I just looked at the UMD website and for a year, in-state it is $17,612 (including room and board but not including books and supplies). Where are there state schools that are only $6,000 a year? I would seriously considering moving now to be in that state when my elementary school children are ready for college.

We're doing the MD prepaid tuition plan. Hopefully our kids (5 and 10) will get into at least one MD public university. The deal is if they want to go to a private college or one outside MD, they will have to make up the difference in tuition through loans or grants or jobs.

We're saving way more for retirement through the 401/403 plans.

UGA, U of Alabama, UNC, um, pretty much all southern state schools are pretty darn cheap. And in Georgia, there's the Hope scholarship, so if you maintain a B average, tuition is completely paid for.
Which was interesting when I realized this (when I went to grad school). - I went out of state to Penn State (which was and is a fortune) - and IN STATE in New York was MORE than OUT OF STATE to some southern state schools.

In any event, we are clearly putting away more for retirement than for our kid's education. We are putting some away for the kids, but we will see what happens - we only get the tax advantages of contributing to the retirement stuff each year...

We will see what happens when the kids go to school. We are putting away some money - but probably not enough (I always laugh at those guides that tell you you need to put away $400 per month NOW - like, who has *that* laying around?).

The flip side is the whole thing that people think they are entitled to retire at a certain age...65 was chosen years ago - when life expectancy was 65. So while some should accumulate enough by that point to retire, most people probably won't. Since many people will have 30 or more years in retirement at that point, there's nothing wrong with working more.

"I always laugh at those guides that tell you you need to put away $400 per month NOW - like, who has *that* laying around?"

Actually, I asked my friend who works for the Ohio Tuition Trust Authority and he said that the actual figure is about $600 PER KID. Yowza. I manage $200 per kid per month, and every month as the checking account dwindles to double digits just before payday, I wonder if I've made the right decision.

I also just spoke to a buddy who's got a rising HS senior. He bought into the prepaid tuition program in Virginia -- paid $11,000 for *all four years* of school. The catch-22, however, is that a solid B student with solid AP honors and 85th percentile on college entrance boards from Northern Virginis might be on the cusp of getting into James Madison or GMU -- it's not good enough to make the cut into a top-tier VA university if you're a kid from NoVa with those scores... that shocked me. He could go private or another state school in another state, but then the value of those prepaid tuition dollars falls.

"solid B student with solid AP honors and 85th percentile on college entrance boards from Northern Virginis might not ... make the cut into a top-tier VA university"

Posted by: Dad with kids from A-Z | August 19, 2008 7:27 AM

Um.

The competition to get into the state schools is fierce now! The schools are turning down very qualified in-state applicants and accepting reasonably qualified out-of-state applicants because they can get a lot more money out of them with the higher out of state tuition rates.

I do believe in kids helping to pay for school themselves but not at the expense of their education. I was fortunate that my parents were able to pay for mine 20+ years ago and I do appreciate it. But I think my husband who paid for his entire education himself appreciates it far more.

"Plus, if kids pay some of their own way through college, they value it more"

While I appreciate what they are trying to say, that is a cheap cop-out. I came from a middle class family that could have easily put away money for me to go to college, yet 'to make me appreciate it' they simply chose to have me pay the vast majority of the cost. I got some great scholarships, but am still sitting on tens of thousands of dollars of loans that drastically affect my life now and had to work 2 jobs on top of classes through college to help pay for my educational expenses. Landlords don't want to take me on as a renter because of the debt, and I scrape buy with a single digit balance in my checkbook to keep them paid up. Do I appreciate my college education? Sometimes, but mostly I regret it.

Parents and students should work out a plan that doesn’t sacrifice the parent’s retirement, but also allows the student to focus on their education and first job, rather then leaving them panicking about money.

"Do I appreciate my college education? Sometimes, but mostly I regret it."

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

My parents paid for part of my first semester of undergrad, then I was on my own. Trust me, I didn't value my education any more for having to fit it in around my full-time jobs. And I'll finally finish paying off my loans just a year or so before my own daughter starts college.

We spent our 20s living frugally and socking away every spare penny for retirement, so that as soon as I go back to work we can reserve most of my salary for college. I'd rather live below my means and work well into my seventies if it means I can give my children the gift of graduating from college with a clean slate, debt-wise.

My parents managed to get me through college with no debt (although I always had a job), and I am eternally grateful. Not having debt allowed me to survive while working entry-level jobs in DC and then to go to grad school (they didn't pay for that!). I don't think I appreciate my college education any less than I would otherwise - maybe I appreciate it more, because I'm not still stuck paying for it! I don't really understand how kids can make it after graduation when they're saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt already.

"Trust me, I didn't value my education any more for having to fit it in around my full-time jobs"

Posted by: NewSAHM | August 19, 2008 8:18 AM

You are a lawyer???

What ever happened to working your way through school and taking out student loans? I will help my children with college but I am not paying for it all.I think that a little hard work never hurt any kid and it also builds character.

"You are a lawyer???"

Yes, though not practicing right now. Why do you ask?

Anonymous: I hear ya. I went to college with a woman who had about 10 siblings, and her parents thought it was important to send them to private school, through high school, but gave none of them any help with college - so some went, some didn't.

My thought is that if our kids don't want to go to college, that's fine, they will learn how much it suc*** in the real world. It's not so easy with a bachelor's degree in any event. So they'd learn that there aren't too many jobs to get, they won't earn but anything, etc. Then I can keep raising rent (if they're living at home - if not - well, then life is *really* expensive).

If I can afford it, I will give the kids whatever I can. We'll work together to see how to pay for it. I didn't even apply to many schools I would have liked to go to because I was discouraged by my parents because of expenses. I NOW know that I should have and we could have possibly figured out how to pay for it. And then I would have had more options.

And I saw plenty of people whose parents paid for their education and failed out by the end of their first year. There is a balance...

Well, there are good points on both sides. I think that if people can afford it, they should give their children a debt free start by paying for their college. I'm certainly aiming to provide that for my own children. However, if people can't afford the tuition, then I'm sure that their children would rather be "saddled with debt" and slowly paying it off, than know that their parents were working far into their 70s because they couldn't afford to retire. I was lucky enough to be a debt free graduate with parents comfortably well off in their retirement but I'd be appalled if my parents were suffering today for my education while there are other options like loans available!
I do have experience paying off student loans in my 20s as I got to assume student loan debt from my fiance when I got married. Even though those payments may have delayed our new home plans slightly, I'm truly glad that my in-laws will be able to retire soon and have a more comfortable retirement than they'd have been able to had they fully paid for my fiance's schooling.

And I saw plenty of people whose parents paid for their education and failed out by the end of their first year.
Posted by: atlmom | August 19, 2008 8:37 AM

And there are plenty of parents in crappy nursing homes who paid for their kids' education. There are no guarantees in life.

My parents thought that saving for my college expenses was "a waste of money" (yes, direct quote) when I was a kid. They had filed bankruptcy by the time I was in high school. They expected me to get scholarships and were a little miffed when I decided to join the military. What the heck did they expect me to do? No money for college, military give me a free ride for a little extra work....bafoons.

Anyway, military route gave me college scott free. And yes, I was glad to not have any college associated debt...it led to better life choices such as being able to afford a mortgage at age 25 and to choose jobs I liked instead of jobs that paid a decent salary when I got out of the military. I had to pay for grad school myself, but I'm alot further ahead financially then if I had waited. I think that college debt is the reason why alot of women put off marriage and having children until they are nearly in their 40s.

My husband on the other hand, went to a state school that his parents paid for and flunked out after two years. Now THAT is a waste of money. It took him 25 years to finally get his undergrad degree.

I plan on saving some for my kids college, but I don't plan on giving them the money or tell them about the money until AFTER they finish college. I call it risk mitigation. I am hoping to at least save up enough to pay for half of the college expenses for two kids.

I just graduated from a state school (UVA) without ever taking a loan. The first few semesters were paid by my parents without major sacrifices, and I'm greatful for that. That was part of the deal: in-state tuition/room/board/fees is covered completely, anything else was up for discussion, for example, Harvard - yes, Penn State - no. I was still working during that time as a research asssitant. Good for your resume, future refs, and it was fun. I also worked every summer (HD, Target, US Congress), for extra pocket money and so I would not feel pressured about choosing the major, etc. After the second year I joined the Army Reserve, and school payments were taken care of, even if I did not do it for monetary reasons. Strictly speaking, if my parents took loans instead of paying for school outright, the loans would have been repaid by the Army too. I understand, it's not for everybody, worked for me, though.

"Plus, if kids pay some of their own way through college, they value it more, Paula H. Hogan told Hamilton." That's biggest load of B.S. ever spoken. Are there any data to back that up? Any at all? No, not one bit. Just a standard stock line from Republicans who think that taking on debt is somehow a good thing.

It's ironic that most of the discussion is about what people's parents did for (or to) them, rather than how they plan to handle their childrens' education. Perhaps a little more forethought and a little less hindsight is needed?

I've got twin toddlers and we're just digging out of the costs of buying and renovating a house in 2005. Not fun, but we kept up our retirement contributions and will begin building up college funds.

I don't plan to have everything pre-paid or done in advance. Just set aside enough so that it's manageable when the time comes. My hopes are to have about half of the money set aside to pay for college for the kids. Also, pay off whatever mortgage we have and shift those monthly payments from the credit union to the university.

Some college loans may be necessary, particularly if one of the kids wants to go to graduate school. I have the responsibility to make sure they get a good education. An MFA isn't necessarily included.

BB

I am so grateful that my mother had the foresight to save for college for us, cause I am well aware that my dad thought that an education was a useless waste of time and money and he would have spent the money, and he'd still have no money for retirement.

