Maybe we as grown ups need to set better examples. I began to talk to my almost 14 year old about driving skills this year. I noticed that she carefully watches me driving, so I try to set a good example. Driving around here offers many examples of "what not to do": she is quick to point out cars with too many people, people talking on their cells, and drivers reading the paper or putting on makeup--all grown ups. She's been in cars with other dads playing with their IPods and driving with their knees. Teens are just emulating what they see in the adult world.

I honestly think the driving age should be 17 not 16 in most states. But I think it is parents that insist on younger drivers because they don't want to carpool the kids around any more. Most suburban parents are scared but thrilled when they get a teen driver in the house. Not only can they stop driving the teenager around but all of sudden the teenager is responsible for dropping off and picking up the younger siblings as well. Until we get awesome public transportation or walkable communities, we will still have young drivers. I was at the bank a few months ago and two young girls were outside crying. The one girl smashed her parent's BMW into the bank wall. I tried to calm her down while they called their parents and wait till the parents showed up. The young girl (16) asked me if I thought the bank would notice. I said, "yes, I think they will notice a hole in the wall!" The other girl with her said she had already lost her license because of too many speeding tickets. Of course, there are some good teenage drivers but accross the board, I think 16 is too young.

I agree with foamgnome on raising the age for a driver's license. Also, there are too many distractions today -- bloody cell phones, text messaging, iPods. When I drove, I had a pathetic AM radio in my little POS car and maybe a few friends. There's too much focus on giving kids adult toys, right down to the car, for crying out loud. Why some parents think a teenager "deserves" a new car I'll never know.

Kids used to drive drunk and high when I was growing up, too, and when my parents were growing up. That hasn't changed, but the number of cars on the road has, and that makes it MUCH more risky. I also think a parent should talk to their child about the hazards of drunk driving. Use local examples to scare them -- God knows there are always a few. When I was a freshman, four sophomore boys were in a drunk driving accident. All of them were wasted, and three died. The fourth was a vegetable living in a long-term care facility by the end of the year. Awful, but it did bring the point home.

In Maryland, teens need to be 16 years 3 months to get a license, my son got his in September. Do I worry about him? Sure. He has a friend that will be 18 next year, and his parents won't let him get his license until then. He will be in college then. So, for now, yes, he is probably more safe than my son. But when he starts driving, he will no longer be under his parents' control and I think that is a real problem.

I want my son to learn to drive, and get experience driving, when I am firmly in control. The key is that I am in control. The problems seem to arise when parents turn over the keys to their teens and close their eyes to how they are driving. And I don't know what we can do about this, but I have often thought that it might make a big difference if we started punishing parents for the driving mistakes their children make. Sure, that's not fair, but it might make people wake up.

All that said, I really like what the first poster said. If all of the parents drove correctly, didn't talk on cell phones while driving, didn't speed, didn't tailgate, and showed compassion for other people on the road, our children might be much better drivers.

I agree that teens are simply emulating the behavior they see around them.

jj, you're saying "I want my son to learn to drive, and get experience driving, when I am firmly in control. The key is that I am in control."

Don't you think that any sense of control you have as a parent is an illusion? I certainly have felt that way as a parent, and prior to that, as a stepparent. I'm not saying toss him the keys and hope for the best, but something between that and being firmly in control, perhaps?

I didn't let my daughter get her license until she was seventeen. I think sixteen is too young to drive. The only thing is most of her friends got their licenses when they were sixteen so she was driving with them which was probably worse than her driving herself.

WorkingMomX - I don't necessarily think my sense of control is an illusion, but I do see where you are coming from. I have LOTS of rules for my son. Like him calling me at certain times, him NEVER turning his phone off so I can call him, strict curfews, watching the gas tank, restrictions on who he is allowed to have in the car (in Maryland someone under 18 can't have other teens in the car, unless they are 18, so he is only allowed to drive his older friends), etc. I enforce these rules too, for example, if he's late, he misses out on something.

But I choose to trust him until he proves I shouldn't (the exact opposite of how the parents of his friend who can't drive think). He's a good kid, he has great friends that I know well, and I ride with him a lot and seems to have good driving habits.

