There are so many kinds of "diversity". I went to an overprivilaged high school that prided itself on "diversity". There was economic diversity and racial diversity and religious diversity and geographic diversity. There wasn't any political diversity however. What I mean, is that while everyone might have looked different, everyone thought the same. Everyone's parents had roughly the same values, education level and desires. It wasn't until I left that atmosphere that I realized how sheltered I was and how big of a deal diversity can be under different circumstances.

Sometimes I think it's the tension that comes from diversity that children should be exposed to, not just people who look different.

"I went to an overprivilaged high school that prided itself on "diversity"."

overprivilaged?

"Sometimes I think it's the tension that comes from diversity that children should be exposed to, not just people who look different."

Posted by: crayolasunset | December 14, 2009 8:47 AM | Report abuse

Dunno what that means, but a "comfort level" seems to help where I live. No stats, no cites, just like Brian. Meaningless.

I do think that being exposed to and interacting with all different kinds of people is a valuable life experience, that said, I agree with Crayola in that while you may alter the color of the classroom, you have a self selected group who are all "gifted", so there is a lack of intellectual diversity. There can often be much to gain by working with people who think differently than you do, who may not be as smart as you. There is value in learning that everyone has something to contribute. I'm not sure the gov't is the best vehicle for creating this perfectly diverse world. I think that's where we as parents come in, in ensuring that our children are aware of and experience a variety of peoples and situations.

You want your gifted kid exposed to diversity?...make them take an afterschool (or summer) job in retail. A few hours a week behind the register at Walmart will get them all caught up.

You want your gifted kid exposed to diversity?...make them take an afterschool (or summer) job in retail. A few hours a week behind the register at Walmart will get them all caught up.

Posted by: 06902 | December 14, 2009 9:27 AM | Report abuse

Or Lord & Taylor.

It looks like the Virginia public schools need to seriously revamp their Affirmative Action policy to make up for the unacceptable racial population disparages in the Gifted and Talented programs.

"Disparages"? Looks like many OP posters haven't been through the G&T program...

06902, so what's wrong with the word "disparages"?

Where to begin? Well, "disparage" is a verb. You can make a disparaging remark, you can disparage something, you can even act disparagingly, and you may even be a disparager. But "disparages"...no such word.

I can only imagine that you meant to write "disparity", or inequality.

to correct myself, I guess you could write "something disparages something else", but that's not how you wrote your phrase.

Oh, please. We are taking this way too far. While yes, they should look to see if there is some reason that blacks are testing worse than whites, getting rid of the program altogether might be a bit extreme (that wasn't mentioned, but still, that's what was implied).

Okay, so my kid is in school for 7 hours a day. About 45 minutes of those he is in gifted (but only four days a week). How is that not exposing him to diversity? Seriously? Really? For more than 6 hours a day he is in a classroom with all sorts of other kids - and for less than one hour he is in class with kids who were partially self selected. Do we have to dumb down everyone so we only have drones coming out of the schools? So that everyone can be alike? Seriously - shouldn't we be encouraging excellence rather than mediocrity?

Experiencing racial and socioeconomic diversity is important in my opinion so that people can learn to respect other people.

However, intellectual diversity is just a fact of life. There are students that are more academically gifted than others. Smarter students should be separated in order to be challenged. Gifted programs are just the beginning of that. I believe strongly that keeping students separate based on their academic capabilities and goals is the right thing to do, for all students to get the level of education that they can handle. My public middle and high school offered honors courses for students who excelled academically. Was there a disproportionate representation of races in these honors courses?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that there was discrimination at work.

I think that's the key point - as long as there is no discrimination occurring, a notion to increase diversity is misguided.

OK 06902, I've never been considered one of the brightest knives on the Christmas tree, but sheesh. Alls I gots to say about your disparaging remark about "disparages" was that I were a product of public education and my teechers didn't learn me my english no good.

I heard an interesting stat from MoCo Md about a year ago - 40% of kids at the HS level were in Gifted and Talented programs. The levels in Alexandria are much lower, but I wonder if "correcting" the diversity problem in MoCo lead to everyone becoming gifted and talented.