What ever happened to working your way through school and taking out student loans? I will help my children with college but I am not paying for it all.I think that a little hard work never hurt any kid and it also builds character.

Posted by: Irishgirl | August 19, 2008 8:27 AM

Here's how it builds character. I worked my butt off in HS to achieve a 3.99 and 98% SAT scores. I went to a state school at full price when I could have qualified for large grants at private schools, lowering the aggregate price tag of my B.S., if my parents would have permitted me to consider any of them. But, no - o. They were convinced public was always less expensive than private, and wouldn't look at any of the offers. They paid for $1K a year on $9K of tuition, room and board. Their income was to high for me to qualify for any on-campus jobs like those nice cushy ones where you work at the library and study during your shift. I had no car so I risked my safety 4 nights a week during all four years walking home, through a dark city, from a waitressing job at 2 a.m. I'm very lucky that I wasn't a victim of crime, but had no other choice to pay my tuition. My grades were not as good as they would have been if I had been able to focus on school and, frankly, get sufficient sleep. 8 a.m. classes and the late shift don't jibe.

After I graduated, I was trapped in a dead-end job for 12 years paying off my undergraduate school loans because I didn't have enough money for the applications to graduate school and couldn't take a lower paying, but better opportunity job and still support myself with my then-existing education debt. I couldn't even afford health insurance for 4 years in my 20s. In my mid-30s, I finally paid off my undergrad loans and had saved enough to apply to grad school. I took on significant debt and graduated at 37. In the absence of a lottery win, I will never be able to be home with my kids, negotiate a part-time work arrangement, or retire because I have 5 figures of education debt to pay off and fewer earning years in which to do it.

Thanks, Mom and Dad, for being so selfish.

If you can't afford to cover undergrad, or a significant portion of it, fine. If you can afford to help with the debt payments from time to time for a kid who is making prudent choices in her 20s, that's another option. here's what's free: keeping an open mind about your kid's opportunities, appreciating the impact on career choices of imposing significant debt on a kid (no public service for the debt-burdened), and step in where you can for a kid who is working hard.

From teaching college, it seems that working full-time while attending college doesn't seem to make most kids appreciate it more - rather the opposite. They get lower grades because they can't invest the time, and make far fewer contacts.
Some people do well anyhow, some families don't have a choice, but if you can save the money for your kids to go to college it's a good investment in their lives. Make it clear that studying/etc. is their job. Treat the parent contribution as a scholarship that can be lost for poor grades. Why have them work at a restaurant during finals week instead of writing papers and studying to save a few hundred bucks on top of thousands? Penny-wise and pound-foolish.

And when I went to grad school, I definitely did not want to borrow money (which I ended up doing, anyway, and paying off within a year or so of graduation).

My mom had the idea that she would pay for state school, or if I got into an ivy, she would pay for that, come he** or high water. She'd figure out a way. Didn't come to that, but going to the state school I did, was much better than our in state schools..

"I just graduated from a state school (UVA) without ever taking a loan. The first few semesters were paid by my parents without major sacrifices, and I'm greatful for that."

You graduated from Virginia and can't spell "grateful"? Recall that diploma, Casteen!!

inBoston, Kudos to you for a succinct explanation of the downside of working through school.

"In the absence of a lottery win, I will never be able to be home with my kids, negotiate a part-time work arrangement, or retire because I have 5 figures of education debt to pay off and fewer earning years in which to do it.

Thanks, Mom and Dad, for being so selfish."

Professional martyr.

I don't know what we will do about funding school for the children. I don't think my husband or my ex have even thought about it.

My mother probably paid for about 1 year of my education. She gave me a little bit of money every year that covered about 2/3 of my tuition. I was on my own for the rest of it. 2 years were paid by a grant/loan combination from the govt (mostly grant). In my third year, my mom didn't agree with some financial decisions that I made so she wouldn't fill out the forms for govt assistance so I was completely on my own except for the bit of money she had already saved. I worked and saved my money and I was broke as hell for the final two years. I walked out of school with less than 5k in student loans.

Did I appreciate working for my education? Not particularly. Mostly I was mad that my mom wouldn't even fill out the forms - it is not like I was asking for HER money - so I wasn't struggling with food and housing in my final year. I suppose it motivated me to show her that she hadn't screwed me out of my education after all with the 'lesson' she felt she was giving.

I tutored kids in undergrad who were seen as at risk (i.e., had been accepted into school even though they didn't have the grades to get in, but the college was letting them in because they had been 'disadvantaged' by being from inner city, or whatever).

Those kids were REQUIRED to attend the tutoring sessions. They showed up for a few weeks, then stopped attending because they had greek socials or whatever (yes, this is what they'd talk about when they *did* show up - no studying really going on). As a tutor, I certainly had no authority to do anything, but it was interesting to watch. These students had everything paid for them, and they didn't care one bit about it - no one cared to show these kids the opportunity they had, that if they took advantage of it, they would have so much to look forward to. Instead, they thought the social aspect was so cool and they took advantage of *that*. It was so sad.

If you instill that education is important to your kids, and yet still pay their way, they will know it's important (my DH and I have 4 degrees between us, the kids will know it's important). Then they will take advantage. If they don't have that value, they will not take advantage (as many 'upper class' kids showed in college by partying when they could and dropping out cause of failing grades).

It's all in how the kids are. If my kids don't seem to think it's important, and seem to want to go cause they want to get drunk every night, then I might think twice before giving them money. If they can show that they are going to be going for an education (and there's nothing wrong with socializing) then it would be a different story. So, we'll see....

Billie: surely you know you could fill out those forms. If she hadn't been supporting you, you could certainly be on your own and get your own grants/loans.
I am very grateful that my parents paid for my education, and that my in laws paid for my DH's education (and his grad degree was paid for by his company at the time). We are so lucky to have had that support. So we've never had any loans, and we have been able to make our decisions based on that (like, if we had 10s of thousands in loans, it would have been more difficult for me to make the decision to be home (again) with the kids).

regarding not getting into GMU and JMU from Northern Virginia, there are other state schools in Virginia; Radford, Christopher Newport, Mary Washington and ODU come to mind. Parents set their expectations too high, then whine when their offspring don't get into the top schools. We have a baby boom trying to get into college right now, this problem should go away over the next ten years.

"If you instill that education is important to your kids, and yet still pay their way, they will know it's important (my DH and I have 4 degrees between us, the kids will know it's important)."

"4 degrees between us" It's all in how the kids are."

LOL!!!!

What are the stats?

atlmom--you are mistaken...the forms have to be signed by a parent/guardian and you can't apply for aid separately until you're 24, whether or not you're supporting yourself, unless you get married, have a baby, become a ward of the state or join the military.

Anecdata on appreciating the education more when you pay for it: I appreciate my education a great deal because I worked tooth and nail to get it. Part-time and full-time jobs, loan money, and sheer perservance got me through a state school in 4 years with a B+ gpa. I was also 50% of the financial support my parents and siblings were receiving during those 4 years. Did I join a sorority or go greek? Um, no. But I got out and made something of myself and I'm in a great deal of debt still, but I'm not whining to my parents about it or anyone here. Help your children become intelligent, functioning members of society, don't let them hide behind their own feelings of inadequacy by whining about their entitlements.

atlmom,

Now there is a catch 22...

When I was going to school in Canada... in order to call yourself an independent student and apply for assistance... you had to prove that you were NOT dependent on your parents. Basically, that meant you had to prove that your parents in no way intended to finance your education or provide support in any other way. I could not have proven this intent on my mother's side.

My father did provide such a letter in my first year (and he didn't provide any support) so I was able to get very good govt assistance in my first two years because my mom was considered a single parent (divorced does not imply single - there is still an implication that both parents will provide support)

So... she wouldn't help me get govt assistance as a dependent and prevented me from getting govt assistance as an independent. At that time, your parents really had quite a bit of control of your education. You have to remember that this was more than 20 years ago.

"Parents set their expectations too high, then whine when their offspring don't get into the top schools. "

Some parents live to brag, brag, brag.

we only get the tax advantages of contributing to the retirement stuff each year...
------------------------------------------------

I am not sure about Georgia but many states offer a tax credit or deduction against state income tax for contributions to college savings plans (529 plans.) The savings for college website has good details on this.

(Yes, I know that not all states have a state income tax.)

"The catch-22, however, is that a solid B student with solid AP honors and 85th percentile on college entrance boards from Northern Virginis might be on the cusp of getting into James Madison or GMU -- it's not good enough to make the cut into a top-tier VA university if you're a kid from NoVa with those scores... that shocked me."

Just curious ... why does that shock you? UVA, W&M, VT are excellent schools. UVA and W&M have a multi-decade national reputation and W&M is one of the oldest and most historic schools in the country. A "B" student with AP classes under his/her belt is a dime a dozen, and those are not dime-a-dozen schools. I attended one of the above schools many, many years ago and it was difficult to be admitted even then - nowadays you really need to be an academic star.

My grandparents came to this country in smelly rags. I appreciate EVERYTHING I have.

What's the issue with Penn State?? Two complaints already... As a in-state students all of our family did go to Penn State, and our educations were worth every penny. My parents paid for undergrad only, and I was fortunate enough to have a half-tuition scholarship, one of my brothers had a full tuition scholarship but my youngest brother was unable to get any assistance.

My parents felt it was important to get us through those years without our taking any loans (we didn't qualify for grants/work studies, etc). For grad school we were on our own, and yes I do have a hefty student loan from one of my masters degrees (the other one was paid for with scholarships and grants), but I am so grateful to my parents for their support during the undergrad time.

