"I know that pretty much all of you have had to do the same sort of calculation "

No, Brian. I haven't.

We got rid of our Ford Explorer and bought a new (2008) Mazda5. LOVE IT.

Hey - what's wrong with white?

"Detroit hasn’t exactly showered the parents of America with reasonably sized vehicles designed to hold lots of kids and get OK gas mileage"

Don't you have 2 kids? Is that "a lot"?

Unfortnately, we now own our FOURTH mommy van. You know, the Creepy Van (tm).

Did not want to buy the darn thing but you when take the seat out of the thing, you can put full sheets of plywood or sheetrock in it and close the door compeletely!

I keep hoping it will die but the youngest child will probably total it, he will be driving this school year.

and Brian, you are so right about white color cars, Boring!

After kid #1, we were talking about kid #2. I was looking at our cars. I said to DH: I think I need a new car. He laughed.

So we went away for the weekend in his Passat (love it, by the way). We had one kid, two dogs, and all the stuff needed for said kid (as well as our luggage). We're talking 2 1/2 days and I didn't even bring food with us. The car was PACKED.

So DH said: yeah, I think you need a new car. *sigh*. So I went out to look, and really liked the crossovers (which were relatively new, anyway, so there were like, two of them). So I came back and said to DH: I think we need a minivan. He sighed. I sighed. We relented.

DH doesn't like American cars, and I wanted a mini minivan anyway. So we got the only mini minivan I could find - the Mazda MPV. We got it new cause we couldn't really find a deal on a used one (i.e., only about 5k off from a new one). It only seats 2 in second row, and it is kinda tight with 3 in third row.

One reason was that I really thought it necessary for third row of seats...in case we wanted to bring a friend - and didn't want to have to have two cars. It's so frustrating.

I do like the Mazda 5, though. It is really cute and looks adorable. Maybe our next car.

Toyota Sienna. Seats 8 comfortably; gets decent mileage - 22 city, about 26 on the highway for the first 100K miles.

Cost a lot more than Brian's number - somewhere in the mid 20's IIRC - but we tend to drive cars 200K - 300K miles so it pays off in the long run.

And it serves as the family pickup truck- second Fred's comments about the plywood/sheetrock!

"And it serves as the family pickup truck..."

(not to be snarky, which means, of course, I am being snarky) It was pretty funny to watch all those people with pick up trucks hauling building supplies around in the rain. Or all those tailgates down with 2 by 4's sticking out of the back.

I have a station wagon, purchased 5 years ago when we hadn't yet had a kid. It's worked beautifully with one child. With number 2 on the way, we briefly considered a minivan, but we're going to wait a year or so after the baby's born to decide if we really need it. I have a friend who has no trouble driving her two kids around in a Ford Focus, so I assume a station wagon is up to doing the same job.

I will admit, it'd be nice to have the extra passenger room when family visits, but we figure that if we really, really need a minivan for those twice-yearly occasions, we can rent one.

"It is really cute and looks adorable. Maybe our next car."

atlmom, this is why men make the important decisions.

Story from the other end of life: my mother bought her first minivan at age 65, in order to haul around my father's electric wheelchair. (They put in a lift that didn't require structural changes to the van, so that it could be sold as a low-mileage "unaltered" used vehicle.) Now he's deceased and we're shopping for a new conversion minivan to haul around *her* wheelchair. And those things are expensive! We're looking at north of $30K for a Chrysler with over 50K miles on it. A brand-new conversion minivan is north of $50K!

"It is really cute and looks adorable. Maybe our next car."

atlmom, this is why men make the important decisions.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 8:27 AM

Yeah, like the mid-life crisis Corvette. Ever so practical and economical.

"In Europe and Japan, the streets are filled with all kinds of cars that fit the bill. Here, not so much."

Brian, wake up to the global realities of car manufacturing...the Honda Odyssey is made in Alabama.

:P My DH actually had almost no say in the minivan I got. And he secretly loves it. But he'll tell you he hates minivans.

The mazda 5 is smaller than DHs current car.

I like the minivan (can't believe I'm saying that). The sliding doors are awesome for getting kids in and out of carseats. I can climb in the back, put the carseats on and then climb in the front. Only do that when it's raining.

I said the 'we'll rent one if we need it' too. I said I'd never get a minivan...:)

we have a civic hb & a sienna. i'm a gardener so there are times that i wish we had a pick up. while the civic & sienna both can carry quite a bit of stuff they can't haul mulch or manure.

"I said the 'we'll rent one if we need it' too. I said I'd never get a minivan...:"

I have nothing against minivans. In fact, our next car may well be one. But my current car is only 5 years old and has 50k miles on it. It would be wasteful to replace it at this point for what amounts to a luxury. I'd rather deal with a smaller (but perfectly adequate) car for the next 5-8 years.

"My DH actually had almost no say in the minivan I got."

Atlmom got the butt warmer option to heat up those power panties she likes wearing so much. That's my kind of girl!

We wanted to get a family car (mine was not) that would allow us to drive around with the children and my husband could use it for work. We ended up with a Jeep Patriot.

Our decision making process -
1. It had to be less than 20k.
2. Honey is picky and he had to like the way it looks (so did I but I am less picky)
3. Reviews had to be good.
4. Gas mileage had to be decent(as close to 30 as possible on hwy)
5. It had to be new
6. It couldn't be a sedan but had to have 4 doors.
7. It had to have some decent cargo space.
9. Power window and doors.

It is white and we deliberately picked that colour although I am generally not a fan of white cars. It looked nice in white.

Recently, we also sold my Paseo to the ex because she couldn't get a car loan. I said I would drive it until it died but it was getting close (175k and 12 years old) and it was getting darned inconvenient to us that she didn't have a car. My next car pretty much had the above requirements except my honey caved on the 4 doors. I showed him multiple cars that had the requirements but he liked none of them. We ended up with a little VW Beetle in yellow which more than makes up for the fact that I gave up a car that I wasn't particularly interested in selling. I have purchased my dream car and it is actually fairly kid friendly despite only having 2 doors. Of course... we just have booster seats and the kids can usually buckle themselves in.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Three kids in carseats = Honda Odyssey (silvery green) for us. Went to an auto show when pregnant with #3 and sat in/inspected/interrogated salespeople of all minivan makers currently on the market.

But, my *other* car is a screamin' red Miata.

With 7 people to haul daily our choices were limited. About 2 weeks before delivering the twins we hit all the used car lots test driving minivans. We chose a Dodge Caravan because we could affod it and it handled well. The gas mileage sucks! I just keep holding out hope that there will be a hybrid minivan, that is reasonably priced, at some point in the future.

"Brian, wake up to the global realities of car manufacturing...the Honda Odyssey is made in Alabama."

Any good Boilermaker knows that the Toyota Sienna is made in Princeton, Indiana - used to be made in Georgetown, KY; from what I understand it will soon be partially made at the Subaru plant in Lafayette, IN. It will soon be exported to China (but won't count as a US export for political reasons).

Re: Brian's comment that "In Europe and Japan, the streets are filled with all kinds of cars that fit the bill." - I'd really tend to doubt that, at least based on his price target. Cars tend to cost more in Europe and Japan than they do in the US. Getting a good car for less than 10,000 Euros can be tough.

"Seats at least five comfortably (which meant a third row of seats). So the ubiquitous Subaru wagons were out. Ditto most SUVs and crossovers."

A small station wagon or large SUV is deemed too uncomfortable? What? No knees can be scrunched? No kids' legs can touch? Is it now demeaning to the little Reidettes to have to sit on the hump? Since when did living with a little discomfort on your way to a soccer game become an intolerable event for America's youth?