I don't have enough time in the day, or this week, to list everything wrong with the public school system across the country - I am too busy fighting it on the local level. 70% of our budget here in Loudoun County goes to the schools, the remaining 30% is spread between 32 other agencies, and the Superintendent and his PTA minions have the gaul to cry that they are being short changed.

The entire system is overfunded, bloated, full of bureacratic baffoons and union knuckleheads and the taxpayers are getting taken advantage of because it is all "for the children". Other than that I think the public school system is A-OK.

While there is definitely value in exposing our children to people of varying backgrounds, I think that Affirmative Action G&T is taking that way too far.

Remember, G&T is only a short part of the week, and for some kids, the only part of the week where they receive any sort of intellectual stimulation at all. The whole idea is to give the quicker learners stuff to do to keep them from gouging their eyes out with pencils. Throw a bunch of slower learners in the mix, and you defeat the entire purpose.

Let the G&T kids get their diversity fix during the rest of the week.

Remember, G&T is only a short part of the week, and for some kids, the only part of the week where they receive any sort of intellectual stimulation at all.

Posted by: afsljafweljkjlfe | December 14, 2009 11:17 AM | Report abuse

At Burgandy?

The disparity is most likely caused by the fact that the kids are selected for gifted programs based on their parents pushing for their kids to be in them. The higher-income parents (which tend to be white) are more likely to be aware of the programs and more likely to push for their kids to be in them.

As to the question "Is diversity a necessary component of a full education?", I don't think it is necessary but it is important to my wife and me that our kids are in a diverse environment. That is one of the reasons we decided to send them to a charter school instead or our local elementary school. The local school is rated excellent academically, but it is a bit overcrowded and is also 95% white. The charter school also has excellent academics and is extremely diverse racially, culturally, and economically.

I really don't think govt needs to be shoving diversity down people's throats. Children can grow up just fine appreciating diversity even if there is no diversity in schools.

I grew up in an extremely rural area where only whites lived until my senior year of high school. At that time, we gained a black and an asian student.

I might have been pretty naive when I went to university (and that included more than just diversity) but after a faux pas or two, I had no issues with diversity. My best friend's parents immigrated from Hong Kong. The guy that I hung out with every night watching old movies was from China. The love of my college years was born in India. I also dated a Jewish man and several more Indians while in university. After university, I dated someone of Korean ancestry and several from Latin American.

Growing up in an all white environment didn't prevent me in the slightest from appreciating and understanding different cultures as an adult.

"emember, G&T is only a short part of the week, "

Depends on your school district. Here in FFX County, there are two different kinds of GT- school based (which is what you described) and center based. The center based kids are in a seperate program all day.

The real question, I think, is can a teacher really teach to an entire class that is working at extremely different levels? If you have some kids who are working 1 or 2 (or more) years above grade level while others are functionally illiterate, what is really going to be going on? Are the more advanced kids going to be bored out of their minds while the teacher tries to catch the other kids up? Are the kids who are behind going to be left to fall further behind while the teacher attempts to teach to the middle of the group?

I will say this- I did center-based GT starting in the 4th grade and was much happier. I spent most of the third grade bored out of my mind and completely miserable while class was in session.

If you view the public schools as primarily a social engineering tool, well, then abolish GT. But if you think they should primarily be institutions that allow kids to receive academic instruction and prepare for college and the workforce, there needs to be some mechanism for dealing with kids who are not working on grade level.

"The center based kids are in a seperate program all day."

Posted by: floof | December 14, 2009 11:35 AM | Report abuse

Seperate?

Please. I had 3 hours of sleep last night. I think that justifies typing an "e" instead of an "a".

"the Superintendent and his PTA minions have the gaul to cry that they are being short changed."

Cheeky, they have the gaul? Where are they keeping him? The Fairfax Bastille?

Please. I had 3 hours of sleep last night. I think that justifies typing an "e" instead of an "a".

Posted by: floof | December 14, 2009 12:30 PM | Report abuse

When you are bragging about attending "center-based GT starting in the 4th grade"?

Apparently there is a consensus that there should be no diversity in grammer or spelling.

No! Overprivilaged Gauls seperate disparages from the grammer of bureacratic baffoons!

Apparently there is a consensus that there should be no diversity in grammer or spelling.