I also have a carrot that worked with my older son. I pay for their insurance until they receive a ticket or get into an accident. If they have clean driving records when they are 21, I pay them a fairly large amount of money. And, considering that we don't have a lot of money, that means a lot to my kids. My 21 year old got a nice chunk of change last year on his birthday because of this. Hopefully it will work for his younger brother. (And I'm sure I'll get some flack for bribing my kids...)

But, even so, yes, I do cross my fingers a lot and say a lot of prayers, most parents of teenagers do...

As I drove into the work in the rain this morning, I couldn't even count the number of cars driving without headlights on, people yakking on cell phones, failing to use turn signals, etc.

You could raise the age limit for a license to 50. It still wouldn't help the abysmal driving 'skills' of the masses.

I agree-kids learn from what they see out there everyday. Teach them that they're not 'multitasking.' They're DRIVING.

jj, that is a great idea about paying them for a clean driving record. I love it. I say bribe away. Any parent who claims they don't bribe their children is probably not telling the truth.

Yesterday -at a traffic light a car, sitting at the light opposite to me. I was proceeding straight and a car was turning left and nearly rammed right into me. As I looked to see who would try to drive infront of a car goign 30 - I saw a very young woman, probably about 18, eating a yogurt with a spoon, whilst (I presume) driving with her knees.
I am scared how many drivers are out there that drive like this. I averted the crash because I was paying attention. But I feel like I have to compensate for such distracted driving by expecting the worst of such young drivers.
Definitely up the driving age, and make the tests more in line with European standards. Just look at the statistics between their crash rates of young drivers and ours.

What's the difference between 16 and 17? I don't get that. One year makes for better driving?

I had driver's ed IN school spring of my junior year (it was a classroom and road class that counted toward my GPA, too). One of the (maybe even THE) only good parts to being on the older end of the class. I didn't like driving (the teacher was awful and put the fear in me and others), so I didn't actually get my license until the following fall about a month before I turned 18. And my first car was 10 years old (and still safe). I also paid for my own insurance, gas, maintenence, etc.

At almost 34, I still have NO tickets and only one accident 11 years ago (and it went to court and I still made it out in the clear). Ironically enough, my father never wears his seatbelt unless he's in the car with me (or my parents are driving down to visit me) and he's NEVER gotten a ticket. That blows my mind -- my parents live on Long Island, it's not like there aren't cops around.

I just believe teens are a little more mature at 17 than 16.

G, what are the European driving tests like?

I agree that there is a fairly large maturity difference for most kids between 16 and 17. I definitely think the age should be raised.

Plus its easier at 17 to get a job than 16. I know I can't afford the car insurance.

I am so fearful of when our daughter and her peers are old enough to drive. That's at least 14 years away, but I've been dreading the day since she was born. I am in my mid-twenties and grew up in the Howard County school system. I have had 5 high school friends die in car accidents since then. Even if your child is a responsible driver, they are still at the mercy of other people's poor driving. Also, cars leave little room for error and no one is perfect.

I'm a little astounded by some of these accidents that happen well after midnight. The Montgomery County accident - oldest person in the car was 17. The accident occured at 2am. If you are going to give a teen access to a car, you should be partly accountable for making sure they follow the rule, e.g. not driving after midnight on a provisional license.

Some times we are at the mercy of other parents. My daughter may spend the night at a friends house and they may decide to go out and the parents let them.

Just by way of comparison,I passed my driver's test in Europe (Germany) originally. First of all, you have to be 18 to be driving there (I will never understand why you can drive here at 16, yet must be 18 to vote and 21 to drink - consistency??), and the tests, both the theoretical part and the driving test were gruelling compared to what you have to do here (I had to re-take a written test here, which I thought was pretty laughable). You had to take a minimum number of lessons with a professional driving instructor, including X number of lessons at night, X number on a highway, X number in dense traffic, X number in the rain, etc.

Then, you get your license "on probation". I think it's two years (could be one, I can't remember). Any serious infraction (there's a list), and they take your license away during that first year, and you have to re-take a test.

