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Park Etiquette: When Do You Step In?

It was an average afternoon at the playground. The boys rode ahead on their bikes. When I got there, a neighborhood nanny was holding one of her charges, a 2-year-old boy. The boy was repeating over and over, "Go other park." The nanny worked to comfort him, telling me that he had been happily on the swings when a woman next to her screamed at and spanked the child right next to him. The 2-year-old, obviously scared, was ready to leave. As we talked and the nanny comforted, the 2-year-old continually glanced fearfully over at the swings.

The nanny, meanwhile, was a bit flustered about how to help the child not in her care. Should she say something to the woman? Should she simply walk away as she'd done? "It's not right," she said.

Park situations, I've found, can be quite challenging at times. During that same park trip, a preschooler kept walking right in front of my boys on bikes, who were under orders from me to not run over the seemingly unsupervised child. Meanwhile, I did open my mouth and ask two boys to stop kicking the soccer ball, which nearly clobbered a toddler right behind one of them. No other supervisory adult of the pair seemed to notice or care. This particular park is really a small spot of playground equipment. Just down from it is a full soccer field, where the kids could have safely kicked the ball around.

All the while that day and for this past week since, I've thought back to the little boy who'd been hit at the swings. Should someone have intervened somehow? I didn't feel comfortable doing that given that I'd walked up after the fact. And even if I'd seen it, I'm not sure I'd have had the gumption to walk up to this complete stranger disciplining a child in a way she felt appropriate and say something to try to help the child.

There are ways that I've read to ease your way into such situations. For instance, "Kids can be so rough at that age. I know mine were. Would you like to take a break for a minute and let me push?" But when do you intervene using this tactic? How do you help without getting the evil eye -- or worse -- back in return?

By Stacey Garfinkle |  June 30, 2009; 7:00 AM ET  | Category:  Behavior , Recreation
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Comments


I'm not sure what you could have said to the woman who spanked her kid, given that you didn't even see what happened.

I have spanked my 4-year old on very, very rare occasions for really egregious behavior when I felt an immediate, serious consequence was in order. Since you don't know the age of the other child or what transpired, I don't know what you could say. Although I do think that spanking a kid right next to another kid is inappropriate, since he didn't do anything wrong and was likely to be upset by it.

Posted by: floof | June 30, 2009 7:27 AM | Report abuse

how about if all of the concerned parents mind their own business?

unless what me and my kids are doing puts you in harms way (physically, not your delicate sensibilities), then leave us alone.

if your angel sees me spanking my kid, tell her what a horrible dad i am and that mommy would never do that to her ever. then give her another Popsicle and a hug.

Posted by: interestingidea1234 | June 30, 2009 7:48 AM | Report abuse

Unless she is abusing the child, I really think you can't say anything. Although it is too bad because all parents, even good parents, need a break sometimes. I think adults need a time out to regroup and catch their breathe. I am surprised the other kid got so upset about the child being spanked. Maybe because so few kids get spanked these days.

I have taken the occassionaly swat at my kids behind. I am not proud of it and I always try to not resort to that form of discpline because I know it is not really effective. I think if you say you won't spank, you will only do it a few times and I don't think it is harmful to the child. But it is not very effective as well. But we all make mistakes.

I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Kids will see all sorts of things that may disturb them.

Posted by: foamgnome | June 30, 2009 8:14 AM | Report abuse

I don't think I'd intervene if I saw a spanking. I don't believe in spanking my own kids, but that's not my decision to make for anyone else. If a situation is clearly out of control, I might try to make eye contact with the other parent and make a mild comment to try to diffuse the situation, but that's my limit.

Unsupervised kids, however, are another issue. If a kid is acting badly and there's no parent in sight, I will absolutely say something. I have gotten one or two "looks," but the way I see it, just because a kid's own parent/nanny can't be bothered, doesn't mean that child has a free pass to hurt my kid or destroy property.

Posted by: newsahm | June 30, 2009 8:15 AM | Report abuse

Just last week I had to discipline a random child at the playground. He was growling at every child who tried to approach the piece of equipment where he was playing. My friend's four-year-old was very upset, but my own toddler was unimpressed. However, when my son tried to climb through the tube, the boy reached aout his hand to push my son. I said, "No pushing! That is not okay," in a very stern voice. His caregiver, who was on her cell phone, was completely oblivious.

