300 words, we don't know anything about this guys relationship with his daughters, maybe they don't want to be in print.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 11:15 AM

It's ~300 words, we don't know anything about this guys relationship with his daughters, maybe they don't want to be in print.

Are you a cheater? Really, I can't believe how you are sticking up for this man.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:17 AM

Among the Christians, a man often names his son after himself: Jesse Jackson's son is Jesse Jackson, Jr.

Among Muslims, it can go both ways. The twelfth imam was Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali, meaning Muhammad the son of Hasan the son of Ali. But a man can also identify as the father of his son. Abu Ibrahim means, father of Ibrahim.

Would American Christian fathers be more appreciated if they went around calling themselves, Kevin the father of Kenneth, and the like?

Happy Father's Day to all the fathers reading this!

Posted by: Abu Ibrahim | June 15, 2007 11:23 AM

I do, because it teaches children mommy and daddy can't be trusted and destroys the moral authority of the parent. If you will betray those closest to you, you are capable of anything.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 11:13 AM

Spot on, pATRICK.

Cheating is the opposite of honor. It sends a message that you lack self-control, and that you think it is acceptable, under certain circumstances, to degrade and/or lie to your spouse.

I would caution everyone from assuming a spouse is always cheating though, when the spouse is unfaithful. Honesty and fidelity are two separate issues. To me, the betrayal I will not forgive in others is dishonesty. Some spouses may well have different tolerance levels and expectations, though, with respect to fidelity. You might be surprised at how many "flings" are, if not sanctioned, not hidden and/or condoned. It would be unwise for those of us who wouldn't tolerate infidelity for a nano-second to assume that all other married couples are playing by our rule book.

Posted by: MN | June 15, 2007 11:24 AM

"Being that a significnat % of married couples cheat, does a cheating husband/wife make for a bad father/mother?"

I do, because it teaches children mommy and daddy can't be trusted and destroys the moral authority of the parent. If you will betray those closest to you, you are capable of anything.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 11:13 AM

This assumes the children find out about it. If the children never know, can the cheating spouse be a good parent? What if they don't divorce and the other spouse forgives them?

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 11:25 AM

Sad about Joel's life -- for him and his daughters.

My father has no relationship with my brother, apparently didn't even want him. My parents are divorced. My father has no friends and is now alone with only my family to be with. I feel sorry for him and yet feel that he made his own choices in life -- so be it. Still, we will take him out dinner on Sunday.

He's a failure, yet not completely. He still has my goodwill and acceptance of his limitations. I have to wonder, how many men of his generation have doomed themselves to such an alone life through divorce and unease with their own children? Now, in their old age, it comes to bite them.

Posted by: Sarah | June 15, 2007 11:26 AM

"It's ~300 words, we don't know anything about this guys relationship with his daughters, maybe they don't want to be in print."

Do the sons want be in print? We'll never know. The phoniness of this guy makes me uncomfortable. The whole piece is self-serving and manipulative. Of course, that is what writers do best. This stinks!

Posted by: Cleo | June 15, 2007 11:30 AM

pATRICK, I tend to agree that when you cheat on your spouse, you cheat on your family because you lose their trust and respect. And for children to see one parent devastated and deeply hurt by this betrayal only makes it harder for them to one day to trust people and make loving marriage/families for themselves. Kids are the world's most gifted mimics.

But people do make mistakes. If a husband/wife has been selfish, they can display huge selflessnes to give their children a better life. Give your children the best of what you got but don't pass on the pain. Isn't that what fatherhood is all about?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:31 AM

Folks, I feel compelled to respond to some comments posted about my daughters and my relationship to them. My daughters are wonderful, intelligent, talented young women. They are a vibrant and remarkable part of my life and the lives of their brothers. I have written about them often, and even through the breakup of my life with their mother we remained close. Difficult times are difficult times. I find it remarkable that people can make presumptions not knowing anything about anything. Catherine is a writer and she chose to write a book. That is her right. I chose not to respond in the press to that book. That is my right. Her view on what happened in our lives was hers, mine was mine. Today Catherine and I are on good terms, better than good, and we continue to support and parent our children together to the best of our abilities. In this piece I had 350-500 words to write about fatherhood. I chose to limit that to my relationship to my father and my thoughts went to how he would have adored my sons. My father knew his granddaughters. He loved them and they loved him. As I wrote, he never met his grandsons. That was the scope of the piece. I wrote it from my heart.

Posted by: Joel Rose | June 15, 2007 11:33 AM

I am the child of a cheating father who moved on and had a new family before bothering to divorce my mother. I can tell you that not acknowledging his daughters, even if there is a bad relationship, may prevent him from ever having a relationship with them.

My father left my mother over 30 years ago and I have not spoken to my father for 27 years including the time 4 years ago when we were both at the funeral for his father.

It's not that kids can't handle divorce. It's the fact that the divorce is between married people and shouldn't be between the parent and child. No matter how strained the relationship, these are your children and you should "be a (wo)man" and rise above the unpleasantness to try to repair the parent/child relationship. And you should have enough respect for the mother/father of your children to not cheat while living with her/him. Marriages end, but move out before you break your vows. Or, at least, once you do break them move out ASAP - don't stay for months and continue to have an affair.

How does wife #2 feel knowing that he was continuing to sleep with wife #1 while fooling around with her? Oh, in my father's case, wife #2 is also an ex-wife.

Am I bitter? Not anymore, he's just a nothing to me, out of my life for too long to care or think about him other than as a small part of my long-ago past. The not speaking at my grandfather's funeral was because he is now a stranger to me and I have no desire to have a relationship with someone I have zero respect for. I didn't attempt to speak to me and he didn't attempt to speak to me either.

Posted by: anon for this | June 15, 2007 11:33 AM

Are you a cheater? Really, I can't believe how you are sticking up for this man.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 11:17 AM

Why didn't you go straight to pedophile? No, I am not a cheater, never have been and never will be. But my behavior has nothing to do with the discussion.

You don't have to be a cheater to realize that people make mistakes. People are not perfect and I was taught not judge people, especially based on a few words in a blog and a book written by a cheated on ex wife.

I am not really sticking up for him, but for the snapshot he took of himself in this short blog piece. I assume since Leslie chose him to write this piece, she considers him a man of character and a good father. (I hope she didn't choose him knowing this stuff would come out).

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 11:39 AM

Joel

"I wrote it from my heart."

And here are my self-centered, bullsh@t excuses for omitting the merest whisper of the existence of my daughters on a piece on FATHERHOOD on a blog about Balancing Family & Work. Duh!

Too little, too late.

Good luck with the next trophy wife and crop of kiddies!

Posted by: wag | June 15, 2007 11:41 AM

"This assumes the children find out about it. If the children never know, can the cheating spouse be a good parent? What if they don't divorce and the other spouse forgives them?"

Children are like sponges, they pick up everything. You would be surprised how many kids suspect infidelity. But if the couple can make the marriage work and rekindle their relationship, I think that is great. Infideity hurts children, and so does divorce which sometimes inevitably follows.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:43 AM

.....

Posted by: Joel Rose | June 15, 2007 11:33 AM

This is what I was trying to say.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 11:43 AM

...and I'm writing it from the pen, being able to hack into the prison computer. I'm a hard working man, getting my advanced degree at night. I volunteer everywhere I can, comfort my cellmates, and write thoughtful spiritual letters to my family. I planted the garden and water it with my sweat, blood, and tears. Never mind that I was sent here for premediated first degree murder, past is past, right? We all make mistakes...

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:43 AM

"It would be unwise for those of us who wouldn't tolerate infidelity for a nano-second to assume that all other married couples are playing by our rule book. "

Sadly, you are correct. But I for one will never trust anyone who cheats on their spouse. If you betray them, who knows what you may do to me. I read somewhere that honor is an island that once you leave you never can return to. I always remembered that. Now i will wait for the inevitable "you can make it work, forgive "etc posts.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 11:46 AM

The last part of the Marie Clare article by Joel Rose refers to a time when his place card refers to him as Joel Rinaldi-- i.e., the host assumed that he and his wife shared the same last name. Earlier this week i mentioned that i enjoy having one last name for legal/ professional purposes and use another, my husband's, for anything family/socially related.

this has worked fairly well (honest reflection of the split peronality I've developed as a working moms) but I was really upset when at the hospital my newborn was referred to by the staff for the first day or so by my legal/professional name. My husband said it didn't bother him at all, but I really felt it was weird because this was most definately a "family" moment and yet we didn't all share the same last name as what would have made me comfortable. I told the hospital that I wanted all the baby's information to be in the father's last name, but they said it was their policy to have newborns only referred to by the mother's last name.

anyway, I can understand Joel feeling a bit low when people assumed that his name is the same as his wife's. On the other hand, a name is just a name. At least the host had them sharing the same name, therefore making it clear to other attendees that they were married.

Posted by: Jen S. | June 15, 2007 11:46 AM

"But if the couple can make the marriage work and rekindle their relationship, I think that is great."

How does a couple do that after infidelity? How often is it sucessful?
Doesn't the wronged party look like a sap when it doesn't work?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 11:48 AM

...and I'm writing it from the pen, being able to hack into the prison computer. I'm a hard working man, getting my advanced degree at night. I volunteer everywhere I can, comfort my cellmates, and write thoughtful spiritual letters to my family. I planted the garden and water it with my sweat, blood, and tears. Never mind that I was sent here for premediated first degree murder, past is past, right? We all make mistakes...

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 11:43 AM

So we should imprison all adulterers? No, better yet, we can stone them to death in the city square.

All mistakes are not created equal. Idiot.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 11:49 AM

Marriage is a tough proposition these days. You do your best and try to make it work, and sometimes it doesn't. Just because Joel failed at his first marriage does not mean he has no right to enjoy the relationship with the sons of his second marriage. And no one knows for sure what happened in his first marriage, except Joel and his ex. Way to take a nice message and spoil it. As my grandma used to say, "The only place to find perfect people is the cemetary".

Posted by: Angry at the outrage | June 15, 2007 11:54 AM

Jen S.

"anyway, I can understand Joel feeling a bit low when people assumed that his name is the same as his wife's."

Be assured that this egotistical jerk who doesn't think "he is a hero" would never feel "low" about place cards!

No, Joel Rose and hero will never appear in the same sentence! What crust!

Posted by: wag | June 15, 2007 11:54 AM

We all know that pATRICK's really full of flan!

Posted by: catlady | June 15, 2007 11:56 AM

We all know that pATRICK's really full of flan!