Posted by: VaLGaL | December 14, 2009 12:55 PM | Report abuse

Grammer?

Grammer?

Posted by: jezebel3

See!?!

I'd say no, diversity as a goal is not important. If the school we send our child to is diverse, great. If not, I won't worry about it. I don't see what the benefits of forced diversity are.

Re: Alexandria City -- this is the same set of officials who decided to change the label of "at-risk" kids to "at-promise". Details at: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2009/11/post_1.html

Re: "While yes, they should look to see if there is some reason that blacks are testing worse than whites, getting rid of the program altogether might be a bit extreme (that wasn't mentioned, but still, that's what was implied)."

We don't need another study or test. We know exactly what the problem is. The Post ran a story written by an Alex City teacher about this not too long ago http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/15/AR2009101503477.html?hpid=mostpopular_email

The take away is this quote: "My students knew intuitively that the reason they were lagging academically had nothing to do with race, which is the too-handy explanation for the achievement gap in Alexandria. And it wasn't because the school system had failed them. They knew that excuses about a lack of resources and access just didn't wash at the new, state-of-the-art, $100 million T.C. Williams, where every student is given a laptop and where there is open enrollment in Advanced Placement and honors courses. Rather, it was because their parents just weren't there for them -- at least not in the same way that parents of kids who were doing well tended to be."

Why would I seek to enroll my kid in such an environment? Just so I can say I send him to a diverse school with students who by their own admission don't care?

Jezebel, not sure how that was bragging. LOTS of kids attend center-based GT programs... it's hardly a badge of distinction

I guess you don't want to talk about any of the actual points I made in my post, or about the topic at hand, because it's more fun to pick at people. So, carry on.

I guess you don't want to talk about any of the actual points I made in my post, or about the topic at hand, because it's more fun to pick at people. So, carry on.

Posted by: floof | December 14, 2009 1:21 PM | Report abuse

I yield to the legions of others who will comment on your post....

I had one kid go through the center-based GT program and one go through regular base school. Luckily our local elementary school also has a GT center so there wasn't any angst about going to a different school. Frankly, I didn't notice any change in diversity between the two programs - both were heavily white (including middle Eastern) and Asian with a sprinkling of black, and Hispanic. Lots of diversity within the Asian population, though - Indian, Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese, etc.

The diversity is one thing I appreciate about the Northern VA area - especially in contrast to Ohio where I grew up and where my nieces and nephews went to school. (The thing I do miss about Ohio is the Jewish culture - I miss the great food. There are no real delis in NOVA.)

On the GT thing - Fairfax needs to reign in the number of GT centers. My GT kid was smart - but she's not markedly smarter than my non-GT kid. The County has passed the time when we have unlimited funds to spend. My preference would be to cut the GT spending and focus on maintaining smaller classroom size and services for all kids.

On the GT thing - Fairfax needs to reign in the number of GT centers.

Posted by: GroovisMaximus61 | December 14, 2009 1:33 PM | Report abuse

Reign?

I think as kids get older and into middle/high school that the gifted scheduling tends to throw them into non-gifted courses with a higher proportion of gifted kids. While it may only be 45 minutes in lower grades the effect multiplies as you progress.

Kids get so cliquish in school. Exposure to ethnic and intellectual diversity is valuable.

The real solution is to improve discipline and instruction so that all classes offer the same benefits as gifted ones.

On the GT thing - Fairfax needs to reign in the number of GT centers.

Posted by: GroovisMaximus61 | December 14, 2009 1:33 PM | Report abuse

Reign?

Posted by: jezebel3 | December 14, 2009 1:37 PM | Report abuse

I meant "rein in" versus "reign in." Sorry.

My mom had me and my brother tested for the G&T program in kindergarten because she wanted the best education for us. It had nothing to do with that we were white or that my parents had a high income, which they certainly did not. In fact, my brother failed the written test, but my mom wouldn't take no for an answer and insisted on an oral test, which he passed perfectly. And then when we moved from Pennsylvania to Maryland, my elementary school didn't send my G&T records, so they wouldn't let me in the program in MD. So my mom went and jumped up and down on the principal until he said yes.