Actually, I asked my friend who works for the Ohio Tuition Trust Authority and he said that the actual figure is about $600 PER KID. Yowza. I manage $200 per kid per month, and every month as the checking account dwindles to double digits just before payday, I wonder if I've made the right decision

Posted by: Dad with kids from A-Z | August 19, 2008 7:27 AM
-------------------------------------------
We pay a little less than $500 a month for two MD prepaid plans (4 years). We signed up when DD was 4 years old (after we realized that we just weren't saving enough with the 529) and when DS was born (why wait?) I thought this was a bargain, especially after seeing all the tuition hikes.

FWIW, I got a free ride in undergraduate as a faculty dependent (dad was a professor) at an ivy league. It was made very very clear that while undergrad was paid for (the parents paid for room and board, I paid for books and stuff), graduate school was on my tab.

I thought this was a good way - provide the means up to a point. Then if the child wants more than you can or are willing to supply, it's up to the child to supplement.

Sorry about the typo - should read As in-state students (I don't know how that extra "a" got in there :) )

"What ever happened to working your way through school and taking out student loans?"

The cost of education nowadays is prohibitively high for that. 10, 20 years ago, sure it was doable, but costs have skyrocketed now. In order to afford even in-state tuition, a student would basically need to hold down a full-time job while taking classes. If you have a lightweight major, hey maybe it's no big deal. But if you are a computer science major? Chemistry? Physics? Biology? Need straight As to go to law school or med school or veterinary school? No way can you juggle a full time job and a full class load and make the grade.

It doesn't encourage the meaningful exchange of relevant comments if we label anyone who discloses the negative impact of Choice A as a professional martyr or whiner. It's a friggin' anonymous forum. Why the censorship of honesty? Isn't the point to get all the information - good and bad - on the table in order to make our own prudent decisions for our own families? If you have good stories, post them. Comments are no less meaningful because they aren't written by cheerleaders or puritans.

Why are some people so uncomfortable with truth that does not correspond to their personal experience? Are you that insecure, name-callers?

I think honestly whether the parents pay for college or not is up to them; it's something i'll be doing for my kids certainly. The thing to do is to make it fair- in my case, my brother's tuition, housing, books, beer, everything are paid for, and only my rent is, simply because he's the 'golden child' of the family and my parents couldn't afford to do it for both. I think honestly we would both prefer if neither of us were supported than have it this way!

"Need straight As to go to law school"

Posted by: To Irishgirl | August 19, 2008 10:08 AM

LOL!!!!

Billie: in the US, I believe it's that if your parents don't provide a certain percent of your 'upkeep' then you are 'independent. When I was in grad school, I took out a very small loan, and was under 25.

Fred: yes, the deduction in GA is up to I believe $2k? The 401k/IRA amount you can put in is much higher (15k, + 4k, + 4k (two spouses)).

As for Penn State, the state actually only contributes less than 10% of the operating funds. Therefore, the school is VERY expensive. It's a wonderful school, getting better all the time, but I could have gone OUT OF STATE to a school in the south for less than the cost there (even if I was in state).

In North Carolina, in particular, the state picks up so much of the tuition, don't know what tuition is now, but when I was there it was maybe $1k per semester. Out of state wasn't very expensive, but they did not think subsidizing out of state students was the mission (which is why so few out of staters are admitted).

It doesn't encourage the meaningful exchange of relevant comments if we label anyone who discloses the negative impact of Choice A as a professional martyr or whiner. It's a friggin' anonymous forum. Why the censorship of honesty? Isn't the point to get all the information - good and bad - on the table in order to make our own prudent decisions for our own families? If you have good stories, post them. Comments are no less meaningful because they aren't written by cheerleaders or puritans.

Why are some people so uncomfortable with truth that does not correspond to their personal experience? Are you that insecure, name-callers?

With kids from A-Z,

Isn't that the truth about admission to higher education. I entered my university with high school marks in the low 80s (APs and SATs didn't exist in Canada). I did well in university and got on the Dean's List and even received a couple of very small scholarships for marks. In my mind... a kid with marks in the 80s shouldn't have problems with the program.

Fast forward 8 or 9 years... and being curious, I looked up the entrance marks needed to get into the same program I graduated from. 93% was the lowest average from high school that they would accept. Wowsers! I am glad that I went to university when I did. Imagine no longer being able to get into a program that you successfully graduated from.

I am not sure what was driving that huge increase in marks but it sure made me appreciate that I went to university when I did and not years later. That appreciation was further underlined when I saw the tuition rates. For the same program they were paying 3 times what I paid for tuition. It would have definitely been out of my reach financially.

I count my lucky stars that I went to university when I did otherwise I would never have had the opportunity.

Are you that insecure, name-callers?

Posted by: Alma | August 19, 2008 10:12 AM

Pot meet kettle.

"regarding not getting into GMU and JMU from Northern Virginia, there are other state schools in Virginia; Radford, Christopher Newport, Mary Washington and ODU come to mind. Parents set their expectations too high, then whine when their offspring don't get into the top schools."

You are missing the point. There's sort of a quota system in place at UVa, VT, William and Mary, etc. -- If all 500 kids at a NoVa high school qualify academically, maybe half will get in in the name of preserving geographical diversity. So, 250 kids who meet the criteria may get passed over in favor of lower-achieving kids in other parts of the state. I'm not whining -- my kids are only 5 and 3 so it doesn't affect me -- I'm just pointing out what's happening. And it *is* relevant for someone who bought prepaid tuition years ago -- if the kid QUALIFIES for the top-tier schools but is passed over for arbitrary reasons, it erodes the value of the initial investment. If that were me, I'd be a little annoyed, too.

'Need straight As to go to law school." HUH? I work in an office full of lawyers. Some can't find their way across the street by themselves. I wonder how some of them dress themselves in the morning. They also have a lot of screwed up children and unhappy spouses.

Altmom,

Wow! only $2,000/yr. My state is much more generous with the amount deducted!

But taking $2,000 off the taxes is always better than nothing!

think honestly we would both prefer if neither of us were supported than have it this way!

Posted by: Sam | August 19, 2008 10:09 AM

Don't accept the support! Problem solved.

Sorry my post caused someone to rant about their parents. It wasn’t intended to make someone angry.

I didn't say I wouldn't help my kids, but I am not paying for it all. This is what I did. I worked full time and went to school part time until my husband graduated. Then he worked full time and I went to school part time. I worked in a factory and I took out student loans. Yes, I am still paying them off and I really don't care. It was money well spent.

Every summer I got a full time job again or an internship. My husband did the same thing. If the cost of state schools is 6,000 a year why is it not feasible for a kid to earn 3,000 over the summer and take out loans for the rest, plus work 20 hours a week?

needs to be said

undergrad doesn't matter where you go to school

grad school is what matters and in the DC area you almost have to go to grad school to get any decent career advancement

I graduated from an average school (parents paid) got an ok job and now I am going to grad school at a top 20 school (paying myself and using some loans).

No way can you juggle a full time job and a full class load and make the grade.

Posted by: To Irishgirl | August 19, 2008 10:08 AM

Yet thousands of people have.

"Thanks, Mom and Dad, for being so selfish."

How about this for qoute of the day. It speaks for itself

"if my parents would have permitted me to consider any of them."

I thought when you were 18, you were an adult? I know plenty of people who broke free of their parents and did what they wanted to do.

i never said that Dad from A to Z was whining, i meant the parents who show up in the newspaper articles, and others who don't want to face the reality of the situation.
A student only qualifies for acceptance at UVA in comparison to other students in the same applicant pool. Not based on some parental standard. Northern Virginia students are highly qualified for many reasons.
There is nothing wrong with the other state schools in Virginia. It's the parents that are biased, not the students.
I have one who studies and will go to UVA, and one who is just as smart but doesn't want to do homework, and she will go to what ever college wants her, and have a fine life in any event.
And the 5 years olds probably won't face this situation when they are old enough to apply. This is based on population studies.

Then he worked full time and I went to school part time.

Should be he worked fulltime and I went to school full time.

If the cost of state schools is 6,000 a year why is it not feasible for a kid to earn 3,000 over the summer and take out loans for the rest, plus work 20 hours a week?

Posted by: Irishgirl | August 19, 2008 10:35 AM

No bragging rights for the parents.

More needs to be said.

I have only a bachelor's degree but I am making 6 figures.

Helps to get a degree in the right major and work in the right industry.

i forgot to say, i agree there is a quota system when admitting northern virginia students to virginia state schools. the colleges won't admit it, but they have to balance the class.
UVA accepts about 35 students from our high school each year. Not everyone applies to UVA, so if you are in the top 50 students in a class of 400, you are into UVA. That's a larger percentage of students than would be admitted from a sw va school.
It's the anecdotal evidence that upsets people. Sure, little Suzy may have a 3.4, but most students who get into UVA have a 3.8 or above. And they take as many AP classes as they can, 4 to 6 junior and senior years. So start working hard on those grades as a freshman.

Newsflash! There are also schools all across the country that are affordable. You don't just have to send the kiddies to East Coast schools. Out of state tuition you ask? Well, if you are savvy, you can find ways around that. Like letting little Suzy, go to the branch campus until she changes her license, gets a job, etc, etc.

Out of state tuition you ask? Well, if you are savvy, you can find ways around that. Like letting little Suzy, go to the branch campus until she changes her license, gets a job, etc, etc.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 10:54 AM

Flyover school!!
No bragging rights for the parents.

I feel I can speak from both sides of the issue. I went to what is now an extremely expensive private university in the early 1970's, and paid my own way through (I came from a large family). I commuted the first 2 years and worked over 30 hours/week. You could just manage it with the level of tuition at the time, with loans and work study and some scholarship money. It was VERY HARD to participate in any kind of college activities or to network. It took me several years to pay off the undergrad and law school debt. However, with the exponential increase in private college costs over the past 30 years, paying my own way would be impossible now. I am not sure paying my own way through made me appreciate my education any more than if my parents were able to assist me, and I missed out on a lot of the college experience.