HAHAHAHAHA, one can only dream!

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 11:58 AM

On Father's Day my father will be alone and will wonder why. He left my sisters and me 26 years ago and at times went years without contacting us at all, even though we lived in the same town. Now my father wants a relationship with his daughters and grandchildren but we have filled the void with loving friends and in-laws.
I wish my father a Happy Fathers Day and I will probably call him, but it will be an empty greeting. My true Fathers Day 'thanks' will go to my Father-in-Law, the man who taught me what a 'daddy' should be.

Posted by: courtney | June 15, 2007 11:59 AM

I'm uncomfortable with the part where joel refers to himself as a "beta" and his wife as an "alpha." It doesn't reflect the equality and partnership that I see between the two. It suggests that Joel thinks that the spouse who tends to the family needs is lesser than the spouse who brings home a steady paycheck.

Posted by: Jen S. | June 15, 2007 11:59 AM

"Just because Joel failed at his first marriage does not mean he has no right to enjoy the relationship with the sons of his second marriage."

But why doesn't he mention his two daughters in a piece about FATHERHOOD?

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 12:00 PM

"How does a couple do that after infidelity? How often is it sucessful?
Doesn't the wronged party look like a sap when it doesn't work?"

It's not easy but sometimes people make mistakes that they are truly sorry for. Sure there are unfaithful partners who are serial cheaters and just cannot stay stop hurting their spouse. But I would assume (I may be wrong) that most are accidental cheaters who are looking for comfort (subconsciously or not) outside of the relationship, and commit the mistake. That marriage may be salvageable if there is still love.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:03 PM

But why doesn't he mention his two daughters in a piece about FATHERHOOD?

Posted by: June | June 15, 2007 12:00 PM

He answered your question above:

Posted by: Joel Rose | June 15, 2007 11:33 AM

Is that good enough for you?

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 12:04 PM

Jen S.

"It doesn't reflect the equality and partnership that I see between the two."

Not to worry. When Joel grows tired of his aging wife, and she is no longer useful to his career, the equality and partnership will fly out the window. He'll dump this wife for the next young thing who will bolster his sagging ego. Goods luck to his sons when that happens!

Everything about this guy is suspect!

Posted by: Jake | June 15, 2007 12:08 PM

Do you know what I hate about cheaters is how some say "it just happened". That is a such a bunch of crap! You planned it, you lied, you arranged it and you approved it. I would have more respect for someone who just said, "I wanted to get laid by a new person. "

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 12:08 PM

"It would be unwise for those of us who wouldn't tolerate infidelity for a nano-second to assume that all other married couples are playing by our rule book."

Sadly, you are correct. But I for one will never trust anyone who cheats on their spouse. If you betray them, who knows what you may do to me. I read somewhere that honor is an island that once you leave you never can return to. I always remembered that. Now i will wait for the inevitable "you can make it work, forgive "etc posts.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 11:46 AM

I'm with you -- a person who cheats on his or her spouse has demonstrated that he or she places ZERO value on honesty. That person would lose my trust. If STBX had been caight cheating (well, maybe he did cheat, and I just never caught him) I would NEVER be able to look at him the same way again. I just dom't know how people manage to repair that damage and stay together.

Lighter note:
Happy dad memory (grandfather division):
When I was growing up, my mother's parents lived within walking distance of our house. My grandpop was a printer for the Sunpapers, and he worked Tuesday through Saturday until he retired. He was also an avid walker. He was also the sweetest man that ever lived. Every Monday, he would walk to the neighborhood bakery, buy a dozen donuts, and then walk to our house to visit my mom (his only child). He timed his visit so that my sister and I got home after he had been there for a while, and he spent time with us. To this day, those dense donuts with the dark chocolate icing on the top half that hardens reminds me of him. The minute mart on 32nd st in OC makes them, and I go there at least once a visit.

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 12:08 PM

Thanks for the wonderful Fathers Day Blog. Not.

Posted by: to Leslie | June 15, 2007 12:08 PM

"Just because Joel failed at his first marriage does not mean he has no right to enjoy the relationship with the sons of his second marriage."

But why doesn't he mention his two daughters in a piece about FATHERHOOD?"

Dunno. Maybe they were turned against him by his bitter ex-wife. Happened to my Dad when he divorced my Mom. She had custody of my younger sister who now hates him to the point of not inviting him to her wedding. He's no saint, but trust me, he did nothing to deserve that.

You just don't know, that's my point. But who cares? It was a nice piece, the guy is obviously not a criminal and he deserves a nice Father's Day.

On a positive note, this is my first Father's Day and I could not be happier. Wish I had married and had kids sooner, but I will take the blessings as they come.

Posted by: Angry at the outrage | June 15, 2007 12:08 PM

I really get tired of the whole "this person is a flawed human being, hence their statement/argument/believe is completely invalid" nonsense. Joel's personal life is not only none of our business, but it does not diminish his lovely, thoughtful post on fatherhood.

I'm sure if we held up a magnifying glass to many of the critical people's lives, we would find many flaws as well.

Posted by: CDell | June 15, 2007 12:09 PM

"For the majority of fathers its not their day, they have been stripped of the rights as a parent at the time of divorce. It is the leading cause of suicide amoung men, ten times the rate for women. The day should really be named happy court or mommy's day."

Oh, so true. Someone go console my poor ex-husband who has never paid a dime of child support yet who still sees his children 3 or 4 times a week.


Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:12 PM

"But I would assume (I may be wrong) that most are accidental cheaters who are looking for comfort "

Oh boy! Are you wrong!! "Accidental cheaters"!!!!! Ha, ha! That's a good one! What sap would fall for that lame excuse?

Accidental embezzlement, anyone?

Posted by: Jake | June 15, 2007 12:13 PM

I really get tired of the whole "this person is a flawed human being, hence their statement/argument/believe is completely invalid" nonsense. Joel's personal life is not only none of our business, but it does not diminish his lovely, thoughtful post on fatherhood.

If it is posted on the net and this blog, then it is our business.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:16 PM

Oh, so true. Someone go console my poor ex-husband who has never paid a dime of child support yet who still sees his children 3 or 4 times a week.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 12:12 PM

How nice of you to grant him access to his children, even though he doesn't pay. The fact that you let him see them means that no father anywhere at any time has ever been denied acces to his children, glad you solved that problem.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:18 PM

Jake,

Are children included in your definition of saps as well?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:18 PM

CDell

"Joel's personal life is not only none of our business, but it does not diminish his lovely, thoughtful post on fatherhood."

Duh! Personal life is part of fatherhood and vice versa! You go on the Net, you are fair game. Yes, someone who puts out a false persona does diminish their writings! The piece is crap!

Posted by: Spike | June 15, 2007 12:20 PM

I also agree with pATRICK that cheating on your spouse is an indication of your honesty and overall character. If I had caught STBX cheating (I don't know if he did or not -- and he probably doesn't know either) I would have NEVER been able to look at him the same way again. I just don't know how couples can ever repair that kind of damage.

On a lighter note:
Happy dad memory (grandfather edition):
When I was growing up, my mother's parents lived within walking distance of our home. My grandpop was a printer for the Sunpapers, and he worked Tuesday through Saturday. He was the sweetest guy in the world -- dry, easygoing, and kind. He was also an avid walker. Every Monday he would take one of his walks and to to the neighborhood bakery to buy a dozen donuts, then walk to our house and visit with my mom (his only child). He timed his visit so that my sister and I got home from school after he had been there about half an hour, and he would stay and spend time with us as well. He died in 1989, when son #2 was 3 months old, and I am forever grateful that he got to see his great-grandsons.

To this day, whenever I eat one of those dense donuts, with the dark chocolate icing on top that gets a hard crust and is more like a glaze (the minute mart on 32nd st. in OC makes them), I think of him.

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 12:22 PM

OK, I posted pretty much the same thing twice, because I thought post #1 didn't go through...DUH! Sometimes I HATE technology.

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 12:26 PM

Spike and 12:16-
It is 2007. EVERYONE is "on the net." So are we, at this very moment. If you posted with your real name as opposed to a signature name, we could go google you as well and tear your personal life, and therefore credibility, to shreds.

(I'm not saying everyone SHOULD put their full name- even I don't.)

Posted by: CDell | June 15, 2007 12:27 PM

"The fact that you let him see them means that no father anywhere at any time has ever been denied acces to his children, glad you solved that problem."

Yep, and macewan's blanket comments about how the majority of fathers have no rights because they've been taken away from them in court blahblahblah mean the opposite - that all divorced fathers have zero access to their children.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:28 PM

Jen S,
I knew ahead of time that the hospital would use the last name of the mother to id newborns (at the time, it was PA state law). So I registered at the hospital with my husband's last name. No problem with insurance and baby id'd with his name. You could also register at the hospital as Jen yourlastname hislastname to get around insurance, etc. Seeings how hospital stays are short, only close friends and family come by to visit in most cases anyways...people who would know your registration plans.

Posted by: dotted | June 15, 2007 12:36 PM

OK, I'm tired of talking about Joel the weasel. I suggest as a new topic:

Why is food so prominent in our happiest (well, at least our most vivid) memories?

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 12:37 PM

"I'm sure if we held up a magnifying glass to many of the critical people's lives, we would find many flaws as well."

I'm not so naive as to post under my real name on the Net when I have a well publicized messy personal life.

When you screw up in life, it sometimes comes back and bites you in the a$s big time!

The critism would be far less biting if he had somehow acknowledged the EXISTENCE of his two daughters!


Love to my DS and DD!

Posted by: Spike | June 15, 2007 12:38 PM

I mean, I REALLY want a donut right now!

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 12:41 PM

"But why doesn't he mention his two daughters in a piece about FATHERHOOD?"

Dunno. Maybe they were turned against him by his bitter ex-wife"

What's wrong with "My father did live long enough to see my two daughters. They are wonderful girls and I wish we could be closer."

It's the parent's responsiblity to be the adult in the relationship with children. Even if the children are now adults, especially when there has been conflict.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:42 PM

How does a couple do that after infidelity? How often is it sucessful?
Doesn't the wronged party look like a sap when it doesn't work?

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 11:48 AM

With difficulty.
I don't know who would keep records on this.
Yes.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:42 PM

I will call my dad on Sunday only because he is my father in name. My childhood memories include his weekend alcoholic binges that ended up with my helping my mother from getting beaten, his cheating, how he would block my mothers car in so she (and we kids) could not visit anyone including family, and his gambling addiction. That's a heeavy load for a kid!! To this day he doesn't call nor acknowledge his grandkids (he has 5) even though we make time during the holidays to see him.

