overreact much?

what happens if a kid hits someone with a stick? chop down all of the trees?

my little girl is in day care where she gets pushed, grabbed, hugged, high-fived all day. When we put her in a room with her cousin (who is only child with sahm w/ few play dates - kind-of the opposite of our situation), he sits in the corner and cries at the first sign of adversity and my daughter just goes about her business.

I LOVE IT. she can take shove and bounce off her butt and keep going. she's already a tough little girl with no drama - and i give our rough and tumble day care environment a lot of the credit.

when i think about these ultra-sheltered kids and situations, all i can see is my example above. Nation of Wimps, here we come!!!

life is hard. sometimes you're going to get hit in the groin. but if you don't learn how to take a hit (physical or emotional), you're never going to grow up.

Well I sort of disagree with the first poster. Sure we don't want the schools to go completely over board with ridiculous rules. There is nothing harmful with a high five or a general pat on the arm.

What I don't understand how you can think it is appropriate or productive to allow children to kick each other in the groin? Seriously, that is dangerous and invasive. It is just common sense to teach our children the limits to physical roughness. I don't approve of hitting or a little shoving but I also don't think it is dangerous. But kicking someone in the groin is too far and the kid or kids should be suspended for such behavior.

"No touch" is an over-reaction and more of a "CYA" for the schools than anything else. The schools can't easily tell what's okay and what's not okay, so to play it safe they ban everything. That way they're always protected if/when somebody sues.

Ditto AB. These rules have nothing to do with protecting the kids. They are all about protecting the school from (a) a lawsuit, and (b) the annoyance of angry parents who complain at any exercise of discretion.

More importantly, our kids have to learn these distinctions. Ever had a three-year-old thump you on the back when he was really trying for a loving pat? Kids have to learn both their own strength and the limits of acceptable social interaction. When you take away all physical interaction, you also take away their ability to learn those limits.

School isn't just about reading, writing, and arithmetic. It's also the single most important place our kids learn how to behave in society outside the home, when mommy and daddy aren't watching every move. The more you impose artificial rules like this, the more you limit some of the really important social learning that goes on.

What should they do? Do what everyone else on the face of the earth does: draw a line between good touch and bad touch, between helping and hurting, between gentle and hard. It's just not that hard to ok high fives while still saying no to bullying and groin kicks.

There is pretty real difference between a high five and a groin kick. I think that when a child is being agressive with the intent of hurting another child then discplinary action needs to be taken. If a child is being made uncomfortable because of inappropriate touching there should also be disciplinary action. However, rules that deem all physical contact unacceptable are just ridicuolous. Are you really going to punish a child for hugging a friend the same way you would a child who gives another a black eye? Isn't that just a bit confusing for a child to grasp? How are these kids going to function when they get out of school and don't have every one of their actions dictated to them by an adult? Kids need social interaction to practice social interaction and we are doing them a disservice by taking those opportunities away.

Totally agree that a kick in the groin (or punch in the face or other malicious act) deserves firm and swift punishment.

If our teachers and administrators can't use enough judgment to have the punishment fit the crime, then i question their qualifications to be teaching at all.

if the teachers/administrators are only following instructions from the county board (or whatever), who are overreacting to pressure from a handful of parents, then we have a much bigger problem.

Foam, I don't think anyone is saying a kick to the groin is appropriate, do you not understand the nuances of the argument?

Kids of all ages have been pushing, shoving, kicking, shaking hands, hugging and tickling each other for thousands of years. When I was in HS someone getting in a fight was a daily occurence, in Junior HS boys snapped girl's bras and grabbed our butts. If a teacher caught you fighting or snapping bras he grabbed you by the scruff of the neck and told you to knock it off. If you were a trouble maker you were in the Principal's Office and your parents got called. There were no child advocates, or crisis response teams, or "Students against high fiving." The term "personal space" might have meant space travel as far as we were concerned, since it didn't need terminology for it to be understood.

Before the silly PCers start collapsing and foaming at the mouth, I am not advocating groin kicking or bra snapping, but this Principal is off her rocker. The weenies suppporting her are even worse.