I can't wait until all these kids who have been taught that they should not have to tolerate being squished in the backseat on the way to a gymnastics meet have to share a dorm room with Jody Who Hasn't Showered In 2 Weeks. Oh, the horror.

Tell a WWII-generation person that your kids simply don't have sufficient room in two rows of an SUV and watch their eyes roll up in the back of their heads at your sense of self-importance and entitlement.

"6. It couldn't be a sedan but had to have 4 doors."

'splain.

And what about each kid "needing" their own bedroom and bathroom? No wonder people feel they need McMansions with mega-mortgages. Share a bedroom and bathroom for pete's sake.

"Brian, wake up to the global realities of car manufacturing...the Honda Odyssey is made in Alabama."

Any good Boilermaker knows that the Toyota Sienna is made in Princeton, Indiana - used to be made in Georgetown, KY; from what I understand it will soon be partially made at the Subaru plant in Lafayette, IN. It will soon be exported to China (but won't count as a US export for political reasons).

Re: Brian's comment that "In Europe and Japan, the streets are filled with all kinds of cars that fit the bill." - I'd really tend to doubt that, at least based on his price target. Cars tend to cost more in Europe and Japan than they do in the US. Getting a good car for less than 10,000 Euros can be tough.

Posted by: ArmyBrat | August 21, 2008 9:08 AM

Geez, AB, starting a little early this morning aren't you? didnt get any last night?

"Since when did living with a little discomfort on your way to a soccer game become an intolerable event?"

Uphil both ways in the snow barefoot alert!

"Geez, AB, starting a little early this morning aren't you? didnt get any last night?"

Oh, plenty. But the US softball team lost the gold medal game, 3-1 to Japan. Add to that the water polo team losing in the last minute, and both 4x100 relay teams dropping the baton in the prelims, and it adds up to not-a-good day for the USA.

Now, do you have anything constructive to add to this blog discussion, or are you just gonna sit there with the cheetos and diet coke all day?

Kill me now - please!

We're looking at minivans too. With the new car seat rules (8 years old and 4ft 9 in before not needing a booster seat, 12 yrs before being in the front seat), my station wagon jump seat is effectively unusable - kids have to be less than 60 lbs each, and no boosters. It means I know about one child I can put in the jump seat, and then I have no cargo space at all.
Add to that fact that the middle of the back row has the baby seat permanently installed, and carpools are out. I can fit 3 kids in my car. I have two, my neighbors have two to go to school. I'll deal with low gas mileage, since I'd be driving half the miles. :)

Since when did living with a little discomfort on your way to a soccer game become an intolerable event for America's youth?

Maybe it is a safety issue? You know, the one seatbelt per child thing?

Ah,yes the good old days, when parents would put 5 kids on one bench seat and 10 kids in the back of a pick up truck. I sure am ready to go back there!

"Kill me now - please!"

With pleasure. Or you could just, you know, go away and quit bothering everybody.

"With 7 people to haul daily our choices were limited."

Momof5 | August 21, 2008 9:01 AM

Jeez, ever hear of birth control before the twins?

We bought a 2008 Honda Odyssey this year, to replace my wife's VW Cabrio. Right now we only have one child and don't always need the extra space. So I am not always thrilled with it. But we are ready to have number two and figure it will fill up quickly. I was very surprised that it handles so well. Not comfortable with parking yet but it has good pick up on the highways. And not embarrassed by being seen it (honest). I am 40 years old now and have to admit it (most times).

I made DH sell his Jeep cherokee and (the horrors!) his british racing green Miata when I was pregnant. In retrospect, I wish we had kept the jeep a few more years - just to save money - I hated it, but I wouldn't have had to drive it, anyway.

He tells everyone he sold it for the #1 reason people sell miatas - his wife is pregnant (that's how he got it).

In any event, one day, we hope to get a convertible again...I just want a cabrio, nothing fancy.

"Maybe it is a safety issue? You know, the one seatbelt per child thing?

Ah,yes the good old days, when parents would put 5 kids on one bench seat and 10 kids in the back of a pick up truck. I sure am ready to go back there!"

Sorry - calling a spade a spade here, bub. By the way, we'll be glad to send you back to any place away from here. Maybe you didn't actually READ the column. There's no lack of seatbelts preventing Brian from putting 5 people in two rows. Not if you can count, that is. Unless your kids are so obese that it takes two seatbelts to belt one of 'em in.

If you reject a Subaru wagon on aesthetic or other grounds - fine. But saying you can't fit 5 kids in a station wagon does indeed reflect the same mentality that says kids are entitled to separate McMansion bedrooms and must have a DVD player in the car in case their little spoiled hearts get bored or their big spoiled parents might have to actually parent them.

Actually, we wanted a car that seated at least six. Meaning we'd need a third row. We found a lot of choices, actually, but many of the third rows were small, and so it would make sense for kids, but the kids were in carseats so they couldn't go back there - now that they're older, we could maybe do something like that - *and* we have only one dog now - but we clearly need no car at the moment. And, as mentioned, I like the mazda 5 ;)

My parents just put us all in the backseat, no questions, no seatbelts. *sigh*

and we most certainly did not want a dvd player. We got one when we went on a big trip, and we only put it in the car when we are going somewhere that is a long trip - no watching stuff while we're on our way to shopping or whatever. :)
We thought long and hard before buying it, too, and that was for a trip where we were easily in the car for 20 hours. We didn't want to do it.

But then I said to DH: hey, the kids are stuck in their carseats - when we were kids, we could stretch out, go in the third (suicide) row and go to sleep, play a game easily, etc. We weren't stuck in the carseat.

"If you reject a Subaru wagon on aesthetic or other grounds - fine. But saying you can't fit 5 kids in a station wagon does indeed reflect the same mentality that says kids are entitled to separate McMansion bedrooms and must have a DVD player in the car in case their little spoiled hearts get bored or their big spoiled parents might have to actually parent them."

Last time I checked, station wagons fit five people only, and that includes the driver. If you believe that it's spoiling kids to give each one his or her own seat belt, then I guess you have a point. But if they're in car seats or you care at all about safety, the realistic limit on number of kids in a station wagon is three (assuming space for both mom and dad). Add carseats into the mix, and you may well be down to two (we've tried to fit three carseats into my car; it can't be done).

But saying you can't fit 5 kids in a station wagon ...

Posted by: anonforthis | August 21, 2008 9:50 AM

There are no bragging rights in a station wagon on the OP. That's why Brian's topic is the Minivan. Pay attention!

(we've tried to fit three carseats into my car; it can't be done).

Posted by: NewSAHM | August 21, 2008 10:01 AM

Could be a clue............

But then I said to DH: hey, the kids are stuck in their carseats - when we were kids, we could stretch out, go in the third (suicide) row and go to sleep, play a game easily, etc. We weren't stuck in the carseat.

Posted by: atlmom | August 21, 2008 10:01 AM

Wow! You and DH have the most scintillating conversations.....

is atlmom married to AB? bc they both are a bunch of windbags.

While we only have 1 child and are quite happy with our PT Cruiser and Honda Accord (although we do have to use 2 cars when the folks come to visit, since the car seat takes up so much of the back seat), we're also hoping something comes a long that gets really good mileage and holds a lot of stuff. While our $ limit isn't as low as yours for purchasing, it's still a long way from the few options that are out there right now.
However, I have to disagree about Japanese and their cars. I've lived in Japan for years (just came back last year), and the average Japanese car is what Americans would call teeny-tiny. The Scion is a good-sized car in Japan. They don't have large families (in fact the current population growth is actually negative), and most people have either no parking space or only one- a very, very small one. Added to very small roads and extremely high gas prices, most Japanese cars are tiny. While they do sell some minivans, they are far and away unusual to see on the road- and just forget the SUV. Most Japanese drive small sedans and small boxy cars like the Scion and the Nissan Cube (one of the most popular family cars there).