I haven't given up on him though part of me wonders why do I continue considering his track record?

Posted by: 2xmami | June 15, 2007 12:44 PM

"Doesn't the wronged party look like a sap when it doesn't work?"

The "other women" keep track of EVERYTHING!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:45 PM

http://www.dearpeggy.com/affairs.html

Not that it has answers, exactly.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:47 PM

OK. I just looked at his bio including picture. Can't believe he got two women in bed.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:47 PM

"I haven't given up on him though part of me wonders why do I continue considering his track record?"

2xmami --
Maybe you will have fewer regrets having taken the high road. Sounds like you had a rough time, but you haven't let bitterness win.

Posted by: Arlington Dad | June 15, 2007 12:47 PM

OK, I'm tired of talking about Joel the weasel. I suggest as a new topic:

Why is food so prominent in our happiest (well, at least our most vivid) memories?

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 12:37 PM

Hey fathers, have a Happy Weasel Day.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:47 PM

While marriage certainly involves some tradeoffs, you don't have to give up everything positive about the alternative choice. Unfortunately, you may have seen freedom and commitment as mutually exclusive, thinking that you must lose your freedom if you're married or that you must forego commitment if you're single. In order to find satisfaction with either being single or being married, you need to strive to incorporate more of the benefits of both choices into one.

Both men and women can be better satisfied with marriage if they redefine what it means to be married. You don't automatically have to lose control over your life, lose your sense of identity by merging it with your spouse's, become immersed in your marital roles, or lose touch with your personal goals. You may feel that somehow the pursuit of individual "freedom" takes away from your "commitment" to the marriage.

Quite the contrary. If you fail to bring a degree of balance to your marriage, the day will almost surely come when you will feel resentful at having given up so much, and you'll either leave the marriage or resign yourself to a deadened relationship. By pursuing a relationship that is based on fairness, respect, honesty, and trust, you can satisfy your needs for both independence and belonging--and avoid the endless search for greener pastures.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:48 PM

"Spike and 12:16-
It is 2007. EVERYONE is "on the net." So are we, at this very moment. If you posted with your real name as opposed to a signature name, we could go google you as well and tear your personal life, and therefore credibility, to shreds."

Duh, that's why I don't use my real name!!
Did someone drop you on your head when you were little?

Joel Rose and Leslie could have easliy foreseen what would happen with this piece!

Posted by: Spike | June 15, 2007 12:51 PM

"I will call my dad on Sunday only because he is my father in name."

Translation, he is a sperm donor.

I agree, he's your father. He certainly isn't your dad.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:51 PM

I will call my dad on Sunday only because he is my father in name. My childhood memories include his weekend alcoholic binges that ended up with my helping my mother from getting beaten, his cheating, how he would block my mothers car in so she (and we kids) could not visit anyone including family, and his gambling addiction. That's a heeavy load for a kid!! To this day he doesn't call nor acknowledge his grandkids (he has 5) even though we make time during the holidays to see him.

I haven't given up on him though part of me wonders why do I continue considering his track record?

Posted by: 2xmami | June 15, 2007 12:44 PM

May I suggest you do a google search for "The Drama Triangle" and tell us what you think?

Posted by: anon for this one | June 15, 2007 12:54 PM

2xmami:
I'm so sorry that you had to deal with that as a child. I sometimes wonder what my sons will think of their father in ten years -- he was never violent, but he was menacing, and he was just so awful so many times (there were times they had to guide him to the bathroom, to bring him home from bars -- I'm sure you can imagine). You seem to have risen above it and have chosen to live a healthy life with his place in its proper perspective. I wish you all the best.

Posted by: educmom | June 15, 2007 12:56 PM

Joel Rose and Leslie could have easliy foreseen what would happen with this piece!

Posted by: Spike | June 15, 2007 12:51 PM

This blog would have ended up dad bashing no matter who she chose.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 12:57 PM

"By pursuing a relationship that is based on fairness, respect, honesty, and trust, you can satisfy your needs for both independence and belonging--and avoid the endless search for greener pastures. "

Sage advice. But a little late in the day. The cheatin' has already occurred and I'm left holding the bag. How much is a test for STDs?

Posted by: anon for today | June 15, 2007 12:58 PM

Adding a little weight to pATRICK and MN's side. And my own.

A lot of attention has been focused on the pain of discovering an affair, but very little on the pain of suspecting it. Only about twenty percent of the women whose husbands are having affairs ever find out for sure. That leaves eighty percent of us who supposedly don't know and therefore "can't be hurt." But we do hurt. It becomes a silent, creeping cancer that affects everything we do. It's always there--the fear, the anxiety, the uncertainty, and the enormous drain on our pride.

This pain is certainly not restricted to women, nor even to married couples. I am writing from the perspective of a married woman whose husband had affairs, because that's what I experienced. But the feelings I describe could apply to a man who suspects his wife of having an affair--or to either member of a couple who have a long-term commitment.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:00 PM

Even Nigel and pATRICK?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:03 PM

As for my hubby, his parents divorced when he was 4. He recalls how his father was never there for him. How he sat in the window for hours waiting to get picked up only for 'daddy' not show up nor call. How his father bounced a check for his graduation pictures. How he saw his father choking his mother during an argument. There is no connection whatsoever. He hates how they share the same birthdate (5/5). He especially despises when people tell him since he is the son it is on him to make the first move and to call his father.

He believes his father owes him...not sure if he wants an apology or maybe a simple acknowledgement that he wasn't the best father.

Posted by: 2xmami | June 15, 2007 1:03 PM

"there were times they had to guide him to the bathroom, to bring him home from bars -- I'm sure you can imagine). "

I did the same with my mother. It really, really sucks. I don't trust her, especially with my children.

She always manages to find enablers to manipulate. I rarely think about her.

Posted by: Pat | June 15, 2007 1:03 PM

When my husband began to reestablish the patterns of his life around our family, he did so without explanation or apology. And this is where the talking has ended.

I'm amazed that he could expect that I would easily accept him back without working through the feelings I have verbally. I am quite bitter; I feel that we have come to some different conclusions, he has not given me his own insights and expectations for the future. Mostly he ignores my suggestions for "a talk" or for counseling--and hopes that it will go away.

It is easy to see why he would not look forward to talking with me--because I have mostly negative things to say and I have so much anger to express. And yet, if I do not express these feelings, I will probably carry them with me and they will fester. Also, I want to regain the respect I once felt for him. It is not just the affair itself that troubles me. It is the changes in his personality which disturb me. He is far less responsible, I feel, about all matters that have to do with our home, our family, and our future. He is happiest when he is pursuing his personal interests, and in trying to please people outside of our family. He has become less and less so, but he still is operating very much apart from us. I feel that I am forced to be the stabilizing force; I do not feel that any plans are being formulated together for the happiness of myself or our children. And I value my own life enough, that I can't face a future where my own personal goals are submerged. Also, I am very resentful that I am the one who is left to labor over how to get things right--that I seem to have to carry a burden for finding solutions--when his actions are the ones which upset the apple cart.

I am so tired and depressed by the effects of all of this, that I am not cooperating with my husband on a day to day basis. My interest in pleasing him is at an all time low, and I often think his behavior is very childish. Also, I perceive that when he focuses on our home and the people here, he becomes very dulled and unmotivated, and when he's cheerful and enthusiastic it has to do with outside factors. I feel terribly resentful and unimpressed. I don't feel pain so much anymore, but I do feel that I'm involved in a type of endurance.

For us to truly come together, I think will involve a lot of effort on both parts--a lot of giving and expression on both parts. An attempt to UNDERSTAND and to empathize. So far my husband is giving his time and he is doing very mice things to me, taking me out and buying me things, accounting for himself, helping. But because he will not talk--I have felt that he not meeting the issue, the real person, the feelings...and I have so little patience left that I am not handling things in a very healthy manner either.

I admire the way you have dealt on a human level with your life--and all of the time and effort you've put into it.

Laine

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Dear Laine,

Your letter is one of the most thoughtful and thorough in describing your situation that I have received. There are so many things you describe that are similar to the experiences of so many other women--especially the problem with husbands who won't continue talking. This is an almost universal "need" for most people in your situation and a universal "avoidance" for the person who had an affair.

It's understandable that they don't want to keep talking about your feelings. It's tough to have to face feelings that result from your actions; people would usually prefer to avoid that. And it's also a way for them to continue feeling OK about themselves. To fully face the feelings is to make it more difficult to accept themselves. I'm not trying to analyze your husband specifically, but this is the general motivation behind men's resistance to talking. Also, there's a very strong code among men that you simply "don't talk" about affairs unless absolutely necessary, and that if you do, you say as little as possible. So your husband is acting out the very strong conditioning in the male society when it comes to how to deal with this issue. They "honestly" believe it is better for everyone that the talking not go on and on. But their perception of what's better for everyone is naturally biased by their strong desire to avoid dealing with it.

While I don't think our book has THE answer to this problem, many men who have read it have been able to see more clearly the benefit from continuing to talk. I'm convinced that's the only reason our relationship lasted and the reason for the comfort we have with each other now--and even the "joy" we have in our interactions. There's "staying together" and then there's "staying TOGETHER." I sense that you want the real vitality and energy of a relationship that is together through knowing and dealing with each other's feelings. I want to offer you encouragement in your ongoing struggle to getting beyond the strong feelings that tend to linger from this experience.

Peggy

Posted by: letters to: "Beyond the Affair" | June 15, 2007 1:04 PM

Sage advice. But a little late in the day. The cheatin' has already occurred and I'm left holding the bag. How much is a test for STDs?

Posted by: anon for today | June 15, 2007 12:58 PM

Run to your doctor and get insurance to cover it.

If uninsured, I don't know what to tell you. Try a free clinic? Or Planned Parenthood--they offer services on a sliding scale.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:06 PM

we're online. we can find our own articles. please stop posting entire news articles from other resources.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:06 PM

we're online. we can find our own articles. please stop posting entire news articles from other resources.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 01:06 PM

Tough. Skip the post.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:07 PM

"we're online. we can find our own articles. please stop posting entire news articles from other resources."

Yes, especially the ones that are self promoting a book!

Posted by: Jake | June 15, 2007 1:09 PM

This blog would have ended up dad bashing no matter who she chose.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 12:57 PM

Nice crystal ball you have there, bub.