I will always intervene in situations like the above, but I would not interfere at all if a mom was spanking her kid. It's not my business. However, if a mom or dad seems kind of harried and on edge, I try to offer words of encouragement. I have been on the edge myself occasionally. Sometimes a kind word is all that is needed to diffuse a situation.

Posted by: JellyBean3 | June 30, 2009 8:19 AM | Report abuse

Physically step in to prevent injury. (It's OK to remove a toddler who is walking in front of a swingset to prevent them from getting kicked in the face or hold back the arm of a child who has a handfull of sand ready to launch it at a baby in the sandbox.) Otherwise, it's a good rule of thumb never to touch anybody else's child unless first getting permission from the child's caretaker. This rule applies especially for men.

Posted by: WhackyWeasel | June 30, 2009 8:28 AM | Report abuse

Did your boys really require "orders to not run over the child"?

Anyway, I would intervene if someone is commiting a crime, or actions have the potential to unintentionly harm (the soccer ball example or kids pushing each other from a height) or intentionally harm (phyically punching). Other than that...

Posted by: 06902 | June 30, 2009 8:28 AM | Report abuse

Wow, Whacky's on a roll. :-)

Don't interfere unless there's an imminent safety risk. Especially don't interfere if you didn't see what happened and you're taking somebody else's word for it. If a parent chooses to spank his/her child, it's not your business. (Beating the child is a different matter; there's a huge difference between a swat on the bottom and an adult hitting a child with a fist.)

If there is an imminent safety risk (kid in danger of getting run over by a bike, kid walking in front of the swingset, etc.) then step in to resolve the situation.

And as Whacky points out, there are very different "unwritten rules" for men and women in these situations. If you're a man at the playground with your kids, interfering with somebody else's kids is likely to get you accused of all sorts of behavior. Avoid it.

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | June 30, 2009 8:40 AM | Report abuse

I wouldn't step in - but I'd be upset if that had happened to me and I'd been pushing my kid on a swing right next to another kid getting screamed at and spanked. If a kid is acting out and the care provider needs to discipline, I'd strongly prefer the care provider remove the kid from the swing, walk a ways away and deal with the problem via a time out. I really would not be keen to have a kid spanked right next to my own kid.

Again - not that I'd step in, but I'd give a harsh look to the care provider and I'd probably remove my own kid asap from being near that situation.

We all lose it from time to time or have moments where we are just at our wits end - I'm far from perfect. But there are better ways of handling a misbehaving kid, esp in public.

As for other situations, I don't often intervene, but I won't hesitate to if a potential injury is underway (to my kid or someone else's) and no one else is saying anything. I'm increasingly bugged by parents at the park who don't - I mean, really - it is NOT OK to let a kids throw sand other kids in the sand pit. Or to plow over smaller kids when they are climbing stairs to reach the top of the slide. I'm never one to yell or get upset but I will firmly ask the kids at fault to please be careful and mindful of their actions.

Posted by: stephs98 | June 30, 2009 9:16 AM | Report abuse

We were swimming last night, and watching a man with about six kids, including two 2 year olds who could not really swim. My husband pulled the girl up after she had gone under for a second time, and then put her on the side of the pool, but he felt nervous even about that.

Posted by: jeanlouise1 | June 30, 2009 9:33 AM | Report abuse


I have, on several occasions, asked a misbehaving child to take me to the adult that brought them to the park to discuss repeated misbehavior. I don't generally discipline, but I will ask a kid to stop behavior that is a physical threat to another child. I've also grabbed a few hands ready to throw sand and toddlers ready to get whacked by a swing. As an example, we were at a park the other day when two older kids, between 7 and 10 or so, were running at very high speeds through playground equipment labeled for kids under 6. The little kids were terrified and crying as these two boys roughhoused on the jungle gym. (There was a play area for older kids less than 15 feet away.) When I asked them to stop and take me to their parent, the behavior stopped immediately and they stayed in the playground for older kids for the rest of their stay.