But saying you can't fit 5 kids in a station wagon does indeed reflect the same mentality that says kids are entitled to separate McMansion bedrooms

I guess you have never driven more than 2 kids more than 2 miles at one time. (Do you even have any?) Having kids cooped up in close quarters for any length of time can lead to squeamish behavior. The kind that can distract the driver.

Your analogy that packing kids into a small space in a car is the same as sharing a bedroom or bathroom is simply bogus.

While we only have 1 child and are quite happy with our PT Cruiser and Honda Accord (although we do have to use 2 cars when the folks come to visit, since the car seat takes up so much of the back seat), we're also hoping something comes a long that gets really good mileage and holds a lot of stuff. While our $ limit isn't as low as yours for purchasing, it's still a long way from the few options that are out there right now.
However, I have to disagree about Japanese and their cars. I've lived in Japan for years (just came back last year), and the average Japanese car is what Americans would call teeny-tiny. The Scion is a good-sized car in Japan. They don't have large families (in fact the current population growth is actually negative), and most people have either no parking space or only one- a very, very small one. Added to very small roads and extremely high gas prices, most Japanese cars are tiny. While they do sell some minivans, they are far and away unusual to see on the road- and just forget the SUV. Most Japanese drive small sedans and small boxy cars like the Scion and the Nissan Cube (one of the most popular family cars there).

Posted by: Tiffany | August 21, 2008 10:17 AM

Thanks for actually providing some useful commentary. Its nice to read, instead of having to scroll down AB's typical blowhard comments.

"6. It couldn't be a sedan but had to have 4 doors."

My husband wanted 4 doors - more specifically a sedan - because of the kids. I didn't want a sedan because of the lack of flexibility in carrying larger things. I really wanted a hatchback but many hatchback type models have only 2 doors (like the Yaris) or inadequate cargo space(AVEO) even with the seats down. We compromised on the mini SUV mainly because it had 4 doors and was more flexible for carrying larger items.

"Having kids cooped up in close quarters for any length of time can lead to squeamish behavior"

Oh, no. Not that!!

Oh, no. Not that!!

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 10:27 AM

OK, I will come right out and say it bluntly. Kids fighting in the car.

"Mommy, he is looking at me!"

"Daddy, she is breathing the same air as me!"

Mommy, Daddy, he/she/it is hitting me.

I will admit that my kids are NOT perfect (some of the time.)

And that's a fact, Jack!

I had the Mazda 5 as my last rental. I thought it was great. Everyone says minivans "drive like cars" but that usually means "big, heavy six cylinder cars." The Mazda 5 drives much more like a light, agile four cylinder.

I agree with the line of thinking that "A station wagon is fine for a family of five with three kids in the backseat, kids don't need their own McMansion bedrooms/bathrooms, etc..." But the problem is that argument falls apart when you introduce the behemoth car seats into the back seat. Then, two across really becomes your limit.

At this point there is obviously an open market niche for Britax or Graco to develop slimmer car seats that will fit three across in let's say your typical Camry or Accord.

Until that day, I think the Mazda 5 is one of the best solutions.

In other words, if you don't have so many kids that a sedan is no longer large enough to hold your entire family at the same time, then you're not a REAL parent?

Yup!

(clever initials, go live in China.)

OK, I will come right out and say it bluntly. Kids fighting in the car.

"Mommy, he is looking at me!"

"Daddy, she is breathing the same air as me!"

Mommy, Daddy, he/she/it is hitting me.

I will admit that my kids are NOT perfect (some of the time.)

And that's a fact, Jack!

Posted by: to anon @ 10.27 | August 21, 2008 10:38 AM

YOU raised these kids to behave this way...pay the consequences.

My proof of being a parent is the short person who lives at my house and calls me mommy. Her 9 month residence within my body was sufficient to notify me that parenthood was about to commence. I did not have to purchase a car to understand that concept.
I will never drive a minivan.

I'm perfectly fine with my Lexus SUV. Two parents in front, a kid and/or a couple of his friends (all boys) on the back seat. The gear in the wayback. Nobody whines, and if they get loud I blast hard rock through the Bose system to drown the noise. No "hump" to seat on, though they still object against the middle seat, but sort it out between themselves. Never noticed them complaining about "touching or breathing", more like bopping each other on the head, but then again, I'm not the one to give a damn. In old times we used to have a Kia, and still did not have a problem getting the little ones in, just whistle and they come. It's all about where you are going. We are not doing soccer runs, more like armament museum and such.

YOU raised these kids to behave this way...pay the consequences.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 10:48 AM

You are such an A$$ or just in denial that kids will sometimes tease each other and fight no matter how they are raised.

"I'm perfectly fine with my Lexus"

Well, I won't ever be seen being so arrogant!

You are such an A$$ or just in denial that kids will sometimes tease each other and fight no matter how they are raised.

Posted by: from 10:38 | August 21, 2008 11:00 AM

Enough to influence the choice of a vehicle? Who's in charge????

In the streets of Europe, I saw hundreds of tiny two-seater Peugeots. And the Japanese are famous for their efficiency and, especially in Tokyo, small sizes. I'm with you on the gas mileage, though.

Toyota Sienna. We can fit everyone we need. Good gas mileage. Reliable.

The comments on this blog continue to upset me. Everyone is so mean to each other it brings me to tears. Why does there have to be such hatred - we're talking about cars and vans! There's no reason to tear each other apart. My husband says its just to relieve stress, but all this fighting on this blog makes me cry.

Who needs a minivan (or SUV) for only two kids? We didn't get one until we had our fifth child.

Sedans have it all over wagons, vans and SUVs in one respect: they have a trunk that can insulate the parents from the worst behaving kid. The parents can discipline the worst behaving child by playing the game of Beirut Hostage. Duct tape the little criminal and toss him in the trunk for the next hundred miles.

Why does there have to be such hatred - we're talking about cars and vans!

Posted by: Nancy | August 21, 2008 11:17 AM

Shallow subjects trigger shallow comments.

We bought a car last year not a minivan. We can fit our family of three and my parents when they come to visit.

DD has her own bedroom but not her own bathroom. DH and I decided he would share with a boy and I would with a girl mostly for the bath tub which DD and I both use.

Enough to influence the choice of a vehicle? Who's in charge????

If my choice of vehicle includes a strategy to eliminate a source of potential conflict by providing space, I guess I am just guilty of Prophylactic Parenting. With that I will let you have the last word, I am sure that you will take it.

Who needs a minivan (or SUV) for only two kids? We didn't get one until we had our fifth child.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 11:21 AM

Did your drug store run out of birth control?

If this blog makes you cry, the solution is so simple: just don't read it!

To Anonymous:

I have 5 children as well. We used a Ford Taures until it broke down, and now use our GMAC Yukon.

We didn't need birth control b/c we have polite, charming children who only make helpful, interesting comments. So they are a joy to have around. We hope to have more.

Did you know that driving minivans is the leading cause or erectile dysfunction among suburban males?

There have been several mentions of kids not needing separate bedrooms. I presume you mean kids of the same gender. I have a step-daughter and a step-son that use bunk beds and share the same bedroom. At what point should we be concerned that they don't have their own bedroom?

Our place is even worse as we just have a one bedroom (bought before I met my husband) and the kids share the pull-out couch when they sleep over.

Did you know that driving minivans is the leading cause or erectile dysfunction among suburban males?

Posted by: NHTSA | August 21, 2008 11:51 AM

And fat a$ses among suburban mothers & kids?