In general, traffic-rule-enforcement in Germany is much stricter, too. People wouldn't dream of not using their turn signals, for example. The stuff people get away with here is mind-boggling to me. Don't the police WANT to pay attention, or do they just not care?

On the subject of parental control - no, I guess you can't have complete control at all times, but you do have to wonder about those teens being drunk in a car at two am on a school night. I mean, you should have some control over where your underage kid is in the middle of the night. In those cases, I think the driving disasters are extensions and consequences of other undesirable behaviors and life styles.

re European testing: actually, road death rates are higher in Europe than in North America. Culture, traffic density, speed limits, road quality, terrain (e.g. winding mountain passes) and a lot of other things are more important than the substance of the road test. You can be terrifically technically skilled but if you make one mistake on the Autobahn at 100 mph there's no do-over. A road test can't assess your judgment, which is the most important thing for new drivers. Let's just keep teaching them to avoid distraction, competitiveness and overconfidence.

Jenni - you are so right about the midnight thing. In the three cases Stacey mentions, one boy was 17 but didn't have a license. One was 16 and had three younger passengers. The third was a 17 year old girl. She was the only one that wasn't driving illegally. It doesn't matter what laws we pass, if parents allow their kids to break them.

I got my learner's permit when I was 15 and 9 months and got my license almost exactly at 16. But my parents didn't let me borrow the car almost at all until I was well into 17.

Why should the driving age be adjusted? All of the parents of driving teens I know expected to buy their kids a $1000 car and found that the cheapest safe car cost about $7000 in the DC area. Therefore Jr needed an extra 24 months to save up that kind of money. It's not like we could save our $20 from mowing neighbors lawns and pay $1500 for a car like I did. Now my parents still pay $20 for a kid to mow their lawn (20 years later that hasn't changed) and the cars cost three times as much.

So I fail to see the issue, really. Make the rule that your kids can't ride with other kids. Make the rule that your kid can't drive with the cell phone unless it's in the trunk. If the kid won't follow those rules then that's, in many ways, a whole different issue.

I will never understand why you can drive here at 16, yet must be 18 to vote and 21 to drink - consistency??

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You forgot military service at 18 and can't buy cigarettes at a certain age either (16? 18?) and you can legally drop out of school at 16 to be emancipated from your parents.

Explain why they should all be the same age?

StickyNote - interesting about how it works in Europe. I just went through this with my son in Maryland and many of their requirements are the same as what you listed, the probation, the "practice" time. The practice time part can be faked though, the parents just fill out a log showing when and in what conditions the teen drove. How do they enforce this in Europe?

What's the difference between 16 and 17? -- well it depends on the kid.

I made a huge developmental leap at age 17 in my ability to consider the future in my immediate choices. Until then, I really lived in the moment. I think this change made me a better driver. But it also takes EXPERIENCE behind the wheel. I was a better driver at 17 than I would have been at 16 but I still was not a good one. To be safe you need to juggle a lot of visual information, and make educated predictions about what other vehicles around you are going to do. I support laws that place some limits on teen drivers until they gain some experience/skill behind the wheel.

I pass the intersection where two were killed in a van on the way to school about 2 weeks ago in Calvert County. There is a blinking yellow caution light at that intersection. Sight distance in each direction is very good. The van was driven by a 17-year-old with her younger brother (who also died) and two friends. The police determined she failed to yield right of way to the truck that T-boned her. I am a very experienced driver and I would not want to drive a van with 3 other passengers on Route 4 during rush hour. This driver was only 17, obviously less than a year driving experience. Could be she was distracted by 1) a cell phone, 2) a giggly air-head conversation with her girlfriends, 3) late for school and rushing to cross the intersection, 4) her favorite song on the radio or 5) thought she was immortal because she was --YEAH -- 17!

One more thing -- this intersection is SOUTH of where the students live and the high school where they were headed. They had no reason to be at that point on the road to begin with. I feel more for the man driving the truck that hit her -- it was absolutely not his fault.

My sympathies go to the family that lost two kids in that accident, but it's irresponsible to let a very new driver in the driver's seat of a van loaded with passengers. Either raise the driving age to 18 or put a restriction on passengers in the vehicle with a new driver. Hasn't anybody ever heard of school buses?