The blog isn't dad bashing. It's guest columnist bashing, at best, and that's a stretch. The presence of one person, wag, on a mission and possessing a keyboard doesn't constitute "the blog".

and it's always a good day to bash cheaters.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:11 PM

What's wrong with "My father did live long enough to see my two daughters. They are wonderful girls and I wish we could be closer."

Actually, that's a pretty good point. Joel and anyone else could say that and I kinda wish he did.

Thanks

Posted by: Angry at the outrage | June 15, 2007 1:12 PM

"OK. I just looked at his bio including picture. Can't believe he got two women in bed."

Artists (writers, etc.) tend to do well with the ladies...

With this weirdo freak, the mind boggles, and check out that "Do", it reminds me of a cartoon character...

Posted by: Elaine | June 15, 2007 1:14 PM

Did Leslie take off early for the beach or something? Would like to hear her opinion on Joel's past (or at least some nice words about her own dad and husband). Won't be holding my breath.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:15 PM

"Would like to hear her opinion on Joel's past (or at least some nice words about her own dad and husband)."

Would that be Leslie's first or second husband?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:19 PM

The blog isn't dad bashing. It's guest columnist bashing, at best, and that's a stretch. The presence of one person, wag, on a mission and possessing a keyboard doesn't constitute "the blog".

and it's always a good day to bash cheaters.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 01:11 PM

It just would have been nice if the "fathers day" blog, had more than the few nice comments about fathers. This sort of feels to me (right or wrong, I don't know) like: happy fathers day you lying cheating bastards.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 1:20 PM

All this Joel-bashing doesn't distract from the power of this piece of writing. My eyes itched (along with KLB and others) while reading about his joy at being a dad. He isn't the mom, he's the dad. He's happy about being able to share their lives. I find it wonderful. Lovely actually.

Posted by: dotted | June 15, 2007 1:21 PM

dotted

"All this Joel-bashing doesn't distract from the power of this piece of writing. "My eyes itched (along with KLB and others) while reading about his joy at being a dad. He isn't the mom, he's the dad. He's happy about being able to share their lives. I find it wonderful. Lovely actually.""

That was the writer's intent! It's a fradulent piece of manipulative crap!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:25 PM

So far this week, Leslie's heroes include a guy who cheated on his wife and a woman who aborted her child mostly for financial reasons. A lot of people would say that the people you hang out with say a lot about your values . .

Posted by: just wondering | June 15, 2007 1:25 PM

Always feel awkward somewhat on father's day and wonder about all the kids who had very bad fathers. Mine wasn't abusive, but he wasn't very good either, mental illness and other personality problems just prevented him from doing good and caused a lot of problems for us. My mothers dad was an abusive alcoholic.

I helped my partner with a gift for his father, even though the father enabled his alcoholic wife for decades and allowed a lot of damage to be done to my partner.

Part of my relationship with my partner involves a fatherly aspect to it, so I do enjoy wearing my "Daddy's Little Girl" tshirt and taking him out to Denny's as just a little something special to celebrate. I am glad I can enjoy that with him.

I do know some great fathers in my life- my brother in law is one. And great parents should definitely be praised and supported. But so many aren't.

Posted by: Liz D | June 15, 2007 1:25 PM

Also wondering if "alpha wives" are those ultracompetitive women who will do anything to get ahead -- including poaching someone else's husband.

Posted by: just wondering | June 15, 2007 1:26 PM

"All this Joel-bashing doesn't distract from the power of this piece of writing. "My eyes itched (along with KLB and others) while reading about his joy at being a dad. He isn't the mom, he's the dad. He's happy about being able to share their lives. I find it wonderful. Lovely actually.""

That was the writer's intent! It's a fradulent piece of manipulative crap!

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 01:25 PM

Yes, because any man, or woman for that matter, who has ever cheated on their spouse is incapable of loving their children.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 1:29 PM

There are alot of good dads out there. Working, playing with the kids, coaching, leading troop both girl and boy, mowing the yard, saving for their kids. They don't need kudos, they talk the talk and walk the walk every day. But here's one , GOOD JOB DADS!

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 1:30 PM

"That was the writer's intent! It's a fradulent piece of manipulative crap!"

Maybe it is fradulent for this particular writer, or maybe it isn't. But, it's true for a lot of fathers in this world.

Happy Father's Day to all the dads who are living the type of fatherhood portrayed in the blog entry.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:31 PM

"Happy Father's Day to all the dads who are living the type of fatherhood portrayed in the blog entry."

And will acknowledge the existence of ALL their kids!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:33 PM

pATRICK : ditto to my husband and to my father GOOD JOB DADS!

I feel sorry for those people confusing manipulation with expressing emotion. Their cynicism overwhelms everything else in life.

Posted by: dotted | June 15, 2007 1:35 PM

There are alot of good dads out there. Working, playing with the kids, coaching, leading troop both girl and boy, mowing the yard, saving for their kids. They don't need kudos, they talk the talk and walk the walk every day. But here's one , GOOD JOB DADS!

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 01:30 PM

Hey pATRICK, we may not agree on many things, but right back at ya (and all the others that walk the walk and talk the talk).

This blog sure makes it feel like good dads are few and far between.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 1:36 PM

This might be my last Fathers' Day with my dad.

I don't really know what to do, other than visit, bring food, and share some funny stories about work or something to read aloud--the same things I always do, the same things I would have done before I knew he was sick.

I know lots of people deride Fathers' and Mothers' Days as Hallmark holidays, and I've done my share of that too, but it's funny... I do think that knowing it is Fathers' Day makes me think of my dad as a dad again, and that's valuable.

As I've gotten older I've been thinking of him more as an older friend, or a teacher from whose class I've long since graduated. On Fathers' Day I'll remember I am his daughter.

Posted by: worker bee | June 15, 2007 1:36 PM

"This blog sure makes it feel like good dads are few and far between."

I think everyone needs to remember (including me) how difficult being a parent is day in and day out. Having said that, some people really did get a raw deal and had parents that were broken. Which is very sad and hard to deal with I am sure.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 1:40 PM

May I suggest you do a google search for "The Drama Triangle" and tell us what you think

May I suggest you google "how not to be an a$$-hole."

Posted by: anon | June 15, 2007 1:41 PM

Has anyone found a picture of the new wife? I saw his picture and I am with Elaine. Good grief, you would think the ex would have left him.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:47 PM

pATRICK

"I think everyone needs to remember (including me) how difficult being a parent is day in and day out."

When the parents' bad behavior continues long after the kids have reached adulthood, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Posted by: Elaine | June 15, 2007 1:48 PM

My dad was no rocket scientist. But he was a rocket engineer! (EE)

I may have only won one discussion with him in his 80 years but that is OK because he loved my mother with his whole heart until the day he died. This is the example that he gave me and I think about this when I sometimes have a disagreement with my wife.

There are many excellent dads out there some, goods ones also. It seems to be only human nature that we hear about the bad ones.

Posted by: Fred | June 15, 2007 1:48 PM

Well, Well ELAINE feeling a little acidic ourselves aren't we, based on your posts today.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 1:51 PM

Fred

"It seems to be only human nature that we hear about the bad ones."

It's more fun/cathartic to write about the bad guys than the good guys.

Posted by: Jake | June 15, 2007 1:53 PM

pATRICK leave Elaine alone, she probably has her period and is grouchy that she has to clean her toilet.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:53 PM

"pATRICK leave Elaine alone, she probably has her period and is grouchy that she has to clean her toilet. "

And I have those pathetic boobs...

Posted by: Elaine | June 15, 2007 1:56 PM

pATRICK

"I think everyone needs to remember (including me) how difficult being a parent is day in and day out."

When the parents' bad behavior continues long after the kids have reached adulthood, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Posted by: Elaine | June 15, 2007 01:48 PM

What bad behavior are you talking about, is he cheating on alpha wife too?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 1:57 PM

Plans for father's day: my dad died over 20 years ago, so I'll think about him and say a prayer for him.

I'll go coach my middle DD in her softball double-header. Go see a ballgame on Father's Day? Perfect! Go see a ballgame in which my kids are playing on Father's Day? Double-perfect. A great day to play 2? Super-uber-double-perfect!

My FIL will probably take his grandson (my DS) up in his glider. Nothing like a couple hours of soaring to bond a couple of guys.

Then we'll help the kids study for final exams, which are next week.

Oldest DD has to work, but she'll be home by evening and youngest DD will help her Mom and Grandma in the garden.

Then we'll have a cookout and FIL and I will quaff a couple of cold ones.

It pretty much don't get no better than that!

Posted by: Army Brat | June 15, 2007 1:58 PM

What a nice piece and Joel, I'm glad you stuck to the present in it - kept it focused and relevant. It might be nice to get a companion piece sometime about parenting during & after a breakup, particularly one that was so public.

Posted by: Shandra | June 15, 2007 2:01 PM

"some people really did get a raw deal and had parents that were broken."

This could be quote of the day. It certainly made me laugh.

My mom and dad divorced because he cheated. There was a lengthy court battle and, recently, my mom sued him for back alimony payments (13 years after the divorce). But I still think of him as my dad and fondly remember all of the good times. He really was just a flawed guy who made mistakes. In my family, not one of us is perfect (well, I'm pretty close), and we try to forgive. I know he tried to be a good dad, and that really means something to me.

I do, however, hate what he did to my mom. He changed her. After the divorce, she became bitter and unhappy. She has never trusted another man. She said to me on my wedding day something about "when (my husband and I) get divorced." I think her advice would have been much kinder if my dad had not left her.

So he's not the only one who's "broken." Now my mom is, and now we are too. But, like I said, he'll always be my dad. We can't really choose our parents, so I'm choosing to have a relationship with him rather than turning my back on him.

Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 2:02 PM

Shandra

"It might be nice to get a companion piece sometime about parenting during & after a breakup, particularly one that was so public."

That should attract record numbers of posts!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:04 PM

Has anyone found a picture of the new wife? I saw his picture and I am with Elaine. Good grief, you would think the ex would have left him.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 01:47 PM

All I can say is that I'm glad I married to someone whose decision to stay with me, or leave me, won't be made based on how photogenic I am.

To the superficial folks making nasty cracks about Joel's appearance, is there no limit to how low you'll sink to dig at someone?

Posted by: MN | June 15, 2007 2:04 PM

This one is for all the animal lovers out there. My old man is good in to many ways to write about, but here is an example of how kind he is.

My dad coming home was a big deal; he usually worked from sun up until sun down and time spent with him was precious. I could hear his truck coming up the hill and would usually meet him at the door.