I do try to help my child, 4, negotiate sharing issues with either playground equipment or toys. (We go to a park with a huge sand box that the city provides sand toys for, or museums with lots of toys for the kids to play with.) What I have noticed in those situations is that if you are the involved parents, many times other people's children will ask you for help. This is often a thankless job. We were at a park last week where a parent yelled at me for NOT helping their child. I was pushing my 4-year-old on a swing and was carrying my newborn in a baby sling. A little boy, around 2 or 3, wanted me to lift him up onto the swings and push him, something I wasn't going to do with a newborn attached to me. I told him I couldn't help him right now and that he should go get his mommy to help him on the swings. The mom, sitting on a park bench at least 200 feet away chatting with her friends, came back to the swings and yelled at me for not helping her son, told him he couldn't swing because of me, told him to "go play" and went back to talking with her friends.

I generally don't mind if another parent gently corrects my son or helps him negotiate sharing. What I don't like are parents who act like their kids own the park and everyone else needs to cater to their needs.

Posted by: sjneal | June 30, 2009 9:34 AM | Report abuse

"how about if all of the concerned parents mind their own business?

unless what me and my kids are doing puts you in harms way (physically, not your delicate sensibilities), then leave us alone.

if your angel sees me spanking my kid, tell her what a horrible dad i am and that mommy would never do that to her ever. then give her another Popsicle and a hug. "

Well said. Since when is it your right to tell strangers how to discipline their children? If you had intervened with me, you would have gotten a "mind your own damn business" reply. The nerve of some people....

Posted by: pwaa | June 30, 2009 9:35 AM | Report abuse

i think that if someone spanks a kid at the playground, well, then ya know, sorry you have to see it, but that's what they're doing. As someone above mentioned, it could be a teaching moment.
Your kid's not going to be scarred for life.
I've talked with kids at the playground, whether or not I can find the caregiver. If they are pushing, or hitting or whatever, I WILL say something to the kid.
When a kid thinks that ONLY the caregiver can discipline them, well, then, they think no one else can discipline them, and they think they can do anything they want, if only the caregiver's not watching.
My DH once disciplined his nephew (don't throw that or whatever) and my SIL slammed him for it - screaming at him and all. WOW. So she's teaching him that if mom's not there, well, then he can do whatever he wants, cause otherwise, whoever punishes HIM, well, THEY'RE not correct. WOW.
Of course, one shouldn't typically touch other kids, or anything like that, but if the situation warrants it, well, then it does. That's what happens when one is in public...one has to interact with other human beings. THE HORROR.

Posted by: atlmom1234 | June 30, 2009 9:37 AM | Report abuse

No one's saying the kid will be "scarred for life" from having witnessed a spanking - let's not get carried away.

But necessary to scream and spank at a swing right next to other kids swinging? I think not. It's not necessary and a poor display of adult behavior and uncomfortable and potentially upsetting for others to have to witness. Take it elsewhere I say.

Posted by: stephs98 | June 30, 2009 9:57 AM | Report abuse

MYOB and your own kids. How would you like it if a stranger told you how to discipline your kids.

Posted by: Baltimore11 | June 30, 2009 11:43 AM | Report abuse

I'll say whatever I want to you, it's a free country, and If you don't like it, tough tootsies.

And a disturbance going on right next to me and my child that involves hitting and screaming is certainly my business.

Posted by: WhackyWeasel | June 30, 2009 11:54 AM | Report abuse

somewhat related, I'm always torn on intervening when another child is clearly not sharing or grabbing things from my child in a hostile manner in a public place and the parent is absent or does not discipline the child. My knee-jerk reaction is to say something to the child that I would say to my own but in hindsight I wonder if I should let my daughter learn the harsh reality that there are mean people/kids in the world.

Posted by: mediajunky | June 30, 2009 11:54 AM | Report abuse

The way to handle a child that isn't sharing is to politely ask him for a turn. If the kid says, "no", accept it and move on. No intervention or discipline required.

However, A child that snatches could benefit from gentle correction.

Posted by: WhackyWeasel | June 30, 2009 12:23 PM | Report abuse

The way to handle a child that isn't sharing is to politely ask him for a turn. If the kid says, "no", accept it and move on. No intervention or discipline required.

However, A child that snatches could benefit from gentle correction.

Posted by: WhackyWeasel | June 30, 2009 12:23 PM | Report abuse


Before, or after you've polished off your six-pack?