Interesting, my kids get knocked around and bounce back. They know when it is incidental or purposeful and it was not because a counselor at school held a class, it was because they are normal kids and getting touched or knocked around in NORMAL. You are right, Nation of Wimps is this Principal's mantra, and she wants all the students to be lilly livered pansies. This is what I was talking about yesterday, if a parent came up to me and expressed support for the "no touch" rule I'd have a good time voicing my opinion. If we don't speak up against this nonsense "Can't we all just get along?" will be our national tagline.

i'm with you cheeky.

i love my daughter to pieces, but given the choice to send her to a school with a no-touching policy vs. one where she gets bullied occasionally, i'd tell her to get ready for some bullying.

One of the problems with the no-touch policy is that it is impossible to enforce with any kind of fairness. In fact, I think it would be very, very difficult for a student to go throughout a school day without touching somebody, even if it's a matter of insidental contact. In other words, it's a rule that everybody is going to break.

Unfortunately, when it comes to enforcement of a rediculus policy that requires punitive action, teachers, as humans they are, have a tendency to pick out the "undesirables" or the "different" students to apply the enforcement. So what all no-touch policies end up boiling down to is a codified process for teachers to assert their sexism, racism and biggotry. Say it ain't so.

So what are the consequences if a kid crosses the touch line? As far as I can tell, none these days. Yes, this is a bit of an exaggeration, but when we refuse to punish a kid they learn it's okay for them to do it because Mommy/Daddy/Teacher's job is to make them feel better about themselves instead of correcting unacceptable behavior.

I agree with those who say these idiotic policies are responses to the threat of lawsuits and such. There is good touching and bad touching and kids need to learn the difference, and schools need to be able to teach it. The problem is when you need to have a written policy defining the difference, because everyone is afraid to trust the teachers to use their own judgement. So then it becomes like the definition of pornography argument - you know the difference but you can't define it.

We need to let kids be kids. Punish those who do something that is clearly long, like kicking someone in the groin or snapping a bra, and let kids touch each other in positive ways - high fives, hugs, etc.

Basically, let's just use common sense.

Strollermomma, therein lies the problem. Without the authority to punish we back to square one. Welcome to the PC society.

"life is hard. sometimes you're going to get hit in the groin. but if you don't learn how to take a hit (physical or emotional), you're never going to grow up."

The above quote is from the first poster. No, I don't think a kid needs to just learn how to take a hit or a kick to the groin. The poster later goes on to say in another post
"Totally agree that a kick in the groin (or punch in the face or other malicious act) deserves firm and swift punishment."

I am not saying this isn't going to happen no matter how intolerant the rules are. I am just saying we don't give kids clear and appropriate boundaries. Instead we run to the all or nothing rules.

The problem is that we are all saying use clear and appropriate guidelines and we don't agree on what that is. There are still the parents that think an occassional bloody nose is OK or they should learn to deal with being hit. Then there are the parents who think if their kid is called a sissy, the other child should be arrested.

Basically we need to examine what was the intent (to harm the other child) and what was the result (damage either physically or emotionally).

But simply saying that people should buck up and learn to take it was the argument that was used to defend racism, prejudice, and sexual harrassment in the work force, which I hope is not considered OK to most people today.

I am not at all a whimp and don't think children should get records for a simple shove. But it does anger me when parents say kids need to learn to deal with being assulted in school (groin kicking).

Kids are being harrassed and bullied and assaulted in school everyday. And it starts in the elementary school age. By middle school, they should be well aware of what is expected of them. But they are getting mixed messages from the adults. Because we as adults have not really nailed down what we find acceptable and unacceptable.

as i see it:

1) kid gets kicked in the (metaphorical) groin, bully gets punished (harshly). kid learns that inappropriate behavior has consequences.

vs.

2) school outlaws touching. (and lets say the policy actually works) kid learns that somebody will proactively protect you from harm.

If we are teaching them that hugging and hand shakes are bad, then what are they going to think is good? There's also some heated debate about this on http://detentionslip.org

as i see it:

1) kid gets kicked in the (metaphorical) groin, bully gets punished (harshly). kid learns that inappropriate behavior has consequences.

vs.

interesting: Don't you see this as inherently different than what you first posted as a kid needs to learn to take it to grow up.

The message should be that it is unfortunate that this happened to you but it is not appropriate and the offender will be dealt with appropriately.