I never knew what he was going to be bringing home. Usually, it was a snack cake or some chips, but a few times it was a dog that he had found on the way home from work or in the pit. These dogs were usually hunting dogs that got lost during hunting season. My dad would brush it off and say that he could always use another hunting dog (I only knew him to hunt maybe once a year). The dog would be skinny and hungry and my mom would put up flyers and newspaper ads to find the owner, which hardly ever happened. In a month or two my dad would complain that my mom ruined another good hunting dog by bringing it in the house and letting it sleep in the bed. Those were some damn lucky dogs and I am a damn lucky girl for being raised by such a great father.

worker bee I love your post and I hope you have many more days with your dad.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 2:04 PM

He changed her. After the divorce, she became bitter and unhappy. She has never trusted another man

No, she allowed him to change her. At first, he did this but after the divorce, her life is hers. She can change back if she really want to do so.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:07 PM

Arlington Dad: I'm not bitter. My sister on the other hand is having a harder time with it. She is getting married next year and prefers our stepdad to walk her down the aisle.

Educmom: We have little contact to this day and when we do I initiate it. We did have our good times and those are the memories I talk to my kids about. I pray your boys remember the good things about their father. :-D

anon @ 12:54 - interesting site. Did it help you?

Posted by: 2xmami | June 15, 2007 2:08 PM

"No, she allowed him to change her. At first, he did this but after the divorce, her life is hers. She can change back if she really want to do so. "

True. Happiness is largely a matter of choice.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:10 PM

"He changed her. After the divorce, she became bitter and unhappy. She has never trusted another man"

"No, she allowed him to change her. At first, he did this but after the divorce, her life is hers. She can change back if she really want to do so."

Good advice. I'll be sure to tell her that.

Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 2:12 PM

May I suggest you do a google search for "The Drama Triangle" and tell us what you think

May I suggest you google "how not to be an a$$-hole."

Posted by: anon | June 15, 2007 01:41 PM

"Persecutor" fits, eh?

Posted by: to anon at 1:41 | June 15, 2007 2:13 PM

"No, she allowed him to change her. At first, he did this but after the divorce, her life is hers. She can change back if she really want to do so."

Not everybody bounces back so easily.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 15, 2007 2:14 PM

I have some gripes about my dad but he did one thing I admired tremendously. He was divorced from a crazy, bitter woman who had custody of my half brother and she woould call him(we lived three states away) and tell him how he did her wrong and turned my brother against him(they still don't speak and he is 43 and has kids of his own). He religiously sent the child support check every month til my brother was 18. I asked once how he could do this given how nasty they were to him. He replied, "He is my son, what else would I do?"

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 2:14 PM

Sorry, Maryland Mother, the only prize for winning Fred's Quote of the Day is a ride in the creepy van (vacuuming optional).

But today, Frieda has it as she is picking up a new load of breastpumps. As she put it last night, "It will be packed with pumps!) So there might not even be a FQOTD today.

Posted by: Fred | June 15, 2007 2:15 PM

anon @ 12:54 - interesting site. Did it help you?

Posted by: 2xmami | June 15, 2007 02:08 PM

Yes. I've recommended it to several therapists too, who in turn passed it along to other clients.

Posted by: to 2xmami | June 15, 2007 2:19 PM

To Fatherof4,

That double-bunny-ears trick that others have told you about works well for teaching. Some kids never learn any other method.

Speaking of fathers, my father has been tying his shoes with the double-bunny-ears method for approximately 75 of his 80 years. He knows a lot of other nifty things too.

Posted by: EH | June 15, 2007 2:20 PM

"Persecutor" fits, eh?

Sorry I don't speak idiot.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:22 PM

scarry, that's a great story. I would have loved to live in your house!

A funny story about my dad: One day, my mom accidentally backed into the mailbox with our Jeep. The post snapped in half, and the mailbox itself was crushed. My dad was really mad because he had to fix it before he left for a month-long overseas trip. So he spent a couple hours that night buying the new mailbox, digging the hole, mixing the cement, etc. He missed dinner and came inside sweaty and more than a little angry.
The next morning, we're gathered outside the house to wave bye to Dad as he left for his trip. He started to drive away but realized he forgot something and put the car in reverse. His shoe slipped off the brake and he ran over the mailbox with all of us watching.

Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 2:23 PM

Good advice. I'll be sure to tell her that.


Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 02:12 PM

I wasn't being mean. She can go on being miserable or she can decide to change. It may take a long time but wallowing in self-pity is maybe not the best life to have for her, for you and for any potential or actual grandchildren.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:23 PM

But, like I said, he'll always be my dad. We can't really choose our parents, so I'm choosing to have a relationship with him rather than turning my back on him.

Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 02:02 PM

Meesh, well said.

Posted by: MN | June 15, 2007 2:24 PM

"Persecutor" fits, eh?

Sorry I don't speak idiot.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 02:22 PM


Persecutors also tend to compensate for inner feelings of worthlessness by putting on grandiose airs. Grandiosity inevitably comes from shame. It provides compensation and a cover-up for a deep internal inferiority. Superiority is about swinging hard to the other side of "less than" in order to come across as "better than".

Thanks for playing the game!

Posted by: to 2:22 | June 15, 2007 2:24 PM

Up until the time I was about 16, my father worked nights, too. He worked in a meat=packing plant. Conditions were horrible, but the night shift paid a slightly higher salary than straight day shift. He'd sleep during the day when we were in school, get up about 5:00-ish, eat dinner with us, then go to work. We were out in country, not in the city. He carried a metal lunch box and thermos bottle of coffee (can't find much open for lunch break at midnight) and each morning we'd find the lunchbox on the kitchen table with 3 candy bars in it, one for each kid. When my baby brother got big enough to eat candy bars, too, there were 4 candy bars in the lunch box. My favorite was 'Sky Bar' with four sections, each filled with a different center. Sometimes we got Turkish taffy, froze it a while then shattered it to bite=size bits.

In 1962 the plant closed and workers had an option of either moving to the main plant in Chicago or taking a severance pay and getting another job. Dad chose to take the severance pay and we stayed right where we grew up. He went into another field (blue collar of course) but he loved us, sometimes remembered our birthdays, sometimes not. He was very proud of us when we completed school. He didn't have the chance himself because WWII happened. He died in 1990 of pancreatic cancer. He was a very good father and loving grandfather. He is missed very much.

Posted by: Kudzu | June 15, 2007 2:26 PM

Persecutor/Perpetrator

Perpetrator--"I Get To Feel Safe by Hurting Others and Putting Them Down"

Stuck in a false sense of superiority and defense mechanisms keep people in denial.

Addictive role--feeling the adrenalin rush during anger and rage. Getting high from fighting and witnessing fights. (If you get energized watching the Jerry Springer show, you might check out adrenalin addiction.)

Unconsciously uses anger as an energizer to keep depression at bay.

Needs to be in control and uses verbal or physical force to stay in power.

Deals with threat, new ideas and conflict with anger to stay safe in the role of being the dominant person.

Uses blame, criticisms, attacks and then venting to release stress.

Is highly judgmental of others and angry when others do not do what they say.

Self righteous judgments about others weaknesses subtly allows the weakness to continue.

Strong sense of entitlement--"you owe me" and willing to use verbal or physical force to get it.

Feelings of frustration trigger the right to get angry rather than deal with own uncomfortable feelings.

Unable to feel vulnerable and denies own weaknesses.

Shame based and uses negative behaviors to cover up/deny own problems.

Strong need to be right and not have their authority challenged.

Finds reasons to make others wrong and scapegoats them.

Believes others deserve the abuse and punishment the Perpetrators dishes out.

May have had a parent who modeled aggressive behavior and winning through force.

May have had a parent who spoiled the child setting up feelings of entitlement and getting his way.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:27 PM

scarry - that's the cutest dad story. I think I'll stop reading now on a happy note.

Posted by: MN | June 15, 2007 2:30 PM

Wow....this got angry in a hurry. There are certainly a lot of judgemental people out there who never made a mistake. His article his about his present reality not his past mistakes. He walks his kids from his second wife home every day, not the ones from his previous marriage. Do you even know where they live, how old they are or if his wife was honorable and let him form a relationship with them? He was talking about his current circumstances in a way that makes him realize what a good dad he had. I see no problem with that.

Posted by: HappyDad | June 15, 2007 2:30 PM

"I wasn't being mean. She can go on being miserable or she can decide to change. It may take a long time but wallowing in self-pity is maybe not the best life to have for her, for you and for any potential or actual grandchildren"

I understand and I completely agree. It certainly is not the best life! You know that and I know that, but getting my mom to see that is much harder. But, thankfully, I consider her my best friend, and my dogs don't seem to care how pitiful she is as long as she pets them and shares her popcorn.

Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 2:31 PM

KLB SS MD

"No, she allowed him to change her. At first, he did this but after the divorce, her life is hers. She can change back if she really want to do so."

"Not everybody bounces back so easily."

No, but everyone can make the choice to be happy!


Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:31 PM

Wow....this got angry in a hurry. There are certainly a lot of judgemental people out there who never made a mistake. His article his about his present reality not his past mistakes. He walks his kids from his second wife home every day, not the ones from his previous marriage. Do you even know where they live, how old they are or if his wife was honorable and let him form a relationship with them? He was talking about his current circumstances in a way that makes him realize what a good dad he had. I see no problem with that.

Posted by: HappyDad | June 15, 2007 02:30 PM

How far out on a limb must we stretch in order to find a way to blame Joel's first wife for his revisionist vision of the past? Don't let those contortions hurt you, HappyDad.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:36 PM

Oh my Meesh, I bet you laugh about it now, but then, I bet he was upset. It made me giggle, so sorry if your dad doesn't laugh about it now.

Yes, you would have loved to live in the crazy, animal house.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 2:39 PM

I understand and I completely agree. It certainly is not the best life! You know that and I know that, but getting my mom to see that is much harder. But, thankfully, I consider her my best friend, and my dogs don't seem to care how pitiful she is as long as she pets them and shares her popcorn.

Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 02:31 PM

Maybe show this to her? Show her in black and white how you feel and how other people have reacted to your feelings.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:42 PM

HappyDad

"There are certainly a lot of judgemental people out there who never made a mistake. "

You got me! I never had a 15 month affair while I was married!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:42 PM

HappyDad

"There are certainly a lot of judgemental people out there who never made a mistake. "

You got me! I never had a 15 month affair while I was married!

Touche!