We purchased Virginia prepaid tuition plans, and set up 529 plans and educational IRAs. My children (fortunately) got accepted to Virginia schools and private universities (including two Ivies). However, when they compared the respective costs, each of them chose in-state. We are giving them the gift of graduating undergrad debt-free, although they are expected to work in the summers to pay for books and other expenses. One child is insisting as she enters her third year on paying all non-tuition expenses herself from her research position earnings. Both students will be expected to pay most of their grad/professional school expenses themselves.

The strategy is to consistently live well below your income, if possible, and start saving for college (and retirement!) from the year(s) the children are born.

The College Board's statement of average college costs is well below the actuality.

Sorry my post caused someone to rant about their parents. It wasn’t intended to make someone angry.

Posted by: Irishgirl | August 19, 2008 10:35 AM

uh. You didn't make anyone angry. You said something shallow and silly and people pointed out it was shallow and silly. That's the way the world works.

I didn't even apply to many schools I would have liked to go to because I was discouraged by my parents because of expenses. I NOW know that I should have and we could have possibly figured out how to pay for it. And then I would have had more options.

Posted by: atlmom | August 19, 2008 8:33 AM

Darwinism takes its course...

I feel the numbers are a little deceptive. Clearly they were only for tuition. However most students do have housing/food costs that can be as much or more then the tuition.

My savings plan was to save for everything at the same time. I opened accounts for each child as soon as they were born. This has already paid for catholic school and 1 out of state tuition/costs (VA Tech). Second child starts at state (PA) school next week. Third child still in middle school.

(Aside - I know many are upset by the number of No Va students who don't get into Tech and the other state schools. But this is the only college my son ever wanted to attend. And would it be fair to tell him he can't go there because his parents (class of 76 and 77) moved to another state? Also without those out of state tuitions in state costs will go up)

We have only owned one house. Mortgage is paid off. All that money goes to college. It is amazing how much money you can save if you don't house hop. As my uncle said they only come in 2 genders. They don't all need their on room(s) and bathroom.

I am willing to essentially foot the bill for my kids' college years (a max of four). However, my stepdaughter chose to do something stupid instead of going to college so that negated our willingness to do it for her -- in other words, if you decide to launch out on your own and live with your boyfriend at age 18 instead of living at home until you head to school for your frosh year, the deal's off. It will be the same for our other kids. Good thing she saw the light and is now on a good path, due to graduate next December. But she's paying about 50% of her expenses (tuition, living, etc.) and it would have been MUCH easier if she'd listened to us when she had the chance. Live and learn . . .

it would have been MUCH easier if she'd listened to us when she had the chance.

So, what skin is it off your nose?

They also have a lot of screwed up children and unhappy spouses.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 10:26 AM

Oops! Your bitterness and jealousy are showing!

But she's paying about 50% of her expenses (tuition, living, etc.) and it would have been MUCH easier if she'd listened to us when she had the chance. Live and learn . . .

Posted by: WorkingMomX | August 19, 2008 11:07 AM

Could it be that your stepdaughter left home because she couldn't stand you?

living with the boyfriend for june, july and august after graduation is any different than what young people do at college? Except their mean, unforgiving stepmothers don't know about it?

living with the boyfriend for june, july and august after graduation is any different than what young people do at college? Except their mean, unforgiving stepmothers don't know about it?

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 11:17 AM

Wonder if Workingmom X will be this critical of her bio children.....

Gosh, anonymous, you're so cheerful today. Did you forget the extra Xanax?

Yes, that's almost certainly exactly why she left home. And it's no skin off my nose to not pay the full bill for college. It's called tough love, and it's what you do when someone you care about follows a pattern of making life-screwing decisions.

Uma please explain to us all how wanting "adults" not "kids" to pay for part of their education is shallow and silly? Do you even know what those words mean? I bet you don't, but I bet mummy and daddy can look them up for you.

mean people suck

but where is the boyfriend?

A lot depends on which country (US or Canada) my son opts for. But we have a modest savings plan in place for him, and will have paid off our mortgage by the time he graduates if not a couple of years earlier.

Assuming his capabilities are pretty much normal (that is, he doesn't have to struggle so hard in school he can't work in the summers, etc.), my plan is to match dollar-for-dollar whatever he saves from summer work, and whatever he earns in bursaries/scholarships, and then possibly top it up after that.

But I would like him to have some buy-in into it.

If he had to take a year off to work in between I think that might be just fine, depending again on the young man he becomes... I kind of wish I had done that, it would have helped me to focus my goals better.

I think uma was the poster who was to stupid to go to private school, to naive to get a job in the library and to immature to stop blaming her parents for everything that is wrong in her life.

Funny you should ask. I just found out recently that he's in prison on a drug dealing charge. (I think it was the second or third time caught.) He gets out early next year. He's a real prize, that guy.

Gee, wonder why we didn't want our child passing up the opportunity to go to college instead of moving in with him. We must have been insane. Also, mean, unforgiving and critical. If it were to happen with one of my biological children, surely I should let them just go on their merry way with no consequences. That sounds like a GREAT plan.

No one has mentioned the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) form that my son filled out. I am a single mom so after he filled out the form he got a lot of need based scholarships and grants. My daughter filled out the FAPSA form and is going to community college for free on the Pell Grant.

Yes, that's almost certainly exactly why she left home. And it's no skin off my nose to not pay the full bill for college. It's called tough love, and it's what you do when someone you care about follows a pattern of making life-screwing decisions.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | August 19, 2008 11:21 AM

And the father?
Wish the stepdaughter was posting today...

many colleges now approve of a year off between high school and college, for working or self exploration. they are finding that the high school students can be burned out from working so hard in high school.
(I'm not saying i like this situation, but i'm living it now, and just trying to offer information.)

I started plotting to leave home when I was 8 years old because I couldn't stand my mother. I left home at 19 to work for the Gov't. Eventually worked my way through night school working two jobs. A very expensive private school. To the day she died, my mother could not remember the name of the school but she put a notice in her church bulletin that I had graduated --- not a dime from my parents. Bragging rights? She didn't do a thing to earn them. Ding, dong the witch is dead.

uma I have no idea how to respond to your post.

Working momX you did the right thing. Sometimes people need tough love.

Working momX you did the right thing. Sometimes people need tough love.

Posted by: Irishgirl | August 19, 2008 11:38 AM

Really? Is that what you do when some members of your family ask for help again and gain and again? What tough love did you show for your niece who gave birth to the out of wedlock baby?

As a couple of posters have mentioned it and my AF dau will be attending school soon with its benefits, I will detail the benefits of the new GI Bill. These benefits will be effective August 2009. Full eligibility comes with 36 months of service and there are benefits for lesser lengths of service.

This is much improved over what poor old Fred had under the then existing GI Bill. (Yes, Fred worked 2 pt jobs and went to college FT.)

You are entitled to a percentage, as determined by your length of active duty service, of the following:

- Amount of tuition and fees charged, not to exceed the most expensive in-State undergraduate tuition at a public institution of higher education (paid to school);

- Monthly housing allowance equal to the basic allowance for housing (BAH) amount payable to a military E-5 with dependents, in same zip code as school * (paid to you);
and

- Yearly books and supplies stipend of up to $1000* per year (paid to you); and
- A one time payment of $500 may be payable to certain individuals relocating from highly rural areas.

It's called tough love, and it's what you do when someone you care about follows a pattern of making life-screwing decisions.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | August 19, 2008 11:21 AM

Wonder how "tough" the love would have been if it had been a bio daughter....

look out you are about to fall...........

"out of wedlock baby"

Anonymous, it won't work. Pick on someone else today. Or go take a long look in the mirror and think about yourself.

It is NOT as easy to gain "independent" status for financial aid purposes as it was 20-30 years ago. (I did so -- but it is darned near impossible to do so now.) These are the current questions used to determine dependent status:

From the FAFSA Dependency Eligibility website: http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/FOTWWebApp/fotw0809/WorksheetServlet?wstype=WSDEP&locale=en_US
Were you born before January 1, 1985 (question 48)?
At the beginning of the school year 2008-2009 will you be working on a master's or doctorate program (such as an MA, MBA, MD, JD, PhD, EdD, or graduate certificate, etc.) (question 49)?
As of today are you married? (Answer "Yes" if you are separated, but not divorced.) (question 50)
Do you have children who receive more than half of their support from you (question 51)?
Do you have dependents (other than children or spouse) who live with you and who receive more than half of their support from you, now and through June 30, 2009 (question 52)?
Are (a) both of your parents deceased, or (b) are you (or were you until age 18) a ward or dependent of the court (question 53)?
Are you currently serving on active duty in the U.S. Armed Forces for purposes other than training (question 54)?
Are you a veteran of the U.S. Armed Forces (question 55)?

i come from a culture where education is valued over anything else. as a child/teenager/young adult, it is your job to study and do well. there is no question that you won't go to college....it is absolutely expected. and it is not seen as the child's responsibility to finance their own education, it is seen as the parents' responsibility. so parents put a good chunk of money away for their kids so that they never have to worry about the burden of working or taking on loans during college.

on the flip side, it is also expected that once the children grow up and become productive citizens who are earning a good salary, that they take care of their aging parents later in life. it's give and take, and it balances out at the end. of course my parents have retirement money put away after paying for both my sister's education and my own, but we knwo that we also have the responsibility to take care of them if they need it during their retirement and old age.

Anonymous, it won't work. Pick on someone else today. Or go take a long look in the mirror and think about yourself.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | August 19, 2008 11:46 AM

It already has worked, CSS graduate.

Those of you who say you're not going to fund college for your kids -- colleges don't buy that argument. Whether or not you (or your ex-spouse) want to contribute, the colleges will assume X% of your assets and income and assume you will pony that up.