These 17 year old seniors don't want to ride the school bus because they think they are now grown.

Riding a school bus has nothing to do with being 'grown up.' It's free. It's safe (when was the last time you heard of a fatal school bus accident?) They're on time. We need school buses out here because it's way too far to walk to school when you live 7-10 miles away. My mother didn't drive and the only way we could get to and from school was by bus back in the olden days.

"The practice time part can be faked though, the parents just fill out a log showing when and in what conditions the teen drove. How do they enforce this in Europe?"

Practice time with parents does not count. You have to take a set number of lessons through a "driving school".

Granted, this makes it quite expensive, but it does ensure each new driver has a certain amount of driving under his belt before hitting the road alone.

I don't think enough parents make their kids drive an adequate amount before getting the license. I know mine didn't. It made my parents nervous to see me driving, so they would never give me the keys when they were in the car. Once I got my licence (which doesn't take that much experience) and bought a car, I was pretty much on my own. My first accident happened my first time driving in DC. I learned how to drive in the suburbs, where the lights are over the intersection. In DC, the lights were on posts on the side, and I just didn't see it. Completely my fault, but I think if I had plenty of opportunity (with an experienced driver in the car) to drive in the city, on the highway, at night, in the rain, etc., I would have been a better driver earlier. Luckily I am pretty cautious by nature, so that was my only accident.

Actually I was surprised to see someone suggest the school bus as an alternative. On my bus route there was a crazy kid with behavioral problems who beat me up many times in jr high and high school, but he'd only get "suspended" from riding the bus for a week or two and then was back. My parents drove me from that point on. In high school they canceled our bus route and asked us to walk the mile to school, so I caught rides in inclement weather. As soon as I could shorten that 15 minute walk to a 5 minute car trip I did.

I would not recommend the school buses for safety, they were really pretty violent.

To clarify, I mean the experience should happen while on the provisional license.

practice time - my mistake on this one. Maryland does also require the school time as well. While I wouldn't doubt the restrictions are greater in Europe, my point is that over here people are addressing this too. In the five years between my two sons getting their licenses, everything changed. They can't get learners permits as early, have to hold them longer, the driving school requirements are greater, the practice time with parents is greater, they can't get their license as early, the provisional (probation) period is longer and the penalties during probation are harsher. Sure, more could be done and the license age could be raised even higher, but I doubt that would make much of a difference, given that most of these kids were not driving legally anyway.

The Maryland rule about no passengers under 18 (unless family - altho I fail to see how that's different) for the first several months is a good one, but the cops have plenty to do as it is without having to count kids in cars. So it really is up to the parents to enforce, with stringent consequences.

My daughter is 14 and will probably be learing to drive in less than two years. It scares me silly - not because I don't trust her, but for all the other reasons people have named. One thing is certain, she will NOT be driving to school. We live less than 1 1/2 miles from her school, and most of the time she can walk home after clubs, etc.

She seems to be under the misconception that I will be giving her my '99 Toyota when she gets her license... not likely, even if I do have a new car by then. (It doesn't help that our good friends, not spoiling parents by any means, have just gotten a new car, and are "holding" their old one for their son who is 15 and does not yet have his permit.)

The let kids start driving at 16 so they can drive themselves to and from their jobs but most of them can't get a job at 16 so what's the point.

why can't most kids get jobs at 16? Most of the ones I know have jobs at that age.

"I would not recommend the school buses for safety, they were really pretty violent."

DCer, surely that varies not only among districts and schools, but from one bus to another. That does sound like a terrible experience, but I don't think sweeping generalizations can be drawn from it. I rode the bus for four years, and I don't remember a single violent (or even intimidating) incident. There are lots of experiences out there, and neither mine nor yours is inherently typical.

Also, economist, do you have a source on the comparative rate of driving-related deaths? That doesn't match anything I've seen, and I'd like to know more.

DCer, the school buses out in the boondocks are a lot safer than in the city. I've been on Metro buses where people were pickpocketed by kids who hustle you when you get off at the back door. Our County school buses are pretty safe and you can be suspended permanently for misbehaving.