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 2:45 PM

I understand and I completely agree. It certainly is not the best life! You know that and I know that, but getting my mom to see that is much harder. But, thankfully, I consider her my best friend, and my dogs don't seem to care how pitiful she is as long as she pets them and shares her popcorn.

Posted by: Meesh | June 15, 2007 02:31 PM

Maybe show this to her? Show her in black and white how you feel and how other people have reacted to your feelings.

Umm, rather than show her that (which will definitely put her on the defensive and shut down any discussion or possibility of change), why not talk about what has worked for you?

I mean, most of us don't much enjoy facing up to issues anyway (anyone here squint rather than get their eyes checked out?), so there's no point in poking her with a sharp stick. She does it enough, sort of.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:45 PM

"The Drama Triangle"

Sorry, I didn't know this was a real site.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:45 PM

HappyDad

"There are certainly a lot of judgemental people out there who never made a mistake. "

Because all mistakes are of equal gravity, you mean? Like undertipping the waiter last night is the moral equivalent of you cheating on your wife for years. I hope you stay on your planet because, on mine, cheating is an offense worthy of shame and condemnation. That shame and condemnation can be, and should be, freely levied by a society of imperfect people who haven't sunk to the level of a cheater.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:46 PM

I sent my father a Father's Day card. How do you call someone on Father's Day who beat you as a child, but would now let you know that his feelings are hurt that you didn't call him on Father's Day.

I'm glad I live 200 miles away from him.

Posted by: D in MD | June 15, 2007 2:47 PM

Hey, Kudzu

Glad to see you and that you have a good story about a father! Meesh's story about the mailbox was great also.

(BTW, I have on order a bio of Zelda.)

Posted by: Fred | June 15, 2007 2:48 PM

"The Drama Triangle"

Sorry, I didn't know this was a real site.

Best version of The Drama Triangle (it's now a pentagon!).

http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:49 PM

Meesh, You made me laugh out loud. I bet he never lived that down, did he?

Posted by: KLB SS MD | June 15, 2007 2:51 PM

"You got me! I never had a 15 month affair while I was married!"

How does someone do this? Do they think about the pain to the spouse and kids? And all of the other consequences?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:53 PM

How does someone do this? Do they think about the pain to the spouse and kids? And all of the other consequences?

Compartmentalization works wonders in many venues.

But all hell breaks loose if/when a rupture occurs. Not all lovers keep quiet.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:55 PM

http://www.arlindo-correia.com/121202.html

One of these, Fred? Or another book?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 2:57 PM

Diagnosed as schizophrenic, although she did not meet most of the criteria for the illness, Zelda was regularly subjected to insulin shock therapy, which induced memory loss and weight gain, and dosed with a battery of drugs including morphine, belladonna, potassium bromide and horse serum. From the beginning, Zelda perceived her treatment as "a sort of castration". Scott, meanwhile, was not institutionalised for his drinking. Moreover, he insisted that she was the real drunkard, while he needed drink in order to work.

The biggest crisis in their marriage and its tenuous balance of power came in 1932, when Zelda wrote an autobiographical novel, Save Me the Waltz, drawing on the same material with which he was struggling in Tender is the Night. Scott was outraged that Zelda should presume to poach on his territory. He wrote in fury to his publisher Max Perkins, to whom she had sent the manuscript, telling him not to publish.

In May 1933, the Fitzgeralds sat down with Zelda's doctor for a debate on the subject which was transcribed by a stenographer and ran to 114 pages. The transcripts, Cline says, read more like a trial than a negotiation. Scott demanded "unconditional surrender" - he accused Zelda of being an opportunist and called her "a third-rate writer" and a "useless society woman" with an "amazonian and lesbian" personality. "It seems to me that you are making rather a violent attack on a third-rate talent then," Zelda replied. She wanted a divorce and stressed her need to be independent.

In a journal entry outlining his divorce strategy if Zelda insisted on continuing to write fiction, Scott noted: "Attack on all grounds. Play (suppress), novel (delay), pictures (suppress), character (showers), child (detach), schedule (disorient to cause trouble), no typing. Probable result - new breakdown." In the event, Zelda capitulated and Scott allowed the novel to be published with several cuts.

Zelda's letters are saturated with the need to find meaningful work and to support herself. But Scott could not consent, and gradually Zelda developed symptoms of religious mania and suicidal depression.

Posted by: Very sad | June 15, 2007 3:00 PM

"Zelda's letters are saturated with the need to find meaningful work and to support herself. But Scott could not consent, and gradually Zelda developed symptoms of religious mania and suicidal depression. "

This is very, very old news. What is your point?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:02 PM

Because all mistakes are of equal gravity, you mean? Like undertipping the waiter last night is the moral equivalent of you cheating on your wife for years. I hope you stay on your planet because, on mine, cheating is an offense worthy of shame and condemnation. That shame and condemnation can be, and should be, freely levied by a society of imperfect people who haven't sunk to the level of a cheater.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 02:46 PM

Judge not lest ye be judged.

I put the shaming and judgemental people in the same group as the cheaters (immoral), just a little higher on the totem pole.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:02 PM

Posted by: Very sad | June 15, 2007 03:00 PM

This is very, very old news. What is your point?

That I found it very sad. Not everyone is familiar with the Fitzgerald's story, particularly hers.

Posted by: Very sad | June 15, 2007 3:05 PM

"Judge not lest ye be judged"

Thou shall not commit adultery.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:05 PM

One of these, Fred? Or another book?

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 02:57 PM

Not sure which as it is an inter library loan. I know that it is a sad story with a tragic ending but she was a complex, fascinating woman.

Posted by: Fred | June 15, 2007 3:07 PM

"Judge not lest ye be judged"

Thou shall not commit adultery.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:05 PM

So, you're both 1 for 2.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:07 PM

Only in our society would holding people accountable for their actions be deemed "judgemental'. Welcome to the victim mentality wasteland.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 3:11 PM

scarry, thank you!
And I loved your post about your dad.

Posted by: worker bee | June 15, 2007 3:13 PM

I put the shaming and judgemental people in the same group as the cheaters (immoral), just a little higher on the totem pole.

I judge child molesters too. Are they higher or lower on the pole than me?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:14 PM

"Because all mistakes are of equal gravity, you mean? Like undertipping the waiter last night is the moral equivalent of you cheating on your wife for years. I hope you stay on your planet because, on mine, cheating is an offense worthy of shame and condemnation. That shame and condemnation can be, and should be, freely levied by a society of imperfect people who haven't sunk to the level of a cheater."

AMEN! There is nothing wrong with calling someone out who deserves it.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:14 PM

OT--

pATRICK,

I just wanted to tell you that your post yesterday about wanting to teach your daughter that self-esteem doesn't come from your looks or how skinny you are was just fantastic.

You and I don't agree on much, but any dad who has that kind of priority about the values he wants to teach his daughter deserves admiration and respect. You have mine.

Happy Father's Day.

Posted by: pittypat | June 15, 2007 3:15 PM

"AMEN! There is nothing wrong with calling someone out who deserves it."

Especially an author who conveniently forgets two of his children...

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:16 PM

Tears in my eyes. Good on you!

Posted by: boomerette | June 15, 2007 3:17 PM

I judge child molesters too. Are they higher or lower on the pole than me?

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:14 PM

This was mine. There is a guy out here who either killed his children or hid them with someone and won't tell the mother where they are. He is scum, and if I am judgmental because I recognize scum when I see it, then great, I am judgmental.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 3:18 PM

AMEN! There is nothing wrong with calling someone out who deserves it.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:14 PM

At some point in their lives, everyone deserves it, doesn't make it right.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:18 PM

At some point in their lives, everyone deserves it, doesn't make it right.

Sure, we are all walking adulterers, murders and pedophiles.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:20 PM

In response to several responses....

1) No one said undertipping a waiter is equivalent to an extra-marital affair. But an affair is a mistake.

2) How is calling someone names and making assumptions about a situation you don't have all the facts about "holding someone accountable for their actions?" What you are doing is the very definition of judging. I am not saying you don't have the right to do so and that you can't express your thoughts. However, I do feel that person has the right to be defended and not just criticized since none of us know all the facts.

3) Hunderds of thousands of people have had affairs. Clearly this means humans are fallible and make mistakes. Would you rather the author continue to be a bad person and cheat on his new wife and be a bad father? I can't undertsnad why he is getting crap for his past simply because he is going well in his future. Maybe he learned something and is making up for it.

Posted by: HappyDad | June 15, 2007 3:22 PM

"At some point in their lives, everyone deserves it, doesn't make it right."

Why not?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:23 PM

Only in our society would holding people accountable for their actions be deemed "judgemental'. Welcome to the victim mentality wasteland.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 03:11 PM

There is nothing wrong with being judgmental, it is the public shaming that is wrong. If you feel that your place in this world is to be the moral arbiter of right and wrong, you read a different bible than I did.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:25 PM

Time for me to mosey along and pick up Mr. Elaine's Father's Day gift.

Best wishes for a great day.

Posted by: Elaine | June 15, 2007 3:25 PM

"Only in our society would holding people accountable for their actions be deemed "judgemental'. Welcome to the victim mentality wasteland"

You're right, people should be held accountable for their actions. But before we judge someone, we should know the whole story and not just presume which is what people did this morning. Aren't we are just projecting our own "stuff" to the bits and pieces we find from googling his name? Acting like some crazed mob publicly lynching someone's reputation without a trial?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:29 PM

Fred: I think the book I read was by (?) Milford many years ago. I got the impression Zelda was a spoiled rich nutburger who was lucky she had money or else she would have ended up in an insane asylum long before she actually did. (She was the Paris Hilton of her day.) The poor weren't tolerated and given the benefits the rich and privileged had. I don't have much sympathy for wealthy people -- we're from the poor side of the family, as you can see from my post.

Posted by: Kudzu | June 15, 2007 3:30 PM

"Hunderds of thousands of people have had affairs."

But why do married people have affairs? It is one of the easiest Commandments to keep. I don't even have to think about it!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:31 PM

"If you feel that your place in this world is to be the moral arbiter of right and wrong, you read a different bible than I did."


I have to be the moral arbiter of what is right and wrong and so do you. All that evil needs to triumph is for good men (and women) to do nothing. I also have to try and forgive people too.


Thanks PITTYPAT, she's pretty terrific and deserves nothing less.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 3:31 PM

"If you feel that your place in this world is to be the moral arbiter of right and wrong, you read a different bible than I did."