Posted by: jezebel3 | June 30, 2009 12:26 PM | Report abuse

Seems to me that people could be a lot more understanding and not so to quick to say 'whatever I want' or 'give a look' to another parent.

if you stopped my toddler from getting kicked in the head by the swing because i wasn't paying attention, i would be appreciative. why does it have to be some kind of confrontation?

if Johnny is throwing sand, why don't you just play somewhere else? isn't that a nicer way to handle an inconsiderate parent/child vs. getting in their face?

any what in the world would make you comment on my discipline, no matter how close it is to your child? if you are so sensitive that the occasional playground breakdown causes you to get in my face, then maybe you should play in your backyard?

Posted by: interestingidea1234 | June 30, 2009 12:26 PM | Report abuse

why does it have to be some kind of confrontation?

what in the world would make you comment on my discipline, no matter how close it is to your child?

Posted by: interestingidea1234 | June 30, 2009 12:26 PM | Report abuse

Actually Stacey didn't say or do anything - "All the while that day and for this past week since, I've thought back to the little boy who'd been hit at the swings " - she must have lots of free time and/or lived a very sheltered life.

The confrontations are pure ego.

Posted by: jezebel3 | June 30, 2009 12:40 PM | Report abuse

Quite a mix here--We wonder if we should say something about another parent's form of discipline but then have dozens of comments about the kids who are not being disciplined at all. Hmm, wonder if there is any connection?

Do I advocate spanking as a be-all and end-all in dealing with children? Of course not, but there might be a time when a spanking (as others have said, NOT beating) is an appropriate and quick way to stop unwanted behavior.

Most of the time there is going to be a better way to approach these situations, but I still wonder if at least some kind of attention to poor behavior isn't better than the obvious wanton disregard for the way so many kids are allowed to act out regardless of the way their actions affect those around them.

Posted by: hsl2000 | June 30, 2009 12:47 PM | Report abuse

I wish I could say I would step in, but I'd probably chicken out. That said, I'm appalled, but not surprised, by the number of people vehemently defending spanking. It is not an effective punishment (unless your aim is to produce more spanking).

Posted by: StPaul1 | June 30, 2009 1:28 PM | Report abuse

Yeah, other people's kids are none of my business. Which is why I'm not taxed to pay for their schooling. Sure.

If I see a parent brutalizing his/her kid, I will say something. If not in the realistic expectation that they will immediately become better parents, then at the very least to make them feel some societal disapprobation.

Posted by: DupontJay | June 30, 2009 1:39 PM | Report abuse

"If you had intervened with me, you would have gotten a "mind your own damn business" reply. The nerve of some people...."

Then you would have to talk to the police or run real fast. Oh, the era of the cell phones (non-emergency number, of course). Such reaction would prove the spanking was not an isolated incident; the caregiver was a confrontational b*tch.

Posted by: lisistrata | June 30, 2009 1:47 PM | Report abuse

are you two kidding me? do you really think that you have any right to tell me i can't spank my child?

Posted by: interestingidea1234 | June 30, 2009 2:16 PM | Report abuse

"If you had intervened with me, you would have gotten a "mind your own damn business" reply. The nerve of some people...."

Then you would have to talk to the police or run real fast. Oh, the era of the cell phones (non-emergency number, of course). Such reaction would prove the spanking was not an isolated incident; the caregiver was a confrontational b*tch."


You confront me and I tell you to get lost and I am a confrontational B? BWAAAAAA!!! WHAT A JOKE!! run? snicker sure, dream on!!! I would relish the police to come so i could press charges against you, you ninny!

Posted by: pwaa | June 30, 2009 2:26 PM | Report abuse

You know, more parents should speak up when someone is spanking in public. Hitting a child is no better than hitting your spouse when they don't behave.

I will always regret those instances when I did not speak up (my kids are older now). We should consider spanking outside of "discipline" and call it what it is: hitting someone less powerful.

Besides, spanking doesn't work. If it worked, it would only have to happen once.

Posted by: readerny | June 30, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

I always find it interesting how spanking evokes so many strong feelings on both sides of the debate. Just some clarification on the particular situation to which I was referring. The child in question was in a baby swing. He couldn't have been older than 2.

Because I didn't see the hit myself, I can't say for sure where on his body he was hit, but my understanding was that it was not his bottom. Does that still qualify as spanking? In my mind it did because it was a disciplinary hit, but maybe others will have another view.