Did you know that driving minivans is the leading cause or erectile dysfunction dysfunction among suburban males?
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Did you know that improper grammar is the leading cause of being viewed as stupid by educated people?

contrary to many posters comments, 3 car seats will not fit in the back seat of a Subaru wagon.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Cool...

Our three kids are under the age of 4 (yes, we've heard of birth control and used it until we decided to have kids, and chose to have three kids, okay? settle down, Beavis.) and our primary reason for purchasing the Honda Odyssey is the government requirement for carseats. Carseats are HUGE and take up so much room. Guess that we didn't want to pull a Britney, so we're seating our kids in carseats until the age of 8/height of 4'-9".

Once the kids are beyond the carseat/booster seat requirements, they'll be seated in the back of our Honda Accord, three across (with squishing, natch).

Oh, and all three of them share a room now, too. PPPbbbbtttthhh!

"In Europe and Japan, the streets are filled with all kinds of cars that fit the bill."

I hate this inaccurate stereotype, and it seems everyone is spouting it. It is NOT true. If you have been on a highways in Europe or Asia, then you know full well why cars in those countries get such excellent gas mileage: because they are tiny little tin cans!!! In Europe in particular, where many cities date from medieval times and the streets are narrow and busy, a normal American car literally would not fit!! The cars are smaller and lighter ... you *cannot* find something the size of a typical American car with that kind of gas mileage.

contrary to many posters comments, 3 car seats will not fit in the back seat of a Subaru wagon.

Posted by: drmommy | August 21, 2008 12:04 PM

Um, that's the point. Why 3 car seats?

The minivan is not a cause of erectile disfunction in our family, but the cause of vasectomy.

"Um, that's the point. Why 3 car seats?"

Because children should be in car seats or booster seats until around the age of 8. If you have 3 kids, chances are they were probably born within a decade of each other.

"Did you know that improper grammar is the leading cause of being viewed as stupid by educated people?"

Did you know that the Grammar Sheriff can't get it up without his inflatable doll?

If you have 3 kids, chances are they were probably born within a decade of each other.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 12:13 PM

Why would anyone have 3 bio kids??

Hey Anonymous - why not? and, what if they weren't biological? were you unloved or not breast-fed as a child?

"contrary to many posters comments, 3 car seats will not fit in the back seat of a Subaru wagon."

Correct.

And if you Massengills took the time and trouble to review the archives of Warren Brown's Real Wheels discussions instead of hosing each other with vinegar and water, you'd be a lot more knowledgeable about which vehicle is right for which family's transportation needs.

"Why would anyone have 3 bio kids??"

to make the world a better place to live for everybody.

"Why would anyone have 3 bio kids??"

Because this blog is called "On Parenting" and is therefore targeted at an audience that presumably likes children.

seriously, why do all male swimmers look goofy to me. Some of my best friends were swimmers in high school, and they are amongst some of the oddest looking people I know. Of course them they strip down to the speedos and the girls go ga-ga over them.

"Why would anyone have 3 bio kids??"

to make the world a better place to live for everybody.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 12:20 PM

Popping out babies does that?? Wow!

If this blog makes you cry, the solution is so simple: just don't read it!

Posted by: to Nancy | August 21, 2008 11:42 AM

Now that is uncalled for. I like reading this blog, except for when mean posts like yours make me upset. I am going to tell my husband about this and you better be scared.

How is it that all of us over the age of 40 grew up without minivans? There were 5 kids in my family. The neighbors all had 4 to 6 kids, the aunts and uncles all had 3 to 6 kids and NONE of us had anything bigger then a station wagon.
If you have an SUV or a van you are wasting gas, increasing our dependence on foreign oil, and ruining the future for your kids.

To NHTSA,

Here is the sentence that you wish you could have written:

Did you know that driving minivans is the leading cause of erectile dysfunction among suburban males?

Note the lack of duplication of words and writing what you apparently meant "of erectile" rather than "or erectile."

And my cupie doll is just fine, thanks for asking.

"How is it that all of us over the age of 40 grew up without minivans? There were 5 kids in my family. The neighbors all had 4 to 6 kids, the aunts and uncles all had 3 to 6 kids and NONE of us had anything bigger then a station wagon.
If you have an SUV or a van you are wasting gas, increasing our dependence on foreign oil, and ruining the future for your kids. "

Shut up you enviro blowhard. Those station wagons got 8 mpg and were huge polluters. God, i hate these holier than thou tree huggers.

Brian lost his balls a long time ago. The minivan was just the icing on the cake.

"If you have an SUV or a van you are wasting gas, increasing our dependence on foreign oil, and ruining the future for your kids."

It's not foreign oil anymore. Bush took care of that.

It is kind of unfair, in other ways, to compare the US to Europe and Japan. Those societies for the most part grew up without an automobile - which means that the cities grew up without them...So most people can get around those cities without cars.

Here in the US we have decided that no matter how ridiculous it is, we would like to drive around in our own vehicles, spend billions on roads, and the world be da**ed. We want our own cars (I'm speaking generically, as, in, if I never have to drive a car again, I would be extremely happy). So we in the US have decided not to fund mass transit in the way those other countries have, so we are stuck living in our cars. So comparing the two societies is ridiculous.

Now that China is growing up, apparently, they are busy building roads all over the place, and in 20 or 40 years, they will see the fallacy in that.

Why is it that everyone feels they have to have HUGE vehicles and they can't go anywhere without half a household of stuff with them? We have 2 kids. We drive two sedans -- Honda Accord and Volvo. We go on week long driving vacations that require us bringing linens & towels, etc, yet we all fit in the car just fine. I don't understand this constant need for space and acquiring STUFF!

Someone asked why you didn't need a minivan if you grew up over the age of 40? Because you could sit in the front seat when you were smaller and you didn't need a booster seat until you were 8. I am just now hitting my 40s and we sat in the front seat before we were even 10 years old. We could also sit 3 to the back seat in our Gremlin when we were little because the rules didn't require booster seats.

I think I also remember seat belts being optional if you were in the middle seat and I definitely remember a trip to Toronto where my cousins and I sat/played in the cargo area of our grandparent's van while we traveled. None of these are an option these days which requires vehicles with the same amount of seatbelts as people.

And, hello, my mom drove a two door car, and drove carpool with four or five 2 YOs with NO CARSEATS. *That's* how it was done when we grew up. She just threw the kids in the backseat and went off. Knowing how she drove, it's a wonder how we all survived.

Love my '00 Sienna. I plan to drive it until it's got 200K on it. I don't get the aversion to the minivan as an art form, but whatever. It's the most practical car for our family of 5 (plus others who join us). Travel is easy, carpool is easy, and the mileage is decent.

Also, as Fred pointed out, you can haul stuff in it -- as long as you clean it afterward! My husband bought wonderboard or whatever it's called that goes under tile in the bath, and what a mess!

Jack: we didn't need the minivan necessarily for everyday (altho it's nice to have them up, and also nice to have those automatic sliding doors). We needed it in case we (g** forbid) went away for a night or a weekend (or longer). With two kids and two dogs (50 ish pounds) and then you have a stroller, and a baby backpack, and a pack and play, and then our stuff (like clothes), it gets a little crowded in a small sedan. Now that we have less stuff (only the stroller) maybe we didn't need it.

But goodness knows when we went away with our au pair, it was important to have a seat with her.

Or when a friend drove us to the airport - couldn't have done that without the extra seating.

Why is it that everyone feels they have to have HUGE vehicles and they can't go anywhere without half a household of stuff with them? We have 2 kids. We drive two sedans -- Honda Accord and Volvo. We go on week long driving vacations that require us bringing linens & towels, etc, yet we all fit in the car just fine. I don't understand this constant need for space and acquiring STUFF!

clap, clap, clap. You are wonderful really. why do you need linens and towels?