I have a niece whose father abandoned her wehen she was

Agree with previous poster who said that the tuition charges are misleading -- room, board, books and fees will double (and in some cases more) that amount.

Yes, saving for your retirement should be your number one savings priority but the kids' education should not be ignored completely (you don't want them still living with you when they are 30 do you?.

This is what I like to call the "SpareTheRod Plan For Financial Success--Ways to Save More" (Please ignore the fact that I'm not a financial success):

1.) Don't buy more house than you need--if you have two kids you only need three to four bedrooms (who are you trying to impress?). Put the savings into your college funds and retirement accounts.
2.) Don't waste money on the wrong cars--you don't need a Lexus for dad, a Mercedes SUV for mom and a Porsche for the weekends. Again, put the savings away
3.) Don't buy your kids a new toy evey time you go to the store because you feel guilty for dumping them off at daycare so mom can have a career.
4.) As soon as the kids are 16 y.o., full time summer job with most of it going to a college savings account.
5.) Family vacations should be limited to afternoons at the community pool--if you take them somewhere, their lack of self-disipline will drive you and everyone around you nuts. Avoid the dirty looks. It's alot cheaper form them to whine and cry at the neighborhood pool than it is at Disneyland. Pocket the savings.
6.) NO cell phones for the kids--you are micro-managing their lives so they are never away from you long enough to need to call you? It also allows you to answer "All the other kids have cell phones" with the classic "If all the other kids jumped off a bridge..."
7.) NO student loans (or at least don't co-sign)--since your kids are all going to be failures (but with high self esteem), they can't erase student loans with bankruptcy.

This cut off the middle of my comment!

My niece's father abandoned her before she was two. Never paid child support, has been working under the table for years to avoid garnishment. No contact whatsoever. My sister will have to provide years of court orders and confirmation from Social Security that the father is out of the picture before they exclude him from the FA calculation.

My parents did not limit my choice of college. I applied to non-Ivy but selective colleges and ended going to a college of my choice because it suited my career choice and my personality. My family came to the US from another country where education is highly valued and it is unthinkable not to apply to most prestigious colleges. My family had no money but I got a combination of loans, scholarships, and work study money. I had a small student loan to pay for after undergrad. When I went to grad school I paid for it myself and had more student loans, but nowhere near the amount an average college graduate has today. I believe in giving my children all the advantages that I can and hope that they will not have to struggle as hard as I did, so we are saving for their college education after funding our 401(K) plans. I am not too worried about them feeling "priviledged" since we always tell them that all we have is a result of hard work, good education, and sensible livestyle.

Once again, Spare the Rod, you are wrong. You must have gone to a CSS.

EVERYONE knows that Parental Standard Lecture 42359.A7(3c) start, "If all the other kids jumped off a cliff..."

This is what I like to call the "SpareTheRod Plan For Financial Success--Ways to Save More" (Please ignore the fact that I'm not a financial success):

SpareTheRod

Ha,ha.

i come from a culture where...i do not know how to use the shift key, you know, UPPER CASE.

And what if your child is not college material, then what? Is it the end of the world? Guess what, I tried college more than once and discovered that I am not college material and still managed to have a successful life and good retirement. Best part of all is that we got out of the Washington area and life is great.

I went to a private school mostly on scholarship and loans. The decision was made for me because it was the cheapest option for my struggling parents - half the cost of in-state NY tuition.

Now I teach at a western state university. I appreciate the hard working students here much more than the spoiled students at the Ivy league school I got my PhD from or even at UVA (my MS) - too many elitist NOVA kids (not all, but those were often outcompeted by the NOVA kids because of lack of HS preparation - another topic).

The students here work many of the jobs in town and are much more appreciative and respectful of the profs in and out of the classroom. There is very little whining about grades. I have many, many stories of Ivy kids demanding better grades just because their parents paid so much for tuition.

"Billie: surely you know you could fill out those forms. If she hadn't been supporting you, you could certainly be on your own and get your own grants/loans."

She may have been able to fill out the forms, but she'd still have needed her mom's financial information to apply for any aid, and if mom wouldn't provide it, she'd have been SOL. The only way to get around that is to prove you're emancipated and taking no support from your parents. That's what I did for undergrad.

Even for law school, students were ineligible for financial aid if they didn't provide their parents' information, even though most parents don't pay for grad school.

"And what if your child is not college material, then what? "

No bragging rights for the parents.

what a fascinating discussion! i think it's so interesting the extent to which adults blame their parents for life decisions that were at least partially their own.

a few comments:
1. Coming out of high school, I had high SAT scores, terrific grades, and was a National Merit finalist. There were MY achievements, not my parents (though certainly they were partially due to my parents' genes and encouragement.) A great deal of scholarship money was offered to me as a result. Students who did not work so hard in HS have little basis to complain for not being offered scholarships, in my view.

2. There are tons of scholarships based on obscure things like "being named Nancy". Seriously. I spent hours and hours researching these and got additional money for college as a result. Students who do not make the time to do this research can blame only themselves for not having access to these funds.

3. It is hard for 17-year-olds to have the clarity of vision to make the right choice of college. Parents play a hugely important role in guiding this decision. Finances is only part of the story: whether or not you choose a "party school", etc, may affect the rest of your life. The friends I made in college hugely impacted my later contacts and career options. The location of my college (DC) ultimately led me to my DH.

4. Working 30 hours a week throughout college (40+ in the summers) was difficult, but necessary to cover expenses not paid by my scholarships and my parents. I could have chosen an easier path by going to a cheaper school. My parents did a good job of talking this through with me, so I knew what I was getting myself into from the beginning.

5. When I went to Prague after college to teach ESL, most of my coworkers were British, and none of them had any student loans. They were much freer to travel and extend their time in Prague (making low Czech salaries) than my American coworkers who were saddled with student debt. It makes a huge difference!

My my, the biting comments from all the anonymous users today. One more reason all posts should be signed.

With regards to undergrad loans and grad school, all undergrad loans can be deferred until you've finished graduate school. Even if you took some time off after graduating. So, I won't be too bothered if the kids incur debt to get a graduate degree

bb

I think uma was the poster who was to stupid to go to private school, to naive to get a job in the library and to immature to stop blaming her parents for everything that is wrong in her life.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 11:30 AM

Anon, my man, look in the mirror to see stupid, naive and immature. Whilst you gaze, here's a free vocab lesson for you: "too" means also or too much of a particular quality. "To" is a preposition or part of an infinitive. "Naive", like inconceivable, does not mean what you think it means.

pearls, no one was talking to you and you missed the point, to boot. No surprise, that.

The students here work many of the jobs in town and are much more appreciative and respectful of the profs in and out of the classroom. There is very little whining about grades. I have many, many stories of Ivy kids demanding better grades just because their parents paid so much for tuition.

Posted by: western state prof | August 19, 2008 12:18 PM

Oh, brother! You're whining here about whining kids!!!

If anything, these comments can be a cautionary tale to parents about how your kids might view your savings choices when they go to college. I was very lucky--my father had the income when I was in college to basically write a check for the college of my choice. And I mean lucky--if I were 7 or 8 years older, there probably would have been nothing due to debt and a much lower family income. I have thanked him many, many times for his willingness to pay for my education, but he also made it clear at the time that the money came with strings attached, much like a scholarship--min. GPA, course requirements, and an understanding that I would not skip classes, and a promise to finish in 4 years, meaning no taking time off. No resentment there on my part. If he's going to pay upwards of $80K for something, he can set his own rules.

That said, our goal with our son is to save enough so that he could go to a state school without having to work, or, he could take out loans/work to go to a private school. Grandpa has actually started a college savings for him, too. Lucky boy, too, based on the last balance check. Our priority is, honestly, our retirement. If push came to shove and our money got tight, the college account is the one that would suffer. Like someone said above, they don't hand out grants and scholarships for retirement, and I doubt Social Security will be there, either.

Oh, brother! You're whining here about whining kids!!!

Posted by: Sheesh | August 19, 2008 12:22 PM

You obviously haven't spent entire days wasting your time arguing with student after student over 0.1% of a grade. I only mentioned it because when I moved out here there was such a stark contrast. It is really quite remarkable.

"deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment… "from websters online.

As in, you were naive and did not know you could apply and work in the library even though your family had money.

"Naive", like inconceivable, does not mean what you think it means.

While we are all learning the comma goes inside the quotation marks dearie like so "Naive,"

You should also know that anything you post on a blog is up for discussion by anyone. That’s the way the world works. Oh, and your post to Irishgirl had no point, which is probably why she doesn’t know what to say to it.

"Coming out of high school, I had high SAT scores, terrific grades, and was a National Merit finalist. There were MY achievements, not my parents (though certainly they were partially due to my parents' genes and encouragement.) A great deal of scholarship money was offered to me as a result. Students who did not work so hard in HS have little basis to complain for not being offered scholarships, in my view."

and you've been patting yourself on the back ever since.

There are no merit or academic scholarships for middle-class white kids at most state schools. All aid is need-based. If your parents' income puts you out of need-based aid, there's not a thing you can do about that. The school assumes parents are contributing whether or not they are.

In addition, much need-based aid comes in the form of loans, not grants. That takes us to the beginning of the conversation. Debt.

Oh, and your post to Irishgirl had no point, which is probably why she doesn’t know what to say to it.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 12:39 PM

Errrrrrrr. Not really.

But what does CSS mean?

Your kids are the future, not you! Spend the money on their college first, then worry about your retirement.

What ever happened to just going to a community college for 2 years, and then going to a 4 year school? That is always an option.

Personally, I'm shocked at the number of people that I have worked with (IT) that did not go to college, and even when the company would reimburse, they didn't take up the offer!

Newslinks, you are SOOOOO SPECIAL!!! I fall backwards onto my bruised tuchus in awe of your scholarship, financial acumen and cultural sagacity!