Well, in the bible I own and read everyday, cheating on one's spouse is strictly forbidden. Not saying people can't make mistakes and overcome them, but they should expect to pay a price.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:32 PM

"At some point in their lives, everyone deserves it, doesn't make it right."

Why not?

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:23 PM

I live by the golden rule.

What is the point of it? Most people realize their mistakes and have regrets. To shame and judge them serves no purpose other than to make the shamer feel better about themselves. Those that don't have regrets are not likely to have them because of shaming. So again, what's the point.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:33 PM

but they should expect to pay a price.


Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:32 PM

Where is this, in that bible of yours?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:36 PM

"What is the point of it? Most people realize their mistakes and have regrets. To shame and judge them serves no purpose other than to make the shamer feel better about themselves. Those that don't have regrets are not likely to have them because of shaming. So again, what's the point."

This attitude helped the Nazis. Right, what's the point?

Posted by: Jake | June 15, 2007 3:36 PM

Where is the accountability in publicly blasting someone's reputation without even knowing the full story? When did google become all-knowing?

Posted by: question | June 15, 2007 3:38 PM

"Where is the accountability in publicly blasting someone's reputation without even knowing the full story? When did google become all-knowing?"

When the guy pissed away his honor.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:41 PM

I can't comment on this joel guy. My comments are about cheaters and I do judge them as dishonorable and untrustworthy.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 3:41 PM

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

Good luck teaching your kids any moral standards if you are too spineless to identify adultery and lying as particularly egregious lapses.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:42 PM

"But, like I said, he'll always be my dad. We can't really choose our parents, so I'm choosing to have a relationship with him rather than turning my back on him."

For some of us, moving on without the parent in our lives is not turning your back on them. It's recognizing that there will never be a relationship because the other person isn't interested. Trying to continue a relationship with the person is like banging your head against the wall - it feels so good when you stop.

My father sent support (only a fraction of the order) but didn't give of himself. My brother's 18th birthday went unacknowledged except for the one-third reduction in the support check. Oh, he also spent time in jail. Being a scumbag wasn't restricted to first wife and first set of children.

Some people are just not worth trying to have in your life. Many people don't understand that refusing to see my father is not bitter, just choosing to spend my time with friends and family who I do care about and who care about me.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:43 PM

"I can't comment on this joel guy. My comments are about cheaters and I do judge them as dishonorable and untrustworthy."

A 15 month affair with your book editor while your wife takes care of your two daughters seems to qualify!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:45 PM

Some people are just not worth trying to have in your life. Many people don't understand that refusing to see my father is not bitter, just choosing to spend my time with friends and family who I do care about and who care about me

I would say you are wise....

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 3:46 PM

This attitude helped the Nazis. Right, what's the point?

Posted by: Jake | June 15, 2007 03:36 PM

A man who cheated on his wife, got a divorce and married his mistress is the equivalent of Hitler. Maybe you can write that into the laws of your anti-adultery taliban.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:48 PM

"Some people are just not worth trying to have in your life"

Yes, there are toxic people who are beyond the pale.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:50 PM

To shame and judge them serves no purpose other than to make the shamer feel better about themselves. Those that don't have regrets are not likely to have them because of shaming. So again, what's the point.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:33 PM

Of course it serves a purpose. It establishes us as a people who actually have moral standards -- lines that cannot be crossed without public condemnation -- when we condemn certain behavior. To call an affair a "mistake" or an accident is to remove all blame from the person who couldn't exhibit self-control - even in the face of knowing that her or his conduct would be a betrayal of her spouse and of her own honor and dignity.

I don't care whether the adulterer has regrets or not. I care that we identify behavior that merits shame. Behavior that hurts those closest to us is most deserving of such shame.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:51 PM

"I can't comment on this joel guy. My comments are about cheaters and I do judge them as dishonorable and untrustworthy."

A 15 month affair with your book editor while your wife takes care of your two daughters seems to qualify!"


You are probably right, I just haven't done my own reading on him, that's all I meant.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 3:52 PM

If you're not interested in the Fitzgeralds, skip this post.

To Kudzu, Fred and interested others: FSF plagiarized massive sections of Zelda's diaries and letters to him in his novels. The best-selling bio of Zelda by Nancy Milford, was published ca. 1970.

Posted by: catlady | June 15, 2007 3:53 PM

Judge not lest ye be judged."

Good luck teaching your kids any moral standards if you are too spineless to identify adultery and lying as particularly egregious lapses.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:42 PM

Don't ASSUME that because I am unwilling to publicly condemn someone like you are, that I do not see adultery and lying as moral failures.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:55 PM

A man who cheated on his wife, got a divorce and married his mistress is the equivalent of Hitler.

Without defending adultery, it's NOT the equivalent of genocide against 6 million people. NO WAY, NO HOW.

Posted by: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot | June 15, 2007 3:59 PM

"I can't undertsnad why he is getting crap for his past simply because he is going well in his future"

The problem I have is that he didn't mention the children from his first marriage when writing about fatherhood. What happened in the marriage/divorce is history and every story has two sides. The children from that marriage shouldn't be history and should be acknowledged somehow. Even if he said that the girls don't live with him and his story is about his daily life, at least that would be acknowledgment.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 3:59 PM

Changing subjects... What do dads want for father's day?

I think these things are hallmark holidays but so mine is modest. A day of fun and relative quiet with the wife and kids.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 4:01 PM

If you feel that your place in this world is to be the moral arbiter of right and wrong, you read a different bible than I did.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:25 PM

When people make statements like this, my first thought tends to be, when was the last time you read it, or are you going on memory or cherry-picking your favorite verses.

The bible expressly calls Christians to be moral arbiters of right and wrong in the world. That does not require or encourage the condemnation of individuals, but the condemnation of moral wrongs. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Ephesians 5:11 (NKJV) "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them."

In Rom. 12:9, Paul says, "Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good."

In order to obey these commandments, you have to first identify the unfruitful works of darness and evil.

Matthew 18 provides a road map for believers to rebuke each other one-on-one for the good of the sinning believer, and the local church community.

The Bible is a good deal more complex than many casual readers want to admit. Using it to bash others when you don't believe its directives in the first place is particularly perverse.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:02 PM

Changing subjects... What do dads want for father's day?

I think these things are hallmark holidays but so mine is modest. A day of fun and relative quiet with the wife and kids.

We are going to a baseball game and out to breakfast. I hope all you dads have a nice father's day.

Posted by: scarry | June 15, 2007 4:03 PM

Don't ASSUME that because I am unwilling to publicly condemn someone like you are, that I do not see adultery and lying as moral failures.


Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:55 PM

So you're willing to condemn adultery and lying if you're huddled in the dark in the back of a closet whispering to one of your children. That's a good example of moral confidence. You're really showing your kids about standing up for what's right. Kids: Do the right thing as long as no one is offended, and you don't attach your name to it, and you don't do it in a way that makes any sort of public demonstration. I'm glad Martin Luther King, Jr. wasn't raised by you.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:07 PM

Usually Fridays are "candy day". When I get home from work, my kids will come running to me, even if they are barefoot and there is snow on the ground.

Back when they were still in diapers, each one would immediately ask "Daddy, do you have any candy?"

When they got a little older, I would answer, "What??? All you want from me is candy??? Is that all I'm good for? And you didn't even ask me how my day went."

Now, they run out to meet me, and I get my hugs and kisses as well as the usual question, "Daddy, How was your day today?"

And my 4 year old will jump up and down in anticipation as I tell him how many times I had to reboot my computer, or if I got a chance to have a cup of coffee, who I met on the train...

Its a cheap trick, but it sure makes me look good when company is over or there are neighbors watching on.

Today, I'll ask my son if he tied his shoes, and I'll tell him I know a different way if he wants to know.

Never underestimate the value of a 10 cent Tootsi roll!

Have a Happy Father's Day!

Posted by: Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 4:09 PM

Of course it serves a purpose. It establishes us as a people who actually have moral standards -- lines that cannot be crossed without public condemnation -- when we condemn certain behavior. To call an affair a "mistake" or an accident is to remove all blame from the person who couldn't exhibit self-control - even in the face of knowing that her or his conduct would be a betrayal of her spouse and of her own honor and dignity.

I don't care whether the adulterer has regrets or not. I care that we identify behavior that merits shame. Behavior that hurts those closest to us is most deserving of such shame.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:51 PM

At least someone has the right answer.

So, once we identify these behaviors (i.e. adultery, thank god we identified that before it became common), and a person (Joel) has exhibited one of them, from that point forward anything they do or say is of no value and can be ignored because that person has failed in the past?

There is no atonement for one's sins? What about forgivenes?

My point is, the fact that this man cheated on his first wife was deemed more important here than the 300 or so wonderful words he wrote about his dad and his young sons. I think that was wrong and it should have been none of our business.

At some point, the attitude of identifying immoral behviors becomes more about the shaming than the immorality.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:09 PM

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 04:07 PM

I thought that too but felt too lazy to write it all.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 4:09 PM

I finally had a chance to look at the links everyone was getting their "facts" from on Joel Rose. It is an Amazon description of his ex-wife's book and some reviews. I am sure that her book is completely neutral and unbiased!!!! I am not saying she is lying, but let's remember that her book is her side. It is definitely not right to "shame" joel based on one account. We need all sides before we judge. Until all the facts are in, it is unfair to presume.

And FYI...as people recite biblical verse as morals, please remember that we are a multi-cultural society and our morals come from many places, not just one person's beliefs.

Posted by: HappyDad | June 15, 2007 4:16 PM

At some point, the attitude of identifying immoral behviors becomes more about the shaming than the immorality.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 04:09 PM

I have no idea what this means, but shaming has an important social role to play in discouraging future immorality. To act, though, as if it's unseemly to call out certain behavior as immoral is to make the village without any moral compass at all.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:18 PM

HappyDad, the Bible was only quoted because someone said, you must be reading a different Bible than mine. It was the tome at issue in that conversation.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:20 PM

HappyDad, the Bible was only quoted because someone said, you must be reading a different Bible than mine. It was the tome at issue in that conversation.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:20 PM

"What do dads want for father's day?"

Come on, you don't have to even read our minds for this one, but just in case, I'll spell it out for you:

1. Sex from our wives
2. A nap. (of course)
3. Cheerful environment and family time.
4. An animal on the grill, cow, pig, or chicken. Maybe all 3 if it's a large family get-together.
5. Beer.

Posted by: Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 4:21 PM

Don't ASSUME that because I am unwilling to publicly condemn someone like you are, that I do not see adultery and lying as moral failures.