I don't understand this constant need for space and acquiring STUFF!

Posted by: Jack | August 21, 2008 12:42 PM

Bragging rights. Pay attention!

Why do we linens and towels??????

fr dw:

>If you have an SUV or a van you are wasting gas, increasing our dependence on foreign oil, and ruining the future for your kids.

The last time I flew to MI to see family, I got to the airport and found that the only vehicle available was a minivan, at the price I had been quoted for a midsize car. It wasn't bad, for a few days.

But goodness knows when we went away with our au pair, it was important to have a seat with her.

Or when a friend drove us to the airport - couldn't have done that without the extra seating.

Posted by: atlmom | August 21, 2008 12:53 PM

Classic MM crap. Skip the au pair and take a taxi, for Pete's sake!

Grammar Sheriff, your cupie doll has asked me to enquire when you intend to clean the encrusted spooge off her. This is not an "or/of" question.

"Did you know that driving minivans is the leading cause or erectile dysfunction among suburban males?"

Maybe if you have enough children to fill a minivan, you should be grateful for your future inability to reproduce. Just sayin'.

"Seats at least five comfortably (which meant a third row of seats). "

It's not five kids, it's five people - which last I checked includes the driver. Carm down.

Col Kurtz on Minivans,

"The horror, the horror!"

"Seats at least five comfortably (which meant a third row of seats). "

It's not five kids, it's five people - which last I checked includes the driver. Carm down.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 1:14 PM

Brian, the missus, and two kids = 4 people. Who is the Fifth Man?

I guess you have never driven more than 2 kids more than 2 miles at one time. (Do you even have any?) Having kids cooped up in close quarters for any length of time can lead to squeamish behavior. The kind that can distract the driver.

Your analogy that packing kids into a small space in a car is the same as sharing a bedroom or bathroom is simply bogus.

Posted by: to anonforthis | August 21, 2008 10:23 AM

Sorry, you're an idiot. If your solution to your kids' problem behavior is to buy a bigger vehicle rather than addressing your parenting problems, you represent all that is wrong with this Gen Xrs who reproduce.

Solve the real problem -- your kids' unsafe behavior -- instead of spending gobs of money on too-big, emasculating, poorly engineered vehicles and then whining that you just have to have all that space for little Courtney and Basil.

Has it crossed your mind that it's absurd that non-Latino American families are getting smaller and smaller and yet purchasers are getting increasingly desperate and shrill as they rationalize the purchase of larger and larger vehicles?

Signed,

A mom with 3 kids between 5 and 13 who know how to share the backseat of an affordable sedan

Jeep Commander - its safe, reliable, within my budget, can fit the car seat and all my stuff I may have to haul, and its fun too - so thats a bonus.

"But goodness knows when we went away with our au pair, it was important to have a seat with her."

Sweet Jesus. May I have some gorgonzola to go with that entitled whine?

"enquire"

That would be "inquire", sport.

(Unless you are British.)

We didn't need birth control b/c we have polite, charming children who only make helpful, interesting comments. So they are a joy to have around. We hope to have more.

Posted by: Suzette | August 21, 2008 11:46 AM

Rest assured, if you aren't using birth control, you'll have more.

"enquire"

That would be "inquire", sport.

(Unless you are British.)

Posted by: Grammar Sheriff | August 21, 2008 1:25 PM

Gay, gay, gay.

What's teh word on the ford Flex crossover? I LOVE the sunroofs! we have two little kids and make do with the Honda CRV but it is too tight in the back for anyone but a child or the skinny adult-- and that works only for a short trip.

If we trade in, should be get a minivan with sliding side doors, or the Flex? thanks for any advice!

When our family group is watching the Oly's, whenever the Mom is shown on the screen we all yell out in unison "There's Mama!" in our best down home accents.

A mom with 3 kids between 5 and 13 who know how to share the backseat of an affordable sedan
=====================================================

Will you be giving parenting lessons to us less than perfect parents anytime soon?

A mom with 3 kids between 5 and 13 who know how to share the backseat of an affordable sedan
=====================================================

Will you be giving parenting lessons to us less than perfect parents anytime soon?

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 1:38 PM

The mom just did....

Not sure why so many of you don't understand the problem with 3 kids in the back seat of most vehicles. It's not that the children are ill-behaved, it's that the #$%&&* car seats don't fit! Even now that DSs are in booster seats, the back seat of my car is really too narrow to fit three across. So, if I need to transport DSs plus 1 friend, I have to squash in the booster seats, pre-buckle them as each goes in, then slide the kids in UNDER the seat belts. This doesn't always work depending upon which car seat the friend has. Here in VA, kids have to be in car seats until they're 8. So I'm looking at at least another 2 years of this fiasco. Unfortunately, my 2002 car has 92K miles on it and there's not much point in getting a new one until we drive this one into the ground.

Didn't Brian recently move? Why did he chose to live in a neighborhood where he would "need" to buy a minivan?

Didn't Brian recently move? Why did he chose to live in a neighborhood where he would "need" to buy a minivan?

Posted by: Really confused | August 21, 2008 1:52 PM

So he COULD buy a minivan!

Just had to say - us too! We so wanted a car that could hold all the kids (that's three for us) and the dog and got decent gas mileage. We had to drop the last requirement, although an average of 20.5 mpg isn't too terrible. We absolutely love our minivan, but wish there had been a minivan hybrid option. Maybe by the next car...

Even now that DSs are in booster seats, the back seat of my car is really too narrow to fit three across.

Posted by: two terrific boys | August 21, 2008 1:51 PM

Car seats/booster seats take up space. Wow!
How many babies did you pop out before you figured this out?

"Here in VA, kids have to be in car seats until they're 8."

Not really. If you get pulled over, the cop isn't going to ask your child for an id.

"Didn't Brian recently move? Why did he chose to live in a neighborhood where he would "need" to buy a minivan?"

Because that's the only kind of neighborhood they HAVE in Champaign, IL.

What we have here is a Mean Mommy Marathon!

Again, can you all please STOPE it? all this negativity brings me to tears!

"Didn't Brian recently move? Why did he chose to live in a neighborhood where he would "need" to buy a minivan?"

Because that's the only kind of neighborhood they HAVE in Champaign, IL.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 2:04 PM

In a college town?? Weird.
Brian & his wife knew or should have known this before the wife accepted the position. It's a choice, it's always a choice.

"In a college town?? Weird. Brian & his wife knew or should have known this before the wife accepted the position. It's a choice, it's always a choice."

Not weird at all - you ever been in a college town like that? He doesn't get to live in a dorm or in married student housing, you know.

It's not a choice - it's a trade-off. The good news is you get the dream job; the bad new is you buy a minivan. Is it worth it? Life's not perfect; life has never been perfect; life will never be perfect. You focus on the big things and deal with the little things.

"A mom with 3 kids between 5 and 13 who know how to share the backseat of an affordable sedan"

"Affordable" as in 1993 saturn with no air conditioning and missing taillight, praying it lasts another year.

really, the trolls and other bullies in the parenting and other discussions are seriously detracting from what are otherwise -usually- interesting and informative discussions. Disagreements are one thing. But, the name calling, nasty comments, rudeness, etc. are continuing to be tolerated. Please do something about it.

And to those who say that I should go elsewhere, I shouldn't have to. I'm genuinely interested in the issues in this blog. You're just trying to stir up trouble. And, anonymously at that.

Just so sick of it.

Yes it is always a choice. And car companies could choose to produce fuel efficient people movers. Or is there something about sliding doors that makes fuel efficiency impossible? If so, I'd like to hear that argument.

In the meanwhile, many of us will choose to let the manufacturers know that we aren't satisifed with the current options on the market.