I bet people line up and pay good money to sniff your farts.

"Errrrrrrr. Not really."

I didn't know the dog could type.

You obviously haven't spent entire days wasting your time arguing with student after student over 0.1% of a grade.

Posted by: western state prof | August 19, 2008 12:31 PM

Why do you waste your time on this?

Someone mentioned something about what do you do if your child isn't college material...

Has anyone thought about apprenticeships? At the end of some apprenticeships you can make some pretty good money. I expect my husband to make more money than I (after a 4 year degree and 15 years experience) almost as soon as he graduates from his program.

And speaking of appreciation for getting an education...
My husband grew up in a third world country. Yes... public universities are cheap (like the equivalent of several hundred $ a year) but it is still difficult to get in one and even more difficult to afford one. My husband completed 4 out of 5 years of his degree in engineering and then had to quit to care for his mother and sisters when his father died.

It is basically an impossibility for us to afford a university education for him and also look to our future. He said he would have to start his entire university program over again. Instead, this year, he applied for an apprenticeship program and got accepted. This program not only pays you to work, they also pay you for the hours you spend in school - at your going hourly rate. This is an amazing opportunity for his future. Because of this, he thinks America is an incredible country because it is truly a land of opportunity. He said he never would have had an opportunity like this in his country. Why? Because he wouldn't have been accepted into a training program at his age (34). He would have been considered washed-up and too old. We have been watching the Olympics this last week and on more than one occasion when I have asked what country he was supporting in a particular event, he replied 'US because it has given me an opportunity to succeed' His appreciation for this country puts me, and I am sure many others, to shame.

"There are no merit or academic scholarships for middle-class white kids at most state schools. All aid is need-based. If your parents' income puts you out of need-based aid, there's not a thing you can do about that. The school assumes parents are contributing whether or not they are."

Honestly asking, not picking a fight--Is this really true? The vast majority of my friends from HS, nearly all middle-class white kids, went to state schools in the midwest and many, many of them got huge scholarships. Many of them were through the National Merit Scholar program, others were academic scholarships through the schools' honors programs. This would have been more than 10 years ago. Has all that changed? Or is my state just unusual?

'US because it has given me an opportunity to succeed'

How about the USA because this is where I live? Ask not what your country..............

What in the world is a "DH"? Based on context, it can't be Designated Hitter--looks like you're talking about your spouse? Dead Husband? Damn Husband? Drunk Husband? Crazy kids and their internet lingo...I can't keep up.

PS...I don't think parents should feel obligated to pay for their kids lives (including college) after age 18. Nor should the kids expect anything. Nor should the government expect anything when calculating financial aid. If the parents want to contribute, then fine. But the expectation that they will is patently unfair, especially to the student whose parents income prevents them from getting financial aid, but who also do not receive any parental contribution.

My family came to the US from another country where education is highly valued and it is unthinkable not to apply to most prestigious colleges.

Posted by: IMHO | August 19, 2008 12:01 PM

What is the suicide rate in that country?

His appreciation for this country puts me, and I am sure many others, to shame.

Posted by: Billie | August 19, 2008 12:46 PM

How do you know?

It is interesting as someone who did pay her way through school to read through these posts. If my parents had paid my way right out of high school, I wouldn't have appreciated it. I wouldn't have understood what that really meant. I do now, but I lived frugally after college to pay off my $30K in college debt from going to W&M. That much because I had to pay for everything because by the time I went, I was 24 and completely independent and while you can do some work while in school, $7/hr for 15 hours a week only helps a little. One thing I did before W&M was attend NVA Community College. So I had an associate's degree as back-up and then only attended W&M for 3 years. I am surprised that no one has suggested that route since it gives kids a slower pace plus transferring in is much easier than trying to get in straight from high school. It means that you don't have a freshman hall, but it doesn't mean you don't make friends. Heck, I married one of my friends from college and he is 5 years younger :).

Why do you waste your time on this?

Posted by: ???? | August 19, 2008 12:46 PM

I don't anymore. Partly because of experience, mostly because of locale.

In the past two years out west I have had one request for a minor grade change (and the student was correct but it didn't really matter). In contrast, every graded item at the Ivy school and UVA (where I was a TA and instructor) was contested, no matter how minor, by 25% of the class. They would line up at the door after class even if I told them it really wouldn't matter much to their final grade.

In today's WSJ:

"Even as the economy slumps and unemployment rises, strong demand for power plants, oil refineries and export goods has many manufacturers and construction contractors scrambling to find enough skilled workers to plug current and future holes.

With the shortage of welders, pipe fitters and other high-demand workers likely to get worse as more of them reach retirement age, unions, construction contractors and other businesses are trying to figure out how to attract more young people to those fields.

Their challenge: overcoming the perception that blue-collar trades offer less status, money and chance for advancement than white-collar jobs, and that college is the best investment for everyone."

Fund your retirement. Pay for trade school.

We are saving almost ALL for our retirement. My husband is Belgian. His high income taxes help make their state universities laughably cheap - we're talking $3000 a year. If she wants to go to a school in the U.S. she'll have to do like my sisters and I did: get full scholarships. Kids need to learn to work for things they want.

In contrast, every graded item at the Ivy school and UVA (where I was a TA and instructor)..................

Was uma one of your students?

"Kids need to learn to work for things they want. "

That is a silly and shallow way of thinking.

Anyone who worked to pay for their own education but doesn't appreciate it made a mistake. Such people should have chosen less expensive colleges.

You obviously haven't spent entire days wasting your time arguing with student after student over 0.1% of a grade. I only mentioned it because when I moved out here there was such a stark contrast. It is really quite remarkable.

Posted by: western state prof | August 19, 2008 12:31 PM

They are just practicing being lawyers like mommie and daddy want them to be!

"Even as the economy slumps and unemployment rises, strong demand for power plants, oil refineries and export goods has many manufacturers and construction contractors scrambling to find enough skilled workers to plug current and future holes.

With the shortage of welders, pipe fitters'

Dirty, dangerous job. Nope.

"Dirty, dangerous job. Nope. "

That's right. Become a mortgage banker where you can fook the clients and never get your johnson dirty.

We're paying for the kids' undergraduate educations. We've been saving since they were born, through a combination of mutual funds, savings accounts, savings bonds and (since they've been available) 529's.

They've all had jobs, and half the money they've ever gotten, other than gifts, has gone into the college savings accounts, too. They have a lot of skin in the game, so to speak.

If they want to go to a school that we can't afford, then they better get scholarships.

Oldest daughter is at a good private college with an academic scholarship paying a significant amount of her tuition; we make up the difference. She has jobs that pay for all of her personal expenses.

We're doing this because my parents never paid a nickel toward my college education. They really couldn't afford to, given the jobs they had (Dad a career Army NCO; Mom a teacher). I went through undergrad on academic scholarships plus three jobs, and through grad school on a fellowship. I want my kids to have a better opportunity than I did, plain and simple.

I max out 401k, and contribute as much as possible to Maryland College Savings Plan, which is tax deductible up to $2500 per account. I've plunked a couple of bonuses in there, and now consistently try to put at least that much in there each year for each of my two kids (2 and 5). Though this year has been tough on my 529.

You can actually contribute more than $2500 per child and get the tax write off in MD. Each parent can do it, so that would be 5k per child. And if you get creative, you can open a college account for your spouse, and contribute, and later change the beneficiary to your children. So you could countribute like $7500 per child a year or more, tax free. Needless to say, like most people, I haven't been able to save quite that much.

What's staggering is that even saving like $2500 a year per child is no where near enough. So at some point, I need to ratchet it up.

I don't want to get into the whole debate about whether you should/must pay for your children to go to college. That's a personal issue.

I want my kids to have a better opportunity than I did, plain and simple.

Posted by: ArmyBrat | August 19, 2008 1:18 PM

Plus bragging rights.

"Dad a career Army NCO; Mom a teacher"

Wealthy compared to my parents.

I'm realizing from all of this discussion that I and my kids are incredibly lucky in my choice of employer - a major financial services company - and in the timing of their births (serious fertility issues, so there was no planning in having them five years apart) and my retirement plans.

My 401(k) has been well funded both by me and my employer, and the plan has a lot of flexibility for borrowing from it. It's going to be both their primary source of college funds, and my retirement.

Older son will graduate in '10 (assuming he does graduate - his inclusion teachers are suggesting that we go for a certificate instead of a diploma because of doubts that he'll pass the CAHSEE - he didn't even get to take it the first time he was eligible because of the school's error, not having testing materials for him), and most likely will attend a local community college. He's not big-name-school material. In five years, I'll have paid back the 401(k) loan for his education, and he'll be on his own - if all goes according to plan.

And that's just when younger son will be graduating from high school in '15. So, his education money will be another 401(k) loan taken out as soon as the older kid's loan is paid off. That loan will be repaid in '20, and I'll be looking at a comfortable retirement in about '27.

I wish I could claim that I'd planned it all out this way. But it's just how things look like they'll work out for us.

If the future changes, we'll adapt. I learned that from my own college experiences. I blew my first attempt at college - too immature at 18 to be that far from home and completely responsible for myself. A few years later, I enlisted in the Air Force - this was during the Reagan administration, so there was basically no GI bill, only active duty tuition assistance. I used the he!! out of that, and worked like a maniac to finish my degree in three years while I was serving on active duty. I hope my kids won't have to work that hard, but at least we know what's possible.

"if the kid QUALIFIES for the top-tier schools but is passed over for arbitrary reasons"

... a B average, AP classes and doing decently on the SATs doesn't qualify them for top-tier though. Nowadays, that is an average high school transcript. Unless there is something hugely exceptional about the kid, that's an average student who will most likely go to an average school, not a top-tier one.

AB went to a CSS!