If Alexandria wants their G&T program to be more diverse, they should offer information seminars so more parents are aware of the option. Diluting the G&T programs by adding average students just for diversity sake defeats the purpose of the program. My time in the G&T sessions were often the only engaging times of the day vs. the time I spent in the regular sessions waiting for the other kids to catch up.

The whole question is silly anyway. If you live in Alexandria, VA, you already experience diversity on an everyday basis.

Overprivilaged Gauls reign in seperate disparages from the grammer of bureacratic baffoons?

I think, Brian, that you're lumping together two different issues. One is the important of fairness in education. If G&T programs are racially skewed, that needs to be addressed not for the educational value of "diversity" but because people of all races need and are entitled to equal opportunities in education. It's not so much about providing additional value to the kids in the program as ensuring that we're not perpetuating historical biases through our educational models.

As for diversity, I do want my child to be exposed to a wide range of people; I think it's up to me as a parent to find ways to make that happen. But I do find it a little weird when middle-class or upper-class white people (like me) talk about diversity in a way that makes it all about the value to our darling children of seeing all those "different" people.

I want my child to understand the full range of the human experience; to not think that he is entitled to everything that he has; to know to treat people as individuals rather than as genders or races or religions or whatever; to know that racism isn't ok; to have compassion for people who are struggline with different circumstances. I want these things because I think that's part of being a good person and a good citizen. And exposure to a diverse range of people may help him learn those things - but it's not just for his own personal edification or so I can check off a box on my list of "good parenting credentials."

I would say that it's an interesting topic, but I don't see how we can have a civilized discussion if a certain person continues to be disruptive and rude. It seems to me that this is abusive and ought to be reported to the moderator, or else the rest of us ought to ignore her, or both. It's getting tiresome.

Two issues:

One, if you are segregating a "gifted class", that is either center-based, or just the child's full time class (vs. a general ed class) at a young age, you are really identifying "gifted"students based on behavior. Who can sit still at their desk, raise their hand to ask a question, and already has the foundations to read, if you're talking about a gifted kindergarten class. If you tested the same group at 4th or 5th grade, you might end up with different kids in the gifted program, but it's already too late for most to make it in (the program is full).

2nd - Sometimes it is frustrating to see the term "gifted and talented" applied only to the limited academic education provided by our public schools. Children may be gifted musicians, or artists, or gifted at learning new languages, or physical construction, etc. But if they don't read above grade level, or do high school math in middle school, their special gifts are not acknowledged. Yes, many families do make the effort to nurture those gifts, and no, I don't think it's the responsibility of the school system to do so, but the way the term is applied makes it sound like so many kids are of lower value, when they're not.

"If Alexandria wants their G&T program to be more diverse, they should offer information seminars so more parents are aware of the option"

You're assuming that the parents care.

"the way the term is applied makes it sound like so many kids are of lower value, when they're not."

A superficial fix would just be to change the name then to "Academically Gifted and Talented". Would that make you less frustrated?

"Kids get so cliquish in school. Exposure to ethnic and intellectual diversity is valuable.

The real solution is to improve discipline and instruction so that all classes offer the same benefits as gifted ones."

Hey, here's the real solution: make everyone live a military brat life. You get to start third grade in Denver; continue it in Baltimore and finish it in Mississippi. Then you can start fourth grade in Mississippi, continue it in Louisiana and finish it in Germany. Let's see how cliquish you become then. :-)

Sorry, I'm not going to get drawn in to a discussion of GT program. HoCo MD has the model of "if the parents want the kid in GT, the kid is in GT. Period." All you have to do is look at the HoCo PSS website for this table:

Gifted and Talented Program
Percentage of students who have
participated in a variety of Gifted and
Talented Education Program offerings:
K to Grade 5 43%
Grades 6 to 8 43%
Grades 9 to 12 41%

Lake Woebegon. We're all above average.

Okay jez, find the spelling error I deliberately inserted into this post. :-)

"One, if you are segregating a "gifted class", that is either center-based, or just the child's full time class (vs. a general ed class) at a young age, you are really identifying "gifted"students based on behavior. Who can sit still at their desk, raise their hand to ask a question, and already has the foundations to read, if you're talking about a gifted kindergarten class. If you tested the same group at 4th or 5th grade, you might end up with different kids in the gifted program, but it's already too late for most to make it in (the program is full)."