Foamgnome: you hit it on the head with parents wanting kids to drive to relieve *their* burden. That's one reason we will never live in the suburbs. not that atlanta is a mecca of mass transit (ugh!) but we live in a walkable neighborhood, where you can get a bus - not too far from the train, etc.

I think that part of the problem is as you said: parents can't WAIT for their kids to get licenses so that they will not have to do so much - they buy them the biggest cars cause they know the kids aren't safe, so they feel better, which is worse, etc.

But hey, what do I know.

and i grew up in the suburbs, but could walk most places in my hometown, and also walk to the train and take it to NYC - the world was my oyster. That freedom was awesome, and I don't want my kids to be stuck at home cause they can't get anywhere except by car but that they don't have one - I want them to be able to explore and meet friends, etc, by themselves.

Check out Wikipedia. Stats distinguish between motorway and non-motorway deaths which complicates comparison but you can look at general trends on a per-kilometre-driven basis. (Americans drive a lot farther than Europeans on average - bigger spaces adn less public transport - so total death rates aren't a reliable proxy for safe driving. Most people hear "Europe" and think of "Germany", but driving conditions are hugely variable across Europe. Another thought about the German system for people wading through these issues - the expense of official driving lessons tends to drive out the very young except in very affluent families, so the overall effect comes as much from keeping 16-17-year-olds off the road as it does from superior training.

In Maryland, the parent who signs permission for the child to be licensed can revoke that permission. My daughter knew that we could and would have her license pulled if we had any reason to believe that she was breaking the rules of the provisional license OR if we suspected that she was not driving safely.

One of the biggest reasons that parents get cars for their children is after-school sports and other activities. There is no public transportation to or from the school, and there is no way home if the school bus is not taken. Even I think that 5 miles is a little too much to walk home after sports practice with a full backpack and no sidewalks. I wish that there were after-school activitiy buses to transport the children. For example, the regular bus leaves school at 2:30 but the activity bus leaves school at 5:00. I know that many things would have to be worked out, such as cost, but no one even considers this as an option - people would rather just let the kids drive.

"Another thought about the German system for people wading through these issues - the expense of official driving lessons tends to drive out the very young except in very affluent families, so the overall effect comes as much from keeping 16-17-year-olds off the road as it does from superior training."

FYI, 16- and 17-year-olds in Germany are "kept off the road" by law - you can only drive once you're 18.

And, while driving lessons do carry a significant cost over there, rest assured that you don't have to be "very affluent" to afford them and that an overwhelming number of young people gets their license by the time they're 18.

In California, 16 year olds cannot drive with anyone under, I think its 25?, in the car. So there is no shuttling your friends around, or anyone else for that matter. Beyond that, it's up to the parents to instill good driving behaviors.

I stand corrected. However, your point underscores the fact that keeping 16 and 17 year olds off the road is one of the most effective safety measures around. That may not be much consolation to the parents of the DC area - it's easier to resist pressure for earlier licensing in countries where teenagers can travel independently by train, bus streetcar, etc.

"it's easier to resist pressure for earlier licensing in countries where teenagers can travel independently by train, bus streetcar, etc. "

Just anecdotally, I grew up on the middle of nowhere in rural Germany - no way to travel independently by anything motorized anywhere during the day (except to school by bus). Instead, it was vast distances covered by bike, in all kinds of weather... Not that that's applicable to today's DC . Then again, probably not every teen "needs" a car to get around during the day here either.

I don't think we should change the driving age (though I think lowering the voting and drinking age is a good idea) but I do think we should have harsher rules on when they can drive and how many passengers they can be allowed to have until they are 18.

""I want my son to learn to drive, and get experience driving, when I am firmly in control. The key is that I am in control."

Unfortunately, you are only really "in control" if you are in the car with your kids every time they are driving.

I didn't get my license until 18, and I think it's a good thing I waited. I was not an immature kid, but I don't think I had the nerves for it at 16. Part of driving is being able to handle very sudden, unexpected situations extremely fast, and I don't think a lot of 16 year olds have that capability (which is why so many of them seem to drive off the side of the road).