That is all that I am trying to say. Don't send the message that the victim needs to learn to take it. That has been the justification for maltreatment in the past.

Send the appropriate message, it is unfortunate that this happened and we will deal with the offender appropriately.

Foamy, I guess I don't see those two things as being inconsistent. I believe that any kick to the groin should be met with swift, consistent punishment. And I also believe that every kid is going to get kicked in the groin periodically and needs to learn how to handle it -- defend himself if he's being attacked, or suck it up and keep playing if it was an accident (and most importantly, develop the judgment to know the difference between the two).

It's the difference between what the authority figures say and what kid-world runs like below the radar screen. There should be rules, and grownups should enforce those rules and do their best to protect every kid. But an adult isn't always going to be there (bullies especially are really, really good at finding that 10-second window when the teacher isn't watching). And we're not doing our kids any favors if we don't help them learn to deal with that reality. We can't always run to mommy.

It's "Intro to Life 101." Yes, we have laws and regulations. But we also don't have the police watching our every move to enforce every violation (hallelujah). So we all have to figure out how to deal with annoyances and people who piss us off -- that happy medium between shooting everyone and calling the cops over every little thing.

Wrestling around and general roughhousing between kids may actually be important to human development -- certainly it's a trait that's survived years of evolutionary history in human and animal species though it puts participants at some risk. I don't put groin kicking in this category!

But I do worry that we are attempting to sanitize our children's interactions with the world -- no dirt, no physical play, no chance to make a mistake and learn from it!

Mind you, I really have to sit on my hands when my kids start wrestling around -- it always ends with someone getting hurt (never seriously) but they also laugh madly and bond hugely. What's easier for the adults is not always what's best for the children.

"There are still the parents that think an occasional bloody nose is OK or they should learn to deal with being hit."

Depending on the context, I'm one of those parents. Accidents will happen. Plus, I played football, and my kids play(ed) numerous sports, and they know you can get a bloody nose a number of ways and it's not necessarily too bad. Ya gotta take it and go on with your life.

Here's a good example - in middle DD's softball game yesterday afternoon, one of her teammates took a cleat to the face. Totally accidental; she was trying to tag a girl who was sliding; the girl's foot jammed into the bag, then popped up and whacked the fielder. Bloody, purple, swollen nose. The girl had to come out of the game for a few innings, but she came back and took out her frustrations in a big way. She hit the longest home run I've seen in quite a while. I mean, that ball was gone the instant it contacted the bat - must have landed 30 feet or more past the fence. The parent who went and picked up the ball joked that it had a dent in it. That girl took out some anger and frustration on that ball!

Gotta love a girl like that - takes a hit, then bounces back and gets revenge in a productive way.

AB: There is a difference between an accidental bloody nose and intentional bloody nose. There are still parents that think boys will be boys and they will get in the occassional intentional fight that results in a bloody nose. And that is OK.

Foam: "There are still parents that think boys will be boys and they will get in the occassional intentional fight that results in a bloody nose. And that is OK."

It is OK as long as it isn't malicious or bullying or a gang fight. Do you have any boys? My little guy is not much of a rabble rouser, but he took one too many punches and attacks from a friend when they were "playing" and took it upon himself to end it with a nice tackle and roll, which resulted in scratches and blood for both of them. Yes, he tried to use his "words" and told his friend to lay off, but when he didn't they settled it the way millions of other little boys have, they wrestled and "blood was drawn". They both grumbled and sniffled but guess what? Now the friend knows his boundaries and my little guy isn't getting pummeled and they are the best of friends. They play together everyday and there is no fighting (well, they argue, but no blood).

In your world what happens? Parental involvement? Seperation? Therapy? Move out of the neighborhood? Kids have been settling differences on their own forever but they need to to know when to tell an adult and when they can handle it. If there is a little wrestling, blood or a punch why freak out?

Geez, My husband and his brothers used to beat the snot out of each other daily and they all turned out ok.

These no touch rules scare the pants off me as well as some of the stories I have read about young children being charged with assault (sexual and otherwise).

My step-children are very affectionate and touchy-feely. With lots of touching (as in hugs and other things) and rough-housing comes some accidentally inappropriate touches and more serious pushing and hitting. And of course, the fastest way to irritate your brother or sister is to keep touching them after they have told you to stay away!