AB went to a CSS!

Posted by: Fred | August 19, 2008 1:30 PM

It shows. It really, really shows.

My grad school expenses were paid for by a government agency. In exchange, I agreed to work for them for three years. There is no way my parents (who have three other daughters) could have afforded to pay that $50,000. Paying my way has helped me have a healthy adult relationship with my parents. They advised me throughout college but were never able to call the shots in my life. I enjoyed the independence. I made many mistakes like we all do but at least they are my very own mistakes. I don't manipulated or victimized by my parents or anyone else for my choices. At one point I resented my parents for not being more helpful. But I realized that they did help me by preparing me for the painful real world. That's why the advice I give young women who plan to get married is this: don't wait to buy that big engagement ring. If you want it save up for it instead of expecting a mysterious prince to make your dreams come true. In life no one -- not parents, not husband, not wife -- can truly rescue you.

I don't think parents should sacrifice their retirement to pay for their kids' college educations but I do think parents bear some responsibility for helping to pay for it. In my family, it is viewed as the last major parental responsibility to your child: making sure they have a good education to go forward in life as a productive member of society. Why would any parent choose to saddle their child with massive amounts of debt right at the beginning of their adult lives?

It shows. It really, really shows.

Posted by: Not a shockr | August 19, 2008 1:33 PM

Correction: shocker. Yes, I see the irony. That's the point.

Why would any parent choose to saddle their child with massive amounts of debt right at the beginning of their adult lives?

Posted by: Little Red | August 19, 2008 1:38 PM

REVENGE!!!

Why would any parent choose to saddle their child with massive amounts of debt right at the beginning of their adult lives?

Posted by: Little Red | August 19, 2008 1:38 PM

REVENGE!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 1:41 PM

Ask Workingmom X !

"It shows. It really, really shows.

Posted by: Not a shockr | August 19, 2008 1:33 PM"

Thank you; I gratefully accept that compliment. Bless your little heart!

Anon, You misunderstand. It's all about choices. The child has to make them as well as the parent. No one forces someone who hasn't shown enough initiative to line up scholarship or other funding to attend a costly school.

If my child worked and sweated and got excellent grades in high school and applied for many scholarships and was rejected by all of them, would I help her? Of course! But that is rarely the situation. Kids are brought up to expect that their parents will take care of everything. They know they won't have to face hard choices or participate actively in planning their educational or financial futures. Some kids have no idea of the sacrifices their parents must make.

My daughter will not even know that we have enough money to pay for her education. I will tell her what my parents told me from childhood: you must pay for college yourself. If she's determined, that won't stop her. It will motivate her to prepare herself academically.

My two kids have finally finished college - my daughter is still in graduate school, but that doesn't cost me anything. Fortunately I was able to pay for their educations (with some welcome help from scholarships), I felt it was important to give them a leg up in life if possible. Doing it meant having a smaller, cheaper house than I could have had, not going on any "real" vacations, and generally living a fairly frugal life - which is pretty much to my liking anyway. My retirement funds are in pretty good shape too. I am far prouder of being able to give them a start without debt than I could ever be about being in a more upscale neighborhood or giving them a new car etc. And fortunately, both of them seem to truly appreciate what they have and what I have sacrificed to give it to them. I think that kids learn from example, and seeing their parent put education above material goods and constantly hearing from me how college is not only valuable but a wonderful time of life to be cherished, and that you should never be in debt but rather save for what you want, seems to have rubbed off. I'm glad, especially as a single parent, to have been able to make this happen.

As noted above, the $6,000 figure does NOT include room and board, or a number of fees. But there are states where it's cheaper.

The CSS I attended as an undergrad - in Louisiana FWIW - charges $1,685 per semester this year for in-state tuition. Add mandatory fees and books (they subsidize if you don't want to keep it) and you're looking at 2K per semester, or 4 kilobucks per year.

Why would any parent choose to saddle their child with massive amounts of debt right at the beginning of their adult lives?

Why would a parents encourage their child to go college that neither could really afford? Unrealistic expectations, simple as that.

Hey, anonymous, I think that's everyone now on the blog that you've lambasted. Why don't you shut the f*ck up for the afternoon? Go kick a puppy or something and get it out of your system. I'm sure you'll be your usual bright and smiling self again tomorrow.

WTF,

In case you never figured it out, there are more than one anon here (and every other blog!)

But my puppy did die last week so I have only you to kick around!

Posted by: Give it up

Your kids are the future, not you! Spend the money on their college first, then worry about your retirement.
______________________________________________________________________________________

Very irresponsible thinking. When I was 16 y.o., my dad let me take two days off at the beginning of summer break before he "asked" me if I wanted a summer job where he worked. I spent the next 5 summers at this same job doing hard work so that I could pay as much as I could of my own college expenses as I could. I've had to work since I was 16 so the savings are MINE! Let the kids take care of their own futures.

"Kids need to learn to work for things they want. "

That is a silly and shallow way of thinking.

I think this was a joke. Irishgirl basically said the same thing you did and was called silly and shallow.

Let the kids take care of their own futures.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 2:07 PM

No bragging rights. Pay attention!

Catherine, It's wonderful that your children appreciate your sacrifices. I have always wondered how single parents are able to accomplish such heroic feats. I don't know if parenting is the hardest job in the world per se, but I think single parenting must be. Bravo to you!

Did your puppy die because you were so nasty and spiteful to it? Was it just trying to get away from you like Working MomX's stepkid?

Did your puppy die because you were so nasty and spiteful to it? Was it just trying to get away from you like Working MomX's stepkid?

Nope, someone yelling profanities ran it over!

As I read all the comments I begin to see that this issue may be more complicated than I thought. Some children will appreciate parental sacrifices and make wise choices while others will not, no matter how much is sacrificed for them. Maybe the approach should depend on the child.

nMaybe the approach should depend on the child.

Posted by: Denkpaard | August 19, 2008 2:32 PM

The scorched-earth approached can have unintended consequences.

For college scholarships - research them online. Fastweb (a website) is a clearinghouse for thousands of them. The tricky part of applying for these scholarships is that kids do this while they are applying to college (applications and essays) as well as taking a full academic load (presumably) So this is a high school senior's new full time job - writing for college applications and scholarships. Writing for scholarships has a smaller success pool, in many cases. Still, it's worth some research and effort, especially if you can find a niche that increase's your future college student's chance of being awarded a scholarship. Presumably this gets better once the college student is accepted into a college and has a geographic location and and academic plan (many scholarships are state-specific, and some require knowing your major). Also once your kid is in college - go see the college's financial aid office, especially for sophomore and later years, and see what they know about scholarships that fit your student. Ideally, the student will seek out this information. One of my kiddos declared a classics minor (she loves Latin) because it was low-hanging fruit and a nice supplement to her presidential scholarship at an out-of-state State U.

Realistically, as some people have alluded to, since 'everyone' seems to think they need to go to college, few people are going into the trades...i.e., electricians, contractors, plumbers, whatever. And those are jobs that don't get moved overseas much.

Poor Gary Glitter. He gets released from a Vietnam prison and no one even cares enough to snark him.

'Cause its not as bad as a Turkish prison!

Posted by: Gary Snark | August 19, 2008 2:34 PM

"And if you get creative, you can open a college account for your spouse, and contribute, and later change the beneficiary to your children. So you could countribute like $7500 per child a year or more, tax free. Needless to say, like most people, I haven't been able to save quite that much."

Hey Cliff. Open a 4th - for you. Now $10,000 per child. :)

As for those saying the parents have no responsibility putting the kids in college - remember, the kids have no responsiblity putting the parents in a good retirement home. :) What goes around, comes around.

As for those saying the parents have no responsibility putting the kids in college - remember, the kids have no responsiblity putting the parents in a good retirement home. :) What goes around, comes around.

Posted by: New poster | August 19, 2008 3:21 PM

There are no guarantees in life.

New poster: My parents did not pay for me or my sisters to go to school but we will never abandon them. Money doesn't buy children's love.

There are no guarantees in life.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 3:26 PM

True. But you can improve the odds.

"What goes around, comes around."

Another myth.

And I'd heard years ago that it was very inexpensive to go to college in Canada, but I guess with the 'new' exchange rates, that's not quite the case anymore...maybe it's still a good deal, though?

We saved money early and got the funds set aside for the kids' college education. We also saved extensivley for retirement.

How?

We bought a less expensive house than we could have afforded (albeit one we like very much). We didn't pay excessive interest payments as a result. When interest rates dropped, we refied at 15 years, not 30.

No fancy cars. Never paid more than the mean price for a new car until I was almost 50 and well set.

No expensive trips when we were younger and could not afford them - lots of local travel that was still fun.

No $5,000 TV's. It's a frickin'TV, fer Chrissakes!

Mowed our own grass. Painted the house ouselves. Did our own home improvement jobs.

NEVER, EVER, RAN A CHARGE CARD BALANCE!

People say a middle class family "can't" save for college and retirement. They are full of it. It's just that people WON'T do what it takes to save. Period.

Shame on them.

People say a middle class family "can't" save for college and retirement. They are full of it. It's just that people WON'T do what it takes to save. Period.

Shame on them.

Posted by: Tom | August 19, 2008 3:59 PM

Cheap basta!

About scholarships: my daughter was a terrific student and got a number of scholarships. First, the private university she attended gave her a merit scholarship which was substantial. She was a National Merit Scholar, although that doesn't get you a lot - about $2K. Helps, but doesn't go that far. What also helped were local scholarships in my town. People should really look into those. There are various memorial scholarships local people endowed, scholarships by different organizations like Elks or Sons of Italy etc, even the local Burger King had a scholarship. Each of these was not necessarily a lot but they all help. Ask through your school's guidance office. Looking around on the internet didn't get us anywhere, although I suppose it couldn't hurt. The bottom line was that the scholarships my daughter got made her private university tuition about the same as my son's public u. tuition (he is an average kind of student, no scholarships). Oh plus my daughter got some scholarships while she was in college, worthwhile looking around for those too - Goldwater scholarship was one. You have to do your homework about these things.