I have to chime in one more time on this - the problem I have with making teens wait until they are 18 (or some age) to drive is that in many cases they are no longer living at home with their parents. While maturity is important in driving, so is experience. Where will these kids get the experience? I personally would rather my kids get that experience when I am involved. And yes, I understand that I don't know everything my kid does. But I know a lot, and do everything I can to oversee him. That is the key. As I said before, hold the parents responsible for how a kid drives when they are under a certain age. That will help much more than an outright ban.

After all, I believe a parent's primary responsibility is to make sure a child is prepared for adulthood. We make sure they are educated, we make sure they can handle money, we make sure they are responsible citizens. I think we also need to make sure they are responsible drivers, and to do that we need to let them drive.

I have to chime in one more time on this - the problem I have with making teens wait until they are 18 (or some age) to drive is that in many cases they are no longer living at home with their parents.
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Indeed I started college at 17 and my girlfriend who was also 17 and owned a stick shift patiently taught me how to drive a stick shift on the campus parking lot. I rarely drove while in college, but I couldn't imagine NOT going back and forth to school on weekends when I wanted to in college. While I disagreed that the driving age needed to be raised, now I REALLY wonder how I was supposed to take driver's ed in college.

Whole bunch of questions, whole bunch of answers:

Should the age limit for getting a license be raised? No, it really wouldn't have an impact. The problem is that the young drivers are inexperienced. You're always going to have that first year or two where you haven't experienced all the things that are going to happen to you - having to slam on the brakes because some idiot runs a stop sign or because a deer runs out in front of you; making sure you don't get distracted despite all the stuff going on on in the car around you; etc. You learn in statistics classes that often it's the INTERACTION of events that causes problems. You have a distracted driver (cell phone, eating, reading the newspaper, putting on makeup, checking e-mail, etc. - the kinds of things you see on the Beltway, from adults, every day). You have an inexperienced driver - in the first year or two, regardless of age. And you have a road issue - the need to swerve, or stop, or accelerate through an incident, or... Any of the three by itself is bad enough. It's when you COMBINE them that the real problems occur.

The posters re: Maryland's graduated licensing system are correct. See http://www.marylandmva.com/DriverServ/ROOKIEDRIVER/bgeneralprovisional.htm for the full details. The relevant paragraph:

Provisional license holders under the age of 18, during the first 5 months (151 days) of the provisional period, are not allowed to have passengers under the age of 18, unless accompanied by a qualified supervising driver or the passengers are direct family members. Direct family members can be a spouse, daughter, son, stepdaughter, stepson, sister, brother, stepsister, or stepbrother of the provisional license holder, or a relative of the license holder who lives at the same address.

Why the distinction? Because experience has shown, many times over, that driving with friends is much more distracting than driving with family. Little brother or sister may fight over what radio station to play, but it's not like arguing with six guys about the football game, when three of those guys are yelling at you to hurry up and get through the yellow light and the others want you to stop so you can drag race the guy in the next lane when the light turns green.

As far as parents signing a false log: they can do that, but legally you're committing perjury if you do. You can lose your own license, etc. etc. The state figures you're an adult, you can lie about a whole bunch of things. Trust (parents sign log) but verify (driving with licensed instructor also required).

The big thing to me is that so many of the kids hurt/killed are driving illegally - they're out after curfew (see the provisional license page I linked to - you can't drive between midnight and 5 am without a supervising adult); they're driving passengers they shouldn't have; or they don't even have a license.

when i was learning to drive my parents refused to get in the car with me. so my uncle did the teaching. every sat and sun i would chauffeur him around for his weekend errands. we did highway driving, city driving, suburbs etc. he taught how to drive for long distances, what to pay attention to and the hardest thing he ever did was make me drive backwards around a bank drive through (this was on a sunday) in a huge empty parking lot. that was amazing, i could parallel park like a champ after that. the key to all of this was practice practice practice. i live in buffalo and turned 16 in august, so when winter hit, even after i got my license, he continued to take me out. he would show up on the worst weather weekends and tell me to come on we gotta practice. I still have those winter driving skills which to this day make cautious and safe in bad weather (especially around washingonians LOL)