Posted by: Stacey Garfinkle | June 30, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

Screaming and hitting a child in public is:

1. inappropriate behavior for anybody, especially adults
2. disturbing to those that witness the event
3. Shows everybody in the vicinity that the parent lacks not only control over his/her own child, but lack of control over his/her own self.

if somebody next to me is behaving inappropriately and disturbing me, I don't have a problem asking him/her to stop, and I have every right to do just that.

interestingidea, we're talking etiquette here, not rights, and resorting to violence to control a child, especially in the public view, whether you justify it as "discipline" or not, is just. not. respectable.


Posted by: WhackyWeasel | June 30, 2009 2:36 PM | Report abuse

Says you.

that's my issue with all of these posts that advocate stepping-in.

why do you think your opinion of spanking, breastfeeding, child leashes, or high fructose corn syrup is more valid than your neighbor's?

you don't get to enforce your idea of how other people should behave. if it isn't hurting you, mind your own business.


Posted by: interestingidea1234 | June 30, 2009 2:46 PM | Report abuse

OK, here's a situation for everyone to think about.

One day a few years ago, I had a day off from work. I decided to see a film that is ostensibly a "child's film" (Charlotte's Web). I went to the first showing on a weekday, at a theater in Chevy Chase.

Tons of young children, the vast majority of whom were accompanied by their nannies, the vast majority of whom then proceeded to sit in the last row in the theater, leaving their charges in the rows below. Nannies proceed to chat among themselves, while the kids are left to watch the film, fight, cry, fall asleep, etc.

What would you have done in that situation?

Posted by: WashingtonDame | June 30, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse

"Says you.

that's my issue with all of these posts that advocate stepping-in.

why do you think your opinion of spanking, breastfeeding, child leashes, or high fructose corn syrup is more valid than your neighbor's?

you don't get to enforce your idea of how other people should behave. if it isn't hurting you, mind your own business. "


because they are so self absorbed and convinced of their inherent superiority that anyone who disagrees is hateful, ignorant, backward etc. They can only act like this if people let them, telling them to buzz off is the most effective way of defeating them.

Posted by: pwaa | June 30, 2009 2:55 PM | Report abuse

So your understanding is that it "was not his bottom" - maybe the face? And you really question if that qualifies as spanking? Wow. There are many other ways of teaching kids what is right and what is wrong - just start explaining things to them when they are doing something wrong. And the question is, what are we teaching our kids? That it is o.k. to hit each other when someone does something wrong? And yes, it is always o.k. to say your opinion, even when it is about spanking.

Posted by: ml011 | June 30, 2009 3:07 PM | Report abuse

What scares me is Stacy has to tell her own kids (the ones who masturbate, pick their nose, and pee on the toilet seat) not to run over another child. DUH! And you're taking parenting advice from this woman? Sounds like a delightful household.

OK....so, years ago I went into a grocery store and right away I witnessed a huge black man smack his child (a girl--barely up to his knees) across the face and bloody her nose. Several other people saw it, too. I started toward the man but when he stood up he looked like a basketball player so I backed off. He picked his wimpering kid up and carried her around the store, blood dripping on his shirt. The deli counter guy handed him napkins to wipe the bloody nose. Everybody else kept a safe distance from the man. I can only imagine what the mother's reaction was when he brought home a child with a bloody nose and stains on his shirt. He probably said she fell down a got the injury. Now pounce on me because I mention the fact the man was black and this was a racist commentary. No, it was merely a statement of fact. Most of the people who backed away from him were black, too.

Posted by: Baltimore11 | June 30, 2009 3:20 PM | Report abuse

Besides, spanking doesn't work. If it worked, it would only have to happen once.

Posted by: readerny | June 30, 2009 2:31 PM | Report abuse

Your definition of effective discipline is that you only need to implement it once?

Have you found this magic discipline and can you share it so we can shut down all the jails, end war, eliminate fines/tickets/reprimands/demerits/firings/suspensions/etc. and just get on with world peace and utopic living?

Posted by: 06902 | June 30, 2009 3:34 PM | Report abuse

Baltimore11 - what color was the deli counter guy? That would have made the story WAaaaaay more interesting...

Posted by: 06902 | June 30, 2009 3:42 PM | Report abuse

The deli counter guy was a black teenager.