Posted by: | June 15, 2007 03:55 PM

So you're willing to condemn adultery and lying if you're huddled in the dark in the back of a closet whispering to one of your children. That's a good example of moral confidence. You're really showing your kids about standing up for what's right. Kids: Do the right thing as long as no one is offended, and you don't attach your name to it, and you don't do it in a way that makes any sort of public demonstration. I'm glad Martin Luther King, Jr. wasn't raised by you.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 04:07 PM

No, I will gladly do it in the light of day, when appropriate. Is your child reading here? Mine isn't.

I actually tell my kids to do the right thing regardless of consequences and who it offends. (Again with the assumptions)

The opinion is, that pointing out the past adultery of what appears to be a good father in an effort to prove he is not a good father now is not the right thing to do on a Fathers Day blog. It is the opposite of love the sinner hate the sin.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:24 PM

Oops, that should be: 4. A dead animal on the grill...

Posted by: Father of 4 | June 15, 2007 4:26 PM

It is so typical of the losers on this blog to change the subject away from the topic of fatherhood and this experience represented and make it a personal fingerpointing at the author. I wish this was a blog that was worth the time. Alas, it is not. Joel, I enjoyed your piece and feel horrible that you even had to come on and defend or explain yourself. Leslie, best of luck with this site. it was a good idea that has gone so wrong. It is mean and nasty and so many really relish that aspect now.

Posted by: Former NoVa mom | June 15, 2007 4:30 PM

"The opinion is, that pointing out the past adultery of what appears to be a good father in an effort to prove he is not a good father now is not the right thing to do on a Fathers Day blog."

You know, the day of the year one engages in certain conduct doesn't change its identity. If it's right tomorrow, it's right today. I don't think you'd be any more comfortable with the statement that a cheating dad is not a good role model, even if we made that statement on Arbor Day.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:32 PM

"LOS ANGELES - A day after Barbara Walters shared with the world Paris Hilton's new-found spirituality and charity plans, reports have surfaced that the heiress' father, Rick, may be shopping a post-penitentiary party in Las Vegas.

According to the New York Post, Rick is asking a $50,000 fee for Paris' appearance as well as accommodations and flights for guests to be paid for by the venue. While Rick was turned down by Pure and Hard Rock, The Palms has yet to say yes or no."

Another example of a "bad dad". I assure you there would be no party for my daughter if she went to jail for DUI and dragged our family name through the mud. This is precisley why she is what she is.

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 4:34 PM

6. some sort of sporting event on the television.

Posted by: you forgot...... | June 15, 2007 4:42 PM

Today's blog made me sad. Maybe because my so-called father and I had such a tumultuous non-relationship through the years. I'm pretty sure it affected the choices I made throughout adulthood, including the relationships I've had. I'm trying to turn those harmful habits around, but I'm not at all sure I'm taking the right approach. Time will tell, I suppose.

The good news is I have an amazing stepfather who, while he doesn't help my mom with the housework or offer me advice when I have a problem, has never for a second let me forget that I am HIS daughter--along with my sister and stepsister. He's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but he's the only real father I ever had, and I'm grateful to have him in my life. He's the kind of guy who will travel 400 miles to fix the heater core in my piece of crap Oldsmobile because the garage wanted $1000 to fix it, and it's not even worth that much.

Recently BF asked me how I knew so much about cars, and it hit me--maybe the man wouldn't have gone shopping with me, or talked about relationships, but if I ever needed him, he'd be there, no matter what. Who else would be able to teach me how to build an engine 1957 Chevrolet Impala out of junk parts? If I broke down on the road, my biological father wouldn't even answer the phone, but my stepdad would be on the road with his own truck before I even hung up the phone. Sometimes, love comes in the form of a replacement water pump or new intake manifold gasket.

Posted by: Mona | June 15, 2007 4:48 PM

I love this blog, it always provides a good chuckle. The comments are just great! Everyone just gets soooo riled up about the most ridiculous things. I thought the piece was sweet and thoughtful. I don't care about the guy's relationship with his wife or other daughters. He wasn't writing about them. If it turned out that his relationship with his dad and sons was a fraud THEN I'd be angry.

Anyway, I had the best dad growing up, and he's a wonderful grandfather to my daughter. He constantly sacrificed his time, money, sleep, etc for me and my 2 brothers. It makes me teary just typing it. I feel badly for people who grow up with @$$hole fathers because everyone should have a dad like mine. My DD has a wonderful father, I'd accept nothing less and wouldn't have had a child with him otherwise...so to all of the wonderful fathers, the ones who truly deserve it, HAPPY FATHER'S DAY!!!

Posted by: My Dad's Awesome | June 15, 2007 4:50 PM

The opinion is, that pointing out the past adultery of what appears to be a good father in an effort to prove he is not a good father now is not the right thing to do on a Fathers Day blog."

You know, the day of the year one engages in certain conduct doesn't change its identity. If it's right tomorrow, it's right today. I don't think you'd be any more comfortable with the statement that a cheating dad is not a good role model, even if we made that statement on Arbor Day.

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 04:32 PM

So this guy is forever and only a cheating dad? No forgivness, nothing he has done since then matters?

You do know the MLK was an adulterer, too. I guees all the civil rights stuf should have been ignored.

So, if either you or your wife were not a virgin before you were married, it would be totally appropriate for me to got to your wedding, stand in the back of the chuch and yell "fornicators" for the entire service?

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:52 PM

Sometimes, love comes in the form of a replacement water pump or new intake manifold gasket.

Posted by: Mona | June 15, 2007 04:48 PM

Truer words were never spoken.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:55 PM

Happy Father's Day! Have a nice weekend!

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 4:56 PM

Sometimes, love comes in the form of a replacement water pump or new intake manifold gasket.

Quote of the day!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:58 PM

So, if either you or your wife were not a virgin before you were married, it would be totally appropriate for me to got to your wedding, stand in the back of the chuch and yell "fornicators" for the entire service?

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 04:52 PM

If you consider commenting on a blog to be the equivalent of interrupting someone's wedding, you have a little problem with perspective. No one here is about to drive to Mr. Rose's residence or interrupt dinner at his favorite restaurant. We are commenting in response to a publicly posted in blog in an anonymous forum. I suspect Mr. Rose's skin is plenty thick enough to cope with words. Would you that you were.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 4:58 PM

Happy Father's Day! Have a nice weekend!

Posted by: pATRICK | June 15, 2007 04:56 PM

You too pATRICK.

Posted by: devils advocate | June 15, 2007 4:58 PM

Sometimes, love comes in the form of a replacement water pump or new intake manifold gasket.

Quote of the day!!!!

Posted by: | June 15, 2007 04:58 PM

Fred, I second this emotion.

Mona, That was one of your best ever. Print it out and give it to him for Father's Day and your words will sustain your stepdad through many a long day or night.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | June 15, 2007 5:02 PM

"You do know the MLK was an adulterer, too. I guees all the civil rights stuf should have been ignored."

Yes, I do, and had he written a column about what an awesome dad he was, his adultery would have made him fair game.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 5:05 PM

It is so typical of the losers on this blog to change the subject away from the topic of fatherhood and this experience represented and make it a personal fingerpointing at the author. I wish this was a blog that was worth the time. Alas, it is not. Joel, I enjoyed your piece and feel horrible that you even had to come on and defend or explain yourself. Leslie, best of luck with this site. it was a good idea that has gone so wrong. It is mean and nasty and so many really relish that aspect now.

I love being a loser. Go to another blog beeech.

Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 5:14 PM

Fred's musing on cannoli

Picked up 1/2 dozen cannoli from Angelo Brocato's (In New Orleans) this afternoon. Beautiful crispy sweet pastry shell stuffed with vanilla custard on one end and chocolate custard on the other. Then dusted with confectioner's sugar! A breath come down from heaven to entice us to lead a virtuous life! Ah, the treasures that may await all of us!

Posted by: Fred | June 15, 2007 5:56 PM

"It is so typical of the losers on this blog to change the subject away from the topic of fatherhood and this experience represented and make it a personal fingerpointing at the author. I wish this was a blog that was worth the time. Alas, it is not. Joel, I enjoyed your piece and feel horrible that you even had to come on and defend or explain yourself. Leslie, best of luck with this site."

What was that you had to say about fatherhood? I must have missed it what with all the namecalling and passive-aggressive well-wishing for Leslie.


Posted by: Anonymous | June 15, 2007 5:57 PM

Hey MN,
I was in beautiful Disney World this week (until last night). What did I miss? I tried commenting on topic today, but between these no-with-no-names posting judgemental tripe, it was a difficult day at best.

Best of Father's Days to all Dads out there.

Posted by: dotted | June 15, 2007 6:23 PM

dotted, I'll bet you had a blast! I have a colleague whose kids are in their late teens and it remains their families' favorite vacation destination.

Here, it was a good week to miss. Thanks for the shout out - I was hoping all was okay in your world.

Posted by: MN | June 15, 2007 6:32 PM

Fred's Quote of the Day is awarded to the M & M girls! Mona and Meesh.

Mona for "Sometimes, love comes in the form of a replacement water pump or new intake manifold gasket."

Meesh for her hilarious mail box story which only proves that dads can be dodo's some times but still lovable!

(back story to Mona's award. Fred had a cell phone conversation with older daughter which resulted in her repair of a burst radiator hose on Wednesday. Car repair from 400 miles away and Fred did not even have to turn a wrench! Daughter had it fixed before her boyfriend arrived to help out!)

Posted by: Fred | June 15, 2007 6:33 PM

MN,
woo hoo, go UNC at Omaha!

Fred,
can you fix my dang 'engine light on'??? I know you can. stupid light.

Posted by: dotted | June 15, 2007 10:06 PM

Hey - I'm off to disney next week for work. I'm SO excited. Third trip to Orlando this year.

I'm so in love with Disney.

Posted by: atlmom | June 15, 2007 11:51 PM

atlmom, I clearly need a new job:>)

Have fun!

Posted by: MN | June 16, 2007 10:33 AM

Yacht and Beach Club is my favorite, especially when it is on the company dime!

Even without kids in tow!

Posted by: dotted | June 16, 2007 10:37 AM

Dotted: we're staying at the coronado and it seems fun. It seemed like too much of a hassle to take the kids - so I get some 'free' time to myself.
Yippee! We actually have an afternoon off, so maybe animal kingdom...?

Posted by: atlmom | June 16, 2007 12:29 PM

The comments to this entry are closed.

 
 

© 2007 The Washington Post Company