I think this is one of the things that worries me about G&T programs (and this is really based on very limited information, so I may be way off). On the one hand I agree that having one teacher trying to teach to a wide range of abilities is hard, and I know that the kids who are advanced need to be challenged. On the other hand, it seems like kids get "tracked" so early and I worry about kids who could be excelling if they hadn't been tracked one way so early on. Kids develop so differently at the young ages - one might excel verbally but be slower in visual stuff, or vice versa, that I'm just not sure that you can know that early on.

Right now we are looking at where to send our son for kindergarten and elementary, and debating whether to try to get him into a public Montessori charter school, and these are the conversations that sway me in that direction - the focus on the individual at that age just seems to make such a difference in allowing them to excel in the way that is right for each child.

Okay jez, find the spelling error I deliberately inserted into this post. :-)

Posted by: ArmyBrat1 | December 14, 2009 2:09 PM | Report abuse

Woebegon? At least you can still deliberately insert something...

My daughter's only three years old, but these type of issues make me want to consider home-schooling. Then I could tailor the program to what she needs. But that's whole other topic.

Instead of asking the schools to be all things for all kids, parents need to identify the special attention their kids need and provide it: whether it's exposure to diverse people, extra tutoring for a subject the child is falling behind in, or extra stimulation for gifted kids.

Certainly obvious here that some people's gifts and talents lay only in making obtuse remarks.

Yes, gypsy - public education can not be all things to all kids.

Our county spends more money on Special Ed over G&T. There are arguments on both sides as to where the dollars should go, but I will tell you - they are both budget busters. I would be great if every parent scrutinized their local school budget and read the line items for both, better yet look at the staff/student ratio over the last 10 years. I can guarantee the trajectory is up, up and away, and that does not mean more teachers in the classrooms. It means more "specialists", "behavioral therapists", "parent-teacher liaisons", "1st grade guidance counselors".....the list goes on and on.

contraria contrariis curantur, anonymous_one.

Offer up something intelligent if you're so inclined...

In elementary school I was in the "Slow Reading" and "Slow Math" sections and by middle school I was in Honors classes and by high school I was in Honors and AP classes. I don't think it would have helped me or helped the smarter kids in elementary school to put us all together. I needed to be taught these slower and the kids in the gifted program needed more of a challenge-I'm glad my school hadn't been worried about diversity and fairness. Also, it was a big motivation for me even as an elementary school student to get out of the slow lane-maybe if I had been mnade less aware that I was slow then I wouldn't have been as motivated to study more at home and improve myself.

I could use a good G&T program! I can see seminars on the relative merits of Bombay Sapphire vs Bombay vs Hendricks.

My prechoolers are in an ACPS program and doing very well. I've been impressed with the quality of instruction and the dedication of the teachers. This even though the school serves a relatively disadvantaged population.

Given the overall population of the DC region, opportunities for exposure to children with different backgrounds abound. So, I wouldn't worry too much about diversity within the classroom. Trust me. Not many people worry about the demographics when their kid gets into TJ.

With regards to the spleling trolls, here's something from MacWorld's 8 steps to Internet unpopularity:

4. Nitpick Nothing repels a crowd like the self-appointed grammarian. These are the people who sideline discussions to correct the spelling and grammar of other people in pursuit of “quality”—forgetting that the Web has no borders and it’s possible that English is not the first language spoken across the globe. Or that, perhaps, ideas are more important than the exact verbs, nouns, and adjectives used to express them.

http://www.macworld.com/article/143491/2009/10/internet_unpopularity_steps.html

BB

"I needed to be taught these slower and the kids in the gifted program needed more of a challenge-I'm glad my school hadn't been worried about diversity and fairness."

Oh, well yeah, so long as it worked out for you, to heck with fairness! Who cares about those other kids.

I mean, I suppose it might be possible that you would have been in the slow class even if fairness and diversity were taken into account (and maybe they actually were in your school), and so there's no need to throw those two values out the window. But that would just be silly.

LizaBean,

I am saying that it's good that we weren't all together since obviously be taught at a slower pace helped me and the faster kids still got to be challenged too. Fairness and diversity are great things but not at the expense of learning.