It is indeed always a choice.

now, getting back to the Ford Flex-- has anyone tested it out?

"the trolls and other bullies in the parenting and other discussions are seriously detracting from what are otherwise -usually- interesting and informative
discussions."

Oh really? When was the last time there was an "interesting and informative" discussion on this blog?

But, the name calling, nasty comments, rudeness, etc. are continuing to be tolerated. Please do something about it.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!The WAPO? BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! Do something? BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!
That's rich!!!

now, getting back to the Ford Flex-- has anyone tested it out?

Posted by: capitol hill | August 21, 2008 2:27 PM

Check out Warren Brown's column. He did mention that he liked it (last week or maybe before.)

I have only looked at one and it can be quite the people hauler who those who don't like "Creepy Vans".

"Here in VA, kids have to be in car seats until they're 8."

"Not really. If you get pulled over, the cop isn't going to ask your child for an id."

Don't know what kind of lazy cops you have around your neighborhood, but here in NoVa, they'll ticket you on a car seat violation so fast your head will spin. Additionally, VA's car seat law is a primary enforcement law - no other violation need be committed prior to ticketing for failure to have a child correctly buckled up.

I'm jealous you found a used 5! Here they're impossible to track down. That's a car/van we're considering.

Shandra,

I have a slightly used (183,000 miles) Creepy Van I will sell you!

FYI - Britax does make a booster that is adjustable width. It makes fitting 3 boosters or boosters and car seats in the back much easier. Just won't work for fat kids!

"Here in VA, kids have to be in car seats until they're 8."

"Not really. If you get pulled over, the cop isn't going to ask your child for an id."

Is someone actually suggesting that parents should opt for a smaller vehicle which would force children to ride unsafely (i.e., not in required booster seats) instead of a minivan where the children could travel safely in whatever seats are age-appropriate?

Risk to reward ratio, anyone?

Our Sienna's nearly eight years old, but we still love it - most of the time. This morning being a notable exception. It wouldn't start, and because it's street-sweeping day, it got ticketed.

It's our third Toyota, and we still have the second one, an '88 Celica 2dr hatchback, that was the "family car" before the minivan. I still love driving the Celica, but DH prefers the minivan.

We bought the Sienna because older son, then age 9, was bumping his head or having to slump in the back seat of a hatchback. Slumping over onto little brother in his car seat was becoming a constant source of friction and distraction to the driver, and we were spending more time pulled over on the side of the road dealing with that, than actually driving wherever-it-was we needed to go.

I can haul garden-stuff - last project included 10-ft 2x4s for a new backyard fence. We can wrangle all the camping gear inside (I grew up in/around national forests so all I need is a sleeping bag, but DH is a city-boy and needs a *lot* more gear), or the PA, speakers, amps, and instruments for DH and a band. The boys can have friends along when we go places.

When we went on our "look for America" five week roadtrip back in '05 we could have slept in the minivan if necessary. We get about 20-22 mpg on the highway, and 18-19 in town. We expect to keep driving it until the wheels fall off, or until there's a hybrid or electric minivan available that will cost less to drive.

"Don't know what kind of lazy cops you have around your neighborhood, but here in NoVa, they'll ticket you on a car seat violation so fast your head will
spin."

I grew up in NOVA, the cop capital of the world. That's why I bought the minivan with tinted windows.

Moxiemom,

Which Britax is that? DSs are currently in the Parkway, which they love, but it might be worth upgrading if the width adjustment is substantial enough. How easy is it to adjust?

thanks Fred!

"I am now officially a parent. The proof is sitting in my driveway."

This is so sorry he should be ashamed. When the proof of your status is a possession and not a child, maybe you should not have had children.

"The ex ran off with all the money and left you with the kids and the Cavalier, huh?"

Posted by: to A mom with 3 kids between 5 and 13 who know how to share the backseat of an affordable sedan | August 21, 2008 1:52 PM

Not exactly, LOL. It's an '04 Audi, and no one questions my taste in cars like they do those in minivans.

"Is someone actually suggesting that parents should opt for a smaller vehicle which would force children to ride unsafely (i.e., not in required booster seats) instead of a minivan where the children could travel safely in whatever seats are age-appropriate?"

Posted by: WorkingMomX | August 21, 2008 2:56 PM

People are suggesting that if you have 2 kids, claiming you need enough space to cart the entire village around is just an excuse for driving a vehicle larger than you need - no matter how vociferously you shriek your rationalizations.

If you adopt triplet infants from Guatemala, you may need a minivan. If you have a 2 year old and a 7 year old and are claiming you need a minivan in order to drive 8 miles to grandma's tomorrow night, you are not being honest with yourself.

Kenneth,
I read your story about the closeted actor who raped a former boyfriend. All of the names listed were wrong, it was actually Will Smith. You and Page 6 were wrong about some of the other details as well. The former boyfriend did report Will to the Lost Hills Sherrifs Department. The payoff was done to keep him from pressing charges. The charges were indeed dropped. The former boyfriend also needed surgery because his anus had a small split called a fisure after the incident.

To set the record straight, it wasn't rape, it was more of rough play that the two played on many occasions. It got out of hand and Will didn't stop. He's not a rapist but he and his wife both live a life filled with lies. They don't have sex with each other or in thier home. They live in Hidden Hills but they have a seperate home in nearby Agoura Hills just for sex with others. If this world were more accepting of gay people, I think Will and Jada would be living happy, honest lives with other people. On a final note, I was one of Will's boyfriends for a while. I think we all get a max of 4 months and then he moves on.
source: http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2008/08/in-box.html

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 3:10 PM

Thats what happened to Donna. Her ex ran off with her brother. They're getting married in California. Thats why Donna never posts anymore.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 2:02 PM

Now if only Cecelia's and Nancy's husbands would run off with each other (or with other guys), we'll have hit the trifecta!

Not exactly, LOL. It's an '04 Audi, and no one questions my taste in cars like they do those in minivans.

Ohhhhhhh. Live your life by what other people think? To quote some poster here "When the proof of your status is a possession..."

EPA ratings

08 Dodge Caravan 17/24 combined avg 19 on REGULAR Gas

04 Audi 18/26 combined avg 21 on PREMIUM gas

Nothing better for the enviroment than sucking up that EXPENSIVE premium gasoline.

fr anonymous 1:22 pm:

>...i'm sure you hubby LOVES travelling with the au pair. i bet they take lots of special trips, just the two of them. and NOT in a minivan. hahahahaaha.

And YOU know this for a FACT how, brainiac???? Lots of people use au pairs. Grow UP and act your age, not your shoe size.

That 1993 Saturn?

21/30 combined 24 on regular gas

Kenneth,
I read your story about the closeted actor who raped a former boyfriend. All of the names listed were wrong, it was actually Will Smith. You and Page 6 were wrong about some of the other details as well. The former boyfriend did report Will to the Lost Hills Sherrifs Department. The payoff was done to keep him from pressing charges. The charges were indeed dropped. The former boyfriend also needed surgery because his anus had a small split called a fisure after the incident.

To set the record straight, it wasn't rape, it was more of rough play that the two played on many occasions. It got out of hand and Will didn't stop. He's not a rapist but he and his wife both live a life filled with lies. They don't have sex with each other or in thier home. They live in Hidden Hills but they have a seperate home in nearby Agoura Hills just for sex with others. If this world were more accepting of gay people, I think Will and Jada would be living happy, honest lives with other people. On a final note, I was one of Will's boyfriends for a while. I think we all get a max of 4 months and then he moves on.
source: http://www.kennethinthe212.com/2008/08/in-box.html

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 3:10 PM

People are suggesting that if you have 2 kids, claiming you need enough space to cart the entire village around is just an excuse for driving a vehicle larger than you need - no matter how vociferously you shriek your rationalizations.