I am waiting for that affection to be misinterpreted in the school and for him to end up suspended or even worse - charged. We have periodic conversations with him about inappropriate touching and how he has to stop whatever he is doing as soon as someone tells him to. Hopefully this is effective.

My own stance on touching? Obviously, I think bullying should be stopped/prevented as quickly as possible whether it is my child doing it or not. But I am considerably more laid back about everything else. Accidents happen so I expect my child to get hurt occasionally. And any other touching they engage in? They will figure out they have crossed the line when the other child reacts negatively. If my child should continue to engage in play/touch that is not acceptable to other kids, I sure hope that someone (like a teacher) brings it to our attention so it can be dealt with.

But with rules like these... it seems that the child goes right to the serious punishment phase for any natural childhood interaction without any chance of gentle correction.

"The problem here is that many parents aren't willing to make their kids behave,..."

[Begin Rant]

What a load of bull!

You're wrong Kate. For one thing, there exists many behavioral disorders where a kid isn't capable of behaving as normally expected, and in no way is it the parent's ffault.

Besides that, there isn't a single parent I know that isn't willing to encourage their kids to be cooperative, if not for anything else, their own sanity. If a parent can get a child to behave, great! But if they think they can *MAKE" a perfect child they are going to have a rude awakening before their baby gets out of diapers. Most parents give it their best, but ultimately, the child makes his own decisians.

I don't have much respect for the "blame the mother" attitude, can you tell?

No child should have to attend school with the fear of physical violence and it's the responsibility of the school to provide the atmosphere/supervision necessary to meet this condition. If a kid gets beat up at school, it's the failing of the system. Corrective action needs to be address and taken at this level with reasonable, effective, and fair policy. Instituting a no-touch policy is about as lame as it gets, but pointing the finger at mommy won't do a darned thing.

[End Rant]

The reality is that the policy pops up so the school can say it did something, then it will die down and kids will be back to high-fiving like they were. It's just so lazy . . . much better to have discussions of bullying, aggressive behavior, making judgments about what's appropriate and what's not . . . Parnets should be more responsible for this than schools, but a stupid rule doesn't help much either. What happens when a kid is verbally bullied . . . a no talking in the hall policy? http://lipstickdaily.com

I'm sorry, but I don't condone the "boys will be boys" mantra, and soceity as a whole needs to remove this phrase from use. It is very important that from a young age boys learn to separate masculinity from violence. I'm not saying that kids should be sanitized, but turning a blind eye and teaching them that acts of violence are ok leads these boys on paths toward sexual and domestic violence.

Additionally, I worked in public schools for a few years, and while I think the "no touch" rules are ridiculous, I see why they are put in place. I saw kids being hit and groped in the halls of the middle and high schools where I worked. I would get in touch with parents, but of course THEIR child would never hit another or publicly make-out.I agree with FoamGnome, we've got to teach kids from an early age what's appropriate and what's not. Getting injured by accident is life. Getting punched in the face is an act of violence.

9th grade, gym class - boy pulled down my sweat pants on the track. I punched him in the face. We both got detention. My dad told me that if it ever happened again, I was to punch him in the face again.

As an aside, kids who aren't allowed to touch at all won't learn the difference between good loving touching and bad touching.

"I'm not saying that kids should be sanitized, but turning a blind eye and teaching them that acts of violence are ok leads these boys on paths toward sexual and domestic violence."

For the love of Pete, stop it. You are precisely what is wrong with society. So, kids that wrestle with each other are going to become sexual predators? I hear this bunk all the time and it is a load of crap.

If there is a problem with excessive groping in a HS and Johnny's parents won't do anything about it, let the schools call the authorities. We have neutered our schools to where no matter what the behavior, Johnny is still OK. BS.

No one is advocating steel cage death matches in HS (I think this happened in TX) but getting all up in arms because kids are kids is ridiculous. Further, No one is advocating by-passing teaching proper behavior either, but you are setting your kids up to be bullied if you don't teach them how to solve problems and thwart unwanted advances whether they be verbal or physical. If our kids are getting punched and hurt and feel like they are in danger, we tell them to defend themselves and fight back.