"Instead of asking the schools to be all things for all kids, parents need to identify the special attention their kids need and provide it: whether it's exposure to diverse people, extra tutoring for a subject the child is falling behind in, or extra stimulation for gifted kids."

Gypsy, the problem is that even if parents are doing what they can, without these programs you still have kids stuck in a classroom for 7 hours a day doing work that is not on their level. A kid who should be doing 6th grade work who is stuck doing 3rd grade work is still going to be bored out of his mind all day, no matter what extracurriculars his parents are providing.

"Fairness and diversity are great things but not at the expense of learning."

Sunflower, you're still assuming that fairness and learning are exclusive to each other based on...I'm not sure what, exactly. There are more fair and less fair ways of implementing G&T programs; discrimination based on race and class are still real, live problems in our society. It's great that you moved from the slow class to the honors class; that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still think about whether the system is to work well for all students.

"the self-appointed grammarian. These are the people who".

Talk about repelling, why would I take advice from a source that misuses a reference agreement?

""the Superintendent and his PTA minions have the gaul to cry that they are being short changed."

Cheeky, they have the gaul? Where are they keeping him? The Fairfax Bastille?

Posted by: 06902 | December 14, 2009 12:37 PM | Report abuse "

Since TheRealTruth hasn't popped up yet, I'd like to nominate THIS for post of the day. Fairfax Bastille - BWAAAH!

TheRealTruth scrolled with much trepidation today, fearing the worst…yet TheRealTruth is pleased to read the only strife was from a pair who are hilariously intolerant of misspellings. Many excellent posts today (whether they were spelled correctly or not). Upon careful thought, TheRealTruth is very happy to present today’s coveted Poster of the Day award to mkat2 for his/her thoughtful post. TheRealTruth is furthered delighted to report that all words in mkat’s post were spelled correctly.

**gasp**

TheRealTruth is uncertain as to which event causes more horror - the typo in the post of TheRealTruth or ArmyBrat1's nomination.

in my kid's school they don't call it gifted and talented - they call it the 'challenge' program. As if that would change what it was.

G & T? Hey, I am all for G & T. Make mine with Tanqueray London Dry, please.

I was lucky today. Work was crazy-busy, and this is the first time I've looked at today's topic.

Having read everyone's posts, with one kid in Spec. Ed. and the other in our district's GATE program, our family lives in the most diverse city (Oakland) in the most diverse county (Alameda) in the nine-county "Bay Area" - which is the most diverse region in the state. And CA is the most diverse state in the US - which is the most diverse country in the world.

Whew! My kids are getting diversity *and* education suited to their differing needs. It doesn't have to be either diversity or appropriate education. It's possible to have both in the same classroom at the same time.

Gaul = Gall, not Charles De Gaulle either

Baffoon = Buffoon, not a balloon, most of the time I prefer buffoonery

Does anyone else find TheRealTruth's habit of referring to him/herself in the third person disturbing?

Oh, I don't know. I occasionally refer to the Blade's household and Cillizza uses the royal we with frequency. I'm fond of the self-aggrandizing post and am occasionally guilty of it myself.

Regards,

The Fairlington Blade

"Gifted and Talented" programs are inherently unfair. If a person already has the advantage of greater intelligence, why does it make sense for a public school system to reward those with this advantage by providing further advantages? It is the kids who are not "gifted" with the ability to do well in school that might be helped most by the smaller class sizes, field trips, and innovative teaching techniques that so many districts reserve for these programs. I don't blame the parents who push for their kids to get into these programs, but the resources need to be distributed fairly, not just to people deemed inherently superior, and therefore deserving, or whose parents have the time, resources, and knowledge to kick up a fuss. How about smaller classes and better teachers for everyone, not just a special few?

rh36, the GT programs where I live don't have smaller classes, extra field trips, etc. They just do different work and move at an accelerated pace.

rh36 said:
>>"Gifted and Talented" programs are inherently unfair. If a person already has the advantage of greater intelligence, why does it make sense for a public school system to reward those with this advantage by providing further advantages?>>

What does rh36 think the purpose of public education is? Is it to spread out the pain so that all students are equally deprived of true learning opportunities?