Okay, so we should use 2 cars to pick 3 children up after school, all of whom are coming to my house to play? That's just stupid. What about all those car pools to after school activities - soccer, ballet, etc.? Should we have two parents driving two cars to get three total kids to the events? This isn't rationalization, it's real life.

"Nothing better for the enviroment [sic] than sucking up that EXPENSIVE premium gasoline."

Only an idiot would buy a car as a statement pandering to the whims of the green people.

"enquire"

That would be "inquire", sport.

(Unless you are British.)

Posted by: Grammar Sheriff | August 21, 2008 1:25 PM
-------------------------------------------
BRRRAPPP!!! Incorrect, Sheriff.

My American Heritage Dictionary lists both forms of the word without any indication of which variant is preferred.

I suppose the "inquire" is preferred by the PG Sheriff's SWAT Team. You know, the keystone cops who shoot first and ask questions later.

While we're on the subject of shooting, your cupie doll wants you to clean up that white stuff you shot all over her.

Ahh, Anon @1:31, you seem to have mistaken me for your estranged father.

"Okay, so we should use 2 cars to pick 3 children up after school, all of whom are coming to my house to play? That's just stupid. What about all those car pools to after school activities - soccer, ballet, etc.? Should we have two parents driving two cars to get three total kids to the events? This isn't rationalization, it's real life. "

Don't bring up facts or real life situations, the enviro nuts hate that, it makes the kool aid they have been drinking wear off and forces them to live in the real world.

Duh, two terrific boys, you tie them to the roof rack. Or you use bungie cords to strap them to the hood. You may get a ticket, they may be injured or killed but at least you won't have a planet killing, testacle-slicing minivan (like me). Much better that you not be able to carpool. You and whoever else is driving to exactly the same place can sit one behind the other in the non-HOV lane and do the bumper-to-bumper stew while the fool with the full minivan smiles and waves.

Also, getonoveryourselves, I have three children, two of whom are still in car or booster seats, one of whom is in college. She is a slender young woman, granted, but not so much that she can fit comfortably between the two kids in the back of a Passat. And while I, too, survived discomfort in long car rides as a child, crammed into a VW with my two fidgety sisters, I don't feel like doing it to my kids. So sue me and make me start buying carbon credits.

"Nothing better for the enviroment [sic] than sucking up that EXPENSIVE premium gasoline."

Only an idiot would buy a car as a statement pandering to the whims of the green people.

Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 3:42 PM

I am just pandering to my pocketbook by buying a car that runs on regular.

I do hope you feel better tomorrow!

Attention Troll@2:34. I found the set of buttocks you laughed off. Your head seems to be wedged between the cheeks.

enquire
One entry found.

enquire

Main Entry:en·quire , en·qui·ry
Pronunciation:\in-ˈkwī(-ə)r\\ˈin-ˌkwī(-ə)r-ē, in-ˈ; ˈin-kwə-rē, ˈiŋ-\
chiefly British variant of inquire, inquiry

momtotwoterrific, i'm going to have the check the seat, I forget what it's called. It's pretty easy to adujust, but we keep it on the narrow setting all the time. If I don't get to it today ask me another day. I"ve got a house full of kids and dinner to fix.

"Merrian Webster Dictionary"

Excuse me, Sheriff -- if this is the Grammar Sheriff who busted me for the typo "or" instead of "of -- it's spelled
M-e-r-r-i-a-m

Next time, use a better dictionary, lest you appear to be a used bottle of Summer's Eve.

The booster is the Britax Starriser Comfy - at its smallest setting it is 13 and 1/4 compared to the Graco ones that everyone gets at Target at about 18 and some inches. It also converts to a backless booster and/or can fold flat for transport. Good luck.

apparently the starriser is on sale now for $59 at www.babyage.com/products/e900_britax_britax_starriser_comfy_booster_seat.htm - 122k -

much more expensive than the Graco seats but cheaper than a new car.

Next time, use a better dictionary, lest you appear to be a used bottle of Summer's Eve.

Posted by: NHTSA | August 21, 2008 4:19 PM

Hey dont make fun of reusing feminine products. I do that all the time!

1990 Geo Metro:

38 mpg city
45 mpg highway
41 mpg overall

And it was a hell of a lot cheaper than a hybrid.

I don't get the fascination with hybrids. They have two sources of power to move a 3,000 pound car. To me that's incredibly inefficient.

Just because a car is graded a certain MPG does NOT mean it gets that. In fact, it rarely does. They manipulate it all the time. It's a good stat for comparing car to car, but it's not a real number.

My MPV is rated at 20 MPG city but I have never gotten that - it's about 16-17 MAYBE. On highway it's much better maybe 25 or 28 MPG.

Also, as a car ages, it gets worse and worse MPG each year. Go ahead, track it. So telling me that you get some MPG from a 20 year car - I'm going to say to you that MAYBE you did, many years ago (just maybe) but really, it probably does not get that mileage TODAY.

Hey dont make fun of reusing feminine products. I do that all the time!

Posted by: Cecilia | August 21, 2008 4:33 PM

GAK!
thats disgusting!

Hey dont make fun of reusing feminine products. I do that all the time!

Posted by: Cecilia | August 21, 2008 4:33 PM

------------------------------------------
Note to self: Bring bottle of unopened salad dressing if ever invited to dinner at Cecilia's place

08 Dodge Caravan 17/24 combined avg 19 on REGULAR Gas

04 Audi 18/26 combined avg 21 on PREMIUM gas

Nothing better for the enviroment than sucking up that EXPENSIVE premium gasoline.

Posted by: I call fake! | August 21, 2008 3:29 PM

Geez, whatever your name is, ever follow a logical argument? I didn't say a minivan is a gas guzzler or that my vehicle is more fuel-efficient but make whatever argument soothes your ego. I said, you don't need a minivan when you have two kids. Saying otherwise is simply idiotic and dishonest.

yammer on about the environment as you like. I am interested in a little integrity which seems to be in short supply both in Brian-land and in a few other households where the examples are getting more and more desperate of why some people absofrigginlutely must have their minivans when their households average 3.27 inhabitants and they go on vacation twice a year.

Hey dont make fun of reusing feminine products. I do that all the time!

Posted by: Cecilia | August 21, 2008 4:33 PM

this is the most disgusting thing i've ever read on the OP blog. cecilia, get some help.

And while I, too, survived discomfort in long car rides as a child, crammed into a VW with my two fidgety sisters, I don't feel like doing it to my kids. So sue me and make me start buying carbon credits.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | August 21, 2008 3:46 PM

Finally, you're being honest. It's not that you have to have a minivan to transport everyone. It's that you "don't feel like doing it to" your kids. That child who is in college? She's the one you've been delighted to screw out of college tuition money but now it's important to you that she be comfortable in your car. Them's interesting priorities: "Honey - we're here to teach you a lesson. Don't ever go against our wishes or we'll see to it that you carry undergrad debt until you have Alzheimer's, but you'll be real comfortable in the car when we tote you around town."

" I am interested in a little integrity which seems to be in short supply both in Brian-land and in a few other households where the examples are getting more and more desperate of why some people absofrigginlutely must have their minivans when their households average 3.27 inhabitants and they go on vacation twice a year."

Yawn, nothing worse than people with small cramped underpowered cars yammering on about their econoboxes. I will take driving in luxury and space anyday. And I am sure your lawnmower, plywood,2 kids, their friends and your husband etc etc fit just dandy in your econobox. Oh wait there's my phone must be you again begging to borrow my Expedition again.....

WOW - from the celeb blog | August 21, 2008 3:34 PM

Please for the love of God stop cross-posting comments across blogs. We can all use the directory. There's a place and a time for everything.