My parents insisted that we each pay for our educations, except for the first semester when we had been genuinely dependent on them for half of the year (under 18). We each had bank accounts from birth, and had to put a portion of our high school earnings towards college. The key to success in this was that they were willing to loan us money (interest free) if we needed it, but it was to be paid back. This held for grad school, too, and while I got through undergrad debt free (paid back whatever I borrowed quickly), I owe a lot money for grad school. It seemed to work, and I did appreciate my education, and was more responsible with money than most of my friends whose parents paid for school.

I'm now an adjunct at a western university. I would rather have better students who might argue their grades, than the ones who can't write research papers in complete sentences!

Finally, some states offer fantastic merit scholarships to students who will stay in-state, at mediocre universities when they could go elsewhere. They're trying to combat the brain drain, I assume.

Cheap basta!

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 4:03 PM

And damn proud of it!

Atlmon,

My last year of university education in 1990 (college is like community college here) cost around 1800 to 2500$ for 8 months of tuition depending on your school. By 1996 it was already 5000$.

I just checked my school and it seems like it is now running over 6000$ per 8 months for Canadians. If you are not Canadian then it will run you more like 20000 for the 8 months just for tuition.

My school was probably about equivalent to Case Western in Ohio so it does seem like a pretty good deal when you look at it that way. of course... all universities are public (at least I think they still are) in Canada.

I'm now an adjunct at a western university. I would rather have better students who might argue their grades, than the ones who can't write research papers in complete sentences!

Yeah because we all know that people who are not rich can't write papers. Really isn't it your job to help these students learn to write?

OK, I know I'm going to get blasted here by people, but I am not going to put anything aside for my son's education (he's nine months old). My feeling is that college has become yet another industry in this country. Not just the campus itself, but things like the financing vehicles that have been created to pay for college. These vehicles are just one more way the financial institutions are scamming people out of their money. How? With fees, interest, penalties, and most of all, they have your money, which they invest to make more money for themselves.

Everybody has been convinced by the financial institutions that they have to buy life insurance (the biggest scam going) and they have to start a college fund. When Junior is ready for college, we'll deal with it then. Until that day, I will stay in possession and control of our money, which rests nicely in waterproof coffee cans buried safely in my back yard. Come on in and try to get it JP Morgan, just try it.

Think outside of the box America. Use your head. You don't have to do what the corporations tell you to.

to the person who asked:

No, it is NOT true that "middle-class kids can't get scholarships anymore, only need-based aid." What a load of crock. If you (or your HS student) are interested, trying Googling "state university merit scholarship". This is not a difficult thing to research!

What ever happened to working your way through school and taking out student loans? I will help my children with college but I am not paying for it all.I think that a little hard work never hurt any kid and it also builds character.

Posted by: Irishgirl | August 19, 2008 8:27 AM

Oh, and your post to Irishgirl had no point, which is probably why she doesn’t know what to say to it.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 19, 2008 12:39 PM

Geez, you are thick. The point is, pointing out fallacies and deficiencies in an argument doesn't mean the writer was made angry by someone else. It means the original post was so easy to critique and dismantle that it took little effort. Taking an issue this complex and dumbing it down to platitudes and one-size-fits-all approaches is stupid and shallow. I hope that's clear enough for your simpleton brain, but I doubt it.

Also stupid and shallow: the concept that somehow parents' approach to your kids' education has one iota to do with how much kids will love you or how they provide for you in your old age. Do what you think is right because it's the right thing to do. If you are looking for a payoff for good parenting, you are setting yourself up for lifelong unhappiness.

Helping your child get a bachelor's degree should be a given for any parent. Not having a degree today is like not having a high school diploma 30 years ago when I was a young person. Parenting requires sacrifice, putting the child ahead of yourself.

Truthmakerer: actually, you aren't completely incorrect (even though what you wrote seems tongue in cheek). It is FASCINATING what is happening RIGHT NOW. Up til now, the universities have been raising tuition, and scholarships/grants/loans have been keeping up - but now private banks, who have been furnishing loans, are NOT able to furnish those loans due to the credit market. Unfortunately, rather than have the universities reap what they sow, the feds are stepping in to give everyone really cheap loans.

I really would have liked to see what the universities were going to do when many of their students couldn't come back to campus given that they couldn't borrow any more money due to the credit markets being what they are. And then would we see the universities taking the risks - i.e., doing the lending? Lowering tuition? What would they do?

As I read all the comments I begin to see that this issue may be more complicated than I thought. Some children will appreciate parental sacrifices and make wise choices while others will not, no matter how much is sacrificed for them. Maybe the approach should depend on the child.

Posted by: Denkpaard | August 19, 2008 2:32 PM

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner for insight of the day. It took until 2:30.

suzy2: actually, if I did that continuously, there wouldn't be any me left. No one should NOT continually put themselves behind the needs of their kids. The parents needs are just as important. If you can't save for college, you can't. If you decide that you don't want to, same thing. A parent owes stuff to kids (food, shelter, clothing), but seriously, you cannot ALWAYS put a child's needs after a parent's. The parent needs to be able to be a human being, so that they can be a better parent. Only martyrs continually put themselves behind others.

Billie: Then, perhaps, it was that they were slightly less than the US *and* you got the 30% discount because of the exchange rate...not so great now, then. I guess it would be less expensive the other way now...

A Goldwater is huge accomplishment, congratulations! That's a recognition for a lot of hard work! Well done!

It is true in the DC area that it is tough to find a good career path without a grad. degree. I was "lucky" in that I went to one of the Seven Sisters, and that my father passed away my sophomore year (my mother having preceded him in college) so that I qualified for independent status. My DBF and future DH agree that we will help our kids with school on the condition that they don't screw around and waste their opportunity and our money. I worked all the way through both degrees, and it did quite frequently make me hesitate to skip classes.

My DBF and future DH agree that we will help our kids with school on the condition that they don't screw around and waste their opportunity and our money. I worked all the way through both degrees, and it did quite frequently make me hesitate to skip classes.

Posted by: canary28 | August 19, 2008 4:56 PM

I worked all the way through and was too exhausted to show up for some of those 8 a.m. classes. YMMV

Even if you always show up for work and for classes, you can still be too tired to do your homework adequately. That's an important part of education too.

Guys, you have to move to the great state of Texas: UT is still one of the great bargains of all time. And yes, normal kids DO get in there, not just top of the top like UVA. It's not a great education system coming up, but get to college, and you have some great options out there in a state school.

NOW: personally, I'm still hoping that my kids aren't college material. If they are, they had better get good with finances now. We're POOR. Considering that I don't expect to see a penny from social security, how am I supposed to pay for this?

But seriously, I'm paying for so much in therapy and services for my autistic sons now, it is absolutely impossible to consider saving for college. I hope that they move out of my house and live independently. Other than that, I really don't have a plan.

OH - and I contributed to school with two jobs and a big bunch of merit-based scholarship money. My father still ended up paying a bundle, and griped about it the whole time. I was a straight-A student, valedictorian of my high school class, 3.999 in college (WITH the two jobs). They still weren't willing to permit me to go out of state, refused to turn over any information to the Feds so that I could get loans, stated that it would be done their way or I could figure out how to hire a lawyer to declare myself independent. Nice.

I paid for an ivy league law school on my own. Top 2% of my class. Everything I make goes into specialized education for my disabled sons. Not sure how I'll pay for their education, or whether that would be the best course. Not everybody is on the same track and there is nothing wrong with that. What one should do is honestly appraise one's children and see what is best for them. ME? I was a student - a really, really good one. My kids? I'm hoping for either trade school or computer programming.

After a job loss a couple of years ago and subsequent catching up (we still haven't really), we're dipping into our retirement to pay for in-state tuition in NYS. Tuition, room and board for the year will be $16,000 and offset by a small scholarship ($1000) and tuition reimbursement ($1000), bringing the cost to about $14,000.

We have a significant amount saved for retirement, and we didn't plan it this way, but it's what needs to be done.

Geez, you are thick. The point is, pointing out fallacies and deficiencies .........

The problem is that you didn't point out any issues with her argument, which wasn't even an argument, but a question and a statement. Let me show you how a real writer takes down a post.

Working while going to college doesn't build character because.........

Kids should not take out student loans because.............................

Lack of hard work creats morons like Uma. This is by far my best example.

Boy I'm really late on these comments but want to shove my perspective in.

I was raised by a single mom, she had NO money to help. She could afford to have me keep living with her and pay basic living expenses as she did while I was in high school, that's it.

I was the first to attend college. No one in my family could help guide me through the process or give me any perspective.

I worked my butt off, got a fabulous full academic scholarship to UMBC (which kicks UMCPs butt when it comes to technology and focus on STUDIES!) and enjoyed a fabulous experience.

I'm honestly shocked no one has brought up community colleges. They really are wonderful assets and perfectly good institutions to get a good start with a lot more flexibility and less financial burden.

I do think parents in the coming generations should take a responsibility to make it at least so that their children CAN get an education beyond the HS diploma. If that means just taking care of their living expenses so they can work and pay for their own classes, so be it.

My parents paid for my college; full freight private school. I am paying for my kids, BUT I have insisted that they go to public college in-state, and while I'm paying for tuition, room and board (if in the dorms), books and fees, I am not paying for incidentals such as beer and movies. I have also made it clear that they take a full load each semester and get passing grades or the parental scholarship stops. And yes, I am refusing to let them fill out loan applications. Why would I want them to take on loan debt which can never be discharged in bankruptcy?

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