Trying to solve the problems of racial disparity by diluting bright kids' educational opportunities is no solution at all.

Truly bright students need to experience the joy of being intellectually challenged and they need to maintain a passion for learning that will get them to college and beyond.

These children deserve an education that is appropriate to their level of ability as much as children of average or below-average cognitive ability do. And society needs highly capable students to be well educated, or where will our next generation of "gifted and talented" scientists and researchers come from? They wouldn't come from rh36's school district, because that would be rewarding them for the gift of being bright and we can't have that.

i guess the alternative is to make everyone feel awful - make the 'smart' kids miserable because they are bored, make the 'average' kids miserable because they can't do the work as well as the 'smart' kids. Great.

Oh, and maybe just existing my kids are diverse, given we are not the majority religion.

Our school district has struggled with this issue. It is a majority black district that had majority white G&T programs. The administration decided to rectify this by an aggressive program to identify gifted minority children who had previously been overlooked. They are using some different tests as many of the tests have been shown to be biased against minority low SES kids.

They also identify children in middle and high school who appear capable of more difficult coursework. Parents can get their children placed in honors courses, but they have to sign a waiver acknowledging that this was not the recommended placement.

I think we need more not less G&T programming. Many G&T kids who are not in challenging classes become behavioral problems. (Ironically this happens frequently with unidentified minority G&T kids)

These kids are our future. Academic tracking benefits children at each end of the scale. Kids who are tracked make greater gains than those who are not. This holds true at the low, medium and high levels.

I believe that the primary purpose of PUBLIC education is to provide an education for those who would not otherwise receive one. After all, parents that have the means and inclination would send their children to private schools even if there were no public schools available. It is not to "spread out the pain," or "deprive" ANYONE. Every child deserves the best opportunities we, as a society, can provide, no matter what skills or abilities he or she has already. If we are not directing enough resources toward maximizing the opportunities available to each child, regardless of ability, then extracting a select few, by any criteria whatsoever, to provide better opportunities is simply unfair. When the children selected are almost universally the children of the most powerful members of society (wealthier, better educated, having political clout or connections, etc.) the problems of the rest of the educational system are largely ignored -- the only people with the power to do anything about the system no longer care, since their children are receiving a higher level of services.
With careful lesson planning, a wide range of skill levels may be challenged in the same classroom, without unfair distribution of resources to the group of people that is already the most likely to succeed.
And all kids are our future, not just the "smart" ones.

Interesting about your school district, wannabeanon. I think it might be beneficial if there were more gateways to the gifted and talented programs. So many districts test the kids once, in 2nd or 4th grade, then assume the student remains gifted and talented through high school. These are the kids encouraged/allowed to take the honors and AP courses, while all others are discouraged and have to fight the principal to get in to a class. Kids all develop differently: some may appear ahead when they are 8 or 10, but have been caught by the rest of the student body when they are 15. Others may appear behind when first tested, and then surge ahead later... So why not keep the opportunities open?

Of course, the political problem is that no parent ever wants to hear that their child who was gifted from 2nd through 6th grade now seems average, and needs to leave the GT program to make way for someone else.

I suspect that some of you who are disparaging the idea of diversity in the G&T programs have never had to fight a school system to get your bright kid into an advanced class. It is amazingly difficult to open Administrative minds to the possibility that someone who didn't pass a screening test in 2nd grade might be capable of challenging work in 9th grade.

Hello. I think this is my first post.

I agree that diversity enhances our education and broadens our minds but I do not think we need diversity for its own sake in EVERY aspect of education.

Gifted programs are about challenging kids who aren't being challenged elsewhere. Let's not lose site of the purpose of a program just to fill another need. All programs need not be all things to all kids.

Oh, good idea. Let's have "diverse" classrooms, because the most important thing "our" children can learn in school is how to get along with others of different ethnic backgrounds.

In places like Singapore and Hong Kong, of course, they think the most important things their children can learn in school is how to find the roots of a transcendental equations and what the chemical formula for ribose is.

That's why their children will be engineers and scientists at "American" companies and yours will be lucky to land a job cleaning out the mice's cages in the labs. At least they'll be comfortable cleaning the cages of all different colors of mice.