Posted by: Baltimore11 | June 30, 2009 3:47 PM | Report abuse

One day a few years ago, I had a day off from work. I decided to see a film that is ostensibly a "child's film" (Charlotte's Web). I went to the first showing on a weekday, at a theater in Chevy Chase.

Tons of young children, the vast majority of whom were accompanied by their nannies, the vast majority of whom then proceeded to sit in the last row in the theater, leaving their charges in the rows below. Nannies proceed to chat among themselves, while the kids are left to watch the film, fight, cry, fall asleep, etc.

What would you have done in that situation?

Posted by: WashingtonDame | June 30, 2009 2:48 PM | Report abuse


I would have either tried to enjoy the movie anyway, or left if that was not possible. Seriously, that it the movie theater culture for morning shows or early matinees of children's movies. What on earth did you expect?

Posted by: emily8 | June 30, 2009 4:02 PM | Report abuse

Is someone being harmed - or highly likely to be harmed?

That's when you do *something*.

What you do, specifically, is a judgement call. Maybe saying something on the spot to the person doing harm, or maybe not. You do NOT put yourself at risk of harm. If directly intervening puts you at risk, call police and/or CPS. Stay where you are (out of range) and keep watching. At this point, if you have photo or video capabilities (cell phones) turn 'em on. This might discourage the person doing harm from doing any more. It might also provoke this person to become hostile or threatening to you, so again, you have to exercise your judgement and protect yourself from harm.

(This is part of clergy training for my religion. Our principle rule is "harm none", so we have an obligation to do what we can to protect everyone we encounter from harm if we can do so without harming ourselves.)

Posted by: SueMc | June 30, 2009 4:19 PM | Report abuse

Besides, spanking doesn't work. If it worked, it would only have to happen once.

Posted by: readerny | June 30, 2009 2:31 PM |
_____________

Is there something that only has to happen once? If so, please tell us. If not, then that might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Posted by: pipe1 | June 30, 2009 4:22 PM | Report abuse

When I was much younger, I stupidly tried to intercede at the grocery store when a woman was smacking her child. It did little to diffuse the situation, and may actually have made it worse. I think I said something like, "That is no way to treat another person, much less a defenseless child." She retorted " Lady, get outta my face unless you want what she got." This was well before cell phones with cameras were in use. I did feel very sorry for the kid. Should I have called the police? Is a smack the same as abuse? Where do you draw the line?

Posted by: emily8 | June 30, 2009 5:29 PM | Report abuse

"Besides, spanking doesn't work. If it worked, it would only have to happen once. "

I hate it when anti-spankers says this. So please tell me that you have only had to displine your child one time? Once your kids experienced a 3 minutes timeout, he/she never committed said offense.

Posted by: Soguns1 | June 30, 2009 5:37 PM | Report abuse

"When I was much younger, I stupidly tried to intercede at the grocery store when a woman was smacking her child. It did little to diffuse the situation, and may actually have made it worse. I think I said something like, "That is no way to treat another person, much less a defenseless child." She retorted " Lady, get outta my face unless you want what she got." This was well before cell phones with cameras were in use. I did feel very sorry for the kid. Should I have called the police? Is a smack the same as abuse? Where do you draw the line? "

-Good. I agree with the mother. Stay outta it. And what purpose would a cell phone camera have done? So you could take a picture and show the police? Not likely she would've gotten arrested. And she would've left the store long before the police arrived. (311 is a joke. It works way too slow if there is not an immenate harm.)

Posted by: Soguns1 | June 30, 2009 5:41 PM | Report abuse

Emily: Actually, you maybe did some good. The child somehow in his/her little life may hopefully learn that the way his/her mom is acting is not correct, seeing another adult question it, might actually tell the child that not all adults are abusive, that some care, etc.

Posted by: atlmom1234 | June 30, 2009 8:17 PM | Report abuse

fr emily8:

>...She retorted " Lady, get outta my face unless you want what she got." This was well before cell phones with cameras were in use. I did feel very sorry for the kid. Should I have called the police? Is a smack the same as abuse? Where ...

In this situation, a smack is most certainly ABUSE, and don't the naysayers tell you differently. YES, police should have been called and I hope someone got the "woman's" license plate number.

Posted by: Alex511 | July 6, 2009 12:14 PM | Report abuse

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