I used to think that too-- but my mom is now a widow and I'd like to have her join us on little day trips, but it is just too uncomfortable to seat five in our car because of the carseats. that's is why I am thinking of getting a minivan, even though we only have two kids. It would make my mom happy to see more of the countryside for her painting projects. (She's very good!) Hope that helps you see the bigger picture.

"Yawn, nothing worse than people with small cramped underpowered cars yammering on about their econoboxes. I will take driving in luxury and space anyday."

Did you show up for a knifefight with a spork, as ArmyBrat would say?

You consider a minivan to be "luxurious" and an Audi to be an underpowered econobox? Remind me not to take any of your restaurant recommendations because your idea of a luxury restaurant appears to be Applebee's.

Hope that helps you see the bigger picture.

Posted by: to mom again | August 21, 2008 5:31 PM

I have no problem seeing the picture, sweetheart. That picture is a damned sight bigger than the myopic one presented by Brian and the defensive, whiny soccer mom set. I'm not at all sure why you think we have a disagreement but you might want to reread earlier posts.

Now, boys, boys, boys. Stop fighting. I mean you Grammar Sheriff and you NHTSA. If you need to settle your differences, I suggest a duel.

Grammar Sheriff, your weapon is the unabridged OED.

NHTSA, your weapon is a bidet.

Now pace off 20 Minivan lengths and have at it!

1990 Geo Metro:

38 mpg city
45 mpg highway
41 mpg overall

And it was a hell of a lot cheaper than a hybrid.

Posted by: Speaking of good mileage | August 21, 2008 4:34 PM

Hey, Ned Flanders drives a Geo Metro, 'nuff said?

If your only tool is a bidet, you tend to treat everything as a dirty vagina.

So I guess that makes the Grammar Sheriff a nasty tuna taco.

why some people absofrigginlutely must have their minivans when their households average 3.27 inhabitants and they go on vacation twice a year.

My point is that a minivan can be just as economical and far more practical for hauling people and cargo than a sedan. Why do you think it is wrong to have a minivan with 3.27 people. We are talking about Honda Odysseys, Dodge Caravans and Mazda 5 not Ford Excursions and Chevy Suburbans. None of these vehicles are that much bigger than most sedans and have price ranges comparable to sedans.

A family of 4 owing a minivan is certainly not a family buying more vehicle than they need or can logically use.

"You consider a minivan to be "luxurious" and an Audi to be an underpowered econobox"

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Some minivans can be very luxurious and trust me a 1.8l Turbo Audi with AT defines the word underpowered!

we have a disagreement because said that "you don't need a minivan when you have two kids." i have two kids, but we life is much fuller than just the two kids. I assume other people have more going on in their lives than their kids, while you seem to think otherwise.

Ummmm...I would rather been seen driving a minivan ANYDAY than some crappy run-down rusting Mustang from the 80s.

Seriously...I LOVE LOVE LOVE our minivan that took us a long time to get.

I don't get all you herbs who think the minivan is not for attractive men. My husband looks AWESOME driving it. I could care less if some turd with a mullet thinks he isn't manly.

Of course...could be that when he's not driving the minivan, he's jogging or working out or working at his job and not spending all day being a troll and making jokes about women's body parts...

Just sayin...

Barf! I raisd three children in the 90's and I made do with a small stationwagon. You couldn't GIVE me a minivan. No way! I think they are ridiculous unless you have at least 4 children. A waste of gas and some kind of badge of the suburban "soccer mom". NO THANKS! Glad I avoided that one.

We've got two kids, ages 1 and 6. Don't own a minivan, don't plan to get one! Our two cars are a 1996 Chevy Cavalier and a 1995 Isuzu Trooper. Both bought used, both long since paid for. Their car seats can fit quite comfortably in the back seat of either vehicle, and there's still plenty of cargo space for groceries, kids' stuff, my husband's and my firefighting gear, etc. And before you super-environmentalists get on our case about the Trooper, we happen to be volunteer firefighters in a mountain area. Between the snowy winters (the medical personnel needing rides to work on snowy days LOVE us), heavy downpour-laden summers and fire calls with directions including "turn off the paved road," believe me when I tell you that 4WD comes in very handy! They both get good mileage, and like I said, they're paid for! We're never getting a DVD player for long trips, either-that's what looking out the window is for! Oh, and we're ultra-frugal about our gas use-for instance, I don't drive my six-year-old to school because we're close enough that she can walk. I've already told her that since we live in a small town where almost everything is within walking distance, she doggone well better have a good excuse for asking me to fire up the wheels. When they get older, riding bikes will also become an option for saving gas as well.

To the poster who insisted that kids share bedrooms and bathrooms, ironically enough when we were expecting our second kid, our older one asked if they could share rooms! However, we vetoed that idea due to age differences (not to mention the one-year-old still wakes up at night, which would definitely interfere with her big sister getting enough sleep!). They do share a bathroom though. No squabbles about hogging the bathroom yet...I'll keep you posted on that one as they get older.

One last note...I remember family road trips in the back of the station wagon. Mom and Dad in the front seat, me and my sister in the back. No modern stuff like DVD players or anything like that (my Walkman was about as high-tech as I got, but even that hardly got used due to good music on the radio). My only complaint was that Dad is a tall man, and a 600-mile road trip stuck downwind of a tall guy with stale armpits is not fun in the summer! However, that was a minor crimp in the excitement. If we survived without all the extra space and McMansion extravagance, so can our kids!

agree with con-e

Get a second ultra-cool car to balance out the minivan. We have a CRV for one tot and 2 dogs and an Infiniti G35 whenever mom has to "run an errand." There is never a carseat in the Infiniti except for one week when the CRV was getting serviced.

hmmm...

methinks anyone who can feel emasculated by the kind of car he drives has more issues than just the minivan.

We had the same exact dilemas. When we found out that we were having a child, I quickly did the math. With Maternity and Parental leave needing to be considered into our monthly budget, along with the future cost of day care, I rational thinking told us to get rid of or 2006 Mazda B3000, and our 2006 Saturn Ion and replace it with a vehicle that suited our needs.

Our needs.
1. Payments must not be greater then the most expensive existing payment on one of our vehicles.
2. Gas consumption needed to be lower than most mini vans in general.
3. We have 2 large dogs! We needed the space to bring them on family trips.
4. We are planning to have just two children, so needed to fit 2 Kids and gear comfortably on day to day occasions. (Diaper Bags, Strollers, and other Car filling baby junk)
5. Needed to NOT BE A MINIVAN

We looked at the Jeep Patriot, but were not satisfied with its overall lack of power, and expensive add-ons. They may advertise 16k new, but if you want a full sized spare tire you were up to 21000. The new Dodge Journey was too big and gas sucked. At the end of the day I liked the Mazda5 because, There were really only 3 packages to choose from, and the base model came with the things that make a car really fun to drive.

Good Choice on the Mazda5

For what it's worth, we're a family of 5 (3 kids-9,6, and 3) and have done just fine till now with our trusty Passat sedan. Yes, it fit three carseats across the back, when we needed them. Still accommodates a carseat and a booster with a little nimble-fingered buckling. It is a problem when we have visitors and can't fit anyone else, or if we are also hauling more than a single extra friend home from school. But the mileage is great, the car is fun to drive, we can park it anywhere, and there's still enough space for 4x/year roadtrips to visit my parents. Note that I'm not saying this to make any kind of assertion that I am superior to anyone (gawd some of the attitudes here are stunning), just throwing it out there to show it can be done. We gave some hard thought to a minivan when kid 3 was a baby, but figured we'd see how things went. With current gas prices, we've been glad we did.