Good one Moxie.

cheeky: My little guy is only 9 months. He has yet to have a fight.:) My little girl is not all that aggressive. She is no wimp but she doesn't look to fight. One day at day care another child bit her and she marched right over and slapped her back. So I am not too worried about her. But she doesn't start fighting with people.

"I saw kids being hit and groped in the halls of the middle and high schools where I worked. I would get in touch with parents, but of course THEIR child would never hit another or publicly make-out"

MzFitz, that's exactly the problem. The schools can generally tell what's acceptable touching and what's not, but because they're afraid of parent reactions, up to and including lawsuits, they take the coward's way out and try to ban all touching.

In your description:

- kids punching: for some kids it's horseplay and you can tell when that is. If it's horseplay you tell them to stop and move on. If it's intentional bullying or the start of a fight you stop it, involve the principal/disciplinarian and impose appropriate punishment.

- groping: if it's non-consensual it's sexual assault and you involve the principal and if necessary, the authorities. If it's consensual then you get them to principal, give them a stern lecture about public displays of affection and impose appropriate punishment (first offense, just the lecture, escalating for folks who just won't listen to the lectures).

It doesn't matter whether their parents believe it or not - you and/or other school officials saw it, thus you have ample evidence to justify the actions taken.

Except, of course, that the parents will go get their friends the school board members, or they'll threaten to sue the school, the principal and you and so the school will cave and you'll have to apologize and...

So the school reverts to these ridiculous rules so that there's no question of you possibly misinterpreting what happened, etc.

I accompanied a group of high schoolers on a trip last year and witnessed a lot of groping and touching in the name of 'being affectionate' but in reality it was copping a feel. The boys would go up to a girl and hug her for no reason at all, with hands wandering. Another couple was spooning on the bus. Another girl had her head in her boyfriend's lap while sprawled on the airport lounge floor. (Can't these people sit in chairs?) At high school age students should be told to keep their hands to themselves and such groping in public is not appropriate. On another note, one was freak dancing with her iPod, embarrassing a gentleman in a business suit waiting for the same flight. Be considerate of your audience, please.

The bottom line is that we live in a reactionary society. Unfortunately, it's the kids who will miss out. All they'll experience are reactionary policies based on a minority, rather than education for prevention for the whole group.

Sorry Cheeky, but my partner makes a living applying public policy to sexual violence prevention, and I've seen the research, as well as experienced it as a woman coming of age. When you give kids, boys in particular, carte blanche on the playground, they have trouble hearing no when they find themselves coming of age sexually.

I'm sorry that you feel that I'm what's wrong with society. I've never committed a violent crime or stolen, and I don't believe in limiting rights. There is a HUGE difference between wrestling for athleticism, and wrestling to fulfill a violent need. Our jobs as rational adults is to teach kids the difference, and enforce boundaries.

"Our jobs as rational adults is to teach kids the difference, and enforce boundaries."

I've read variations on that theme all day here and you don't teach kids the difference if you eliminate all ambiguity. So it will get a little messy sometimes -- is it groping or is it a hug? -- and adults have to do their jobs preventing bullying and inappropriate behavior and kids have to figure out when and where they're going to tell someone to "cut it out." Really important stuff.

MzFitz:
"When you give kids, boys in particular, carte blanche on the playground, they have trouble hearing no when they find themselves coming of age sexually."

Please tell me who is advocating giving kids carte blanche anywhere? Perhaps your partner performs research, but you don't have any common sense when it comes to comparing it to real life experience. Not only are you not reading my responses, you are espousing stats that have little relevance in the discussion.

Go peddle your stats elsewhere.

Obviously, cheeky, you don't feel the need to read my posts in their entirety. I was simply talking about the "boys will be boys" excuse. Your post at 1:20 defends the boys will be boys mantra. I can't wait for the day that I don't hear that being used as an excuse for inappropriate behavior. I never peddled any stats, there are no numbers in any of my posts. Most of what I referenced comes from "real life" experience when I worked in public schools. You also seem to miss the point that to a degree, we agree. I think "no touch" rules are ridiculous.

You can continue to attack me, and I'll continue to put my time to good use by ignoring you posts from here on out. I will not report abuse, as I believe that you have every right to post your opinions here. Please keep in mind that i too have the right to agree and disagree with others. I just choose to do so in a polite manner.